From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 23:02:12 2020
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 20 18:02:12 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_meter?=
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o_zDr2ZOG8HakbnhxsrRkBp8gtty+X6CNTgi9up=XB2vQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Both these hymns have g?yatr? chanda? in the preamble where it lists ??i?,
devat?,chandas. But the metre of both these hymns is 4 feet of 8 syllables
each, and  Apte`s dictionary lists  g?yatr? metre as 4 feet of 6 syllables
each.  Can someone explain this.

 https://stotranidhi.com/en/sri-gayatri-kavacham-in-english/

https://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_devii/indramahaalaxmiikavach.pdf

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de  Mon Nov  2 14:30:42 2020
From: s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de (Shervin Farridnejad)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 20 15:30:42 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help for identification of two Scripts
In-Reply-To: <CANS3gumdjsF99ujYKvxYOuPnvTX=L1cfY7mSeq2wfVujs73Ufw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <898A1E07-52A0-4D6B-BD79-547D844C641B@fu-berlin.de>

Dear list members,
Dear colleagues,

I hope this message finds you in good health. I am working on a Jewish manuscript, entirely in Hebrew script, which contains some notes at the end in Persian and these two ?Indian? scripts as well, with possible historical connection to Punjab. I hoped that someone here would be able to help me to identify the two scripts and eventually help me to read these two short notes.  

Thank you and best wishes from Berlin,

Shervin Farridnejad


------------------------------------------------
Dr. Shervin Farridnejad
Associate Research Scholar
Institute of Iranian Studies 
Department of History and Cultural Studies
Freie Universit?t Berlin
Fabeckstr. 23-25 (Room 1.1023)
D - 14195 Berlin
s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de <mailto:s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de>
------------------------------------------------



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From s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de  Mon Nov  2 14:36:09 2020
From: s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de (Shervin Farridnejad)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 20 15:36:09 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help for identification of two Scripts
In-Reply-To: <898A1E07-52A0-4D6B-BD79-547D844C641B@fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <A84FA674-93CE-4441-AE19-994B294E6263@fu-berlin.de>

Dear list members,

 Apologies for cross-posting, apparently the image wasn?t properly attached.

Best wishes,

Shervin Farridnejad

???????????????????????????????????????


> Am 02.11.2020 um 15:30 schrieb Shervin Farridnejad via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
> 
> Dear list members,
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> I hope this message finds you in good health. I am working on a Jewish manuscript, entirely in Hebrew script, which contains some notes at the end in Persian and these two ?Indian? scripts as well, with possible historical connection to Punjab. I hoped that someone here would be able to help me to identify the two scripts and eventually help me to read these two short notes.  
> 
> Thank you and best wishes from Berlin,
> 
> Shervin Farridnejad
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Shervin Farridnejad
> Associate Research Scholar
> Institute of Iranian Studies 
> Department of History and Cultural Studies
> Freie Universit?t Berlin
> Fabeckstr. 23-25 (Room 1.1023)
> D - 14195 Berlin
> s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de <mailto:s.farridnejad at fu-berlin.de>
> ------------------------------------------------
> 






> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





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From hegartyjm at googlemail.com  Mon Nov  2 14:48:31 2020
From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 20 14:48:31 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Thank You
Message-ID: <719DA402-FB5A-4956-A840-A4B8873B9397@googlemail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I just wanted to extend my thanks to everyone that wrote to myself and Simon to share their memories of Will Johnson or simply to pass on their condolences. I passed the tributes to Will?s wife, who was very touched by them all.

My Best Wishes,

James




From christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at  Tue Nov  3 05:33:28 2020
From: christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at (Christian Ferstl)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 20 06:33:28 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] IIGRS 12, Call for Papers
In-Reply-To: <ef83f3cb3ae775de0692218f9e139479@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <462831f5530cecf6cd1267e76e2d4764@univie.ac.at>

Dear List Members,
dear doctorate students and young graduate scholars of Indology,

Please note that the deadline for the sbmission of abstracts is
the end of January 2021, not 2020, of course. We are sorry for this 
mistake in the CfP.
So, if you wish to present a paper at IIGRS 12 please submit a 300-word 
abstract to iigrsuk at googlemail.com by
31st of January 2021. You will be notified about the outcome of your 
application in mid-February.

Best wishes
Christian Ferstl
University of Vienna

Am 30.10.2020 16:18, schrieb Christian Ferstl:
> To doctorate students and young graduate scholars of Indology
> 
> The 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 12)
> will be held in Vienna, Austria, from July 22nd to 24th 2021. It is
> funded and organised by the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and
> Buddhist Studies (Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde,
> ISTB) of the University of Vienna in collaboration with the Institute
> for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia (Institut f?r
> Kultur- und Geistesgeschichte Asiens, IKGA) of the Austrian Academy of
> Sciences.
> 
> The conveners of the Symposium invite you to submit proposals for a
> presentation of approximately 20 minutes. Please see the full call for
> papers in the attachment.
> 
> Let us also point out that the 26th European Conference on South Asian
> Studies (ECSAS 2021) will be held just after IIGRS 12 in Vienna, 26 ?
> 29 July 2021. This will provide a convenient opportunity especially
> for young scholars to meet students and specialists of various fields
> of Indology. For more information on this conference visit
> https://ecsas2021.univie.ac.at/.
> 
> Further links:
> https://iigrs.wordpress.com/
> https://stb.univie.ac.at/
> https://www.oeaw.ac.at/ikga
> 
> 
> Christian Ferstl
> University of Vienna





From cristina.pecchia at oeaw.ac.at  Tue Nov  3 15:22:43 2020
From: cristina.pecchia at oeaw.ac.at (cristina pecchia)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 20 16:22:43 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_publication:_M=C4=81rga._Paths_to_Liberation_in_South_Asian_Buddhist_Traditions?=
Message-ID: <b0ed832a-afdd-f3ec-faf4-490faa6b0193@oeaw.ac.at>

Dear colleagues,
It is our pleasure to announce the publication of the volume /M?rga. 
Paths to Liberation in South Asian Buddhist Traditions./ Papers from an 
international symposium held at the Austrian Academy of Sciences, 
Vienna, December 17?18, 2015, edited by Cristina Pecchia and Vincent 
Eltschinger. Austrian Academy of Sciences Press, Vienna 2020. Pages vi, 426.

Please find below a table of contents.
Further details are available at the publisher's website: 
https://austriaca.at/8549-9?frames=yes

With best wishes,
Cristina Pecchia

-- * Dr Cristina Pecchia Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual 
History of Asia (IKGA) Austrian Academy of Sciences (OEAW) FWF Austrian 
Science Fund Hollandstrasse 11-13 | 1020 Vienna, AUSTRIA ikga.oeaw.ac.at 
| fwf.ac.at *   



>
> Contents

> Foreword 1

> Rupert Gethin
> Schemes of the Buddhist Path in the Nik?yas and ?gamas 5

> Naomi Appleton
> The Story of the Path: Indian J?taka Literature and the Way to 
> Buddhahood 79

> Vincent Eltschinger
> The ?dhy?na-Master? A?vagho?a on the Path, Mindfulness, and 
> Concentration 99

> Vincent Tournier
> Stairway to Heaven and the Path to Buddhahood: Donors and Their 
> Aspirations in Fifth- and Sixth-Century Ajanta 177

> Nobuyoshi Yamabe
> ?layavij??na in a Meditative Context 249

> Daniel M.Stuart
> Map Becomes Territory: Knowledge and Modes of Existence in Middle 
> Period Buddhist Meditation Practice 277

> Malcolm David Eckel
> The Poetics of the Path: Bh?viveka?s Tattv?m?t?vat?ra (?Introduction 
> to the Ambrosia of Reality?) 303

> Jowita Kramer
> Concepts of the Spiritual Path in the *S?tr?la?k?rav?ttibh??ya (Part 
> II): The Eighteen manask?ras and the adhimukticary?bh?mi 329

> P?ter-D?niel Sz?nt?
> The Road Not to Be Taken: An Introduction to Two Ninth-Century Works 
> Against Buddhist Antinomian Practice 363

> Anna Filigenzi
> Visual Embodiments of the Buddhist m?rga: Space, Place and Artistry in 
> Ancient Swat/U??iy?na 381

> Index 415
>





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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 20:07:12 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 20 21:07:12 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Demise_of_Professor_Fran=C3=A7ois_Chenet?=
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBR3v96-dj0x7XorgdVAUqL5yG8Hm7W_znAEFfWV_fDOw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

With great sadness I transmit the news of the entirely unanticipated demise
of our colleague Fran?ois Chenet, holder of the Chair of Indian and
Comparative Philosophy at Paris-Sorbonne University (formerly "Paris IV"),
noticed on 27 October 2020.

What Professor Chenet recently wrote to me in a different context gets now
another dimension of meaning :

"Chacun sait que la grande Roue du Temps cosmique (k?lacakra) tourne
inexorablement, roue dans laquelle s?engr?ne toute destin?e individuelle."

Condolences to his family, friends, colleagues, students.

Jan Houben

See below the statements of the Faculty of Philosophy of Paris-Sorbonne
University and of the French list of Indian studies "VeillEUR" :



L?UFR de philosophie a la grande tristesse de faire part du d?c?s, constat?
le 27 octobre, du professeur Fran?ois Chenet, titulaire de la chaire de
Philosophie indienne et compar?e. N? en 1955, ancien ?l?ve de l?ENS (L 73),
dipl?m? de l?IEP, agr?g? de philosophie, Fran?ois Chenet effectua la plus
grande partie de sa carri?re ? la Sorbonne ? comme professeur agr?g?
(1987), Ma?tre de conf?rences (1989), enfin Professeur (1999). Apr?s des
travaux sur l?id?alisme allemand et Nietzsche, r?f?rences auxquelles il
conserva toujours une profonde fid?lit?, c?est ? la pens?e indienne qu?il
consacra toutes ses recherches. Elles ont d?abord trouv? leur centre de
gravit? du c?t? des doctrines brahmaniques ? non-dualistes ? du *Ved?nta*.
Puis, dans le sillage de Michel Hulin, il consacra sa th?se d??tat au
*Yoga-V?si??ha*, vaste texte ? la fois narratif et didactique, reprenant
nombre de th?mes de l?id?alisme bouddhique (*Vij??v?da*) dans un cadre
globalement brahmanique ; son ?uvre la plus importante dans le domaine
indianiste est certainement la version remani?e de cette th?se, publi?e en
1998, *Psychogen?se et cosmogonie selon le Yoga-V?si??ha* : *le monde est
dans l??me*, qui comporte de longs d?veloppements sur le destin ou la
m?taphore du monde comme th??tre. Il s'est finalement orient? vers le
?iva?sme du Cachemire, tout en continuant ? manifester un int?r?t constant
pour la r?sonance des philosophies indiennes dans la culture europ?enne
(notamment germanique), comme le montre le volume des *Cahiers de l?Herne*
qu?il avait dirig? sous le titre *Nirv??a* (1993). Dans les derni?res
ann?es de sa vie, il ?tait fascin? par les id?es de Destin et
d?auto-cr?ation ou de participation de l'?me au principe cr?ateur. Fran?ois
Chenet, indianiste de grande r?putation, laissera l?image d?un homme
r?serv?, jouissant d?une grande estime aupr?s de ses coll?gues, tr?s
appr?ci? des ?tudiant.e.s, capable de susciter enthousiasme et vocation
dans sa discipline. Il illustra avec succ?s la tradition des ?tudes
indiennes ? la Sorbonne, commenc?e avec Olivier Lacombe, poursuivie par Guy
Bugault et Michel Hulin, qui fut son pr?d?cesseur imm?diat dans sa chaire.
? Les obs?ques de Fran?ois Chenet auront lieu le mercredi 4 novembre 2020 ?
15h au cr?matorium de Champigny-sur-Marne, dans la stricte intimit?
familiale et selon les r?gles de confinement actuellement en vigueur.


*** *** ***


*Compl?ment par Paul Paumier ("le VeillEUR") :*

Le 19/12/2013
Philosophies indiennes (4/4) : Le yoga, une discipline de l?esprit ?
FRANCE CULTURE, Les chemins de la philosophie, 19/12/2013

...

Philosophie de l?Inde, quatri?me et derni?re ?tape.

Apr?s les Upanishads, lundi dernier, pr?sent? par Michel Hulin, la
Bhagavad-Gita, mardi, en compagnie de Marc Ballanfat, et Bouddha, hier,
gr?ce ? Pierre Sylvain Filliozat, nous avons le plaisir d?accueillir
aujourd?hui *Fran?ois Chenet* , dont la synth?se sur la philosophie
indienne chez Armand Colin nous a accompagn? toute cette semaine, pour
?voquer le yoga, des Upanishads ? la pratique, jusqu?au yoga int?gral de
Shri Aurobindo.
[image: Fran?ois Chenet]Fran?ois Chenet? Cr?dits : *MC* - *Radio France*

...
Intervenants

   - Fran?ois Chenet <https://www.franceculture.fr/personne-francois-chenet>
   professeur de philosophie compar?e et de philosophie indienne ?
   l'universit? Paris-Sorbonne

https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/les-nouveaux-chemins-de-la-connaissance/philosophies-indiennes-44-le-yoga-une-discipline

Th?ses soutenue, encadr?es et ?valu?es par Fran?ois CHENET
https://www.theses.fr/052451283

DATA BNF : https://data.bnf.fr/fr/12950287/francois_chenet/

NOTICE IDREF : https://www.idref.fr/052451283

51 r?f?rences dans le SUDOC : http://www.sudoc.abes.fr/cbs/

34 r?f?rences dans le catalogue de la BNF :
https://catalogue.bnf.fr/rechercher.do?index=AUT3&numNotice=12950287&typeNotice=p


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 19:32:01 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 20 12:32:01 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatiya Itihasa Samshodhak Mandal, Pune
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeX=WG29BTzv0Y1Wuw3QOY+csCisD_DGyekgYausF72bQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is anyone in Pune and likely to visit the BISM any time?  Or do you have
contact details for the BISM?  I am interested in a manuscript that may be
there, but I don't know whom to write to or how to request a copy or
photograph.

The details of the MS are given at PanditProject
<https://www.panditproject.org/entity/108197/work>.

Many thanks,
Dominik
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk
<https://apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/wujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.


South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca


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From szantopeterdaniel at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 08:35:40 2020
From: szantopeterdaniel at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?UMOpdGVyLUTDoW5pZWwgU3rDoW50w7M=?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 10:35:40 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_pdf_request:_Tarkabh=C4=81=E1=B9=A3=C4=81_(Giri,_1969)?=
Message-ID: <CANS3guk+qT5QtciU-vh7yZoPjC4VvQPOJK904M4yhyNULj-Q3g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Does anyone have a pdf of Raghunath Giri's 1969 edition of the Tarkabh???
of Mok??karagupta? I'd be very grateful. I see that Hathi trust has a
search-only version: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009465596

Best wishes,
Peter Szanto


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From vitus.angermeier at univie.ac.at  Thu Nov  5 09:52:35 2020
From: vitus.angermeier at univie.ac.at (Vitus Angermeier)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 10:52:35 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Book_announcement:_Regenzeiten,_Feuchtgebiete,_K=C3=B6rpers=C3=A4fte?=
Message-ID: <ff480909-f241-78f5-f2fd-9fe40ee9d438@univie.ac.at>

Dear members of Indology,

I would like to inform you that my monograph "Regenzeiten, 
Feuchtgebiete, K?rpers?fte. Das Wasser in der klassischen indischen 
Medizin" was recently published by the Austrian Academy of Sciences 
Press: https://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/regenzeiten-feuchtgebiete-koerpersaefte

The Open Access version is directly available at 
https://austriaca.at/9783700188261

Best wishes,
Vitus Angermeier

-- 

Dr. Vitus Angermeier
Friedmanngasse 1/B/8
A-1160 Wien
Austria

ORC?D: 0000-0002-8505-6112
? on Academia.edu <https://univie.academia.edu/VitusAngermeier>
? Personal Website <https://homepage.univie.ac.at/vitus.angermeier/>



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 15:00:34 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 08:00:34 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatiya Itihasa Samshodhak Mandal, Pune
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeX=WG29BTzv0Y1Wuw3QOY+csCisD_DGyekgYausF72bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cey_aAmO=_EmjRPnDd1BNdN3HzsXbtZUcq2CuyVpNoyKg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends,

Several people have suggested that I contact Prof. Shrikant Bahulkar, and
Prof. Bahulkar is now kindly helping me.

Best wishes to everyone during this second wave.

Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk
<https://apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/wujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.


South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca

SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project <http://sushrutaproject.org>

>


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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Thu Nov  5 16:25:16 2020
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 17:25:16 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New book publication: In the Footprints of the Masters
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBR3v96-dj0x7XorgdVAUqL5yG8Hm7W_znAEFfWV_fDOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CDC1137-4FDA-49E6-B6C0-FA5A17F045F9@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

I am delighted to inform you about a new edited book of mine, which focuses on representations of feet, footprints and shoes in Asian, Islamic and Mediterranean art. This has just been published by EB-Verlag in Berlin. It is part of the series 'Studies in Asian Art and Culture' (SAAC). The hard cover book has 956 pages and 420 colour illustrations  (price: EURO 139,-). Please see a brief summary, the table of contents as well as information on how to order the book below. Via the link at the bottom of the mail you can access a flyer introducing the 7 publications on Asian art, published in the SAAC series so far (Go via the SAAC homepage to ?Catalogue of the Published Volumes of the SAAC Series'). 

In the Footsteps of the Masters:

Footprints, Feet and Shoes as Objects of Veneration in Asian, Islamic and Mediterranean Art

 
 Julia A. B. Hegewald (ed.)

 
Book description

Footprints and depictions of feet are amongst the most prevalent religious imagery worldwide. In practically every culture or religion, honour is paid to the imprints or sculptures of feet or to the shoes associated with saintly teachers, enlightened beings or divinities.

This publication presents nineteen specialised chapters by leading international experts. The foot images and shoes studied range from the earliest preserved vestiges from the seventh to the fifth millennium BCE in North Africa to traces from Pharaonic Egypt and Classical Antiquity. Analyses of Hindu, Li?g?yat and Jaina usages and of Buddhist remnants from the earliest Asian beginnings in India via developments in Nepal, Tibet, Thailand and China to distinct expressions in Japan are complemented by chapters focusing on the Islamic world, drawing evidence from Egypt, Arabia and Pakistan and illustrating continuity in contemporary art works.
 
The foot images, which show a combination of iconic and symbolic forms, are striking in that they signify both absence and presence, creating a link between enlightened beings and humans.




Table of Contents

Preface

 
Foreword

 
Chapter 1

Introduction: Footprints, Sculpted Feet and Shoes in the Art of Asia and the Islamic and Mediterranean Worlds

Julia A. B. Hegewald

 
Chapter 2 

?Real Presence? in Liminal Areas: Images of Feet and Footprints in Third Millennium Egypt and their Prehistoric Precursors

Ludwig Morenz, David Sabel and Frank F?rster

 
Chapter 3

?Footprints? and Sculpted Feet: Enduring Marks of Human Presence and Divine Epiphany in Classical Antiquity

Ralf Krumeich 

 
Chapter 4

Wonderful Feet: From the Footprints of Christ to the Sandal of Saint Andrew

Gia Toussaint

 
Chapter 5

The Paradox of the Foot: Concurrence of Repugnance and Exaltation

Jutta Jain-Neubauer

 
Chapter 6

The Lotus Feet of ?r?n?thj?: Footprints of Hindu Deities in Indian Jewellery

Nick Barnard

 
Chapter 7

The Cult of Feet and Footwear in the Li?g?yat Tradition: Symbology and Peculiarities

Tiziana Lorenzetti

 
Chapter 8

Foot Stones and Footprints (P?duk?s): Multivariate Symbols in Jaina Religious Practice in India

Julia A. B. Hegewald

 
Chapter 9

Footprints in the Early Buddhist Art of India

Susan L. Huntington

 
Chapter 10

The Feet of Ma?ju?r? in the Kathmandu Valley

Gudrun B?hnemann

 
Chapter 11

Enlightened Presence: On the Representation of Footprints and Handprints on Tibetan Buddhist Painted Scrolls

Elisabeth Haderer

 
Chapter 12

Adam?s Peak, Samana?a Kanda, Civa?o?ip?ta Malai, ?r? P?daya: The Question of Being and Metaphysical Footprints on Footstools of Empty Thrones as Archaeological Finds from Sri Lanka

Oliver Kessler

 

Chapter 13 <>
Honouring the Buddha?s Feet at Wat Pho, Bangkok

Sarah Shaw

 

Chapter 14

The Buddha?s Footprints in China

Claudia Wenzel

 

Chapter 15
Tath?gata, Trace and Indexicality: Foot and Hand Prints in Japan

Ayelet Zohar

 

Chapter 16

Footprints and Sandals as Relics and Symbols of Veneration in Islamic Cultures

Lorenz Korn

 
Chapter 17

Relics of the Prophet Mu?ammad as Modes of Dissemination and Control During the Mamluk-Ottoman Transition in Egypt

Iman R. Abdulfattah

 

Chapter 18

The Holy Footprints Across Sindh, Pakistan

Waheeda Baloch

 

Chapter 19

Footprints in Works by Contemporary Muslim Artists

Karin Adrian von Roques

 

Glossary

 

List of Plates

 

Notes on Contributors

 

Index



The publication can be ordered worldwide via the EB-Publishers' shop:
- https://www.ebv-berlin.de/epages/15494902.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F15494902 <https://www.ebv-berlin.de/epages/15494902.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=/Shops/15494902> (for the English version)
- https://www.ebv-berlin.de/epages/15494902.sf/de_DE/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F15494902 <https://www.ebv-berlin.de/epages/15494902.sf/de_DE/?ViewObjectPath=/Shops/15494902> (for the German version)
- or by writing to the publishers: post at ebverlag.de <mailto:post at ebverlag.de>

- it is also available via Amazon.de <http://amazon.de/>: https://www.amazon.de/s?k=In+the+footprints+of+the+masters&i=stripbooks&__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss <https://www.amazon.de/s?k=In+the+footprints+of+the+masters&i=stripbooks&__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss>


To access the full catalogue of 7 publications in the series, please go to: https://www.ioa.uni-bonn.de/de/inst/aik/forschung/publikationen/studies-in-asian-art-and-culture <https://www.ioa.uni-bonn.de/de/inst/aik/forschung/publikationen/studies-in-asian-art-and-culture>
and click onto the blue link: ?Catalogue of the Published Volumes of the SAAC Series'


Kind regards,

Julia (Hegewald).



Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042





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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 17:30:27 2020
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 18:30:27 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_K_R_(Roy)_Norman_1925=E2=80=932020?=
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4JvgsNRk=bMAfbcN-BSU9sJsE61rjnqXqp1XSca8z4byQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

I am very sorry to share with you the news that K R (Kenneth Roy) Norman
passed away this morning. I have no further information, and I am not the
one who should offer remembrances, but I am sure they will be forthcoming.

Jonathan Silk
-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk  Thu Nov  5 17:35:38 2020
From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 17:35:38 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] K.R. Norman
Message-ID: <20C065F9-41F8-4248-A5F7-9A620E5FAB91@bristol.ac.uk>

Dear Colleagues,

I write with the sad news of the death of K.R. Norman, who died this morning at the age of 95.

Roy or Mr Norman, as he liked to be known, was one of the great scholars of Middle Indo-Aryan philology. His academic career was spent almost entirely in Cambridge. He completed an MA at Cambridge in 1954 and went on to become Lecturer in Indian Studies (1954?1978), then Reader in Indian Studies (1978?1990), before being appointed Professor of Indian Studies in 1990, shortly before his retirement in 1992.

His scholarly contribution to the field of Pali studies has been immense, but his output covered also Jaina studies and the Ashokan inscriptions. His publications include translations of the major verse texts of the Pali canon: Elders? Verses I (Theraga?tha?), 1969; Elders? Verses II (Theri?ga?tha?), 1971; The Group of Discourses (Suttanipa?ta), 1992, 2nd ed. 2001; The Word of the Doctrine (Dhammapada), 1997; each of these translations includes meticulous philological annotations.

He also published two significant monographs, Pa?li Literature (1983) and A Philological Approach to Buddhism (1997; 2nd edition 2006), and leaves behind eight volumes of his Collected Papers (1990?2007). From 1981 to 1990 he was editor of A Critical Pa?li Dictionary, overseeing the publication of seven fascicles (11?17) of vol. II.

As well as being a Fellow of the British Academy and a Foreign Member of the Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters, he was the longest serving member of the Council of the Pali Text Society (1959?2010) and also served as its President (1981?1994)

It is safe to say that all those who work on ancient texts in middle Indian languages will remain deeply indebted to his work for a long time to come.

With best wishes,

Rupert Gethin
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies

University of Bristol
Department of Religion and Theology
3 Woodland Road
Bristol BS8 1TB, UK

Phone: +44 117 928 8169
Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>



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From ac2045 at cam.ac.uk  Thu Nov  5 17:59:03 2020
From: ac2045 at cam.ac.uk (Alessandro Ceccarelli)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 20 17:59:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Annual Allchin Symposium on South Asian Archaeology
Message-ID: <088cc280-3bfd-e063-4127-e519bc0ac131@cam.ac.uk>

Dear members of Indology,

I have recently joined the group. I am writing to invite you to the 
upcoming Annual Allchin Symposium on South Asian Archaeology, which will 
be held remotely?on Sunday 5th December 2020.

The primary focus of the event will be on the archaeology and art 
history of South Asia, though we will naturally be interested in papers 
that seek to put South Asia into a broader geographical context. More 
details and the Call for Papers are available at 
https://www.indiran.org/whats-on/allchin-symposium/ 
<https://www.indiran.org/whats-on/allchin-symposium/>

I would be extremely grateful if you could forward this event to any and 
all that you think might be interested. As mentioned on the webpage and 
in the Call for Papers, all abstract submissions and correspondence 
should be emailed to archaeologysouthasia at gmail.com 
<mailto:archaeologysouthasia at gmail.com>. *The Call for Papers is open 
until Sunday 8 November 2020*.

The event is also available on Facebook at https://fb.me/e/4kcSztEdM 
<https://fb.me/e/4kcSztEdM>.

Thank you very much.

With all best regards,

Dr Alessandro Ceccarelli

-- 
Dr Alessandro Ceccarelli, PhD (he/him)
Research Associate, Department of Archaeology, University of Cambridge
Volunteer, Fast-Track City Cardiff.

https://alessandroceccarelli.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alessandro-ceccarelli-385105a2/

While it suits me to email outside normal working hours, I do not expect a response outside your own.
***



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


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From christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at  Sun Nov  8 06:41:41 2020
From: christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at (Christian Ferstl)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 20 07:41:41 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Satya-Shodhanam, M.K. Gandhi's Autobiography in Sanskrit by Hosakere Nagappa Sastri
Message-ID: <1479a2659ff3e166be0b3a325d57ae70@univie.ac.at>

Dear List Members,

there is a remarkable translation of M.K. Gandhi's Autobiography into 
Sanskrit by Hosakere Nagappa Sastri, titled ??????????, that first 
appeared in 1965. Do you know of any reviews of the book or of any other 
reactions to it?

Thank you,
Christian Ferstl

University of Vienna





From spezialef at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  9 12:05:14 2020
From: spezialef at yahoo.com (Fabrizio Speziale)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 20 12:05:14 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Selected Papers, Punjab Police Department 1869
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cd3wGfsJ1B+qHPK2q8LuCp0UzUNqFJyuW4Vh5bvEvAC2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11316180.3624349.1604923514819@mail.yahoo.com>


Dear all,

?

does anyone know where I could find a copy of this document, online or in a library?

?

Selected Papers, Punjab Police Department, No. XVIII, 1869.

?

These papers are mentioned in Rose?s and Ibbetson?s works on Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and contain a description of the Rawals, a group of Muslim yogis.

?

Best wishes,

?

Fabrizio

?




FabrizioSpezialeDirecteurd??tudes - Professor?coledes Hautes ?tudes en Sciences SocialesCenterfor South Asian Studies54Boulevard Raspail75006,Paris??
http://www.perso-indica.net/https://ehess.academia.edu/FabrizioSpeziale



 


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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Mon Nov  9 14:50:24 2020
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 20 15:50:24 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_M=C4=81nasoll=C4=81sa_5.826cd-830ab?=
Message-ID: <0f271c368b829d7625175dc5a660562a@fabularasa.dk>

Dear list, 

I am trying to make sense of a description of a gameboard occuring in
the Kr???vi??ati section of the _M?nasoll?sa_ (5.826cd-830ab) dated to
c. 1131 CE. I am using Gondekar's critical edition from 1961 based on
three manuscripts (one of which was merely a copy of one of the other
two). No further manuscripts of the Kr???vi??ati section are available,
and as Gondekar writes in his introduction to the edition: "[a]s all the
three mss. are corrupt the constitution of the text became very
difficult" (ibid. ix). 

My own difficulties at present are mostly concerned with 5.828cd-829 on
the ornamentation of the gameboard, but I quote the description in full
below for context. While the variant readings offer little help,
Gondekar's generally convincing emendations appear in square brackets.
The translation is entirely my own. 

As a final note, it should be mentioned that the game in question
(called Pha?jik?) is reminiscent of the cruciform game of
_pacc?s?_/_caupa?_ which, however, is only attested from around 1500 CE.


--- 

_a???da???gula? k?rya? caturasra? tu ma??alam // 826_ 

A square diagram (measuring) eighteen _a?gula_s (on each side) should be
made. 

_t?d???ni caturdik?u bhastrak??i [bhadra?] prakalpayet /_ 

One should arrange such (18x18 _a?gula_) projections in the four
directions (from the diagram). [NB! This results in a cruciform shape
consisting of 5 squares of equal size]. 

_a?gul?-traya-madhye tu rekh? k?ry? samantata? // 827_ 

A line should be drawn from all sides between (each unit of) three
_a?gula_s. [NB! This results in each of the 5 squares being divided into
6x6 squares]. 

_tatas tv [try-]a?gula-vist?ra [???] k???? [ko?] sarve bhavanti ca /_ 

Thereupon, all the squares [catu?ko???] have a width of three _a?gula_s
(on every side). 

_ardha-candra-sam?k?ra? geha? pha?ji-vi??rada? // 828_ 

_pr?s?da? pa?kaja? v?pi kha??a-v?ha? sapak?i?am /_ 

_catur-bhadr??i sa?lekhyad dvidvy-eva? ca manoharam // 829_ 

One skilled in _pha?ji_(_k?_) should draw [sa?likhed? Breaks the metre!]
the _geha_ [i.e., the central square?] in the form of a half-moon [i.e.,
with semi-circles indicating the starting positions of the pawns?],
(and) the four _bhadra_s [i.e., the four projecting squares?] as a
palace, a lotus, or a tree [branch-carrier?] with a bird; and thus the
four (become) captivating. [NB! _dvidvy-eva?_ might also be emended to
_vidhy eva?_, rendering the last line as "and thus you should know (the
diagram) as captivating."]

_eva? ma??ala-viny?sa? kathita? pha?cik?-[?jik?-]vidai? /_ 

Thus the arrangement of the diagram is explained by those who know (the
game of) _pha?jik?_. 

--- 

I was thinking that someone experienced in reading texts concerning the
drawing of _ma??ala_s or similar might be able to offer some insights.
But, certainly, any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! 

Best regards, 

Jacob 

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen 

Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology 

Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies 

University of Copenhagen 

Denmark


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From rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org  Mon Nov  9 21:28:35 2020
From: rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 20 10:28:35 +1300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication -- Tsui, Chinese Calligraphy and Early Buddhist Manuscripts
Message-ID: <c252f8b67cb85236032b8b8602aae546e8ff40e3.camel@indica-et-buddhica.org>

Dear colleagues,


I am pleased to announce the publication of the following:


Tsui, Chung-hui ??? (2020) Chinese Calligraphy and Early Buddhist

Manuscripts. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica.


https://indica-et-buddhica.org/authors/publications/tsui-chunghui/chinese-calligraphy-and-early-buddhist-manuscripts


 


An open access PDF --replicating the hardcover-- is freely available

for download from Indica et Buddhica; it will also be available from

the National Library of New Zealand.


ISBN (hardcover): 978-0-473-54010-4 (8.5 x 11 in, colour, case

laminate, 180pp.)


ISBN (softcover): 978-0-473-54009-8 (8.5 x 11 in, colour, perfect

bound, 180pp.) forthcoming


ISBN (kindle): 978-0-473-54011-1 (kindle print replica) forthcoming


ISBN (pdf): 978-0-473-54012-8 (open access pdf)


 


The Author


Tsui Chung-hui ??? is an art historian teaching at the Centre of

Buddhist Studies in The University of Hong Kong; Tung Lin Lok Yuen

Scholar in Buddhist Art and Culture. She holds an M.A. in Chinese Art

and Arch?ology from SOAS, University of London, and a Ph.D. on

Dunhuang and Turfan Buddhist manuscripts from the Centre of Buddhist

Studies, The University of Hong Kong. Her research concerns Buddhist

art, the culture and history of Dunhuang and the Silk Road, Chinese

calligraphy, Buddhist manuscripts, Buddhist cave temples and cultural

heritage sites. In addition to textual research, Tsui has travelled

widely. She has conducted field research at Buddhist heritage sites in

India, Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, and

in many provinces in China. Tsui writes on Buddhist and Chinese art in

both English and Chinese.


 


With best regards,


Richard

-- 
T +6433121699  M +64210640216  E rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org
IM https://t.me/rmahoney  W https://indica-et-buddhica.org/


Indica et Buddhica  Littledene  Bay Road  Oxford  NZ





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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 19:25:00 2020
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 20 13:25:00 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CfA: Postdoctoral Fellowship in Sanskrit Poetics
Message-ID: <CAANHO15ds1j0ueBo_2swywptiLy4mRz=PgT-cHE02dcOTaFMMw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

On behalf of Yigal Bronner, I am forwarding the attached call for
applications for a two-year postdoctoral position, focusing on the
commentarial literature on Mamma?a?s *Light on Poetry *(*K?vyaprak??a*), at
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Note the Nov. 30 deadline.

Andrew


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 19:48:38 2020
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 20 20:48:38 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CfA: Postdoctoral Fellowship in Sanskrit Poetics
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO15ds1j0ueBo_2swywptiLy4mRz=PgT-cHE02dcOTaFMMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4Kjy9y5TVT202QDktAULEuXGoXoFRDmFZB9H1=ovyL7sg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Andrew,and through you to Yigal,
Thank you for this information, but I have a question/concern. Given the
*extremely* short deadline, and the fact that the successful candidate is
expected to start almost immediately thereafter, does not the Hebrew
University think it would only be fair to state clearly and honestly
whether in fact they already have an internal candidate for this position?
In fact I think this should be a moral imperative of every job search, but
that is besides the point: while putting together an application might be
possible so quickly, in a case like this, it is hard to imagine that a
person to whom this announcement comes out of blue would be able to pick up
and move (during Covid!) on such short notice, and therefore the
probability leaps immediately to mind that this is not an entirely open
advertisement.
Please advise.
Cordially,
Jonathan Silk

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:25 PM Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> On behalf of Yigal Bronner, I am forwarding the attached call for
> applications for a two-year postdoctoral position, focusing on the
> commentarial literature on Mamma?a?s *Light on Poetry *(*K?vyaprak??a*),
> at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Note the Nov. 30 deadline.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:31:31 2020
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 20 20:31:31 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CfA: Postdoctoral Fellowship in Sanskrit Poetics
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4Kjy9y5TVT202QDktAULEuXGoXoFRDmFZB9H1=ovyL7sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO17Nuojzxaj4GrVuc=-tLLjknBQxzL3f6RY-zFU-YNZ14w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

Just to be completely clear for the entire list: Yigal Bronner has
clarified that there is no "internal candidate," and that applications are
very much welcomed from anyone, anywhere, especially in light of the
specific set of skills involved in the project. If you are interested in
applying and have concerns about the start date, you can contact Professor
Bronner directly.

Thanks Jonathan for raising this concern.

Andrew

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Andrew,and through you to Yigal,
> Thank you for this information, but I have a question/concern. Given the
> *extremely* short deadline, and the fact that the successful candidate is
> expected to start almost immediately thereafter, does not the Hebrew
> University think it would only be fair to state clearly and honestly
> whether in fact they already have an internal candidate for this position?
> In fact I think this should be a moral imperative of every job search, but
> that is besides the point: while putting together an application might be
> possible so quickly, in a case like this, it is hard to imagine that a
> person to whom this announcement comes out of blue would be able to pick up
> and move (during Covid!) on such short notice, and therefore the
> probability leaps immediately to mind that this is not an entirely open
> advertisement.
> Please advise.
> Cordially,
> Jonathan Silk
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:25 PM Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> On behalf of Yigal Bronner, I am forwarding the attached call for
>> applications for a two-year postdoctoral position, focusing on the
>> commentarial literature on Mamma?a?s *Light on Poetry *(*K?vyaprak??a*),
>> at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Note the Nov. 30 deadline.
>>
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>


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From francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr  Wed Nov 11 16:59:43 2020
From: francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Patte?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 20 17:59:43 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] candravakiam
Message-ID: <8a6c8417-e07c-9f2d-0878-ce424d47718b@mi.parisdescartes.fr>

Bonjour,

Does someone know if there is somewhere an edition or, at least, some 
examples from this Vararuci's text.

On the internet, a lot of people talk about it, but no one gives an 
example of these vakia.

Thank you.
-- 
Fran?ois Patte
UFR de math?matiques et informatique
Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145
Universit? Paris Descartes
45, rue des Saints P?res
F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
FSF
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf
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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed Nov 11 17:47:07 2020
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 20 18:47:07 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] candravakiam
In-Reply-To: <8a6c8417-e07c-9f2d-0878-ce424d47718b@mi.parisdescartes.fr>
Message-ID: <F952B4AF-F09B-4619-9259-3C5329224C83@uclouvain.be>

These Candrav?kya-s or Vararuciv?kya-s were edited by C. Kunhan Raja, Adyar Library, 1948 (I do not find the item online)
see K. Kunjunni Raja, Astronomy and Mathematics in Kerala, ALB 1963 reprinted as Adyar Pamphlet Series no. 50, 1995, pp. 3-4,
K.V. Sarma, Kerala School of Astronomy, 1972, pp. 43, 56, 106, 116-117
https://archive.org/details/KeralaSchoolOfAstronomy/page/n57/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/KeralaSchoolOfAstronomy/page/n57/mode/2up>
and K.D. Swaminathan 1972
https://insa.nic.in/writereaddata/UpLoadedFiles/IJHS/Vol08_1and2_2_KDSwaminathan.pdf
+ the introduction of the Haricarita:
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.326212/page/n1/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.326212/page/n1/mode/2up>
and the article of P.-S. Filliozat "Math?matiques et scolastique dans l'Inde m?di?vale,
l'exemple du Haricarita de Parame?vara Bha??a" in DELIRE J.M., Astronomy and Mathematics in Ancient India ? Astronomie et Math?matiques de l?Inde Ancienne : Actes de la journ?e d??tudes organis?e le 24 avril 2009 ? l?Universit? Libre de Bruxelles, Leuven : Peeters Publishers, 2012, p. 77-86 (Lettres Orientales et Classiques 17).

> Le 11 nov. 2020 ? 17:59, Fran?ois Patte via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> 
> Bonjour,
> 
> Does someone know if there is somewhere an edition or, at least, some examples from this Vararuci's text.
> 
> On the internet, a lot of people talk about it, but no one gives an example of these vakia.
> 
> Thank you.
> -- 
> Fran?ois Patte
> UFR de math?matiques et informatique
> Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145
> Universit? Paris Descartes
> 45, rue des Saints P?res
> F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
> T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.math-info.univ-paris5.fr%2F~patte&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ca92705fd2b264e40ef4a08d8866350cb%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407108921512943%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&amp;sdata=elg5pbTkvbBPf9ovRfUjDl0CS9X5f40w%2FXOcAsyeYi8%3D&amp;reserved=0
> FSF
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsf.org%2Fblogs%2Fcommunity%2Fpresenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ca92705fd2b264e40ef4a08d8866350cb%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407108921512943%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&amp;sdata=nwhBoB7sNeBSTw0p2fZ4A0h18L2wc6BFfzb0mzbaPlE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ca92705fd2b264e40ef4a08d8866350cb%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407108921532938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&amp;sdata=8Tk27G2aw95li23ZpswX%2FxaRPaRFXyrKCHe4rWa8jXc%3D&amp;reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed Nov 11 18:18:19 2020
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 20 19:18:19 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  candravakiam
In-Reply-To: <F952B4AF-F09B-4619-9259-3C5329224C83@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <18ED231C-907E-4EC3-8D57-54F7FD699E8E@uclouvain.be>

It seems that the1948 ed. of the Candrav?kya-s corresponds in fact to the pages 82-86 of the 1948 ed. of the Haricarita by K. Raja (see below the link, or https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.495181 <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.495181> - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.383340 <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.383340> - https://archive.org/details/HaricaritaByParamesvaraBatta) with some additions (which ones I do not know)

The reference to the Candrav?kya-s specific volume is found on Jisc and Hathitrust :
https://discover.libraryhub.jisc.ac.uk/id/22629559 <https://discover.libraryhub.jisc.ac.uk/id/22629559>
Candrav?kyas of Vararuci : (A practical guide for calculating the position of the sun and moon, namely, Tithi and Nak?atra, on any day of the year) / [Edited] by C. Kunhan Raja.

Published [Adyar] : Adyar Library 1948

Physical description
52 p. : ill., tables, diagrams ; 22 cm.
Notes
Cover title.
Reprinted from "Haricarita," A. L. S. no. 63.


https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006745711
Candrava?kyas of Vararuci 
(A practical guide for calculating the position of the sun and moon, namely, Tithi and Naks?atra, on any day of the year) 
By C. Kunhan Raja. 
Published: 	[Adyar] Adyar Library, 1948.
Note: 	Reprinted from "Haricarita," A.L.S. no. 63.
Physical Description: 	52 p., tables, diagr. 
+ https://books.google.com/books/about/Candrav?kyas_of_Vararuci.html?id=dz0aAAAAIAAJ <https://books.google.com/books/about/Candrav%C4%81kyas_of_Vararuci.html?id=dz0aAAAAIAAJ>
https://www.worldcat.org/title/candravakyas-of-vararuci-a-practical-guide-for-calculating-the-position-of-the-sun-and-moon-namely-tithi-and-naksatra-on-any-day-of-the-year/oclc/6359918/editions?referer=di&editionsView=true&fq=

> D?but du message r?exp?di? :
> 
> De: Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Objet: R?p : [INDOLOGY] candravakiam
> Date: 11 novembre 2020 ? 18:47:07 UTC+1
> ?: Fran?ois Patte <francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr>
> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> R?pondre ?: Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>
> 
> These Candrav?kya-s or Vararuciv?kya-s were edited by C. Kunhan Raja, Adyar Library, 1948 (I do not find the item online)
> see K. Kunjunni Raja, Astronomy and Mathematics in Kerala, ALB 1963 reprinted as Adyar Pamphlet Series no. 50, 1995, pp. 3-4,
> K.V. Sarma, Kerala School of Astronomy, 1972, pp. 43, 56, 106, 116-117
> https://archive.org/details/KeralaSchoolOfAstronomy/page/n57/mode/2up <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2FKeralaSchoolOfAstronomy%2Fpage%2Fn57%2Fmode%2F2up&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cb9acba885edf4dd149b908d88669ec03%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407137530088767%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=prPJ0NHRHqmIg7oNagULgvMBY2KAMVKY8VMeyGXYYmc%3D&reserved=0>
> and K.D. Swaminathan 1972
> https://insa.nic.in/writereaddata/UpLoadedFiles/IJHS/Vol08_1and2_2_KDSwaminathan.pdf <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Finsa.nic.in%2Fwritereaddata%2FUpLoadedFiles%2FIJHS%2FVol08_1and2_2_KDSwaminathan.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cb9acba885edf4dd149b908d88669ec03%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407137530088767%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=eDtgKzO%2Bj2oJggu%2BI28e0cc9jHs2rVPf1Tl7pswuhio%3D&reserved=0>
> + the introduction of the Haricarita:
> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.326212/page/n1/mode/2up <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fin.ernet.dli.2015.326212%2Fpage%2Fn1%2Fmode%2F2up&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cb9acba885edf4dd149b908d88669ec03%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407137530098764%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EZVBCEpSlzx2STqBqF87%2BeaO1Qg1noYw8umu99dVyRM%3D&reserved=0>
> and the article of P.-S. Filliozat "Math?matiques et scolastique dans l'Inde m?di?vale,
> l'exemple du Haricarita de Parame?vara Bha??a" in DELIRE J.M., Astronomy and Mathematics in Ancient India ? Astronomie et Math?matiques de l?Inde Ancienne : Actes de la journ?e d??tudes organis?e le 24 avril 2009 ? l?Universit? Libre de Bruxelles, Leuven : Peeters Publishers, 2012, p. 77-86 (Lettres Orientales et Classiques 17).
> 
>> Le 11 nov. 2020 ? 17:59, Fran?ois Patte via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :
>> 
>> Bonjour,
>> 
>> Does someone know if there is somewhere an edition or, at least, some examples from this Vararuci's text.
>> 
>> On the internet, a lot of people talk about it, but no one gives an example of these vakia.
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> -- 
>> Fran?ois Patte
>> UFR de math?matiques et informatique
>> Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145
>> Universit? Paris Descartes
>> 45, rue des Saints P?res
>> F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
>> T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.math-info.univ-paris5.fr%2F~patte&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ca92705fd2b264e40ef4a08d8866350cb%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407108921512943%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&amp;sdata=elg5pbTkvbBPf9ovRfUjDl0CS9X5f40w%2FXOcAsyeYi8%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.math-info.univ-paris5.fr%2F~patte&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cb9acba885edf4dd149b908d88669ec03%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407137530098764%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=P9fRvJpSv07K7x2qSx3twoF1n7gld6ZohLsbWfQzk7E%3D&reserved=0>
>> FSF
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsf.org%2Fblogs%2Fcommunity%2Fpresenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ca92705fd2b264e40ef4a08d8866350cb%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407108921512943%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&amp;sdata=nwhBoB7sNeBSTw0p2fZ4A0h18L2wc6BFfzb0mzbaPlE%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ca92705fd2b264e40ef4a08d8866350cb%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407108921532938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&amp;sdata=8Tk27G2aw95li23ZpswX%2FxaRPaRFXyrKCHe4rWa8jXc%3D&amp;reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cb9acba885edf4dd149b908d88669ec03%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637407137530128742%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=bJDnPYm%2F%2BThWgzgCFxzUyBv0yhY07UhrwIPajW8zZBg%3D&amp;reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 16:40:04 2020
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 20 22:10:04 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Happy Dipavali
Message-ID: <CAKdrZG0FxW8ZLX0wj4Qdr43-aPByfHB0eOoX=nircjke9iHc3Q@mail.gmail.com>

?????????? ???????? ????????,
????? ???????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???????????
??????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ??????????
??????? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????????????
???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ????????
??? ???????????????????? ?????????
Regards
Girish K. Jha
Retd. University Professor
Dept of Sanskrit
Patna University
Current Residence : Kolkata


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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 05:55:18 2020
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 11:25:18 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mss Catalogues of Kameshwar Singh Darbhanga Sanskrit University
In-Reply-To: <CAJz4T_5w-B32WiYhA9VCv_TeK3CJwZz3A_GfZgOykRvusK_2wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJz4T_43P5VMuf=Ksy-uS4CEJrRwY9XLVZLo2sBhKGWV3WfebA@mail.gmail.com>

(apologies for cross-posting)

Dear Friends,

I still did not have luck with the two Darbhanga Ms catalogues I have been
looking for. Just in case anyone is ready to help. I am adding one more
catalogue title below:

-- *Descriptive catalogue of manuscripts in the Scindia Oriental Institute,
Vikram University, Ujjain, Volume 2, Issue 1 of Sindhiy? Pr?cya Sa?sth?na*,
Vikrama Vi?vavidy?laya, Ujjaina ke hastalikhita grantho? k? vivara??tmaka
s?c?, Sindhiy? Pr?cya Sa?sth?na, Volumes 5-6 of Sindhiy? pr?cya
grantham?l?, Sindhiy? Pr?cya Sa?sth?na, Vikrama Vi?vavidy?laya, 1983

In case someone has easy access to these catalogues, please do let me know.
I will highly appreciate your help.

Best wishes.

Mrinal Kaul

On Tue, 6 Oct 2020 at 22:36, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Would someone happen to have scanned copies of the following manuscript
> catalogues by any chance:
>
> -- *Descriptive Catalogue of Raj Manuscripts Preserved in Kameshwar Singh
> Sanskrit University Darbhanga*, by B.R. Sharma, Darbhanga 1969.
>
> -- *Vivara??tmak Hastalekha Grantha S?c? (Kameshwara Singh Sanskrit
> University)*, Darbhanga 1986.
>
> I should be grateful if you can share them with me. Thanks in advance and
> best wishes.
>
> Mrinal Kaul
> ------
> *Mrinal Kaul*, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor - Manipal Centre for Humanities (MCH)
> Coordinator - Centre for Religious Studies (CRS)
> Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex
> Alevoor Road, Manipal (Udupi) 576 104
> Karnataka, INDIA
> Tel +91-820-29-23567 Extn: 23567
> https://mrinalkaul.academia.edu/
> email: mrinal.kaul@ <mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu>stx.oxon.org
>


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From alessandr.battistin9 at unibo.it  Fri Nov 13 09:28:40 2020
From: alessandr.battistin9 at unibo.it (Alessandro Battistini)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 09:28:40 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
Message-ID: <AM0PR01MB5457280DD446AFCAA6DC3D9DBAE60@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Dear Members,

As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from Utprek??vallabha's Bhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical literature. Thanks.

Alessandro Battistini

University of Bologna
SHIVADHARMA Project


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From marco.franceschini3 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 10:17:06 2020
From: marco.franceschini3 at gmail.com (Marco Franceschini)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 11:17:06 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR01MB5457280DD446AFCAA6DC3D9DBAE60@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <0C1321D6-E0AE-4A69-BFD1-688A0888EF83@gmail.com>

Dear Alessandro,

years ago, answering to a question concerning anklets, a member of this group recommended this volume: Tewari, S.P., N?pura. The anklet in Indian literature and art. With a
foreword by C. Sivaramamurti. Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan, 1982.

I?ve never had the book in my hands, but its title strongly suggests that it focuses on anklets only? Unfortunately, no Italian library has it.

Best,

Marco
---

Marco Franceschini
???????????
Senior Assistant Professor
University of Bologna
Department of History and Cultures
marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it <mailto:marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it>
https://www.unibo.it/sitoweb/marco.franceschini3/en <https://www.unibo.it/sitoweb/marco.franceschini3/en>
http://unibo.academia.edu/MarcoFranceschini <http://unibo.academia.edu/MarcoFranceschini>
www.associazioneitalianadistudisanscriti.org <http://www.associazioneitalianadistudisanscriti.org/>
---

> Il giorno 13 nov 2020, alle ore 10:28, Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto:
> 
> Dear Members,
> 
> As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from Utprek??vallabha'sBhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical literature. Thanks.
> 
> Alessandro Battistini
> 
> University of Bologna
> SHIVADHARMA Project
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Fri Nov 13 10:28:55 2020
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 10:28:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR01MB5457280DD446AFCAA6DC3D9DBAE60@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <5226cbb753f643c0a4dc993bb5c47265@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Alessandro,


Indian Jewellery. by Thomas Holbein (sic) Hendley. The book is available on Archiv.org.


Best, Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> namens Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: vrijdag 13 november 2020 10:28
Aan: Indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery

Dear Members,

As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from Utprek??vallabha's Bhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical literature. Thanks.

Alessandro Battistini

University of Bologna
SHIVADHARMA Project


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From aparpola at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 11:32:54 2020
From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 13:32:54 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
In-Reply-To: <5226cbb753f643c0a4dc993bb5c47265@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <70702364-E98A-4292-B6A4-DEF1EE7649B7@gmail.com>

Here is a partial bibliography on Indian jewellery.  I would like to recommend particularly the book by my late friend Oppi Untracht.

- Aziatische Kunst 21 (3), Sept. 1991. Hoofse snuijsterijen uit India. 36 pp., ill. 
- Balakrishnan, Usha R., 1999. Dance of the peacock: Jewellery traditions of India. Photography by Bharath Ramamrutham. New Delhi: IBH.  Folio, 335 pp., colour ill., bibl., index. 
- Barnard, Nick, 2008. Indian jewellery. London: Victoria & Albert Museum. 128 pp. ISBN 978-1851774838.
- Brunel, Francis, 1972. Jewellery of India: Five thousand years of tradition. New Delhi: National Book Trust, India. 23x32 cm, 84 pp., ill. Hb 
- Chakrabarti, Gopa, 2003. Alankar: Ornaments of the tribes. Kolkata: Anthropological Survey of India. 21 x 27 cm, 36 pp., 37 (35 col.) ill. Pb ISBN 81-85579814.
- Chandra, Rai Govind, 1964. Studies in the development of ornaments and jewellery in proto-historic India. (The Chowkhamba Sanskrit Studies 41.) Varanasi: The Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office. 4:o xviii, 343 pp., 48 pl.
- Chaturvedi, B. K., n.d.. Jewellery of India. New Delhi: Diamond Pocket Books. 18 cm, 128 pp., ill. Pb 
- Dongerkery, Kamala, 1970. Jewelry and personal adornment in India. Delhi: Indian Council of Cultural Relations. 
- Gabriel, Hannelore, 1999. Jewelry of Nepal. London: Thames and Hudson Ltd. 224 pp., 384 ill (310 in colour). Hb ISBN 0-500-01920-7.
- Giri, Kamal, 1987. Bh?ratiya ???g?r. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. vi, 327 pp., 51 pp. of pl. (In Hindi)
[Dress, cosmetics, hair styles and ornaments in ancient India from the earliest times to the 7th century A.D.]
- Handa, O. C., 1998. Textiles, costumes and ornaments of the Western Himalaya. New Delhi: Indus Book Company. Illustrated. 
-  Hendley, Thomas Holbein, 1909. Indian jewellery. (The Journal of Indian Art, Vol. 12, nos. 95-107.) London: W. Griggs & Sons, Ltd. Reprinted, New Delhi: Low Price Publications, 1990. Folio, vii, 209, iv pp., with 167 col. and b/w. pl., index.
- Keene, Manuel, with Salam Kaouki, 2001. Treasury of the world: Jewelled arts of India in the age of the Mughals. London: Thames and Hudson. 4:o, 160 pp., ill. Pb ISBN 0-500-97608-2. 
- Kumar, Manmohan, 2016. Antiquity of nose-ornaments in India. Pur?tattva 46: 242-244 & pl. 1.
- Lixfeld, Tsajon Von, 1998. The Lotus Exhibition: Aristocratic adornments of India, 3rd century B.C. to 20th century. Santa Ana: The Bowers Museum of Cultural Art. 4:o (28 cm) 53 pp., ill. Pb
- Mack, John (ed.) 1988. Ethnic jewellery*. London: British Museum Publications. 4:o, 207 pp. Hb. (pp. 64-93: India)
- Nigam, Mohan Lal, 1999. Indian jewellery. Photographs by Dheeraj Paul. New Delhi: Roli Books Pvt. Ltd. Folio, 96 pp., ill. (col.) Hb ISBN 81-74360670. 
- Padma, Bathula Shree, 1991. Costume, coiffure and ornaments in the temple sculpture of northern Andhra. Delhi: Agam Kala. xxiv, 347 pp., 40 pl., ill., map., bibl., index
- Sharma, Rita Devi, & M. Varadarajan, 2004. Handcrafted Indian enameled jewellery. Roli Books. 144 pp. ISBN 978-81-74362476.
- Stronge, Susan, (ed.) 1995.  The jewels of India. Bombay: Marg Publications. Folio, viii, 136 pp., ill., gloss., index. Hb ISBN 81-85026-30-0. 
- Tagore, Sourindro Mohun. 1879-1891. Ma?i-m?l?: A treatise on gems, I-II. Calcutta: I. C. Bose & Co.
Both volumes are available for download at archive.org:
Vol. I: https://archive.org/details/Mani-malaOrATreatiseOnGemsPartI
Vol. II: https://archive.org/details/Mani-malaOrATreatiseOnGemsPartIi
- Untracht, Oppi, 1997. Traditional jewellery of India. New York: Harry N. Abrams. 4:o, 432 pp., 863 (220 col.) ill. Hb
- Vinson, Julien, 1904. Les bijoux indiens du pays tamoul  (Pondich?ry). Journal Asiatique 1904. 23 pp. 
- Weihreter, Hans, 1993. Sch?tze der Menschen und G?tter: Alter Goldschmuck aus Indien. Augsburg: Edition Khyu?. 30 cm, 100 pp. 80 ill.

With best wishes, Asko
www.helsinki.academia.edu/AskoParpola



> On 13 Nov 2020, at 12.28, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Alessandro,
> 
> Indian Jewellery. by Thomas Holbein (sic) Hendley. The book is available on Archiv.org <http://archiv.org/>.
> 
> Best, Herman
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> 
> Van: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> namens Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Verzonden: vrijdag 13 november 2020 10:28
> Aan: Indology
> Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
>  
> Dear Members,
> 
> As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from Utprek??vallabha's Bhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical literature. Thanks.
> 
> Alessandro Battistini
> 
> University of Bologna
> SHIVADHARMA Project
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de  Fri Nov 13 11:35:36 2020
From: straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de (Martin Straube)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 12:35:36 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR01MB5457280DD446AFCAA6DC3D9DBAE60@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <20201113123536.Horde.TaL8-jq9FU_4nLMI3uYC4Xe@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Dear Alessandro,

"The Encyclopedia of India", Ed. in Chief Stanley Wolper, 2006, has a  
good article on "Jewellery" in vol. II with several bibliographic  
references. And, just in case you are not aware of it, a search for  
"jewellery" in the SARDS database (www.sards.uni-halle.de) gives 26  
results.

With best wishes
Martin

Zitat von Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear Members,
>
> As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from  
> Utprek??vallabha's Bhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you  
> could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women  
> jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature  
> would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet  
> had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical  
> literature. Thanks.
>
> Alessandro Battistini
>
> University of Bologna
> SHIVADHARMA Project



-- 
Martin Straube
Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
Pali Text Society

Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
Indologie und Tibetologie
Deutschhausstrasse 12
35032 Marburg
Germany






From kauzeya at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 11:50:08 2020
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 12:50:08 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
In-Reply-To: <20201113123536.Horde.TaL8-jq9FU_4nLMI3uYC4Xe@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+CNLPMoy+P7=+iNSsiXjYzXVtkc+ogkrd1Ne-f-cgTTQ@mail.gmail.com>

more or less as a side note, there is of course considerable scholarly
literature on 'ratna', jewels, beginning I don't know where but certainly
one of the early great works which have stood the test of time is Louis
Finot?s 1896 Les lapidaires indiens. searching google scholar for Finot and
ratna brings up many subsequent works (because so many scholars cite Finot
in their bibliographies).

Jonathan

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:36 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Alessandro,
>
> "The Encyclopedia of India", Ed. in Chief Stanley Wolper, 2006, has a
> good article on "Jewellery" in vol. II with several bibliographic
> references. And, just in case you are not aware of it, a search for
> "jewellery" in the SARDS database (www.sards.uni-halle.de) gives 26
> results.
>
> With best wishes
> Martin
>
> Zitat von Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info
> >:
>
> > Dear Members,
> >
> > As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from
> > Utprek??vallabha's Bhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you
> > could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women
> > jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature
> > would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet
> > had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical
> > literature. Thanks.
> >
> > Alessandro Battistini
> >
> > University of Bologna
> > SHIVADHARMA Project
>
>
>
> --
> Martin Straube
> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
> Pali Text Society
>
> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
> Indologie und Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstrasse 12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From V.Sasson at marianopolis.edu  Fri Nov 13 13:40:21 2020
From: V.Sasson at marianopolis.edu (Vanessa Sasson)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 13:40:21 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4+CNLPMoy+P7=+iNSsiXjYzXVtkc+ogkrd1Ne-f-cgTTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eb9edb46b1464c14ac4b1a6982f4e945@marianopolis.edu>

Good morning,

We have an edited volume on jewels in the Buddhist imaginary scheduled to come out in the Fall of 2021 with University of Hawaii Press. I am happy to share the table of contents with you, if you want to take a look.

Cheers,
Vanessa R. Sasson

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> On Behalf Of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY
Sent: November 13, 2020 6:50 AM
To: Martin Straube <straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Indian jewellery

more or less as a side note, there is of course considerable scholarly literature on 'ratna', jewels, beginning I don't know where but certainly one of the early great works which have stood the test of time is Louis Finot?s 1896 Les lapidaires indiens. searching google scholar for Finot and ratna brings up many subsequent works (because so many scholars cite Finot in their bibliographies).

Jonathan

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:36 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Alessandro,

"The Encyclopedia of India", Ed. in Chief Stanley Wolper, 2006, has a
good article on "Jewellery" in vol. II with several bibliographic
references. And, just in case you are not aware of it, a search for
"jewellery" in the SARDS database (www.sards.uni-halle.de<http://www.sards.uni-halle.de>) gives 26
results.

With best wishes
Martin

Zitat von Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

> Dear Members,
>
> As I am editing the ma??anapaddhati (Section on Ornaments) from
> Utprek??vallabha's Bhik???anak?vya, I woul be grateful if any of you
> could point me to any contribution, ancient or modern, on women
> jewellery in ancienti India. References on jewels in literature
> would be highly appreciated: I am trying to ascertain if the poet
> had been somehow influenced by other k?vyas or by technical
> literature. Thanks.
>
> Alessandro Battistini
>
> University of Bologna
> SHIVADHARMA Project



--
Martin Straube
Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
Pali Text Society

Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
Indologie und Tibetologie
Deutschhausstrasse 12
35032 Marburg
Germany


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

website: www.OpenPhilology.eu<http://www.OpenPhilology.eu>
copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From john.darumadera at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 14:02:39 2020
From: john.darumadera at gmail.com (John Huntington)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 09:02:39 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a few books mostly on Indian jewelry
Message-ID: <CAGbyd206L7PGWe4tJ_pqkjC2bx8uof8ayD+=jOJ6bi8AXixMzg@mail.gmail.com>

 Untracht, Oppi, *Traditional Jewelry of India, *Abrams NY 1997

(By far the most useful)


Birdwood, George C. M., *The Industrial Arts of India,* London 1880


Gabriel, Hannelore, *The Jewelry of Nepal, *Weatherhill, New York & Tokyo
1999


Mehta, Rustam J.*The Handicrafts and Industrial Arts of India,* Bombay, 1960


Nandagopal, Choodamani and Vatsala Iyengar, *Temple Treasures: Temple
Jewelry,*Crafts council of Bangalore,

1997


Chandra, Dr. Rai Govind, *Studies in the Development of Ornaments and
Jewelry in Proto-Historic India, *Chowkhamba Sanskrit series, Varanasi, 1964


Brunel, Francis, *Jewelry of India, *Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers Pvt.
Ltd., No place?, No date?


Jayakar, Pupul and John Irwin, *Textiles and Ornaments of India,* New York.
1956


Oppi Untracht's work is the most useful trom a technical standpoint


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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 14:22:25 2020
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 15:22:25 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] National Museum Library Colombo
Message-ID: <e553b9f6-d6e0-6d68-5f29-b089f419e0bd@gmail.com>

Dear listmembers,

I would be very thankful for any personal contact to someone who is 
working at the National Museum Library in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

Best

Heiner

-- 
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com	






From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:03:37 2020
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 17:03:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Meaning of "Vigyan"
Message-ID: <20201113170337.25130.qmail@f4mail-235-117.rediffmail.com>

Respected Scholars,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of late , I find myself deeply intrigued&nbsp; by the actual meaning of the term " Vigyan".
Among various Buddhist schools of philosophy ,namely.VigyanVadins . BasuBandhu,the well known Buddhist philosopher writes "Chittam Manam Vigyanam Vigyapti ca iti Paryaya" which loosely translates as vigyan chitta(consciousness) and Mana(Mind) are synonymous.On the other hand , lessons from Shri Ramkrishna and Swami Vivekananda tells me that "Vigyan" is Integrated knowledgeIn Taitteriya Upanishad, We find the 5 sheaths that shield the Atmana or soul .Among them the 4th sheath comes to be called as Vigyanmay Sheath or Kosha.Here the term implies "Self awareness"Being stuck in this whirlwind of meanings of a single word,can anyone kindly enlighten me on the actual connotation of the word "Vigyan"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Regards.Alakendu Das&nbsp;



Sent from RediffmailNG on Android


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:48:11 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 20 10:48:11 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Mss Catalogues of Kameshwar Singh Darbhanga Sanskrit University
In-Reply-To: <CAJz4T_43P5VMuf=Ksy-uS4CEJrRwY9XLVZLo2sBhKGWV3WfebA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CczMK5C+mZJK_cU97TCGLRjr1kpnXHgowyu=M13vy16LQ@mail.gmail.com>

These are Biswas #0266 and #0267.

Neither are currently available at http://catalogues.indology.info

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 22:55, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com> wrote:

> (apologies for cross-posting)
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I still did not have luck with the two Darbhanga Ms catalogues I have
> been looking for. Just in case anyone is ready to help. I am adding one
> more catalogue title below:
>
> -- *Descriptive catalogue of manuscripts in the Scindia Oriental
> Institute, Vikram University, Ujjain, Volume 2, Issue 1 of Sindhiy? Pr?cya
> Sa?sth?na*, Vikrama Vi?vavidy?laya, Ujjaina ke hastalikhita grantho? k?
> vivara??tmaka s?c?, Sindhiy? Pr?cya Sa?sth?na, Volumes 5-6 of Sindhiy?
> pr?cya grantham?l?, Sindhiy? Pr?cya Sa?sth?na, Vikrama Vi?vavidy?laya, 1983
>
> In case someone has easy access to these catalogues, please do let me
> know. I will highly appreciate your help.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Mrinal Kaul
>
> On Tue, 6 Oct 2020 at 22:36, Mrinal Kaul <mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Would someone happen to have scanned copies of the following manuscript
>> catalogues by any chance:
>>
>> -- *Descriptive Catalogue of Raj Manuscripts Preserved in Kameshwar
>> Singh Sanskrit University Darbhanga*, by B.R. Sharma, Darbhanga 1969.
>>
>> -- *Vivara??tmak Hastalekha Grantha S?c? (Kameshwara Singh Sanskrit
>> University)*, Darbhanga 1986.
>>
>> I should be grateful if you can share them with me. Thanks in advance and
>> best wishes.
>>
>> Mrinal Kaul
>> ------
>> *Mrinal Kaul*, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor - Manipal Centre for Humanities (MCH)
>> Coordinator - Centre for Religious Studies (CRS)
>> Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex
>> Alevoor Road, Manipal (Udupi) 576 104
>> Karnataka, INDIA
>> Tel +91-820-29-23567 Extn: 23567
>> https://mrinalkaul.academia.edu/
>> email: mrinal.kaul@ <mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu>stx.oxon.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> PLEASE post to this list ONLY from an email account that has been
> subscribed.
> PLEASE use a signature with your full name and institutional affiliation.
>
> RISA-L mailing list
> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu
> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l
>


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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 06:06:10 2020
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 20 11:36:10 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Happy Dipavali
In-Reply-To: <20201113230815.Horde.LrMfIUg4vtKZOQWr69kWph0@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAKdrZG0VBwp_j9RQaY7jD+7kS-MpnSFHG4wjNWpae-eAK8FGow@mail.gmail.com>

????????????? ??????? ????????????????
??????????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ???????
?????????????? ????? ??? ???????? ?????????
????????? ????????????????????? ???????????
????????????
Girish K. Jha
Retd Univ. Professor
Dept of Sanskrit
Patna University
 Current Residence: Kolkata

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 03:38 tatiana.oranskaia, <
tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de> wrote:

> ???? ???? ??????? ?
> ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????
> ??????? !
> ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? !
> ??????? ?????????
>
> Zitat von Girish Jha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>
> > ?????????? ???????? ????????,
> > ????? ???????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???????????
> > ??????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ??????????
> > ??????? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????????????
> > ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ????????
> > ??? ???????????????????? ?????????
> > Regards
> > Girish K. Jha
> > Retd. University Professor
> > Dept of Sanskrit
> > Patna University
> > Current Residence : Kolkata
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Tatiana Oranskaia
> Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets
> Asien-Afrika-Institut
> Universit?t Hamburg
> Alsterterrasse 1, 1. OG re.
> 20354 Hamburg
>
> Tel.: 040 428 38 3385 (GZ)
> Fax: 040 42838 6944
> tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de
>
>
>


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Sat Nov 14 07:23:55 2020
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 20 07:23:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Happy Dipavali
Message-ID: <1605334027.S.14046.6005.f4-234-198.1605338635.15925@webmail.rediffmail.com>

SHUBH DIPAVALI to All&nbsp;
Alakendu Das

Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: Girish Jha via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:37:07 GMT+0530
To: tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Happy Dipavali

????????????? ??????? ??????????????????????????????? ???????? ??????? ?? ????????????????????? ????? ??? ???????? ?????????????????? ????????????????????? ???????????????????????Girish K. JhaRetd Univ. ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna University&nbsp;Current Residence: Kolkata
On Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 03:38 tatiana.oranskaia, &lt;tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de&gt; wrote:
???? ???? ??????? ?

?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????&nbsp; 

??????? !

???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? !

??????? ?????????



Zitat von Girish Jha via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;:



&gt; ?????????? ???????? ????????,

&gt; ????? ???????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???????????

&gt; ??????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ??????????

&gt; ??????? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????????????

&gt; ???????????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ????????

&gt; ??? ???????????????????? ?????????

&gt; Regards

&gt; Girish K. Jha

&gt; Retd. University Professor

&gt; Dept of Sanskrit

&gt; Patna University

&gt; Current Residence : Kolkata





-- 

Prof. Dr. Tatiana Oranskaia

Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets

Asien-Afrika-Institut

Universit?t Hamburg

Alsterterrasse 1, 1. OG re.

20354 Hamburg



Tel.: 040 428 38 3385 (GZ)

Fax: 040 42838 6944

tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de






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From finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu  Sat Nov 14 21:23:36 2020
From: finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu (Finnian Moore-Gerety)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 20 16:23:36 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Looking_for_Giri's_edition_of_Rev=C4=81kha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_attributed_to_the_Skandapur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a?=
Message-ID: <3FD8600B-EEDB-404D-BFEA-513FA56492C4@brown.edu>

Hello Indologists?
I?m searching for a scan of the following edition of the Rev?kha??a attributed to the Skandapur??a:
Giri, O?k?r?nanda (ed.) - atha b?hat ?r?narmad?pur??am rev?kha??am (parivardhita t?t?ya sa?skara?a).
J??nasatra Prak??ana Ny?sa, Ho?a?g?b?da: 1994.

I?m aware of the e-text <http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/corpustei/transformations/html/sa_skandapurANa-revAkhaNDa-rks.htm> generously input by Juergen Neuss on GRETIL, but I?d like to consult the printed edition if possible.

Yours,

Finnian M.M. Gerety
Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies
[Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for Contemporary South Asia
Brown University
www.finniangerety.com <http://finniangerety.com/>










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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Nov 14 23:32:52 2020
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 00:32:52 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rhinoceros sutta
Message-ID: <CALNcvFubTHi6pB-VFetfZvNDwAhPCNT7G+6o3PiXJcJd3DXuLA@mail.gmail.com>

Great request:

Could someone send me a link to the Pali sutta text about 'rhinoceros'
(khaggavisana-sutta)?
I would like to translate it from the original and publish it in Polish.

Thanking you in advance,

Artur Karp

(ex University of Warsaw, Indology Deptt.)

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Wolny
od wirus?w. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


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From yogacara at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 00:51:07 2020
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 20 19:51:07 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rhinoceros sutta
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFubTHi6pB-VFetfZvNDwAhPCNT7G+6o3PiXJcJd3DXuLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F3E78FF-C0F5-4EAE-BB55-8D51107372D6@gmail.com>

Dear Artur,

These days there is a wonderful resource for Pali materials: suttacentral.net <http://suttacentral.net/>

Sutta Nip?ta 1.3
Khaggavis??asutta
https://suttacentral.net/snp1.3/pli/ms <https://suttacentral.net/snp1.3/pli/ms> 

C??aniddesa
Khaggavis??asuttaniddesa
https://suttacentral.net/cnd23/pli/ms <https://suttacentral.net/cnd23/pli/ms> 

All the best,
Dan

> On Nov 14, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Great request:
> 
> Could someone send me a link to the Pali sutta text about 'rhinoceros' (khaggavisana-sutta)?
> I would like to translate it from the original and publish it in Polish. 
> 
> Thanking you in advance, 
> 
> Artur Karp
> 
> (ex University of Warsaw, Indology Deptt.)
> 
>  <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>	Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <x-msg://16/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Nov 15 12:13:31 2020
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 13:13:31 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rhinoceros sutta
In-Reply-To: <8F3E78FF-C0F5-4EAE-BB55-8D51107372D6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvE8N8d5f-Zj1tRjOXtP=5fYx_7a6RpLuCF4mL=sUOPDA@mail.gmail.com>

Drodzy Pa?stwo,

Allow me to send you my so far unpublished article on the relics of the
Buddha and the Elixir of Immortality.
Article initially accepted for publication in the "Rocznik
Orientalistyczny", but still awaiting a second review - delayed, probably
due to the epidemic.

Hoping that the subject will interest you,

I send heartfelt greetings,

Artur Karp

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Wolny
od wirus?w. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

niedz., 15 lis 2020 o 01:51 Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com> napisa?(a):

> Dear Artur,
>
> These days there is a wonderful resource for Pali materials:
> suttacentral.net
>
> Sutta Nip?ta 1.3
> Khaggavis??asutta
> https://suttacentral.net/snp1.3/pli/ms
>
> C??aniddesa
> Khaggavis??asuttaniddesa
> https://suttacentral.net/cnd23/pli/ms
>
> All the best,
> Dan
>
> On Nov 14, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Great request:
>
> Could someone send me a link to the Pali sutta text about 'rhinoceros'
> (khaggavisana-sutta)?
> I would like to translate it from the original and publish it in Polish.
>
> Thanking you in advance,
>
> Artur Karp
>
> (ex University of Warsaw, Indology Deptt.)
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
> od wirus?w. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Nov 15 12:34:02 2020
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 13:34:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rhinoceros sutta
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvE8N8d5f-Zj1tRjOXtP=5fYx_7a6RpLuCF4mL=sUOPDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsQpeAoQqagE44AdkarW=w=NjjBiP4RKHH1t+QkrF_wmw@mail.gmail.com>

A - hopefully - better, *.pdf version:



<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Wolny
od wirus?w. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

niedz., 15 lis 2020 o 13:13 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):

> Drodzy Pa?stwo,
>
> Allow me to send you my so far unpublished article on the relics of the
> Buddha and the Elixir of Immortality.
> Article initially accepted for publication in the "Rocznik
> Orientalistyczny", but still awaiting a second review - delayed, probably
> due to the epidemic.
>
> Hoping that the subject will interest you,
>
> I send heartfelt greetings,
>
> Artur Karp
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
> od wirus?w. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#m_-3968781609948132242_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> niedz., 15 lis 2020 o 01:51 Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear Artur,
>>
>> These days there is a wonderful resource for Pali materials:
>> suttacentral.net
>>
>> Sutta Nip?ta 1.3
>> Khaggavis??asutta
>> https://suttacentral.net/snp1.3/pli/ms
>>
>> C??aniddesa
>> Khaggavis??asuttaniddesa
>> https://suttacentral.net/cnd23/pli/ms
>>
>> All the best,
>> Dan
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Great request:
>>
>> Could someone send me a link to the Pali sutta text about 'rhinoceros'
>> (khaggavisana-sutta)?
>> I would like to translate it from the original and publish it in Polish.
>>
>> Thanking you in advance,
>>
>> Artur Karp
>>
>> (ex University of Warsaw, Indology Deptt.)
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>


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From filipsky at orient.cas.cz  Sun Nov 15 12:39:05 2020
From: filipsky at orient.cas.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Jan_Filipsk=C3=BD?=)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 13:39:05 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW:  Rhinoceros sutta
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFubTHi6pB-VFetfZvNDwAhPCNT7G+6o3PiXJcJd3DXuLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006001d6bb4c$4e2eb200$ea8c1600$@orient.cas.cz>

From: Jan Filipsk? [mailto:filipsky at orient.cas.cz] 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 1:11 PM
To: 'Artur Karp' <karp at uw.edu.pl>
Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Rhinoceros sutta

 

Dear Prof. Karp,

the sutta you are looking for can be found in Khuddakanik?ye Suttanip?to, Uragavaggo, 1.3. Khaggavis??a sutta?, vv. 35-75. We hope to see your Polish translation soon.

With best regards

Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute CAS, Praha

 

From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Artur Karp via INDOLOGY
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 12:33 AM
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info> >
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rhinoceros sutta

 

Great request:

 

Could someone send me a link to the Pali sutta text about 'rhinoceros' (khaggavisana-sutta)?

I would like to translate it from the original and publish it in Polish. 

 

Thanking you in advance, 

 

Artur Karp

 

(ex University of Warsaw, Indology Deptt.)

 


 <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> 

Wolny od wirus?w.  <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> www.avast.com 

 



-- 
Tento e-mail byl zkontrolov?n na viry programem AVG.
http://www.avg.cz


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Nov 15 17:03:36 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 09:03:36 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diwali Greetings
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcsAik-UuuYvFpo4MPtyaYs9Uga-toPXBecNuX73njDBA@mail.gmail.com>

Happy Dipavali to Everyone!

???? ??????? ?????? ?????????????????? ?
??????? ??: ????? ????????? ?? ???? ??

May this Dipavali, giving joy to all hearts, remove all darkness and
illuminate our world.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From baums at lmu.de  Sun Nov 15 21:42:55 2020
From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 16:42:55 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pali Buddhist Texts by Rune Johansson
In-Reply-To: <DBBPR01MB7625ED96A95D2D697C459398D6E70@DBBPR01MB7625.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <87d00eguu8.fsf@lmu.de>

Forwarded on behalf of Antonio Costanzo. Please reply to (or cc)
his email address.

Antonio Costanzo <antoniokostanzo at hotmail.it> writes:

> Dear Recipient(s),
>
> Could you ask the members on your list whether someone knows who is
> the right holder of the following book?
>
> https://www.amazon.it/Pali-Buddhist-Texts-Introductory-Grammar/dp/070071068X/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_it_IT=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=pali+buddhist+text&qid=1605158373&s=books&sr=1-1
> Amazon.it: Pali Buddhist Texts: An Introductory Reader and Grammar -
> Johansson, Rune E. A. - Libri in altre
> lingue<https://www.amazon.it/Pali-Buddhist-Texts-Introductory-Grammar/dp/070071068X/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_it_IT=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=pali+buddhist+text&qid=1605158373&s=books&sr=1-1>
> Scopri Pali Buddhist Texts: An Introductory Reader and Grammar di
> Johansson, Rune E. A.: spedizione gratuita per i clienti Prime e per
> ordini a partire da 29? spediti da Amazon.
> www.amazon.it
> I would like to publish a new totally reformatted edition of this book
> for free distribution. Also, I would seek for permission to translate
> it in other languages.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Kind regards,
> Antonio

-- 
Stefan Baums, Ph.D.
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen





From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 15 23:53:06 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 20 23:53:06 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <972051892.5815089.1605484386504.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <972051892.5815089.1605484386504@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma.
I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ? 

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions?
Best,
Dean Anderson



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From wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de  Mon Nov 16 06:38:29 2020
From: wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de (wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 20 07:38:29 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <972051892.5815089.1605484386504@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20201116073829.Horde.0_UxTTA4iW0YRg0_zsPSO-8@mail.uni-leipzig.de>

Dear Dean Andrson,

in JAtaka No. 544, a king "learns" that a good rebirth is unrelated to  
good or bad karma heaped up in former lives. Examples of good deeds  
accompanied with bad rebirths and vice versa are given. Rather, you  
just have to wait very long and will finally be released. So, the king  
draws the understandable conclusion of just going for enjoyment. But,  
finally, the Buddha helps to overcome this pernicious view.  
(Incidentally, the king offers a lottery to the Buddha and so, there,  
we may have the world first definition of a probability.)

All the best from Leipzig
Harald Wiese



Zitat von Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic  
> process based on past karma.
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,  
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as  
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random  
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is  
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other  
> reincarnation-based religions?
> Best,
> Dean Anderson








From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk  Mon Nov 16 12:50:38 2020
From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 20 12:50:38 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <972051892.5815089.1605484386504@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCC4F94C-1483-4944-8A70-2307ED796AD3@bristol.ac.uk>

Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (?sanna)
habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)

See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 14:31:56 2020
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 20 15:31:56 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <FCC4F94C-1483-4944-8A70-2307ED796AD3@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <a01fc3c2-83bf-7ea8-c0b8-a1d3d7347339@gmail.com>

Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I 
see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)? a 
systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific 
actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he 
is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also his 
way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is 
still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read 
Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer 
of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner


Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to 
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to 
> unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN 
> III?207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both 
> the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of 
> karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past 
> actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g.?Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16),?Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 
> 477,?Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this 
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience 
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you 
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something 
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend 
> to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether 
> to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing 
> these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a 
> variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only 
> buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that 
> govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary 
> folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> *Rupert Gethin*
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
>> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>>
>> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic 
>> process based on past karma.
>>
>> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, 
>> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as 
>> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random 
>> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is 
>> not so strictly deterministic.
>>
>> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>>
>> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this 
>> idea ?
>>
>> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other 
>> reincarnation-based religions?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dean Anderson
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 16 20:14:55 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 20 20:14:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <a01fc3c2-83bf-7ea8-c0b8-a1d3d7347339@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1480082944.6184572.1605557696007@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
Best,
Dean

    On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
 
  
Dear Dean,
 another aspect may be helpful:
 
 because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)? a systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
 When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
 This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
 
 
I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell. 
 
 
Best
 Heiner
 

 
 Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
  
 
Dear Dean, 
  Not sure if the following is relevant to you query. 
  The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III?207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation). 
  Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth: 
  weighty (garuka/guru)
 near to death (?sanna)
 habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta) something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta) 
  See e.g.?Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16),?Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,?Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719. 
  In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not. 
  Best wishes, 
  Rupert        --  Rupert Gethin
 Professor of Buddhist Studies
 University of Bristol
 
 Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk
        
 
 On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: 
    Dear fellow members of the Indology list, 
  Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma. 
  I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.
  
  I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately. 
  Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ? 
  
  Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions? 
  Best, 
  Dean Anderson 
  
    _______________________________________________
 INDOLOGY mailing list
 INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
 indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
 http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
  
  
 
  _______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
 -- 
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com _______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
  


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From acchoda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 22:40:15 2020
From: acchoda at gmail.com (David Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 20 22:40:15 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request Vaudeville 1962 Les duha de Dhola-Maru
Message-ID: <CAA=_wHczyCyHiy2u15cNh9YyJMPovfpLevT6EKHBpvidNCZkPA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Does anyone have a pdf of Vaudeville 1962 Les duha de Dhola-Maru? I'd be
very grateful for the file.

Best wishes,

David Smith


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From acchoda at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 22:44:57 2020
From: acchoda at gmail.com (David Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 20 22:44:57 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request Vaudeville 1962 Les duha de Dhola-Maru
Message-ID: <CAA=_wHeyNa9XfhLPW8S4s2SWJB3eU_LfNe9=S7qx+9UagO14eQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Does anyone have a pdf of Vaudeville 1962 Les duha de Dhola-Maru? I'd be
very grateful for the file.

Best wishes,

David Smith
acchoda at gmail.com


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 08:08:07 2020
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 09:08:07 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <1480082944.6184572.1605557696007@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X42TZASS2FOWgnrveGZvjw9Ep7g+LVg4nNS+nQ8Va5Zisg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob
Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember
the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the
incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother
if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a
female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual
appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the
incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home
selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a
certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to
your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far
> as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see
> that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific
> actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is
> a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way,
> probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still
> observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of
> your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
>
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant
> rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant
> rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III 207?15, with
> parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the
> Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in
> the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might
> determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy
> (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life
> (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the
> unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done
> anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the
> time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play
> (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to
> near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past
> action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come
> into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand
> the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from
> the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the
> perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> *Rupert Gethin*
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process
> based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so
> strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
> idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Kochwww.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 17 08:26:46 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 08:26:46 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X42TZASS2FOWgnrveGZvjw9Ep7g+LVg4nNS+nQ8Va5Zisg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1286112336.6424439.1605601606811@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks James.
Do you happen to remember the title?
Dean


    On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Hi Dean
Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
CheersJames

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

 Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
Best,
Dean

    On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
 
  
Dear Dean,
 another aspect may be helpful:
 
 because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)? a systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
 When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
 This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
 
 
I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell. 
 
 
Best
 Heiner
 

 
 Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
  
 
Dear Dean, 
  Not sure if the following is relevant to you query. 
  The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III?207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation). 
  Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth: 
  weighty (garuka/guru)
 near to death (?sanna)
 habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta) something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta) 
  See e.g.?Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16),?Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,?Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719. 
  In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not. 
  Best wishes, 
  Rupert        --  Rupert Gethin
 Professor of Buddhist Studies
 University of Bristol
 
 Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk
        
 
 On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: 
    Dear fellow members of the Indology list, 
  Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma. 
  I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.
  
  I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately. 
  Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ? 
  
  Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions? 
  Best, 
  Dean Anderson 
  
    _______________________________________________
 INDOLOGY mailing list
 INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
 indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
 http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
  
  
 
  _______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
 -- 
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com _______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
  _______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD(2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

  


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 08:48:50 2020
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 09:48:50 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <1286112336.6424439.1605601606811@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X41Ey-dQz=5-3HSuCJRqtY7WZVh8TBL4ThDN5g+cRuOrbw@mail.gmail.com>

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
@Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <
eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <
> james.hartzell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob
> Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember
> the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the
> incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother
> if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a
> female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual
> appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the
> incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home
> selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a
> certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to
> your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far
> as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see
> that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific
> actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is
> a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way,
> probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still
> observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of
> your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
>
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant
> rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant
> rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III 207?15, with
> parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the
> Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in
> the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might
> determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy
> (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life
> (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the
> unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done
> anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the
> time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play
> (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to
> near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past
> action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come
> into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand
> the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from
> the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the
> perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> *Rupert Gethin*
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process
> based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so
> strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
> idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Kochwww.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>

-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Nov 17 09:07:39 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 09:07:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X41Ey-dQz=5-3HSuCJRqtY7WZVh8TBL4ThDN5g+cRuOrbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB439619FD9B7B2788F0A66DFDA1E20@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm

One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with rebirth as well:
https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Thanks James.

Do you happen to remember the title?

Dean


On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.

Best,

Dean

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner


Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (?sanna)
habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)

See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Tue Nov 17 12:26:05 2020
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 13:26:05 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: change in submission deadline (Fwd: Conference Call "Documentation and Description of Asian Languages: History and Epistemology"
In-Reply-To: <e7e411bb-f90a-c836-d70a-4653dc4fde24@linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <a34423f1-8721-51ca-48fa-c4dd9d45fbbf@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

FYI



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	Fwd: Conference Call "Documentation and Description of Asian 
Languages: History and Epistemology"
Date: 	Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:17:07 +0100
From: 	Emilie Aussant <emilie.aussant at linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr>
To: 	


******
Dear Colleagues,

Because of the uncertainties due to the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic 
on the organisation of scientific events by the end of 2020 / beginning 
of 2021, the organisers (?milie Aussant, Pascale Rabault-Feuerhahn and 
Fabien Simon) decided to postpone the *SHESL conference ("Documentation 
and Description of Asian Languages - History and Epistemology") *in 
*January 2022* (the exact dates will be communicated later).

The **new** submission deadline is postponed to *15th March 2021*.

More information here : http://shesl.org/index.php/colloque-shesl-2021/ 
<http://shesl.org/index.php/colloque-shesl-2021/>

Request for information and proposals should be sent to: shesl at shesl.org 
<mailto:shesl at shesl.org>

With our best wishes,

The organisers





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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 17:48:33 2020
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 18:48:33 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CABdmZ4yybT7btMwmdyQEPmztx9K0nbF+t3abmkONmzskMtkT5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X421wv7XvjWQCEFbj+CoboWPU+Z-V7uNyLkiFXqPaVA4pg@mail.gmail.com>

Great, thanks Amy! (and David!)
Forwarding here to the Indology list for further comment and to answer
Dean's question.
Spain back in mostly lockdown, otherwise just fine

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 6:40 PM Amy Langenberg <langenap at eckerd.edu> wrote:

> Hello all! There are several different versions of that text, titled
> variously, and the section about rebirth quotes or paraphrases various
> abhidharma traditions. My best advice is to look at Robert Kritzer's
> edition of the Garbh?vakr?nti-s?tra and my study of that tradition.
>
> Robert Kritzer. Garbh?vakr?ntis?tra: The S?tra on Entry into the Womb.
> Studia Philologica Buddhica 31.
>
> Tokyo: The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 2014.
>
>
> Amy Paris Langenberg. Birth in Buddhism: The Suffering Fetus and Female
> Freedom. Critical Studies in Buddhism.
>
> Abingdon-on-Thames: Routledge Press, 2017.
>
>
> The following is also useful:
>
>
> Robert Kritzer. ?Garbh?vakr?ntau (?In the Garbh?vakr?nti?): Quotations
> from the Garbh?vakr?ntis?tra in
>
> Abhidharma Literature and the Yog?c?rabh?mi.? In The Yog?c?rabh?mi and the
> Yog?c?ras,
>
> edited by Ulrich Timme Kragh, 738?71. Cambridge: Harvard University,
> Department of Sanskrit
>
> and Indian Studies, 2013.
>
>
> Hope you all are doing okay, despite global pandemic and political chaos!
>
>
> Amy
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:18 PM David Gray <dgray at scu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jim,
>>
>> I'm almost positive that this was one of the text's we were reading on
>> Amy's behalf, maybe the *Ananda Entering the Womb Sutra *or a Tibetan
>> medical text. I suspect that Amy may be able to give you a better answer,
>> so I have copied her.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> David
>>
>> David B. Gray
>> Bernard J. Hanley Professor
>> Chair, Religious Studies Dept.
>> Santa Clara University
>> 500 El Camino Real
>> Santa Clara, CA 95053
>> Phone: 408-554-4343
>> Fax: 408-554-2387
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:49 AM James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No, I don't.
>>> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
>>> @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <
>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks James.
>>>>
>>>> Do you happen to remember the title?
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <
>>>> james.hartzell at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Dean
>>>>
>>>> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with
>>>> Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might
>>>> remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with
>>>> the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new
>>>> mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as
>>>> a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual
>>>> appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the
>>>> incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home
>>>> selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a
>>>> certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to
>>>> your question.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
>>>> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>>>>
>>>> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all
>>>> recommended.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch
>>>> via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dean,
>>>> another aspect may be helpful:
>>>>
>>>> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I
>>>> see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
>>>> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific
>>>> actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
>>>> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he
>>>> is a robber in hell 8 etc.
>>>> This description is adapted in several later works and found also his
>>>> way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still
>>>> observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>>>>
>>>> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
>>>> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of
>>>> your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Heiner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dean,
>>>>
>>>> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>>>>
>>>> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
>>>> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
>>>> unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN
>>>> III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).
>>>>
>>>> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both
>>>> the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman
>>>> in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions
>>>> might determine rebirth:
>>>>
>>>> weighty (garuka/guru)
>>>> near to death (?sanna)
>>>> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
>>>> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>>>>
>>>> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan)
>>>> 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
>>>> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the
>>>> unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done
>>>> anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the
>>>> time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play
>>>> (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to
>>>> near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past
>>>> action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come
>>>> into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand
>>>> the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from
>>>> the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the
>>>> perspective of a buddha it is not.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Rupert
>>>> --
>>>> *Rupert Gethin*
>>>> Professor of Buddhist Studies
>>>> University of Bristol
>>>>
>>>> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>>>>
>>>> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>>>>
>>>> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
>>>> process based on past karma.
>>>>
>>>> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
>>>> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
>>>> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
>>>> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so
>>>> strictly deterministic.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
>>>> idea ?
>>>>
>>>> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
>>>> reincarnation-based religions?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dean Anderson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://listinfo.indology.info__;!!MLMg-p0Z!RkVGKPXzFX8esz7JYLF6nTwzge3pYaczhW9UUqqQVeeh6F47HJ53o2s9VvM-8w$>
>>>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://listinfo.indology.info__;!!MLMg-p0Z!RkVGKPXzFX8esz7JYLF6nTwzge3pYaczhW9UUqqQVeeh6F47HJ53o2s9VvM-8w$> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Kochwww.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com__;!!MLMg-p0Z!RkVGKPXzFX8esz7JYLF6nTwzge3pYaczhW9UUqqQVeeh6F47HJ53o2uXZevNMA$>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://listinfo.indology.info__;!!MLMg-p0Z!RkVGKPXzFX8esz7JYLF6nTwzge3pYaczhW9UUqqQVeeh6F47HJ53o2s9VvM-8w$>(where
>>>> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://listinfo.indology.info__;!!MLMg-p0Z!RkVGKPXzFX8esz7JYLF6nTwzge3pYaczhW9UUqqQVeeh6F47HJ53o2s9VvM-8w$>
>>>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>>>> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
>>>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>>>> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>>> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
>>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>>> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>>>
>>>

-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


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From franco at uni-leipzig.de  Tue Nov 17 19:24:29 2020
From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 20:24:29 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB439619FD9B7B2788F0A66DFDA1E20@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20201117202429.Horde.-xWxoloWu0vsPpPfuMGzPbw@mail.uni-leipzig.de>



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,  
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist  
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it  
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do  
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as  
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with  
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of  
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall  
> <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a  
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David  
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or  
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson  
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell  
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text  
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time  
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on  
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual  
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or  
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the  
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall  
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's  
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,  
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness  
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as  
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich  
> Koch via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,  
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a  
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects  
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If  
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also  
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature  
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read  
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the  
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to  
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead  
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta  
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan  
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of  
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following  
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a  
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,  
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this  
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience  
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you  
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something  
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will  
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on  
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual  
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life  
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The  
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the  
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus  
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from  
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic  
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,  
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as  
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random  
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is  
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other  
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148







From RDavidson at fairfield.edu  Wed Nov 18 01:12:17 2020
From: RDavidson at fairfield.edu (Davidson, Ronald M.)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 01:12:17 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [External] Re: sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <20201117202429.Horde.-xWxoloWu0vsPpPfuMGzPbw@mail.uni-leipzig.de>
Message-ID: <8E6374E5-0B44-4171-962B-0AE754C343CD@fairfield.edu>

It may be worth noting that the ?Freudian? aspects of rebirth were described in the Saddharmasm?tyupasth?na-s?tra translation attributed to Gautama Praj??ruci and said to be completed between 538-541 CE.

Arthur Waley had already identified it and translated the section in Edward Conze, ed. Buddhist Text Through the Ages, Oxford: Bruno Cassirer, 1954, p. 283. This references T.721.17.200c13-28. Waley did identify the Abhidharmako?a as a source as well.

Given its articulation in two sources translated into Chinese within a few decades of each other (the Abhidharmako?a is said to be first translated by Param?rtha 563-568 CE), it is possible to hypothesize that the idea could be older than either text.

Best wishes,
Ron

______________________________________________
Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D.
Professor of Religious Studies
Co-director, Digital Humanities Consortium
345 Donnarumma Hall
Fairfield University, 1073 North Benson Road
Fairfield CT 06824-5195, U.S.A.
203-254-4000 x 2489

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Reply-To: Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 2:25 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>, "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>, Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>
Subject: [External] Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz9AcQ-ZX$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz9AcQ-ZX$>
Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz4g8-OL3$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz4g8-OL3$>

One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
rebirth as well:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEzxdzT434$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEzxdzT434$>

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of
James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall
<ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
Cc: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
semi-random process?

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David
Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
<eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com%3e>> wrote:
Thanks James.

Do you happen to remember the title?

Dean


On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
<james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com%3e>> wrote:


Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
wrote:
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.

Best,

Dean

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
Koch via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
wrote:



Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects
specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also
his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner


Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead
to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta
(MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following
categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (?sanna)
habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)

See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>
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_______________________________________________
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indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>
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--
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
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--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
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Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 01:42:19 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 20 18:42:19 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB439619FD9B7B2788F0A66DFDA1E20@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfxWgaBH79GCiXrudtdg-xth1w=m0ADKY+hgihAicfuHA@mail.gmail.com>

Call me old-fashioned, but the book with Filliozat's article is still for
sale with the publisher
<https://maisonneuve-adrien.com/livre/etudes-tib%C3%A9taines/45>.

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 02:40, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
A brief but important study is Filliozat's:

> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed Nov 18 08:26:25 2020
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 09:26:25 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [External] Re: sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <8E6374E5-0B44-4171-962B-0AE754C343CD@fairfield.edu>
Message-ID: <D1F29542-58D5-44EC-B0AB-7C075E09BA27@uclouvain.be>

On this Freudian aspects, there was already the 1934 article by S. SCHAYER "Pre-Aryan Elements in Indian Buddhism" reproduced in the book On Philosophizing of the Hindus: Selected papers, ed. M. MEJOR, Warszawa, 1988, p. 459-69 (p. 467), referred to by J.-M. Verpoorten, in his own detailed recent book on the topic: Acte re?tributif, Renaissance et Transmigration dans le bouddhisme des origines, Louvain-la-Neuve - Leuven: UCLouvain - Peeters, 2012 (Publications de l'Institut orientaliste de Louvain, 60: https://www.peeters-leuven.be/detail.php?search_key=9789042925915&series_number_str=60&lang=fr <https://www.peeters-leuven.be/detail.php?search_key=9789042925915&series_number_str=60&lang=fr> ), p. 43 fn. 171. 

> Le 18 nov. 2020 ? 02:12, Davidson, Ronald M. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> 
> It may be worth noting that the ?Freudian? aspects of rebirth were described in the Saddharmasm?tyupasth?na-s?tra translation attributed to Gautama Praj??ruci and said to be completed between 538-541 CE.
> 
> Arthur Waley had already identified it and translated the section in Edward Conze, ed. Buddhist Text Through the Ages, Oxford: Bruno Cassirer, 1954, p. 283. This references T.721.17.200c13-28. Waley did identify the Abhidharmako?a as a source as well.
> 
> Given its articulation in two sources translated into Chinese within a few decades of each other (the Abhidharmako?a is said to be first translated by Param?rtha 563-568 CE), it is possible to hypothesize that the idea could be older than either text.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Ron
> 
> ______________________________________________
> Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D.
> Professor of Religious Studies
> Co-director, Digital Humanities Consortium
> 345 Donnarumma Hall
> Fairfield University, 1073 North Benson Road
> Fairfield CT 06824-5195, U.S.A.
> 203-254-4000 x 2489
> 
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Reply-To: Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de>
> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 2:25 PM
> To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>, "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>, Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>
> Subject: [External] Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Matthew,
> It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
> but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
> dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
> Best wishes,
> Eli
> 
> 
> Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
> 
> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Findianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl%2F33562%2F__%3B!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz9AcQ-ZX%24&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cd14eafadd56f460227e108d88b5f24d3%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637412589074779446%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=UN6cfa%2BqdY4iXC20809k56VR5Dr%2BxC%2FHwOK1aoFWT2s%3D&amp;reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Findianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl%2F33562%2F__%3B!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz9AcQ-ZX%24&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cd14eafadd56f460227e108d88b5f24d3%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637412589074779446%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=mE224jWzpLge8zPCvtXcYSNxrjhfXn9E76Dju3clNhw%3D&amp;reserved=0>
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cairn.info%2Fl-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm__%3B!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz4g8-OL3%24&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cd14eafadd56f460227e108d88b5f24d3%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637412589074779446%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=5fKcpxxN1ir28wi0RhVOKUVwMGwylfxSzvNwGmV6QLU%3D&amp;reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fwww.cairn.info%2Fl-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm__%3B!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz4g8-OL3%24&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cd14eafadd56f460227e108d88b5f24d3%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637412589074779446%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=gfhG%2B2PCGevUGwTlYgwDk8HcLTnOi1pl1s09XtdwAa4%3D&amp;reserved=0>
> 
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
> rebirth as well:
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnotredame.academia.edu%2FRobertKritzer__%3B!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEzxdzT434%24&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cd14eafadd56f460227e108d88b5f24d3%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637412589074779446%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=1vNwPn%2FeGcUh1%2BnNk3JNTFTFbZGPMwcw2XfvUbbalt8%3D&amp;reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnotredame.academia.edu%2FRobertKritzer__%3B!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEzxdzT434%24&amp;data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cd14eafadd56f460227e108d88b5f24d3%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637412589074789403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=w8y4qaNkFfFwgWDcVwsyxOiwKJKSzveb577RwwLoK5s%3D&amp;reserved=0>
> 
> best,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall
> <ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
> semi-random process?
> 
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
> others might recall
> 
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com%3e>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
> 
> Do you happen to remember the title?
> 
> Dean
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com%3e>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Dean
> 
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
> 
> Cheers
> James
> 
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
> 
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
> Koch via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
> 
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
> 
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
> 
> Best
> Heiner
> 
> 
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
> 
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
> 
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
> translation).
> 
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
> 
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
> 
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
> 
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
> 
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
> 
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
> wrote:
> 
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
> 
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
> process based on past karma.
> 
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
> not so strictly deterministic.
> 
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
> 
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
> 
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
> reincarnation-based religions?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean Anderson
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
> 
> 
> 
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
> 
> 
> --
> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
> Schillerstr. 6
> 04109 Leipzig
> 
> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
> Fax +49 341 9737 148
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???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 08:25:59 2020
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 17:25:59 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] fallen leaves?
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrBksiJF8BXgSQWQQxvdLTki6Sbo=V_aUkCyTtdM51r-yA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

This morning, while on my constitutional walk around the lake near my
house, I sat and watched one tree shed most of its leaves in a few short
minutes. It reminds me of one of my favourite Sanskrit words - nipal??am -
as softly or silently as the falling of leaves.

As the leaves fell, they made this crackling/scraping noise while passing
the other soon to follow leaves.

It made me wonder:
1) Is there a word describing the sound of leaves not falling softly or
silently?
2) Is there a word for the sound of a leaf hitting the ground?


All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
(OICD), Kyoto
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University
Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
University

Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
 Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
 Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)







   -


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From westerhoff at cantab.net  Wed Nov 18 08:57:17 2020
From: westerhoff at cantab.net (Jan Westerhoff)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 08:57:17 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Future Leaders Fellowship in Indian Philosophy at Oxford
Message-ID: <47386.192.76.8.85.1605689837.squirrel@www.cantab.net>

Future Leaders Fellowships: Indian Philosophy and Mediaeval Islamic
Philosophy, University of Oxford


Call for expressions of interest



The Faculty of Philosophy at the University of Oxford seeks expressions of
interest from potential applicants in the field of Indian Philosophy, and
in the field of Mediaeval Islamic Philosophy, to the UKRI Future Leaders
Fellowship scheme
(https://www.ukri.org/opportunity/future-leaders-fellowships-round-6/).
The Faculty hopes to support one or more applicants in these areas in the
current round of the scheme.

The Future Leaders Fellowship is of four years? duration, it allows the
possibility of extension for up to a further three years, and it will come
with a college association. At the end of the fellowship, the Faculty
intends to create new permanent posts, with a corresponding Area of
Specialisation, which the holder of the Future Leaders Fellowship will be
eligible to apply for. The intended start date for the Fellowships is
October 2021.



The Faculty intends these Fellowships to play a key role in broadening the
areas of research and teaching currently pursued within philosophy in
Oxford, whilst retaining connection and dialogue with our existing areas
of strength in research and teaching
(https://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/research;
https://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses ).



Potential applicants should have an ambitious research programme in Indian
Philosophy or in Mediaeval Islamic Philosophy which is suitable for
development over four or more years, and they should have an interest in
developing their subject-area both in terms of research and in teaching in
Oxford.



Applicants should hold, or be close to completion of, a doctoral degree
(PhD or DPhil) in philosophy or a closely related subject. In addition to
outstanding potential for research in the relevant area, they should
either already have, or show evidence of the commitment and potential to
acquire during the course of the Fellowship, the ability to contribute to
elements of the core undergraduate philosophy curriculum in Oxford (see
https://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/course-descriptions-first-public-examination-fpe
;
https://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/course-descriptions-finals#collapse390701
for an outline of the curriculum).



We request expressions of interest by Midday UK time (GMT) on Friday 27
November 2020 to admin at philosophy.ox.ac.uk.



Expressions of interest should contain a full up-to-date CV (including as
relevant teaching experience and interests) and a brief outline statement
(no longer than 500 words) of the proposed programme of research. Please
include links to your strongest piece, or pieces, of research, published
or otherwise, and if possible, please request a referee (or referees) who
is (are) able to comment on the strength of your research to send a letter
of reference by the same date. We will contact successful candidates no
later than 4 December, in order to meet the UKRI scheme?s initial deadline
of 10 December. We will work with successful candidates to develop their
full application in time for the final UKRI deadline of 19 January 2021.



If you have any questions, please contact the Chair of the Philosophy
Faculty Board, Professor Chris Timpson (christopher.timpson at bnc.ox.ac.uk)




***************************
JC Westerhoff
Lady Margaret Hall
University of Oxford
Norham Gardens
Oxford OX2 6QA
United Kingdom

www.janwesterhoff.net
westerhoff at cantab.net






From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 09:31:33 2020
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 10:31:33 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <20201117202429.Horde.-xWxoloWu0vsPpPfuMGzPbw@mail.uni-leipzig.de>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X41yAvLpM_sWXVWwXLEHH28gLO+4ruNHXGPbOdr=akwoFw@mail.gmail.com>

Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is
karma-deterministic or not:
In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all
major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study
about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from
something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic
and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random,
freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved
(aka computational neuroscience).
If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a
cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western
scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan
traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions
come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple
of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow
capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably
be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps
mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might
be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be
deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Matthew,
> It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
> but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
> dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
> Best wishes,
> Eli
>
>
> Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>
> > The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
> > tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
> > up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
> > thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
> > well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> > https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> > Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> > Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> > https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
> >
> > One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
> > rebirth as well:
> > https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
> >
> > best,
> > Matthew
> >
> > Matthew Kapstein
> > Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> >
> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> > The University of Chicago
> > ________________________________
> > From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> > James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> > To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall
> > <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> > Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
> > semi-random process?
> >
> > No, I don't.
> > Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David
> > Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
> > others might recall
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
> > <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > Thanks James.
> >
> > Do you happen to remember the title?
> >
> > Dean
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
> > <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Dean
> >
> > Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
> > with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
> > might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
> > reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
> > attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
> > towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
> > house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
> > correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
> > karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
> > and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
> > or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
> >
> > Cheers
> > James
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> > wrote:
> > Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
> > far as the claim that I'd heard about.
> >
> > I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all
> recommended.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> >
> > On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
> > Koch via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dean,
> > another aspect may be helpful:
> >
> > because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
> > I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
> > systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects
> > specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> > When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
> > he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> > This description is adapted in several later works and found also
> > his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
> > and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
> >
> > I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
> > Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
> > answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
> >
> > Best
> > Heiner
> >
> >
> > Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> > Dear Dean,
> >
> > Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
> >
> > The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
> > pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead
> > to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta
> > (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
> > translation).
> >
> > Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
> > both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following
> > categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
> > being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
> >
> > weighty (garuka/guru)
> > near to death (?sanna)
> > habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> > something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
> >
> > See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
> > Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
> >
> > In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
> > life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
> > the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
> > haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
> > done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
> > tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
> > whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
> > actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
> > may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
> > sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
> > complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
> > from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
> > the perspective of a buddha it is not.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Rupert
> > --
> > Rupert Gethin
> > Professor of Buddhist Studies
> > University of Bristol
> >
> > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
> >
> > On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
> >
> > Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
> > process based on past karma.
> >
> > I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
> > consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
> > something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
> > collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
> > not so strictly deterministic.
> >
> > I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
> >
> > Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
> idea ?
> >
> > Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
> > reincarnation-based religions?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean Anderson
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> > options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> > options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<
> http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> > options or unsubscribe)
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> > options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> > Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> > Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
> Schillerstr. 6
> 04109 Leipzig
>
> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
> Fax +49 341 9737 148
>
>
>

-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Nov 18 09:45:16 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 09:45:16 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X41yAvLpM_sWXVWwXLEHH28gLO+4ruNHXGPbOdr=akwoFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB4396688B74B305927E8B80F0A1E10@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I seem to recall aspects of these questions discussed from a phenomenological perspective in Alexander Piatagorsky,
The Buddhist Philosophy of Thought (1984).

In any case, some Tibetan traditions do attribute to very advanced adepts the ability to choose their rebirth destinies, and base this to some extent on the accounts, e.g., in the Lalitavistara, of the Buddha-to-be selecting the conditions - time, place, parents, etc. - of his birth in Kapilavastu.

However, because one cannot determine the actions of others, it is generally admitted that there can be no perfect control of the process. The story of the rebirth of the third Karmapa hierarch following the botched rebirth of his predecessor is often cited. For a recent discussion, see Ruth Gamble, Reincarnation in Tibetan Buddhism, ch. 5.

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 3:31 AM
To: Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de>
Cc: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:
In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).
If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de<mailto:franco at uni-leipzig.de>> wrote:


Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall
> <ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>  @David
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
> Koch via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com><http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148




--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



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From acchoda at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 09:50:23 2020
From: acchoda at gmail.com (David Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 09:50:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Update onrequest for Les duha de Dhola Maru pdf
Message-ID: <CAA=_wHdFtCOC7YwZ43RDSYQcq0AKr-3SDd3sG9fC20StvRr7pQ@mail.gmail.com>

The librarian of the French Institute at Pondicherry kindly informs me that
Vaudeville?s 1962 book is still available for purchase at the Institute.

I have now recalled that a revised, enlarged, popularised and less
technical, account of the Duhas is available as the final chapter in
Vaudeville?s *Myths, Saints and Legends in Medieval India* (O.U.P 1996),
with an English translation, but not the Rajasthani text of the ballard.
There is a footnote to this concluding chapter of Vaudeville?s selected
essays by the editor stating that this essay was first published in *Bharatiya
Vidya*,* Munshi Indological Felicitation Volume*, vol. xx-xxi (1960-61),
pp. 225-31. (It can be found on archive.org by searching for Munshi
Indological Volume.) In the Munshi Volume Vaudeville explains that that
1960-61 essay is an English translation of the introduction to her
forthcoming book, Les duha de Dhola Maru.



David Smith

-- 
Dr David Smith
Reader in South Asian Religions (retired)
Lancaster University
UK
https://lancaster.academia.edu/DavidSmith
acchoda at gmail.com


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From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk  Wed Nov 18 10:22:10 2020
From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 10:22:10 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <20201117202429.Horde.-xWxoloWu0vsPpPfuMGzPbw@mail.uni-leipzig.de>
Message-ID: <D07C7079-FD73-47BE-AB95-D2109434DF4F@bristol.ac.uk>

Dear Eli,

I don?t understand why you suggest Pradhan has a lacuna here. The relevant passage is found at Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan 1967) 126, 18?24 = (Pradhan 1975) 126, 20?27.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies

University of Bristol
Department of Religion and Theology
3 Woodland Road
Bristol BS8 1TB, UK

Phone: +44 117 928 8169
Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 17 Nov 2020, at 19:24, Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab, but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm

One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with rebirth as well:
https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Thanks James.

Do you happen to remember the title?

Dean


On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.

Best,

Dean

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner


Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (?sanna)
habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)

See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148



_______________________________________________
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INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
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From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de  Wed Nov 18 11:00:52 2020
From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 12:00:52 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vienna post-doc position Pre-modern South Asian Studies (Indology)
In-Reply-To: <00b04dd0-70e6-d02f-d9fb-ef75e273fa8b@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <0F1DC2ED-CCB2-4B54-90C9-298C133CE645@uni-tuebingen.de>



> Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:
> 
> Von: Judith Starecek <judith.starecek at univie.ac.at>
> Betreff: Job announcement University Assistant ("post doc")
> Datum: 18. November 2020 um 11:01:11 MEZ
> An: istb at univie.ac.at
> 
> English below!
> -------------------------------------
> Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
> 
> die Universit?t Wien schreibt die Stelle eines/r Universit?tsassistenten/in ("post doc") im Forschungsbereich des vormodernen S?dasien (Indologie) am Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde aus. 
> 
> Den Ausschreibungstext finden Sie in deutsch und englisch als PDF-Attachments sowie unter dem Link: 
> https://univis.univie.ac.at/ausschreibungstellensuche/flow/bew_ausschreibung-flow;jsessionid=6F60C1D33195EF42BCF36321C22791D3?_flowExecutionKey=_c52BC7CAA-E3A8-B517-B872-C026805120FD_k6F0AAEA9-6F82-ECA0-F75D-E90BBD58FAEE&tid=82530.28&_language=de <https://univis.univie.ac.at/ausschreibungstellensuche/flow/bew_ausschreibung-flow;jsessionid=6F60C1D33195EF42BCF36321C22791D3?_flowExecutionKey=_c52BC7CAA-E3A8-B517-B872-C026805120FD_k6F0AAEA9-6F82-ECA0-F75D-E90BBD58FAEE&tid=82530.28&_language=de>  
> 
> Die Bewerbungsfrist (Bewerbungen sind ?ber das Jobcenter der Universit?t Wien einzureichen) l?uft bis zum 23.12.2020.
> 
> Wir bitten Sie, die Ausschreibung in Ihrem Wirkungskreis bekannt zu machen und besonders an qualifizierte  Kandidaten weiterzuleiten. 
> 
> Vielen Dank! MfG, 
> Judith Starecek 
> Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde
> Universit?t Wien
> Spitalgasse 2, Hof 2.1
> 1090 Wien
> T +43-1-4277 43502
> F +43-1-4277 9435
> stb.univie.ac.at
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Dear Madam/Sir, 
> 
> The University of Vienna is advertising a post-doc position (Universit?tsassistent/in ; University Assistant) in Pre-modern South Asian Studies (Indology) at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies. 
> 
> For further details, see the attachments in German and English. Both texts can also be found on the website of the University's Job Center at 
>  https://univis.univie.ac.at/ausschreibungstellensuche/flow/bew_ausschreibung-flow;jsessionid=6F60C1D33195EF42BCF36321C22791D3?_flowExecutionKey=_c52BC7CAA-E3A8-B517-B872-C026805120FD_k6F0AAEA9-6F82-ECA0-F75D-E90BBD58FAEE&tid=82530.28&_language=en <https://univis.univie.ac.at/ausschreibungstellensuche/flow/bew_ausschreibung-flow;jsessionid=6F60C1D33195EF42BCF36321C22791D3?_flowExecutionKey=_c52BC7CAA-E3A8-B517-B872-C026805120FD_k6F0AAEA9-6F82-ECA0-F75D-E90BBD58FAEE&tid=82530.28&_language=en>  
> Applications may be submitted digitally via the Job Center no later than December 23, 2020. 
> 
> Please publicize this advertisement at your institution and forward it to qualified candidates. 
> 
> With many thanks and best regards, 
> Judith Starecek
> 
> -- 
> Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
> University of Vienna
> Spitalgasse 2, Hof 2.1
> 1090 Wien
> T +43-1-4277 43502
> F +43-1-4277 9435
> stb.univie.ac.at
> 
> 
>  <x-msg://47/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>






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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Nov 18 14:44:25 2020
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 14:44:25 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
In-Reply-To: <CAGXtT5xv_qi73UFowX=KPMOYUBzC5kGtMBkRsJBHpidj58hnTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a131d678a23404ea5047e8d48c5ccc5@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear List members,

I forward a message disseminated on the Classical Tamil list about Alexander Dubiansky, who has died this morning.

I know he also had many friends among Sanskritists

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


________________________________
Van: ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr <ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr> namens Nikolai Gordiychuk <jayankondar at gmail.com>
Verzonden: woensdag 18 november 2020 10:22
Aan: ctamil at services.cnrs.fr
Onderwerp: Re: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)

Very sad news.
Dr. Alexander Dubianski (27.04.1941-18.11.2020) passed away today after suffering from pneumonia caused by coronavirus.
Colleagues, students and friends knew him as a very kind and generous person with great love for life, Tamil language and poetry.
In youth Dr. Dubianski aspired to become a musician and studied at the Moscow Conservatoire, however, his education was interrupted by military service.  After returning from the army, he graduated and did his PhD at the Moscow State University, where he got interested in Indology and later taught Tamil language and literature for more than 40 years. He also taught at the Russian State University for the Humanities.
He is most known for his book ?Ritual and Mythological Sources of the Early Tamil Poetry? Groningen, 2000.
During the last 12 years Dr.Dubianski was conducting an informal seminar on Classical Tamil literature, in which a circle of his former students participated.  His last unfinished work was full Russian translation of Na??i?ai.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr<mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
Dear CTamil list members,

it is with great sadness that I have to announce that our dear colleague
and friend Alexander Dubiansky (b. 1941) died in Moscow this morning
because of Covid.

We shall miss him very much.

I include a picture taken in Paris on 28th september 2019 during the 4th
European Tamil conference. This was the last occasion for Eva and me to
meet with him face to face.

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in M?ssen)

https://twitter.com/JLC1956


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Nov 18 14:48:37 2020
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 14:48:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Alexander Dubyankiy
Message-ID: <676ca65e73ed4c838b56afcf8aa3de48@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Something went wrong.  My intention was to forward the original message from Gordiychuk only, without the reactions.

H


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 15:07:20 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 08:07:20 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X41yAvLpM_sWXVWwXLEHH28gLO+4ruNHXGPbOdr=akwoFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd5YHFQaP9bb2QpghOEiAk9uD=SXmc3Bv3Ctd6MgXeYzg@mail.gmail.com>

It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of
taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western
scientifically-oriented sense".  First, let's get rid of "western".
Everybody does science and has done for a couple of centuries, so it's been
global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a
statement about historical origins.  Moving on, the idea of equating
reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about
pram??as, I think.  In his famous essay, ?The Purpose of Philosophy?,
Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer
them.  Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g.,
mathematics or chess).  But the third category is questions about which we
are uncertain about how to answer them.  Those are philosophical questions
(I would say, metaphysical questions).   So your proposal for examining
reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as
an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That
means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing
conjectures.

Best,
Dominik


On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is
> karma-deterministic or not:
> In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all
> major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study
> about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from
> something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic
> and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random,
> freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved
> (aka computational neuroscience).
> If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a
> cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western
> scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan
> traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions
> come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple
> of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow
> capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably
> be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps
> mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might
> be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be
> deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Dear Matthew,
>> It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
>> but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
>> dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eli
>>
>>
>> Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>
>> > The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
>> > tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
>> > up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
>> > thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
>> > well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
>> > https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
>> > Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
>> > Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
>> > https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>> >
>> > One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
>> > rebirth as well:
>> > https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>> >
>> > best,
>> > Matthew
>> >
>> > Matthew Kapstein
>> > Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
>> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>> >
>> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> > The University of Chicago
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> > James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
>> > To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall
>> > <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
>> > Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
>> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
>> > semi-random process?
>> >
>> > No, I don't.
>> > Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David
>> > Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
>> > others might recall
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
>> > <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> > Thanks James.
>> >
>> > Do you happen to remember the title?
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
>> > <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Dean
>> >
>> > Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
>> > with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
>> > might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
>> > reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
>> > attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
>> > towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
>> > house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
>> > correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
>> > karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
>> > and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
>> > or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > James
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> > wrote:
>> > Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
>> > far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>> >
>> > I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all
>> recommended.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> > On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
>> > Koch via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear Dean,
>> > another aspect may be helpful:
>> >
>> > because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
>> > I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
>> > systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects
>> > specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
>> > When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
>> > he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
>> > This description is adapted in several later works and found also
>> > his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
>> > and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>> >
>> > I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
>> > Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
>> > answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>> >
>> > Best
>> > Heiner
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
>> > Dear Dean,
>> >
>> > Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>> >
>> > The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
>> > pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead
>> > to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta
>> > (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
>> > translation).
>> >
>> > Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
>> > both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following
>> > categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
>> > being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>> >
>> > weighty (garuka/guru)
>> > near to death (?sanna)
>> > habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
>> > something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>> >
>> > See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
>> > Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>> >
>> > In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
>> > life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
>> > the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
>> > haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
>> > done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
>> > tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
>> > whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
>> > actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
>> > may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
>> > sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
>> > complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
>> > from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
>> > the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Rupert
>> > --
>> > Rupert Gethin
>> > Professor of Buddhist Studies
>> > University of Bristol
>> >
>> > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>> >
>> > On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>> >
>> > Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
>> > process based on past karma.
>> >
>> > I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
>> > consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
>> > something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
>> > collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
>> > not so strictly deterministic.
>> >
>> > I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>> >
>> > Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
>> idea ?
>> >
>> > Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
>> > reincarnation-based religions?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Dean Anderson
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
>> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> > options or unsubscribe)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
>> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> > options or unsubscribe)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
>> > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<
>> http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
>> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> > options or unsubscribe)
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info>
>> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> > options or unsubscribe)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>> > Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
>> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>> > Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
>> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
>> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
>> Schillerstr. 6
>> 04109 Leipzig
>>
>> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
>> Fax +49 341 9737 148
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Wed Nov 18 16:29:30 2020
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 17:29:30 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
In-Reply-To: <3a131d678a23404ea5047e8d48c5ccc5@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbqHPA6HN9-RmdwNodOfy29pYbfjLoOC8yStjFYutQJBNA@mail.gmail.com>

What a great loss! I cannot believe that! He was such a wonderful man, so
wise,  so profound, and so kind, with this unique Russian sense of humor. I
will miss him very much.

Joanna

---

Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz

Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies

Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies

Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw

ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28

00-927 Warszawa , Poland

Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages

College of Human Sciences

UNISA

Pretoria, RSA

Member of Academia Europaea

https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


?r., 18 lis 2020 o 15:45 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> Dear List members,
>
> I forward a message disseminated on the Classical Tamil list about
> Alexander Dubiansky, who has died this morning.
>
> I know he also had many friends among Sanskritists
>
> Herman
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *Van:* ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr <ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr>
> namens Nikolai Gordiychuk <jayankondar at gmail.com>
> *Verzonden:* woensdag 18 november 2020 10:22
> *Aan:* ctamil at services.cnrs.fr
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
>
>
> Very sad news.
>
> Dr. Alexander Dubianski (27.04.1941-18.11.2020) passed away today after
> suffering from pneumonia caused by coronavirus.
>
> Colleagues, students and friends knew him as a very kind and generous
> person with great love for life, Tamil language and poetry.
>
> In youth Dr. Dubianski aspired to become a musician and studied at the
> Moscow Conservatoire, however, his education was interrupted by military
> service.  After returning from the army, he graduated and did his PhD at
> the Moscow State University, where he got interested in Indology and later
> taught Tamil language and literature for more than 40 years. He also taught
> at the Russian State University for the Humanities.
>
> He is most known for his book ?Ritual and Mythological Sources of the
> Early Tamil Poetry? Groningen, 2000.
>
> During the last 12 years Dr.Dubianski was conducting an informal seminar
> on Classical Tamil literature, in which a circle of his former students
> participated.  His last unfinished work was full Russian translation of
> Na??i?ai.
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jean-Luc Chevillard <
> jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
>
>> Dear CTamil list members,
>>
>> it is with great sadness that I have to announce that our dear colleague
>> and friend Alexander Dubiansky (b. 1941) died in Moscow this morning
>> because of Covid.
>>
>> We shall miss him very much.
>>
>> I include a picture taken in Paris on 28th september 2019 during the 4th
>> European Tamil conference. This was the last occasion for Eva and me to
>> meet with him face to face.
>>
>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in M?ssen)
>>
>> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From aparpola at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 17:22:52 2020
From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 19:22:52 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
In-Reply-To: <CAAPrgbqHPA6HN9-RmdwNodOfy29pYbfjLoOC8yStjFYutQJBNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A0EAA0E8-597B-4B7D-A466-2ED0D877AEFA@gmail.com>

I?m very sorry to hear about the passing away of my friend Sasha Dubyanskij. 
Among his principal works I would like to mention the new Russian handbook of the Dravidian languages, of which he was the chief editor:
Dubyanskij, A. M., E. B. Markus, N. V. Gurov & A. A. Kibrik (eds.) 2013. Yazyki mira: Dravidijskie yazyki. Moskva: Academia. 584 pp. Hb ISBN 978-5-87444-369-6. 

Asko Parpola

> On 18 Nov 2020, at 18.29, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> What a great loss! I cannot believe that! He was such a wonderful man, so wise,  so profound, and so kind, with this unique Russian sense of humor. I will miss him very much. 
> 
> Joanna
> 
> ---
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw  
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland
> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
> College of Human Sciences
> UNISA
> Pretoria, RSA
> Member of Academia Europaea  
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz <https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz>
> 
> ?r., 18 lis 2020 o 15:45 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> napisa?(a):
> Dear List members,
> 
> I forward a message disseminated on the Classical Tamil list about Alexander Dubiansky, who has died this morning.
> 
> I know he also had many friends among Sanskritists
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> 
> Van: ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr <mailto:ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr> <ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr <mailto:ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr>> namens Nikolai Gordiychuk <jayankondar at gmail.com <mailto:jayankondar at gmail.com>>
> Verzonden: woensdag 18 november 2020 10:22
> Aan: ctamil at services.cnrs.fr <mailto:ctamil at services.cnrs.fr>
> Onderwerp: Re: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
>  
> Very sad news.
> 
> Dr. Alexander Dubianski (27.04.1941-18.11.2020) passed away today after suffering from pneumonia caused by coronavirus.   
> 
> Colleagues, students and friends knew him as a very kind and generous person with great love for life, Tamil language and poetry.
> 
> In youth Dr. Dubianski aspired to become a musician and studied at the Moscow Conservatoire, however, his education was interrupted by military service.  After returning from the army, he graduated and did his PhD at the Moscow State University, where he got interested in Indology and later taught Tamil language and literature for more than 40 years. He also taught at the Russian State University for the Humanities.
> 
> He is most known for his book ?Ritual and Mythological Sources of the Early Tamil Poetry? Groningen, 2000.
> 
> During the last 12 years Dr.Dubianski was conducting an informal seminar on Classical Tamil literature, in which a circle of his former students participated.  His last unfinished work was full Russian translation of Na??i?ai.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
> Dear CTamil list members,
> 
> it is with great sadness that I have to announce that our dear colleague 
> and friend Alexander Dubiansky (b. 1941) died in Moscow this morning 
> because of Covid.
> 
> We shall miss him very much.
> 
> I include a picture taken in Paris on 28th september 2019 during the 4th 
> European Tamil conference. This was the last occasion for Eva and me to 
> meet with him face to face.
> 
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in M?ssen)
> 
> https://twitter.com/JLC1956 <https://twitter.com/JLC1956>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From franco at uni-leipzig.de  Wed Nov 18 17:38:13 2020
From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 18:38:13 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <D07C7079-FD73-47BE-AB95-D2109434DF4F@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20201118183813.Horde.XxqmDsV-zcVMW5QEQJD9TUX@mail.uni-leipzig.de>



Dear Rupert,
Pradhan?s edition (1975, p. 126.22-23) reads:
? pu?sa? sata? pau?sno r?ga utpadyate pitari. viparyay?t pratigha?.

However, the lacuna is easy to reconstruct with the help of the Vy?khy?:
?pu?sa? sata? pau?sno r?ga utpadyate m?tari, striy?? saty?? strai?o  
r?ga utpadyate pitari, viparyay?t pratigha?.

When the intermediary being is a male, a masculine desire for
his mother and repulsion (pratigha) for his father arise in him; when it is a
female, she has a feminine desire for her father and repulsion for her
mother.

See also my Compassion and Rebirth pp. 70-71.
With best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear Eli,
>
> I don?t understand why you suggest Pradhan has a lacuna here. The  
> relevant passage is found at Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan 1967) 126, 18?24 =  
> (Pradhan 1975) 126, 20?27.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
>
> University of Bristol
> Department of Religion and Theology
> 3 Woodland Road
> Bristol BS8 1TB, UK
>
> Phone: +44 117 928 8169
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 17 Nov 2020, at 19:24, Eli Franco via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Matthew,
> It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,  
> but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
> dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
> Best wishes,
> Eli
>
>
> Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
>
> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist  
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it  
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do  
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as  
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with  
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of  
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall  
> <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a  
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David  
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or  
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson  
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell  
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text  
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time  
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on  
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual  
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or  
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the  
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall  
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's  
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,  
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness  
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as  
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich  
> Koch via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,  
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a  
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects  
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If  
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also  
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature  
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read  
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the  
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to  
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead  
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta  
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan  
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of  
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following  
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a  
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,  
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this  
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience  
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you  
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something  
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will  
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on  
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual  
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life  
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The  
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the  
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus  
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from  
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic  
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,  
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as  
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random  
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is  
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other  
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>  
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
> Schillerstr. 6
> 04109 Leipzig
>
> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
> Fax +49 341 9737 148
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list  
> options or unsubscribe)


-- 
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Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148







From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk  Wed Nov 18 19:54:25 2020
From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 19:54:25 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <20201118183813.Horde.XxqmDsV-zcVMW5QEQJD9TUX@mail.uni-leipzig.de>
Message-ID: <54F60295-D6A0-4A8F-95C8-F5E753211046@bristol.ac.uk>

Dear Eli,

Thanks for pointing this out.

Curiously, this lacuna is only in Pradhan?s 2nd edition (1975). Pradhan?s 1st edition (1967), 126.20?21 reads precisely as you suggest:

pu?sa? sata? pau?sno r?ga utpadyate m?tari striy?? saty?? strai?o r?ga udpadyate pitari | viparyay?t pratigha? |

Best wishes,

Rupert

--
Rupert Gethin

Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol
Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 18 Nov 2020, at 17:38, Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de<mailto:franco at uni-leipzig.de>> wrote:



Dear Rupert,
Pradhan?s edition (1975, p. 126.22-23) reads:
? pu?sa? sata? pau?sno r?ga utpadyate pitari. viparyay?t pratigha?.

However, the lacuna is easy to reconstruct with the help of the Vy?khy?:
?pu?sa? sata? pau?sno r?ga utpadyate m?tari, striy?? saty?? strai?o r?ga utpadyate pitari, viparyay?t pratigha?.

When the intermediary being is a male, a masculine desire for
his mother and repulsion (pratigha) for his father arise in him; when it is a
female, she has a feminine desire for her father and repulsion for her
mother.

See also my Compassion and Rebirth pp. 70-71.
With best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

Dear Eli,

I don?t understand why you suggest Pradhan has a lacuna here. The relevant passage is found at Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan 1967) 126, 18?24 = (Pradhan 1975) 126, 20?27.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies

University of Bristol
Department of Religion and Theology
3 Woodland Road
Bristol BS8 1TB, UK

Phone: +44 117 928 8169
Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 17 Nov 2020, at 19:24, Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab, but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm

One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with rebirth as well:
https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
Cc: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Thanks James.

Do you happen to remember the title?

Dean


On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.

Best,

Dean

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner


Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (?sanna)
habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)

See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson


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--
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/><http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/>>

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--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148



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--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148



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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Wed Nov 18 20:20:08 2020
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 20 21:20:08 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
In-Reply-To: <A0EAA0E8-597B-4B7D-A466-2ED0D877AEFA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvmAxfkDvP+8MVE9x1UrLOfecumRjdFNgEAFaVCA1Jp0w@mail.gmail.com>

R.I.P. Alexander ---

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Wolny
od wirus?w. www.avast.com
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

?r., 18 lis 2020 o 18:23 Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> I?m very sorry to hear about the passing away of my friend Sasha
> Dubyanskij.
> Among his principal works I would like to mention the new Russian handbook
> of the Dravidian languages, of which he was the chief editor:
> Dubyanskij, A. M., E. B. Markus, N. V. Gurov & A. A. Kibrik (eds.) 2013. *Yazyki
> mira: Dravidijskie yazyki.* Moskva: Academia. 584 pp. Hb ISBN
> 978-5-87444-369-6.
>
> Asko Parpola
>
> On 18 Nov 2020, at 18.29, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> What a great loss! I cannot believe that! He was such a wonderful man, so
> wise,  so profound, and so kind, with this unique Russian sense of humor. I
> will miss him very much.
>
> Joanna
>
> ---
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland
> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
> College of Human Sciences
> UNISA
> Pretoria, RSA
> Member of Academia Europaea
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
> ?r., 18 lis 2020 o 15:45 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear List members,
>>
>> I forward a message disseminated on the Classical Tamil list about
>> Alexander Dubiansky, who has died this morning.
>>
>> I know he also had many friends among Sanskritists
>>
>> Herman
>>
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *Van:* ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr <ctamil-request at services.cnrs.fr>
>> namens Nikolai Gordiychuk <jayankondar at gmail.com>
>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 18 november 2020 10:22
>> *Aan:* ctamil at services.cnrs.fr
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
>>
>>
>> Very sad news.
>>
>> Dr. Alexander Dubianski (27.04.1941-18.11.2020) passed away today after
>> suffering from pneumonia caused by coronavirus.
>>
>> Colleagues, students and friends knew him as a very kind and generous
>> person with great love for life, Tamil language and poetry.
>>
>> In youth Dr. Dubianski aspired to become a musician and studied at the
>> Moscow Conservatoire, however, his education was interrupted by military
>> service.  After returning from the army, he graduated and did his PhD at
>> the Moscow State University, where he got interested in Indology and later
>> taught Tamil language and literature for more than 40 years. He also taught
>> at the Russian State University for the Humanities.
>>
>> He is most known for his book ?Ritual and Mythological Sources of the
>> Early Tamil Poetry? Groningen, 2000.
>>
>> During the last 12 years Dr.Dubianski was conducting an informal seminar
>> on Classical Tamil literature, in which a circle of his former students
>> participated.  His last unfinished work was full Russian translation of
>> Na??i?ai.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jean-Luc Chevillard <
>> jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear CTamil list members,
>>>
>>> it is with great sadness that I have to announce that our dear colleague
>>> and friend Alexander Dubiansky (b. 1941) died in Moscow this morning
>>> because of Covid.
>>>
>>> We shall miss him very much.
>>>
>>> I include a picture taken in Paris on 28th september 2019 during the 4th
>>> European Tamil conference. This was the last occasion for Eva and me to
>>> meet with him face to face.
>>>
>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (in M?ssen)
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> committee)
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> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> committee)
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> unsubscribe)
>

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od wirus?w. www.avast.com
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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 19 03:24:20 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 03:24:20 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cd5YHFQaP9bb2QpghOEiAk9uD=SXmc3Bv3Ctd6MgXeYzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1919177432.85231.1605756260418@mail.yahoo.com>

 Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.? That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.
My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.
As you rightly pointed out, Dominik, this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.
There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.

I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.
Best,
Dean

    On Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 8:38:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
 
 It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense".? First, let's get rid of "western".? Everybody does science and has done for a couple of centuries, so it's been global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a statement about historical origins.? Moving on, the idea of equating reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about pram??as, I think.? In his famous essay, ?The Purpose of Philosophy?, Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer them.? Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g., mathematics or chess).? But the third category is questions about which we are uncertain about how to answer them.? Those are philosophical questions (I would say, metaphysical questions).?? So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.? That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.
Best,Dominik


On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.? A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?? b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma? 

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,? 
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist? 
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it? 
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do? 
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as? 
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with? 
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of? 
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall? 
> <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a? 
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>? @David? 
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>? @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or? 
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson? 
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell? 
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text? 
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time? 
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on? 
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual? 
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or? 
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the? 
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall? 
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's? 
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,? 
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness? 
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY? 
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>? 
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as? 
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich? 
> Koch via INDOLOGY? 
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>? 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,? 
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)? a? 
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects? 
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If? 
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also? 
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature? 
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read? 
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the? 
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to? 
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead? 
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta? 
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan? 
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of? 
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following? 
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a? 
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,? 
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this? 
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience? 
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you? 
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something? 
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will? 
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on? 
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual? 
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life? 
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The? 
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the? 
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus? 
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from? 
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY? 
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>? 
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic? 
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,? 
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as? 
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random? 
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is? 
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other? 
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>? 
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>? 
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>? 
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>? 
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148





-- 
James Hartzell, PhD(2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

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From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca  Thu Nov 19 03:51:28 2020
From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan S. Gillon, Prof.)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 03:51:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <1919177432.85231.1605756260418@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <YQBPR0101MB177953553055BAB7F7AF9D8387E00@YQBPR0101MB1779.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

I would like to add my two cents, for what it is worth, to this interesting question. I agree with Dean Anderson that existing conceptions of the physical might prejudice how the view that there is rebirth can be empirically tested. But it is also useful to bear in mind that what is taken to be physical and material has changed over time. The void, for example, which is the antithesis of the material,
in at least one acceptation of the word, was ruled out as an impossibility by Aristotelians, and Cartesians, eventually being adopted as part of mainstream science. Moreover, no one's conception
of the physical in the 16th century would have included radiation as it was conceived of in the 19th century by Faraday and Maxwell; and though it is physical, it is not material. It could very well be that 50 years from now our conception of the physical might include what we now refer to as the mental. In short, it could turn out that, if the question is treated empirically, the answer might end up altering what it is that we count as physical
and material.

Best wishes,
Brendan

Brendan S. Gillon                            email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
Department of Linguistics
McGill University                             tel.:  001 514 398 4868
1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
Montreal, Quebec                           fax.:  001 514 398 7088
H3A 1A7  CANADA

webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: November 18, 2020 10:24 PM
To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>; Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.

My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.

As you rightly pointed out, Dominik, this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.

There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.

I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.

Best,

Dean

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 8:38:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:


It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense".  First, let's get rid of "western".  Everybody does science and has done for a couple of centuries, so it's been global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a statement about historical origins.  Moving on, the idea of equating reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about pram??as, I think.  In his famous essay, ?The Purpose of Philosophy?, Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer them.  Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g., mathematics or chess).  But the third category is questions about which we are uncertain about how to answer them.  Those are philosophical questions (I would say, metaphysical questions).   So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.

Best,
Dominik


On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:
In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).
If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de<mailto:franco at uni-leipzig.de>> wrote:


Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall
> <ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>  @David
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
> Koch via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
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> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
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> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com><http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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> options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
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> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148




--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 19 04:15:31 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 04:15:31 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <YQBPR0101MB177953553055BAB7F7AF9D8387E00@YQBPR0101MB1779.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <149279077.98334.1605759331575@mail.yahoo.com>

 I agree, Brendan, that in the future science may be more open. In fact, it is slowly happening right now.
Like you, I also like to use the example of Michael Faraday. When he first proposed the idea of invisible magnetic fields that extend throughout space, he was mocked by the Royal Society for his "metaphysics". It took Maxwell's brilliant mathematics, and probably his being a member of the nobility didn't hurt, to get them to come around.
These days, of course, some physicists consider fields to be more real than "matter".

Best,
Dean

    On Thursday, November 19, 2020, 9:21:32 AM GMT+5:30, Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. <brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca> wrote:  
 
 I would like to add my two cents, for what it is worth, to this interesting question. I agree with Dean Anderson that existing conceptions of the physical might prejudice how the view that there is rebirth can be empirically tested. But it is also useful to bear in mind that what is taken to be physical and material has changed over time. The void, for example, which is the antithesis of the material,in at least one acceptation of the word, was ruled out as an impossibility by Aristotelians, and Cartesians, eventually being adopted as part of mainstream science. Moreover, no one's conceptionof the physical in the 16th century would have included radiation as it was conceived of in the 19th century by Faraday and Maxwell; and though it is physical, it is not material. It could very well be that 50 years from now our conception of the physical might include what we now refer to as the mental. In short, it could turn out that, if the question is treated empirically, the answer might end up altering what it is that we count as physicaland material.?
Best wishes,Brendan

Brendan S. Gillon??????????????????????????? email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
Department of Linguistics
McGill University???????????????????????????? tel.:? 001 514 398 4868 
1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
Montreal, Quebec?????????????????????????? fax.:? 001 514 398 7088 
H3A 1A7? CANADA

webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: November 18, 2020 10:24 PM
To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>; Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process??Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.? That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.
My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.
As you rightly pointed out, Dominik, this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.
There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.

I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.
Best,
Dean

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 8:38:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense".? First, let's get rid of "western".? Everybody does science and has done for a couple of centuries, so it's been global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a statement about historical origins.? Moving on, the idea of equating reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about pram??as, I think.? In his famous essay, ?The Purpose of Philosophy?, Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer them.? Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g., mathematics or chess).? But the third category is questions about which we are uncertain about how to answer them.? Those are philosophical questions (I would say, metaphysical questions).?? So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.? That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.
Best,Dominik


On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.? A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?? b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,? 
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist? 
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it? 
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do? 
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as? 
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with? 
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of?
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall?
> <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a? 
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>? @David?
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>? @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or?
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson? 
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell? 
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text? 
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time? 
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on? 
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual? 
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or? 
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the? 
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall? 
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's? 
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,? 
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness? 
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY? 
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>?
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as? 
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich? 
> Koch via INDOLOGY? 
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>?
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,? 
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)? a? 
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects? 
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If? 
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also? 
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature? 
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read? 
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the? 
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to? 
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead? 
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta? 
> (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan? 
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of? 
> both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following? 
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a? 
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (?sanna)
> habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,? 
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this? 
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience? 
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you? 
> haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something? 
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will? 
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on? 
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual? 
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life? 
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The? 
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the? 
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus? 
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from? 
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY? 
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>?
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic? 
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,? 
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as? 
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random? 
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is? 
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other? 
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>?
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>?
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>?
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>?
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list? 
> options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148





-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x) 
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

_______________________________________________
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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Thu Nov 19 12:10:10 2020
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 12:10:10 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
Message-ID: <1605786637.S.15877.autosave.drafts.1605787810.20910@webmail.rediffmail.com>


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From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 19 13:38:56 2020
From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 08:38:56 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <149279077.98334.1605759331575@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1F91F2C6-1D60-496F-A89C-26247D5E3AE7@yahoo.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I have read this conversation thread with great interest. I am particularly appreciative of the last two postings by Brendan Gillon and and Dean Anderson, which reflect my own views on this subject. I thank everyone involved for a stimulating discussion.

In case it might be pertinent, I am providing a link to a special issue of Religions which I edited last year on this very topic, covering it from a variety of perspectives. The entire issue can be downloaded for free: https://www.mdpi.com/books/pdfview/book/1097 <https://www.mdpi.com/books/pdfview/book/1097>

All the best,
Jeff

Dr. Jeffery D. Long
Professor of Religion and Asian Studies
Elizabethtown College
Elizabethtown, PA
 
https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong
 
Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, Philosophical, and Theological
Lexington Books
 
?One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life.?  (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
 
?We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.? (Carl Sagan)

> On Nov 18, 2020, at 11:15 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> I agree, Brendan, that in the future science may be more open. In fact, it is slowly happening right now.
> 
> Like you, I also like to use the example of Michael Faraday. When he first proposed the idea of invisible magnetic fields that extend throughout space, he was mocked by the Royal Society for his "metaphysics". It took Maxwell's brilliant mathematics, and probably his being a member of the nobility didn't hurt, to get them to come around.
> 
> These days, of course, some physicists consider fields to be more real than "matter".
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Thursday, November 19, 2020, 9:21:32 AM GMT+5:30, Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. <brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> 
> I would like to add my two cents, for what it is worth, to this interesting question. I agree with Dean Anderson that existing conceptions of the physical might prejudice how the view that there is rebirth can be empirically tested. But it is also useful to bear in mind that what is taken to be physical and material has changed over time. The void, for example, which is the antithesis of the material,
> in at least one acceptation of the word, was ruled out as an impossibility by Aristotelians, and Cartesians, eventually being adopted as part of mainstream science. Moreover, no one's conception
> of the physical in the 16th century would have included radiation as it was conceived of in the 19th century by Faraday and Maxwell; and though it is physical, it is not material. It could very well be that 50 years from now our conception of the physical might include what we now refer to as the mental. In short, it could turn out that, if the question is treated empirically, the answer might end up altering what it is that we count as physical
> and material. 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Brendan
> 
> Brendan S. Gillon                            email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
> Department of Linguistics
> McGill University                             tel.:  001 514 398 4868 
> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
> Montreal, Quebec                           fax.:  001 514 398 7088 
> H3A 1A7  CANADA
> 
> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: November 18, 2020 10:24 PM
> To: James Hartzell <james.hartzell at gmail.com>; Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>; Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
>  
> Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.
> 
> My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.
> 
> As you rightly pointed out, Dominik, this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.
> 
> There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.
> 
> I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 8:38:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense".  First, let's get rid of "western".  Everybody does science and has done for a couple of centuries, so it's been global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a statement about historical origins.  Moving on, the idea of equating reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about pram??as, I think.  In his famous essay, ?The Purpose of Philosophy?, Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer them.  Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g., mathematics or chess).  But the third category is questions about which we are uncertain about how to answer them.  Those are philosophical questions (I would say, metaphysical questions).   So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:
> In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).
> If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma? 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de <mailto:franco at uni-leipzig.de>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Matthew,
> It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,  
> but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
> dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
> Best wishes,
> Eli
> 
> 
> Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
> 
> > The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist  
> > tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it  
> > up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do  
> > thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as  
> > well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> > https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/ <https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/>
> > Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> > Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> > https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm <https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm>
> >
> > One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with  
> > rebirth as well:
> > https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer <https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer>
> >
> > best,
> > Matthew
> >
> > Matthew Kapstein
> > Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> >
> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> > The University of Chicago
> > ________________________________
> > From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of  
> > James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> > To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com <mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall  
> > <ty37 at columbia.edu <mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu <mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
> > Cc: indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a  
> > semi-random process?
> >
> > No, I don't.
> > Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu <mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>  @David  
> > Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu <mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or  
> > others might recall
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson  
> > <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com <mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com <mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>> wrote:
> > Thanks James.
> >
> > Do you happen to remember the title?
> >
> > Dean
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell  
> > <james.hartzell at gmail.com <mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com <mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Dean
> >
> > Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text  
> > with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time  
> > might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on  
> > reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual  
> > attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or  
> > towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the  
> > house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall  
> > correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's  
> > karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,  
> > and there may have been something there about a certain randomness  
> > or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
> >
> > Cheers
> > James
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> > <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>  
> > wrote:
> > Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as  
> > far as the claim that I'd heard about.
> >
> > I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> >
> > On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich  
> > Koch via INDOLOGY  
> > <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>  
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dean,
> > another aspect may be helpful:
> >
> > because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,  
> > I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)  a  
> > systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects  
> > specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> > When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If  
> > he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> > This description is adapted in several later works and found also  
> > his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature  
> > and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
> >
> > I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read  
> > Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the  
> > answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
> >
> > Best
> > Heiner
> >
> >
> > Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> > Dear Dean,
> >
> > Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
> >
> > The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to  
> > pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead  
> > to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta  
> > (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan  
> > translation).
> >
> > Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of  
> > both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following  
> > categories of karman in the context of determining which of a  
> > being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
> >
> > weighty (garuka/guru)
> > near to death (?sanna)
> > habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
> > something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
> >
> > See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,  
> > Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
> >
> > In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this  
> > life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience  
> > the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you  
> > haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something  
> > done close to the time of death or something done habitually will  
> > tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on  
> > whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual  
> > actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life  
> > may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The  
> > sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the  
> > complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus  
> > from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from  
> > the perspective of a buddha it is not.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Rupert
> > --
> > Rupert Gethin
> > Professor of Buddhist Studies
> > University of Bristol
> >
> > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>>
> >
> > On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> > <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>>  
> > wrote:
> >
> > Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
> >
> > Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic  
> > process based on past karma.
> >
> > I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,  
> > consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as  
> > something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random  
> > collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is  
> > not so strictly deterministic.
> >
> > I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
> >
> > Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
> >
> > Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other  
> > reincarnation-based religions?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean Anderson
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>  
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list  
> > options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>  
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list  
> > options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com <http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/><http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com <http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>  
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list  
> > options or unsubscribe)
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>  
> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list  
> > options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> > Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> > Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
> Schillerstr. 6
> 04109 Leipzig
> 
> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
> Fax +49 341 9737 148
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x) 
> Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
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From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk  Thu Nov 19 15:02:12 2020
From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 15:02:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers: Transdisciplinary Approaches to the Ramayana and Mahabharata
Message-ID: <DB6PR0202MB2757ECF65AB705CD85F308D98CE00@DB6PR0202MB2757.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,

I am recirculating this call for papers, as the previously announced deadline is approaching.
The deadline has now been extended to December 31st.

Yours faithfully, Simon Brodbeck.

--------
CALL FOR PAPERS
Transdisciplinary Approaches to the Ra?ma?yan?a and Maha?bha?rata
International Online Seminar Series

The Centre for Asian Studies at Cardiff University, Wales, invites participants for an online seminar series on transdisciplinary approaches to the Ra?ma?yan?a and Maha?bha?rata. Our aim is to provide a platform for expanding and strengthening the dialogue between the disciplines within Indology and art history. We welcome proposals with an interdisciplinary or monodisciplinary scope.

The seminars, convened by Laxshmi Greaves, Simon Brodbeck and James Hegarty, will be held every Thursday from the 3rd June until the 8th July 2021, 2?4.30 pm British Summer Time, on Zoom.

Panel proposals of three papers, or individual abstracts of 300?500 words, should be emailed to tarm at cardiff.ac.uk by the 31st December 2020. Presentations will be 30 minutes long, excluding discussion time.

The outcome of this seminar series will be a peer-reviewed edited volume.
---------


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Thu Nov 19 15:03:44 2020
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 15:03:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
Message-ID: <1605795713.S.35974.autosave.drafts.1605798223.22024@webmail.rediffmail.com>

Dr.Brendan Gillon,I apologise for the inadvertant mis-posting a short while back.It might have happened due a technical snag.
However, I&nbsp; am in complete agreement with your opinion that 50 years hence, the concept of" physical" may also include the idea of "mental" as well.Being a student of Indian Philosophy,I find reflection of your above ,in the philosophy preached by Patanjali,the ancient Indian sage-philosopher in his "Yog-Sutra", which is also the practical demonstration of Samkhya philosophy.Patanjali spoke of" Vritti". Vritti can be defined as the modifications of our mind.The knowledge about the empirical and physical world around develops from our Mind.Our mind, when facing an object in front, goes out through our senses, meets the object, and ramifies/modifies itself in accordance with the shape of the object.Thus, being aided by the "Vritti"s(modifications), our Mind moulds itself according to the shape of the physical object it has in front, culminating finally in our empirical knowledge.So, from antiquity,Yog Sutra shows the way as to how our physical world is basically "mental"I can recall a line from a poem written by Tagore, the 19th-century Indian poet-philospher,which says-"It is in my conscience whereThe Emerald is green,&nbsp; My conscience sees the Ruby turning Red"
Alakendu Das .
Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: "Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY" &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:22:16 GMT+0530
To: James Hartzell &lt;james.hartzell at gmail.com&gt;,  Dominik Wujastyk &lt;wujastyk at gmail.com&gt;,  Dean Michael Anderson &lt;eastwestcultural at yahoo.com&gt;
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

 



 


I would like to add my two cents, for what it is worth, to this interesting question. I agree with Dean Anderson that existing conceptions of the physical might prejudice how the view that there is rebirth can be empirically tested. But it is also useful to
 bear in mind that what is taken to be physical and material has changed over time. The void, for example, which is the antithesis of the material,
in at least one acceptation of the word, was ruled out as an impossibility by Aristotelians, and Cartesians, eventually being adopted as part of mainstream science. Moreover, no one's conception
of the physical in the 16th century would have included radiation as it was conceived of in the 19th century by Faraday and Maxwell; and though it is physical, it is not material. It could very well be that 50 years from now our conception of the physical
 might include what we now refer to as the mental. In short, it could turn out that, if the question is treated empirically, the answer might end up altering what it is that we count as physical
and material.&nbsp;





Best wishes,

Brendan










Brendan S. Gillon&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca

Department of Linguistics

McGill University&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tel.:&nbsp; 001 514 398 4868 

1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield

Montreal, Quebec&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fax.:&nbsp; 001 514 398 7088 

H3A 1A7&nbsp; CANADA



webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/






From: INDOLOGY &lt;indology-bounces at list.indology.info&gt; on behalf of Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;

Sent: November 18, 2020 10:24 PM

To: James Hartzell &lt;james.hartzell at gmail.com&gt;; Dominik Wujastyk &lt;wujastyk at gmail.com&gt;

Cc: David Gray &lt;dgray at scu.edu&gt;; Indology &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;; Tom Yarnall &lt;ty37 at columbia.edu&gt;

Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
&nbsp;




Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt; wrote:
So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.&nbsp; That means there should be some falsifiable criteria
 available for testing conjectures.



My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend
 to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.



As you rightly pointed out, Dominik, this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.



There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.





I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this.



Best,



Dean








On Wednesday, November 18, 2020, 8:38:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt; wrote:












It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense".&nbsp; First, let's get rid of "western".&nbsp; Everybody does science and has done for a couple
 of centuries, so it's been global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a statement about historical origins.&nbsp; Moving on, the idea of equating reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about pram??as, I think.&nbsp; In his
 famous essay, ?The Purpose of Philosophy?, Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer them.&nbsp; Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g., mathematics or chess).&nbsp; But the third category is questions about
 which we are uncertain about how to answer them.&nbsp; Those are philosophical questions (I would say, metaphysical questions).&nbsp;&nbsp; So your proposal for examining reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as an empirical question, rather
 than as a formal or philosophical one.&nbsp; That means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing conjectures.




Best,

Dominik







On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt; wrote:



Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is karma-deterministic or not:
In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from something sometimes called 'ballistic'
 in the sense of basically automatic and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random, freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved (aka computational neuroscience).
If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting
 research questions come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.&nbsp; A couple of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably be a certain degree
 of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?&nbsp; b) What might be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?





On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco &lt;franco at uni-leipzig.de&gt; wrote:




Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,&nbsp; 
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;:

&gt; The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist&nbsp; 
&gt; tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it&nbsp; 
&gt; up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do&nbsp; 
&gt; thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as&nbsp; 
&gt; well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
&gt; 
https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
&gt; Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
&gt; Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
&gt; 
https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
&gt;
&gt; One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with&nbsp; 
&gt; rebirth as well:
&gt; 
https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
&gt;
&gt; best,
&gt; Matthew
&gt;
&gt; Matthew Kapstein
&gt; Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
&gt; Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
&gt;
&gt; Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
&gt; The University of Chicago
&gt; ________________________________
&gt; From: INDOLOGY &lt;indology-bounces at list.indology.info&gt; on behalf of&nbsp;

&gt; James Hartzell via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
&gt; To: Dean Michael Anderson &lt;eastwestcultural at yahoo.com&gt;; Tom Yarnall&nbsp;

&gt; &lt;ty37 at columbia.edu&gt;; David Gray &lt;dgray at scu.edu&gt;
&gt; Cc: 
indology at list.indology.info &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a&nbsp; 
&gt; semi-random process?
&gt;
&gt; No, I don't.
&gt; Perhaps @Tom Yarnall&lt;mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu&gt;&nbsp; @David&nbsp;

&gt; Gray&lt;mailto:dgray at scu.edu&gt;&nbsp; @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or&nbsp;

&gt; others might recall
&gt;
&gt; On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson&nbsp; 
&gt; &lt;eastwestcultural at yahoo.com&lt;mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt; Thanks James.
&gt;
&gt; Do you happen to remember the title?
&gt;
&gt; Dean
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell&nbsp; 
&gt; &lt;james.hartzell at gmail.com&lt;mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Hi Dean
&gt;
&gt; Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text&nbsp; 
&gt; with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time&nbsp; 
&gt; might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on&nbsp; 
&gt; reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual&nbsp; 
&gt; attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or&nbsp; 
&gt; towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the&nbsp; 
&gt; house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall&nbsp; 
&gt; correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's&nbsp; 
&gt; karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,&nbsp; 
&gt; and there may have been something there about a certain randomness&nbsp; 
&gt; or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
&gt;
&gt; Cheers
&gt; James
&gt;
&gt; On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY&nbsp; 
&gt; &lt;indology at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology at list.indology.info&gt;&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; wrote:
&gt; Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as&nbsp; 
&gt; far as the claim that I'd heard about.
&gt;
&gt; I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
&gt;
&gt; Best,
&gt;
&gt; Dean
&gt;
&gt; On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich&nbsp; 
&gt; Koch via INDOLOGY&nbsp; 
&gt; &lt;indology at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology at list.indology.info&gt;&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Dear Dean,
&gt; another aspect may be helpful:
&gt;
&gt; because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,&nbsp; 
&gt; I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (?yu?paryantas?tra)&nbsp; a&nbsp; 
&gt; systematically composed description (Sanskrit-?loka) connects&nbsp; 
&gt; specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
&gt; When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If&nbsp; 
&gt; he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
&gt; This description is adapted in several later works and found also&nbsp; 
&gt; his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature&nbsp; 
&gt; and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
&gt;
&gt; I did not translate the complete ?yu?paryantas?tra. If you can read&nbsp; 
&gt; Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the&nbsp; 
&gt; answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
&gt;
&gt; Best
&gt; Heiner
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
&gt; Dear Dean,
&gt;
&gt; Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
&gt;
&gt; The idea that good karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead to&nbsp; 
&gt; pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn?t invariably immediately lead&nbsp; 
&gt; to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibha?ga-sutta&nbsp; 
&gt; (MN III 207?15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan&nbsp; 
&gt; translation).
&gt;
&gt; Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of&nbsp; 
&gt; both the Therav?da and Sarv?stiv?da refers to the following&nbsp; 
&gt; categories of karman in the context of determining which of a&nbsp; 
&gt; being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
&gt;
&gt; weighty (garuka/guru)
&gt; near to death (?sanna)
&gt; habitual (?ci??a/abhyasta)
&gt; something previously done (ka?att?kamma/p?rvak?ta)
&gt;
&gt; See e.g. Vism 601?602 (XIX.14?16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,&nbsp; 
&gt; Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
&gt;
&gt; In other words, if you have done something really ?weighty' in this&nbsp; 
&gt; life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience&nbsp; 
&gt; the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you&nbsp; 
&gt; haven?t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something&nbsp; 
&gt; done close to the time of death or something done habitually will&nbsp; 
&gt; tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on&nbsp; 
&gt; whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual&nbsp; 
&gt; actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life&nbsp; 
&gt; may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The&nbsp; 
&gt; sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the&nbsp; 
&gt; complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus&nbsp; 
&gt; from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from&nbsp; 
&gt; the perspective of a buddha it is not.
&gt;
&gt; Best wishes,
&gt;
&gt; Rupert
&gt; --
&gt; Rupert Gethin
&gt; Professor of Buddhist Studies
&gt; University of Bristol
&gt;
&gt; Email: 
Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk&lt;mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk&gt;
&gt;
&gt; On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY&nbsp; 
&gt; &lt;indology at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology at list.indology.info&gt;&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
&gt;
&gt; Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic&nbsp; 
&gt; process based on past karma.
&gt;
&gt; I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,&nbsp; 
&gt; consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as&nbsp; 
&gt; something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random&nbsp; 
&gt; collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is&nbsp; 
&gt; not so strictly deterministic.
&gt;
&gt; I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
&gt;
&gt; Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
&gt;
&gt; Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other&nbsp; 
&gt; reincarnation-based religions?
&gt;
&gt; Best,
&gt;
&gt; Dean Anderson
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; INDOLOGY mailing list
&gt; 
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; 
indology-owner at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; (messages to the list's managing committee)
&gt; 
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list&nbsp; 
&gt; options or unsubscribe)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; INDOLOGY mailing list
&gt; 
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; 
indology-owner at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; (messages to the list's managing committee)
&gt; 
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list&nbsp; 
&gt; options or unsubscribe)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
&gt; 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com&lt;http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com&gt;
&gt;
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; INDOLOGY mailing list
&gt; 
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; 
indology-owner at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; (messages to the list's managing committee)
&gt; 
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list&nbsp; 
&gt; options or unsubscribe)
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; INDOLOGY mailing list
&gt; 
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; 
indology-owner at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info&gt;&nbsp;

&gt; (messages to the list's managing committee)
&gt; 
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list&nbsp; 
&gt; options or unsubscribe)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
&gt; Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
&gt; Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
&gt; Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
&gt; Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain
&gt; Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
&gt; Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148






-- 


















James Hartzell, PhD 
(2x) 

Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain

Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy

Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



























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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 17:06:03 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 10:06:03 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <1919177432.85231.1605756260418@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcYU08exKgr8RXbeBOTu3B_qRsjuA5Tmc4Munrn8-o1cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 20:24, Dean Michael Anderson <
eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific
> paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material
> phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life
> experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena
> which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain
> functioning.
>
>
I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific
paradigm.  Of course it depends on whom in the scientific community you
listen to.  I've been watching some of the online lectures by Roger Penrose
recently (he just got a Nobel).  He's proposing some very interesting and
definitely non-physical speculations about the non-computable nature of
consciousness.  He's not mainstream on these topics, at least amongst
physicists, but he is a major voice.  And there are others too, in the
rapidly-evolving field of consciousness studies.  There has always been a
philosophical stream in Physics that thinks creatively about the
consequences of quantum mechanics, such as non-locality, quantum
entanglement, etc.  Henry Pierce Stapp, David Bohm, etc.  And anyway, is
electromagnetic radiation, for example, best thought of as a "material
phenomenon"?  Perhaps the science paradigm is not best thought about as
material vs. nonmaterial, but as falsifiable vs. metaphysical.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk
<https://apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/wujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.


South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca

SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project <http://sushrutaproject.org>


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From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 19:08:26 2020
From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 20:08:26 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
Message-ID: <CALPiqisbLEjZ3wnthHA-s=zgeAMJw66MrjtSjFpHq9Cb5m+psQ@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear Dean, you wrote:

"There might be approaches which could address such issues but most
scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an
interest in this could hurt their scientific career.

I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this."

I know two serious attempts at scientific investigation of the matter of
reincarnation/rebirth. First is of American (but Canadian-born) Professor
of psychiatry Ian Stevenson, who analyzed many cases of remembrance of
previous lifes and studied uncanny cases of inborn injuries or birthmarks
on those areas of the bodies of supposedly reincarnated person, which were
damaged due to their violent death in their "previous life/lives"
(accident, murder etc.). Stevenson, being a scientist, tried to apply
rigorous scientific methodology in his research, but, as the critics
pointed out later, he still could not avoid bias in his research, so most
of it is considered to be flawed.

A very recent attempt is that of ven. Bhikkhu An?layo, a key figure in
current scholarly research into early Buddhism. In his book "Rebirth in
Early Buddhism and Current Research" (2018), which I can highly recommend
as an introduction to that area of inquiry, he takes up the research of
Stevenson, provides a necessary theoretical background for the study of
reincarnation and adds new empirical dimension to it: a philological one
(!). He argues that a Sri Lankan boy, who at a very early age "remembered"
his previous life as famous ancient Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa,
"remembered" the portions of the ancient Buddhist canon that are unique,
having analyzed the tapes of the recitation of the canon by the said boy.

Regarding your initial question: as Prof. Rupert Gethin answered above: the
Buddhist tradition (at least the Southern one) holds, that rebirth is (or
may seem) random from the point of view of an unenlightened person (i.e.
including our modern science and philosophy), but strictly determined from
the point of view of the Buddha. I may add here that the Buddha says that
one should not think about the workings of karma(n), because it will drive
them insane (because of complexity of the matter).

Kind regards,
Gleb Sharygin


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From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 19:18:19 2020
From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 20:18:19 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CALPiqisbLEjZ3wnthHA-s=zgeAMJw66MrjtSjFpHq9Cb5m+psQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALPiqivU0tFoPV++TGk9KcioZWC_9HPCohZd06xqhKL8UEm3fA@mail.gmail.com>

"Buddha says that one should not think about the workings of karma(n),
because it will drive them insane (because of complexity of the matter)"

That is, one shouldn't obsessively try to unravel the precise mechanism of
the karma(n) operation. In Buddhist teaching one of course should
constantly think about their "karman", the actions that they do and the
results they inherit.

??, 19 ????. 2020 ?. ? 20:08, Gleb Sharygin <gleb.sharygin at gmail.com>:

>  Dear Dean, you wrote:
>
> "There might be approaches which could address such issues but most
> scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an
> interest in this could hurt their scientific career.
>
> I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this."
>
> I know two serious attempts at scientific investigation of the matter of
> reincarnation/rebirth. First is of American (but Canadian-born) Professor
> of psychiatry Ian Stevenson, who analyzed many cases of remembrance of
> previous lifes and studied uncanny cases of inborn injuries or birthmarks
> on those areas of the bodies of supposedly reincarnated person, which were
> damaged due to their violent death in their "previous life/lives"
> (accident, murder etc.). Stevenson, being a scientist, tried to apply
> rigorous scientific methodology in his research, but, as the critics
> pointed out later, he still could not avoid bias in his research, so most
> of it is considered to be flawed.
>
> A very recent attempt is that of ven. Bhikkhu An?layo, a key figure in
> current scholarly research into early Buddhism. In his book "Rebirth in
> Early Buddhism and Current Research" (2018), which I can highly recommend
> as an introduction to that area of inquiry, he takes up the research of
> Stevenson, provides a necessary theoretical background for the study of
> reincarnation and adds new empirical dimension to it: a philological one
> (!). He argues that a Sri Lankan boy, who at a very early age "remembered"
> his previous life as famous ancient Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa,
> "remembered" the portions of the ancient Buddhist canon that are unique,
> having analyzed the tapes of the recitation of the canon by the said boy.
>
> Regarding your initial question: as Prof. Rupert Gethin answered above:
> the Buddhist tradition (at least the Southern one) holds, that rebirth is
> (or may seem) random from the point of view of an unenlightened person
> (i.e. including our modern science and philosophy), but strictly determined
> from the point of view of the Buddha. I may add here that the Buddha says
> that one should not think about the workings of karma(n), because it will
> drive them insane (because of complexity of the matter).
>
> Kind regards,
> Gleb Sharygin
>


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From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 19:32:03 2020
From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 20:32:03 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: [ctamil] Alexander Dubiansky (1941-2020)
Message-ID: <CALPiqiuO1-XyV29-scWU9xar+p3Xg2d0GE+9VDMkLuoq8R+2Zg@mail.gmail.com>

I deeply regret the passing away of Alexander Mikhailovitch Dubiansky, who
was an outstanding scholar, real Russian "intelligent" and a treasure of
knowledge. My deep condolences to his daughter Tatyana Dubianskaya.

Kind regards
Gleb Sharygin


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From martingansten at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 20:02:52 2020
From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 21:02:52 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CALPiqisbLEjZ3wnthHA-s=zgeAMJw66MrjtSjFpHq9Cb5m+psQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <504214bd-c554-8d62-2ba4-e8d0a74954b4@gmail.com>

I was wondering whether to bring up Ian Stevenson (and his collaborators 
and successors, including Jim Tucker) and had decided not to, but now 
that his name has been mentioned, I feel it must be said in the interest 
of fairness that there is no consensus opinion that his work was flawed 
(and I personally consider it hugely impressive). But this is a very 
ideologized topic, as others have pointed out (/pace /Dominik). As 
philosopher Stephen Braude put it when describing his interest in 
so-called paranormal phenomena (a misnomer, in my view): /I had enough 
sense to put it all aside until I completed my Ph.D., landed a teaching 
job, did some respectable mainstream philosophy, and earned tenure. (I 
may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.)/

Although not relating to Indology, and only indirectly to reincarnation, 
the 800-page /Irreducible Mind/ (eds. Kelly & Kelly et al., 2008) may be 
found relevant by list members interested in the philosophical (and 
empirical) issues at stake here.

Best wishes,
Martin Gansten



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From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 19 20:34:38 2020
From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 20 15:34:38 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CALPiqivU0tFoPV++TGk9KcioZWC_9HPCohZd06xqhKL8UEm3fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <740F8061-5C93-4B10-A6BD-E16A4D01ED7D@yahoo.com>

Dear Colleagues,

In addition to the work of Ian Stevenson, mentioned by Gleb Sharygin, I would add the ongoing work of Jim Tucker, Stevenson?s successor at the University of Virginia, who has sought to correct the elements of bias found in Stevenson?s research.

A noteworthy article in this regard, co-authored by Jonathan Edelmann and William Bernet, is ?Setting Criteria for Ideal Reincarnation Research? (Journal of Consciousness Studies, 14(12), December 2007). (I apologize if this has already been mentioned somewhere in this thread and I failed to notice it.)

All the best,
Jeff

Dr. Jeffery D. Long
Professor of Religion and Asian Studies
Elizabethtown College
Elizabethtown, PA
 
https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong
 
Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, Philosophical, and Theological
Lexington Books
 
?One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life.?  (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
 
?We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.? (Carl Sagan)

> On Nov 19, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Gleb Sharygin via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> "Buddha says that one should not think about the workings of karma(n), because it will drive them insane (because of complexity of the matter)"
> 
> That is, one shouldn't obsessively try to unravel the precise mechanism of the karma(n) operation. In Buddhist teaching one of course should constantly think about their "karman", the actions that they do and the results they inherit.
> 
> ??, 19 ????. 2020 ?. ? 20:08, Gleb Sharygin <gleb.sharygin at gmail.com <mailto:gleb.sharygin at gmail.com>>:
>  Dear Dean, you wrote:
> 
> "There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.
> 
> I'd be interested in other's thoughts about this."
> 
> I know two serious attempts at scientific investigation of the matter of reincarnation/rebirth. First is of American (but Canadian-born) Professor of psychiatry Ian Stevenson, who analyzed many cases of remembrance of previous lifes and studied uncanny cases of inborn injuries or birthmarks on those areas of the bodies of supposedly reincarnated person, which were damaged due to their violent death in their "previous life/lives" (accident, murder etc.). Stevenson, being a scientist, tried to apply rigorous scientific methodology in his research, but, as the critics pointed out later, he still could not avoid bias in his research, so most of it is considered to be flawed. 
> 
> A very recent attempt is that of ven. Bhikkhu An?layo, a key figure in current scholarly research into early Buddhism. In his book "Rebirth in Early Buddhism and Current Research" (2018), which I can highly recommend as an introduction to that area of inquiry, he takes up the research of Stevenson, provides a necessary theoretical background for the study of reincarnation and adds new empirical dimension to it: a philological one (!). He argues that a Sri Lankan boy, who at a very early age "remembered" his previous life as famous ancient Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa, "remembered" the portions of the ancient Buddhist canon that are unique, having analyzed the tapes of the recitation of the canon by the said boy. 
> 
> Regarding your initial question: as Prof. Rupert Gethin answered above: the Buddhist tradition (at least the Southern one) holds, that rebirth is (or may seem) random from the point of view of an unenlightened person (i.e. including our modern science and philosophy), but strictly determined from the point of view of the Buddha. I may add here that the Buddha says that one should not think about the workings of karma(n), because it will drive them insane (because of complexity of the matter).
> 
> Kind regards,
> Gleb Sharygin
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 20 16:21:03 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 20 16:21:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcYU08exKgr8RXbeBOTu3B_qRsjuA5Tmc4Munrn8-o1cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <325598420.170009.1605889263189@mail.yahoo.com>

 

    On Thursday, November 19, 2020, 10:36:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:  
 I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific paradigm. 

Dean writes:
Thanks for your valuable comment and information Dominik. I agree with you and Penrose, et al. Forgive me if I beg to differ, however, in considering it the "current scientific paradigm." But, as you point out, things are changing. We can only hope.

Best,
Dean
 

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 20:24, Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:


My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.


I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific paradigm.? Of course it depends on whom in the scientific community you listen to.? I've been watching some of the online lectures by Roger Penrose recently (he just got a Nobel).? He's proposing some very interesting and definitely non-physical speculations about the non-computable nature of consciousness.? He's not mainstream on these topics, at least amongst physicists, but he is a major voice.? And there are others too, in the rapidly-evolving field of consciousness studies.? There has always been a philosophical stream in Physics that thinks creatively about the consequences of quantum mechanics, such as non-locality, quantum entanglement, etc.? Henry Pierce Stapp, David Bohm, etc.? And anyway, is electromagnetic radiation, for example, best thought of as a "material phenomenon"?? Perhaps the science paradigm is not best thought about as material vs. nonmaterial, but as falsifiable vs. metaphysical.

Best,Dominik
--
Professor?Dominik Wujastyk,
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
Department of History and Classics,University of Alberta, Canada.

South Asia at the U of A:?sas.ualberta.ca
SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project
  


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Nov 20 18:12:50 2020
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 20 12:12:50 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cre-A Ramakrishnan passes away
In-Reply-To: <AAC4127D-0257-4466-9D9A-10644B8DC559.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAC4127D-0257-4466-9D9A-10644B8DC559@aol.com>

Some members of the list may be interested in this sad news.

 

https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2020/nov/17/veteran-tamil-publisher-lexicographer-cre-a-ramakrishnan-dies-at-75-2224494.html

 

The Indian edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy by Iravatham Mahadevan was published by Cre-A.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

 



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From saf at safarmer.com  Fri Nov 20 22:36:59 2020
From: saf at safarmer.com (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 20 14:36:59 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <325598420.170009.1605889263189@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3782CCED-05EE-40A1-93CE-7F319AD8FC62@safarmer.com>

Dear Dean,

Responding to Dominik you suggest that scientists might not be interested in studying reincarnation due to what you represent as

>> ? the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.

You add a little later:

>>> ? this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.
>>> 
>>> There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.

As I think Dominik was trying gently to suggest to you, Dean, you?re deeply confusing 19th century with 20th and 21st centuries views of science. This is evident in your conflation of classical field theory ? as expressed, e.g., in Newton, Faraday, and Maxwell ? with much later quantum field theory, whose theoretical aims and mathematical tools (including Hilbert space!!) belong to a very different era.

In brief, quantum field theory originated in the 1920s-late 1940s in major figures involved in quantum mechanics including Dirac, Van Neumann, and Feynman. Following Feynman?s work in the late 1940s (when the use of Feynman?s diagrams and renormalization were introduced) it now lies at the center of the so-called ?standard model? in particle physics. Seventy years later it has been tweaked by a long list of later mathematical physicists and cosmologists including Steven Weinberg at Harvard (in his 80s but still working).  

Weinberg wrote an elegant historical overview back in 1977 on the radical shifts in field theory from classical to quantum mechanics. Rather than belabor the point I?ll give you a link to Weinstein's classical paper here, where you can verify for yourself how radically different classical field theory and quantum field theory are:

http://www.fafnir.phyast.pitt.edu/py3765/WeinbergQFThistory.pdf

Back to the supposed reluctance of modern scientists in general to deal with issues involving the origins of consciousness. The truth is just the reverse: ever since Schr?dinger published his 1926 article on the quantum wave function, issues of consciousness have been central to the field. The issue is prominent due to the many paradoxes that arose after Schr?dinger in making sense of the ?collapse of the wave function? (so named by Heisenberg and Van Neumann) which  involves questions re. measurement and consciousness that remain unresolved after 94 years of heated scientific discussion.

There is nothing unique about the specific physicists Dominik mentions ? the late David Bohm (d. 1992), Stapp, or Penrose. Dozens of other figures took the same route, including many of their teachers. Any short list ? I?m leaving dozens of people out ? would have to include Van Neumann, Eugene Wigner, John Archibald Wheeler, Steven Hawking, John Barrows and Frank Tipler (in their massive 1989 book on the so-called Anthropic Principle), Dyson Freeman, Max Tegmark, and a zillion billion others and their students. 

Hugh Everett, the originator of the still scientifically popular (among physicists, though not Penrose) "many-world interpretation" of quantum mechanics, falls in there too. Everett?s daughter Elizabeth took his scientific claims about human consciousness and immortality so seriously that when she killed herself, in 1996, her suicide note asked that her ashes be tossed in the garbage to assure that she'd "end up in the correct parallel universe to meet up w/  Daddy? ? a oblique reference to complaints from Everett?s colleagues and family that he neglected himself physically (the usual carpe diem drinking, smoking, and gambling sort of thing) since he was so certain his scientific arguments for universal ?quantum immortality? were irrefutable.

Why is this wonderfully wild & crazy theory so popular with theoreticians? Since it is expressed as a deterministic alternative to what later became the Copenhagen interpretation, which provoked Einstein?s famous ?God does not throw dice? remark at the Solvay Conference. (Bohr?s amusing response: ?Don?t tell God what to do!? Neither of course believed in God in any religious sense.)

Freeman Dyson, who just died this February, was famous (or infamous) for what appears to be his pan-psychism ? sparked again not by religion but by rational attempts to solve the paradoxes in the ?collapse of the wave function? problem ? which led him to believe that "mind is already inherent in every electron.? The claim was predictably ridiculed by Dyson?s contemporaries and popular writers, but that didn?t prevent Dyson from being one of the most influential physicists of recent times, in many fields in physics including the development of quantum field theory in the late 40s.

Leaving physics aside and moving to neuroscience, where ? again vs. your claims ? it is again easy to show that scientific interest in consciousness is very widespread:

Building brain models that attempt to explain human consciousness has long been a Holy Grail in the field, in fact, starting in fiercely competing research groups in the late 1970s. All involve major and NOT minor figures, including giants like Vernon Mountcastle, Gerald Edelman, and (later) Giulio Tononi; Francis Crick and Christof Koch; Walter Freeman and his students at Berkeley; Stanislaus Dehaene, Jean-Pierre Changeux, and their students in France; Karl Pribram and his grad students at Stanford (many of them my friends); and many others.  

Dozens of research labs all over the planet are currently studying near simultaneities in the firing patterns of distributed neural networks or even quantum entanglement (Einstein?s ?spooky action at a distance?) as processes required for conscious behavior.  Some very key tests of these models have in fact been made, though further advances are currently awaiting for further developments in cosmology.

Again, not to belabor the point, here is a recent overview by Koch of his work with Crick and some of their rivals (amusingly not all of them, if you know anything about of Crick?s deep Nobel rivalry with Edelman):

Koch (2018) ?What is Consciousness??
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05097-x

Finally, how much interest do these types of questions raise today in the scientific community ? when compared, say, with public interests in ancient religious views of consciousness, e.g. in Buddhism or Jainism or virtually any Vedic scholastic tradition?

The answer is suggested in the enormous excitement generated by a mathematical paper published earlier this week in Frontiers in Physics ? hardly a high-impact factor journal ? entitled "The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web.?  

I've read the paper and don't view its claims as groundbreaking, since similar correlative or fractal-like views have been put forward in lots of recent theoretical papers in integrative systems biology. But my views aside, in its first 4 days after publication this paper was viewed by over 25,000 (sic!) people, and secondary discussions have already begun in social media widely used by theoretical physicists to exchange ideas.

Here?s the new paper on the brain and cosmos from 4 days ago;
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.525731/full <https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.525731/full>

Sorry this one-time post has been so long ? but the topic is interesting and important!  Quick summary:

1. Scientific approaches to consciousness have been critical to the work of a long list of famous physicists since at least the 1927 Solvay Conference on Electrons and Photons, marked by the famous arguments between Bohr and Einstein on the paradoxes in quantum mechanics;

2. Similar approaches have also been central to neurobiology since at least the 1970s, triggered by major empirical discoveries starting in the 1950s and early 1960s that I haven?t mentioned, especially by Mountcastle (in 1957on the columnar structure of the premotor cortex), by Hubel and Wiesel (on the similar structure of the visual cortex), and on discoveries of a different sort in the Soviet Union following many decades of anatomical work by Luria and his collaborators.

Warm regards,
Steve Farmer

The Systems Biology Group
Palo Alto, CA

> On Nov 20, 2020, at 8:21 AM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, November 19, 2020, 10:36:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific paradigm. 
> 
> Dean writes:
> 
> Thanks for your valuable comment and information Dominik. I agree with you and Penrose, et al. Forgive me if I beg to differ, however, in considering it the "current scientific paradigm." But, as you point out, things are changing. We can only hope.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> 
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 20:24, Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com <mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> 
> My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific paradigm.  Of course it depends on whom in the scientific community you listen to.  I've been watching some of the online lectures by Roger Penrose recently (he just got a Nobel).  He's proposing some very interesting and definitely non-physical speculations about the non-computable nature of consciousness.  He's not mainstream on these topics, at least amongst physicists, but he is a major voice.  And there are others too, in the rapidly-evolving field of consciousness studies.  There has always been a philosophical stream in Physics that thinks creatively about the consequences of quantum mechanics, such as non-locality, quantum entanglement, etc.  Henry Pierce Stapp, David Bohm, etc.  And anyway, is electromagnetic radiation, for example, best thought of as a "material phenomenon"?  Perhaps the science paradigm is not best thought about as material vs. nonmaterial, but as falsifiable vs. metaphysical.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <https://apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/wujastyk>,
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>,
> University of Alberta, Canada.
> 
> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
> SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project <http://sushrutaproject.org/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 20 23:33:48 2020
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 20 23:33:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?
In-Reply-To: <3782CCED-05EE-40A1-93CE-7F319AD8FC62@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <2088862734.47574.1605915228073@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks for your response, Steve. Based on your response, I'm afraid I may not have explained my issues clearly enough.

I'm quite aware of the debate about physics and consciousness and of the writings of those leading physicists ranging from Schrodinger to Penrose. I've read many of the names you mentioned starting in the 1970s. I studied quantum physics briefly as an undergraduate and neuroscience at the graduate level before life events switched me to computers and Indology.
I have been preparing some publications in this area that I hope to publish if I live long enough. :-)
My mention of Faraday and Maxwell was intended more as an example from the sociology and history of science, not about the details of classical vs. quantum mechanics.
I am in communication with physicists and other "hard scientists" and I still find that resistance to these ideas is very wide-spread.
I should point out that I believe I am on the side of people like Penrose, and you, and Dominik, and the others. But, in preparing my own arguments, and to rebut the physicalists' ideas, I've had to also familiarize myself with the arguments of those who reject these ideas out of hand. One needs only read the publications of those who are researching these areas where they discuss the prejudice against them. As you pointed out, Dyson's idea, which was rather close to many of the ideas in Vedanta and Buddhism discussed here, "was predictably ridiculed by Dyson?s contemporaries". They are still ridiculed. I think you prove my point.

Someone here mentioned Kelly, I believe. Here are two of his books that not only discuss recent advances in the related fields but also the resistance to these ideas.
Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality edited by Edward F. Kelly, Adam Crabtree, and Paul Marshal. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2015. 602 pages. ISBN 978-1-4422-3238-9.

Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century by Edward F. Kelly, Emily Williams Kelly, Adam Crabtree, Alan Gauld, Michael Grosso, and Bruce Greyson.? Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, November, 2006. 800 pages. ISBN 0-7425-4792-2.? 

I only mention them because they were the last ones I was looking at, which was, unfortunately, at least a year ago. There are many others but I'm trying to finish some Indological publications at the moment so I need to avoid this wonderful distraction.
Thanks to everyone who replied. I never did get an exact answer to my original question but the various other topics that have come up are more interesting, valuable, and far-reaching anyway!
Since there is interest here, if/when I get back to the "nature of consciousness and physicalism" publication, I'll mention it, which I probably would not have done otherwise since it is only tangentially Indological -- or at least I thought so until I read many of your thoughtful replies.
I always appreciate your comments, Steve, even if we don't always agree. I probably won't respond if you care to reply, but I will save your comments for that hoped-for later time when I can return to this topic.

I'm sorry if this reply is a bit disjointed. I really need to get back to third century Central Asia.
Best,
Dean



    On Saturday, November 21, 2020, 4:07:50 AM GMT+5:30, Steve Farmer <saf at safarmer.com> wrote:  
 
 Dear Dean,
Responding to Dominik you suggest that scientists might not be interested in studying reincarnation due to what you represent as


? the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.


You add a little later:



? this area is currently considered a metaphysical question not a "scientific" one.
There might be approaches which could address such issues but most scientists are simply not interested. Many also feel that expressing an interest in this could hurt their scientific career.



As I think Dominik was trying gently to suggest to you, Dean, you?re deeply confusing 19th century with 20th and 21st centuries views of science. This is evident in your conflation of classical field theory ? as expressed, e.g., in Newton, Faraday, and Maxwell ? with much later?quantum field theory, whose theoretical aims and mathematical tools (including Hilbert space!!) belong to a very different era.
In brief, quantum field theory originated in the 1920s-late 1940s in major figures involved in quantum mechanics including Dirac, Van Neumann, and Feynman. Following Feynman?s work in the late 1940s (when the use of Feynman?s diagrams and renormalization were introduced) it now lies at the center of the so-called ?standard model? in particle physics. Seventy years later it has been tweaked by a long list of later mathematical physicists and cosmologists including Steven Weinberg at Harvard (in his 80s but still working). ?
Weinberg wrote an elegant historical overview back in 1977 on the radical shifts in field theory from classical to quantum mechanics. Rather than belabor the point I?ll give you a link to Weinstein's classical paper here, where you can verify for yourself how radically different classical field theory and quantum field theory are:
http://www.fafnir.phyast.pitt.edu/py3765/WeinbergQFThistory.pdf
Back to the supposed reluctance of modern scientists in general to deal with issues involving the origins of consciousness. The truth is just the reverse: ever since Schr?dinger published his 1926 article on the quantum wave function, issues of consciousness have been central to the field. The issue is prominent due to the many paradoxes that arose after Schr?dinger in making sense of the ?collapse of the wave function? (so named by Heisenberg and Van Neumann) which ?involves questions re. measurement and consciousness that remain unresolved after 94 years of heated scientific discussion.
There is nothing unique about the specific physicists Dominik mentions ? the late David Bohm (d. 1992), Stapp, or Penrose. Dozens of other figures took the same route, including many of their teachers. Any short list ? I?m leaving dozens of people out ? would have to include Van Neumann, Eugene Wigner, John Archibald Wheeler, Steven Hawking, John Barrows and Frank Tipler (in their massive 1989 book on the so-called Anthropic Principle), Dyson Freeman, Max Tegmark, and a zillion billion others and their students.?
Hugh Everett, the originator of the still scientifically popular (among physicists, though not Penrose) "many-world interpretation" of quantum mechanics, falls in there too. Everett?s daughter Elizabeth took his scientific claims about human consciousness and immortality so seriously that when she killed herself, in 1996, her suicide note asked that her ashes be tossed in the garbage to assure that she'd?"end up in the correct parallel universe to meet up w/ ?Daddy? ? a oblique reference to complaints from Everett?s colleagues and family that he?neglected himself physically (the usual carpe diem drinking, smoking, and gambling sort of thing) since he was so certain his scientific arguments for universal ?quantum immortality? were irrefutable.
Why is this wonderfully wild & crazy theory so popular with theoreticians? Since it is expressed as a deterministic alternative to what later became the Copenhagen interpretation, which provoked Einstein?s famous??God does not throw dice? remark at the Solvay Conference. (Bohr?s amusing response: ?Don?t tell God what to do!? Neither of course believed in God in any religious sense.)
Freeman Dyson, who just died this February, was famous (or infamous) for what appears to be his pan-psychism ? sparked again not by religion but by rational attempts to solve the paradoxes in the ?collapse of the wave function? problem ? which led him to believe that "mind is already inherent in every electron.? The claim was predictably ridiculed by Dyson?s contemporaries and popular writers, but that didn?t prevent Dyson from being one of the most influential physicists of recent times, in many fields in physics including the development of quantum field theory in the late 40s.
Leaving physics aside and moving to neuroscience, where?? again vs. your claims?? it is again easy to show that scientific interest in consciousness is very widespread:
Building brain models that attempt to explain human consciousness has long been a Holy Grail in the field, in fact, starting in fiercely competing research groups in the late 1970s. All involve major and NOT minor figures, including giants like Vernon Mountcastle, Gerald Edelman, and (later) Giulio Tononi; Francis Crick and Christof Koch; Walter Freeman and his students at Berkeley; Stanislaus Dehaene, Jean-Pierre Changeux, and their students in France; Karl Pribram and his grad students at Stanford (many of them my friends); and many others. ?
Dozens of research labs all over the planet are currently studying near simultaneities in the firing patterns of distributed neural networks or even quantum entanglement (Einstein?s??spooky action at a distance?) as processes required for conscious behavior. ?Some very key tests of these models have in fact been made, though further advances are currently awaiting for further developments in cosmology.
Again, not to belabor the point, here is a recent overview by Koch of his work with Crick and some of their rivals (amusingly not all of them, if you know anything about of Crick?s deep Nobel rivalry with Edelman):
Koch (2018) ?What is Consciousness??https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05097-x
Finally, how much interest do these?types?of questions raise today in the scientific community ? when compared, say, with public interests in ancient religious views of consciousness, e.g. in Buddhism or Jainism or virtually any Vedic scholastic tradition?
The answer is suggested in the enormous excitement generated by a mathematical paper published earlier this week in?Frontiers in Physics?? hardly a high-impact factor journal ? entitled "The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web.???
I've read the paper and don't view its claims as groundbreaking, since similar correlative or fractal-like views have been put forward in lots of recent theoretical papers in integrative systems biology. But my views aside, in its first 4 days after publication this paper was viewed by over 25,000 (sic!) people, and secondary discussions have already begun in social media widely used by theoretical physicists to exchange ideas.
Here?s the new paper on the brain and cosmos from 4 days ago;https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.525731/full
Sorry this one-time post has been so long?? but the topic is interesting and important! ?Quick summary:
1. Scientific approaches to consciousness have been critical to the work of a long list of famous physicists since at least the 1927 Solvay Conference on Electrons and Photons, marked by the famous arguments between Bohr and Einstein on the paradoxes in quantum mechanics;
2. Similar approaches have also been central to neurobiology since at least the 1970s, triggered by major empirical discoveries starting in the 1950s and early 1960s that I haven?t mentioned, especially by Mountcastle (in 1957on the columnar structure of the premotor cortex), by Hubel and Wiesel (on the similar structure of the visual cortex), and on discoveries of a different sort in the Soviet Union following many decades of anatomical work by Luria and his collaborators.
Warm regards,Steve Farmer
The Systems Biology GroupPalo Alto, CA

On Nov 20, 2020, at 8:21 AM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
 

    On Thursday, November 19, 2020, 10:36:17 PM GMT+5:30, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:  
 I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific paradigm. 

Dean writes:
Thanks for your valuable comment and information Dominik. I agree with you and Penrose, et al. Forgive me if I beg to differ, however, in considering it the "current scientific paradigm." But, as you point out, things are changing. We can only hope.

Best,
Dean
 

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 20:24, Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:


My response: I see the main objection would be the current scientific paradigm of materialism or physicalism which assumes that only material phenomena are real. Mental states, which would be how past or inter-life experiences would tend to be viewed, are considered to be epiphenomena which have no inherent reality but are mere outgrowths of physical brain functioning.


I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the current scientific paradigm.? Of course it depends on whom in the scientific community you listen to.? I've been watching some of the online lectures by Roger Penrose recently (he just got a Nobel).? He's proposing some very interesting and definitely non-physical speculations about the non-computable nature of consciousness.? He's not mainstream on these topics, at least amongst physicists, but he is a major voice.? And there are others too, in the rapidly-evolving field of consciousness studies.? There has always been a philosophical stream in Physics that thinks creatively about the consequences of quantum mechanics, such as non-locality, quantum entanglement, etc.? Henry Pierce Stapp, David Bohm, etc.? And anyway, is electromagnetic radiation, for example, best thought of as a "material phenomenon"?? Perhaps the science paradigm is not best thought about as material vs. nonmaterial, but as falsifiable vs. metaphysical.

Best,Dominik
--
Professor?Dominik Wujastyk,
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
Department of History and Classics,University of Alberta, Canada.

South Asia at the U of A:?sas.ualberta.ca
SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project
  _______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


  


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 01:28:06 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 20 18:28:06 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cre-A Ramakrishnan passes away
In-Reply-To: <AAC4127D-0257-4466-9D9A-10644B8DC559@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfJavNscQuy_j+Eb5e0=8HDw_Uvo0DgJCPnS6m826QUkA@mail.gmail.com>

I am very sad to hear this news.  I worked with Ramakrishnan in the context
of the work of Jim Nye and others in founding the Roja Muthiah Research
Library in the 90s.  He was a brilliant person, brimming with intelligence,
opinions, and energy.  He did so much for Tamil language, culture and
Indian culture as a whole.  He will be missed, indeed.

My condolences to his other friends here,

Dominik


On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 11:13, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Some members of the list may be interested in this sad news.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2020/nov/17/veteran-tamil-publisher-lexicographer-cre-a-ramakrishnan-dies-at-75-2224494.html
>
>
>
> The Indian edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy by Iravatham Mahadevan was
> published by Cre-A.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Palaniappan
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Nov 21 14:36:46 2020
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 15:36:46 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvZUmjS+dtkEyTTLf2szDBDg+U7_RwAkyw4T8jFG=203w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

I am working on a translation of the Pali Assalayana-sutta into Polish.

And - the problem, with the term vekura?ja. It appears in the text only
once, meaning - according to the context - possibly 'hybrid; crossbreed'.
But - I would like to be sure. The term is missing from Rhys-Davids and
Stede's dictionary, nor is it to be found (in some Sanskrit form) in the
Monier-Williams' dictionary.

Any tips - please?

With anti-pandemic greetings,

Artur Karp



<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Wolny
od wirus?w. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#m_-980892095519472141_m_-8887641329490902339_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sat Nov 21 15:08:21 2020
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 16:08:21 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cre-A Ramakrishnan passes away
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfJavNscQuy_j+Eb5e0=8HDw_Uvo0DgJCPnS6m826QUkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A70762B-FA1B-4922-86A1-117DE93E646E@uni-muenchen.de>

This is very saddening. I first met Ram on my very first trip to India, back in 1979. Our contact lessened in later years because I shifted away from Tamil towards Kannada studies (his consort Jayalakshmi gave me my first Kannada novels, and I still have the congratulatory telegram he sent me ? in the pre-internet age ? when I got my doctorate), yet I owe him a great deal, mainly indirectly, but importantly. He was a highly supportive, exemplarily open-minded, enthusing person, and he will indeed be sorely missed.

Robert Zydenbos



> On 21. Nov 2020, at 02:28, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> I am very sad to hear this news.  I worked with Ramakrishnan in the context of the work of Jim Nye and others in founding the Roja Muthiah Research Library in the 90s.  He was a brilliant person, brimming with intelligence, opinions, and energy.  He did so much for Tamil language, culture and Indian culture as a whole.  He will be missed, indeed.
> 
> My condolences to his other friends here,
> 
> Dominik
> 
> 
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 11:13, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Some members of the list may be interested in this sad news.
> 
>  
> 
> https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2020/nov/17/veteran-tamil-publisher-lexicographer-cre-a-ramakrishnan-dies-at-75-2224494.html <https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2020/nov/17/veteran-tamil-publisher-lexicographer-cre-a-ramakrishnan-dies-at-75-2224494.html>
>  
> 
> The Indian edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy by Iravatham Mahadevan was published by Cre-A.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Palaniappan
> 

--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Department f?r Asienstudien
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Deutschland




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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 15:35:54 2020
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 16:35:54 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvZUmjS+dtkEyTTLf2szDBDg+U7_RwAkyw4T8jFG=203w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c82ff0fa-c5ed-ff89-e4e7-0c91606d839e@gmail.com>

My tip:

vekura?j?ya (v.l. ku??a?) hi so, bho Gotama, assataro hoti.
May be it is a mule?
This kind of horse (assatara) is probably also called a "bastard; a son 
born in adultery" (=ku??a).

Heiner


Am 21.11.2020 um 15:36 schrieb Artur Karp via INDOLOGY:
> Dear List,
>
> I am working on a translation of the Pali Assalayana-sutta into Polish.
>
> And - the problem, with the term vekura?ja. It appears in the text 
> only once, meaning - according to the context - possibly 'hybrid; 
> crossbreed'. But - I would like to be sure. The term is missing from 
> Rhys-Davids and Stede's dictionary, nor is it to?be found (in some 
> Sanskrit form) in the Monier-Williams' dictionary.
>
> Any tips - please?
>
> With anti-pandemic greetings,
>
> Artur Karp
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> 
> 	Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com 
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> 
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 17:12:15 2020
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 18:12:15 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvZUmjS+dtkEyTTLf2szDBDg+U7_RwAkyw4T8jFG=203w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6c30f9c3-7ac8-80d7-7844-b64eaa431914@gmail.com>

Tip 2:

Neumann, Die Reden Gotama Buddhos (Majjhimanik?ya), vol II, p. 705 (n. 
228) reads
vekura?j?ya = vekuranv?ya=vaikriy?nvay?ya and translates:
Because of crossing (vekura?j?ya) it is a mule.

Heiner


Am 21.11.2020 um 15:36 schrieb Artur Karp via INDOLOGY:
> Dear List,
>
> I am working on a translation of the Pali Assalayana-sutta into Polish.
>
> And - the problem, with the term vekura?ja. It appears in the text 
> only once, meaning - according to the context - possibly 'hybrid; 
> crossbreed'. But - I would like to be sure. The term is missing from 
> Rhys-Davids and Stede's dictionary, nor is it to?be found (in some 
> Sanskrit form) in the Monier-Williams' dictionary.
>
> Any tips - please?
>
> With anti-pandemic greetings,
>
> Artur Karp
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> 
> 	Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com 
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> 
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 19:11:47 2020
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 14:11:47 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <6c30f9c3-7ac8-80d7-7844-b64eaa431914@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <707B9B52-E6F0-4609-88C0-7595EB0E7370@gmail.com>

Dear Artur and Rolf,

This may or may not be helpful.

Ta? ki? ma??asi assal?yana,idha va?ava? gadrabhena sampayojeyyu?. Tesa? sampayogamanv?ya kisoro j?yetha. Yo so va?av?ya gadrabhena kisoro uppanno siy?, so m?tupi sadiso pitupi sadiso, assoti vattabbo, gadrabhoti vattabbo'ti.
Vekura?j?ya hi1 so bho gotama, assataro hoti. Ida? [PTS Page 154] hissa bho gotama, n?n?kara?a? pass?mi. Amutra ca panes?na?2 na ki?ci n?n?kara?a?3 pass?m?ti. 
Ta? ki? ma??asi assal?yana, idhassu dve m??avak? bh?taro saudariy?, eko ajjh?yako upan?to, eko anajjh?yako anupan?to. Kamettha br?hma?? pa?hama? bhojeyyu? saddhe v? th?lip?ke v? ya??e v? p?hune4 v?ti?
?
1. Ku??a?hi-machasa? ,kum?ra??upihi-sy? 
2. Amutra ca pana - s?na?,sy? 
3. N?n?k?ra?a?-s?mu. 
4. P?hu?e-s?mu.[PTS 5.] Apa?ibh?no-[PTS]

Three English Translations:

?What do you think about this, Assal?yana? Suppose a mare were mated with an ass and as a result a foal were born of this mating. Would that foal of the mare and the ass be like the mother and also like the father, and should it be called ?horse? and also ?ass???
?Because of its crossed birth, good Gotama, it is a mule. This good Gotama, is a difference that I see for it, but elsewhere, for the others, I see no difference at all.?

(Tr. I.B. Horner)
?

14. ?What do you think, Assal?yana? Suppose a mare were to be mated with a male donkey, and a foal were to be born as the result. Should the foal be called a horse after the mother or a donkey after the father?? 
?It is a mule, Master Gotama, since it does not belong to either kind. [154] I see the difference in this last case, but I see no difference in either of the former cases.? 

(Tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
?

?What do you think, Assal?yana? ?
Ta? ki? ma??asi, assal?yana, 

Suppose a mare were to mate with a donkey, and she gave birth to a mule. 
idha va?ava? gadrabhena sampayojeyyu?, tesa? sampayogamanv?ya kisoro j?yetha; 

Would that mule be called a horse after the mother or a donkey after the father?? 
yo so va?av?ya gadrabhena kisoro uppanno, siy? so m?tupi sadiso pitupi sadiso, ?asso?tipi vattabbo ?gadrabho?tipi vattabbo?ti?
 
?It?s a mule, as it is a crossbreed. 
?Ku??a?hi so, bho gotama, assataro hoti. 

I see the difference in this case, 
Ida? hissa, bho gotama, n?n?kara?a? pass?mi; 

but not in the previous cases.? 
amutra ca panes?na? na ki?ci n?n?kara?a? pass?m??ti.

(Tr. Bhikkhu Sujato)

==
Note that SuttaCentral, following the PTS footnote, replaces Vekura?j?ya hi with ku??a?hi.
ku??a+hi. PTS P-E-Dict.: ?ku??a = bent, crooked?

In the Madhyama-?gama preserved in Chinese, the corresponding passage seems to elide the troublesome term and reads:

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The World-Honored One said: ?M??avaka (transliterated ??; a brahmin youth)! What do you think? If someone has a herd of many ?? cao ma(1), and there is one ?father? ass, and the cao ma and father ass mate, because of that mating, subsequently a colt is born, what do you say? Is it considered an ass or considered a horse??

The m??avaka A-she-he-luo-yan-duo-nan replied: ?Gautama! If a horse and an ass mate, and because of that mating subsequently a colt is born, I don?t say it is an ass, and I don?t say it is a horse. Gautama, I only say it is a mule ? luo (2).
?

(1) ?? cao ma = (MW) ?va?aba m. (also written va?ava, ba?ava, ba?aba) a male horse resembling a mare (and therefore attracting the stallion)? ? but here, it seems to be used to mean ?mare.? Lit. cao means ?grass? and ma means ?horse.?

(2) ? luo = ?A mule, which is the result of mating a mare with a donkey.?

That suggests either the non-Pali version of this ?gama had already eliminated the term, or the translator(s) glossed it (as did Bhikkhu Bodhi).

best,
Dan

> On Nov 21, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Tip 2:
> 
> Neumann, Die Reden Gotama Buddhos (Majjhimanik?ya), vol II, p. 705 (n. 228) reads
> vekura?j?ya = vekuranv?ya=vaikriy?nvay?ya and translates:
> Because of crossing (vekura?j?ya) it is a mule.
> 
> Heiner
> 
> 
> Am 21.11.2020 um 15:36 schrieb Artur Karp via INDOLOGY:
>> Dear List, 
>> 
>> I am working on a translation of the Pali Assalayana-sutta into Polish. 
>> 
>> And - the problem, with the term vekura?ja. It appears in the text only once, meaning - according to the context - possibly 'hybrid; crossbreed'. But - I would like to be sure. The term is missing from Rhys-Davids and Stede's dictionary, nor is it to be found (in some Sanskrit form) in the Monier-Williams' dictionary.
>> 
>> Any tips - please?
>> 
>> With anti-pandemic greetings,
>> 
>> Artur Karp
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>	Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> -- 
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com <http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sat Nov 21 22:57:14 2020
From: straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de (Martin Straube)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 23:57:14 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <707B9B52-E6F0-4609-88C0-7595EB0E7370@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20201121235714.Horde.n_N1Ja1d531ghhrhtqrns0c@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,

following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested  
an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article  
attached. This may or may not be helpful too.

With best wishes
Martin



-- 
Martin Straube
Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
Pali Text Society

Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
Indologie und Tibetologie
Deutschhausstrasse 12
35032 Marburg
Germany
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From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu  Sun Nov 22 00:40:36 2020
From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 19:40:36 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Text request: Nagarjuna's Ratnavali (Devanagari script)
Message-ID: <CAFZJJzHmN8S3aOF582WVKAO1X6v545W4wMhqjFm_rs=RRrObMw@mail.gmail.com>

On behalf of a student, I was wondering if any of you might have a PDF of
the Sanskrit edition of N?g?rjuna's Ratn?val? published in Varanasi by
Bharatiya Vidya Samsthana in 2003, edited by Avadhe?a Kum?ra Caube:
Ratn?val? / ?ryan?g?rjuna viracit? ; s?nvaya "Vimal?" Hind?vy?khy?sahit? ;
samp?daka? vy?khy?k?ra?ca Avadhe?a Kum?ra Caube.
If it is not available electronically, perhaps someone knows where I could
order a physical copy?

I am aware of the Indica et Tibetica Verlag 1982 edition of this work from
Michael Hahn, but if I am not mistaken that edition was published in Latin
script. My student requires the text in Devanagari.

Thanks very much!

Andrew

*Andrew J. Nicholson, Ph.D.*
Associate Professor, Asian and Asian American Studies
Director, History of Philosophies East and West M.A. Program
<https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/hpew/>
Director, Minor in South Asian Studies
<https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/asianamerican/programs/Program_SouthAsia.php>
Stony Brook University
Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
(631) 632-4030
http://philosophicalrasika.com/
Virtual office hours meeting room: https://stonybrook.zoom.us/j/7495611341


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Nov 22 03:17:34 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 20 19:17:34 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <20201121235714.Horde.n_N1Ja1d531ghhrhtqrns0c@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfCL3U_=7p4A6wC5JSvK5ZK0VTBJW2j1z6uhSfa8HbP8g@mail.gmail.com>

Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for *vekura?ja *as
coming from Skt. *dvaikulajanya*, there are expressions like
*dvaim?tura*, *???m?tura
etc. *The term *dvy?mu?y?ya?a* refers to a son with two fathers, one legal
and the other biological. The sons born out of the so-called *niyoga
*"levirate"
are described with this term.  The term *ku??a *used in the passage has a
meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a dual connection, suggesting
something unnatural, illegal.   So *dvaikulajanya* sounds like a very
possible source.  I wonder if there is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.
I read from earlier messages that the non-Pali versions translated into
Chinese show that this term was eliminated from the text, possibly being
considered some sort of an error.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>
> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested
> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article
> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>
> With best wishes
> Martin
>
>
>
> --
> Martin Straube
> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
> Pali Text Society
>
> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
> Indologie und Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstrasse 12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Nov 22 08:02:12 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 08:02:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Text request: Nagarjuna's Ratnavali (Devanagari script)
In-Reply-To: <CAFZJJzHmN8S3aOF582WVKAO1X6v545W4wMhqjFm_rs=RRrObMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BY5PR11MB43855EAA1FCC5294E01E4D6CA1FD0@BY5PR11MB4385.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Your student should be aware that Tucci?s edition and its various Devanagari successors - Vaidya?s edition etc. - are very much inferior to Hahn?s superb work on this text. In this case, the edition you are using makes a very great difference.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Andrew Nicholson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2020 1:40:36 AM
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Text request: Nagarjuna's Ratnavali (Devanagari script)

On behalf of a student, I was wondering if any of you might have a PDF of the Sanskrit edition of N?g?rjuna's Ratn?val? published in Varanasi by Bharatiya Vidya Samsthana in 2003, edited by Avadhe?a Kum?ra Caube:
Ratn?val? / ?ryan?g?rjuna viracit? ; s?nvaya "Vimal?" Hind?vy?khy?sahit? ; samp?daka? vy?khy?k?ra?ca Avadhe?a Kum?ra Caube.
If it is not available electronically, perhaps someone knows where I could order a physical copy?

I am aware of the Indica et Tibetica Verlag 1982 edition of this work from Michael Hahn, but if I am not mistaken that edition was published in Latin script. My student requires the text in Devanagari.

Thanks very much!

Andrew

Andrew J. Nicholson, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Asian and Asian American Studies
Director, History of Philosophies East and West M.A. Program<https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/hpew/>
Director, Minor in South Asian Studies<https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/asianamerican/programs/Program_SouthAsia.php>
Stony Brook University
Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
(631) 632-4030
http://philosophicalrasika.com/
Virtual office hours meeting room: https://stonybrook.zoom.us/j/7495611341



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From yogacara at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 09:47:55 2020
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 04:47:55 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfCL3U_=7p4A6wC5JSvK5ZK0VTBJW2j1z6uhSfa8HbP8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <700AC420-9842-4651-A9DB-399CC250532F@gmail.com>

I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.

As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine reproductive set:

?????????????1???????????????????
???????????????[7]??????????
?????????????????????????
?????????
??????????????
????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
[7]??????????????[8]???????????????????

Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than the other types.?
Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother. The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
[Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
[Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I follow them in saying it is a mule.?
[Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives birth to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1] Neither is the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as a juxu. So how do you know it as a juxu?
[Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for that reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?

?
1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a consequence of genomic imprinting.? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny> 

Is there a Skt term for a hinny?

Dan

> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for vekura?ja as coming from Skt. dvaikulajanya, there are expressions like dvaim?tura, ???m?tura etc. The term dvy?mu?y?ya?a refers to a son with two fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of the so-called niyoga "levirate" are described with this term.  The term ku??a used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a dual connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So dvaikulajanya sounds like a very possible source.  I wonder if there is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that the non-Pali versions translated into Chinese show that this term was eliminated from the text, possibly being considered some sort of an error.
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
> 
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> 
> 
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
> 
> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested  
> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article  
> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
> 
> With best wishes
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Martin Straube
> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
> Pali Text Society
> 
> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
> Indologie und Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstrasse 12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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From walter.slaje at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 11:00:32 2020
From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 12:00:32 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <700AC420-9842-4651-A9DB-399CC250532F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nWc2t5-bvV3D+M2ZYsBTFUsMAzr1+t3dHgLOkxV7eca_A@mail.gmail.com>

> ?A hinny is [...] the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female
donkey (a jenny)."
Is there a Skt term for a hinny?

Cp. Mok?op?ya  I.38.8:
avi?r?ntaman?? ??nyam ?yur ?tatam ?hate |
du?kh?yaiva vim??ho 'ntar garbham *a?vatar?* yath? ||

Bh?skaraka??ha explains it as follows:
"a?vatar?"* kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t?* va?av? | tasy? "garbha?" kuk?ip??ana?
vin? na niry?ti (Mok?op?ya??k? on I.13.8)

Cp. the translation by Roland Steiner (Wiesbaden 2014: p.52):
13.8 Ein innerlich verwirrter [Mensch, dessen] Denken *(manas)* nicht
beruhigt [ist], strebt nach einem leeren, ausgedehnten Leben, [das einem]
nichts anderes als Leiden [eintr?gt], wie eine *Maul??eselstute*[1] <#_ftn1>
eine Leibesfrucht [begehrt].

------------------------------

[1] <#_ftnref1> Eine Maul??eselstute (Vater: Pferdehengst; Mutter:
Eselstute) kann nach Bh?skaraka??ha nur mit Kaiserschnitt geb?ren; M? I *ad*
13.8: *a?vatar? kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? / tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana?
vin? na niry?ti*.


pw offers a series of entries of Sanskrit words for "Maulthier" (= "mule"):

https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on


and gives one entry for "Maulesel" (= "hinny"), namely dvij?t?ya. Schmidt
adds "?p?ra?ama":

https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on



Kind regards,

WS



Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 10:48 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.
>
> As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not
> currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In
> addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of
> the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi
> eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha
> about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu
> Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th
> c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the
> Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was
> glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine
> reproductive set:
>
> ?????????????1???????????????????
> ???????????????[7]??????????
> ?????????????????????????
> ?????????
> ??????????????
> ????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
> ?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
> [7]??????????????[8]???????????????????
>
> Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than
> the other types.?
> Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother.
> The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
> Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a
> mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
> [Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I
> follow them in saying it is a mule.?
> [Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives birth
> to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1] Neither is
> the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as a juxu. So
> how do you know it as a juxu?
> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for that
> reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?
>
> ?
> 1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts
> give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In
> English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that
> is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a
> jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the
> product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is
> distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a
> consequence of genomic imprinting.?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny
>
> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>
> Dan
>
> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for *vekura?ja *as
> coming from Skt. *dvaikulajanya*, there are expressions like *dvaim?tura*,
> *???m?tura etc. *The term *dvy?mu?y?ya?a* refers to a son with two
> fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of the
> so-called *niyoga *"levirate" are described with this term.  The term *ku??a
> *used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a dual
> connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So *dvaikulajanya* sounds
> like a very possible source.  I wonder if there is a northern Sanskrit
> ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that the non-Pali versions
> translated into Chinese show that this term was eliminated from the text,
> possibly being considered some sort of an error.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>>
>> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested
>> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article
>> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>>
>> With best wishes
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin Straube
>> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
>> Pali Text Society
>>
>> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>> Indologie und Tibetologie
>> Deutschhausstrasse 12
>> 35032 Marburg
>> Germany
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From yogacara at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 12:21:04 2020
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 07:21:04 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nWc2t5-bvV3D+M2ZYsBTFUsMAzr1+t3dHgLOkxV7eca_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A2A4F2B6-5282-4601-B54C-B041D71D0D94@gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Slaje,

Thank you for those examples. However, as far as I can tell, the idea that a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to be only in Steiner?s interpretation, not in the texts themselves. Bh?skaraka??ha only explains it as a female mule (khara = mule, str? = female animal). Similarly, dvij?t?ya similarly just means a mule, without specifying that the parents must be a male horse and a female donkey rather than the inverse.

Monier-Williams has around 24 terms that can mean a mule, several of which mean a she-mule (e.g., a?vatar?, khar?, etc.), typically by giving a word for mule a feminine form. For instance:

a?vatara b m. (P??. 5-3, 91 ) a mule, AV. iv, 4, 8 ; ?Br.  &c. 	      
(compar. of a?va) a better horse, Pat.       
a male calf, L. 	      
one of the chiefs of the N?gas, MBh. ; Hariv.  &c.	      
N. of a Gandharva, L.  	      
a?vatar? f. a better mare, Pat.     
a?vatar? f. a she-mule, AV. viii, 8, 22 ; MBh. &c.

But a she-mule is not a hinny. A mule has a male donkey and a female horse for parents. A hinny has the opposite: a male horse and a female donkey for parents. Mules and hinnies are physiologically different from each other as well. A hinny can be a male or a female.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> 

The wikipedia entry for ?mule? says the following about their fertility:
==
Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome>, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>.

A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[18] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-18>[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> Herodotus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus> gives an account of such an event as an ill omen of Xerxes' invasion of Greece <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece> in 480 BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at Sardis?a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus The Histories <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)> 7:57), and a mule's giving birth was a frequently recorded portent in antiquity, although scientific writers also doubted whether the thing was really possible (see e.g. Aristotle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>, Historia animalium, 6.24; Varro <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varro>, De re rustica, 2.1.28).

As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules birthing foals since 1527.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> In China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China> in 2001, a mare mule produced a filly <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filly>.[20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-FertileMule1985-20> In Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco> in early 2002 and Colorado <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado> in 2007, mare mules produced colts.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19>[21] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Npr2007-07-26-21>[22] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22> Blood and hair samples from the Colorado birth verified that the mother was indeed a mule and the foal was indeed her offspring.[22] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
A 1939 article in the Journal of Heredity describes two offspring of a fertile mare mule named "Old Bec", which was owned at the time by Texas A&M University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_University> in the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike her mother, she was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited Saddlebred <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Saddlebred> stallion, exhibited no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no characteristics of the donkey.[23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-JHeredity-30-12-23>
==

The wikipedia entry on ?hinny" has the following on fertility:
==
Hinnies are difficult to obtain because of the differences in the number of chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome> of the horse and the donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey>. A donkey has 62 chromosomes, whereas a horse has 64. Hinnies, being hybrids of those two species <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species>, have 63 chromosomes and are in the majority of cases sterile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>. The uneven number of chromosomes results in an incomplete reproductive system <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_system>. According to the ADMS: "The equine hybrid is easier to obtain when the lower chromosome count, the donkey, is in the male. Therefore breeding for hinnies is more hit-and-miss than breeding for mules."[2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-LongearLingo-2>
The male hinny or mule can and will mate, but the emission is not fertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility>. Male hinnies and mules <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> are usually castrated to help control their behavior by eliminating their interest in females.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>]

Female hinnies and mules are not customarily spayed, and may or may not go through estrus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrus>. Female mules have been known, on rare occasions, to produce offspring when mated to a horse or donkey, although this is extremely uncommon. Since 1527, sixty cases of foals born to female mules around the world have been documented.[4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> In contrast, according to the ADMS, there is only one known case of a female hinny doing so.

Namely, in China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>, in 1981, a hinny mare proved fertile with a donkey sire. When the Chinese hinny was bred to a jack, she produced the so-called "Dragon Foal", which resembled a donkey with mule-like features.[5] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-FertileMule1985-5> In Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco>, in 2002, a mule mare bred to a donkey sire produced a male foal.[4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> DNA testing revealed the foal has a mixed karyotype <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype> hybrid like the Chinese hinny offspring "Dragon Foal".[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>]

Hinnies are rare for many other reasons. Donkey jennies and horse stallions can be choosier about their mates than horse mares and donkey jacks.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>] Thus, the two parties involved may not even care to mate. Even if they do cooperate, donkey jennies are less likely to conceive when bred to a horse stallion than horse mares are when bred to a donkey jack. Breeding <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_breeding> large hinnies is an even bigger challenge, as it requires stock from a jenny of large size, such as the Baudet de Poitou <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudet_de_Poitou> or American Mammoth Donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mammoth_Donkey>. Mammoth donkey stock is becoming increasingly rare and has been declared an endangered domestic breed. Fanciers are unlikely to devote a Mammoth jenny's valuable breeding time to producing sterile hinny hybrids, when Mammoth jennies are in high demand to produce fertile purebred Mammoth foals

==

There is no mention of requiring caesarians.

Some of the mule terms in MW:

dvi?j?t?ya mfn. relating to the twice-born i.e. to the first 3 castes of twofold nature or mixed origin, mongrel. dvi?j?t?ya m. a mule.

m?ka ?the offspring of a mule and mare?

ru??a m. the offspring of a mule and a mare (also means ?maimed, mutilated; a headless body?)

vega?sara m. (cf. vesara) a mule.  	      
vega?sar? f. a female mule.

vesara m. (cf. vega-sara; also written ve?ara) a mule.  	      
vesar? f. a female mule.

sak?d?garbha m. ?having only one conception?, a mule.

sa?-ka?r??va m. ?mongrel horse?, a mule.

While some refer to female mules, I don?t think any of these terms specifically indicate a hinny, which, again, could be male or female. The Chinese terms clearly differentiate between a mule (? luo, the result of mating a mare with a donkey) and a hinny (?? juxu, result of mating a stallion with a female donkey). I remain curious what the underlying Sanskrit or prakrit term behind juxu might be.

with regards,
Dan

> On Nov 22, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> > ?A hinny is [...] the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny)." 
> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
> 
> Cp. Mok?op?ya  I.38.8:
> avi?r?ntaman?? ??nyam ?yur ?tatam ?hate |
> du?kh?yaiva vim??ho 'ntar garbham a?vatar? yath? ||
> 
> Bh?skaraka??ha explains it as follows:
> "a?vatar?" kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? | tasy? "garbha?" kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti (Mok?op?ya??k? on I.13.8)
> 
> Cp. the translation by Roland Steiner (Wiesbaden 2014: p.52):
> 13.8 Ein innerlich verwirrter [Mensch, dessen] Denken (manas) nicht beruhigt [ist], strebt nach einem leeren, ausgedehnten Leben, [das einem] nichts anderes als Leiden [eintr?gt], wie eine Maul??eselstute[1] <x-msg://6/#_ftn1> eine Leibesfrucht [begehrt].
> 
> [1] <x-msg://6/#_ftnref1> Eine Maul??eselstute (Vater: Pferdehengst; Mutter: Eselstute) kann nach Bh?skaraka??ha nur mit Kaiserschnitt geb?ren; M? I ad 13.8: a?vatar? kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? / tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti.
> 
> pw offers a series of entries of Sanskrit words for "Maulthier" (= "mule"): 
> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on <https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on>
> 
> and gives one entry for "Maulesel" (= "hinny"), namely dvij?t?ya. Schmidt adds "?p?ra?ama":
> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on <https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on>
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> WS
> 
> 
> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 10:48 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
> I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.
> 
> As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine reproductive set:
> 
> ?????????????1???????????????????
> ???????????????[7]??????????
> ?????????????????????????
> ?????????
> ??????????????
> ????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
> ?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
> [7]??????????????[8]???????????????????
> 
> Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than the other types.?
> Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother. The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
> Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
> [Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I follow them in saying it is a mule.?
> [Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives birth to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1] Neither is the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as a juxu. So how do you know it as a juxu?
> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for that reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?
> 
> ?
> 1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a consequence of genomic imprinting.? 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny> 
> 
> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
> 
> Dan
> 
>> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for vekura?ja as coming from Skt. dvaikulajanya, there are expressions like dvaim?tura, ???m?tura etc. The term dvy?mu?y?ya?a refers to a son with two fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of the so-called niyoga "levirate" are described with this term.  The term ku??a used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a dual connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So dvaikulajanya sounds like a very possible source.  I wonder if there is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that the non-Pali versions translated into Chinese show that this term was eliminated from the text, possibly being considered some sort of an error.
>> 
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>> 
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>> 
>> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested  
>> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article  
>> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>> 
>> With best wishes
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Martin Straube
>> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
>> Pali Text Society
>> 
>> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>> Indologie und Tibetologie
>> Deutschhausstrasse 12
>> 35032 Marburg
>> Germany
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> 
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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 12:37:35 2020
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 07:37:35 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <A2A4F2B6-5282-4601-B54C-B041D71D0D94@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FF8B3C5-0E52-4D6C-9EF7-3AFB7E6CB9AA@gmail.com>

On second look, a?va (not asv?), would be a male horse, so kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? would mean born from a female donkey and (male) horse, though I?m not sure what to make of va?av?/va?aba ?a male horse resembling a mare (and therefore attracting the stallion)? (MW).

So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny. But is that followed consistently in the literature?

Dan

> On Nov 22, 2020, at 7:21 AM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Prof. Slaje,
> 
> Thank you for those examples. However, as far as I can tell, the idea that a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to be only in Steiner?s interpretation, not in the texts themselves. Bh?skaraka??ha only explains it as a female mule (khara = mule, str? = female animal). Similarly, dvij?t?ya similarly just means a mule, without specifying that the parents must be a male horse and a female donkey rather than the inverse.
> 
> Monier-Williams has around 24 terms that can mean a mule, several of which mean a she-mule (e.g., a?vatar?, khar?, etc.), typically by giving a word for mule a feminine form. For instance:
> 
> a?vatara b m. (P??. 5-3, 91 ) a mule, AV. iv, 4, 8 ; ?Br.  &c. 	      
> (compar. of a?va) a better horse, Pat.       
> a male calf, L. 	      
> one of the chiefs of the N?gas, MBh. ; Hariv.  &c.	      
> N. of a Gandharva, L.  	      
> a?vatar? f. a better mare, Pat.     
> a?vatar? f. a she-mule, AV. viii, 8, 22 ; MBh. &c.
> 
> But a she-mule is not a hinny. A mule has a male donkey and a female horse for parents. A hinny has the opposite: a male horse and a female donkey for parents. Mules and hinnies are physiologically different from each other as well. A hinny can be a male or a female.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> 
> 
> The wikipedia entry for ?mule? says the following about their fertility:
> ==
> Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome>, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>.
> 
> A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[18] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-18>[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> Herodotus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus> gives an account of such an event as an ill omen of Xerxes' invasion of Greece <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece> in 480 BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at Sardis?a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus The Histories <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)> 7:57), and a mule's giving birth was a frequently recorded portent in antiquity, although scientific writers also doubted whether the thing was really possible (see e.g. Aristotle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>, Historia animalium, 6.24; Varro <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varro>, De re rustica, 2.1.28).
> 
> As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules birthing foals since 1527.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> In China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China> in 2001, a mare mule produced a filly <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filly>.[20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-FertileMule1985-20> In Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco> in early 2002 and Colorado <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado> in 2007, mare mules produced colts.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19>[21] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Npr2007-07-26-21>[22] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22> Blood and hair samples from the Colorado birth verified that the mother was indeed a mule and the foal was indeed her offspring.[22] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
> A 1939 article in the Journal of Heredity describes two offspring of a fertile mare mule named "Old Bec", which was owned at the time by Texas A&M University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_University> in the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike her mother, she was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited Saddlebred <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Saddlebred> stallion, exhibited no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no characteristics of the donkey.[23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-JHeredity-30-12-23>
> ==
> 
> The wikipedia entry on ?hinny" has the following on fertility:
> ==
> Hinnies are difficult to obtain because of the differences in the number of chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome> of the horse and the donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey>. A donkey has 62 chromosomes, whereas a horse has 64. Hinnies, being hybrids of those two species <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species>, have 63 chromosomes and are in the majority of cases sterile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>. The uneven number of chromosomes results in an incomplete reproductive system <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_system>. According to the ADMS: "The equine hybrid is easier to obtain when the lower chromosome count, the donkey, is in the male. Therefore breeding for hinnies is more hit-and-miss than breeding for mules."[2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-LongearLingo-2>
> The male hinny or mule can and will mate, but the emission is not fertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility>. Male hinnies and mules <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> are usually castrated to help control their behavior by eliminating their interest in females.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>]
> 
> Female hinnies and mules are not customarily spayed, and may or may not go through estrus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrus>. Female mules have been known, on rare occasions, to produce offspring when mated to a horse or donkey, although this is extremely uncommon. Since 1527, sixty cases of foals born to female mules around the world have been documented.[4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> In contrast, according to the ADMS, there is only one known case of a female hinny doing so.
> 
> Namely, in China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>, in 1981, a hinny mare proved fertile with a donkey sire. When the Chinese hinny was bred to a jack, she produced the so-called "Dragon Foal", which resembled a donkey with mule-like features.[5] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-FertileMule1985-5> In Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco>, in 2002, a mule mare bred to a donkey sire produced a male foal.[4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> DNA testing revealed the foal has a mixed karyotype <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype> hybrid like the Chinese hinny offspring "Dragon Foal".[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>]
> 
> Hinnies are rare for many other reasons. Donkey jennies and horse stallions can be choosier about their mates than horse mares and donkey jacks.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>] Thus, the two parties involved may not even care to mate. Even if they do cooperate, donkey jennies are less likely to conceive when bred to a horse stallion than horse mares are when bred to a donkey jack. Breeding <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_breeding> large hinnies is an even bigger challenge, as it requires stock from a jenny of large size, such as the Baudet de Poitou <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudet_de_Poitou> or American Mammoth Donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mammoth_Donkey>. Mammoth donkey stock is becoming increasingly rare and has been declared an endangered domestic breed. Fanciers are unlikely to devote a Mammoth jenny's valuable breeding time to producing sterile hinny hybrids, when Mammoth jennies are in high demand to produce fertile purebred Mammoth foals
> 
> ==
> 
> There is no mention of requiring caesarians.
> 
> Some of the mule terms in MW:
> 
> dvi?j?t?ya mfn. relating to the twice-born i.e. to the first 3 castes of twofold nature or mixed origin, mongrel. dvi?j?t?ya m. a mule.
> 
> m?ka ?the offspring of a mule and mare?
> 
> ru??a m. the offspring of a mule and a mare (also means ?maimed, mutilated; a headless body?)
> 
> vega?sara m. (cf. vesara) a mule.  	      
> vega?sar? f. a female mule.
> 
> vesara m. (cf. vega-sara; also written ve?ara) a mule.  	      
> vesar? f. a female mule.
> 
> sak?d?garbha m. ?having only one conception?, a mule.
> 
> sa?-ka?r??va m. ?mongrel horse?, a mule.
> 
> While some refer to female mules, I don?t think any of these terms specifically indicate a hinny, which, again, could be male or female. The Chinese terms clearly differentiate between a mule (? luo, the result of mating a mare with a donkey) and a hinny (?? juxu, result of mating a stallion with a female donkey). I remain curious what the underlying Sanskrit or prakrit term behind juxu might be.
> 
> with regards,
> Dan
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> > ?A hinny is [...] the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny)." 
>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>> 
>> Cp. Mok?op?ya  I.38.8:
>> avi?r?ntaman?? ??nyam ?yur ?tatam ?hate |
>> du?kh?yaiva vim??ho 'ntar garbham a?vatar? yath? ||
>> 
>> Bh?skaraka??ha explains it as follows:
>> "a?vatar?" kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? | tasy? "garbha?" kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti (Mok?op?ya??k? on I.13.8)
>> 
>> Cp. the translation by Roland Steiner (Wiesbaden 2014: p.52):
>> 13.8 Ein innerlich verwirrter [Mensch, dessen] Denken (manas) nicht beruhigt [ist], strebt nach einem leeren, ausgedehnten Leben, [das einem] nichts anderes als Leiden [eintr?gt], wie eine Maul??eselstute[1] <x-msg://6/#_ftn1> eine Leibesfrucht [begehrt].
>> 
>> [1] <x-msg://6/#_ftnref1> Eine Maul??eselstute (Vater: Pferdehengst; Mutter: Eselstute) kann nach Bh?skaraka??ha nur mit Kaiserschnitt geb?ren; M? I ad 13.8: a?vatar? kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? / tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti.
>> 
>> pw offers a series of entries of Sanskrit words for "Maulthier" (= "mule"): 
>> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on <https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on>
>> 
>> and gives one entry for "Maulesel" (= "hinny"), namely dvij?t?ya. Schmidt adds "?p?ra?ama":
>> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on <https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on>
>> 
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> WS
>> 
>> 
>> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 10:48 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
>> I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.
>> 
>> As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine reproductive set:
>> 
>> ?????????????1???????????????????
>> ???????????????[7]??????????
>> ?????????????????????????
>> ?????????
>> ??????????????
>> ????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
>> ?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
>> [7]??????????????[8]???????????????????
>> 
>> Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than the other types.?
>> Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother. The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
>> Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
>> [Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I follow them in saying it is a mule.?
>> [Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives birth to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1] Neither is the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as a juxu. So how do you know it as a juxu?
>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for that reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?
>> 
>> ?
>> 1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a consequence of genomic imprinting.? 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny> 
>> 
>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>>> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for vekura?ja as coming from Skt. dvaikulajanya, there are expressions like dvaim?tura, ???m?tura etc. The term dvy?mu?y?ya?a refers to a son with two fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of the so-called niyoga "levirate" are described with this term.  The term ku??a used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a dual connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So dvaikulajanya sounds like a very possible source.  I wonder if there is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that the non-Pali versions translated into Chinese show that this term was eliminated from the text, possibly being considered some sort of an error.
>>> 
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>>> 
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>>> 
>>> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested  
>>> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article  
>>> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>>> 
>>> With best wishes
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Martin Straube
>>> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
>>> Pali Text Society
>>> 
>>> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>>> Indologie und Tibetologie
>>> Deutschhausstrasse 12
>>> 35032 Marburg
>>> Germany
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
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>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
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>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sun Nov 22 12:56:27 2020
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 13:56:27 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <A2A4F2B6-5282-4601-B54C-B041D71D0D94@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20201122135627.Horde.u57hSi3gTA_uRdwHG81Ttl3@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Dear Prof. Lusthaus,

> the idea that a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to  
> be only in Steiner?s interpretation

My translation actually reflects Bh?skaraka??ha's explanation (hence  
the footnote quoting his commentary).

With regards,
Roland Steiner






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Nov 22 13:34:59 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 05:34:59 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <20201122135627.Horde.u57hSi3gTA_uRdwHG81Ttl3@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcktqj=6vFqJ-HPHcNw1nb339Qm8duFji_EpLtxuk9ZGQ@mail.gmail.com>

While Professor Dhadphale's etymology for *vekura?ja <dvaikulajanya *connects
*?ja *with *janya*, I have observed another Sanskrit usage with *j?a* that
may be of some interest. The word *svopaj?a* is conventionally used for
self-authored commentaries and one can see this word in numerous
publications.  Offhand, I don't know how old this expression is, and I have
not seen any traditional explanation of the word *svopaj?a*.  It seems to
me that the component *upaj?a *in this word makes better sense with the
verb *upaj?yate* than with *upaj?n?ti*.  So here we have a possible
instance of *j?a* in the sense of *janya*. Just an early morning thought.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 4:57 AM Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Prof. Lusthaus,
>
> > the idea that a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to
> > be only in Steiner?s interpretation
>
> My translation actually reflects Bh?skaraka??ha's explanation (hence
> the footnote quoting his commentary).
>
> With regards,
> Roland Steiner
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
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>


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From walter.slaje at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 13:41:43 2020
From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 14:41:43 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <4FF8B3C5-0E52-4D6C-9EF7-3AFB7E6CB9AA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nU0s7DKmqBevOY_deM1_4BRC_1+4PmApaW-2ab1QQ2nUw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Professor Lusthaus,

from Bh?skaraka??ha?s commentary we can only learn in what way he took
a?vatar? (f.) to mean in the given context.
In the given context, he equals a?vatar? (f.) with a va?av? (f.).
Therefore: va?av? (f.) stands for a?vatar?. a?vatar? = va?av? is what he
means to say. He uses va?av?, as a va?ava has a somewhat ambiguous nature:
?a male horse resembling a mare [...]? (MW).
However, he specifies what he actually means, because va?ava used by itself
is not sufficiently precise (in the given context):
kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? = ?born from a female donkey and (male) horse?, in
your own words.

?So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny?. Right. This is
exactly what I was getting at and what Roland Steiner's translation says.

Additional information can be extracted from Bh?skaraka??ha. If a female
hinny (a?vatar?) gets pregnant, he adds, foaling is not possible without
opening the abdomen (tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti).

I cannot find any translation or interpretation errors here.

Of course, everyone is free to question and to criticise premodern Indian
authors for their observations of nature. However, we should never forget
that in the present case we see the unspectacular depiction of an everyday
reality, and that the authors were able to observe their environment more
closely than we can today. If, what Bh?skaraka??ha had had to say about
female hinnies, had been made up, his explanation of the d????nta would
have come to nothing. He would have simply made a fool of himself among his
contemporaries. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. I for one believe he did
not.

Kind regards,
WS


Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 13:37 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com
>:

> On second look, a?va (not asv?), would be a male horse, so kharastriy?m
> a?v?j j?t? va?av? would mean born from a female donkey and (male) horse,
> though I?m not sure what to make of va?av?/va?aba ?a male horse resembling
> a mare (and therefore attracting the stallion)? (MW).
>
> So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny. But is that followed
> consistently in the literature?
>
> Dan
>
> On Nov 22, 2020, at 7:21 AM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Prof. Slaje,
>
> Thank you for those examples. However, as far as I can tell, the idea that
> a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to be only in Steiner?s
> interpretation, not in the texts themselves. Bh?skaraka??ha only explains
> it as a female mule (khara = mule, str? = female animal). Similarly, dvij?t?ya
> similarly just means a mule, without specifying that the parents must be a
> male horse and a female donkey rather than the inverse.
>
> Monier-Williams has around 24 terms that can mean a mule, several of which
> mean a she-mule (e.g., a?vatar?, khar?, etc.), typically by giving a word
> for mule a feminine form. For instance:
>
> a?vatara b m. (P??. 5-3, 91 ) a mule, AV. iv, 4, 8 ; ?Br.  &c.
> (compar. of a?va) a better horse, Pat.
> a male calf, L.
> one of the chiefs of the N?gas, MBh. ; Hariv.  &c.
> N. of a Gandharva, L.
> a?vatar? f. a better mare, Pat.
> a?vatar? f. a she-mule, AV. viii, 8, 22 ; MBh. &c.
>
> But a she-mule is not a hinny. A mule has a male donkey and a female horse
> for parents. A hinny has the opposite: a male horse and a female donkey for
> parents. Mules and hinnies are physiologically different from each other as
> well. A hinny can be a male or a female.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule
>
> The wikipedia entry for ?mule? says the following about their fertility:
> ==
>
> Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome>, a mixture of the horse's 64
> and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents
> the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos,
> rendering most mules infertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>.
>
> A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse
> or donkey.[18] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-18>[19]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> Herodotus
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus> gives an account of such an
> event as an ill omen of Xerxes' invasion of Greece
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece> in 480
> BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at
> Sardis?a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus *The
> Histories <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)>* 7:57),
> and a mule's giving birth was a frequently recorded portent in antiquity,
> although scientific writers also doubted whether the thing was really
> possible (see e.g. Aristotle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>, *Historia
> animalium*, 6.24; Varro <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varro>, *De re
> rustica*, 2.1.28).
>
> As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules
> birthing foals since 1527.[19]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> In China
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China> in 2001, a mare mule produced a
> filly <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filly>.[20]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-FertileMule1985-20> In
> Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco> in early 2002 and Colorado
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado> in 2007, mare mules produced
> colts.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19>[21]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Npr2007-07-26-21>[22]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
> Blood and hair samples from the Colorado birth verified that the mother was
> indeed a mule and the foal was indeed her offspring.[22]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
>
> A 1939 article in the *Journal of Heredity* describes two offspring of a
> fertile mare mule named "Old Bec", which was owned at the time by Texas
> A&M University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_University> in
> the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike her
> mother, she was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited Saddlebred
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Saddlebred> stallion, exhibited
> no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to
> several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no
> characteristics of the donkey.[23]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-JHeredity-30-12-23>
> ==
>
> The wikipedia entry on ?hinny" has the following on fertility:
> ==
>
> Hinnies are difficult to obtain because of the differences in the number
> of chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome> of the horse
> and the donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey>. A donkey has 62
> chromosomes, whereas a horse has 64. Hinnies, being hybrids of those two
> species <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species>, have 63 chromosomes and
> are in the majority of cases sterile
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>. The uneven number of
> chromosomes results in an incomplete reproductive system
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_system>. According to the
> ADMS: "The equine hybrid is easier to obtain when the lower chromosome
> count, the donkey, is in the male. Therefore breeding for hinnies is more
> hit-and-miss than breeding for mules."[2]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-LongearLingo-2>
>
> The male hinny or mule can and will mate, but the emission is not fertile
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility>. Male hinnies and mules
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> are usually castrated to help
> control their behavior by eliminating their interest in females.[*citation
> needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]
>
> Female hinnies and mules are not customarily spayed, and may or may not go
> through estrus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrus>. Female mules have
> been known, on rare occasions, to produce offspring when mated to a horse
> or donkey, although this is extremely uncommon. Since 1527, sixty cases of
> foals born to female mules around the world have been documented.[4]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> In contrast,
> according to the ADMS, there is only one known case of a female hinny doing
> so.
>
> Namely, in China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>, in 1981, a hinny
> mare proved fertile with a donkey sire. When the Chinese hinny was bred to
> a jack, she produced the so-called "Dragon Foal", which resembled a donkey
> with mule-like features.[5]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-FertileMule1985-5> In
> Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco>, in 2002, a mule mare
> bred to a donkey sire produced a male foal.[4]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> DNA testing
> revealed the foal has a mixed karyotype
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype> hybrid like the Chinese hinny
> offspring "Dragon Foal".[*citation needed
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]
>
> Hinnies are rare for many other reasons. Donkey jennies and horse
> stallions can be choosier about their mates than horse mares and donkey
> jacks.[*citation needed
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*] Thus, the two
> parties involved may not even care to mate. Even if they do cooperate,
> donkey jennies are less likely to conceive when bred to a horse stallion
> than horse mares are when bred to a donkey jack. Breeding
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_breeding> large hinnies is an even
> bigger challenge, as it requires stock from a jenny of large size, such as
> the Baudet de Poitou <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudet_de_Poitou> or American
> Mammoth Donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mammoth_Donkey>.
> Mammoth donkey stock is becoming increasingly rare and has been declared an
> endangered domestic breed. Fanciers are unlikely to devote a Mammoth
> jenny's valuable breeding time to producing sterile hinny hybrids, when
> Mammoth jennies are in high demand to produce fertile purebred Mammoth foals
> ==
>
> There is no mention of requiring caesarians.
>
> Some of the mule terms in MW:
>
> dvi?j?t?ya mfn. relating to the twice-born i.e. to the first 3 castes of
> twofold nature or mixed origin, mongrel. dvi?j?t?ya m. a mule.
>
> m?ka ?the offspring of a mule and mare?
>
> ru??a m. the offspring of a mule and a mare (also means ?maimed,
> mutilated; a headless body?)
>
> vega?sara m. (cf. vesara) a mule.
> vega?sar? f. a female mule.
>
> vesara m. (cf. vega-sara; also written ve?ara) a mule.
> vesar? f. a female mule.
>
> sak?d?garbha m. ?having only one conception?, a mule.
>
> sa?-ka?r??va m. ?mongrel horse?, a mule.
>
> While some refer to female mules, I don?t think any of these terms
> specifically indicate a hinny, which, again, could be male or female. The
> Chinese terms clearly differentiate between a mule (? luo, the result of
> mating a mare with a donkey) and a hinny (?? juxu, result of mating a
> stallion with a female donkey). I remain curious what the underlying
> Sanskrit or prakrit term behind juxu might be.
>
> with regards,
> Dan
>
> On Nov 22, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> > ?A hinny is [...] the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a
> female donkey (a jenny)."
> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>
> Cp. Mok?op?ya  I.38.8:
> avi?r?ntaman?? ??nyam ?yur ?tatam ?hate |
> du?kh?yaiva vim??ho 'ntar garbham *a?vatar?* yath? ||
>
> Bh?skaraka??ha explains it as follows:
> "a?vatar?"* kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t?* va?av? | tasy? "garbha?"
> kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti (Mok?op?ya??k? on I.13.8)
>
> Cp. the translation by Roland Steiner (Wiesbaden 2014: p.52):
> 13.8 Ein innerlich verwirrter [Mensch, dessen] Denken *(manas)* nicht
> beruhigt [ist], strebt nach einem leeren, ausgedehnten Leben, [das einem]
> nichts anderes als Leiden [eintr?gt], wie eine *Maul??eselstute*[1] eine
> Leibesfrucht [begehrt].
>
> ------------------------------
> [1] Eine Maul??eselstute (Vater: Pferdehengst; Mutter: Eselstute) kann
> nach Bh?skaraka??ha nur mit Kaiserschnitt geb?ren; M? I *ad* 13.8: *a?vatar?
> kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? / tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti*
> .
>
> pw offers a series of entries of Sanskrit words for "Maulthier" (=
> "mule"):
>
> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on
>
> and gives one entry for "Maulesel" (= "hinny"), namely dvij?t?ya. Schmidt
> adds "?p?ra?ama":
>
> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on
>
>
> Kind regards,
> WS
>
>
> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 10:48 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.
>>
>> As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not
>> currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In
>> addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of
>> the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi
>> eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha
>> about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu
>> Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th
>> c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the
>> Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was
>> glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine
>> reproductive set:
>>
>> ?????????????1???????????????????
>> ???????????????[7]??????????
>> ?????????????????????????
>> ?????????
>> ??????????????
>> ????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
>> ?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
>> [7]??????????????[8]???????????????????
>>
>> Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than
>> the other types.?
>> Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother.
>> The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
>> Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a
>> mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
>> [Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I
>> follow them in saying it is a mule.?
>> [Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives birth
>> to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1] Neither is
>> the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as a juxu. So
>> how do you know it as a juxu?
>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for
>> that reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?
>>
>> ?
>> 1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts
>> give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In
>> English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that
>> is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a
>> jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the
>> product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is
>> distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a
>> consequence of genomic imprinting.?
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny
>>
>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for *vekura?ja *as
>> coming from Skt. *dvaikulajanya*, there are expressions like *dvaim?tura*,
>> *???m?tura etc. *The term *dvy?mu?y?ya?a* refers to a son with two
>> fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of the
>> so-called *niyoga *"levirate" are described with this term.  The term *ku??a
>> *used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a
>> dual connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So
>> *dvaikulajanya* sounds like a very possible source.  I wonder if there
>> is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that
>> the non-Pali versions translated into Chinese show that this term was
>> eliminated from the text, possibly being considered some sort of an error.
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>>>
>>> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested
>>> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article
>>> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>>>
>>> With best wishes
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Martin Straube
>>> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
>>> Pali Text Society
>>>
>>> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>>> Indologie und Tibetologie
>>> Deutschhausstrasse 12
>>> 35032 Marburg
>>> Germany
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> committee)
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> committee)
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:57:05 2020
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 20 09:57:05 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Text request: Nagarjuna's Ratnavali (Devanagari script)
In-Reply-To: <BY5PR11MB43855EAA1FCC5294E01E4D6CA1FD0@BY5PR11MB4385.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekaZyXtfa8R7FS10vu+5tw9sDDG+9Oc7Es6A_j2mamZ7Eg@mail.gmail.com>

Good point by Matthew. Hahn's edition is still available from the publisher:

http://www.iet-verlag.de/ser_iet20.html#i01

I have not seen Caube's edition. Possibly he used Hahn's edition. I have
posted only Tucci's edition, because Hahn's edition is still in print.

http://www.downloads.prajnaquest.fr/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/ratnavali_1934-1936_partial.pdf

Tucci's edition of the parts then found was given by P. L. Vaidya in
Devanagari script as an appendix in his 1960 *Madhyamaka??stra of N?g?rjuna*.
This book was reprinted in 1987, but now the editor is stated as Shridhar
Tripathi rather than P. L. Vaidya. It is number 10 in the Buddhist Sanskrit
Texts series from Darbhanga.

In 1980 Siglinde Dietz published most of chapter 5 (in Latin script)
in the *Journal
of the Nepal Research Centre* (vol. 4), recovered from a manuscript not
used by Tucci. This manuscript also provided some corrections to the parts
published by Tucci. All of this material was fully used in Hahn's edition.
I attach the article by Dietz.

Lastly, the third chapter, which was entirely missing in both manuscripts,
was retranslated into Sanskrit by Losang Jamspal and published (in Latin
script) along with the edited Tibetan text in the festschrift to Robert
Thurman titled, *In Vimalak?rti's House*, 2015, pp. 289-313.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 1:02 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Your student should be aware that Tucci?s edition and its various
> Devanagari successors - Vaidya?s edition etc. - are very much inferior to
> Hahn?s superb work on this text. In this case, the edition you are using
> makes a very great difference.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Andrew Nicholson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 22, 2020 1:40:36 AM
> *To:* Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Text request: Nagarjuna's Ratnavali (Devanagari
> script)
>
> On behalf of a student, I was wondering if any of you might have a PDF of
> the Sanskrit edition of N?g?rjuna's Ratn?val? published in Varanasi by
> Bharatiya Vidya Samsthana in 2003, edited by Avadhe?a Kum?ra Caube:
> Ratn?val? / ?ryan?g?rjuna viracit? ; s?nvaya "Vimal?" Hind?vy?khy?sahit?
> ; samp?daka? vy?khy?k?ra?ca Avadhe?a Kum?ra Caube.
> If it is not available electronically, perhaps someone knows where I could
> order a physical copy?
>
> I am aware of the Indica et Tibetica Verlag 1982 edition of this work from
> Michael Hahn, but if I am not mistaken that edition was published in Latin
> script. My student requires the text in Devanagari.
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> Andrew
>
> *Andrew J. Nicholson, Ph.D.*
> Associate Professor, Asian and Asian American Studies
> Director, History of Philosophies East and West M.A. Program
> <https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/hpew/>
> Director, Minor in South Asian Studies
> <https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/asianamerican/programs/Program_SouthAsia.php>
> Stony Brook University
> Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343  USA
> (631) 632-4030
> http://philosophicalrasika.com/
> Virtual office hours meeting room: https://stonybrook.zoom.us/j/7495611341
>
> _______________________________________________
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From walter.slaje at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 09:53:29 2020
From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 10:53:29 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nU0s7DKmqBevOY_deM1_4BRC_1+4PmApaW-2ab1QQ2nUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nXNjX-jSf00q=Q97DsdLqT3RZZSPksCL6uqbzH0R9Czkw@mail.gmail.com>

As an addendum to the question whether Bh?skaraka??ha would have made a
fool of himself or not by his claim, let me draw your attention to
?nandabodhendrasarasvat??s commentary  *V?si??hamah?r?m?ya?at?tparyaprak??a*
(AD 1710 [Karl-Heinz Golzio IIJ 47 (2004): 301ff]) on the *Yogav?si??ha*,
where the passage occurs in identical wording (= *Yogav?si??ha* I.14.8).
His explanation matches the one given by Bh?skaraka??ha (AD 1725-1775
[Stanislav
Jager, Bh?skaraka??has *Citt?nubodha??stra*. Marburg 2018: 15]):

*a?v?d gardabhy?m utpann? a?vatar?* | *tasy? udaravid?ra?enaiva
garbhanirgamana? **prasiddham* (VTP on YV I.14.8)

?An *a?vatar?* is born from a female donkey (*gardabh?*) and a male horse (
*a?va*). It is well known that the foal can only come out [of the mother]
by opening her belly.?



See also *Sa?ghabhedavastu* (ed. Gnoli, p. 72, ll. 20f):

*vadh?ya a?vatar? garbha? g?h??ti; par?bhav?ya a?vatar? garbha? g?h??ti *



The *Mah?bh?rata* has a cognate passage:

*sa m?tyum upag?hy?ste garbham a?vatar? yath?* || MBh 12.138.30cd ||

?The (king who does not restrain the enemy whom he has bent down with the
rod of force) sits holding death to his bosom, like a mule with a foal in
her belly.? (Fitzgerald, p. 531).



The idea that a female hinny would not survive the birth of her foal was
obviously widespread and ?nandabodhendra explicitly states this as a
well-known fact (*prasiddha*).

At least that much can be said that Bh?skaraka??ha?s explanation would
certainly have been accepted as plausible by his contemporaries.



For this reason, I would not put too much trust in the dictionary entries,
as their authors, who apparently were not always sufficiently versed in
natural history, could not tell the difference between mule and hinny. To
them, any crossbreed between a donkey and a horse equalled a ?mule?. This
is probably the reason why the (English) dictionaries show no entries of
the term ?hinny? at all, but use ?mule? throughout without further
distinction.

It must, however, be said that in the given context of the risk of death
for a pregnant female ?hinny?, N?laka??ha?s elucidation of the above-quoted MBh
12.138.30cd (= MBh 12.140.30cd) contradicts the one of ?nandabodhendra and
Bh?skaraka??ha. His would point to a mule instead a hinny, as N?laka??ha
uses *gardabha-j?*. If this reading is correct, he seems to have had a
crossbreed between a male donkey (*gardabha*) and a mare in mind. In this
case, he either displays an inaccurate knowledge or shows the same
indifference as the dictionaries do to facts of nature, which were perhaps
dismissed as insignificant. However, in light of what other Indian authors
had had to say on the subject, I have my doubts whether, given the
uncritical state of the edition of N?laka??ha?s commentary (I have quoted
from Pu?e 1932), variants with *gardabh?-j?* would not come to light one
day. Reading gardabh*?*-j?, it would match our hinny from above. Here is
the line, which in its present editorial state runs as follows:

*a?vatar? gardabhaj? a?v? udarabhedenaiva pras?ta iti prasiddham *

?An *a?vatar?* is a mare born from a (male) donkey. It is well known that
[this mare] can only give birth [to a foal] by opening her belly.?



The unsolved question of whether a difference was made between mule and
hinny in pre-modern India still needs to be investigated. I trust it was.


Regards,

WS


Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 14:41 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje <
walter.slaje at gmail.com>:

> Dear Professor Lusthaus,
>
> from Bh?skaraka??ha?s commentary we can only learn in what way he took
> a?vatar? (f.) to mean in the given context.
> In the given context, he equals a?vatar? (f.) with a va?av? (f.).
> Therefore: va?av? (f.) stands for a?vatar?. a?vatar? = va?av? is what he
> means to say. He uses va?av?, as a va?ava has a somewhat ambiguous nature:
> ?a male horse resembling a mare [...]? (MW).
> However, he specifies what he actually means, because va?ava used by
> itself is not sufficiently precise (in the given context):
> kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? = ?born from a female donkey and (male) horse?, in
> your own words.
>
> ?So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny?. Right. This is
> exactly what I was getting at and what Roland Steiner's translation says.
>
> Additional information can be extracted from Bh?skaraka??ha. If a female
> hinny (a?vatar?) gets pregnant, he adds, foaling is not possible without
> opening the abdomen (tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti).
>
> I cannot find any translation or interpretation errors here.
>
> Of course, everyone is free to question and to criticise premodern Indian
> authors for their observations of nature. However, we should never forget
> that in the present case we see the unspectacular depiction of an everyday
> reality, and that the authors were able to observe their environment more
> closely than we can today. If, what Bh?skaraka??ha had had to say about
> female hinnies, had been made up, his explanation of the d????nta would
> have come to nothing. He would have simply made a fool of himself among his
> contemporaries. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. I for one believe he did
> not.
>
> Kind regards,
> WS
>
>
> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 13:37 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus <
> prajnapti at gmail.com>:
>
>> On second look, a?va (not asv?), would be a male horse, so kharastriy?m
>> a?v?j j?t? va?av? would mean born from a female donkey and (male) horse,
>> though I?m not sure what to make of va?av?/va?aba ?a male horse resembling
>> a mare (and therefore attracting the stallion)? (MW).
>>
>> So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny. But is that followed
>> consistently in the literature?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2020, at 7:21 AM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Prof. Slaje,
>>
>> Thank you for those examples. However, as far as I can tell, the idea
>> that a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to be only in
>> Steiner?s interpretation, not in the texts themselves. Bh?skaraka??ha only
>> explains it as a female mule (khara = mule, str? = female animal).
>> Similarly, dvij?t?ya similarly just means a mule, without specifying
>> that the parents must be a male horse and a female donkey rather than the
>> inverse.
>>
>> Monier-Williams has around 24 terms that can mean a mule, several of
>> which mean a she-mule (e.g., a?vatar?, khar?, etc.), typically by giving
>> a word for mule a feminine form. For instance:
>>
>> a?vatara b m. (P??. 5-3, 91 ) a mule, AV. iv, 4, 8 ; ?Br.  &c.
>> (compar. of a?va) a better horse, Pat.
>> a male calf, L.
>> one of the chiefs of the N?gas, MBh. ; Hariv.  &c.
>> N. of a Gandharva, L.
>> a?vatar? f. a better mare, Pat.
>> a?vatar? f. a she-mule, AV. viii, 8, 22 ; MBh. &c.
>>
>> But a she-mule is not a hinny. A mule has a male donkey and a female
>> horse for parents. A hinny has the opposite: a male horse and a female
>> donkey for parents. Mules and hinnies are physiologically different from
>> each other as well. A hinny can be a male or a female.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule
>>
>> The wikipedia entry for ?mule? says the following about their fertility:
>> ==
>>
>> Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome>, a mixture of the horse's 64
>> and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents
>> the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos,
>> rendering most mules infertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>.
>>
>>
>> A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse
>> or donkey.[18] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-18>[19]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> Herodotus
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus> gives an account of such an
>> event as an ill omen of Xerxes' invasion of Greece
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece> in 480
>> BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at
>> Sardis?a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus *The
>> Histories <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)>* 7:57),
>> and a mule's giving birth was a frequently recorded portent in antiquity,
>> although scientific writers also doubted whether the thing was really
>> possible (see e.g. Aristotle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>, *Historia
>> animalium*, 6.24; Varro <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varro>, *De re
>> rustica*, 2.1.28).
>>
>> As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules
>> birthing foals since 1527.[19]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> In China
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China> in 2001, a mare mule produced a
>> filly <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filly>.[20]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-FertileMule1985-20> In
>> Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco> in early 2002 and
>> Colorado <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado> in 2007, mare mules
>> produced colts.[19]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19>[21]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Npr2007-07-26-21>[22]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
>> Blood and hair samples from the Colorado birth verified that the mother was
>> indeed a mule and the foal was indeed her offspring.[22]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
>>
>> A 1939 article in the *Journal of Heredity* describes two offspring of a
>> fertile mare mule named "Old Bec", which was owned at the time by Texas
>> A&M University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_University> in
>> the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike her
>> mother, she was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited Saddlebred
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Saddlebred> stallion, exhibited
>> no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to
>> several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no
>> characteristics of the donkey.[23]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-JHeredity-30-12-23>
>> ==
>>
>> The wikipedia entry on ?hinny" has the following on fertility:
>> ==
>>
>> Hinnies are difficult to obtain because of the differences in the number
>> of chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome> of the horse
>> and the donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey>. A donkey has 62
>> chromosomes, whereas a horse has 64. Hinnies, being hybrids of those two
>> species <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species>, have 63 chromosomes and
>> are in the majority of cases sterile
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>. The uneven number of
>> chromosomes results in an incomplete reproductive system
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_system>. According to the
>> ADMS: "The equine hybrid is easier to obtain when the lower chromosome
>> count, the donkey, is in the male. Therefore breeding for hinnies is more
>> hit-and-miss than breeding for mules."[2]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-LongearLingo-2>
>>
>> The male hinny or mule can and will mate, but the emission is not fertile
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility>. Male hinnies and mules
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> are usually castrated to help
>> control their behavior by eliminating their interest in females.[*citation
>> needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]
>>
>> Female hinnies and mules are not customarily spayed, and may or may not
>> go through estrus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrus>. Female mules
>> have been known, on rare occasions, to produce offspring when mated to a
>> horse or donkey, although this is extremely uncommon. Since 1527, sixty
>> cases of foals born to female mules around the world have been documented.
>> [4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> In
>> contrast, according to the ADMS, there is only one known case of a female
>> hinny doing so.
>>
>> Namely, in China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>, in 1981, a hinny
>> mare proved fertile with a donkey sire. When the Chinese hinny was bred to
>> a jack, she produced the so-called "Dragon Foal", which resembled a donkey
>> with mule-like features.[5]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-FertileMule1985-5> In
>> Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco>, in 2002, a mule mare
>> bred to a donkey sire produced a male foal.[4]
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> DNA testing
>> revealed the foal has a mixed karyotype
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype> hybrid like the Chinese hinny
>> offspring "Dragon Foal".[*citation needed
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]
>>
>> Hinnies are rare for many other reasons. Donkey jennies and horse
>> stallions can be choosier about their mates than horse mares and donkey
>> jacks.[*citation needed
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*] Thus, the
>> two parties involved may not even care to mate. Even if they do cooperate,
>> donkey jennies are less likely to conceive when bred to a horse stallion
>> than horse mares are when bred to a donkey jack. Breeding
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_breeding> large hinnies is an even
>> bigger challenge, as it requires stock from a jenny of large size, such as
>> the Baudet de Poitou <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudet_de_Poitou> or American
>> Mammoth Donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mammoth_Donkey>.
>> Mammoth donkey stock is becoming increasingly rare and has been declared an
>> endangered domestic breed. Fanciers are unlikely to devote a Mammoth
>> jenny's valuable breeding time to producing sterile hinny hybrids, when
>> Mammoth jennies are in high demand to produce fertile purebred Mammoth foals
>> ==
>>
>> There is no mention of requiring caesarians.
>>
>> Some of the mule terms in MW:
>>
>> dvi?j?t?ya mfn. relating to the twice-born i.e. to the first 3 castes of
>> twofold nature or mixed origin, mongrel. dvi?j?t?ya m. a mule.
>>
>> m?ka ?the offspring of a mule and mare?
>>
>> ru??a m. the offspring of a mule and a mare (also means ?maimed,
>> mutilated; a headless body?)
>>
>> vega?sara m. (cf. vesara) a mule.
>> vega?sar? f. a female mule.
>>
>> vesara m. (cf. vega-sara; also written ve?ara) a mule.
>> vesar? f. a female mule.
>>
>> sak?d?garbha m. ?having only one conception?, a mule.
>>
>> sa?-ka?r??va m. ?mongrel horse?, a mule.
>>
>> While some refer to female mules, I don?t think any of these terms
>> specifically indicate a hinny, which, again, could be male or female. The
>> Chinese terms clearly differentiate between a mule (? luo, the result of
>> mating a mare with a donkey) and a hinny (?? juxu, result of mating a
>> stallion with a female donkey). I remain curious what the underlying
>> Sanskrit or prakrit term behind juxu might be.
>>
>> with regards,
>> Dan
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> > ?A hinny is [...] the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a
>> female donkey (a jenny)."
>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>>
>> Cp. Mok?op?ya  I.38.8:
>> avi?r?ntaman?? ??nyam ?yur ?tatam ?hate |
>> du?kh?yaiva vim??ho 'ntar garbham *a?vatar?* yath? ||
>>
>> Bh?skaraka??ha explains it as follows:
>> "a?vatar?"* kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t?* va?av? | tasy? "garbha?"
>> kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti (Mok?op?ya??k? on I.13.8)
>>
>> Cp. the translation by Roland Steiner (Wiesbaden 2014: p.52):
>> 13.8 Ein innerlich verwirrter [Mensch, dessen] Denken *(manas)* nicht
>> beruhigt [ist], strebt nach einem leeren, ausgedehnten Leben, [das einem]
>> nichts anderes als Leiden [eintr?gt], wie eine *Maul??eselstute*[1] eine
>> Leibesfrucht [begehrt].
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> [1] Eine Maul??eselstute (Vater: Pferdehengst; Mutter: Eselstute) kann
>> nach Bh?skaraka??ha nur mit Kaiserschnitt geb?ren; M? I *ad* 13.8: *a?vatar?
>> kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? / tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti*
>> .
>>
>> pw offers a series of entries of Sanskrit words for "Maulthier" (=
>> "mule"):
>>
>> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on
>>
>> and gives one entry for "Maulesel" (= "hinny"), namely dvij?t?ya. Schmidt
>> adds "?p?ra?ama":
>>
>> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> WS
>>
>>
>> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 10:48 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info>:
>>
>>> I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.
>>>
>>> As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not
>>> currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In
>>> addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of
>>> the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi
>>> eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha
>>> about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu
>>> Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th
>>> c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the
>>> Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was
>>> glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine
>>> reproductive set:
>>>
>>> ?????????????1???????????????????
>>> ???????????????[7]??????????
>>> ?????????????????????????
>>> ?????????
>>> ??????????????
>>> ????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
>>> ?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
>>> [7]??????????????[8]???????????????????
>>>
>>> Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than
>>> the other types.?
>>> Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother.
>>> The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
>>> Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a
>>> mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
>>> [Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
>>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I
>>> follow them in saying it is a mule.?
>>> [Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives
>>> birth to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1]
>>> Neither is the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as
>>> a juxu. So how do you know it as a juxu?
>>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for
>>> that reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?
>>>
>>> ?
>>> 1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts
>>> give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In
>>> English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that
>>> is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a
>>> jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the
>>> product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is
>>> distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a
>>> consequence of genomic imprinting.?
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny
>>>
>>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for *vekura?ja *as
>>> coming from Skt. *dvaikulajanya*, there are expressions like
>>> *dvaim?tura*, *???m?tura etc. *The term *dvy?mu?y?ya?a* refers to a son
>>> with two fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of
>>> the so-called *niyoga *"levirate" are described with this term.  The
>>> term *ku??a *used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but
>>> having a dual connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So
>>> *dvaikulajanya* sounds like a very possible source.  I wonder if there
>>> is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that
>>> the non-Pali versions translated into Chinese show that this term was
>>> eliminated from the text, possibly being considered some sort of an error.
>>>
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>>> India
>>>
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>>>>
>>>> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested
>>>> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article
>>>> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>>>>
>>>> With best wishes
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Martin Straube
>>>> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
>>>> Pali Text Society
>>>>
>>>> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>>>> Indologie und Tibetologie
>>>> Deutschhausstrasse 12
>>>> 35032 Marburg
>>>> Germany
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From beate.guttandin at uni-bonn.de  Mon Nov 23 14:29:15 2020
From: beate.guttandin at uni-bonn.de (Beate Guttandin)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 15:29:15 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for an input to the next newsletter of the Indology-list
Message-ID: <5BEDA840-B913-4002-8D4D-804E890596D0@uni-bonn.de>


Dear managers of the Indology-list: Would it be possible to add this input to the next newsletter?
Thank you very much, Beate


Dear members of the Indology-List,

 

here is the announcement of my book with 8 modern Sanskrit-narratives with transliteration from devan?gar? and a translation into German with a short intro.

https://www.verlagdrkovac.de/978-3-339-11838-7.htm <https://www.verlagdrkovac.de/978-3-339-11838-7.htm>
I am also working on an English translation and would be happy to know about publishers in the United States who might be interested.

Colleagues, who might like to give me a comment or some remarks concerning this book are very welcome.

If some would like to write a review in some journal, the publisher will gladly send a book or an e-book on request.

I?d be very happy to know of those of you who work on modern Sanskrit literature so that we might find some possibilities to exchange information on that research field.

 

With kind regards

Beate Guttandin


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From yogacara at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 15:26:07 2020
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 10:26:07 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nXNjX-jSf00q=Q97DsdLqT3RZZSPksCL6uqbzH0R9Czkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A5D9312-F9EF-40CE-9599-4F24A002EA10@gmail.com>

I appreciate the additional information and sources. This confirms that for at least some authors, a?vatar? was used for hinny. It is still unclear whether that was specialized usage for just these authors, or implicit for all authors and texts even when not specifically explained as such. That Bh?skaraka??ha and ?nandabodhendrasarasvat??s had to provide that explanation, and in similar terms, might suggest that that meaning of the term was not that well known, thus requiring explanation, as well as suggesting that they are drawing on the same or a similar tradition which, since both lived in the 18th century, may or may not have been how the term was used prior to that time. The term is old, appearing in Br?hma?as, the Ch?ndogya-U., Atharva-veda, Mah?bh?rat?, etc.

Since the Chinese translation of the independent non-Pali version of the Assal?yana sutta was made in the late 4th century, and clearly differentiated mules from hinnies by parentage as well as assigning each its own designation ? ?? juxu for hinny and ? luo for mule ? one might assume that the Indic original did so as well, though that is not available to us. It is possible that a?vatar? was the term translated as juxu, but that is not certain. One might also assume that given the importance of equine species for both Indian and Chinese cultures from an early period, they would have been keen observers of breeding habits.

Female hinnies giving birth to foals is apparently a fairly rare event, but I haven?t seen anything in the modern literature indicating it requires C-sections, though hybrids between lions and tigers (which, since they roam in different territories only happens in captivity, often involves birth defects) do often require C-sections.

Again, thank you for that information.

best wishes,
Dan

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 4:53 AM, Walter Slaje <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As an addendum to the question whether Bh?skaraka??ha would have made a fool of himself or not by his claim, let me draw your attention to ?nandabodhendrasarasvat??s commentary  V?si??hamah?r?m?ya?at?tparyaprak??a (AD 1710 [Karl-Heinz Golzio IIJ 47 (2004): 301ff]) on the Yogav?si??ha, where the passage occurs in identical wording (= Yogav?si??ha I.14.8). His explanation matches the one given by Bh?skaraka??ha (AD 1725-1775 [Stanislav Jager, Bh?skaraka??has Citt?nubodha??stra. Marburg 2018: 15]):
> a?v?d gardabhy?m utpann? a?vatar? | tasy? udaravid?ra?enaiva garbhanirgamana? prasiddham (VTP on YV I.14.8)
> ?An a?vatar? is born from a female donkey (gardabh?) and a male horse (a?va). It is well known that the foal can only come out [of the mother] by opening her belly.?
>  
> See also Sa?ghabhedavastu (ed. Gnoli, p. 72, ll. 20f):
> vadh?ya a?vatar? garbha? g?h??ti; par?bhav?ya a?vatar? garbha? g?h??ti
>  
> The Mah?bh?rata has a cognate passage:
> sa m?tyum upag?hy?ste garbham a?vatar? yath? || MBh 12.138.30cd ||
> ?The (king who does not restrain the enemy whom he has bent down with the rod of force) sits holding death to his bosom, like a mule with a foal in her belly.? (Fitzgerald, p. 531).
>  
> The idea that a female hinny would not survive the birth of her foal was obviously widespread and ?nandabodhendra explicitly states this as a well-known fact (prasiddha).
> At least that much can be said that Bh?skaraka??ha?s explanation would certainly have been accepted as plausible by his contemporaries.
>  
> For this reason, I would not put too much trust in the dictionary entries, as their authors, who apparently were not always sufficiently versed in natural history, could not tell the difference between mule and hinny. To them, any crossbreed between a donkey and a horse equalled a ?mule?. This is probably the reason why the (English) dictionaries show no entries of the term ?hinny? at all, but use ?mule? throughout without further distinction.
> It must, however, be said that in the given context of the risk of death for a pregnant female ?hinny?, N?laka??ha?s elucidation of the above-quoted MBh 12.138.30cd (= MBh 12.140.30cd) contradicts the one of ?nandabodhendra and Bh?skaraka??ha. His would point to a mule instead a hinny, as N?laka??ha uses gardabha-j?. If this reading is correct, he seems to have had a crossbreed between a male donkey (gardabha) and a mare in mind. In this case, he either displays an inaccurate knowledge or shows the same indifference as the dictionaries do to facts of nature, which were perhaps dismissed as insignificant. However, in light of what other Indian authors had had to say on the subject, I have my doubts whether, given the uncritical state of the edition of N?laka??ha?s commentary (I have quoted from Pu?e 1932), variants with gardabh?-j? would not come to light one day. Reading gardabh?-j?, it would match our hinny from above. Here is the line, which in its present editorial state runs as follows:
> a?vatar? gardabhaj? a?v? udarabhedenaiva pras?ta iti prasiddham
> ?An a?vatar? is a mare born from a (male) donkey. It is well known that [this mare] can only give birth [to a foal] by opening her belly.?
>  
> The unsolved question of whether a difference was made between mule and hinny in pre-modern India still needs to be investigated. I trust it was.
> 
> Regards,
> WS
> 
> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 14:41 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje <walter.slaje at gmail.com <mailto:walter.slaje at gmail.com>>:
> Dear Professor Lusthaus,
> 
> from Bh?skaraka??ha?s commentary we can only learn in what way he took a?vatar? (f.) to mean in the given context.
> In the given context, he equals a?vatar? (f.) with a va?av? (f.). Therefore: va?av? (f.) stands for a?vatar?. a?vatar? = va?av? is what he means to say. He uses va?av?, as a va?ava has a somewhat ambiguous nature: ?a male horse resembling a mare [...]? (MW).
> However, he specifies what he actually means, because va?ava used by itself is not sufficiently precise (in the given context):
> kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? = ?born from a female donkey and (male) horse?, in your own words.
> 
> ?So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny?. Right. This is exactly what I was getting at and what Roland Steiner's translation says. 
> 
> Additional information can be extracted from Bh?skaraka??ha. If a female hinny (a?vatar?) gets pregnant, he adds, foaling is not possible without opening the abdomen (tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti).
> 
> I cannot find any translation or interpretation errors here.
> 
> Of course, everyone is free to question and to criticise premodern Indian authors for their observations of nature. However, we should never forget that in the present case we see the unspectacular depiction of an everyday reality, and that the authors were able to observe their environment more closely than we can today. If, what Bh?skaraka??ha had had to say about female hinnies, had been made up, his explanation of the d????nta would have come to nothing. He would have simply made a fool of himself among his contemporaries. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. I for one believe he did not.
> 
> Kind regards,
> WS
> 
> 
> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 13:37 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com <mailto:prajnapti at gmail.com>>:
> On second look, a?va (not asv?), would be a male horse, so kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? would mean born from a female donkey and (male) horse, though I?m not sure what to make of va?av?/va?aba ?a male horse resembling a mare (and therefore attracting the stallion)? (MW).
> 
> So that is an attempt to treat a?vatar? as a hinny. But is that followed consistently in the literature?
> 
> Dan
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2020, at 7:21 AM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Prof. Slaje,
>> 
>> Thank you for those examples. However, as far as I can tell, the idea that a?vatar? is a hinny, rather than a she-mule, seems to be only in Steiner?s interpretation, not in the texts themselves. Bh?skaraka??ha only explains it as a female mule (khara = mule, str? = female animal). Similarly, dvij?t?ya similarly just means a mule, without specifying that the parents must be a male horse and a female donkey rather than the inverse.
>> 
>> Monier-Williams has around 24 terms that can mean a mule, several of which mean a she-mule (e.g., a?vatar?, khar?, etc.), typically by giving a word for mule a feminine form. For instance:
>> 
>> a?vatara b m. (P??. 5-3, 91 ) a mule, AV. iv, 4, 8 ; ?Br.  &c. 	      
>> (compar. of a?va) a better horse, Pat.       
>> a male calf, L. 	      
>> one of the chiefs of the N?gas, MBh. ; Hariv.  &c.	      
>> N. of a Gandharva, L.  	      
>> a?vatar? f. a better mare, Pat.     
>> a?vatar? f. a she-mule, AV. viii, 8, 22 ; MBh. &c.
>> 
>> But a she-mule is not a hinny. A mule has a male donkey and a female horse for parents. A hinny has the opposite: a male horse and a female donkey for parents. Mules and hinnies are physiologically different from each other as well. A hinny can be a male or a female.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> 
>> 
>> The wikipedia entry for ?mule? says the following about their fertility:
>> ==
>> Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome>, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>.
>> 
>> A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[18] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-18>[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> Herodotus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus> gives an account of such an event as an ill omen of Xerxes' invasion of Greece <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece> in 480 BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at Sardis?a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus The Histories <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)> 7:57), and a mule's giving birth was a frequently recorded portent in antiquity, although scientific writers also doubted whether the thing was really possible (see e.g. Aristotle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle>, Historia animalium, 6.24; Varro <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varro>, De re rustica, 2.1.28).
>> 
>> As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules birthing foals since 1527.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19> In China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China> in 2001, a mare mule produced a filly <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filly>.[20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-FertileMule1985-20> In Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco> in early 2002 and Colorado <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado> in 2007, mare mules produced colts.[19] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Kay2002-19>[21] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-Npr2007-07-26-21>[22] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22> Blood and hair samples from the Colorado birth verified that the mother was indeed a mule and the foal was indeed her offspring.[22] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-DenverPost2007-09-19-22>
>> A 1939 article in the Journal of Heredity describes two offspring of a fertile mare mule named "Old Bec", which was owned at the time by Texas A&M University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_A%26M_University> in the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike her mother, she was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited Saddlebred <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Saddlebred> stallion, exhibited no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no characteristics of the donkey.[23] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#cite_note-JHeredity-30-12-23>
>> ==
>> 
>> The wikipedia entry on ?hinny" has the following on fertility:
>> ==
>> Hinnies are difficult to obtain because of the differences in the number of chromosomes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome> of the horse and the donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey>. A donkey has 62 chromosomes, whereas a horse has 64. Hinnies, being hybrids of those two species <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species>, have 63 chromosomes and are in the majority of cases sterile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertile>. The uneven number of chromosomes results in an incomplete reproductive system <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_system>. According to the ADMS: "The equine hybrid is easier to obtain when the lower chromosome count, the donkey, is in the male. Therefore breeding for hinnies is more hit-and-miss than breeding for mules."[2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-LongearLingo-2>
>> The male hinny or mule can and will mate, but the emission is not fertile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility>. Male hinnies and mules <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule> are usually castrated to help control their behavior by eliminating their interest in females.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>]
>> 
>> Female hinnies and mules are not customarily spayed, and may or may not go through estrus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrus>. Female mules have been known, on rare occasions, to produce offspring when mated to a horse or donkey, although this is extremely uncommon. Since 1527, sixty cases of foals born to female mules around the world have been documented.[4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> In contrast, according to the ADMS, there is only one known case of a female hinny doing so.
>> 
>> Namely, in China <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>, in 1981, a hinny mare proved fertile with a donkey sire. When the Chinese hinny was bred to a jack, she produced the so-called "Dragon Foal", which resembled a donkey with mule-like features.[5] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-FertileMule1985-5> In Morocco <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco>, in 2002, a mule mare bred to a donkey sire produced a male foal.[4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny#cite_note-Kay2002-4> DNA testing revealed the foal has a mixed karyotype <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype> hybrid like the Chinese hinny offspring "Dragon Foal".[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>]
>> 
>> Hinnies are rare for many other reasons. Donkey jennies and horse stallions can be choosier about their mates than horse mares and donkey jacks.[citation needed <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>] Thus, the two parties involved may not even care to mate. Even if they do cooperate, donkey jennies are less likely to conceive when bred to a horse stallion than horse mares are when bred to a donkey jack. Breeding <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_breeding> large hinnies is an even bigger challenge, as it requires stock from a jenny of large size, such as the Baudet de Poitou <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudet_de_Poitou> or American Mammoth Donkey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mammoth_Donkey>. Mammoth donkey stock is becoming increasingly rare and has been declared an endangered domestic breed. Fanciers are unlikely to devote a Mammoth jenny's valuable breeding time to producing sterile hinny hybrids, when Mammoth jennies are in high demand to produce fertile purebred Mammoth foals
>> 
>> ==
>> 
>> There is no mention of requiring caesarians.
>> 
>> Some of the mule terms in MW:
>> 
>> dvi?j?t?ya mfn. relating to the twice-born i.e. to the first 3 castes of twofold nature or mixed origin, mongrel. dvi?j?t?ya m. a mule.
>> 
>> m?ka ?the offspring of a mule and mare?
>> 
>> ru??a m. the offspring of a mule and a mare (also means ?maimed, mutilated; a headless body?)
>> 
>> vega?sara m. (cf. vesara) a mule.  	      
>> vega?sar? f. a female mule.
>> 
>> vesara m. (cf. vega-sara; also written ve?ara) a mule.  	      
>> vesar? f. a female mule.
>> 
>> sak?d?garbha m. ?having only one conception?, a mule.
>> 
>> sa?-ka?r??va m. ?mongrel horse?, a mule.
>> 
>> While some refer to female mules, I don?t think any of these terms specifically indicate a hinny, which, again, could be male or female. The Chinese terms clearly differentiate between a mule (? luo, the result of mating a mare with a donkey) and a hinny (?? juxu, result of mating a stallion with a female donkey). I remain curious what the underlying Sanskrit or prakrit term behind juxu might be.
>> 
>> with regards,
>> Dan
>> 
>>> On Nov 22, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > ?A hinny is [...] the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny)." 
>>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>>> 
>>> Cp. Mok?op?ya  I.38.8:
>>> avi?r?ntaman?? ??nyam ?yur ?tatam ?hate |
>>> du?kh?yaiva vim??ho 'ntar garbham a?vatar? yath? ||
>>> 
>>> Bh?skaraka??ha explains it as follows:
>>> "a?vatar?" kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? | tasy? "garbha?" kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti (Mok?op?ya??k? on I.13.8)
>>> 
>>> Cp. the translation by Roland Steiner (Wiesbaden 2014: p.52):
>>> 13.8 Ein innerlich verwirrter [Mensch, dessen] Denken (manas) nicht beruhigt [ist], strebt nach einem leeren, ausgedehnten Leben, [das einem] nichts anderes als Leiden [eintr?gt], wie eine Maul??eselstute[1] <> eine Leibesfrucht [begehrt].
>>> 
>>> [1] <> Eine Maul??eselstute (Vater: Pferdehengst; Mutter: Eselstute) kann nach Bh?skaraka??ha nur mit Kaiserschnitt geb?ren; M? I ad 13.8: a?vatar? kharastriy?m a?v?j j?t? va?av? / tasy? garbha? kuk?ip??ana? vin? na niry?ti.
>>> 
>>> pw offers a series of entries of Sanskrit words for "Maulthier" (= "mule"): 
>>> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on <https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulthier&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on>
>>> 
>>> and gives one entry for "Maulesel" (= "hinny"), namely dvij?t?ya. Schmidt adds "?p?ra?ama":
>>> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on <https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/search?lang=de&utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&m=&t=maulesel&d=&type=&ntype=&cat=&ncat=&c=&v=&merge=on>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Kind regards,
>>> WS
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Am So., 22. Nov. 2020 um 10:48 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
>>> I also found Dhadpale?s idea convincing.
>>> 
>>> As to whether there were ?gama versions, the answer is yes, but not currently available in an Indic language, only in Chinese translation. In addition to the Madhyama-?gama passage I posted, there is a version of the Assal?yana sutta that was translated as an independent text: Fanzhi eboluoyan wen zhong zun jing, ?????????? (Sutra on questions to Buddha about caste from the brahmin Ebulouyan=Assal?yana), translated by ???? Zhu Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk in the late 4th c. Since it expands the discussion a bit, I translate it here. Like the Madhyama-?gama version, it omits the problematic word, unless the word was glossed instead of translated. But it adds an additional equine reproductive set:
>>> 
>>> ?????????????1???????????????????
>>> ???????????????[7]??????????
>>> ?????????????????????????
>>> ?????????
>>> ??????????????
>>> ????????[8]??????????????????????????????????????
>>> ?????????????????(CBETA, T01, no. 71, p. 877, b29-c7)
>>> [7]??????????????[8]???????????????????
>>> 
>>> Ebulouyan said, ?Those of my type (= caste) say that we are better than the other types.?
>>> Buddha replied to Eboluoyan: ?There is an ass father and a horse mother. The horse gives birth to a child. What is it called??
>>> Ebulouyan said: ?It?s called a mule. The father is not designated as a mule, nor is the mother designated as a mule.?
>>> [Buddha asks]: Why then do you designate it as a mule?
>>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a mule, and I follow them in saying it is a mule.?
>>> [Buddha]: ?There is a horse father and an ass mother. The ass gives birth to a child. Would that be called a ?? juxu (English: hinny)? [1] Neither is the father designated as a juxu, nor is the mother designated as a juxu. So how do you know it as a juxu?
>>> [Ebulouyan]: ?The patriarchs who preceded me called it a juxu, so for that reason I follow them in saying it is a juxu.?
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> 1. ?? juxu ?By some accounts a mythical horselike beast; other accounts give it as the offspring of a stallion and female donkey.? (CJKVE-D). In English this is called a hinny. ?A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that is the offspring of a male horse (a stallion) and a female donkey (a jenny). It is the reciprocal cross to the more common mule, which is the product of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). The hinny is distinctive from the mule both in physiology and temperament as a consequence of genomic imprinting.? 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny> 
>>> 
>>> Is there a Skt term for a hinny?
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 21, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Along the lines of Professor Dhadphale's suggestion for vekura?ja as coming from Skt. dvaikulajanya, there are expressions like dvaim?tura, ???m?tura etc. The term dvy?mu?y?ya?a refers to a son with two fathers, one legal and the other biological. The sons born out of the so-called niyoga "levirate" are described with this term.  The term ku??a used in the passage has a meaning of "out of wedlock," but having a dual connection, suggesting something unnatural, illegal.   So dvaikulajanya sounds like a very possible source.  I wonder if there is a northern Sanskrit ?gama version.  I read from earlier messages that the non-Pali versions translated into Chinese show that this term was eliminated from the text, possibly being considered some sort of an error.
>>>> 
>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>>>> 
>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 2:58 PM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>> Dear Artur, Rolf & Dan,
>>>> 
>>>> following a note in my files I see that M.G. Dhadphale has suggested  
>>>> an etymology of the word in question in 1974. Please find the article  
>>>> attached. This may or may not be helpful too.
>>>> 
>>>> With best wishes
>>>> Martin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Martin Straube
>>>> Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography
>>>> Pali Text Society
>>>> 
>>>> Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
>>>> Indologie und Tibetologie
>>>> Deutschhausstrasse 12
>>>> 35032 Marburg
>>>> Germany
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Nov 23 15:42:24 2020
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 15:42:24 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
Message-ID: <57a5bd1170f74828b7e04ed75b2be160@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear List members,

I have not closely followed the discussion of the word vekura?ja. I did see, though, that the discussion has switched to a?vatara. This word is discussed by R;L. Turner, "Type a?vatara in New Indo-Aryan", which has appeared in Pratid?nam. Indian, Iranian and Indo_European Studies Presented to F.B.J. Kuiper. The Hague, 1969, pp. 319-20.

I am afraid, though, this article is helpful in the present discussion about the meaning and derivation of vekura?ja.

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 16:51:29 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 09:51:29 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:

[image: image.png]

Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the
INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member


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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Nov 23 16:56:23 2020
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 16:56:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <162A8000-C53C-43EF-B1A7-A34220DBC821@austin.utexas.edu>

THANK YOU, DOMINIK, AND CONGRATULATIONS. 30 years and still not showing any sign of aging!!

Patrick




On Nov 23, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:



Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<http://indology.info/> committee member
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
This message is from an external sender. Learn more about why this <<
matters at https://links.utexas.edu/rtyclf.                        <<



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From harshadehejia at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 23 17:02:28 2020
From: harshadehejia at hotmail.com (Harsha Dehejia)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 17:02:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <162A8000-C53C-43EF-B1A7-A34220DBC821@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <DM6PR19MB2524C6E181BE81D53F734446A0FC0@DM6PR19MB2524.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Dominik
Thirty not out as we say in cricket.
Harsha
Harsha Dehejia

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 23, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

?
THANK YOU, DOMINIK, AND CONGRATULATIONS. 30 years and still not showing any sign of aging!!

Patrick




On Nov 23, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:



Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<http://indology.info/> committee member
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
This message is from an external sender. Learn more about why this <<
matters at https://links.utexas.edu/rtyclf.                        <<

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 23 17:04:38 2020
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 12:04:38 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4302e750-7651-cfbe-d73f-020c516d2f82@sas.upenn.edu>

And a great and indispensable list it is! Thank you to its leaders and 
also to all its members who consistently respond to requests for 
information and for resource sharing. May Indology keep flourishing!

Rosane

On 11/23/20 11:51 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> image.png
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - 
> flourishing.? INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological 
> lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the 
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum 
> has been equal to and often more important than mine.? Thank you, 
> Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.? And thanks also to past members 
> Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.? 
> Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it 
> is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all 
> and the INDOLOGY forum.? Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From John.Brockington at btinternet.com  Mon Nov 23 17:10:24 2020
From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 17:10:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06471b95-46a1-7d9d-91ff-ad3c0514a3a6@btinternet.com>

Dear Dominik,

Congratulations on your initiative in founding the list, which has been 
such a benefit to all of us.? I am pleased to have been a small part of 
it myself as a past management committee member.

Best wishes to you personally and for the continued success of the list

John

Professor J.L. Brockington
113 Rutten Lane
Yarnton
Kidlington 0X5 1LT
tel: 01865 849438

On 23/11/2020 16:51, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> image.png
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - 
> flourishing.? INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological 
> lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the 
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum 
> has been equal to and often more important than mine.? Thank you, 
> Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.? And thanks also to past members 
> Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.? 
> Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it 
> is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all 
> and the INDOLOGY forum.? Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 17:22:25 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 18:22:25 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoCRrA07qut+eFVYnVkK7jKObBwjP2_KO_R1=5EhPPb_4A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,
Congratulations: not getting older but getting better all the time.
Jan

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 17:52, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
> INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and
> the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Nov 23 17:38:38 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 09:38:38 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeSwnPE7q4CxO7KmKiiG9dnA+-tuwoGum2J-frY=H4EDg@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to you, Dominik, as the founding father of this group.  I will
raise my cup of tea!

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:52 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
> INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and
> the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hhhock at illinois.edu  Mon Nov 23 17:44:49 2020
From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 17:44:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ED6A15EC-A23E-47B7-933D-5AAE79D23CF7@illinois.edu>

Congratulations, Dominik. The list was an excellent idea when you started it, and it continues to be that way.

Here?s to the next thirty years!

All the best,

Hans Henrich


On 23 Nov2020, at 10:51, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:



Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<http://indology.info/> committee member
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Mon Nov 23 17:52:58 2020
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 17:52:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <1606153797.S.84446.autosave.drafts.1606153978.12430@webmail.rediffmail.com>

Dr Dominic Wujastyk,Indeed, a day to rejoice for everybody of us!Wish our Indology Forum a long life!Regards.Alakendu Das&nbsp;

Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 22:22:27 GMT+0530
To: Indology &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY

Dear colleagues, 

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:


Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.&nbsp; INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.&nbsp; 

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often  more important than mine.&nbsp; Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.&nbsp; And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.&nbsp; Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.&nbsp; Here's to another thirty years.

Best,Dominik
Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list committee member

_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)

http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From rpg at berkeley.edu  Mon Nov 23 18:00:55 2020
From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 10:00:55 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzeSwnPE7q4CxO7KmKiiG9dnA+-tuwoGum2J-frY=H4EDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF510BF6-ECF5-4155-8CD7-8D9074046161@berkeley.edu>

Abhinandam, Mubaarak, Mazel Tov and Congratulations Dominik

Like the site, you too, it seems, have not aged a day.

Bob
Dr. R. P.  Goldman
Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540
The University of California at Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
Tel: 510-642-4089
Fax: 510-642-2409

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Many thanks to you, Dominik, as the founding father of this group.  I will raise my cup of tea!
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
> 
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:52 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear colleagues, 
> 
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.  
> 
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
> 
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info/> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From RDavidson at fairfield.edu  Mon Nov 23 18:32:40 2020
From: RDavidson at fairfield.edu (Davidson, Ronald M.)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 18:32:40 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [External]  Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07750164-5D57-417A-845A-A1062000C2E2@fairfield.edu>

Congratulations and infinite gratitude for your work!

Ron

______________________________________________
Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D.
Professor of Religious Studies
Co-director, Digital Humanities Consortium
345 Donnarumma Hall
Fairfield University, 1073 North Benson Road
Fairfield CT 06824-5195, U.S.A.
203-254-4000 x 2489

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Reply-To: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:52 AM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [External] [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:

[image.png]

Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/indology.info__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!Tm_sJAu86y59Et9X7YhIjd_jepc0RY1E0j1YljhtR5Qe8vnD_6G6NwoE2lRiQ-ua0pp5$> committee member




From elisa.freschi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 18:37:25 2020
From: elisa.freschi at gmail.com (Elisa Freschi)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 13:37:25 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <EF510BF6-ECF5-4155-8CD7-8D9074046161@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEYKMafCe0iHwt5q0g-6oyfAW2xB2S+t3AhEfSeEg5zJwsMU=g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,

many thanks for having altruistically dedicated your time and energy to the
benefit of a community of scholars---thirty years ago as well as every
single day thereafter. And thanks also to the current and past members of
the management committee!

Best wishes,

elisa

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 at 13:01, Robert Goldman via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Abhinandam, Mubaarak, Mazel Tov and Congratulations Dominik
>
> Like the site, you too, it seems, have not aged a day.
>
> Bob
> Dr. R. P.  Goldman
> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South
> and Southeast Asian Studies
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540
> The University of California at Berkeley
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540
> Tel: 510-642-4089
> Fax: 510-642-2409
>
> On Nov 23, 2020, at 9:38 AM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Many thanks to you, Dominik, as the founding father of this group.  I will
> raise my cup of tea!
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:52 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think -
>> flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological
>> lives.
>>
>> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
>> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
>> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
>> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
>> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
>> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
>>
>> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and
>> the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
>>
>> Best,
>> Dominik
>>
>>
>> Dominik Wujastyk
>> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info/> committee member
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Dr. Elisa Freschi

Department of Philosophy
University of Toronto
Jackman Humanities Institute,
170 St George Street
ON M5R 2M8 Toronto (Canada)


Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Hollandstra?e 11-13, 2nd floor
1020 Vienna, Austria
Fax ++43 (0)1 51581 6410

http://elisafreschi.com
http://oeaw.academia.edu/elisafreschi
Twitter: @elisa_freschi


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From astol007 at gattamelata.com  Mon Nov 23 18:54:15 2020
From: astol007 at gattamelata.com (Alexander Stolyarov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 21:54:15 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4e07067-3d23-bb45-3e65-5b29e382c180@gattamelata.com>

Dear Dominik,
This was your great undertaking!
Let us live the next 20 years till the 50th anniversary!
Thank you!
Alexander

On 23.11.2020 19:51, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> image.png
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - 
> flourishing.? INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological 
> lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the 
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum 
> has been equal to and often more important than mine.? Thank you, 
> Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.? And thanks also to past members 
> Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.? 
> Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it 
> is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all 
> and the INDOLOGY forum.? Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From s.raman at utoronto.ca  Mon Nov 23 18:55:18 2020
From: s.raman at utoronto.ca (Srilata Raman)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 13:55:18 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <861BD9F7-4560-44EE-95C5-272BFBF95A44@utoronto.ca>

Dear Dominik,
Let me add to the chorus of voices of appreciation. Running a list is a thankless task and fraught with pitfalls! It says much for your perseverance that you have kept this going, providing a platform for many of us to learn much. 
Thank you, 
Srilata

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 11:52 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> ?
> EXTERNAL EMAIL:
> Dear colleagues, 
> 
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.  
> 
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
> 
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 23 18:56:04 2020
From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 13:56:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61F97820-DC7B-40FB-B015-169C07D013CA@yahoo.com>

Congratulations, Dominik, and thank you for all of your excellent efforts! S?dhu! S?dhu! S?dhu!

With warmest regards,
Jeff

Dr. Jeffery D. Long
Professor of Religion and Asian Studies
Elizabethtown College
Elizabethtown, PA
 
https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong
 
Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, Philosophical, and Theological
Lexington Books
 
?One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life.?  (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
 
?We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.? (Carl Sagan)

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear colleagues, 
> 
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.  
> 
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
> 
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info/> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Mon Nov 23 19:23:51 2020
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 20:23:51 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20201123202351.1f2dbad63a7b1a496bad3523@ff.cuni.cz>

?at?m ?n n? ?ar?do ?nti dev?!

Or, even more, as other blessing says: "Until 120 years!" (ad me'a ve-esrim shana)

Thanks, Dominik!



On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:51:29 -0700
Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
> 
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
> 
> [image: image.png]
> 
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
> INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.
> 
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
> 
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the
> INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member





From prajnapti at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 19:58:08 2020
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 14:58:08 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <20201123202351.1f2dbad63a7b1a496bad3523@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <64233651-2AE5-4F05-A71E-2E2A16C2040B@gmail.com>

Thank you, Dominik. The Indology list, in its incarnations, has had a significant impact on our lives for decades. Scholars no longer work alone, awaiting the day when they can visit a library or archive that might solve their accumulated questions by providing otherwise hard to acquire sources. You have provided us with a resource that pools all our resources, improving everyone?s research.
Stay safe and healthy,
Dan




From a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr  Mon Nov 23 20:22:25 2020
From: a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr (a.murugaiyan)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 21:22:25 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3c7760a0-1cc3-fdc1-dfa9-bd45ef72bb57@wanadoo.fr>


Dear Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
Congratulations and thanks to you and to all the members of the 
management committee.
Let me wish our Indology group a long life, ?/candr//?//dityavat?/?as 
long as the moon and the sun last? as it is often mentioned in the Tamil 
inscriptions!
Thanks and best regards.
A. Murugaiyan

Le 23/11/2020 ? 17:51, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY a ?crit?:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> image.png
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - 
> flourishing.? INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological 
> lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the 
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum 
> has been equal to and often more important than mine.? Thank you, 
> Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.? And thanks also to past members 
> Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.? 
> Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it 
> is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all 
> and the INDOLOGY forum.? Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 20:46:11 2020
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 15:46:11 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja?=
In-Reply-To: <57a5bd1170f74828b7e04ed75b2be160@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <E69BEBAF-6827-4D8B-83DA-DE5D524F0F6F@gmail.com>

Dear Herman,
Can you summarize what it says for those of us who are in lockdown without access to the volume at present?
Thank you.
Dan

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear List members,
> I have not closely followed the discussion of the word vekura?ja. I did see, though, that the discussion has switched to a?vatara. This word is discussed by R;L. Turner, "Type a?vatara in New Indo-Aryan", which has appeared in Pratid?nam. Indian, Iranian and Indo_European Studies Presented to F.B.J. Kuiper. The Hague, 1969, pp. 319-20.
> I am afraid, though, this article is helpful in the present discussion about the meaning and derivation of vekura?ja. 
> Herman
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Mon Nov 23 20:46:12 2020
From: kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Agathe Keller)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 20:46:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <3c7760a0-1cc3-fdc1-dfa9-bd45ef72bb57@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <811AE218-E54D-4E9F-8449-B9D9B88D52FE@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Indeed this is a beautiful list were so much insightful sharing is generously made every day! may it last longer then ourselves, and thank you dominik for launching it and making it live and survive and live again in this important way

Agathe Keller

Universit? de  Paris
 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219

Office/Bureau: 628
Batiment Olympe de Gouges
Universit? de Paris
Place Paul Ricoeur
75013 Paris
France

Le 23 nov. 2020 ? 21:22, a.murugaiyan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :


Dear Professor  Dominik Wujastyk,
Congratulations and thanks to you and to all the members of the management committee.
Let me wish our Indology group a long life, ?candr?dityavat? ?as long as the moon and the sun last? as it is often mentioned in the Tamil inscriptions!
Thanks and best regards.
A. Murugaiyan

Le 23/11/2020 ? 17:51, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY a ?crit :
Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:

[image.png]

Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<http://indology.info/> committee member



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Mon Nov 23 20:46:36 2020
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 21:46:36 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7965d820-557e-3707-0722-4739f0bd35c6@uni-muenchen.de>


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From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au  Mon Nov 23 21:26:08 2020
From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 21:26:08 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ME1PR01MB09148AA04BC1F0CBFB2AA413DAFC0@ME1PR01MB0914.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Yes, congratulations Dominik and all the others hwo have made this list so valuable.

Cheers,

Greg Bailey

________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 3:51 AM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:

[image.png]

Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.

I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.

Best,
Dominik


Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<http://indology.info> committee member


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 21:33:11 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 22:33:11 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for an input to the next newsletter of the Indology-list
In-Reply-To: <5BEDA840-B913-4002-8D4D-804E890596D0@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBDvGgndQMFvbS2i8mzbrErNrFUg-eYN6NToPLiO3JfXg@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations on this original achievement. Jan Houben

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 15:30 Beate Guttandin via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> Dear managers of the Indology-list: Would it be possible to add this input
> to the next newsletter?
> Thank you very much, Beate
>
>
> Dear members of the Indology-List,
>
>
>
> here is the announcement of my book with 8 modern Sanskrit-narratives with
> transliteration from devan?gar? and a translation into German with a short
> intro.
>
> https://www.verlagdrkovac.de/978-3-339-11838-7.htm
>
> I am also working on an English translation and would be happy to know
> about publishers in the United States who might be interested.
>
> Colleagues, who might like to give me a comment or some remarks
> concerning this book are very welcome.
>
> If some would like to write a review in some journal, the publisher will
> gladly send a book or an e-book on request.
>
> I?d be very happy to know of those of you who work on modern Sanskrit
> literature so that we might find some possibilities to exchange information
> on that research field.
>
>
>
> With kind regards
>
> Beate Guttandin
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 22:03:47 2020
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 17:03:47 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <ME1PR01MB09148AA04BC1F0CBFB2AA413DAFC0@ME1PR01MB0914.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o9AQOzb7waY680zV0T3wSx3fEwaxXUukL3wb2KuNm7cog@mail.gmail.com>

Not only a superb resource, but it makes studying the subject a  joy. A
great achievement.  Thank you Dominik.
Harry Spier


On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 4:27 PM Greg Bailey via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Yes, congratulations Dominik and all the others hwo have made this list so
> valuable.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Greg Bailey
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 24, 2020 3:51 AM
> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
> INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and
> the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu  Mon Nov 23 22:37:07 2020
From: loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu (Loriliai Biernacki)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 22:37:07 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <7965d820-557e-3707-0722-4739f0bd35c6@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <B7B3B784-F554-40DD-B9BF-C915C3E874BC@colorado.edu>

Yes, congratulations on this stellar achievement and deep thanks!

Loriliai Biernacki
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 23, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Dominik,

I think I have hardly anything more to add than what others have already said here. The list still is a delight, and the Indological world would be a much, much poorer place without it.

RZ


Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote on 23.11.20 17:51:

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list: [?]


--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Department f?r Asienstudien
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Deutschland

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1kPHsRMp-NmIVCPxNgMVoQ2dQL2M3RkujgUxDdCswTZ4mmlACMgqoAJBGubfnPUSg1egr38gxelhq7vnu_CBoss23hoSAL0YLQDTzxJSOw0zwqyWzPAMKR1Ih8axrT8vZj6OTUll8fqF-xuHakhq-W5O6x1HQQqRMwh-uaK7qpQTgosNK3xOHsAR0eMEoKj0zwsBtXmA0l_-zUKfP1AyLUmQ1mghokwQGpOJozUSkFVezDmSLnR9c6JJU8o-qlL2GuUJ6x2Qbg1vNyR6Ae658ci1KSvu2ULbti1csJkg7Sv9B-gXpDufc0Ghk1g322LpWY4F-VSSjdMy-2cI97dqywnUuKo0pvk-Oob9yi2AElJuw1-c7cT9RB6d48HmvbIFU7-ZoxjA_dXcVISliMZQhVND-s8yfwbqAwuOpCED3UVU_mcGPoRpdxg_CyCMQICLWn6HSJZ2aE1P2DbnSDXRVug/http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk  Mon Nov 23 23:05:23 2020
From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 23:05:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <B7B3B784-F554-40DD-B9BF-C915C3E874BC@colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <092AEB88-F9DF-4D51-8348-89B512BB9139@cardiff.ac.uk>

My congratulations too, Dominik, the list has been a major service (and frequent source of stimulation) for all of us.

Geoffrey

On 24 Nov 2020, at 09:37, Loriliai Biernacki via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Yes, congratulations on this stellar achievement and deep thanks!

Loriliai Biernacki
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 23, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Dominik,

I think I have hardly anything more to add than what others have already said here. The list still is a delight, and the Indological world would be a much, much poorer place without it.

RZ


Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote on 23.11.20 17:51:

Dear colleagues,

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list: [?]


--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Department f?r Asienstudien
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Deutschland

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1kPHsRMp-NmIVCPxNgMVoQ2dQL2M3RkujgUxDdCswTZ4mmlACMgqoAJBGubfnPUSg1egr38gxelhq7vnu_CBoss23hoSAL0YLQDTzxJSOw0zwqyWzPAMKR1Ih8axrT8vZj6OTUll8fqF-xuHakhq-W5O6x1HQQqRMwh-uaK7qpQTgosNK3xOHsAR0eMEoKj0zwsBtXmA0l_-zUKfP1AyLUmQ1mghokwQGpOJozUSkFVezDmSLnR9c6JJU8o-qlL2GuUJ6x2Qbg1vNyR6Ae658ci1KSvu2ULbti1csJkg7Sv9B-gXpDufc0Ghk1g322LpWY4F-VSSjdMy-2cI97dqywnUuKo0pvk-Oob9yi2AElJuw1-c7cT9RB6d48HmvbIFU7-ZoxjA_dXcVISliMZQhVND-s8yfwbqAwuOpCED3UVU_mcGPoRpdxg_CyCMQICLWn6HSJZ2aE1P2DbnSDXRVug/http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web.cisco.com%2F1kPHsRMp-NmIVCPxNgMVoQ2dQL2M3RkujgUxDdCswTZ4mmlACMgqoAJBGubfnPUSg1egr38gxelhq7vnu_CBoss23hoSAL0YLQDTzxJSOw0zwqyWzPAMKR1Ih8axrT8vZj6OTUll8fqF-xuHakhq-W5O6x1HQQqRMwh-uaK7qpQTgosNK3xOHsAR0eMEoKj0zwsBtXmA0l_-zUKfP1AyLUmQ1mghokwQGpOJozUSkFVezDmSLnR9c6JJU8o-qlL2GuUJ6x2Qbg1vNyR6Ae658ci1KSvu2ULbti1csJkg7Sv9B-gXpDufc0Ghk1g322LpWY4F-VSSjdMy-2cI97dqywnUuKo0pvk-Oob9yi2AElJuw1-c7cT9RB6d48HmvbIFU7-ZoxjA_dXcVISliMZQhVND-s8yfwbqAwuOpCED3UVU_mcGPoRpdxg_CyCMQICLWn6HSJZ2aE1P2DbnSDXRVug%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Flistinfo.indology.info&data=04%7C01%7CSamuelG%40cardiff.ac.uk%7C3fcc3c5003604eafa52808d890006af8%7Cbdb74b3095684856bdbf06759778fcbc%7C1%7C0%7C637417678750344612%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Nd7SQHNxm%2BbHSHiN4PWDlxpb1vX3Z0v6S2ictDiqfss%3D&reserved=0> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7CSamuelG%40cardiff.ac.uk%7C3fcc3c5003604eafa52808d890006af8%7Cbdb74b3095684856bdbf06759778fcbc%7C1%7C0%7C637417678750364525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=0Fmixj1Rt5z4ugF%2B78Abfz4LFvz%2FKe8LSlmOQXNfljE%3D&amp;reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Mon Nov 23 23:35:32 2020
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 00:35:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <092AEB88-F9DF-4D51-8348-89B512BB9139@cardiff.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbpwtSVGamEmJR1xz5nC4WwWjQKUNRxPKN72KoT3m5YFyw@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations, Dominik! I find the list so useful. And it builds so many
bridges between us.

Joanna

---

Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz

Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies

Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies

Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw

ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28

00-927 Warszawa , Poland

Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages

College of Human Sciences

UNISA

Pretoria, RSA

Member of Academia Europaea

https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


wt., 24 lis 2020 o 00:06 Geoffrey Samuel via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> My congratulations too, Dominik, the list has been a major service (and
> frequent source of stimulation) for all of us.
>
> Geoffrey
>
> On 24 Nov 2020, at 09:37, Loriliai Biernacki via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Yes, congratulations on this stellar achievement and deep thanks!
>
> Loriliai Biernacki
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 23, 2020, at 1:49 PM, Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Dominik,
>
> I think I have hardly anything more to add than what others have already
> said here. The list still is a delight, and the Indological world would be
> a much, much poorer place without it.
>
> RZ
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote on 23.11.20 17:51:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list: [?]
>
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Department f?r Asienstudien
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
> Deutschland
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
>
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1kPHsRMp-NmIVCPxNgMVoQ2dQL2M3RkujgUxDdCswTZ4mmlACMgqoAJBGubfnPUSg1egr38gxelhq7vnu_CBoss23hoSAL0YLQDTzxJSOw0zwqyWzPAMKR1Ih8axrT8vZj6OTUll8fqF-xuHakhq-W5O6x1HQQqRMwh-uaK7qpQTgosNK3xOHsAR0eMEoKj0zwsBtXmA0l_-zUKfP1AyLUmQ1mghokwQGpOJozUSkFVezDmSLnR9c6JJU8o-qlL2GuUJ6x2Qbg1vNyR6Ae658ci1KSvu2ULbti1csJkg7Sv9B-gXpDufc0Ghk1g322LpWY4F-VSSjdMy-2cI97dqywnUuKo0pvk-Oob9yi2AElJuw1-c7cT9RB6d48HmvbIFU7-ZoxjA_dXcVISliMZQhVND-s8yfwbqAwuOpCED3UVU_mcGPoRpdxg_CyCMQICLWn6HSJZ2aE1P2DbnSDXRVug/http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info
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> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
>
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7CSamuelG%40cardiff.ac.uk%7C3fcc3c5003604eafa52808d890006af8%7Cbdb74b3095684856bdbf06759778fcbc%7C1%7C0%7C637417678750364525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=0Fmixj1Rt5z4ugF%2B78Abfz4LFvz%2FKe8LSlmOQXNfljE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From reimann at berkeley.edu  Tue Nov 24 00:04:10 2020
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 16:04:10 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJtckDZMHo89B+65nkz54b4mSiBByHLMe8NB0e7syD8NSwqG8Q@mail.gmail.com>

?Muchas gracias Dominik! ?Salud!

Luis

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:52 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
> INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and
> the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Nov 24 01:44:00 2020
From: palaniappa at aol.com (palaniappa at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 01:44:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHHGc7hroighWRu0g0YwvH0qEpfk9XW7r13zXFeUrvvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2029708428.1057371.1606182240221@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Dominik,
This has been a wonderful forum for building relationships and collaboration and resulted in some important Indological findings.?
Many thanks to you and the members!
Regards,Palaniappan


-----Original Message-----
From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Mon, Nov 23, 2020 10:51 am
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY

Dear colleagues, 

Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:


Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.? INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.? 

On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.? Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.? And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.? Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.? Here's to another thirty years.

Best,Dominik

Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list committee member
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 04:21:06 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 20 21:21:06 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <2029708428.1057371.1606182240221@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cea7jMHAQJMEmjAe9XFqystXQent0MM9++1+aMGqM=i7Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have been very touched today by all your kind words.  Thank you!  The
list is ours and it is as good as we collectively make it.

Warm wishes,
Dominik

Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue Nov 24 10:19:25 2020
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 10:19:25 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
Message-ID: <62b02fad96a54ccca5ee2705572c5c90@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Turner's article is mainly about the type of compound seen in a?va-tara, and, among other forms, mentions vy?ghra-tara, which ended up in Kipling's Jungle Book as Bagheera. As to a?vatara, Turner writes that it is of pre-Indo-Aryan origin. It would be supported directly by Persian astra and indirectly by Khotanese kha?ara "mule", from hypothetical khara-tara (with reference to H.W. Bailey, BSOA 10, 590).
Herman





Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From manufrancis at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 11:14:02 2020
From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 12:14:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cea7jMHAQJMEmjAe9XFqystXQent0MM9++1+aMGqM=i7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANVHsm4OZsvyuancVKgmoBUYLqb2DysCHvobCxoSYWtmMzhCnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,
I add my words too.
Thank you and all board members, past and present, for having made this
list ours!
With very best wishes.

Emmanuel FRANCIS <http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725>
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud
<http://ceias.ehess.fr/> (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
Online CV HAL <https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuel-francis>
DHARMA <https://dharma.hypotheses.org/> Project
<https://dharma.hypotheses.org/> (ERC synergy grant 2018)
TST Project <https://tst.hypotheses.org/> (FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG)
Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India <http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/>
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture
<http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html>


Le mar. 24 nov. 2020 ? 05:22, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :

> I have been very touched today by all your kind words.  Thank you!  The
> list is ours and it is as good as we collectively make it.
>
> Warm wishes,
> Dominik
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi  Tue Nov 24 11:22:31 2020
From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Karttunen, Klaus J)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 11:22:31 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary
Message-ID: <HE1PR0702MB370731D198393A32A323535FEAFB0@HE1PR0702MB3707.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Dominik,
also my congratulations. I was not with from the beginning, but almost 20 years following the list has been almost daily pleasure.

Best,
Klaus


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From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be  Tue Nov 24 11:33:34 2020
From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 12:33:34 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CANVHsm4OZsvyuancVKgmoBUYLqb2DysCHvobCxoSYWtmMzhCnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cf3df86be56fef0e44d84b9ad4b0c493@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>

I want to add my congratulations too for these very interesting 
discussions and resources.
Although, in my opinion, there are not enough questions and answers 
concerning Indian Mathematics and Astronomy.
But this is definitely not a reproach to be addressed to Dominik !

Best wishes,

Jean Michel Delire,
Lecturer in Science and Civilization in India - Sanskrit texts, 
University of Brussels
Professor of Mathematics and History of mathematics, Brussels-Brabant 
College

Le 24.11.2020 12:14, Manu Francis via INDOLOGY a ?crit?:
> Dear Dominik,
> I add my words too.
> Thank you and all board members, past and present, for having made
> this list ours!
> With very best wishes.
> 
> Emmanuel FRANCIS [3]
> Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du
> Sud [4] (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
> 
> Online CV HAL [5]
> DHARMA [6] Project [6] (ERC synergy grant 2018)
> 
> TST Project [7] (FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG)
> 
> Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India [8]
> 
> Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture [9]
> 
> Le?mar. 24 nov. 2020 ??05:22, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit?:
> 
>> I have been very touched today by all your kind words.? Thank
>> you!? The list is ours and it is as good as we collectively make
>> it.
>> 
>> Warm wishes,
>> Dominik
>> 
>> Dominik Wujastyk
>> INDOLOGY list [1] committee member
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list
>> options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://indology.info
> [2] http://listinfo.indology.info
> [3] http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
> [4] http://ceias.ehess.fr/
> [5] https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuel-francis
> [6] https://dharma.hypotheses.org/
> [7] https://tst.hypotheses.org/
> [8] http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
> [9] http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)





From walter.slaje at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 11:45:34 2020
From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 12:45:34 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <62b02fad96a54ccca5ee2705572c5c90@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nVJmQpYo_JCTMH4pyqwV0gJtkZgcnVd3DXPdXM7x_cojQ@mail.gmail.com>

There is an essay by Wilhelm Rau, which I have briefly skimmed over:

*A note on the donkey and the mule in early Vedic literature*. *Adyar
Library Bulletin* 44-45 (1980-1981): 179?189 [= Kl. Schr. II 987?997].



As its title suggests, it deals only with donkeys and mules in Vedic
literature.

However, and this seems important and somehow enlightening to me, any
crossbreeding product different from the mule is not mentioned anywhere in
this paper. Also conceptually, the hinny is entirely missing. For Rau, ?the
mule [(*a?vatara*/?*?*) ...] is the offspring of a donkey and a mare? (p.
994 in his Kl. Schr.).



This is certainly not wrong, and Rau rightly refers to Rudradatta?s
commentary on *?pastamba?rautas?tra* 13.5.3 (*gardabh?d va?av?y?? j?to
??vara?*) to substantiate his claim. Incidentally, it would also confirm
N?laka??ha?s previously cited comment.



I just chanced upon an interesting passage, which suggests that in India,
too, at least in early modern times, there seemed to be no agreement about
what was mule and what was hinny. Thus Jagann?tha quotes the following two
opposing views in his *D?pik?* on Madhva?s *Brahmas?trabh??ya* (1,3.9.5):



"*gardabh?d a?v?y?? j?t? a?vatarya?*" *iti* *tattvaprad?pe* [would be
?mule?]

"*gardabh??u a?vair j?t? a?vatarya?*" *iti vy?sat?rth?ye* [would be ?hinny?]



Unfortunately and for obvious reasons, I cannot verify the quoted passage
in any printed edition, but the quote does offer quite a revealing view
with regard to conceptual uncertainties as they seem to have prevailed.



Another essay on this topic, which is also not accessible to me, is:

Gildemeister, Johannes: *A?vatar?*. *Orient und Occident, insbesondere in
ihren gegenseitigen Beziehungen *2 (1864): 172?174.



Kind regards,

WS









Am Di., 24. Nov. 2020 um 11:22 Uhr schrieb Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Turner's article is mainly about the type of compound seen in a?va-tara,
> and, among other forms, mentions vy?ghra-tara, which ended up in Kipling's
> Jungle Book as Bagheera. As to a?vatara, Turner writes that it is of
> pre-Indo-Aryan origin. It would be supported directly by Persian astra and
> indirectly by Khotanese kha?ara "mule", from hypothetical khara-tara
> (with reference to H.W. Bailey, BSOA 10, 590).
> Herman
>
>
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From yogacara at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 12:20:16 2020
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 07:20:16 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nVJmQpYo_JCTMH4pyqwV0gJtkZgcnVd3DXPdXM7x_cojQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17051C84-D8E9-44F9-89C9-48F5B22370BB@gmail.com>

Thank you for this additional information. My own initial search for hinnies yielded similar impressions, which is why I was surprised to see hinnies explicitly mentioned in the 4th c. Chinese translation of the sutta. As we suspected, the terminology was fluid, not fixed.
best wishes,
Dan

> On Nov 24, 2020, at 6:45 AM, Walter Slaje <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There is an essay by Wilhelm Rau, which I have briefly skimmed over:
> A note on the donkey and the mule in early Vedic literature. Adyar Library Bulletin 44-45 (1980-1981): 179?189 [= Kl. Schr. II 987?997].
>  
> As its title suggests, it deals only with donkeys and mules in Vedic literature.
> However, and this seems important and somehow enlightening to me, any crossbreeding product different from the mule is not mentioned anywhere in this paper. Also conceptually, the hinny is entirely missing. For Rau, ?the mule [(a?vatara/??) ...] is the offspring of a donkey and a mare? (p. 994 in his Kl. Schr.).
>  
> This is certainly not wrong, and Rau rightly refers to Rudradatta?s commentary on ?pastamba?rautas?tra 13.5.3 (gardabh?d va?av?y?? j?to ??vara?) to substantiate his claim. Incidentally, it would also confirm N?laka??ha?s previously cited comment.
>  
> I just chanced upon an interesting passage, which suggests that in India, too, at least in early modern times, there seemed to be no agreement about what was mule and what was hinny. Thus Jagann?tha quotes the following two opposing views in his D?pik? on Madhva?s Brahmas?trabh??ya (1,3.9.5):
>  
> "gardabh?d a?v?y?? j?t? a?vatarya?" iti tattvaprad?pe [would be ?mule?]
> "gardabh??u a?vair j?t? a?vatarya?" iti vy?sat?rth?ye [would be ?hinny?]
>  
> Unfortunately and for obvious reasons, I cannot verify the quoted passage in any printed edition, but the quote does offer quite a revealing view with regard to conceptual uncertainties as they seem to have prevailed.
>  
> Another essay on this topic, which is also not accessible to me, is:
> Gildemeister, Johannes: A?vatar?. Orient und Occident, insbesondere in ihren gegenseitigen Beziehungen 2 (1864): 172?174.
>  
> Kind regards,
> WS
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Am Di., 24. Nov. 2020 um 11:22 Uhr schrieb Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
> Turner's article is mainly about the type of compound seen in a?va-tara, and, among other forms, mentions vy?ghra-tara, which ended up in Kipling's Jungle Book as Bagheera. As to a?vatara, Turner writes that it is of pre-Indo-Aryan origin. It would be supported directly by Persian astra and indirectly by Khotanese kha?ara "mule", from hypothetical khara-tara (with reference to H.W. Bailey, BSOA 10, 590).
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 16:18:20 2020
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 21:48:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <cf3df86be56fef0e44d84b9ad4b0c493@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <CAKdrZG2Q2+y4WD1BTY+NzvzJ5p=gQYgmS+o1qu7A2M+G+nP2FA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Wujastyk
Hearty congratulations for your achieving great success in organising this
????????? in the form of Indology List.Also thankful to you for giving me
pleasure of Shastraic discussions with scholar colleagues.This activity
reveals the view of the statement as under:
???????????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????????
Kindest regards
Girish K. Jha
Retd University Professor
Dept of Sanskrit
Patna University
Current Residence: Kolkata
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, 17:04 jmdelire via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I want to add my congratulations too for these very interesting
> discussions and resources.
> Although, in my opinion, there are not enough questions and answers
> concerning Indian Mathematics and Astronomy.
> But this is definitely not a reproach to be addressed to Dominik !
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jean Michel Delire,
> Lecturer in Science and Civilization in India - Sanskrit texts,
> University of Brussels
> Professor of Mathematics and History of mathematics, Brussels-Brabant
> College
>
> Le 24.11.2020 12:14, Manu Francis via INDOLOGY a ?crit :
> > Dear Dominik,
> > I add my words too.
> > Thank you and all board members, past and present, for having made
> > this list ours!
> > With very best wishes.
> >
> > Emmanuel FRANCIS [3]
> > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du
> > Sud [4] (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
> >
> > Online CV HAL [5]
> > DHARMA [6] Project [6] (ERC synergy grant 2018)
> >
> > TST Project [7] (FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG)
> >
> > Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India [8]
> >
> > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture [9]
> >
> > Le mar. 24 nov. 2020 ? 05:22, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> >
> >> I have been very touched today by all your kind words.  Thank
> >> you!  The list is ours and it is as good as we collectively make
> >> it.
> >>
> >> Warm wishes,
> >> Dominik
> >>
> >> Dominik Wujastyk
> >> INDOLOGY list [1] committee member
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> >> committee)
> >> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list
> >> options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] http://indology.info
> > [2] http://listinfo.indology.info
> > [3] http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
> > [4] http://ceias.ehess.fr/
> > [5] https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuel-francis
> > [6] https://dharma.hypotheses.org/
> > [7] https://tst.hypotheses.org/
> > [8] http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
> > [9] http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> > committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> > or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 16:54:44 2020
From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 17:54:44 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] A PhD thesis request
In-Reply-To: <mailman.30.1606150802.12531.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <CALPiqitBAVV4h4_afG7K10CL-34UOVi4XFZYNuMrwaLPU4GqUg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List members,

I am looking for an electronic copy of:
John C. Powers ?The Ultimate (don dam pa, param?rtha) in the S?tra
Explaining the Thought (Sa?dhinirmocana-s?tra): Study, Translation, and
Notes? (vols. 1-2), doctoral dissertation, University of Virginia (1991).

I wonder if anyone might have it and would be willing to share it with me?

I have access to later Powers' works on the *Sa?dhinirmocana*, but I
require that more academic version of the translation.

Kind regards,
Gleb Sharygin

PhD Candidate
LMU M?nchen


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From ph2046 at columbia.edu  Tue Nov 24 17:37:57 2020
From: ph2046 at columbia.edu (Paul Hackett)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 12:37:57 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] A PhD thesis request
In-Reply-To: <CALPiqitBAVV4h4_afG7K10CL-34UOVi4XFZYNuMrwaLPU4GqUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69E83086-6503-423C-A527-DF588B7D0381@columbia.edu>

Dear Gleb,

   It?s available from ProQuest/Dissertation Abstracts, publication # 9221104.

Regards,

Paul Hackett


> On Nov 24, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Gleb Sharygin via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear List members, 
> 
> I am looking for an electronic copy of: 
> John C. Powers ?The Ultimate (don dam pa, param?rtha) in the S?tra Explaining the Thought (Sa?dhinirmocana-s?tra): Study, Translation, and Notes? (vols. 1-2), doctoral dissertation, University of Virginia (1991).
> 
> I wonder if anyone might have it and would be willing to share it with me?
> 
> I have access to later Powers' works on the Sa?dhinirmocana, but I require that more academic version of the translation.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Gleb Sharygin
> 
> PhD Candidate
> LMU M?nchen
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From walter.slaje at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 18:07:20 2020
From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 19:07:20 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <17051C84-D8E9-44F9-89C9-48F5B22370BB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nVBiBH8kBWwst82SwB6NfK5QboTv+gjpZNFJXrkaxbJnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Owing to the kindness of a number of well-intentioned colleagues (Lubomir
Ondracka, Peter Wyzlic, David Smith, Christophe Vielle and an old
acquaintance who wishes to remain anonymous) it is my pleasure to pass on
the information they have provided me with on the two titles I had been
unable to trace while writing my earlier mail:

A PDF of Jagann?tha T?rtha's D?pik? on Madhva's BS?Bh??ya is available from
GRETIL:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil_elib/BBs900__Badarayana_Brahmasutra_COMM_Madhva-Bhasya_Jagannatha-Dipika.pdf
The quoted passage will be found on p. 319 of this edition.

Gildemeisters article on a?vatar? can be downloaded from various
respositories:
http://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/6469073/ft/bsb10614876?page=180
googlebooks.co.uk
https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_YJsFAAAAQAAJ/page/n177/mode/2up
https://books.google.com/books?id=-FgpAAAAYAAJ
https://books.google.be/books?id=yjIwAAAAYAAJ

Kindly regarding,
WS


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Tue Nov 24 20:19:42 2020
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 21:19:42 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nVBiBH8kBWwst82SwB6NfK5QboTv+gjpZNFJXrkaxbJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20201124211942.Horde.Jj0uVSwHQLVD0LtTw5wM3Q5@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>


By chance I came across a further interesting text passage:

ta? tv?m aya?as? sp???a? na br?y?? yadi sa?jaya
khar?v?tsalyam ?hus tan ni?s?marthyam ahetukam (5.133.6 Mah?bh?rata crit. ed.)

The dictionaries give the following meaning of khar?v?tsalya with  
reference to exactly this passage:

pw s.v. khar?v?tsalya "m. die Mutterliebe einer Mauleselin (die nie  
Junge hat), so v.a. eine ?belangebrachte M[utterliebe], eine  
M[utterliebe] f?r Nichts und wieder Nichts" ["Mauleselin" = female  
hinny"!]

MW s.v. khar??v?tsalya "n. ?maternal love of a she-mule?, motherliness  
not wanted"

Apte s.v. khar??v?tsalyam: "motherliness not wanted".

Kind regards,
Roland Steiner






From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Tue Nov 24 22:55:52 2020
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 22:55:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <1606153797.S.84446.autosave.drafts.1606153978.12430@webmail.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F12DCE7-EAD8-4E11-8E2E-8734DEB57DF5@btinternet.com>

Dear Dominik

I would like to add my congratulations too - and my thanks to the colleagues on it who are always ready to help with the knottiest of indological queries. I don?t know what I would do without you all!

With very best wishes

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK



> On 23 Nov 2020, at 17:52, alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dr Dominic Wujastyk,
> Indeed, a day to rejoice for everybody of us!
> Wish our Indology Forum a long life!
> Regards.
> Alakendu Das 
> 
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 22:22:27 GMT+0530
> To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
> 
> Dear colleagues, 
> 
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.  INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.  
> 
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh, Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary, John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
> 
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info==/> committee member
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info==/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 23:05:40 2020
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 18:05:40 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o_T9bHzECpw_WpzU0mTkqQOXnOx+6QuGidG+VAJx6HyTg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
I'm sharing this with the list since so many members also use
Academia.edu.

A while back I had an email exchange with a list member and the same day I
received an email from Academia.edu highlighting a paper by the list member
I'd just been emailing.  Today I received an email from a colleague not a
member of Academia.edu. That email discussed a particular hymn and had the
hymns name in the email title.  Within 15 minutes of receiving that email,
I received an email from Academia.edu highlighting an article about the
hymn I'd just been emailed about.

I use Gmail.  I think this means that if you are a Academia.edu member and
also a gmail user, then  Academia.edu knows who and when you email someone
or someone emails you, the title of the email and possibly the contents of
the email.

As far as I can see looking at the Gmail privacy, Gmail doesn't say they
don't share email contents and I think  to join Academia.edu you have to
give them access to your contents list.

I've removed Academia.edu from access to my contacts list and hopefully
this will solve the problem.

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From yogacara at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 00:00:51 2020
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 19:00:51 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <20201124211942.Horde.Jj0uVSwHQLVD0LtTw5wM3Q5@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <BA71D452-0B68-4164-A683-6BA1E1FD8D5B@gmail.com>

Vielen dank, profs. Steiner and Slaje, for these materials. Please correct me if I am wrong, but my impression (and some reference works) treat Mauleselin as applying to she-mule as well as she-hinny, being a female form of Maulesel (m. male or hinny). While hinnies have more difficulty than mules producing offspring, that expression applied to a mule/hinny who has no offspring would lean toward implying a hinny, but she-mules can also have difficulty conceiving, so the term itself fails to distinguish between them. Is that right? That would seem to mirror some of what we have been finding in the older Sanskrit literature (and the dictionaries).

That still makes the 4th c Chinese translation puzzling, since it clearly expresses a difference in nomenclature. I might add that the term it uses for hinny, ?? juxu, was not a neologism invented by the translator, but a term used at least as early as the Han (and thus pre-Buddhist entry to China) for an unusual beast, mentioned in the Huainanzi (completed before 139 BCE), in an anecdote in bk. 12, section 9 or 10 (depending on edition) (in the complete Eng. tr. by John Major, et al., the passage appears on p. 447). The full name of the juxu is ???? Qiongqiong juxu, which the Major, et al. tr. renders as ?fabulous-big-and-small? (I am mystified by that translation, but assume they had their reasons). Qiong usually means a grasshopper or cricket, or it can mean ?anxious? in usual usage, but see below for a more illuminating definition.

Le Grand Ricci Online has the following under ? ju:
?1. Hybride d?un cheval et d?une mule ou (peut-?tre) bardot.
2. (Myth.) Sp?cial. ds ?? j? x? Sorte de cheval sauvage, qui vit toujours en compagnie de la gerboise.?

Since ?bardot? means an animal born from the coupling of a horse and an ass, does this specify a hinny as opposed to a mule, as suggested by the distinction in the definition? A gerboise is a N. African rodent with short front legs and long hind legs, which fits the description of the ? jue, the animal in the Huainanzi story about the Qiongqiong juxu (Major, et al. aptly translate jue as the ?stumbler?: HNZ says it is like a mouse in front and a rabbit behind, and has trouble walking quickly. The Huainanzi story say that the jue feeds the Qiongqiong xuju sweet grass, so when in trouble, the latter carries it away on its back. (The moral of the story is that rulers need to rely on their ministers in difficult times so they should treat them well during good times).

A Student?s Dictionary of Classical and Medieval Chinese Online (Chinese ? English) has:

 ? (j?)
?MC gjoX [that is, the reconstructed Middle Chinese pronunciation-DL]
    offspring of a molly (female mule) and a stallion (male horse).
    (bn.) ?? j?x? (MC gjoX-xjo), usu. ???? qi?ngqi?ngj?x?, ? ? qi?ng.?

Under qiong it has this interesting tidbit:

"qi?ng
MC gjowng
    locust.
    rdup., Xiongnu name of the wild ass, chigetai; also, fabulous quadruped (usu. ???? qi?ngqi?ngj?x?) said to be swift-running but unable to procure its own food, often paired with ? ju? whose characteristics are just the opposite, hence they need each other; another explanation says the qi?ngqi?ng and j?x? are 2 animals, one having long forelegs and short hind-legs, the other just the opposite, so one cannot go anywhere without the other; also, sad and sorrowing, hapless and heavy-hearted.?

So, it would seem the translation of the sutra by Zhu Tanwulan (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk, drew on an understanding of ju adopted from the ?barbarian? Xiongnu tribes of the eastern Steppes for a wild donkey. The story being referenced is the one in the Huainanzi, and the alternate interpretation would indicate that competing understandings of how to interpret the HNZ passage arose. Both terms in the compound juxu contain the horse radical ?, indicating they denote something related to equines.

Still unclear if this brings us closer to an underlying Sanskrit (or prakrit) term exclusively used for hinnies, but it does indicate that some ancient groups did use nomenclature that distinguished mules from hinnies.

I will finally add that the compound juxu appears some other Chinese translations of Buddhist texts. Juxu is used in the Sa?yukta-?gama ?? SA 1064 (T.2.276b20), for which the two corresponding Pali texts, Devadatta Sutta (AN 4.68 / AN ii 73) and Acirapakkanta Sutta (SN 17.35 / SN ii 241) have assatar? (female mule) in the parallel position (seyyath?pi, bhikkhave, assatar? attavadh?ya gabbha? ga?h?ti, par?bhav?ya gabbha? ga?h?ti). The Pa?carathasata Sutta (SN 17.36 / SN ii 242) which somewhat parallels them, replaces reference to a mule with a wild dog (ca??assa kukkurassa)(seyyath?pi, bhikkhave, ca??assa kukkurassa n?s?ya pitta? bhindeyyu?? ?Just as a wild dog becomes even wilder when they sprinkle bile over its nose?? Bhikkhu Bodhi?s translation).

With appreciation,
Dan
.
> On Nov 24, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> die Mutterliebe einer Mauleselin (die nie Junge hat), so v.a. eine ?belangebrachte M[utterliebe], eine M[utterliebe] f?r Nichts und wieder Nichts



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From tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de  Wed Nov 25 00:03:34 2020
From: tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de (tatiana.oranskaia)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 01:03:34 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <20201125010334.Horde.XQRFcFFWDNhNn-JrnuBIcbR@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de>

Dear Dominik, the spiritus rector of the forum,
Dear members and ex-members of the management committee,

Congratulations and deep heartfelt thanks to you all for arranging  
professional
space which inspires thoughts, research, and emotions.
Congratulations also to all members.
Long live INDOLOGY at LIST!

Tatiana

Zitat von Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Thirty years ago today I launched the INDOLOGY list:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Today, we have over 800 members and the forum is - I think - flourishing.
> INDOLOGY has found an enduring place in our indological lives.
>
> On a personal note, I wish to express my thanks to the members of the
> INDOLOGY management committee, whose role in maintaining this forum has
> been equal to and often more important than mine.  Thank you, Adheesh,
> Philipp, Stefan and Wendy.  And thanks also to past members Audrey, Gary,
> John, Harunaga, Madhav, Christian, Birgit and Jan.  Without all your
> guidance and daily work, INDOLOGY wouldn't be what it is today.
>
> I will be raising a glass of champagne later today to toast you all and the
> INDOLOGY forum.  Here's to another thirty years.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
> INDOLOGY list <http://indology.info> committee member

-- 
Prof. Dr. Tatiana Oranskaia
Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets
Asien-Afrika-Institut
Universit?t Hamburg
Alsterterrasse 1, 1. OG re.
20354 Hamburg

Tel.: 040 428 38 3385 (GZ)
Fax: 040 42838 6944
tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de







From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 02:46:10 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 19:46:10 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <CAJ3b0o_T9bHzECpw_WpzU0mTkqQOXnOx+6QuGidG+VAJx6HyTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce-WrAVx7f5ySJwvAgzLwWfub=+tkf3bUw-E38TSP_BJw@mail.gmail.com>

This is worrying.  I've been getting Academia.edu "push" suggestions too,
but I haven't connected them with my emails.

Gmail emails are encrypted by default, end-to-end.  TLS encryption (as long
as the recipient has TLS too).  So Academia.edu can't see them.

Google searches are public (see the fascinating Seth
Stephens-Davidowitz, *Everybody
Lies*), but not *who* did the searching afaik.

It's hard to know how this is happening, but it is a bit creepy.  I'll ask
the Academia.edu people.

Best,
Dominik

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
> I'm sharing this with the list since so many members also use
> Academia.edu.
>
> A while back I had an email exchange with a list member and the same day I
> received an email from Academia.edu highlighting a paper by the list member
> I'd just been emailing.  Today I received an email from a colleague not a
> member of Academia.edu. That email discussed a particular hymn and had the
> hymns name in the email title.  Within 15 minutes of receiving that email,
> I received an email from Academia.edu highlighting an article about the
> hymn I'd just been emailed about.
>
> I use Gmail.  I think this means that if you are a Academia.edu member and
> also a gmail user, then  Academia.edu knows who and when you email someone
> or someone emails you, the title of the email and possibly the contents of
> the email.
>
> As far as I can see looking at the Gmail privacy, Gmail doesn't say they
> don't share email contents and I think  to join Academia.edu you have to
> give them access to your contents list.
>
> I've removed Academia.edu from access to my contacts list and hopefully
> this will solve the problem.
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca  Wed Nov 25 02:51:00 2020
From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan S. Gillon, Prof.)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 02:51:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ce-WrAVx7f5ySJwvAgzLwWfub=+tkf3bUw-E38TSP_BJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YQBPR0101MB177919D69668A2B92F39940B87FA0@YQBPR0101MB1779.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

I had a similar problem with academia.edu. I have made two attempts to unsubscribe.

Brendan S. Gillon                            email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
Department of Linguistics
McGill University                             tel.:  001 514 398 4868
1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
Montreal, Quebec                           fax.:  001 514 398 7088
H3A 1A7  CANADA

webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: November 24, 2020 9:46 PM
To: Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues

This is worrying.  I've been getting Academia.edu "push" suggestions too, but I haven't connected them with my emails.

Gmail emails are encrypted by default, end-to-end.  TLS encryption (as long as the recipient has TLS too).  So Academia.edu can't see them.

Google searches are public (see the fascinating Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, Everybody Lies), but not who did the searching afaik.

It's hard to know how this is happening, but it is a bit creepy.  I'll ask the Academia.edu people.

Best,
Dominik

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear list members,
I'm sharing this with the list since so many members also use Academia.edu.

A while back I had an email exchange with a list member and the same day I received an email from Academia.edu highlighting a paper by the list member I'd just been emailing.  Today I received an email from a colleague not a member of Academia.edu. That email discussed a particular hymn and had the hymns name in the email title.  Within 15 minutes of receiving that email,  I received an email from Academia.edu highlighting an article about the hymn I'd just been emailed about.

I use Gmail.  I think this means that if you are a Academia.edu member and also a gmail user, then  Academia.edu knows who and when you email someone or someone emails you, the title of the email and possibly the contents of the email.

As far as I can see looking at the Gmail privacy, Gmail doesn't say they don't share email contents and I think  to join Academia.edu you have to give them access to your contents list.

I've removed Academia.edu from access to my contacts list and hopefully this will solve the problem.

Thanks,
Harry Spier
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 02:55:03 2020
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 21:55:03 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ce-WrAVx7f5ySJwvAgzLwWfub=+tkf3bUw-E38TSP_BJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o_u9YPKfU-ZGjX4r4WJrFs6aycoWaJ3R9BHNVty36uyBA@mail.gmail.com>

What I found most disturbing on going thru gmail's privacy policy was that
it said:
We also collect the content you create, upload, or receive from others when
using our services. This includes things like email you write and receive,
photos and videos you save, docs and spreadsheets you create, and comments
you make on YouTube videos.

But I couldn't find any statement that they don't sell this content.

Harry Spier


On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:46 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is worrying.  I've been getting Academia.edu "push" suggestions too,
> but I haven't connected them with my emails.
>
> Gmail emails are encrypted by default, end-to-end.  TLS encryption (as
> long as the recipient has TLS too).  So Academia.edu can't see them.
>
> Google searches are public (see the fascinating Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, *Everybody
> Lies*), but not *who* did the searching afaik.
>
> It's hard to know how this is happening, but it is a bit creepy.  I'll ask
> the Academia.edu people.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>> I'm sharing this with the list since so many members also use
>> Academia.edu.
>>
>> A while back I had an email exchange with a list member and the same day
>> I received an email from Academia.edu highlighting a paper by the list
>> member I'd just been emailing.  Today I received an email from a colleague
>> not a member of Academia.edu. That email discussed a particular hymn and
>> had the hymns name in the email title.  Within 15 minutes of receiving that
>> email,  I received an email from Academia.edu highlighting an article about
>> the hymn I'd just been emailed about.
>>
>> I use Gmail.  I think this means that if you are a Academia.edu member
>> and also a gmail user, then  Academia.edu knows who and when you email
>> someone or someone emails you, the title of the email and possibly the
>> contents of the email.
>>
>> As far as I can see looking at the Gmail privacy, Gmail doesn't say they
>> don't share email contents and I think  to join Academia.edu you have to
>> give them access to your contents list.
>>
>> I've removed Academia.edu from access to my contacts list and hopefully
>> this will solve the problem.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Harry Spier
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 03:03:34 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 20:03:34 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <20201125010334.Horde.XQRFcFFWDNhNn-JrnuBIcbR@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ceoudi-Oq0z1pxwX4r=nRB5-3TRqpQ9LNYQ8OMKvJJ7dg@mail.gmail.com>

I've had my champagne :-)   A very nice, dry Italian prosecco.

Reflecting on INDOLOGY, one remarkable feature of the list is that it's
still using pretty old-fashioned software.  The forum started with ?ric
Thomas's LISTSERV, released in 1986 and run for us by Liverpool
University.  But we now use Mailman, which was written by John Viega and
others and released in 1999, and currently maintained by Abhilash Raj
<https://asynchronous.in/about/>.  As we all know, it's just email bouncing
about.  There are more sophisticated systems available: bulletin boards,
Google groups, etc.  But last time we asked the INDOLOGY membership if they
would like one of these new systems, there was an overwhelming opinion
against change.  And for me, part of the charm of INDOLOGY is this unfussy,
low-tech aspect.  It leaves us free to think about Indology.

Best,
Dominik


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 03:13:55 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 20:13:55 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <CAJ3b0o_u9YPKfU-ZGjX4r4WJrFs6aycoWaJ3R9BHNVty36uyBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd=d9uezAfGRVN1=CgmMepNtJh5HyHzOEePVz_GiYrZ0g@mail.gmail.com>

I just read that same page <https://policies.google.com/privacy?hl=en>,
Harry.  I think what they are saying in the passage you cite is that they
store our emails (etc.).  Which of course they do.  I have millions of
emails, going back decades, and they're all in Google's cloud, not on my
laptop.

But the same page seems very clear (to me) that they do not share any
actual content with anyone, without our explicit permission.

Best,
Dominik


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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 03:25:42 2020
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 22:25:42 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cd=d9uezAfGRVN1=CgmMepNtJh5HyHzOEePVz_GiYrZ0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o-Z8RuCrjeJ6eCZaRzsj-BHUWx8f+sO+ZOFP19z-MXjMw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Dominik.  On rereading the gmail policy page I see they do
say " We?ll
ask for your consent before using your information for a purpose that isn?t
covered in this Privacy Policy. "   In which case I don't know how this is
happening.
Harry Spier


On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:14 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I just read that same page <https://policies.google.com/privacy?hl=en>,
> Harry.  I think what they are saying in the passage you cite is that they
> store our emails (etc.).  Which of course they do.  I have millions of
> emails, going back decades, and they're all in Google's cloud, not on my
> laptop.
>
> But the same page seems very clear (to me) that they do not share any
> actual content with anyone, without our explicit permission.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 03:44:21 2020
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 20 20:44:21 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academia.edu and privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <CAJ3b0o-Z8RuCrjeJ6eCZaRzsj-BHUWx8f+sO+ZOFP19z-MXjMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfNnoGzZDUQ9YpW3hTr+_-1N8h+8iLmYWxdFkrLpxXLOA@mail.gmail.com>

I've discovered that the puzzlingly appropriate recommendations I've
received are being sent not from the domain academia.edu but from
academia-mail.com.  But I think it is still the same outfit, so not
phishing.  I've written to ask them what's going on.   Looking at
their notification
system <https://www.academia.edu/settings#email-notifications> I'm
wondering if it's that, somehow working much better than one would
imagine.  But that doesn't explain your examples.


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Wed Nov 25 04:52:55 2020
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 04:52:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <1606273473.S.8751.25489.f4-234-189.1606279975.22116@webmail.rediffmail.com>

Dr.Wujastyk,
Absolutely true.It is often said-" "Simplicity is the Ultimate Aristocracy"Regards.Alakendu Das&nbsp;

Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 08:34:33 GMT+0530
To: Indology &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY

I've had my champagne :-)&nbsp;&nbsp; A very nice, dry Italian prosecco.
Reflecting on INDOLOGY, one remarkable feature of the list is that it's still using pretty old-fashioned software.&nbsp; The forum started with ?ric Thomas's LISTSERV, released in 1986 and run for us by Liverpool University.&nbsp; But we now use Mailman, which was written by John Viega and others and released in 1999, and currently maintained by Abhilash Raj.&nbsp; As we all know, it's just email bouncing about.&nbsp; There are more sophisticated systems available: bulletin boards, Google groups, etc.&nbsp; But last time we asked the INDOLOGY membership if they would like one of these new systems, there was an overwhelming opinion against change.&nbsp; And for me, part of the charm of INDOLOGY is this unfussy, low-tech aspect.&nbsp; It leaves us free to think about Indology.
Best,Dominik

_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)

http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From walter.slaje at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 08:45:33 2020
From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 09:45:33 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <BA71D452-0B68-4164-A683-6BA1E1FD8D5B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUQzHb-skea2iS5VP7d-QMS-tUjXSA7Qn357Z70RLxCog@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for these illuminating remarks.



> Please correct me if I am wrong, but my impression (and some reference
works) treat Mauleselin as applying to she-mule as well as she-hinny, being
a female form of Maulesel (m. male or hinny).



As far as I can see, in the field of zoology, natural sciences, and in any
case among the agricultural classes, a precise distinction has always been
made between mule and hinny.

This applies without exception to the standard encyclopaedias of the 19th
century (examples will follow shortly) as well as to modern scientific
research literature.

In contrast, it can be assumed that the difference was not so sharply seen
or even blurred among the representatives of the humanities, as the many
examples show we have already witnessed among - in our case - mostly
Indologists (however not without notable exceptions).



In modern standard German, too, a ?Maulesel? ? unless it designates its
species ? is a male hinny, a ?Mauleselin? a female hinny.

Compared with this, a ?Maultier? is a male mule (at the same time the
species as such), a ?Maultierweibchen? a female mule.



Here is an excerpt from a classic among scientific encyclopaedias :



Maultier (Equus mulus)

Maulesel (Equus hinnus)



?Gerade bei den durch Esel beschlagenen Pferdestuten oder umgekehrt bei den
durch Pferde belegten Eselinnen kommen Fehlgeburten am h?ufigsten vor.?

[?] Noch in der neuesten Zeit ist wiederholt behauptet worden, dass
Maultier oder Maulesel unfruchtbar seien. Dies ist jedoch nicht immer der
Fall. Schon seit den ?ltesten Zeiten sind Beispiele bekannt, dass die
Blendlinge zwischen Esel und Pferd wiederum Junge erzeugten; weil man aber
solch ein ungew?hnliches Geschehnis als ein Hexenwerk oder als ein
unheildrohendes Ereignis betrachtete [?] Ein anderes, von Pferd und
Maultierstute erzeugtes Fohlen wurde in Schottland geworfen, aber von den
biederen Landleuten, welche das Tier f?r ein Ungeheuer erkl?rten, sofort
get?tet.



[Mule (Equus mulus)

Mule (Equus hinnus)

Miscarriages are most common among mares mated with donkeys or vice versa
among female donkeys mated with horses.

Even in recent times it has been repeatedly claimed that mules or hinnies
are infertile. However, this is not always the case. Examples have been
known since ancient times that the interbreeding of donkey and horse
produced offspring, but [...] such an unusual event was considered to be
witchcraft or a threat of mischief [...] Another foal produced by horse and
mule mare was dropped in Scotland, but immediately killed by the simple
country folk who declared the animal a monster.]

(Brehms Tierleben. Die S?ugetiere. Dritter Band. 3. Auflage. (1900):
Maultier und Maulesel.pp. 75 ? 79)).



[The following excerpt from another work is of some significance in
answering the question of what can happen when a she-donkey becomes
pregnant.



F?r die Zucht von Mauleseln muss bei der Auswahl des Deckhengstes unbedingt
auf die Gr??e der Eselstute R?cksicht genommen werden. F?r eine Eselstute
kann es lebensgef?hrlich werden, wenn sie von einem zu gro?en Pferdehengst
gedeckt wird und sie versucht, diese Frucht auszutragen. Wohl sagt man im
Volksmund, die Frucht passe sich dem K?rper an, und doch ist es schon
vorgekommen, dass die wachsende Frucht f?r die Stute zu gro? wurde, so dass
Stute und Fohlen ein kl?gliches Ende nahmen. (Gugelberg, Helene von;
B?hler, Cordula: Alles ?ber Maultiere. Cham 1994: pp. 88f.)



["For the breeding of hinnies, it is essential to consider the size of the
donkey mare when choosing a stallion. For a jenny mare it can be
life-threatening if she is mated to a stallion who is too large and she has
to carry this fruit. It is said that the embryo adapts to the body, but it
has happened that the growing embryo has become too large for the jenny, so
that the jenny and foal came to a miserable end."]



If these dimensions (stallion : jenny) are applied to the mating of the
product of the first one, i.e. the mating of a she-hinny, who is even
smaller than her jenny mother, to a stallion (stallion : she-hinny), it can
be concluded that her risk of dying from the oversize of her foetus is even
greater than that of her mother, the jenny.



Randomly collected:



Against the dictionary entries as quoted by Roland Steiner, Van Buitenen
translates* khar?v?tsalya* (MBh) as ?a she-ass?s love? (p. 435).



Wackernagel AiGr II,2 (p. 370) has ?Maulesel?, and only ?Maulesel? for
*a?vatara*/*?*. He points to a probable etymological relationship with
*a?v?-star?* ?equa sterilis? (= ?a barren mare?), see p. 604. In this
context of *(*a*)*star*-, cp. also Persian *astar* = a ?Maulesel? (?hinny?)
in Salemann?s ?Persische Grammatik? (1889: p. 7), but a ?mule? (?Maultier?)
in Steingass? Persian dictionary.



For a correct translation of *a?vatar?* by she-hinny? (?Mauleselin?), cp.
Harry Falk, Bruderschaft p. 95f (n. 307):

?Weg f?hren wir deinen Zorn, wie den Embryo aus der Mauleselin?.



The text runs as follows (cited without accentuation):

*vi te krodham nay?masi garbham a?vatary? iva* (?pastamb?yamantrap??ha
II.22.2)

(Ed. Winternitz, Mantrap??ha of the ?pastambins. Oxford 1897).



Let me add an important remark made by Jayar?ma in his commentary on a
parallel of the above passage in *P?raskarag?hyas?tra* 13.3.5:

*yath? a?vatar? garbhapu??im asaham?n? am?rge?a mu?cant?, tath?*.

(Ed. M. G. Bakre, Bombay 1927: p. 393).

*garbhapu??i* clearly refers to the oversize of the embryo, which the
she-hinny cannot bear and which she loses accordingly in/on a bad way.


Hinnology and mulology seem to develop into two important branches of
Indology (with two sub-branches of she-hinnology and she-mulology, which
quadruples the matter).

It is likely to become an obsession.


Regards,

WS


Am Mi., 25. Nov. 2020 um 01:00 Uhr schrieb Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com
>:

> Vielen dank, profs. Steiner and Slaje, for these materials. Please correct
> me if I am wrong, but my impression (and some reference works) treat
> Mauleselin as applying to she-mule as well as she-hinny, being a female
> form of Maulesel (m. male or hinny). While hinnies have more difficulty
> than mules producing offspring, that expression applied to a mule/hinny who
> has no offspring would lean toward implying a hinny, but she-mules can also
> have difficulty conceiving, so the term itself fails to distinguish between
> them. Is that right? That would seem to mirror some of what we have been
> finding in the older Sanskrit literature (and the dictionaries).
>
> That still makes the 4th c Chinese translation puzzling, since it clearly
> expresses a difference in nomenclature. I might add that the term it uses
> for hinny, ?? juxu, was not a neologism invented by the translator, but a
> term used at least as early as the Han (and thus pre-Buddhist entry to
> China) for an unusual beast, mentioned in the Huainanzi (completed before
> 139 BCE), in an anecdote in bk. 12, section 9 or 10 (depending on edition)
> (in the complete Eng. tr. by John Major, et al., the passage appears on p.
> 447). The full name of the juxu is ???? Qiongqiong juxu, which the Major,
> et al. tr. renders as ?fabulous-big-and-small? (I am mystified by that
> translation, but assume they had their reasons). Qiong usually means a
> grasshopper or cricket, or it can mean ?anxious? in usual usage, but see
> below for a more illuminating definition.
>
> *Le Grand Ricci Online* has the following under ? ju:
> ?1. Hybride d?un cheval et d?une mule ou (peut-?tre) bardot.
> 2. (Myth.) Sp?cial. ds ?? j? x? Sorte de cheval sauvage, qui vit toujours
> en compagnie de la gerboise.?
>
> Since ?bardot? means an animal born from the coupling of a horse and an
> ass, does this specify a hinny as opposed to a mule, as suggested by the
> distinction in the definition? A gerboise is a N. African rodent with short
> front legs and long hind legs, which fits the description of the ? jue, the
> animal in the Huainanzi story about the Qiongqiong juxu (Major, et al.
> aptly translate jue as the ?stumbler?: HNZ says it is like a mouse in front
> and a rabbit behind, and has trouble walking quickly. The Huainanzi story
> say that the jue feeds the Qiongqiong xuju sweet grass, so when in trouble,
> the latter carries it away on its back. (The moral of the story is that
> rulers need to rely on their ministers in difficult times so they should
> treat them well during good times).
>
> *A Student?s Dictionary of Classical and Medieval Chinese Online (Chinese
> ? English)* has:
>
>  ? (j?)
> ?MC gjoX [that is, the reconstructed Middle Chinese pronunciation-DL]
>     offspring of a molly (female mule) and a stallion (male horse).
>     (bn.) ?? j?x? (MC gjoX-xjo), usu. ???? qi?ngqi?ngj?x?, ? ? qi?ng.?
>
> Under qiong it has this interesting tidbit:
>
> "qi?ng
> MC gjowng
>     locust.
>     rdup., Xiongnu name of the wild ass, chigetai; also, fabulous
> quadruped (usu. ???? qi?ngqi?ngj?x?) said to be swift-running but unable to
> procure its own food, often paired with ? ju? whose characteristics are
> just the opposite, hence they need each other; another explanation says the
> qi?ngqi?ng and j?x? are 2 animals, one having long forelegs and short
> hind-legs, the other just the opposite, so one cannot go anywhere without
> the other; also, sad and sorrowing, hapless and heavy-hearted.?
>
> So, it would seem the translation of the sutra by Zhu Tanwulan
> (*Dharmarak?a, *Dharmaratna), a Central Asian monk, drew on an
> understanding of ju adopted from the ?barbarian? Xiongnu tribes of the
> eastern Steppes for a wild donkey. The story being referenced is the one in
> the Huainanzi, and the alternate interpretation would indicate that
> competing understandings of how to interpret the HNZ passage arose. Both
> terms in the compound juxu contain the horse radical ?, indicating they
> denote something related to equines.
>
> Still unclear if this brings us closer to an underlying Sanskrit (or
> prakrit) term exclusively used for hinnies, but it does indicate that some
> ancient groups did use nomenclature that distinguished mules from hinnies.
>
> I will finally add that the compound juxu appears some other Chinese
> translations of Buddhist texts. Juxu is used in the Sa?yukta-?gama ?? SA
> 1064 (T.2.276b20), for which the two corresponding Pali texts, Devadatta
> Sutta (AN 4.68 / AN ii 73) and Acirapakkanta Sutta (SN 17.35 / SN ii 241)
> have assatar? (female mule) in the parallel position (seyyath?pi,
> bhikkhave, assatar? attavadh?ya gabbha? ga?h?ti, par?bhav?ya gabbha?
> ga?h?ti). The Pa?carathasata Sutta (SN 17.36 / SN ii 242) which somewhat
> parallels them, replaces reference to a mule with a wild dog (ca??assa
> kukkurassa)(seyyath?pi, bhikkhave, ca??assa kukkurassa n?s?ya pitta?
> bhindeyyu?? ?Just as a wild dog becomes even wilder when they sprinkle bile
> over its nose?? Bhikkhu Bodhi?s translation).
>
> With appreciation,
> Dan
> .
>
> On Nov 24, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> die Mutterliebe einer Mauleselin (die nie Junge hat), so v.a. eine
> ?belangebrachte M[utterliebe], eine M[utterliebe] f?r Nichts und wieder
> Nichts
>
>
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Nov 25 09:27:25 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 09:27:25 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ceoudi-Oq0z1pxwX4r=nRB5-3TRqpQ9LNYQ8OMKvJJ7dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB43963309DBE525298ECD784FA1FA0@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Dominik,

Thank you indeed for keeping it unfussy and low-tech. We have plenty of bells and whistles distracting us as is.

all best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 9:03 PM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY

I've had my champagne :-)   A very nice, dry Italian prosecco.

Reflecting on INDOLOGY, one remarkable feature of the list is that it's still using pretty old-fashioned software.  The forum started with ?ric Thomas's LISTSERV, released in 1986 and run for us by Liverpool University.  But we now use Mailman, which was written by John Viega and others and released in 1999, and currently maintained by Abhilash Raj<https://asynchronous.in/about/>.  As we all know, it's just email bouncing about.  There are more sophisticated systems available: bulletin boards, Google groups, etc.  But last time we asked the INDOLOGY membership if they would like one of these new systems, there was an overwhelming opinion against change.  And for me, part of the charm of INDOLOGY is this unfussy, low-tech aspect.  It leaves us free to think about Indology.

Best,
Dominik



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From alessandr.battistin9 at unibo.it  Wed Nov 25 10:52:36 2020
From: alessandr.battistin9 at unibo.it (Alessandro Battistini)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 10:52:36 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] annual report Indian epigraphy 1900
Message-ID: <AM0PR01MB54571E65F4AA8DBD40DFD9AFBAFA0@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Dear List Members,

I am looking for a copy of the Annual Report on Indian Epigraphy (ARIE) for the year 1920. The record might also be known as Government Order (GO) of the Madras Presidency, and finally as Madras Epigraphical Record (MER).

Does anyone have a pdf?

Thank you,

Alessandro Battistini

UniBo
SHIVADHARMA Project


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 11:06:24 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 12:06:24 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] search for scan
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoCwKtVOz9P_mV-KhBL3_=_6d4i8Ext2+hPNmbxhRwzDvg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,
At present I am still unable to get to some of my books and a scan would be
anyway convenient, especially of the following:
Schmithausen, L.
1997 Maitri and Magic: Aspects of the Buddhist Attitude Toward the
Dangerous in Nature. Wien: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der
Wissenschaften.
Thanks for replying offlist.
With best regards,
Jan

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 11:27:28 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 12:27:28 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] search for scan
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoCwKtVOz9P_mV-KhBL3_=_6d4i8Ext2+hPNmbxhRwzDvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAU-ZqV21+HHFuE=fO-4hfN78cQ4_O9Q+KumUq2g1f78A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,
I thank Corinna Lhoir, Hamburg, for a helpful reaction.
For the same reasons I am also in search of a scan of:
Wilhelm Halbfass, Karma und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken, 2000.
With best regards,
Jan

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 12:06, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
> At present I am still unable to get to some of my books and a scan would
> be anyway convenient, especially of the following:
> Schmithausen, L.
> 1997 Maitri and Magic: Aspects of the Buddhist Attitude Toward the
> Dangerous in Nature. Wien: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der
> Wissenschaften.
> Thanks for replying offlist.
> With best regards,
> Jan
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>


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From timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 11:31:22 2020
From: timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com (Tim Felix Aufderheide)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 12:31:22 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] aluk-compounds
Message-ID: <b8d6c159-b6b5-abd1-f9a5-e325e099d87b@gmail.com>

Dear fellow list members,

does anybody happen to know of (an) example(s) from Sanskrit literature 
(preferably Vedic or Epic) in which a genitival /aluk/-compound is used 
as an insult? I mean in partcular the type of /aluk/-compounds whose 
usage is described and licensed by P??. 6.3.21 and 6.3.22.

Hints to secondary literature on cursing and swear words in Ancient 
India or on the aforementioned S?tras (and maybe also Details on the 
P??inian treatment of /aluk/-compound in general) would of course be 
highly appreciated as well.

Thanks in advance

Tim



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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 11:42:27 2020
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 12:42:27 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] aluk-compounds
In-Reply-To: <b8d6c159-b6b5-abd1-f9a5-e325e099d87b@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4JuKXeqzJErPTEJOwj6_N6reQgPhrcPJJzt=t_FU53_dQ@mail.gmail.com>

perhaps only of minimal or indeed no relevance to your question:

Dwivedi, R. C. 1981. ?Concept of Obscenity (a?l?lat?) in Sanskrit Poetics.?
Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 62.1/4: 67?76.
Hopkins, E. Washburn. 1925. ?Words of Defamation in Sanskrit Legal
Language.? Journal of the American Oriental Society 45: 39?50.
Masson-Moussaieff, J. 1971. ?Obscenity in Sanskrit Literature.? Mahfil
7.3/4: 197?207.
Vigasin, Alexey A. 2016. ?Verbal Abuse and Obscenity in Ancient India?,
Vestnik drevnei istorii 76/1: 108?117. In Russian: ??????? ?. ?. ?????????
? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? // ??????? ???????? ???????.

Jonathan


On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 12:32 PM Tim Felix Aufderheide via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear fellow list members,
>
> does anybody happen to know of (an) example(s) from Sanskrit literature
> (preferably Vedic or Epic) in which a genitival *aluk*-compound is used
> as an insult? I mean in partcular the type of *aluk*-compounds whose
> usage is described and licensed by P??. 6.3.21 and 6.3.22.
>
> Hints to secondary literature on cursing and swear words in Ancient India
> or on the aforementioned S?tras (and maybe also Details on the P??inian
> treatment of *aluk*-compound in general) would of course be highly
> appreciated as well.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Wed Nov 25 11:50:34 2020
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 12:50:34 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nUQzHb-skea2iS5VP7d-QMS-tUjXSA7Qn357Z70RLxCog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20201125125034.Horde.6IH1xgsSBoEqQG5yd0Pgrdg@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

> Against the dictionary entries as quoted by Roland Steiner, Van Buitenen
> translates /khar?v?tsalya/ (MBh) as ?a she-ass?s love? (p. 435).

This corresponds to Ganguli's translation::
?
?If, O Sanjaya, thou art about to be stained with infamy and I do not  
(from affection) tell thee anything, then that affection, worthless  
and unreasonable, would be like that of the she-ass?s for her young.?
?
ta? tv?m aya?as? sp???a? na br?y?? yadi sa?jaya
khar?v?tsalyam ?hus tan ni?s?marthyam ahetukam (MBh 5.133.6)
?
The reason for this interpretation is obvious: The standard dictionary  
meaning of /khara /is ?donkey? (/khar? /?she-donkey?), but why should  
the affection of a she-donkey towards her foal be ?inappropriate? and  
?groundless?? The PW (and other dictionaries), however, lists further  
meanings of /khara/, including ?mule? (?Maulthier?).
The fact that the female form /khar? /according to the same dictionary  
also should mean ?she-hinny? (?Mauleselin?) besides ?she-donkey? could  
be a further hint that the difference between mules and hinnies was  
not taken into account here.

By the way, B?htlingk's main source for the meaning "/khara/ = mule  
('Maulthier')" is Puru?ottamadeva's /Trik???a?e?a /2.8.44, where three  
words meaning "mule" (and/or "hinny"?) are listed (/ve?ara /[=  
/vesara/], /a?vatara/, and /khara/).

Best regards,
Roland Steiner


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 15:04:11 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 16:04:11 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] search for scan
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoAU-ZqV21+HHFuE=fO-4hfN78cQ4_O9Q+KumUq2g1f78A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAapLVDXFUWTrah9CC_tfsDva=ZHXn1Si_uL4nMKNPGtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,
I also thank Birgit Kellner and No?mie Verdon for their helpful reactions.
With best regards,
Jan

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 12:27, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
> I thank Corinna Lhoir, Hamburg, for a helpful reaction.
> For the same reasons I am also in search of a scan of:
> Wilhelm Halbfass, Karma und Wiedergeburt im indischen Denken, 2000.
> With best regards,
> Jan
>
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 12:06, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>> At present I am still unable to get to some of my books and a scan would
>> be anyway convenient, especially of the following:
>> Schmithausen, L.
>> 1997 Maitri and Magic: Aspects of the Buddhist Attitude Toward the
>> Dangerous in Nature. Wien: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der
>> Wissenschaften.
>> Thanks for replying offlist.
>> With best regards,
>> Jan
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>
>
>
>

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From msa2b at virginia.edu  Wed Nov 25 17:00:58 2020
From: msa2b at virginia.edu (Allen, Michael S (msa2b))
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 17:00:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] American Academy of Religion - Hindu Philosophy Unit
Message-ID: <MN2PR13MB32161057A102F488F58E8BA88AFA0@MN2PR13MB3216.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>

[With apologies for cross-posting ...]

Dear Colleagues,

We are delighted to announce that the newly formed Hindu Philosophy Unit will be hosting two sessions (and co-hosting a third) at this year's online meeting of the American Academy of Religion. Our two main sessions are:

  *   Ways of Knowledge (I): Debating Perception (Dec. 2, 11am-1pm EST)
  *   Ways of Knowledge (II): New Approaches (Dec. 10, 4-6pm EST)

We are also co-sponsoring a session with three other units:

  *   Roundtable on Roy Tzohar's A Yog?c?ra Buddhist Theory of Metaphor (Dec. 3, 1:45-3:15pm EST)

For details, please see below. We hope those of you who are attending AAR will join us for these inaugural sessions.


Best wishes,


Michael S. Allen, University of Virginia
Parimal G. Patil, Harvard University
Co-Chairs, Hindu Philosophy unit


???????????????????


Theme: Ways of Knowing (I): Debating Perception


Wednesday, December 2, 11:00 AM-1:00 PM (EST UTC-5)


Nalini Bhushan, Smith College, Presiding<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/bhushan-nalini-smith-college>


What does it mean to know something, and how does one arrive at knowledge? These questions are foundational to all traditions of Indian philosophy, and the Hindu Philosophy Unit is therefore devoting its two inaugural sessions to the theme ?Ways of Knowing.? This first session will focus on debates about perception?sense-perception as well as mystical perception?and will itself follow a debate format. Each presenter will have 20-25 minutes to sketch an argument; an ?opponent," or devil?s advocate, will have 5 minutes to criticize the argument; the presenter will then have 5 minutes to respond, followed by 5-10 minutes of further debate and 20 minutes of audience discussion. The first presentation considers a ninth-century Hindu response to a Buddhist argument for momentariness from the starting-point of ordinary perceptual awareness. The second paper focuses on the nineteenth-century saint Ramakrishna, developing an argument for the plausibility of truth-claims based on mystical experience.

  *   Alex Watson, Ashoka University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/watson-alex-ashoka-university-0>

Do the Perceptions of Non-Enlightened People Weigh in Favor of, or Against, Momentariness?

Abstract<https://papers.aarweb.org/online-program-book?keys=%22Hindu+Philosophy%22&field_timeslot_target_id=All>

  *   Jeffery D. Long, Elizabethtown College<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/jeffery-d-long-elizabethtown-college>

Vij??na as a Pram??a: The Experiential Foundation of Sri Ramakrishna's Religious Pluralism

Abstract<https://papers.aarweb.org/online-program-book?keys=%22Hindu+Philosophy%22&field_timeslot_target_id=All>


Responding

Rosanna Picascia, Swarthmore College<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/rosanna-picascia-swarthmore-college>

Catherine Prueitt, University of British Columbia<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/catherine-prueitt-university-british-columbia>



------------



Theme: Ways of Knowing (II): New Approaches


Thursday, December 10, 4:00 PM-6:00 PM (EST UTC-5)


Loriliai Biernacki, University of Colorado, Presiding<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/biernacki-loriliai-university-colorado>


What does it mean to know something, and how does one arrive at knowledge? These questions are foundational to all schools of Indian philosophy, and the Hindu Philosophy unit is therefore devoting its two inaugural sessions to the theme ?Ways of Knowing.? This second session highlights new and original approaches to the study of Hindu epistemology. The first paper explores an unusual distinction between ?learned? (vaidu?a) and ?unlearned? perception in the work of the sixteenth-century Vai??ava theologian J?va Gosw?m?. The second paper traces the history, not of a philosophical debate, but of a stock philosophical example: that of a jeweler?s knowledge of a gem. The final paper focuses on an allegorical folk drama by the Telegu poetess Tarigo??a V??gam?mba (1735-1817), drawing attention to ways of knowledge outside the male-dominated, Sanskrit-dominated realm with which Indian philosophy is typically associated.

  *   Aleksandar Uskokov, Yale University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/uskokov-aleksandar-yale-university>

Making Sense of Religious Experience: J?va Gosv?min and ?Learned Perception?

Abstract<https://papers.aarweb.org/online-program-book?keys=%22Hindu+Philosophy%22&field_timeslot_target_id=All>

  *   James Reich, Pace University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/reich-james-pace-university>

The Gem and the Jeweler: The History of a Stock Example

Abstract<https://papers.aarweb.org/online-program-book?keys=%22Hindu+Philosophy%22&field_timeslot_target_id=All>

  *   Aalekhya Malladi, Emory University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/malladi-aalekhya-emory-university>

The Trouble with M?ya: Philosophical Considerations in a Telugu Poetess' Folk Drama

Abstract<https://papers.aarweb.org/online-program-book?keys=%22Hindu+Philosophy%22&field_timeslot_target_id=All>


Business Meeting

Michael Allen, University of Virginia, Presiding<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/allen-michael-university-virginia>

Parimal G. Patil, Harvard University, Presiding<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/patil-parimal-g-harvard-university>



------------



Theme: Roundtable on Roy Tzohar's *A Yog?c?ra Buddhist Theory of Metaphor* (Oxford University Press, 2018)


Thursday, December 3, 1:45 PM-3:15 PM (EST UTC-5)


Tao Jiang, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, Presiding<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/jiang-tao-rutgers-university-new-brunswick>


This roundtable brings together six scholars to discuss the intellectual achievements of and new avenues of inquiry opened by Tzohar?s book, 2018 winner of the prestigious Toshihide Numata Book Award in Buddhism. The roundtable discussion will highlight the way that Tzohar?s book ? ostensibly just an articulation of the Buddhist philosopher Sthiramati?s view that all language is metaphorical, itself an ambitious and rewarding achievement ? also accomplishes much more, including the careful contextualization of Sthiramati?s work in relation to other Buddhist and to non-Buddhist schools of South Asian philosophy of language, and the thoughtful and creative articulation of the relationship between Buddhist philosophy of language and other central ontological and soteriological concerns of Buddhist thought. Discussants are drawn from diverse sub-fields in Buddhist and South Asian philosophy and literature, and Tzohar will be a respondent.



Panelists

Jonathan Gold, Princeton University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/gold-jonathan-princeton-university>

Laurie Louise Patton, Middlebury College<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/patton-laurie-louise-middlebury-college>

Joy Brennan, Kenyon College<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/joy-brennan-kenyon-college>

Richard Nance, Indiana University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/nance-richard-indiana-university>

Catherine Prueitt, University of British Columbia<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/prueitt-catherine-university-british-columbia>

Parimal G. Patil, Harvard University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/patil-parimal-g-harvard-university>



Responding

Roy Tzohar, Tel-Aviv University<https://papers.aarweb.org/users/roy-tzohar-tel-aviv-university>



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From alessandr.battistin9 at unibo.it  Wed Nov 25 18:20:44 2020
From: alessandr.battistin9 at unibo.it (Alessandro Battistini)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 18:20:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] R: annual report Indian epigraphy 1900
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR01MB54571E65F4AA8DBD40DFD9AFBAFA0@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR01MB54574129CBEDB75229DD4EC2BAFA0@AM0PR01MB5457.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Thanks to D?niel Balogh and Manu Francis for providing the scan!

Alessandro Battistini

UniBo
SHIVADHARMA Project
________________________________
Da: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> per conto di Alessandro Battistini via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Inviato: mercoled? 25 novembre 2020 11:52
A: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
Oggetto: [INDOLOGY] annual report Indian epigraphy 1900

Dear List Members,

I am looking for a copy of the Annual Report on Indian Epigraphy (ARIE) for the year 1920. The record might also be known as Government Order (GO) of the Madras Presidency, and finally as Madras Epigraphical Record (MER).

Does anyone have a pdf?

Thank you,

Alessandro Battistini

UniBo
SHIVADHARMA Project


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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 20:17:56 2020
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 20 15:17:56 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_vekura=C3=B1ja,_Turner's_article?=
In-Reply-To: <20201125125034.Horde.6IH1xgsSBoEqQG5yd0Pgrdg@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <EC448C03-843D-41FB-9734-134F3F1C3EF2@gmail.com>

Once again, I am grateful for these additional sources and suggestions.

To perhaps close out this lapse into obsession, a final observation on the term juxu as used in Buddhist translations. While searching for appearances of juxu that have extant Indic parallels, I found the following.

The Chinese tr. of Dharmap?da:
??????2?33 ?????
???????????????
????[25]???????????
???????????????
????????????????(CBETA, T04, no. 210, p. 571, b28-c2)
[25]???????

Verbatim rendering of that verse in the Chinese tr. of the Ud?navarga:
??????14?14 ?????
???????????????
????????????????(CBETA, T04, no. 212, p. 687, b5-6)

and again, the same verse, this time with prose commentary, at
??????15?14 ?????
???????????????
????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????(CBETA, T04, no. 212, p. 688, b23-28)

The corresponding Ud?na-varga passage has a?vatar?? (f. accusative) where ?? juxu appears in Chinese.

phala? vai kadali? hanti phala? ve?u? phala? na?am |
satk?ra? k?puru?a? hanti svagarbho '?vatar?? yath? ||
y?vad eva hy anarth?ya j??to bhavati b?li?a? |
hanti b?lasya ?ukl???a? m?rdh?na? c?sya p?tayet ||
(Satkaravarga Ud?na-varga 13, Bernhard 1965, 13.1)

I don?t believe there is a Pali counterpart to these verses in the Dhammapada.

The Sanghabhedavastu of the Vinayavastvagama of the Mulasarvastivadin (= Vastu 17 of the Vinayavastu) cites the verse pair almost verbatim 
(differences: k?puru?a? > puru?a?; m?rdh?na? > m?rdhno; c?sya p?tayet > ?py asya nip?tayat)

phala? vai kadal?? hanti phala? ve?u? phala? na?am |
satk?ra? puru?a? hanti svagarbho ??vatar?? yath? ||
y?vad eva hy anarth?ya j??to bhavati b?li?a? |
hanti b?lasya ?ukl??sa? m?rdhno ?py asya nip?tayat ||

A related Tibetan verse treats a?vatar? as a female mule:

|| dre'u mo rang gi mngal gyis dang ||
'dam bu smyig ma 'bras bus dang ||
chu ?ing 'bras bus phung pa ltar ||
pho b?al bkur stis phung bar 'gyur ||

ji srid blun po mchod byas pa ||
de srid rab tu brlag par 'gyur ||
khyis pa'i dkar po'i cha 'grib cing ||
de yi spyi bo'ang nges par nyams ||
-
dre?u = mule, young bear (!)
dre'u mo rang gi mngal gyis = a mule?s womb
==

But curiously, where the Pali Dhammapada (322; 23.3) has

Varam assatar? dant?, 
?j?n?y? ca sindhav?;
Ku?jar? ca mah?n?g?,
attadanto tato vara?.

?Excellent are well-trained mules,
and well-bred Sindh horses,
and elephants with large tusks.
Better than these is someone well restrained.?

(varam = excellent, assatar? = mule, dant? = well trained)

The Chinese counterparts mention ?? ?swift Sindh horse? (= sindhav?), and elephant (ku?jara, ?), but omit any mention of mule (or hinny).

??????2?31 ?????
??????????????????????
CBETA, T04, no. 210, p. 570, b13-14)

Also:
??????19?20 ?????
??????????????????????????
(CBETA, T04, no. 212, p. 712, a20-21)

A slightly different translation, semantically identical.
????????2?19 ?????
???????????????
???????????????
?(CBETA, T04, no. 213, p. 786, c17-19)

Which corresponds to Ud?navarga 19.7:
Ud?navarga 19.7 A?va

yoyo hy a?va? damayej j?nyam 
?j?neya? ca saindhavam 
ku?jara? v? mah?n?gam 
?tm? d?ntas tato varam

Like the Chinese, this Ud?navarga verse only mentions a horse (a?va) that is well-trained (damayet), of good breed (?j?neya) from Sindh (saindhava), the elephant (ku?jara), etc., but makes no mention of mule or hinny.

Margaret Cone?s Patna edition of the Dharmapada, however, more closely parallels the Pali, and mentions the mule (assatara = Skt. a?vatara) <>:

Patna 91 [6.8] ?oka

varam assatar? d?nt?
?j?ney? ca sendhav? |
ku?jar? va mah?n?g?
?tt? d?nto tato vara? ||

Final note: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary on assatara:

1) Assatara (p. 90) [Vedic a?vatara, a?va + compar. suffix tara in function of "a kind of", thus lit. a kind of horse, cp. Lat. matertera a kind of mother. i. e. aunt] a mule Dh 322 = DhA i.213; DhA iv.4 (= va?av?ya gadrabhena j?ta); J iv.464 (kambojake assatare sudante; imported from Cambodia); vi.342. ? f. assatar? a she -- mule Vin ii.188; S i.154; ii.241; A ii.73; Miln 166. -- assatar? -- ratha a chariot drawn by she -- mules Vv 203, 208 (T. assatar? rat?) = 438; Pv i.111 (= assatariyutta ratha PvA 56); J vi.355.

Dan



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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Thu Nov 26 09:31:30 2020
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 10:31:30 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] HathiTrust Emergency Temporary Access Service (ETAS)
Message-ID: <205A2B03-343F-42A8-BE3C-7F7C6866494E@uclouvain.be>

Dear List,

I should check the commentaries provided with the following 1999 edition of the Nalodaya:
https://www.worldcat.org/title/nalodayam-muninrsimhasramakrtayanvayadipikaya-ramarsiviracitaya-yamakabodhinya-atreyagovindabhattapranitaya-dipikaya-maithilaprajnakarakrtaya-subodhinya-ca-sanathitam-sampadakakrtaya-vidyavatya-tippanya-hindibhasanuvadena-calankrtam/oclc/246998499 

This edition is now out of print.
It appears to exist in digital form with Hathitrus, with the urlt: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015043017915
but the pdf is not available.
However, the online catalogues (access via the Worldcat link given here before) of the USA libraries of Harvard, Columbia, NYPL, Cornell, UPenn, Virginia, Michigan, Chicago, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Washington, Texas, Berkeley, California, Hawaii,
let think that, through the "HathiTrust Emergency Temporary Access Service (ETAS)", the online item could be accessible, on the basis of these respective libraries login.

Would a scholar of these universities be kind enough to try to see if the item on HathiTrust is really available? (and, wonderfully, get the pdf if possible).

Thank you in advance,

Yours

?
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From shankaranair at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 09:52:34 2020
From: shankaranair at gmail.com (Shankar Nair)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 04:52:34 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] HathiTrust Emergency Temporary Access Service (ETAS)
In-Reply-To: <205A2B03-343F-42A8-BE3C-7F7C6866494E@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <CAN5=mo7LoPqCOYH4pU3f1WgSx1x+GK_X6L-M+jHm5wibtOh3zg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Vielle,

An electronic version of the item is indeed available on HathiTrust.
However, the way HathiTrust works is that, in an electronic imitation of a
physical library, only one individual at a time is permitted to "check out"
the item and view it digitally through the HathiTrust portal. You then
"keep" the item for one hour (with ability to renew for additional
hour(s)), and then "return" the electronic item for the next patron.
According to my university librarians, at least, there is no way to
download the PDF.

Wish I could be of more help,

Shankar Nair

Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies and
Middle Eastern & South Asian Languages & Cultures
University of Virginia
363 Gibson Hall
1540 Jefferson Park Avenue
Charlottesville, VA 22903

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 4:32 AM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I should check the commentaries provided with the following 1999 edition
> of the Nalodaya:
>
> https://www.worldcat.org/title/nalodayam-muninrsimhasramakrtayanvayadipikaya-ramarsiviracitaya-yamakabodhinya-atreyagovindabhattapranitaya-dipikaya-maithilaprajnakarakrtaya-subodhinya-ca-sanathitam-sampadakakrtaya-vidyavatya-tippanya-hindibhasanuvadena-calankrtam/oclc/246998499
>
>
> This edition is now out of print.
> It appears to exist in digital form with Hathitrus, with the urlt:
> https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015043017915
> but the pdf is not available.
> However, the online catalogues (access via the Worldcat link given here
> before) of the USA libraries of Harvard, Columbia, NYPL, Cornell, UPenn,
> Virginia, Michigan, Chicago, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Washington, Texas,
> Berkeley, California, Hawaii,
> let think that, through the "HathiTrust Emergency Temporary Access Service
> (ETAS)", the online item could be accessible, on the basis of these
> respective libraries login.
>
> Would a scholar of these universities be kind enough to try to see if the
> item on HathiTrust is really available? (and, wonderfully, get the pdf if
> possible).
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Yours
>
> ?
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Thu Nov 26 10:57:45 2020
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 11:57:45 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB43963309DBE525298ECD784FA1FA0@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <9e45eb445380f74e2f01ad5e6ca2f485@uni-muenchen.de>

I second that!

RZ


On 2020-11-25 10:27, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
> 
> Thank you indeed for keeping it unfussy and low-tech. We have plenty of 
> bells and whistles distracting us as is.
> 
> all best,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein


> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of 
> Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 9:03 PM
> To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
> 
> I've had my champagne :-)   A very nice, dry Italian prosecco.
> 
> Reflecting on INDOLOGY, one remarkable feature of the list is that it's 
> still using pretty old-fashioned software.  The forum started with ?ric 
> Thomas's LISTSERV, released in 1986 and run for us by Liverpool 
> University.  But we now use Mailman, which was written by John Viega 
> and others and released in 1999, and currently maintained by Abhilash 
> Raj.  As we all know, it's just email bouncing about.  There are more 
> sophisticated systems available: bulletin boards, Google groups, etc.  
> But last time we asked the INDOLOGY membership if they would like one 
> of these new systems, there was an overwhelming opinion against change. 
>  And for me, part of the charm of INDOLOGY is this unfussy, low-tech 
> aspect.  It leaves us free to think about Indology.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik


-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
Department of Asian Studies
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU)
Germany





From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 14:08:45 2020
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 09:08:45 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <9e45eb445380f74e2f01ad5e6ca2f485@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o8kE_7tF1Fm+1YVV34OKsFZojEzSx=sgR9upq2OJ+GY+A@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you to Dominik for the restraint and good judgement that allowed the
Indology list to survive and stay focused on Indology.  And thank you to
the members for their expertise and generosity.
Harry Spier


On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 5:58 AM Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I second that!
>
> RZ
>
>
> On 2020-11-25 10:27, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> > Dear Dominik,
> >
> > Thank you indeed for keeping it unfussy and low-tech. We have plenty of
> > bells and whistles distracting us as is.
> >
> > all best,
> > Matthew
> >
> > Matthew Kapstein
>
>
> > From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> > Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 9:03 PM
> > To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Anniversary of INDOLOGY
> >
> > I've had my champagne :-)   A very nice, dry Italian prosecco.
> >
> > Reflecting on INDOLOGY, one remarkable feature of the list is that it's
> > still using pretty old-fashioned software.  The forum started with ?ric
> > Thomas's LISTSERV, released in 1986 and run for us by Liverpool
> > University.  But we now use Mailman, which was written by John Viega
> > and others and released in 1999, and currently maintained by Abhilash
> > Raj.  As we all know, it's just email bouncing about.  There are more
> > sophisticated systems available: bulletin boards, Google groups, etc.
> > But last time we asked the INDOLOGY membership if they would like one
> > of these new systems, there was an overwhelming opinion against change.
> >  And for me, part of the charm of INDOLOGY is this unfussy, low-tech
> > aspect.  It leaves us free to think about Indology.
> >
> > Best,
> > Dominik
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
> Institute of Indology and Tibetology
> Department of Asian Studies
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU)
> Germany
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Thu Nov 26 15:01:55 2020
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 16:01:55 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication: A Manual of Modern Kannada
Message-ID: <9222cf4e-41d4-203d-987f-811356fde610@uni-muenchen.de>


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From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 26 16:06:20 2020
From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 11:06:20 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication: A Manual of Modern Kannada
In-Reply-To: <9222cf4e-41d4-203d-987f-811356fde610@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <3AAFA71E-74EB-4E4D-A549-65FB820CF54B@yahoo.com>

Congratulations, Robert! Well done!

Now you have me wanting to learn Kannada. There is a wealth of Jain and Jain-related literature in Kannada, as you know better than most of us.

With warmest regards,
Jeff

Dr. Jeffery D. Long
Professor of Religion and Asian Studies
Elizabethtown College
Elizabethtown, PA
 
https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong
 
Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, Philosophical, and Theological
Lexington Books
 
?One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life.?  (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
 
?We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.? (Carl Sagan)

> On Nov 26, 2020, at 10:01 AM, Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> As of today, my new book A Manual of Modern Kannada has become available as an Open Access publication athttps://crossasia-books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/xasia/catalog/book/736 <https://crossasia-books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/xasia/catalog/book/736> (The clickable button ?Buch herunterladen? means ?Download book?; ?Buch kaufen? means ?Buy book?.)
> 
> Indologists on this list: please bear in mind that there is also a wealth of highly interesting secondary literature in Kannada on classical Indological matters? (this is a hint. Encouragement. Prodding). Kannada is a conservative language, which has remained largely unchanged for the past several centuries. Once one has learnt modern Kannada, it is not a big jump to Old Kannada (yes, it is a jump, but not gigantic).
> 
> (Warning: now comes a shameless act of advertising ?)
> 
> This learner?s manual of standard modern written Kannada was written for use at the University of Munich and tested in teaching practice with students over the past few years, but it can also be used for self-learning. The focus is on the written language (which is the only truly sensible thing to do, as is explained on pp. x-xi), but there are occasional remarks about speech variations in regional and colloquial usage. The grammar is covered in 19 lessons, followed by appendices about the phonemic system and script, numerals, strong verbs, colloquialisms, and sandhi. Experience has shown that the material in the book can be studied in the classroom with 4 hours of weekly teaching very easily within an academic year (30 weeks of teaching), and a few times this was accomplished with a group of students within a single winter term.
> 
> Robert Zydenbos
> 
> 
> -- 
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
> Institute of Indology and Tibetology
> Department of Asian Studies
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU)
> Germany
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de  Thu Nov 26 16:10:09 2020
From: anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de (Anna Aurelia Esposito)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 17:10:09 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication: A Manual of Modern Kannada
In-Reply-To: <9222cf4e-41d4-203d-987f-811356fde610@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <20201126171009.Horde.ekhHo2ZFFSL4QfcUh6hoGhM@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de>

Dear Prof. Zydenbos,
thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience from years of  
teaching with us all! Finally there is a textbook for Kannada that is  
really recommendable and in addition easily accessible to all!
Best regards,
Anna Esposito

Zitat von Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> As of today, my new book A Manual of  Modern Kannada has become
> available as an Open Access publication at
> https://crossasia-books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/xasia/catalog/book/736 (The
> clickable button ?Buch herunterladen? means ?Download book?;
> ?Buch  kaufen? means ?Buy book?.)
>
> Indologists on this list: please  bear in mind that there is also a wealth
> of highly interesting  secondary literature in Kannada on classical
> Indological matters? (this  is a hint. Encouragement. Prodding). Kannada
> is a conservative language,  which has remained largely unchanged for the
> past several centuries.  Once one has learnt modern Kannada, it is not a
> big jump to Old Kannada  (yes, it is a jump, but not gigantic).
>
> (Warning: now comes a shameless  act of advertising ?)
>
> This learner?s manual of  standard modern written Kannada was written for
> use at the University of  Munich and tested in teaching practice with
> students over the past few  years, but it can also be used for
> self-learning. The focus is on the  written language (which is the only
> truly sensible thing to do, as is  explained on pp. x-xi), but there are
> occasional remarks about speech  variations in regional and colloquial
> usage. The grammar is covered in  19 lessons, followed by appendices about
> the phonemic system and script,  numerals, strong verbs, colloquialisms,
> and sandhi. Experience has  shown that the material in the book can be
> studied in the classroom with  4 hours of weekly teaching very easily
> within an academic year (30  weeks of teaching), and a few times this was
> accomplished with a group  of students within a single winter term.
>
> Robert Zydenbos
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????.  ??.
> ???????? ????????????
> Institute of Indology and Tibetology
> Department of Asian Studies
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU)
> Germany



**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universit?t W?rzburg
Lehrstuhl f?r Indologie
Philosophiegeb?ude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 W?rzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito
**********





From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 18:58:35 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 19:58:35 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] new publication: A Manual of Modern Kannada
In-Reply-To: <9222cf4e-41d4-203d-987f-811356fde610@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAP1=qs1DaCKYKPZpRCpdNPagKhvSTgZuVingdABrxqAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dag Robert,
Congratulations on the achievement and thanks for sharing,
Jan

On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 16:02, Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> As of today, my new book A Manual of Modern Kannada has become available
> as an Open Access publication at
> https://crossasia-books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/xasia/catalog/book/736 (The
> clickable button ?Buch herunterladen? means ?Download book?; ?Buch kaufen?
> means ?Buy book?.)
>
> Indologists on this list: please bear in mind that there is also a wealth
> of highly interesting secondary literature in Kannada on classical
> Indological matters? (this is a hint. Encouragement. Prodding). Kannada is
> a conservative language, which has remained largely unchanged for the past
> several centuries. Once one has learnt modern Kannada, it is not a big jump
> to Old Kannada (yes, it is a jump, but not gigantic).
>
> (Warning: now comes a shameless act of advertising ?)
>
> This learner?s manual of standard modern written Kannada was written for
> use at the University of Munich and tested in teaching practice with
> students over the past few years, but it can also be used for
> self-learning. The focus is on the written language (which is the only
> truly sensible thing to do, as is explained on pp. x-xi), but there are
> occasional remarks about speech variations in regional and colloquial
> usage. The grammar is covered in 19 lessons, followed by appendices about
> the phonemic system and script, numerals, strong verbs, colloquialisms, and
> sandhi. Experience has shown that the material in the book can be studied
> in the classroom with 4 hours of weekly teaching very easily within an
> academic year (30 weeks of teaching), and a few times this was accomplished
> with a group of students within a single winter term.
>
> Robert Zydenbos
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ????????????
> Institute of Indology and Tibetology
> Department of Asian Studies
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU)
> Germany
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 20:42:21 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 21:42:21 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] List of texts published in the journal The Pandit
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAbnxCqWwo25jOvYTeb31fSg5y_ig=JMogTeUMDXf7B2A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List Members,
Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit texts published around a century ago in
the journal The Pandit.
This was perhaps discussed earlier on this list but I could not find it in
the List Archive: too many hits for "pandit"...
With best regards,
Jan

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 21:29:19 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 22:29:19 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Henri Saint-Simon: a colloquium (also) relevant to Indian studies
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoA7bzjpp72=PEcRz0OHCw5vZGG2rfgi6Br5Yqv62Uu0jA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

Please find below the links for the international colloquium "Henri
Saint-Simon (1760-1825) et le rejet de la violence" organized at the
EPHE-PSL in the form of a webinar on November 28, 2020.

The question of non-violence in Saint-Simon and his disciples is studied in
particular in comparison with non-violence in Indian culture. Apart from
the presentation by Sudhir Chandra ("Since Gandhi: Growing Anxiety about
Non-Violence"), all contributions are in French.

https://www.ephe.psl.eu/agenda/henri-saint-simon-et-le-rejet-de-la-violence


https://memepeace.org/henri-saint-simon-1760-1825-et-le-rejet-de-la-violence-colloque-webinaire-le-28-novembre-2020/

With best regards,
Jan Houben

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 22:20:56 2020
From: timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com (Tim Felix Aufderheide)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 20 23:20:56 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] aluk-compounds
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4JuKXeqzJErPTEJOwj6_N6reQgPhrcPJJzt=t_FU53_dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ac980b80-23be-c365-481a-ba180280012a@gmail.com>

Dear list,

thanks to everybody who provided me with either text passages or literature!

Best

Tim


Am 25.11.2020 um 12:42 schrieb Jonathan Silk:
> perhaps only of minimal or indeed no relevance to your question:
>
> Dwivedi, R. C. 1981. ?Concept of Obscenity (a?l?lat?) in Sanskrit 
> Poetics.? Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 62.1/4: 
> 67?76.
> Hopkins, E. Washburn. 1925. ?Words of Defamation in Sanskrit Legal 
> Language.? Journal of the American Oriental Society 45: 39?50.
> Masson-Moussaieff, J. 1971. ?Obscenity in Sanskrit Literature.? Mahfil 
> 7.3/4: 197?207.
> Vigasin, Alexey A. 2016. ?Verbal Abuse and Obscenity in Ancient 
> India?, Vestnik drevnei istorii 76/1: 108?117. In Russian: ??????? ?. 
> ?. ????????? ? ??????????? ? ???????? ????? // ??????? ???????? ???????.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 12:32 PM Tim Felix Aufderheide via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>     Dear fellow list members,
>
>     does anybody happen to know of (an) example(s) from Sanskrit
>     literature (preferably Vedic or Epic) in which a genitival
>     /aluk/-compound is used as an insult? I mean in partcular the type
>     of /aluk/-compounds whose usage is described and licensed by P??.
>     6.3.21 and 6.3.22.
>
>     Hints to secondary literature on cursing and swear words in
>     Ancient India or on the aforementioned S?tras (and maybe also
>     Details on the P??inian treatment of /aluk/-compound in general)
>     would of course be highly appreciated as well.
>
>     Thanks in advance
>
>     Tim
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info>
>     (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> -- 
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu <http://www.OpenPhilology.eu>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk 
> <https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 12:24:13 2020
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 20 13:24:13 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] List of texts published in the journal The Pandit
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoAbnxCqWwo25jOvYTeb31fSg5y_ig=JMogTeUMDXf7B2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoD=7nUn2t+U5=6HWwFjx37PB-yMLeM+SdvNxoT8rmPq2g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List Members,
I thank Ashok Aklujkar for having kindly provided me with a scan of his
1966 article on The Pandit.
The article is written in Sanskrit and was published in the
Pune-based Sanskrit journal ??rad?.
I will try to attach it: it is not a very heavy file but perhaps it will
not come through...
In any case, I note the following:

sa?sk?ta-patrak?rit?-?at?bd?-vi?e?alekha? ?pa??ita?-patra-paricaya?
??rad? 1888-1966, pp. 7-13 (22 May 1966)
by Ashok Aklujkar

containing an
Index of The Pandit under the following headings :
prathit?? k?taya?
s?m?nyata? aprathit?? k?taya?
??gly? an?dit?? prathit?? k?taya?
??gly? an?dit?? s?m?nyata? aprathit?? k?taya?
sa?sk?tena an?dit?? k?taya?
pa??it??ke?u mudrit?? mahattvap?r??? nibandh??

With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 21:42, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear List Members,
> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit texts published around a century ago
> in the journal The Pandit.
> This was perhaps discussed earlier on this list but I could not find it in
> the List Archive: too many hits for "pandit"...
> With best regards,
> Jan
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Nov 27 14:22:36 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 20 06:22:36 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] List of texts published in the journal The Pandit
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoD=7nUn2t+U5=6HWwFjx37PB-yMLeM+SdvNxoT8rmPq2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcgEwdZLQOGMiQ5KJnUOCqiHDKq7CYYKTrUPg4dpxSaiA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Jan, for sharing Ashok's article.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 4:25 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear List Members,
> I thank Ashok Aklujkar for having kindly provided me with a scan of his
> 1966 article on The Pandit.
> The article is written in Sanskrit and was published in the
> Pune-based Sanskrit journal ??rad?.
> I will try to attach it: it is not a very heavy file but perhaps it will
> not come through...
> In any case, I note the following:
>
> sa?sk?ta-patrak?rit?-?at?bd?-vi?e?alekha? ?pa??ita?-patra-paricaya?
> ??rad? 1888-1966, pp. 7-13 (22 May 1966)
> by Ashok Aklujkar
>
> containing an
> Index of The Pandit under the following headings :
> prathit?? k?taya?
> s?m?nyata? aprathit?? k?taya?
> ??gly? an?dit?? prathit?? k?taya?
> ??gly? an?dit?? s?m?nyata? aprathit?? k?taya?
> sa?sk?tena an?dit?? k?taya?
> pa??it??ke?u mudrit?? mahattvap?r??? nibandh??
>
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 21:42, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear List Members,
>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit texts published around a century ago
>> in the journal The Pandit.
>> This was perhaps discussed earlier on this list but I could not find it
>> in the List Archive: too many hits for "pandit"...
>> With best regards,
>> Jan
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From racleach at googlemail.com  Sat Nov 28 09:53:38 2020
From: racleach at googlemail.com (Robert Leach)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 20 09:53:38 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Price paper on 'Eastern and Western philosophy'
Message-ID: <CAAyw6C=w8jAtdCsR7BN9JHFZ=K379PK7dyuogwiQ9vETYY0sQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I'm writing in the hope that someone may be able to provide me with a copy
of the paper 'The Present Relations Between Eastern and Western Philosophy'
by the Oxford philosopher H. H. Price. This paper was originally published
in *The Hibbert Journal* vol. 53 no.3 (1955) and it is this version I am
after, rather than the reprinted version in *Philosophy Today *(1957).

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

Robert


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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Sat Nov 28 22:01:19 2020
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 20 22:01:19 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
Message-ID: <BE26A465-6DCD-4C3F-BCD7-A4A2FDF243D9@austin.utexas.edu>

I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.

With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick Olivelle




From gpervushin at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 28 22:54:26 2020
From: gpervushin at yahoo.com (George Pervushin)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 20 22:54:26 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Price paper on 'Eastern and Western philosophy'
In-Reply-To: <CAAyw6C=w8jAtdCsR7BN9JHFZ=K379PK7dyuogwiQ9vETYY0sQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1467815579.1486850.1606604066792@mail.yahoo.com>

 Dear list members,
I will also be immensely grateful to get this article.

Best wishes,
George
    On Saturday, 28 November 2020, 10:54:32 am GMT+1, Robert Leach via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
 
 Dear list members,
I'm writing?in the hope that someone may be able to provide me with a copy of the paper 'The Present Relations Between Eastern and Western Philosophy' by the Oxford philosopher H. H. Price. This paper was originally published in The Hibbert Journal vol. 53 no.3 (1955) and it is this version I am after, rather than the reprinted version in Philosophy Today (1957).?
Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
Robert_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
  


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sun Nov 29 17:39:44 2020
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 18:39:44 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Price paper on 'Eastern and Western philosophy'
In-Reply-To: <1467815579.1486850.1606604066792@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bee31471-23ea-e081-2d0f-66722dfeab72@uni-muenchen.de>


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From jon.peterson at mail.utoronto.ca  Sun Nov 29 17:47:45 2020
From: jon.peterson at mail.utoronto.ca (Jonathan Peterson)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 17:47:45 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1606669203.23619.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <1ADBE1E8-F073-4600-B1E1-0913964565B7@mail.utoronto.ca>

Dear Patrick,

Marathi renderings of Bhart?hari?s three ?atakas and Jagann?tha's Ga?g?lahar? are attributed to the seventeenth-century poet V?mana Pa??it. There?s some debate among scholars of Marathi literature as to whether there were two V?manas, but either way, those texts were adapted into Marathi in the seventeenth century. The question of what constitutes a translation is worth asking in this case, as these 'translations? are refracted through V?mana?s unique understanding of bhakti and Advaita Ved?nta.

Best wishes,

Jonathan Peterson
University of Toronto





On Nov 29, 2020, at 9:00 AM, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> wrote:

Translations



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Nov 29 18:32:59 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 10:32:59 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <1ADBE1E8-F073-4600-B1E1-0913964565B7@mail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzczv3hdVdz+ZgsC7D-X_SzLdxdipt9SKwC4vXYaYcHQDg@mail.gmail.com>

There is also a Marathi Abhanga rendering of the Bhagavadg?t? attributed to
Tuk?r?m.  The 13th Century J??ne?var? is more of a Marathi verse commentary
on the Bhagavadg?t? rather than a translation.  The 19th century is the
real beginning of Marathi translations of Sanskrit and English works on a
large scale.  This coincides with the emergence of printing and publishing.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jonathan Peterson via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Patrick,
>
> Marathi renderings of Bhart?hari?s three ?atakas and Jagann?tha's
> Ga?g?lahar? are attributed to the seventeenth-century poet V?mana Pa??it.
> There?s some debate among scholars of Marathi literature as to whether
> there were two V?manas, but either way, those texts were adapted into
> Marathi in the seventeenth century. The question of what constitutes a
> translation is worth asking in this case, as these 'translations? are
> refracted through V?mana?s unique understanding of bhakti and Advaita
> Ved?nta.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Peterson
> University of Toronto
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2020, at 9:00 AM, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote:
>
> *Translations*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Nov 29 18:33:49 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 18:33:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <BE26A465-6DCD-4C3F-BCD7-A4A2FDF243D9@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB4396DFD998DCBE0B072EDF89A1F60@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Patrick,

Note 28 to my intro to the Prabodhacandrodaya, available here
https://www.academia.edu/27671250/Introduction_to_The_Rise_of_Wisdom_Moon_Prabodhacandrodaya_
references translations in a number of SA languages, of which Telugu is 15th c. and Tamil 17th.

all best,
Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 4:01 PM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations

I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.

With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick Olivelle
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From ericmgurevitch at gmail.com  Sun Nov 29 19:07:41 2020
From: ericmgurevitch at gmail.com (Eric Gurevitch)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 14:07:41 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzczv3hdVdz+ZgsC7D-X_SzLdxdipt9SKwC4vXYaYcHQDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGAFCHbctUe7MZG1Pcmq5AWaNyZQqpJ1R14GxZfS+U+BErPoMQ@mail.gmail.com>

 In the 11th century, a scholar named ?r?dhara selected passages from
Var?hamihira?s *Laghuj?takam*, his *B?hajj?takam*, and Kaly??avarman?s
*S?r?vali* and translated them into new Kannada to create a text titled the
*J?takatilaka?*. I suppose the question here is less what constitutes
?translation? and more what constitutes a ?text.? There are a number of
other authors from the period who translate long passages from Sanskrit
sciences, especially the works of Var?hamihira, into Kannada.



Elaine Fisher at Stanford is working on a project right now on 16th
and 17th-century
translations within the V?ra?aiva community. I am unsure if she has
published the materials yet, but she has many.


All the best,

Eric

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:34 PM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> There is also a Marathi Abhanga rendering of the Bhagavadg?t? attributed
> to Tuk?r?m.  The 13th Century J??ne?var? is more of a Marathi verse
> commentary on the Bhagavadg?t? rather than a translation.  The 19th century
> is the real beginning of Marathi translations of Sanskrit and English works
> on a large scale.  This coincides with the emergence of printing and
> publishing.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jonathan Peterson via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Patrick,
>>
>> Marathi renderings of Bhart?hari?s three ?atakas and Jagann?tha's
>> Ga?g?lahar? are attributed to the seventeenth-century poet V?mana Pa??it.
>> There?s some debate among scholars of Marathi literature as to whether
>> there were two V?manas, but either way, those texts were adapted into
>> Marathi in the seventeenth century. The question of what constitutes a
>> translation is worth asking in this case, as these 'translations? are
>> refracted through V?mana?s unique understanding of bhakti and Advaita
>> Ved?nta.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Jonathan Peterson
>> University of Toronto
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2020, at 9:00 AM, indology-request at list.indology.info wrote:
>>
>> *Translations*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

Eric Gurevitch

PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and

Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science

University of Chicago

gurevitch at uchicago.edu


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From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 29 19:39:10 2020
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (adheesh sathaye)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 11:39:10 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <BE26A465-6DCD-4C3F-BCD7-A4A2FDF243D9@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <E3AFDA90-04C6-4749-A51C-90D8E5CBC03B@gmail.com>

Dear Patrick, et al,

>From my experience, there are a number of premodern Old Gujarati and Nepali & Newari translations (often quite hybridized) of ?ivad?sa's Vet?lapa?cavi??ati. On the latter, I can recommend very much a new essay by Felix Otter,  ?The Robber, the Demon, the Girl, and Her Lover: An Episode from the Newari Version of the Veta?lapan?cavi?s?ati? in Carmen Brandt & Hans Harder (eds): Wege durchs Labyrinth: Festschrift zu Ehren von Rahul Peter Das. Heidelberg; Berlin: CrossAsia-eBooks, 2020. DOI: https://doi.org/10.11588/xabooks.642.

He has made it available on his Academia.edu <http://academia.edu/> page here: https://uni-marburg.academia.edu/FelixOtter <https://uni-marburg.academia.edu/FelixOtter>
(On the Nepali, there is Theodore Riccardi?s equally excellent book)

>From what I have seen, it is clear that, generally speaking, these are ?translations? of the Sanskrit VP, and not ?transcreations? in the terminology of Purushottam Lal (and AK Ramanujan). That is, they largely have a one-to-one textual correspondence with the Sanskrit (?ivad?sa) version.
I imagine there are other examples of such kath? anthologies that were translated rather than transcreated (Si?h?sana?, ?uka?, Pa?catantra, etc.).


With best wishes,
Adheesh



?
Adheesh Sathaye
University of British Columbia




> On Nov 28, 2020, at 14:01, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.
> 
> With thanks and best wishes,
> 
> Patrick Olivelle
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Nov 29 19:44:07 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 19:44:07 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <CAGAFCHbctUe7MZG1Pcmq5AWaNyZQqpJ1R14GxZfS+U+BErPoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB439600F65BEEF107C4B5FAF3A1F60@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

As I recall, too, there is a translation or paraphrase of the Ny?yaprave?a attr. Dign?ga that is found in the Manimekhalai.

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Eric Gurevitch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 1:07 PM
To: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
Cc: Jonathan Peterson <jon.peterson at mail.utoronto.ca>; indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translations


 In the 11th century, a scholar named ?r?dhara selected passages from Var?hamihira?s Laghuj?takam, his B?hajj?takam, and Kaly??avarman?s S?r?vali and translated them into new Kannada to create a text titled the J?takatilaka?. I suppose the question here is less what constitutes ?translation? and more what constitutes a ?text.? There are a number of other authors from the period who translate long passages from Sanskrit sciences, especially the works of Var?hamihira, into Kannada.



Elaine Fisher at Stanford is working on a project right now on 16th and 17th-century translations within the V?ra?aiva community. I am unsure if she has published the materials yet, but she has many.


All the best,

Eric

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:34 PM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
There is also a Marathi Abhanga rendering of the Bhagavadg?t? attributed to Tuk?r?m.  The 13th Century J??ne?var? is more of a Marathi verse commentary on the Bhagavadg?t? rather than a translation.  The 19th century is the real beginning of Marathi translations of Sanskrit and English works on a large scale.  This coincides with the emergence of printing and publishing.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jonathan Peterson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Patrick,

Marathi renderings of Bhart?hari?s three ?atakas and Jagann?tha's Ga?g?lahar? are attributed to the seventeenth-century poet V?mana Pa??it. There?s some debate among scholars of Marathi literature as to whether there were two V?manas, but either way, those texts were adapted into Marathi in the seventeenth century. The question of what constitutes a translation is worth asking in this case, as these 'translations? are refracted through V?mana?s unique understanding of bhakti and Advaita Ved?nta.

Best wishes,

Jonathan Peterson
University of Toronto





On Nov 29, 2020, at 9:00 AM, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> wrote:

Translations

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--

Eric Gurevitch

PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and

Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science

University of Chicago

gurevitch at uchicago.edu<mailto:gurevitch at uchicago.edu>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Sun Nov 29 20:07:19 2020
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 20:07:19 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB4396DFD998DCBE0B072EDF89A1F60@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <7eea746cc96b41278ecdf9192a5e6ddb@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

When it comes to translations into Tamil, Da??in's K?vy?dar?a should be mentioned. This text has also been translated into Kanna?a, Tibetan and probably even more languages.

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> namens Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: zondag 29 november 2020 19:33
Aan: Indology; Olivelle, J P
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translations

Dear Patrick,

Note 28 to my intro to the Prabodhacandrodaya, available here
https://www.academia.edu/27671250/Introduction_to_The_Rise_of_Wisdom_Moon_Prabodhacandrodaya_
references translations in a number of SA languages, of which Telugu is 15th c. and Tamil 17th.

all best,
Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 4:01 PM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations

I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.

With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick Olivelle
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
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From will at tending.to  Sun Nov 29 22:39:22 2020
From: will at tending.to (Prof. W Tuladhar-Douglas)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 22:39:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <BE26A465-6DCD-4C3F-BCD7-A4A2FDF243D9@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <3F4226C4-D549-416F-8626-42B1574A6DCC@tending.to>

In the Newar cultural area, there was a phase ending in the 15th century in which Newar pandits transmitted existing texts and composed new Sanskrit texts, overlapping a period beginning in the 14th century of intense translation into what we now call Classical Newari, both of their own Newar Sanskrit compositions, and of other texts. There are textual artefacts showing this period of translation, including the lexical manuscripts that were used to compile the Dictionary of Classical Newari - on this see the very useful website at http://newari.net/index.html <http://newari.net/index.html> which lets one study the various mss of the Amarako?a.

A good example of this is the Svaya?bh?pur??a, which has been studied by Brinkhaus and Rospatt. It was written in Sanskrit, expanded rapidly, and then acquired a Newari version; the Sanskrit was translated into Tibetan by the 8th Tai Situ (Yoshizaki has written on this) in the 18th century.

This process continued right up through the 20th century; a number of key texts that Newar Buddhist scholars had effectively refused to translate into Newari were finally translated, starting with the Lalitavistara around 1900 (by Ni??h?nanda ? I think Christoph Emmrich might be working on this just now).

Be well,

?WBTD. 
- - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- 
Will Tuladhar-Douglas 
Email: will at tending.to <mailto://will at tending.to> Blog: Tending to blether <https://tending.to/blether> 
Research Fellow, Hamburg University 
Situgyan Consulting Ltd. <https://situgyan.com/>


> On 28 Nov 2020, at 22:01, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.
> 
> With thanks and best wishes,
> 
> Patrick Olivelle
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Nov 29 22:48:39 2020
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 20 22:48:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <3F4226C4-D549-416F-8626-42B1574A6DCC@tending.to>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB439683DFAC39BCAD7A3BE664A1F60@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

If we're counting Tibetan as an "Indian language," the number of translations, of course, grows into the thousands....

If I'm not mistaken, Patrick's query had something more focused in mind.

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Prof. W Tuladhar-Douglas via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 4:39 PM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translations

In the Newar cultural area, there was a phase ending in the 15th century in which Newar pandits transmitted existing texts and composed new Sanskrit texts, overlapping a period beginning in the 14th century of intense translation into what we now call Classical Newari, both of their own Newar Sanskrit compositions, and of other texts. There are textual artefacts showing this period of translation, including the lexical manuscripts that were used to compile the Dictionary of Classical Newari - on this see the very useful website at http://newari.net/index.html which lets one study the various mss of the Amarako?a.

A good example of this is the Svaya?bh?pur??a, which has been studied by Brinkhaus and Rospatt. It was written in Sanskrit, expanded rapidly, and then acquired a Newari version; the Sanskrit was translated into Tibetan by the 8th Tai Situ (Yoshizaki has written on this) in the 18th century.

This process continued right up through the 20th century; a number of key texts that Newar Buddhist scholars had effectively refused to translate into Newari were finally translated, starting with the Lalitavistara around 1900 (by Ni??h?nanda ? I think Christoph Emmrich might be working on this just now).


Be well,

?WBTD.
- - -- --- ----- -------- -------------
Will Tuladhar-Douglas
Email: will at tending.to<mailto://will at tending.to> Blog: Tending to blether<https://tending.to/blether>
Research Fellow, Hamburg University
Situgyan Consulting Ltd.<https://situgyan.com>


On 28 Nov 2020, at 22:01, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.

With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick Olivelle
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From dshevchenko at unm.edu  Mon Nov 30 07:06:36 2020
From: dshevchenko at unm.edu (Dimitry Shevchenko)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 07:06:36 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <BE26A465-6DCD-4C3F-BCD7-A4A2FDF243D9@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CY4PR0701MB3634F2BFA4B76C4098890DD6BEF50@CY4PR0701MB3634.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Patrick,

???avaci??am is a 16th-century Tamil version of the Laghu-Yogav?si??ha. Ofer Peres from the Hebrew University has been working on this text.

Best regards,
Dimitry
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 10:01 PM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations

  [EXTERNAL]

I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.

With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick Olivelle
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 09:56:50 2020
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 15:26:50 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR0701MB3634F2BFA4B76C4098890DD6BEF50@CY4PR0701MB3634.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebB9Hu0nNqqm7j8cXcppmgJbqEmD9JqpwwxqG3kXY65Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Majority of the classical Telugu literary works from the beginning i.e.,
from the 11th century  upto the 16th century are translations  rather
transcreations from Sanskrit only.

Transcreations from Sanskrit  continued even 16th century onwards alongside
independent Telugu narrative poems. Majority of these  independent Telugu
narrative poems which started with Manucharitramu translated into English
by  Profs Velcheru Narayana Rao and David Shulman borrowed the stories from
the Puranic sources just the way the Sanskrit Kavyas which were
transcreated into Telugu borrowed. A few narrative poems like
Kalapurnodayamu translated by Profs Velcheru Narayana Rao and David Shulman
into English as  "The Sound of Kiss " had the story created independently.

As such, we have a very big number of transcreations from Sanskrit into
Telugu.



On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 12:37 PM Dimitry Shevchenko via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Patrick,
>
> *???avaci??am *is a 16th-century Tamil version of the *Laghu-Yogav?si??ha.
> *Ofer Peres from the Hebrew University has been working on this text.
>
> Best regards,
> Dimitry
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 28, 2020 10:01 PM
> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Translations
>
>   [EXTERNAL]
>
> I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations
> of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say
> pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted
> to get some information on them.
>
> With thanks and best wishes,
>
> Patrick Olivelle
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


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From frank.koehler at uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Nov 30 13:40:42 2020
From: frank.koehler at uni-tuebingen.de (Frank Koehler)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 14:40:42 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Price paper on 'Eastern and Western philosophy'
In-Reply-To: <bee31471-23ea-e081-2d0f-66722dfeab72@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <20201130144042.Horde.BIuREYPxFv7qfmoREZ9lZe7@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>

Dear all,

please find the article attached.

Best wishes,
Frank


Zitat von Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Me too!
>
> RZ
>
> George Pervushin via INDOLOGY wrote on 28.11.20 23:54:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> I will also be immensely grateful  to get this article.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> George
>>
>>                                                                  On
>> Saturday, 28 November 2020, 10:54:32 am GMT+1,  Robert Leach via
>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>[1] wrote:
>>
>> Dear list  members,
>>
>> I'm writing?in the hope that someone may be  able to provide me with a
>> copy of the paper 'The Present Relations  Between Eastern and Western
>> Philosophy' by the Oxford philosopher H. H.  Price. This paper was
>> originally published in /The Hibbert Journal/ vol. 53 no.3 (1955) and it
>> is this version I am after, rather than the  reprinted version in
>> /Philosophy Today /(1957).?
>>
>> Many  thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
>>
>> Robert
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:indology at list.indology.info



Dr. Frank K?hler
Eberhard-Karls-Universit?t T?bingen
Asien-Orient-Institut
Abteilung f?r Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft
Keplerstr. 2
72074 T?bingen

Tel: 07071/2978536
Email: frank.koehler at uni-tuebingen.de
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Nov 30 14:01:29 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 06:01:29 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Price paper on 'Eastern and Western philosophy'
In-Reply-To: <20201130144042.Horde.BIuREYPxFv7qfmoREZ9lZe7@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdygVSVja7dbegRw+AMoaWS77yH4kymUoM6n55SU3+RGA@mail.gmail.com>

A fascinating article.  Thanks for sharing.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 5:41 AM Frank Koehler via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> please find the article attached.
>
> Best wishes,
> Frank
>
>
> Zitat von Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>
> > Me too!
> >
> > RZ
> >
> > George Pervushin via INDOLOGY wrote on 28.11.20 23:54:
> >
> >> Dear list members,
> >>
> >> I will also be immensely grateful  to get this article.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> George
> >>
> >>                                                                  On
> >> Saturday, 28 November 2020, 10:54:32 am GMT+1,  Robert Leach via
> >> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>[1] wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear list  members,
> >>
> >> I'm writing in the hope that someone may be  able to provide me with a
> >> copy of the paper 'The Present Relations  Between Eastern and Western
> >> Philosophy' by the Oxford philosopher H. H.  Price. This paper was
> >> originally published in /The Hibbert Journal/ vol. 53 no.3 (1955) and it
> >> is this version I am after, rather than the  reprinted version in
> >> /Philosophy Today /(1957).
> >>
> >> Many  thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
> >>
> >> Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] mailto:indology at list.indology.info
>
>
>
> Dr. Frank K?hler
> Eberhard-Karls-Universit?t T?bingen
> Asien-Orient-Institut
> Abteilung f?r Indologie und Vergleichende Religionswissenschaft
> Keplerstr. 2
> 72074 T?bingen
>
> Tel: 07071/2978536
> Email: frank.koehler at uni-tuebingen.de
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From khecari at yandex.ru  Mon Nov 30 16:35:30 2020
From: khecari at yandex.ru (Evgeniya Desnitskaya)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 19:35:30 +0300
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ade=C5=9Ba_by_P._Thieme?=
Message-ID: <645021606753766@mail.yandex.ru>


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From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk  Mon Nov 30 17:08:06 2020
From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 17:08:06 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translations
In-Reply-To: <E3AFDA90-04C6-4749-A51C-90D8E5CBC03B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CWLP265MB264356FC9AC95A394F8DAC368EF50@CWLP265MB2643.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Dear Patrick,

On the earliest translations from Sanskrit to Newari in the 14th century you can also find information in my 2016 article "Towards a Cultural History of Nepal, 14th?17th century. A Nepalese Renaissance?" In Rivista degli studi orientali. Nuova serie. Supplementi, 51?66. Pisa: Fabrizio Serra Editore.

Best wishes,

Camillo


________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti

Information Analyst ? FAMOUS Project


Bodleian Libraries

The Weston Library

Broad Street, Oxford

OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>

Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>



GROW YOUR MIND

in Oxford University?s

Gardens, Libraries and Museums

www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

________________________________
From: adheesh sathaye <adheesh1 at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 7:39 PM
To: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translations

Dear Patrick, et al,

>From my experience, there are a number of premodern Old Gujarati and Nepali & Newari translations (often quite hybridized) of ?ivad?sa's Vet?lapa?cavi??ati. On the latter, I can recommend very much a new essay by Felix Otter,  ?The Robber, the Demon, the Girl, and Her Lover: An Episode from the Newari Version of the Veta?lapan?cavi?s?ati? in Carmen Brandt & Hans Harder (eds): Wege durchs Labyrinth: Festschrift zu Ehren von Rahul Peter Das. Heidelberg; Berlin: CrossAsia-eBooks, 2020. DOI: https://doi.org/10.11588/xabooks.642.

He has made it available on his Academia.edu<http://Academia.edu> page here: https://uni-marburg.academia.edu/FelixOtter
(On the Nepali, there is Theodore Riccardi?s equally excellent book)

>From what I have seen, it is clear that, generally speaking, these are ?translations? of the Sanskrit VP, and not ?transcreations? in the terminology of Purushottam Lal (and AK Ramanujan). That is, they largely have a one-to-one textual correspondence with the Sanskrit (?ivad?sa) version.
I imagine there are other examples of such kath? anthologies that were translated rather than transcreated (Si?h?sana?, ?uka?, Pa?catantra, etc.).


With best wishes,
Adheesh



?
Adheesh Sathaye
University of British Columbia




On Nov 28, 2020, at 14:01, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I have received a query from a scholar not on this list about translations of Sanskrit texts into other Indian languages in the medieval period, say pre- 17th century. If any of you know such translations, I?d be delighted to get some information on them.

With thanks and best wishes,

Patrick Olivelle
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Nov 30 17:41:38 2020
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 09:41:38 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Ade=C5=9Ba_by_P._Thieme?=
In-Reply-To: <645021606753766@mail.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdOQmFBGBiEu6qLyo53XL+F+ovKa9B_a1Jo=U0OMy=_Fw@mail.gmail.com>

Please see the attached pdf of the article by Thieme.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 8:36 AM Evgeniya Desnitskaya via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I am looking for the article "*Ade?a*" by Paul Thieme, published in *M?langes
> d?indianisme: ? la m?moire de Louis Renou*, 1968, (pp. 715?723).
> Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
>
> --
> Best,
> Evgeniya Desnitskaya
>
> Institute of Oriental Manuscripts,
> Russian Academy of Sciences
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From khecari at yandex.ru  Mon Nov 30 17:50:34 2020
From: khecari at yandex.ru (Evgeniya Desnitskaya)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 20 20:50:34 +0300
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Ade=C5=9Ba_by_P._Thieme?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdOQmFBGBiEu6qLyo53XL+F+ovKa9B_a1Jo=U0OMy=_Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <572961606758571@mail.yandex.ru>


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