From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk Fri Mar 1 09:32:01 2019 From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 09:32:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5C78FC11.15106.A75DBC@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Here's a couple that may be relevant: Valerie Roebuck, "Weapons as symbols in Indian art" in Symbols in Art and Religion, ed. Karel Werner. London: Curzon Press 1990. Sarva Daman Singh: Ancient Indian Warfare with special reference to the Vedic Period. Leiden: Brill 1965. (about real weapons, textually and archaeologically) Hoping that helps, Dermot On 28 Feb 2019 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, Would anyhow have or be able to point to articles or lists of names and descriptions of weapons in sanskrit. In particular names and descriptions of weapons described as being held in the hands of gods and goddesses .in the different stotras and descriptions of those deities. Thanks, Harry Spier -- Dermot Killingley 9, Rectory Drive, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT Phone (0191) 285 8053 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri Mar 1 09:49:42 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 09:49:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <5C78FC11.15106.A75DBC@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Message-ID: Dear Harry, A useful source for this is Marie-Th?r?se de Mallmann, Introduction ? l'iconographie du Tantrisme bouddhique (Paris 1986), esp. ch. II, "Inventaire des caract?ristiques des divinit?s," which includes thorough lists of attributes. Of course, this may not be comprehensive for non-Buddhist deities, but the overlap is nonetheless significant. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Dermot Killingley via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 3:32:01 AM To: Harry Spier via INDOLOGY; Harry Spier Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit Here's a couple that may be relevant: Valerie Roebuck, "Weapons as symbols in Indian art" in Symbols in Art and Religion, ed. Karel Werner. London: Curzon Press 1990. Sarva Daman Singh: Ancient Indian Warfare with special reference to the Vedic Period. Leiden: Brill 1965. (about real weapons, textually and archaeologically) Hoping that helps, Dermot On 28 Feb 2019 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, Would anyhow have or be able to point to articles or lists of names and descriptions of weapons in sanskrit. In particular names and descriptions of weapons described as being held in the hands of gods and goddesses .in the different stotras and descriptions of those deities. Thanks, Harry Spier -- Dermot Killingley 9, Rectory Drive, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT Phone (0191) 285 8053 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Fri Mar 1 10:42:08 2019 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 11:42:08 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here are some references in addition: Wilbraham Egerton: *An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms*. London 1880. id.: *A Description of Indian and Oriental Armour*. New edition [of Egerton 1880]. London 1896. Robert Elgood: *Arms and Armour from India 1400-1865*. Delft 2004. Hans Losch: ?Ein Abri? der Waffenkunde?. In: Otto Spie? (Hrsg.):* Studia Indologica*. Festschrift f?r Willibald Kirfel zur Vollendung seines 70. Lebensjahres. Bonn 1955 (Bonner Orientalistische Studien. N.S. 3.), pp. 197-218. Mehr-Ali Newid: *Waffen und R?stungen im Alten Indien*. Dargestellt aufgrund der Quellen in Literatur, Kunst und Arch?ologie [sic]. Phil. Diss. M?nchen. Bamberg 1986. Sarva Daman Singh: *Ancient Indian Warfare. With Special Reference to the Vedic Period*. Leiden 1965. Regards, WS Am Fr., 1. M?rz 2019 um 10:49 Uhr schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear Harry, > > > A useful source for this is > > Marie-Th?r?se de Mallmann, Introduction ? l'iconographie du Tantrisme > bouddhique (Paris 1986), > > esp. ch. II, "Inventaire des caract?ristiques des divinit?s," which > includes thorough lists of attributes. > > > Of course, this may not be comprehensive for non-Buddhist deities, but the > overlap is nonetheless significant. > > > best, > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Dermot Killingley via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Friday, March 1, 2019 3:32:01 AM > *To:* Harry Spier via INDOLOGY; Harry Spier > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in > sanskrit > > Here's a couple that may be relevant: > > Valerie Roebuck, "Weapons as symbols in Indian art" in *Symbols in Art > and Religion,* ed. Karel Werner. London: Curzon Press 1990. > > Sarva Daman Singh: *Ancient Indian Warfare with special reference to the > Vedic Period.* Leiden: Brill 1965. (about real weapons, textually and > archaeologically) > > Hoping that helps, > > Dermot > > On 28 Feb 2019 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear list members, > > Would anyhow have or be able to point to articles or lists of names and > descriptions of weapons in sanskrit. In particular names and descriptions > of weapons described as being held in the hands of gods and goddesses .in > the different stotras and descriptions of those deities. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > ----------------------------- Univ.-Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 10:53:05 2019 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 12:53:05 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts Message-ID: Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have a new answer to this question in my paper The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in dating texts published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A pdf is downloadable at https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 Here is the abstract: The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible all mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature of the Sam?hita?s, Bra?hman?as, A?ran?yakas and S?rautasu?tras (excepting the late Ka?tya?yana-S?rautasu?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at all. This suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early Upanis?ads and comprising also the Gr?hyasu?tras and Ka?tya?yana-S?rautasu?tra, would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other words, the ?mirror? words seem to offer a criterion that for the first time enables a division of the Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases of development. Equally important is the firm historical basis that the mirror provides for dating the transition point. With best regards and wishes, Asko Asko Parpola, Ph.D. Professor emeritus of Indology University of Helsinki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org Fri Mar 1 10:58:51 2019 From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 16:28:51 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_publication_jointly_published_by_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry_and_the_Ecole_Fran=C3=A7aise_d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient?= In-Reply-To: <5e780f0b-5e1e-6ee2-45d0-2edc5da4734a@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: *JUST RELEASED* *Temple Design in Six Early ?aiva Scriptures. Critical edition and translation of the/pr?s?dalak?a?a-/portions of the/B?hatk?lottara, Devy?mata, Kira?a, Mohac?rottara, /**/Mayasa?graha/**/&/***/*Pi?gal?mata.* /[By] Libbie Mills, Collection Indologie n? 138, Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry / Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient, 2019, 665 p. Language: Sanskrit, English. *1500 Rs (65 ?). *ISBN: 978-81-8470-228-6 (IFP) / 978-2-85539-233-2 (EFEO) *For more details, see: *https://www.ifpindia.org/node/13763 Thank you, With best wishes, Library, IFP -- Ms. Anurupa Naik Head, Library and Publication Division French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE P.B. 33 11, St. Louis Street Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA Tel: 91-413-2231660 Fax: 91-413-2231605 e-mail:anurupa.n at ifpindia.org website:www.ifpindia.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 1 14:31:19 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 06:31:19 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???????? ???????? ?????? ????? ??? ? ????????????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ??????? In the beginning of the rains, the dancing of peacocks in the forest is a delight. The dancing of Krishna inside one's heart is always a delight. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.darumadera at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 17:09:39 2019 From: john.darumadera at gmail.com (John Huntington) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 12:09:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit In-Reply-To: <5C78FC11.15106.A75DBC@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk> Message-ID: Gosta Liebert. Iconographic Dictionary of the Indian religions,Brill, Leiden 1976 Satisfactory reprint Sri Sat Guru publications Delhi, 1986 Unfortunately it is completely unillustrated but has many terms for the weapons or attributes (?yudha) John On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 4:32 AM Dermot Killingley via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Here's a couple that may be relevant: > > Valerie Roebuck, "Weapons as symbols in Indian art" in *Symbols in Art > and Religion,* ed. Karel Werner. London: Curzon Press 1990. > > Sarva Daman Singh: *Ancient Indian Warfare with special reference to the > Vedic Period.* Leiden: Brill 1965. (about real weapons, textually and > archaeologically) > > Hoping that helps, > > Dermot > > On 28 Feb 2019 at 16:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear list members, > > Would anyhow have or be able to point to articles or lists of names and > descriptions of weapons in sanskrit. In particular names and descriptions > of weapons described as being held in the hands of gods and goddesses .in > the different stotras and descriptions of those deities. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > -- > Dermot Killingley > 9, Rectory Drive, > Gosforth, > Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT > Phone (0191) 285 8053 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Fri Mar 1 19:12:54 2019 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 11:12:54 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chlodwig Werba Message-ID: <87ef7qcssp.fsf@lmu.de> Forwarded on behalf of Agnes Korn: ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear all, The memorial mass for Chlodwig Werba will be on *Tuesday 19 March at 3pm (15h00)* in the Votivkirche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votivkirche,_Vienna in Vienna. This will be a catholic service, but of course everyone is very welcome! (The church is huge, so it would be great to be as many as possible.) We are told: "Es gibt die M?glichkeit, selbst etwas zu sagen, wenn man das m?chte. Dies m?sste man aber vorher unbedingt mit dem Pfarrer absprechen, damit er das in seinen Gottesdienst einbauen kann. Die Kontaktdaten des Pfarrers liegen bei Frau Scheuba (alexandra.scheuba at univie.ac.at) auf." Best wishes, Agnes ---------------------- Agnes Korn agnes.korn at cnrs.fr CNRS FRE Mondes iranien et indien 27 rue Paul Bert F - 94204 Ivry t?l. : +33 (0)1 49 60 49 30 fax : +33 (0)1 45 21 94 19 http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/membres/membres-permanents/korn-agnes.html ------------------------------------------------------------ -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From lauren.bausch at drbu.edu Fri Mar 1 19:16:28 2019 From: lauren.bausch at drbu.edu (Lauren Bausch) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 11:16:28 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new book Message-ID: Dear friends, I am pleased to announce the publication of *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy*, ed. Lauren M. Bausch (Delhi: Primus Books, 2019). 'Contributions range widely across critical topics in early, middle, and late Vedic texts and their commentaries, as well as classical themes in contemporary Sanskrit literature. Essays elucidate the explanations and arguments found in Br?hma?a texts, the historical and ecological development of Vedic ritual, concepts and underlying messages in Vedic texts, anachronisms in commentarial exegesis, and literary devices in narrative. From a variety of philological, philosophical, ritual, gender, and literary approaches, these articles shed new light on our understanding of these seminal texts of Indian religion and philosophy. This book is dedicated to the life and work of Professor G.U. Thite.' In addition to a biography of Prof. Thite, the volume features eleven articles by eminent scholars: 1. Timothy Lubin, 'Br?hma?a as Commentary' 2. Joanna Jurewicz, 'The Consistency of Vedic Argument' 3. Ganesh Umakant Thite, 'The Role of Br?hma?a-texts in the Development of Vedic Ritual' 4. Stephanie W. Jamison, 'Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred' 5. Joel P. Brereton, 'The Heavenly Sea' 6. Lauren M. Bausch, '*Prati??h?* in the Br?hma?as and ?ra?yakas' 7. Jarrod Whitaker, 'Women, Weapons, and Words: Gender and Sexuality in the *?gveda**?s "*Weapons Hymn" (6.75)' 8. Caley Charles Smith, 'How is a Vehicular Homicide like the Sacrifice?' 9. Robert P. Goldman, 'Creating Context: ?di?a?kar?c?rya?s Reading of Three *?khy?yik?s* of the *Ch?ndogya Upani?ad'* 10. Jan E.M. Houben, 'Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual Evidence' 11. Laurie L. Patton, 'Sanskrit as Personality Development: Emotion and Dialogue in the 20th Twentieth Century Writings of Kshama Rao' It was an honor to edit this fabulous collection of papers, which I hope you enjoy reading as much as I have. With best wishes, Lauren Lauren Bausch Assistant Professor Dharma Realm Buddhist University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 03:07:13 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 19 22:07:13 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you those who answered me on-list: Walter Slaje, John Huntington, Dermot Killingley and Matthew Kapstein. And thank you to those who answered me off-list. George Hart,who pointed me to Parip??al, translated by Gros , the Divyaprabandham and the Siva Tirumu?ai Loriliei Bierniacki, who pointed me to Gudruun Buhnemann?s work on deities, Saran Suebsantiwongse who pointed me to list of weapons in the glossary of Vasista?s Dhanurvedasamhit? translated by Purnima Roy. Harry Spier On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:06 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > Would anyhow have or be able to point to articles or lists of names and > descriptions of weapons in sanskrit. In particular names and descriptions > of weapons described as being held in the hands of gods and goddesses > .in the different stotras and descriptions of those deities. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Sat Mar 2 13:14:45 2019 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 19 14:14:45 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Asko, Thank you for the important paper. regards, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pt., 1 mar 2019 o 11:53 Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > > Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have > a new answer to this question in my paper > > The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in > dating texts > > published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A > pdf is downloadable at > > https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 > > Here is the abstract: > > The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible all > mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 > bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit > and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic > rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. > The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that > emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature > of the Sa?hit?s, Br?hma?as, ?ra?yakas and ?rautas?tras (excepting the late > K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at all. This > suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was > introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth > century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early > Upani?ads and comprising also the G?hyas?tras and K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra, > would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other words, the ?mirror? words seem > to offer a criterion that for the first time enables a division of the > Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases of development. Equally > important is the firm historical basis that the mirror provides for dating > the transition point. > > With best regards and wishes, Asko > > > Asko Parpola, Ph.D. > Professor emeritus of Indology > University of Helsinki > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Mar 2 14:10:32 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 19 14:10:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Asko, Yes, it's a great paper, an important addition to the evidence that some of the UpaniSads are later than we had been taught. On lexical grounds, I had earlier concluded that some parts of the Ch.U. are post-Buddhist, particularly the eighth book, which most interestingly, in the light of your conclusions, also concerns mirrors. It now seems clear (as a mirror!) that a revision of dating is warranted. thank you and best regards, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2019 7:14:45 AM To: Asko Parpola Cc: Indology List; +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts Dear Asko, Thank you for the important paper. regards, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pt., 1 mar 2019 o 11:53 Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY > napisa?(a): Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have a new answer to this question in my paper The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in dating texts published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A pdf is downloadable at https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 Here is the abstract: The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible all mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature of the Sa?hit?s, Br?hma?as, ?ra?yakas and ?rautas?tras (excepting the late K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at all. This suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early Upani?ads and comprising also the G?hyas?tras and K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra, would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other words, the ?mirror? words seem to offer a criterion that for the first time enables a division of the Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases of development. Equally important is the firm historical basis that the mirror provides for dating the transition point. With best regards and wishes, Asko Asko Parpola, Ph.D. Professor emeritus of Indology University of Helsinki _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Mar 2 14:55:09 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 19 06:55:09 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????????? ???????????? ??:????????? ?????????? ? ?????????????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? [The first 3 feet of this verse are from Bharata's N??ya??stra.] O Krishna, obeisance to you provides relief to exhausted people in this world who are suffering from grief, exertion and sorrow. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Sat Mar 2 18:35:08 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 19 18:35:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new book Message-ID: <1551551559.S.30250.autosave.drafts.1551551708.19857@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Bausch,I eagerly look forward to getting access to the book.Thank you very much for the information.Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: Lauren Bausch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> Sent: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 00:47:26 GMT+0530 To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> Subject: [INDOLOGY] new book Dear friends, I am pleased to announce the publication of Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy, ed. Lauren M. Bausch (Delhi: Primus Books, 2019). 'Contributions range widely across critical topics in early, middle, and late Vedic texts and their commentaries, as well as classical themes in contemporary Sanskrit literature. Essays elucidate the explanations and arguments found in Br?hma?a texts, the historical and ecological development of Vedic ritual, concepts and underlying messages in Vedic texts, anachronisms in commentarial exegesis, and literary devices in narrative. From a variety of philological, philosophical, ritual, gender, and literary approaches, these articles shed new light on our understanding of these seminal texts of Indian religion and philosophy. This book is dedicated to the life and work of Professor G.U. Thite.' In addition to a biography of Prof. Thite, the volume features eleven articles by eminent scholars: 1.    Timothy Lubin, 'Br?hma?a as Commentary'2.    Joanna Jurewicz, 'The Consistency of Vedic Argument'3.    Ganesh Umakant Thite, 'The Role of Br?hma?a-texts in the Development of Vedic Ritual'4.    Stephanie W. Jamison, 'Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred'5.    Joel P. Brereton, 'The Heavenly Sea'6.    Lauren M. Bausch, 'Prati??h? in the Br?hma?as and ?ra?yakas'7.    Jarrod Whitaker, 'Women, Weapons, and Words: Gender and Sexuality in the ?gveda?s "Weapons Hymn" (6.75)'8.    Caley Charles Smith, 'How is a Vehicular Homicide like the Sacrifice?'9.    Robert P. Goldman, 'Creating Context: ?di?a?kar?c?rya?s Reading of Three ?khy?yik?s of the Ch?ndogya Upani?ad'10.  Jan E.M. Houben, 'Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual Evidence'11.   Laurie L. Patton, 'Sanskrit as Personality Development: Emotion and Dialogue in the 20th Twentieth Century Writings of Kshama Rao' It was an honor to edit this fabulous collection of papers, which I hope you enjoy reading as much as I have.With best wishes,Lauren Lauren Bausch Assistant Professor Dharma Realm Buddhist University _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Mar 3 14:09:13 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 03 Mar 19 06:09:13 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????????????? ??????? ??? ??????? ? ??????? ???????????? ???????? ???? ?? ??????? If the Gokula is fragrant with the fragrance of the feet of Krishna, I am waiting for his arrival. My home is not too far. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 08:36:17 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 14:06:17 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Calcutta Oriental Journal Vol 1, page 234-236 PDF request Message-ID: Dear all I am searching for, Calcutta Oriental Journal Volume- 1 Pages- 234-236 Artical by P.K.Gode Title- 'A commentary on Rutusamhar of Kalidasa by Amarakirtisuri' A scholar friend of mine needs this. Your help would be appreciated. Thanks Yours sincerely Krishna Prasad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr Mon Mar 4 08:41:52 2019 From: Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr (KORN Agnes) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 08:41:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] for colleagues and friends wishing to remember Chlodwig Werba Message-ID: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B84627C8A3@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> Dear all, For those who can't be in Vienna 19 March for the memorial mass (15h00 (3pm) in the Votivkirche), but wish to participate in their thoughts / express their condolences, I've started a list of names and will contact the priest (who has offered that people participate in the service) during the next days to ask whether he finds appropriate to read out the names during the service. I am also thinking about printing the list, buying a card and give it to Chlodwig's family. Anyone who wishes to have their name added to the list, please send a message to : agnes.korn at cnrs.fr Feel free to add a sentence or two (in German or English) if you wish to do so. Best, Agnes ---------------------- Agnes Korn agnes.korn at cnrs.fr CNRS FRE Mondes iranien et indien 27 rue Paul Bert F - 94204 Ivry t?l. : +33 (0)1 49 60 49 30 fax : +33 (0)1 45 21 94 19 http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/membres/membres-permanents/korn-agnes.html From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Mar 4 15:04:27 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 07:04:27 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????:???????????????????????: ? ?????????????????? ????? ???????? ??????? When Krishna comes home, all sorrows vanish, limitless joy arises and the oscillations of mind cease. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 16:46:41 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 22:16:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Calcutta Oriental Journal Vol 1, page 234-236 PDF request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Prof Christian Fresti and Christophe Vielle, and speacial thanks to Christian Fresti for finding out the article is in 2nd volume but not first Yours sincerely KP On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:06 PM Krishnaprasad G wrote: > Dear all > I am searching for, > Calcutta Oriental Journal > Volume- 1 > Pages- 234-236 > > Artical by P.K.Gode > > Title- > 'A commentary on Rutusamhar of Kalidasa by Amarakirtisuri' > > A scholar friend of mine needs this. Your help would be appreciated. > Thanks > > Yours sincerely > Krishna Prasad > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:53:32 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 00:23:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Asko Parpola, You rely for your dating on " the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth century bce." For this, you seem to rely just on the occurrence of words in texts. But historians of mirror have said with enough non-textual evidences that high tin bronze mirrors were known in India at least by 1000 BCE. On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 8:16 PM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Asko, > > > Yes, it's a great paper, an important addition to the evidence that some > of the UpaniSads are later than we had been taught. On lexical grounds, I > had earlier concluded that some parts of the Ch.U. are post-Buddhist, > particularly the eighth book, which most interestingly, in the light of > your conclusions, also concerns mirrors. It now seems clear (as a mirror!) > that a revision of dating is warranted. > > > thank you and best regards, > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Saturday, March 2, 2019 7:14:45 AM > *To:* Asko Parpola > *Cc:* Indology List; +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and > present relevance in dating texts > > Dear Asko, > > Thank you for the important paper. > > regards, > > Joanna > > --- > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > 00-927 Warszawa > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > pt., 1 mar 2019 o 11:53 Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > > > Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have > a new answer to this question in my paper > > The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in > dating texts > > published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A > pdf is downloadable at > > https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 > > Here is the abstract: > > The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible all > mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 > bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit > and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic > rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. > The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that > emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature > of the Sa?hit?s, Br?hma?as, ?ra?yakas and ?rautas?tras (excepting the late > K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at all. This > suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was > introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth > century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early > Upani?ads and comprising also the G?hyas?tras and K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra, > would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other words, the ?mirror? words seem > to offer a criterion that for the first time enables a division of the > Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases of development. Equally > important is the firm historical basis that the mirror provides for dating > the transition point. > > With best regards and wishes, Asko > > > Asko Parpola, Ph.D. > Professor emeritus of Indology > University of Helsinki > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at gwu.edu Mon Mar 4 19:28:25 2019 From: beitel at gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 14:28:25 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would be very grateful if someone could supply me either with the full Sanskrit text of K?lid?sa?s ??kuntala, or just the Sanskrit of the following verse from ??kuntala V, ramy??? v?k?ya: You see something amazing, and it moves you. You hear something wonderful, and it touches you. You were happy, but now you?re restless. Perhaps you?re remembering for the first time, friendships still alive with feeling, buried deep in your mind. (from David Shulman?'s "Notes on Camatk?ra"), Thanks, Alf Hiltebeitel From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Mar 4 19:39:44 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 11:39:44 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: *ramy??i v?k?ya madhur??? ca ni?amya ?abd?n* *paryutsuko bhavati yat sukhito ?pi jantu?* | *tac cetas? smarati n?nam abodha-p?rvam* *bh?va-sthir??i janan?ntara-sauh?d?ni *|| Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Alfred Hiltebeitel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would be very grateful if someone could supply me either with the > full Sanskrit text of K?lid?sa?s ??kuntala, or just the Sanskrit of > the following verse from ??kuntala V, ramy??? v?k?ya: > > You see something amazing, and it moves you. > You hear something wonderful, and it touches you. > You were happy, but now you?re restless. > Perhaps you?re remembering for the first time, > friendships still alive with feeling, > buried deep in your mind. > > (from David Shulman?'s "Notes on Camatk?ra"), > > Thanks, > Alf Hiltebeitel > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 00:45:15 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 19:45:15 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Van_Buitenen's_article_on_ak=E1=B9=A3ara?= Message-ID: Dear list members, Firstly Happy Shivaratri to everyone. Secondly does anyone have a pdf of Van Buitenen's article on ak?ara . Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Mar 5 01:08:05 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 19 17:08:05 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Van_Buitenen's_article_on_ak=E1=B9=A3ara?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Harry, Here is the pdf of that article. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 4:46 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > > Firstly Happy Shivaratri to everyone. > > Secondly does anyone have a pdf of Van Buitenen's article on ak?ara . > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Buitenen-OnAksara.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2546494 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shrinsaha at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 05:32:53 2019 From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 11:02:53 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Van_Buitenen's_article_on_ak=E1=B9=A3ara?= In-Reply-To: <1551751102113.586257808@boxbe> Message-ID: Professor Deshpande, Thank you so much for the attachment. With best regards, Niranjan Publications: https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 7:28 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > [image: Boxbe] This message is eligible > for Automatic Cleanup! (indology at list.indology.info) Add cleanup rule > > | More info > > Hello Harry, > > Here is the pdf of that article. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 4:46 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> >> Firstly Happy Shivaratri to everyone. >> >> Secondly does anyone have a pdf of Van Buitenen's article on ak?ara . >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 5 12:32:47 2019 From: csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk (Csaba Dezso) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 13:32:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new Indology MA course Message-ID: <8a75500a-9696-447b-dc18-b2648a8c0c25@yahoo.co.uk> Dear Colleagues, Please allow me to call your attention to the new *English language MA programme in Indology* at the Department of Indian Studies, *E?tv?s Lor?nd University*, Budapest. The programme is a two-year, full-time course, including four semesters. It has two specializations: Sanskrit and Hindi. The students of the programme acquire a deep and thorough knowledge of the chosen language (Sanskrit or Hindi) and with the help of this, they study a wide range of subjects (history, literature, religious studies, philosophy, art history, etc.) through the reading and analysis of primary sources. The teachers at the department are specialized in Sanskrit philology and literature, Indo-Aryan and Comparative Indo-European linguistics, Hindi language and literature. For more *information* on the MA course in general visit the website of the university (https://www.elte.hu/en/indology-ma) or write an e-mail to ittzes.mate at btk.elte.hu or dezso.csaba at btk.elte.hu *Application* is possible through the following webpage: https://apply.elte.hu/ Application *deadlines* for the 2019/2020 academic year are 15th April and 15th June 2019. With best wishes, Csaba Dezs? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Mar 5 14:19:06 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 06:19:06 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ?????????? ???? ? ?????????? ???? ??? ?? ?????????????????? ??????? I saw the face of Krishna, like the moon at night and like the sun during day. What else is worth seeing for me? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Mar 5 16:03:50 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 06:03:50 -1000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_vair=C4=81gya?= Message-ID: Dear Friends, I would like to ask if you have favorite discussions of vair?gya in Indological lit., whether essays or books. I have a student from the Philosophy program interested in writing about vair?gya and emotional disgust/detachment. I have referred him to Kosambi's great piece on Bhartrhari, but blanking on a locus classicus for vair?gya per se. As always I will be very grateful for your help Best,J -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 16:52:21 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 11:52:21 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Van_Buitenen's_article_on_ak=E1=B9=A3ara?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to Antonia Ruppel, Aleksandar Uskokov, and , Madhav Deshpande, for the article. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 7:45 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > Firstly Happy Shivaratri to everyone. > > Secondly does anyone have a pdf of Van Buitenen's article on ak?ara . > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Mar 5 20:47:34 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 10:47:34 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks Message-ID: Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip Mass for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it Tue Mar 5 22:20:56 2019 From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 23:20:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <93470C33-B9A9-4F8A-BBF7-382F7FAED0DB@uniroma1.it> Dear Jesse, if your student is starting to weary of vair?gya, he might like a Tantric antidote... (https://www.academia.edu/31112206/_PDF_improved_R._Torella-Emotions_in_Indian_Thought-Systems_Chapter_1.pdf ) Cari saluti Raffaele > Il giorno 05 mar 2019, alle ore 21:47, Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY ha scritto: > > Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip Mass for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Prof. Raffaele Torella Chair of Sanskrit Sapienza University of Rome www.academia.edu/raffaeletorella -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 22:23:27 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 15:23:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jesse, Could you make some of these references public here on the list? I, too, am interested in vair?gya. Thanks! Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:48 PM Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip Mass > for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Mar 5 23:48:57 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 13:48:57 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: and last but not least, Greg Bailey! On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 10:47 AM Jesse Knutson wrote: > Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip Mass > for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Mar 5 23:51:58 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 13:51:58 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: and finally, Raffaele Torella, for some Tantric relief. I will collect the references and share with those of you who have requested them. Best,J On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 10:47 AM Jesse Knutson wrote: > Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip Mass > for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Tue Mar 5 23:53:37 2019 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 08:53:37 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: *??nta *and* vair?gya* are two fundamental ideas at the basis of the *R?jatara?gi??* literary genre of history writing in Kashmir. The various *R?jatara?gi??*s aim at generating emotional responses on the part of the reader with a view to prompting liberating effects. They are all the more effective if what is expressed there in a poetically manner corresponds to historical facts (*yath?bh?tam*): Insight into the truth about the human condition must ultimately lead to *vair?gya*. These concepts of historical truth poetry are based on Kashmiri theories of literature (*rasa, dhvani*). See: Walter Slaje, ?In the Guise of Poetry? ? Kalha?a Reconsidered. In: ??str?rambha. Inquiries into the Preamble in Sanskrit. Edited by Walter Slaje. Preface by Edwin Gerow. [AKM. LXII]. Wiesbaden 2008: 207?244. Lawrence McCrea, ??ntarasa in the R?jatara?gi??: History, epic and moral decay. *The Indian Economic and Social History Review* 50, 2 (2013): 179?199. Luther Obrock, History at the end of history: ?r?vara?s Jainatara?gi??. *The Indian Economic and Social History Review* 50, 2 (2013): 221?236. The liberating literary method as such was applied already by A?vagho?a: Roland Steiner, Truth under the Guise of Poetry. A?vagho?a?s ?Life of the Buddha?. In: Biography in the Buddhist Traditions. Ed. by Linda Covill, Ulrike Roesler, Sarah Shaw. Boston 2010: 89?121. Another Kashmiri work of major importance which aims at triggering liberating effects through mere insight is the Mok?op?ya (alias Yogav?si??ha), as the title of its first Prakara?a (?*Vair?gya-Prakara?a*?) unambiguously indicates: Text: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_Textedition_Teil_1._Das_erste_und_zweite_Buch:_Vairagyaprakarana_Mumuksuvyavaharaprakarana/titel_3591.ahtml and translation: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_%C3%9Cbersetzung_Teil_1_Das_Erste_und_Zweite_Buch:_Das_Buch_%C3%BCber_die_Leidenschaftslosigkeit_Das_Buch_%C3%BCber_das_Verhalten_der_Befreiungssucher/titel_340.ahtml Kind regards, WS Am Mi., 6. M?rz 2019 um 07:23 Uhr schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY : > Dear Jesse, > > Could you make some of these references public here on the list? I, too, > am interested in vair?gya. Thanks! > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:48 PM Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip >> Mass for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > ----------------------------- Univ.-Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Wed Mar 6 06:59:47 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 19 20:59:47 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Finally I must add Andrea Acri, Walter Slaje, and Luther Obrock to the list of people (I hope I haven't forgotten anyone) who provided valuable resources. There seems to be a veritable passion for vair?gya on this list! On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jesse Knutson wrote: > and finally, Raffaele Torella, for some Tantric relief. I will collect the > references and share with those of you who have requested them. Best,J > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 10:47 AM Jesse Knutson wrote: > >> Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip >> Mass for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J >> > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature > Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Wed Mar 6 08:14:54 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 08:14:54 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_foot-mark_in_Kharo=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I have a question about the so-called foot-mark in the Kharo??h? in the A?oka inscriptions in Sh?hb?zgarh? and M?nsehr?, or if what A.H Dani says about it (Indian Palaeography, p. 260 and p. 149) is all there is. What I would like to know is if it has a meaning or not. According to Dani it hasn't. For, on p. 149, while trying to explain the foot-mark in the Bower manuscript (birch bark), he writes: "that the writer lifted his pen with a back stroke and hence resulted in an upward slant at the foot". But the stonemason of the A?oka inscription was using a chisel, not a pen. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Mar 6 10:42:19 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 10:42:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jesse, You may also wish to note my intro to and trans of Prabodhacandrodaya. The intro is available on my academia page. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, PSL Research University, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:00 AM To: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] thanks Finally I must add Andrea Acri, Walter Slaje, and Luther Obrock to the list of people (I hope I haven't forgotten anyone) who provided valuable resources. There seems to be a veritable passion for vair?gya on this list! On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jesse Knutson > wrote: and finally, Raffaele Torella, for some Tantric relief. I will collect the references and share with those of you who have requested them. Best,J On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 10:47 AM Jesse Knutson > wrote: Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip Mass for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 11:17:06 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 16:47:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic Sample texts with all vedic accents Message-ID: Dear all I would like to check the Vedic text sample which includes all the possible Vedic accents which are available in Vedic Unicode Character maps (files attached both normal and extended). I would like to know how they look when printed along with Vedic verses. Either PDF or text file will be useful to include the same symbols in my new upcoming fonts. Could anyone please help me regarding this? Thanks a lot Best regards Krishna Prasad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: U1CD0.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 136277 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UA8E0.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 146837 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Mar 6 14:12:19 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 06:12:19 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???????? ????? ????? ??????????? ? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? Krishna, the thief who charms minds, came to my home and robbed me of all my belongings, and then he took me along with him as well. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Wed Mar 6 16:59:11 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 06:59:11 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Matthew! I hope you're well. Best,J On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 12:42 AM Matthew Kapstein Hi Jesse, > > You may also wish to note my intro to and trans of Prabodhacandrodaya. The > intro is available on my academia page. > > best, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, PSL Research University, Paris > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Jesse > Knutson via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:00 AM > *To:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] thanks > > Finally I must add Andrea Acri, Walter Slaje, and Luther Obrock to the > list of people (I hope I haven't forgotten anyone) who provided valuable > resources. There seems to be a veritable passion for vair?gya on this list! > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jesse Knutson wrote: > >> and finally, Raffaele Torella, for some Tantric relief. I will collect >> the references and share with those of you who have requested them. Best,J >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 10:47 AM Jesse Knutson >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks to Andrew Nicholson, Matthew Dasti, Kevin McGrath, and Phillip >>> Mass for a wealth of resources. My student also thanks you. Best,J >>> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD >> Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature >> Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures >> University of Hawai'i at M?noa >> 461 Spalding >> > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature > Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsalomon at uw.edu Wed Mar 6 21:12:32 2019 From: rsalomon at uw.edu (Richard G. Salomon) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 13:12:32 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_foot-mark_in_Kharo=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Herman, Re foot-marks in Kharosthi: long story and complicated: the place to start is pp. 21-28 of Andrew Glass's MA thesis (University of Washington, 2000) "A Preliminary Study of Kharo??h? Manuscript Paleography?) which I think is available on line; and then his 2007 volume, *Four G?ndh?r? Sa?yukt?gama S?tras: Senior Kharo??h? Fragment 5 (*Gandh?ran Buddhist Texts, Volume 4. Seattle: University of Washington Press), pp. 88-91. Basically, *true* footmarks are phonetically insignificant, incidental artifacts of the mechanics of handwriting (like serifs, Devanagari top-line, etc.). As Glass shows, they are very common and quite varied (as many as ten varieties) in manuscript Kharosthi. Such incidental marks are often (in various writing systems including Kharosthi) adopted into epigraphic writing. This whole issue is however complicated because the footmarks can sometimes be hard to distinguish from, on the one hand, the anusvara sign, and on the other, the diacritical sign at the base of various consonants, which *does *indicate a variant (fricative?) pronunciation in intervocalic position; see Glass 2007: 107 ff., and related discussions in other volumes of the Gandh?ran Buddhist Texts series). Rich Salomon On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 12:15 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > I have a question about the so-called foot-mark in the Kharo??h? in the > A?oka inscriptions in Sh?hb?zgarh? and M?nsehr?, or if what A.H Dani says > about it (Indian Palaeography, p. 260 and p. 149) is all there is. What I > would like to know is if it has a meaning or not. According to Dani it > hasn't. For, on p. 149, while trying to explain the foot-mark in the > Bower manuscript (birch bark), he writes: "that the writer lifted his pen > with a back stroke and hence resulted in an upward slant at the foot". But > the stonemason of the A?oka inscription was using a chisel, not a pen. > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 00:56:36 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 19:56:36 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic Sample texts with all vedic accents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Krishnaprasad, 1) You can see the usage of the Sama veda accents and marks in the omkArasAmaH manuscript in the "The Vedic Manuscript Collections of the Joglekar, Kodlekere and Samba Diksita families of Gokarna" collection of the Muktabodha digital library. The direct link to the manuscript is: http://muktalib5.org/VEDIC_ROOT/TEXTS/SAMBADIKSITA/SAMBADIKSITA-PDF/S0024.pdf username: vedic password: Vedic123 2) candrabindu over virama (ABF3) and double candrabindu over virama (ABF4) can be seen in Sastri and Rangacharya's edition ot the Taittiriya samhita.. (I don't have my library with me so I can't send you examples of this but I suspect this edition is in archive.org . 3) double svarita 1CDA . I haven't seen this in printed editions of the taittiriya samhita (such as Sastri and Rangacharya's edition mentioned above) but I've seen this in some chanting books of the Rudram . 4) triple svarita 1CDB . So any information about this accent from list members would be appreciated. Regards, Harry Spier On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 6:18 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all > I would like to check the Vedic text sample which includes all the > possible Vedic accents which are available in Vedic Unicode Character maps > (files attached both normal and extended). > I would like to know how they look when printed along with Vedic verses. > Either PDF or text file will be useful to include the same symbols in my > new upcoming fonts. Could anyone please help me regarding this? > Thanks a lot > Best regards > Krishna Prasad > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 03:41:44 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 09:11:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic Sample texts with all vedic accents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof Harry Spier Thanks a lot for sharing this. I will check this out. Regards KP On Thu 7 Mar, 2019, 6:26 AM Harry Spier, wrote: > Dear Krishnaprasad, > > 1) You can see the usage of the Sama veda accents and marks in the > omkArasAmaH manuscript in the "The Vedic Manuscript Collections of the > Joglekar, Kodlekere and Samba Diksita families of Gokarna" collection of > the Muktabodha digital library. > > The direct link to the manuscript is: > > http://muktalib5.org/VEDIC_ROOT/TEXTS/SAMBADIKSITA/SAMBADIKSITA-PDF/S0024.pdf > username: vedic password: Vedic123 > > > 2) candrabindu over virama (ABF3) and double candrabindu over virama > (ABF4) can be seen in Sastri and Rangacharya's edition ot the Taittiriya > samhita.. (I don't have my library with me so I can't send you examples of > this but I suspect this edition is in archive.org . > > 3) double svarita 1CDA . I haven't seen this in printed editions of the > taittiriya samhita (such as Sastri and Rangacharya's edition mentioned > above) but I've seen this in some chanting books of the Rudram . > > 4) triple svarita 1CDB . So any information about this accent from list > members would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Harry Spier > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 6:18 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all >> I would like to check the Vedic text sample which includes all the >> possible Vedic accents which are available in Vedic Unicode Character maps >> (files attached both normal and extended). >> I would like to know how they look when printed along with Vedic verses. >> Either PDF or text file will be useful to include the same symbols in my >> new upcoming fonts. Could anyone please help me regarding this? >> Thanks a lot >> Best regards >> Krishna Prasad >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 04:31:59 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 19 23:31:59 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic Sample texts with all vedic accents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Its Mr. Spier not Prof. Spier, but please call me Harry. On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 10:43 PM Krishnaprasad G wrote: > Dear Prof Harry Spier > Thanks a lot for sharing this. I will check this out. > Regards > KP > > On Thu 7 Mar, 2019, 6:26 AM Harry Spier, > wrote: > >> Dear Krishnaprasad, >> >> 1) You can see the usage of the Sama veda accents and marks in the >> omkArasAmaH manuscript in the "The Vedic Manuscript Collections of the >> Joglekar, Kodlekere and Samba Diksita families of Gokarna" collection of >> the Muktabodha digital library. >> >> The direct link to the manuscript is: >> >> http://muktalib5.org/VEDIC_ROOT/TEXTS/SAMBADIKSITA/SAMBADIKSITA-PDF/S0024.pdf >> username: vedic password: Vedic123 >> >> >> 2) candrabindu over virama (ABF3) and double candrabindu over virama >> (ABF4) can be seen in Sastri and Rangacharya's edition ot the Taittiriya >> samhita.. (I don't have my library with me so I can't send you examples of >> this but I suspect this edition is in archive.org . >> >> 3) double svarita 1CDA . I haven't seen this in printed editions of the >> taittiriya samhita (such as Sastri and Rangacharya's edition mentioned >> above) but I've seen this in some chanting books of the Rudram . >> >> 4) triple svarita 1CDB . So any information about this accent from list >> members would be appreciated. >> >> Regards, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 6:18 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear all >>> I would like to check the Vedic text sample which includes all the >>> possible Vedic accents which are available in Vedic Unicode Character maps >>> (files attached both normal and extended). >>> I would like to know how they look when printed along with Vedic verses. >>> Either PDF or text file will be useful to include the same symbols in >>> my new upcoming fonts. Could anyone please help me regarding this? >>> Thanks a lot >>> Best regards >>> Krishna Prasad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 05:42:17 2019 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 07:42:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, Thank you for pointing out this recurring slip of mind: I repeatedly (pp. 3, 4, 21 and 23 [thrice]) wrongly write ?k??a- when I mean ?dar?a- ?mirror?. Dear colleagues, please excuse this mistake and note the correction. With best wishes, Asko > On 4 Mar 2019, at 2.17, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > > Dear Asko, > > Your paper is very helpful, as many have already said. > > I am puzzled by your use of "?k??a" sometimes where I would expect you to say "?dar?a". Am I missing something? I have to admit, I haven't read your 2018 pr?k??a article. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, > Department of History and Classics , > University of Alberta, Canada. > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 03:53, Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have a new answer to this question in my paper > > The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in dating texts > > published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A pdf is downloadable at > > https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 > > Here is the abstract: > > The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible all mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature of the Sam?hita?s, Bra?hman?as, A?ran?yakas and S?rautasu?tras (excepting the late Ka?tya?yana-S?rautasu?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at all. This suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early Upanis?ads and comprising also the Gr?hyasu?tras and Ka?tya?yana-S?rautasu?tra, would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other words, the ?mirror? words seem to offer a criterion that for the first time enables a division of the Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases of development. Equally important is the firm historical basis that the mirror provides for dating the transition point. > > > With best regards and wishes, Asko > > > Asko Parpola, Ph.D. > Professor emeritus of Indology > University of Helsinki > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 06:19:21 2019 From: c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com (Malcolm Keating) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 14:19:21 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Compounds: A Philosophical Study Message-ID: Does anyone have an e-version of Mulakaluri Srimannarayana Murti's "Sanskrit Compounds: A Philosophical Study"? It was published as Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series 93 in 1974 but was previously a dissertation. Either form would be acceptable. I have checked Shodhganga and while it is listed, I do not seem able to download it. The book is out of print and interlibrary loan to Singapore takes some time. Best, Malcolm -- -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arfalques at cantab.net Thu Mar 7 06:39:55 2019 From: arfalques at cantab.net (=?utf-8?Q?Aleix_Ruiz_Falqu=C3=A9s?=) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 13:09:55 +0630 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Compounds: A Philosophical Study In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I would also be interested in a copy of this book. Thank you in advance. Best wishes, Aleix On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 12:49, Malcolm Keating via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Does anyone have an e-version of Mulakaluri Srimannarayana Murti's > "Sanskrit Compounds: A Philosophical Study"? It was published as Chowkhamba > Sanskrit Series 93 in 1974 but was previously a dissertation. Either form > would be acceptable. I have checked Shodhganga and while it is listed, I do > not seem able to download it. The book is out of print and interlibrary > loan to Singapore takes some time. > > Best, > Malcolm > > -- > -- > Malcolm Keating > Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) > | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg > > Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me > Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 07:37:40 2019 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 09:37:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, I do mention in my paper that high tin bronze mirrors were made in India already in the Indus Civilization, and that the technique was known in South India in early first millennium BCE. But the complete absence of any reference to mirrors in the Sa?hit?, Br?hma?a, ?ra?yaka and ?rautas?tra literature (excepting the Upani?ads later added to the ?B and the ?gvedic ?ra?yakas and the late K?S) very strongly suggests that the mirror was not know in early Vedic times in North India. With best regards, ?Asok" > On 4 Mar 2019, at 20.53, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > Dear Prof. Asko Parpola, > > You rely for your dating on " the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth century bce." > > For this, you seem to rely just on the occurrence of words in texts. > > But historians of mirror have said with enough non-textual evidences that high tin bronze mirrors were known in India at least by 1000 BCE. > > On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 8:16 PM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Asko, > > Yes, it's a great paper, an important addition to the evidence that some of the UpaniSads are later than we had been taught. On lexical grounds, I had earlier concluded that some parts of the Ch.U. are post-Buddhist, particularly the eighth book, which most interestingly, in the light of your conclusions, also concerns mirrors. It now seems clear (as a mirror!) that a revision of dating is warranted. > > thank you and best regards, > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY > > Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2019 7:14:45 AM > To: Asko Parpola > Cc: Indology List; +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts > > Dear Asko, > > Thank you for the important paper. > > regards, > > Joanna > > --- > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > 00-927 Warszawa > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > pt., 1 mar 2019 o 11:53 Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY > napisa?(a): > > Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have a new answer to this question in my paper > > The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in dating texts > > published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A pdf is downloadable at > > https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 > > Here is the abstract: > > The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible all mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature of the Sa?hit?s, Br?hma?as, ?ra?yakas and ?rautas?tras (excepting the late K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at all. This suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early Upani?ads and comprising also the G?hyas?tras and K?ty?yana-?rautas?tra, would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other words, the ?mirror? words seem to offer a criterion that for the first time enables a division of the Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases of development. Equally important is the firm historical basis that the mirror provides for dating the transition point. > > > With best regards and wishes, Asko > > > Asko Parpola, Ph.D. > Professor emeritus of Indology > University of Helsinki > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 10:10:05 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 15:40:05 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and present relevance in dating texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Ask Parpola, Can we be sure that the authors of Upanishads were so isolated from the India that used mirrors by the time they were authoring those texts? While we see Dravidian and south Indian linguistic and other elements in various Vedic texts and Sanskrit , can we propose this isolation selectively in the case of these texts? Another crucial question is how sure can we be of the exhaustive coverage every piece of material culture, floors or fauna of known to a linguistic group in their texts? Can absence of a word be taken as evidence for the absence of the entity indicated by it? On Thu, Mar 7, 2019, 2:16 PM Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik, > > > Thank you for pointing out this recurring slip of mind: I repeatedly (pp. > 3, 4, 21 and 23 [thrice]) wrongly write ?k??a- when I mean ?dar?a- > ?mirror?. Dear colleagues, please excuse this mistake and note the > correction. > > With best wishes, Asko > > > On 4 Mar 2019, at 2.17, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Dear Asko, > > Your paper is very helpful, as many have already said. > > I am puzzled by your use of "?k??a" sometimes where I would expect you to > say "?dar?a". Am I missing something? I have to admit, I haven't read > your 2018 pr?k??a article. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 03:53, Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> >> Some time ago there was a query about the date of the Upanishads. I have >> a new answer to this question in my paper >> >> The Mirror in Vedic India: Its ancient use and its present relevance in >> dating texts >> >> published today in: Studia Orientalia Electronica vol. 7 (2019): 1-29. A >> pdf is downloadable at >> >> https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/5490 >> >> Here is the abstract: >> >> The major first part of the paper collects as exhaustively as possible >> all mentions of words for ?mirror? occuring in Vedic literature (c.1200?300 >> bce). The occurrences are presented with sufficient context in Sanskrit >> and English in order to show how and why the mirror was used in Vedic >> rituals and Vedic culture in general, and what meaning was ascribed to it. >> The second part of the paper discusses a fact of major significance that >> emerges from this documentation: in the extensive older Vedic literature >> of the Sam?hita?s, Bra?hman?as, A?ran?yakas and S?rautasu?tras (excepting >> the late Ka?tya?yana-S?rautasu?tra), there is no reference to the mirror at >> all. This suggests that the mirror was not known in Vedic India until it >> was introduced to South Asia by the Persian Empire at the end of the sixth >> century bce. The later Vedic literature, starting with the early >> Upanis?ads and comprising also the Gr?hyasu?tras and >> Ka?tya?yana-S?rautasu?tra, would therefore postdate 500 bce. In other >> words, the ?mirror? words seem to offer a criterion that for the first time >> enables a division of the Vedic literature into two clearly separate phases >> of development. Equally important is the firm historical basis that the >> mirror provides for dating the transition point. >> >> With best regards and wishes, Asko >> >> >> Asko Parpola, Ph.D. >> Professor emeritus of Indology >> University of Helsinki >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 10:50:24 2019 From: c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com (Malcolm Keating) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 18:50:24 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Compounds: A Philosophical Study In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Thanks to Dr. Arjun Kashyap for the link, which is http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/70988?mode=full in case others are interested. I believe there may have been a temporary server issue preventing the download, but I've now been able to download the PDF. If anyone else cannot, I'm happy to send it. Best, Malcolm On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 2:19 PM Malcolm Keating wrote: > Does anyone have an e-version of Mulakaluri Srimannarayana Murti's > "Sanskrit Compounds: A Philosophical Study"? It was published as Chowkhamba > Sanskrit Series 93 in 1974 but was previously a dissertation. Either form > would be acceptable. I have checked Shodhganga and while it is listed, I do > not seem able to download it. The book is out of print and interlibrary > loan to Singapore takes some time. > > Best, > Malcolm > > -- > -- > Malcolm Keating > Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) > | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg > > Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me > Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Mar 7 14:38:59 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 19 06:38:59 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????????? ? ????????? ??? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????? ????? ??????? O Krishna, you a great thief, your deed is indeed splendid. You drove me out of my mind, and then you occupied it playfully. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz Fri Mar 8 03:51:36 2019 From: clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz (Clemency Montelle) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 19 03:51:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Latest release of the Shobhika font (version 1.05) from SandHI Message-ID: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FF0C9D2@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz> Shared on behalf of SandHI (Science and Heritage Initiative), IIT Bombay ------- IIT Bombay is pleased to announce the latest release of the Shobhika font. Version 1.05 includes rules for correct rendering of more vedic accents (particularly the M?dhyandina ??kh? of the ?ukla Yajurveda) and also fixes a minor bug. The latest version of the font and detailed release notes can be found at: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/releases Shobhika is an open source font. The source code as well as further details regarding the font can be found below: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika The following brochure describes and showcases various features of Shobhika. The brochure may be distributed within your institution and beyond to interested parties: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/blob/master/docs/Shobhika.pdf As always, we welcome bug reports, suggestions, and other comments at our GitHub page: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/issues SandHI (Science and Heritage Initiative), IIT Bombay ---- Dr. Clemency Montelle Professor School of Mathematics and Statistics University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140 NEW ZEALAND http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 8 13:55:54 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 19 05:55:54 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ????? ????????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???????????????? ??????? ???? ???: ? ?? ??? ??????? They ask me: who is this friend of yours, with whom you always rejoice? [I reply:] My friend is the one whose brilliance makes the sun and the moon shine in heaven. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From racleach at googlemail.com Fri Mar 8 14:32:31 2019 From: racleach at googlemail.com (Robert Leach) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 19 14:32:31 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Renou_"La_Maison_V=C3=A9dique"?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I'd be very grateful if anyone could provide me with a soft copy of this article by Renou, found in Journal Asiatique vol. 231 (1939), pp. 481-504 (this particular volume seems not to be available online). Many thanks in advance, Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roccocestola at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 17:14:15 2019 From: roccocestola at gmail.com (Rocco Cestola) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 19 18:14:15 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ga=E1=B9=85ge=C5=9Ba's_=C4=AA=C5=9Bvarav=C4=81da?= Message-ID: Dear list members, does anyone would be so kind to share a pdf of the following work? Vattanky, J. 2011*, Ga?ge?a's Philosophy of God: Analysis, Text, Translation and Interpretation of ??varav?da Section of Ga?ge?a' s Tattvacint?ma?i with a Study on the Development of Ny?ya Theism, *The Adyar Library and Research Centre, Chennai, India. Many thanks in advance, Rocco Cestola PhD, "Sapienza" Universit? di Roma -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellmers at gmx.de Fri Mar 8 22:27:20 2019 From: sellmers at gmx.de (Sven Sellmer) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 19 23:27:20 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] MESIC 11: Invitation to Students' Conference Message-ID: <6B4C760A-BB49-4233-849A-0C2E52B31B9B@gmx.de> Dear Colleagues! On behalf of my students I would like to let you know that the 11th edition of the Middle European Students' Indology Conference (MESIC) is going to take place in Pozna?, Poland, from 17th-19th May. Please inform your students about this splendid opportunity to present their work and meet fellow enthusiats. Basic information is available at: https://www.facebook.com/mesicpoznan2019 Best wishes, Sven From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 02:50:39 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 19 08:20:39 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Latest release of the Shobhika font (version 1.05) from SandHI In-Reply-To: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FF0C9D2@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: Dear Clemency Controle Thanks for this wonderful fonts. I have observed some overlaps in Shobhika. Compared to my new Adisila fonts. If you have more difficult Vedic samples please send me. Your help is greatly admired. Thanks KP On Fri 8 Mar, 2019, 9:22 AM Clemency Montelle via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Shared on behalf of SandHI (Science and Heritage Initiative), IIT Bombay > > ------- > > IIT Bombay is pleased to announce the latest release of the Shobhika font. > Version 1.05 includes rules for correct rendering of more vedic accents > (particularly the M?dhyandina ??kh? of the ?ukla Yajurveda) and also fixes > a minor bug. The latest version of the font and detailed release notes can > be found at: > https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/releases > > Shobhika is an open source font. The source code as well as further > details regarding the font can be found below: > https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika > > The following brochure describes and showcases various features of > Shobhika. > The brochure may be distributed within your institution and beyond to > interested parties: > https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/blob/master/docs/Shobhika.pdf > > As always, we welcome bug reports, suggestions, and other comments at our > GitHub page: > https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/issues > > SandHI (Science and Heritage Initiative), IIT Bombay > > ---- > > Dr. Clemency Montelle > > Professor > > School of Mathematics and Statistics > > University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha > > Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140 > > NEW ZEALAND > > http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG-20190308-WA0008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 146705 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Mar 9 14:18:19 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 19 06:18:19 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ?? ????????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ? ???? ? ?????????????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? O Friend, I will go with you wherever you will take me. With you leading me, I will not step into a wrong step. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birendra176 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 9 15:24:12 2019 From: birendra176 at yahoo.com (Birendra Nath Prasad) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 19 15:24:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 74, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <1674506484.1885443.1552145052901.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1674506484.1885443.1552145052901@mail.yahoo.com> Respected Colleagues, I am looking for a PDF copy of the following work for my personal use: Ramacharitam of Sandhyakaranandi: edited by R.C. Majumdar & R.G.Basak If any of my esteemed colleagues could be of some help, I will be thankful. You may kindly send it as an email attachment. Thanking you in advance Dr. Birendra Nath Prasad Assistant Professor Centre for Historical Studies Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi-110067 Email: bnprasad at mail.jnu.ac.in https://www.jnu.ac.in/Faculty/bnprasad/cv.pdf -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 3/8/19, wrote: Subject: INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 74, Issue 9 To: indology at list.indology.info Date: Friday, March 8, 2019, 5:00 PM Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to ??? indology at list.indology.info To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? indology-request at list.indology.info You can reach the person managing the list at ??? indology-owner at list.indology.info When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Latest release of the Shobhika font (version 1.05) from ? ? ? SandHI (Clemency Montelle) ? 2. Continuing my Krishna verses (Madhav Deshpande) ? 3. Renou "La Maison V?dique" (Robert Leach) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2019 03:51:36 +0000 From: Clemency Montelle To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Latest release of the Shobhika font (version 1.05) ??? from SandHI Message-ID: ??? <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FF0C9D2 at UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz> ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1257" Shared on behalf of? SandHI (Science and Heritage Initiative), IIT Bombay ------- IIT Bombay is pleased to announce the latest release of the Shobhika font. Version 1.05 includes rules for correct rendering of more vedic accents (particularly the M?dhyandina ??kh? of the ?ukla Yajurveda) and also fixes a minor bug. The latest version of the font and detailed release notes can be found at: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/releases Shobhika is an open source font. The source code as well as further details regarding the font can be found below: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika The following brochure describes and showcases various features of Shobhika. The brochure may be distributed within your institution and beyond to interested parties: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/blob/master/docs/Shobhika.pdf As always, we welcome bug reports, suggestions, and other comments at our GitHub page: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika/issues SandHI (Science and Heritage Initiative), IIT Bombay ---- Dr. Clemency Montelle Professor School of Mathematics and Statistics University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140 NEW ZEALAND http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 05:55:54 -0800 From: Madhav Deshpande To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ????? ????????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???????????????? ??????? ???? ???: ? ?? ??? ??????? They ask me: who is this friend of yours, with whom you always rejoice? [I reply:] My friend is the one whose brilliance makes the sun and the moon shine in heaven. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 14:32:31 +0000 From: Robert Leach To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Renou "La Maison V?dique" Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear colleagues, I'd be very grateful if anyone could provide me with a soft copy of this article by Renou, found in Journal Asiatique vol. 231 (1939), pp. 481-504 (this particular volume seems not to be available online). Many thanks in advance, Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info ------------------------------ End of INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 74, Issue 9 *************************************** From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Sat Mar 9 16:19:08 2019 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 19 16:19:08 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Renou_"La_Maison_V=C3=A9dique"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here a scan of my xerox, Best wishes, Christophe Le 8 mars 2019 ? 15:32, Robert Leach via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear colleagues, I'd be very grateful if anyone could provide me with a soft copy of this article by Renou, found in Journal Asiatique vol. 231 (1939), pp. 481-504 (this particular volume seems not to be available online). Many thanks in advance, Robert _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Renou_Maisonvedique_JA1939.PDF Type: application/pdf Size: 1427465 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Mar 10 13:13:25 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 19 06:13:25 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ??? ???????? ???????? ???? ???? ? ??? ??? ??: ?????? "?? ??????????? ????" ??????? O Lord, protect me from the danger of falling at every step. At every step, I hear the voice: "Don't be afraid. Just follow me." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Mar 11 13:09:08 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 19 06:09:08 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ?????? ??????????????: ? ?????????????????? ????? ???????????? ??????? Krishna, showering his compassion, is dedicated to protecting the world. He constantly pacifies all the troubles for his devotees with ease. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Mon Mar 11 16:57:43 2019 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 19 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fourth Middle Bengali retreat - reminder In-Reply-To: <20190227214937.b5a26ab2664004a1cf5c5f56@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <20190311175844.588e1014a4be506cb44c1022@ff.cuni.cz> Dear Colleauges, I would like to remind you that the deadline for applications for the Fourth Middle Bengali retreat is March 15th. With best regards, Lubomir On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 21:49:37 +0100 Lubom?r Ondra?ka wrote: > Dear Colleauges, > > prof. Thibaut d'Hubert asked me to share this announcement with the list members: > > > > Dear all, > > Please, note that the Fourth Middle Bengali retreat will take place in Morocco, from August 4th to 12th, 2019. > You will find all the details regarding the venue, the daily schedule, and links to the detailed programs of the previous retreats on this blog: > https://voices.uchicago.edu/middlebengali/ > NB: The deadline to submit the application form (available on the website) is March 15th. > > Please, share this message with anyone you think might be interested. > > All the best, > > Thibaut > > --- > > Thibaut d'Hubert > Bengali language and Bengal studies > South Asian Languages and Civilizations > The University of Chicago > http://salc.uchicago.edu/faculty/d-hubert > https://chicago.academia.edu/ThibautdHubert From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Mar 12 13:28:00 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 06:28:00 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???????????? ???? ???????? ????????? ? ?????????????? ???? ??????? ?????: ??????? During the games on the bank of Yamuna, covering their eyes with bands, the cowherds run all around to catch Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 14:02:45 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 15:02:45 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Message-ID: Dear All, anyone by chance can share a pdf of this contribute: Patricia Dold. 2013. "Re-imagining Religious History through Women's Song Performance at the Kamakhya Temple Site." In *Reimagining South Asian Religions: Essays in Honor of Professors Harold G. Coward and Ronald W. Neufeldt*. Eds: Michael Hawley and Pashaura Singh. Leiden: Brill. 133-154 Sincerely, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Mar 12 17:16:40 2019 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 17:16:40 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fifth International Intensive Course in Old Javanese Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am happy to be able to announce the Fifth International Intensive Course in Old Javanese. Please see: And for those more at home in social media than I am: . Sincerely, Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Tue Mar 12 18:02:07 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 19:02:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial Message-ID: Dear all, I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his lifespan (1901-1976). Many Thanks, Victor P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. [image: image.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luther.obrock at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 18:20:57 2019 From: luther.obrock at gmail.com (luther obrock) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 14:20:57 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Workshop in Gupta Epigraphy at U Toronto Message-ID: Dear All, I am happy to announce the Workshop on Gupta Epigraphy at the University of Toronto, Mississauga. Please find the description attached below and circulate widely, especially to graduate students The 2nd Annual Indian Epigraphy Workshop for scholars and students of ancient South Asia will take place in Mississauga, Canada, on August 5th, 2019 through August 9th, 2019. The workshop is offered through a collaboration between the University of Pennsylvania - South Asian Studies Department and The Centre of South Asian Civilizations and Historical Studies Departments at the University of Toronto - Mississauga campus. The University of Toronto - Mississauga is hosting this year?s workshop. We issue a warm invitation to students and scholars of religion, history, art history, and literature in South Asia, who have studied Sanskrit for a few years and are studying or familiar with classical and medieval India. Participants attending this week-long workshop will learn the basics of Gupta epigraphy, paleography, inscriptional language, and history. The Gupta Age has been seen as the "Golden Age" of Indian civilization. Apart from the literary and scientific literature ascribed to this time, the Guptas and affiliated polities produced a rich material archive of monumental architecture, sculpture, and inscriptions. The Gupta reign left a wide-ranging body of inscriptions, in which kings, nobles, and religious elites commemorated their pious donations and political victories. This workshop will allow attendees access to a rich archive of epigraphic material by giving a basic familiarity with the corpus and the tools to use inscriptional sources in further research. Further, we will analyze inscriptions in the context of the built landscapes in which they were encountered and viewed. We take the inscriptions as material and textual sources functioning within the larger context of sites and polities Elizabeth Cecil from the Florida State University, an expert in Gupta epigraphy, religion, art and culture, will lead the workshop along with Daud Ali from the University of Pennsylvania, Luther Obrock from the University of Toronto and Jason Neelis from Wilfrid Laurier University. Each day will consist of three sessions: A morning reading session, an afternoon lecture or discussion, and an afternoon reading session. During the reading sessions participants will be expected to read the inscriptions in the original scripts with the help of experts. They will learn to use editions, estampages, and photographs to make sense of material remains. Each day will also have a lecture and discussion meant to familiarize the participant with the debates spurring the field. There are no fees associated with attending the workshop itself, and room and board will be provided gratis to a limited number of initial participants. It is recommended that participants apply to their home institutions for financial aid before asking for travel accommodation assistance. For registration details and additional information or inquiries please contact: Luther Obrock luther.obrock at utoronto.ca Daud Ali daudali at sas.upenn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 18:35:39 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 19 00:05:39 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://acharya.org/bk/pb/brpn/index.html has it as *B R Purushothama Naidu* In Tamil, B can stand for bu or pu and R can stand for raa On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:32 PM victor davella via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the > first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the > autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, > but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the > letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his > lifespan (1901-1976). > > Many Thanks, > > Victor > > P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. > > [image: image.png] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Tue Mar 12 18:38:00 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 19:38:00 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I see that the image has not come through. I will send it tomorrow when I return the office. Many Thanks, Victor victor davella schrieb am Di., 12. M?rz 2019, 19:02: > Dear all, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the > first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the > autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, > but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the > letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his > lifespan (1901-1976). > > Many Thanks, > > Victor > > P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. > > [image: image.png] > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch Tue Mar 12 19:46:08 2019 From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 19:46:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication Message-ID: <5B427E27-44FB-440C-A2B5-053D8CAF7895@unil.ch> Dear friends and colleagues, Please be informed that my book A ?abda Reader: Language in Classical Indian Thought (Columbia University Press) has just come out: https://cup.columbia.edu/book/a-sabda-reader/9780231189408 Johannes Bronkhorst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 04:48:20 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 19 22:48:20 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication In-Reply-To: <5B427E27-44FB-440C-A2B5-053D8CAF7895@unil.ch> Message-ID: Congratulations, Johannes. I ordered my copy yesterday :-) -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 at 13:46, Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear friends and colleagues, > > > > Please be informed that my book * A ?abda Reader: Language in Classical > Indian Thought* (Columbia University Press) has just come out: > > https://cup.columbia.edu/book/a-sabda-reader/9780231189408 > > > > Johannes Bronkhorst > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Mar 13 13:42:22 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 19 06:42:22 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???????????? ??????????? ????????? ???????? ? ??????????? ?????????????? ?????? ????? ??????? Thinking that it is Krishna, they [the cowherds] catch each other. They all have great joy, because there is no one who is not Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Wed Mar 13 17:00:50 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 19 18:00:50 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, You may view the image by clicking on the following link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hS_0yvAqsuD8pGR84ZRauEdDjlczd9nX/view?usp=sharing My question concerns the first initial in Roman script. The rest is clear to me. Also, if it seems that it is not P./B. R. Puru??ttama N?ya?u, then I would be happy to receive any other suggestions. Many Thanks, Victor On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:02 PM victor davella wrote: > Dear all, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the > first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the > autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, > but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the > letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his > lifespan (1901-1976). > > Many Thanks, > > Victor > > P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. > > [image: image.png] > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr Wed Mar 13 18:10:19 2019 From: Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr (KORN Agnes) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 19 18:10:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B846281E1E@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> I would read this as ?H. R.? Best, Agnes From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of victor davella via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 6:01 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] An Initial Dear all, You may view the image by clicking on the following link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hS_0yvAqsuD8pGR84ZRauEdDjlczd9nX/view?usp=sharing My question concerns the first initial in Roman script. The rest is clear to me. Also, if it seems that it is not P./B. R. Puru??ttama N?ya?u, then I would be happy to receive any other suggestions. Many Thanks, Victor On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:02 PM victor davella > wrote: Dear all, I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his lifespan (1901-1976). Many Thanks, Victor P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. [image.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 20:37:24 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 19 14:37:24 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Jyotirmanjari edition by Okuyama, part 2, needed Message-ID: N. Okuyama edited the available portions of the Sanskrit text of the Jyotirma?jar? by Abhay?karagupta in two installments. Some years ago I was able to get the first installment, published in Bunka, vol. 47, nos. 1-2, 1983, pp. 19-46. But I was never able to find the second installment, published in Tohoku Indogaku Shukyo Gakkai Ronshu, no. 13, 1986, pp. 108-191. For holdings in North America, OCLC shows only the Harvard Yenching Library, and the Harvard Hollis catalogue shows their holdings as only nos. 1-2, 1968-1968. The title of the article is apparently, "Jyotirma?jar? no kenkyu (II)." I would be very grateful to get a copy of this article. Thanks! Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 00:19:13 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 19 18:19:13 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Jyotirmanjari edition by Okuyama, part 2, needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks to Harunaga Isaacson for sending me this article. I had tried to find it for a long time, and I really appreciate this. With thanks and best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:37 PM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > N. Okuyama edited the available portions of the Sanskrit text of the > Jyotirma?jar? by Abhay?karagupta in two installments. Some years ago I > was able to get the first installment, published in Bunka, vol. 47, nos. > 1-2, 1983, pp. 19-46. But I was never able to find the second installment, > published in Tohoku Indogaku Shukyo Gakkai Ronshu, no. 13, 1986, pp. > 108-191. For holdings in North America, OCLC shows only the Harvard > Yenching Library, and the Harvard Hollis catalogue shows their holdings as > only nos. 1-2, 1968-1968. The title of the article is apparently, "Jyotirma?jar? > no kenkyu (II)." I would be very grateful to get a copy of this article. > Thanks! > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Thu Mar 14 10:49:53 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 19 11:49:53 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, Thank you very much for your replies. I too had read and H., but hoped that I could still link the name with the more well-known Puru??ttama N?ya?u. I will keep on searching. Many Thanks, Victor On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:02 PM victor davella wrote: > Dear all, > > I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the > first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the > autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, > but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the > letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his > lifespan (1901-1976). > > Many Thanks, > > Victor > > P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. > > [image: image.png] > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Mar 14 15:51:34 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 19 08:51:34 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: My Krishna verse on my birthday ?????? ???? ?????? ???: ?????? ? ???? ??????? ? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? O Krishna, though I have grown in age, the childishness in my mind does not go away. Even though my legs are not able, you still make me dance. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Mar 14 19:06:32 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 19 14:06:32 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] An Initial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Victor, Have you explored if the first initial represents either cursive ?Th? (may be as an abbreviation of ?Thiru?) or the Tamil character ???? written in a cursive form, possibly written in a different way from the first letter of the name possibly because it is an initial? If you have other letters by him or to him, you can test these possibilities. From the Tamil Wikipedia page (https://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/??._???._????????????), based on his work history, it is possible he was in Chidambaram before 1935. Regards, Palaniappan ? From: INDOLOGY on behalf of victor davella via INDOLOGY Reply-To: victor davella Date: Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 5:50 AM To: Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] An Initial Dear all, Thank you very much for your replies. I too had read and H., but hoped that I could still link the name with the more well-known Puru??ttama N?ya?u. I will keep on searching. Many Thanks, Victor On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 7:02 PM victor davella wrote: Dear all, I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with the reading of the first initial found in the image below. I would like this to be the autograph of Pu. R?. Puru?ottama N?ya?u, a renowned ?r?-Vai??ava scholar, but I find it difficult to see a P or a B (as it is sometimes given) in the letter as written. The date, 10/4/(19)28 falls comfortably within his lifespan (1901-1976). Many Thanks, Victor P.S. Please let me know if the image has not come through. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Fri Mar 15 12:06:39 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 12:06:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Adhyash. Message-ID: <20190315120639.20375.qmail@f4mail-235-174.rediffmail.com> Respected Scholars, Adhyash happens to be a significant concept in Vedanta philosophy.So far,"Superimposition" is the only word which I came across,as a literal translation of Adhyash in English.Is there any other word ,in the philosophical context,which tantamounts to Adhyash?    Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 15 13:30:49 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 06:30:49 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= Message-ID: ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my friends. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 14:14:20 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 15:14:20 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any sloka is well known. Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung or chanted? Any sample accessible online? Best regards, Jan Houben On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? > ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? > In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without any > effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my > friends. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 15 14:32:08 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 07:32:08 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Jan, Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Madhav, > Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic > flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. > The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any > sloka is well known. > Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung or > chanted? Any sample accessible online? > Best regards, > Jan Houben > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? >> ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? >> In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without any >> effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my >> friends. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 15:23:17 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 09:23:17 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, Your recording did not come through. I, too, would be anxious to hear it. While writing, I have long been wanting to say how much I have benefited from your verses. It is very rare that we can know for sure what a writing in Sanskrit means, directly from the author. This is especially so for metrical verses. Your accompanying English translations are really helpful. I look forward to my daily Sanskrit lessons from you, in the form of your lovely verses. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:33 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Hello Jan, > > Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style > of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by > a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed > 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From e.demichelis at ymail.com Fri Mar 15 16:14:13 2019 From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 16:14:13 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1662197014.9268082.1552666453538@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Madhav, I would also be very interested to hear the audio recording of the verse(s).... Thank you for sharing it if possible. With best regards, Elizabeth De Michelis(Independent scholar) On Friday, 15 March 2019, 16:24:02 CET, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Madhav, Your recording did not come through. I, too, would be anxious to hear it. While writing, I have long been wanting to say how much I have benefited from your verses. It is very rare that we can know for sure what a writing in Sanskrit means, directly from the author. This is especially so for metrical verses. Your accompanying English translations are really helpful. I look forward to my daily Sanskrit lessons from you, in the form of your lovely verses. Best regards, David ReigleColorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:33 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Hello Jan, ? ? ?Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?.? This is the general style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra.? This meter was made popular in Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period.? He composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?.?? Madhav Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:17:52 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 12:17:52 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, I would like to second David Reigle's remarks about your verses. I also look forward to these "daily sanskrit lessons". Its almost as if they were designed for that purpose. For example useful to me because there are "themes" in the verses, vocabulary many times is repeated for a few consecutive verses recording it in your memory. Even grammatical themes are sometimes repeated. For example awhile back there was the locative absolute construction used for three or four consecutive verses. In verse 677, in a single verse there was both an imperative for a positive command and an augmentless aorist with mA for a negative command, etc. etc. Many thanks and happy birthday.. Harry Spier On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 11:24 AM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > Your recording did not come through. I, too, would be anxious to hear it. > > While writing, I have long been wanting to say how much I have benefited > from your verses. It is very rare that we can know for sure what a writing > in Sanskrit means, directly from the author. This is especially so for > metrical verses. Your accompanying English translations are really helpful. > I look forward to my daily Sanskrit lessons from you, in the form of your > lovely verses. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:33 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Hello Jan, >> >> Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style >> of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by >> a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed >> 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 15 16:32:09 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 09:32:09 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks David, Harry, Jan and several others who have expressed their appreciation of my Krishna verses. As I told somebody, P??ini has taken a back seat and Krishna is in the driver's seat in my mind. Especially, as these verses come effortlessly to my mind, sometimes in the middle of the night, and I get up and write them down and go back to sleep. Again thanks for your appreciation. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 9:18 AM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > I would like to second David Reigle's remarks about your verses. I also > look forward to these "daily sanskrit lessons". Its almost as if they were > designed for that purpose. For example useful to me because there are > "themes" in the verses, vocabulary many times is repeated for a few > consecutive verses recording it in your memory. Even grammatical themes > are sometimes repeated. For example awhile back there was the locative > absolute construction used for three or four consecutive verses. In verse > 677, in a single verse there was both an imperative for a positive command > and an augmentless aorist with mA for a negative command, etc. etc. > > Many thanks and happy birthday.. > Harry Spier > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 11:24 AM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Madhav, >> >> Your recording did not come through. I, too, would be anxious to hear it. >> >> While writing, I have long been wanting to say how much I have benefited >> from your verses. It is very rare that we can know for sure what a writing >> in Sanskrit means, directly from the author. This is especially so for >> metrical verses. Your accompanying English translations are really helpful. >> I look forward to my daily Sanskrit lessons from you, in the form of your >> lovely verses. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:33 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Hello Jan, >>> >>> Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general >>> style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in >>> Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He >>> composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi >>> using ?ry?. >>> >>> Madhav >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:57:57 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 17:57:57 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so much! On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 15:32, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Hello Jan, > > Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style > of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by > a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed > 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >> Dear Madhav, >> Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic >> flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. >> The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any >> sloka is well known. >> Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung or >> chanted? Any sample accessible online? >> Best regards, >> Jan Houben >> >> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? >>> ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? >>> In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without >>> any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my >>> friends. >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >> >> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * >> >> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 17:05:30 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 18:05:30 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At my side I could easily download (95k) and hear the recording (but I often have difficulty to get other attachments at Indology-messages which others seem to get without problems). J.H. On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 17:57, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Thanks so much! > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 15:32, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> Hello Jan, >> >> Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style >> of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by >> a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed >> 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Madhav, >>> Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic >>> flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. >>> The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any >>> sloka is well known. >>> Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung >>> or chanted? Any sample accessible online? >>> Best regards, >>> Jan Houben >>> >>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? >>>> ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? >>>> In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without >>>> any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my >>>> friends. >>>> >>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>> Professor Emeritus >>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>> University of Michigan >>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>> >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>> >>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>> >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>> >>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * >>> >>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * >>> >>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> * >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 20:23:12 2019 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 16:23:12 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <08FFEE54-CF82-422B-B8A7-31C63F791947@gmail.com> I also often have problems receiving attachments in Indology messages. In this case I didn?t even receive the email with the recording. I too would be interested in hearing it. And like others, I second what David wrote. It is fascinating and instructive to see your English translation alongside the Sanskrit for many reasons, including your word choices in both languages. Dan > On Mar 15, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY wrote: > > At my side I could easily download (95k) and hear the recording (but I often have difficulty to get other attachments at Indology-messages which others seem to get without problems). > J.H. > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 17:57, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > Thanks so much! > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 15:32, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > Hello Jan, > > Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > Dear Madhav, > Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. > The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any sloka is well known. > Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung or chanted? Any sample accessible online? > Best regards, > Jan Houben > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: > ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? > ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? > In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my friends. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > -- > Jan E.M. Houben > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > Sciences historiques et philologiques > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 00:19:34 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 20:19:34 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: <08FFEE54-CF82-422B-B8A7-31C63F791947@gmail.com> Message-ID: I noticed that everyone who said they didn't get the attachment is a gmail account user (myself included). Is it just gmail users who have trouble receiving indology attachments.. Did any gmail users get the attachment? Harry Spier On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:08 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I also often have problems receiving attachments in Indology messages. In > this case I didn?t even receive the email with the recording. I too would > be interested in hearing it. And like others, I second what David wrote. It > is fascinating and instructive to see your English translation alongside > the Sanskrit for many reasons, including your word choices in both > languages. > > Dan > > On Mar 15, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > At my side I could easily download (95k) and hear the recording (but I > often have difficulty to get other attachments at Indology-messages which > others seem to get without problems). > J.H. > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 17:57, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > >> Thanks so much! >> >> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 15:32, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >> >>> Hello Jan, >>> >>> Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general >>> style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in >>> Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He >>> composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi >>> using ?ry?. >>> >>> Madhav >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Madhav, >>>> Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic >>>> flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. >>>> The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any >>>> sloka is well known. >>>> Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung >>>> or chanted? Any sample accessible online? >>>> Best regards, >>>> Jan Houben >>>> >>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? >>>>> ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? >>>>> In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without >>>>> any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my >>>>> friends. >>>>> >>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>>> Professor Emeritus >>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>>> University of Michigan >>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * >>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> * >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Sat Mar 16 00:33:57 2019 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 19 20:33:57 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am a gmail user (through forwarding) and I never receive the attachments on the forum. Best, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:20 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I noticed that everyone who said they didn't get the attachment is a gmail > account user (myself included). Is it just gmail users who have trouble > receiving indology attachments.. Did any gmail users get the attachment? > Harry Spier > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:08 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> I also often have problems receiving attachments in Indology messages. In >> this case I didn?t even receive the email with the recording. I too would >> be interested in hearing it. And like others, I second what David wrote. It >> is fascinating and instructive to see your English translation alongside >> the Sanskrit for many reasons, including your word choices in both >> languages. >> >> Dan >> >> On Mar 15, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> At my side I could easily download (95k) and hear the recording (but I >> often have difficulty to get other attachments at Indology-messages which >> others seem to get without problems). >> J.H. >> >> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 17:57, Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks so much! >>> >>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 15:32, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Jan, >>>> >>>> Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general >>>> style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in >>>> Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He >>>> composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi >>>> using ?ry?. >>>> >>>> Madhav >>>> >>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>> Professor Emeritus >>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>> University of Michigan >>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Madhav, >>>>> Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic >>>>> flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. >>>>> The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any >>>>> sloka is well known. >>>>> Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung >>>>> or chanted? Any sample accessible online? >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Jan Houben >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? >>>>>> ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? >>>>>> In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without >>>>>> any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my >>>>>> friends. >>>>>> >>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>>>> Professor Emeritus >>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>>>> University of Michigan >>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) >>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * >>>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * >>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>> * >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Sat Mar 16 10:19:56 2019 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 19 10:19:56 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9F238DA0-4FD6-4EAD-A3A9-B62ACD49F2E2@cardiff.ac.uk> I am not a gmail user and also do not receive attachments. Geoffrey On 16 Mar 2019, at 11:33, Aleksandar Uskokov via INDOLOGY > wrote: I am a gmail user (through forwarding) and I never receive the attachments on the forum. Best, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:20 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY > wrote: I noticed that everyone who said they didn't get the attachment is a gmail account user (myself included). Is it just gmail users who have trouble receiving indology attachments.. Did any gmail users get the attachment? Harry Spier On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 8:08 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: I also often have problems receiving attachments in Indology messages. In this case I didn?t even receive the email with the recording. I too would be interested in hearing it. And like others, I second what David wrote. It is fascinating and instructive to see your English translation alongside the Sanskrit for many reasons, including your word choices in both languages. Dan On Mar 15, 2019, at 1:05 PM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY > wrote: At my side I could easily download (95k) and hear the recording (but I often have difficulty to get other attachments at Indology-messages which others seem to get without problems). J.H. On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 17:57, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: Thanks so much! On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 15:32, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Hello Jan, Here is my recording of my verse in ?ry?. This is the general style of reciting ?ry? in Maharashtra. This meter was made popular in Marathi by a poet named Moropant [May?rakavi] during the Peshwa period. He composed 108 different R?m?ya?as, and an entire Mah?bh?rata in Marathi using ?ry?. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:15 AM Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: Dear Madhav, Happy birthday, and nice to see how not only time but also your poetic flow is unstoppable... and nice to see a change of metre. The "sing-song" melody normally superimposed and superimposable on any sloka is well known. Does anyone know how a verse in the Aaryaa meter is traditionally sung or chanted? Any sample accessible online? Best regards, Jan Houben On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 14:32, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????????? ? ??????????? ?????????????? ????? ????? ?? In the unstoppable course of time, the age goes on increasing without any effort. However, the joy in my mind increased with the wishes from my friends. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jan E.M. Houben Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) Sciences historiques et philologiques 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=01%7C01%7CSamuelG%40cardiff.ac.uk%7Ce32eaba460af43a45c1f08d6a9a734e5%7Cbdb74b3095684856bdbf06759778fcbc%7C1&sdata=jLiqBo1u9qxhjH7NW11r2xiS7Wa2eeE0ohdWL6gKREY%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Mar 16 13:54:15 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 19 06:54:15 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????????? ???????????: ????????????? ??????????: ? ??????????? ?????????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? The cowgirls of Vraja, thinking that it is Krishna, embrace trees. They all have great joy, because there is nothing that is not Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it Sat Mar 16 17:16:11 2019 From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 19 18:16:11 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Captain G.T. Marshall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2BD066E7-76D7-4082-A247-54DCD37827AB@fastwebnet.it> Dear all, I am looking for the basic information about the life and career of Captain G.T. Marshall, who served as the secretary of the College of Fort William from 1838 to 1852. Through the HathiTrust DL and Google books, I can see that what I need is printed in four pages (pp. 58, 102-103, 122) of a volume by Sisir Kumar Das, Sahibs and munshis. An account of the College of Fort William (Calcutta: Orion Publications, 1978). Unfortuantely, the book is not owned by any Italian library. Is there someone so kind as to send me pictures of those pages? Thank you very much in advance for your help. Best wishes, Marco --- Marco Franceschini ??????????? Senior Assistant Professor University of Bologna Department of History and Cultures marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it https://www.unibo.it/sitoweb/marco.franceschini3/en http://unibo.academia.edu/MarcoFranceschini www.associazioneitalianadistudisanscriti.org --- > Il giorno 09 mar 2019, alle ore 17:19, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY ha scritto: > > Here a scan of my xerox, > Best wishes, > Christophe > >> Le 8 mars 2019 ? 15:32, Robert Leach via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I'd be very grateful if anyone could provide me with a soft copy of this article by Renou, found in Journal Asiatique vol. 231 (1939), pp. 481-504 (this particular volume seems not to be available online). >> >> Many thanks in advance, >> >> Robert >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Mar 17 13:34:15 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 19 06:34:15 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????????? ???????????? ??????? ? ?????????????? ??? ????? ??????????: ??? ?? ??????? O Krishna, our eyes are covered with ignorance. Please tell us how can we catch you while we are wandering. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 19:10:15 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 19 20:10:15 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi Message-ID: <2b220a7b-dfed-8b8b-b76e-fa1d7a32feb1@gmail.com> I have a question for the vaiy?kara?as among us (who may find it very basic, in which case I apologize in advance): In the /T?jikayogasudh?nidhi /of Y?davas?ri (fl. possibly early 17th century, possibly in or near Gujarat) there occurs the following stanza (12.15), the form of which is corroborated by several independent witnesses: janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | tena v? _sahita asya_ ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || (As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the house in which the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity is [placed] with excellent strength in the nativity is aspected or joined by that [ruler, there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house]: for example, [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year, there will be pleasures of the body.') From the context, the underlined phrase clearly stands for sahite + asya, with e > a. While this is standard sandhi before other vowels, I have never come across it before a. Is there a traditional rule that allows for? this? Best wishes, Martin Gansten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Mon Mar 18 03:44:50 2019 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 03:44:50 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Astronomical question Message-ID: Dear friends, I received this from Simon Burke, a PhD student at ANU. Can anyone help him? Please respond directly to Simon at: simonlrburke at gmail.com --- I am working on a Medieval Arabic text. At one point in this text I suspect a Sanskrit word transliterated into Arabic letters is being used. In the context of discussing the eclipse of the sun as being the conjunction of the sun and moon at a node the author clarifies the Arabic term for node by giving the Turkish word for node and then another word for node apparently of Indian origin: nubhar (?????). If it is not burdensome I would ask if you would be able to confirm to me if nubhar (?????) has a resemblance to a Sanskrit (or other Indian language) word for a "node" and if so: what is that word? --- [cid:e88926b1-85ae-4c4f-91aa-276c7baf26d2] McComas Taylor Associate Professor Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University WSC Website| McC Website Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 04:12:42 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 19 22:12:42 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Discarded_email_attachments_(Re:__=C4=80ry=C4=81_verse)?= In-Reply-To: <9F238DA0-4FD6-4EAD-A3A9-B62ACD49F2E2@cardiff.ac.uk> Message-ID: I don't understand this issue myself. I didn't get Madhav's recording myself (gmail user). But the pattern of who does and who doesn't get the attachments is not obvious. The Mailman software uses the following rules for attachments: Policies concerning the content of list traffic. Content filtering works like this: when a message is received by the list and you have enabled content filtering, the individual attachments are first compared to the * filter types.* If the attachment type matches an entry in the filter types, it is discarded. Then, if there are *pass types* defined, any attachment type that does *not* match a pass type is also discarded. If there are no pass types defined, this check is skipped. After this initial filtering, any multipart attachments that are empty are removed. If the outer message is left empty after this filtering, then the whole message is discarded. Then, each multipart/alternative section will be replaced by just the first alternative that is non-empty after filtering if *collapse_alternatives* is enabled. Finally, any text/html parts that are left in the message may be converted to text/plain if *convert_html_to_plaintext* is enabled and the site is configured to allow these conversions. - filter types: none, so nothing should ever be discarded by this criterion. - pass types are as follow, and should cover most types of file that people want to attach: multipart text/plain text/html text/xml application/pgp-signature message/rfc822 image/jpeg image/pjpeg application/pdf image/gif image/tiff application/msword application/x-dvi application/postscript application/x-tex application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text application/x-vnd.oasis.opendocument.text - Files with the following extensions are removed: exe bat cmd com pif scr vbs cpl - collapse_alternatives is set to "no" - *convert_html_to_plaintext* is set to "no" Now, mp3 files are not included in the pass types. That would, I think, explain why Mailman didn't forward Madhav's voice recording. And yet some people received it. That's baffling. I've now added audio/mpeg to the "pass types", so mp3s should get through in future. Also audio/ogg. I haven't added /wav files because they are typically unreasonably huge. Dominik Wujastyk, for the INDOLOGY committee. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 07:42:46 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 08:42:46 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi /e + a > a a/ is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: > I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come > across a traditional rule to deal with this.? I wonder how hybrid this > text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular > passage.? One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed > pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and > neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya."? The meter > does seem to work with "sahita asya".? The last syllable of "sahita" > needs to be metrically light.? So I suppose some sort of metrical > compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity.? Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule /e + a > e [']/. Thanks again, Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch Mon Mar 18 08:06:28 2019 From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 08:06:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The ?gveda has metrically required -a+a- for -o- or -o+a-. This can be justified by certain P??inian rules, as I showed long ago (?The orthoepic diaskeuasis of the ?gveda and the date of P??ini?, IIJ 23, 1981, 83-95). I do not know whether this observation has any relevance for the present issue. Johannes Bronkhorst On 18 Mar 2019, at 08:42, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY > wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pf8 at soas.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 08:44:57 2019 From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 08:44:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] News from SOAS Jaina Studies Message-ID: Jaina Studies - Newsletter of the CoJS Vol. 14 https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/newsletter/ Booklaunch 22 March https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/22mar2019-book-launch-contributions-to-jaina-studies-jaina-schools--sects-and-askese-und-devotion-da.html Workshop 22-23 March https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/ -- Dr Peter Fl?gel Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies Department of History, Religions and Philosophies School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Mar 18 13:06:00 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 06:06:00 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????? ? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????????? ???? ??????? Quickly remove the covering from my eyes today, so that I can catch you in your game. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 19:24:31 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 15:24:31 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their > (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi *e + a > a > a* is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: > > I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come > across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text > is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. > One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of > "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the > regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita > asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I > suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this > irregularity. Just a thought. > > > The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in > perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of > metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I > have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting > the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. > > Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be > difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard > sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the > impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in > this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule *e > + a > e [']*. > > Thanks again, > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Mar 18 20:05:54 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 13:05:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term *avagraha *is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a *m?tr? *to this type of *avagraha*. The written sign of *avagraha *(?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term *avagraha *and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? > Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is > there a slight pause for the avagraha? > > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their >> (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi *e + a > a >> a* is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: >> >> I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come >> across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text >> is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. >> One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of >> "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the >> regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita >> asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I >> suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this >> irregularity. Just a thought. >> >> >> The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in >> perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of >> metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I >> have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting >> the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. >> >> Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be >> difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard >> sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the >> impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in >> this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule *e >> + a > e [']*. >> >> Thanks again, >> Martin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 20:16:21 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 16:16:21 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= Message-ID: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Mar 18 20:24:12 2019 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 20:24:12 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <11CE35AB-5A11-41BC-983B-BF5EB0A2436C@illinois.edu> It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 20:28:58 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 16:28:58 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <11CE35AB-5A11-41BC-983B-BF5EB0A2436C@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear list members, > > What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example > : > > ekadant?ya vidmahe > > vakratu???ya dh?mahi > > tan no dant? pracoday?t > > > Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar > section 1043 dh?ray?t > > or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative > precative? > > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gerard.Huet at inria.fr Mon Mar 18 21:24:04 2019 From: Gerard.Huet at inria.fr (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 22:24:04 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9E77F2F2-5235-4BE8-9993-BEC406E2C449@inria.fr> Hello Harry In my morphological generator, this is tagged active benedictive: { ben. ac. sg. 3 }[pra -cud ]? <> Cf here . Press on the red rectangle. Whitney?837 calls it active precative, a variant terminology. But he analyses it as an optative mode of the root aorist and claims Vedic middle forms. G?rard > Le 18 mars 2019 ? 21:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > Dear list members, > > What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : > ekadant?ya vidmahe > vakratu???ya dh?mahi > tan no dant? pracoday?t > > Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t > or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 21:30:10 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 19 17:30:10 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <9E77F2F2-5235-4BE8-9993-BEC406E2C449@inria.fr> Message-ID: Thank you Gerard. Very impressive!! On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:24 PM G?rard Huet wrote: > Hello Harry > > In my morphological generator, this is tagged active benedictive: > > { ben. ac. sg. 3 }[*pra* - > *cud* ] > > Cf here > . > Press on the red rectangle. > > Whitney?837 calls it active precative, a variant terminology. But he > analyses it as an optative mode of the root aorist and claims Vedic middle > forms. > > G?rard > > > Le 18 mars 2019 ? 21:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear list members, > > What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example > : > > ekadant?ya vidmahe > > vakratu???ya dh?mahi > > tan no dant? pracoday?t > > > Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar > section 1043 dh?ray?t > > or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative > precative? > > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 00:29:14 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 05:59:14 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Harry, > > You have raised an interesting question. The term *avagraha *is > used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause > between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the > ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: > ???:) assign the duration of a *m?tr? *to this type of *avagraha*. The > written sign of *avagraha *(?) in later times got extended to cases like > ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in > any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in > recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the > meters. How, when and why the term *avagraha *and the written sign (?) > got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic > value as far as I know. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? >> Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is >> there a slight pause for the avagraha? >> >> Harry Spier >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their >>> (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi *e + a > >>> a a* is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: >>> >>> I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come >>> across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text >>> is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. >>> One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of >>> "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the >>> regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita >>> asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I >>> suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this >>> irregularity. Just a thought. >>> >>> >>> The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in >>> perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of >>> metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I >>> have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting >>> the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. >>> >>> Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't >>> be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and >>> standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with >>> the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in >>> this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule *e >>> + a > e [']*. >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> Martin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:10:35 2019 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 12:10:35 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of *avagraha* in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie , p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > This avagrahava is very very modern. > In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? > ????????? ?????? ????? > ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? > And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. > For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? > And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 > years back. Even he writes such. > So no difference in pronunciation. > KP > > On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Harry, >> >> You have raised an interesting question. The term *avagraha *is >> used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause >> between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the >> ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: >> ???:) assign the duration of a *m?tr? *to this type of *avagraha*. The >> written sign of *avagraha *(?) in later times got extended to cases like >> ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in >> any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in >> recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the >> meters. How, when and why the term *avagraha *and the written sign (?) >> got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic >> value as far as I know. >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? >>> Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is >>> there a slight pause for the avagraha? >>> >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their >>>> (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi *e + a > >>>> a a* is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: >>>> >>>> I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come >>>> across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text >>>> is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. >>>> One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of >>>> "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the >>>> regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita >>>> asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I >>>> suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this >>>> irregularity. Just a thought. >>>> >>>> >>>> The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in >>>> perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of >>>> metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I >>>> have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting >>>> the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. >>>> >>>> Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't >>>> be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and >>>> standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with >>>> the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in >>>> this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule *e >>>> + a > e [']*. >>>> >>>> Thanks again, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:34:03 2019 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 11:34:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA Message-ID: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:56:36 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 17:26:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Krishnaprasad, > > It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of > *avagraha* in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the > oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of > a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische > Palaeographie > , p. 86). > This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. > > > > Best, > > > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> This avagrahava is very very modern. >> In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? >> ????????? ?????? ????? >> ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? >> And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. >> For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? >> And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 >> years back. Even he writes such. >> So no difference in pronunciation. >> KP >> >> On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Harry, >>> >>> You have raised an interesting question. The term *avagraha *is >>> used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause >>> between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the >>> ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: >>> ???:) assign the duration of a *m?tr? *to this type of *avagraha*. The >>> written sign of *avagraha *(?) in later times got extended to cases >>> like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension >>> in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause >>> in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with >>> the meters. How, when and why the term *avagraha *and the written sign >>> (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no >>> phonetic value as far as I know. >>> >>> Madhav >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? >>>> Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is >>>> there a slight pause for the avagraha? >>>> >>>> Harry Spier >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their >>>>> (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi *e + a >>>>> > a a* is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come >>>>> across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text >>>>> is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. >>>>> One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of >>>>> "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the >>>>> regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita >>>>> asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I >>>>> suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this >>>>> irregularity. Just a thought. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in >>>>> perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of >>>>> metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I >>>>> have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting >>>>> the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. >>>>> >>>>> Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't >>>>> be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and >>>>> standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with >>>>> the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in >>>>> this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule *e >>>>> + a > e [']*. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:17:10 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:17:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <77CB4096-E6FA-48F8-B45D-1C74AA4F47BD@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:17:14 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:17:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <70B84C3B-3B81-4487-9756-0B007C9BC9F7@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:17:45 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:17:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <68B92738-0FC2-4DE2-AA78-884E6068406F@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:17:47 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:17:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5DFAF773-D4BB-42CB-BDA1-014A4F698CF1@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:17:42 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:17:42 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <11CE35AB-5A11-41BC-983B-BF5EB0A2436C@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <148C9B97-3116-43B9-B1EC-48D5A669EAAB@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:17:38 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:17:38 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <426A781E-E3EA-4060-98FA-F81173E81933@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:18:54 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:18:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7403EC01-445E-4398-AC80-F5B7DF493167@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:18:56 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:18:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6544E03D-D346-4258-8E45-C9AC4BDEF586@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:18:56 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:18:56 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:36 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <70B84C3B-3B81-4487-9756-0B007C9BC9F7@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:41 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:41 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <68B92738-0FC2-4DE2-AA78-884E6068406F@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <8155A808-39AE-4104-B757-8963A0AD1895@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:54 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <5DFAF773-D4BB-42CB-BDA1-014A4F698CF1@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:54 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <58F41D6F-B596-4AD4-AE0F-473709F1F551@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:55 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:55 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <426A781E-E3EA-4060-98FA-F81173E81933@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <450FDFA1-CEDF-474E-B778-E20D61AEFA50@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:57 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <148C9B97-3116-43B9-B1EC-48D5A669EAAB@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:22:57 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:22:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <413D77D9-86E4-402F-AFB5-3203BF081BDF@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:06 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:06 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <48F2A9FD-8823-4DEA-9680-EAAEC9D52C72@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:08 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: <7403EC01-445E-4398-AC80-F5B7DF493167@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:19 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <6544E03D-D346-4258-8E45-C9AC4BDEF586@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <6EB83BEC-2E87-4CDF-BCDA-C1909AD7B17C@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:20 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:20 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <79077A92-B3C2-4088-92AE-517F75FD8954@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:24 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:24 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <11CE35AB-5A11-41BC-983B-BF5EB0A2436C@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <9D4985C4-95E3-4B10-A957-0386C0250305@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:27 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <152A866E-6F33-46D9-A8EF-02560B7F14B8@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:23:28 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:23:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1AA5922F-087D-40A5-A58F-727FA3A7CD49@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:24:33 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:24:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:24:36 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:24:36 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:24:36 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:24:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20B31794-7749-4219-A45F-E9CC64393651@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:31:49 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:31:49 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <9D4985C4-95E3-4B10-A957-0386C0250305@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <9311A412-B871-44DB-A1A9-BA202704DF3C@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:31:59 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:31:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <152A866E-6F33-46D9-A8EF-02560B7F14B8@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3002E35F-3D45-49F3-A854-B636863631C1@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:01 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <68B92738-0FC2-4DE2-AA78-884E6068406F@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:03 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <1AA5922F-087D-40A5-A58F-727FA3A7CD49@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <2BAEFD86-5303-4730-B8EF-DCAC509BD802@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:08 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <5DFAF773-D4BB-42CB-BDA1-014A4F698CF1@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <92AFF169-14F9-49EA-BB3C-08636986D0C5@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:31:56 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:31:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <70B84C3B-3B81-4487-9756-0B007C9BC9F7@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1486B95C-852F-4248-AFC0-D1E41402D044@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:10 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:10 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <426A781E-E3EA-4060-98FA-F81173E81933@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:13 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <20B31794-7749-4219-A45F-E9CC64393651@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:09 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:11 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:11 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:12 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:12 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <148C9B97-3116-43B9-B1EC-48D5A669EAAB@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:12 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9560BEF8-EB2A-461B-9C40-B0322AD4A089@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:09 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:22 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:22 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:32:24 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:32:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: <7403EC01-445E-4398-AC80-F5B7DF493167@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:19 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:19 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <9D4985C4-95E3-4B10-A957-0386C0250305@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <7D518DFD-9F48-42CB-BD7E-B3DA010CCEEC@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:22 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <70B84C3B-3B81-4487-9756-0B007C9BC9F7@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <18EBEBF6-C61F-4FCE-AFFA-7041777CCAAC@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:26 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <152A866E-6F33-46D9-A8EF-02560B7F14B8@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:30 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <68B92738-0FC2-4DE2-AA78-884E6068406F@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <36CADF2F-20FE-4127-AA95-574035BC3A21@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:33 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <1AA5922F-087D-40A5-A58F-727FA3A7CD49@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:03 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:03 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:46 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <5DFAF773-D4BB-42CB-BDA1-014A4F698CF1@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <36A0F87F-7266-425C-A589-F6062887E618@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:47 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5FD8F083-CA83-4596-B4C2-B8F11D453DAB@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:49 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:49 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <426A781E-E3EA-4060-98FA-F81173E81933@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:06 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: <7403EC01-445E-4398-AC80-F5B7DF493167@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <5EDE10FF-5A91-46F0-BC24-9FAB8F40DF63@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:15 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:15 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <9311A412-B871-44DB-A1A9-BA202704DF3C@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:19 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6EF4D9BF-4817-4A68-A799-96332A8F04DF@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:47 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <643A9F1D-E34A-47FC-84B8-1190BBFA0E84@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:50 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:50 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <54A45CA2-4635-4034-8ACB-A47CE3E3CD2A@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:53 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:53 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <148C9B97-3116-43B9-B1EC-48D5A669EAAB@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <2033F7AE-9F63-463E-9E4A-584F9EA22D10@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:44 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <222E64D9-3998-4B49-989A-BFDB6BA8B956@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:53 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:36:54 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:36:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <20B31794-7749-4219-A45F-E9CC64393651@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <2D0731A2-5153-403E-BB82-02C528C44C3B@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:04 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <3002E35F-3D45-49F3-A854-B636863631C1@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <8A4AF1B1-82FB-4016-A955-4409328B926B@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:51 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F3B1F33-DCBB-4BB3-8D0D-0DEFCCF30F0C@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:17 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <6544E03D-D346-4258-8E45-C9AC4BDEF586@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <2E6D6EE0-40A8-44E4-A890-652D963C28CE@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:04 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:04 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:20 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:20 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <118D7D89-FB5B-4C42-A556-E62B386D00B3@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:19 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <25C80818-25B3-44D1-98B8-6C9EF1109119@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:20 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <92AFF169-14F9-49EA-BB3C-08636986D0C5@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <7BE08EE7-1E5E-47F8-8D33-50461208DACE@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:24 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <8155A808-39AE-4104-B757-8963A0AD1895@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <690F721E-73A9-4246-BECD-E157AA8D1635@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:25 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:25 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <11CE35AB-5A11-41BC-983B-BF5EB0A2436C@illinois.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:25 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <1486B95C-852F-4248-AFC0-D1E41402D044@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <34384AA3-AFD9-4BA6-863E-0BFA5DE844C7@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:29 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <58F41D6F-B596-4AD4-AE0F-473709F1F551@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <1F0B2575-8B76-4995-A202-3E61CDA4618F@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:29 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:29 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8036832B-00B0-48E6-B2AB-886D5AB85049@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:31 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:31 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6F767126-40F5-42F1-981D-BC3C4F44029C@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:38 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:38 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9DE6CB5F-B131-4782-925A-4635EEEB8F5E@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:32 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:32 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <2BAEFD86-5303-4730-B8EF-DCAC509BD802@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:37:33 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:37:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4B29AE55-466D-4958-B761-AE62A8D19529@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:39 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:41 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:41 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:42 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <9560BEF8-EB2A-461B-9C40-B0322AD4A089@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <735CE86D-688B-4866-A1DD-1AAB8EA9E8C1@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:39:19 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:39:19 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <78B0B1AD-40FE-46DA-B09A-A9D06187B071@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:24 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:43 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5F3F224F-BBB1-4F96-B923-2ABBACABAD3D@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:47 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:38:48 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:38:48 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <450FDFA1-CEDF-474E-B778-E20D61AEFA50@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <07BD8FAB-99DE-4324-86B3-D1428D27A983@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:40:01 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:40:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <6EB83BEC-2E87-4CDF-BCDA-C1909AD7B17C@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. KP On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie, p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY : This avagrahava is very very modern. In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. So no difference in pronunciation. KP On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, wrote: Dear Harry, You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. Thanks again, Martin _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:40:02 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:40:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <304A7510-125D-4455-B2A0-595FC7FF7F8C@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear colleagues, The project DHARMA, The Domestication of "Hindu" Asceticism and the Religious Making of South and Southeast Asia (ERC-2018-SyG no. 809994), which brings together the CEIAS (UMR 8564, CNRS & EHESS), the EFEO (French School of Asian Studies), Humboldt University at Berlin and the University of Naples "L'Orientale", is looking to recruit three collaborators: 1 European Project Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2HkiMQZ 1 Visual Data Manager (two-year contract, renewable up to 2 times) See EFEO website: https://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=940 1 XML-TEI Data Manager (one-year contract, renewable up to 3 times) See the CNRS job portal: http://bit.ly/2Hv87D0. Direct link to the English version: https://emploi.cnrs.fr/Offres/CDD/UMR8564-EMMFRA-002/Default.aspx?lang=EN Please forward to potentially interested colleagues. Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:40:47 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:40:47 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <79077A92-B3C2-4088-92AE-517F75FD8954@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:40:47 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:40:47 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <81A5A78E-A458-4BE3-B320-2DB78EF37F14@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 18, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Thank you Hans, Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. Harry Spier On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: It?s a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) Cheers, Hans Henrich Hock On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear list members, What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : ekadant?ya vidmahe vakratu???ya dh?mahi tan no dant? pracoday?t Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? Thanks, Harry Spier _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:13 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 06:48:13 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ?????????????? ??????? O Krishna, My Friend, if I don't catch you, but if you catch me, what worry will remain for me after being caught by you? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:53 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:01 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <34384AA3-AFD9-4BA6-863E-0BFA5DE844C7@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <0941ECCB-DE45-4B1D-8440-37A03201D252@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:54 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <4B29AE55-466D-4958-B761-AE62A8D19529@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:02 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0E66B23C-1484-4D56-8958-92A1294B7275@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:54 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:54 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <8036832B-00B0-48E6-B2AB-886D5AB85049@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <571DE772-D9FA-4D1A-A745-677D7122C415@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:02 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <5F3F224F-BBB1-4F96-B923-2ABBACABAD3D@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:55 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:55 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <07BD8FAB-99DE-4324-86B3-D1428D27A983@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:03 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:03 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <81A5A78E-A458-4BE3-B320-2DB78EF37F14@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3ED8E9AD-198E-4142-B66A-668F031097AF@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:58 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:04 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:04 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <9DE6CB5F-B131-4782-925A-4635EEEB8F5E@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:57 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <1F0B2575-8B76-4995-A202-3E61CDA4618F@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3A570734-A6E9-4063-9A0D-C752B7A2EEF6@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:05 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:05 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: <78B0B1AD-40FE-46DA-B09A-A9D06187B071@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <03B94825-C91C-44E9-94CF-BDC096920BF2@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:48:59 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:48:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:06 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:05 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:05 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <53C034B7-2E91-4651-BB9A-48EFA4135FCD@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:06 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <735CE86D-688B-4866-A1DD-1AAB8EA9E8C1@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <9F49B8B0-F5CB-43B8-92C7-054F8AF42DE4@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:07 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] three vacancies in ERC project DHARMA In-Reply-To: <304A7510-125D-4455-B2A0-595FC7FF7F8C@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <89DC8E80-E95E-4410-B242-B327138A9F7B@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:07 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <6F767126-40F5-42F1-981D-BC3C4F44029C@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <066198E4-ADB1-48CC-A10B-925330D2E8E3@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 13:49:08 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 13:49:08 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6D30E6D3-251F-4668-B915-D0F7D0848DDD@austin.utexas.edu> I will be out of regular email access March 1?15. I will reply your email as soon as I can. On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Mar 19 14:01:49 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 14:01:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] SORRY Message-ID: Looks that my computer had gone mad!! I had it set for a holiday reply, but it seems to have sent multiple replies. I aplogize. Patrick From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 14:47:27 2019 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 14:47:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Can a moderator please block Patrick Olivelle until he fixes his auto-reply? In-Reply-To: <1802724551.7442455.1553006847947.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1802724551.7442455.1553006847947@mail.yahoo.com> Or remove him. We can always invite him back. Best, Dean aka Spam-a-lot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 23:12:45 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 00:12:45 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <2b220a7b-dfed-8b8b-b76e-fa1d7a32feb1@gmail.com> Message-ID: HOWEVER, if we accept the verse without emendation, should not we read it in the way the author KNEW that 99 percent of his contemporaneous readers would read it? The verse you quoted: janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | tena v? *sahita asya* ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || The translation you proposed (I supply the words on which each part is based, if I understand your analysis and interpretation correctly): *** As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the house in which (yadg?he) the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity (janmalagnapatir) is [placed] with excellent strength (uttamav?ryo) in the nativity is aspected (tatra ... d???e) or (v?) joined by that [ruler] (tena ... *sahite*), [there is] attainment (labdhis) of [the matter signified by] that [house] (asya): for example (tad yath?), [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year (abdatanau), there will be (sy?t) be pleasures of the body (a?gasukham).' *** Now, reading the verse ? if specialists familiar with the text agree there is no reason to propose any ad hoc emendation ? with similar conceptual interpretations BUT in the way the author KNEW that 99 percent of his contemporaneous readers would read it (and paying more attention to the two *ca*?s, and letting both *tatra* and *tena* refer anaphorically to *yadg**?* *he*) we get something that perhaps amounts to the same but is based on a different *anvaya*... : If in a house *(yadg?he)* in a nativity (janu?i) the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity (janmalagnapatir) is having excellent strength, *and* *[ca, extending the noun phrase] *is there *(tatra)* [in that house, positively] aspected, or if [the ruler...] is (if not placed in that house, at least) joined (*sahita**[?]*) with it *(tena)* [with the house], then *also [ca, perhaps referring to a statement in a previous verse, other conditions favouring labdhis?]* [there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house] (asya): for example (tad yath?), [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year (abdatanau), there will be (sy?t) pleasures of the body (a?gasukham). Bottom line: the use of square (and round) brackets is very much required when analysing Sanskrit especially in scientific or philosophical arguments -- as in the publication by Vincent Eltschinger, John Taber, Michael Torsten Much, Isabelle Rati? on *Dharmak?rti?s Theory of Exclusion* recently announced for "those among you who are still happy with square brackets". Best, Jan Houben On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 at 20:11, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I have a question for the vaiy?kara?as among us (who may find it very > basic, in which case I apologize in advance): > > In the *T?jikayogasudh?nidhi *of Y?davas?ri (fl. possibly early 17th > century, possibly in or near Gujarat) there occurs the following stanza > (12.15), the form of which is corroborated by several independent witnesses: > > janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | > tena v? *sahita asya* ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || > > (As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the house > in which the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity is [placed] with > excellent strength in the nativity is aspected or joined by that [ruler, > there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house]: for > example, [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year, there will be > pleasures of the body.') > > From the context, the underlined phrase clearly stands for sahite + asya, > with e > a. While this is standard sandhi before other vowels, I have never > come across it before a. Is there a traditional rule that allows for this? > > Best wishes, > Martin Gansten > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 00:48:51 2019 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 20:48:51 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7A9D5C69-49F3-4705-A48A-60A5269EF7C0@gmail.com> Dear Philipp and Krishnapad, Whitney remarks on page 9 of his Sanskrit Grammar: 16.a. A sign called the avagraha (separator) ? namely ? is occasionally used in the manuscripts, sometimes in the manner of a hyphen, sometimes as a mark of hiatus, sometimes to mark the elision of initial ? a after final ? e or ? o (135). In printed texts, especially European, it is ordinarily applied to the use last mentioned, and to that alone:thus ?????????? te?bruvan ?????????? so?brav?t for ?? ???????? te abruvan ?? ???????? so abrav?t. So even Whitney acknowledges that the manuscripts do not use avagraha? regularly. Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: v??numodeta. My own somewhat limited experience in reading manuscripts is that avagraha? rarely appears. I have seen it in devan?gar? and proto-mathil? or proto-b??gla manuscripts. I wonder if there are any studies about the use of avagraha? in manuscripts other than padap??ha? manuscripts. I have a sense that sometimes avagraha? is introduced into a manuscript copying tradition as a reader?s aid to interpretation.s Elliot > On Mar 19, 2019, at 7:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote > > Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas > I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. > KP > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Krishnaprasad, > It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie , p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. > > Best, > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY >: > This avagrahava is very very modern. > In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? > ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? > And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. > For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? > And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. > So no difference in pronunciation. > KP > > On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, > wrote: > Dear Harry, > > You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY > wrote: > How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? > Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? > > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: > >> I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. > > The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. > > Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. > > Thanks again, > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 01:20:55 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 21:20:55 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <7A9D5C69-49F3-4705-A48A-60A5269EF7C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 8:49 PM Elliot Stern via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > . Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an > instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: > v??numodeta. > > > Does that mean the practice in some modern printed editions of using avagraha and double avagrahas to indicate the assimilations of a+a, ?+?, ?+a etc. is actually quite old? Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 01:44:29 2019 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 21:44:29 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The copper plate inscription (single) avagraha? shows that even in the 9th century CE it could mark assimilation of at least ? + a. We cannot infer from this example, however, that double avagraha? marking assimilation is an ancient usage. The only uses of double avagraha? I?ve seen are in colonial period and later printed texts and in manuscripts copied from printed texts. These sources are not ?quite old?. > On Mar 19, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 8:49 PM Elliot Stern via INDOLOGY > wrote: > . Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: v??numodeta. > > > Does that mean the practice in some modern printed editions of using avagraha and double avagrahas to indicate the assimilations of a+a, ?+?, ?+a etc. is actually quite old? > > Harry Spier Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 02:55:34 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 08:25:34 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The double avagraha has 2 different methods followed by North Indian textsand South Indian texts. If anyone interested to know, I will write about double avagraha rules followed. KP On Wed 20 Mar, 2019, 8:10 AM Elliot Stern via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The copper plate inscription (single) avagraha? shows that even in the 9th > century CE it could mark assimilation of at least ? + a. We cannot infer > from this example, however, that double avagraha? marking assimilation is > an ancient usage. The only uses of double avagraha? I?ve seen are in > colonial period and later printed texts and in manuscripts copied from > printed texts. These sources are not ?quite old?. > > On Mar 19, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 8:49 PM Elliot Stern via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> . Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an >> instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: >> v??numodeta. >> >> >> Does that mean the practice in some modern printed editions of using > avagraha and double avagrahas to indicate the assimilations of a+a, ?+?, > ?+a etc. is actually quite old? > > Harry Spier > > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > emstern1948 at gmail.com > 267-240-8418 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Mar 20 04:03:09 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 19 21:03:09 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Irregularity of avagraha has sometimes confused great scholars like Whitney. While editing the ?aunak?y? Catur?dhy?yik? on the basis of a single available manuscript, Whitney found a rule ??????????? in the manuscript. The two previous rules described the prayatna in the pronunciation of spirants and vowels [??????? ?????? ?, ???????? ?]. These rules described the effort involved in these two types of sounds as *vivr?ta *"open". Then came the rule ??????????? which Whitney translated as "some consider it as forming a contact." He then commented that this view is "too obviously and grossly incorrect, one would think, to be worth quoting." Ever since I read Whitney's edition and his comments, I had a feeling that the original rule must have been ????????????. The prayatna of vowels is described as being ???????? in many sources, and the ?aunak?ya Catur?dhy?yik? was making a presentation of the *vivr?ta *view and the *aspr???a *view as alternatives. This was later justified by my examination of many other manuscripts that did use the sign of *avagraha*. So the reading in my edition reads ?????????????. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 6:45 PM Elliot Stern via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The copper plate inscription (single) avagraha? shows that even in the 9th > century CE it could mark assimilation of at least ? + a. We cannot infer > from this example, however, that double avagraha? marking assimilation is > an ancient usage. The only uses of double avagraha? I?ve seen are in > colonial period and later printed texts and in manuscripts copied from > printed texts. These sources are not ?quite old?. > > On Mar 19, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 8:49 PM Elliot Stern via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> . Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an >> instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: >> v??numodeta. >> >> >> Does that mean the practice in some modern printed editions of using > avagraha and double avagrahas to indicate the assimilations of a+a, ?+?, > ?+a etc. is actually quite old? > > Harry Spier > > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > emstern1948 at gmail.com > 267-240-8418 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 08:13:12 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 09:13:12 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <362321f1-0542-d35d-18a7-076a33b93657@gmail.com> Thank you for your suggestion and interest, Jan. It is very refreshing to be allowed to discuss the technical meaning of Sanskrit astrological texts for once. Your analysis of my translation is absolutely correct. However, I cannot help wondering how you know that the author 'KNEW that 99 percent of his contemporaneous readers' would understand /sahita asya/ to represent /sahita? asya/ rather than /sahite asya/ (for that, as I understand it, is the nub of your argument). But even granting for the sake of argument that this should be so, the sense of the verse still requires, in my view, that we side with the 1 percent. Your suggested translation has the ruler of the ascendant: > there (tatra) [in that house, positively] aspected, or if [the > ruler...] is (if not placed in that house, at least) joined > (sahita[?]) with it (tena) [with the house], That is a rather long translation of six short words (tatra ca d???e | tena v? sahita[?]), and it has the presumed logical subject of the clause jumping from the earlier nominative (-pati?) to the locative (d???e) and back again (sahita?). More importantly, though, it conveys no real meaning, for a planet being joined with a house means nothing more or less than the planet occupying the house. This is a matter not only of established meaning (r??hi), but of lack of alternatives: what else could it mean? So I cannot agree with your suggestion. Phrases meaning 'joined or aspected by' (often in compounds like yutek?ita, d???ayuk, etc.) are extremely common in astrological texts; the two typically go together and refer to the same subject (which may be a house, a planet, or some other point in the horoscope). To give just one example, consider the following stanza from the same work and chapter (12.47): sute sav?rye _?ubhayu?nir?k?ite_ sute?vare kendragate bal?nvite | tathaiva s?de sutasaukhyam ?rita? sut?tyaya? sy?d vipar?tage tath? || 'If the fifth house is strong, _joined or aspected by benefics_; if the ruler of the fifth house, endowed with strength, occupies an angle; and if the lot likewise [is strong and benefic], happiness from children is declared [as the result]. Likewise, if [all are] conversely situated, the death of a child will occur.' It thus seems more natural to me to take the /sahita/ in /d???e ... sahita asya/ to represent /sahite /(agreeing with /d???e/) than /sahita?/, even if we could find a translation to make sense of the latter alternative. Best wishes, Martin Den 2019-03-20 kl. 00:12, skrev Jan E.M. Houben: > > HOWEVER, if we accept the verse without emendation, should not we read > it in the way the author KNEW that 99 percent of his contemporaneous > readers would read it? > > > The verse you quoted: > > janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | > tena v? _sahita asya_?ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || > > The translation you proposed (I supply the words on which each part is > based, if I understand your analysis and interpretation correctly): > > *** > > As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: > > 'If the house in which (yadg?he) the ruler of the ascendant of the > nativity (janmalagnapatir) is [placed] with excellent strength > (uttamav?ryo) in the nativity is aspected (tatra ... d???e) or (v?) > joined by that [ruler] (tena ... *sahite*), [there is] attainment > (labdhis) of [the matter signified by] that [house] (asya): for > example (tad yath?), [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year > (abdatanau), there will be (sy?t) be pleasures of the body (a?gasukham).' > > *** > > Now, reading the verse ? if specialists familiar with the text agree > there is no reason to propose any ad hoc emendation ? with similar > conceptual interpretations BUT in the way the author KNEW that 99 > percent of his contemporaneous readers would read it (and paying more > attention to the two *ca*?s, and letting both *tatra* and *tena* refer > anaphorically to *yadg**?**he*) we get something that perhaps amounts > to the same but is based on a different /anvaya/... : > > If in a house *(yadg?he)* in a nativity (janu?i) the ruler of the > ascendant of the nativity (janmalagnapatir) is having excellent > strength, *and* *[ca, extending the noun phrase] *is there *(tatra)* > [in that house, positively] aspected, or if [the ruler...] is (if not > placed in that house, at least) joined (*sahita**[?]*) with it > *(tena)* [with the house], then *also [ca, perhaps referring to a > statement in a previous verse, other conditions favouring labdhis?]* > [there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house] > (asya): for example (tad yath?), [if it is placed] in the ascendant of > the year (abdatanau), there will be (sy?t) pleasures of the body > (a?gasukham). > > > Bottom line: the use of square (and round) brackets is very much > required when analysing Sanskrit especially in scientific or > philosophical arguments -- as in the publication by Vincent > Eltschinger, John Taber, Michael Torsten Much, Isabelle Rati? on > /Dharmak?rti?s Theory of Exclusion/?recently announced for "those > among you who are still happy with square brackets". > > > Best, > > Jan Houben > > > On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 at 20:11, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > I have a question for the vaiy?kara?as among us (who may find it > very basic, in which case I apologize in advance): > > In the /T?jikayogasudh?nidhi /of Y?davas?ri (fl. possibly early > 17th century, possibly in or near Gujarat) there occurs the > following stanza (12.15), the form of which is corroborated by > several independent witnesses: > > janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | > tena v? _sahita asya_ ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || > > (As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the > house in which the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity is > [placed] with excellent strength in the nativity is aspected or > joined by that [ruler, there is] attainment of [the matter > signified by] that [house]: for example, [if it is placed] in the > ascendant of the year, there will be pleasures of the body.') > > From the context, the underlined phrase clearly stands for sahite > + asya, with e > a. While this is standard sandhi before other > vowels, I have never come across it before a. Is there a > traditional rule that allows for this? > > Best wishes, > Martin Gansten > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the list's > managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > /Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite/ > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > /*Sciences historiques et philologiques */ > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > /johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > / > > /johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu / > > /https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Mar 20 08:26:26 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 08:26:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: On Adhyash. Message-ID: <1552651599.S.1464.20399.f4mail-235-174.rediffmail.com.1553070386.15889@webmail.rediffmail.com> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: "alakendu das"<mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> Sent: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 17:36:39 GMT+0530 To: "indology"<indology at list.indology.info> Subject: On Adhyash. Respected Scholars, Adhyash happens to be a significant concept in Vedanta philosophy.So far,"Superimposition" is the only word which I came across,as a literal translation of Adhyash in English.Is there any other word ,in the philosophical context,which tantamounts to Adhyash?    Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dominik.haas at univie.ac.at Wed Mar 20 12:11:03 2019 From: dominik.haas at univie.ac.at (Dominik Haas) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 13:11:03 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_pracoday=C4=81t_in_g=C4=81yatr=C4=AB_mantras?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5fd1cc7ccaba4cedbc27e66343cdfa16@univie.ac.at> The matter was also brought up following yesterday's memorial service for Prof. Werba, and I've tried to find out some more for my ongoing G?yatr? study. I hope it helps somehow. The precative is most often made from aorist stems, and is thus very close to the aorist optative (lacking the s of the precative). The aorist of causatives is usually the reduplicating aorist, and the aorist optative would therefore be prac?cud?t (cf. Macdonell's Vedic Grammar for Students, p. 174, ?149.4). Apparently, however, no active _precative_ form of a reduplicating aorist is attested, and I think it would be rather speculative to postulate a Vedic aorist precative prac?cudy??s or prac?cudy??t. Interestingly, the precative is theoretically also made from the present stem of secondary verbs. Both Whitney (384, ?1049) and M?ller (1886: 113, ?385, note 2) remark that in the precative active of causative verbs, the suffix ay is to be _replaced_ by the suffix y?s. Whitney, however, regards this formation "as purely fictitious" (it would be really interesting to see if a precative like this is actually attested somewhere). Anyhow, the fictitious Sanskrit precative of pracodayati would thus be pracody?t. In the RV, pracod?y?t is definitely a subjunctive of a causative verb. However, since classical Sanskrit doesn't have the subjunctive, many reciters of the G?yatr?(s) must have had some difficulties in understanding this form (if they tried to); I hope I'll gain some insight in this matter in my dissertation. Best, Dominik Haas --- __________________ DOMINIK HAAS, BA MA PhD student, University of Vienna dominik.haas at univie.ac.at ORCID: 0000-0002-8505-6112 [2] academia.edu/DominikHaas [3] > Thank you Hans, > Is there such a thing as a causative precative and if so what would 3rd sing. look like for this root. > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 4:24 PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > > It's a causative (?ic) subjunctive (le?) > > Cheers, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > On 18 Mar 2019, at 15:16, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear list members, > > What is the verbal category of pracoday?t in g?yatr? mantras . For example : > > ekadant?ya vidmahe > > vakratu???ya dh?mahi > > tan no dant? pracoday?t > > Is it a causative subjunctive similar to the example in Whitney's grammar section 1043 dh?ray?t > > or is it a benedictive/precative? Is there such a thing as a causative precative? > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info [1] (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Links: ------ [1] http://listinfo.indology.info/ [2] https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8505-6112 [3] https://univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Mar 20 14:05:33 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 07:05:33 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????????? ??????? ??????: ???? ??? ????? ? ? ??????? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ??????? Playing in your game, you have caught us all. Tell me, O Krishna, who would want to be released from the bond of your love. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 18:12:09 2019 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 14:12:09 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <7A9D5C69-49F3-4705-A48A-60A5269EF7C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88884DE4-3A8E-4249-8A19-1FEE9B737AA4@gmail.com> Clarification: When I wrote "Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: v??numodeta.?, I meant that the avagraha? may serve as a device linking anumodeta as part of the previous phrase. Whitney expressly limits elision to -e + a- and -o + a-. If this interpretation has any merit, we may question that Buehler meant that v?'numodeta is an instance of elision. Whitney considers ? from a + a, ? + a, etc,. as coalescence rather than elision: "126. Two simple vowels, short or long, coalesce and form the corresponding long vowel?.? (Sanskrit Grammar, page 43). Strictly speaking, Buehler did not identify v??numodeta as an example of elision. He noted only that the sign first appeared in the inscription, but did not say it marked an elision in the inscription: ?Die moderne Bezeichnung der Elision eines A, der sogenannte avagraha, kommt zuerst auf der Kupferplatte des R???rk?ta-Koenigs Dhruva von 834/5 p. Chr. vor.? (The modern sign for the elision of an initial A, the so-called Avagraha, has been traced first on the Barod? copper-plate of the R???rak??a king Dhruva, dated A.D. 834-35.? (English translation, page 111). Elliot > On Mar 19, 2019, at 8:48 PM, Elliot Stern wrote: > > Dear Philipp and Krishnapad, > > Whitney remarks on page 9 of his Sanskrit Grammar: > > 16.a. A sign called the avagraha (separator) ? namely ? is occasionally used in the manuscripts, sometimes in the manner of a hyphen, sometimes as a mark of hiatus, sometimes to mark the elision of initial ? a after final ? e or ? o (135). In printed texts, especially European, it is ordinarily applied to the use last mentioned, and to that alone:thus ?????????? te?bruvan ?????????? so?brav?t for ?? ???????? te abruvan ?? ???????? so abrav?t. > > So even Whitney acknowledges that the manuscripts do not use avagraha? regularly. Incidentally, the avagraha? in the copper plate inscription is an instance, in Whitney?s terminology, of a hyphen. The text reads: v??numodeta. > > My own somewhat limited experience in reading manuscripts is that avagraha? rarely appears. I have seen it in devan?gar? and proto-mathil? or proto-b??gla manuscripts. I wonder if there are any studies about the use of avagraha? in manuscripts other than padap??ha? manuscripts. I have a sense that sometimes avagraha? is introduced into a manuscript copying tradition as a reader?s aid to interpretation.s > > Elliot > > >> On Mar 19, 2019, at 7:56 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY > wrote >> >> Dear Dr. Philipp A. Maas >> I was unaware of this. Thanks for the information. >> KP >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:41 PM Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> Dear Krishnaprasad, >> It would be interesting to know the first attestation for the use of avagraha in manuscripts and inscriptions. According to G. B?hler, the oldest attestation of an avagraha used for the elision of a can be found of a copper plate inscription of the R???rak?ta king Dhruva from 834/5 CE (Indische Palaeographie , p. 86). This reference may, of course, not represent the latest state of research. >> >> Best, >> >> Philipp >> __________________________ >> >> Dr. Philipp A. Maas >> Research Associate >> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften >> Universit?t Leipzig >> ___________________________ >> >> https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas >> >> >> Am Di., 19. M?rz 2019 um 01:31 Uhr schrieb Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY >: >> This avagrahava is very very modern. >> In Mahabhasya Patanjali writes for ????? ????? as ????? ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? >> ???? ??????? ? ????? ????????? >> And even in the time of Bhattoji Dikshita was not used. >> For ??????????? ?????????? he comments, ???????? ?????????? >> And there is a commentary on Bhagavatam by Satyadharmatirtha he is 250 years back. Even he writes such. >> So no difference in pronunciation. >> KP >> >> On Tue 19 Mar, 2019, 3:12 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY, > wrote: >> Dear Harry, >> >> You have raised an interesting question. The term avagraha is used in older texts like the Pr?ti??khyas and ?ik??s to refer to a pause between members of compounds in the Padap??ha, and some texts like the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? (3.3.35: ?????????????????????????????? ?????????: ???:) assign the duration of a m?tr? to this type of avagraha. The written sign of avagraha (?) in later times got extended to cases like ?????? and ??????, and yet I have not seen evidence for this extension in any of the phonetic texts, and to my knowledge there is no actual pause in recitation in these cases. Such a pause would create difficulties with the meters. How, when and why the term avagraha and the written sign (?) got extended to such uses needs to be investigated. But it has no phonetic value as far as I know. >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> How are avagrahas considered in metrical verses? >> Is --- sahite 'sya --- pronounced as if it was --- sahite sya --- or is there a slight pause for the avagraha? >> >> Harry Spier >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:43 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> Thanks to Madhav Deshpande, Andrey Klebanov and Harry Spier for their (off-list) replies to my question, confirming that the sandhi e + a > a a is indeed non-standard. Madhav wrote: >> >>> I have not seen another example exactly like this, and have not come across a traditional rule to deal with this. I wonder how hybrid this text is, or whether there are manuscript variants for this particular passage. One thing I noticed is that if we keep the presumed pre-sandhi reading of "sahite asya," the meter does not work, and neither does it work with the regular sandhi "sahite 'sya." The meter does seem to work with "sahita asya". The last syllable of "sahita" needs to be metrically light. So I suppose some sort of metrical compulsion may have resulted in this irregularity. Just a thought. >> >> The work in question is a largish one (~550 stanzas) and written in perfectly grammatical, sometimes even elegant Sanskrit in a variety of metres, with no particular suggestion of being hybrid, and the witnesses I have seen (two of the work itself, and half a dozen of another work quoting the verse in question) all agree on the reading of this passage. >> >> Harry raised the same point about the metre (sv?gat?), but it wouldn't be difficult to rephrase the p?da so as to conform to both metre and standard sandhi (e.g., tena v?pi sahite 'sya ca labdhis). So I am left with the impression that Y?davas?ri must have considered his choice of sandhi in this case unproblematic, although he usually follows the stardard rule e + a > e [']. >> >> Thanks again, >> Martin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > emstern1948 at gmail.com > 267-240-8418 > > > Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 18:13:11 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 14:13:11 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerard Huet's Sanskrit Reader Companion Message-ID: Dear list members, I've just tried Gerard Huet's Sanskrit Reader Companion,and I wanted to bring it to the other members attention if they haven't already tried it. Its very impressive. https://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/reader.en.html Taking Madhav's latest verse and inputing it in KH exactly how its written with no added breaks or resolving sandhi and choosing the "filtered solutions" option it output as its first solutions: input: khelantastava lIlAyAM gRhItAH smo vayaM tvayA output: [ khelanta?{ nom. pl. m. }[khelat { ppr. [1] ac. }[khel]]<>] [ tava{ g. sg. * }[yu?mad]<>] [ l?l?y?m{ loc. sg. f. }[l?l?]<>] [ g?h?t??{ acc. pl. f. | nom. pl. f. | nom. pl. m. }[g?h?ta { pp. }[grah]]] [ sma?{ pr. [2] ac. pl. 1 }[as_1]] [ vayam{ nom. pl. * }[asmad]<>] [ tvay?{ i. sg. * }[yu?mad]<>] ------------------------------- input: ka icched vada govinda muktiM te premabhandhanAt output: [ ka?{ nom. sg. m. }[kim]] [ icchet{ opt. [6] ac. sg. 3 }[i?_1]<>] [ vada{ imp. [1] ac. sg. 2 }[vad]<>] [ govinda{ voc. sg. m. }[govinda]<>] [ muktim{ acc. sg. f. }[mukti]<>] [ te{ acc. du. n. | nom. du. n. | nom. pl. m. | acc. du. f. | nom. du. f. }[tad] { g. sg. * | dat. sg. * }[yu?mad]<>] [ prema{ iic. }[preman]<>] [ bandhan?t{ abl. sg. m. | abl. sg. n. }[bandhana]<>] Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Mar 20 19:34:33 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 12:34:33 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerard Huet's Sanskrit Reader Companion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Harry, for this demonstration. Amazing to see how well it works. With best wishes, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 11:14 AM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > > I've just tried Gerard Huet's Sanskrit Reader Companion,and I wanted to > bring it to the other members attention if they haven't already tried it. > Its very impressive. > > https://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/reader.en.html > > Taking Madhav's latest verse and inputing it in KH exactly how its written > with no added breaks or resolving sandhi and choosing the "filtered > solutions" option it output as its first solutions: > input: > khelantastava lIlAyAM gRhItAH smo vayaM tvayA > output: > [ khelanta?{ nom. pl. m. }[khelat { ppr. [1] ac. }[khel]]<>] > [ tava{ g. sg. * }[yu?mad]<>] > [ l?l?y?m{ loc. sg. f. }[l?l?]<>] > [ g?h?t??{ acc. pl. f. | nom. pl. f. | nom. pl. m. }[g?h?ta { pp. > }[grah]]] > [ sma?{ pr. [2] ac. pl. 1 }[as_1]] > [ vayam{ nom. pl. * }[asmad]<>] > [ tvay?{ i. sg. * }[yu?mad]<>] > > ------------------------------- > input: > ka icched vada govinda muktiM te premabhandhanAt > output: > [ ka?{ nom. sg. m. }[kim]] > [ icchet{ opt. [6] ac. sg. 3 }[i?_1]<>] > [ vada{ imp. [1] ac. sg. 2 }[vad]<>] > [ govinda{ voc. sg. m. }[govinda]<>] > [ muktim{ acc. sg. f. }[mukti]<>] > [ te{ acc. du. n. | nom. du. n. | nom. pl. m. | acc. du. f. | nom. du. f. > }[tad] > { g. sg. * | dat. sg. * }[yu?mad]<>] > [ prema{ iic. }[preman]<>] > [ bandhan?t{ abl. sg. m. | abl. sg. n. }[bandhana]<>] > > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 19:37:10 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 20:37:10 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <362321f1-0542-d35d-18a7-076a33b93657@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Martin, the domain in which you are specializing is fascinating and some rudimentary knowledge of it is useful, even indispensable, for art historians and for other Sanskritic ??stras including k?vya -- should hence evoke a more than lukewarm interest of Indologists and readers of this list... I am happy that at least you consider my "analysis of [your] translation" to be "absolutely correct" -- and it is this analysis which allows me to indicate more precisely where I am still not convinced. It is indeed "the nub" of my argument to take "*sahita asya* to represent *sahita? asya* rather than *sahite asya*" because the latter option, as we have seen, leads nowhere except for turning an author elsewhere eager to communicate meaning accessible to 99 percent of his contemporaneous public, into an obscurantist who can only be fathomed by 1 percent -- plus a whole tribe of philologists centuries later who are ready to accept suddenly, ad hoc, a Vedic sandhi, etc., in what otherwise seems to be a ??stric text in impeccable classical Sanskrit. Next, trying to think in line with your argument and in the wider context of your interpretation, what could be the syntax of the verse? Apparently there are two options separated by v?. The expression yadg?he asks for a corresponding term, in the first option tatra, in the second option, I would suggest, tena (g?hena, rather than, in your interpretation, janmalagnapatin?). Both options lead to the same result: asya ... labdhis. If tatra and tena go with yadg?he, asya probably does *not* refer to yadg?he -- here I would modify my previous suggestion: could it go with janmalagnapatir? Could the janmalagnapatir, the lord of the first house, have something to do with the own body and hence with a?gasukham? Then, if both options lead to the same result, what could be the precise *difference* between them? In the first, the janmalagnapati is said to be uttamav?rya, and the house where he resides is (positively) aspected -- whether tatra ... d???e is a locative absolute or whether it is in direct concord to yadg?he. In the second, in my suggested reading, he is not necessarily uttamav?rya, but at least sahita with "that", i.e. with that house. MW 1095 col. 1 gives "(in astron.) in conjunction with (instr. or comp.)" for sahita. In western astrology, "in conjunction with" is always a matter of plus or minus 2-3 degrees, so that a planet can be in conjunction with another planet or even a house even if it is not squarely coinciding or residing in it, even if it is just outside that house: possibly Indian astrology is here more black and white, as it is also less interested in psychological character structure etc. (as the Dutch school of psychological astrology of Th.J.J. Ram and A.E. Thierens, the latter predicted in 1911 the existence of Pluto before it was astronomically perceived, and also predicted it does not have the fullfledged characteristics of a planet), but in predicting concrete events such as accidents, death, loss, economic success, etc. These are just some thoughts on your interesting problem: yad rocate tad gr?hya?, yan na rocate tat ty?jyam... Jan Houben On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 09:13, Martin Gansten wrote: > Thank you for your suggestion and interest, Jan. It is very refreshing to > be allowed to discuss the technical meaning of Sanskrit astrological texts > for once. > > Your analysis of my translation is absolutely correct. However, I cannot > help wondering how you know that the author 'KNEW that 99 percent of his > contemporaneous readers' would understand *sahita asya* to represent *sahita? > asya* rather than *sahite asya* (for that, as I understand it, is the nub > of your argument). But even granting for the sake of argument that this > should be so, the sense of the verse still requires, in my view, that we > side with the 1 percent. > > Your suggested translation has the ruler of the ascendant: > > there (tatra) [in that house, positively] aspected, or if [the ruler...] > is (if not placed in that house, at least) joined (sahita[?]) with it > (tena) [with the house], > > > That is a rather long translation of six short words (tatra ca d???e | > tena v? sahita[?]), and it has the presumed logical subject of the clause > jumping from the earlier nominative (-pati?) to the locative (d???e) and > back again (sahita?). More importantly, though, it conveys no real meaning, > for a planet being joined with a house means nothing more or less than the > planet occupying the house. This is a matter not only of established > meaning (r??hi), but of lack of alternatives: what else could it mean? So I > cannot agree with your suggestion. > > Phrases meaning 'joined or aspected by' (often in compounds like > yutek?ita, d???ayuk, etc.) are extremely common in astrological texts; the > two typically go together and refer to the same subject (which may be a > house, a planet, or some other point in the horoscope). To give just one > example, consider the following stanza from the same work and chapter > (12.47): > > sute sav?rye *?ubhayu?nir?k?ite* sute?vare kendragate bal?nvite | > tathaiva s?de sutasaukhyam ?rita? sut?tyaya? sy?d vipar?tage tath? || > > 'If the fifth house is strong, *joined or aspected by benefics*; if the > ruler of the fifth house, endowed with strength, occupies an angle; and if > the lot likewise [is strong and benefic], happiness from children is > declared [as the result]. Likewise, if [all are] conversely situated, the > death of a child will occur.' > > It thus seems more natural to me to take the *sahita* in *d???e ... > sahita asya* to represent *sahite *(agreeing with *d???e*) than *sahita?*, > even if we could find a translation to make sense of the latter alternative. > > Best wishes, > Martin > > > Den 2019-03-20 kl. 00:12, skrev Jan E.M. Houben: > > HOWEVER, if we accept the verse without emendation, should not we read it > in the way the author KNEW that 99 percent of his contemporaneous readers > would read it? > > > The verse you quoted: > > > > janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | > tena v? *sahita asya* ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || > > The translation you proposed (I supply the words on which each part is > based, if I understand your analysis and interpretation correctly): > > *** > > As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: > > 'If the house in which (yadg?he) the ruler of the ascendant of the > nativity (janmalagnapatir) is [placed] with excellent strength > (uttamav?ryo) in the nativity is aspected (tatra ... d???e) or (v?) joined > by that [ruler] (tena ... *sahite*), [there is] attainment (labdhis) of > [the matter signified by] that [house] (asya): for example (tad yath?), [if > it is placed] in the ascendant of the year (abdatanau), there will be > (sy?t) be pleasures of the body (a?gasukham).' > > *** > > > > Now, reading the verse ? if specialists familiar with the text agree there > is no reason to propose any ad hoc emendation ? with similar conceptual > interpretations BUT in the way the author KNEW that 99 percent of his > contemporaneous readers would read it (and paying more attention to the two > *ca*?s, and letting both *tatra* and *tena* refer anaphorically to *yadg* > *?**he*) we get something that perhaps amounts to the same but is based > on a different *anvaya*... : > > > > If in a house *(yadg?he)* in a nativity (janu?i) the ruler of the > ascendant of the nativity (janmalagnapatir) is having excellent strength, > *and* *[ca, extending the noun phrase] *is there *(tatra)* [in that > house, positively] aspected, or if [the ruler...] is (if not placed in that > house, at least) joined (*sahita**[?]*) with it *(tena)* [with the > house], then *also [ca, perhaps referring to a statement in a previous > verse, other conditions favouring labdhis?]* [there is] attainment of > [the matter signified by] that [house] (asya): for example (tad yath?), [if > it is placed] in the ascendant of the year (abdatanau), there will be > (sy?t) pleasures of the body (a?gasukham). > > > Bottom line: the use of square (and round) brackets is very much required > when analysing Sanskrit especially in scientific or philosophical arguments > -- as in the publication by Vincent Eltschinger, John Taber, Michael > Torsten Much, Isabelle Rati? on *Dharmak?rti?s Theory of Exclusion* recently > announced for "those among you who are still happy with square brackets". > > > Best, > > Jan Houben > > > > On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 at 20:11, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> I have a question for the vaiy?kara?as among us (who may find it very >> basic, in which case I apologize in advance): >> >> In the *T?jikayogasudh?nidhi *of Y?davas?ri (fl. possibly early 17th >> century, possibly in or near Gujarat) there occurs the following stanza >> (12.15), the form of which is corroborated by several independent witnesses: >> >> janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | >> tena v? *sahita asya* ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || >> >> (As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the house >> in which the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity is [placed] with >> excellent strength in the nativity is aspected or joined by that [ruler, >> there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house]: for >> example, [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year, there will be >> pleasures of the body.') >> >> From the context, the underlined phrase clearly stands for sahite + asya, >> with e > a. While this is standard sandhi before other vowels, I have never >> come across it before a. Is there a traditional rule that allows for this? >> >> Best wishes, >> Martin Gansten >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 20:55:40 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 21:55:40 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <15282a38-bf8c-2baa-40c5-c0e072efc4c9@gmail.com> Dear Jan, > the domain in which you are specializing is fascinating and some > rudimentary knowledge of it is useful, even indispensable, for art > historians and for other Sanskritic ??stras including?k?vya -- should > hence evoke a more than lukewarm interest of Indologists and readers > of this list... Encouraged by this positive evaluation, I am sharing my reply with the list. > It is indeed "the nub" of my argument to take "/sahita asya/?to > represent /sahita? asya/?rather than /sahite asya/" because the latter > option, as we have seen, leads nowhere except for turning an author > elsewhere eager to communicate meaning accessible to 99 percent of his > contemporaneous public, into an obscurantist who can only be fathomed > by 1 percent With respect, though, we haven't actually seen that. You claimed it, and I said that even if it were so, etc. In fact, I would still like to know on what you base that claim, as I cannot see it at all. > -- plus a whole tribe of philologists centuries later who are ready to > accept suddenly, ad hoc, a Vedic sandhi, etc., in what otherwise seems > to be a ??stric text in impeccable classical Sanskrit. The sandhi problem is the same in either case, as far as I can see. Sahita? + asya ought by standard practice to have resulted in sahito 'sya. > Next, trying to think in line with your argument and in the wider > context of your interpretation, what could be the syntax of the verse? > > Apparently there are two options separated by v?. The expression > yadg?he asks for a corresponding term, in the first option tatra, in > the second option, I would suggest, tena (g?hena, rather than, in your > interpretation, janmalagnapatin?). But what would that mean? /In that house which is aspected by that [house]/ does not make any sense. And conventionally it is the planets that are invested with 'sight' or aspect. > Both options lead to the same result:?asya ... labdhis. If tatra and > tena go with yadg?he, asya probably does /not/ refer to yadg?he -- > here I would modify my previous suggestion: could it go > with?janmalagnapatir? Could the?janmalagnapatir, the lord of the first > house, have something to do with the own body and hence with a?gasukham? The body is considered the portfolio of the first house, and, by extension, of the ruler of the house. So the latter is a special case of the former: the ruler of the first house would affect the body, but so would planets occupying or aspecting the first house itself. > Then, if both options lead to the same result, what could be the > precise /difference/ between them? In the first, the janmalagnapati is > said to be uttamav?rya, and the house where he resides is (positively) > aspected But the 'positively' is not in the text. The fact of the house being aspected by the strong ruler of the ascendant is itself considered positive, regardless of the type of aspect. > -- whether tatra ... d???e is a locative absolute or whether it is in > direct concord to yadg?he. In the second, in my suggested reading, he > is not necessarily uttamav?rya, but at least sahita with "that", i.e. > with that house. MW 1095 col. 1 gives "(in astron.) in conjunction > with (instr. or comp.)" for sahita. In western astrology, "in > conjunction with" is always a matter of plus or minus 2-3 degrees, so > that a planet can be in conjunction with another planet or even a > house even if it is not squarely coinciding or residing in it, even if > it is just outside that house: possibly Indian astrology is here more > black and white, Both Indian astrology and ancient and classical astrology generally are indeed clearer in their distinctions than modern western astrology, but that is slightly beside the point: the present question is of a more technical and, to some extent, terminological nature. If a planet were within a few degrees of the first house but not actually in it, it would necessarily be in some other house: either the second (which relates primarily to wealth and assets: dhanabh?va) or the twelfth (which concerns losses and the like: vyayabh?va). This is true irrespective of which method is used for dividing the houses: there are no empty spaces between them. It would be highly counter-intuitive for Y?davas?ri to state pleasures of the body as the only result to be expected from a planet actually placed in either the second or the twelfth house, even if it were close to the juncture with the first. The way I understand the syntax of the verse under consideration, the correlates of yadg?he are, first, tatra (with tatra ... d???e ... v? sahit[e] indeed being a locative absolute, tatra standing in for tasmin for metrical reasons -- slightly inelegant, but not unusual), and second, asya. Tena refers to the agent of the two passive participles, which has to be something other than the house itself and therefore can only be the ruler of the ascendant. The conclusion of the verse bears this out: if [the planet] is in the first house (tanau), there is pleasure of the body, which is the domain of the first house. The ruler being sahita 'joined' thus clearly means being placed /in /a house (locative). I take your point about not neglecting particles and so on, but in a metrical text, I think a madhyam? pratipad is the wisest option. Sometimes these little ca, tu, hi, etc., really are just there to fill out a line, especially if the writer is an indifferent verse-maker, or in a hurry, or temporarily uninspired. I speak from experience. :-) Best wishes, Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 22:26:23 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 19 23:26:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <15282a38-bf8c-2baa-40c5-c0e072efc4c9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Martin, Thanks for the instructive clarification. Clearly, I had imagined your author as a better author than he actually was. There is, then, perhaps only the very exceptional sandhi such as the one in RV 8.72,5 paada c to "save" him (and that for either -e or -o + a- > -a + a- according to MacDonell's comment on it) and his Taajika- (Persian?) text on astrology. Well, best of luck with the interpretation... Jan On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 21:55, Martin Gansten wrote: > Dear Jan, > > the domain in which you are specializing is fascinating and some > rudimentary knowledge of it is useful, even indispensable, for art > historians and for other Sanskritic ??stras including k?vya -- should hence > evoke a more than lukewarm interest of Indologists and readers of this > list... > > > Encouraged by this positive evaluation, I am sharing my reply with the > list. > > It is indeed "the nub" of my argument to take "*sahita asya* to represent *sahita? > asya* rather than *sahite asya*" because the latter option, as we have > seen, leads nowhere except for turning an author elsewhere eager to > communicate meaning accessible to 99 percent of his contemporaneous public, > into an obscurantist who can only be fathomed by 1 percent > > > With respect, though, we haven't actually seen that. You claimed it, and I > said that even if it were so, etc. In fact, I would still like to know on > what you base that claim, as I cannot see it at all. > > -- plus a whole tribe of philologists centuries later who are ready to > accept suddenly, ad hoc, a Vedic sandhi, etc., in what otherwise seems to > be a ??stric text in impeccable classical Sanskrit. > > > The sandhi problem is the same in either case, as far as I can see. > Sahita? + asya ought by standard practice to have resulted in sahito 'sya. > > Next, trying to think in line with your argument and in the wider context > of your interpretation, what could be the syntax of the verse? > > Apparently there are two options separated by v?. The expression yadg?he > asks for a corresponding term, in the first option tatra, in the second > option, I would suggest, tena (g?hena, rather than, in your interpretation, > janmalagnapatin?). > > > But what would that mean? *In that house which is aspected by that > [house]* does not make any sense. And conventionally it is the planets > that are invested with 'sight' or aspect. > > Both options lead to the same result: asya ... labdhis. If tatra and tena > go with yadg?he, asya probably does *not* refer to yadg?he -- here I > would modify my previous suggestion: could it go with janmalagnapatir? > Could the janmalagnapatir, the lord of the first house, have something to > do with the own body and hence with a?gasukham? > > > The body is considered the portfolio of the first house, and, by > extension, of the ruler of the house. So the latter is a special case of > the former: the ruler of the first house would affect the body, but so > would planets occupying or aspecting the first house itself. > > Then, if both options lead to the same result, what could be the precise > *difference* between them? In the first, the janmalagnapati is said to be > uttamav?rya, and the house where he resides is (positively) aspected > > > But the 'positively' is not in the text. The fact of the house being > aspected by the strong ruler of the ascendant is itself considered > positive, regardless of the type of aspect. > > -- whether tatra ... d???e is a locative absolute or whether it is in > direct concord to yadg?he. In the second, in my suggested reading, he is > not necessarily uttamav?rya, but at least sahita with "that", i.e. with > that house. MW 1095 col. 1 gives "(in astron.) in conjunction with (instr. > or comp.)" for sahita. In western astrology, "in conjunction with" is > always a matter of plus or minus 2-3 degrees, so that a planet can be in > conjunction with another planet or even a house even if it is not squarely > coinciding or residing in it, even if it is just outside that house: > possibly Indian astrology is here more black and white, > > > Both Indian astrology and ancient and classical astrology generally are > indeed clearer in their distinctions than modern western astrology, but > that is slightly beside the point: the present question is of a more > technical and, to some extent, terminological nature. If a planet were > within a few degrees of the first house but not actually in it, it would > necessarily be in some other house: either the second (which relates > primarily to wealth and assets: dhanabh?va) or the twelfth (which concerns > losses and the like: vyayabh?va). This is true irrespective of which method > is used for dividing the houses: there are no empty spaces between them. It > would be highly counter-intuitive for Y?davas?ri to state pleasures of the > body as the only result to be expected from a planet actually placed in > either the second or the twelfth house, even if it were close to the > juncture with the first. > > The way I understand the syntax of the verse under consideration, the > correlates of yadg?he are, first, tatra (with tatra ... d???e ... v? > sahit[e] indeed being a locative absolute, tatra standing in for tasmin for > metrical reasons -- slightly inelegant, but not unusual), and second, asya. > Tena refers to the agent of the two passive participles, which has to be > something other than the house itself and therefore can only be the ruler > of the ascendant. The conclusion of the verse bears this out: if [the > planet] is in the first house (tanau), there is pleasure of the body, which > is the domain of the first house. The ruler being sahita 'joined' thus > clearly means being placed *in *a house (locative). > > I take your point about not neglecting particles and so on, but in a > metrical text, I think a madhyam? pratipad is the wisest option. Sometimes > these little ca, tu, hi, etc., really are just there to fill out a line, > especially if the writer is an indifferent verse-maker, or in a hurry, or > temporarily uninspired. I speak from experience. :-) > > Best wishes, > Martin > > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Mar 21 08:33:54 2019 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 08:33:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <2b220a7b-dfed-8b8b-b76e-fa1d7a32feb1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DCF7FE1-5942-4B1B-933C-CADA705F81BD@uclouvain.be> There is maybe some parallel with what Renou Gram. p. 46 ?41c (dealing with the sandhi of final -e/-o + vowels) notes about the "hiatus de a (issu du nomin. a? des th?mes en -a) devant initiale a- suivie de deux consonnes dans un texte bouddh[ique]", referring to Pischel SBBerl. 1904, p. 812, here: https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/92836#page/890/mode/1up ekac?varaka asth?t instead of ekac?varako 'sth?t p???a avy?k?tam instead of p???o 'vy?k?tam I mean (in asya) the presence of the two consonants following the initial a, which lenghtens the syllabe, and makes the initial a pronounced long, resulting in the fact that the final e here conforms with the "general" rule (becoming a(y) when followed by any vowel, except a, or diphtongue). Conversely, the two consonants following a ? can make it considered as short, as Renou notes ibid. with the (mainly epic) occurrences of -o/-e 'tman for -a ?tman. Le 17 mars 2019 ? 20:10, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : I have a question for the vaiy?kara?as among us (who may find it very basic, in which case I apologize in advance): In the T?jikayogasudh?nidhi of Y?davas?ri (fl. possibly early 17th century, possibly in or near Gujarat) there occurs the following stanza (12.15), the form of which is corroborated by several independent witnesses: janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | tena v? sahita asya ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || (As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the house in which the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity is [placed] with excellent strength in the nativity is aspected or joined by that [ruler, there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house]: for example, [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year, there will be pleasures of the body.') >From the context, the underlined phrase clearly stands for sahite + asya, with e > a. While this is standard sandhi before other vowels, I have never come across it before a. Is there a traditional rule that allows for this? Best wishes, Martin Gansten _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Mar 21 12:22:50 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 05:22:50 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????? ????? ??????? ????????????????? ? ???????????????? ???????????? ????? ????: ??????? After creating four colors, he sprinkled them on the face of the world. Colored with four colors, Krishna celebrates Holi. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 13:17:30 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 18:47:30 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <9DCF7FE1-5942-4B1B-933C-CADA705F81BD@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Possibility of avagrahas when ? preceded by ? and ? ?? ???? = ?????? ?????? ??= ???????? Possibility of avagrahas when visarga is dropped hrsva ?? + ? = ? is dropped and optionally to indicate ? avagraha is used Possibility of avagrahas and double avagrahas in SavarNadirgha Sandhi( in South Indian style and North Indian styles) South Indian style(commonly seen in Nirnay Sagar press books Vani Vilas etc) ? represents ? (not ?) and it is never used in compound words ??? ?????= ???????? but never used in compound words, for example, ???+????= ??????? and not ???????? ??? ???????= ??????????? and this also never used in compound words. North Indian style ( especially in Navya Nyaya texts ) ? represents ? (not ?) and used both in compound words and non compound words ???????? ??????????? I hope this is clear when double avagraha is used. Best KP On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 2:04 PM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > There is maybe some parallel with what Renou Gram. p. 46 ?41c (dealing > with the sandhi of final -e/-o + vowels) notes about the "hiatus de a > (issu du nomin. *a?* des th?mes en *-a*) devant initiale a-* suivie de > deux consonnes* dans un texte bouddh[ique]", referring to Pischel SBBerl. > 1904, p. 812, here: > https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/92836#page/890/mode/1up > *ekac?varaka asth?t *instead of *ekac?varako 'sth?t* > *p???a avy?k?tam* instead of *p???o 'vy?k?tam* > I mean (in *asya*) the presence of the two consonants following the > initial *a*, which lenghtens the syllabe, and makes the initial * a *pronounced > long, resulting in the fact that the final *e* here conforms with the > "general" rule (becoming *a(y) *when followed by any vowel, except *a,* or > diphtongue). > Conversely, the two consonants following a *?* can make it considered as > short, as Renou notes ibid. with the (mainly epic) occurrences of *-o/-e > 'tman* for *-a* *?tman.* > > > Le 17 mars 2019 ? 20:10, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > I have a question for the vaiy?kara?as among us (who may find it very > basic, in which case I apologize in advance): > > In the *T?jikayogasudh?nidhi *of Y?davas?ri (fl. possibly early 17th > century, possibly in or near Gujarat) there occurs the following stanza > (12.15), the form of which is corroborated by several independent witnesses: > > janmalagnapatir uttamav?ryo yadg?he janu?i tatra ca d???e | > tena v? *sahita asya* ca labdhis tad yath??gasukham abdatanau sy?t || > > (As the meaning is quite technical, I give my translation: 'If the house > in which the ruler of the ascendant of the nativity is [placed] with > excellent strength in the nativity is aspected or joined by that [ruler, > there is] attainment of [the matter signified by] that [house]: for > example, [if it is placed] in the ascendant of the year, there will be > pleasures of the body.') > > From the context, the underlined phrase clearly stands for sahite + asya, > with e > a. While this is standard sandhi before other vowels, I have never > come across it before a. Is there a traditional rule that allows for this? > > Best wishes, > Martin Gansten > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lw24 at soas.ac.uk Thu Mar 21 14:58:16 2019 From: lw24 at soas.ac.uk (Lidia Wojtczak) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 14:58:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 2 lectures by Yigal Bronner at SOAS - April 25 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Yigal Bronner will be giving two talks at SOAS on Thursday, April 25: *Introducing Panditproject.org: Prosopographical Database of Indic Texts, 1-3pm, B201, Brunei Gallery* *Dandin?s Open Mirror, 5-7pm S113, Paul Webley Wing* Since it seems that my emails to the mailing list never retain their attachments, please follow these links to download the fliers for more information: https://sanskritreadingroom.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/brough-lecture_bronner.pdf https://sanskritreadingroom.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/pandit_bronner.pdf With best wishes, Lidia Wojtczak -- SOAS, University of London Sanskrit Reading Room *The Sanskrit Reading Room * Sanskrit at SOAS *Sanskrit at SOAS * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Broughlecture_Bronner.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 871887 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PANDiT_Bronner.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 519624 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 15:20:41 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 16:20:41 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <9DCF7FE1-5942-4B1B-933C-CADA705F81BD@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Thank you, Christophe. So there is at least one Buddhist parallel and one Vedic (?V 8.72.5c: v?ti st?tava amb?yam, as pointed out by Jan). That is interesting. Best wishes, Martin Den 2019-03-21 kl. 09:33, skrev Christophe Vielle: > There is maybe some parallel with what Renou Gram. p. 46 ?41c (dealing > with the sandhi of final -e/-o + vowels) notes about the "hiatus de a > (issu du nomin. /a?/des th?mes en /-a/) devant initiale a-*suivie de > deux consonnes* dans un texte bouddh[ique]", referring to Pischel > SBBerl. 1904, p. 812, here: > https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/92836#page/890/mode/1up > /ekac?varaka asth?t /instead of /ekac?varako 'sth?t/ > /p???a avy?k?tam/ instead of /p???o 'vy?k?tam/ > I mean (in /asya/) the presence of the two consonants following the > initial /a/, which lenghtens the syllabe, and makes the initial /a > /pronounced long, resulting in the fact that the final /e/?here > conforms with the "general" rule (becoming/a(y) /when followed by any > vowel, except /a,/?or diphtongue). > Conversely, the two consonants following a /?///can make it considered > as short, as Renou notes ibid. with the (mainly epic) occurrences of > /-o/-e ?'tman/ for /-a/ /?tman./ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 18:08:01 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 14:08:01 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:21 AM Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > o there is at least one Buddhist parallel and one Vedic (?V 8.72.5c: v?ti > st?tava amb?yam, as pointed out by Jan). That is interesting. > I just did a search of GRETIL for ...a a.... ... and there are hundreds possibly thousands of occurances of this . Here is a small sample. Note the Brahmasutras and Mahabhasya with commentaries had hundreds but since I wasn't sure if sandhi had been broken in these for commentarial purposes I'm not including them in this following small sample: * Rg Veda* Aufrechts edition compiled by H.S. Ananthanarayana and W. P. Lehman.
RV_01.077.04.1{25} sa no n???? n?tamo ri??da agnirgiro 'vas? vetu dh?tim
RV_01.094.05.2{30} citra? praketa u?aso mah?nasya agne ...
RV_01.105.03.1{20} mo ?u deva ada? svarava p?di divas pari
RV_01.141.01.2{08} yad?mupa hvarate s?dhate matir?tasya dhena anayanta sasruta?
RV_01.161.12.2{06} a?apata ya? karasna? va adade ya? pr?brav?t protasma abrav?tana
RV_01.161.12.2{06} a?apata ya? karasna? va adade ya? pr?brav?t protasma abrav?tana
RV_01.174.10.1{17} tvamasm?kamindra vi?vadha sya av?katamo nar?? n?p?t?
RV_01.191.01.2{14} dv?viti plu?? iti nyad???a alipsata
RV_07.023.04.2{07} y?hi v?yurna niyuto na ach? tva? hi dh?bhirdayase vi v?j?n
RV_08.005.03.1{01} yuv?bhy?? v?jin?vas? prati stoma ad?k?ata
RV_08.066.13.1{50} vaya? gh? te tve id vindra vipra api ?masi
RV_08.092.31.1{20} m? na indra abhy?di?a? s?ro aktu?v? yaman
RV_10.025.02.1{11} h?disp??asta asate vi?ve?u soma dha masu
RV_10.025.07.1{12} tva? na? soma vi?vato gopa adabhyo bhava
RV_10.088.07.2{11} tasminnagnau s?ktav?kena dev? havirvi?va ajuhavustan?p??
RV_10.138.05.2{26} indrasya vajr?dabibhedabhi?natha? pr?kr?macchundhyurajahadu?a ana?
RV_10.151.03.1{09} yath? deva asure?u ?raddh?mugre?u cakrire
RV_10.152.02.2{10} v??endra?pura etu na? somapa abhaya?kara?
*Atharvaveda-Samhita, Saunaka recension with the Pada-Patha and Sayanacarya's commentary, Hoshiarpur 1960-1964
* *(*AV?_3,19.8c) j?ya am?tr?n pr? padyasva jahy ???? v?ra?vara? m??m????? moci k?? can? ||8||
(AV?_4,20.9a) y? ant?rik?e?a p?tati d?vam y?? ca atis?rpati |
(AV?_4,36.10a) abh? t?? n?rr?tir dhatt?m ??vam iva a?v?bhidh??ny? |
(AV?_6,39.3c) ya??? v??vasya bh?t?sya ah?m asmi ya??stama? ||3||
(AV?_10,5.7a) agn?r bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.8a) ?ndrasya bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.9a) s?masya bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.10a) v?ru?asya bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.11a) mitr??v?ru?ayor bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.12a) yam?sya bh?g? stha ap??m ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.13a) pitr?????? bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_10,5.14a) dev?sya savit?r bh?g? stha ap??? ?ukr?m ?po dev?r v?rco asm??su dhatta |
(AV?_19,31.12a) gr?ma???r asi gr?ma???r utth??ya abh??ikto 'bh? m? si?ca v?rcas? |
(AV?_20,131.2a) t?sya anu n?bha?janam ||2||
*maitr?ya??i-sa?hit? ?chroeder's edition* ity uparik???e asur???? n?ma a??ama? prap??haka? sam?pta? //MS_3,8.10//
amanyanta, aya? v?veda? bhavi?yat?ti ta indra aichan han?memam iti so 'brav?t sa?dh? vai me sr?jas?yen?bhi?i?cate tad v?rtraghnam evaitat, dev?? ca v? asur?? ca samayatanta t?n agnis evaitat, 1 2 2 0910c pra na ay???i t?ri?at .. 184
* Samaveda* 4 2 2 01 01a eta as?gramindavastira? pavitram??ava? .
4 4 2 01 04a pra sv?n?so rath? iv?rvanto na avasyava? .
4 7 1 0703a aj?jano am?ta marty?ya am?tasya dharmannam?tasya c?ru?a? .
4 9 2 1101c pra na ay???i t?ri?at .. 1840
*Gopatha-br?hm??a* (GBr_1,2.18q) ten??va abhi???yeteti
gharma? t?pyam?nam up?s?ta ?astravad ardharca?a ?h?vapratigaravarja? r?pasam?ddh?bhi?_
(GBr_2,2.6kk) tad apy e??bhyan?kt? <catv?ri ???g? [PS 8.13.3, sakala at GBr 1,2.16f]>_iti || 6 ||
(GBr_2,4.4n) net svik?ta antaray?meti_
(GBr_2,4.18w) net svi??ak?ta antaray?meti_
*Satapatha Brahmana* bhr?t?vya? vardhayedyadatih?tya s?dayedyadya an?pt?? s?dayenno h?bhista?
upadadh?mi bhr?t?vyasya badh?yeti yadi n?bhicaredyadya abhicaredamu?ya
atha dak?i??m paridadh?ti | indrasya b?hurasi dak?i?o vi?vasya ari??yai
saptada?a s?midhen?? | i??ya anubr?y?dup???u tasyai devat?yai yajati yasy? i??a?
rak?as?mapahant? yadi madhyata asurarak?as?ny?sisa?k?antyagnireva t?nyapahanti
*Govind Kaul: Pradesasamgraha* puna? ca asya jal??ayasya p??c?ttye ta?a ek? b?hacch?l? pur?tanak?l?nena jyah??g?rar?j?? samp?dit? yasy?m ?dhunikar?j?? j?r?oddh?r?dika? niram?yata |
asminn eva achyabal iti sth?na? sarvajanamate priya? sarvata? prakhy?ta? ca bhavati |
yasmin bh?bh?ge 'sy?gne? pr?durbh?va? sa bh?mibh?ga atyu??o hast?dispar?en?pi lak?yate |
tatraikasya nandik?etra? n?ma anyasya k?lak?etra? n?ma vartate |
ato j??yate purat?ne k?le tat sarvam abhavi?yad eva asyoktajal??ayadvayasya k??m?rikagr?m??abh??ay? nund kol iti n?madvaya? sarvajanakathyam??a? bhavati |
aya? k???habhedo jv?l?rahito 'pi p?k?dikriya? samp?dayaty eva asya gr?m???n?? bh??a?e vi?hur v? vi?har k??h n?ma bhavat?ti ||
kecana a?okenaiva r?j?? ca prade?e prathamato nirm??a? k?tam iti svapustake likham?n? d??yante |
tath? ca asya sarvasya jagata? s???y?der ?d?v api vartam?no yas sa ?dike?ava? |
*Sarvamatasamgraha edition by T. Ganapati Sastri* s?dhanas?m?ny?bh?vena s?dhyas?m?ny?bh?vasya vy?ptirvyatireka? yatra yatra agnirn?sti tatra tatra dh?mo 'pi n?st?ti |
Badarayana: Brahmsutra, with Bhasya and Dipika, Adhyaya 1, Pada 1 param?nand?dy?tmakasya param?tmana? pratibimbatay? svata?cid?nand?dy?tmakasya j?vasya an?dyavidy?k?makarm?dinimittabandhadhva?s?ya nikhilaj?vaja??tmak?t prapa?c?t param?rthato iti *Pururavas: Kadambarisvikaranasutramanjari* * anena v?kyena anayo? k?ryak?ra?asa?gati? upap?dit? bhavati tath? c?yam artha? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 18:27:47 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 19:27:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8b5b5fc1-035f-1578-d456-bca62084838d@gmail.com> Thank you, Harry. Most of these are just instances where sandhi has not been implemented, or (in the case of Veda) where a text has been metrically restored. From a quick glance, though, a few do seem to be possible instances of a? + a > a a, and/or of e + a > a a. I will have to look more carefully. Best wishes, Martin Den 2019-03-21 kl. 19:08, skrev Harry Spier: > I just did a search of GRETIL for ...a a....? ... and there are > hundreds possibly thousands of occurances of this .? Here is a small > sample.? Note the Brahmasutras and Mahabhasya with commentaries had > hundreds but since I wasn't sure if sandhi had been broken in these > for commentarial purposes I'm not including them in this following > small sample: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 18:37:07 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 14:37:07 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: <8b5b5fc1-035f-1578-d456-bca62084838d@gmail.com> Message-ID: As I said this is a very small sample. Let me know if you want me to send you the entire list. Note also that the Rg-veda version used was Aufrechts not the metrically restored edition of Van Hooten and Holland. Harry On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 2:27 PM Martin Gansten wrote: > Thank you, Harry. Most of these are just instances where sandhi has not > been implemented, or (in the case of Veda) where a text has been metrically > restored. From a quick glance, though, a few do seem to be possible > instances of a? + a > a a, and/or of e + a > a a. I will have to look more > carefully. > > Best wishes, > Martin > > > Den 2019-03-21 kl. 19:08, skrev Harry Spier: > > I just did a search of GRETIL for ...a a.... ... and there are hundreds > possibly thousands of occurances of this . Here is a small sample. Note > the Brahmasutras and Mahabhasya with commentaries had hundreds but since I > wasn't sure if sandhi had been broken in these for commentarial purposes > I'm not including them in this following small sample: > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgalasek at googlemail.com Thu Mar 21 18:53:05 2019 From: bgalasek at googlemail.com (Bruno Galasek) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 19 11:53:05 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF excerpt request Message-ID: Dear list-members, I'm working on an English translation of the Tibetan version of the Bhadrakaraatriisutra (?phags pa mtshan mo bzang po zhes bya ba?i mdo; ?ryabhadrakar?tr?n?mas?tra; Toh. 313; Deg? Kangyur, vol. 72 (mdo sde, sa), folios 161b1?163b5) and would very much like to see what Peter Skilling wrote about it in vol. II of his 2-volume *Maha?su?tras: Great Discourses of the Buddha. Critical Editions of the Tibetan Maha?su?tras with Pa?li and Sanskrit Counterparts as Available. Volume II*. Oxford [England]: Pali Text Society, 1997. Unfortunately, I have no access to a University library at the moment. If it's not too much trouble, I would be very grateful if someone could kindly supply me with a scan/PDF of pages 74-84 (volume 2; Bhadrakaraatriisuutra, I am told, is dealt with pp. 81-84. But I'm also interested in what is said about the presence of mantras in P?li texts, beginning p. 74 of vol. 2) of said publication. The book seems to be otherwise unavailable. Many thanks. Bruno Galasek-Hul -- Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. 4159 Walnut Dr Eureka, CA 95503, USA Cell: +1-203-507-0080 <212035070080> E-mail: bgalasek at pm.me https://independent.academia.edu/BrunoGalasekHul http://84000.co/about/translators/ https://btw.mangalamresearch.org/en-us/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 07:03:58 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 19 08:03:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Non-standard sandhi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nevertheless, the majority of these hits seem not to be instances of e > a or o > a sandhi. Also, comparing them with the sa?hit? text in M?ller's edition, most of them are given either as ? (that is, a single vowel) or ? a, not as a a. A machine search for 'a a' may not be the optimal way of finding examples of this unusual sandhi. Martin Den 2019-03-21 kl. 19:37, skrev Harry Spier: > As I said this is a very small sample.? Let me know if you want me to > send you the entire list. > Note also that the Rg-veda version used was Aufrechts not the > metrically restored edition of Van Hooten and Holland. > Harry > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 2:27 PM Martin Gansten > > wrote: > > Thank you, Harry. Most of these are just instances where sandhi > has not been implemented, or (in the case of Veda) where a text > has been metrically restored. From a quick glance, though, a few > do seem to be possible instances of a? + a > a a, and/or of e + a > > a a. I will have to look more carefully. > > Best wishes, > Martin > > > Den 2019-03-21 kl. 19:08, skrev Harry Spier: >> I just did a search of GRETIL for ...a a....? ... and there are >> hundreds possibly thousands of occurances of this .? Here is a >> small sample.? Note the Brahmasutras and Mahabhasya with >> commentaries had hundreds but since I wasn't sure if sandhi had >> been broken in these for commentarial purposes I'm not including >> them in this following small sample: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 22 13:31:04 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 19 06:31:04 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???? ???? ????????? ??????????????: ? ???? ????????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? The cows, the cowherds and the cowgirls, the droplets of the water of Yamuna, and even the particles of dust, celebrate Holi in Gokula. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luther.obrock at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 16:20:31 2019 From: luther.obrock at gmail.com (luther obrock) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 19 12:20:31 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Annual Jainism Summer School at the University of Toronto Message-ID: Dear All, I am pleased to announce the First Annual Summer School on Jainism to take place at the University of Toronto from July 29th to Aug. 3rd. Please see the description below and circulate widely. We especially encourage the participation of graduate students. Do not hesitate to contact me if you have further questions, or if you would like to register Best, Luther Obrock luther.obrock at utoronto.ca The First Annual Summer School on Languages of Jainism will take place in at the University of Toronto from July 29th to August 2nd, 2019. The First Summer School will focus on reading and contextualizing the *prabandha* literature, a rich archive of Jain histories, biographies, and stories composed mainly in Sanskrit and Prakrit. These narratives often display a historical consciousness rarely seen in other genres of Sanskrit literature, making them essential resources for the social and religious history of the period. This year?s Summer School will survey the breadth of themes, figures and places in the Jain *prabandha *literature and to consider the historiographical challenges and potential rewards of writing the history of late medieval India using these sources. Daily reading sessions will examine themes emerging in a number of sources, such as Jain views of kingship; the roles of monks and laymen as social and political leaders; Jain technologies of power of mantras, tantras, and alchemy; the re-imagining of sacred space and sacred geography; and the relations between Jains and Islamicate polities. The workshop will be led by Steven M. Vose, the Bhagwan Mahavir Assistant Professor of Jain Studies and Director of the Jain Studies Program at Florida International University in Miami, Florida, an expert in Jainism and a historian of medieval and early modern western India, whose research proposes new ways to use Jain *prabandha *literature as historical sources. Invited faculty include Shalin Jain and Sarah Pierce Taylor. Each day will consist of three sessions: A morning reading session, an afternoon lecture or discussion, and an afternoon reading session. Readings will be mainly in Sanskrit with some in Prakrit, and an intermediate knowledge of Sanskrit is encouraged. Each day will also have a lecture and discussion meant to familiarize the participant with the debates spurring the field. There are no fees associated with attending the workshop itself, and room and board will be provided gratis to initial participants. Travel stipends may also be available for a few student participants; however, it is recommended that participants apply to their home institutions for financial aid before asking for travel accommodation assistance. For registration details and additional information or inquiries please contact: Luther Obrock luther.obrock at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Sat Mar 23 05:49:25 2019 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 05:49:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an Indological topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor journal; since I suspected that this is one of those predatory publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has decided to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of their links and now see that authors wishing to publish in the journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether editors receive any payment for their work, but since no mention of such payment has been made I expect there is none. I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published work and paid APC to get your work published. I have never been asked to do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED Dear Professor Griffiths, We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline our request: https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with our editorial team at MDPI. The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, contacting authors, and professional production before publication. RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may access an inventory of our special topics issues: Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, San Diego State University) Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like further details, or have any questions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Sat Mar 23 06:23:32 2019 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 07:23:32 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: 17th Classical Tamil Summer Seminar (CTSS) in Hamburg (2^nd to 13^th September 2019) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: 17th Classical Tamil Summer Seminar (CTSS) in Hamburg Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 06:08:47 +0100 From: eva wilden *Announcement for the 2019 CTSS.* This year, unlike the preceding years, the CTSS (Classical Tamil Summer Seminar) will not take place in Pondicherry, but will take place in Hamburg, from 2^nd to 13^th September. This will be an experiment not only with respect to the place: the Centre for the Study of Manuscript Cultures (CSMC) has just set up a programme for Summer/Winter Schools, and the CTSS will be the first to explore the new scheme: participants still have to pay for their travel (although there is a possibility of applying for financial support), but (simple) student accommodation will be provided by the organiser. The overall plan is to have the CTSS mobile and alternating between several locations, namely, besides our beloved Pondy and the CSMC, also, possibly, the Paris Centre of the University of Chicago. The text chosen for advanced reading is one canto from the venerable /Cilappatik?ram/, the first long Tamil epic poem of perhaps the 5^th century. We are, however, not going to follow the story line, but concentrate on canto XII, devoted to Ko??avai, the Tamil goddess of the battle field -? the only literary testimony of /dev?/ worship in the whole of the first millennium and notoriously difficult. Luckily it is accompanied not only by the old /arumpatavurai/, but also by the commentary of A?iy?rkkunall?r, and moreover some intriguing parallels are found both in the /Pu?an????u/ and the /Pu?apporu? V??p?m?lai/. This year there will not be a beginner?s group. The details will very soon be found online on the page of the CSMC -- please express your wish for participation by email before the end of May to: eva.wilden at uni-hamburg.de Please don't hesitate to forward this mail to others who might be interested. Professor Dr. Eva Wilden Centre for the Study of Manuscript Cultures Universit?t Hamburg Warburgstra?e 26 DE-20354 Hamburg From Karen_O'Brien-Kop at soas.ac.uk Sat Mar 23 09:56:33 2019 From: Karen_O'Brien-Kop at soas.ac.uk (Karen O'Brien-Kop) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 09:56:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yoga Studies Week at the SOAS Centre of Yoga Studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues Please see attached details of Yoga Studies Week, hosted by the SOAS Centre of Yoga Studies from March 25th to 29th. Best wishes SOAS Centre of Yoga Studies Monday 25th March Directions in Yoga Studies: Established and Emerging Research ? Dr Suzanne Newcombe (Open University and Inform, KCL) and Karen O?Brien-Kop (SOAS) 6.30-7.45pm, Khalili Lecture Theatre (KLT), SOAS Introducing a week of guest speakers, this talk will provide an overview of the main and emerging areas of yoga studies in academia currently. We will highlight new and interesting trends in research for yoga and meditation studies, taking into account many different disciplinary framings, geographical areas, and historical periods. The lecture will conclude with a discussion on areas of contemporary interest in regard to yoga and meditation both within and outside the academy. This event is free but booking is required. Booking and more details via Eventbrite. *Tuesday 26th March * Brough Lecture. Between Sound and Silence in Early Yoga: Meditation on OM at the Moment of Death ? Dr Finnian Gerety (Brown University, USA) 6.00-7.20pm, Khalili Lecture Theatre (KLT), SOAS This talk examines how Vedic texts and rituals inform the construction of mantra-based contemplative practices in early Yoga. Tracing the development of meditation on the sacred syllable ?OM? at the moment of death, Dr Gerety will argue that the techniques of several early Yoga systems have roots in the little-known rite of ?yoking? (yukti) from the Jaimin?ya school of S?maveda. In this rite, the seated practitioner controls his breath and senses, visualizes the liturgy, and chants OM out loud while meditating in silence on other mantras?with the aim of ascending to the sun and attaining immortality. Jaimin?ya sources thus furnish the oldest link in a chain of Indian soteriologies associated with OM, death, and solar ascent?a genealogy that extends from the Vedas up through foundational discourses of early Yoga. By examining the tension between sound and silence in contemplative practices involving OM, this talk aims to bring attention to the interplay of mantra and meditation, and to invite a reappraisal of Brahmanical contributions to premodern Yoga systems. This event is free but booking is required. Booking and more details via Eventbrite. Yoga as Neoliberal Spirituality: Personal Growth, Self-Care & the Quest for Liberation ? Dr Andrea Jain (Indiana University, USA) 7.30-8.45pm, Khalili Lecture Theatre (KLT), SOAS Neoliberal spirituality relies on the selective deployment of key neoliberal assumptions, such as the importance of self-governance and individual responsibilization. It privileges meritocracy insofar as many activities revolve around discerning and certifying the merit that leads to the envied lifestyle of personal growth, self-care, and liberation. At the same time, spirituality has suffered the fate of other cultural areas under the global dominance of neoliberal capitalism. Adherents must ?do more with less,? cutting costs while meeting ever-greater demands. In this talk, Prof. Andrea Jain evaluates the ways the global yoga industry serves as a crucial node of neoliberal spirituality, analyzing different and conflicting narratives in the yoga industry in order to shed light on larger systemic issues, particularly by illuminating the following: a globally pervasive neoliberal logic whereby control over one?s body is valued, but is defined as an individual achievement; and capitalist strategies of commodification that contain dissent against dominant ideologies through gestural subversions. Together, these brew an industry that largely buttresses the oppressive ideologies of, for example, neoliberalism and heteropatriarchy. This event is free but booking is required. Booking and more details via Eventbrite. Wednesday 27th March Sanskrit Reading Room: Singing for Immortality: Texts and Rites of the Jaimin?ya S?maveda ? Dr Finnian Gerety (Brown University, USA) 1.00-3.00pm, B102, Brunei Gallery, SOAS The Sanskrit Reading Room is a reading forum for budding Sanskritists to improve their Sanskrit language skills and be up-to-date with current research in Sanskrit studies. Because the texts of the Jaimin?ya school of S?maveda lack complete and up-to-date critical editions and translations, the important contributions of this lineage of Vedic ritualists to the history of Indian religions have not always been duly appreciated. Chief among these is the construction of ?OM? as a sacred syllable that leads to immortality, a project undertaken by the authors of the Jaimin?ya Upani?ad-Br?hma?a (ca. 700 BCE). Combining reflection on ritual in the style of a Vedic ?ra?yaka with metaphysical speculation similar to an upani?ad, this seminal prose text explains esoteric modes of singing ?melodies? (s?man) from the S?mavedic liturgy, emphasizing the soteriological efficacy of OM in Vedic sacrifice. In this session of the Sanskrit Reading Room, we will read several passages from the Jaimin?ya Upani?ad-Br?hma?a with the aim of understanding how Jaimin?ya authors approach mantra, ritual, the body, and liberation. To this end, we will attend to the strategies they use to codify, elevate, and interpret OM as a recitational technique for attaining immortality. We will also look for clues in the text that give insights into its broader social and religious context, including political patronage, attitudes towards asceticism, and influence on other Vedic schools. This event is free but registration is required as space is very limited. Please email srr at soas.ac.uk to book your place. Visions of Pata?jali as a N?ga, Siddha, and Sage ? Dr Gudrun B?hnemann (University of Wisconsin-Madison, USA) 3.30-4.30pm, Khalili Lecture Theatre (KLT), SOAS Pata?jali was the name of an ancient Indian sage to whom important works on Sanskrit grammar, Yoga philosophy and the medical system of ?yurveda are ascribed. In recent decades increasing attention has focused on Pata?jali as an authority on and figurehead of Yoga. Believed to be the author of a set of aphorisms on Yoga philosophy (the Yogas?tras), which has attained canonical status in many Yoga traditions, he is eulogized with invocations in Sanskrit recited at the beginning of Yoga classes. Dr B?hnemann?s talk will discuss this multi-faceted legendary personage and explore the development of visual representations of the sage, and beliefs and concepts associated with him. This event is free but booking is required. Booking and more details via Eventbrite. The Politics of Yoga: Sex, Religion, and Power in the Global Industry ? Dr Andrea Jain (Indiana University, USA) 6.00-7.15pm, triyoga Camden In recent years, the global yoga industry?including the popular Iyengar, ashtanga, hatha, flow, and Bikram (?hot?) yoga forms?has come under scrutiny for its commercialization, penchant for commodification and cultural appropriation, and abuses of power. For example, in the wake of #MeToo, there have been countless revelations that influential gurus and teachers sexually assaulted students. Arguably, the controversies around yoga reflect anxieties regarding religion, spirituality, post-colonialism, capitalism, gender, and identity. In this talk, Prof. Andrea Jain will discuss the religious, social, and political forces animating contemporary yoga debates. NOTE: This event takes place at triyoga Camden. Tickets ?12. Booking via the triyoga website. Thursday 28th March Yoga and Meditation Traditions in Indonesia ? Dr Andrea Acri (?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, PSL University, France) 1.00-1.45pm, G3, Main Building, SOAS Lunchtime lecture. This talk will survey the Indic yoga and meditation traditions that developed in what is now the nation-state of Indonesia, from ca. the eight century CE to the present. It will present evidence from premodern Sanskrit-Old Javanese texts on the philosophical and soteriological traditions of P?ta?jala yoga and tantric ?aiva yoga and discuss in a comparative fashion their Indic roots vis-?-vis their local reconfigurations, as well as their continuation into modern Balinese Hindu practice. It will then discuss yoga motifs that have survived in an Islamic garb in Classical Malay texts from Sumatra and in modern Javanese mystical currents. This event is free but booking is required. Booking and more details via Eventbrite. Friday 29th March Alchemy in Daoism and Ha?ha Yoga ? Discussion with Professor Louis Komjathy (University of San Diego) and Dr James Mallinson (SOAS) 6.00-8.00pm, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre, SOAS Chaired by Suzanne Newcombe (Open University and Inform, KCL). Followed by a drinks reception. The perfection of the human, seen as either a means towards ultimate liberation from suffering or immortality, has a central place in both the Indian and Chinese esoteric traditions. To these ends, both Ha?ha and Daoist traditions have ?internal? practices relating to the manipulation of energy inside the body as well as more ?external? practices which can involve the ingestion of substances. Both of these Indian and Chinese traditions have also developed a variety of physical exercises aimed at strengthening the physical body. By bringing two leading scholars in their respective fields together in dialogue, it is hoped that the discussion will further elucidate both similarities and distinctions between the Indian and Chinese traditions. Each scholar will make a short presentation on the internal and external practices of alchemy in their respective tradition(s), before an extended question and answer session and informal reception. With support from the European Union?s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreements No. 639363 (AYURYOG: Entangled Histories of Yoga, Ayurveda and Alchemy in South Asia) and No. 616393 (The Ha?ha Yoga Project (HYP). This event is free but booking is required. Booking and more details via Eventbrite. ------------------------ Karen O'Brien-Kop *Senior Teaching Fellow* Department of Religions and Philosophies SOAS University of London Office hours: Wednesday 11am to 1pm by appointment, Room 343 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Mar 23 11:33:09 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 11:33:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Arlo, I receive solicitations of this type almost every day and I have found that most emanate ultimately from Chinese sources. Money is not always involved, because the underlying game is to multiply "international refereed" journals in the interest of advancing the standings of one's institution in the Shanghai ratings. I do not know if that is the case with what was sent to you, of course, but I do advise all colleagues to be very cautious about these matters. Phoney academic venues of various kinds - journals, conferences, even fake universities - are springing up like mushrooms. (It is worth noting that China opens about 5 new universities, more or less real ones, each month.) best regards, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 12:49:25 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Dear colleagues, I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an Indological topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor journal; since I suspected that this is one of those predatory publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has decided to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of their links and now see that authors wishing to publish in the journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether editors receive any payment for their work, but since no mention of such payment has been made I expect there is none. I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published work and paid APC to get your work published. I have never been asked to do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED Dear Professor Griffiths, We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline our request: https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with our editorial team at MDPI. The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, contacting authors, and professional production before publication. RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may access an inventory of our special topics issues: Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, San Diego State University) Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like further details, or have any questions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Mar 23 13:26:17 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 06:26:17 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ?????: ??????? ????? ??????????? ? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ? ??????? All colors gather together with Krishna in the festival of Holi, and coloring each other they enjoy themselves and cause delight to others. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbroo at abo.fi Sat Mar 23 13:51:44 2019 From: mbroo at abo.fi (mbroo at abo.fi) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 15:51:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190323155144.4oa36bnyoso8cgwc@webmail1.abo.fi> Dear Arlo and others, I have reviewed an article for Religions and know some colleagues who have published in it. While this journal is not to be confused with the more well-established Religion, it has come out for almost ten years by now and follows standard rules for academic publishing. It has a 1 on the Finnish scale of academic publications (0-3) which is not great but standard for such a newly established journal. I think it ranks similarly in other countries. Article processing charges (AFC) are getting more and more common, as a side-effect of the move towards open access publishing. As publishers less and less can live on income from readers, getting the money from authors (=their institutions) is a natural alternative. This is by no means unproblematic, as it makes it difficult for scholars unaffiliated with rich (=Western) institutions to publish, etc. Nevertheless, I am editing a (gold standard) open access journal myself (Temenos) so I know that even when journals are not geared towards profit and editors get no money for their work, it still costs to bring out high-quality journals, even when they are online only. In our case, we have external funding, but not all journals are so fortunate. Sincerely yours, M?ns > Dear Arlo, > > > I receive solicitations of this type almost every day and I have > found that most emanate ultimately from Chinese sources. Money is > not always involved, because the underlying game is to multiply > "international refereed" journals in the interest of advancing the > standings of one's institution in the Shanghai ratings. > > > I do not know if that is the case with what was sent to you, of > course, but I do advise all colleagues to be very cautious about > these matters. Phoney academic venues of various kinds - journals, > conferences, even fake universities - are springing up like > mushrooms. (It is worth noting that China opens about 5 new > universities, more or less real ones, each month.) > > > best regards, > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ________________________________ > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of > Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 12:49:25 AM > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI > > Dear colleagues, > > I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a > commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal > Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an Indological > topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor journal; since I > suspected that this is one of those predatory publishers we read > about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of principle I favor > publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I decided not to > respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, > apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has > decided to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of > their links and now see that authors wishing to publish in the > journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article > Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether editors receive any > payment for their work, but since no mention of such payment has > been made I expect there is none. > > I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether > there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. > More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published > work and paid APC to get your work published. I have never been > asked to do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to do so > as long as there are still fine journals which don't ask any such > fees and impose very low barriers to access. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO, Paris > > ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED > > Dear Professor Griffiths, > > We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal > Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our > suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature > in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication > record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a > collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the > field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline > our request: > https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG > > As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the > Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final > decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with > our editorial team at MDPI. > > The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue > website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with > invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated > with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, > contacting authors, and professional production before publication. > > RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, > publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. > It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and > in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the > top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. > Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. > > At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may > access an inventory of our special topics issues: > > Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington > DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, > Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) > Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University > and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the > Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) > Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke > University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience > (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford > University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) > (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, > San Diego State University) > > Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like > further details, or have any questions. > > -- Dr. M?ns Broo Senior Lecturer of Comparative Religion Editor of Temenos, Nordic Journal of Comparative Religion ?bo Akademi University Fabriksgatan 2 FI-20500 ?bo, Finland phone: +358-2-2154398 fax: +358-2-2154902 mobile: +358-50-5695754 From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Sat Mar 23 14:10:36 2019 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 14:10:36 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Institut_d'=C3=A9tudes_avanc=C3=A9es_de_Nantes_Fellowships?= Message-ID: <3436902D-C54A-495A-8297-5308A1F948CC@uclouvain.be> Dear Colleagues, On behalf of a Colleague in residence there, I draw your attention on the opportunity of a 9th months funded sabbatical or senior postdoctoral research stay in humanities or social sciences (including Indology/Indian studies) at the French "Institut d'?tudes avanc?es de Nantes" (Nantes city is 2 hours train from Paris): https://www.iea-nantes.fr/en/the-institute/mission/ https://www.iea-nantes.fr/en/apply/admission-procedure/ (call for applications - 2020-2021 Fellowships - Closing date: 30 April 2019) Among the Alumni you will find several scholars from India and, as far I can see, two members from our List. Best wishes ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corinnawessels at yahoo.de Sat Mar 23 14:59:09 2019 From: corinnawessels at yahoo.de (Corinna Wessels-Mevissen) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 14:59:09 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_Issue_of_=E2=80=9CBerlin_Indological_Studies=E2=80=9D?= In-Reply-To: <1080245000.16116195.1553353149202.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1080245000.16116195.1553353149202@mail.yahoo.com> Dear All, ?Berliner Indologische Studien / Berlin Indological Studies?, Vol. 24, 2019, has just come out, edited, as usual, by Gerd Mevissen. Please see the details under the following link (for English scroll down). I have also pasted the list of articles below. http://www.weidler-verlag.de/Reihen/BIS/BIS_24/bis_24.html ? GERD J.R. MEVISSEN (comp.): Updated Bibliography of Klaus BRUHN (1928?2016)? JOHANNES SCHNEIDER: Rezepte f?r R?ucherwerk und andere Wohlger?che aus dem tibetischen Tanjur: N?g?rjunas *A???pad?k?tadh?payoga ? KURT TROPPER: Inscription 1 in the Entrance Area of the Lha khang chen mo at ?Khor chags Monastery. Edition and Annotated Translation ? GOURISWAR BHATTACHARYA: Importance of Mainamati, A Unique Buddhist Site in Bangladesh ? PARUL PANDYA DHAR: Characterizing Contrariety; Representing R?va?a in the Early Western Deccan ? K.L. MANKODI: ??tal?, and ?iva as ???tale?vara?, on the Chandrabhaga?s T?rtha at Jhalrapatan ? GERD J.R. MEVISSEN: Observational Hints at the Probable Relevance of the Tropic of Cancer in Indian Art: The Case of Tapasvin? P?rvat? ? RAJESH KUMAR SINGH: Devil in the Details?1, SPINK?s Imaginations: Did the A?makas Really Destroy the Front Cells of Ajanta Cave 19? ? CORINNA WESSELS-MEVISSEN & ADAM HARDY: Note on a Recently Reported Early ?iva Temple near Kothur (Telangana State) ? MONIKA ZIN: The Pa?catantra in Sogdian Paintings? ? B?LA KEL?NYI: How to Read Pictures. Review of: Olaf CZAJA, Reflections of the Divine: Treasures of Tibetan Painting. The Ulrich W?rz Collection. Weimar, 2018 Corinna Wessels-Mevissen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 17:25:46 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 19 18:25:46 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Hidden_M=C5=ABrtis:_The_Sanskrit_Students_of_Radcliffe_College?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I write to share this short blog post , by Anand Venkatkrishnan, on Radcliffe women who studied with Lanman in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I strongly recommend reading until the end - the final paragraph deserves your attention. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 03:45:45 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 19 09:15:45 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Hidden_M=C5=ABrtis:_The_Sanskrit_Students_of_Radcliffe_College?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing this highly useful information. On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 10:57 PM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I write to share this short blog post > , > by Anand Venkatkrishnan, on Radcliffe women who studied with Lanman in the > late 19th and early 20th centuries. > > I strongly recommend reading until the end - the final paragraph deserves > your attention. > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Mar 24 13:06:43 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 19 06:06:43 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ?????????? ? ??????????????????????: ??????????? ??????????? ??????? During Holi in the courtyard of Vraja, there is no one with just a single color. Being smeared with all colors, Krishna himself became multi-colored. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 18:13:24 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 19 19:13:24 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Hidden_M=C5=ABrtis:_The_Sanskrit_Students_of_Radcliffe_College?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List Members, I would like to share that I have received an e-mail objecting to Prof. Paturi's thank you. This objection - sent to myself, Prof. Paturi, and the INDOLOGY governing committee - complains that such messages make the forum "busy" and states "It is not necessary to inform the nearly 1000 other members of the list that you are grateful to the author." I have been on the INDOLOGY governing committee for several years, and I do not recall having seen another similar objection for a single, short all-list response. This is a chilling reminder of the bristling reactions engendered by talking about "inequalities of race and gender " that continue to feature in our discipline. One hopes that we might all take a long look in the mirror and begin to heed Anand Venkatkrishnan's call for moving beyond the "occlusion and absence" that condition the field of Indology. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 4:46 AM Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Thanks for sharing this highly useful information. > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 10:57 PM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I write to share this short blog post >> , >> by Anand Venkatkrishnan, on Radcliffe women who studied with Lanman in the >> late 19th and early 20th centuries. >> >> I strongly recommend reading until the end - the final paragraph deserves >> your attention. >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 00:46:39 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 19 18:46:39 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New paper published in History of Science in South Asia Message-ID: The new research paper by Fabrizio Speziale (EHSS, Paris), "Ras?yana and Rasa??stra in the Persian Medical Culture of South Asia ," was published today in the journal *History of Science in South Asia* HSSA is a blind double peer-reviewed Open Access journal supported by the University of Alberta that charges authors no processing fee and readers no reading fee. -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 02:34:28 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 19 20:34:28 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over the years. I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword ("journal", "copyright", "open access" etc.). Opinion pieces include: - How open is open-access - Business models for OA journals - Crowd-sourcing peer-review - What's the point of an academic journal? To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an processing fee was required for OA publication. Brill charged ?400, if I recall, for an article in *Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. *Springer charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA paper in the *International Journal of Hindu Studies.* At that time, these fees were paid by my employer, who had a budget for this. My research contract included a clause saying that all my publications had to be Open Access. There are many reasons why OA is a good thing. A short statement of the main issues is available in this video . For more literature on the issues at stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of documentation and discussion. You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access." This is not the case, unfortunately. Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South Asia-related journals that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, etc.) are very expensive indeed for readers whose universities don't pay exorbitant annual license fees. The video above makes some of these points about half way through. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a commercial > company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal Religions as > guest editor for a special issue on an Indological topic. Since I had never > heard of publisher nor journal; since I suspected that this is one of those > predatory publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of > principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I > decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, > apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has decided > to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of their links and > now see that authors wishing to publish in the journal Religions need to > pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't > know whether editors receive any payment for their work, but since no > mention of such payment has been made I expect there is none. > > I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether there > might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. More generally, > I wonder how many of you have actually published work and paid APC to get > your work published. I have never been asked to do so, and wonder why > anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as there are still fine > journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to > access. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO, Paris > > ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED > > Dear Professor Griffiths, > > We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal > Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our > suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature > in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication > record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a > collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the > field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline > our request: > https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG > > As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the > Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final > decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with > our editorial team at MDPI. > > The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue > website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with > invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated > with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, > contacting authors, and professional production before publication. > > RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, > publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. > It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and > in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the > top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. > Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. > > At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may > access an inventory of our special topics issues: > > Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington > DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, > Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) > Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University > and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the > Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) > Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke > University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience > (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford > University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) > (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, > San Diego State University) > > Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like > further details, or have any questions. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Mon Mar 25 04:13:45 2019 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 19 17:13:45 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1553487225.4687.17.camel@fastmail.com> -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:34:28 -0600 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Cc: indology at list.indology.info To: Arlo Griffiths Reply-to: Dominik Wujastyk From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over the years. I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword ("journal", "copyright", "open access" etc.). Opinion pieces include:How open is open-accessBusiness models for OA journalsCrowd- sourcing peer-reviewWhat's the point of an academic journal? To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an processing fee was required for OA publication. Brill charged ?400, if I recall, for an article in Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. Springer charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA paper in the International Journal of Hindu Studies. At that time, these fees were paid by my employer, who had a budget for this. My research contract included a clause saying that all my publications had to be Open Access. There are many reasons why OA is a good thing. A short statement of the main issues is available in this video. For more literature on the issues at stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of documentation and discussion. You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access." This is not the case, unfortunately. Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South Asia-related journals that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, etc.) are very expensive indeed for readers whose universities don't pay exorbitant annual license fees. The video above makes some of these points about half way through. Best,Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk, Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, Department of History and Classics,University of Alberta, Canada. South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a > commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal > Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an Indological > topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor journal; since > I suspected that this is one of those predatory publishers we read > about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of principle I favor > publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I decided not to > respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, > apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has > decided to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of > their links and now see that authors wishing to publish in the > journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article > Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether editors receive any > payment for their work, but since no mention of such payment has been > made I expect there is none. > > > > > > I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether > there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. > More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published work > and paid APC to get your work published. I have never > been asked to do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to > do so as long as there are still fine journals which don't ask any > such fees and impose very low barriers to access. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Arlo Griffiths > > EFEO, Paris > > > > > > ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED > > > > > > > > Dear Professor Griffiths, > > > > > > We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal > > > Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our > > > suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature > > > in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication > > > record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a > > > collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the > > > field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline > > > our request: > > > https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG > > > > > > As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the > > > Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final > > > decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with > > > our editorial team at MDPI. > > > > > > The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue > > > website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with > > > invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated > > > with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, > > > contacting authors, and professional production before publication. > > > > > > RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, > > > publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. > > > It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and > > > in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the > > > top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. > > > Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. > > > > > > At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may > > > access an inventory of our special topics issues: > > > > > > Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington > > > DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, > > > Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) > > > Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University > > > and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the > > > Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) > > > Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke > > > University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience > > > (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford > > > University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) > > > (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, > > > San Diego State University) > > > > > > Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like > > > further details, or have any questions. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) This may also be of interest: UC terminates subscriptions with world?s largest scientific publisher in pushfor open access to publicly funded research UC Office of the PresidentThursday, February 28, 2019 https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-terminates- subscriptions-worlds-largest-scientific-publisher-push-open-access- publicly Best, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Mon Mar 25 04:28:15 2019 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 19 17:28:15 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [#2] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1553488095.4687.24.camel@fastmail.com> [Repost -- My previous HTML reply seems to have had trouble.] This may also be of interest: UC terminates subscriptions with world?s largest scientific publisher in push for open access to publicly funded research UC Office of the President Thursday, February 28, 2019 https://bit.ly/2IGVfLf or the original: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-terminates-subscri ptions-worlds-largest-scientific-publisher-push-open-access-publicly Best, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY Reply-to: Dominik Wujastyk To: Arlo Griffiths Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:34:28 -0600 I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over the years. I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword ("journal", "copyright", "open access" etc.). Opinion pieces include: How open is open-access Business models for OA journals Crowd-sourcing peer-review What's the point of an academic journal? To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an processing fee was required for OA publication. Brill charged ?400, if I recall, for an article in Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. Springer charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA paper in the International Journal of Hindu Studies. At that time, these fees were paid by my employer, who had a budget for this. My research contract included a clause saying that all my publications had to be Open Access. There are many reasons why OA is a good thing. A short statement of the main issues is available in this video. For more literature on the issues at stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of documentation and discussion. You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access." This is not the case, unfortunately. Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South Asia-related journals that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, etc.) are very expensive indeed for readers whose universities don't pay exorbitant annual license fees. The video above makes some of these points about half way through. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk, Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, Department of History and Classics, University of Alberta, Canada. South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a > commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal > Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an Indological > topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor journal; since I > suspected that this is one of those predatory publishers we read > about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of principle I favor > publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I decided not to > respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, > apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has > decided to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of > their links and now see that authors wishing to publish in the > journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article > Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether editors receive any > payment for their work, but since no mention of such payment has been > made I expect there is none. > > I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether > there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. > More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published work > and paid APC to get your work published. I have never been asked to > do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as > there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and > impose very low barriers to access. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO, Paris > > ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED > > Dear Professor Griffiths, > > We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal > Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our > suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature > in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication > record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a > collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the > field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline > our request: > https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG > > As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the > Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final > decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with > our editorial team at MDPI. > > The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue > website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with > invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated > with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, > contacting authors, and professional production before publication. > > RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, > publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. > It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and > in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the > top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. > Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. > > At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may > access an inventory of our special topics issues: > > Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington > DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, > Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) > Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University > and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the > Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) > Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke > University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience > (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford > University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) > (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, > San Diego State University) > > Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like > further details, or have any questions. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 08:42:12 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 19 09:42:12 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Javadekar Restricts PhD topics in Indian Universities Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Those who follow news on higher education in India may be interested in Prakash Javadekar restricting PhD topics to subjects in line with "national priorities." The new directive has prompted at least one Indian academic to resign already. Some of you may remembers Javadekar, who inaugurated the World Sanskrit Conference last year in Vancouver. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 11:00:26 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 19 16:30:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Javadekar Restricts PhD topics in Indian Universities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/explained/the-controversy-behind-government-new-phd-guideline-5640542/lite/ On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 2:13 PM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Those who follow news on higher education in India may be interested in > Prakash Javadekar restricting PhD topics > > to subjects in line with "national priorities." The new directive has > prompted at least one Indian academic to resign > > already. > > Some of you may remembers Javadekar, who inaugurated the World Sanskrit > Conference last year in Vancouver. > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Mar 25 13:14:29 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 19 06:14:29 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????????????: ????????????: ????????: ? ??????????: ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? Described beautifully by all letters from "a" to "ha," Krishna, possessing all colors, celebrates Holi in Gokula. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shenyiming.bas at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 20:25:59 2019 From: shenyiming.bas at gmail.com (Yiming) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 19 21:25:59 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IIGRS11, 1-2 Nov 2019, Oxford Message-ID: Dear list, We are happy to announce that the 11th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS) will be hosted at Wolfson College, University of Oxford, on 1-2 November 2019. We invite all Indology graduate students as well as early-career researchers (who have completed their doctoral studies within the past five years) to submit a paper. The selection committee will consider all papers dealing with any Indological subject based on the study of texts in their original language. If you wish to present a paper, please submit a 300-word abstract (described below) to iigrsuk at googlemail.com by 25th of May 2019. You will be notified about the outcome of your application in mid-June. Abstracts should not exceed 300 words and should include: 1) Your name and institution + indication of research degrees and positions held. 2) The title of your paper. 3) A broad indication of its subject area. 4) An outline of its contents. Please send your abstract in both Word and PDF format. If your abstract is accepted, you will be allotted a slot of no more than thirty minutes, twenty minutes of which should be devoted to delivering your paper, and ten minutes for questions and discussion. The participants should arrange travel and accommodation on their own. To help with covering travel and accommodation costs, we will provide bursaries (?75-100 per person) to be claimed upon submission of receipts. There will be no conference registration fees. If you are teaching at an institution, we would be very grateful if you could circulate this information among your students. For more details, please visit https://iigrs.wordpress.com/ We will be more than happy to answer any questions sent to the following email address: iigrsuk at googlemail.com Best wishes, IIGRS11 Oxford Yiming Shen and Valters Negribs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ambapradeep at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 03:11:34 2019 From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 08:41:34 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 2nd CFP for International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium Message-ID: Dear list members, Apologies for cross posting. Please consider contributing papers and distribute to your colleagues who may be interested Best, Amba Kulkarni ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6th International Sanskrit Computational Linguistics Symposium (6th ISCLS) Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, West Bengal, India -- 721302 October 23-25, 2019 Website: https://iscls.github.io/ Convenor: Pawan Goyal, IIT Kharagpur ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CALL for papers Dear Colleagues, FULL papers are invited on original and unpublished research on various aspects of Computational Linguistics and Digital Humanities related to Sanskrit (Classical and Vedic), Prakrit, Pali, Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, etc. Important Dates: Submission Deadline: May 10th, 2019 Notification of Acceptance: July 5th, 2019 Camera Ready Version Due: July 25th, 2019 You are requested to submit your research paper using the EasyChair Submission Portal: https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=6thiscls. The submissions should not exceed 20 pages, and will be reviewed by the program committee members, as listed below. To prepare your submission, please use the latex source files listed on the website, and follow the instructions provided there. The areas of interest include, but are not limited to: * Sanskrit Computational linguistics: with extensions to related ancient Indian languages (Vedic, Pali, Prakrits) - Digital lexicons, thesauri and wordnets - Computational phonology and morphology - Syntactic analysis - Prose order normalisation - Parsing - Structural semantics - Machine Translation - Automatic analysis of Sanskrit corpus - Machine Learning approaches to computational processing - Navya Ny?ya technical language processing and semantic analysis - Information extraction * Sh?stric Sanskrit texts and computation - Computer modeling and simulation of Paninian and other traditional grammars - Theories of ??bdabodha and Sanskrit computational processing * Sanskrit digital libraries management: - Tools for acquisition & maintenance of Sanskrit digital corpus - Library crawlers or search tools in Sanskrit corpus - Incorporation of grammatical information in Sanskrit corpus - Automated tools for evaluation of Sanskrit poetry, e.g., meter recognition/verification, ala?k?ra identification, ?le?a analysis - Software tools for phylogenic studies, intertextuality management, establishment of critical editions, and other philological applications - OCR recognition of romanized Sanskrit as well as ancient Indian scripts - Digital cataloguing of manuscripts - Digital font creation, rendering of phonetic features, etc. - Encoding procedures and workflows - Presentation and transformation of TEI data - Named entity recognition - Collaborative annotation and editing - Alignment of text with images (including manuscripts) - User interface design * Misc computer applications relevant to Sanskrit: - Software tools for teaching Sanskrit - Sanskrit speech recognition and synthesis - Social media applications for Sanskrit dissemination Programme Committee Stefan Baums (University of Munich) Laxmidhar Behera (IIT Kanpur) Pawan Goyal (IIT Kharagpur) Brendan Gillon (McGill University) Olivier Hellwig (University of Zurich) G?rard Huet (Inria Paris) Amba Kulkarni (University of Hyderabad) Malhar Kulkarni (IIT Bombay) Pavan Kumar Satuluri (Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad) Girish Nath Jha (JNU, Delhi) Andrew Ollett (Harvard University, Cambridge, MA) Dhaval Patel (Ahmedabad) Ganesh Ramakrishnan (IIT Bombay) Peter Scharf (IIIT Hyderabad) Srinivasa Varakhedi (KKSU, Ramtek) K Varalakshmi (Osmania University, Hyderabad) Web Chair: Amrith Krishna, IIT Kharagpur Previous Editions: INRIA Paris Rocquencourt (2007), Brown University, USA (2008), University of Hyderabad, India (2009), JNU, Delhi, India (2010) and IIT Bombay (2013) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Regards, Pawan Goyal Assistant Professor Department of Computer Science and Engineering Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, West Bengal, India -- 721302 -- ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Professor & Head Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://scl.samsaadhanii.in http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl http://tdil-dc.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Mar 26 05:57:34 2019 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 05:57:34 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Dominik, and thanks to other who have answered on the list or privately. Dominik: why limit yourself to British examples and deny my claim that there are journals that are both "fine" and "impose very low barriers to access"? In my opinion, the way ZDMG and French journals like BEFEO and Arts Asiatiques make their content available through entirely unrestricted public services (respectively MENADOC and PERSEE) is a nice example, notwithstanding some flaws in execution among which some years of backlog, and I don't understand why you choose to ignore it. All of the mentioned journals also deposit on JSTOR, in the two French cases with a delay of one year after paper publication. I realize that JSTOR is not universally accessible without fee, but it is to many in our field and in that sense the barrier is still rather low. Should we agree on this point, then JAOS (whose contents immediately become available on JSTOR) would become another good example of the kind of journals I was alluding to. If I am not mistaken, publishing in those journals will satisfy the current directives of the European Research Council on open access to publicly funded research, and has the advantage of costing nothing to scholar and reader alike. Perhaps superfluously: these words in favor of some old school journals don't mean that I appreciate any less the wonderful work that is being done by you and others for opening pathways to open access publication in natively online journals that still maintain the highest standards of quality control on contents and layout and do so for free. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: Dominik Wujastyk Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 2:34 AM To: Arlo Griffiths Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over the years. I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword ("journal", "copyright", "open access" etc.). Opinion pieces include: * How open is open-access * Business models for OA journals * Crowd-sourcing peer-review * What's the point of an academic journal? To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an processing fee was required for OA publication. Brill charged ?400, if I recall, for an article in Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. Springer charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA paper in the International Journal of Hindu Studies. At that time, these fees were paid by my employer, who had a budget for this. My research contract included a clause saying that all my publications had to be Open Access. There are many reasons why OA is a good thing. A short statement of the main issues is available in this video. For more literature on the issues at stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of documentation and discussion. You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access." This is not the case, unfortunately. Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South Asia-related journals that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, etc.) are very expensive indeed for readers whose universities don't pay exorbitant annual license fees. The video above makes some of these points about half way through. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an Indological topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor journal; since I suspected that this is one of those predatory publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has decided to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of their links and now see that authors wishing to publish in the journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether editors receive any payment for their work, but since no mention of such payment has been made I expect there is none. I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published work and paid APC to get your work published. I have never been asked to do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to access. Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths EFEO, Paris ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED Dear Professor Griffiths, We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline our request: https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with our editorial team at MDPI. The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, contacting authors, and professional production before publication. RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may access an inventory of our special topics issues: Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, San Diego State University) Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like further details, or have any questions. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at Tue Mar 26 07:44:47 2019 From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 08:44:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The examples you cite, Arlo, are all academic journals associated with learned and professional societies. For some of their income at least, they rely on subscription models (especially library subscriptions, some also including annual membership fees by individuals). These models work with a "moving wall" of 12-24 months, which many consider necessary to maintain a motivation for subscriptions and hence bring in the funds required to produce journals. In the EU, the initiative "Plan S", supported by various governments and research funding bodies (including ERC!), pushes for instant open access publication without a moving wall. There is a grace period until 2023, but the goal is definitely universal instant open access. This certainly exerts pressures on learned societies to find alternative funding models; I wouldn't be surprised if author processing fees start being introduced more widely. With best regards, Birgit Kellner Am 26.03.19 um 06:57 schrieb Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY: > Thank you Dominik, and thanks to other who have answered on the list > or privately. > > Dominik: why limit yourself to British examples and deny my claim that > there are journals that are both "fine" and "impose very low barriers > to access"? In my opinion, the way ZDMG and French journals like BEFEO > and Arts Asiatiques make their content available through entirely > unrestricted public services (respectively MENADOC and PERSEE) is a > nice example, notwithstanding some flaws in execution among which some > years of backlog, and I don't understand why you choose to ignore it. > All of the mentioned journals also deposit on JSTOR, in the two French > cases with a delay of one year after paper publication. I realize that > JSTOR is not universally accessible without fee, but it is to many in > our field and in that sense the barrier is still rather low. Should we > agree on this point, then JAOS (whose contents immediately become > available on JSTOR) would become another good example of the kind of > journals I was alluding to. If I am not mistaken, publishing in those > journals will satisfy the current directives of the European Research > Council on open access to publicly funded research, and has the > advantage of costing nothing to scholar and reader alike. > > Perhaps superfluously: these words in favor of some old school > journals don't mean that I appreciate any less the wonderful work that > is being done by you and others for opening pathways to open access > publication in natively online journals that still maintain the > highest standards of quality control on contents and layout and do so > for free. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Dominik Wujastyk > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 2:34 AM > *To:* Arlo Griffiths > *Cc:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher > MDPI > I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over > the years.? I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword > ("journal", "copyright", "open access" etc.).? Opinion pieces include: > > * How open is open-access > > * Business models for OA journals > > * Crowd-sourcing peer-review > > * What's the point of an academic journal? > > > To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an > processing fee was required for OA publication.? Brill charged ?400, > if I recall, for an article in /Asian Medicine: Tradition and > Modernity. /Springer charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA > paper in the /International Journal of Hindu Studies./ At that time, > these fees were paid by my employer, who had a budget for this.? My > research contract included a clause saying that all my publications > had to be Open Access. > > There are many reasons why OA is a good thing.? A short statement of > the main issues is available in this video > .? For more literature on the issues at > stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of documentation and > discussion. > > You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees > and impose very low barriers to access."? This is not the case, > unfortunately. Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South > Asia-related journals that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge > University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, etc.) are very expensive indeed for > readers whose universities don't pay exorbitant annual license fees.? > The video above makes some of these points about half way through. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a > commercial company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access > journal Religions as guest editor for a special issue on an > Indological topic. Since I had never heard of publisher nor > journal; since I suspected that this is one of those predatory > publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of > principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit > journals, I decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends > me a gentle reminder, apparently showing that at least it's not a > mere machine which has decided to solicit my assistance. This time > I did click on one of their links and now see that authors wishing > to publish in the journal Religions need to pay an amount of 550 > CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't know whether > editors receive any payment for their work, but since no mention > of such payment has been made I expect there is none. > > I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether > there might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. > More generally, I wonder how many of you have actually published > work and paid APC to get your work published. I have never been > asked to do so, and wonder why anyone might feel compelled to do > so as long as there are still fine journals which don't ask any > such fees and impose very low barriers to access. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO, Paris > > ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED > > Dear Professor Griffiths, > > We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal > Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our > suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature > in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication > record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a > collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the > field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline > our request: > https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG > > As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the > Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final > decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with > our editorial team at MDPI. > > The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue > website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with > invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated > with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, > contacting authors, and professional production before publication. > > RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, > publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. > It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and > in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the > top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. > Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. > > At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may > access an inventory of our special topics issues: > > Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington > DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, > Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) > Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University > and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the > Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) > Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke > University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience > (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford > University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) > (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, > San Diego State University) > > Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like > further details, or have any questions. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the list's > managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- ---- Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner Director Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 A-1020 Vienna Austria Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 08:24:43 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 10:24:43 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies for being unable to keep out of this, but Birgit and I have discussed this earlier in another context, so I thought I'd chime in: there are serious discussions underway in Europe about alternatives to the presently proposed Project S scheme. However, all of those I have heard about deal only with European publication outlets (and I'm not sure how something like the EFEO fits in, I admit), but this still leaves the threat of a significant divide between EU and non-EU scholars, or better put, EU-funded and non-EU-funded scholarship. We should recall here also that some journals published by societies will publish only if the author is a member of the society (I recall this from years ago when I had to join the AAR to publish a paper) and this too is a form of an author-paying model. I think it is important that all of us think about what we want to do ourselves to assure maximum visibililty for scholarship, on the one hand, but also to realize that we are less than marginal players in a game run by the hard sciences, and for the moment, we can think as much as we like, but it would perhaps be more economical to wait and see how things shake out before investing too much time and energy in our own solutions, which are unlikely to be of interest to those who are actually making the rules. I'm not saying give up, just that things are extremely fluid right now, and waiting is likely to be a wise policy. Jonathan On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:45 AM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The examples you cite, Arlo, are all academic journals associated with > learned and professional societies. For some of their income at least, they > rely on subscription models (especially library subscriptions, some also > including annual membership fees by individuals). These models work with a > "moving wall" of 12-24 months, which many consider necessary to maintain a > motivation for subscriptions and hence bring in the funds required to > produce journals. > > > > In the EU, the initiative "Plan S", supported by various governments and > research funding bodies (including ERC!), pushes for instant open access > publication without a moving wall. There is a grace period until 2023, but > the goal is definitely universal instant open access. This certainly exerts > pressures on learned societies to find alternative funding models; I > wouldn't be surprised if author processing fees start being introduced more > widely. > > > With best regards, > > > Birgit Kellner > > > > > Am 26.03.19 um 06:57 schrieb Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY: > > Thank you Dominik, and thanks to other who have answered on the list or > privately. > > Dominik: why limit yourself to British examples and deny my claim that > there are journals that are both "fine" and "impose very low barriers to > access"? In my opinion, the way ZDMG and French journals like BEFEO and > Arts Asiatiques make their content available through entirely unrestricted > public services (respectively MENADOC and PERSEE) is a nice example, > notwithstanding some flaws in execution among which some years of backlog, > and I don't understand why you choose to ignore it. All of the mentioned > journals also deposit on JSTOR, in the two French cases with a delay of one > year after paper publication. I realize that JSTOR is not universally > accessible without fee, but it is to many in our field and in that sense > the barrier is still rather low. Should we agree on this point, then JAOS > (whose contents immediately become available on JSTOR) would become another > good example of the kind of journals I was alluding to. If I am not > mistaken, publishing in those journals will satisfy the current directives > of the European Research Council on open access to publicly funded > research, and has the advantage of costing nothing to scholar and reader > alike. > > Perhaps superfluously: these words in favor of some old school journals > don't mean that I appreciate any less the wonderful work that is being done > by you and others for opening pathways to open access publication in > natively online journals that still maintain the highest standards of > quality control on contents and layout and do so for free. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dominik Wujastyk > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 2:34 AM > *To:* Arlo Griffiths > *Cc:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI > > I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over the > years. I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword ("journal", > "copyright", "open access" etc.). Opinion pieces include: > > - How open is open-access > > - Business models for OA journals > > - Crowd-sourcing peer-review > > - What's the point of an academic journal? > > > To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an processing > fee was required for OA publication. Brill charged ?400, if I recall, for > an article in *Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. *Springer > charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA paper in the *International > Journal of Hindu Studies.* At that time, these fees were paid by my > employer, who had a budget for this. My research contract included a > clause saying that all my publications had to be Open Access. > > There are many reasons why OA is a good thing. A short statement of the > main issues is available in this video . > For more literature on the issues at stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of > documentation and discussion. > > You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and > impose very low barriers to access." This is not the case, unfortunately. > Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South Asia-related journals > that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, > etc.) are very expensive indeed for readers whose universities don't pay > exorbitant annual license fees. The video above makes some of these points > about half way through. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a commercial > company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal Religions as > guest editor for a special issue on an Indological topic. Since I had never > heard of publisher nor journal; since I suspected that this is one of those > predatory publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of > principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I > decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, > apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has decided > to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of their links and > now see that authors wishing to publish in the journal Religions need to > pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't > know whether editors receive any payment for their work, but since no > mention of such payment has been made I expect there is none. > > I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether there > might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. More generally, > I wonder how many of you have actually published work and paid APC to get > your work published. I have never been asked to do so, and wonder why > anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as there are still fine > journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to > access. > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > EFEO, Paris > > ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED > > Dear Professor Griffiths, > > We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal > Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our > suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature > in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication > record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a > collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the > field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline > our request: > https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG > > As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the > Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final > decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with > our editorial team at MDPI. > > The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue > website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with > invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated > with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, > contacting authors, and professional production before publication. > > RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, > publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. > It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and > in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the > top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. > Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. > > At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may > access an inventory of our special topics issues: > > Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington > DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, > Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) > Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University > and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the > Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) > Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke > University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience > (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford > University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) > (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, > San Diego State University) > > Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like > further details, or have any questions. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > ---- > Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner > Director > Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia > Austrian Academy of Sciences > Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 > A-1020 Vienna > Austria > Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 > Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il Tue Mar 26 11:55:35 2019 From: eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il (Eviatar Shulman) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 13:55:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Post-doctoral position in Buddhist Studies at the Hebrew University Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues, The program for Buddhist Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (HUJI) is pleased to announce a new post-doctoral position at the university for the academic years of 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. The position is for a full academic year, beginning in October 2019 and continuing through September 2020, and is potentially renewable for a second year. The position has been made possible through the generosity of the Khyentse Foundation. The main requirements of the position are to conduct high quality research in Buddhist Studies and to contribute to the life of the program. The latter will include ? (a) offering one graduate level two-point credit course in the field of Buddhist Studies: at HUJI a two-point credit course is offered throughout one semester, i.e. 14 weekly meetings of 90 minutes each, in either the fall or spring terms. (b) to offer support for our graduate students in their research, mainly through advanced reading in Buddhist languages. (c) to participate in the activities of the program. Advanced knowledge of at least one classical Buddhist language is a must. Our main needs today are in Tibetan or Chinese Buddhism, but scholars from any field of Buddhist Studies are encouraged to apply. The scholarship will be of 33,000$ distributed evenly over twelve months, which should allow for relatively comfortable living in Jerusalem over the period of the scholarship. In order to apply, please send the following documents to buddhiststudies at mail.huji.ac.il: (a) a letter of intent and research program (up to 4 pages); (b) an updated CV; (c) one reading sample from the applicant?s publications; (d) two letters of recommendation should be sent directly by the recommenders, stating in the title that they are a recommendations for the applicant. The final date for the submission of applications is April 30, 2019. Results will be announced by the end of May at the very latest. For any further details or questions, please feel free to contact Dr. Eviatar Shulman at Eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il. With best regards, Eviatar Shulman -- Dr. Eviatar Shulman Senior Lecturer Department of Religious Studies Department of Asian Studies The Hebrew University of Jerusalem http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/religion/buddhism-and-eastern-religions/rethinking-buddha-early-buddhist-philosophy-meditative-perception -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Mar 26 13:00:53 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 06:00:53 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????????????? ????????? ??????? ?: ? ? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????????: ??????? Wearing a garland of letters from "a" to "ha," the son of Nanda happily dances in Gokula. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 14:28:36 2019 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 10:28:36 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61C2E1C8-90B4-4BF9-81C5-8896720C17D0@gmail.com> This is no longer just a UK or Euro issue, but starting to affect US publishing as well. A recent visit to the University of California Press / www.ucpress.edu site revealed that select books are available for free PDF download. UC Press has started open-access / Creative commons publishing for some titles, and using https://www.luminosoa.org/ as the medium for that. On https://www.luminosoa.org/ it states: The UC Press Model We believe in sharing costs between all parties who benefit from publication?author or institution, publisher, and libraries. In our model no one entity carries the whole burden, making it sustainable for the long haul. The selection and review processes remain the same as in our traditional program; the same exacting criteria and peer review standards apply. Creative Commons licensing options allow authors to control how their work is used. ? and on https://www.luminosoa.org/site/for_authors/ they explain: The Best of Both Worlds Luminos combines the reach and flexibility of open digital with the option of traditional print. For reviewers and award committees who ask for ink on paper, we?ll make print copies available. And anyone else who wants to hold your book in their hands can easily purchase a print copy. A Sustainable Model Monographs are costly to publish. When you publish in the Open Access Luminos program, the burden is shared across the academic community. That means the baseline $15,000 publishing cost is broken down into manageable amounts for the researcher, the university, the library, and us. Any surplus from library memberships and print sales goes into an author waiver fund, so we can nurture future work. ? For more details: https://www.luminosoa.org/site/faqs/#author-faqs-open-access Among the FAQs: Author FAQs: Publishing Costs Q: How much will my institution need to contribute? <> The author will be asked to secure $7,500 either from their home institution and/or another independent funding source. For faculty in the University of California system the reduced amount is $5,000. This subsidy requirement is for titles of no more than 90,000 words and 25 images. Additional subsidy costs will be required for titles exceeding this length, and/or those with heavy illustration programs, multimedia components or other complexity. There are a number of potential funding sources beyond for authors?s ??institutional contribution (such as departmental/Dean?s funds, the library?s OA fund, campus grants etc.). Please discuss those options with your UC Press editor. Q: What if my institution doesn?t have money available to contribute? <> Authors or institutions who don?t have sufficient funds available to them may be eligible for our Author Waiver Fund. Q: Will the availability of subvention affect your decision to publish a book? <> Many university presses already require subvention for scholarly monographs. But the availability of subvention does not affect UC Press? decision to publish any book. While the Luminos program will require a Title Publication Fee, books that meet UC Press? rigorous standards of peer review but do not have access to funding to support this may be able to be published traditionally. ? This is becoming the new publishing model. The US is adopting an european model, shifting the cost of publishing to authors and their institutions. Dan Lusthaus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de Tue Mar 26 15:29:55 2019 From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 16:29:55 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Post-doc position Buddhist Studies at Hebrew University of Jerusalem Message-ID: <5E33957D-87D2-4998-A8FE-12407CC3C726@uni-tuebingen.de> The program for Buddhist Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (HUJI) is pleased to announce a new post-doctoral position at the university for the academic years of 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. The position is for a full academic year, beginning in October 2019 and continuing through September 2020, and is potentially renewable for a second year. The position has been made possible through the generosity of the Khyentse Foundation. The main requirements of the position are to conduct high quality research in Buddhist Studies and to contribute to the life of the program. The latter will include ? (a) offering one graduate level two-point credit course in the field of Buddhist Studies: at HUJI a two-point credit course is offered throughout one semester, i.e. 14 weekly meetings of 90 minutes each, in either the fall or spring terms. (b) to offer support for our graduate students in their research, mainly through advanced reading in Buddhist languages. (c) to participate in the activities of the program. Advanced knowledge of at least one classical Buddhist language is a must. Our main needs today are in Tibetan or Chinese Buddhism, but scholars from any field of Buddhist Studies are encouraged to apply. The scholarship will be of 33,000$ distributed evenly over twelve months, which should allow for relatively comfortable living in Jerusalem over the period of the scholarship. In order to apply, please send the following documents to buddhiststudies at mail.huji.ac.il : (a) a letter of intent and research program (up to 4 pages); (b) an updated CV; (c) one reading sample from the applicant?s publications; (d) two letters of recommendation should be sent directly by the recommenders, stating in the title that they are a recommendations for the applicant. The final date for the submission of applications is April 30, 2019. Results will be announced by the end of May at the very latest. For any further details or questions, please feel free to contact Dr. Eviatar Shulman at Eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il . With best regards, Eviatar Shulman -- Dr. Eviatar Shulman Senior Lecturer Department of Religious Studies Department of Asian Studies The Hebrew University of Jerusalem http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/religion/buddhism-and-eastern-religions/rethinking-buddha-early-buddhist-philosophy-meditative-perception > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 16:43:06 2019 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 12:43:06 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And there are other ways we "pay" without knowing it at all...all "free" publishers (as far as my experience goes) require that we, as authors, assign copyright to them. This means we actually lose our right to distribute them, to reprint, etc. (whether we hold to this or not). In fact, if not for jstor, I would not have access to any of my old articles, reviews, etc. in electronic form. (And, here, too there are limits, as I believe the copyright transfers to jstor). Herman Tull On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 4:26 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Apologies for being unable to keep out of this, but Birgit and I have > discussed this earlier in another context, so I thought I'd chime in: there > are serious discussions underway in Europe about alternatives to the > presently proposed Project S scheme. However, all of those I have heard > about deal only with European publication outlets (and I'm not sure how > something like the EFEO fits in, I admit), but this still leaves the threat > of a significant divide between EU and non-EU scholars, or better put, > EU-funded and non-EU-funded scholarship. > We should recall here also that some journals published by societies will > publish only if the author is a member of the society (I recall this from > years ago when I had to join the AAR to publish a paper) and this too is a > form of an author-paying model. I think it is important that all of us > think about what we want to do ourselves to assure maximum visibililty for > scholarship, on the one hand, but also to realize that we are less than > marginal players in a game run by the hard sciences, and for the moment, we > can think as much as we like, but it would perhaps be more economical to > wait and see how things shake out before investing too much time and energy > in our own solutions, which are unlikely to be of interest to those who are > actually making the rules. I'm not saying give up, just that things are > extremely fluid right now, and waiting is likely to be a wise policy. > Jonathan > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:45 AM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> The examples you cite, Arlo, are all academic journals associated with >> learned and professional societies. For some of their income at least, they >> rely on subscription models (especially library subscriptions, some also >> including annual membership fees by individuals). These models work with a >> "moving wall" of 12-24 months, which many consider necessary to maintain a >> motivation for subscriptions and hence bring in the funds required to >> produce journals. >> >> >> >> In the EU, the initiative "Plan S", supported by various governments and >> research funding bodies (including ERC!), pushes for instant open access >> publication without a moving wall. There is a grace period until 2023, but >> the goal is definitely universal instant open access. This certainly exerts >> pressures on learned societies to find alternative funding models; I >> wouldn't be surprised if author processing fees start being introduced more >> widely. >> >> >> With best regards, >> >> >> Birgit Kellner >> >> >> >> >> Am 26.03.19 um 06:57 schrieb Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY: >> >> Thank you Dominik, and thanks to other who have answered on the list or >> privately. >> >> Dominik: why limit yourself to British examples and deny my claim that >> there are journals that are both "fine" and "impose very low barriers to >> access"? In my opinion, the way ZDMG and French journals like BEFEO and >> Arts Asiatiques make their content available through entirely unrestricted >> public services (respectively MENADOC and PERSEE) is a nice example, >> notwithstanding some flaws in execution among which some years of backlog, >> and I don't understand why you choose to ignore it. All of the mentioned >> journals also deposit on JSTOR, in the two French cases with a delay of one >> year after paper publication. I realize that JSTOR is not universally >> accessible without fee, but it is to many in our field and in that sense >> the barrier is still rather low. Should we agree on this point, then JAOS >> (whose contents immediately become available on JSTOR) would become another >> good example of the kind of journals I was alluding to. If I am not >> mistaken, publishing in those journals will satisfy the current directives >> of the European Research Council on open access to publicly funded >> research, and has the advantage of costing nothing to scholar and reader >> alike. >> >> Perhaps superfluously: these words in favor of some old school journals >> don't mean that I appreciate any less the wonderful work that is being done >> by you and others for opening pathways to open access publication in >> natively online journals that still maintain the highest standards of >> quality control on contents and layout and do so for free. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Arlo Griffiths >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Dominik Wujastyk >> *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 2:34 AM >> *To:* Arlo Griffiths >> *Cc:* indology at list.indology.info >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >> MDPI >> >> I have written about this kind of topic quite a bit on my blog, over the >> years. I am afraid I must ask you to search it by keyword ("journal", >> "copyright", "open access" etc.). Opinion pieces include: >> >> - How open is open-access >> >> - Business models for OA journals >> >> - Crowd-sourcing peer-review >> >> - What's the point of an academic journal? >> >> >> To answer your question, I've twice published articles where an >> processing fee was required for OA publication. Brill charged ?400, if I >> recall, for an article in *Asian Medicine: Tradition and Modernity. *Springer >> charged ?2000 or ?3000 (I can't recall) for an OA paper in the *International >> Journal of Hindu Studies.* At that time, these fees were paid by my >> employer, who had a budget for this. My research contract included a >> clause saying that all my publications had to be Open Access. >> >> There are many reasons why OA is a good thing. A short statement of the >> main issues is available in this video . >> For more literature on the issues at stake, the DOAJ.org hosts a lot of >> documentation and discussion. >> >> You say, "there are still fine journals which don't ask any such fees and >> impose very low barriers to access." This is not the case, unfortunately. >> Yes, they may be free for authors, but the many South Asia-related journals >> that have been vacuumed up by Cambridge University Press (JRAS, BSOAS, >> etc.) are very expensive indeed for readers whose universities don't pay >> exorbitant annual license fees. The video above makes some of these points >> about half way through. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> , >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> , >> University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> sas.ualberta.ca >> >> >> >> On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:50, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I had received a few weeks ago an offer (see below) to help a commercial >> company called MDPI that publishes an Open Access journal Religions as >> guest editor for a special issue on an Indological topic. Since I had never >> heard of publisher nor journal; since I suspected that this is one of those >> predatory publishers we read about a lot nowadays; and since as a matter of >> principle I favor publishing in established not-for-profit journals, I >> decided not to respond. Now the same publisher sends me a gentle reminder, >> apparently showing that at least it's not a mere machine which has decided >> to solicit my assistance. This time I did click on one of their links and >> now see that authors wishing to publish in the journal Religions need to >> pay an amount of 550 CHF in 'Article Processing Charges' (APC); I don't >> know whether editors receive any payment for their work, but since no >> mention of such payment has been made I expect there is none. >> >> I am curious whether others have received such offers, and whether there >> might be reason not to be as negatively prejudiced as I am. More generally, >> I wonder how many of you have actually published work and paid APC to get >> your work published. I have never been asked to do so, and wonder why >> anyone might feel compelled to do so as long as there are still fine >> journals which don't ask any such fees and impose very low barriers to >> access. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Arlo Griffiths >> EFEO, Paris >> >> ---- QUOTE FROM EMAIL RECEIVED >> >> Dear Professor Griffiths, >> >> We invite you to join us as Guest Editor for the open access journal >> Religions (ISSN 2077-1444), to establish a Special Issue. Our >> suggested topic is ?Exploring Hindu and Buddhist religious literature >> in Sanskrit?. You have been invited based on your strong publication >> record in this area, and we hope to work with you to establish a >> collection of papers that will be of interest to scholars in the >> field. Please click on the following link to either accept or decline >> our request: >> https://susy.mdpi.com/guest_editor/invitation/process/282259/6TEH3ZRG >> >> As Guest Editor, we would ask you to define the aim and scope of the >> Special Issue, assist in inviting contributions, be the final >> decision-maker for articles after peer-review, and collaborate with >> our editorial team at MDPI. >> >> The editorial office will take care of setting up the Special Issue >> website, arranging for promotional material, assisting with >> invitations to contribute papers, and administrative tasks associated >> with peer-review, including inviting reviewers, collating reports, >> contacting authors, and professional production before publication. >> >> RELIGIONS is an international, open-access scholarly journal, >> publishing peer reviewed studies of religious thought and practice. >> It is indexed in A&HCI (Web of Science), ATLA Religion Database and >> in SCOPUS, which gave it a Citescore of 0.58 and listed it among the >> top 7% of the 389 religious studies journals SCOPUS surveyed in 2017. >> Our PDF downloads per month = 72,796+/-. >> >> At http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions/special_issues, you may >> access an inventory of our special topics issues: >> >> Religion and Violence (editor, John Esposito, Georgetown, Washington >> DC) Religion and Refugees (editors, Jin-Heong Jung, Frei Universitat, >> Berlin and Alexander Horstmann, Tallinn University, Estonia) >> Comparative Theology (editors, Francis Clooney, Harvard University >> and John Berthrong, Boston University) Christianity in China in the >> Twenty First Century (editor, Mark Toulouse, University of Toronto) >> Measures of Spirituality (editor, Arndt Bussing, Witten/Herdecke >> University, Germany) Transcendentalism and Religious Experience >> (editors, Kenneth S. Sacks, Brown University and Daniel Koch, Oxford >> University) The Society for Tantric Studies Proceedings (2016) >> (editor, Glen A. Hayes, Bloomfield College and Sthaneshwar Timalsina, >> San Diego State University) >> >> Please feel free to contact us if you are interested and would like >> further details, or have any questions. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> -- >> ---- >> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner >> Director >> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia >> Austrian Academy of Sciences >> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 >> A-1020 Vienna >> Austria >> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 >> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 17:41:19 2019 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 13:41:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8C79AB70-6DC6-4B35-A530-ABE2CAFC5338@gmail.com> Dear Herman, It is not well known, but publishers do not have automatic rights to the copyright once a book goes into a second printing. An author has to formally request the rights at that point, but since most of us are unaware of that right, we rarely do. Dan Lusthaus > On Mar 26, 2019, at 12:43 PM, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY wrote: > > And there are other ways we "pay" without knowing it at all...all "free" publishers (as far as my experience goes) require that we, as authors, assign copyright to them. This means we actually lose our right to distribute them, to reprint, etc. (whether we hold to this or not). In fact, if not for jstor, I would not have access to any of my old articles, reviews, etc. in electronic form. (And, here, too there are limits, as I believe the copyright transfers to jstor). > > Herman Tull -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgalasek at googlemail.com Tue Mar 26 18:21:25 2019 From: bgalasek at googlemail.com (Bruno Galasek) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 19 11:21:25 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF excerpt request Message-ID: Many thanks to Kathrin Holz (Uni Lausanne) and Frank Koehler (Uni Tuebingen) for offering their help and for sending an electronic scan of the pages I needed (P. Skilling, *Mahasutras*) to the "outer provinces!" I can only repeat what has been stated many times before here: What a wonderful platform and resource the Indology list is! -- Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. 4159 Walnut Dr Eureka, CA 95503, USA Cell: +1-203-507-0080 <212035070080> E-mail: bgalasek at pm.me https://independent.academia.edu/BrunoGalasekHul http://84000.co/about/translators/ https://btw.mangalamresearch.org/en-us/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Wed Mar 27 11:47:44 2019 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 19 12:47:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rigveda padas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5af7f0d3-75ed-ece7-0d9e-b222fdcf8d7c@gmx.de> Dear all, not sure if this is useful for anybody, but you can find the pada-split text of the RV along with the lexical analysis of each pada (not text line) here: https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/dcs/data/rigveda With a modest amount of programming one could, for instance, perform queries such as: "Show all stanzas where the second word in pada b is agni" etc. Error levels are described in the readme. If you find any other systematic (or unsystematic) errors in the data, I would be glad to get a hint. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, IVS Z?rich/SFB 991 D?sseldorf From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Mar 27 13:31:11 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 19 06:31:11 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ?????: ?????????? ???????????? ?? ??????? ? ????????? ????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????? All colors arise only from the color of Krishna, and during Holi they merge in the color of Krishna in the courtyard of Vraja. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Wed Mar 27 14:27:38 2019 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 19 15:27:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rigveda padas In-Reply-To: <5af7f0d3-75ed-ece7-0d9e-b222fdcf8d7c@gmx.de> Message-ID: Great! Thank you, Oliver! Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz ?r., 27 mar 2019 o 12:48 Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear all, > > not sure if this is useful for anybody, but you can find the pada-split > text of the RV along with the lexical analysis of each pada (not text > line) here: > > https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/dcs/data/rigveda > > With a modest amount of programming one could, for instance, perform > queries such as: "Show all stanzas where the second word in pada b is > agni" etc. > > Error levels are described in the readme. If you find any other > systematic (or unsystematic) errors in the data, I would be glad to get > a hint. > > Best, Oliver > > --- > Oliver Hellwig, IVS Z?rich/SFB 991 D?sseldorf > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 27 16:11:08 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 19 16:11:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: <8C79AB70-6DC6-4B35-A530-ABE2CAFC5338@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's really interesting that in this discussion none of us has actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn't ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay us for the work we've done. If scientific publishers ask scholars to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is wrong in the best-case scenario or they're criminals, plain and simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers shouldn't be run as businesses? I'm just throwing this idea into the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all-pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it shouldn't. ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University's Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Dan Lusthaus [mailto:yogacara at gmail.com] Sent: 26 March 2019 17:41 To: Herman Tull Cc: Jonathan Silk ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Dear Herman, It is not well known, but publishers do not have automatic rights to the copyright once a book goes into a second printing. An author has to formally request the rights at that point, but since most of us are unaware of that right, we rarely do. Dan Lusthaus On Mar 26, 2019, at 12:43 PM, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY > wrote: And there are other ways we "pay" without knowing it at all...all "free" publishers (as far as my experience goes) require that we, as authors, assign copyright to them. This means we actually lose our right to distribute them, to reprint, etc. (whether we hold to this or not). In fact, if not for jstor, I would not have access to any of my old articles, reviews, etc. in electronic form. (And, here, too there are limits, as I believe the copyright transfers to jstor). Herman Tull -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 17:10:22 2019 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 19 13:10:22 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2CF9F149-12CE-4631-A3FE-07EE7B6B8238@gmail.com> While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display by many, was clearly noticeable. Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy solution. The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. Dan > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote: > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all-pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it shouldn?t. > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.sweetman at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 20:46:10 2019 From: will.sweetman at gmail.com (Will Sweetman) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 09:46:10 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: <2CF9F149-12CE-4631-A3FE-07EE7B6B8238@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87d8aa31-f981-bd70-4a67-845acac3e4b6@gmail.com> The consequences of publishers' decisions to shift costs onto academics and their institutions can be seen in their financial results. See e.g., the results for the academic publishing division of Informa (owners of Taylor and Francis, among others): https://informa.com/investors/financial-summary/ For 2017, these show an adjusted operating profit of ?208million on revenue of ?530m, or an operating margin (i.e., profit) of an astonishing 39.2%. Not every academic publisher is this profitable, but then not every academic publisher charges the fees that Routledge and others in the Informa group do. Will -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Wed Mar 27 21:04:36 2019 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 19 21:04:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: <87d8aa31-f981-bd70-4a67-845acac3e4b6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190327220542.4cd9ab95a84374bf292bb7d5@ff.cuni.cz> For those interested in this problem, I recommend to watch this documentary: https://paywallthemovie.com/ Best, L. On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 09:46:10 +1300 Will Sweetman via INDOLOGY wrote: > The consequences of publishers' decisions to shift costs onto academics > and their institutions can be seen in their financial results. See e.g., > the results for the academic publishing division of Informa (owners of > Taylor and Francis, among others): > https://informa.com/investors/financial-summary/ > For 2017, these show an adjusted operating profit of ?208million on > revenue of ?530m, or an operating margin (i.e., profit) of an > astonishing 39.2%. Not every academic publisher is this profitable, but > then not every academic publisher charges the fees that Routledge and > others in the Informa group do. > > Will From kauzeya at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 23:03:46 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 01:03:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: <2CF9F149-12CE-4631-A3FE-07EE7B6B8238@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Dan I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. Jonathan On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It is > not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber pay you to > come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay hefty fees to go > to conferences to present our research. Soon we will all be paying to > publish our work through ?reputable? media. > > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The profit, of > course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny percentage of what the > book makes. The cost of producing a volume, which, once typeset (and some > of us end up doing camera-ready) is just the cost of paper, ink, and > delivery. E-versions, which don?t even cost that ? just server space ? are > now the same price as hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian > Studies) the decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display by > many, was clearly noticeable. > > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating departments > of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy solution. > > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. > > Dan > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has actually > pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t ask authors to > pay a fee for publication, they should actually *pay us* for the work > we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars to pay a fee for > publication it means that their business model is wrong in the best-case > scenario or they?re criminals, plain and simple. Maybe the reason for all > this is that scientific publishers shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just > throwing this idea into the arena, since it seems that the business-like > model is now all-pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where > it shouldn?t. > > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Wed Mar 27 23:38:23 2019 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 12:38:23 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1553729903.4900.24.camel@fastmail.com> Dear Jonathan, With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access edition to coincide with the initial print release. It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is available to borrow or to download: Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica Publishers. Borrow: http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& tab=catalogue&lang=en_US Download: http://bit.ly/2FDVSki https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& tab=catalogue&lang=en_US Best, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY Reply-to: Jonathan Silk To: Dan Lusthaus Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 Dear Dan I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. Jonathan On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. > > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display > by many, was clearly noticeable. > > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy > solution. > > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. > > Dan > > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it > > shouldn?t. > > > > > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 07:42:50 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 09:42:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: <1553729903.4900.24.camel@fastmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Richard, First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the publication is Open Access. The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author asserts their moral rights in respect of this work,including their right to be identified as author" According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! Best, Jonathan On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica < rmahoney at fastmail.com> wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions > and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access > edition to coincide with the initial print release. > > It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open > Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- > Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. > > The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is > available to borrow or to download: > > Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a > critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. > Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica > Publishers. > > > Borrow: > > http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U > > https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay > ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& > tab=catalogue&lang=en_US > > > Download: > > http://bit.ly/2FDVSki > > https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay > ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& > tab=catalogue&lang=en_US > > > > > Best, Richard > > > -- > Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica > > Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ > T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 > r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org > > http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > Reply-to: Jonathan Silk > To: Dan Lusthaus > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher > MDPI > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 > > Dear Dan > I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to > point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions > to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are > materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this > that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have > experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an > article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to > last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive > assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a > weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable > options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. > Jonathan > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY t.indology.info> wrote: > > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It > > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber > > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay > > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will > > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. > > > > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as > > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material > > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the > > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The > > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny > > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, > > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is > > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t > > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as > > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the > > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the > > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display > > by many, was clearly noticeable. > > > > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing > > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating > > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy > > solution. > > > > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. > > > > Dan > > > > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > > > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has > > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t > > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay > > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars > > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is > > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and > > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers > > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into > > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- > > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it > > > shouldn?t. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > > or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at caren-dreyer.de Thu Mar 28 08:26:33 2019 From: mail at caren-dreyer.de (caren dreyer) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 09:26:33 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1CE65111-4319-4513-B7D8-E1A5F3DB40DA@caren-dreyer.de> Dear colleagues, The uploading and preparing books and articles for the use of others is a good thing. But it should coincide with ethic behaviour of users. Everyone wants every information on his/her desk and more often than not an author finds his researched results in transformed form or in summaries in articles of others - without mentioning a source. It is one thing to contribute to a common pool of knowledge it?s another to become quary for other people?s blocs. But this you all know. My further point is: one should not cursorily speak about open source and uploading disregarding the tremendous work it affords preparing material. Open source is ok for older publications but contemporary contributions should be put into the free will of the authors without stigmatizing them as protective. Caren Dreyer In Museum of Asian Art Berlin Sent from my phone. > Am 28.03.2019 um 08:42 schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY : > > Dear Richard, > First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the publication is Open Access. > The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: > "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author asserts their moral rights in respect of this work,including their right to be identified as author" > According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! > Best, Jonathan > >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica wrote: >> Dear Jonathan, >> >> With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions >> and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access >> edition to coincide with the initial print release. >> >> It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open >> Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- >> Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. >> >> The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is >> available to borrow or to download: >> >> Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a >> critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. >> Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica >> Publishers. >> >> >> Borrow: >> >> http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U >> >> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >> >> Download: >> >> http://bit.ly/2FDVSki >> >> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >> >> >> >> Best, Richard >> >> >> -- >> Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica >> >> Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ >> T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 >> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org >> >> http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >> Reply-to: Jonathan Silk >> To: Dan Lusthaus >> Cc: Indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >> MDPI >> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 >> >> Dear Dan >> I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to >> point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions >> to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are >> materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this >> that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have >> experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an >> article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to >> last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive >> assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a >> weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable >> options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. >> Jonathan >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > t.indology.info> wrote: >> > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It >> > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber >> > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay >> > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will >> > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. >> > >> > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as >> > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material >> > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the >> > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The >> > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny >> > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, >> > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is >> > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t >> > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as >> > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the >> > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the >> > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display >> > by many, was clearly noticeable. >> > >> > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing >> > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating >> > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy >> > solution. >> > >> > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. >> > >> > Dan >> > >> > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: >> > > >> > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has >> > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t >> > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay >> > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars >> > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is >> > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and >> > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers >> > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into >> > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- >> > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it >> > > shouldn?t. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> > committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> > or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 08:35:16 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 14:05:16 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am scared to to tell this, that is, not all the commercial publishing houses will be started only for profit or wealth maximization. But as already discussed profit making businesses are in plenty. I have started a publishing house 2 years back, to help the community. I was not happy with the "Research institutes" already performing. Because I am fed up seeing the bad "Directors" and of whom the tastes are shallow and a misconception about what isresearch and what is not. But my institute is not "not-for-profit organization" this is because I don't have much contacts with academic politicians and hence I will not be funded. Another reason being is The Companies Act is very strict and complex and bound by the rules to start non-profit organization. However the profit margin for all the works I do is very nominal. So that even a poorest Sanskrit student could be able to afford it. For instance (I am receiving many mails from Indology list asking the details about font availability, hence writing this wouldn't be irrelevant) The fonts are developed by the professionals and. And my I am selling them for just INR 1150 (One thousand one hundred and fifty) approx 14 USD and this payment is for life time and no hidden costs etc. (I am not sure whether USD 14 is cheap in all the countries, however in India 1150 for 3 font families with 3 weights each, is pretty cheap, because Unicode compatible fonts are not sold this cheap in the history) I will shortly publish my website and post the other projects like Raghuvamsa with Charitravardhana commentary, Apte Dictionary apps with zero errors, Sanskrit Thesaurus etc. But all these with very nominal price I sell them. The reason being for not having high profit motive is that, I have different plan for my bread and butter. This publishing is my passion. But still I sell them only, I need to reach the break even. I hope I will be supported by all. Krishna Prasad. On Thu 28 Mar, 2019, 1:14 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Richard, > First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is > interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the > publication is Open Access. > The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: > "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author asserts > their moral rights in respect of this work,including their right to be > identified as author" > According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the > publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact > Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it > certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! > Best, Jonathan > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica < > rmahoney at fastmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Jonathan, >> >> With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions >> and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access >> edition to coincide with the initial print release. >> >> It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open >> Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- >> Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. >> >> The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is >> available to borrow or to download: >> >> Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a >> critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. >> Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica >> Publishers. >> >> >> Borrow: >> >> http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U >> >> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >> >> >> Download: >> >> http://bit.ly/2FDVSki >> >> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >> >> >> >> >> Best, Richard >> >> >> -- >> Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica >> >> Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ >> T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 >> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org >> >> http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >> Reply-to: Jonathan Silk >> To: Dan Lusthaus >> Cc: Indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >> MDPI >> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 >> >> Dear Dan >> I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to >> point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions >> to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are >> materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this >> that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have >> experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an >> article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to >> last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive >> assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a >> weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable >> options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. >> Jonathan >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > t.indology.info> wrote: >> > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It >> > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber >> > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay >> > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will >> > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. >> > >> > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as >> > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material >> > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the >> > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The >> > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny >> > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, >> > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is >> > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t >> > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as >> > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the >> > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the >> > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display >> > by many, was clearly noticeable. >> > >> > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing >> > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating >> > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy >> > solution. >> > >> > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. >> > >> > Dan >> > >> > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: >> > > >> > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has >> > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t >> > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay >> > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars >> > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is >> > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and >> > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers >> > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into >> > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- >> > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it >> > > shouldn?t. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> > committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> > or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 08:36:31 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 14:06:31 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A small correction, not all the directors are bad, the majority I have seen are bad. On Thu 28 Mar, 2019, 2:05 PM Krishnaprasad G, wrote: > I am scared to to tell this, that is, not all the commercial publishing > houses will be started only for profit or wealth maximization. > But as already discussed profit making businesses are in plenty. > > I have started a publishing house 2 years back, to help the community. I > was not happy with the "Research institutes" already performing. Because I > am fed up seeing the bad "Directors" and of whom the tastes are shallow > and a misconception about what isresearch and what is not. > But my institute is not "not-for-profit organization" this is because I > don't have much contacts with academic politicians and hence I will not be > funded. Another reason being is The Companies Act is very strict and > complex and bound by the rules to start non-profit organization. > > However the profit margin for all the works I do is very nominal. So that > even a poorest Sanskrit student could be able to afford it. > > For instance (I am receiving many mails from Indology list asking the > details about font availability, hence writing this wouldn't be irrelevant) > The fonts are developed by the professionals and. And my I am selling them > for just INR 1150 (One thousand one hundred and fifty) approx 14 USD and > this payment is for life time and no hidden costs etc. > (I am not sure whether USD 14 is cheap in all the countries, however in > India 1150 for 3 font families with 3 weights each, is pretty cheap, > because Unicode compatible fonts are not sold this cheap in the history) > > I will shortly publish my website and post the other projects like > Raghuvamsa with Charitravardhana commentary, Apte Dictionary apps with zero > errors, Sanskrit Thesaurus etc. But all these with very nominal price I > sell them. The reason being for not having high profit motive is that, I > have different plan for my bread and butter. This publishing is my > passion. But still I sell them only, I need to reach the break even. > > I hope I will be supported by all. > > Krishna Prasad. > > > > > On Thu 28 Mar, 2019, 1:14 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY, < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Richard, >> First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is >> interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the >> publication is Open Access. >> The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: >> "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author >> asserts their moral rights in respect of this work,including their right >> to be identified as author" >> According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the >> publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact >> Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it >> certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! >> Best, Jonathan >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica < >> rmahoney at fastmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jonathan, >>> >>> With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions >>> and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access >>> edition to coincide with the initial print release. >>> >>> It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open >>> Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- >>> Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. >>> >>> The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is >>> available to borrow or to download: >>> >>> Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a >>> critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. >>> Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica >>> Publishers. >>> >>> >>> Borrow: >>> >>> http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U >>> >>> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >>> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >>> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >>> >>> >>> Download: >>> >>> http://bit.ly/2FDVSki >>> >>> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >>> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >>> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, Richard >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica >>> >>> Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ >>> T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 >>> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org >>> >>> http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >>> Reply-to: Jonathan Silk >>> To: Dan Lusthaus >>> Cc: Indology >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >>> MDPI >>> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 >>> >>> Dear Dan >>> I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to >>> point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions >>> to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are >>> materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this >>> that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have >>> experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an >>> article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to >>> last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive >>> assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a >>> weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable >>> options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. >>> Jonathan >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY >> t.indology.info> wrote: >>> > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It >>> > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber >>> > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay >>> > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will >>> > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. >>> > >>> > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as >>> > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material >>> > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the >>> > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The >>> > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny >>> > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, >>> > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is >>> > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t >>> > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as >>> > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the >>> > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the >>> > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display >>> > by many, was clearly noticeable. >>> > >>> > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing >>> > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating >>> > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy >>> > solution. >>> > >>> > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. >>> > >>> > Dan >>> > >>> > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY >> > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has >>> > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t >>> > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay >>> > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars >>> > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is >>> > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and >>> > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers >>> > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into >>> > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- >>> > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it >>> > > shouldn?t. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > INDOLOGY mailing list >>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> > committee) >>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> > or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 09:47:05 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 15:17:05 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rigveda padas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is great. Thanks On Wed 27 Mar, 2019, 7:58 PM Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Great! Thank you, Oliver! > > Joanna > > --- > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > 00-927 Warszawa > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > ?r., 27 mar 2019 o 12:48 Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Dear all, >> >> not sure if this is useful for anybody, but you can find the pada-split >> text of the RV along with the lexical analysis of each pada (not text >> line) here: >> >> https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/dcs/data/rigveda >> >> With a modest amount of programming one could, for instance, perform >> queries such as: "Show all stanzas where the second word in pada b is >> agni" etc. >> >> Error levels are described in the readme. If you find any other >> systematic (or unsystematic) errors in the data, I would be glad to get >> a hint. >> >> Best, Oliver >> >> --- >> Oliver Hellwig, IVS Z?rich/SFB 991 D?sseldorf >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Mar 28 13:21:51 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 06:21:51 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ?????? ? ????????????? ? ?????????????????????????? ???: ??????? Amazing is the beautiful celebration of Holi in Gokula. Krishna released four colors with his four hands. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 28 16:36:01 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 19 16:36:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, It?s all fine and well with me, academic publishers should by all means continue to earn profit and become fatter and fatter. However, once again I have to ask the question: where is my money? Sure I know there are costs also for e-publications, but I don?t understand why, in all this, authors are the only one who don?t get paid for their work. I want my money, mates! That?s all I?m saying to scientific publishers. If they are making a profit out of my work and I don?t, there are two options?which unfortunately, are not mutually exclusive: either scientific publishers are slavers or I?m a dupe. In a very broad generalization, there are two ways to increase profit for any type of company: innovation or cutting down the costs of labour. Basically like any other big corporation, big scientific publishers are going down the second path and in order to make profit not only they exploit our labour, but also public funding, since libraries have to pay hefty fees for journals. To make things worse, we are complacent, as Dan Lusthaus correctly points out, or even grateful sometimes. This article (thanks to Andrew Ollett for reminding me of it) explains it very well: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/27/profitable-business-scientific-publishing-bad-for-science This is a very telling passage from it (cursive mine): ?In order to make money, a traditional publisher ? say, a magazine ? first has to cover a multitude of costs: it pays writers for the articles; it employs editors to commission, shape and check the articles; and it pays to distribute the finished product to subscribers and retailers. All of this is expensive, and successful magazines typically make profits of around 12-15%. The way to make money from a scientific article looks very similar, except that scientific publishers manage to duck most of the actual costs.? One of the costs they duck is to pay us for our work. Try and ask a famous author of fiction not only to write her or his novel for free, but also to have to pay to read it once published and then you?ll hear how the answers sounds. My educated guess is that it will probably sound like a raspberry. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com] Sent: 27 March 2019 23:04 To: Dan Lusthaus Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Dear Dan I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. Jonathan On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display by many, was clearly noticeable. Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy solution. The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. Dan On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all-pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it shouldn?t. ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Mar 29 13:19:47 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 19 06:19:47 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???? ? ??????????????? ????? ????????? ??? ????? ??????? Just as the water of all rivers returns to the ocean, similarly, during Holi, all colors return to Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Mar 30 13:27:16 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 19 06:27:16 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ??????????? ????????????? ?????: ? ?????????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??????? Multi-form reflections of that one form of Krishna celebrate Holi everywhere in the world. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Mar 31 13:28:24 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 19 06:28:24 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cntinuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ?????????? ??????????? ?? ??????? ? ???????????? ????????? ????????? ?????????? ? ??????? All forms emerge only from the form of Krishna. Sparks appear from the fire and return to it. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 15:58:08 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 19 21:28:08 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kusumamala at USA inter library loan help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all I have now confirmed the worth of the first edition. After the 6th edition, the Kusumamala has been revised and curtailed which specifically mentioned on the cover page and also in itse preface. But the reason being only to meet the course duration of one year. All the important passages of Sanskrit literature of all possible expressions were initially collected by VS Apte. Only to meet the classroom requirements the curtailed edition was introduced with missing important passages and verses from classical literature. If anyone could help to procure the first edition, I will be grateful to you. Thanks and regards Krishna Prasad On Sun 13 Jan, 2019, 12:05 AM Olivelle, J P, wrote: > Dear Rosane: > > Thanks for both emails. I will try to get a scan from the place you > mention. Thanks. > > Patrick > > > > > On Jan 12, 2019, at 1:11 AM, Rocher, Rosane D via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Forget about interlibrary loan. That will not work. The link provided > should show how to order scans as an individual. It will not be a free > service. You will be charged for the scans. RR > On 1/11/19 10:48 PM, Krishnaprasad G wrote: > > Dear Rocher Rosane > Thanks for your help, > I gone through the link provided, unfortunately inter library loan is not > possible in this case, as my university is not providing such facility. > > Thanks > > On Fri 11 Jan, 2019, 10:05 PM Rocher, Rosane D via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info wrote: > >> Dear Krishnaprasad, >> >> The interlibrary loan is a free service that only functions between >> universities. Go to >> https://www.library.upenn.edu/kislak/reprographic-services for all >> necessary information. The call number (British shelfmark) for the item >> you seek is PK669 .A68 1891. The item is listed as "in place." I can't go >> and verify. I am stuck at home with a fractured toe. >> >> Best wishes, >> Rosane Rocher >> Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies >> University of Pennsylvania >> >> On 1/11/19 9:17 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> Dear all >> I am forwarding the reply I received from Pennsylvania Library USA, >> My library doesn't allow to put forward the interlibrary loan request, in >> fact they are not aware of that and I am failed to convince the curator. >> That's is the reason on personal mail I requested. >> I wonder, could any one take the hassle here to help me out for the scan. >> I will bear all the costs incurred. Your help is highly admired. >> The Kususmamala Vol 2 available on archive is not 1st edition. >> >> Best >> K P >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: LIBinterlib >> Date: Fri 11 Jan, 2019, 6:54 PM >> Subject: RE: Request for Scan Copy >> To: Krishnaprasad G >> >> >> Dear Krishna Prasad, >> >> >> We do have this book and do provide scanning services. Please have the >> interlibrary loan department of your university contact us at this email to >> inquire about placing a request. We can only fill requests from >> universities, not from individual patrons. >> >> >> Very best regards, >> >> >> Interlibrary Loan >> >> Van Pelt Library >> >> University of Pennsylvania ? PAU >> >> Philadelphia PA 19104 >> >> sk >> >> http://guides.library.upenn.edu/resoursharing >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Krishnaprasad G >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 8, 2019 10:03 AM >> *To:* LIBinterlib >> *Subject:* Request for Scan Copy >> >> >> Dear Curator >> >> I am Krishna Prasad research student at Karnataka Samskrit University >> Bangalore. I am searching for Kusumamala Vol 2 1891 edition. I happened to >> that the book is in your library collection through world catalog. I would >> be glad to know is there any facility to get the book scanned. Could you >> please confirm the facility. >> >> Thanks >> >> Yours sincerely >> >> KP >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sun Mar 31 17:12:26 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 19 17:12:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, This takes us back to an old thread, but I just recalled a good section on the topic in H. Daniel Smith, A Sourcebook of VaiSNava Iconography (Madras 1969), ch. 8, "Decorations, weapons and instruments of worship). best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Harry Spier via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 9:07:13 PM To: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Names and descriptions of indian weapons in sanskrit Thank you those who answered me on-list: Walter Slaje, John Huntington, Dermot Killingley and Matthew Kapstein. And thank you to those who answered me off-list. George Hart,who pointed me to Parip??al, translated by Gros , the Divyaprabandham and the Siva Tirumu?ai Loriliei Bierniacki, who pointed me to Gudruun Buhnemann?s work on deities, Saran Suebsantiwongse who pointed me to list of weapons in the glossary of Vasista?s Dhanurvedasamhit? translated by Purnima Roy. Harry Spier On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:06 PM Harry Spier > wrote: Dear list members, Would anyhow have or be able to point to articles or lists of names and descriptions of weapons in sanskrit. In particular names and descriptions of weapons described as being held in the hands of gods and goddesses .in the different stotras and descriptions of those deities. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 20:56:23 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 19 14:56:23 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, As far as I understand, you are right, Jonathan. Sean Gaffney's book (as a PDF, I've just downloaded) contains the (C) assertion that you quote. That the author retains the copyright is good and proper. All authors should hold on to their copyright in all circumstances. That stuff about "moral right" etc. doesn't say anything about whether the book is OA or not. All OA books have a copyright-holder too. But to make a book Open Access, the copyright-holder needs to issue a formal license statement that says, more or less, "As copyright holder, I give everyone permission to copy this publication." Sean Gaffney's book does not include such a statement on the (C) page (in fact the opposite, stringent restrictions), and this means that on the evidence of the (C) page, it is not OA. People downloading it will rightly be in doubt about whether they are breaching the author's rights. None of the PDF or online metadata that I see accompanying the book says that the author has issued an OA license. The copyright-holder's license statement doesn't need to give away *all* rights. Various degrees of OA license are listed at creativecommons.org, an organization that has given a lot of thought to all this stuff. To sum up: the author is the first *copyright*-holder and therefore retains the right to control copying of their work. The author, qua copyright-holder, is the only person who may issue a *license* giving people freedoms to do other things, like freely copying. Thus an OA publication should make *two* things clear. 1. There is a copyright-holder, 2. That person has issued an appropriate OA license. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 01:44, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Richard, > First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is > interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the > publication is Open Access. > The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: > "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author asserts > their moral rights in respect of this work,including their right to be > identified as author" > According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the > publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact > Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it > certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! > Best, Jonathan > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica < > rmahoney at fastmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Jonathan, >> >> With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions >> and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access >> edition to coincide with the initial print release. >> >> It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open >> Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- >> Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. >> >> The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is >> available to borrow or to download: >> >> Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a >> critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. >> Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica >> Publishers. >> >> >> Borrow: >> >> http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U >> >> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >> >> >> Download: >> >> http://bit.ly/2FDVSki >> >> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >> >> >> >> >> Best, Richard >> >> >> -- >> Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica >> >> Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ >> T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 >> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org >> >> http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >> Reply-to: Jonathan Silk >> To: Dan Lusthaus >> Cc: Indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >> MDPI >> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 >> >> Dear Dan >> I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to >> point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions >> to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are >> materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this >> that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have >> experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an >> article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to >> last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive >> assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a >> weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable >> options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. >> Jonathan >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > t.indology.info> wrote: >> > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It >> > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber >> > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay >> > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will >> > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. >> > >> > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as >> > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material >> > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the >> > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The >> > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny >> > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, >> > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is >> > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t >> > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as >> > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the >> > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the >> > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display >> > by many, was clearly noticeable. >> > >> > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing >> > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating >> > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy >> > solution. >> > >> > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. >> > >> > Dan >> > >> > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: >> > > >> > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has >> > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t >> > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay >> > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars >> > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is >> > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and >> > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers >> > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into >> > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- >> > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it >> > > shouldn?t. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> > committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> > or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 21:05:56 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 19 15:05:56 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Krishnaprasad makes a crucial point, I think, when he says that his own business is structured as a charity or non-profit organization. I worked for many years for the Wellcome Trust in London (that owns and runs the Wellcome Library that has thousands of Indic manuscripts). I have seen at first hand how a charitable trust can own and run a pharmaceutical company (the Wellcome Foundation, later sold to Smith-Kline Beecham), and own major investments (the Wellome Trust owns large tracts of London) and how all the considerable profits from that can be funnelled into regulated charitable goals such as education and research. In my opinion, most major corporate bodies that are today viewed as for-profit entities should be re-structured as charities, including all medical facilities, hospitals, prisons, schools, universities, religious organizations, orchestras, etc. etc. This sounds utopian. It would be nice to live in a utopia. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 03:31, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I am scared to to tell this, that is, not all the commercial publishing > houses will be started only for profit or wealth maximization. > But as already discussed profit making businesses are in plenty. > > I have started a publishing house 2 years back, to help the community. I > was not happy with the "Research institutes" already performing. Because I > am fed up seeing the bad "Directors" and of whom the tastes are shallow > and a misconception about what isresearch and what is not. > But my institute is not "not-for-profit organization" this is because I > don't have much contacts with academic politicians and hence I will not be > funded. Another reason being is The Companies Act is very strict and > complex and bound by the rules to start non-profit organization. > > However the profit margin for all the works I do is very nominal. So that > even a poorest Sanskrit student could be able to afford it. > > For instance (I am receiving many mails from Indology list asking the > details about font availability, hence writing this wouldn't be irrelevant) > The fonts are developed by the professionals and. And my I am selling them > for just INR 1150 (One thousand one hundred and fifty) approx 14 USD and > this payment is for life time and no hidden costs etc. > (I am not sure whether USD 14 is cheap in all the countries, however in > India 1150 for 3 font families with 3 weights each, is pretty cheap, > because Unicode compatible fonts are not sold this cheap in the history) > > I will shortly publish my website and post the other projects like > Raghuvamsa with Charitravardhana commentary, Apte Dictionary apps with zero > errors, Sanskrit Thesaurus etc. But all these with very nominal price I > sell them. The reason being for not having high profit motive is that, I > have different plan for my bread and butter. This publishing is my > passion. But still I sell them only, I need to reach the break even. > > I hope I will be supported by all. > > Krishna Prasad. > > > > > On Thu 28 Mar, 2019, 1:14 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY, < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Richard, >> First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is >> interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the >> publication is Open Access. >> The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: >> "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author >> asserts their moral rights in respect of this work,including their right >> to be identified as author" >> According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the >> publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact >> Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it >> certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! >> Best, Jonathan >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica < >> rmahoney at fastmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jonathan, >>> >>> With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions >>> and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access >>> edition to coincide with the initial print release. >>> >>> It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open >>> Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- >>> Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. >>> >>> The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is >>> available to borrow or to download: >>> >>> Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a >>> critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. >>> Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica >>> Publishers. >>> >>> >>> Borrow: >>> >>> http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U >>> >>> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >>> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >>> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >>> >>> >>> Download: >>> >>> http://bit.ly/2FDVSki >>> >>> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >>> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >>> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, Richard >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica >>> >>> Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ >>> T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 >>> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org >>> >>> http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >>> Reply-to: Jonathan Silk >>> To: Dan Lusthaus >>> Cc: Indology >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >>> MDPI >>> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 >>> >>> Dear Dan >>> I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to >>> point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions >>> to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are >>> materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this >>> that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have >>> experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an >>> article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to >>> last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive >>> assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a >>> weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable >>> options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. >>> Jonathan >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY >> t.indology.info> wrote: >>> > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It >>> > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber >>> > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay >>> > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will >>> > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. >>> > >>> > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as >>> > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material >>> > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the >>> > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The >>> > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny >>> > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, >>> > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is >>> > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t >>> > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as >>> > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the >>> > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the >>> > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display >>> > by many, was clearly noticeable. >>> > >>> > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing >>> > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating >>> > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy >>> > solution. >>> > >>> > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. >>> > >>> > Dan >>> > >>> > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY >> > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has >>> > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t >>> > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay >>> > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars >>> > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is >>> > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and >>> > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers >>> > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into >>> > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- >>> > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it >>> > > shouldn?t. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > INDOLOGY mailing list >>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> > committee) >>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> > or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: