[INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Thu Nov 19 15:03:44 UTC 2020

Dr.Brendan Gillon,I apologise for the inadvertant mis-posting a short while back.It might have happened due a technical snag.
However, I  am in complete agreement with your opinion that 50 years hence, the concept of" physical" may also include the idea of "mental" as well.Being a student of Indian Philosophy,I find reflection of your above ,in the philosophy preached by Patanjali,the ancient Indian sage-philosopher in his "Yog-Sutra", which is also the practical demonstration of Samkhya philosophy.Patanjali spoke of" Vritti". Vritti can be defined as the modifications of our mind.The knowledge about the empirical and physical world around develops from our Mind.Our mind, when facing an object in front, goes out through our senses, meets the object, and ramifies/modifies itself in accordance with the shape of the object.Thus, being aided by the "Vritti"s(modifications), our Mind moulds itself according to the shape of the physical object it has in front, culminating finally in our empirical knowledge.So, from antiquity,Yog Sutra shows the way as to how our physical world is basically "mental"I can recall a line from a poem written by Tagore, the 19th-century Indian poet-philospher,which says-"It is in my conscience whereThe Emerald is green,  My conscience sees the Ruby turning Red"
Alakendu Das .
Sent from RediffmailNG on Android

From: "Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:22:16 GMT+0530
To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>,  Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>,  Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

I would like to add my two cents, for what it is worth, to this interesting question. I agree with Dean Anderson that existing conceptions of the physical might prejudice how the view that there is rebirth can be empirically tested. But it is also useful to
 bear in mind that what is taken to be physical and material has changed over time. The void, for example, which is the antithesis of the material,
in at least one acceptation of the word, was ruled out as an impossibility by Aristotelians, and Cartesians, eventually being adopted as part of mainstream science. Moreover, no one's conception
of the physical in the 16th century would have included radiation as it was conceived of in the 19th century by Faraday and Maxwell; and though it is physical, it is not material. It could very well be that 50 years from now our conception of the physical
 might include what we now refer to as the mental. In short, it could turn out that, if the question is treated empirically, the answer might end up altering what it is that we count as physical
and material. 

Best wishes,

Brendan

Brendan S. Gillon                            email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca

Department of Linguistics

McGill University                             tel.:  001 514 398 4868 

1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield

Montreal, Quebec                           fax.:  001 514 398 7088 

H3A 1A7  CANADA

webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>

Sent: November 18, 2020 10:24 PM

To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>; Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>

Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>

Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That means there should be some falsifiable criteria
 available for testing conjectures.

My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend
 to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.

As you rightly pointed out, Dominik, this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.

There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.

I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.

Best,

Dean

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 8:38:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense".  First, let's get rid of "western".  Everybody does science and has done for a couple
 of centuries, so it's been global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a statement about historical origins.  Moving on, the idea of equating reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about pramāṇas, I think.  In his
 famous essay, ‘The Purpose of Philosophy’, Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer them.  Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g., mathematics or chess).  But the third category is questions about
 which we are uncertain about how to answer them.  Those are philosophical questions (I would say, metaphysical questions).   So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather
 than as a formal or philosophical one.  That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.

Best,

Dominik

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:
In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic'
 in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).
If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting
 research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree
 of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:

Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,  
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli

Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist  
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it  
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do  
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as  
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> 
https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> 
https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with  
> rebirth as well:
> 
https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'études, émérite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of 

> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall 

> <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> Cc: 
indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a  
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David 

> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or 

> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson  
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell  
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text  
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time  
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on  
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual  
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or  
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the  
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall  
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's  
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,  
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness  
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> 

> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as  
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich  
> Koch via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> 

> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,  
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (Āyuḥparyantasūtra)  a  
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-Śloka) connects  
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If  
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also  
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature  
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete Āyuḥparyantasūtra. If you can read  
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the  
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to  
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead  
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibhaṅga-sutta  
> (MN III 207–15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan  
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of  
> both the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda refers to the following  
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a  
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (āsanna)
> habitual (āciṇṇa/abhyasta)
> something previously done (kaṭattākamma/pūrvakṛta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601–602 (XIX.14–16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,  
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ‘weighty' in this  
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience  
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you  
> haven’t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something  
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will  
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on  
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual  
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life  
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The  
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the  
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus  
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from  
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: 
Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> 

> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic  
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,  
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as  
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random  
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is  
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other  
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
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> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> 
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>
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> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut für Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
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04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148

-- 

James Hartzell, PhD 
(2x) 

Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain

Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy

Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

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