From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Jan 2 02:01:54 2020 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 20 18:01:54 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] My verse on poetry Message-ID: My verse on poetry - ?????????? ????????????? ?? ??: ? ????????? ?????? ???????? ?? ???: ?? Like a cup of hot tea, poetry warms our mind. Let there be winter outside, a poet turns it into spring. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 04:17:37 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 09:47:37 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help to identify the work. Message-ID: Dear all In the book titled "Second book of Sanskrit" there are verses appear in couple of chapters, the author of the Second book of Sanskrit says that the verses are addressing to a King named Krishna. Could anyone identity the name of the work and author of the same. Page 4 ???????????? ???? ????? ????????? ? ????? ?????? ???????? ? ?????????? ???? ???????????? ???? ????????? etc Any help is highly appreciated Thanks and Regards KP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 04:20:57 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 09:50:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help to identify the work. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I could identify it is from Halayudha's Kavirahasya. But I wanted to know whether Halayudha's own work or he himself extracted from any other work. On Thu, Jan 2, 2020, 9:47 AM Krishnaprasad G wrote: > Dear all > > In the book titled "Second book of Sanskrit" there are verses appear in > couple of chapters, the author of the Second book of Sanskrit says that the > verses are addressing to a King named Krishna. Could anyone identity the > name of the work and author of the same. > > Page 4 > ???????????? ???? ????? ????????? ? > ????? ?????? ???????? ? ?????????? > ???? ???????????? ???? ????????? etc > > > Any help is highly appreciated > Thanks and Regards > KP > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markandeia at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 06:41:41 2020 From: markandeia at gmail.com (Nataliya Yanchevskaya) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 01:41:41 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Happy New Year! A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such texts! Many thanks and best wishes, Nataliya ----------- Nataliya Yanchevskaya Lecturer in Sanskrit PIIRS, Princeton University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpjain1903 at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 07:28:22 2020 From: rpjain1903 at gmail.com (Rajeev P. Jain) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 12:58:22 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Details about Prof. Karine Schomer Message-ID: <4D606393-C597-4024-85FD-B449EBEE7872@gmail.com> To the members I require the email and other details of Prof. Karine Schomer who was in University of Chicago long back. Sincerely Rajeev Jain 10 A Rajniwas Marg Civil Lines 'ANANDA'-villa # 7 Delhi-110054 (INDIA) (011)23983983 From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Thu Jan 2 09:50:01 2020 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 09:50:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics Message-ID: <74A19008-7ED1-47E1-84F0-AC1DA4F09939@btinternet.com> Can anyone recommend a good introduction to the history of mathematics in India, accessible to a mathematician with no knowledge of Sanskrit or other Indian languages? Thank you - Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jan 2 09:54:05 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 09:54:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics In-Reply-To: <74A19008-7ED1-47E1-84F0-AC1DA4F09939@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Hi Valerie, This has come up in recent discussions: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691120676/mathematics-in-india [https://pup-assets.imgix.net/onix/images/9780691120676.jpg?fit=fill&fill=solid&fill-color=ffffff&w=1200&h=630] Mathematics in India | Princeton University Press Based on extensive research in Sanskrit sources, Mathematics in India chronicles the development of mathematical techniques and texts in South Asia from antiquity to the early modern period. Kim Plofker reexamines the few facts about Indian mathematics that have become common knowledge ? such as the Indian origin of Arabic numerals ? and she sets them in a larger textual and cultural ... press.princeton.edu best for the new year, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 3:50 AM To: indology List List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics Can anyone recommend a good introduction to the history of mathematics in India, accessible to a mathematician with no knowledge of Sanskrit or other Indian languages? Thank you - Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jan 2 10:11:45 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 10:11:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nataliya, I do not know of much discussion of translation in Sanskrit, unless we take a very large view of what 'translation' might mean, in which case the great origin tale of the bRhatkathA (as given in the early chapters of the kathAsaritsAgara and elsewhere) would be a wonderful example. No doubt others on the list will have additional suggestions. For translation within the South Asian literary field more broadly, it may be worthwhile for your student to look at Sheldon Pollock's Literary Cultures in History. Unfortunately, 'translation' was not carefully indexed - there is only one entry, though there are in fact many more references to translation passim. (My own contribution includes several pages on the subject, not at all reflected in the index.) If one is considering Sanskrit as a source language, then there is a substantial literature in Chinese, Tibetan and Farsi dealing with technical, historical, and anecdotal aspects of translation from Sanskrit - but that is all a very big story. The articles on Tibetan and Persian in in Literary Cultures offer a start. good luck! Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 12:41 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? Dear Colleagues, Happy New Year! A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such texts! Many thanks and best wishes, Nataliya ----------- Nataliya Yanchevskaya Lecturer in Sanskrit PIIRS, Princeton University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 10:45:21 2020 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 16:15:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is discussion in regional language classical texts about translations from Sanskrit into those languages. On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 4:00 PM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Nataliya, > > I do not know of much discussion of translation in Sanskrit, unless we > take a very large view of what 'translation' might mean, in which case the > great origin tale of the bRhatkathA (as given in the early chapters of the > kathAsaritsAgara and elsewhere) would be a wonderful example. No doubt > others on the list will have additional suggestions. > > For translation within the South Asian literary field more broadly, it may > be worthwhile for your student to look at Sheldon Pollock's Literary > Cultures in History. Unfortunately, 'translation' was not carefully indexed > - there is only one entry, though there are in fact many more references to > translation passim. (My own contribution includes several pages on the > subject, not at all reflected in the index.) > > If one is considering Sanskrit as a source language, then there is a > substantial literature in Chinese, Tibetan and Farsi dealing with > technical, historical, and anecdotal aspects of translation from Sanskrit - > but that is all a very big story. The articles on Tibetan and Persian in in > Literary Cultures offer a start. > > good luck! > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Thursday, January 2, 2020 12:41 AM > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? > > Dear Colleagues, > Happy New Year! > A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and > translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, > in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? > Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such > texts! > Many thanks and best wishes, > Nataliya > ----------- > Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Lecturer in Sanskrit > PIIRS, Princeton University > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu Thu Jan 2 11:15:13 2020 From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 11:15:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Valerie, Its dated for sure, but Datta and Singh?s _The History of Hindu Mathematics: A Sourcebook_ is probably worth mentioning also. Both volumes are available at Archive.org: Part I https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.81882/page/n10 Part II https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.7758/page/n5 Best wishes, Toke > On Jan 2, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Hi Valerie, > > This has come up in recent discussions: > https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691120676/mathematics-in-india > > > Mathematics in India | Princeton University Press > Based on extensive research in Sanskrit sources, Mathematics in India chronicles the development of mathematical techniques and texts in South Asia from antiquity to the early modern period. Kim Plofker reexamines the few facts about Indian mathematics that have become common knowledge ? such as the Indian origin of Arabic numerals ? and she sets them in a larger textual and cultural ... > press.princeton.edu > best for the new year, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY > Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 3:50 AM > To: indology List List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics > > Can anyone recommend a good introduction to the history of mathematics in India, accessible to a mathematician with no knowledge of Sanskrit or other Indian languages? > > Thank you - > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Thu Jan 2 11:58:51 2020 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 12:58:51 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics In-Reply-To: <74A19008-7ED1-47E1-84F0-AC1DA4F09939@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <4a68148f25dde0a3a7d84ed76250e840@imapproxy.vub.ac.be> Dear Valerie, You will find, attached, a long article from the BnF (written, I think, by J?r?me Petit) about Indian science, with an important chapter on Indian mathematics. I also join a list of books and some articles that are not in the BnF references. I agree with Toke about the utility of Datta and Singh's books, it is with them, and with the help of Prof Guy Mazars, that I discovered - as a mathematician - the history of Indian maths (in the 80s ...). Of course, if your correspondant is especially interested by some particular aspects of Indian mathematics, I have many more references (hundreds of articles) at my (and his/her) disposal, and he/she can contact me directly. Best regards, J.M.Delire, Reader on Science et civilisation de l'Inde - Textes sanskrits (IHEB - University of Brussels) Professor of Mathematics and History of mathematics at the Haute Ecole de Bruxelles-Brabant Le 02.01.2020 10:50, Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > Can anyone recommend a good introduction to the history of mathematics > in India, accessible to a mathematician with no knowledge of Sanskrit > or other Indian languages? > > Thank you - > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: biblio_sciences_indiennes.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 348785 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SomemorereferencesaboutIndianmathematics.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 16927 bytes Desc: not available URL: From opfallon at yahoo.com Thu Jan 2 11:46:42 2020 From: opfallon at yahoo.com (Oliver Fallon) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 11:46:42 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSBCxIHhuYdhJ3MgQ2HhuYfhuI3Eq8WbYXRha2EgLyBDYeG5h+G4jcSra2HFm2F0YWth?= In-Reply-To: <1363103183.9109664.1577965602299.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1363103183.9109664.1577965602299@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Colleagues,Would anyone have a scan of the following: Bahur?, Gop?la-N?r?ya?a N. (ed.) (1968). Mah?k?vi-B??abha??a-viracita? Ca????atakam,Medap??e?vara-mah?r??a-Kumbhakar?a-pra??tay?, aj??takart?krtay? ??kay? ca sa?valitam.R?jasth?na Pur?tana Grantham?l?. Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute, Jodhpur. BA?N?A, & GIRI, K. (1986).?Can?d?i?s?atakam. Va?ra?n?asi?, Caukhambha? Oriyant?a?liya?. Candisataka of Banabhatta, ed. with Hindi translation and someexplanatory notes by Gosvami, Kapildev Giri,?Chowkhamba Oriyantaliya, Varanasi, 1983? With thanks,Oliver Fallon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nina.mirnig at googlemail.com Thu Jan 2 12:14:32 2020 From: nina.mirnig at googlemail.com (Nina Mirnig) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 13:14:32 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Publication: Tantric Communities in Context Message-ID: <32A51913-E621-4E3E-9470-C51C9C79BB46@googlemail.com> Dear colleagues, (apologies for cross-posting) Happy New Year! It is a pleasure to announce the publication of the collected volume Tantric Communities in Context, edited by Nina Mirnig, Marion Rastelli and Vincent Eltschinger. Please find below a table of contents. The book can be ordered at https://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/tantric-communities-context and will also be available for download in Open Access after a year. With best wishes, Nina Mirnig ??? Dr. Nina Mirnig MSt DPhil (Oxon) Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstrasse 11?13 A-1020 Vienna Austria Tel.: +43 1 51581 / 6411 Fax: +43 1 51581 / 6410 http://www.ikga.oeaw.ac.at/Mitarbeiter/Mirnig TABLE OF CONTENTS Preface ? vii Introduction ? ix ALEXIS SANDERSON: How public was ?aivism? ? 1 Tantric Identities SHAMAN HATLEY: Sisters and consorts, adepts and goddesses: Representations of women in the Brahmay?mala ? 49 CSABA KISS: The Bhasm??kura in ?aiva texts ? 83 ROBERT LEACH: Renegotiating ritual identities: Blurred boundaries between P??car?tra ritual communities in South India ? 107 KLAUS-DIETER MATHES: *Sahajavajra?s integration of Tantra into mainstream Buddhism: An analysis of his *Tattvada?aka??k? and *Sthitisam?sa ? 137 CHRISTIAN FERSTL: B??a?s literary representation of a South Indian ?aivite ? 171 Tantric Ritual Communities JUDIT T?RZS?K: Whose dharma? ?aiva and ??kta community rules and Dharma??stric prescriptions ? 205 ELLEN GOUGH: Tantric ritual components in the initiation of a Digambara Jain ? 233 P?TER-D?NIEL SZ?NT?: Minor Vajray?na texts V: The Ga?acakravidhi attributed to Ratn?kara??nti ? 275 RYUGEN TANEMURA: The recipient of the Tantric Buddhist funeral ? 315 Tantric Communities in the Public Sphere MARION RASTELLI: Narratives as a medium for appealing to the royal court: A look into the Ahirbudhnyasa?hit? ? 335 FRANCESCO BIANCHINI: In case of emergency: Addressing rulers in the Ahirbudhnyasa?hit? ? 363 DOMINIC GOODALL: Damanotsava: On love in spring on what J??na?ambhu wrote, and on the spread of public festivals into the Mantram?rga ? 385 GUDRUN B?HNEMANN: Hanum?n worship under the kings of the late Malla period in Nepal ? 425 Beyond Tantric Communities: the Interface with Lay Communities NINA MIRNIG: ?Rudras on Earth? on the eve of the Tantric Age: The ?ivadharma??stra and the making of ?aiva lay and initiatory communities ? 471 PETER BISSCHOP: Inclusivism revisited: The worship of other gods in the ?ivadharma??stra, the Skandapur??a, and the Ni?v?samukha ? 511 S.A.S. SARMA: M?t?tantra texts of South India with special reference to the worship of Rurujit in Kerala and to three different communities associated with this worship ? 539 GERGELY HIDAS: Further Mah?pratisar? fragments from Gilgit ? 571 Index ? 587 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 12:20:22 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 17:50:22 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) Message-ID: Dear all Dear all I am attaching a pdf of Rgveda with newly developed Vedic fonts. For only the first mantra I used double svara due to time constraints. Also to indicate the padapatha I have used a gap similar to Satwalekar's editions. Any changes required please let me know. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5co7XNB-nfZbHdSMkdtSVdaZjREUDY2anA2Yy1QNDBkYVFz Thanks all KP. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 12:21:29 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 17:51:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rigveda Samhita with New Vedic fonts Message-ID: Dear all I am attaching a pdf of Rgveda with newly developed Vedic fonts. For only the first mantra I used double svara due to time constraints. Also to indicate the padapatha I have used a gap similar to Satwalekar's editions. Any changes required please let me know. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5co7XNB-nfZbHdSMkdtSVdaZjREUDY2anA2Yy1QNDBkYVFz Thanks all KP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 15:09:06 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 10:09:06 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Benedictive/precative_=C4=81tmanepada_in_classical_sanskrit?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list members, I've gotten quite a few replies off-line to my question about the form *k?????a *which I've summarized below. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------- ??????? is indeed the paninian ????????? ????????? form of ?? ????. I have seen these forms appear from time to time in stotras, not elsewhere as far I recall. ??????? makes up the bulk of these occurrences. ?????????? showcases such forms a few times too. To add a few more references to your collection: 1. ????????????? (from ?????????, the ??? intensive of ???). Bhamaha quotes a verse with this to demonstrate the fault of using obscure forms. 2. ???????? seen in Utpaladeva's ??????????????? (?????? ??????????????.... ??????? ????????) 3. ??????? in the first verse of ?????????????? (..?????? ?? ??????? ?) in the version edited by F. Wilson. 4. ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ??????????????????????? from a stotra attributed to ????? 5. Stotra by Vedanta Deshika? "???????????????????????????????? ????? ?????? " 6. Pan?itaraja Jagannatha ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ? ------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------- Here are a few more occurrences of the particular form that prompted your query, k?????a. It seems to me not all that extremely rare; apart from the several attestations which you cited, it can also be found for instance in (apart from grammatical texts): 1) Bilvama?galastava vs. 1 (in the numbering of Wilson in her edition of 1973); the verse ends ... ma?gala? va? k?????a; 2) Ve?kat?dhvarin's famous Vi?vagu??dar?acamp? verse 39 (this is in the section about Ayodhy?), with the main sentence of the verse being k?p?rasa? ? k?????a sa ?????ak?t k?pa?ataikat?ne mayi||; 3) the Lalit?stavaratna, vs. 19, see e-text here: *http://arunambika.ru/shri_lalita_stava_ratnam.html * As for other ?tmanepada benedictive forms, note that the second person singular form from the same root, k?????h?s, occurs for instance in Bh?gavatapur??a 10.3.28 and in N?r?ya?abha??a's popular N?r?ya??ya 11.94.6. A few examples of forms from other roots in Buddhist texts are discussed in an article by David Reigle, https://www.academia.edu/6423804/The_Virtually_Unknown_Benedictive_Middle_in_Classical_Sanskrit_Two_Occurrences_in_the_Buddhist_Abhisamayalankara More can of course be found... Several of the examples that can be found are from k?vya, rather than tantra and pur??a. By the way, somewhat similarly, Whitney, for instance, says of the 'imperative in t?t' that it 'Later' (i.e. after Vedic) is very unusual', and that 'According to the native grammarians' it 'is to be used with a benedictive implication, but that 'No instance of such use appears to be quotable.' Of course quite many can be quoted, e.g. the sa?sphurat?t of Abhinavagupta's famous verse. We should or course bear in mind that scholars such as Whitney and MacDonell could not easily and quickly search a large corpus of texts, as we can. -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ we have m?????a from m? by Pan{1,3,61} and lavi????a from l? by Pan{3,4,116}. And allusions by David Reigle on 2 occurrences in Abhisamay?la?k?ra, ........ Gaayatrii dhiimahi precative m. Whitney?837b ved precative `fasse que je sois lib?r?' muk.siiya ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it is a benedictive ?tmanepada form. See Kielhorn (A Grammar of the Sanskrit Language, 2nd rev. ed., Bombay 1880, ? 382): sm?, 3. sg. sm?????a or smari????a; sa?sk?, sa?sk?????a (last example only in the German edition 1888). http://archive.org/details/cu31924023200862 According to Thumb-Hauschild (Handbuch des Sanskrit, 2. Teil: Formenlehre, 3. Aufl., Heidelberg 1959, ? 563), in Classical Sanskrit benedictive ?tmanepada forms are "even rarer" than the corresponding "rare" parasmaipada forms. See also Renou (Grammaire Sanscrite, 2nd ed., Paris 1961, ? 331: "Mais la formation est ancienne et des pr?catifs de type v?d. subsistent dans les S[?tras] (notamment ???kh[?yana] ?[rautas?tra] M?n[avag?hyas?tra]), en particulier au moyen" ("But the formation is ancient and there continue to be precatives of the Vedic type in the S[?tras] (in particular ???kh[?yana] ?[rautas?tra] M?n[avag?hyas?tra]), especially in the ?tmanepada"). . . . . If Macdonell was aware of the form in the Bh?gavatapur??a, he may have regarded it as a Vedicism or intended archaism. In classical Sanskrit such forms are extremely rare, if they occur at all. For some Pur??as and a certain type of Stotras this may be different. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Renou's Grammaire ?330 (p. 450) "pr?catif" deals with the form: "B. Au moyen (...). Le radical est au gu.na comme ? l'aoriste moy. en -(i).s-, sauf que les racines ani.t en .r- pr?sentent le degr? z?ro: k?????a " ----------------------------------- --------------------------------------- On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:27 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > First happy holidays to everyone. > > While looking at a stotra I came across the form *k?????a* which I was > told, and as far as I can see, is a benedictive ?tmanepada. Both Whitney > and Macdonell assert that the benedictine/precative ?tmanepada doesn't > exist in classical sanskrit. but on doing a quick internet search k?????a > appears multiple times in the literature including in the *Bh?gavata* > *-p**ur??a. * > *1) Can someone confirm that *k?????a is a benedictive ?tmanepada form. > 2) Are there other benedictive ?tmanepada forms in the classical > literature? > > The examples I found for are: > > > *1) **Bh?gavata**-p**ur??a* *5.10.24* > > tan me bhav?n nara-dev?bhim?na- > > madena tucch?k?ta-sattamasya > > *k?????a* maitr?-d??am ?rta-bandho > > yath? tare sad-avadhy?nam a?ha? > > > *2) mudira-madam ud?ram by Rupa Goswami * > > last line all verses > > http://kksongs.org/songs/m/mudiramadamudaram.html > > > *3) ?r??ivake??dip?d?ntavar?anastotram* > > bh?s? yasya trilok? lasati parilasatphenabindvar?av?nta- > > rvy?magnev?tigaurastulitasurasaridv?rip?rapras?ra? ? > > p?n?tm? dantabh?bhirbh??amahahahak?r?tibh?ma? sade???? > > pu???? tu??i? *k?????a* sphu?amiha bhavat?ma??ah?so'??am?rte? ? 12? > > > *4) kanakadh?r?stotram* > > i???vi?i??amatayo 'pi yay? day?rdrad???y? > > trivi??apapada? sulabha? labhante | > > d???a? prah???a-kamalodarad?ptiri???m > > pu??i? *k?????a* mama pu?karavi??ar?y?? || 8 || > > > *5) lalit?-stava-ratnam?l? verses 19 and 72* > > m?rutayojanad?re mahan?yastasya cottare bh?ge | > bhadra? *k?????a* ?a??ha? pr?k?ra? pa?calohadh?tumaya? || 19 || > > > vara?asya tasya m?rutayojanato vipulagopuradv?ra? | > s?lo n?n?ratnai? sa?gha?it??ga? *k?????a* madabh???am || 72 || > > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Jan 2 15:10:01 2020 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 07:10:01 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUmlndmVkYSBTYW1oaXRhIHdpdGggTmV3IFZlZGljIGZvbnRz?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Krishnaprasad Ji, Your fonts look great. I have a question about the marking for d?rgha-svarita. I have not seen such a separate marking for d?rgha-svarita in other editions of the R?gveda that I have. What is the source for such a separate marking? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguisticst University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 6:52 AM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan < b.rama.97 at gmail.com> wrote: > The font looks good. Congratulations on developing a great font. There is > a typo in the title - the g in Rgveda is missing. Line 14 should have > dIrgha svarita in bharanta. Line 15 should have dIrgha svarita in rAjanta. > > Ramakrishnan > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 7:17 AM Krishnaprasad G < > krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear all >> I am attaching a pdf of Rgveda with newly developed Vedic fonts. For only >> the first mantra I used double svara due to time constraints. Also to >> indicate the padapatha I have used a gap similar to Satwalekar's editions. >> Any changes required please let me know. >> >> Thanks all >> >> KP >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "???????????????????" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAODNnZhSYxDfUM5%3DXzoGfi8XedeFLTzohr3v28YBzQvP98aDgA%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAH8aEvs2DxB%3Dt2EY%3D6AFFbYnYVBUS87K199iMLQCGeOot9OQng%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 16:00:32 2020 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 17:00:32 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Benedictive/precative_=C4=81tmanepada_in_classical_sanskrit?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indeed, it is not rare at all. Here are some examples from a 15th century text from Kashmir authored by ?r?vara. In his *Jaina-Tara?gi??* he quotes his own cannon eulogy composed on the occasion of his public consecration of Sul??n Zayn?s brand-new artillery pieces, and also quotes a dialogue with benedictive usage which immediately preceded the preparations for the Battle of Malla?il? in the year 1452: 1) *kriy?t* (benedictive 3rd person singular ?*k?*) [?] *yantratantrai?* *sthir?? prati??h?? kriy?t sa Maya? *|| 1.1.75cd || ?Would that he [as another] Maya consolidates [his] superiority with [the help of these] cannon formations. 2) *st?t* (?*as* + ?*t?t*, 3rd person singular imperative termination, applied however in the sense of a benediction [of cannons]) *kalpa? st?d yantrabh???am idam *|| 1.1.79d || ?May this cannon last an aeon!? 3) *kriy??* (benedictive 2nd person singular ?*k?*) *tvam ev?ka??aka? r?jya? kriy? dharmakriy? bhajan |* *vairi?o vimukh? y?ntu ra?e labdhapar?bhav??* || 1.1.113 || ?May you alone, pursuing lawful acts, rule a kingdom free of enemies! May [your] enemies suffer defeat in the encounter [and] take to flight, with their faces averted!? Regards, WS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 18:57:57 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 00:27:57 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLXgpL/gpLbgpY3gpLXgpLLgpYvgpJrgpKjgpJXgpYvgpLYgb2Yg4KS24KWN4KSw4KWA4KSn4KSw4KS44KWH4KSo4KS+4KSa4KS+4KSw4KWN4KSv?= Message-ID: Dear Scholars, Happy new year. It is my pleasure to present to you the following lexicon in digital format: Vi?valocanako?a of ?r?dharasen?c?rya. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/vishvalochana_shridharasena/orig/vishvalochana.txt Credits are in metadata section. Your feedback and corrections are welcome at https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/issues . -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 23:01:01 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 20 18:01:01 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUmlndmVkYSBTYW1oaXRhIHdpdGggTmV3IFZlZGljIGZvbnRz?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also the d?rgha-svarita is used in chanting books of the Rudram but on looking at a few different editions of the taitir?ya-sa?hit? (Sastri and Mahadeva, Sntakke and Dharmadhikari, and Satvalekar, as far as I can see d?rgha-svarita isn't used in these editions (most of these are multi-volume editions so its possible its used in other volumes than those I looked at). Does anyone know of any editions of the taitir?ya-sa?hit? where d?rgha-svarita is used? Thanks, Harry Spier On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 10:11 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Krishnaprasad Ji, > > Your fonts look great. I have a question about the marking for > d?rgha-svarita. I have not seen such a separate marking for d?rgha-svarita > in other editions of the R?gveda that I have. What is the source for such > a separate marking? > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguisticst > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 6:52 AM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan < > b.rama.97 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> The font looks good. Congratulations on developing a great font. There is >> a typo in the title - the g in Rgveda is missing. Line 14 should have >> dIrgha svarita in bharanta. Line 15 should have dIrgha svarita in rAjanta. >> >> Ramakrishnan >> >> On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 7:17 AM Krishnaprasad G < >> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear all >>> I am attaching a pdf of Rgveda with newly developed Vedic fonts. For >>> only the first mantra I used double svara due to time constraints. Also to >>> indicate the padapatha I have used a gap similar to Satwalekar's editions. >>> Any changes required please let me know. >>> >>> Thanks all >>> >>> KP >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "???????????????????" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAODNnZhSYxDfUM5%3DXzoGfi8XedeFLTzohr3v28YBzQvP98aDgA%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "???????????????????" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAH8aEvs2DxB%3Dt2EY%3D6AFFbYnYVBUS87K199iMLQCGeOot9OQng%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markandeia at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 06:46:50 2020 From: markandeia at gmail.com (Nataliya Yanchevskaya) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 01:46:50 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, Thank you very much for your responses on- and off-list! It seems that we indeed don't have much Sanskrit material on the topic but at least now my student has something to start with. If by any chance something else comes to mind, please do let me know. Thanks again, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:11 AM Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear Nataliya, > > I do not know of much discussion of translation in Sanskrit, unless we > take a very large view of what 'translation' might mean, in which case the > great origin tale of the bRhatkathA (as given in the early chapters of the > kathAsaritsAgara and elsewhere) would be a wonderful example. No doubt > others on the list will have additional suggestions. > > For translation within the South Asian literary field more broadly, it may > be worthwhile for your student to look at Sheldon Pollock's Literary > Cultures in History. Unfortunately, 'translation' was not carefully indexed > - there is only one entry, though there are in fact many more references to > translation passim. (My own contribution includes several pages on the > subject, not at all reflected in the index.) > > If one is considering Sanskrit as a source language, then there is a > substantial literature in Chinese, Tibetan and Farsi dealing with > technical, historical, and anecdotal aspects of translation from Sanskrit - > but that is all a very big story. The articles on Tibetan and Persian in in > Literary Cultures offer a start. > > good luck! > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Thursday, January 2, 2020 12:41 AM > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? > > Dear Colleagues, > Happy New Year! > A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and > translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, > in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? > Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such > texts! > Many thanks and best wishes, > Nataliya > ----------- > Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Lecturer in Sanskrit > PIIRS, Princeton University > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Jan 3 09:01:51 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 09:01:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nataliya, It would be perhaps of interest to the list if you would prepare a little bibliography of the suggestions you did receive, if it is not too much trouble to do so. kind regards, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 12:46 AM Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? Dear All, Thank you very much for your responses on- and off-list! It seems that we indeed don't have much Sanskrit material on the topic but at least now my student has something to start with. If by any chance something else comes to mind, please do let me know. Thanks again, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:11 AM Matthew Kapstein > wrote: Dear Nataliya, I do not know of much discussion of translation in Sanskrit, unless we take a very large view of what 'translation' might mean, in which case the great origin tale of the bRhatkathA (as given in the early chapters of the kathAsaritsAgara and elsewhere) would be a wonderful example. No doubt others on the list will have additional suggestions. For translation within the South Asian literary field more broadly, it may be worthwhile for your student to look at Sheldon Pollock's Literary Cultures in History. Unfortunately, 'translation' was not carefully indexed - there is only one entry, though there are in fact many more references to translation passim. (My own contribution includes several pages on the subject, not at all reflected in the index.) If one is considering Sanskrit as a source language, then there is a substantial literature in Chinese, Tibetan and Farsi dealing with technical, historical, and anecdotal aspects of translation from Sanskrit - but that is all a very big story. The articles on Tibetan and Persian in in Literary Cultures offer a start. good luck! Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY > Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 12:41 AM To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? Dear Colleagues, Happy New Year! A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such texts! Many thanks and best wishes, Nataliya ----------- Nataliya Yanchevskaya Lecturer in Sanskrit PIIRS, Princeton University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Jan 3 13:36:09 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 13:36:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] article search Message-ID: New year's greetings to my Indologist colleagues! Perhaps someone can help me to obtain a scan of this short article: LALOU, M. Notes ? propos d'une amulette de Touen-houang, litanies de Tara et la Sit?tapatr?dh?rani, dans M?langes chinois et bouddhiques, IV, 1936, pp. 135-149. with thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Fri Jan 3 16:14:10 2020 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 16:14:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A piece of insolence Message-ID: <631D9FE2-CBC6-48E7-9C61-607D527A10DF@uclouvain.be> Dear list, in reading the auto-biography of the Kerala social reformer V.T. Bhattathiripad (1896-1982) born in a Nambudiri brahmin family (My Tears, my Dreams - Kanneerum Kinaavum, New Delhi: Oxford UP, 2013, translated from the Malayalam), sprinkled with Sanskrit verses (from the author's memory) in approximative transliteration (unfortunately I have not yet the original, with correct Sanskrit, version), I come across the following ?loka (p. 27, corrected): daiv?dh?na? jagat sarva? mantr?dh?na? tu daivatam | tan mantra? br?hma??dh?na? br?hma?o mama daivatam || with the author's comment "I don't know which idiot made up this verse in Sanskrit". >From a first search for, I found the same verse in S?ya?a's commentary on the Va??abr?hma?a (ed. A.C. Burnell, Mangalore, 1873), p. 2 of the bh??ya https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_m0ujDETV2QkC/page/n53 with the variant in d "nama [sic] devat?" and the note by Burnell: "I cannot identify this piece of insolence. It is always in the mouths of S. Indian Brahmans." The verse is also to be found in (the same) S?ya?a's Subh??itasudh?nidhi (crit. ed. K. Krishnamooorthy, Dharwar, 1968, p. 22, 5.5, with the variant in d "daivata? mahat": https://archive.org/details/21subhashitasudhanidhiofsayanacarya_201908/page/n25 ), which itself relies on the earlier (13th-14th c.?) South-Indian anthology S?ktiratnah?ra (ed. K. Sambasiva Sastri, TSS 141, 1938, p. 6, 5.5, with the same variant in d "daivata? mahat": https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284105/page/n21 - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.493619/page/n27 ) (unfortunately, the MSS has not reached the letter d). Would somebody be aware of other, and especially earlier, occurrences in Sanskrit literature of this "traditional" verse (e.g. here quoted in a Tamil brahmins forum: https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/threads/temple-renovations.27311/ - note that the last p?da "br?hma?o mama daivatam" = also Vi??udharma 52.20 ed. Gruenendahl on GRETIL). Thank you for any additional information, With best wishes, Christophe ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 16:26:02 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 21:56:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Requests for scanned lexica - 1 Message-ID: Respected Scholars, If any one of you have access to any of the following lexica in scanned format / possibility of obtaining a scanned copy, kindly forward it to me please. 1. Anek?rthadhvanima?jar? of Mah?k?apa?aka 2. Dhara?iko?a or Anek?rthas?ra of Dhara?id?sa 3. Pary?ya?abdaratna of Dhana?jaya 4. ?abdabhedaprak??a of Mahe?vara 5. Bh?riprayoga of Padman?bhadatta 6. ?abdaratn?kara of Mah?pa 7. ?abdaratn?kara of V?manabha??a B??a 8. ??rad?y?khyan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri 9. Anek?rthan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri 10. ?abd?nek?rtha of Har?ak?rtis?ri -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 21:37:21 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 14:37:21 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics In-Reply-To: <74A19008-7ED1-47E1-84F0-AC1DA4F09939@btinternet.com> Message-ID: For a reader such as you mention, it's hard to beat Kim Plofker's *Mathematics in India .* -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 21:46:54 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 14:46:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: PS I reviewed Kim's book a few years back. Attached. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2014JRASreviewofPlofker.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 211824 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Fri Jan 3 22:12:53 2020 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 22:12:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian mathematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <483DF195-BBC5-4B74-A6C4-28C4F2714DC7@btinternet.com> Dear Colleagues Thank you all for your helpful replies on the subject of Indian Mathematics. I have passed on the recommendations, links and pdf files to my friend. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 3 Jan 2020, at 21:37, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > For a reader such as you mention, it's hard to beat Kim Plofker's Mathematics in India . > > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, > Department of History and Classics , > University of Alberta, Canada. > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 22:13:18 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 15:13:18 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nataliya, I recently wrote some remarks on this subject in another context. I've extracted and lightly edited them here. (Attached) Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 23:42, Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Happy New Year! > A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and > translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, > in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? > Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such > texts! > Many thanks and best wishes, > Nataliya > ----------- > Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Lecturer in Sanskrit > PIIRS, Princeton University > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: On_translation.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 51822 bytes Desc: not available URL: From saf at safarmer.com Fri Jan 3 23:26:31 2020 From: saf at safarmer.com (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 20 15:26:31 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nataliya Yanchevskaya writea: > A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, in Sanskrit ? about translators. Hi Natasha, On translator poems, jokes, etc.: When struggling for a decade translating an outrageously obscure medieval (Latin) text, I always wondered if there were something in Sanskrit (or Chinese, etc.) that could match the poetic efficiency of the classic Italian ?Traduttore, traditore!? I never found one, but I?d assume sentiments like this are linguistic universals of sorts. :) If anyone knows anything similar in Sanskri, I?d assume he/she would be on the Indology List. Steve Steve Farmer The Systems Biology Group Palo Alto, CA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Sat Jan 4 08:42:14 2020 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 20 08:42:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nataliya Has anyone mentioned mentioned the Buddhist tale, based on mistranslation between Middle Indian languages and/or Sanskrit, retold by John Brough, G?ndh?r? Dharmapada, pp. 45-6? It hinges on a misunderstanding of a Middle Indian form from the dvandva udaya-vyaya, ?arising and passing away?, as being from a tatpuru?a *udaka-baka, ?heron of the water?. "This curious tale concerns the last days of Ananda, and tells how he chanced to overhear a certain monk reciting a Dharmapada-verse in the following manner (according to the Chinese versions): If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see a water-heron, it were better that he live only for one day, and see a water-heron. ?My son?, said ?nanda, 'the Buddha did not say this. What he said was: If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see the principle of coming into existence and passing away, it were better . . . (and so forth). The monk thereupon reported the matter to his teacher, who replied, ??nanda is an old fool. Go on reciting as before?. On hearing once more the same faulty recitation, ?nanda realized that it was futile to attempt to convince the monk of the error, since ail his seniors, to whom he might have appealed, had already entered Nirv??a. Being thus unable to do anything further to protect the Buddha?s words from corruption, he considered that there was no reason to delay his own Nirv??a? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 3 Jan 2020, at 22:13, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Nataliya, > > I recently wrote some remarks on this subject in another context. I've extracted and lightly edited them here. (Attached) > > Best, > Dominik > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, > Department of History and Classics , > University of Alberta, Canada. > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 23:42, Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Happy New Year! > A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such texts! > Many thanks and best wishes, > Nataliya > ----------- > Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Lecturer in Sanskrit > PIIRS, Princeton University > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 03:45:22 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 20 22:45:22 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Title_of_argal=C4=81stotram?= Message-ID: Dear list members, The title of a popular hymn to ca??ik? is argal?stotram. But I can find no explanation of the relevence of this as a title to a hymn to the goddess ca??ik?. Can anyone shed any light on this. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nakeerthi at gmail.com Sun Jan 5 17:35:12 2020 From: nakeerthi at gmail.com (naresh keerthi) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 20 19:35:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? Message-ID: Dear Prof Nataliya Yanchevskaya, *A propos* your recent mail on texts on translation in Sanskrit, here is some information that may be relevant. The term ?*anuv**?**da*? currently used in the Indian languages for translation, had a wider remit in ??stra jargon, and was use for scholarly paraphrase or citation, and the denotation of translation for ?*anuv**?* *da*? is a semantic extension of this idea of paraphrase. Prof Radhavallabh Tripathi [currently at the Bhandarkar Institute, Pune]has recently written a treatise on the expanded notion of ?anuv?da? covering paraphrase, citation as well as translation. His book is in the sutra-bh??ya style, with an auto-commentary, as well as auxiliary ?parikara-?loka-s?. I had occasion to see a partial draft of the book. You may contact Prof Tripathi if his book is of interest. Drop me a personal mail if you need his contact details. I noticed that other members of the list had pointed out a few papers that reflect upon translation *from* Sanskrit. I add some more to that list. Damrosch, D., 2008. What could a message mean to a cloud? Kalidasa travels West. *Translation Studies*, *1*(1), pp.41-54. Gopinathan, G., 2000. Ancient Indian theories of translation. *Beyond the Western tradition*, pp.165-173. Nelson, B., 2011. Beyond free and literal: Translating a Buddhist text (Bodhicaryavatarapanjika) from Sanskrit. *Journal of the Oriental Society of Australia, The*, *43*, p.83. O'Flaherty, W.D., 1971. A New Approach to Sanskrit Translation. *Mahfil*, *7*(3/4), pp.129-141. Ramanujan, A.K., 1991. Three hundred Ramayanas: Five examples and three thoughts on translation. *Many Ramayanas: The diversity of a narrative tradition in South Asia*, pp.22-49. Best, Naresh Keerthi Hebrew University, Jerusalem > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Thursday, January 2, 2020 12:41 AM > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? > > Dear Colleagues, > Happy New Year! > A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and > translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, > in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? > Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such > texts! > Many thanks and best wishes, > Nataliya > ----------- > Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Lecturer in Sanskrit > PIIRS, Princeton University > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Peter.Flugel at soas.ac.uk Mon Jan 6 08:53:22 2020 From: Peter.Flugel at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 08:53:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Motilal Banarsidass Message-ID: This may be of general interest. In Delhi I inquired about the new organisational structure of the above mentioned publishing house. I received the following answer{ The originally joint family run company recently peacefully segmented in four new independent companies: Companies Motilal Banarsidass International MLBD Books International Address 41-UA Bungalow Road (Backside), Jawahar Nagar, Delhi-110007 (India) Contact Persons Jainendra Prakash Jain Abhishek Jain Contact Details mlbdbook at gmail.com ajmlbd76 at gmail.com ??????????????????? Companies Motilal Banarsidass Publishing House Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Address A-44, Naraina Industrial Area, Phase-1, New Delhi-110028 (India) Contact Persons Rajendra Prakash Jain Varun Jain Contact Details mlbd at mlbd.in ?????????????????????? Companies Motilal Banarsidass Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt Ltd Address 41-UA Bungalow Road (Frontside Showroom), Jawahar Nagar, Delhi-110007 (India) Contact Persons Ravindra Prakash Jain Contact Details mlbd at mlbd.co.in ??????????????????????? Companies Motilal Banarsidass Publications New Age Books Address 93, Shyam Lal Marg, Daryaganj, New Delhi-110002 (India) Contact Persons Rajeev Prakash Jain Pranav Jain Contact Details mlbd at mlbd.com mlbdbooks at gmail.com mlbdnab at gmail.com www.mlbd.com +91-8800666080 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Mon Jan 6 10:27:15 2020 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 10:27:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Motilal Banarsidass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1857773586.4726986.1578306435340@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for this information. When I spoke to Rajendra Prakash Jain a short while ago he said that they are still sorting out who will do what. I expect there may be natural attrition probably some specialization but it may take some time to settle out. If you have a past relationship you're happy with, then you can probably go with that for now. They are still close family and most of them live right next to each other. Best, Dean On Monday, January 6, 2020, 2:23:59 PM GMT+5:30, Peter Flugel via INDOLOGY wrote: This may be of general interest. In Delhi I inquired about the new organisational structure of the above mentioned publishing house. I received the following answer{ The originally joint family run company recently peacefully?segmented in four new independent companies: CompaniesMotilal Banarsidass International MLBD Books International Address41-UA Bungalow Road (Backside), Jawahar Nagar, Delhi-110007 (India) Contact PersonsJainendra Prakash JainAbhishek Jain Contact Detailsmlbdbook at gmail.comajmlbd76@gmail.com ??????????????????? CompaniesMotilal Banarsidass Publishing HouseMotilal Banarsidass Publishers AddressA-44, Naraina Industrial Area, Phase-1, New Delhi-110028 (India) Contact PersonsRajendra Prakash JainVarun Jain Contact Detailsmlbd at mlbd.in ?????????????????????? CompaniesMotilal BanarsidassMotilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt Ltd Address41-UA Bungalow Road (Frontside Showroom), Jawahar Nagar, Delhi-110007 (India) Contact PersonsRavindra Prakash Jain Contact Detailsmlbd at mlbd.co.in ??????????????????????? CompaniesMotilal Banarsidass PublicationsNew Age Books Address93, Shyam Lal Marg, Daryaganj, New Delhi-110002 (India) Contact PersonsRajeev Prakash JainPranav Jain Contact Detailsmlbd at mlbd.commlbdbooks@gmail.commlbdnab at gmail.comwww.mlbd.com+91-8800666080 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Jan 6 15:07:25 2020 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 15:07:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A piece of insolence In-Reply-To: <631D9FE2-CBC6-48E7-9C61-607D527A10DF@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <76136BFA-A9BF-4409-B3C3-363F512930D3@uclouvain.be> Many thanks to Suganya Anandakichenin for providing me with noteworthy additional occurrences of the stanza: ? at the beginning of the Ma?iprav?la work M?nikkam?lai of Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai (ca 13th c.), with the variant in d "tasm?d br?hma?a-daivatam" and where the word br?hma?a is understood as a synonym of ?c?rya. ? in Ved?nta De?ika's commentary (T?tparyacandrik?) on R?m?nuja?s G?t?bh??ya 18.15: tath? daiv?dh?na? jagat sarva? mantr?dh?na? tu daivatam | tan mantra? br?hma??dh?na? tasm?d vipr? hi daivatam || (note again the variant in d) iti a quotation for which the editor gives in footnote the reference to Vihagendrasa?hit? 22.15. I have no access to the latter text for checking the version of the stanza (see Vihagendrasam?hita? [Vihake?ntira samhita?; cutarcan?a mantra ca?stram], ed. A?. Vi?rara?kavan [A. Veeraraghavan], Tanjore Sarasvati Mahal Series [Tan?ca?vu?r Caracuvati Maka?l vel?iyi?t?t?u] no. 465, 2005). However, Veda?nta Des?ika mentions a sam?hita? with this title in his Pa?n?cara?traraks?a? (ed. D. Aiyangar and T. Venugopalacharya, Adyar Library Series no. 36, p. 23; cf. Gonda, Medieval Religious Literature in Sanskrit, A History of Indian Literature 2/1, 1977, p. 106) [I owe this latter reference to Ewa De?bicka-Borek]. So, even if the Vihagendra- is not an early p??car?tra sa?hit? (not mentioned in Schrader's or Matsubara's books; I have not Smith's ones at hand), like Periyav?cc?? Pi??ai it should precede Ved?nta De?ika by at the least more than one hundred years. So these sources point to the 12th century ?r?vai??ava milieu for a possible origin of the stanza. Best wishes, Christophe Le 3 janv. 2020 ? 17:14, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear list, in reading the auto-biography of the Kerala social reformer V.T. Bhattathiripad (1896-1982) born in a Nambudiri brahmin family (My Tears, my Dreams - Kanneerum Kinaavum, New Delhi: Oxford UP, 2013, translated from the Malayalam), sprinkled with Sanskrit verses (from the author's memory) in approximative transliteration (unfortunately I have not yet the original, with correct Sanskrit, version), I come across the following ?loka (p. 27, corrected): daiv?dh?na? jagat sarva? mantr?dh?na? tu daivatam | tan mantra? br?hma??dh?na? br?hma?o mama daivatam || with the author's comment "I don't know which idiot made up this verse in Sanskrit". >From a first search for, I found the same verse in S?ya?a's commentary on the Va??abr?hma?a (ed. A.C. Burnell, Mangalore, 1873), p. 2 of the bh??ya https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_m0ujDETV2QkC/page/n53 with the variant in d "nama [sic] devat?" and the note by Burnell: "I cannot identify this piece of insolence. It is always in the mouths of S. Indian Brahmans." The verse is also to be found in (the same) S?ya?a's Subh??itasudh?nidhi (crit. ed. K. Krishnamooorthy, Dharwar, 1968, p. 22, 5.5, with the variant in d "daivata? mahat": https://archive.org/details/21subhashitasudhanidhiofsayanacarya_201908/page/n25 ), which itself relies on the earlier (13th-14th c.?) South-Indian anthology S?ktiratnah?ra (ed. K. Sambasiva Sastri, TSS 141, 1938, p. 6, 5.5, with the same variant in d "daivata? mahat": https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284105/page/n21 - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.493619/page/n27 ) (unfortunately, the MSS has not reached the letter d). Would somebody be aware of other, and especially earlier, occurrences in Sanskrit literature of this "traditional" verse (e.g. here quoted in a Tamil brahmins forum: https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/threads/temple-renovations.27311/ - note that the last p?da "br?hma?o mama daivatam" = also Vi??udharma 52.20 ed. Gruenendahl on GRETIL). Thank you for any additional information, With best wishes, Christophe ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7C97a7893615ce4e2bb61c08d79068138d%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637136648985227421&sdata=ycmaSSyAVL7tfBi%2BozPyP8WNgIbddmwtmAPGwLn2sTg%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith.caley at gmail.com Mon Jan 6 17:29:33 2020 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 12:29:33 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations Message-ID: Dear Nataliya, While not commentarial on translation *per s?, *I have an article that has just come out in the Wiley-Blackwell's *Companion to World Literature* in which I try to use the aesthetic sensibilities of the Rgveda to imagine what it would consider essential to a graceful translation itself (hint: the enigma of the imagery has to remain, well... enigmatic). It is aimed at a comparative lit audience rather than a strictly philological one, but if you would like a copy, I am happy to send you a PDF. Best, Caley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Jan 6 17:35:32 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 17:35:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One issue that seems not yet to have been raised in this thread is that of chAyA, which is of course a type of translation from Prakrit to Sanskrit. I would be most interested if anyone knows of any reflections on or theoretization of (or jokes about!) chAyA within the Indian sources. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Caley Smith via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 11:29 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations Dear Nataliya, While not commentarial on translation per s?, I have an article that has just come out in the Wiley-Blackwell's Companion to World Literature in which I try to use the aesthetic sensibilities of the Rgveda to imagine what it would consider essential to a graceful translation itself (hint: the enigma of the imagery has to remain, well... enigmatic). It is aimed at a comparative lit audience rather than a strictly philological one, but if you would like a copy, I am happy to send you a PDF. Best, Caley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericmgurevitch at gmail.com Mon Jan 6 18:18:17 2020 From: ericmgurevitch at gmail.com (Eric Gurevitch) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 23:48:17 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In addition to the articles already mentioned, the following recent (except for one) essays and books all contain useful analyses on how translation was conceptualized both to and from Sanskrit ? although not in free-standing texts. Cort, John E., ?Making It Vernacular in Agra: The Practice of Translation by Seventeenth-Century Jains?, in *Tellings and Texts*, ed. by Francesca Orsini and Katherine Butler Schofield, Music, Literature and Performance in North India, 1st edn. (Open Book Publishers, 2015), pp. 61?106 Fisher, Elaine. ?Multiregional and Multi-Linguistic V?ra?aivism: Change and Continuity in an Early Devotional Tradition.? In *Modern Hinduism in Text and Context*, edited by Lavanya Vemsani, 9?22. London, UK: Bloomsbury Academic, 2018. Obrock, Luther. ?Muslim Mah?k?vyas: Sanskrit and Translation in the Sultanates.? In *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India*, edited by Tyler Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton Hawley, 58?76. New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2018. Patel, Deven M., ?Source, Exegesis, and Translation: Sanskrit Commentary and Regional Language Translation in South Asia?, *Journal of the American Oriental Society*, 131 (2011), 245?66 Pingree, David, ?Islamic Astronomy in Sanskrit?, *Journal for the History of Arabic Science*, 2 (1978), 315?30 Truschke, Audrey. *Culture of Encounters: Sanskrit at the Mughal Court*. South Asia across the Disciplines. New York: Columbia University Press, 2016. Williams, Tyler, ?Commentary as Translation: The Vair?gya V?nd of Bhagvandas Niranjani?, in *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India*, ed. by Tyler Walker Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton Hawley, 2018, pp. 99?125 All the best, Eric On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 2:13 PM Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Nataliya > > Has anyone mentioned mentioned the Buddhist tale, based on mistranslation > between Middle Indian languages and/or Sanskrit, retold by John Brough, > G?ndh?r? Dharmapada, pp. 45-6? It hinges on a misunderstanding of a > Middle Indian form from the dvandva *udaya-vyaya*, ?arising and passing > away?, as being from a tatpuru?a **udaka-baka*, ?heron of the water?. > > "This curious tale concerns the last days of Ananda, and tells how he > chanced to overhear a certain monk reciting a Dharmapada-verse in the > following manner (according to the Chinese versions): > > *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see a water-heron, it > were better that he live only for one day, and see a water-heron.* > > ?My son?, said ?nanda, 'the Buddha did not say this. What he said was: > > *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see the principle of > coming into existence and passing away, it were better . . . (and so > forth).* > > The monk thereupon reported the matter to his teacher, who replied, > ??nanda is an old fool. Go on reciting as before?. On hearing once more the > same faulty recitation, ?nanda realized that it was futile to attempt to > convince the monk of the error, since ail his seniors, to whom he might > have appealed, had already entered Nirv??a. Being thus unable to do > anything further to protect the Buddha?s words from corruption, he > considered that there was no reason to delay his own Nirv??a? > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > > On 3 Jan 2020, at 22:13, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nataliya, > > I recently wrote some remarks on this subject in another context. I've > extracted and lightly edited them here. (Attached) > > Best, > Dominik > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 23:42, Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> Happy New Year! >> A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and >> translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, >> in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? >> Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such >> texts! >> Many thanks and best wishes, >> Nataliya >> ----------- >> Nataliya Yanchevskaya >> Lecturer in Sanskrit >> PIIRS, Princeton University >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Eric Gurevitch PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science University of Chicago gurevitch at uchicago.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Jan 6 19:35:05 2020 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 11:35:05 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was studying Sanskrit dramas during my college days in Pune, we were not reading the Prakrit, but we read only the Sanskrit ch?ya of Prakrit passages. However, I remember our professor telling us that the Sanskrit ch?y? does not fully convey the beauty and the content of the original Prakrit. The one example that comes to my mind is from K?lid?sa's ??kuntalam. In the scene where Du?yanta sees the child Bharata playing with a lion cub, a d?s? says to the child: ???????????? ?????, and the child asks ???? ?? ????. To dissuade the child from the lion cub, the d?s? is showing him a toy bird and asking him to look at ??????-????????, while the child hears ????????-??????. Both of these Sanskrit readings have the same Prakrit reading, but while the Prakrit has the pun, the Sanskrit versions do not have that pun. As I am myself daily writing Sanskrit verses about Krishna and translating them into English [prose] and Marathi verse, I struggle with the issues of translation of my own poetry. My prose English translation struggles to convey the basic content, but it fails to communicate the beauty of Sanskrit and the allusions that the Sanskrit verses contain to the rest of the Sanskrit literature. On the other hand, I feel that my Marathi verse tends more and more to copy the style of Tukarama's Abhangas and does not have the classicism of the Sanskrit verse. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:36 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > One issue that seems not yet to have been raised in this thread is that of > chAyA, which is of course a type of translation from Prakrit to Sanskrit. I > would be most interested if anyone knows of any reflections on or > theoretization of (or jokes about!) chAyA within the Indian sources. > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Caley > Smith via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 11:29 AM > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations > > Dear Nataliya, > > While not commentarial on translation *per s?, *I have an article that > has just come out in the Wiley-Blackwell's *Companion to World Literature* > in which I try to use the aesthetic sensibilities of the Rgveda to imagine > what it would consider essential to a graceful translation itself (hint: > the enigma of the imagery has to remain, well... enigmatic). It is aimed at > a comparative lit audience rather than a strictly philological one, but if > you would like a copy, I am happy to send you a PDF. > > Best, > Caley > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Mon Jan 6 21:40:20 2020 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 22:40:20 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like it too ? --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pon., 6 sty 2020 o 18:30 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear Nataliya, > > While not commentarial on translation *per s?, *I have an article that > has just come out in the Wiley-Blackwell's *Companion to World Literature* > in which I try to use the aesthetic sensibilities of the Rgveda to imagine > what it would consider essential to a graceful translation itself (hint: > the enigma of the imagery has to remain, well... enigmatic). It is aimed at > a comparative lit audience rather than a strictly philological one, but if > you would like a copy, I am happy to send you a PDF. > > Best, > Caley > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Mon Jan 6 22:35:12 2020 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie ROEBUCK) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 22:35:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <857339325.12154158.1578350112298@mail.yahoo.com> I would also appreciate a copy, thank you. Valerie RoebuckManchester, UK On Monday, 6 January 2020, 21:41:18 GMT, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY wrote: I would like it too?? --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ? ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea ? https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pon., 6 sty 2020 o 18:30?Caley Smith via INDOLOGY napisa?(a): Dear Nataliya,? While not commentarial on translation?per s?, I have an article that has just come out in the Wiley-Blackwell's Companion to World Literature in which I try to use the aesthetic sensibilities of the Rgveda to imagine what it would consider essential to a graceful translation itself (hint: the enigma of the imagery has to remain, well... enigmatic). It is aimed at a comparative lit audience rather than a strictly philological one, but if you would like a copy, I am happy to send you a PDF. Best,Caley? _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Mon Jan 6 22:58:05 2020 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 20 22:58:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translations In-Reply-To: <857339325.12154158.1578350112298@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200106235845.d510aaabfd98a71d89f8e316@ff.cuni.cz> It is available on his academia.edu page: https://www.academia.edu/39278744/The_Invisible_World_of_the_Rigveda LO On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 22:35:12 +0000 (UTC) Valerie ROEBUCK via INDOLOGY wrote: > I would also appreciate a copy, thank you. > Valerie RoebuckManchester, UK > On Monday, 6 January 2020, 21:41:18 GMT, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY wrote: > > I would like it too?? > --- > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia > > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ? > > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > > 00-927 Warszawa , Poland > > Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages > > College of Human Sciences > > UNISA > > Pretoria, RSA > > Member of Academia Europaea ? > > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > pon., 6 sty 2020 o 18:30?Caley Smith via INDOLOGY napisa?(a): > > Dear Nataliya,? > While not commentarial on translation?per s?, I have an article that has just come out in the Wiley-Blackwell's Companion to World Literature in which I try to use the aesthetic sensibilities of the Rgveda to imagine what it would consider essential to a graceful translation itself (hint: the enigma of the imagery has to remain, well... enigmatic). It is aimed at a comparative lit audience rather than a strictly philological one, but if you would like a copy, I am happy to send you a PDF. > Best,Caley? > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 03:16:24 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 20 08:46:24 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Requests for scanned lexica - 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Scholars, I have received books 1, 2, 4,7 and 8. I thank all scholars who have helped me on and off list. I still need the following books. 3. Pary?ya?abdaratna of Dhana?jaya 5. Bh?riprayoga of Padman?bhadatta 6. ?abdaratn?kara of Mah?pa 9. Anek?rthan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri 10. ?abd?nek?rtha of Har?ak?rtis?ri With regards, On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 at 21:56, Dhaval Patel wrote: > Respected Scholars, > > If any one of you have access to any of the following lexica in scanned > format / possibility of obtaining a scanned copy, kindly forward it to me > please. > > 1. Anek?rthadhvanima?jar? of Mah?k?apa?aka > 2. Dhara?iko?a or Anek?rthas?ra of Dhara?id?sa > 3. Pary?ya?abdaratna of Dhana?jaya > 4. ?abdabhedaprak??a of Mahe?vara > 5. Bh?riprayoga of Padman?bhadatta > 6. ?abdaratn?kara of Mah?pa > 7. ?abdaratn?kara of V?manabha??a B??a > 8. ??rad?y?khyan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri > 9. Anek?rthan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri > 10. ?abd?nek?rtha of Har?ak?rtis?ri > > > -- > Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S > Collector and District Magistrate, Surat > www.sanskritworld.in > -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 11:56:55 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 20 17:26:55 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpI/gpJXgpL7gpJXgpY3gpLfgpLDgpJXgpYvgpLcgb2Yg4KSq4KWB4KSw4KWB4KS34KWL4KSk4KWN4KSk4KSu4KSm4KWH4KS1?= Message-ID: Dear Scholars, It is my pleasure to present before you the digital version of the following work Ek?k?arako?a of Puru?ottamadeva https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/ekaksharakosha_purushottamadeva/orig/ekaksharakosha.txt Feedback and suggestions are welcome. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Tue Jan 7 13:08:21 2020 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 20 14:08:21 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_S=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a's_commentary_to_V=C4=81jasaney=C4=AB_Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81_10.28?= Message-ID: <58764ab01f23c7c8261ecd997742a52e@fabularasa.dk> Dear friends, I am searching for S?ya?a's commentary to V?jasaney? Sa?hit? 10.28, and since I am travelling at the moment and do not have access to a library, I will try my luck here instead. I have the following translation from Panduranga Bhatta's "Dice-Play in Sanskrit Literature" (Delhi, 1985), but I need to check it against the original Sanskrit: "The game is played with five dice, four of which are called k?ta, whilst the fifth is called kali. If all the dice fall uniformly (ekar?pa), i.e. with the marked sides either upwards or downwards then the player wins, and in that case kali is said to overrule the other dice." (p. 80) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Jan 7 15:00:46 2020 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 20 15:00:46 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_S=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a's_commentary_to_V=C4=81jasaney=C4=AB_Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81_10.28?= In-Reply-To: <58764ab01f23c7c8261ecd997742a52e@fabularasa.dk> Message-ID: <657811A2-6365-407C-BDB5-5B71FD9DFEF8@uclouvain.be> The reference 10.28 matches with the Ma?dhyandina recension - cf. Weber's ed. with the commentary of Mah?dhara, and other subsequent eds like the following one from Nirnaya Sargar Press Bombay: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56847/page/n187 The commentary of S?ya?a at the same is to be found in the edition of the Ka??va recension at 11.38 see here, p. 20 of the second fasc./part (which starts after the p. 148 of the first part): https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/bookpage.php?Id=0B7JhzNLs-FQEbnBfbXRJNkZ4TUk https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/bookpage.php?Id=0B7JhzNLs-FQEQjJBSFNwZ0ttNXc (it should be on Archiv too, but I was able to find it only on the "Sanskrit Dictionary" DLI mirror) Ref. S?uklayajurvedaka?n?vasam?hita?. S?ri?sa?yan?a?ca?ryaviracitabha?s?yasahita?, 1 adhya?ya?da?rabhya 20 adhya?yaparyanta? : Ma?dhava S?astrin?a? sam?s?odhita? =Kanva sanhita of the Shukla Yajurveda, with bhashya of Sayana Charya, 1 to 20 chapters, [ed. Ratnagop?la Bhatta and M?dhava ?astr?] Benares : [Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office], [1908-]1915, Ka?s?i? Sam?skr?ta granthama?la?, 35 [in three parts: 144, 24 and 194 pp.] Cf. the sequel: S?uklayajurvedaka?n?va sam?hita? : Sa?yan?abha?s?yopeta? : uttaravims?atih? / sampa?dakah? S?ri?cinta?man?imis?ras?arma?, upasampa?dakah? S?ri?diva?karada?sas?arma?, sahasampa?dakh? Gopa?lacandramis?rah?. ed. Gopal Chandra Misra, Va?ra?n?asi? : Sampu?rn?a?nanda - Sam?skr?ta - Vis?vavidya?laye, 1978. Both volumes are on Hathi Trust but with "limited search only", cf. https://books.google.com/?id=fe2cxwEACAAJ https://books.google.com/?id=odRZQYi7ZekC See also the following edition of the Ka??va recension, without commentary: at the end there is a concordance of the two recensions. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.407960 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.407453 https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/bookpage.php?Id=0B7JhzNLs-FQETjd0dlpGVFlha28 Best wishes, Christophe Le 7 janv. 2020 ? 14:08, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear friends, I am searching for S?ya?a's commentary to V?jasaney? Sa?hit? 10.28, and since I am travelling at the moment and do not have access to a library, I will try my luck here instead. I have the following translation from Panduranga Bhatta's "Dice-Play in Sanskrit Literature" (Delhi, 1985), but I need to check it against the original Sanskrit: "The game is played with five dice, four of which are called k?ta, whilst the fifth is called kali. If all the dice fall uniformly (ekar?pa), i.e. with the marked sides either upwards or downwards then the player wins, and in that case kali is said to overrule the other dice." (p. 80) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf141e791c1274e86083208d79372c7d8%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637139993493937276&sdata=6it78cHQiTI8DJOmfDGKf8QQTFZOY6AyfcamaP6pssY%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Tue Jan 7 15:53:47 2020 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 20 16:53:47 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_S=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a's_commentary_to_V=C4=81jasaney=C4=AB_Sa=E1=B9=83hit=C4=81_10.28?= In-Reply-To: <657811A2-6365-407C-BDB5-5B71FD9DFEF8@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Wonderful! Thank you so much for this, Christophe! Best wishes, Jacob Christophe Vielle skrev den 2020-01-07 16:00: > The reference 10.28 matches with the Ma?dhyandina recension - cf. > Weber's ed. with the commentary of Mah?dhara, and other subsequent > eds like the following one from Nirnaya Sargar Press Bombay: > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56847/page/n187 > > The commentary of S?ya?a at the same is to be found in the edition > of the Ka??va recension at 11.38 > see here, p. 20 of the second fasc./part (which starts after the p. > 148 of the first part): > > https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/bookpage.php?Id=0B7JhzNLs-FQEbnBfbXRJNkZ4TUk > > https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/bookpage.php?Id=0B7JhzNLs-FQEQjJBSFNwZ0ttNXc > > > (it should be on Archiv too, but I was able to find it only on the > "Sanskrit Dictionary" DLI mirror) > > Ref. > > S?UKLAYAJURVEDAKA?N?VASAM?HITA?. > S?RI?SA?YAN?A?CA?RYAVIRACITABHA?S?YASAHITA?, > > 1 ADHYA?YA?DA?RABHYA 20 ADHYA?YAPARYANTA? : > > Ma?dhava S?astrin?a? sam?s?odhita? > > =KANVA SANHITA OF THE SHUKLA YAJURVEDA, WITH BHASHYA OF SAYANA > CHARYA, 1 TO 20 CHAPTERS, > > [ed. Ratnagop?la Bhatta and M?dhava ?astr?] > Benares : [Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office], [1908-]1915, Ka?s?i? > Sam?skr?ta granthama?la? [1], 35 [in three parts: 144, 24 and 194 > pp.] > > Cf. the sequel: > S?uklayajurvedaka?n?va sam?hita? : > Sa?yan?abha?s?yopeta? : uttaravims?atih? / > sampa?dakah? S?ri?cinta?man?imis?ras?arma?, upasampa?dakah? > S?ri?diva?karada?sas?arma?, sahasampa?dakh? > Gopa?lacandramis?rah?. > ed. Gopal Chandra Misra, Va?ra?n?asi? : Sampu?rn?a?nanda - > Sam?skr?ta - Vis?vavidya?laye, 1978. > > Both volumes are on Hathi Trust but with "limited search only", cf. > https://books.google.com/?id=fe2cxwEACAAJ > https://books.google.com/?id=odRZQYi7ZekC > > See also the following edition of the Ka??va recension, without > commentary: at the end there is a concordance of the two recensions. > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.407960 > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.407453 > https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/bookpage.php?Id=0B7JhzNLs-FQETjd0dlpGVFlha28 > > > Best wishes, > > Christophe > >> Le 7 janv. 2020 ? 14:08, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> a ?crit : >> >> Dear friends, >> >> I am searching for S?ya?a's commentary to V?jasaney? Sa?hit? >> 10.28, and since I am travelling at the moment and do not have >> access to a library, I will try my luck here instead. I have the >> following translation from Panduranga Bhatta's "Dice-Play in >> Sanskrit Literature" (Delhi, 1985), but I need to check it against >> the original Sanskrit: >> >> "The game is played with five dice, four of which are called k?ta, >> whilst the fifth is called kali. If all the dice fall uniformly >> (ekar?pa), i.e. with the marked sides either upwards or downwards >> then the player wins, and in that case kali is said to overrule the >> other dice." (p. 80) >> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Best regards, >> Jacob >> >> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >> Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology >> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies >> University of Copenhagen >> Denmark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf141e791c1274e86083208d79372c7d8%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637139993493937276&sdata=6it78cHQiTI8DJOmfDGKf8QQTFZOY6AyfcamaP6pssY%3D&reserved=0 >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle [2] > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=hotseries&q=se%3A%22Ka%CC%84s%CC%81i%CC%84+Sam%CC%A3skr%CC%A5ta+granthama%CC%84la%CC%84%22 > [2] https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 17:00:27 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 Jan 20 10:00:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Professor Ram Karan Sharma Award: Reminder In-Reply-To: <20200105150915.Horde.PrRg6AwVXPR6_xALAfky2rO@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 07:10 Subject: Professor Ram Karan Sharma Award: Reminder To: indology-owner , Indologie < indologie at uni-tuebingen.de>, RISA Academic Discussion < risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu> Cc: Deven M. Patel Dear Colleagues, Students and well-wishers of Professor Ram Karan Sharma approached the IASS during the Vancouver WSC in July 2018 to set up this award under the auspices of the IASS (International Association of Sanskrit Studies). Professor Sharma sadly passed away in the meantime on 18 December 2018. He was the President of the IASS from 1994?2006. The award in his honour was welcomed by all the members of the Board, Regional Directors and Consultative Committee of the IASS. Details were announced in IASS website in August 2018 for the award, to be coupled with each World Sanskrit Conference. One of the he conditions for the award includes: "In the fve years (2016?2021) previous to the next WSC applicants 1) shall have received a PhD and 2) shall have published journal articles and/or published a book in the area(s) mentioned above. Theses and publications in English only are eligible for consideration." Please see all the details here: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/images/pdf/Professor-Ram-Karan-Sharma-Award.pdf The next WSC conference is to take place in Canberra, Australia, from 18-22 January 2021: www.wsc2021.com.au The deadline for the award valued at 1000 USD is the end of January 2020 and the winner to be announced soon after the Canberra WSC 18?22 January 2021. Please Note: Applications for the RK Sharma Award should be sent to Professor Deven Patel: deven.m.patel at gmail.com. With thanks for your attention, Jay Soni Secretary General of the IASS -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 08:37:46 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 14:07:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Translation/Commentary on basic Ayurveda Message-ID: Dear all I want know the best sources to learn Ayurveda from the scratch to advanced. Please provide some good resources. Thanks Krishna Prasad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From veerankp at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 09:08:52 2020 From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 14:38:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 50th All India Oriental Conference in Nagpur 10-12.1.20 Message-ID: Dear All Please find the details of 50th All India Oriental Conference to be held in Nagpur on 10-12.1.20. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ?.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1198901 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Jan 8 09:41:16 2020 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 09:41:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Message-ID: <20200108094116.10933.qmail@f4mail-235-140.rediffmail.com> Respected scholars, "Bhamati" written and composed by Bachaspati Misra  , as a commentary on Shankaracharya' version of Brahma Sutra, takes it's name from  his wife by the same name.It may be a curious query to search if any  records exist about the person named Bhamati, Bachaspati Misra's wife? .... whether she played any significant role in helping her husband compose this Magnum Opus..         Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 10:21:28 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 15:51:28 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. In-Reply-To: <20200108094116.10933.qmail@f4mail-235-140.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: It is believed that, she was with husband without his knowledge for years. Even on his marriage occasion he was busy reading books. After years have elapsed, one night when he was writing a commentary on BS, there was a sudden darkness due to the lack of oil in the lamp. A lady came lit the fire. At that time VM realized he has a wife. He asks about how she managed to earn for living etc, later VM suggests his wife to leave. On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 3:12 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Respected scholars, > "Bhamati" written and composed by Bachaspati Misra , as a commentary on > Shankaracharya' version of Brahma Sutra, takes it's name from his wife by > the same name.It may be a curious query to search if any records exist > about the person named Bhamati, Bachaspati Misra's wife? .... whether she > played any significant role in helping her husband compose this Magnum > Opus.. > Alakendu Das. > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Jan 8 10:56:45 2020 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 10:56:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Message-ID: <1578476476.S.1695.10945.f4mail-235-140.rediffmail.com.1578481005.5288@webmail.rediffmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Jan 8 11:00:17 2020 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 11:00:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Message-ID: <1578481051.S.26617.autosave.drafts.1578481217.23758@webmail.rediffmail.com> Thanks for your elaboration on Bhamati.However, I am aware of this anecdote.I am looking for some new findings on her life.Thanks.Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:51:41 GMT+0530 To: alakendu das <mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. It is believed that, she was with husband without his knowledge for years. Even on his marriage occasion he was busy reading books. After years have elapsed, one night when  he was writing a commentary on BS,  there was a sudden darkness due to the lack of oil in the lamp. A lady came lit the fire. At that time VM realized he has a wife. He asks about how she managed to earn for living etc, later VM suggests his wife to leave.  On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 3:12 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Respected scholars, "Bhamati" written and composed by Bachaspati Misra  , as a commentary on Shankaracharya' version of Brahma Sutra, takes it's name from  his wife by the same name.It may be a curious query to search if any  records exist about the person named Bhamati, Bachaspati Misra's wife? .... whether she played any significant role in helping her husband compose this Magnum Opus..         Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 14:24:53 2020 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 19:54:53 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. In-Reply-To: <6fh4m3ntfkha6cqbv1ckulfg.1578488420322@email.android.com> Message-ID: <5e15e63b.1c69fb81.769a0.983e@mx.google.com> Dear colleagues,As far as Vachaspati Misra's personal life is concerned it's all based on legends.There is no historical evidence or book on it.For centuries in our Mithila there are many legends about the life of many Sanskrit scholars which we know through our seniors.As such it's very difficult to enquire into these things.As Mr Krisna prasad Ji said that Pt Vachaspati told her wife to leave,we are not aware of it.Pt Misra knew well that she was his wife.But he was completely absorbed in his multi-dimensional studies,as a result he could not take care of worldly behaviours.It is also a popular tale in Mithila that when Bhaskar refuted Shankar's Advaitavada? a descendent Shankaracharya came to Mithila and requested Pt Mira's wife(in his absence) to write a profound commentary on Shankara bhasha and also protect its Validity.Pt Misra accepted this task and also expressed his difference on a few issues and refuted Bhaskara's? commentary relating to Bhedabheda.It was the need of that hour which Adi Shankara had to meet through his Advaitavada.Meanwhile his wife Bharati expressed her wish for a baby.It was too late.Pt Misra regretted for his inability in that age of more than 65.He said this commentary is named Bhamati and you will be famous for the endless time.The great Vedantin Swami Karapatri Ji had said that if Mishrapada were not born Acharya pada were not be famous as is today.Kindest regards,SincerelyGirish K.JhaRetd. University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPresent Residence: KolkataSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: alakendu das via INDOLOGY Date: 1/8/20 4:49 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Krishnaprasad G Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Thanks for your elaboration on Bhamati.However, I am aware of this anecdote.I am looking for some new findings on her life.Thanks.Alakendu Das.Sent from RediffmailNG on AndroidFrom: Krishnaprasad G Sent: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:51:41 GMT+0530To: alakendu das Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati.It is believed that, she was with husband without his knowledge for years. Even on his marriage occasion he was busy reading books. After years have elapsed, one night when? he was writing a commentary on BS,? there was a sudden darkness due to the lack of oil in the lamp. A lady came lit the fire. At that time VM realized he has a wife. He asks about how she managed to earn for living etc, later VM suggests his wife to leave.?On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 3:12 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY wrote:Respected scholars,?"Bhamati" written and composed by Bachaspati Misra? , as a commentary on Shankaracharya' version of Brahma Sutra, takes it's name from? his wife by the same name.It may be a curious query to search if any? records exist about the person named Bhamati, Bachaspati Misra's wife? .... whether she played any significant role in helping her husband compose this Magnum Opus..? ? ? ? Alakendu Das.Sent from RediffmailNG on Android_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 14:33:15 2020 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 20:03:15 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5e15e831.1c69fb81.769a0.992f@mx.google.com> Dear colleaguesSorry for mistyping as it should be correctlyBhamati.Girish K.JhaSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: jhakgirish Date: 1/8/20 7:54 PM (GMT+05:30) To: alakendu das , Krishnaprasad G Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Dear colleagues,As far as Vachaspati Misra's personal life is concerned it's all based on legends.There is no historical evidence or book on it.For centuries in our Mithila there are many legends about the life of many Sanskrit scholars which we know through our seniors.As such it's very difficult to enquire into these things.As Mr Krisna prasad Ji said that Pt Vachaspati told her wife to leave,we are not aware of it.Pt Misra knew well that she was his wife.But he was completely absorbed in his multi-dimensional studies,as a result he could not take care of worldly behaviours.It is also a popular tale in Mithila that when Bhaskar refuted Shankar's Advaitavada? a descendent Shankaracharya came to Mithila and requested Pt Mira's wife(in his absence) to write a profound commentary on Shankara bhasha and also protect its Validity.Pt Misra accepted this task and also expressed his difference on a few issues and refuted Bhaskara's? commentary relating to Bhedabheda.It was the need of that hour which Adi Shankara had to meet through his Advaitavada.Meanwhile his wife Bharati expressed her wish for a baby.It was too late.Pt Misra regretted for his inability in that age of more than 65.He said this commentary is named Bhamati and you will be famous for the endless time.The great Vedantin Swami Karapatri Ji had said that if Mishrapada were not born Acharya pada were not be famous as is today.Kindest regards,SincerelyGirish K.JhaRetd. University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPresent Residence: KolkataSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: alakendu das via INDOLOGY Date: 1/8/20 4:49 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Krishnaprasad G Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Thanks for your elaboration on Bhamati.However, I am aware of this anecdote.I am looking for some new findings on her life.Thanks.Alakendu Das.Sent from RediffmailNG on AndroidFrom: Krishnaprasad G Sent: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:51:41 GMT+0530To: alakendu das Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati.It is believed that, she was with husband without his knowledge for years. Even on his marriage occasion he was busy reading books. After years have elapsed, one night when? he was writing a commentary on BS,? there was a sudden darkness due to the lack of oil in the lamp. A lady came lit the fire. At that time VM realized he has a wife. He asks about how she managed to earn for living etc, later VM suggests his wife to leave.?On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 3:12 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY wrote:Respected scholars,?"Bhamati" written and composed by Bachaspati Misra? , as a commentary on Shankaracharya' version of Brahma Sutra, takes it's name from? his wife by the same name.It may be a curious query to search if any? records exist about the person named Bhamati, Bachaspati Misra's wife? .... whether she played any significant role in helping her husband compose this Magnum Opus..? ? ? ? Alakendu Das.Sent from RediffmailNG on Android_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr Wed Jan 8 16:40:12 2020 From: kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Agathe Keller) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 16:40:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Has all went well? Message-ID: Dear Rosane, A small message as I thought of you today, as i?ve struggled to get to the train station and fine a running train that would bring me to where I am now for a couple of day, in Mainz. Have you well reached Munich? Is you?re colleague and friend faring well enough? with all my best Agathe Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? de Paris Laboratoire SPHERE (UMR 7219) Postal Address : Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France Parcels: B?timent Condorcet 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: B?timent Olympe de Gouges Place Paul Ricoeur 75013 PARIS 6th floor office 628 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Jan 8 17:49:48 2020 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 17:49:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Message-ID: <1578493504.S.16284.31917.f5-147-236.1578505788.6123@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.JhaThank you very much for elucidating on Bhamati.Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: jhakgirish <jhakgirish at gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 19:55:04 GMT+0530 To: alakendu das <mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com>, Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Dear colleagues,As far as Vachaspati Misra's personal life is concerned it's all based on legends.There is no historical evidence or book on it.For centuries in our Mithila there are many legends about the life of many Sanskrit scholars which we know through our seniors.As such it's very difficult to enquire into these things.As Mr Krisna prasad Ji said that Pt Vachaspati told her wife to leave,we are not aware of it.Pt Misra knew well that she was his wife.But he was completely absorbed in his multi-dimensional studies,as a result he could not take care of worldly behaviours.It is also a popular tale in Mithila that when Bhaskar refuted Shankar's Advaitavada  a descendent Shankaracharya came to Mithila and requested Pt Mira's wife(in his absence) to write a profound commentary on Shankara bhasha and also protect its Validity.Pt Misra accepted this task and also expressed his difference on a few issues and refuted Bhaskara's  commentary relating to Bhedabheda.It was the need of that hour which Adi Shankara had to meet through his Advaitavada.Meanwhile his wife Bharati expressed her wish for a baby.It was too late.Pt Misra regretted for his inability in that age of more than 65.He said this commentary is named Bhamati and you will be famous for the endless time.The great Vedantin Swami Karapatri Ji had said that if Mishrapada were not born Acharya pada were not be famous as is today.Kindest regards,SincerelyGirish K.JhaRetd. University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPresent Residence: Kolkata Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> Date: 1/8/20 4:49 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> Cc: indology <indology at list.indology.info> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. Thanks for your elaboration on Bhamati.However, I am aware of this anecdote.I am looking for some new findings on her life.Thanks.Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:51:41 GMT+0530 To: alakendu das <mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Bhamati. It is believed that, she was with husband without his knowledge for years. Even on his marriage occasion he was busy reading books. After years have elapsed, one night when  he was writing a commentary on BS,  there was a sudden darkness due to the lack of oil in the lamp. A lady came lit the fire. At that time VM realized he has a wife. He asks about how she managed to earn for living etc, later VM suggests his wife to leave.  On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 3:12 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Respected scholars, "Bhamati" written and composed by Bachaspati Misra  , as a commentary on Shankaracharya' version of Brahma Sutra, takes it's name from  his wife by the same name.It may be a curious query to search if any  records exist about the person named Bhamati, Bachaspati Misra's wife? .... whether she played any significant role in helping her husband compose this Magnum Opus..         Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Wed Jan 8 18:07:49 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 20 19:07:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nataliya (and her student), not yet mentioned by the contributors on this topic, there is quite a substantial book not directly thematizing the practice of translation, but the hermeneutical presuppositions for semantic understanding, hence translating. Benefitting one?s so-called ?prestructure of understanding? (in Gadamer?s terminology), i.e., what Dominic has pointed out as ?presuppositions [which] too often remain unexamined? (right at the beginning of his remarks ?On translation?), it investigates some of the underlying classical Indian principles of hermeneutics: Eivind Kahrs, *Indian Semantic Analysis. The *nirvacana* Tradition*, Cambridge 1998. Best wishes, Hartmut P.S.: My mind somehow getting drawn into reflections on this subject, fingers finding their way to the keyboard, I noted down some *ad hoc* reflections; following Dominic?s example, I send them along with this mail to the list as an attachment. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:13 PM Eric Gurevitch via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > In addition to the articles already mentioned, the following recent > (except for one) essays and books all contain useful analyses on how > translation was conceptualized both to and from Sanskrit ? although not in > free-standing texts. > > Cort, John E., ?Making It Vernacular in Agra: The Practice of Translation > by Seventeenth-Century Jains?, in *Tellings and Texts*, ed. by Francesca > Orsini and Katherine Butler Schofield, Music, Literature and Performance in > North India, 1st edn. (Open Book Publishers, 2015), pp. 61?106 > > > > Fisher, Elaine. ?Multiregional and Multi-Linguistic V?ra?aivism: Change > and Continuity in an Early Devotional Tradition.? In *Modern Hinduism in > Text and Context*, edited by Lavanya Vemsani, 9?22. London, UK: > Bloomsbury Academic, 2018. > > > > Obrock, Luther. ?Muslim Mah?k?vyas: Sanskrit and Translation in the > Sultanates.? In *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India*, edited > by Tyler Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton Hawley, 58?76. New > Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2018. > > > > Patel, Deven M., ?Source, Exegesis, and Translation: Sanskrit Commentary > and Regional Language Translation in South Asia?, *Journal of the > American Oriental Society*, 131 (2011), 245?66 > > > > Pingree, David, ?Islamic Astronomy in Sanskrit?, *Journal for the History > of Arabic Science*, 2 (1978), 315?30 > > > > Truschke, Audrey. *Culture of Encounters: Sanskrit at the Mughal Court*. > South Asia across the Disciplines. New York: Columbia University Press, > 2016. > > > > Williams, Tyler, ?Commentary as Translation: The Vair?gya V?nd of > Bhagvandas Niranjani?, in *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India*, > ed. by Tyler Walker Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton Hawley, > 2018, pp. 99?125 > > > > All the best, > > Eric > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 2:13 PM Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Nataliya >> >> Has anyone mentioned mentioned the Buddhist tale, based on mistranslation >> between Middle Indian languages and/or Sanskrit, retold by John Brough, >> G?ndh?r? Dharmapada, pp. 45-6? It hinges on a misunderstanding of a >> Middle Indian form from the dvandva *udaya-vyaya*, ?arising and passing >> away?, as being from a tatpuru?a **udaka-baka*, ?heron of the water?. >> >> "This curious tale concerns the last days of Ananda, and tells how he >> chanced to overhear a certain monk reciting a Dharmapada-verse in the >> following manner (according to the Chinese versions): >> >> *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see a water-heron, it >> were better that he live only for one day, and see a water-heron.* >> >> ?My son?, said ?nanda, 'the Buddha did not say this. What he said was: >> >> *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see the principle of >> coming into existence and passing away, it were better . . . (and so >> forth).* >> >> The monk thereupon reported the matter to his teacher, who replied, >> ??nanda is an old fool. Go on reciting as before?. On hearing once more the >> same faulty recitation, ?nanda realized that it was futile to attempt to >> convince the monk of the error, since ail his seniors, to whom he might >> have appealed, had already entered Nirv??a. Being thus unable to do >> anything further to protect the Buddha?s words from corruption, he >> considered that there was no reason to delay his own Nirv??a? >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> Manchester, UK >> >> >> On 3 Jan 2020, at 22:13, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Nataliya, >> >> I recently wrote some remarks on this subject in another context. I've >> extracted and lightly edited them here. (Attached) >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> >> , >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> , >> University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> sas.ualberta.ca >> >> >> >> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 23:42, Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> Happy New Year! >>> A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and >>> translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, >>> in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? >>> Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such >>> texts! >>> Many thanks and best wishes, >>> Nataliya >>> ----------- >>> Nataliya Yanchevskaya >>> Lecturer in Sanskrit >>> PIIRS, Princeton University >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > > Eric Gurevitch > > PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and > > Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science > > University of Chicago > > gurevitch at uchicago.edu > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 06:21:48 2020 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 15:21:48 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] unpublished MA thesis In-Reply-To: <133f2897-4171-45b5-976e-4857887a41ce@Spark> Message-ID: Dear members of the list, I was working through some readings suggested by Naresh Keerthi in one of his posts to the list?(thanks a lot for this, Naresh!). One of these (RP Das, ?On the identification of a Vedic plant?) mentions an unpublished MA thesis submitted by?Mathias Helmdach to Uni M?nchen in 1980, ?Farbbezeichnungen und Farbverst?ndnis im altern Indien (Dargestellt an Hand ausgew?hlter Werke der altindischen Literatur)?. I am unable to locate it in the catalogue of the university (I thought, I could order a scan), so that I was wondering if any of you may know the whereabouts of the thesis, the scholar, or, what would be absolutely great, may even have a pdf of the study. Many thanks in advance! best, Andrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From huesken at uni-heidelberg.de Thu Jan 9 08:40:49 2020 From: huesken at uni-heidelberg.de (Huesken, Prof. Dr. Ute) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 08:40:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orbituary Pandit Dr. Parameswara Aithal Message-ID: <94D1F5CB-981B-4062-BD7D-F9880CB6B697@uni-heidelberg.de> Dear list members, It is my sad duty to inform you of the demise of Pandit Dr. Parameswara Aithal, former Sanskrit lecturer at Heidelberg University and Honorary member of the South Asia Institute. Please find the orbituary by Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels, former head of the department ?Cultural and Religious History of South Asia? at Heidelberg University here: https://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/aktuelles/ObituaryAithal.pdf With best regards, Ute Huesken Prof. Dr. Ute H?sken Vice Dean, Faculty of Arts Head of Department, Cultural and Religious History of South Asia Heidelberg University Vo?strasse 2, Building 4130, Room 130.02.15 69115 Heidelberg Germany Phone: +49-6221-54 15261 Email: huesken at uni-heidelberg.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jan 9 11:28:26 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 11:28:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Message-ID: Dear friends, I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. [cid:c68dae3f-7da1-403b-b447-8d2da375970e] What I see is: na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque back translation into Sanskrit, would be mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jan 9 11:33:59 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 11:33:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For whatever reason, the inscription was filtered out of my message. I send it here as an attachment. Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 5:28 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear friends, I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. [cid:c68dae3f-7da1-403b-b447-8d2da375970e] What I see is: na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque back translation into Sanskrit, would be mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gyurmedecheninscription.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 109791 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markandeia at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 12:49:39 2020 From: markandeia at gmail.com (Nataliya Yanchevskaya) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 07:49:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Matthew, It seems that the first syllable with a ligature is -lki; the part after "vijaya" is probably "sa" (but "su" would make more sense ? hard to see though). The whole thing looks like: nama? kalki-vijaya-suk?rtaye ("sa" and "ta" are written almost like in Bengali, as well as "e" in "ye"). Is it possible in this case? Just my two cents, I hope a specialist in paleography will do better. Best wishes, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 6:29 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear friends, > > I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might > help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not > make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. > > > > What I see is: > na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// > > The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving > me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha > mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque > back translation into Sanskrit, would be > mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha > mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule > that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any > case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. > > thanks in advance for your suggestions, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Jan 9 13:32:10 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 13:32:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Nataliya, Your suggestion seems plausible to me on both paleographical and contextual grounds. Let?s see what others think. best, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Nataliya Yanchevskaya Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:49:39 PM To: Matthew Kapstein ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear Matthew, It seems that the first syllable with a ligature is -lki; the part after "vijaya" is probably "sa" (but "su" would make more sense ? hard to see though). The whole thing looks like: nama? kalki-vijaya-suk?rtaye ("sa" and "ta" are written almost like in Bengali, as well as "e" in "ye"). Is it possible in this case? Just my two cents, I hope a specialist in paleography will do better. Best wishes, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 6:29 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear friends, I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. [X] What I see is: na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque back translation into Sanskrit, would be mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 15:26:40 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 20:56:40 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKbgpY3gpLXgpL/gpLDgpYLgpKrgpJXgpYvgpLcgb2Yg4KSq4KWB4KSw4KWB4KS34KWL4KSk4KWN4KSk4KSu4KSm4KWH4KS1?= Message-ID: Dear scholars, Please find attached the digital version of the following work Dvir?pako?a of Puru?ottamadeva https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/dvirupakosha_purushottamadeva/orig/dvirupakosha.txt With regards, -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 9 16:02:01 2020 From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 17:02:01 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Reminder:_Malayalam_for_Beginners_@_T=C3=BCbingen:_10.-14._&_17.-21.2.2020?= Message-ID: <727B5ACE-08B3-4072-B8E6-6011BF727287@uni-tuebingen.de> Dear members of the list, in T?bingen the annual Malayalam intensive course for beginners will be offered again in February 2020, see for details below and the attachment. All interested are welcome to register, there are still seats available! Best regards, Heike Oberlin Malaya?l?am ? Course for Beginners 10.-14. & 17.-21.2.2020 Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin Venue: Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies, Dept. of Indology Keplerstr. 2, 72074 Tuebingen, room 004 Time: both weeks Monday ? Friday, daily 10:00-12:30 and 14:30-17:00 h Fees: For students of the University of Tuebingen: both weeks 15 ? (copying costs for teaching materials) Others: per week 60 ? (including copying costs for teaching materials) Registration: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de Credit points / ECTS: Each of the two weeks is equivalent to a regular course with 2 hours per week (2 Semesterwochenstunden). For students of other departments or universities: The count of credit points must be fixed individually with the respective department or home university. A continuation course is supposed to be offered as part of the Gundert Chair in summer 2020. ------------------- Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin Associate Professor of Indology Eberhard Karls University of Tuebingen Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI) Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion Keplerstr. 2 (room 139) ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066 heike.oberlin @uni-tuebingen.de http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/aoi/indologie/mitarbeiter/heike-oberlin-moser.html *** Latest publication: Heike Oberlin & David Shulman (eds.). 2019. Two Masterpieces of K??iy???am: Mantr??kam and A?gul?y??kam. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. *** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Malayalam_1_2020.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 130669 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Jan 9 19:13:54 2020 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 11:13:54 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] David W. McAlpin Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Does anyone have the current contact info for David W. McAlpin who years ago worked on the relationship between Dravidian and Elamite? Need to contact him. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 19:53:33 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 12:53:33 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Title_of_argal=C4=81stotram?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've always taken it to be a lock or bolt of protection, i.e., the stotra is a protective amulet. -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 20:46, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > > The title of a popular hymn to ca??ik? is argal?stotram. But I can find > no explanation of the relevence of this as a title to a hymn to the goddess ca??ik?. > Can anyone shed any light on this. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 00:26:05 2020 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 19:26:05 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] David W. McAlpin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Deshpandeji, I had corresponded with him when I was working on my chapter on the Dravidian Languages for Mouton publishers. The last correspondence was about two years ago in 2017 Dec when we exchanged holiday greetings. Franklin C. Southworth may have a more recent contact. Thanks, Suresh. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 2:15 PM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Does anyone have the current contact info for David W. McAlpin who > years ago worked on the relationship between Dravidian and Elamite? Need > to contact him. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 03:02:26 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 22:02:26 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Title_of_argal=C4=81stotram?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Dominik, In light of your reply, I'm posting this which was sent to me off-list ------------------------------- --------------------------------- I found the following entry in B?htlingk's small Petersburg Dictionary: "argal?stuti f. und argal?stotra n. Bez. eines dem Dev?m?h?tmya vorangehenden und dasselbe verschliessenden Lobgesanges" (= Name of a hymn of praise preceding the Dev?m?h?tmya and sealing the same). As you know, argala means "bolt, latch". ---------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- Argala and k?laka are synonymous, and from this entry in Boethlink-Roth it appears that the argal?stotra has the same relationship to the Dev?m?h?tmya as a k?laka syllable to a stotra. I.e.in the preamble of many stotras 6 items are listed, one of which is the k?laka. syllable. I.e. ??i, chandas, devat?, bija, ?akti and k?laka. But for over 10 years I've been trying to find information on what exactly, in the context of this kind of preamble of a stotra, is the meaning of the k?laka.syllable. a) Would it be possible for a french speaking indologist to translate the entry for k?laka (which I've attached) in the tantrikabhidanakosa. b) Other than this entry in TAK does anyone know of any articles on k?laka in this context. Thanks, Harry Spier On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 2:53 PM Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I've always taken it to be a lock or bolt of protection, i.e., the stotra > is a protective amulet. > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kilakam-in-TAK.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 63504 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markandeia at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 03:59:30 2020 From: markandeia at gmail.com (Nataliya Yanchevskaya) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 20 22:59:30 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, Thanks again for your input! Now my student has something to choose from. As expected, it is mostly secondary literature, however, it might point towards some unexpected Sanskrit sources ? we'll see. Answering to Matthew Kapstein, here is a very short bibliography of what I have received off-list: Speziale, F. (2019). Ras?yana and Rasa??stra in the Persian Medical Culture of South Asia. *History of Science in South Asia*, 7, 1-41. https://doi.org/10.18732/hssa.v7i0.40 Garzilli, E. (1996) (ed.), Translating, Translations, Translators from India to the West (Harvard Oriental Series; Cambridge, MA: Harvard Univ.), XVIII, 190. Doniger O'Flaherty, Wendy. (1987) On Translating Sanskrit myths. In: Radice W. and Barbara Reynolds, eds. *The translator's art. Essays in honour of Betty Radice.* 121-128. Sarukkai, S. (2016), Translation As Method: Implications for History of Science, *Indian Journal of History of Science*, 51/1: 105?17. The rest was sent via the list. Thanks again and best wishes, Nataliya On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 1:08 PM Hartmut Buescher wrote: > Dear Nataliya (and her student), > > > > not yet mentioned by the contributors on this topic, there is quite a > substantial > > book not directly thematizing the practice of translation, but the > hermeneutical > > presuppositions for semantic understanding, hence translating. Benefitting > one?s > > so-called ?prestructure of understanding? (in Gadamer?s terminology), > i.e., what > > Dominic has pointed out as ?presuppositions [which] too often remain > unexamined? > > (right at the beginning of his remarks ?On translation?), it investigates > some of the > > underlying classical Indian principles of hermeneutics: > > > > Eivind Kahrs, *Indian Semantic Analysis. The *nirvacana* Tradition*, > Cambridge 1998. > > > > Best wishes, Hartmut > > > > P.S.: My mind somehow getting drawn into reflections on this subject, > fingers > > finding their way to the keyboard, I noted down some *ad hoc* > reflections; following > > Dominic?s example, I send them along with this mail to the list as an > attachment. > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:13 PM Eric Gurevitch via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> In addition to the articles already mentioned, the following recent >> (except for one) essays and books all contain useful analyses on how >> translation was conceptualized both to and from Sanskrit ? although not in >> free-standing texts. >> >> Cort, John E., ?Making It Vernacular in Agra: The Practice of Translation >> by Seventeenth-Century Jains?, in *Tellings and Texts*, ed. by Francesca >> Orsini and Katherine Butler Schofield, Music, Literature and Performance in >> North India, 1st edn. (Open Book Publishers, 2015), pp. 61?106 >> >> >> >> Fisher, Elaine. ?Multiregional and Multi-Linguistic V?ra?aivism: Change >> and Continuity in an Early Devotional Tradition.? In *Modern Hinduism in >> Text and Context*, edited by Lavanya Vemsani, 9?22. London, UK: >> Bloomsbury Academic, 2018. >> >> >> >> Obrock, Luther. ?Muslim Mah?k?vyas: Sanskrit and Translation in the >> Sultanates.? In *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India*, edited >> by Tyler Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton Hawley, 58?76. New >> Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2018. >> >> >> >> Patel, Deven M., ?Source, Exegesis, and Translation: Sanskrit Commentary >> and Regional Language Translation in South Asia?, *Journal of the >> American Oriental Society*, 131 (2011), 245?66 >> >> >> >> Pingree, David, ?Islamic Astronomy in Sanskrit?, *Journal for the >> History of Arabic Science*, 2 (1978), 315?30 >> >> >> >> Truschke, Audrey. *Culture of Encounters: Sanskrit at the Mughal Court*. >> South Asia across the Disciplines. New York: Columbia University Press, >> 2016. >> >> >> >> Williams, Tyler, ?Commentary as Translation: The Vair?gya V?nd of >> Bhagvandas Niranjani?, in *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North >> India*, ed. by Tyler Walker Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton >> Hawley, 2018, pp. 99?125 >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 2:13 PM Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nataliya >>> >>> Has anyone mentioned mentioned the Buddhist tale, based on >>> mistranslation between Middle Indian languages and/or Sanskrit, retold by >>> John Brough, G?ndh?r? Dharmapada, pp. 45-6? It hinges on a >>> misunderstanding of a Middle Indian form from the dvandva *udaya-vyaya*, >>> ?arising and passing away?, as being from a tatpuru?a **udaka-baka*, >>> ?heron of the water?. >>> >>> "This curious tale concerns the last days of Ananda, and tells how he >>> chanced to overhear a certain monk reciting a Dharmapada-verse in the >>> following manner (according to the Chinese versions): >>> >>> *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see a >>> water-heron, it were better that he live only for one day, and see a >>> water-heron.* >>> >>> ?My son?, said ?nanda, 'the Buddha did not say this. What he said was: >>> >>> *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see the principle of >>> coming into existence and passing away, it were better . . . (and so >>> forth).* >>> >>> The monk thereupon reported the matter to his teacher, who replied, >>> ??nanda is an old fool. Go on reciting as before?. On hearing once more the >>> same faulty recitation, ?nanda realized that it was futile to attempt to >>> convince the monk of the error, since ail his seniors, to whom he might >>> have appealed, had already entered Nirv??a. Being thus unable to do >>> anything further to protect the Buddha?s words from corruption, he >>> considered that there was no reason to delay his own Nirv??a? >>> >>> Valerie J Roebuck >>> Manchester, UK >>> >>> >>> On 3 Jan 2020, at 22:13, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Nataliya, >>> >>> I recently wrote some remarks on this subject in another context. I've >>> extracted and lightly edited them here. (Attached) >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> -- >>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >>> >>> , >>> >>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >>> , >>> >>> Department of History and Classics >>> >>> , >>> University of Alberta, Canada >>> . >>> >>> South Asia at the U of A: >>> >>> sas.ualberta.ca >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 23:42, Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> Happy New Year! >>>> A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and >>>> translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, >>>> in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? >>>> Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such >>>> texts! >>>> Many thanks and best wishes, >>>> Nataliya >>>> ----------- >>>> Nataliya Yanchevskaya >>>> Lecturer in Sanskrit >>>> PIIRS, Princeton University >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Eric Gurevitch >> >> PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and >> >> Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science >> >> University of Chicago >> >> gurevitch at uchicago.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 06:42:54 2020 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 12:12:54 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did we find " Sanskrit texts about translation and translators" ? On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 10:21 AM Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear All, > Thanks again for your input! Now my student has something to choose from. > As expected, it is mostly secondary literature, however, it might point > towards some unexpected Sanskrit sources ? we'll see. > > Answering to Matthew Kapstein, here is a very short bibliography of what I > have received off-list: > > Speziale, F. (2019). Ras?yana and Rasa??stra in the Persian Medical > Culture of South Asia. *History of Science in South Asia*, 7, 1-41. > https://doi.org/10.18732/hssa.v7i0.40 > Garzilli, E. (1996) (ed.), Translating, Translations, Translators from > India to the West (Harvard Oriental Series; Cambridge, MA: Harvard Univ.), > XVIII, > 190. > Doniger O'Flaherty, Wendy. (1987) On Translating Sanskrit myths. In: > Radice W. and Barbara Reynolds, eds. *The translator's art. Essays in > honour of Betty Radice.* 121-128. > Sarukkai, S. (2016), Translation As Method: Implications for History of > Science, *Indian Journal of History of Science*, 51/1: 105?17. > > The rest was sent via the list. > Thanks again and best wishes, > Nataliya > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 1:08 PM Hartmut Buescher > wrote: > >> Dear Nataliya (and her student), >> >> >> >> not yet mentioned by the contributors on this topic, there is quite a >> substantial >> >> book not directly thematizing the practice of translation, but the >> hermeneutical >> >> presuppositions for semantic understanding, hence translating. >> Benefitting one?s >> >> so-called ?prestructure of understanding? (in Gadamer?s terminology), >> i.e., what >> >> Dominic has pointed out as ?presuppositions [which] too often remain >> unexamined? >> >> (right at the beginning of his remarks ?On translation?), it investigates >> some of the >> >> underlying classical Indian principles of hermeneutics: >> >> >> >> Eivind Kahrs, *Indian Semantic Analysis. The *nirvacana* Tradition*, >> Cambridge 1998. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, Hartmut >> >> >> >> P.S.: My mind somehow getting drawn into reflections on this subject, >> fingers >> >> finding their way to the keyboard, I noted down some *ad hoc* >> reflections; following >> >> Dominic?s example, I send them along with this mail to the list as an >> attachment. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:13 PM Eric Gurevitch via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> In addition to the articles already mentioned, the following recent >>> (except for one) essays and books all contain useful analyses on how >>> translation was conceptualized both to and from Sanskrit ? although not in >>> free-standing texts. >>> >>> Cort, John E., ?Making It Vernacular in Agra: The Practice of >>> Translation by Seventeenth-Century Jains?, in *Tellings and Texts*, ed. >>> by Francesca Orsini and Katherine Butler Schofield, Music, Literature and >>> Performance in North India, 1st edn. (Open Book Publishers, 2015), pp. >>> 61?106 >>> >>> >>> >>> Fisher, Elaine. ?Multiregional and Multi-Linguistic V?ra?aivism: Change >>> and Continuity in an Early Devotional Tradition.? In *Modern Hinduism >>> in Text and Context*, edited by Lavanya Vemsani, 9?22. London, UK: >>> Bloomsbury Academic, 2018. >>> >>> >>> >>> Obrock, Luther. ?Muslim Mah?k?vyas: Sanskrit and Translation in the >>> Sultanates.? In *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India*, >>> edited by Tyler Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton Hawley, 58?76. >>> New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2018. >>> >>> >>> >>> Patel, Deven M., ?Source, Exegesis, and Translation: Sanskrit Commentary >>> and Regional Language Translation in South Asia?, *Journal of the >>> American Oriental Society*, 131 (2011), 245?66 >>> >>> >>> >>> Pingree, David, ?Islamic Astronomy in Sanskrit?, *Journal for the >>> History of Arabic Science*, 2 (1978), 315?30 >>> >>> >>> >>> Truschke, Audrey. *Culture of Encounters: Sanskrit at the Mughal Court*. >>> South Asia across the Disciplines. New York: Columbia University Press, >>> 2016. >>> >>> >>> >>> Williams, Tyler, ?Commentary as Translation: The Vair?gya V?nd of >>> Bhagvandas Niranjani?, in *Text and Tradition in Early Modern North >>> India*, ed. by Tyler Walker Williams, Anshu Malhotra, and John Stratton >>> Hawley, 2018, pp. 99?125 >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 2:13 PM Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Nataliya >>>> >>>> Has anyone mentioned mentioned the Buddhist tale, based on >>>> mistranslation between Middle Indian languages and/or Sanskrit, retold by >>>> John Brough, G?ndh?r? Dharmapada, pp. 45-6? It hinges on a >>>> misunderstanding of a Middle Indian form from the dvandva *udaya-vyaya*, >>>> ?arising and passing away?, as being from a tatpuru?a **udaka-baka*, >>>> ?heron of the water?. >>>> >>>> "This curious tale concerns the last days of Ananda, and tells how he >>>> chanced to overhear a certain monk reciting a Dharmapada-verse in the >>>> following manner (according to the Chinese versions): >>>> >>>> *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see a >>>> water-heron, it were better that he live only for one day, and see a >>>> water-heron.* >>>> >>>> ?My son?, said ?nanda, 'the Buddha did not say this. What he said was: >>>> >>>> *If a man were to live for a hundred years, and not see the principle >>>> of coming into existence and passing away, it were better . . . (and so >>>> forth).* >>>> >>>> The monk thereupon reported the matter to his teacher, who replied, >>>> ??nanda is an old fool. Go on reciting as before?. On hearing once more the >>>> same faulty recitation, ?nanda realized that it was futile to attempt to >>>> convince the monk of the error, since ail his seniors, to whom he might >>>> have appealed, had already entered Nirv??a. Being thus unable to do >>>> anything further to protect the Buddha?s words from corruption, he >>>> considered that there was no reason to delay his own Nirv??a? >>>> >>>> Valerie J Roebuck >>>> Manchester, UK >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3 Jan 2020, at 22:13, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Nataliya, >>>> >>>> I recently wrote some remarks on this subject in another context. I've >>>> extracted and lightly edited them here. (Attached) >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dominik >>>> -- >>>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >>>> >>>> , >>>> >>>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >>>> , >>>> >>>> Department of History and Classics >>>> >>>> , >>>> University of Alberta, Canada >>>> . >>>> >>>> South Asia at the U of A: >>>> >>>> sas.ualberta.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 at 23:42, Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> Happy New Year! >>>>> A student of mine wants to study Sanskrit texts about translation and >>>>> translators. She also asked me if I knew any short poems or jokes ? again, >>>>> in Sanskrit ? about translators. Could you please kindly suggest anything? >>>>> Frankly, I know nothing about this topic ? have never encountered such >>>>> texts! >>>>> Many thanks and best wishes, >>>>> Nataliya >>>>> ----------- >>>>> Nataliya Yanchevskaya >>>>> Lecturer in Sanskrit >>>>> PIIRS, Princeton University >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Eric Gurevitch >>> >>> PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and >>> >>> Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science >>> >>> University of Chicago >>> >>> gurevitch at uchicago.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markandeia at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 07:29:40 2020 From: markandeia at gmail.com (Nataliya Yanchevskaya) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 02:29:40 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Did we find " Sanskrit texts about translation and translators" ? > No, we didn't, however, my student might find something in the recommended secondary literature. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 10 11:41:56 2020 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 11:41:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Matthew, I believe it reads as follows: [siddham] nama? kalki [for kalk??] vijayat [for vijayet?] ]k?rttaye || Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Matthew Kapstein Sent: 09 January 2020 13:32 To: Nataliya Yanchevskaya ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Thank you, Nataliya, Your suggestion seems plausible to me on both paleographical and contextual grounds. Let?s see what others think. best, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:49:39 PM To: Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear Matthew, It seems that the first syllable with a ligature is -lki; the part after "vijaya" is probably "sa" (but "su" would make more sense ? hard to see though). The whole thing looks like: nama? kalki-vijaya-suk?rtaye ("sa" and "ta" are written almost like in Bengali, as well as "e" in "ye"). Is it possible in this case? Just my two cents, I hope a specialist in paleography will do better. Best wishes, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 6:29 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear friends, I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. What I see is: na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque back translation into Sanskrit, would be mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 11:42:39 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 17:12:39 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLbgpKzgpY3gpKbgpK3gpYfgpKbgpKrgpY3gpLDgpJXgpL7gpLYgKOCktuCkrOCljeCkpuCkquCljeCksOCkreClh+Ckpikgb2Yg4KSu4KS54KWH4KS24KWN4KS14KSw4KSV4KS14KS/?= Message-ID: Dear scholars, It gives me immense pleasure to present to you all the digitized version of the following work. ?abdabhedaprak??a (?abdaprabheda) of Mahe?varakavi. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/shabdabhedaprakasha_maheshvara/orig/shabdabhedaprakasha.txt This is a special dictionary mentioning the specific words which are routinely misspelt or which have ?/?/?, ?/? confusions etc. With regards, -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Jan 10 12:14:14 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 12:14:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you,Camillo, I am quite certain that Nataliya?s reading is precisely what was intended in the text, though the su is badly formed and the i in kirtaye partly obliterated. best, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Camillo Formigatti Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 12:41:56 PM To: Matthew Kapstein ; Nataliya Yanchevskaya ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear Matthew, I believe it reads as follows: [siddham] nama? kalki [for kalk??] vijayat [for vijayet?] ]k?rttaye || Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Matthew Kapstein Sent: 09 January 2020 13:32 To: Nataliya Yanchevskaya ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Thank you, Nataliya, Your suggestion seems plausible to me on both paleographical and contextual grounds. Let?s see what others think. best, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:49:39 PM To: Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear Matthew, It seems that the first syllable with a ligature is -lki; the part after "vijaya" is probably "sa" (but "su" would make more sense ? hard to see though). The whole thing looks like: nama? kalki-vijaya-suk?rtaye ("sa" and "ta" are written almost like in Bengali, as well as "e" in "ye"). Is it possible in this case? Just my two cents, I hope a specialist in paleography will do better. Best wishes, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 6:29 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear friends, I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. What I see is: na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque back translation into Sanskrit, would be mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 10 12:49:58 2020 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 12:49:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Matthew, I?ve reread the inscription (checking against Dimitrov?s tables of old Bengali) and now I believe that you can even read su-, so I?d tend to agree with Nataliya?s reading. However, I?m not fully convinced of the ?rta ligature, if we want to read -rta, first of all we?d have to expect the usual reduplication of the plosive after repha in Bengali manuscripts, i.e. ?rtta, which is not readable in the inscription. Moreover, that aksara does not really look like ?ta to me, but again as you say, whoever wrote it did not master the language and script fully. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Matthew Kapstein Sent: 10 January 2020 12:14 To: Camillo Formigatti ; Nataliya Yanchevskaya ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Thank you,Camillo, I am quite certain that Nataliya?s reading is precisely what was intended in the text, though the su is badly formed and the i in kirtaye partly obliterated. best, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Camillo Formigatti > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 12:41:56 PM To: Matthew Kapstein >; Nataliya Yanchevskaya >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear Matthew, I believe it reads as follows: [siddham] nama? kalki [for kalk??] vijayat [for vijayet?] ]k?rttaye || Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Matthew Kapstein > Sent: 09 January 2020 13:32 To: Nataliya Yanchevskaya >; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Thank you, Nataliya, Your suggestion seems plausible to me on both paleographical and contextual grounds. Let?s see what others think. best, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Nataliya Yanchevskaya > Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:49:39 PM To: Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] help with inscription Dear Matthew, It seems that the first syllable with a ligature is -lki; the part after "vijaya" is probably "sa" (but "su" would make more sense ? hard to see though). The whole thing looks like: nama? kalki-vijaya-suk?rtaye ("sa" and "ta" are written almost like in Bengali, as well as "e" in "ye"). Is it possible in this case? Just my two cents, I hope a specialist in paleography will do better. Best wishes, Nataliya On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 6:29 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear friends, I am wondering if some of those who are better paleographers than I might help me to read this. It comes from a Tibetan manuscript and so may not make coherent sense, as it is a Tibetan attempt to write Sanskrit. What I see is: na ma? ka? chche? vi ja ya bh?? [or t??] p? d? ya// The three syllables marked with interrogation are the ones that are giving me trouble. It is a line of homage addressed perhaps to a teacher named lha mthong lo tsA ba bshes gnyen rnam rgyal, whose proper name, in a calque back translation into Sanskrit, would be mitra-vijaya. His title lha mthong lo tsA ba ("translator from Lha mthong") would not normally be put into Sanskrit, but there's no fixed rule that it should not. However, the identification is not certain and, in any case, Tibetan teachers typically had several variant names. thanks in advance for your suggestions, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 16:26:39 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 17:26:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts about translators and translation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nataliya and those, who follow this thread, remembered yesterday that, long ago by now (?90ies of the last century), in the context of frequent talks with a friend, a serious Zen practitioner, I wrote a short piece (for private use) that, retrospectively seen, also elucidates variations (internal, intersubjective, traditional, trans- and cross-cultural), levels and other aporetic aspects (the implicit, the unsaid, the suggestive [*dhvani* ? la Abhinavagupta], the ironic) that may be associated with the inherently complex nature of translation and the tasks of transport it is expected at best to achieve. Though due to the original context of its production, it is only indirectly related to the cultural sphere of Sanskrit, it is qua allusions nevertheless concerned with ?the middle?, Madhyamaka, and with what N?g?rjuna called *prapa?copa?ama* (?the coming to rest of lifeworld-proliferations?), a notion subsequently taken over by Gau?ap?da (cf. Bhattacharya?s & Bouy?s comments on GK II.35). And there are other ones. If not all of these allusions may with equal ease be *translated* into adequate understanding by the individual reader?s self-referentially narrative capacities executing hermeneutical processes, no problem: this might then be taken as a direct, empirically reproduced, verification of Dominic?s assertion (as referred to) about the translator?s ?presuppositions?. Initially hesitant to send ?Half a Cloud? to the list, yet as it does in a less than dead serious manner (in this respect complying with Nataliya?s request) illuminate general aporias *all* Indologists and Buddhologists are confronted with, if the most significant classical Indian hermeneutical perspectives related to first person perspective dimensions have to be translated into cultural spheres dominated by third person perspective paradigms ? and probably more or less sparked by Dominic?s remarks on translation ?, it?s now being sent. Best wishes for a productive weekend, Hartmut On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:30 AM Nataliya Yanchevskaya via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Did we find " Sanskrit texts about translation and translators" ? >> > > No, we didn't, however, my student might find something in the recommended > secondary literature. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Half-A-Cloud--.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 40774 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 18:24:40 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 20 23:54:40 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Requests for scanned lexica - 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Namaste, Because of help from a scholar off list, I now have scans of 3 and 9 too. It seems that 4, 6 and 10 are not printed yet / unavailable. On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 08:46, Dhaval Patel wrote: > Dear Scholars, > > I have received books 1, 2, 4,7 and 8. > I thank all scholars who have helped me on and off list. > > I still need the following books. > 3. Pary?ya?abdaratna of Dhana?jaya > 5. Bh?riprayoga of Padman?bhadatta > 6. ?abdaratn?kara of Mah?pa > 9. Anek?rthan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri > 10. ?abd?nek?rtha of Har?ak?rtis?ri > > With regards, > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 at 21:56, Dhaval Patel wrote: > >> Respected Scholars, >> >> If any one of you have access to any of the following lexica in scanned >> format / possibility of obtaining a scanned copy, kindly forward it to me >> please. >> >> 1. Anek?rthadhvanima?jar? of Mah?k?apa?aka >> 2. Dhara?iko?a or Anek?rthas?ra of Dhara?id?sa >> 3. Pary?ya?abdaratna of Dhana?jaya >> 4. ?abdabhedaprak??a of Mahe?vara >> 5. Bh?riprayoga of Padman?bhadatta >> 6. ?abdaratn?kara of Mah?pa >> 7. ?abdaratn?kara of V?manabha??a B??a >> 8. ??rad?y?khyan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri >> 9. Anek?rthan?mam?l? of Har?ak?rtis?ri >> 10. ?abd?nek?rtha of Har?ak?rtis?ri >> >> >> -- >> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S >> Collector and District Magistrate, Surat >> www.sanskritworld.in >> > > > -- > Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S > Collector and District Magistrate, Surat > www.sanskritworld.in > -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 21:19:39 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 20 02:49:39 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKjgpL7gpKjgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKPgpLXgpLjgpILgpJXgpY3gpLfgpYfgpKogb2Yg4KSV4KWH4KS24KS14KS44KWN4KS14KS+4KSu4KS/4KSo4KWN?= Message-ID: Dear scholars, It is my pleasure to present before you the next lexicon. N?n?rth?r?avasa?k?epa of Ke?avasv?min. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/nanartharnavasankshepa_keshavasvami/orig/nanartharnavasankshepa.txt Acknowledgement - The proof reading of google OCR data has been painstakingly been done by Mr. Pradeep Rastogi. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Sun Jan 12 11:28:46 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 20 16:58:46 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Article_Pdf_request/_THE_ANALYTICAL_METHOD_OF_NAVYA-NY=C4=80YA?= Message-ID: Dear all I am looking for the article pdf with following details. I will be grateful to you fir this favor. THE ANALYTICAL METHOD OF NAVYA-NY?YA TOSHIHIRO WADA Journal of Indian Philosophy Vol. 29, No. 5/6 (December 2001), pp. 519-530 Thanks and regards KP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 02:48:43 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 20 08:18:43 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Article_Pdf_request/_THE_ANALYTICAL_METHOD_OF_NAVYA-NY=C4=80YA?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Andrey, Lubomir, Dean Micheal, Madhav Deshpande, Herman Tull, Suhas and Piotr Balcerowicz for sending the article. On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 10:58 PM Herman Tull wrote: > Dear Sir, > > If you've not received the article, attached is a copy. > > with regards, > > Herman Tull > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 6:29 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all >> I am looking for the article pdf with following details. I will be >> grateful to you fir this favor. >> >> >> THE ANALYTICAL METHOD OF NAVYA-NY?YA >> TOSHIHIRO WADA >> Journal of Indian Philosophy >> Vol. 29, No. 5/6 (December 2001), pp. 519-530 >> >> >> Thanks and regards >> KP >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Herman Tull > Princeton, NJ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdj at austin.utexas.edu Mon Jan 13 22:14:41 2020 From: drdj at austin.utexas.edu (Donald R Davis) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 20 22:14:41 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Digital_Edition_of_the_Mit=C4=81k=E1=B9=A3ar=C4=81_of_Vij=C3=B1=C4=81ne=C5=9Bvara?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am very pleased to announce the immediate availability of a searchable, digital edition of the Mit?k?ar? of Vij??ne?vara, the twelfth-century commentary on the Y?j?avalkya-dharma??stra. The text in the Nirnaya Sagar edition was transcribed by Amy Hyne-Sutherland, Nikola Raji?, and myself. Recently, Patrick Olivelle took the time to check the transcription and to color code its external citations and authors mentioned. Though we know errors still remain, we hope the availability of this major dharma??stra commentary in digital form will facilitate new and more research in this area and encourage the transcription of other such texts. Kindly let us know if you find corrections to be made. We will make the text available at other repositories in due course. You can find the link under ?Sanskrit? on the Language Resources page of UT-Austin?s South Asia Institute: https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/southasia/language-resources/languages.php Happy searching, Don Davis (and Patrick Olivelle) Department of Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Tue Jan 14 04:09:00 2020 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rocher, Rosane D) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 20 04:09:00 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Digital_Edition_of_the_Mit=C4=81k=E1=B9=A3ar=C4=81_of_Vij=C3=B1=C4=81ne=C5=9Bvara?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Don, Congratulations and thanks to you, Patrick, and your crew for this wonderful resource! Well done! Rosane On 1/13/20 11:14 PM, Donald R Davis via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Colleagues, I am very pleased to announce the immediate availability of a searchable, digital edition of the Mit?k?ar? of Vij??ne?vara, the twelfth-century commentary on the Y?j?avalkya-dharma??stra. The text in the Nirnaya Sagar edition was transcribed by Amy Hyne-Sutherland, Nikola Raji?, and myself. Recently, Patrick Olivelle took the time to check the transcription and to color code its external citations and authors mentioned. Though we know errors still remain, we hope the availability of this major dharma??stra commentary in digital form will facilitate new and more research in this area and encourage the transcription of other such texts. Kindly let us know if you find corrections to be made. We will make the text available at other repositories in due course. You can find the link under ?Sanskrit? on the Language Resources page of UT-Austin?s South Asia Institute: https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/southasia/language-resources/languages.php Happy searching, Don Davis (and Patrick Olivelle) Department of Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elisa.freschi at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 07:19:32 2020 From: elisa.freschi at gmail.com (elisa freschi) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 20 08:19:32 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Digital_Edition_of_the_Mit=C4=81k=E1=B9=A3ar=C4=81_of_Vij=C3=B1=C4=81ne=C5=9Bvara?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6BEA9E86-1C6B-4FAF-8773-A69C07A10BD4@gmail.com> Many thanks to all people involved. This will make our lives easier and our research more focused! Congratulations, elisa Dr. Elisa Freschi (Tue to Thu) PI FWF Project V 400 and WWTF Project MA 16_028 Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstra?e 11-13, 2nd floor NEW ADDRESS! 1020 Vienna, Austria Phone ++43 (0)1 51581 6433 Fax ++43 (0)1 51581 6410 (Fri to Tue) Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies University of Vienna Spitalgasse 2, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria Phone ++43 (0)1 4277 43505 http://elisafreschi.com http://oeaw.academia.edu/elisafreschi > On 13 Jan 2020, at 23:14, Donald R Davis via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I am very pleased to announce the immediate availability of a searchable, digital edition of the Mit?k?ar? of Vij??ne?vara, the twelfth-century commentary on the Y?j?avalkya-dharma??stra. The text in the Nirnaya Sagar edition was transcribed by Amy Hyne-Sutherland, Nikola Raji?, and myself. Recently, Patrick Olivelle took the time to check the transcription and to color code its external citations and authors mentioned. Though we know errors still remain, we hope the availability of this major dharma??stra commentary in digital form will facilitate new and more research in this area and encourage the transcription of other such texts. Kindly let us know if you find corrections to be made. We will make the text available at other repositories in due course. > > You can find the link under ?Sanskrit? on the Language Resources page of UT-Austin?s South Asia Institute: > https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/southasia/language-resources/languages.php > > Happy searching, > > Don Davis (and Patrick Olivelle) > Department of Asian Studies > University of Texas at Austin > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 14 17:08:23 2020 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 20 17:08:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Book Announcement In-Reply-To: <565520749.13263527.1579021703028.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <565520749.13263527.1579021703028@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Colleagues, ? I am happy to announce that?An Introduction to Jain Philosophy?by Parveen Jain is now available on?Amazon?or through the?book?s website.?Drawing on an extraordinary collection of writings and discourses by ?c?rya Sushil Kumar and on the author?s own self-studies as a lifelong practitioner, the book distills the fundamental tenets of Jain philosophy for both academic and non-academic audiences.?An Introduction to Jain Philosophy?presents a great overview of what Jain thinkers have to say about the universal issues of the human condition ? and how we might understand and enhance our relationship with other living beings as a powerful and effective spiritual journey.?This would be a fantastic primary source for an upper level undergraduate course on Jainism or modern Indian philosophy and a nice addition to either your personal or institutional library. | | | | Book ? Parveen Jain | | | ? All the best, Jeff Dr. Jeffery D. Long Professor of Religion and Asian Studies Elizabethtown CollegeElizabethtown, PA https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong Series Editor,?Explorations in Indic Traditions: Theological, Ethical, and PhilosophicalLexington Books "One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." ?(Holy Mother Sarada Devi) "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Jan 14 20:32:35 2020 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 20 20:32:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indexes of Citations Message-ID: <0BCA1C0F-9CF3-4D0D-A1B7-16A3336B2EA7@austin.utexas.edu> Dear Friends: With apologies for cross-listing ? and following upon the searchable transcript of Vij??ne?vara?s Mit?k?ar? commentary on the Y?j?avalkya Sm?ti, which Don Davis announced a few days ago, I want to alert you to two Indexes of Citations found in that same text, and another one of Devana Bha??a?s Sm?ticandrik?, perhaps the best Dharmanibandha. You can access them at: https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/southasia/language-resources/languages.php Just scroll down to ?Sanskrit? and you will find them. Hopefully, these will be useful for your own research. With best wishes, Patrick Olivelle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Tue Jan 14 23:54:00 2020 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 20 23:54:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with 'Vedic' mathematics Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, An outstanding student of mine, Lila-manjari Dasi, has asked for help with decoding a manuscript on 'Vedic' mathematics. If you can help, please respond to Lila at: lila.manjari.dasi.108 at gmail.com. Thanks in advance, McComas ---- Here is the message from Lila and her collaborator, Kenneth Williams: Sri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji (1884 - 1960) was a Shankaracharya at Puri who in addition to his many other achievements reconstructed an ancient system of mathematics which he called 'Vedic Mathematics'. This system is extraordinary in its range and simplicity. The branches of mathematics are shown to be unified in unexpected ways and the system offers a new approach to mathematics education, being easy, natural and very much encouraging creativity. Tirthaji write sixteen books expounding this system but these were somehow lost and we have only one introductory book which he wrote in his later life. He also wrote examples and notes in an old diary. Those of us researching this system are seeking to reconstruct his reconstruction, from the one book. But there are some intriguing notes in Sanskrit in the diary which could shed valuable light onto some of the things mentioned in the book but not explained. We would like to ask for your assistance in translating these short sections of Sanskrit. There is no doubt that there are applications of Vedic mathematics yet to be discovered and Tirthaji's Sanskrit notes could be key to opening up these areas for research. Please find attached four pages from the diary. The text is handwritten and rather unclear in places but even if you can only give the gist of the meaning or some words used it may help us to interpret what is being said. https://drive.google.com/open?id=18fUAviACP1du3fv8Sj43M0kR0DJDt7br More specifically, the text in need of translation is: Page 133: The devan?gar? between the stamp and the equations Page 146 (on spherical triangles): The two half lines devan?gar? above the equations at the bottom Pages 139-140 (on astronomy): All the DN below the stamps Another attachment is with the 16 VM s?tras: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JgtOK4ZGHtU18fIyONYlLZ8c0KjGyLEy In case there would be math terms among the scanned scribbles that you might not be familiar with, I thought you could use the s?tras as a reference - to help recognize the DN of some terms that might be found there as well (if that made sense). Other Sanskrit maths terms used in T?rtha's book are: Apara - multiplier (P.36) Purva - multiplicand (P.36) Sunyam - zero Anka - coefficient (P.157) Dhwaja Ghata - power (P.157) Purva - original index (P.191) Caramanka - units digit (P.221) Sahayak - auxiliary (fraction) (P.255) Vestana - osculator (P.273) Viparita - negative osculator (P.286) Dwandwa Yoga - duplex (P.305) [cid:400c0b64-18ae-4dbe-b799-66a871ea3cc6] McComas Taylor Associate Professor Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University WSC Website| McC Website Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 14:46:57 2020 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 20 23:46:57 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Glass by M.G. Dikshit (1969) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear members of the list, I wonder if anyone may have (and is willing to share) a pdf of Dikshit M.G. 1969. History of Indian glass. University of Bombay. Bombay. Many thanks in advance! best, Andrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samuel.wright at ahduni.edu.in Thu Jan 16 11:03:04 2020 From: samuel.wright at ahduni.edu.in (Samuel Wright) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 16:33:04 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PDF_of_=C5=9A=C4=81hendravil=C4=81sa_(V._Raghavan)?= Message-ID: Dear List, Might anyone have a PDF of this publication? ??hendravil?sa: a poem on the life of King ??haji of Tanjore (1684-1710) ?r?dhara Ve?ka?e?a; V Raghavan Tanjore: T.M.S.S.M. Library, Tiruchi: The Kalyan Press 1952. Many thanks, Sam Ahmedabad University -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samuel.wright at ahduni.edu.in Thu Jan 16 11:33:39 2020 From: samuel.wright at ahduni.edu.in (Samuel Wright) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 17:03:39 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_PDF_of_=C5=9A=C4=81hendravil=C4=81sa_(V._Raghavan)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With exceptional speed, I have received the PDF off-list, Thanks, Sam -- On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 4:33 PM Samuel Wright wrote: > Dear List, > > Might anyone have a PDF of this publication? > > ??hendravil?sa: a poem on the life of King ??haji of Tanjore (1684-1710) > ?r?dhara Ve?ka?e?a; V Raghavan > Tanjore: T.M.S.S.M. Library, Tiruchi: The Kalyan Press 1952. > > Many thanks, > Sam > > Ahmedabad University > -- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 15:36:21 2020 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 17:36:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions - new volume, and the previous ones Message-ID: <4A96C999-D346-43C9-A042-62E796325896@gmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: advertisementforCISIvolumes1-3.2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 77008 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Thu Jan 16 19:29:14 2020 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 20:29:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Collected Papers on the Cultural and Intellectual History of Kashmir. By Walter Slaje [Publication Announcement] Message-ID: <20200116202914.Horde.58cFIMSUU6NeutAz0fN6uOb@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear colleagues, ? I am pleased to draw your attention to the following publication: ? Walter Slaje: /Kleine Schriften zur kaschmirischen Kultur- und Geistesgeschichte/. Edited by J?rgen Hanneder, Andreas Pohlus, and Roland Steiner. Marburg: Indica et Tibetica 2019. Two volumes. xxxii, 883 p. ? ?These two volumes assemble Walter Slaje's papers on the cultural and intellectual history of Kashmir up to the year 2019. The contributions deal with topics such as studies of manuscripts and material culture, syntax, literature as well as political and religious history and philosophy. Special emphasis is laid on Slaje's fundamental work on the /Mok?op?ya/Yogav?si??ha/ and the subsequent literature, as well as on his authoritative studies of local Kashmiri historiography, the /R?jatara?gi??s/. Also included is a complete list of Slaje?s publications as well as various indexes (word index; texts; index locorum; index of names and subjects).? ? http://www.iet-verlag.de/ser_ext.html ? ? With kind regards Roland Steiner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 21:24:41 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 14:24:41 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: INDOLOGY post from manjushree42@gmail.com requires approval In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Manjushree Hegde To: indology at list.indology.info Cc: Bcc: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 11:32:56 +0530 Subject: Call for Participation: 3-Day Workshop on Textual Criticism Dear list, We are pleased to announce that Amrita Darshanam ? International Centre for Spiritual Studies ? is organizing a three-day workshop on ?Textual Criticism? from 14-16 February, 2020, in Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Coimbatore. The workshop aims to serve as an introduction to the general principles and methodological considerations of critical editions, the history of textual criticism, the specificities of textual transmission and different philological traditions, digital tools for scholarly editions, etc. In particular, participants will work on: 1. A part of the 10th chapter of the *?ivadharmottara*, a seventh-century work which is transmitted in a large number of manuscripts, particularly from Nepal, 2. An unpublished chapter of the *Sarvaj??nottaratantra*, a seventh-century work that requires to be reconstructed using a twelfth-century commentary on the work by Aghora?iva (*Sarvaj??nottarav?tti* ), 3. A section of the *Raghuva??a *with the tenth-century commentary of Vallabhadeva as transmitted in manuscripts from Kashmir, 4. A case of a codex unicus: Brahma?ambhu?s tenth-century ritual manual surviving in a single manuscript in Calcutta. *Resource Persons:* *Prof. Dominic Goodall *, Professor (Directeur d??tudes), ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient (EFEO), Pondicherry. *Dr. S. A. S. Sarma , *Research Officer, ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient (EFEO), Pondicherry. *Date*: 14-16 February, 2020 *Venue*: Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Coimbatore. The workshop is open to all interested. *To register, *visit: www.amrita.edu/ad/twtc Kindly refer to the brochure or the website for further information. Regards, Manjushree Hegde, Assistant Professor, Amrita Darshanam (ICSS), Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Coimbatore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 22:01:20 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 17:01:20 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_mah=C4=81k=C4=81labhairav=C4=81=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADakam?= Message-ID: Would any list members know the scriptural source or any other information about the mah?k?labhairav???akam (see following link) https://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_shiva/mahAkAlabhairavAShTakam.html?lang=iast Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Thu Jan 16 22:24:23 2020 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 22:24:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Glass by M.G. Dikshit (1969) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Andrey, No, I do not, and will be grateful if you can share in case you manage to obtain a pdf. In the meantime, two related references that have probably not yet come to your attention: J?kl, Ji??. 2017. ?Liquor in Glass Vessels: A Note on Glassware in Pre-Islamic Java and on Its Socio-Religious Symbolism.? Archipel: ?tudes interdisciplinaires sur le monde Insulindien 93: 15?29. https://doi.org/10.4000/archipel.404. Perret, Daniel, and Zulkifli Jaafar. 2014. Ancient Glassware in Malaysia: The Pengkalan Bujang Collection. Kuala Lumpur: Department of Museums Malaysia. Despite focus on Southeast Asia, both are heavily concerned with production and use of glassware in ancient Indian. Best wishes, Arlo ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Andrey Klebanov via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:46 PM To: Caley Smith via INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Glass by M.G. Dikshit (1969) Dear members of the list, I wonder if anyone may have (and is willing to share) a pdf of Dikshit M.G. 1969. History of Indian glass. University of Bombay. Bombay. Many thanks in advance! best, Andrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 22:53:36 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 15:53:36 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Uncaught bounce notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Originally posted by Prof. Michaels, but delayed for technical reasons: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Michaels, Axel" To: INDOLOGY Cc: Bcc: Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:34:56 +0000 Subject: Orbituary Pt. Aithal Orbituary *Pandit Dr Parameswara Aithal* 18 January 1934 ? 3 January 2020 [image: /var/folders/6z/5b68bb_s6sd73xnh7ymvnrv00000gq/T/com.microsoft.Word/Content.MSO/308ED7AE.tmp] Pandit Dr. Parameswara Aithal came to the South Asia Institute of the University of Heidelberg on the recommendation of the London Indologist and legal historian J. Duncan M. Derrett. Already in 1968, my predecessors G?nter-Dietz Sontheimer (1933-1992) and Hermann Berger (1926 - 2005) approached him at a conference in Madras. Two years later he arrived in Heidelberg with his wife, where he remained until his death, although after his retirement he stayed in India for many months every year until the end. He was born in Kota (Karnataka) in a traditional family of priests and Sanskrit scholars. There he also received a traditional training as a pandit and as a Vedic priest, which included memorizing many texts, especially the ?rauta, Grhya and Dharma?astra literatures, but also the practise of ?rauta and G?hya rituals. For further education he attended the Vani Vilasini Sanskrit School in Saligrama not far from his home for five years, and Maharaja's Sanskrit College in Mysore, where he graduated with the highest honours in 1957. In 1961 he received his BA at the A.P. College of Arts and Commerce in Bangalore, in 1965 his MA at Karnatak University, Dharwad, and in 1970 his Ph.D. at the same university with the thesis "Non-Rigvedic citations in the A?val?yana ?rautas?tra" (published Varanasi 1986). During his studies he worked as a pandit and curator of the manuscript collection at the renowned Adyar Library and Research Centre in Madras until he moved to Heidelberg. Pt. Aithal made a great name for himself as a researcher, especially through his work on Vedic auxiliary texts and the publication of manuscript catalogues. Particularly noteworthy are his critical edition of *A?val?yana-G**?**hyas?tra-Bh?**?**yam* (Madras 1980), *Veda-lak**?**a**?**a: Vedic Ancillary Literature* (Stuttgart 1991, Delhi: 1993) and *A Descriptive Catalogue of the Sanskrit and other Indian Manuscripts of the Chandra Shum Shere Collection in the Bodleian Library *(Oxford University Press, 1992). A detailed list of his writings can be found here ( https://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/aithal/aithal.php?publikation) and in the volume *The Pandit - Traditional Scholarship in India* (Delhi: Manohar, 2001), edited in his honour, which appeared after a Heidelberg conference and contains contributions by Ashok Aklujkar, Johannes Bronkhorst, Madhav Deshpande, Harry Falk, Monika Horstmann, Christopher Z. Minkowski, and Albrecht Wezler. Everybody who experienced Pt. Aithal was deeply impressed by his broad encyclopaedic knowledge and his high intelligence. He knew how to recite many texts, including the local encyclopaedias, by heart. His traditional understanding of Sanskrit grammar was reflected in numerous popular courses, which he held soon after his arrival in Heidelberg. His students virtually adored him, as he proved to be a teacher who was tirelessly there for them. Unforgettable was his great modesty, his human warmth and his unobtrusive humour. Pt. Aithal's move from a village in India to Heidelberg was inimitably captured by Herrmann Berger: ?It must have been an unexpected and exciting change for him to leave India and the idyllic atmosphere of his home in Karnataka, the Ashram where he spoke Sanskrit as the language of everyday life, and his training as a ?rauta priest. However, in a remarkably short period of time he and his family became true Heidelbergers and he was able to teach his students in excellent German. He fully accepted the Western approach to philology, at the same time remaining faithful to panditship and Indian thinking? (Foreword in the above mentioned volume). In fact, Dr. Aithal has never forgotten or denied his Indian origins throughout his life. How fitting, then, are words on the obituary in the Rhein-Neckar Zeitung: "He lived in several worlds, now he is gone from this world." Pt. Aithal leaves behind his lovely wife Yashoda, three children and three grandchildren, all of whom have settled in Heidelberg or other places in Germany. With the death of Pandit Aithal, the South Asia Institute loses its only honorary member so far, a highly esteemed, sincere colleague, a great Sanskrit scholar of the old (Indian) school and a true philanthropist. It will honour his memory. Axel Michaels, 7 January 2020 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3601 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 23:03:58 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 20 16:03:58 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Bounce action notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Samuel Wright via INDOLOGY Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 16:33:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of ??hendravil?sa (V. Raghavan) Dear List, Might anyone have a PDF of this publication? ??hendravil?sa: a poem on the life of King ??haji of Tanjore (1684-1710) ?r?dhara Ve?ka?e?a; V Raghavan Tanjore: T.M.S.S.M. Library, Tiruchi: The Kalyan Press 1952. Many thanks, Sam Ahmedabad University -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Heleen.DeJonckheere at UGent.be Fri Jan 17 15:48:46 2020 From: Heleen.DeJonckheere at UGent.be (Heleen De Jonckheere) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 20 15:48:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP Conference on Jain Literary Practices of Transcreation, 21-22 May 2020, Ghent, Belgium Message-ID: <79667fe3c9704f21a80de3a35014ea66@xmail101.UGent.be> Dear members of Indology, The Department of Indian Languages and Cultures at Ghent University is pleased to announce its conference 'Jain Practices of Literary Transcreation', held at Ghent University, Belgium on the 21st and 22nd of May 2020. We invite scholars to present on the theme of translation, transcreation or adaptation of literary works by Jain authors. The full Call for Papers can be consulted in attachment. Those interested in participating should send their title and abstract (max. 300 words) to Ev.Declercq at ugent.be and heleen.dejonckheere at ugent.be, by the 15th of March 2020. Kind Regards, The conference organizers Eva De Clercq Heleen De Jonckheere Heleen De Jonckheere Doctoral Researcher (BOF) Dept. Languages and Cultures Ghent University Blandijnberg 2 - 9000 Ghent - Room 150.009 Heleen.DeJonckheere at Ugent.be www.jainastudies.ugent.be -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CFP_JainLiteraryPracticesofTranscreation_Ghent21-22May.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 67558 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Sat Jan 18 15:15:53 2020 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 20 00:15:53 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Glass by M.G. Dikshit (1969) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9cf6ed6f-e0ee-44a8-8d33-632b68d2b1b8@Spark> Dear Arlo, Thanks a lot for both references! I wasn?t aware of them, of course. Unfortunately, I wasn?t able to get hold of a pdf (or the actual book) yet, but I?ll surely send it to you (and others who requested off-list) if I?ll find or make it myself in the future. best, Andrey On Jan 17, 2020 07:24 +0900, Arlo Griffiths , wrote: > Dear Andrey, > > No, I do not, and will be grateful if you can share in case you manage to obtain a pdf. In the meantime, two related references that have probably not yet come to your attention: > > J?kl, Ji??. 2017. ?Liquor in Glass Vessels: A Note on Glassware in Pre-Islamic Java and on Its Socio-Religious Symbolism.? Archipel: ?tudes interdisciplinaires sur le monde Insulindien 93: 15?29. https://doi.org/10.4000/archipel.404. > Perret, Daniel, and Zulkifli Jaafar. 2014. Ancient Glassware in Malaysia: The Pengkalan Bujang Collection. Kuala Lumpur: Department of Museums Malaysia. > > Despite focus on Southeast Asia, both are heavily concerned with production and use of glassware in ancient Indian. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo > > > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Andrey Klebanov via INDOLOGY > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:46 PM > To: Caley Smith via INDOLOGY > Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Glass by M.G. Dikshit (1969) > > Dear members of the list, > > I wonder if anyone may have (and is willing to share) a pdf of Dikshit M.G. 1969. History of Indian glass. University of Bombay. Bombay. > Many thanks in advance! > > best, > Andrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yamabe at waseda.jp Sun Jan 19 12:23:16 2020 From: yamabe at waseda.jp (YAMABE Nobuyoshi) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 20 12:23:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lecture>Giuseppe Vignato at Waseda: "Reading Rock Monasteries -- Kucha as a Case Study, " Feb 4, 2020 Message-ID: <537F1BC1-E506-4111-9424-343FDE94C274@waseda.jp> Dear Colleagues, Please excuse cross-posting. On behalf of my colleague, Professor HIDA Romi, who is not on this list, I announce the following lecture by Professor Giuseppe Vignato at Waseda University on Tuesday, February 4, 2020. Title: Reading Rock Monasteries -- Kucha as a Case Study Speaker: Professor Giuseppe Vignato, Peking University Time: 3pm--5pm Venue: Waseda University, Toyana Campus, Buliding 33, 6th floor, Meeting Room No. 11 Abstract: In this lecture I will show how rock monasteries were organic wholes aimed at satisfying all the functions required for the life of the monastery itself. In the last 20 years I have been investigating several elements and the interaction among different units within the monasteries that are useful to understand rock monasteries as complete religious settlements. To study a rock monastery in its entirety aims at re-creating the milieu in which monastic life and Buddhist worship took place. Crucial concepts, some introduced in the past and some being presently investigated, will be presented in this lecture; they will include: boundaries and gates, connective architectures, districts, and groups. A representative cave will be presented which will illustrate the likely interaction between space and function in the rock monasteries. About the Speaker: Giuseppe Vignato is Professor of School of Archaeology and Museology, Peking University. Along with his main interest in the archaeology of Buddhist rock monasteries in Kucha, he teaches Mediterranean Archaeology and the Archaeology of the Silk Road as well. He has published widely on the Archaeology of Buddhist sites in Kucha and Turfan, such as Quduan yu Zuhe - Qiuci Shiiku Siyuan Weizhi de Kaoguxue Tansuo (Districts and Groups - An Archaeological Investigation of the Rock Monasteries of Kucha, Shanghai Classic Publishing House: 2013) and Archaeological and Visual Sources of Meditation in the Ancient Monasteries of Kuca (with Angela F. Howard, Brill: 2014). The lecture will be given in English and translated into Japanese by Dr. HIYAMA Satomi. It is free of charge and open to the public. Anybody interested will be welcome. Nobuyoshi Yamabe Waseda University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From racleach at googlemail.com Sun Jan 19 12:30:52 2020 From: racleach at googlemail.com (Robert Leach) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 20 12:30:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Siglinde Dietz article on Bower manuscript Message-ID: Dear List members, I'd be very grateful if anyone could provide me with a soft copy of the following article. The book it's in appears to be hard to come by. S. Dietz "The Meaning of k?tya-k?khorda-mantra-ve???a" in *Dharmad?ta. M?langes offerts au V?n?rable Th?ch Huy?n-Vi*, edited by D. T. Dhammaratana & B. P?s?dika, ?ditions You-Feng, 1997. Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help! Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Sun Jan 19 16:23:43 2020 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 20 16:23:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] English short hand? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1086DFC1-D2CB-49BE-9587-E68BE3B915E2@fas.harvard.edu> Dear All, A Sunday question that I had wanted to ask for long: Does anyone among you (or your friends) read English shorthand of c.1914? We have an unpublished translation by Keith of the Ka?ha Upani?ad that he had sent to Lanman in 1914. Unfortunately it went down with the Lusitania then. But a handwritten ms. in shorthand survives. I would like to publish it, eventually. So any help is welcome. Bess wishes, Michael ============ Michael Witzel Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, Dept. of South Asian Studies, 1 Bow Street, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA ph. 1 - 617 496 2990 witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sun Jan 19 17:26:52 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 20 12:26:52 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Translation of kalahaka Message-ID: Dear list members, Can anyone help me with the translation of kalahaka in line 1 verse 8 of the mah?k?labhairav???aka? (I'm assuming hasitakalahaka? is hasita-kalahaka?) Verse 8 of the mah?k?labhairav???aka? is: ha? ha? ha? ha?sa-y?na? hasitakalahaka?, mukta-yog???ah?sa? dha? dha? dha? netra-r?pa?, ?ira-muku?a-ja??-bandha bandh?grahastam ? ta? ta? ta? ta?k?n?da?, tri-da?a-la?ala?a?, k?ma-garv?pah?ra? bhu? bhu? bhu? bh?ta-n?tha?, pra?amata satata?, bhairava? k?etra-p?lam ? 8? iti mah?k?labhairav???aka? samp?r?am ? Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlighthiser at gmail.com Sun Jan 19 17:39:20 2020 From: tlighthiser at gmail.com (Timothy P. Lighthiser) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 20 10:39:20 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PDF_of_Emmerick''s_=E2=80=9CIndo-Iranian_Concepts_of_Disease_and_Cure"?= Message-ID: Hello! Does anyone happen to have a PDF of Emmerick's article (below) that they'd be willing to share with me and other list members (with whom I'd be happy to forward it to afterwards)? Thanks in advance! t ?Indo-Iranian Concepts of Disease and Cure,? *Journal of the European ?yurvedic Society* 3, 1993c, pp. 72-93. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Mon Jan 20 08:29:16 2020 From: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 20 21:29:16 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Fwd: RIDE 11 - Reviews of Tools & Environments for Digital Scholarly Editions] In-Reply-To: <6f362ee3-8e6e-1968-401c-d75780a474a8@unive.it> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, This may be of interest. Best, Richard -------- Forwarded Message --------From: Franz Fischer < franz.fischer at UNIVE.IT>Reply-To: Franz Fischer To: TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDUSubject: RIDE 11 - Reviews of Tools & Environments for Digital Scholarly EditionsDate: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 08:37:20 +0100Mailer: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 Dear TEI community, We are happy to announce the eleventh issue of the review journal RIDE, which has been published since 2014 by the Institute for Documentology and Scholarly Editing. This issue is the first in the RIDE-series dedicated to ?Tools and Environments for Digital Scholarly Editing?. Initiators and guest editors of the issue are Anna-Maria Sichani and Elena Spadini. The idea behind this new thematic focus in the RIDE-series is that software is part of the scholarly ecosystem and as such should be valued and reviewed. Furthermore, we hope that reviews of tools and environments can be useful for those involved in the creation of scholarly editions, to find the right software for each specific need. All reviews reflect a detailed catalogue of evaluation criteria ( https://www.i-d-e.de/publikationen/weitereschriften/criteria-tools-version-1/ ) and are accompanied by a summarizing factsheet (see "Meta" rubric of each article). RIDE 11 issue includes five reviews in English (4) and French (1) that critically assess Tools and Environments for Digital Scholarly Editing. For your convenience, this is the table of contents: * Andrew Dunning: Reledmac. Typesetting technology-independent critical editions with LaTeX, by Andrew Dunning; https://ride.i-d-e.de/issue-11/reledmac/ * Christian Griesinger: Review of the T?binger System von Textverarbeitungs-Programmen (TUSTEP); https://ride.i-d-e.de/issue-11/tustep/ * Elina Leblanc: Omeka Classic. Un environnement de recherche pour les ?ditions scientifiques num?riques; https://ride.i-d-e.de/issue-11/omeka/ * Andreas Mertgens: Ediarum. A toolbox for editors and developers; https://ride.i-d-e.de/issue-11/ediarum/ * Torsten Roeder: Juxta Web Service, LERA, and Variance Viewer. Web based collation tools for TEI; https://ride.i-d-e.de/issue-11/web-based-collation-tools/ All reviews can be accessed for free here: http://ride.i-d-e.de/issues/issue-11 Enjoy the RIDE! On behalf of the editors, Franz Fischer -- Franz FischerDirettore, Venice Centre for Digital & Public Humanities (VeDPH)Dipartimento di Studi UmanisticiUniversit? Ca' FoscariPalazzo Malcanton Marcor?Dorsoduro 3484/D - 30123 Venezia Tel.: +39 041 234 6266 (ufficio), +39 041 234 9863 (segreteria del centro) https://www.unive.it/vedph https://www.i-d-e.de/ https://journal.digitalmedievalist.org/ -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org https://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Jan 20 17:10:10 2020 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 20 09:10:10 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] My verse on the language of poetry Message-ID: My verse on the language of poetry ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???: ??????????????????? ????????? ??????? ?? Occasionally, a wife uses oblique expressions addressed to her beloved. Similarly, a poet pierces the mind of the brilliant readers with his word-arrows. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 16:18:08 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 20 21:48:08 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Kosha API Message-ID: Dear scholars, Currently we have around 30 koshas available in digital format. I have developed a small API to search the content matching a given word from all the dictionaries. *For non technical people -* 1. Use https://www.sanskritworld.in/sanskrittool/kosha-search/kosha.html 2. Use 'all' as default value in 'Dictionary' field. If you want data for a specific dictionary, use its dictionary code from the list given below. 3. input transliteration and output transliteration can be any of the following values - - bengali - devanagari - gujarati - gurmukhi - kannada - malayalam - oriya - tamil - telugu - hk (Harvard-Kyoto) - iast (International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration) - itrans (ITRANS) - itrans_dravidian (ITRANS with support for Dravidian short "e" and "o") - kolkata (National Library at Kolkata) - slp1 (Sanskrit Library Phonetic Basic) - velthuis (Velthuis) - wx (WX) *API description -* https://kosha.sanskritworld.in/#/default is the API for programmers. 1. https://kosha.sanskritworld.in/v0.0.1/dictcode gives the codes and full form of dictionary name. 2. https://kosha.sanskritworld.in/v0.0.1/query/{query} gives the details of all data matching `query` in all dictionaries. e.g. https://kosha.sanskritworld.in/v0.0.1/query/rAma 3. https://kosha.sanskritworld.in/v0.0.1/query/{query}/koshas/{kosha} gives the detail of a given `query` in given `kosha`. If you are unsure of the `kosha`, see API 1 for short codes. e.g. https://kosha.sanskritworld.in/v0.0.1/query/rAma/koshas/ABCH This will give all details of rAma in dictionary ??????????????? of ?????????? *Dict codes -* { "ABCH": "abhidhanachintamani_hemachandra", "ACPH": "abhidhanachintamaniparishishta_hemachandra", "ACSJ": "abhidhanachintamanishiloncha_jinadeva", "ANKM": "anekarthakosha_mankha", "ANKS": "anekarthasamuchchaya_shashvata", "ANSH": "anekarthasangraha_hemachandra", "ARMH": "abhidhanaratnamala_halayudha", "ATMH": "anekarthatilaka_mahipa", "DKPD": "dvirupakosha_purushottamadeva", "DRSH": "dvirupadikosha_shriharsha", "EKPD": "ekaksharakosha_purushottamadeva", "ENSK": "ekaksharanamamala_sadhukalashagani", "HVPD": "haravali_purushottamadeva", "KNVP": "kriyanighantu_virapandya", "NDSG": "nanarthodayasagara_ghasilal", "NGSH": "nighantushesha_hemachandra", "NMMB": "namamalika_bhoja", "NMMD": "namamala_dhananjaya", "NNMR": "nanarthamanjari_raghava", "NRMI": "nanartharatnamala_irugapa", "NSAP": "nanarthasangraha_ajayapala", "NSMK": "nanarthashabdakosha_medinikara", "SBPM": "shabdabhedaprakasha_maheshvara", "SKGL": "shivakosha_ghasilal", "SRSG": "shabdaratnakara_sadhusundaragani", "SRSS": "shabdaratnasamanvaya_sahaji", "TSPD": "trikandashesha_purushottamadeva", "VJYP": "vaijayanti_yadavaprakasha", "VLSS": "vishvalochana_shridharasena", "VPRM": "vishvaprakasha_maheshvara" } -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Tue Jan 21 17:40:41 2020 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 20 12:40:41 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_the_Ny=C4=81yaprave=C5=9Ba?= Message-ID: <8C109349-7DA9-462A-8C9F-6B744F640742@berkeley.edu> I am looking for a translation of the Ny?yaprave?a ? can?t find one on the internet. Does anyone know of a translation of this work and whether a pdf might be available? I need it to make sense of the 29th chapter of the Tamil Ma?im?kalai, a Buddhist work of the 6th (?) century with about 400 lines on Buddhist logic that closely resemble the NP. Thanks, George Hart From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at Tue Jan 21 17:58:47 2020 From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 20 18:58:47 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_the_Ny=C4=81yaprave=C5=9Ba?= In-Reply-To: <8C109349-7DA9-462A-8C9F-6B744F640742@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <11fafbe1-5df8-53bc-2b65-ad9a91a15c14@oeaw.ac.at> Dear George Hart, there is a dated, but still useful English translation by Musashi Tachikawa (1971). Bibliographical references can be found in the EAST database: https://east.ikga.oeaw.ac.at/buddh/ind/2/14/ With best regards, Birgit Kellner Am 2020/01/21 um 18:40 schrieb George Hart via INDOLOGY: > I am looking for a translation of the Ny?yaprave?a ? can?t find one on the internet. Does anyone know of a translation of this work and whether a pdf might be available? I need it to make sense of the 29th chapter of the Tamil Ma?im?kalai, a Buddhist work of the 6th (?) century with about 400 lines on Buddhist logic that closely resemble the NP. Thanks, George Hart > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- ---- Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner Director Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 A-1020 Vienna Austria Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at From glhart at berkeley.edu Tue Jan 21 18:20:19 2020 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 20 13:20:19 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_the_Ny=C4=81yaprave=C5=9Ba?= In-Reply-To: <4f49642f-3a7d-9ff7-02ab-caff9828f35e@mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <99A39FD5-7AAE-445D-9FA8-ADD8DEBE5D22@berkeley.edu> Many thanks to those who responded to my query! Like others on this list, I am both moved, impressed and humbled by the collegiality exhibited by all. These translations are exactly what I need. George > On Jan 21, 2020, at 1:12 PM, Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. wrote: > > Here is a published translation I did of the text with Martha Love. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > On 2020-01-21 12:40 p.m., George Hart via INDOLOGY wrote: >> I am looking for a translation of the Ny?yaprave?a ? can?t find one on the internet. Does anyone know of a translation of this work and whether a pdf might be available? I need it to make sense of the 29th chapter of the Tamil Ma?im?kalai, a Buddhist work of the 6th (?) century with about 400 lines on Buddhist logic that closely resemble the NP. Thanks, George Hart >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > > Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca > Department of Linguistics > McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 > 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield > Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 > H3A 1A7 CANADA > > webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ > > From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 19:48:32 2020 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 20 12:48:32 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09PDF_of_Emmerick''s_=E2=80=9CIndo-Iranian_Concepts_of_Disease_and_Cure"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have the journal, and that issue (in my hand now). So if nobody else has a scan, I'll do it. The JEAS is full of marvellous articles. I wish it were all scanned and available. Perhaps I'll try to get it done. The original publisher has folded; some issues are held (owned? rights?) by the publisher Ute Hempen, although they don't sell it or answer email. Peter Das still produces issues of its successor journal, Traditional South Asian Medicine. See Peter's note about these journals. Although TSAM is still an excellent read, it's very sporadic. JEAS and TSAM were/are both print-only. Formerly print-only, IJHS has gone online in the last couple of years. The centre of gravity for the timely publishing of international research on the history of medicine in early India has moved to eJIM and HSSA , both of which are open-access and online. -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 at 10:40, Timothy P. Lighthiser via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Hello! > > Does anyone happen to have a PDF of Emmerick's article (below) that they'd > be willing to share with me and other list members (with whom I'd be happy > to forward it to afterwards)? > > Thanks in advance! > > t > > ?Indo-Iranian Concepts of Disease and Cure,? *Journal of the European > ?yurvedic Society* 3, 1993c, pp. 72-93. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 03:30:52 2020 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 09:00:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query Message-ID: <5e27c1f0.1c69fb81.3f9a9.084a@mx.google.com> Dear colleagues,Could anyone let me know about the reference to the usage of ?????? the term for Bhagavan SriKrishnaIn the SrimadBhagavata Purana ?Thanks in advance,Kindest regards,Girish K.JhaRetd.University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityCurrent Residence: Kolkata -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Jan 22 07:05:01 2020 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 07:05:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query Message-ID: <1579676446.S.59014.autosave.drafts.1579676701.3784@webmail.rediffmail.com> Amaik refers to someone who is of amicable disposition, accessible to everyone.I apologise, I do not have a Sanskrit font in my Android, so I had to spell the word in English.Alakendu Das  Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: jhakgirish via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> Sent: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:01:44 GMT+0530 To: indology <indology at list.indology.info> Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query Dear colleagues,Could anyone let me know about the reference to the usage of ?????? the term for Bhagavan SriKrishnaIn the SrimadBhagavata Purana ?Thanks in advance,Kindest regards,Girish K.JhaRetd.University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityCurrent Residence: Kolkata _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 08:18:02 2020 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 13:48:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5e280541.1c69fb81.fb68e.6c2a@mx.google.com> Dear Mr Das,Thanks for your reply.But I seek the reference as to the Skandha , Adhyaya and shloka? No.where it has been used in the Srimad Bhagavata Purana.?????? refers to the meaning that Shrikrishna is beyond the grip of the Maya and Maya is his servant.I have not that edition of the SrimadBhagavata in which exhaustive Word Index is contained.RegardsGirish K. JhaSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: alakendu das Date: 1/22/20 12:35 PM (GMT+05:30) To: jhakgirish at gmail.com Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] A query Amaik refers to someone who is of amicable disposition, accessible to everyone.I apologise, I do not have a Sanskrit font in my Android, so I had to spell the word in English.Alakendu Das?Sent from RediffmailNG on AndroidFrom: jhakgirish via INDOLOGY Sent: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:01:44 GMT+0530To: indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query Dear colleagues,Could anyone let me know about the reference to the usage of ?????? the term for Bhagavan SriKrishnaIn the SrimadBhagavata Purana ?Thanks in advance,Kindest regards,Girish K.JhaRetd.University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityCurrent Residence: Kolkata _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perjohan.sindahl at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 08:38:58 2020 From: perjohan.sindahl at gmail.com (Per-Johan Norelius) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 09:38:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request Message-ID: Dear list members, Would anyone happen to have a pdf of the following dissertation: Hyla Stuntz Converse, "The historical significance of the first occurrence of the doctrine of transmigration in the early Upanishads" (Columbia University, 1971). Thanks, Per-Johan Norelius Virusfritt. www.avast.com <#m_8732549285716442756_m_7764111988159768878_m_-4695095310536895228_m_6686345302422307038_m_-456919430782285496_m_-677402816080445623_m_-8163487808272738045_m_-3179390136287666888_m_4573010635683500242_m_4870538714950905645_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perjohan.sindahl at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 13:10:47 2020 From: perjohan.sindahl at gmail.com (Per-Johan Norelius) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 14:10:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request Message-ID: Many thanks to Lubom?r Ondra?ka for sending me a pdf of Converse's dissertation. Best, Per-Johan Norelius -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 16:45:15 2020 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 09:45:15 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query In-Reply-To: <5e280541.1c69fb81.fb68e.6c2a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear Prof. Jha, A search of the digital text of the Srimad Bhagavata Purana from GRETIL ( http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/3_purana/bhagp/bhp1-12u.htm) does not turn up this word. I searched for "m?yik" in order to allow for and discount any possible sandhi combinations of the first and last vowel of the word. The text available at GRETIL does not say what edition was input. Probably the word you are seeking occurs in a different edition. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:18 AM jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Mr Das, > Thanks for your reply.But I seek the reference as to the Skandha , Adhyaya > and shloka No.where it has been used in the Srimad Bhagavata Purana.?????? > refers to the meaning that Shrikrishna is beyond the grip of the Maya and > Maya is his servant.I have not that edition of the SrimadBhagavata in which > exhaustive Word Index is contained. > Regards > Girish K. Jha > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 17:49:40 2020 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 20 23:19:40 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5e288b3a.1c69fb81.65bf6.9799@mx.google.com> Dear Mr David and Ms NancyI am extremely grateful to both of you for taking great pains.I am trying other texts.Kindest regards,Girish K.JhaRetd.University ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityCurrent Residence:. KolkataSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: David and Nancy Reigle Date: 1/22/20 10:15 PM (GMT+05:30) To: jhakgirish Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] A query Dear Prof. Jha,A search of the digital text of the Srimad Bhagavata Purana from GRETIL (http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/3_purana/bhagp/bhp1-12u.htm) does not turn up this word. I searched for "m?yik" in order to allow for and discount any possible sandhi combinations of the first and last vowel of the word. The text available at GRETIL does not say what edition was input. Probably the word you are seeking occurs in a different edition.Best regards,David ReigleColorado, U.S.A.On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:18 AM jhakgirish via INDOLOGY wrote:Dear Mr Das,Thanks for your reply.But I seek the reference as to the Skandha , Adhyaya and shloka? No.where it has been used in the Srimad Bhagavata Purana.?????? refers to the meaning that Shrikrishna is beyond the grip of the Maya and Maya is his servant.I have not that edition of the SrimadBhagavata in which exhaustive Word Index is contained.RegardsGirish K. Jha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org Thu Jan 23 08:50:53 2020 From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 20 14:20:53 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_publication_jointly_published_by_the_Ecole_Fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient_and_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry?= In-Reply-To: <3551d686-921b-dd1f-b05a-1acfd341a598@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <9bf1416f-e646-e045-eced-57880e4e39ae@ifpindia.org> *JUST RELEASED* (The Table of Contents is attached) */The Commentary Idioms of the Tamil Learned Traditions/*. Edited by**Suganya Anandakichenin and Victor D?Avella. Collection Indologie n? 141 / NETamil Series n? 5, Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient / Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry, 2020, iv, 603 p. Language: English, Tamil. Rs 1000 (43 EUR). ISBN: 978-81-8470-232-3 (IFP) / 978-2-85539-236-3 (EFEO). *About the book:* This volume presents several detailed studies of the commentary traditions of South India with a particular emphasis on Tamil, but extended to Sanskrit and Telugu as well. The importance of commentaries for our understanding of classical Indian languages and their literatures has long been acknowledged, but rarely have the commentaries themselves, especially minor ones, been the subject of systematic study. Contributors to this volume begin to remedy this desideratum in several ways. Some describe the specific methods employed by particular commentators and offer translations of passages, many of which have never before been rendered into English. Others examine what impact ancient commentators have had on the development of modern philological and lexicographical tools. More broadly, the role of the commentary in textual exegesis is taken up by several authors, and, in one case, this has led to an extension of the very notion of a commentary to include translation. This volume will serve as an important reference point for further research into commentarial traditions both in India and around the world. *About the editors:*** *Suganya Anandakichenin*, a postdoctoral research fellow at the Centre for the Study of Manuscript Cultures, University of Hamburg, specialises in the ??v?r bhakti poetry as well as ?r?vai??ava Manipravalam literature. *Victor D?Avella *is a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Hamburg, working for the international project ?Texts Surrounding Texts? (ANR/DFG) and formerly part of the ERC-funded NETamil project. His main area of interest is the linguistic and literary traditions of India with a focus on Sanskrit, Tamil, and Telugu. *Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry* (Library and Publication Division) P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, Pondicherry-605001, INDIA Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661 E-mail: _library at ifpindia.org _** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ToC_CI141.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 210742 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 13:33:35 2020 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 20 14:33:35 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Announcement of a Fellowship for PhD study in Buddhism at Leiden Message-ID: Please pass this along to anyone who might be interested! *PhD position in Buddhist Studies * Khyentse Foundation announces the availability of support for a 4-year PhD position at Leiden University in Buddhist Studies. The successful candidate will carry out research on a theme in Buddhist Studies under the supervision of Prof. dr. Jonathan A. Silk. Buddhist Studies at Leiden University focuses in the first place on Indian Buddhism, and on preparing scholars to edit, translate and study Buddhist scriptures, chiefly Mah?y?na s?tras. Although any topic within Buddhist Studies is possible, preference will be given to candidates who wish to focus on an area of special interest to Prof. Silk, which normally might include work on an edition and critical study of one or more Mah?y?na s?tras. However, other approaches will be considered, and if you are interested, by all means apply with your idea for another type of project. The successful applicant will have high level knowledge of the relevant Buddhist languages, optimally Chinese, Tibetan and Sanskrit. *Key responsibilities* - Write a PhD thesis - Participate in team activities - Disseminate your research to non-academic parties and on social media *Selection Criteria* - An MA degree in Buddhist Studies or a relevant degree - Sufficient command of the relevant languages to engage in research - Ability to communicate in written and oral academic English - Commitment to high-quality research, publication, and dissemination - Ability to plan and execute tasks independently and punctually - Ability to work as part of a larger team. *The Leiden Situation* The Faculty of Humanities at Leiden University is rich in expertise in fields such as philosophy, religious studies, history, art history, literature, linguistics and area studies covering nearly every region of the world. With its staff of 995, the faculty provides 27 master?s and 25 bachelor?s programmes for over 7,000 students based at locations in Leiden?s historic city centre and in modern buildings in The Hague. For more information: http://www.hum.leidenuniv.nl The PhD candidate will work in the Leiden University Institute for Area Studies (http://www.hum.leiden.edu/lias/). LIAS is comprised of a School of Asian Studies and a School of Middle-Eastern Studies, with international staff and student populations. Current staff in LIAS has expertise in the fields of Anthropology, Archaeology, Art Studies, Buddhist Studies, Film Studies, History, International Relations, Language Pedagogy, Law, Linguistics, Literary Studies, Material Culture Studies, Performance Studies, Philology, Philosophy, Political Economy, Religious Studies, Sociology, and Visual Culture Studies. Prof. Silk currently heads an ERC-funded project called "Open Philology," ( www.OpenPhilology.eu) aimed at creating digital tools for the study of Buddhist scriptures, in the first place the Mah?ratnak??a collection of 49 s?tras. His team at present comprises 3 post-doctoral fellows, a programmer, and 2 PhD students, along with other PhD students not employed by the project. The overall environment is a vital and active one. *Terms and conditions of Support* Khyentse Foundation offers financial support for 4 years of study, with continuation of funding after the first year, and every subsequent year, contingent on good progress toward the PhD degree. Such progress will be determined at the sole discretion of Prof. Silk. Financial support is offered in the amount of ?25,000 per annum. Any taxes or other costs are solely the responsibility of the student. Students must purchase their own insurance. Payment will be made at the beginning of each year of study. Study may begin at any point in the year, but Leiden semesters begin in September and February, and the position would optimally begin 1 September. Leiden University offers access to its libraries and an email account, but no guaranteed work space. Flex desks are available on a first-come first-served basis. We may be able to offer assistance in locating housing. *Information* Queries can be directed to Jonathan Silk, email: j.a.silk at hum.leidenuniv.nl *Applications* Applications should be sent as soon as possible. Consideration will begin on *15 March 2020*, and continue until a candidate is selected. Applications should be in English, and be submitted directly to Prof. Silk at: j.a.silk at hum.leidenuniv.nl. Please ensure that you include in *a single PDF document *named ?FAMILY NAME ? Given name: - A CV including education history and publications, and full contact information; - A letter of motivation; - One sample publication or other piece of academic written work in English; - Names, positions and email addresses of two referees (no reference letters). -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpjain1903 at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 15:20:13 2020 From: rpjain1903 at gmail.com (R. P. Jain) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 20 20:50:13 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__New_publication_jointly_published_by_the_Ecole_Fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient_and_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry?= In-Reply-To: <9bf1416f-e646-e045-eced-57880e4e39ae@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <43EB960A-24B2-4FF9-BAFF-669D9ECF0FCB@gmail.com> If French institute ca promote their books why not others can do. Rajeev Jain > From: Anurupa Naik via INDOLOGY > Date: 23 January 2020 at 2:22:31 PM IST > To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication jointly published by the Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient and the Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry > Reply-To: Anurupa Naik > > ? JUST RELEASED > (The Table of Contents is attached) > > The Commentary Idioms of the Tamil Learned Traditions. Edited by Suganya Anandakichenin and Victor D?Avella. Collection Indologie n? 141 / NETamil Series n? 5, Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient / Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry, 2020, iv, 603 p. > Language: English, Tamil. Rs 1000 (43 EUR). ISBN: 978-81-8470-232-3 (IFP) / 978-2-85539-236-3 (EFEO). > > About the book: > This volume presents several detailed studies of the commentary traditions of South India with a particular emphasis on Tamil, but extended to Sanskrit and Telugu as well. The importance of commentaries for our understanding of classical Indian languages and their literatures has long been acknowledged, but rarely have the commentaries themselves, especially minor ones, been the subject of systematic study. Contributors to this volume begin to remedy this desideratum in several ways. Some describe the specific methods employed by particular commentators and offer translations of passages, many of which have never before been rendered into English. Others examine what impact ancient commentators have had on the development of modern philological and lexicographical tools. More broadly, the role of the commentary in textual exegesis is taken up by several authors, and, in one case, this has led to an extension of the very notion of a commentary to include translation. This volume will serve as an important reference point for further research into commentarial traditions both in India and around the world. > > About the editors: > Suganya Anandakichenin, a postdoctoral research fellow at the Centre for the Study of Manuscript Cultures, University of Hamburg, specialises in the ??v?r bhakti poetry as well as ?r?vai??ava Manipravalam literature. > > Victor D?Avella is a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Hamburg, working for the international project ?Texts Surrounding Texts? (ANR/DFG) and formerly part of the ERC-funded NETamil project. His main area of interest is the linguistic and literary traditions of India with a focus on Sanskrit, Tamil, and Telugu. > > Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry > (Library and Publication Division) > P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, > Pondicherry-605001, INDIA > Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661 > E-mail: library at ifpindia.org > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ToC_CI141.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 210742 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu Thu Jan 23 17:12:20 2020 From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 20 12:12:20 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil Studies position at Stony Brook Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I wanted to inform you about this open rank search for an endowed professorship at my university, the State University of New York at Stony Brook. Inquiries about the position should be sent not to me, but to the search committee chair (CAS_tamilsearch at stonybrook.edu). With best wishes, Andrew ---------- link for below: https://apply.interfolio.com/71724 Assistant, Associate or Full Professor - Anandavalli and Dr. G. Swaminathan Endowed Research Professorship in Tamil Description Stony Brook University invites applications for the Anandavalli and Dr. G. Swaminathan Endowed Research Professorship in Tamil, a full-time tenured or tenure-track faculty position at the level of Assistant, Associate, or Full Professor (open rank) to commence in Fall 2020. The successful candidate?s primary appointment will be in one of the following departments: Art, History, Linguistics, or Music, with possible secondary or affiliate appointments in other departments as appropriate. Candidates must have demonstrated excellence in innovative research and potential to participate in the teaching mission of the Department they join. The successful candidate will be expected to be an effective interdisciplinary teacher and mentor at the undergraduate and graduate levels, supervise PhD students in research and professional development, and be an active participant in community outreach activities. Applications are encouraged from Tamil Studies scholars in any relevant area of the Humanities, Arts, or Social Sciences. The Endowment will provide funds for salary, research, conferences, colloquia, and other scholarly activities. Please contact *CAS_tamilsearch at stonybrook.edu *with any questions you may have. Salary: Dependent upon Qualifications Qualifications *Required: *PhD from an accredited institution prior to start date with specialization in one of the possible appointing departments or related field. Native or near-native fluency in written and spoken Tamil. A record of research related to Tamil studies in one of the possible appointing departments or related field *Preferred: *A distinguished national/international reputation or potential for sustained scholarly accomplishments. Evidence of or potential for excellence in research and service; undergraduate and graduate teaching; interdisciplinary collaboration; and community outreach. Application Instructions A complete application will consist of five items, including the required Application form: 1) a cover letter that addresses the criteria for the position, 2) CV, 3) sample of representative scholarly work, 4) names and contact information for three references. Review of applicant files will begin on February 17, 2020 and will continue until the position is filled. Inquiries may be directed to the College of Arts and Sciences, Office of the Dean, Chair of the Swaminathan Search Committee. (631) 632-6999. Stony Brook University, one of four research-intensive campuses within the State University of New York (SUNY) system, is widely regarded as its flagship. The University embraces its mission to provide comprehensive undergraduate, graduate and professional education of the highest quality, and its rankings bear that out. It?s included among the top 1% of universities in the world by the 2018 QS World University Rankings and among the top 40 public universities by U.S.News & World Report?s 2020 Best Colleges rankings. It is a member of the prestigious Association of American Universities, composed of the top 62 research institutions in North America. As Long Island?s largest single-site employer, Stony Brook has nearly 15,000 full- and part-time employees, including more than 2,700 faculty. It enrolled roughly 26,800 students in fall 2019 ? 17,900 undergraduate students and 8,900 graduate students ? and offers more than 200 majors, minors and combined-degree programs. The Department of Athletics supports 18 Division I varsity intercollegiate athletic programs that compete at the highest level within the NCAA. Located approximately 60 miles east of Manhattan on Long Island?s beautiful North Shore, Stony Brook is situated on 1,454 wooded acres, encompassing 13 schools and colleges; a Research and Development Park; world-class athletics facilities, including an 8,300-seat stadium and a 4,000-seat arena; and Stony Brook Medicine, Long Island?s premier academic medical center. Also part of the University is a teaching and research campus in Southampton, New York, which offers graduate arts programs and is the site of the Marine Sciences Center. In addition, Stony Brook has a role in running, and performs joint research with, Brookhaven National Laboratory, the only Department of Energy Laboratory in the Northeast. Home to the Emerson String Quartet, the Pollock-Krasner House in East Hampton, NY, and the Humanities Institute, with endeavors that extend to the Turkana Basin Institute in Kenya and the Ranomafana National Park in Madagascar, Stony Brook sustains an international reputation that cuts across the arts, humanities, social sciences and natural sciences. As part of a great research university, the College of Arts and Sciences at Stony Brook University incubates creative work and scholarship in fundamental disciplines,connecting with medicine, technology, public policy, culture, education, the arts,business and environment. As the liberal arts college for the campus, we help students and faculty explore diverse possibilities that exceed their initial expectations and prepare for a lifetime of learning and discovery. http://www.stonybrook.edu/cas/ *The selected candidate must successfully clear a background investigation.* *In accordance with the Title II Crime Awareness and Security Act, a copy of our crime statistics is available upon request by calling (631) 632- 6350. It can also be viewed online at the University Police website at** http://www.stonybrook.edu/police .* *Equal Employment Opportunity Statement* Stony Brook University is committed to excellence in diversity and the creation of an inclusive learning, and working environment. All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, national origin, religion, sex, pregnancy, familial status, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, age, disability, genetic information, veteran status and all other protected classes under federal or state laws. If you need a disability-related accommodation, please call the university office of institutional diversity and equity at (631)632-6280. Andrew J. Nicholson, Ph.D. Associate Professor Asian & Asian American Studies Stony Brook University Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 USA (631) 632-4030 http://philosophicalrasika.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Jan 23 17:46:14 2020 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 20 17:46:14 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__New_publication_jointly_published_by_the_Ecole_Fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient_and_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry?= In-Reply-To: <43EB960A-24B2-4FF9-BAFF-669D9ECF0FCB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr Jain, I think that the answer to your question will be as follows: the EFEO/IFP is not a commercial publisher in the strict sense of the word. Members of this list are of course allowed (should be encouraged) to inform the other members of their publications, irrespective of whether they have appeared with a commercial or a non-commercial company. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens R. P. Jain via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: donderdag 23 januari 2020 16:20 Aan: indology Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication jointly published by the Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient and the Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry If French institute ca promote their books why not others can do. Rajeev Jain From: Anurupa Naik via INDOLOGY Date: 23 January 2020 at 2:22:31 PM IST To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication jointly published by the Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient and the Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry Reply-To: Anurupa Naik ? JUST RELEASED (The Table of Contents is attached) The Commentary Idioms of the Tamil Learned Traditions. Edited by Suganya Anandakichenin and Victor D?Avella. Collection Indologie n? 141 / NETamil Series n? 5, Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient / Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry, 2020, iv, 603 p. Language: English, Tamil. Rs 1000 (43 EUR). ISBN: 978-81-8470-232-3 (IFP) / 978-2-85539-236-3 (EFEO). About the book: This volume presents several detailed studies of the commentary traditions of South India with a particular emphasis on Tamil, but extended to Sanskrit and Telugu as well. The importance of commentaries for our understanding of classical Indian languages and their literatures has long been acknowledged, but rarely have the commentaries themselves, especially minor ones, been the subject of systematic study. Contributors to this volume begin to remedy this desideratum in several ways. Some describe the specific methods employed by particular commentators and offer translations of passages, many of which have never before been rendered into English. Others examine what impact ancient commentators have had on the development of modern philological and lexicographical tools. More broadly, the role of the commentary in textual exegesis is taken up by several authors, and, in one case, this has led to an extension of the very notion of a commentary to include translation. This volume will serve as an important reference point for further research into commentarial traditions both in India and around the world. About the editors: Suganya Anandakichenin, a postdoctoral research fellow at the Centre for the Study of Manuscript Cultures, University of Hamburg, specialises in the ??v?r bhakti poetry as well as ?r?vai??ava Manipravalam literature. Victor D?Avella is a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Hamburg, working for the international project ?Texts Surrounding Texts? (ANR/DFG) and formerly part of the ERC-funded NETamil project. His main area of interest is the linguistic and literary traditions of India with a focus on Sanskrit, Tamil, and Telugu. Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry (Library and Publication Division) P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, Pondicherry-605001, INDIA Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661 E-mail: library at ifpindia.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Thu Jan 23 22:56:18 2020 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 20 22:56:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IASS Professor Ram Karan Sharma Award Message-ID: The application deadline for the the International Association of Sanskrit Studies 'Professor Ram Karan Sharma Award' has been extended to September 30, 2020. The winner of this Award will be announced at the 18th World Sanskrit Conference in Canberra, Australia, 18?22 January, 2021. The Award is valued at 1000 USD. Applications for the Ram Karan Sharma Award should be sent to Professor Deven Patel (devenp at sas.upenn.edu). The purpose of the Award is to recognize and support outstanding work in the field of Sanskrit and related studies done by a promising ?young scholar? anywhere in the world, namely a scholar who is 25?30 years of age. The fields of study for the award will focus on areas for which Professor Sharma was well-known worldwide: preeminently K?vya, but also including, among others, the fields of grammar, the epics, ?yurveda and metrics. In the five years (2016?2021) previous to the 18th WSC applicants 1) shall have received a PhD and 2) shall have published journal articles and/or published a book in the area(s) mentioned above. Theses and publications in English only are eligible for consideration. The original announcement of the award is posted on the IASS web site at: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/images/pdf/Professor-Ram-Karan-Sharma-Award.pdf [cid:3a27c133-023c-4e2c-990e-10fd26119f2e] McComas Taylor Associate Professor Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University WSC Website| McC Website Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Fri Jan 24 10:26:31 2020 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 20 11:26:31 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance Message-ID: <8aa0df17-feea-d81c-1172-8599e3a30a83@gmx.de> Dear all, those working with Vedic texts may be interested in this resource: https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/dcs/data/bloomfield-vedic-concordance It contains a script which resolves complex citations in the VC and stores the result in a new file (data/ directory). E.g.: original: RV.8.23.22b; 39.8e; 60.2d transformed: RV.8.23.22b; RV.8.39.8e; RV.8.60.2d Should make searching in the VC much easier. The data directory also contains parts of the transformed data in various formats such as JSON or an R-style data frame, which can be used for analyzing the data more closely. If you find errors, please adapt and update the script or send me a mail. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, IVS Z?rich From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 10:27:32 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 20 15:57:32 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIXgpKjgpYfgpJXgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpKfgpY3gpLXgpKjgpL/gpK7gpJ7gpY3gpJzgpLDgpYAgb2Yg4KSu4KS54KS+4KSV4KWN4KS34KSq4KSj4KSV?= Message-ID: Respected scholars, It gives me immense pleasure to present before you the digitized work of following lexicon - Anek?rthadhvanima?jar? of Mah?k?apa?aka. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/anekarthadhvanimanjari_mahakshapanaka/orig/anekarthadhvanimanjari.txt Your comments and feedback are highly appreciated. With regards, -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de Fri Jan 24 10:33:43 2020 From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 20 11:33:43 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fellowships in Bonn Center for Dependency and Slavery Studies 2020/2021 - object based focus In-Reply-To: <8aa0df17-feea-d81c-1172-8599e3a30a83@gmx.de> Message-ID: <69C12EF6-9538-4959-9EB6-BD5A0AFF0310@uni-bonn.de> Dearest colleagues and friends, please find attached the call for applications for the next Heinz Heinen Fellowships in the Center for Advanced Study at the Bonn Center for Dependency and Slavery Studies (BCDSS) for 2020/2021. The research emphasis during this year will be on ?Embodied dependencies?. We would be particularly happy, to welcome researchers with a focus on Asian art, architecture, archaeology and visual anthropology. The deadline for applications is 15th March. All best wishes, Julia. Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald Professor of Oriental Art History Head of Department University of Bonn Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA) Department of Asian and Islamic Art History Adenauerallee 10 53113 Bonn Germany Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de www.aik.uni-bonn.de Tel. 0049-228-73 7213 Fax. 0049-228-73 4042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HeinzHeinenFellowships_CfA_2020_2021.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 112535 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avenkatesan at ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 24 17:33:31 2020 From: avenkatesan at ucdavis.edu (Archana Venkatesan) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 20 09:33:31 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP: CSRI at University of Madras Message-ID: With apologies for cross-posting: The deadline is fast approaching--Feb 1, 2020. Please consider submitting a proposal. This year, CSRI is hosting the conference in India. Details below. Archana ========= The *Conference on the Study of Religions of India (CSRI)* invites proposals for its upcoming Annual Meeting to be held at the University of Madras, India on July 21-24, 2020. The conference theme is*"Containment, Collection, and Arrangement* *in South Asian Religions.?* We invite proposals representing a range of disciplinary and methodological approaches that focus on the actual, metaphorical or conceptual storage, movement, or organization of objects and substances of significance in religious texts, ritual practices, institutional structures and/or individual behaviour. Possible topics could include the organization of *m* *?**rti*s in temple architecture; the disposition of materials in ritual; episodes of hiding, finding or losing sacred objects in Epics and other narrative traditions; philosophical or theological accounts of perception and memory; classificatory schemes that demarcate the structure of the human person (e.g., *cakras*, faculties), the cosmos and/or social and cultural institutions; monastic traditions of manuscript collection and organization, and so forth. Conference organizers welcome individual paper proposals that articulate a clear argument and its connection to the conference theme of no longer than 250 words to be submitted through the CSRI website at https://digitalcommons.butler.edu/csri/ no later than February 1, 2020. *Proposals must include a clear statement of a thesis or argument to be advanced and must be clearly related to the conference theme. Abstracts that do not meet those criteria cannot be considered.* *Housing and Registration*: Conference participants will bear the cost of their own lodging. We have arranged room blocks at the moderately priced New Woodlands Hotel and the modestly priced University of Madras Guest House, both in the vicinity of the university conference site. Conference registration fees will be as follows, with additional concessions for graduate students: Scholars from South Asia = ?1,000; Scholars from outside South Asia = US $50. -- *"When writers die they become books, which is, after all, not too bad an incarnation."* Jorge Luis Borges Archana Venkatesan ( archana.faculty.ucdavis.edu) Chair, Department of Religious Studies *Associate Professor, Religious Studies and Comparative Literature* Phone: 530-754-2821 (Office) Check out UC Davis's Religions of India Initiative -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Sat Jan 25 12:59:30 2020 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 12:59:30 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= Message-ID: Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 13:06:35 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 18:36:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for Sanskrit lexica - 2 Message-ID: Respected Scholars, I am in need of scanned copies of the following lexica. Any help on list or off list is appreciated. The names of works are taken from History of Indian Lexicography by Claus Vogel. 1. Paramaanandiiyanaamamaalaa of Makarandadaasa. 2. SiddhashabdaarNava of Sahajakiirti. 3. Koshakalpararu of Vishvanaath. (Part 1 seems available on archive.org. Part 2 is not available) 4. Pancatattvaprakaasha of Veniidatta. 5. Shabdaratnaavalii of Mathuresh Vidyaalankaara. 6. Shivakosha of Shivadatta Mishra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Jan 25 14:09:59 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 14:09:59 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at Sat Jan 25 16:00:56 2020 From: Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at (Eltschinger, Vincent) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 16:00:56 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <139933a853a74edaa9e7d3ff96a733a4@oeaw.ac.at> Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Jan 25 21:13:42 2020 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 21:13:42 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <139933a853a74edaa9e7d3ff96a733a4@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Eltschinger, Vincent Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To: Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: AW: Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at Sat Jan 25 21:35:21 2020 From: Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at (Eltschinger, Vincent) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 21:35:21 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20eaa61876e54292b0c365d479c1ebcb@oeaw.ac.at> Dear Matthew, I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Matthew Kapstein Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Eltschinger, Vincent Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To: Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: AW: Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 22:52:30 2020 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 17:52:30 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <20eaa61876e54292b0c365d479c1ebcb@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: Dear all, Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) [1]??????? [1]??????? ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? Dan > On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Matthew, > I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. > Very best, > Vincent > > > Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW > Directeur d'?tudes > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses > Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris > vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr > 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 > Von: Matthew Kapstein > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 > An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info > Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? > > Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." > My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > From: Eltschinger, Vincent > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM > To: Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein ; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: AW: Vajras?c? > > Dear Patrick, > As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) > Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. > I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. > Very best, > Vincent > > > Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW > Directeur d'?tudes > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses > Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris > vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr > 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 > Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 > An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? > > Dear Patrick, > > You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). > > all best, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM > To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? > > Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Sat Jan 25 23:05:11 2020 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 18:05:11 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For some reason, the ?fi? dropped from my self-quoted passage (I only noticed one occasion). You probably figured that out, but in case: Prama?n?a-theory first appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the stratified nature of the text. > On Jan 25, 2020, at 5:52 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > Dear all, > > Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: > > ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) > [1]??????? > [1]??????? > ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? > > ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) > ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? > > I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. > > Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. > > As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): > > ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | > yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || > > Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: > > "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? > > So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. > > Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? > > Dan > >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> Dear Matthew, >> I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> Von: Matthew Kapstein > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >> An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? >> >> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. >> >> Matthew >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> From: Eltschinger, Vincent > >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >> To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > >> Subject: AW: Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) >> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >> An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >> >> all best, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >> To: Indology List > >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at Sun Jan 26 01:11:17 2020 From: Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at (Eltschinger, Vincent) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 01:11:17 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dan, My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the M?navadharma??stra. This is especially the case in the so-called parav?da section of the Yog?c?rabh?mi. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the Vajras?c?, for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (pram??a); the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected (yukta) with dharma and artha is authoritative. A [person] for whom a [previously acknowledged] pram??a would cease (na bhavet) to be a pram??a [because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a pram??a/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound dharm?rthayukta, but seriously doubt that yukta here has anything to do with the pram??a the medical tradition refers to as yukti (see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka, and more frequently from the Yog?c?rabh?mi onwards). Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Dan Lusthaus Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 An: Eltschinger, Vincent Cc: Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear all, Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) [1]??????? [1]??????? ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Matthew, I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Matthew Kapstein > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Eltschinger, Vincent > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: AW: Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 02:40:52 2020 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 20 21:40:52 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Vincent, Thank you for your further comments. I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of dharma). The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a catalogue of translations). The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name instead of the name of the school. Typically: Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the Nirgranthas. As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. Dan > On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent wrote: > > Dear Dan, > My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the M?navadharma??stra. This is especially the case in the so-called parav?da section of the Yog?c?rabh?mi. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. > The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the Vajras?c?, for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (pram??a); the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected (yukta) with dharma and artha is authoritative. A [person] for whom a [previously acknowledged] pram??a would cease (na bhavet) to be a pram??a [because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a pram??a/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound dharm?rthayukta, but seriously doubt that yukta here has anything to do with the pram??a the medical tradition refers to as yukti (see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? > I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka, and more frequently from the Yog?c?rabh?mi onwards). > Very best, > Vincent > > Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW > Directeur d'?tudes > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses > Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris > vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr > 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 > Von: Dan Lusthaus > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 > An: Eltschinger, Vincent > Cc: Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info > Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? > > Dear all, > > Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: > > ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) > [1]??????? > [1]??????? > ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? > > ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) > ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? > > I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. > > Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. > > As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): > > ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | > yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || > > Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: > > "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? > > So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. > > Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? > > Dan > >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> Dear Matthew, >> I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> >> Von: Matthew Kapstein > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >> An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? >> >> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. >> >> Matthew >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> From: Eltschinger, Vincent > >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >> To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > >> Subject: AW: Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) >> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> >> Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > >> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >> An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P >> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >> >> all best, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >> To: Indology List > >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 03:57:57 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 04:57:57 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The *Vajras?c?*, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher wrote: > Dear followers of this thread, > > > > although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of > N?g?rjuna, > > ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one > previously > > referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the > one dated to > > the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the > earliest and > > greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, JIP > 41 [2013]: 167), > > and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by > Olivelle > > (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, > 2018: 24) to be > > likewise that of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. > > > > For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in the > commentary > > (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been > uttered > > (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): > > > > *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* > > * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* > > > > Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. > > Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. > > > > Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 > > is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d > > (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): > > > > *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* > > * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* > > > > One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living > beings, > > and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he > should, > > therefore, abstain from meat. > > > > While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient > philological > > evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that > the > > notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at > least not > > contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in fact > have > > been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being also > the > > sphere of Vajray?na. > > > > Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for > > abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally > > slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the > antinomian > > Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason > > for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the > concise > > outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist > > Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses > quoted > > above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The *Vajras?c?*, > > > contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically > account > > for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance > at his > > space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been to > also > > include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? > > > > Best wishes, > > Hartmut Buescher > > . > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Vincent, >> >> Thank you for your further comments. >> >> I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka >> Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the >> Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one >> parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The >> yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was >> a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors >> shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual >> fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple >> stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and >> being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all >> relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a >> successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. >> In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has >> displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since >> the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect >> reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta >> pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse >> employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of >> dharma). >> >> The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of >> M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove >> of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the >> Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in >> which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already >> found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even >> S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that >> even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). >> Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) >> Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was >> made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a >> catalogue of translations). >> >> The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name >> instead of the name of the school. Typically: >> Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), >> the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the >> Nirgranthas. >> >> As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. >> Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. >> >> Dan >> >> >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent < >> Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> wrote: >> >> Dear Dan, >> My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct >> religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical >> type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth >> century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not >> occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around >> the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas >> that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on >> sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among >> these ideas find interesting prototypes in the *M?navadharma??stra*. >> This is especially the case in the so-called *parav?da* section of the >> *Yog?c?rabh?mi*. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. >> The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the *Vajras?c?*, >> for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A >> rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (*pram??a*); >> the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected ( >> *yukta*) with *dharma *and *artha *is authoritative. A [person] for whom >> a [previously acknowledged] *pram??a* would cease (*na bhavet*) to be a >> *pram??a *[because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the >> caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a >> *pram??a*/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure >> and meaning of the compound *dharm?rthayukta*, but seriously doubt that >> *yukta* here has anything to do with the *pram??a* the medical tradition >> refers to as *yukti *(see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and >> others). Or did I miss the point? >> I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st >> -2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent >> targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the >> pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do >> the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s *Catu??ataka*, and more >> frequently from the *Yog?c?rabh?mi *onwards). >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------ >> *Von:* Dan Lusthaus >> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 >> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent >> *Cc:* Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Dear all, >> >> Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any >> depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, >> Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially >> the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get >> mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text >> preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of >> Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: >> >> ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, >> T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) >> [1]??????? >> [1]??????? >> ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What >> is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), >> is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), >> just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? >> >> ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) >> ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the >> Vedas is eternal.? >> >> I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if >> anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me >> know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his >> Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines >> suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more >> familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s >> *?lokavarttika*, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for >> subsequent Buddhists. >> >> Harivarman?s *Tattvasiddhi* (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning >> of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and >> Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in >> Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited >> opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as >> are Jains. >> >> As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse >> identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse >> turns to lineage): >> >> ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | >> yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || >> >> Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and >> analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established >> criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as >> I wrote elsewhere: >> >> *"Prama?n?a*-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first >> part (*Su?tra-stha?na*) of the *CS *[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the *CS *intriguingly >> proposes, along with the three *prama?n?as *one would expect >> (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found >> anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (*yukta-prama?n?a*). >> Discussion of *prama?n?a *occurs in two other parts of the *CS*: part 3, >> *Vima?na-stha?na*, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique *yukta-prama?n?a *is >> absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? >> So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. >> >> Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have >> been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose >> exposition may have been added by a later hand? >> >> Dan >> >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Matthew, >> I was referring to *most *of the elements of the list I quoted, of >> course, not to the entire *Vajras?c?*. But you are right, Matthew: the >> *Mah?bh?rata *plays an important role in the *Vajras?c?*, as does? Manu >> ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the >> *Vajras?c? *attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in >> the extant *M?navadharma??stra *(if I remember well, this is the reason >> why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava >> *Dharmas?tra*). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the >> *Vajras?c?* is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th >> century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Von:* Matthew Kapstein >> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> *Betreff:* Re: Vajras?c? >> >> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's >> remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus >> than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most >> of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a >> somewhat later period. >> >> Matthew >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Eltschinger, Vincent >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >> *To:* Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein < >> mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; indology at list.indology.info < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* AW: Vajras?c? >> >> >> Dear Patrick, >> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical >> understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the >> *??riputraprakara?a*/*?aradvat?putraprakara?a*, several fragments of >> which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by >> Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a >> dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and >> the philosophical ressources of the *Vajras?c?*, however, are very >> different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may >> presuppose Buddhist works such as the *??rd?lakar??vad?na *if not >> Kum?ral?ta?s *Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?*. Even if I am not aware >> of any convincing argument against the attribution of the *Vajras?c?* to >> A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: >> *d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api >> vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? */. >> ?And one observes in some cases that even *??dra*s know the meaning of >> all *??stra*s such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as >> well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-*nagn?- *em. : >> *lagn?- *Ed.) Although such a list is not *per se* impossible in >> A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have >> been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would >> have been possible, *as a doxographic statement*, at that time, and even >> less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list >> is intriguing.) >> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit >> colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as *siddh?c?rya *(*k?tir >> iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti*), an expression the exact meaning >> of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Von:* INDOLOGY im Auftrag von >> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >> *An:* Indology List; Olivelle, J P >> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, *"Caste" >> et Philosophie Bouddhique *WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the >> Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is >> attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be >> established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to >> suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, >> not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not >> resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in >> which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >> >> all best, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >> *To:* Indology List >> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of >> Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? >> With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tautatita at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 07:57:40 2020 From: tautatita at gmail.com (Kiyotaka Yoshimizu) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 16:57:40 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDigJxtxKttxIHhuYNzxIHigJ0gaW4gQ2hpbmVzZQ==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6e8e70f7-791e-763a-dfbc-b6ea00d1d622@gmail.com> Dear Dan, In his commentary on the *?ataka??stra, a part of ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka??stra, Ji-zang (??) enumerates not only the four Vedas (??) but also all of the eighteen (??) abodes of knowledge, vidy?sth?nas (??), with brief definitions of each (Taish? Tripi?aka, vol. 42, 251a20?b8). Ji-zang?s list of vidy?sth?nas is partly different from that which appears in Brahmanical literature because it includes S??khya and Yoga, but M?m??s? is included in it with written errors as ???, which must be ???. This was pointed out by Hakuju Ui (????) in pp. 463?467 of the notes on his translation of Madhus?dana?s Prasth?nabheda: ?Various routes? (Shuju-naru michi)???????, Studies of Indian Philosophy????????4, pp. 425?575, Tokyo: Iwanami shoten, 1927. Ui maintains that Ji-zang may have received this information about the eighteen vidy?sth?nas from Param?rtha (499?569) because according to Ji-zan?s biography he was very close to Param?rtha. best wishes Kiyotaka Kiyotaka Yoshimizu Saitama, Japan --------------------------------------------- On 2020/01/26 7:52, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear all, > > Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any > depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, > Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, > especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the > others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the > only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s > translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in > close proximity: > > ????????13?22 > ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, > T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) > [1]??????? > [1]??????? > ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What > is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras > (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned > (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? > > ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, > T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) > ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of > the Vedas is eternal.? > > I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources > (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please > let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his > Madhyamakah?daya to?M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines > suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more > familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s > /?lokavarttika/, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for > subsequent Buddhists. > > Harivarman?s /Tattvasiddhi/ (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning > of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and > Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved > in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most > commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned > infrequently, as are Jains. > > As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse > identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following > verse turns to lineage): > > ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | > yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || > > Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, > and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the > established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the > pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: > > /"Prama?n?a/-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first > part (/Su?tra-stha?na/) of the /CS /[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the /CS > /intriguingly proposes, along with the three /prama?n?as /one would > expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a > fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning > (/yukta-prama?n?a/). Discussion of /prama?n?a /occurs in two other > parts of the /CS/: part 3, /Vima?na-stha?na/, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but > the unique /yukta-prama?n?a /is absent from those discussions, a sign > of the strati ed nature of the text.? > > So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. > > Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have > been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose > exposition may have been added by a later hand? > > Dan > >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY >> > wrote: >> >> Dear Matthew, >> I was referring to/most/of the elements of the list I quoted, of >> course, not to the entire/Vajras?c?/. But you are?right, Matthew: >> the/Mah?bh?rata/plays an important role in the/Vajras?c?/, as >> does?Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well >> known that the/Vajras?c?/attributes several verses to Manu that >> cannot be traced in the extant/M?navadharma??stra/(if I remember >> well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed >> them to a lost M?nava/Dharmas?tra/). Whatever the case may be, we >> might perhaps agree that the/Vajras?c?/is unlikely to have been >> composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that >> it is even younger. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Von:*Matthew Kapstein > > >> *Gesendet:*Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >> *An:*Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> >> *Betreff:*Re: Vajras?c? >> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's >> remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this >> corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite >> plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known >> around 100 CE." >> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a >> somewhat later period. >> >> Matthew >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:*Eltschinger, Vincent > > >> *Sent:*Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >> *To:*Olivelle, J P > >; Matthew Kapstein >> >; >> indology at list.indology.info >> > >> *Subject:*AW: Vajras?c? >> Dear Patrick, >> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the >> Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, >> the/??riputraprakara?a///?aradvat?putraprakara?a/, several fragments >> of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited >> by Heinrich L?ders around 1910.It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a >> dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method >> and the philosophical ressources of the/Vajras?c?/, however, are very >> different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and >> may presuppose Buddhist works such as the/??rd?lakar??vad?na/if not >> Kum?ral?ta?s/Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?/. Even if I am not >> aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of >> the/Vajras?c?/to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following >> statement as anachronistic:/d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api >> vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida?//. >> ?And one observes in some cases that even/??dra/s know the meaning of >> all/??stra/s such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika >> as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? >> (*-/nagn?-/em.?:/lagn?-/Ed.) Although such a list is not/per >> se/impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its >> individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not >> believe that such an enumeration would have been possible,/as a >> doxographic statement/, at that time, and even less so under >> A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is >> intriguing.) >> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit >> colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as/siddh?c?rya/(/k?tir >> iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti/), an expression the exact >> meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Von:*INDOLOGY > > im Auftrag von Matthew >> Kapstein via INDOLOGY > > >> *Gesendet:*Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >> *An:*Indology List; Olivelle, J P >> *Betreff:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> Dear Patrick, >> >> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent >> Eltschinger,/"Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique/WSTB 47 (2000). As you >> no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall >> correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the >> true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The >> emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the >> second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in >> which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the >> Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed >> remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >> >> all best, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:*INDOLOGY > > on behalf of Olivelle, >> J P via INDOLOGY > > >> *Sent:*Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >> *To:*Indology List > > >> *Subject:*[INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author >> of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its >> possible date? With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where >> you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch Sun Jan 26 09:41:53 2020 From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 09:41:53 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. Even if Vajras?c? 12 explicitly refers to M?nava Dharma??stra 5.48, the Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra (4.7) does the same (being much closer to Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers the M?nava Dharma??stra "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial Volume Book 2. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) Johannes Bronkhorst On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric siddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian k?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in Hindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the M?navadharma??stra. For various reasons, I stumbled over Vajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in this M?navadharma??stra (MDh): ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit | na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an ?k??ag?min corresponds to that of a khecara would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the Vajras?c? may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the siddh?c?ryas, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The Vajras?c?, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher > wrote: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric siddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian k?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in Hindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the M?navadharma??stra. For various reasons, I stumbled over Vajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in this M?navadharma??stra (MDh): ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit | na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an ?k??ag?min corresponds to that of a khecara would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the Vajras?c? may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the siddh?c?ryas, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The Vajras?c?, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Vincent, Thank you for your further comments. I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of dharma). The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a catalogue of translations). The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name instead of the name of the school. Typically: Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the Nirgranthas. As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent > wrote: Dear Dan, My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the M?navadharma??stra. This is especially the case in the so-called parav?da section of the Yog?c?rabh?mi. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the Vajras?c?, for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (pram??a); the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected (yukta) with dharma and artha is authoritative. A [person] for whom a [previously acknowledged] pram??a would cease (na bhavet) to be a pram??a [because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a pram??a/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound dharm?rthayukta, but seriously doubt that yukta here has anything to do with the pram??a the medical tradition refers to as yukti (see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka, and more frequently from the Yog?c?rabh?mi onwards). Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Dan Lusthaus > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 An: Eltschinger, Vincent Cc: Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear all, Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) [1]??????? [1]??????? ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Matthew, I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Matthew Kapstein > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Eltschinger, Vincent > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: AW: Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 09:59:11 2020 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 04:59:11 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0g4oCcbcSrbcSB4bmDc8SB4oCdIGluIENoaW5lc2U=?= In-Reply-To: <6e8e70f7-791e-763a-dfbc-b6ea00d1d622@gmail.com> Message-ID: <353A26FB-0A72-487F-B908-0A07325AD1A9@gmail.com> Dear Yoshimizu-san, Thank you for that. That is an interesting passage in Jizang?s commentary. The four vedas are named and given short characterizations, then the same with the six fields of study (?ik??, vy?kara?a, etc.), and then the eight schools, the first of which is given as ???. ?Correcting? that to ??? is plausible ? even if two of the three characters have to be replaced ? since if one ignores the current mandarin pronunciation, and instead pays attention to Korean and Japanese pronunciations which more closely reflect Chinese pronunciation of the time, ??? would be something like mi-mang-sa. The transcription preserved on the canon, ??? jian wang po, doesn?t come close. It is worth noting that neither ??? nor ??? appear in any other text, again strongly suggesting that M?m??s? was virtually unknown in China, reinforced by the mutilation of the transcription (two of three characters mangled), indicating that the transmitters and copyists were unfamiliar with the name. Jizang is said to have become a novice at the age of 7 or so, and it is said he had mastered the ?ata-??stra by age nineteen.The standard dates for Param?rtha are 499?569 CE, and for Jizang 549?623, which would mean Param?rtha died when Jizang was only 19 or 20. Nice coincidence. Many thanks. Dan > On Jan 26, 2020, at 2:57 AM, Kiyotaka Yoshimizu wrote: > > Dear Dan, > > In his commentary on the *?ataka??stra, a part of ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka??stra, Ji-zang (??) enumerates not only the four Vedas (??) but also all of the eighteen (??) abodes of knowledge, vidy?sth?nas (??), with brief definitions of each (Taish? Tripi?aka, vol. 42, 251a20?b8). Ji-zang?s list of vidy?sth?nas is partly different from that which appears in Brahmanical literature because it includes S??khya and Yoga, but M?m??s? is included in it with written errors as ???, which must be ???. > > This was pointed out by Hakuju Ui (????) in pp. 463?467 of the notes on his translation of Madhus?dana?s Prasth?nabheda: ?Various routes? (Shuju-naru michi)???????, Studies of Indian Philosophy????????4, pp. 425?575, Tokyo: Iwanami shoten, 1927. > > Ui maintains that Ji-zang may have received this information about the eighteen vidy?sth?nas from Param?rtha (499?569) because according to Ji-zan?s biography he was very close to Param?rtha. > > best wishes > Kiyotaka > > Kiyotaka Yoshimizu > Saitama, Japan > --------------------------------------------- > > On 2020/01/26 7:52, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: >> >> ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) >> [1]??????? >> [1]??????? >> ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? >> >> ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) >> ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? >> >> I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. >> >> Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. >> >> As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): >> >> ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | >> yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || >> >> Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: >> >> "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? >> >> So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. >> >> Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? >> >> Dan >> >>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Matthew, >>> I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >>> Very best, >>> Vincent >>> >>> >>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>> Von: Matthew Kapstein > >>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >>> An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >>> Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? >>> >>> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >>> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> From: Eltschinger, Vincent > >>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >>> To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > >>> Subject: AW: Vajras?c? >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) >>> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >>> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >>> Very best, >>> Vincent >>> >>> >>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>> Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > >>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >>> An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P >>> Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >>> >>> all best, >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > >>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >>> To: Indology List > >>> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>> >>> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, >>> >>> Patrick Olivelle >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 10:59:56 2020 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 05:59:56 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7F2DE2F3-18A9-49C9-B93C-482334637783@gmail.com> The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; pre-tantra. The term is probably older. YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam | Dan From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Sun Jan 26 11:00:07 2020 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 12:00:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for Sanskrit lexica - 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200126120007.Horde.UMSZBVRn8_vF9EsaJwiMVzC@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Mr. Patel, > The names of works are taken from History of Indian Lexicography by > Claus Vogel. Just for your information: There is a "Revised and Enlarged Edition" of Vogel's "Indian Lexicography: Indian Lexicography. Revised and Enlarged Edition. By Claus Vogel. Edited by J?rgen Hanneder and Martin Straube. M?nchen 2015. (Indologica Marpurgensia. 6). P. Kirchheim Verlag, 148 pp. ISBN: 978-3-87410-145-5 The monograph Indian Lexicography by the late Professor Claus Vogel (1933?2012), who taught Indology at the University of Bonn, contains a literary-historical survey of the Indian lexicographical literature in Sanskrit. This book appeared first in 1979 in the "History of Indian Literature" and has remained since then the unsurpassed standard work on this subject. In the course of time the author had been collecting additional notes and corrections which he initially planned to publish separately in a small booklet. When the Indian Lexicography went out of print, however, the publishers of the "Indologica Marpurgensia" proposed to him to prepare instead a revised edition of his work. Professor Vogel happily consented, and as a result now an updated authorized version of this standard book has been released. Editorial note: https://www.uni-marburg.de/de/fb10/iksl/faecher/indologie/fachgebiet/indologica-marpurgensia/band06/band06_editorial Order: http://www.kirchheimverlag.de/index/frames-nav-unten/sachbuch-frame.htm With best regards, Roland Steiner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Sun Jan 26 13:30:16 2020 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 13:30:16 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= Message-ID: <5D90665C-4A6B-4508-B40E-33075272D555@austin.utexas.edu> Many thanks to all those who responded to my request for information on the Vajras?c?, especially Matthew, Dan, and Vincent. This was a stimulating discussion and I learnt a lot, even though the date of its author remains uncertain. With thanks and best wishesm Patrick From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 14:30:33 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 20:00:33 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpI/gpJXgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpKjgpL7gpK7gpK7gpL7gpLLgpL4sIOCkpuCljeCkteCljeCkr+CksOCljeCkpeCkqOCkvuCkruCkruCkvuCksuCkviBvZiDgpLjgpYzgpK3gpLDgpL8=?= Message-ID: Dear scholars, It is my pleasure to present before you the two lexica 1. Ek?rthan?mam?l? of Saubhari 2. Dvyak?ar?n?mam?l? of Saubhari. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/ekarthanamamala_saubhari/orig/ekarthanamamala.txt and https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/dvyaksharinamamala_saubhari/orig/dvyaksharinamamala.txt The data was taken from sansknet archive at https://wilbourhall.org/ and corrections / additions made. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 15:20:32 2020 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 20:50:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for Sanskrit lexica - 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have received items 1 and 6 from the list. Items 2 to 5 remain. koshakalpataru part 2 - I was able to procure hard copy. If there is a scanned copy, I still need it. On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 at 18:36, Dhaval Patel wrote: > Respected Scholars, > > I am in need of scanned copies of the following lexica. Any help on list > or off list is appreciated. > The names of works are taken from History of Indian Lexicography by Claus > Vogel. > > 1. Paramaanandiiyanaamamaalaa of Makarandadaasa. > 2. SiddhashabdaarNava of Sahajakiirti. > 3. Koshakalpararu of Vishvanaath. (Part 1 seems available on archive.org. > Part 2 is not available) > 4. Pancatattvaprakaasha of Veniidatta. > 5. Shabdaratnaavalii of Mathuresh Vidyaalankaara. > 6. Shivakosha of Shivadatta Mishra. > > -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Sun Jan 26 15:47:34 2020 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 16:47:34 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200126164734.Horde.aqlwtW5zF1DypvLE5_Nhgs8@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> > the notion of an *?k??ag?min* See also: Buddhacarita 1.80: [...] pavanapathena yath?gatam jag?ma. Allegorical play (probably by A?vagho?a); description of the eight ?dhhi-s of the Buddha: ... (pak??)va vyomni y?ti ... (ed. L?ders 1911, p. 66). A?vagho?a's ??riputraprakara?a : ca v?yo? / (L?ders, "Das ??riputraprakara?a, ein Drama des A?vagho?a", p. 396; n. 4: "Sicherlich war hier vom Wandeln 'auf dem Pfade des Windes' [...] die Rede.") Best, Roland Steiner From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Sun Jan 26 19:55:00 2020 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 19:55:00 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <7F2DE2F3-18A9-49C9-B93C-482334637783@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1318884124.11680558.1580068500867@mail.yahoo.com> I'd be hesitant in using terms like ?k??agamin to date a text unless there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig Veda X.136 although it uses different terminology. In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences may be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. Best, Dean On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; pre-tantra. The term is probably older. YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam | Dan _______________________________________________ On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY wrote: Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. Even ifVajras?c? 12 explicitly refers to M?nava Dharma??stra 5.48, theVasi??ha Dharmas?tra (4.7) does the same (being much closer to Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers theM?nava Dharma??stra "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.?Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial Volume Book 2. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) ?Johannes Bronkhorst ? On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY wrote:Dear followers of this thread, ? although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna,?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantricsiddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widelyacknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indiank?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same timethat has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, inHindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of theM?navadharma??stra. ? For various reasons, I stumbled overVajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary(2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered(ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in thisM?navadharma??stra (MDh): ? ??????????k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |?????????vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| ? ?????????Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall.?????????Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. ? Although not being a direct quotation, the reference toMDh 5.48is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d andMDh 5.48d(quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): ? ?????????n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |?????????na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || ? ?????????One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings,?????????and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, ?????????therefore, abstain from meat. ? While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philologicalevidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that thenotion of an?k??ag?min corresponds to that of akhecara would at least notcontradict the assumption that the author of theVajras?c? may in fact havebeen associated with the social sphere of thesiddh?c?ryas, being also thesphere of Vajray?na. ? Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments forabstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutallyslaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomianVajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reasonfor not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the conciseoutline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A BuddhistPerspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is inMDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. TheVajras?c?,contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically accountfor this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at hisspace-walking colleagues,siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to alsoinclude them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? ? Best wishes,Hartmut Buescher. ? On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher wrote: Dear followers of this thread, ? although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna,?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantricsiddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widelyacknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indiank?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time asthat which has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, inHindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of theM?navadharma??stra. ? For various reasons, I stumbled overVajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary(2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered(ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in thisM?navadharma??stra (MDh): ? ??????????k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |?????????vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| ? ?????????Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall.?????????Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. ? Although not being a direct quotation, the reference toMDh 5.48is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d andMDh 5.48d(quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): ? ?????????n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |?????????na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || ? ?????????One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings,?????????and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, ?????????therefore, abstain from meat. ? While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philologicalevidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that thenotion of an?k??ag?min corresponds to that of akhecara would at least notcontradict the assumption that the author of theVajras?c? may in fact havebeen associated with the social sphere of thesiddh?c?ryas, being also thesphere of Vajray?na. ? Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments forabstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutallyslaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomianVajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reasonfor not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the conciseoutline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A BuddhistPerspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is inMDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. TheVajras?c?,contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically accountfor this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at hisspace-walking colleagues,siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to alsoinclude them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? ? Best wishes,Hartmut Buescher. ? On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Vincent, Thank you for your further comments. I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana??pram??am of the Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of dharma). The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). Dign?ga does deal with?M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a catalogue of translations).? The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name instead of the name of the school. Typically:Kapila????, the founder of S??khya???; Ul?ka?????(a.k.a. Ka??da????), the founder of Vai?e?ika????, and ??abha????, the founder of the Nirgranthas. As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent wrote: Dear Dan,My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during?the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the?M?navadharma??stra. This is especially the case in the so-called?parav?da?section of the?Yog?c?rabh?mi. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics.The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the?Vajras?c?, for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (pram??a); the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected (yukta) with?dharma?and?artha?is authoritative. A [person] for whom a [previously acknowledged]?pram??a?would cease (na bhavet) to be a?pram??a?[because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a?pram??a/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound?dharm?rthayukta, but seriously?doubt that?yukta?here?has anything to do?with the?pram??a?the medical tradition refers to as?yukti?(see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point?I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2nd?to the 5th?century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s?Catu??ataka, and more frequently from the?Yog?c?rabh?mi?onwards).?Very best,Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes? ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05Von:?Dan Lusthaus Gesendet:?Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 An:?Eltschinger, Vincent Cc:?Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff:?Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c??Dear all, Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17)[1]???????[1]????????Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6)?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to?M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s??lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. Harivarman?s?Tattvasiddhi?(translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): ved???pram??a? sm?taya??pram??a??dharm?rthayukta? vacana??pram??am | yasya pram??a??na bhavetpram??a??kastasya kury?dvacana??pram??am || 2 || Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the?CS?[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the?CS?intriguingly proposes, along with the three?prama?n?as?one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of?prama?n?a?occurs in two other parts of the?CS: part 3,?Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique?yukta-prama?n?a?is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Matthew,I was referring to?most?of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire?Vajras?c?. But you are?right, Matthew: the?Mah?bh?rata?plays an important role in the?Vajras?c?, as does??Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the?Vajras?c??attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant?M?navadharma??stra?(if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava?Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the?Vajras?c??is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger.Very best,Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes? ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05??Von:?Matthew Kapstein Gesendet:?Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 An:?Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P;?indology at list.indology.info Betreff:?Re: Vajras?c??Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE."My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes,? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ?From:?Eltschinger, Vincent Sent:?Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To:?Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein ;?indology at list.indology.info? Subject:?AW: Vajras?c??Dear Patrick,As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the???riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910.?It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the?Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the???rd?lakar??vad?na?if not Kum?ral?ta?s?Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the?Vajras?c??to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic:?d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida??/. ?And one observes in some cases that even???dras know the meaning of all???stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?-?em.?:?lagn?-?Ed.) Although such a list is not?per se?impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible,?as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under?A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.)Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as?siddh?c?rya?(k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me.I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic.Very best,Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes? ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05?Von:?INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Gesendet:?Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An:?Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff:?Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c??Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger,?"Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique?WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best,Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes,? Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ?From:?INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent:?Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To:?Indology List Subject:?[INDOLOGY] Vajras?c??Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 20:52:42 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 21:52:42 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <20200126164734.Horde.aqlwtW5zF1DypvLE5_Nhgs8@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: Thanks for the interesting references expanding on the notion of an *?k??ag?min* in immediate textual association with the early A?vagho?a, and likewise to Dan for reminding me/us of YS 3.42. Of course, the spiritual metaphors of moving in(to)/within space and doing so 'auf dem Pfade des Windes' are both ancient and belong together; we just have to recall the frequently studied Vedic hymn ?V 10.136. Thus, considered decontextualized, *Vajras?c?* 12 has little force with respect to revealing much about its historical authorship. Yet, when stumbling over this verse, its authorship had already been disconnected from A?vagho?a, the 1st?2nd century CE author, with the weight of his erudition by Vincent, saying ?we might perhaps agree that the *Vajras?c?* is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger.? Placing the *terminus post quem* into the 3rd-4th century does likewise entail that ?the word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu? as shortly elaborated by Johannes Bronkhorst, however pertinent for the cases adduced, has rather lost its relevance for the *Vajras?c?*. And having not yet met with the notion of an *?k??ag?min* in the various Buddhist philosophical contexts elaborating their notions of *m?rga* in the centuries pointed out as the temporal frame for preliminarily (at the present stage of our knowledge) locating a *terminus post quem*, the question of *siddh?c?rya* as a marker that distinguishes the *Vajras?c?*?s author A?vagho?a from A?vagho?a, the 1st?2nd century CE author, did assume suggestive significance. That is, despite the often questionable reliability of colophons. Yet, once we hypothetically admit the significance of such a marker to socially and historically contextualize a *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a, it is possible to look at the assertion of *Vajras?c?* 12 and try to understand it in the broader context of how the Buddhists historically have dealt with the ethical problem of killing animals/sentient beings and enjoying them as food for human beings (ritually embedded or not). Doing so one may arrive at reasonable results, which nevertheless remain hypothetical ones, unless additionally backed up. All the best, Hartmut On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:48 PM Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > the notion of an *?k??ag?min* > > See also: > > Buddhacarita 1.80: [...] pavanapathena yath?gatam jag?ma. > > Allegorical play (probably by A?vagho?a); description of the eight > ?dhhi-s of the Buddha: ... (pak??)va vyomni y?ti ... (ed. L?ders 1911, > p. 66). > > A?vagho?a's ??riputraprakara?a : ca v?yo? / (L?ders, "Das > ??riputraprakara?a, ein Drama des A?vagho?a", p. 396; n. 4: > "Sicherlich war hier vom Wandeln 'auf dem Pfade des Windes' [...] die > Rede.") > > Best, > Roland Steiner > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Sun Jan 26 20:58:04 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 20 21:58:04 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <1318884124.11680558.1580068500867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Dean, saw your message first now, after having written and sent off mine, and, sure, we agree. Hartmut On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:55 PM Dean Michael Anderson < eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote: > I'd be hesitant in using terms like *?k??agamin *to date a text unless > there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. > Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. > > The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig Veda > X.136 although it uses different terminology. > > In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences may > be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological > responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative > practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras > 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such > experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. > > Best, > > Dean > > > > On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via > INDOLOGY wrote: > > > The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the > Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; > pre-tantra. The term is probably older. > > YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam | > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst via > INDOLOGY wrote: > > > Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. > Even if *Vajras?c?* 12 explicitly refers to *M?nava Dharma??stra* 5.48, > the *Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra* (4.7) does the same (being much closer to > Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers the *M?nava Dharma??stra* > "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". > > There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and > references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is > posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: > > ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? *Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial > Volume Book 2*. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State > University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. > 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) > > Johannes Bronkhorst > > > On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear followers of this thread, > > > although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of > N?g?rjuna, > ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one > previously > referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the > one dated to > the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the > earliest and > greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, JIP > 41 [2013]: 167), > and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle > (?probably > in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, 2018: 24) to > be likewise that > of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. > > > For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in the > commentary > (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been > uttered > (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): > > > *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* > * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* > > > Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. > Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. > > > Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 > is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d > (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): > > > *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* > * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* > > > One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living > beings, > and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he > should, > therefore, abstain from meat. > > > While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient > philological > evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that > the > notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at > least not > contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in fact > have > been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being also > the > sphere of Vajray?na. > > > Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for > abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally > slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the > antinomian > Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason > for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the > concise > outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist > Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses > quoted > above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The *Vajras?c?*, > > contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically > account > for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance > at his > space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been to > also > include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? > > > Best wishes, > Hartmut Buescher > . > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher < > buescherhartmut at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear followers of this thread, > > > although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of > N?g?rjuna, > ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one > previously > referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the > one dated to > the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the > earliest and > greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, JIP > 41 [2013]: 167), > and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by > Olivelle > (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, > 2018: 24) to be > likewise that of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. > > > For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in the > commentary > (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been > uttered > (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): > > > *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* > * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* > > > Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. > Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. > > > Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 > is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d > (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): > > > *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* > * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* > > > One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living > beings, > and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he > should, > therefore, abstain from meat. > > > While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient > philological > evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that > the > notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at > least not > contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in fact > have > been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being also > the > sphere of Vajray?na. > > > Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for > abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally > slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the > antinomian > Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason > for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the > concise > outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist > Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses > quoted > above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The *Vajras?c?*, > > contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically > account > for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance > at his > space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been to > also > include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? > > > Best wishes, > Hartmut Buescher > . > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Vincent, > > Thank you for your further comments. > > I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka > Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the > Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one > parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The > yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was > a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors > shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual > fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple > stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and > being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all > relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a > successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. > In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has > displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since > the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect > reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta > pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse > employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of > dharma). > > The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of > M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove > of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the > Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in > which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already > found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even > S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that > even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). > Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) > Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was > made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a > catalogue of translations). > > The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name > instead of the name of the school. Typically: > Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), the > founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the Nirgranthas. > > As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. > Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. > > Dan > > > On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent < > Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> wrote: > > Dear Dan, > My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct > religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical > type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth > century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not > occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around > the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas > that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on > sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among > these ideas find interesting prototypes in the *M?navadharma??stra*. This > is especially the case in the so-called *parav?da* section of the > *Yog?c?rabh?mi*. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. > The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the *Vajras?c?*, > for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A > rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (*pram??a*); the > Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected ( > *yukta*) with *dharma *and *artha *is authoritative. A [person] for whom > a [previously acknowledged] *pram??a* would cease (*na bhavet*) to be a > *pram??a *[because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the > caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a > *pram??a*/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure > and meaning of the compound *dharm?rthayukta*, but seriously doubt that > *yukta* here has anything to do with the *pram??a* the medical tradition > refers to as *yukti *(see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and > others). Or did I miss the point? > I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2 > nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent > targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the > pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do > the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s *Catu??ataka*, and more > frequently from the *Yog?c?rabh?mi *onwards). > Very best, > Vincent > > Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW > Directeur d'?tudes > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses > Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris > vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr > 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 > ------------------------------ > *Von:* Dan Lusthaus > *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 > *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent > *Cc:* Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? > > Dear all, > > Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any > depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, > Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially > the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get > mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text > preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of > Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: > > ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, > T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) > [1]??????? > [1]??????? > ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is > said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is > that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), > just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? > > ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) > ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the > Vedas is eternal.? > > I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if > anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me > know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his > Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines > suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more > familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s > *?lokavarttika*, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for > subsequent Buddhists. > > Harivarman?s *Tattvasiddhi* (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of > the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains > as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese > prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited > opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as > are Jains. > > As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse > identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse > turns to lineage): > > ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | > yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || > > Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and > analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established > criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as > I wrote elsewhere: > > *"Prama?n?a*-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part > (*Su?tra-stha?na*) of the *CS *[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the *CS *intriguingly > proposes, along with the three *prama?n?as *one would expect (perception, > inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere > else: synthetic inductive reasoning (*yukta-prama?n?a*). Discussion of > *prama?n?a *occurs in two other parts of the *CS*: part 3, > *Vima?na-stha?na*, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique *yukta-prama?n?a *is > absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? > So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. > > Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been > written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition > may have been added by a later hand? > > Dan > > On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Matthew, > I was referring to *most *of the elements of the list I quoted, of > course, not to the entire *Vajras?c?*. But you are right, Matthew: the > *Mah?bh?rata *plays an important role in the *Vajras?c?*, as does? Manu ? > which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the > *Vajras?c? *attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in > the extant *M?navadharma??stra *(if I remember well, this is the reason > why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava > *Dharmas?tra*). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the > *Vajras?c?* is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century > CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. > Very best, > Vincent > > > Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW > Directeur d'?tudes > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses > Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris > vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr > 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 > ------------------------------ > > *Von:* Matthew Kapstein > *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 > *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info > *Betreff:* Re: Vajras?c? > > Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's > remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus > than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most > of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." > My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a > somewhat later period. > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Eltschinger, Vincent > *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM > *To:* Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein < > mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; indology at list.indology.info < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* AW: Vajras?c? > > Dear Patrick, > As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical > understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the > *??riputraprakara?a*/*?aradvat?putraprakara?a*, several fragments of > which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by > Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a > dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and > the philosophical ressources of the *Vajras?c?*, however, are very > different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may > presuppose Buddhist works such as the *??rd?lakar??vad?na *if not > Kum?ral?ta?s *Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?*. Even if I am not aware > of any convincing argument against the attribution of the *Vajras?c?* to > A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: > *d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api > vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? */. > ?And one observes in some cases that even *??dra*s know the meaning of all > *??stra*s such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well > as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-*nagn?- *em. : *lagn?- *Ed.) > Although such a list is not *per se* impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, > i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around > 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, > *as a doxographic statement*, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's > "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) > Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit > colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as *siddh?c?rya *(*k?tir > iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti*), an expression the exact meaning of > which remains somewhat unclear to me. > I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. > Very best, > Vincent > > > Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW > Directeur d'?tudes > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses > Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris > vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr > 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 > ------------------------------ > > *Von:* INDOLOGY im Auftrag von > Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 > *An:* Indology List; Olivelle, J P > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? > > Dear Patrick, > > You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, *"Caste" > et Philosophie Bouddhique *WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the > Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is > attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be > established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to > suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, > not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not > resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in > which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). > > all best, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM > *To:* Indology List > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? > > Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of > Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? > With thanks and best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 03:26:43 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 08:56:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book Message-ID: Dear all Which is the best book to learn Tamil from the scratch. Your help is much appreciated. Thank you. KP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 03:43:04 2020 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 09:13:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: https://www.scribd.com/doc/233254886/An-Intensive-Course-in-Tamil-Dialogues-Drills-Exercises-Vocabulary-Grammar-And-Word-Index-Central-Institute-of-Indian-Languages-1979-CIIL-In On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all > > Which is the best book to learn Tamil from the scratch. Your help is much > appreciated. > > Thank you. > KP > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 03:49:26 2020 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 09:19:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This book does not use Tamil script: https://epdf.pub/colloquial-tamil-the-complete-course-for-beginners-colloquial-series.html On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:13 AM Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > https://www.scribd.com/doc/233254886/An-Intensive-Course-in-Tamil-Dialogues-Drills-Exercises-Vocabulary-Grammar-And-Word-Index-Central-Institute-of-Indian-Languages-1979-CIIL-In > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> Which is the best book to learn Tamil from the scratch. Your help is much >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you. >> KP >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. > Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 13:14:52 2020 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 18:44:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, I'll check it out. On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 9:20 AM Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > This book does not use Tamil script: > > > https://epdf.pub/colloquial-tamil-the-complete-course-for-beginners-colloquial-series.html > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:13 AM Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> >> https://www.scribd.com/doc/233254886/An-Intensive-Course-in-Tamil-Dialogues-Drills-Exercises-Vocabulary-Grammar-And-Word-Index-Central-Institute-of-Indian-Languages-1979-CIIL-In >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear all >>> >>> Which is the best book to learn Tamil from the scratch. Your help is >>> much appreciated. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> KP >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. >> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. > Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Mon Jan 27 18:02:10 2020 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 19:02:10 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <80f3d63b-44f6-1c4d-03c2-4b1406a9b14c@uni-muenchen.de> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Mon Jan 27 20:04:03 2020 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 14:04:03 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0B09AD5A-C9D7-4F2F-AD6F-3ACCB0C5B6C0@aol.com> In this discussion so far, nobody has mentioned the Ma?im?kalai, the Tamil Buddhist epic, usually dated to 6th century CE. In chapter 13, the character ?puttira? who was born to an adulterous Brahmin woman and brought up by a cow, tries to save a cow from being sacrificed by some Brahmins, but is caught by the Brahmins. When they insult ?puttira? as behaving like a son of a cow, he says, ?Acala? was the son of a cow. Ciru?ki was the son of a deer. Viri?ci was the son of a tiger. K?cakampa?a? was the son of a jackal praised by eminent persons/men of real wisdom. Given that these sages of your group were exalted persons of high honors, is there anything degrading in this world to belong to a lineage of a cow, you people of the four Vedas?? Later, when a Brahmin reveals the illegitimate birth of ?puttira?, ?puttira? questions the birth of Agastya and Vasi??ha also. There is a later work called Kapilarakaval which has been published as ?Kapilarahaval: A Tamil Poem on Caste? by A. V. Subramania Aiyar in 1975 with a free English rendering. The text questions the birth of Vasi??ha, ?akti, Par??ara, and Vy?sa. In his introduction and notes Aiyar compares the text with the Ma?im?kalai and the Vajras?ci. This text is dated by Aiyar to the 10th Century CE although others had given it a later date. ? Hope this helps. Regards, Palaniappan From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Indology List Reply-To: Hartmut Buescher Date: Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 2:53 PM To: Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Thanks for the interesting references expanding on the notion of an ?k??ag?min in immediate textual association with the early A?vagho?a, and likewise to Dan for reminding me/us of YS 3.42. Of course, the spiritual metaphors of moving in(to)/within space and doing so 'auf dem Pfade des Windes' are both ancient and belong together; we just have to recall the frequently studied Vedic hymn ?V 10.136. Thus, considered decontextualized, Vajras?c? 12 has little force with respect to revealing much about its historical authorship. Yet, when stumbling over this verse, its authorship had already been disconnected from A?vagho?a, the 1st?2nd century CE author, with the weight of his erudition by Vincent, saying ?we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger.? Placing the terminus post quem into the 3rd-4th century does likewise entail that ?the word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu? as shortly elaborated by Johannes Bronkhorst, however pertinent for the cases adduced, has rather lost its relevance for the Vajras?c?. And having not yet met with the notion of an ?k??ag?min in the various Buddhist philosophical contexts elaborating their notions of m?rga in the centuries pointed out as the temporal frame for preliminarily (at the present stage of our knowledge) locating a terminus post quem, the question of siddh?c?rya as a marker that distinguishes the Vajras?c??s author A?vagho?a from A?vagho?a, the 1st?2nd century CE author, did assume suggestive significance. That is, despite the often questionable reliability of colophons. Yet, once we hypothetically admit the significance of such a marker to socially and historically contextualize a siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a, it is possible to look at the assertion of Vajras?c? 12 and try to understand it in the broader context of how the Buddhists historically have dealt with the ethical problem of killing animals/sentient beings and enjoying them as food for human beings (ritually embedded or not). Doing so one may arrive at reasonable results, which nevertheless remain hypothetical ones, unless additionally backed up. All the best, Hartmut On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:48 PM Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY wrote: > the notion of an *?k??ag?min* See also: Buddhacarita 1.80: [...] pavanapathena yath?gatam jag?ma. Allegorical play (probably by A?vagho?a); description of the eight ?dhhi-s of the Buddha: ... (pak??)va vyomni y?ti ... (ed. L?ders 1911, p. 66). A?vagho?a's ??riputraprakara?a : ca v?yo? / (L?ders, "Das ??riputraprakara?a, ein Drama des A?vagho?a", p. 396; n. 4: "Sicherlich war hier vom Wandeln 'auf dem Pfade des Windes' [...] die Rede.") Best, Roland Steiner _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr Mon Jan 27 22:52:19 2020 From: a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr (a.murugaiyan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 20 23:52:19 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <510d67d6-647c-f81d-a205-5fb6e37a4f23@wanadoo.fr> Dear Colleagues, Here is another book for learning Tamil: Tamil Language in Context: A Comprehensive Approach to Learning Tamil Book by Vasu Renganathan https://www.abebooks.co.uk/Tamil-Language-Context-Vasu-Renganathan-www.thetamillanguage.com/22819621664/bd Best regards A. Murugaiyan Le 27/01/2020 ? 14:14, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > Thanks, I'll check it out. > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 9:20 AM Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > This book does not use Tamil script: > > https://epdf.pub/colloquial-tamil-the-complete-course-for-beginners-colloquial-series.html > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:13 AM Nagaraj Paturi > > wrote: > > https://www.scribd.com/doc/233254886/An-Intensive-Course-in-Tamil-Dialogues-Drills-Exercises-Vocabulary-Grammar-And-Word-Index-Central-Institute-of-Indian-Languages-1979-CIIL-In > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Dear all > > Which is the best book to learn Tamil from the scratch. > Your help?is much appreciated. > > Thank you. > KP > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to > the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your > list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. > Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, > Bengaluru > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of??Liberal > Education, > Hyderabad, Telangana,?INDIA. > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. > Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of??Liberal Education, > Hyderabad, Telangana,?INDIA. > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 01:41:56 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 02:41:56 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, allow me to qualify my previous remark about ?having not yet met with the notion of an *?k??ag?min* in the various Buddhist philosophical contexts elaborating their notions of *m?rga *? ? ? in a beautifully suggestive manner, Prof. Schlingloff rightly pointed out to me, being habitually forgetful, that I may in fact be very well aware of a specific context in which various supernatural accomplishments, including that of ?moving through space?, are regularly thematized. Indeed, it is difficult for Buddhologists not to be aware of the *bodhipakkhiy? * *dhamm?* and, as usual, Buddhagho?a is most entertaining when dealing with the *iddhip?da*s in *Visuddhimagga*, ch. 12. Often, he refers back to the *iddhikath?* chapter of the *Pa?isambhid?magga*, whereas my favourite concise overview (with rather exhaustive references to canonical sources) still is Gethin?s treatment of these *iddhip?da*s in his *The Buddhist Path to Awakening*. For references to corresponding Sanskrit sources treating the *?ddhip?da*s, one may still be benefitted by consulting Har Dayal?s old *Bodhisattva Doctrine*, pp. 104ff. and, of course, Lamotte?s *Trait?* III: 1124f. Still, just as the notion of a *yogin* may be endowed with very different connotations, depending on the textual and traditional context one looks at, the accomplishments of the *?k??ag?min *referred to by *siddh?c?rya* A?vagho?a may perhaps include, or overlap with, the success of those who practice the *iddhip?da*s/*?ddhip?da*s, yet essentially differ (in terms of practical details and ultimate achievement) from the latter, just as a tantric context does crucially differ from a non-tantric one. Thus, though the horizon of what the metaphor of ?moving through/within space? may entail is getting expanded, unfortunately this does not immediately heighten the precision of determining *Vajras?c?*?s authorship. Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 9:58 PM Hartmut Buescher wrote: > Dear Dean, > saw your message first now, after having written and sent off mine, > and, sure, we agree. Hartmut > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:55 PM Dean Michael Anderson < > eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> I'd be hesitant in using terms like *?k??agamin *to date a text unless >> there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. >> Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. >> >> The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig Veda >> X.136 although it uses different terminology. >> >> In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences >> may be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological >> responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative >> practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras >> 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such >> experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. >> >> Best, >> >> Dean >> >> >> >> On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via >> INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> >> The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the >> Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; >> pre-tantra. The term is probably older. >> >> YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam | >> >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> >> On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst via >> INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> >> Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. >> Even if *Vajras?c?* 12 explicitly refers to *M?nava Dharma??stra* 5.48, >> the *Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra* (4.7) does the same (being much closer to >> Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers the *M?nava Dharma??stra* >> "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". >> >> There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and >> references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is >> posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: >> >> ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? *Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial >> Volume Book 2*. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State >> University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. >> 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) >> >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> >> >> On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> Dear followers of this thread, >> >> >> although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of >> N?g?rjuna, >> ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one >> previously >> referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the >> one dated to >> the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the >> earliest and >> greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, JIP >> 41 [2013]: 167), >> and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle >> (?probably >> in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, 2018: 24) to >> be likewise that >> of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. >> >> >> For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in the >> commentary >> (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been >> uttered >> (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): >> >> >> *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* >> * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* >> >> >> Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. >> Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. >> >> >> Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 >> is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d >> (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): >> >> >> *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* >> * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* >> >> >> One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living >> beings, >> and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he >> should, >> therefore, abstain from meat. >> >> >> While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient >> philological >> evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that >> the >> notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at >> least not >> contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in fact >> have >> been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being also >> the >> sphere of Vajray?na. >> >> >> Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for >> abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally >> slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the >> antinomian >> Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason >> for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the >> concise >> outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist >> Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses >> quoted >> above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The >> *Vajras?c?*, >> contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically >> account >> for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance >> at his >> space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been >> to also >> include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? >> >> >> Best wishes, >> Hartmut Buescher >> . >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher < >> buescherhartmut at gmail.com> wrote: >> Dear followers of this thread, >> >> >> although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of >> N?g?rjuna, >> ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one >> previously >> referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the >> one dated to >> the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the >> earliest and >> greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, JIP >> 41 [2013]: 167), >> and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by >> Olivelle >> (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, >> 2018: 24) to be >> likewise that of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. >> >> >> For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in the >> commentary >> (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been >> uttered >> (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): >> >> >> *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* >> * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* >> >> >> Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. >> Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. >> >> >> Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 >> is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d >> (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): >> >> >> *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* >> * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* >> >> >> One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living >> beings, >> and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he >> should, >> therefore, abstain from meat. >> >> >> While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient >> philological >> evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that >> the >> notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at >> least not >> contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in fact >> have >> been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being also >> the >> sphere of Vajray?na. >> >> >> Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for >> abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally >> slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the >> antinomian >> Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason >> for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the >> concise >> outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist >> Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses >> quoted >> above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The >> *Vajras?c?*, >> contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically >> account >> for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance >> at his >> space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been >> to also >> include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? >> >> >> Best wishes, >> Hartmut Buescher >> . >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> Dear Vincent, >> >> Thank you for your further comments. >> >> I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka >> Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the >> Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one >> parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The >> yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was >> a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors >> shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual >> fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple >> stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and >> being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all >> relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a >> successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. >> In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has >> displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since >> the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect >> reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta >> pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse >> employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of >> dharma). >> >> The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of >> M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove >> of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the >> Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in >> which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already >> found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even >> S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that >> even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). >> Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) >> Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was >> made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a >> catalogue of translations). >> >> The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name >> instead of the name of the school. Typically: >> Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), >> the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the >> Nirgranthas. >> >> As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. >> Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. >> >> Dan >> >> >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent < >> Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> wrote: >> >> Dear Dan, >> My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct >> religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical >> type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth >> century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not >> occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around >> the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas >> that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on >> sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among >> these ideas find interesting prototypes in the *M?navadharma??stra*. >> This is especially the case in the so-called *parav?da* section of the >> *Yog?c?rabh?mi*. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. >> The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the *Vajras?c?*, >> for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A >> rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (*pram??a*); >> the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected ( >> *yukta*) with *dharma *and *artha *is authoritative. A [person] for whom >> a [previously acknowledged] *pram??a* would cease (*na bhavet*) to be a >> *pram??a *[because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the >> caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a >> *pram??a*/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure >> and meaning of the compound *dharm?rthayukta*, but seriously doubt that >> *yukta* here has anything to do with the *pram??a* the medical tradition >> refers to as *yukti *(see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and >> others). Or did I miss the point? >> I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st >> -2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent >> targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the >> pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do >> the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s *Catu??ataka*, and more >> frequently from the *Yog?c?rabh?mi *onwards). >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------ >> *Von:* Dan Lusthaus >> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 >> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent >> *Cc:* Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Dear all, >> >> Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any >> depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, >> Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially >> the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get >> mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text >> preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of >> Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: >> >> ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, >> T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) >> [1]??????? >> [1]??????? >> ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What >> is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), >> is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), >> just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? >> >> ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) >> ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the >> Vedas is eternal.? >> >> I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if >> anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me >> know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his >> Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines >> suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more >> familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s >> *?lokavarttika*, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for >> subsequent Buddhists. >> >> Harivarman?s *Tattvasiddhi* (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning >> of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and >> Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in >> Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited >> opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as >> are Jains. >> >> As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse >> identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse >> turns to lineage): >> >> ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | >> yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || >> >> Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and >> analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established >> criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as >> I wrote elsewhere: >> >> *"Prama?n?a*-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first >> part (*Su?tra-stha?na*) of the *CS *[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the *CS *intriguingly >> proposes, along with the three *prama?n?as *one would expect >> (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found >> anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (*yukta-prama?n?a*). >> Discussion of *prama?n?a *occurs in two other parts of the *CS*: part 3, >> *Vima?na-stha?na*, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique *yukta-prama?n?a *is >> absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? >> So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. >> >> Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have >> been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose >> exposition may have been added by a later hand? >> >> Dan >> >> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Matthew, >> I was referring to *most *of the elements of the list I quoted, of >> course, not to the entire *Vajras?c?*. But you are right, Matthew: the >> *Mah?bh?rata *plays an important role in the *Vajras?c?*, as does? Manu >> ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the >> *Vajras?c? *attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in >> the extant *M?navadharma??stra *(if I remember well, this is the reason >> why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava >> *Dharmas?tra*). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the >> *Vajras?c?* is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th >> century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Von:* Matthew Kapstein >> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >> *Betreff:* Re: Vajras?c? >> >> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's >> remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus >> than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most >> of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a >> somewhat later period. >> >> Matthew >> >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Eltschinger, Vincent >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >> *To:* Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein < >> mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; indology at list.indology.info < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* AW: Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical >> understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the >> *??riputraprakara?a*/*?aradvat?putraprakara?a*, several fragments of >> which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by >> Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a >> dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and >> the philosophical ressources of the *Vajras?c?*, however, are very >> different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may >> presuppose Buddhist works such as the *??rd?lakar??vad?na *if not >> Kum?ral?ta?s *Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?*. Even if I am not aware >> of any convincing argument against the attribution of the *Vajras?c?* to >> A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: >> *d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api >> vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? */. >> ?And one observes in some cases that even *??dra*s know the meaning of >> all *??stra*s such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as >> well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-*nagn?- *em. : >> *lagn?- *Ed.) Although such a list is not *per se* impossible in >> A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have >> been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would >> have been possible, *as a doxographic statement*, at that time, and even >> less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list >> is intriguing.) >> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit >> colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as *siddh?c?rya *(*k?tir >> iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti*), an expression the exact meaning >> of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >> Very best, >> Vincent >> >> >> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >> Directeur d'?tudes >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Von:* INDOLOGY im Auftrag von >> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >> *An:* Indology List; Olivelle, J P >> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, *"Caste" >> et Philosophie Bouddhique *WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the >> Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is >> attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be >> established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to >> suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, >> not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not >> resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in >> which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >> >> all best, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >> *To:* Indology List >> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >> >> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of >> Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? >> With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 02:39:01 2020 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 08:09:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Best Tamil learning book In-Reply-To: <80f3d63b-44f6-1c4d-03c2-4b1406a9b14c@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: A Progressive Grammar of the Tamil Language by A.H. Arden is available for download at https://archive.org/details/progressivegramm00ardeiala/mode/2up On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:32 PM Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The problem with the Intensive Course in? series of the CIIL is that they > teach a supposedly 'colloquial' 'spoken' form of the language. I suspect > that Krishnaprasad wants to read Tamil, and then that book (esp. in view > of the diglossia that is typical of Tamil) will be only of limited use. > > Somewhat drily written, but correct and still very useful, is the old A > Progressive Grammar of the Tamil Language by A.H. Arden (Madras: > Christian Literature Society, 1910, with many reprints). That is the book > from which I learnt Tamil. And when you already know Kannada (that's a note > for you, KP), then that book is the fast way. > > RZ > > > Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY wrote on 27.01.20 04:43: > > > https://www.scribd.com/doc/233254886/An-Intensive-Course-in-Tamil-Dialogues-Drills-Exercises-Vocabulary-Grammar-And-Word-Index-Central-Institute-of-Indian-Languages-1979-CIIL-In > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> Which is the best book to learn Tamil from the scratch. Your help is much >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you. >> KP >> > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Institute of Indology and Tibetology > Department of Asian Studies > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU) > Germany > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 07:44:40 2020 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 08:44:40 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Hartmut, In his message to you, Prof. Schlingloff may have modestly omitted a reference to a publication of his that is in fact quite relevant in this regard: D. Schlingloff, *The Superhuman Faculties - Visual Meditation and Miracles in Buddhist Literature and Art*, Buddhismus Studien 9. In addition, it may or may not help to date and localise *siddh?c?rya* A?vagho?a, but could the "Siddha" part in his title point to a "southern" (not necessarily as south as Tamil Nadu, but up to around the Parvata mountain mentioned in the VP) and rasa??stric connection (alleged flying experiences through mercury)? Jan Houben N.B. The itikartavyat? of the quotation may be clear: don't eat meat. But what would the verse really express in its original context? Or what type of ?k??agamana is it referring to? ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| "Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall (or fly, which is the older meaning of pat?). Hence, observing the seers? fall (patana rather than p?ta refers rather to the actual falling, flying?) one should abandon meats." Did these "seers" fall from the sky like Simon Magus after St Peter's prayer? Were they first staying up in space, enjoyed some meat there just like Mary Poppins and Uncle Albert drinking tea at the ceiling of the living room, and did they fall down next? On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 02:42, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > > allow me to qualify my previous remark about ?having not yet met with > > the notion of an *?k??ag?min* in the various Buddhist philosophical > contexts > > elaborating their notions of *m?rga *? ? ? in a beautifully suggestive > manner, > > Prof. Schlingloff rightly pointed out to me, being habitually forgetful, > that > > I may in fact be very well aware of a specific context in which various > > supernatural accomplishments, including that of ?moving through space?, > > are regularly thematized. > > Indeed, it is difficult for Buddhologists not to be aware of the *bodhipakkhiy? > * > > *dhamm?* and, as usual, Buddhagho?a is most entertaining when dealing > with the > > *iddhip?da*s in *Visuddhimagga*, ch. 12. Often, he refers back to the > *iddhikath?* > > chapter of the *Pa?isambhid?magga*, whereas my favourite concise overview > > (with rather exhaustive references to canonical sources) still is Gethin?s > > treatment of these *iddhip?da*s in his *The Buddhist Path to Awakening*. > > For references to corresponding Sanskrit sources treating the *?ddhip?da*s, > > > one may still be benefitted by consulting Har Dayal?s old *Bodhisattva > Doctrine*, > > pp. 104ff. and, of course, Lamotte?s *Trait?* III: 1124f. > > > > Still, just as the notion of a *yogin* may be endowed with very different > > connotations, depending on the textual and traditional context one looks > at, > > the accomplishments of the *?k??ag?min *referred to by *siddh?c?rya* > A?vagho?a > > may perhaps include, or overlap with, the success of those who practice > > the *iddhip?da*s/*?ddhip?da*s, yet essentially differ (in terms of > practical details > > and ultimate achievement) from the latter, just as a tantric context does > crucially > > differ from a non-tantric one. Thus, though the horizon of what the > metaphor of > > ?moving through/within space? may entail is getting expanded, > unfortunately > > this does not immediately heighten the precision of determining > *Vajras?c?*?s > > authorship. > > > > Hartmut Buescher > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 9:58 PM Hartmut Buescher < > buescherhartmut at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Dean, >> saw your message first now, after having written and sent off mine, >> and, sure, we agree. Hartmut >> >> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:55 PM Dean Michael Anderson < >> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> I'd be hesitant in using terms like *?k??agamin *to date a text unless >>> there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. >>> Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. >>> >>> The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig Veda >>> X.136 although it uses different terminology. >>> >>> In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences >>> may be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological >>> responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative >>> practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras >>> 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such >>> experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via >>> INDOLOGY wrote: >>> >>> >>> The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the >>> Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; >>> pre-tantra. The term is probably older. >>> >>> YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam >>> | >>> >>> Dan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst >>> via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> >>> >>> Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. >>> Even if *Vajras?c?* 12 explicitly refers to *M?nava Dharma??stra* 5.48, >>> the *Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra* (4.7) does the same (being much closer to >>> Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers the *M?nava Dharma??stra* >>> "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". >>> >>> There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and >>> references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is >>> posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: >>> >>> ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? *Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial >>> Volume Book 2*. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State >>> University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. >>> 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) >>> >>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>> >>> >>> On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> Dear followers of this thread, >>> >>> >>> although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of >>> N?g?rjuna, >>> ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one >>> previously >>> referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the >>> one dated to >>> the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the >>> earliest and >>> greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, >>> JIP 41 [2013]: 167), >>> and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle >>> (?probably >>> in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, 2018: 24) to >>> be likewise that >>> of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. >>> >>> >>> For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in >>> the commentary >>> (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been >>> uttered >>> (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): >>> >>> >>> *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* >>> * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* >>> >>> >>> Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. >>> Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. >>> >>> >>> Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 >>> is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d >>> (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): >>> >>> >>> *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* >>> * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* >>> >>> >>> One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living >>> beings, >>> and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he >>> should, >>> therefore, abstain from meat. >>> >>> >>> While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient >>> philological >>> evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact >>> that the >>> notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at >>> least not >>> contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in >>> fact have >>> been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being >>> also the >>> sphere of Vajray?na. >>> >>> >>> Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for >>> abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally >>> slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the >>> antinomian >>> Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason >>> for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the >>> concise >>> outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist >>> Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses >>> quoted >>> above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The >>> *Vajras?c?*, >>> contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically >>> account >>> for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a >>> side-glance at his >>> space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been >>> to also >>> include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Hartmut Buescher >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher < >>> buescherhartmut at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Dear followers of this thread, >>> >>> >>> although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of >>> N?g?rjuna, >>> ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the one >>> previously >>> referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the >>> one dated to >>> the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the >>> earliest and >>> greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, >>> JIP 41 [2013]: 167), >>> and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by >>> Olivelle >>> (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, >>> 2018: 24) to be >>> likewise that of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. >>> >>> >>> For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in >>> the commentary >>> (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been >>> uttered >>> (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): >>> >>> >>> *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* >>> * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* >>> >>> >>> Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. >>> Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. >>> >>> >>> Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 >>> is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d >>> (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): >>> >>> >>> *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* >>> * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* >>> >>> >>> One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living >>> beings, >>> and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he >>> should, >>> therefore, abstain from meat. >>> >>> >>> While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient >>> philological >>> evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact >>> that the >>> notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at >>> least not >>> contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in >>> fact have >>> been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being >>> also the >>> sphere of Vajray?na. >>> >>> >>> Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for >>> abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally >>> slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the >>> antinomian >>> Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason >>> for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the >>> concise >>> outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist >>> Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses >>> quoted >>> above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The >>> *Vajras?c?*, >>> contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically >>> account >>> for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a >>> side-glance at his >>> space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been >>> to also >>> include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Hartmut Buescher >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> Dear Vincent, >>> >>> Thank you for your further comments. >>> >>> I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka >>> Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the >>> Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one >>> parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The >>> yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was >>> a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors >>> shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual >>> fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple >>> stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and >>> being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all >>> relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a >>> successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. >>> In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has >>> displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since >>> the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect >>> reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta >>> pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse >>> employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of >>> dharma). >>> >>> The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of >>> M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove >>> of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the >>> Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in >>> which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already >>> found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even >>> S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that >>> even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). >>> Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) >>> Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was >>> made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a >>> catalogue of translations). >>> >>> The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name >>> instead of the name of the school. Typically: >>> Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), >>> the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the >>> Nirgranthas. >>> >>> As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. >>> Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> >>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent < >>> Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Dan, >>> My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a >>> distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely >>> intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time >>> during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though >>> the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). >>> It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started >>> arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later >>> M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), >>> even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the >>> *M?navadharma??stra*. This is especially the case in the so-called >>> *parav?da* section of the *Yog?c?rabh?mi*. Hundreds of pages could be >>> written on these topics. >>> The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the *Vajras?c?*, >>> for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A >>> rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (*pram??a*); >>> the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected ( >>> *yukta*) with *dharma *and *artha *is authoritative. A [person] for >>> whom a [previously acknowledged] *pram??a* would cease (*na bhavet*) to >>> be a *pram??a *[because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of >>> the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to >>> be a *pram??a*/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact >>> structure and meaning of the compound *dharm?rthayukta*, but >>> seriously doubt that *yukta* here has anything to do with the *pram??a* the >>> medical tradition refers to as *yukti *(see articles by Filliozat, >>> Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? >>> I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st >>> -2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent >>> targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the >>> pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do >>> the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s *Catu??ataka*, and more >>> frequently from the *Yog?c?rabh?mi *onwards). >>> Very best, >>> Vincent >>> >>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Von:* Dan Lusthaus >>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 >>> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent >>> *Cc:* Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >>> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any >>> depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, >>> Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially >>> the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get >>> mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text >>> preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of >>> Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: >>> >>> ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, >>> T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) >>> [1]??????? >>> [1]??????? >>> ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What >>> is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), >>> is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), >>> just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? >>> >>> ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) >>> ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the >>> Vedas is eternal.? >>> >>> I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources >>> (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let >>> me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his >>> Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines >>> suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more >>> familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s >>> *?lokavarttika*, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for >>> subsequent Buddhists. >>> >>> Harivarman?s *Tattvasiddhi* (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning >>> of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and >>> Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in >>> Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited >>> opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as >>> are Jains. >>> >>> As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse >>> identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse >>> turns to lineage): >>> >>> ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | >>> yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || >>> >>> Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and >>> analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established >>> criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as >>> I wrote elsewhere: >>> >>> *"Prama?n?a*-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first >>> part (*Su?tra-stha?na*) of the *CS *[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the *CS *intriguingly >>> proposes, along with the three *prama?n?as *one would expect >>> (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found >>> anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (*yukta-prama?n?a*). >>> Discussion of *prama?n?a *occurs in two other parts of the *CS*: part 3, >>> *Vima?na-stha?na*, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique >>> *yukta-prama?n?a *is absent from those discussions, a sign of the >>> strati ed nature of the text.? >>> So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. >>> >>> Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have >>> been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose >>> exposition may have been added by a later hand? >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Matthew, >>> I was referring to *most *of the elements of the list I quoted, of >>> course, not to the entire *Vajras?c?*. But you are right, Matthew: the >>> *Mah?bh?rata *plays an important role in the *Vajras?c?*, as does? Manu >>> ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the >>> *Vajras?c? *attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in >>> the extant *M?navadharma??stra *(if I remember well, this is the reason >>> why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava >>> *Dharmas?tra*). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that >>> the *Vajras?c?* is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th >>> century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >>> Very best, >>> Vincent >>> >>> >>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Von:* Matthew Kapstein >>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >>> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >>> *Betreff:* Re: Vajras?c? >>> >>> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's >>> remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus >>> than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most >>> of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >>> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a >>> somewhat later period. >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Eltschinger, Vincent >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >>> *To:* Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein < >>> mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; indology at list.indology.info < >>> indology at list.indology.info> >>> *Subject:* AW: Vajras?c? >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical >>> understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the >>> *??riputraprakara?a*/*?aradvat?putraprakara?a*, several fragments of >>> which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by >>> Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a >>> dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and >>> the philosophical ressources of the *Vajras?c?*, however, are very >>> different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may >>> presuppose Buddhist works such as the *??rd?lakar??vad?na *if not >>> Kum?ral?ta?s *Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?*. Even if I am not aware >>> of any convincing argument against the attribution of the *Vajras?c?* to >>> A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: >>> *d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api >>> vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? */. >>> ?And one observes in some cases that even *??dra*s know the meaning of >>> all *??stra*s such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as >>> well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-*nagn?- *em. : >>> *lagn?- *Ed.) Although such a list is not *per se* impossible in >>> A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have >>> been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would >>> have been possible, *as a doxographic statement*, at that time, and >>> even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from >>> the list is intriguing.) >>> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit >>> colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as *siddh?c?rya *(*k?tir >>> iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti*), an expression the exact meaning >>> of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >>> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. >>> Very best, >>> Vincent >>> >>> >>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>> Directeur d'?tudes >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Von:* INDOLOGY im Auftrag von >>> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >>> *An:* Indology List; Olivelle, J P >>> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, *"Caste" >>> et Philosophie Bouddhique *WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the >>> Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is >>> attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be >>> established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to >>> suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, >>> not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not >>> resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in >>> which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >>> >>> all best, >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >>> *To:* Indology List >>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>> >>> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of >>> Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? >>> With thanks and best wishes, >>> >>> Patrick Olivelle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at Tue Jan 28 09:04:05 2020 From: Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at (Eltschinger, Vincent) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 09:04:05 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Very briefly, and apologizing for not having followed as carefully as I should all the recent avat?ras of this thread... The Vajras?c? quotes these two verses (11-12) together and most explicitly ascribes them to Manu (m?navadharmapr?m??y?d api. ukta? hi m?nave dharme ato m?navadharmapr?m??y?j j?tis t?vad br?hma?o na bhavati.). Only the first can be traced in the Manusm?ti. It is MDh? 10.92: sadya? patati m??sena l?k?ay? lava?ena ca / tryah?c ch?dra? ca bhavati br?hma?a? k??ravikray? //. ?By selling meat, lac, or salt, a Brahmin falls immediately from his caste; by selling milk, he becomes a ??dra in three days.? (Translation P. Olivelle, Manu?s Law Code, OUP 2005, p. 212.) As for the second verse, it is the one we are interested in: ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t / vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet //. I must confess that everytime I read this verse I cannot help smiling/laughing. I am in fact very much inclined to see an ironic/sarcastic touch in it. Translating a bit freely, and in accordance with my feeling: ?Brahmins (vipra) who are [generally] flying in the air fall from eating meat; seing [how deep] the Brahmins have fallen, one should [certainly] refrain from [eating] meat.? The verse does not appear in the Manusm?ti and cannot be found in the Y?j?avalkyasm?ti parallel either (3.40). Now of course, such irony ? if the verse is ironic at all ? is not really to be expected from orthodox Brahmanical treatises such as the Manusm?ti (or even a hypothetically lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Could it be a (Buddhist? Vajras?c??) forgery? It is certainly true that Buddhist philosophical treatises would normally not ascribe verses forged by their authors, or predecessors, to their opponents, Brahmanical or not ? how could this be taken seriously in the framework of philosophical/scientific controversy? But the Vajras?c? is by no means a philosopical treatise, and I am personally not ready to give it more weight than its poor argumentative strength deserves. Like most Buddhist tracts against the orthodox Brahmanical interpretation of the caste-classes, and especially against what the Buddhists almost unanimously regard as the Brahmins? ill-founded pride in caste/personal conceit, the Vajras?c? is itself very often ironic/sarcastic. This is of course just a feeling, and I would certainly be very happy to learn more about the origin/original context of this stanza, orthodox Brahmanical or not. With best regards, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Januar 2020 08:44:40 An: Hartmut Buescher Cc: Indology Mailing List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Hartmut, In his message to you, Prof. Schlingloff may have modestly omitted a reference to a publication of his that is in fact quite relevant in this regard: D. Schlingloff, The Superhuman Faculties - Visual Meditation and Miracles in Buddhist Literature and Art, Buddhismus Studien 9. In addition, it may or may not help to date and localise siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a, but could the "Siddha" part in his title point to a "southern" (not necessarily as south as Tamil Nadu, but up to around the Parvata mountain mentioned in the VP) and rasa??stric connection (alleged flying experiences through mercury)? Jan Houben N.B. The itikartavyat? of the quotation may be clear: don't eat meat. But what would the verse really express in its original context? Or what type of ?k??agamana is it referring to? ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| "Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall (or fly, which is the older meaning of pat?). Hence, observing the seers? fall (patana rather than p?ta refers rather to the actual falling, flying?) one should abandon meats." Did these "seers" fall from the sky like Simon Magus after St Peter's prayer? Were they first staying up in space, enjoyed some meat there just like Mary Poppins and Uncle Albert drinking tea at the ceiling of the living room, and did they fall down next? On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 02:42, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, allow me to qualify my previous remark about ?having not yet met with the notion of an ?k??ag?min in the various Buddhist philosophical contexts elaborating their notions of m?rga ? ? ? in a beautifully suggestive manner, Prof. Schlingloff rightly pointed out to me, being habitually forgetful, that I may in fact be very well aware of a specific context in which various supernatural accomplishments, including that of ?moving through space?, are regularly thematized. Indeed, it is difficult for Buddhologists not to be aware of the bodhipakkhiy? dhamm? and, as usual, Buddhagho?a is most entertaining when dealing with the iddhip?das in Visuddhimagga, ch. 12. Often, he refers back to the iddhikath? chapter of the Pa?isambhid?magga, whereas my favourite concise overview (with rather exhaustive references to canonical sources) still is Gethin?s treatment of these iddhip?das in his The Buddhist Path to Awakening. For references to corresponding Sanskrit sources treating the ?ddhip?das, one may still be benefitted by consulting Har Dayal?s old Bodhisattva Doctrine, pp. 104ff. and, of course, Lamotte?s Trait? III: 1124f. Still, just as the notion of a yogin may be endowed with very different connotations, depending on the textual and traditional context one looks at, the accomplishments of the ?k??ag?min referred to by siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a may perhaps include, or overlap with, the success of those who practice the iddhip?das/?ddhip?das, yet essentially differ (in terms of practical details and ultimate achievement) from the latter, just as a tantric context does crucially differ from a non-tantric one. Thus, though the horizon of what the metaphor of ?moving through/within space? may entail is getting expanded, unfortunately this does not immediately heighten the precision of determining Vajras?c??s authorship. Hartmut Buescher On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 9:58 PM Hartmut Buescher > wrote: Dear Dean, saw your message first now, after having written and sent off mine, and, sure, we agree. Hartmut On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:55 PM Dean Michael Anderson > wrote: I'd be hesitant in using terms like ?k??agamin to date a text unless there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig Veda X.136 although it uses different terminology. In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences may be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. Best, Dean On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; pre-tantra. The term is probably older. YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam | Dan _______________________________________________ On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY > wrote: Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. Even if Vajras?c? 12 explicitly refers to M?nava Dharma??stra 5.48, the Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra (4.7) does the same (being much closer to Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers the M?nava Dharma??stra "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial Volume Book 2. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) Johannes Bronkhorst On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric siddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian k?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in Hindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the M?navadharma??stra. For various reasons, I stumbled over Vajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in this M?navadharma??stra (MDh): ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit | na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an ?k??ag?min corresponds to that of a khecara would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the Vajras?c? may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the siddh?c?ryas, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The Vajras?c?, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher > wrote: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric siddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian k?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in Hindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the M?navadharma??stra. For various reasons, I stumbled over Vajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in this M?navadharma??stra (MDh): ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit | na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an ?k??ag?min corresponds to that of a khecara would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the Vajras?c? may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the siddh?c?ryas, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The Vajras?c?, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Vincent, Thank you for your further comments. I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of dharma). The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a catalogue of translations). The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name instead of the name of the school. Typically: Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the Nirgranthas. As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent > wrote: Dear Dan, My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the M?navadharma??stra. This is especially the case in the so-called parav?da section of the Yog?c?rabh?mi. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the Vajras?c?, for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (pram??a); the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected (yukta) with dharma and artha is authoritative. A [person] for whom a [previously acknowledged] pram??a would cease (na bhavet) to be a pram??a [because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a pram??a/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound dharm?rthayukta, but seriously doubt that yukta here has anything to do with the pram??a the medical tradition refers to as yukti (see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka, and more frequently from the Yog?c?rabh?mi onwards). Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Dan Lusthaus > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 An: Eltschinger, Vincent Cc: Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear all, Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) [1]??????? [1]??????? ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Matthew, I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Matthew Kapstein > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Eltschinger, Vincent > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: AW: Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jan E.M. Houben Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) Sciences historiques et philologiques johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From buescherhartmut at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 09:20:30 2020 From: buescherhartmut at gmail.com (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 10:20:30 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, almost inexcusable, focussed on collecting those references provided, I simply forgot to mention it. Was just about to rectify this omission, when I saw that it was already done. Sorry and thanks, Hartmut On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:44 AM Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Hartmut, > In his message to you, Prof. Schlingloff may have modestly omitted a > reference to a publication of his that is in fact quite relevant in this > regard: > D. Schlingloff, *The Superhuman Faculties - Visual Meditation and > Miracles in Buddhist Literature and Art*, Buddhismus Studien 9. > In addition, it may or may not help to date and localise *siddh?c?rya* A?vagho?a, > but could the "Siddha" part in his title point to a "southern" (not > necessarily as south as Tamil Nadu, but up to around the Parvata mountain > mentioned in the VP) and rasa??stric connection (alleged flying > experiences through mercury)? > Jan Houben > N.B. > The itikartavyat? of the quotation may be clear: don't eat meat. > But what would the verse really express in its original context? > Or what type of ?k??agamana is it referring to? > ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | > vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| > "Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall (or fly, which is > the older meaning of pat?). > Hence, observing the seers? fall (patana rather than p?ta refers rather to > the actual falling, flying?) one should abandon meats." > Did these "seers" fall from the sky like Simon Magus after St Peter's > prayer? > Were they first staying up in space, enjoyed some meat there just like > Mary Poppins and Uncle Albert drinking tea at the ceiling of the living > room, and did they fall down next? > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 02:42, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> >> >> allow me to qualify my previous remark about ?having not yet met with >> >> the notion of an *?k??ag?min* in the various Buddhist philosophical >> contexts >> >> elaborating their notions of *m?rga *? ? ? in a beautifully suggestive >> manner, >> >> Prof. Schlingloff rightly pointed out to me, being habitually forgetful, >> that >> >> I may in fact be very well aware of a specific context in which various >> >> supernatural accomplishments, including that of ?moving through space?, >> >> are regularly thematized. >> >> Indeed, it is difficult for Buddhologists not to be aware of the *bodhipakkhiy? >> * >> >> *dhamm?* and, as usual, Buddhagho?a is most entertaining when dealing >> with the >> >> *iddhip?da*s in *Visuddhimagga*, ch. 12. Often, he refers back to the >> *iddhikath?* >> >> chapter of the *Pa?isambhid?magga*, whereas my favourite concise overview >> >> (with rather exhaustive references to canonical sources) still is Gethin?s >> >> treatment of these *iddhip?da*s in his *The Buddhist Path to Awakening*. >> >> For references to corresponding Sanskrit sources treating the *?ddhip?da*s, >> >> >> one may still be benefitted by consulting Har Dayal?s old *Bodhisattva >> Doctrine*, >> >> pp. 104ff. and, of course, Lamotte?s *Trait?* III: 1124f. >> >> >> >> Still, just as the notion of a *yogin* may be endowed with very >> different >> >> connotations, depending on the textual and traditional context one looks >> at, >> >> the accomplishments of the *?k??ag?min *referred to by *siddh?c?rya* >> A?vagho?a >> >> may perhaps include, or overlap with, the success of those who practice >> >> the *iddhip?da*s/*?ddhip?da*s, yet essentially differ (in terms of >> practical details >> >> and ultimate achievement) from the latter, just as a tantric context does >> crucially >> >> differ from a non-tantric one. Thus, though the horizon of what the >> metaphor of >> >> ?moving through/within space? may entail is getting expanded, >> unfortunately >> >> this does not immediately heighten the precision of determining >> *Vajras?c?*?s >> >> authorship. >> >> >> >> Hartmut Buescher >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 9:58 PM Hartmut Buescher < >> buescherhartmut at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Dean, >>> saw your message first now, after having written and sent off mine, >>> and, sure, we agree. Hartmut >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:55 PM Dean Michael Anderson < >>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I'd be hesitant in using terms like *?k??agamin *to date a text unless >>>> there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. >>>> Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. >>>> >>>> The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig >>>> Veda X.136 although it uses different terminology. >>>> >>>> In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences >>>> may be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological >>>> responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative >>>> practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras >>>> 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such >>>> experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Dean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via >>>> INDOLOGY wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the >>>> Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; >>>> pre-tantra. The term is probably older. >>>> >>>> YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? >>>> c?k??agamanam | >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst >>>> via INDOLOGY wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to >>>> Manu. Even if *Vajras?c?* 12 explicitly refers to *M?nava Dharma??stra* >>>> 5.48, the *Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra* (4.7) does the same (being much >>>> closer to Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers the *M?nava >>>> Dharma??stra* "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". >>>> >>>> There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and >>>> references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is >>>> posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: >>>> >>>> ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? *Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial >>>> Volume Book 2*. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State >>>> University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. >>>> 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) >>>> >>>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> Dear followers of this thread, >>>> >>>> >>>> although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of >>>> N?g?rjuna, >>>> ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the >>>> one previously >>>> referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course >>>> the one dated to >>>> the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the >>>> earliest and >>>> greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, >>>> JIP 41 [2013]: 167), >>>> and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle >>>> (?probably >>>> in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, 2018: 24) >>>> to be likewise that >>>> of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. >>>> >>>> >>>> For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in >>>> the commentary >>>> (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been >>>> uttered >>>> (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): >>>> >>>> >>>> *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* >>>> * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* >>>> >>>> >>>> Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. >>>> Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. >>>> >>>> >>>> Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 >>>> is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d >>>> (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): >>>> >>>> >>>> *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* >>>> * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* >>>> >>>> >>>> One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living >>>> beings, >>>> and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he >>>> should, >>>> therefore, abstain from meat. >>>> >>>> >>>> While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient >>>> philological >>>> evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact >>>> that the >>>> notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at >>>> least not >>>> contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in >>>> fact have >>>> been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being >>>> also the >>>> sphere of Vajray?na. >>>> >>>> >>>> Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for >>>> abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally >>>> slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the >>>> antinomian >>>> Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist >>>> reason >>>> for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the >>>> concise >>>> outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist >>>> Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two >>>> verses quoted >>>> above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The >>>> *Vajras?c?*, >>>> contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically >>>> account >>>> for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a >>>> side-glance at his >>>> space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been >>>> to also >>>> include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Hartmut Buescher >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher < >>>> buescherhartmut at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Dear followers of this thread, >>>> >>>> >>>> although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of >>>> N?g?rjuna, >>>> ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric *siddh?c?rya*, the >>>> one previously >>>> referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course >>>> the one dated to >>>> the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the >>>> earliest and >>>> greatest representatives of Indian *k?vya* literature? (Eltschinger, >>>> JIP 41 [2013]: 167), >>>> and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by >>>> Olivelle >>>> (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in *Hindu **Law*, >>>> 2018: 24) to be >>>> likewise that of the composition of the *M?navadharma??stra*. >>>> >>>> >>>> For various reasons, I stumbled over *Vajras?c?*, verse 12, which in >>>> the commentary >>>> (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been >>>> uttered >>>> (*ukta? hi m?nave dharme*) in this *M?navadharma??stra* (MDh): >>>> >>>> >>>> *?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t |* >>>> * vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12||* >>>> >>>> >>>> Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. >>>> Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. >>>> >>>> >>>> Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 >>>> is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d >>>> (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): >>>> >>>> >>>> *n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit |* >>>> * na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 ||* >>>> >>>> >>>> One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living >>>> beings, >>>> and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he >>>> should, >>>> therefore, abstain from meat. >>>> >>>> >>>> While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient >>>> philological >>>> evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact >>>> that the >>>> notion of an *?k??ag?min* corresponds to that of a *khecara* would at >>>> least not >>>> contradict the assumption that the author of the *Vajras?c?* may in >>>> fact have >>>> been associated with the social sphere of the *siddh?c?rya*s, being >>>> also the >>>> sphere of Vajray?na. >>>> >>>> >>>> Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for >>>> abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally >>>> slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the >>>> antinomian >>>> Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist >>>> reason >>>> for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the >>>> concise >>>> outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist >>>> Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two >>>> verses quoted >>>> above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The >>>> *Vajras?c?*, >>>> contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically >>>> account >>>> for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a >>>> side-glance at his >>>> space-walking colleagues, *siddh?c?rya *A?vagho?a?s intention has been >>>> to also >>>> include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Hartmut Buescher >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> Dear Vincent, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your further comments. >>>> >>>> I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka >>>> Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the >>>> Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one >>>> parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The >>>> yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was >>>> a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors >>>> shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual >>>> fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple >>>> stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and >>>> being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all >>>> relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a >>>> successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. >>>> In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has >>>> displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since >>>> the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect >>>> reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta >>>> pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse >>>> employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of >>>> dharma). >>>> >>>> The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of >>>> M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove >>>> of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the >>>> Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in >>>> which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already >>>> found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even >>>> S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that >>>> even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). >>>> Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no >>>> (available) Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle >>>> translation was made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its >>>> title in a catalogue of translations). >>>> >>>> The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name >>>> instead of the name of the school. Typically: >>>> Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), >>>> the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the >>>> Nirgranthas. >>>> >>>> As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. >>>> Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent < >>>> Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Dan, >>>> My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a >>>> distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely >>>> intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time >>>> during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though >>>> the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). >>>> It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started >>>> arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later >>>> M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), >>>> even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the >>>> *M?navadharma??stra*. This is especially the case in the so-called >>>> *parav?da* section of the *Yog?c?rabh?mi*. Hundreds of pages could be >>>> written on these topics. >>>> The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the *Vajras?c?*, >>>> for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A >>>> rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (*pram??a*); >>>> the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected ( >>>> *yukta*) with *dharma *and *artha *is authoritative. A [person] for >>>> whom a [previously acknowledged] *pram??a* would cease (*na bhavet*) >>>> to be a *pram??a *[because it contradicts his/her position on the >>>> issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her >>>> speech/discourse to be a *pram??a*/authoritative?? One can certainly >>>> discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound >>>> *dharm?rthayukta*, but seriously doubt that *yukta* here has anything >>>> to do with the *pram??a* the medical tradition refers to as *yukti *(see >>>> articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? >>>> I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1 >>>> st-2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most >>>> frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by >>>> [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as >>>> do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s *Catu??ataka*, and more >>>> frequently from the *Yog?c?rabh?mi *onwards). >>>> Very best, >>>> Vincent >>>> >>>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>>> Directeur d'?tudes >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Von:* Dan Lusthaus >>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 >>>> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent >>>> *Cc:* Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >>>> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any >>>> depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, >>>> Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially >>>> the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get >>>> mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text >>>> preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of >>>> Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: >>>> >>>> ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, >>>> T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) >>>> [1]??????? >>>> [1]??????? >>>> ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What >>>> is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), >>>> is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), >>>> just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? >>>> >>>> ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, >>>> c5-6) >>>> ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of >>>> the Vedas is eternal.? >>>> >>>> I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources >>>> (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let >>>> me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his >>>> Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines >>>> suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more >>>> familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s >>>> *?lokavarttika*, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for >>>> subsequent Buddhists. >>>> >>>> Harivarman?s *Tattvasiddhi* (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning >>>> of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and >>>> Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in >>>> Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited >>>> opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as >>>> are Jains. >>>> >>>> As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse >>>> identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse >>>> turns to lineage): >>>> >>>> ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | >>>> yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 >>>> || >>>> >>>> Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, >>>> and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the >>>> established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da >>>> era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: >>>> >>>> *"Prama?n?a*-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first >>>> part (*Su?tra-stha?na*) of the *CS *[Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the *CS *intriguingly >>>> proposes, along with the three *prama?n?as *one would expect >>>> (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found >>>> anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (*yukta-prama?n?a*). >>>> Discussion of *prama?n?a *occurs in two other parts of the *CS*: part >>>> 3, *Vima?na-stha?na*, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique >>>> *yukta-prama?n?a *is absent from those discussions, a sign of the >>>> strati ed nature of the text.? >>>> So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that >>>> category. >>>> >>>> Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have >>>> been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose >>>> exposition may have been added by a later hand? >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Matthew, >>>> I was referring to *most *of the elements of the list I quoted, of >>>> course, not to the entire *Vajras?c?*. But you are right, Matthew: the >>>> *Mah?bh?rata *plays an important role in the *Vajras?c?*, as does? Manu >>>> ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the >>>> *Vajras?c? *attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced >>>> in the extant *M?navadharma??stra *(if I remember well, this is the >>>> reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava >>>> *Dharmas?tra*). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that >>>> the *Vajras?c?* is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th >>>> century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. >>>> Very best, >>>> Vincent >>>> >>>> >>>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>>> Directeur d'?tudes >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Von:* Matthew Kapstein >>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 >>>> *An:* Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info >>>> *Betreff:* Re: Vajras?c? >>>> >>>> Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's >>>> remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus >>>> than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most >>>> of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." >>>> My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a >>>> somewhat later period. >>>> >>>> Matthew >>>> >>>> >>>> Matthew Kapstein >>>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>>> >>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>>> The University of Chicago >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* Eltschinger, Vincent >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM >>>> *To:* Olivelle, J P ; Matthew Kapstein < >>>> mkapstei at uchicago.edu>; indology at list.indology.info < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> >>>> *Subject:* AW: Vajras?c? >>>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>> As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical >>>> understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the >>>> *??riputraprakara?a*/*?aradvat?putraprakara?a*, several fragments of >>>> which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by >>>> Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a >>>> dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and >>>> the philosophical ressources of the *Vajras?c?*, however, are very >>>> different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may >>>> presuppose Buddhist works such as the *??rd?lakar??vad?na *if not >>>> Kum?ral?ta?s *Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?*. Even if I am not >>>> aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the >>>> *Vajras?c?* to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following >>>> statement as anachronistic: *d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api >>>> vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? */. >>>> ?And one observes in some cases that even *??dra*s know the meaning of >>>> all *??stra*s such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika >>>> as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-*nagn?- *em. : >>>> *lagn?- *Ed.) Although such a list is not *per se* impossible in >>>> A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have >>>> been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would >>>> have been possible, *as a doxographic statement*, at that time, and >>>> even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from >>>> the list is intriguing.) >>>> Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit >>>> colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as *siddh?c?rya *(*k?tir >>>> iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti*), an expression the exact meaning >>>> of which remains somewhat unclear to me. >>>> I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting >>>> topic. >>>> Very best, >>>> Vincent >>>> >>>> >>>> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW >>>> Directeur d'?tudes >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses >>>> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris >>>> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Von:* INDOLOGY im Auftrag von >>>> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >>>> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 >>>> *An:* Indology List; Olivelle, J P >>>> *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>> >>>> You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, *"Caste" >>>> et Philosophie Bouddhique *WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the >>>> Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is >>>> attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be >>>> established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to >>>> suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, >>>> not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not >>>> resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in >>>> which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). >>>> >>>> all best, >>>> Matthew >>>> >>>> Matthew Kapstein >>>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>>> >>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>>> The University of Chicago >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>>> Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM >>>> *To:* Indology List >>>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? >>>> >>>> Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author >>>> of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible >>>> date? With thanks and best wishes, >>>> >>>> Patrick Olivelle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Jan 28 09:34:52 2020 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 09:34:52 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:__Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <61ED7D6F-C87C-4D44-B80F-86DE658107E3@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <06660DDA-7B10-49CF-965D-9C2A6636B4CA@uclouvain.be> A variant-reading of the stanza can be found in "Kalpadrumavadanamala, based on the text appended to P.L. Vaidya's edition of the Avadanasataka (Darbhanga 1958, Buddhist Sanskrit Texts ; 19) - Input by Klaus Wille, G?ttingen" on GRETIL: ?k??ag?mino priy?? KDA_215a patit? m??sabhak?a??t* KDA_215b vipr???? patana? d???v? KDA_215c tato m??s?ni varjayet KDA_215d There is also some formal similarity with MBh 12,186.013a yaju?? sa?sk?ta? m??sa? niv?tto m??sabhak?a??t 12,186.013c na bhak?ayed v?th?m??sa? p???ham??sa? ca varjayet Le 28 janv. 2020 ? 10:04, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear colleagues, Very briefly, and apologizing for not having followed as carefully as I should all the recent avat?ras of this thread... The Vajras?c? quotes these two verses (11-12) together and most explicitly ascribes them to Manu (m?navadharmapr?m??y?d api. ukta? hi m?nave dharme ato m?navadharmapr?m??y?j j?tis t?vad br?hma?o na bhavati.). Only the first can be traced in the Manusm?ti. It is MDh? 10.92: sadya? patati m??sena l?k?ay? lava?ena ca / tryah?c ch?dra? ca bhavati br?hma?a? k??ravikray? //. ?By selling meat, lac, or salt, a Brahmin falls immediately from his caste; by selling milk, he becomes a ??dra in three days.? (Translation P. Olivelle, Manu?s Law Code, OUP 2005, p. 212.) As for the second verse, it is the one we are interested in:?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t / vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet //. I must confess that everytime I read this verse I cannot help smiling/laughing. I am in fact very much inclined to see an ironic/sarcastic touch in it. Translating a bit freely, and in accordance with my feeling: ?Brahmins (vipra) who are [generally] flying in the air fall from eating meat; seing [how deep] the Brahmins have fallen, one should [certainly] refrain from [eating] meat.? The verse does not appear in the Manusm?ti and cannot be found in theY?j?avalkyasm?ti parallel either (3.40). Now of course, such irony ? if the verse is ironic at all ? is not really to be expected from orthodox Brahmanical treatises such as the Manusm?ti (or even a hypothetically lost M?navaDharmas?tra). Could it be a (Buddhist? Vajras?c??) forgery? It is certainly true that Buddhist philosophical treatises would normally not ascribe verses forged by their authors, or predecessors, to their opponents, Brahmanical or not ? how could this be taken seriously in the framework of philosophical/scientific controversy? But the Vajras?c? is by no means a philosopical treatise, and I am personally not ready to give it more weight than its poor argumentative strength deserves. Like most Buddhist tracts against the orthodox Brahmanical interpretation of the caste-classes, and especially against what the Buddhists almost unanimously regard as the Brahmins? ill-founded pride in caste/personal conceit, the Vajras?c? is itself very often ironic/sarcastic. This is of course just a feeling, and I would certainly be very happy to learn more about the origin/original context of this stanza, orthodox Brahmanical or not. With best regards, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY > Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Januar 2020 08:44:40 An: Hartmut Buescher Cc: Indology Mailing List Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Hartmut, In his message to you, Prof. Schlingloff may have modestly omitted a reference to a publication of his that is in fact quite relevant in this regard: D. Schlingloff, The Superhuman Faculties - Visual Meditation and Miracles in Buddhist Literature and Art, Buddhismus Studien 9. In addition, it may or may not help to date and localise siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a, but could the "Siddha" part in his title point to a "southern" (not necessarily as south as Tamil Nadu, but up to around the Parvata mountain mentioned in the VP) and rasa??stric connection (alleged flying experiences through mercury)? Jan Houben N.B. The itikartavyat? of the quotation may be clear: don't eat meat. But what would the verse really express in its original context? Or what type of ?k??agamana is it referring to? ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| "Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall (or fly, which is the older meaning of pat?). Hence, observing the seers? fall (patana rather than p?ta refers rather to the actual falling, flying?) one should abandon meats." Did these "seers" fall from the sky like Simon Magus after St Peter's prayer? Were they first staying up in space, enjoyed some meat there just like Mary Poppins and Uncle Albert drinking tea at the ceiling of the living room, and did they fall down next? On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 02:42, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, allow me to qualify my previous remark about ?having not yet met with the notion of an ?k??ag?min in the various Buddhist philosophical contexts elaborating their notions of m?rga ? ? ? in a beautifully suggestive manner, Prof. Schlingloff rightly pointed out to me, being habitually forgetful, that I may in fact be very well aware of a specific context in which various supernatural accomplishments, including that of ?moving through space?, are regularly thematized. Indeed, it is difficult for Buddhologists not to be aware of the bodhipakkhiy? dhamm? and, as usual, Buddhagho?a is most entertaining when dealing with the iddhip?das in Visuddhimagga, ch. 12. Often, he refers back to the iddhikath? chapter of the Pa?isambhid?magga, whereas my favourite concise overview (with rather exhaustive references to canonical sources) still is Gethin?s treatment of these iddhip?das in his The Buddhist Path to Awakening. For references to corresponding Sanskrit sources treating the ?ddhip?das, one may still be benefitted by consulting Har Dayal?s old Bodhisattva Doctrine, pp. 104ff. and, of course, Lamotte?s Trait? III: 1124f. Still, just as the notion of a yogin may be endowed with very different connotations, depending on the textual and traditional context one looks at, the accomplishments of the ?k??ag?min referred to by siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a may perhaps include, or overlap with, the success of those who practice the iddhip?das/?ddhip?das, yet essentially differ (in terms of practical details and ultimate achievement) from the latter, just as a tantric context does crucially differ from a non-tantric one. Thus, though the horizon of what the metaphor of ?moving through/within space? may entail is getting expanded, unfortunately this does not immediately heighten the precision of determining Vajras?c??s authorship. Hartmut Buescher On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 9:58 PM Hartmut Buescher > wrote: Dear Dean, saw your message first now, after having written and sent off mine, and, sure, we agree. Hartmut On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:55 PM Dean Michael Anderson > wrote: I'd be hesitant in using terms like ?k??agamin to date a text unless there was an indication that it was part of a larger established doctrine. Those kinds of abilities were regularly mentioned. The idea of sages moving through space is mentioned as early as Rig Veda X.136 although it uses different terminology. In a forthcoming publication, I discuss how those types of experiences may be part of a body of experiences that are universal psychological responses to certain psychophysiological stimuli such as meditative practices, entraining to rhythmic chanting, drugs, etc. (See Yoga Sutras 4.1) I call it the yogic-shamanic continuum. Given that, using such experiences alone to date a text would probably be misleading. Best, Dean On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 4:30:43 PM GMT+5:30, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: The idea of practitioners who become ?k??agamin is already in the Yogas?tra (4th-5th century? earlier?) which explains how to do it; pre-tantra. The term is probably older. YS 3, 42 k?y?k??ayo? sa?bandhasa?yam?l laghut?lasam?patte? c?k??agamanam | Dan _______________________________________________ On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 3:12:46 PM GMT+5:30, Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY > wrote: Allow me to add a word of caution about chronology with respect to Manu. Even if Vajras?c? 12 explicitly refers to M?nava Dharma??stra 5.48, the Vasi??ha Dharmas?tra (4.7) does the same (being much closer to Manu's text). And yet, Olivelle considers theM?nava Dharma??stra "clearly posterior to Vasi??ha". There are other cases which show that even literal quotations from and references to Manu do not necessarily prove that the text concerned is posterior to Manu. I discuss them in detail in the following article: ?Manu and the Mah?bh?rata.? Indologica. T. Ya. Elizarenkova Memorial Volume Book 2. Ed. L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov. Moscow: Russian State University for the Humanities. 2012. (Orientalia et Classica, 40.) Pp. 135-156. (available on Academia and ResearchGate) Johannes Bronkhorst On 26 Jan 2020, at 03:57, Hartmut Buescher via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric siddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian k?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time that has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in Hindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the M?navadharma??stra. For various reasons, I stumbled over Vajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in this M?navadharma??stra (MDh): ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit | na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an ?k??ag?min corresponds to that of a khecara would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the Vajras?c? may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the siddh?c?ryas, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The Vajras?c?, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 4:52 AM Hartmut Buescher > wrote: Dear followers of this thread, although there may have been several A?vagho?as (as in the cases of N?g?rjuna, ?ryadeva, Vasubandhu, etc.), including a Tantric siddh?c?rya, the one previously referred to as our point of departure in this context, is of course the one dated to the 1st?2nd century CE, who ?is widely acknowledged as one of the earliest and greatest representatives of Indian k?vya literature? (Eltschinger, JIP 41 [2013]: 167), and who lived around the same time as that which has been estimated by Olivelle (?probably in the middle of the second century CE?, in Hindu Law, 2018: 24) to be likewise that of the composition of the M?navadharma??stra. For various reasons, I stumbled over Vajras?c?, verse 12, which in the commentary (2nd ed. Mukhopadhyaya, 1960: 3) is introduced as having actually been uttered (ukta? hi m?nave dharme) in this M?navadharma??stra (MDh): ?k??ag?mino vipr?? patanti m??sabhak?a??t | vipr???? patana? d???v? tato m??s?ni varjayet ||12|| Due to consuming meat, the space-walking seers do fall. Hence, observing the seers? fall one should abandon meats. Although not being a direct quotation, the reference to MDh 5.48 is clear enough, especially in consideration of VS 12d and MDh 5.48d (quoting Olivelle?s ed & tr in the following): n?k?tv? pr??in?? hi?s?? m??sam utpadyate kvacit | na ca pr??ivadha? svargyas tasm?n m??sa? vivarjayet || 48 || One can never obtain meat without causing injury to living beings, and killing living beings is an impediment to heaven; he should, therefore, abstain from meat. While this reference may be considered as providing sufficient philological evidence for historically assuming VS to be later than MDh, the fact that the notion of an ?k??ag?min corresponds to that of a khecara would at least not contradict the assumption that the author of the Vajras?c? may in fact have been associated with the social sphere of the siddh?c?ryas, being also the sphere of Vajray?na. Another twist of the story is provided by the respective arguments for abstaining from consuming pieces of flesh from the corpses of brutally slaughtered animals, given particularly in Mah?y?na, prior to the antinomian Vajray?na practice of ritually consuming flesh, the main Buddhist reason for not harming any living beings has been compassion (cf., e.g., the concise outline in Schmithausen?s ?The Case of Vegetarianism ? A Buddhist Perspective? [https://tinyurl.com/qqxhvrf]). ? Comparing the two verses quoted above, it is in MDh 5.48, where compassion is appealed to. The Vajras?c?, contrary to what we might expect, is not doing so. How to historically account for this evidence? Could it be that, while likewise casting a side-glance at his space-walking colleagues, siddh?c?rya A?vagho?a?s intention has been to also include them in his critique of animal corpse consumers? Best wishes, Hartmut Buescher . On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 3:41 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Vincent, Thank you for your further comments. I didn?t mean to suggest that the yukta pram??a described in the Caraka Sa?hit? was the same as the dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am of the Vajras?c?. Only that a pram??a explicitly based on yukta (however one parses that phrase) is something seen early on, and then it disappears. The yukta-pram??a of the Caraka is a fascinating thing whose loss probably was a loss for the entire Indian philosophical enterprise. Farmers and doctors shared a common concern, which is that to get from initial cause to actual fruition involves a process in time of multiple causes, with multiple stages, any of which can effect or nullify the outcome: planting a crop and being able to harvest; pregnancy making it to term; etc. Taking all relevant factors into account and calculating the probabilities of a successful final outcome was what yukta pram??a was designed to accomplish. In some ways, that is closer to the probabalistic reasoning that has displaced causal thinking in western philosophy (and some sciences) since the early 20th c than the more mechanistic cause and invariant effect reasoning more prevalent in Indian thought. Obviously, the Caraka?s yukta pram??a is not the same thing as drawing knowledge through discourse employing reasoning based on dharma and artha (or the meaning/purpose of dharma). The idea of prototypical ideas that emerge later under the rubric of M?m??s? is intriguing. The Yog?c?rabh?mi is an often ignored treasure trove of ideas circulating in India earlier than is often recognized (as is the Tattvasiddhi, though not adequately captured in Sastri?s translations, in which many of the stock arguments repeated in pram??av?da texts are already found). Squeamishness about sacrifices is quite early ? Jains and even S??khyans express those ideas, and one can see some reaction against that even in the Bhagavad G?t? (whether one dates that to 200 BCE or 200 CE). Dign?ga does deal with M?m??s? in PS, for which there is no (available) Chinese translation. (There is a hint that a one fascicle translation was made, but no evidence of it aside from a mention of its title in a catalogue of translations). The Chinese sources frequently cite a school by its founder?s name instead of the name of the school. Typically: Kapila ???, the founder of S??khya ??; Ul?ka ??? (a.k.a. Ka??da ???), the founder of Vai?e?ika ???, and ??abha ???, the founder of the Nirgranthas. As far as I can find, there is no Chinese version of Jaimini?s name. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:11 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent > wrote: Dear Dan, My impression is that the Buddhists became aware of M?m??s? as a distinct religio-philosophical school (and not just as a purely intra-Brahmanical type of ?theological/exegetical? inquiry) some time during the fourth century CE (or perhaps in the early fifth), even though the term may not occur, at least not regularly, before Dign?ga (480-540). It is also around the fourth century CE that certain Buddhists started arguing against ideas that are close to those known to us from later M?m??saka sources (e.g., on sacrificial violence, the caste-classes, etc.), even though several among these ideas find interesting prototypes in the M?navadharma??stra. This is especially the case in the so-called parav?da section of the Yog?c?rabh?mi. Hundreds of pages could be written on these topics. The stanza you quote is arguably the most important in the Vajras?c?, for it spells out the philosophical-polemical program of the entire work. A rough translation might be: ?The Vedas are authoritative (pram??a); the Sm?tis are authoritative; [any] speech/discourse endowed/connected (yukta) with dharma and artha is authoritative. A [person] for whom a [previously acknowledged] pram??a would cease (na bhavet) to be a pram??a [because it contradicts his/her position on the issue of the caste-classes], who [on earth] would take his/her speech/discourse to be a pram??a/authoritative?? One can certainly discuss the exact structure and meaning of the compound dharm?rthayukta, but seriously doubt that yukta here has anything to do with the pram??a the medical tradition refers to as yukti (see articles by Filliozat, Steinkellner, and others). Or did I miss the point? I entirely agree with you as regards S??khya and Vai?e?ika: from the 1st-2nd to the 5th century, these traditions/schools are the most frequent targets of the Buddhist controversialists. The Ny?ya (works by [the pseudo?]N?g?rjuna) and the M?m??s? play a comparatively minor role, as do the Jains (targeted as early as ?ryadeva?s Catu??ataka, and more frequently from the Yog?c?rabh?mi onwards). Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Dan Lusthaus > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 23:52:30 An: Eltschinger, Vincent Cc: Matthew Kapstein; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear all, Just to comment quickly, though I haven?t studied the Vajras?c? in any depth, the same passage that Vincent highlighted, naming the Vedas, Grammarians, et al. is also the one that caught my attention, especially the mention of M?m??sikas. As far as I can tell, while the others do get mentioned in Chinese translations of Buddhist texts, the only text preserved in Chinese that mentions M?m??sikas is Xuanzang?s translation of Bh?viveka?s Praj??prad?pa, which mentions them twice in close proximity: ????????13?22 ????????????????????????[1]????????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, b15-17) [1]??????? [1]??????? ?Again there are the non-Buddhist (t?rthika) M?m?msikas who say: ?What is said by Buddhists In the twelve divisions of the their s?tras (canon), is that no person is omniscient, because they are conditioned (sa?sk?ra), just as is stated in treatises by the Vai?e?ikas, and so on.? ????????13?22 ??????????????????????(CBETA, T30, no. 1566, p. 119, c5-6) ?This like the non-Buddhist M?m?msikas who imagine that the Word of the Vedas is eternal.? I have found no other mention of M?m??s? in any other Chinese sources (if anyone has information on discussions I might have missed, please let me know). Bh?viveka, of course, devoted an entire chapter in his Madhyamakah?daya to M?m??s?, but his description of their doctrines suggests they differed in several ways from the versions we are more familiar with post Pr?bh?kara and Kum?rila. It is the latter?s ?lokavarttika, of course, that made M?m??s? hard to ignore for subsequent Buddhists. Harivarman?s Tattvasiddhi (translated by Kum?raj?va at the beginning of the 5th c) identifies (among others) Vai?e?ika, S??khya, Ny?ya, and Jains as p?rvapak?ins. More generally in Buddhist literature preserved in Chinese prior to the middle of the seventh century, the most commonly cited opponents are Vai?e?ika and S??khya. Ny?ya is mentioned infrequently, as are Jains. As for the pram??a issue mentioned by Matthew, the Vajras?r? verse identifies what serve as authorities for non-Buddhists (the following verse turns to lineage): ved?? pram??a? sm?taya? pram??a? dharm?rthayukta? vacana? pram??am | yasya pram??a? na bhavetpram??a? kastasya kury?dvacana? pram??am || 2 || Which are more or less equivalent to ?ruti, sm?ti, and ?pti-pram??a, and analogous to ?scripture and reason? (?gama, yukti) that was the established criteria for validity for Buddhists, even into the pram??av?da era. And, as I wrote elsewhere: "Prama?n?a-theory rst appears in the eleventh chapter of the first part (Su?tra-stha?na) of the CS [Caraka-sa?hit?]. Here the CS intriguingly proposes, along with the three prama?n?as one would expect (perception, inference, and authori- tative testimony), a fourth not found anywhere else: synthetic inductive reasoning (yukta-prama?n?a). Discussion of prama?n?a occurs in two other parts of the CS: part 3, Vima?na-stha?na, chap. 4 and chap. 8, but the unique yukta-prama?n?a is absent from those discussions, a sign of the strati ed nature of the text.? So a yukta pram??a suggest to me a possibly early date for that category. Has anyone considered whether it is possible that the verses may have been written by A?vagho?a or someone relatively early while the prose exposition may have been added by a later hand? Dan On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Eltschinger, Vincent via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Matthew, I was referring to most of the elements of the list I quoted, of course, not to the entire Vajras?c?. But you are right, Matthew: the Mah?bh?rata plays an important role in the Vajras?c?, as does? Manu ? which may be the reason for Patrick?s query. It is well known that the Vajras?c? attributes several verses to Manu that cannot be traced in the extant M?navadharma??stra (if I remember well, this is the reason why some scholars tentatively attributed them to a lost M?nava Dharmas?tra). Whatever the case may be, we might perhaps agree that the Vajras?c? is unlikely to have been composed before the 3rd-4th century CE. I am inclined to believe that it is even younger. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: Matthew Kapstein > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 22:13:42 An: Eltschinger, Vincent; Olivelle, J P; indology at list.indology.info Betreff: Re: Vajras?c? Not wishing to differ with my learned colleague Vincent Eltschinger's remarks (which are surely based on a deeper engagement with this corpus than my own), I tend nevertheless to think it not quite plausible that "most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE." My sense is that the several epic and puranic parallels point to a somewhat later period. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Eltschinger, Vincent > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:00 AM To: Olivelle, J P >; Matthew Kapstein >; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: AW: Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, As you know, A?vagho?a directed some arguments against the Brahmanical understanding of the caste-classes in one of his dramas, the ??riputraprakara?a/?aradvat?putraprakara?a, several fragments of which have been preserved in Central Asian manuscripts and edited by Heinrich L?ders around 1910. It is thus plausible that A?vagho?a dedicated an individual treatise to this topic. The style, the method and the philosophical ressources of the Vajras?c?, however, are very different from the ones we know from A?vagho?a?s genuine works, and may presuppose Buddhist works such as the ??rd?lakar??vad?na if not Kum?ral?ta?s Kalpan?ma??itik? D????ntapa?kti?. Even if I am not aware of any convincing argument against the attribution of the Vajras?c? to A?vagho?a, I have always regarded the following statement as anachronistic: d??yante ca kvacic ch?dr? api vedavy?kara?am?m??s?s??khyavai?e?ikanagn?*j?vik?disarva??str?rthavida? /. ?And one observes in some cases that even ??dras know the meaning of all ??stras such as the Veda, Grammar, M?m??s?, S??khya, Vai?e?ika as well as [those of] the Jainas and the ?j?vikas.? (*-nagn?- em. : lagn?- Ed.) Although such a list is not per se impossible in A?vagho?a?s time, i.e., although most of its individual elements could have been known around 100 CE, I do not believe that such an enumeration would have been possible, as a doxographic statement, at that time, and even less so under A?vagho?a's "pen." (The absence of the Ny?ya from the list is intriguing.) Another element possibly deserving some consideration is the Sanskrit colophon in which A?vagho?a is characterized as siddh?c?rya (k?tir iya? siddh?c?ry??vagho?ap?d?n?m iti), an expression the exact meaning of which remains somewhat unclear to me. I am looking forward to reading other opinions on this interesting topic. Very best, Vincent Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW Directeur d'?tudes ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05 ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY > im Auftrag von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Januar 2020 15:09:59 An: Indology List; Olivelle, J P Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Dear Patrick, You'll find some discussion of it, inter alia, in Vincent Eltschinger, "Caste" et Philosophie Bouddhique WSTB 47 (2000). As you no doubt know, the Chinese translation is late - 10th c. if I recall correctly - and is attributed to DharmakIrti. I rather doubt that the true authorship can be established, given the available evidence. The emphasis on pramANa seems to suggest that it was written during the second half of the first millennium, not much before. But the way in which pramANa is used there does not resonate closely with the Buddhist pramANa school. The precise milieu in which it was composed remains a puzzle (at least to me!). all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 6:59 AM To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vajras?c? Does anyone know of newer work on the identity and date of the author of Vajras?c?, often ascribed to A?vagho?a? Any new ideas on its possible date? With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jan E.M. Houben Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) Sciences historiques et philologiques johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C8c82b6a21aee4eddb80808d7a3d123d0%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637157990960679333&sdata=6dy1flUcc%2FFjxd1t2WWJk1joblkM%2FKBABmtDCCqgLSU%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Tue Jan 28 10:47:22 2020 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 11:47:22 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vajras=C5=ABc=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200128114722.Horde.Ayem5UnhOyRIA1MM__go209@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear colleagues, > I am in fact very much inclined to see an ironic/sarcastic touch in it. > A variant-reading of the stanza can be found in > "Kalpadrumavadanamala, based on the text appended to P.L. Vaidya's > edition of the Avadanasataka Another example of possible irony towards Brahmins in Buddhist narrative literature may be found in the following pair of verses from ?rya??ra's J?takam?l? (?JM): hata? ca yaj?e tridiva? yadi vrajen nanu vrajeyu? pa?ut?? svaya? dvij?? yatas tu n?ya? vidhir ?k?yate kva cid vacas tad e??? ka iva grah??yati (?JM 10.13) atulyagandharddhirasaujasa? ?ubh?? sudh?? kilots?jya var?psarodh?t?m muda? pray?syanti vap?dik?ra??d vadhena ?ocyasya pa?or divaukasa? (?JM 10.13) "If one goes to heaven by being killed in sacrifice, surely brahmins themselves would become sacrificial animals. But since one never sees this practiced, who would accept the words of such men? Would the gods reject their pure nectar, served by fine nymphs, incomparable in scent, richness, flavor, and potency, and take joy in the slaughter of a pitiful animal to feed off its intestines and other parts?" (transl. Justin Meiland) (?rya??ra must have lived by the beginning of the 5th century CE at the latest, but possibly earlier.) With best regards, Roland Steiner From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de Tue Jan 28 12:29:16 2020 From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 20 12:29:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL Update #496 Message-ID: <938a9e945bd241379f34becabbf88622@sub.uni-goettingen.de> GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Texts added: Candrakirti: Bodhisattvayogacaracatuhsatakatika Prince of Kotilingapura: Hetvabhasadasaka Laksminkara: Advayasiddhi Sivasamkalpa-Upanisad Asvaghosa: Buddhacarita 1-23 (collation) Tshangs-dbyangs-rgya-mtsho: mgul glu Texts converted: Dharma-Smrtis __________________________________________________________________________ GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pf8 at soas.ac.uk Wed Jan 29 18:36:11 2020 From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 20 18:36:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Invitation SOAS Annual Jaina Lecture 2020 and Workshop on (Non) Violence 20-21 March Message-ID: Dear Friends, Please find below the Programme of this year's 20 Annual Jaina Lecture and of the 22nd SOAS Jaina Studies Workshop on *(Non) Violence.* Everyone is Welcome! Co-Sponsorship & Voluntary Donations are invited to keep our free public programmes going. Please RSVP to: centres at soas.ac.uk. *Help us ensure Prakrit continues to be a part of SOAS in 2020/21.* https://soas.hubbub.net/p/SOASprakrit2020/ with best wishes Peter The 20th Annual Jaina LectureFrom the Telling of Stories to the Teaching of Jain Doctrine: Religious Discourses in long Medieval Narratives Professor Christine Chojnacki (University of Lyon) *Date:* 20 March 2020*Time:* 6:00 PM *Finishes:* 20 March 2020*Time:* 9:00 PM *Venue:* Brunei Gallery *Room:* Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/20mar2020-the-20th-annual-jaina-lecture.html 22nd Jaina Studies Workshop: (Non) Violence*Date:* 21 March 2020*Time:* 9:00 AM *Finishes:* 21 March 2020*Time:* 6:00 PM *Venue:* Brunei Gallery *Room:* Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre *Type of Event:* Workshop *Online registration. * https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/21mar2020-22nd-jaina-studies-workshop-non-violence.html Programme *Time* *Description* 9:00am Tea and Coffee *First Session: Violence and Non-Violence* 9:15am *Peter Fl?gel* (SOAS) *The Non-Violence of Non-Violence* 9:45am *Brianne Donaldson* (University of California, Irvine, USA) *The Hunter, the Bow, and the Arrow: Intentional Harm in the Early Jain Canon* 10:15am *Sama?? Pratibh? Praj??* (Jain Vishva Bharati Institute/SOAS) *Ahi?s? Pra?ik?a?a: A Socio-Religious Initiative* 10:45am Tea and Coffee *Second Session: Imagined (Non-) Violence* 11:15am *Patrick Kr?ger* (University of Bochum, Germany) *The Visualizing of Torture and Pain: Depictions of Violence in Jaina Art* 11:45am *Himal Trikha* (University of Vienna, Austria) *84 Lakh Yonis: The Jaina Doctrine of 8.4 Million Embodiments* 12:15pm *Julie Alyssa Hanlon* (University of Chicago, USA) *(Non) Violence in Stone and Clay: A Consideration of Jain Lithic Inscriptions, Relief Images, and Ceramic Vessels* 12:45pm *Prakrit Jnanabharati International Award* 1:00pm Group Photo 1:15pm Lunch *Third Session: Statehood and (Non-) Violence* 2:15pm *Olle Qvarnstr?m* (The University of Lund, Sweden) *Jain Adaptation to Muslim Rule during the Delhi Sultanate* 2:45pm *Tillo Detige* (Gent, Belgium) *Rhetoric of Violence, Violent Rhetoric: The Sultanate and Mughal Era Flourishing of Digambara Jainism* 3:15pm *Jean Arzoumanov* (Sorbonne III, Paris, France) *Conflicting Descriptions of Jaina Monks in Indo-Persian Sources: Between Nonviolence, Magic and Snake Charming* 3:45pm Tea and Coffee *Fourth Session: Jaina Narratives of Violence and Non-Violence* 4:15pm *Steven Vose* (Florida International University) *What To Do About All This Killing? Locating Jain Tantra in Medieval Indian Political and Social Life* 4:45pm *Basile Lecl?re* (University of Lyon, France) *Teachings on Violence in Jain Prabandhas: The Tragic Death of King Ajayap?la* 5:15pm *Simon Winant* (University of Gent, Belgium) *Justifying Violence & Redistributing Blame: The Implications of Devaprabhas?ri?s Narrative Choices in the P???avacarita* 5:45pm *Richard Fynes* (SOAS) *Violence and Humour in Hemacandra* 6:15pm Final Remarks *Sponsored by:* [image: image.png] [image: image.png] Dr Peter Fl?gel Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies Professor of the Study of Religions and Philosophies Department of History, Religions and Philosophies School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Wed Jan 29 23:50:38 2020 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 20 18:50:38 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Some Ganesha gayatri mantras Message-ID: Dear list members, I've been asked to verify the authenticity of the following two Ganesha gayatri mantras. I.e. if they are not a modern creation. I haven't found them in either Muktabodha or GRETIL libraries. Would any of the list members know a scriptural source or have heard these in a temple ceremony? ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tanno buddhi? pracoday?t gaj?nan?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tanno dant? pracoday?t Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Jan 29 23:55:13 2020 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 20 15:55:13 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Some Ganesha gayatri mantras In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, The Ga?e?a-Atharva??r?a has the following G?yatr?: ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tanno dant? [ danti?] pracoday?t Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:51 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > I've been asked to verify the authenticity of the following two Ganesha > gayatri mantras. I.e. if they are not a modern creation. I haven't found > them in either Muktabodha or GRETIL libraries. Would any of the list > members know a scriptural source or have heard these in a temple ceremony? > > ekadant?ya vidmahe > > vakratu???ya dh?mahi > > tanno buddhi? pracoday?t > > > gaj?nan?ya vidmahe > > vakratu???ya dh?mahi > > tanno dant? pracoday?t > > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msa2b at virginia.edu Fri Jan 31 00:55:30 2020 From: msa2b at virginia.edu (Allen, Michael S (msa2b)) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 20 00:55:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New AAR Unit in Hindu Philosophy (CFP) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am delighted to announce the establishment of a new unit in Hindu Philosophy at the American Academy of Religion, complementing the existing unit in Buddhist Philosophy. Below is our call for papers for the 2020 Annual Meeting in Boston (November 21-24). We prefer individual paper proposals (as opposed to full session proposals). Proposals should be submitted online via the PAPERS system, which will be available beginning on Monday, February 3: . The deadline for submissions is 5pm EST on Monday, March 2. For more on the unit, see . Best wishes, Michael S. Allen, University of Virginia Parimal G. Patil, Harvard University Co-Chairs, Hindu Philosophy Unit ---------- Call for Papers ---------- The Hindu Philosophy Unit invites papers for its inaugural session, which will be devoted to the theme ?Ways of Knowing.? Papers might address debates within the classical pram?n?a framework (e.g., the possibility of yogic perception, the problem of reflexive awareness, the reliability of verbal testimony, etc.), or they might suggest new topics and approaches (e.g., aesthetics and epistemology, embodied knowledge, religious experience, etc.). We welcome interpretive papers focusing on specific thinkers, texts, or schools, as well as critical papers assessing specific arguments or debates. We also seek papers for a co-sponsored session (with Buddhist Philosophy and Philosophy of Religion) on ?Religious Atheism.? The session aims to challenge the notion that atheism entails a rejection of religion; it also challenges the notion of Hinduism as theistic. Papers might explore (a) Hindu or Buddhist critiques of proofs for God's existence; (b) Hindu or Buddhist arguments for the non-existence of God; or (c) the religious dimensions of Hindu or Buddhist atheism. We hope to have two papers focusing on Buddhist materials and two papers exploring Hindu materials (e.g., early M?m?m?s? or S?m?khya). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Fri Jan 31 03:46:06 2020 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 20 03:46:06 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_World_Sanskrit_Conference_2021_=E2=80=93__Registration_now_open?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues Registration is now open for the 18th World Sanskrit Conference, 18-22 January 2021 The WSC2021 Third Circular is now available here: https://www.wsc2021.com.au/activity/conference-circulars/ You will find all the details for registering, plus Sections and Special Panels, abstract submission, our innovative ?In Conversation' featuring Prof. Uma Charavarti and Patrick Olivelle, a program outline and entertainment, tours, and a conference dinner with a real difference! We promise you a unique conference experience, one that will be both scholarly but relaxed and enjoyable, and we are already looking forward to having you with us! Yours sincerely, McComas Taylor On behalf of the the WSC2021 Organising Committee PS. Apologies for cross-posting [cid:d4f00447-4657-428e-a6e6-0080ba729d76] McComas Taylor Associate Professor Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University WSC Website| McC Website Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Fri Jan 31 11:24:02 2020 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 20 11:24:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Authorship of Nyay Darshan Message-ID: <20200131112402.16693.qmail@f4mail-235-131.rediffmail.com> Respected scholars,It has long been studied that Akhshapada Gotoma was the one who authored "NyayDarshan".However , of late, I came across one more source, namely a translation of "Nyay Darshan" by Phanibhushan TarkaBagish, which states that Nyay Darshan even existed before Gotama.May someone elaborate on this?Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjr50 at cam.ac.uk Fri Jan 31 13:14:56 2020 From: kjr50 at cam.ac.uk (K.J. Ram-Prasad) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 20 13:14:56 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_CfP_deadline_10th_March_=E2=80=A2_Proto-Indo-European_Reconstruction_=E2=80=A2_1-2nd_Oct_2020_=E2=80=A2_Cambridge?= Message-ID: <03bf2db70493d10abf074804690c06e1@cam.ac.uk> Dear all, We are now inviting abstract submissions for our conference Proto-Indo-European Reconstruction: Problems, possibilities & new perspectives, which will take place in Cambridge on 1-2nd Oct 2020. Please see our website www.pier-cam-2020.org [1] for further details. We invite papers and posters on any aspect of PIE linguistic reconstruction, including--but not limited to--phonological, morphological and syntactic elements. Presentations can span from more data-focused analyses to broader, theoretical questions that push the boundaries of the methodologies we have employed so far. This broad spectrum of topics will allow different areas of research to be included, while maintaining a focus on the central importance of linguistic reconstruction in IE studies. Papers will be 20 minutes followed by 10 minutes of discussion (30 mins total). Posters should be of standard (A0) size. Please include in your abstract whether you expect your poster to be portrait or landscape. This will not affect our decision on its acceptance and you may let the organisers know if you wish to change the orientation a later stage. If you wish to present something at this conference, please submit an abstract of up to 500 words, (not including bibliography) in PDF to pier.cam2020 at gmail.com. Please specify whether you wish to be considered for either a paper or a poster or both. The deadline for abstract submission is March 10th 2020. Your abstract should also include your name, email and institutional affiliation (if any). We will aim to notify you of our decision within a month of the deadline. We look forward to hearing from you! Krishnan Ram-Prasad & Edoardo Chiattelli (organisers) Faculty of Classics University of Cambridge Links: ------ [1] http://www.pier-cam-2020.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PIERposter.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 120381 bytes Desc: not available URL: