[INDOLOGY] (still) no distraction from the coronavirus...

Mon Apr 6 18:23:22 UTC 2020

Dear Matthew, Dear Jean-Luc,
thanks for the helpful replies.
As for the problem of: German "ü"  (apparently also used to transcribe the
similar Tibetan phoneme) or French "u" or Dutch "uu" into Devanagari and
Indic scripts:
That French "Luc" had become "லூய்க்" [lūyk] is quite justified in the
light of the sthāna "place of articulation" of this phoneme unknown to
traditional Sanskrit phoneticians, in between "i" and "u".
When I teach "ü" to those unfamiliar with it, I instruct to start saying
"ii", move the mouth slowly towards saying "uu", and "ü" will appear
somewhere in between.
In this light the spelling in some modern Indian languages of Paris (as
pronounced in English!) is also understandable: the first vowel is heard as
a palatalized "a".
However, in "லூய்க்" [lūyk] the sequence is inverted, going from "uu" to an
"ii" sound (whereas one would like to have the two simultaneously).

As to be expected, students in Heidelberg have no difficulty in pronouncing
'Brüder' as 'Brüder' and 'Flügel' as 'Flügel':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qjiVm6Lzdc (within first 1min30sec)
Even in Maastricht these two words and the 'ü' phoneme in them are
pronounced correctly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9dLGDCdg3g (within first 1min30sec)
However, the "distinguished British baritone, Robert Bennington,"
pronounced the two words (that too, long before the Brexit) either out of
inability or to enhance the comic effect, respectively as Bruder and
Flugel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWGZdYNpaSo (within first 1min35sec)

Best,
Jan

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 11:44, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

> On 29/03/2020 10:20, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:
> > Dear Jean-Luc,
> > This is as fascinating as it is puzzling.
>
> Dear Jan,
>
> here is an example of avai-y-aṭakkam, taken from the Vīracōḻiyam, with
> the (unpublished) expanded English rendering by the late scholar T.S.
> Gangadharan
>
> _āyuṅ kuṇattava lōkitaṉ pakka lakattiyaṉkēṭ
> ṭēyum puvaṉik kiyampiya taṇṭami ḻīṅkuraikka
> nīyu muḷaiyō veṉiṟkaru ṭaṉceṉṟa nīḷvicumpil
> _īyum paṟakku mitaṟkeṉ kolōcollu mēntiḻaiyē.
>
>
> The Apology (Avai-y-aṭakkam)
>
> If I am questioned: "Can you speak on that Tamil grammar, the work
> wrought for the benefit of them that live in the world where abides his
> immortal fame, the work which is so cooling to the mind, the work of
> Akattiyaṉ who is endowed with clarified intellect, the work of the chēla
> (pupil) of Avalōkaṉ whose cultural attainment is hailed by many
> discerning scholars", I will answer thus: "The fly too wings the
> spacious sky expanse where flies the Brahminy kite! In this is the
> fitness of things? What does the world say? (Does the world approve of
> this?) If this can pass muster, so can my work also."
> [reproduced VERBATIM, without trying to do further investigations]
>
> Concerning Zvelebil's Tolkāppiyam translation, it appeared in small
> sections in the JTS but he does not seem to have finished it.
>
> Here is what is available (extracted from the bibliography in my Ph.D.
> thesis):
>
> Zvelebil Kamil, 1972-1975, «Tolkāppiyam Eḻuttatikāram», Journal of Tamil
> Studies, n° 1, p. 43-60 [chap. 1 à 3]; n° 2, p. 13-29 [chap. 4 à 6]; n°
> 3, p. 17-27 [chap. 7]; n° 4, p. 13-23 [chap. 8]; n° 5, p. 34-36 [chap. 9
> (14 sutras)]; n° 7, p. 62-66 [chap. 9 (42 sutras)]; n° 8, p. 8-11 [chap.
> 9 (21 sutras)], Madras, International Institute of Tamil Studies
> [traduction en anglais du premier livre du tolk.].
>
> Zvelebil Kamil, 1978-1985, «Tolkāppiyam Collatikāram», Journal of Tamil
> Studies, n° 13, p. 79-86 [chap. 1 (30 sutras)]; n° 20, p. 5-14 [chap. 1
> (31 sutras)]; n° 21, p. 9-19 [chap. 2]; n° 28, p. 67-80 [chap. 3],
> Madras, International Institute of Tamil Studies [traduction en anglais
> du second livre du Tolk. qui couvre pour l'instant les trois premiers
> chapitres]
>
> Best wishes to you too
>
> அன்புடன்
>
> -- Jean-Luc (spontaneously rendered in Tamil script as ழான் லூய்க்
> செவ்வியர் inside a "dédicace" written on the title page of a book
> (யாப்பருங்கலம், பழைய விருத்தியுரையுடன்) gifted to me on 25-6-2000 by my
> long-time Pondichéry friend ச.மதனகல்யாணி, whom I have known since july
> 1981; as you can see, French "Luc" becomes "லூய்க்" [lūyk]
>
> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
>
> https://tst.hypotheses.org/author/jlch
>
> https://www.google.de/maps/@53.49484,10.57238,19z
>
>
>
> > Have the translations of (parts of) the Tolkāppiyam by K. Zvelebil ever
> > been published?
> > See his announcement of a translation in his /The Smile// Of Murugan/,
> > Leiden, 1973, p. 131.
> > Stay healthy and well in Müssen,
> > Jan
> >
> > P.S.
> > for the children in Müssen, during the corona-crisis:
> >
> > म्युस्सनित्यत्र किं कुर्यात्   हसनं न तु चुम्बनम् ।
> >
> > This one I will translate, freely, into German:
> > "Was kann man machen in Müssen?
> > Nur lachen, nicht küssen."
> >
> > P.P.S.
> > Did anyone ever try to transcribe into Sanskrit -- into Devanagari --
> > the German "ü" or French "u" or Dutch "uu"?
> > Max Müller sanskritized his name simply as मोक्ष मूलर according to my
> > teacher Prof. Henk Bodewitz in order to suggest to his Indian readers
> > that he can bring them liberation, but in that way M.M. skipped the
> > problem of the transcription of this phoneme that is absent in Sanskrit
> > and in Hindi and in most other Indian languages I know of (but a similar
> > sound is there in Tibetan, if I'm not mistaken).
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 28 Mar 2020 at 09:51, Jean-Luc Chevillard via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> wrote:
> >
> >     அவையடக்கியலே அரில் தபத் தெரியின்
> >     வல்லா கூறினும் வகுத்தனர் கொண்மின் என்று
> >     எல்லா மாந்தர்க்கும் வழி மொழிந்தன்றே.
> >
> >     "/Avai-y-aṭakku/ is, if well examined, one's modest expression to
> >     all to
> >     discriminate what is good in his unworthy sayings and take it"
> >
> >        (1936 translation of Tolkāppiyam Poruḷatikāram 419 by P.S.
> >     Subrahmanya
> >     Sastri, as read on p.180 in the 2002 reprint by the Kuppuswami Sastri
> >     Research Institute, Chennai)
> >
> >     -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (confined in Müssen, Schleswig-Holstein)
> >
> >     https://twitter.com/JLC1956
> >
> >     https://tst.hypotheses.org/author/jlch
> >
> >     https://www.google.de/maps/@53.49484,10.57238,19z
> >
> >
> >
> >     On 27/03/2020 19:28, rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY wrote:
> >      > "Practising Sanskrit as the Epitome of laughableness"
> >      >
> >      > Cheers
> >      >
> >      > Rainer
> >      >
> >      > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Jan E.M. Houben*
> >
> > Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
> >
> > /Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite/
> >
> > École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
> >
> > /*Sciences historiques et philologiques */
> >
> > /johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>/
> >
> > /https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben/
> >
>
>

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

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