[INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Tue Nov 17 17:48:33 UTC 2020

Great, thanks Amy! (and David!)
Forwarding here to the Indology list for further comment and to answer
Dean's question.
Spain back in mostly lockdown, otherwise just fine

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:40 PM Amy Langenberg <langenap at eckerd.edu> wrote:

> Hello all! There are several different versions of that text, titled
> variously, and the section about rebirth quotes or paraphrases various
> abhidharma traditions. My best advice is to look at Robert Kritzer's
> edition of the Garbhāvakrānti-sūtra and my study of that tradition.
>
> Robert Kritzer. Garbhāvakrāntisūtra: The Sūtra on Entry into the Womb.
> Studia Philologica Buddhica 31.
>
> Tokyo: The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 2014.
>
>
> Amy Paris Langenberg. Birth in Buddhism: The Suffering Fetus and Female
> Freedom. Critical Studies in Buddhism.
>
> Abingdon-on-Thames: Routledge Press, 2017.
>
>
> The following is also useful:
>
>
> Robert Kritzer. “Garbhāvakrāntau (‘In the Garbhāvakrānti’): Quotations
> from the Garbhāvakrāntisūtra in
>
> Abhidharma Literature and the Yogācārabhūmi.” In The Yogācārabhūmi and the
> Yogācāras,
>
> edited by Ulrich Timme Kragh, 738–71. Cambridge: Harvard University,
> Department of Sanskrit
>
> and Indian Studies, 2013.
>
>
> Hope you all are doing okay, despite global pandemic and political chaos!
>
>
> Amy
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:18 PM David Gray <dgray at scu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jim,
>>
>> I'm almost positive that this was one of the text's we were reading on
>> Amy's behalf, maybe the *Ananda Entering the Womb Sutra *or a Tibetan
>> medical text. I suspect that Amy may be able to give you a better answer,
>> so I have copied her.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> David
>>
>> David B. Gray
>> Bernard J. Hanley Professor
>> Chair, Religious Studies Dept.
>> Santa Clara University
>> 500 El Camino Real
>> Santa Clara, CA 95053
>> Phone: 408-554-4343
>> Fax: 408-554-2387
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:49 AM James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No, I don't.
>>> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
>>> @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <
>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks James.
>>>>
>>>> Do you happen to remember the title?
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <
>>>> james.hartzell at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Dean
>>>>
>>>> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with
>>>> Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might
>>>> remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with
>>>> the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new
>>>> mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as
>>>> a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual
>>>> appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the
>>>> incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home
>>>> selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a
>>>> certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to
>>>> your question.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
>>>> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>>>>
>>>> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all
>>>> recommended.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch
>>>> via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dean,
>>>> another aspect may be helpful:
>>>>
>>>> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I
>>>> see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (Āyuḥparyantasūtra)  a
>>>> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-Śloka) connects specific
>>>> actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
>>>> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he
>>>> is a robber in hell 8 etc.
>>>> This description is adapted in several later works and found also his
>>>> way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still
>>>> observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>>>>
>>>> I did not translate the complete Āyuḥparyantasūtra. If you can read
>>>> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of
>>>> your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Heiner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dean,
>>>>
>>>> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>>>>
>>>> The idea that good karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to
>>>> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to
>>>> unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibhaṅga-sutta (MN
>>>> III 207–15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).
>>>>
>>>> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both
>>>> the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda refers to the following categories of karman
>>>> in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions
>>>> might determine rebirth:
>>>>
>>>> weighty (garuka/guru)
>>>> near to death (āsanna)
>>>> habitual (āciṇṇa/abhyasta)
>>>> something previously done (kaṭattākamma/pūrvakṛta)
>>>>
>>>> See e.g. Vism 601–602 (XIX.14–16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan)
>>>> 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, if you have done something really ‘weighty' in this
>>>> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the
>>>> unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven’t done
>>>> anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the
>>>> time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play
>>>> (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to
>>>> near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past
>>>> action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come
>>>> into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand
>>>> the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from
>>>> the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the
>>>> perspective of a buddha it is not.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Rupert
>>>> --
>>>> *Rupert Gethin*
>>>> Professor of Buddhist Studies
>>>> University of Bristol
>>>>
>>>> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>>>>
>>>> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>>>>
>>>> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
>>>> process based on past karma.
>>>>
>>>> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
>>>> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
>>>> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
>>>> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so
>>>> strictly deterministic.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
>>>> idea ?
>>>>
>>>> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
>>>> reincarnation-based religions?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dean Anderson
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Kochwww.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com__;!!MLMg-p0Z!RkVGKPXzFX8esz7JYLF6nTwzge3pYaczhW9UUqqQVeeh6F47HJ53o2uXZevNMA$>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>>>> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
>>>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>>>> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>>> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
>>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>>> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>>>
>>>

-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

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