[INDOLOGY] origin and discussion that the Vedas are "nitya apaurusheya"

Wed Nov 6 20:30:22 UTC 2019

Dear Patrick and Madhav,
The discussion can indeed be extended from the six "orthodox" philosophical
systems, to, on the one hand, the dharmaśāstras (where Mīmāṃsā principles
of interpretation find a natural, extended domain of application -- perhaps
hence also the Mīmāṃsā view on the nityatva of the Veda?), and, on the
other hand, to the R̥gveda.
Views that the Vedas -- the Vedic hymns -- are of primordial origin or are
given beforehand, and, in the  Puruṣa-sūkta, literally of pauruṣeya origin,
as rks, sāmans, yajus-formulas deriving from the primordial Puruṣa, can
definitely be found in the R̥gveda.
So also views that the Vedas -- Vedic hymns -- are and should be (newly)
created with much effort by the inspired poets, just as a carpenter creates
a chariot etc.
Writing on the Vedic poet's comparison of his work with that of a
"carpenter or cartwright", Jan Gonda *Vision of the Vedic Poets* 1963: p.
184 quotes Louis Renou's translation of
RV 7.64.4 yó vām gártam mánasā táksad etám / ūrdhváam dhītím kṛṇávad
dhāráyac ca ...
"celui qui charpentera votre trône en pensée, qui mettra haut-et-droit ce
poème-ci et le maintiendra ..." (Renou EVP V (1958), p. 88).
Best, Jan Houben

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 20:01, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> While the explicit formulation of the notion of the Veda as Apauruṣeya is
> found in Mīmāṃsā, Vedānta and Dharmaśāstra, it is important to note that a
> view that the Vedas are of impersonal and primordial origin is as old as
> the Puruṣasūkta of the R̥gveda, and this view proliferates in the Brāhmaṇas
> and the Upaniṣads in various forms, such as the origin of the Vedas from
> the primordial sacrifice or being the breath of Prajāpati etc.  The passage
> "वाचा विरूपनित्यया"(तै.सं.२-६-१२) is often cited in traditional works to
> argue for the *nityatva *of the Veda being authorized by the Veda
> itself.  The statement *anantā vai vedāḥ *dates to the Brāhmaṇa period.
> So there is a long prehistory to the formulation of the Apauruṣeyatva
> theory dating back to the Vedic period.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 5:53 AM Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Just to add to Jan’s excellent synopsis, Jan’s statement about "only
>> Pūrva-mīmāṁsā and Vedānta” were committed to the apauruṣeya view can be
>> supplemented by bringing in Dharmaśāstra, which was also generally
>> committed to this view. And the broader acceptance of it during the
>> medieval period may have been due to the extraordinary influence of this
>> literary and scientific tradition on the general “Hindu” views.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dean,
>> Some quick notes in reaction to your query:
>> It is a widely accepted cliché that "the Vedas are eternal and
>> apauruṣeya" and another cliché, equally widely accepted by both traditional
>> and modern, Indian and non-Indian, scholars is that this is essentially (!)
>> THE Indian view on the Vedas. At some point in time, indeed, the
>> "irrational" view of the nitya and apauruṣeya Veda became dominant, and the
>> theory of elevated but basically "human" authors disappeared from view in
>> "orthodox" circles (just as the view of an originally basically "human"
>> Jesus Christ advocated by Arius made in the course of time place for more
>> "irrational" positions such as Trinitarianism which implies the
>> anādinidhanam divinity of Jesus in Christianity?). This means there was an
>> earlier time that the view of a nitya and apauruṣeya Veda was not dominant
>> or evident. Even if we limit ourselves to the six so-called "orthodox"
>> schools of Indian philosophy we find that widely divergent views were held
>> about the nature and (extent of) authoritativeness of the Vedas -- and on
>> the question whether the Vedic texts had or did not have authors: Sāṁkhya
>> is severely critical of the Vedas and Vedic ritual (Houben 1999); Nyāya
>> makes efforts to prove that the Veda is not apauruṣeya but pauruṣeya:
>> deriving from a Puruṣa, namely God (Chemparathy 1983); the school of
>> Aitihāsika interpretation of the Rgveda did not survive but interpreted the
>> subject matter of hymns often in terms of references to human or
>> divine,“historical” personalities (E. Sieg 1902). Not much of their views
>> is preserved, but it is likely that the authors of the hymns were also
>> regarded as “historical” personalities; in Vaiśeṣika, although theism
>> overtook later on, there is no early systematic commitment even to God but
>> to the Ṛṣis and their knowledge (even Praśastapāda accepts, apart from
>> pratyakṣa, laiṅgika and smṛti, only ārṣa as another category of reliable
>> knowledge, vidyā, in contradistinction to four forms of avidyā) From
>> Vaiśeṣika-sūtra (VS)6.1.1 buddhipūrvā vākyakṛtir vede we can infer the
>> position that the composition of Vedic texts is preceded by thinking, and
>> hence a creation by individuals, esp. the seers, although Candrānanda’s
>> commentary forcefully tries to interpret the plural as honorific and the
>> reference to the author of the Veda as a reference to Maheśvara (Houben
>> 2019, pp. 198-199); in the system of Yoga (Yoga-sūtra etc.) the Veda and
>> God have marginal roles, as for the latter i.a. in an optional way to the
>> ultimate Yogic goal (A. Nugteren, God as an alternative, Leuven, Apeldoorn:
>> Garant, 1991). Hence, we are left with only Pūrva-mīmāṁsā and Vedānta as
>> fully and originally committed to the Vedas as sources of ultimate
>> knowledge, an irrational position which Mīmāṁsakas such as Kumārila
>> brilliantly tried to defend rationally by arguing for a nitya and
>> apauruṣeya Veda. Somewhere in Alexis Pinchard’s Les langues de sagesse dans
>> la Grèce et l’Inde anciennes (2009, based on a thesis defended in 2005) the
>> author describes how there is an 'inflation' in the sacred status of Vedic
>> and Sanskrit, an ‘inflation’ that can be easily traced back to its earlier
>> stages. At first, the “secret names or footsteps of the cows” are preserved
>> in ‘human’ hymns addressed to the gods. Subsequently, the entire ‘human’
>> hymns, skillfully composed by trained poets, acquire the status of divine
>> texts which through their metre etc. are demarcated from all other language
>> use, including the comments and explanations of difficulties associated
>> with these divine texts. The next stage is the acquisition of divine status
>> of both the hymns and their explanations, the stage reflected in the dictum
>> mantra-brāhmaṇayor veda-nāmadheyam “Mantras and Brāhmaṇas have the
>> designation ‘Veda’ ” (Āpastamba Śrauta-sūtra 24.1.31). The auxiliary
>> disciplines such as grammar, etc., which develop in order to bridge the
>> increasing distance between the language of the Veda and even the polished
>> language of daily life, are the next candidates to receive divine status;
>> the last observed stage is the attribution of divine status not only to
>> Vedic literature and its auxiliary disciplines but to the entire Sanskrit
>> language, a view which we find already clearly formulated by the 5th
>> century grammarian-philosopher Bhartṛhari, but which remained in his time
>> far from uncontested (Houben 1996b). This does not detract from the de
>> facto role of classical Sanskrit as a language to the co-production of
>> which Buddhists contributed importantly, a philosophical and literary
>> lingua franca (Houben 2018 “Linguistic Paradox and Diglossia”).
>> Best,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 18:37, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, I mistitled that earlier thread.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know the origin of the term and concept that the Vedas are
>>> "nitya apaurusheya", eternal and uncreated by humans?
>>>
>>> I have heard it might have originated in Karma Mimamsa.
>>>
>>> Also, any information about how it was conceived, discussed and debated
>>> would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Dean
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
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-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

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