From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 00:50:23 2019
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 09:50:23 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vishwakarma Craftsmen
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QDDZ9OQ=WEmKW3rdCEHv=oavMK8_PBXUa5PJ6c7CSHoiA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I am wondering if anyone has access the following article:
Ramaswamy, Vijaya. "Vishwakarma Craftsmen in Early Medieval Peninsular
India", in: *Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient*,
vol. 47, n. 4 (2004), pp. 548-582.

It seems to be available on JSTOR, but at the institution I can visit at
the moment I have no access to most of the contents of JSTOR, hence my
query on this list.

All the best,
Gaia Pintucci


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From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 01:11:23 2019
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 10:11:23 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vishwakarma Craftsmen
In-Reply-To: <CAOYD-QDDZ9OQ=WEmKW3rdCEHv=oavMK8_PBXUa5PJ6c7CSHoiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QB50jELRmeSqkh_ykdZuJLvPNufhTm7SK=KUZovvtwLsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I received the article from Jesse Knutson less then 20 minutes after
posting my query!

Thanks to Jesse Knutson and best wishes to all of you,
Gaia Pintucci



On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 9:50 AM Gaia Pintucci <gaiapintucci at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I am wondering if anyone has access the following article:
> Ramaswamy, Vijaya. "Vishwakarma Craftsmen in Early Medieval Peninsular
> India", in: *Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient*,
> vol. 47, n. 4 (2004), pp. 548-582.
>
> It seems to be available on JSTOR, but at the institution I can visit at
> the moment I have no access to most of the contents of JSTOR, hence my
> query on this list.
>
> All the best,
> Gaia Pintucci
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 03:32:05 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 31 May 19 21:32:05 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81caspati_Mi=C5=9Bra?=
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR11MB178718BD552ABBBA3E18606CA1190@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeHj+U5WOL6akcgLa7Qk8qNYuvVJgQwsGERMz2KzxL7Vg@mail.gmail.com>

See also

   - https://www.panditproject.org/entity/85319/person
   - https://www.panditproject.org/entity/85720/person


--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 16:52, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
>
> I seem to recall from my student days that V?caspati Mi?ra was often
> treated as two: V?caspati Mi?ra I and V?caspati Mi?ra II.
>
>
> However, it now seems that this doubling has disappeared and he is mostly
> treated as a single figure.
>
>
> Can you refer me to any work that explicitly discusses and resolves the
> issue?
>
>
> with thanks in advance,
>
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From dkyoiwtoa at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  1 06:55:47 2019
From: dkyoiwtoa at hotmail.com (Diwakar Acharya)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 06:55:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Senior Research Fellowship in Linguistics
Message-ID: <BYAPR10MB31112D04621D8263E268DDF5B21A0@BYAPR10MB3111.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

Dear List,

Here is something for indologists of lingistic orientation. The competition and advert went live today. The link is https://www.asc.ox.ac.uk/news/senior-research-fellowships-1

Best,

Diwakar

Dr. Diwakar Acharya
Spalding Professor of Eastern Religions and Ethics
Faculty of Oriental Studies / All Souls College
University of Oxford


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From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 07:09:59 2019
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 16:09:59 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Old Ganges
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QAxWhNbpp3gKC0+5u_hAO++W11EqVgQEi_aP0_+_s2SKA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I have done some research on an author who declares he wrote his work while
residing "in K?mpilya, on the banks of the heavenly river".
I know there is a town called Kampil in Uttar Pradesh and I see in
GoogleMaps that it is not very far from a channel called Old Ganges. Apart
from GoogleMaps, other sources confirm the existence of a Kampil on the Old
Ganges and the usage of such denomination with regard to one or two
channels in that area of India. For these reasons, I assume I can safely
identify my author's town of residence with Kampil in UP.
However, considering that there is at least another channel that is known
as Old Ganges and that flows in present-day Bangladesh, now I'd like to
know more about the usage of the denomination Old Ganges. Is it simply that
every channel from which the bed of the river deviated at some point could
receive this label, or was/is there one channel that was/is the Old Ganges
par excellence?
I'd be interested in and grateful for any suggestions and references on
this issue.

Best wishes,
Gaia Pintucci


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jun  1 11:16:31 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 13:16:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eurasia in Lao
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsAKvOMAWXipXiZnd=Bd+gCAjmifDZbb-Xj8xBhS_Zusg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List members,


Could someone, please, direct me to an official Laotan document containing
the term *Eurasia* - in its Lao Romanized form and in the Lao script?


Thanking you in advance,


Greetings from suddenly sunny Warszawa,


Artur Karp (ret.)

Uniwersytet Warszawski

Polska


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Sat Jun  1 11:26:53 2019
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 13:26:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Publication Announcement]
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nW=C4S_LnAHR7PcL2zSMFVTtByEvT07eaBHPv187jNpOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Scholars,

it is my pleasure to announce the publication of a new title in the Halle
Indological Series dealing with the history of the Rigvedic civilization :

Rainer Stuhrmann: Rigvedische Studien. [Studia Indologica Universitatis
Halensis. 10]. Halle: Universit?tsverlag Halle-Wittenberg 2019. 424 Seiten.
ISBN 978-3-86977-193-9

https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html

Kindly regarding,
Walter Slaje

-----------------------------
Univ.-Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Sat Jun  1 12:02:36 2019
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 14:02:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nW=C4S_LnAHR7PcL2zSMFVTtByEvT07eaBHPv187jNpOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUNKguHWz01nBWzDvNdqd53egM+Mm-LEfB=_k3VZ98oJA@mail.gmail.com>

 Inhalt



Vorwort

Einleitung



1) Worum handelt es sich beim Soma?

2) ?gveda X. 119: Der Rausch des Kiebitz.

3) ?gvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, pharmakologisch, in den Augen
der Kavis.

4) ?gvedisch p?r.

5) Die Wurzeln der Traumdeutung in Indien und Griechenland ? Eine
vergleichende Betrachtung.

6) Schiffahrt im Rigveda.

7) Die Zehnk?nigsschlacht am Raviflu?.

8) Atri nimmt ein hei?es Bad ? zur Bedeutung von *gharm?*, *om?n *und *?b?sa
*im Rigveda.



Literatur

Behandelte W?rter

Stellenverzeichnis


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jun  1 12:00:24 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 14:00:24 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eurasia in Lao
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsAKvOMAWXipXiZnd=Bd+gCAjmifDZbb-Xj8xBhS_Zusg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvRec2WDFXtHPmQkswE9aNb9GA77WAFvv1vPMfCvWBUbw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

While using the term *official* I had in mind a *formal*, not a
journalistic text,

Artur Karp

sob., 1 cze 2019 o 13:16 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):

> Dear List members,
>
>
> Could someone, please, direct me to an official Laotan document containing
> the term *Eurasia* - in its Lao Romanized form and in the Lao script?
>
>
> Thanking you in advance,
>
>
> Greetings from suddenly sunny Warszawa,
>
>
> Artur Karp (ret.)
>
> Uniwersytet Warszawski
>
> Polska
>
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun  1 13:32:03 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 06:32:03 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verse
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzchV8ofE4PFsYO6eknLLzQcfOp0+UtyupWTFaeBMFVStA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????????????????? ???????? ????? ?????: ?
?????????????? ??? ????? ? ??? ??????? ???: ???????
Even though he is one, he has many forms and he is close to everyone.
Whichever [cowgirl] has set her mind on him can catch him.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Sat Jun  1 13:36:50 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 15:36:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nUNKguHWz01nBWzDvNdqd53egM+Mm-LEfB=_k3VZ98oJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zEUDuOKmf2hrQ0aenV4xJ3hFY35Lat3B-KxDMgMDxqSog@mail.gmail.com>

Dear listfolk,

on of the chapters here is about the Zehnk?nigsschlacht am Ravifluss,
published separately in the EJVS a few years ago. You may or may not
know that a rebuttal was written to it:
https://talageri.blogspot.com/2017/06/, by Shrikant Talageri, and I
invite those interested in the Battle of the Ten Kings and in Vedic
interpretation generally, to take a look at it.

Yes, me too, like most of you, I am skeptical of the high-strung
language he uses, with e.g. a statement judged "not true" immediately
being dubbed a "lie", as if for every deliberate lie there aren't a
hundred bonafide mistakes. Gossiping socialites and TV debaters will
certainly highlight these flaws to score points against him. Scholars
eager to get closer to the truth, by contrast, like the august crowd
on the present forum, will instead focus on the contents of his
critique. Which is quite pertinent.

Incidentally, I have also written two partly overlapping papers on the
same subject:

https://www.academia.edu/30880829/Zurich1407VasisthaKE.docx

https://www.academia.edu/20041969/The_conflict_between_Vedic_Aryans_and_Iranians

Kind regards,


Koenraad ELST

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 2:03 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Inhalt
>
>
>
> Vorwort
>
> Einleitung
>
>
>
> 1) Worum handelt es sich beim Soma?
>
> 2) ?gveda X. 119: Der Rausch des Kiebitz.
>
> 3) ?gvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, pharmakologisch, in den Augen der Kavis.
>
> 4) ?gvedisch p?r.
>
> 5) Die Wurzeln der Traumdeutung in Indien und Griechenland ? Eine vergleichende Betrachtung.
>
> 6) Schiffahrt im Rigveda.
>
> 7) Die Zehnk?nigsschlacht am Raviflu?.
>
> 8) Atri nimmt ein hei?es Bad ? zur Bedeutung von gharm?, om?n und ?b?sa im Rigveda.
>
>
>
> Literatur
>
> Behandelte W?rter
>
> Stellenverzeichnis
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jun  1 13:50:26 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 13:50:26 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81caspati_Mi=C5=9Bra?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeHj+U5WOL6akcgLa7Qk8qNYuvVJgQwsGERMz2KzxL7Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR11MB1787357E5C4CF17D558B89B9A11A0@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks to Elliot Stern, Isabelle Rati?, and Dominik Wujastyk for confirming that rumors of a single V?caspatimi?ra were indeed  "fake news." I must admit that I was not quite aware of the Pandit Project and look forward to exploring it more fully.


Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2019 10:32:05 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein
Cc: Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] V?caspati Mi?ra

See also

  *   https://www.panditproject.org/entity/85319/person
  *   https://www.panditproject.org/entity/85720/person

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca<http://sas.ualberta.ca/>



On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 16:52, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear friends,


I seem to recall from my student days that V?caspati Mi?ra was often treated as two: V?caspati Mi?ra I and V?caspati Mi?ra II.


However, it now seems that this doubling has disappeared and he is mostly treated as a single figure.


Can you refer me to any work that explicitly discusses and resolves the issue?


with thanks in advance,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jun  1 18:39:58 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 19 20:39:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Eurasia in Lao
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvRec2WDFXtHPmQkswE9aNb9GA77WAFvv1vPMfCvWBUbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFv9mLXa0e9OzW-DCxy8yYM-kfc3SZ=OgQisxe8U4wp_rQ@mail.gmail.com>

Eurasia in the net English-Lao(tian) dictionaries has this Lao script form:

*???????*

Its transliteration? (I cannot find ?? in the tables of the Lao fonts. ?).



sob., 1 cze 2019 o 14:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):

> Dear List,
>
> While using the term *official* I had in mind a *formal*, not a
> journalistic text,
>
> Artur Karp
>
> sob., 1 cze 2019 o 13:16 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear List members,
>>
>>
>> Could someone, please, direct me to an official Laotan document
>> containing the term *Eurasia* - in its Lao Romanized form and in the Lao
>> script?
>>
>>
>> Thanking you in advance,
>>
>>
>> Greetings from suddenly sunny Warszawa,
>>
>>
>> Artur Karp (ret.)
>>
>> Uniwersytet Warszawski
>>
>> Polska
>>
>>


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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 04:18:56 2019
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 09:48:56 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81caspati_Mi=C5=9Bra?=
In-Reply-To: <21drsl6omct1ab32ec9k91i3.1559446900211@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5cf34e43.1c69fb81.c5e14.efaf@mx.google.com>

Dear colleagues,I read different views on the personality of Pt Vachaspati Misra.As far as Pandit project is concerned it creates utter confusion.I would like to clarify it as I belong to the Mithila region to which Pt.Vachaspati Misra belonged.May be manyPersons of this name but two Vachaspati Misras were famous.Vachaspati I (Senior) certainly flourished in the 9th Century as he wrote? the Bhamati comm. on Shankara's(8th cent.)bhasya and Tatparya tika on? the Nyayavarttika.Udayanacharya(10th cent.) Wrote Parishuddhi on his Tatparya tika.He wrote on all theistic branches of Indian Philosophy but not a single book on Dharmashastra.Vachaspati II( Junior) flourished in the 1st half of 15th Century.He was born after the advent of Navya Nyaya and wrote many books on Dharmasastra and also a few books on the Navya Nyaya.For details books may be consulted as under:1.History of Navya Nyaya in Mithila-D.C.Bhattacharya2.Sanskrit Vanmaya ka brihat Itihasa-NyayaBoth available on Archive.org.Girish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna Univ.IndiaResidence: KolkataSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> Date: 6/1/19  7:21 PM  (GMT+05:30) To: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> Cc: Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] V?caspati Mi?ra 

Thanks to Elliot Stern, Isabelle Rati?,
 and Dominik Wujastyk for confirming that rumors of a single V?caspatimi?ra were indeed? "fake news." I must admit that I was not quite aware of the Pandit Project and look forward to exploring it more fully.


Matthew




Matthew Kapstein
Directeur
 d'?tudes, 
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago




From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2019 10:32:05 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein
Cc: Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] V?caspati Mi?ra
?




See also


https://www.panditproject.org/entity/85319/personhttps://www.panditproject.org/entity/85720/person
















--










Professor?Dominik Wujastyk
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics
,

University of Alberta, Canada
.


South Asia at the U of A:
?
sas.ualberta.ca





























































On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 16:52, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:




Dear friends,


I seem to recall from my student days that
V?caspati Mi?ra was often treated as two: V?caspati Mi?ra I and
V?caspati Mi?ra II.


However, it now seems that this doubling has disappeared and he is mostly treated as a single figure.


Can you refer me to any work that explicitly discusses and resolves the issue?


with thanks in advance,
Matthew




Matthew Kapstein
Directeur
 d'?tudes, 
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 06:08:19 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 11:38:19 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpI/gpJXgpL7gpJXgpY3gpLfgpLDgpKjgpL7gpK7gpK7gpL7gpLLgpL4gb2Yg4KS44KS+4KSn4KWB4KSV4KSy4KS24KSj4KS/?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUxwQc93=wzxy_-thovgD3UMpt7pOgb7hZ2hyvk15zzuA@mail.gmail.com>

It is my privilege to share  with you the abovementioned work in digital
format, properly annotated.

txt file -
https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/ekaksharanamamala_sadhukalashagani/orig/ekaksharanamamala.txt

Various other formats like xml, html, md, babylon, json and stardict are
also available at
https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/tree/master/ekaksharanamamala_sadhukalashagani
.

This is part of a larger project trying to make traditional Sanskrit lexica
available in digital format for better accessibility. There are various
Sanskrit koshas in various stages of development.

Your feedback is highly appreciated.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 07:30:35 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 13:00:35 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kindly review the fonts and help for crowd funding
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZjot-Ey7QOAskrBuR6ckcmgthoVWB2HVCV-p3fTFGKkUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZig_MxECoVgRSR5ZF_VTYDVhxQYrLPP+xW9nJg1g-wnjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all

I have a plan to distribute the fonts without any charges after I get back
the money I've invested. The official release of the fonts will be in the
month of August or September. To reach break-even I am collecting the
money. If you and your contacts ready to contribute let me know. Your help
is highly admired.

I have 2 more designs of Nirnaya Sagar. Will send them when they are ready.

Please report the errors and Will fix it in no time, Thank you.

PayPal adishilapublication at gmail.com

Yours sincerely
KP


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 07:32:11 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 13:02:11 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kindly review the fonts and help for crowd funding
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZig_MxECoVgRSR5ZF_VTYDVhxQYrLPP+xW9nJg1g-wnjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZjWEVzGLEW8Y7pqm=AFkVoc2UaGFT6VCU4C36t5T2hxyA@mail.gmail.com>

The total cost incurred for 8 fonts is more than 10,000 USD

On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 1:00 PM Krishnaprasad G, <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> Dear all
>
> I have a plan to distribute the fonts without any charges after I get back
> the money I've invested. The official release of the fonts will be in the
> month of August or September. To reach break-even I am collecting the
> money. If you and your contacts ready to contribute let me know. Your help
> is highly admired.
>
> I have 2 more designs of Nirnaya Sagar. Will send them when they are ready.
>
> Please report the errors and Will fix it in no time, Thank you.
>
> PayPal adishilapublication at gmail.com
>
> Yours sincerely
> KP
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Jun  2 11:52:00 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 13:52:00 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  Eurasia in Lao
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFv++Wy27iBCBgex=HUv1WcxRYiVajLmZHHjnVYEb+Mx+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvH2wwarXgqu=d_=pAA0AeEtr5kdavWaqgZLM1NELxfoQ@mail.gmail.com>

According to BGN/PCGN romanization:


???????

your?x?y

 How does it look like?


Artur Karp

niedz., 2 cze 2019 o 13:31 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):

> Thanks!
>
> But the Aksharamukha version does not seem realistic - neither as a
> phonetic transcription, nor as a transliteration.
>
> BGN/PCGN romanization: I can see three syllables ?? - you ?? - re ?? x/se.
> ? when syllable ending  - y.
>
> Ultimately: yourex/seya
>
> How does it look like?
>
>
>
> sob., 1 cze 2019 o 20:47 Martin Gansten <martingansten at gmail.com>
> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear Artur,
>>
>> Aksharamukha <http://aksharamukha.appspot.com/#/converter> gives
>> y?reje?, which looks more or less like a phonetic transcription.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> Den 2019-06-01 kl. 20:39, skrev Artur Karp via INDOLOGY:
>>
>> Eurasia in the net English-Lao(tian) dictionaries has this Lao script
>> form:
>>
>> *???????*
>>
>> Its transliteration? (I cannot find ?? in the tables of the Lao fonts.
>> ?).
>>
>>
>>
>> sob., 1 cze 2019 o 14:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):
>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> While using the term *official* I had in mind a *formal*, not a
>>> journalistic text,
>>>
>>> Artur Karp
>>>
>>> sob., 1 cze 2019 o 13:16 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):
>>>
>>>> Dear List members,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could someone, please, direct me to an official Laotan document
>>>> containing the term *Eurasia* - in its Lao Romanized form and in the
>>>> Lao script?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanking you in advance,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greetings from suddenly sunny Warszawa,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Artur Karp (ret.)
>>>>
>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski
>>>>
>>>> Polska
>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>


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From dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sun Jun  2 12:35:14 2019
From: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de (Dragomir Dimitrov)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 14:35:14 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_NEW_BOOK:_Wo_unter_sch=C3=B6nbelaubtem_Baume_Yama_mit_den_G=C3=B6ttern_zecht?=
Message-ID: <5CF3C282.4426.8571D1C@dimitrov.staff.uni-marburg.de>

NEW BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT

Wo unter sch?nbelaubtem Baume Yama mit den G?ttern zecht
Zweisprachige Proben vedischer Lyrik

Von Walter Slaje

M?nchen 2019
Indologica Marpurgensia, Band IX
P. Kirchheim Verlag
Englische Broschur, 305 pp.
ISBN: 978-3-87410-148-6
Price: EUR 34,90

SUMMARY (in German):

Mit Rigveda bezeichnet man eine Sammlung sakraler Hymnen, die von 
inspirierten, mit priesterlichen Aufgaben ausgestatteten Dichtern im 
altindischen Dialekt ihrer Zeit verfa?t wurden, den man heute Vedisch nennt. 
Diese bronzezeitlichen Hymnen entstanden im 2. Jahrtausend vor Christus im 
Zuge der Einwanderung indoarischer St?mme aus den Steppen des Urals 
nach Indien. In gebundener Sprache verfa?t, liegen sie dem Werk Homers 
etwa eintausend Jahre voraus. Der Rigveda ?berliefert somit die ?lteste 
metrische Poesie der indogermanischen Sprachfamilie und darf auch als 
?lteste in dieser Form erhalten gebliebene Lyrik der Welt gelten. In 
Anlehnung an die Zahl von dreiunddrei?ig vedischen G?ttern wurden aus den 
insgesamt 1028 Hymnen des Rigveda f?r die vorliegende Ausgabe 
dreiunddrei?ig hochpoetische Lieder ausgew?hlt. Die Auswahl umfa?t 
Thematiken, die einen tiefen, stellenweise wohl auch ?berraschend modern 
anmutenden Einblick in den Alltag, in die Freuden, Hoffnungen und ?ngste 
der Menschen der vedischen V?lker im indischen F?nfstromland (Pa?j?b) der 
Voreisenzeit gew?hren und die man nicht anders als weltliche Lyrik 
bezeichnen kann. Die Wiedergabe erfolgt zweisprachig auf 
gegen?berliegenden Seiten in vedischer und deutscher Sprache. Eine 
H?rfassung der deutschen ?bersetzung ist im Portal ?Gesprochene deutsche 
Lyrik ? Schatzkiste? von Fritz Stavenhagen verf?gbar. Sie ist als Audiodatei 
auch in der ?GRETIL e-library? der Nieders?chsischen Staats- und 
Universit?tsbibliothek G?ttingen hinterlegt.

For more details, please see here:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/iksl/indologie/fachgebiet/im


________________________________________

   Dr. habil. Dragomir Dimitrov
   Indologie und Tibetologie
   Philipps-Universit?t Marburg
   Deutschhausstr. 12
   D-35032 Marburg
   Germany

   Tel.: +49 178 9190340, +49 6421 28 24640
   E-mail: dimitrov at staff.uni-marburg.de
   http://www.uni-marburg.de/indologie
   http://www.dragomir-dimitrov.net
________________________________________






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun  2 13:16:34 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 06:16:34 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeCUyNinubOnoFe=zgZO4ugLRV898wyf_jvcTqM0ek-Yg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?????? ??? ?????????? ??????? ? ?????? ?
?????????????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????
Even though he is one, he has entered into the hearts of all those
cowgirls. He will fulfill the love of all those who have fallen in love
with him.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From isabelle.ratie at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 15:49:26 2019
From: isabelle.ratie at gmail.com (Isabelle Ratie)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 17:49:26 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] article request
Message-ID: <CANFkKBYdSVbcdr9gtMUJg67buBPb42E7XCz7cnR0qGfVzN_xug@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I would be very grateful if someone happened to have a PDF copy of the
following and were willing to share it:

David Pingree, "The Pait?maha-siddh?nta of the
*Vi??udharmottarapur??a*,? *Adyar
Library Bulletin* 31-32 (Dr. Raghavan Felicitation Volume), 1967-1968, pp.
472-510.

With all best wishes,
Isabelle


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From isabelle.ratie at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 16:16:40 2019
From: isabelle.ratie at gmail.com (Isabelle Ratie)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 18:16:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] article request
In-Reply-To: <CANFkKBYdSVbcdr9gtMUJg67buBPb42E7XCz7cnR0qGfVzN_xug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFkKBY7N-mhGOQfT=yJdWgtH_wViqQw0wNkL_2pyA+cGf6H6w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

Many thanks to Bill Mak for sending me almost instantly a copy of the
article.

With all best wishes,
Isabelle

Le dim. 2 juin 2019 ? 17:49, Isabelle Ratie <isabelle.ratie at gmail.com> a
?crit :

> Dear list members,
>
> I would be very grateful if someone happened to have a PDF copy of the
> following and were willing to share it:
>
> David Pingree, "The Pait?maha-siddh?nta of the *Vi??udharmottarapur??a*,? *Adyar
> Library Bulletin* 31-32 (Dr. Raghavan Felicitation Volume), 1967-1968,
> pp. 472-510.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Isabelle
>


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Sun Jun  2 16:34:25 2019
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 16:34:25 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
Message-ID: <20190602163425.20826.qmail@f4mail-235-237.rediffmail.com>

Respected scholars,As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?If , anybody may kindly help me out.Alakendu Das.



Sent from RediffmailNG on Android


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 16:39:03 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 22:09:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
In-Reply-To: <20190602163425.20826.qmail@f4mail-235-237.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZhXS-44HF-wY8kF1m0idhaRHbUyrj6wJjzF0=KcmFOyHA@mail.gmail.com>

No, Purnaprajna Darsana is founded by Madhvacarya ????????????????
And the author of Sarvadarsana sangraha is Madhavacharya
???????????


On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 10:05 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Respected scholars,
> As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on
> BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are
> Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of
> "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?
> If , anybody may kindly help me out.
> Alakendu Das.
>
>
>
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Jun  2 16:53:24 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 16:53:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZhXS-44HF-wY8kF1m0idhaRHbUyrj6wJjzF0=KcmFOyHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR11MB1787DDB4CDA4133E0336D34CA11B0@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

In fact, the late Anantalal Thakur demonstrated that the SDS was NOT written by ??????????? but by his protege, the logician Cannibha??a.

He provides his evidence, which is entirely convincing, here:
Anantalal Thakur, ?Cannibha??a and the authorship of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha,? Bulletin of the Adyar Library 25
(1961): 524?538.

It is odd that few seem to have taken note of Thakur's impressive detective work and that most still attribute the SDS to ?????.


best regards,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2019 11:39:03 AM
To: alakendu das
Cc: Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya

No, Purnaprajna Darsana is founded by Madhvacarya ????????????????
And the author of Sarvadarsana sangraha is Madhavacharya
???????????


On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 10:05 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY, <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Respected scholars,
As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?
If , anybody may kindly help me out.
Alakendu Das.



Sent from RediffmailNG on Android

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Jun  2 20:18:50 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 22:18:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsg=nh_uv=bBb-vuQw8C5H726-ds9+sjLEotszzRguJAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as In*t*iya - or
In*d*iya?

Thanks in advance,

Artur Karp (ret.)

Uniwersytet Warszawski
Polska


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Sun Jun  2 20:27:17 2019
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 20:27:17 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR11MB1787DDB4CDA4133E0336D34CA11B0@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20190602222845.fb07a0b69cdd49d064c7ec10@ff.cuni.cz>

A nuanced discussion of the problem of the authorship of the SDS (which includes the evaluation of Thakur's arguments) is available in Jon Yamashita's thesis: A Translation and Study of the P??inidar?ana Chapter of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha (1998), pp. 22?32. It is partly inconclusive:

In conclusion, both internal and external evidence suggests that the author of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha was not M?dhav?c?rya, the elder brother of S?ya?a. Rather, the author must have been at least a generation later than M?dhav?c?rya. Two possible candidates which have been proposed are [1] the son of S?ya?a ? whose name M?ya?a is to be considered a corruption or regional form of "M?dhava", and [2] Cannibha??a, the naiy?yika author of the Tarkabh???prak??ik? ? either independently or as part of a committee. There is no direct proof to support either choice; the available evidence, however, allows each to be given serious consideration as possible candidates for the authorship. At most, we can say with certainty that under either claim, the Sarvadar?anasa?graha would have been composed during the fourteenth century under the patronage of the Vijayanagara court. (p. 31)

Best,
Lubomir




On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 16:53:24 +0000
Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> In fact, the late Anantalal Thakur demonstrated that the SDS was NOT written by ??????????? but by his protege, the logician Cannibha??a.
> 
> He provides his evidence, which is entirely convincing, here:
> Anantalal Thakur, ?Cannibha??a and the authorship of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha,? Bulletin of the Adyar Library 25
> (1961): 524?538.
> 
> It is odd that few seem to have taken note of Thakur's impressive detective work and that most still attribute the SDS to ?????.
> 
> 
> best regards,
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2019 11:39:03 AM
> To: alakendu das
> Cc: Indology
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
> 
> No, Purnaprajna Darsana is founded by Madhvacarya ????????????????
> And the author of Sarvadarsana sangraha is Madhavacharya
> ???????????
> 
> 
> On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 10:05 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY, <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Respected scholars,
> As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?
> If , anybody may kindly help me out.
> Alakendu Das.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




From glhart at berkeley.edu  Sun Jun  2 22:53:33 2019
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 19 18:53:33 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
In-Reply-To: <20190602222845.fb07a0b69cdd49d064c7ec10@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <4B86E796-CFCF-405C-BD8D-15C40E7E74E2@berkeley.edu>

For the etymology of M?ya?a see:

The Etymology of the Name S?ya?a

M. B. Emeneau and K. Kushalappa Gowda
Journal of the American Oriental Society
Vol. 94, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1974), pp. 210-212
He argues that S?ya?a is from "sv?mi(n)" + ?a??an" ("elder brother" in Dravidian; ?sv?min" has a Kannada tadbhava ?s?yi?). He goes on to suggest that M?ya?a is from "m?(deva)" (< ?ma?adeva") +  a??an. G. Hart

> On Jun 2, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> 
> A nuanced discussion of the problem of the authorship of the SDS (which includes the evaluation of Thakur's arguments) is available in Jon Yamashita's thesis: A Translation and Study of the P??inidar?ana Chapter of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha (1998), pp. 22?32. It is partly inconclusive:
> 
> In conclusion, both internal and external evidence suggests that the author of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha was not M?dhav?c?rya, the elder brother of S?ya?a. Rather, the author must have been at least a generation later than M?dhav?c?rya. Two possible candidates which have been proposed are [1] the son of S?ya?a ? whose name M?ya?a is to be considered a corruption or regional form of "M?dhava", and [2] Cannibha??a, the naiy?yika author of the Tarkabh???prak??ik? ? either independently or as part of a committee. There is no direct proof to support either choice; the available evidence, however, allows each to be given serious consideration as possible candidates for the authorship. At most, we can say with certainty that under either claim, the Sarvadar?anasa?graha would have been composed during the fourteenth century under the patronage of the Vijayanagara court. (p. 31)
> 
> Best,
> Lubomir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 16:53:24 +0000
> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> 
>> In fact, the late Anantalal Thakur demonstrated that the SDS was NOT written by ??????????? but by his protege, the logician Cannibha??a.
>> 
>> He provides his evidence, which is entirely convincing, here:
>> Anantalal Thakur, ?Cannibha??a and the authorship of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha,? Bulletin of the Adyar Library 25
>> (1961): 524?538.
>> 
>> It is odd that few seem to have taken note of Thakur's impressive detective work and that most still attribute the SDS to ?????.
>> 
>> 
>> best regards,
>> 
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'?tudes,
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>> 
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>> ________________________________
>> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2019 11:39:03 AM
>> To: alakendu das
>> Cc: Indology
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
>> 
>> No, Purnaprajna Darsana is founded by Madhvacarya ????????????????
>> And the author of Sarvadarsana sangraha is Madhavacharya
>> ???????????
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 10:05 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY, <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:
>> Respected scholars,
>> As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?
>> If , anybody may kindly help me out.
>> Alakendu Das.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info><mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Jun  2 23:46:25 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 05:16:25 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
In-Reply-To: <4B86E796-CFCF-405C-BD8D-15C40E7E74E2@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZjXUmUCUV7QyuOQ3OdbtGU_3ibS0axa1k4u2vBdQhj+nA@mail.gmail.com>

Please observe the spelling of the names of two individuals in my mail.

On Mon 3 Jun, 2019, 4:24 AM George Hart via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> For the etymology of M?ya?a see:
>
> The Etymology of the Name S?ya?a
> M. B. Emeneau and K. Kushalappa Gowda
> Journal of the American Oriental Society
> Vol. 94, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1974), pp. 210-212
> He argues that S?ya?a is from "sv?mi(n)" + ?a??an" ("elder brother" in
> Dravidian; ?sv?min" has a Kannada tadbhava ?s?yi?). He goes on to suggest
> that M?ya?a is from "m?(deva)" (< ?ma?adeva") +  a??an. G. Hart
>
> On Jun 2, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> A nuanced discussion of the problem of the authorship of the SDS (which
> includes the evaluation of Thakur's arguments) is available in Jon
> Yamashita's thesis: A Translation and Study of the P??inidar?ana Chapter of
> the Sarvadar?anasa?graha (1998), pp. 22?32. It is partly inconclusive:
>
> In conclusion, both internal and external evidence suggests that the
> author of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha was not M?dhav?c?rya, the elder brother
> of S?ya?a. Rather, the author must have been at least a generation later
> than M?dhav?c?rya. Two possible candidates which have been proposed are [1]
> the son of S?ya?a ? whose name M?ya?a is to be considered a corruption or
> regional form of "M?dhava", and [2] Cannibha??a, the naiy?yika author of
> the Tarkabh???prak??ik? ? either independently or as part of a committee.
> There is no direct proof to support either choice; the available evidence,
> however, allows each to be given serious consideration as possible
> candidates for the authorship. At most, we can say with certainty that
> under either claim, the Sarvadar?anasa?graha would have been composed
> during the fourteenth century under the patronage of the Vijayanagara
> court. (p. 31)
>
> Best,
> Lubomir
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 16:53:24 +0000
> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> In fact, the late Anantalal Thakur demonstrated that the SDS was NOT
> written by ??????????? but by his protege, the logician Cannibha??a.
>
> He provides his evidence, which is entirely convincing, here:
> Anantalal Thakur, ?Cannibha??a and the authorship of the
> Sarvadar?anasa?graha,? Bulletin of the Adyar Library 25
> (1961): 524?538.
>
> It is odd that few seem to have taken note of Thakur's impressive
> detective work and that most still attribute the SDS to ?????.
>
>
> best regards,
>
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2019 11:39:03 AM
> To: alakendu das
> Cc: Indology
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
>
> No, Purnaprajna Darsana is founded by Madhvacarya ????????????????
> And the author of Sarvadarsana sangraha is Madhavacharya
> ???????????
>
>
> On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 10:05 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY, <
> indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info
> <indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:
> Respected scholars,
> As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on
> BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are
> Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of
> "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?
> If , anybody may kindly help me out.
> Alakendu Das.
>
>
>
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info
> <indology-owner at list.indology.info>> (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 04:12:14 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 09:42:14 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vaijayanti digitization
Message-ID: <CADSGPzU6GUMrS_5XVt6EkxGPT=XH-Jd_dav2JUxeaSawEbzieQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,

Kindly find attached the famous Sanskrit lexicon Vaijayanti (????????) by
Yadavaprakasha (??????????) digitized.
https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/vaijayanti_yadavaprakasha/orig/vaijayanti.txt

Annotation and further processing is pending. Will take quite some time to
complete that exercise.

Any suggestions or corrections are welcome.

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From ganesan at ifpindia.org  Mon Jun  3 05:10:29 2019
From: ganesan at ifpindia.org (Dr. T. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 10:40:29 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsg=nh_uv=bBb-vuQw8C5H726-ds9+sjLEotszzRguJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225ca981-fa0d-ff87-1314-380656adc859@ifpindia.org>

It is pronounced as In*d*iya only.


Ganesan


On 03-06-2019 01:48, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as In*t*iya 
> - or In*d*iya?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Artur Karp (ret.)
>
> Uniwersytet Warszawski
> Polska
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-- 



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From andra.kleb at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 06:34:09 2019
From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 15:34:09 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?Q?Ny=C4=81yakaustubha_beyond_the_Pratyak=E1=B9=A3akha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da?=
In-Reply-To: <4fa88ffd-f104-4ca1-baa4-eb07e04c3c5c@Spark>
Message-ID: <f62d5470-6193-44c7-8705-014db7874623@Spark>

Dear members of the list,

I wonder if any of you could share with me a soft copy of Mah?deva?s Ny?yakaustubha for the part of the text after the Pratyak?akha??a (several versions of the latter are located on archive.org). In particular, I am looking for the ?abdakha??a (presumably, the final chapter of the text).
Many thanks in advance!

best,
Andrey


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Jun  3 07:00:07 2019
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 07:00:07 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsg=nh_uv=bBb-vuQw8C5H726-ds9+sjLEotszzRguJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549BF6FBC@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Artur,

The Tamil script does not have letters for the voiced plosives (and no aspirates). For that it uses the corresponding voiceless plosives. After a nasal and between vowels k is pronounced  g: a?ku "there" is pronounces a?gu, ?ku "to become", ?gu or ?hu. Word-initial k is pronounced k, as in k?tal "love". So is double kk, as in the infinitive k?kka "to protect". This phenomenon used to be known by the expression "convertibility of surds and sonants".
The "official" transcription is a?ku, ?ku, k?tal, k?kka. There is an unofficial transcription used in English language publications. For instance, k?tali, " a lovely girl", is transcribed as kathali as well as kadhali.
In our youngest son's class in primary school there was a girl from Surinam called vasutha, that is, via vasut?, from Skt vasudh?.

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: zondag 2 juni 2019 22:18
Aan: indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation

Dear Friends,

Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as Intiya - or Indiya?

Thanks in advance,

Artur Karp (ret.)

Uniwersytet Warszawski
Polska


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Jun  3 07:01:28 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 09:01:28 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549BF6FBC@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvRARo1mavOPbDbaWNzd_kxaK2xfyQsB8+mQRdy1LGZ_Q@mail.gmail.com>

My thanks to all who devoted their time to answer my (retired
non-dravidist's) question.

Thanks,

Artur Karp

pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:00 Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
napisa?(a):

> Dear Artur,
>
> The Tamil script does not have letters for the voiced plosives (and no
> aspirates). For that it uses the corresponding voiceless plosives. After a
> nasal and between vowels k is pronounced  g: a?ku "there" is pronounces
> a?gu, ?ku "to become", ?gu or ?hu. Word-initial k is pronounced k, as in
> k?tal "love". So is double kk, as in the infinitive k?kka "to protect".
> This phenomenon used to be known by the expression "convertibility of surds
> and sonants".
> The "official" transcription is a?ku, ?ku, k?tal, k?kka. There is an
> unofficial transcription used in English language publications. For
> instance, k?tali, " a lovely girl", is transcribed as kathali as well as
> kadhali.
> In our youngest son's class in primary school there was a girl from
> Surinam called vasutha, that is, via vasut?, from Skt vasudh?.
>
> Herman
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> ------------------------------
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp
> via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> *Verzonden:* zondag 2 juni 2019 22:18
> *Aan:* indology
> *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as In*t*iya -
> or In*d*iya?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Artur Karp (ret.)
>
> Uniwersytet Warszawski
> Polska
>


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Mon Jun  3 07:13:04 2019
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 07:13:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
Message-ID: <1559545498.S.76095.autosave.drafts.1559545984.24063@webmail.rediffmail.com>

Professor ,Thank you for your elaboration on the issue in question.However,your last line evokes interest in me.It is mentioned in the introduction toSDS,that Madhavacharya,acted as Prime Minister to the Founder monarchs of the Vijaynagar empire namely Harihar or Bukka,and later came to be known as VidyaRanya Muni in his later ages,when he endorsed Sankara's views and became the Prefect(Adhakshya) of the Sringeri Math laid down by Sankara.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Alakendu Das.
Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: Lubom  r Ondra  ka via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 01:58:06 GMT+0530
To: Matthew Kapstein &lt;mkapstei at uchicago.edu&gt;
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya

A nuanced discussion of the problem of the authorship of the SDS (which includes the evaluation of Thakur's arguments) is available in Jon Yamashita's thesis: A Translation and Study of the P??inidar?ana Chapter of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha (1998), pp. 22?32. It is partly inconclusive:

In conclusion, both internal and external evidence suggests that the author of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha was not M?dhav?c?rya, the elder brother of S?ya?a. Rather, the author must have been at least a generation later than M?dhav?c?rya. Two possible candidates which have been proposed are [1] the son of S?ya?a ?&nbsp;whose name M?ya?a is to be considered a corruption or regional form of "M?dhava", and [2] Cannibha??a, the naiy?yika author of the Tarkabh???prak??ik? ?&nbsp;either independently or as part of a committee. There is no direct proof to support either choice; the available evidence, however, allows each to be given serious consideration as possible candidates for the authorship. At most, we can say with certainty that under either claim, the Sarvadar?anasa?graha would have been composed during the fourteenth century under the patronage of the Vijayanagara court. (p. 31)

Best,
Lubomir




On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 16:53:24 +0000
Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt; wrote:

&gt; In fact, the late Anantalal Thakur demonstrated that the SDS was NOT written by ?reg;??????????&nbsp;but by his protege, the logician Cannibha??a.
&gt; 
&gt; He provides his evidence, which is entirely convincing, here:
&gt; Anantalal Thakur, ?Cannibha??a and the authorship of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha,? Bulletin of the Adyar Library 25
&gt; (1961): 524?538.
&gt; 
&gt; It is odd that few seem to have taken note of Thakur's impressive detective work and that most still attribute the SDS to ?reg;????.
&gt; 
&gt; 
&gt; best regards,
&gt; 
&gt; Matthew
&gt; 
&gt; 
&gt; Matthew Kapstein
&gt; Directeur d'?copy;tudes,
&gt; Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
&gt; 
&gt; Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
&gt; The University of Chicago
&gt; ________________________________
&gt; From: INDOLOGY &lt;indology-bounces at list.indology.info&gt; on behalf of Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2019 11:39:03 AM
&gt; To: alakendu das
&gt; Cc: Indology
&gt; Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
&gt; 
&gt; No, Purnaprajna Darsana is founded by Madhvacarya ?????reg;???????????
&gt; And the author of Sarvadarsana sangraha is Madhavacharya
&gt; ?reg;??????????
&gt; 
&gt; 
&gt; On Sun 2 Jun, 2019, 10:05 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY, &lt;indology at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology at list.indology.info&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt; Respected scholars,
&gt; As, presently I am deeply involved in preparing an article on BrahmaSutra's interpretations,I do need to clarify one doubt .Are Madhavacharya of "Sarvadarshan Samgraha" and Madhavacharya of "PurnaPragnyaDarshan" fame one and identical?
&gt; If ,&nbsp;anybody may kindly help me out.
&gt; Alakendu Das.
&gt; 
&gt; 
&gt; 
&gt; Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
&gt; 
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; INDOLOGY mailing list
&gt; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info&gt;
&gt; indology-owner at list.indology.info&lt;mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info&gt; (messages to the list's managing committee)
&gt; http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Mon Jun  3 07:16:40 2019
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 07:16:40 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhavacharya
Message-ID: <20190603071640.14439.qmail@f4mail-235-120.rediffmail.com>

To All,Thanks to all who helped me disentangle this issue concerning the proper identity of Madhavacharya .&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Alakendu Das.



Sent from RediffmailNG on Android


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 07:19:36 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 12:49:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vaijayanti digitization
In-Reply-To: <CADSGPzU6GUMrS_5XVt6EkxGPT=XH-Jd_dav2JUxeaSawEbzieQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzWPFVWp2E1_pc1nAVpZDQsaowpGuOEvieF6EP2bArVTjw@mail.gmail.com>

Acknowledgement was accidentally missed from previous mail, though it
appeared in txt file.

The work is digitized painstakingly by Navya Sahiyi Kasturi.


On Mon, 3 Jun 2019, 09:42 Dhaval Patel, <drdhaval2785 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear scholars,
>
> Kindly find attached the famous Sanskrit lexicon Vaijayanti (????????) by
> Yadavaprakasha (??????????) digitized.
>
> https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/vaijayanti_yadavaprakasha/orig/vaijayanti.txt
>
> Annotation and further processing is pending. Will take quite some time to
> complete that exercise.
>
> Any suggestions or corrections are welcome.
>
> --
> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
> Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
> www.sanskritworld.in
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADSGPzU6GUMrS_5XVt6EkxGPT%3DXH-Jd_dav2JUxeaSawEbzieQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADSGPzU6GUMrS_5XVt6EkxGPT%3DXH-Jd_dav2JUxeaSawEbzieQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Jun  3 09:21:43 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 11:21:43 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvRARo1mavOPbDbaWNzd_kxaK2xfyQsB8+mQRdy1LGZ_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvQNVN4hdvEKoQ5oUrq=YO1A6P_phxcNhj68ePBuDTb6A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

allow me to ask several questions, re pronunciation of Tamil.

The first of them:

Tamil ?????????????  - is transliterated as T?vukk???am. Is it formally
pronounced as Tivu*kk*uttam - or as Tivu*k*uttam?

Artur Karp

pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:01 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):

> My thanks to all who devoted their time to answer my (retired
> non-dravidist's) question.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Artur Karp
>
> pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:00 Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear Artur,
>>
>> The Tamil script does not have letters for the voiced plosives (and no
>> aspirates). For that it uses the corresponding voiceless plosives. After a
>> nasal and between vowels k is pronounced  g: a?ku "there" is pronounces
>> a?gu, ?ku "to become", ?gu or ?hu. Word-initial k is pronounced k, as in
>> k?tal "love". So is double kk, as in the infinitive k?kka "to protect".
>> This phenomenon used to be known by the expression "convertibility of surds
>> and sonants".
>> The "official" transcription is a?ku, ?ku, k?tal, k?kka. There is an
>> unofficial transcription used in English language publications. For
>> instance, k?tali, " a lovely girl", is transcribed as kathali as well as
>> kadhali.
>> In our youngest son's class in primary school there was a girl from
>> Surinam called vasutha, that is, via vasut?, from Skt vasudh?.
>>
>> Herman
>>
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com
>> ------------------------------
>> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp
>> via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
>> *Verzonden:* zondag 2 juni 2019 22:18
>> *Aan:* indology
>> *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
>>
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as In*t*iya -
>> or In*d*iya?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Artur Karp (ret.)
>>
>> Uniwersytet Warszawski
>> Polska
>>
>


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 09:43:59 2019
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 18:43:59 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sculpture 3000bce to 1500ce
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrB545axDJT3ZSq9S9hAscMYzCJfaC=QTNJq+ERpNyLjAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm wondering if anyone is able to help with a query on sculptural
representations of wrestling in South Asia?
Actually, I'm particularly interested in any representations related, in
any way, to wrestling, from as far back as 3000bce to around 1500ce.

I'd like to talk with someone off list, if possible.

Thanks.


All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
(OICD), Kyoto
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University
Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
University

Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
 Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
 Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)







   -


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Jun  3 09:52:00 2019
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 09:52:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvQNVN4hdvEKoQ5oUrq=YO1A6P_phxcNhj68ePBuDTb6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549BF712C@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Artur, there is an article about the difference in pronunciation of -k- and -kk- by Leigh Lisker. But at the moment I can't remember the title of the article and where is was published. I hope someone else can help you with the details.

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 3 juni 2019 11:21
Aan: indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation

Dear Friends,

allow me to ask several questions, re pronunciation of Tamil.

The first of them:

Tamil ?????????????  - is transliterated as T?vukk???am. Is it formally pronounced as Tivukkuttam - or as Tivukuttam?

Artur Karp

pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:01 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl<mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> napisa?(a):
My thanks to all who devoted their time to answer my (retired non-dravidist's) question.

Thanks,

Artur Karp

pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:00 Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl<mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> napisa?(a):
Dear Artur,

The Tamil script does not have letters for the voiced plosives (and no aspirates). For that it uses the corresponding voiceless plosives. After a nasal and between vowels k is pronounced  g: a?ku "there" is pronounces a?gu, ?ku "to become", ?gu or ?hu. Word-initial k is pronounced k, as in k?tal "love". So is double kk, as in the infinitive k?kka "to protect". This phenomenon used to be known by the expression "convertibility of surds and sonants".
The "official" transcription is a?ku, ?ku, k?tal, k?kka. There is an unofficial transcription used in English language publications. For instance, k?tali, " a lovely girl", is transcribed as kathali as well as kadhali.
In our youngest son's class in primary school there was a girl from Surinam called vasutha, that is, via vasut?, from Skt vasudh?.

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Artur Karp via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>]
Verzonden: zondag 2 juni 2019 22:18
Aan: indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation

Dear Friends,

Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as Intiya - or Indiya?

Thanks in advance,

Artur Karp (ret.)

Uniwersytet Warszawski
Polska


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Jun  3 10:20:52 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 12:20:52 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549BF712C@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsfTbz_sbSxiBjenitBb7FnRxTxBzTufyMyauM6P-Ma-Q@mail.gmail.com>

As  a non-dravidist:

 ????????????? is a compound, two elements:  t?vu (s. dv?pa) -
'island' and k???am
- 'aggregation'.

In ???? the first -k (??) does belongs neither to t?vu nor to k???am. In
writing it marks then the 'space' linking two separate words into one
compound. Is it pronounced? Or simply  left out?


pon., 3 cze 2019 o 11:52 Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
napisa?(a):

> Dear Artur, there is an article about the difference in pronunciation of
> -k- and -kk- by Leigh Lisker. But at the moment I can't remember the title
> of the article and where is was published. I hope someone else can help you
> with the details.
>
> Herman
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> ------------------------------
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp
> via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> *Verzonden:* maandag 3 juni 2019 11:21
> *Aan:* indology
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> allow me to ask several questions, re pronunciation of Tamil.
>
> The first of them:
>
> Tamil ?????????????  - is transliterated as T?vukk???am. Is it formally
> pronounced as Tivu*kk*uttam - or as Tivu*k*uttam?
>
> Artur Karp
>
> pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:01 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisa?(a):
>
>> My thanks to all who devoted their time to answer my (retired
>> non-dravidist's) question.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Artur Karp
>>
>> pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:00 Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
>> napisa?(a):
>>
>>> Dear Artur,
>>>
>>> The Tamil script does not have letters for the voiced plosives (and no
>>> aspirates). For that it uses the corresponding voiceless plosives. After a
>>> nasal and between vowels k is pronounced  g: a?ku "there" is pronounces
>>> a?gu, ?ku "to become", ?gu or ?hu. Word-initial k is pronounced k, as in
>>> k?tal "love". So is double kk, as in the infinitive k?kka "to protect".
>>> This phenomenon used to be known by the expression "convertibility of surds
>>> and sonants".
>>> The "official" transcription is a?ku, ?ku, k?tal, k?kka. There is an
>>> unofficial transcription used in English language publications. For
>>> instance, k?tali, " a lovely girl", is transcribed as kathali as well as
>>> kadhali.
>>> In our youngest son's class in primary school there was a girl from
>>> Surinam called vasutha, that is, via vasut?, from Skt vasudh?.
>>>
>>> Herman
>>>
>>>
>>> Herman Tieken
>>> Stationsweg 58
>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>> The Netherlands
>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp
>>> via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
>>> *Verzonden:* zondag 2 juni 2019 22:18
>>> *Aan:* indology
>>> *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
>>>
>>> Dear Friends,
>>>
>>> Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as In*t*iya
>>> - or In*d*iya?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> Artur Karp (ret.)
>>>
>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski
>>> Polska
>>>
>>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Jun  3 10:41:25 2019
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 10:41:25 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvQNVN4hdvEKoQ5oUrq=YO1A6P_phxcNhj68ePBuDTb6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549BF7145@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Artur, I have found the reference:

Leigh Lisker, "The Tamil Occlusives: Short vs. Long or Voiced vs. Voiceless". Indian Linguistics 1958.

Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 3 juni 2019 11:21
Aan: indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation

Dear Friends,

allow me to ask several questions, re pronunciation of Tamil.

The first of them:

Tamil ?????????????  - is transliterated as T?vukk???am. Is it formally pronounced as Tivukkuttam - or as Tivukuttam?

Artur Karp

pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:01 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl<mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>> napisa?(a):
My thanks to all who devoted their time to answer my (retired non-dravidist's) question.

Thanks,

Artur Karp

pon., 3 cze 2019 o 09:00 Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl<mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> napisa?(a):
Dear Artur,

The Tamil script does not have letters for the voiced plosives (and no aspirates). For that it uses the corresponding voiceless plosives. After a nasal and between vowels k is pronounced  g: a?ku "there" is pronounces a?gu, ?ku "to become", ?gu or ?hu. Word-initial k is pronounced k, as in k?tal "love". So is double kk, as in the infinitive k?kka "to protect". This phenomenon used to be known by the expression "convertibility of surds and sonants".
The "official" transcription is a?ku, ?ku, k?tal, k?kka. There is an unofficial transcription used in English language publications. For instance, k?tali, " a lovely girl", is transcribed as kathali as well as kadhali.
In our youngest son's class in primary school there was a girl from Surinam called vasutha, that is, via vasut?, from Skt vasudh?.

Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Artur Karp via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>]
Verzonden: zondag 2 juni 2019 22:18
Aan: indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Tamil pronunciation

Dear Friends,

Tamil ?????? is transliterated as Intiya. Is it pronounced as Intiya - or Indiya?

Thanks in advance,

Artur Karp (ret.)

Uniwersytet Warszawski
Polska


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jun  3 13:20:13 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 06:20:13 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcCj+d6ZSCGQLWivxqe2zqYU-TCMBKcyfszezkf0eLQhw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???? ???? ??????????? ??? ????? ???????? ?
???????? ? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????
That Krishna will fulfill the love of all those who have set their hearts
on him.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From rsalomon at uw.edu  Mon Jun  3 16:48:35 2019
From: rsalomon at uw.edu (Richard G. Salomon)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 09:48:35 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sculpture 3000bce to 1500ce
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrB545axDJT3ZSq9S9hAscMYzCJfaC=QTNJq+ERpNyLjAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+bmU3YrDFaBf=SEsrorxFqDYVeRti49Wc91uCJFPwHWQ2WNZQ@mail.gmail.com>

There is an excellent image of two wrestlers going at it on an inscribed
slab in the Peshawar Museum  which is generally described as a "wrestler's
weight." It is illustrated, among other places, in the exhibition catalogue
"Gandhara: das Buddhistiche Erbe Pakistans," no. 220, p. 324. A scan of the
image is attached. For the inscription, see CKI no. 143 (
https://gandhari.org/a_inscription.php?catid=CKI0143)

Rich Salomon


On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 2:46 AM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm wondering if anyone is able to help with a query on sculptural
> representations of wrestling in South Asia?
> Actually, I'm particularly interested in any representations related, in
> any way, to wrestling, from as far back as 3000bce to around 1500ce.
>
> I'd like to talk with someone off list, if possible.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> ????? ???????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
> University, Japan
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
> Japan
> Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
> (OICD), Kyoto
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
> National University
> Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
> University
>
> Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +81-80-9811-3235
> Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
>  Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
> <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>  Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>
> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From shrinsaha at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 18:44:38 2019
From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 00:14:38 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_Origin_of_Geometry_in_India:_A_Study_in_the_=C5=9Aulbas=C5=ABtras_by_Ramakrishna_Bhattachar?=
Message-ID: <CAHuz+CqmbxG1=SqmFd0dBD235u-3owry_468MAVQf6pm3+L2rw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

This is to inform you of a recent publication by one of our senior
colleagues Dr. *Ramkrishna Bhattacharya.*


*The Origin of Geometry in India: A Study in the ?ulbas?tras*

This book is the first complete study of the origin of geometry in India.
In Ancient India, brick-built fire-altars (citi-s) were ordained for the
Soma sacrifice, a Vedic rite, which led to the compilation of rule-books
for making and arranging bricks. These volumes, called ?ulbas?tra-s,
represent the first available texts of both geometry and mensuration, and
were composed from 600 BCE, although the actual practice goes back to c.
1500 BCE. This book begins by detailing the history of geometry in Egypt,
Mesopotamia, and Greece, and shows that geometry everywhere starts with
brick-built structures, rather than the measurement of land. It emphasizes
that geometry in India, unlike in Greece, was side-based rather than
angle-based. The text is profusely illustrated.


*Ramkrishna Bhattacharya* taught English at the University of Calcutta, and
served as an Emeritus Fellow of the University Grants Commission, India. He
is currently a Fellow of the Pavlov Institute, India. His publications
include Studies on the Carvaka/Lokayata (2009; 2011), and his papers on the
history of science in India have appeared in a number of international
journals.


*978-1-5275-3094-2 www.cambridgescholars.com
<http://www.cambridgescholars.com/> Cover design ? Cambridge Scholars,
2019  *



With regards,
Niranjan Saha



https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha


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From james_fitzgerald at brown.edu  Mon Jun  3 19:50:53 2019
From: james_fitzgerald at brown.edu (Fitzgerald, James)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 15:50:53 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_query_on_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <677A0FBA-721C-4C74-809F-E01709F19732@utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD7PMUhQYg7cNs_MmO6x8jCXHO2MiQag1XYMn0X2uqt-fsN+mg@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear Matthew and colleagues,

I have enjoyed reading through this interesting discussion and would like
to add my following two cents.

I would suggest looking at the Manu-B?haspati *sa?v?da* of the
*Mok?adharmaparvan* (*MBh* 12.194-199) if you would like to see one of the
early ?epic? attempts to articulate and use a doctrine of ?evolution? in
the service of attaining the *summum bonum*. The text brings into the
foreground the matter of your question regarding the progression in the
*vik?ti*-s of the *m?laprak?ti* from subtle to gross. The text poses many
terminological difficulties, and (to quote a recent paper I wrote on this
piece) ?Though hardly perfectly smooth reading, the Manu-B?haspati is not
as structurally problematic as some of the other texts of its
*Mok?adharmaparvan* cohort. Frauwallner overstated matters when he wrote of
the Manu-B?haspati:

?Regrettably the text has been highly deformed. It displays no obvious

structure, nor any effective elaboration of its ideas. Thus it was
particularly

vulnerable to insertions and deformations. Nonetheless the main ideas can be

ascertained with certainty (Frauwallner, *Geschichte*, 1953, vol. 1, p.
103).?

"As we will see below, the text does display a clear structure overall,
though it is one that does fade about two-thirds of the way through, until
it is re-instated in several framing stanzas at the end. The Manu-B?haspati
is a basically unified text, but one which I suspect had an interesting
compositional history . . .? (Fitzgerald, ?The *Buddhi* in Early Epic
*Adhy?tma* Discourse (the Dialog of Manu and B?haspati), *JIP* (2017)
45:767?816.


The ManuB text is not ?S??khya,? but it is one contributing to what I call
the ?S??khya? revolution against *yoga* that seems to have taken place
sometime around 100-200 CE and which is implied by 12.289-90 of the
*Mok?adharma* (regarding which see my ?The S??khya-Yoga ?Manifesto? at *MBh*
12.289-290,? in *Battle, Bards, and Br?hmins, *John Brockington, ed.
(Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 2012): 259-300; for light remarks on ?the
S??khya revolution? see too the end of my introduction to my selection ?A
Prescription for *yoga* and Power in the *Mah?bh?rata,?* in *Yoga in
Practice,* David White, ed. (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2011):
43-57).

Possibly directly relevant to the concern you raise, Matthew, are the
concluding remarks of my *JIP *discussion of the Manu-B?haspati text (pp.
813-14): [Begin Quotation]

*Intimations of the Mythic Past and the Philosophical Future*

If these last remarks have been trying to suggest that the *buddhi* has a
more complicated career in the *mok?adharma*s than might appear on the
surface, I turn now to an idea pertinent to the *buddhi* that comes from a
mythic past much earlier than the Manu-B?haspati and which will form part
of its even more complicated philosophical future after not very long. Let
us briefly revisit the passage at 195.23, where Manu described the fateful
mis-taking [sic] of the psychological self for the true Self. Manu?s
language in that passage deliberately brings the *buddhi* into alignment
with the old stories of God?s (Praj?pati?s) recognizing himself as the
?Great Self? that is the totality of his new world-creation (*mahat ?tman*;
van Buitenen?s paper ?The Large ?tman;? (1964)133 explicated these
connections). This self-recognition by a being who stands on the limen
between the phenomenal world and the unmanifested transcendent principle of
all things is the reason that many other *adhy?tma* listings of fundamental
principles (*tattva*s) identify the principle *buddhi* as the *mahat ?tman*.
In a number of *adhy?tma* texts besides the Manu-B?haspati, and in later
S??khya philosophy, the *mahat ?tman* is spoken of as both an abstract,
comprehensive reality that is impersonal, a neuter noun, ?*mahat*? (?The
Whole,? ?The Universal,? ?The Large,? or ?Extensive and Comprehensive
[Reality]?) and as a male personal being, ?*mah?n ?tm?*? [in the nominative
singular] (?The Whole,? or ?The Universal,? or ?The Large,? or ?The
Extensive and Comprehensive [Being, Self, or Person]?). At 195.23, when the
*buddhi*?s mistake that culminates the process of the embodied soul?s
calling into being a new embodiment is described, it is spoken of in terms
of a perceptual error in which a ?large,? *mahat*, form was substituted for
something that is not really large, but small (*s?k?ma*).

*cala? yath? d???ipatha? paraiti s?k?ma? mahad r?pam iv?bhip?ti* /

*svar?pam ?locayate ca r?pa? para? tath? buddhipatha? paraiti* // 12.195.23
//

As when a moving object is passing out of the range of vision and yet one
preserves that now tiny object as if it were still large, so too does the
highest reality go beyond the purview of the intellect (*buddhipatha*) and
one intuits his phenomenal form to be his essential form.

The visual object moving out of sight, and now *s?k?ma*, is retained in the
*buddhi* as a ?large *r?pa*,? and similarly the *s?k?ma svar?pa*, the true
Self, is intuited as a *mahat r?pa*. This opposition of the true *s?k?ma*
soul and the *mahat r?pa* of the newly (re-)constituted phenomenal self is
described here in language directly parallel to God?s recognizing his newly
fashioned ?Whole? or ?Great? world as himself. I suspect we have here an
echo of other texts and accounts that stood in the back of the mind of the
author of the Manu-B?haspati. Or perhaps it is a deliberately subtle
inter-textual allusion to other *adhy?tma* accounts. Either way, the
*buddhi*?s error in Manu?s teaching is directly linked to the verbal and
doctrinal parallelism of the *buddhi* and the *mahat* or the ?*mah?n ?tm?*?
of other philosophical texts. It also aligns it with being the source (in
later *adhy?tma* texts and in S??khya) of the new principle (*tattva*) yet
to come, the *aha?k?ra*, ?ego.?134 The truly remarkable ?depth? of the
*buddhi* was going to grow much greater before long.

*Foot note 133:* One of van Buitenen?s truly inspired insights was his
tracing the broad  background of later *adhy?tma *ontologies back to
Upani?adic narratives in which the creation of the world is accomplished by
a transcendent being?s willing itself to become many and then recognizing
the resultant creation to be himself. ?This self-recognition, this
self-consciousness could be singled out as the first phase of a creation
process? completing itself through a number of phases each of which could
be identified as a station and later as a principle or a rubric? (van
Buitenen 1964, p. 108). Van Buitenen made an apt suggestion here that the
word *buddhi?s* basic sense of ?awareness? suits it particularly well to
this critical node of cosmic and individual being (ibid., p. 114).

*Footnote 134:* It is important to note, however, that Manu?s notion of the
*buddhi* does not contain within its being any seeds of the physical world,
though the later developed theories of the *mahat* and the *aha?k?ra* do.
[End Quotation]

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:22 PM Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Matthew,
> Given that the Sankhya theory of creation is not understood in terms of
> physics, rather in psychological/ spiritual(?) terms. It seems to stand to
> reason that creation will not start from a source that is a mere vehicle
> for the ultimate freedom. What may seem much more odd is that the ultimate
> freedom depends on the experience of being able to discriminate or isolate
> unintentional consciousness (?????:) from materiality (???????:). This
> discrimination has to be embodied, hence the auxiliary ?material/ gross?
> body.
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Edeltraud Harzer
> University of Texas in Austin
>
>
> On May 27, 2019, at 5:20 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Indological colleagues,
>
> One of the peculiarities of S??khya thought is its unusual theory of
> "evolution" (though it might better be termed "emanation") which proceeds
> from the subtle modifications of the *m?laprak?ti* to those that are
> increasingly coarse, namely the organs of sense and of action, and finally
> to their physical objects. This seems a very odd evolutionary path when we
> first encounter it and I am wondering if there has been any work that seeks
> to explain just why S??khya adopted what to us may seem a remarkably
> counter-intuitive framework. I do have my own theory about this, but I
> would not want to publish it if someone else has already come up with a
> similar idea. I would therefore be grateful for any suggestions you may
> have concerning scholarship that seeks to explain just why it is that
> S??khyaproceeds from top to bottom, as it were, rather than the other way
> around.
>
> with thanks in advance for your advice about this,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From drdj at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Jun  3 20:11:34 2019
From: drdj at austin.utexas.edu (Donald R Davis)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 20:11:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil Lecturer Position, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <D91AE91B.34356%drdj@austin.utexas.edu>

The Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is seeking a full-time lecturer in the Tamil language, to begin September 1st, 2019.  The successful candidate will be responsible for teaching three courses per semester; Tamil at the Elementary and Intermediate levels, plus a possible advanced course in literary Tamil.  Preference will be given to candidates who are qualified to teach a second Dravidian language at the elementary level, preferably Kannada or Telugu.  Located at the flagship campus of the University of Texas System, the Department of Asian Studies provides an excellent and exciting context for teaching and research in the classical and modern languages of the South Asian region.

For more information and to submit an application, please go to https://apply.interfolio.com/63404.

The deadline for applications is June 15, 2019.






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From drdj at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Jun  3 20:11:59 2019
From: drdj at austin.utexas.edu (Donald R Davis)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 20:11:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindi Lecturer Position, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <D91AE935.34358%drdj@austin.utexas.edu>

The Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is seeking a full-time lecturer in the Hindi language, to begin September 1st, 2019.  The successful candidate will be responsible for teaching three courses per semester, which will include a combination of the following: Hindi at the Accelerated Beginning, Intermediate, and Advanced levels, plus a course in Conversational Hindi.  Candidates who are also literate in the Urdu script are preferred.  Located at the flagship campus of the University of Texas System, the Department of Asian Studies provides an excellent and exciting context for teaching and research in the classical and modern languages of the South Asian region.

For more information and to submit an application, please go to: https://apply.interfolio.com/63403.

The deadline for applications is June 15, 2019.


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Mon Jun  3 22:14:25 2019
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 19 18:14:25 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nUNKguHWz01nBWzDvNdqd53egM+Mm-LEfB=_k3VZ98oJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zuLZ1RwtPNMQxsTzaG_6sF6KiM018njxpPMUAiXxA3dwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Walter,

Can you tell list-members how your interesting book can be ordered?

Thank you.  I look forward to reading it.

George Thompson

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 8:03 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Inhalt
>
>
>
> Vorwort
>
> Einleitung
>
>
>
> 1) Worum handelt es sich beim Soma?
>
> 2) ?gveda X. 119: Der Rausch des Kiebitz.
>
> 3) ?gvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, pharmakologisch, in den
> Augen der Kavis.
>
> 4) ?gvedisch p?r.
>
> 5) Die Wurzeln der Traumdeutung in Indien und Griechenland ? Eine
> vergleichende Betrachtung.
>
> 6) Schiffahrt im Rigveda.
>
> 7) Die Zehnk?nigsschlacht am Raviflu?.
>
> 8) Atri nimmt ein hei?es Bad ? zur Bedeutung von *gharm?*, *om?n *und *?b?sa
> *im Rigveda.
>
>
>
> Literatur
>
> Behandelte W?rter
>
> Stellenverzeichnis
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Tue Jun  4 05:21:07 2019
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 07:21:07 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zuLZ1RwtPNMQxsTzaG_6sF6KiM018njxpPMUAiXxA3dwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nW9_+c08UbJZp0OdcqDpO53CpsH_8ihk+9D=VU8u2vpLg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear George,

by using the link I had previously sent
https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A click
adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb" proper
(displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.

The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html

Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the publishers:
bestellung at uvhw.de
peter.junkermann at uvhw.de

Hope, it helps!
Best wishes,
Walter


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 06:28:19 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 11:58:19 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0g4KSP4KSV4KS+4KSV4KWN4KS34KSw4KSo4KS+4KSu4KSu4KS+4KSy4KS+IG9mIOCkuOCkvuCkp+ClgeCkleCksuCktuCko+Ckvw==?=
In-Reply-To: <CADSGPzUxwQc93=wzxy_-thovgD3UMpt7pOgb7hZ2hyvk15zzuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUWtfsLUzuBbMxsTtGQ+Djiu4aHuFBWsdX1--JerqbkgA@mail.gmail.com>

Edit -

The author name is 'Sudh?kala?aga?i (??????????)'.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 11:38, Dhaval Patel <drdhaval2785 at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is my privilege to share  with you the abovementioned work in digital
> format, properly annotated.
>
> txt file -
> https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/ekaksharanamamala_sadhukalashagani/orig/ekaksharanamamala.txt
>
> Various other formats like xml, html, md, babylon, json and stardict are
> also available at
> https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/tree/master/ekaksharanamamala_sadhukalashagani
> .
>
> This is part of a larger project trying to make traditional Sanskrit
> lexica available in digital format for better accessibility. There are
> various Sanskrit koshas in various stages of development.
>
> Your feedback is highly appreciated.
>
>
> --
> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
> Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
> www.sanskritworld.in
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADSGPzUxwQc93%3Dwzxy_-thovgD3UMpt7pOgb7hZ2hyvk15zzuA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADSGPzUxwQc93%3Dwzxy_-thovgD3UMpt7pOgb7hZ2hyvk15zzuA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From andra.kleb at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 06:43:47 2019
From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 15:43:47 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9Aabdakha=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_Ny=C4=81yakaustubha?=
In-Reply-To: <bc441623-5f27-4027-b31c-e01736a25b7f@Spark>
Message-ID: <16141c29-3b0c-4155-999f-33d6cc087025@Spark>

Dear members of the list,

I noticed that my yesterday's email had some problems with diacritics. In the hope that this could be one of the reasons for the absence of replies, I take the liberty of repeating my query.
I am looking for a soft copy of the ?abdakha??a (or, ?abdapariccheda?) of the Ny?yakaustubha by Mah?deva. According to the bibliographical note in NSR Tatacharya's ??bdabodham?m??s?, it was published 1982 by the Saraswathi Mahal Library in Tanjavore.

Many thanks in advance!

best,
Andrey


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From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be  Tue Jun  4 07:31:34 2019
From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 09:31:34 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_Origin_of_Geometry_in_India:_A_Study_in_the_=C5=9Aulbas=C5=ABtras_by_Ramakrishna_Bhattachar?=
In-Reply-To: <CAHuz+CqmbxG1=SqmFd0dBD235u-3owry_468MAVQf6pm3+L2rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d10fc44c63c396a44084a7b675d2e832@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>

Dear members of the list,

I take the opportunity of the announcement below to remind you that my 
book on the Baudhayana Sulbasutra, published by Droz, Geneva, 2016, also 
contains a very detailed chapter on the beginning of mathematics in 
India. Its title is Les math?matiques de l'autel v?dique - Le Baudhayana 
Sulbasutra et son commentaire Sulbadipika (see 
https://www.droz.org/fr/6416-9782600013826.html). It is not mentionned 
in the below described book, probably because, written in French, it 
escaped the attention of the only-English reading scholars. Unhappily, 
and despite a very good review in English (see the attached file), I 
couldn't find yet a not too expensive way of translating it into 
English.
I also remind the members of the list that I am a mathematician (also 
teaching the history of mathematics) trained in Sanskrit, especially 
with Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat, who signed the Preface of the book, with 
a PhD thesis devoted to Indian mathematics.

Best regards,

Dr J.M.Delire,
Lecturer on Science and civilisation of India and on History of 
mathematics at the University of Brussels
Professor of Mathematics at the Haute ecole de Bruxelles-Brabant


Le 03.06.2019 20:44, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY a ?crit?:
> Dear List,
> 
> This is to inform you of a recent publication by one of our senior
> colleagues Dr.?RAMKRISHNA BHATTACHARYA.
> 
> _THE ORIGIN OF GEOMETRY IN INDIA: A STUDY IN THE ?ULBAS?TRAS_
> 
> This book is the first complete study of the origin of geometry in
> India. In Ancient India, brick-built fire-altars (citi-s) were
> ordained for the Soma sacrifice, a Vedic rite, which led to the
> compilation of rule-books for making and arranging bricks. These
> volumes, called??ulbas?tra-s, represent the first available texts
> of both geometry and mensuration, and were composed from 600 BCE,
> although the actual practice goes back to c. 1500 BCE. This book
> begins by detailing the history of geometry in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and
> Greece, and shows that geometry everywhere starts with brick-built
> structures, rather than the measurement of land. It emphasizes that
> geometry in India, unlike in Greece, was side-based rather than
> angle-based. The text is profusely illustrated.
> 
> ?
> RAMKRISHNA BHATTACHARYA?taught English at the University of Calcutta,
> and served as an Emeritus Fellow of the University Grants Commission,
> India. He is currently a Fellow of the Pavlov Institute, India. His
> publications include Studies on the Carvaka/Lokayata (2009; 2011), and
> his papers on the history of science in India have appeared in a
> number of international journals.?
> 
> 978-1-5275-3094-2?WWW.CAMBRIDGESCHOLARS.COM [1]?COVER DESIGN ?
> CAMBRIDGE SCHOLARS, 2019??
> 
> With regards,
> Niranjan Saha
> 
> https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha [2]
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.cambridgescholars.com/
> [2] https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
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From baums at lmu.de  Tue Jun  4 08:15:22 2019
From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 10:15:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] sculpture 3000bce to 1500ce
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrB545axDJT3ZSq9S9hAscMYzCJfaC=QTNJq+ERpNyLjAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87ef49g411.fsf@lmu.de>

Dear Patrick,

Rich already mentioned the illustrated wrestlers? weight in the
Peshawar Museum (findspot unknown, but somewhere in Gandh?ra).

Quite a large number of wrestlers? weights have actually been
found, in India (especially the Mathura area) as well as Nepal and
Pakistan. Many of these are illustrated with wrestling and/or
mythological scenes. For an interesting inscribed one from
Mathura, illustrating two scenes from the K???a legend, see pp.
163?164 in

   Stanislaw J. Czuma. 1985. Kushan Sculpture: Images from Early
   India. Cleveland: The Cleveland Museum of Art.

The Br?hm? inscription (printed upside down in Czuma) reads

   ?r?d?mapharasya

(the reading in Czuma is also a little off). Note that the name
element ?phara? appears to be Iranian and thus provides a
connection to the northwest. Also, several weights made from
Mathura sandstone were found in Gandh?ra, possibly left behind by
wrestlers who had travelled for a competition.

For a good overview and bibliography of such wrestlers? weights
see

   Angelo Andrea di Castro. 2007. Of Handles and Names: Remarks on
   Wrestlers? Weights. East and West 57, 367?376.

All best,
Stefan

-- 
Stefan Baums, Ph.D.
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen





From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Tue Jun  4 11:56:19 2019
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 13:56:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nW9_+c08UbJZp0OdcqDpO53CpsH_8ihk+9D=VU8u2vpLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbrh9-SN9wbkAiRod1=cD55ws8EBYdj-zxcMw38fN5Pr+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

Thank you for this info and the previous ones concerning the Rgvedic topic.

I think that it is high time to organize a round-table on the Rgveda at
which various scholars could meet. I know very well that my work is simply
ignored by some scholar (for the moment I will not reveal their names,
although some of you probably know them). To be ignored is even worse than
to be criticized.

So at such a round-table meeting I would expect a fierce discussion with
fruitful conclusions which will open new perspectives in our research. No
exclusive, but inclusive. We, Poles, are good in organizing round-tables
debates, the fall of communism in the Eastern Europe began with such a
debate 30 years ago.

Regards,

Joanna

P.S. I am sorry for my mistakes in English. My mother tongue is Polish and,
although I have made a lot of effort to learn English as well as I could,
 my thoughts and feelings are expressed in Polish in the best way.
Unfortunately, it is me who has to learn foreign language to be
internationally recognized, and not many of you (if you are German or
French, you can also present  your research in your languages) . But the
fact that your languages are in use  is the matter of chance or power. It
has nothing to do with quality of my research.



---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


wt., 4 cze 2019 o 07:22 Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> Dear George,
>
> by using the link I had previously sent
> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
> an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A
> click  adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb"
> proper (displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
> https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
> The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.
>
> The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html
>
> Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the publishers:
> bestellung at uvhw.de
> peter.junkermann at uvhw.de
>
> Hope, it helps!
> Best wishes,
> Walter
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun  4 13:22:55 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 06:22:55 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfRP-boKSxGvt9g+WEjnv9C1c01aCETtH=GfeO6be-1nw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ????????? ????? ????????: ?
???????? ?????? ? ?? ???????? ? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????
Krishna resides in the heart of all men and women. Some have seen him and
others have not, but he always sees them all.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun  4 14:03:47 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 07:03:47 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit rendering of an English poem
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze7_Xj2s_5FXW4TZWGWnN8GnC-TOVVPXFiN6ahZrZ53wQ@mail.gmail.com>

*?Night shall awake to the anthem of the stars?*

*????????* *????* *??????????????* *????????*


*English Poem by R. Y. Deshpande*

*Rendered into Sanskrit by Madhav Deshpande*



Give me the darkmost night

And I will count each star,

On each left of the Right

Witness wonders that are;


???? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ?

??????: ?????????: ??????? ??????????: ??



There is under each height

A pit holding a jewelled jar,

All to marvelling sight

Is depth of the strange far;


?????????????: ???? ????????? ???????????? ?

???????????????????? ????? ??????????? ??



A shadow of the bright

Surges to cross time?s bar,

An adventurous might

Brings fames of the afar;


??????? ??????????? ?????? ????: ???? ?

???????? ??????? ?????????? ????? ??



>From the realm of truth-light

That has no falsehood?s scar

Come the joys of delight

Riding a speedy car.


??????? ???????? ?????????? ???? ? ????: ?

????????? ??????? ????????? ????: ??



Not for nothing was night

And richness comes from far,

Each great with spirit?s light

Preserved hopes to unbar.


? ???????????? ?????????????????? ??????? ?

????????????????????????????? ??????? ?? ??



RY Deshpande

2 June 2019


Sanskrit Rendering by

Madhav Deshpande

June 4, 2019


Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 21:40:16 2019
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 19 17:40:16 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CAAPrgbrh9-SN9wbkAiRod1=cD55ws8EBYdj-zxcMw38fN5Pr+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zvReXXBTXKc4TuBc+SZ+4ykEKK5=qNq2gfn7nmNxrTwiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Joanna,

I am a native speaker of American English and I can assure you that
your English is clear and competent.  You do not need to apologize.

Best wishes,

George

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 7:56 AM Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> Thank you for this info and the previous ones concerning the Rgvedic
> topic.
>
> I think that it is high time to organize a round-table on the Rgveda at
> which various scholars could meet. I know very well that my work is simply
> ignored by some scholar (for the moment I will not reveal their names,
> although some of you probably know them). To be ignored is even worse than
> to be criticized.
>
> So at such a round-table meeting I would expect a fierce discussion with
> fruitful conclusions which will open new perspectives in our research. No
> exclusive, but inclusive. We, Poles, are good in organizing round-tables
> debates, the fall of communism in the Eastern Europe began with such a
> debate 30 years ago.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joanna
>
> P.S. I am sorry for my mistakes in English. My mother tongue is Polish
> and, although I have made a lot of effort to learn English as well as I
> could,  my thoughts and feelings are expressed in Polish in the best way.
> Unfortunately, it is me who has to learn foreign language to be
> internationally recognized, and not many of you (if you are German or
> French, you can also present  your research in your languages) . But the
> fact that your languages are in use  is the matter of chance or power. It
> has nothing to do with quality of my research.
>
>
>
> ---
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
> wt., 4 cze 2019 o 07:22 Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear George,
>>
>> by using the link I had previously sent
>> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
>> an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A
>> click  adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb"
>> proper (displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
>> https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
>> The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.
>>
>> The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
>> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html
>>
>> Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the
>> publishers:
>> bestellung at uvhw.de
>> peter.junkermann at uvhw.de
>>
>> Hope, it helps!
>> Best wishes,
>> Walter
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 23:08:08 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 01:08:08 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zvReXXBTXKc4TuBc+SZ+4ykEKK5=qNq2gfn7nmNxrTwiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zF85h+QNL9OaE1JHrggfarfKx8f5Y=9ztu4xC2n7LfbZg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Joanna,

"To be ignored is even worse than to be criticized." Hear, hear!
Already an admirer of your work, I now start liking you even better.
Count me in for your "fierce discussion with fruitful conclusions
which will open new perspectives in our research. No exclusive, but
inclusive."

So long,

Koenraad ELST

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 11:41 PM George Thompson via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Joanna,
>
> I am a native speaker of American English and I can assure you that your English is clear and competent.  You do not need to apologize.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 7:56 AM Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Thank you for this info and the previous ones concerning the Rgvedic topic.
>>
>> I think that it is high time to organize a round-table on the Rgveda at which various scholars could meet. I know very well that my work is simply ignored by some scholar (for the moment I will not reveal their names, although some of you probably know them). To be ignored is even worse than to be criticized.
>>
>> So at such a round-table meeting I would expect a fierce discussion with fruitful conclusions which will open new perspectives in our research. No exclusive, but inclusive. We, Poles, are good in organizing round-tables debates, the fall of communism in the Eastern Europe began with such a debate 30 years ago.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Joanna
>>
>> P.S. I am sorry for my mistakes in English. My mother tongue is Polish and, although I have made a lot of effort to learn English as well as I could,  my thoughts and feelings are expressed in Polish in the best way. Unfortunately, it is me who has to learn foreign language to be internationally recognized, and not many of you (if you are German or French, you can also present  your research in your languages) . But the fact that your languages are in use  is the matter of chance or power. It has nothing to do with quality of my research.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
>> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
>> 00-927 Warszawa
>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>
>>
>> wt., 4 cze 2019 o 07:22 Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):
>>>
>>> Dear George,
>>>
>>> by using the link I had previously sent
>>> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
>>> an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A click  adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb" proper (displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
>>> https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
>>> The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.
>>>
>>> The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
>>> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html
>>>
>>> Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the publishers:
>>> bestellung at uvhw.de
>>> peter.junkermann at uvhw.de
>>>
>>> Hope, it helps!
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Walter
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org  Wed Jun  5 05:44:25 2019
From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 11:14:25 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_book_jointly_published_by_the_Ecole_fran=C3=A7aise_d=E2=80=99Extr=C3=AAme-Orient_and_the_Institut_Fran=C3=A7ais_de_Pondich=C3=A9ry?=
In-Reply-To: <7f10df18-bd0c-943d-7fd8-23ec6b2d6be5@ifpindia.org>
Message-ID: <9fd84fe9-b2af-59e6-67d4-944f1fdef9e4@ifpindia.org>

*JUST RELEASED*
**
*/Tiruma?kai ??v?r?s Five Shorter Works: Experiments in Literature./*
annotated translation with glossaries *Lynn Ate*, Collection Indologie 
n? 140; NETamil Series n?4, Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient? / Institut 
Fran?ais de Pondich?ry, 2019, ix, 433 p.
Language: English, Tamil. *900 Rs (38 ?). *?ISBN: 978-81-8470-231-6 
(IFP) / 978-2-85539-235-6 (EFEO)

*About the book*

This book is a study of the five shorter works of Tiruma?kai ??v?r, an 
eighth-century Tamil poet who had retired from a military career in 
South India to pursue his interest in literature. For each work, the 
book provides the original Tamil in metric feet, transliteration 
indicating word boundaries, and an English translation as true to the 
original Tamil as possible, with numerous notations on grammar and 
textual highlights. The introduction treats the poet?s interest in 
developing his literary skills by emulating a variety of poetic devices, 
techniques, structures, and strategies of earlier Tamil texts. The 
material covers developments in Tamil prosody, a unique poetic scheme, 
and adaptation of several Tamil literary motifs. The book also includes 
an analytical glossary, as well as appendices highlighting the status of 
some Middle Tamil grammatical forms. The first appendix provides 
uninterrupted translations of the five works in an English style that 
attempts to approach the voice and tenor of the ??v?r, while an appendix 
on prosody discusses a previously undocumented adaptation of a Tamil 
metrical unit.

*About the author*

*Lynn Ate* is an Adjunct Faculty member in the Asia Program of 
Washington State University, having completed a PhD in South Asian 
Language and Literature at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (1978). 
Her previous publications include /Ya?od??s Songs to Her Playful son, 
K???a: Periy??v?r?s 9^th century Tamil /Tirumo?i (Woodland Hills: SASA 
Books, 2011).

--------------------------------

*Institut Fran?ais de Pondich?ry *
P. B. 33, 11, St. Louis Street, Pondicherry-605001, INDIA
Ph: +91-413-2231660 / 661
E-mail: _library at ifpindia.org <mailto:library at ifpindia.org>_
Website: http://www.ifpindia.org/bookstore-list

*Ecole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient *
P.O. Box 151,16 & 19, Dumas Street
Pondicherry - 605001,INDIA
Ph: +91-413-2334539
E-mail: shanti at efeo-pondicherry.org <mailto:shanti at efeo-pondicherry.org>



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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed Jun  5 06:47:24 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 06:47:24 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <CAAPrgbrh9-SN9wbkAiRod1=cD55ws8EBYdj-zxcMw38fN5Pr+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5802608D-7711-4DE3-8E87-48C2D009D9E9@uclouvain.be>

Is the programme of the 7th International Vedic Workshop to be held in Dubrovnik in this coming August (19-24), already available? There was an invitation for proposals of round-tables.
Best wishes,
Christophe

Le 4 juin 2019 ? 13:56, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Dear All,

Thank you for this info and the previous ones concerning the Rgvedic topic.

I think that it is high time to organize a round-table on the Rgveda at which various scholars could meet. I know very well that my work is simply ignored by some scholar (for the moment I will not reveal their names, although some of you probably know them). To be ignored is even worse than to be criticized.

So at such a round-table meeting I would expect a fierce discussion with fruitful conclusions which will open new perspectives in our research. No exclusive, but inclusive. We, Poles, are good in organizing round-tables debates, the fall of communism in the Eastern Europe began with such a debate 30 years ago.

Regards,

Joanna

P.S. I am sorry for my mistakes in English. My mother tongue is Polish and, although I have made a lot of effort to learn English as well as I could,  my thoughts and feelings are expressed in Polish in the best way. Unfortunately, it is me who has to learn foreign language to be internationally recognized, and not many of you (if you are German or French, you can also present  your research in your languages) . But the fact that your languages are in use  is the matter of chance or power. It has nothing to do with quality of my research.



---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


wt., 4 cze 2019 o 07:22 Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> napisa?(a):
Dear George,

by using the link I had previously sent
https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A click  adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb" proper (displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.

The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html

Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the publishers:
bestellung at uvhw.de<mailto:bestellung at uvhw.de>
peter.junkermann at uvhw.de<mailto:peter.junkermann at uvhw.de>

Hope, it helps!
Best wishes,
Walter
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jun  5 13:30:17 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 06:30:17 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdjDbinJVowq0OsE4pYQgR+MVCnx-qsHDAaL4XhnHYXJw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????????? ?????? ?
?? ? ?????: ???????: ??????????? ??? ???????
That ever-delightful Krishna always envelops with compassion those who see
him everywhere and see everything in him.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 19:00:34 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 13:00:34 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] translating optative and indicative
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdrbQHdYWVD1Nx2AnCRzAkitARw+m2zrz-oh33+t9AquQ@mail.gmail.com>

The optative, bhavet, sy?t, etc. should often be translated in modern
English in an indicative sense.  Is there some formal grammatical
documentation for this somewhere?

Related, modern speakers of Indian English often use an
optative/subjunctive/conditional "would" where a native British speaker
would use a more direct indicative "is".

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Jun  5 19:04:37 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 19:04:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] translating optative and indicative
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CdrbQHdYWVD1Nx2AnCRzAkitARw+m2zrz-oh33+t9AquQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR11MB1787DADD0C2D509F6BDF5123A1160@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

might be...


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 2:00:34 PM
To: Indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] translating optative and indicative

The optative, bhavet, sy?t, etc. should often be translated in modern English in an indicative sense.  Is there some formal grammatical documentation for this somewhere?

Related, modern speakers of Indian English often use an optative/subjunctive/conditional "would" where a native British speaker would use a more direct indicative "is".

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca<http://sas.ualberta.ca/>



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From amitc at hawaii.edu  Wed Jun  5 21:21:57 2019
From: amitc at hawaii.edu (Amit Chaturvedi)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 17:21:57 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_E-Copy_of_Sthiramati's_Madhy=C4=81ntavibh=C4=81ga=E1=B9=AD=C4=ABk=C4=81?=
Message-ID: <CAGRDavS72LDPMsqCYuuB1VHFFuuAaB=-Zv9W2mpVxjzptvQtCw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Indology Listmembers,

I was wondering whether anyone could pass along a pdf copy of Yamaguchi's
1934 edition of Sthiramati's *Madhy?ntavibh?ga??k?*. Also, I would be
curious as to whether anyone has general thoughts about the reliability of
the emendations suggested in Stanley's 1988 dissertation (
https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/12988).

With gratitude,
Amit


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 21:48:42 2019
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 19 15:48:42 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09E-Copy_of_Sthiramati's_Madhy=C4=81ntavibh=C4=81ga=E1=B9=AD=C4=ABk=C4=81?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGRDavS72LDPMsqCYuuB1VHFFuuAaB=-Zv9W2mpVxjzptvQtCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekapr6p8EHM=x4w-UCUjZHWZcPoJ-vBz10sE8AP4YVAo1g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Amit,

I have a rather poor quality scan of Yamaguchi's 1934 edition of
Sthiramati's *Madhy?ntavibh?ga??k?* that was kindly given to me. I can send
it to you if no one has a better one. It is about 88 megabytes.

Regarding Richard Stanley's emendations, my impression is that they are
generally quite reliable. We recall that Yamaguchi did not have the
advantage of access to the Sanskrit text of the *Madhy?ntavibh?ga* or the
*Madhy?ntavibh?gabh??ya*, both of which were not published until 1964. This
is the major factor. Besides this, many more Sanskrit Buddhist texts were
published in the interim, and Richard Stanley worked closely with J. W. de
Jong and Tissa Rajapatirana on this text.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.



On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 3:23 PM Amit Chaturvedi via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Indology Listmembers,
>
> I was wondering whether anyone could pass along a pdf copy of Yamaguchi's
> 1934 edition of Sthiramati's *Madhy?ntavibh?ga??k?*. Also, I would be
> curious as to whether anyone has general thoughts about the reliability of
> the emendations suggested in Stanley's 1988 dissertation (
> https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/12988).
>
> With gratitude,
> Amit
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Thu Jun  6 04:15:40 2019
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 04:15:40 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <5802608D-7711-4DE3-8E87-48C2D009D9E9@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <34F5779B-488A-46CC-BF4E-2A3F7CC9F796@wlu.edu>

Dear Joanna,

A good way to bring a diverse range of scholars together is to advertise meetings early and widely.  Christophe?s response is the first that I have heard about a 7th International Vedic Workshop this summer.  I does not seem to have been announced on this list, so the circular must have gone to a narrower group (perhaps just those who happened to be able to attend the 6th IVW)?

Best,
Tim

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949



From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Reply-To: Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>
Date: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 12:18 PM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]

Is the programme of the 7th International Vedic Workshop to be held in Dubrovnik in this coming August (19-24), already available? There was an invitation for proposals of round-tables.
Best wishes,
Christophe

Le 4 juin 2019 ? 13:56, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Dear All,

Thank you for this info and the previous ones concerning the Rgvedic topic.

I think that it is high time to organize a round-table on the Rgveda at which various scholars could meet. I know very well that my work is simply ignored by some scholar (for the moment I will not reveal their names, although some of you probably know them). To be ignored is even worse than to be criticized.

So at such a round-table meeting I would expect a fierce discussion with fruitful conclusions which will open new perspectives in our research. No exclusive, but inclusive. We, Poles, are good in organizing round-tables debates, the fall of communism in the Eastern Europe began with such a debate 30 years ago.

Regards,

Joanna

P.S. I am sorry for my mistakes in English. My mother tongue is Polish and, although I have made a lot of effort to learn English as well as I could,  my thoughts and feelings are expressed in Polish in the best way. Unfortunately, it is me who has to learn foreign language to be internationally recognized, and not many of you (if you are German or French, you can also present  your research in your languages) . But the fact that your languages are in use  is the matter of chance or power. It has nothing to do with quality of my research.



---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


wt., 4 cze 2019 o 07:22 Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> napisa?(a):
Dear George,

by using the link I had previously sent
https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A click  adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb" proper (displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.

The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html

Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the publishers:
bestellung at uvhw.de<mailto:bestellung at uvhw.de>
peter.junkermann at uvhw.de<mailto:peter.junkermann at uvhw.de>

Hope, it helps!
Best wishes,
Walter
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 08:09:05 2019
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 10:09:05 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Searching_LeCoq_Sp=C3=A4tantike_vol._4?=
Message-ID: <273d7697-72b1-1d3f-3893-765be188250f@gmail.com>

Dear Listmembers,

on archive.org I found all volumes of LeCoq's /Sp?tantike/, but vol. 4 
is missing.

Anyone can share with me a pdf of this volume 4?

LeCoq, /Die Buddhistische Sp?tantike in Mittelasien/, 4. Teil (1924/25?).

There is no more copyright.

You can also send easy with /wetransfer.com/, if there are any problems 
with your email-account regarding the size of attached pdfs.

Best regards

Heiner

-- 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 10:46:14 2019
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 12:46:14 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Premi=C3=A8re_Journ=C3=A9e_d=E2=80=99=C3=A9tudes_v=C3=A9diques_et_p=C4=81=E1=B9=87in=C3=A9ennes_--_Paris,_12_juin_2019_--_Day_of_Vedic_and_P=C4=81=E1=B9=87inian_studies?=
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAD4eu+iNUNJtxN2uUoiGXNFEeLHVaaGn+9tvPB4vPewA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Listmembers,
Although Vedic studies and P??inian studies can be very well practiced
independently, we know from the work of Thieme, Renou, Palsule, Cardona,
Deshpande, Bronkhorst ... that there is a potential plus-value to combining
the two.
I am therefore happy to announce the
*    Premi?re Journ?e d??tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes*
that will take place in Paris on 12 juin 2019.
Organizers: Silvia D'Intino and Jan Houben
For further details see:
https://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/evenements-scientifiques/colloques-et-conferences-2019/etudes-vediques-et-p%C4%81%E1%B9%87ineennes.html?lang=fr

For the program see:
https://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/IMG/pdf/Programme_JEVP-12-06-2019.pdf
Hopefully next time we will be able to announce this day longer in
advance...
With best regards,
Jan Houben

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jun  6 13:30:55 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 06:30:55 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcva5grjcrKcvET=yZwEeUq3-G3o0V6uDZeaY0DHbLOuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?? ? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?
??????? ?????????: ??????????? ??? ???????
Krishna, the ocean of compassion, constantly envelops with his compassion
even those who do not see him always standing nearby.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 17:44:32 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 23:14:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] National work shop on Yasholata
Message-ID: <CAODNnZhry4q2qdw+Kx=kX9jd5Uv=k2yAarJzWe=BTjQ-ayGZ9w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all
Please find the details of the seminar, Participate and welcome the new
commentary written on Gudhartha Tattvaloka Jagadisi Vyapti Pancaka
details on youtube
https://youtu.be/zfujovekc98

[image: image.png]


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 17:49:20 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 23:19:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] National work shop on Yasholata
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZhry4q2qdw+Kx=kX9jd5Uv=k2yAarJzWe=BTjQ-ayGZ9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZiW2gdBNMh7PaRru5GyxF9Bu4G1Sg1V=FpoGEVQxBqZug@mail.gmail.com>

Please use this number +9182003 93403 to contact

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 11:14 PM Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear all
> Please find the details of the seminar, Participate and welcome the new
> commentary written on Gudhartha Tattvaloka Jagadisi Vyapti Pancaka
> details on youtube
> https://youtu.be/zfujovekc98
>
> [image: image.png]
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 00:57:03 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 18:57:03 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question: How is Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities?
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce1pj7RSVzunvU6t0a5K6cnAe93WF5rT43RCt5J2Cu1NA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 05:01, john mellman <jamellman2 at gmail.com> sent the
following query to the INDOLOGY committee for distribution.

If you wish to answer, kindly CC Mr Mellman, <jamellman2 at gmail.com>, since
he is not at present a list member.



> An immediate question is searching the Indology archives for *how
> Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities*.  (Can you help on this?  I
> was able to see posts from 2007 but couldn?t get consecutive ones going
> forward to 2019).
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 01:00:33 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 19 19:00:33 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question: How is Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Ce1pj7RSVzunvU6t0a5K6cnAe93WF5rT43RCt5J2Cu1NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeNNkXaWTDfOnp4f8NF4+_QZ+0K5BkHvRY54SLceSTr1w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mr Mellman,

Here at the U. of Alberta we currently run two courses: Introduction to
Sanskrit I, and Introduction to Sanskrit II.  These are each one-semester
courses (13 weeks, 3 or 4 one-hour meetings per week).  We use the
book Cambridge
Introduction to Sanskrit <http://cambridge-sanskrit.org/> and related
online materials by Antonia Ruppel. Sanskrit I covers about half of
Ruppel's book, 20 chapters.

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 18:57, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 05:01, john mellman <jamellman2 at gmail.com> sent the
> following query to the INDOLOGY committee for distribution.
>
> If you wish to answer, kindly CC Mr Mellman, <jamellman2 at gmail.com>,
> since he is not at present a list member.
>
>
>
>> An immediate question is searching the Indology archives for *how
>> Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities*.  (Can you help on this?  I
>> was able to see posts from 2007 but couldn?t get consecutive ones going
>> forward to 2019).
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> John
>>
>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Fri Jun  7 07:05:51 2019
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 19 07:05:51 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question: How is Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeNNkXaWTDfOnp4f8NF4+_QZ+0K5BkHvRY54SLceSTr1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549BF74B5@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

There is the following story about Gonda and his student van Buitenen. When van Buitenen, as a prospective student of Sanskrit, asked Gonda about the study program(me), Gonda advised him to have a look at the grammar himself. Van Buitenen returned the same afternoon, saying he had finished the grammar, after which they started reading Sanskrit texts. It is one of the many stories Bodewitz used to tell us students about Gonda.

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 juni 2019 3:00
Aan: Indology; john mellman
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Question: How is Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities?


Dear Mr Mellman,

Here at the U. of Alberta we currently run two courses: Introduction to Sanskrit I, and Introduction to Sanskrit II.  These are each one-semester courses (13 weeks, 3 or 4 one-hour meetings per week).  We use the book Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit<http://cambridge-sanskrit.org/> and related online materials by Antonia Ruppel. Sanskrit I covers about half of Ruppel's book, 20 chapters.

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca<http://sas.ualberta.ca/>



On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 18:57, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 05:01, john mellman <jamellman2 at gmail.com<mailto:jamellman2 at gmail.com>> sent the following query to the INDOLOGY committee for distribution.

If you wish to answer, kindly CC Mr Mellman, <jamellman2 at gmail.com<mailto:jamellman2 at gmail.com>>, since he is not at present a list member.



An immediate question is searching the Indology archives for how Sanskrit is taught at Western Universities.  (Can you help on this?  I was able to see posts from 2007 but couldn?t get consecutive ones going forward to 2019).

Thanks

John


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun  7 13:10:04 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 19 06:10:04 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeHOCjGkhLPX5aET1NVg30hfZDL_2SaNafHOcKz0MCanw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?????: ??????????? ????? ???? ?? ??????????: ?
??????? ?????? ? ???????: ??????????? ??? ???????

Krishna created them all, the wise and the ignorant. Watching over them
all, he always covers them with his compassion.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  7 15:42:22 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 19 21:12:22 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIXgpK3gpL/gpKfgpL7gpKjgpJrgpL/gpKjgpY3gpKTgpL7gpK7gpKPgpL/gpKrgpLDgpL/gpLbgpL/gpLfgpY3gpJ8gYW5kIOCkheCkreCkv+Ckp+CkvuCkqOCkmuCkv+CkqOCljeCkpOCkvuCkruCko+Ckv+CktuCkv+CksuCli+CknuCljeCkmyBkaWdpdGl6ZWQ=?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVw4PhpH=j0Vp4c1q+RA+f40u2FwPAGOvEjS5ECRK_u4g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Scholars,

These two lexica are available in digitized format for researchers and
scholars.

1. ??????????????????????? of ?????????
(Abhidh?nachint?ma?ipari?i??a of Hemachandra)

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/abhidhanachintamaniparishishta_hemachandra/orig/abhidhanachintamaniparishishta.txt

and

?????????????????????? of ?????? ????????
(Abhidh?nachint?ma?i?ilo?chha of Jinadeva Mun??vara)

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/abhidhanachintamanishiloncha_jinadeva/orig/abhidhanachintamanishiloncha.txt

Latest copy of the file can be downloaded from these web addresses

Your feedback / error reports / help is highly appreciated.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun  8 13:34:48 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 19 06:34:48 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzconLR+UsAcpsTXQCLRxUR8jZJoCS1gpoL4f3nO1=9Hdg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ?????? ? ???????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?
??????? ?????? ???????: ???????? ????? ?????: ???????

All people do not see Krishna who is always nearby, but standing nearby he
always watches over them all.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jun  8 17:57:44 2019
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 19 19:57:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of Contents]
In-Reply-To: <34F5779B-488A-46CC-BF4E-2A3F7CC9F796@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbosL4Uw0-VEa7DB66snxC5SDUbbC_a9yZaBKErpmoGqiA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Antonia, Dear George, Dear Konraad, Dear Christophe, Dear Tim,
Dear All,

It would be great if such a round-table  could happen in Dubrovnik.

It seems that, apart from the traditional and extremely  valuable research,
we can discuss some other approaches to the *Rgveda* and the ancient Indian
texts. I think that we, Indologists,  can propose a lot in humanities in
general, because we "possess" very old  texts and we know how to interpret
them. We only have to find the way of their explanation which goes beyond
our field and is general enough to be accepted by the scholars who pretend
to study human beings, but in fact they study Europeans and Northern
Americans, and, in spite of those limited sources,  they draw conclusions
about man in general which is a typical mistake *pars pro toto *(due to my
mercy, I will not discuss the further possible entailments of such an
attitude...)

And dear George, thank you for your uplifting opinion about my English. I
try to do my best, but I still feel constrained by the language which is so
different from my mother tongue.

Best,

Joanna


---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


czw., 6 cze 2019 o 06:15 Lubin, Tim <LubinT at wlu.edu> napisa?(a):

> Dear Joanna,
>
>
>
> A good way to bring a diverse range of scholars together is to advertise
> meetings early and widely.  Christophe?s response is the first that I have
> heard about a 7th International Vedic Workshop this summer.  I does not
> seem to have been announced on this list, so the circular must have gone to
> a narrower group (perhaps just those who happened to be able to attend the 6
> th IVW)?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> Timothy Lubin
>
> Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
>
> Chair of the Department of Religion
>
> 204 Tucker Hall
>
> Washington and Lee University
>
> Lexington, Virginia 24450
>
>
>
> https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/
>
> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
>
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Reply-To: *Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 12:18 PM
> *To: *INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] Studies on the Rigveda [Addendum: Table of
> Contents]
>
>
>
> Is the programme of the 7th International Vedic Workshop to be held in
> Dubrovnik in this coming August (19-24), already available? There was an
> invitation for proposals of round-tables.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Christophe
>
>
>
> Le 4 juin 2019 ? 13:56, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
>
>
> Thank you for this info and the previous ones concerning the Rgvedic
> topic.
>
>
>
> I think that it is high time to organize a round-table on the Rgveda at
> which various scholars could meet. I know very well that my work is simply
> ignored by some scholar (for the moment I will not reveal their names,
> although some of you probably know them). To be ignored is even worse than
> to be criticized.
>
>
>
> So at such a round-table meeting I would expect a fierce discussion with
> fruitful conclusions which will open new perspectives in our research. No
> exclusive, but inclusive. We, Poles, are good in organizing round-tables
> debates, the fall of communism in the Eastern Europe began with such a
> debate 30 years ago.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Joanna
>
>
>
> P.S. I am sorry for my mistakes in English. My mother tongue is Polish
> and, although I have made a lot of effort to learn English as well as I
> could,  my thoughts and feelings are expressed in Polish in the best way.
> Unfortunately, it is me who has to learn foreign language to be
> internationally recognized, and not many of you (if you are German or
> French, you can also present  your research in your languages) . But the
> fact that your languages are in use  is the matter of chance or power. It
> has nothing to do with quality of my research.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
>
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
>
> 00-927 Warszawa
>
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
>
>
>
> wt., 4 cze 2019 o 07:22 Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):
>
> Dear George,
>
>
>
> by using the link I had previously sent
>
> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica/product/190225_08-193-9.html
>
> an add-to-cart button ("In den Warenkorb") will show, bottom left. A
> click  adds the ordered copy to the cart. As a next step, go to "Warenkorb"
> proper (displayed in white letters in the black bar above):
>
> https://uvhw.de/warenkorb.html
>
> The rest will be self-explanatory, I believe.
>
>
>
> The same ordering process holds good for all the volumes in this series:
>
> https://uvhw.de/studia-indologica.html
>
>
>
> Optionally, one can always also send a simple order mail to the publishers:
>
> bestellung at uvhw.de
> peter.junkermann at uvhw.de
>
>
>
> Hope, it helps!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Walter
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun  9 13:30:31 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 19 06:30:31 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdHNwFa1fzoiX0aDJ7ph5oOg-OLbXB0ccMHFb34Lbg5Bg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ?????? ???? ?????????????????????: ?
??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????

Blessed are the woods of mind where the blossoming modulations rejoice with
Krishna, like the cowgirls in Gokula.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sun Jun  9 18:54:18 2019
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 19 08:54:18 -1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_article_request:_Schmidt,_H.P._Notes_on_=E1=B9=9Agveda_7.18.5-10.?=
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEU+cAf2Gt9E84eUfYBjDt7aN-H3nTrpSBaNzkpgVXdoKg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends, I hope you're all having a nice summer. Would someone have a
soft copy of the following?:

Schmidt, H.P. "Notes on ?gveda 7.18.5-10." *Indica, Organ of the Heras
Institute of Indian History and Culture (Bombay)* 17, 1980, 41-47

??????, J




------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature
Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
461 Spalding


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sun Jun  9 23:53:53 2019
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 19 13:53:53 -1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09article_request:_Schmidt,_H.P._Notes_on_=E1=B9=9Agveda_7.18.5-10.?=
In-Reply-To: <CAAiVBEU+cAf2Gt9E84eUfYBjDt7aN-H3nTrpSBaNzkpgVXdoKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEVTx+WgFNYEfN6ybGX=1P+LszoXeEF94srJrDkqC5NO-A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to Joel Brereton for sending the article manovegena!

On Sun, Jun 9, 2019, 8:54 AM Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu> wrote:

> Dear Friends, I hope you're all having a nice summer. Would someone have a
> soft copy of the following?:
>
> Schmidt, H.P. "Notes on ?gveda 7.18.5-10." *Indica, Organ of the Heras
> Institute of Indian History and Culture (Bombay)* 17, 1980, 41-47
>
> ??????, J
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
> Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature
> Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures
> University of Hawai'i at M?noa
> 461 Spalding
>


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From shankaranair at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 02:56:32 2019
From: shankaranair at gmail.com (Shankar Nair)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 19 22:56:32 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Aikabhavika-nyaya
Message-ID: <CAN5=mo7Y4XcWzUdWW4E80o-25Tm=oLWUth_BDU6L48O80A6S6A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

I hope the early summer is treating you well. I write seeking help with a
reference in Madhus?dana Sarasvat?'s *Ved*?ntakalpalatik*?*. In a
doxographical portion of the text, the author describes one group as
follows:

*Apare tu aikabhavikany?yena ?tmaj??namantare?**?pi** ni?iddhak?myayor
ananu??h?n?t nityanaimittik?nu??h?n?t ca na ?g?mikarmotp?da?**.*
*Vidyam?nasya copabhogena k?ay?t sakalakarmocchedalak?a?am apavargam ?hu?.*

(But others [say], via *aikabhavika-ny**?ya*, as a result of the performance
of the compulsory and occasional [*karmas*] and the non-performance of the
prohibited and voluntary [*karmas*], even without knowledge of *?tman*, there
is no production of future *karma*. They speak of ?release? (*apavarga*) as
characterized by the extirpation of *karma* entirely, due to the exhausting
of present [*karmas*] by means of their enjoyment [in this current birth?].)

I am trying to identify the group Madhus?dana has in mind as well as the
principle/rule of "*aikabhavika*" that he references. The language used in
the passage brings the M?m??sakas quickly to mind; however, the
organization of the treatise would strongly suggest that some Naiy?yika
and/or Vai?e?ika group is at play. I seem to hazily recall that Pra?astap?da
in his *Bh??**ya*, perhaps, records a view along these lines? Yet I would
be surprised to see a [Ny?ya-]Vai?e?ika articulation of *mok?**a* that
gives so small a role to knowledge (cf. "*?tmaj??namantare?**?pi*").

To further complicate the identification, I wonder if *aikabhavika* might
in some way be connected with the well-known discussions of *ekabhavika* rooted
in Yoga-Bh??ya 2.13? I am inclined to read *ekabhavika* in that context as
referring to a type of *karma* that bears fruit in a single subsequent
lifetime,
whereas I read Madhus?dana's *aikabhavika* here to refer to *karma* that
bears fruit and becomes exhausted within the very same lifetime, i.e.,
prior to death. I could certainly be mistaken, however, as I have seen "
*aikbhavika*" in the Brahma-S?tra commentarial literature (3,1.2.8) -- by
Madhus?dana's fellow Advaitins -- in the former sense of *karma* that bears
fruit in the immediately subsequent birth.

I am open to all of your learned suggestions! If it helps at all, Madhus?dana
later casts this viewpoint aside with disdain, calling it so unfounded that
to bother to refute it would only bring shame upon the refuter.

With many thanks for your insights,

Shankar Nair

Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies and
Middle Eastern & South Asian Languages & Cultures
University of Virginia


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From danbalogh at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 10:52:06 2019
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A1niel_Balogh?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 19 12:52:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <CAN5=mo7Y4XcWzUdWW4E80o-25Tm=oLWUth_BDU6L48O80A6S6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM0n-bVOuxDv+FncH8K2R6bF++hTcY9mSFN-ogt_T96CPn95ww@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,
I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were involved
in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be very happy
to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic issues and
at the moment one particular question.
The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web
and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us
from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard.
Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we
deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may
be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic
transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of
generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present,
and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special
cases to it?
The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says
that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1).
Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to
transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by
special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma
sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already
codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we
feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively
similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to
the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol
for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct
consonants created with such a sign.]
We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can see
it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic
transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly)
differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these
are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a
verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial
consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but
with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where
partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a
legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is
desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is
not a full vowel ak?ara).
Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies for
going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
Daniel


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From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu  Mon Jun 10 12:17:28 2019
From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 19 12:17:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Aikabhavika-nyaya
In-Reply-To: <CAN5=mo7Y4XcWzUdWW4E80o-25Tm=oLWUth_BDU6L48O80A6S6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN7PR08MB5506999DA3B931146518E8E8E7130@BN7PR08MB5506.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Shankar,

Look at Venkatramiah?s introduction to his translation of Parthasarati Mishra?s Sastra-dipika, pp. xxiv-xxv. The doctrine seems explicitly Mimamsa (or perhaps an imagined fix of one of their accounts of liberation), the claim being that samcita-karma in total is responsible for embodiment and can be eradicated in total (perhaps a reply to Sankara?s claim that samcita being accumulated without beginning, it could never be exhausted by living through it).

Best,
Aleksandar

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Shankar Nair via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2019 10:56:32 PM
To: indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Aikabhavika-nyaya

Dear all,

I hope the early summer is treating you well. I write seeking help with a reference in Madhus?dana Sarasvat?'s Ved?ntakalpalatik?. In a doxographical portion of the text, the author describes one group as follows:

Apare tu aikabhavikany?yena ?tmaj??namantare??pi ni?iddhak?myayor ananu??h?n?t nityanaimittik?nu??h?n?t ca na ?g?mikarmotp?da?.
Vidyam?nasya copabhogena k?ay?t sakalakarmocchedalak?a?am apavargam ?hu?.

(But others [say], via aikabhavika-ny?ya, as a result of the performance of the compulsory and occasional [karmas] and the non-performance of the prohibited and voluntary [karmas], even without knowledge of ?tman, there is no production of future karma. They speak of ?release? (apavarga) as characterized by the extirpation of karma entirely, due to the exhausting of present [karmas] by means of their enjoyment [in this current birth?].)

I am trying to identify the group Madhus?dana has in mind as well as the principle/rule of "aikabhavika" that he references. The language used in the passage brings the M?m??sakas quickly to mind; however, the organization of the treatise would strongly suggest that some Naiy?yika and/or Vai?e?ika group is at play. I seem to hazily recall that Pra?astap?da in his Bh??ya, perhaps, records a view along these lines? Yet I would be surprised to see a [Ny?ya-]Vai?e?ika articulation of mok?a that gives so small a role to knowledge (cf. "?tmaj??namantare??pi").

To further complicate the identification, I wonder if aikabhavika might in some way be connected with the well-known discussions of ekabhavika rooted in Yoga-Bh??ya 2.13? I am inclined to read ekabhavika in that context as referring to a type of karma that bears fruit in a single subsequent lifetime, whereas I read Madhus?dana's aikabhavika here to refer to karma that bears fruit and becomes exhausted within the very same lifetime, i.e., prior to death. I could certainly be mistaken, however, as I have seen "aikbhavika" in the Brahma-S?tra commentarial literature (3,1.2.8) -- by Madhus?dana's fellow Advaitins -- in the former sense of karma that bears fruit in the immediately subsequent birth.

I am open to all of your learned suggestions! If it helps at all, Madhus?dana later casts this viewpoint aside with disdain, calling it so unfounded that to bother to refute it would only bring shame upon the refuter.

With many thanks for your insights,

Shankar Nair

Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies and
Middle Eastern & South Asian Languages & Cultures
University of Virginia


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jun 10 13:41:28 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 19 06:41:28 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeJyVLkYtAKLaiohsZf=c9KtF-jFSg6wS+8r+NwcoPQpA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????????? ??? ????????????? ????? ???????? ?
?????? ?????????????? ???????? ????? ???? ???????

O Krishna, may the modulations of my mind have the same unceasing love for
you that the cowgirls have for you.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Mon Jun 10 13:57:43 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 19 19:27:43 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Completion of Nirnaya sagara Bombay Fonts (2 versions)
Message-ID: <CAODNnZgHXUEpgQtWytFshJ9-HnjhRT7dHKMJV0nSEYvv8mTPjg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all
Please find the attached pdf, of the sample of Nirnay Sagar fonts with 2
versions (the only variation is, changed according to the digital
requirements and thickness)

Regards
KP


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From shankaranair at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 00:12:48 2019
From: shankaranair at gmail.com (Shankar Nair)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 19 20:12:48 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Aikabhavika-nyaya
In-Reply-To: <BN7PR08MB5506999DA3B931146518E8E8E7130@BN7PR08MB5506.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAN5=mo5NeDNcqK0WgzOL7psE+TEoqtJM9kHMiyAzb-pzjeSuUA@mail.gmail.com>

My thanks to Prof. Uskokov for providing this very helpful information.

Best wishes,
Shankar


Shankar Nair

Assistant Professor
Department of Religious Studies and
Middle Eastern & South Asian Languages & Cultures
University of Virginia

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 8:17 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar <
aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote:

> Dear Shankar,
>
> Look at Venkatramiah?s introduction to his translation of Parthasarati
> Mishra?s Sastra-dipika, pp. xxiv-xxv. The doctrine seems explicitly Mimamsa
> (or perhaps an imagined fix of one of their accounts of liberation), the
> claim being that samcita-karma in total is responsible for embodiment and
> can be eradicated in total (perhaps a reply to Sankara?s claim that samcita
> being accumulated without beginning, it could never be exhausted by living
> through it).
>
> Best,
> Aleksandar
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Shankar Nair via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 9, 2019 10:56:32 PM
> *To:* indology
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Aikabhavika-nyaya
>
> Dear all,
>
> I hope the early summer is treating you well. I write seeking help with a
> reference in Madhus?dana Sarasvat?'s *Ved*?ntakalpalatik*?*. In a
> doxographical portion of the text, the author describes one group as
> follows:
>
> *Apare tu aikabhavikany?yena ?tmaj??namantare?**?pi** ni?iddhak?myayor
> ananu??h?n?t nityanaimittik?nu??h?n?t ca na ?g?mikarmotp?da?**.*
> *Vidyam?nasya copabhogena k?ay?t sakalakarmocchedalak?a?am apavargam ?hu?.*
>
> (But others [say], via *aikabhavika-ny**?ya*, as a result of the performance
> of the compulsory and occasional [*karmas*] and the non-performance of
> the prohibited and voluntary [*karmas*], even without knowledge of *?tman*
> , there is no production of future *karma*. They speak of ?release? (
> *apavarga*) as characterized by the extirpation of *karma* entirely, due
> to the exhausting of present [*karmas*] by means of their enjoyment [in
> this current birth?].)
>
> I am trying to identify the group Madhus?dana has in mind as well as the
> principle/rule of "*aikabhavika*" that he references. The language used
> in the passage brings the M?m??sakas quickly to mind; however, the
> organization of the treatise would strongly suggest that some Naiy?yika
> and/or Vai?e?ika group is at play. I seem to hazily recall that Pra?astap?da
> in his *Bh??**ya*, perhaps, records a view along these lines? Yet I would
> be surprised to see a [Ny?ya-]Vai?e?ika articulation of *mok?**a* that
> gives so small a role to knowledge (cf. "*?tmaj??namantare?**?pi*").
>
> To further complicate the identification, I wonder if *aikabhavika* might
> in some way be connected with the well-known discussions of *ekabhavika* rooted
> in Yoga-Bh??ya 2.13? I am inclined to read *ekabhavika* in that context
> as referring to a type of *karma* that bears fruit in a single subsequent lifetime,
> whereas I read Madhus?dana's *aikabhavika* here to refer to *karma* that
> bears fruit and becomes exhausted within the very same lifetime, i.e.,
> prior to death. I could certainly be mistaken, however, as I have seen "
> *aikbhavika*" in the Brahma-S?tra commentarial literature (3,1.2.8) -- by
> Madhus?dana's fellow Advaitins -- in the former sense of *karma* that
> bears fruit in the immediately subsequent birth.
>
> I am open to all of your learned suggestions! If it helps at all, Madhus?dana
> later casts this viewpoint aside with disdain, calling it so unfounded that
> to bother to refute it would only bring shame upon the refuter.
>
> With many thanks for your insights,
>
> Shankar Nair
>
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Religious Studies and
> Middle Eastern & South Asian Languages & Cultures
> University of Virginia
>
>


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From l.den.boer.1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 07:09:26 2019
From: l.den.boer.1 at gmail.com (Lucas den Boer)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 19 09:09:26 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for papers: Ancient Buddhist Meditation (Groningen)
Message-ID: <CAOaEe9Q0afsAq26BJaqZ_xA-a-QY_yWoO5+Vhy_P2u3n3oHiHw@mail.gmail.com>

Symposium

*Ancient Buddhist Meditation:*

*Historical, Philosophical and Comparative Perspectives*



*6 November 2019*

Faculty of Philosophy, room OMEGA

Oude Boteringestraat 52, 9717 GL

Groningen



*Keynote Speaker:*

*Prof. Rupert Gethin (Bristol)*





*Description*


Meditation practices are a core component of ancient Indian Buddhism and an
essential factor in the development of Buddhist philosophy as a whole.
Ancient Buddhist meditation is naturally intertwined with key philosophical
topics such as the nature of consciousness and qualia, the phenomenology of
subjective experience, the nature of emotions, the self, causality, free
will and the meaning of life. Today, scholars in cognitive psychology and
neurosciences are actively engaged in exploring meditation practices as a
promising field for raising new questions and develop new approaches about
the nature of the mind-body relationship. At the same time, historians of
Western philosophy and philosophers of religion begin to reappraise the
importance of meditative traditions in the West and their impact on the
shaping of philosophical debates of the past. This symposium focuses on
ancient Indian Buddhist meditation practices as an interdisciplinary topic
to bring together historical, philosophical and scientific research on the
historical and conceptual implications of Buddhist meditation and its
potential for comparative and global philosophy.



*Call for papers*

We welcome abstracts for talks related to the theme of the symposium.
Please submit abstracts (400 words max.) suitable for anonymous review in
PDF to a.sangiacomo at rug.nl



*Deadline: 1 September 2019* (before midnight).

Decisions will follow by September 10.


Attendance is free and all are welcome, especially students.

No financial assistance can be provided to support travel expenses and
accommodation.



Please register here <https://forms.gle/5ZW3SKvchtH6yRkx5>.

For information please contact: a.sangiacomo at rug.nl ? for updates, please
visit the website
<https://www.rug.nl/filosofie/organization/news-and-events/news/events/ancient-buddhist-meditation-symposium>
.


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 11 07:52:28 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 19 13:22:28 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKjgpL7gpKjgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpYvgpKbgpK/gpLjgpL7gpJfgpLDgpJXgpYvgpLfgpIMgb2Yg4KS24KWN4KSw4KWAIOCkmOCkvuCkuOClgOCksuCkvuCksuCknOClgCDgpK7gpLngpL7gpLDgpL7gpJw=?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzWq4tZOP6MHveEbtqboixWtEcF=K2zsRbDpb778_-DkoA@mail.gmail.com>

?????????????????? of ???? ????????? ??????
(N?n?rthodayas?garako?a of ?rI Gh?s?l?laj? Mah?r?ja)

This dictionary is digitized and is available at
https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/nanarthodayasagara_ghasilal/orig/nanarthodayasagara.txt
.

Details of publication and credits are in the metadata section.

Any feedback / correction / help is appreciated.

Best wishes,

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 11 13:21:25 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 19 06:21:25 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfPCs_AtR-HWz5NoCGeP+HzZNeOeQW6kZqLz-rNrr8SZg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

??????? ?? ????????? ??? ?? ???????????: ?
??????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ???????? ???????

The modulations of my mind are dancing with Krishna. How can I restrain
those cowgirls drenched in joy?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jun 12 13:13:05 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 19 06:13:05 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcPZ8WuHOSrUFZwRbsTL2vtSqQSnk_S06GocoewwPZETg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?? ????????????? ?? ???????? ?????? ??? ?
?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ???????

What is restraining or not restraining, when the mind is attached to
Krishna? When it is stolen by him, how and what am I to restrain, please
tell me?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 17:04:27 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 19 22:34:27 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLbgpKzgpY3gpKbgpLDgpKTgpY3gpKjgpL7gpJXgpLAgb2Yg4KS44KS+4KSn4KWB4KS44KWB4KSo4KWN4KSm4KSw4KSX4KSj4KS/?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzW199CtCTehptuuh6uzbby4JuReqROe8-ngNgjb5MMGAA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,
It gives me immense pleasure to convey to you that the following lexical
work is digitized and available to scholars.

??????????? of ?????????????
?abdaratn?kara of S?dhusundaraga?i

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/shabdaratnakara_sadhusundaragani/orig/shabdaratnakara.txt

Credits in metadata section.

Any feedback / suggestions / help is welcome.

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 17:16:10 2019
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 19 19:16:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf upload to archive.org request
Message-ID: <935190D1-9EBB-41D0-89EA-4AB485978024@gmail.com>

Dear colleagues

I came across a reference by Frits Staal to:
Chatterji, Kshitish Chandra (ed. and transl.) (1957), Paspasa to Patanjali's Mahabhasya, Calcutta: A. Mukherjee & Co.

Might someone have a scan of this book they could upload to archive.org, or a pdf they could send?

Several of KC Chatterji?s other works are already on archive.org, but I did not find the book Staal referred to 

Cheers
James Hartzell




From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 12 21:14:10 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 02:44:10 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIXgpKjgpYfgpJXgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpLjgpK7gpYHgpJrgpY3gpJrgpK8gb2Yg4KS24KS+4KS24KWN4KS14KSk?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUp_ae80xK3UtszUPGD+YzKm6cSeSrmHbV99P+S9FHjeg@mail.gmail.com>

Anek?rthasamuchchaya of ???vata is available for download at
https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/anekarthasamuchchaya_shashvata/orig/anekarthasamuchchaya.txt
.
The annotation has started but is incomplete.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 09:46:01 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 15:16:01 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLXgpL/gpLbgpY3gpLXgpKrgpY3gpLDgpJXgpL7gpLYgb2Yg4KSu4KS54KWH4KS24KWN4KS14KSw?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVUKD7PFBBCWcMDdmusWQMJd908zxnDKyQGJ9Zbp8zbFA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
It gives me immense pleasure to bring the following work to the scholarly
world.

Vi?vaprak??a of Mahe?vara

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/vishvaprakasha_maheshvara/orig/vishvaprakasha.txt


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 11:23:13 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 16:53:13 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLngpL7gpLDgpL7gpLXgpLLgpYAgb2Yg4KSq4KWB4KSw4KWB4KS34KWL4KSk4KWN4KSk4KSu4KSm4KWH4KS1?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUEWyi=yQKSJCkB6RubCth6L8t=ihKvy0BBsiArrNZzzA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
It gives me immense pleasure to present this work to scholarly community.
H?r?val? of Puru?ottamadeva

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/haravali_purushottamadeva/orig/haravali.txt

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 12:02:24 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 17:32:24 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKjgpL/gpJjgpKPgpY3gpJ/gpYHgpLbgpYfgpLcgb2Yg4KS54KWH4KSu4KSa4KSo4KWN4KSm4KWN4KSw?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzXERA97mMSE2TVWN+k0P7QkdxRSw_2BGbGwJAHt54AGXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
Please find attached the link to the following book:
Nigha??u?e?a of Hemachandra.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/nighantushesha_hemachandra/orig/nighantushesha.txt

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 12:59:03 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 18:29:03 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKjgpL7gpKjgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpLjgpJngpY3gpJfgpY3gpLDgpLkgb2Yg4KSF4KSc4KSv4KSq4KS+4KSy?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzULet=tKTrmjmUdKV9WCwn0rgAVX8kZh5zu6LWkXa9QjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
Please find attached the digital copy of the following work -
N?n?rthasa?graha of Ajayap?la.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/nanarthasangraha_ajayapala/orig/nanarthasangraha.txt

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 13:12:36 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 18:42:36 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSBXb3JkIOCkquClgeCkt+CljeCkquCkteCkqOCljeCkpOCkgw==?=
Message-ID: <CAODNnZiL4U=RjN5ES2EQR3UAjQYSjUCaNkpRiYb_-jsUOPAaQg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all
I am looking for a word
?????????? (not ?????)from Kosas I searched Vaijayanti and Visvaprakasa but
could not find there. If you find this word in any Kosas kindly inform.
I found this word in the Commentary of Amarakosa that is Sudha on the verse
?????????? and seen usage in VisvaguNadarsa Champu

Yours sincerely
KP


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jun 13 13:16:04 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 06:16:04 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdYOxQ_cRuiYM=9_BLNrBKifzwp6FFHu2RP=v4E4UxjnA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?? ??? ?
????? ????? ????????? ????? ???? ?????: ???????

The whole world is filled with Krishna, what is this talk of identity and
difference? All disputes completely dissolve in you, O Krishna.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de  Thu Jun 13 16:59:35 2019
From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 19 18:59:35 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Malaya=CC=84l=CC=A3am@Tu=CC=88bingen_in_Summer_2019?=
Message-ID: <8A51B9F3-D35E-43FD-B98B-A64D057AE5CB@uni-tuebingen.de>

Dear members of the list,
Dear Malayalam enthusiasts,

In July and August the following Malayalam courses will take place at the University of T?bingen - seats are still available!
Flyer attached.

Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin
Introduction into the Reading of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in Malayalam Script
Friday, 26/07 and Saturday, 27/07

Prof. Dr. Anithakumary | Holder of the ?Gundert Chair?
Malayalam: Grammar and Readings I
Monday, 29/07 ? Friday, 02/08
Malayalam: Grammar and Readings II
Monday, 05/08 ? Friday 09/08
Daily 10-13 and 15-17 h.

Command of the Malayalam script and a basic knowledge of the language are prerequisites.

Further information & registration: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de <mailto:heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de>

Best regards,
Heike Oberlin


-------------------
Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin
Eberhard Karls University of Tuebingen
Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI)
Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion
Keplerstr. 2 (room 139)  ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany

Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066
heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de
 
http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/aoi/indologie/mitarbeiter/heike-oberlin-moser.html






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From rpjain1903 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 02:25:28 2019
From: rpjain1903 at gmail.com (R. P. Jain)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 07:55:28 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gV29yZCDgpKrgpYHgpLfgpY3gpKrgpLXgpKjgpY3gpKTgpIM=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZiL4U=RjN5ES2EQR3UAjQYSjUCaNkpRiYb_-jsUOPAaQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8818ECCC-3218-4A24-B8BA-E7B1D1FCFF43@gmail.com>

On 13-Jun-2019, at 6:42 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear all
> I am looking for a word 
> ?????????? (not ?????)from Kosas I searched Vaijayanti and Visvaprakasa but could not find there. If you find this word in any Kosas kindly inform.
> I found this word in the Commentary of Amarakosa that is Sudha on the verse ?????????? and seen usage in VisvaguNadarsa Champu
> 
> Yours sincerely
> KP
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Fri Jun 14 06:40:30 2019
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 08:40:30 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_de_grammaticis_Pr=C4=81criticis?=
Message-ID: <CAETY2G30YBDr0Jhsj-Oj65NWqpvzGcN2jiqoK+R60VgV1Ja67A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

Does anyone happen to have a PDF of Pischel's de grammaticis Pr?criticis? I
have not been able to find a scan of it on the internet in the usual places.

Many thanks as always,

Victor


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Fri Jun 14 07:06:34 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 07:06:34 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_de_grammaticis_Pr=C4=81criticis?=
In-Reply-To: <CAETY2G30YBDr0Jhsj-Oj65NWqpvzGcN2jiqoK+R60VgV1Ja67A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5E54654-1A08-488A-BD49-D6AFD808EE19@uclouvain.be>

Maybe somebody in the USA (exemplars from Chicago) has full access to the first 2 urls:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MW9OwgEACAAJ

https://books.google.com/books?id=hjVIAQAAMAAJ

https://books.google.com/books?id=l2W3uQEACAAJ

(Dissertatio inauguralis... in alma Universitate... Viadrina, 1874; Note his "first" Dissertatio, 1870, on Sakuntala
https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/resolve/display/bsb10996685.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=ffNdAerm0p0C
https://books.google.com/books?id=fvJRAAAAcAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=UdPuoqIUHiIC

Le 14 juin 2019 ? 08:40, victor davella via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :

Dear all,

Does anyone happen to have a PDF of Pischel's de grammaticis Pr?criticis? I have not been able to find a scan of it on the internet in the usual places.

Many thanks as always,

Victor
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Fri Jun 14 07:08:29 2019
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 07:08:29 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] WSC 2021: Special panel proposal deadline
In-Reply-To: <jKW7VtfLS2eYQG9MIlkn9g@ismtpd0008p1maa1.sendgrid.net>
Message-ID: <ME2PR01MB3970591DB8BD732F781A584FAEEE0@ME2PR01MB3970.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

With apologies for any cross-posting





[Header Image]
The deadline for proposing a Special Panel is fast approaching - all proposals must be submitted by 30 June.


The 18th World Sanskrit Conference will be held in Canberra, Australia?s capital city, from 18 to 22 January 2021.The World Sanskrit Conference is the premier international forum for professional researchers and educators of the Sanskrit language and its literatures, and of the history, religion and cultures of premodern South Asia.

The theme of WSC2021 is ?Future Directions?.

We want to take this opportunity to look forward with strength and optimism to imagine together where Sanskrit studies might be headed in the decades to come. How will globalisation, information technology, new theoretical approaches and interdisciplinary interactions shape our work in future?

We envisage a conference that draws on the best of Australian culture and hospitality, a conference that is relaxed, informal, friendly and inclusive. It will be our pleasure to welcome you to Canberra, a city planned as the capital of Australia and designed to harmonise with its setting in the surrounding landscape. It is known as ?the bush capital??and, yes, kangaroos do hop down suburban streets.

General Information?
WSC2021 will be held on the campus of The Australian National University, in Canberra, Australia. The conference will feature 22 regular thematic sections, listed below. For each section, a set of invited convenors, specialists in the respective fields, will assist in maintaining a high scholarly standard for the conference. Convenors will select individual papers for presentation at WSC2021 and nominate session chairs. The convenors will also be in charge of selecting and editing papers for publication in the proceedings, details of which will be announced in future communications.

For up-to-date information and all important announcements, please visit www.wsc2021.com.au,<http://www.wsc2021.com.au/> where you can also join the official WSC2021 email list. Conference registration, paper submissions, accommodation information and payment of fees will all be conducted through this website portal.
Call for Papers and Special Panels?
WSC2021 invites individual papers to be presented in one of the 22 regular sections. We are also calling for proposals for special panels. Interested scholars are welcome to submit either an abstract for an individual paper to a regular section or to propose a special panel of four to six participants through the conference website at www.wsc2021.com.au. <http://www.wsc2021.com.au/> The deadline for panel proposals is 30 June 2019, and the deadline for individual paper abstracts is 31 March 2020. Successful panel proposals will be announced in the Second Circular. Scholars will be invited to submit abstracts to these special panels after that date.

Each paper will be allotted a time of 20 minutes, with an additional 10 minutes for discussion. Papers may be delivered in English or Sanskrit. We encourage scholars who are presenting a paper in Sanskrit to provide a summary in English.
Key Dates and Deadlines?
Note that these dates are subject to change. For the latest information, visit our website: www.wsc2021.com.au<http://www.wsc2021.com.au/>

Individual speakers and titles of papers accepted for presentation at WSC 2021 will be announced through the conference website in late 2020.





Special panel proposal deadline

30 June 2019

Special panel notification

30 September 2019

Second circular and call for papers for special panels

31 October 2019

Third circular and registration opens

31 January 2020

Individual paper abstract deadline

31 March 2020

Notify presenters of paper acceptance

30 June 2020

Presenters confirm attendance

31 July 2020

Early bird registration closes

31 August 2020

Final registration for presenters

30 September 2020

Fourth circular

31 October 2020

Conference opens

18 January 2021

Conference excursions

20 January 2021

Conference ends

22 January 2021

All participants who plan to present a paper must pay their registration fee by 30 September 2020, or their paper will be cancelled. Last minute registration will be available only for non-presenting participants and guests.

Registration Fees?

?We will attempt to keep the registration fees as low as possible. Registration will open on 31 January 2020.

IASS Membership?
As agreed with the International Association for Sanskrit Studies, all WSC2021 registrations will include a three-year membership of IASS (www.sanskritassociation.org<http://www.sanskritassociation.org/>). You will have the option to opt out.
Regular Sections?

The 22 regular sections are listed below.

1. Veda
2. Linguistics
3. Vy?kara?
4. Epics
5. Pur??as
6. Tantra Studies
7. Ritual Studies
8.  Poetry, Drama and Aesthetics
9.  Scientific Literature
10.  Buddhist Studies
11.  Jaina Studies
12.  Vai??avism and ?aivism

13. Religious Studies
14. Philosophy
15.  History, Art and Architecture, Epigraphy
16.  Sanskrit and Regional Languages (including Southeast Asia)
17. Sanskrit Pedagogy
18. Modern Sanskrit Writings
19. Computational Sanskrit and Digital Humanities
20. Manuscriptology
21. Law and Society
22. Yoga and ?yurveda



Travel and Visa Arrangements?
We urge participants to make their travel arrangements as early as possible to minimise costs. In addition, participants should familiarise themselves with any visa requirements that they might have for entering Australia.

The Organising Committee cannot offer personal assistance or advice on how to secure the appropriate Australian visa, since the process differs widely from country to country. For more information and guidance, please consult the Australian Government?s official website (https://w<http://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/visi)>ww.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/visi) <http://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/visi)> and contact your local Australian Embassy, High Commission or Consulate for specific instructions as early as possible. The time required for securing a visa can be unpredictable and may be as long as several months.

As soon as your abstract has been accepted, we will be able to provide a letter of confirmation to help you secure your visa or travel funds.

After you register, we will send the Australian government your details to facilitate visa applications. For this purpose, participants will need to supply country of passport, passport number, full name (as in their passport), date of birth, gender, current country of residence, and contact details (i.e., email, telephone, address) when registering.

Sorry, No Travel Grants?
Travel to Australia is expensive, particularly for scholars coming from South or Southeast Asia, and we are making every effort to keep costs down. However, we regret the WSC cannot offer travel assistance. Participants should seek travel assistance, grants or bursaries from their home institutions or from governmental or international granting agencies.
Student Prize?
In the spirit of the conference theme, ?Future Directions?, and spurred by our shared desire to encourage and support emerging scholars in whose hands the future lies, we will be awarding a prize for the most outstanding presentation by a currently enrolled Masters or PhD student. We will be inviting section convenors to nominate suitable candidates.
Accommodation?
Canberra offers a wide range of accommodation, both on- and off-campus. Participants will be able to book their own accommodation closer to the conference. The next circular will present a list of suggestions.
Poets? Forum and Scholars? Debate?

As at previous conferences, we will be hosting a Poets? Forum (Kavi-samav?ya) and a Scholars? Debate

(??stra-cac?r). Further details will be provided at a later date.

Excursions and Entertainment?
We are keen to showcase the best that Canberra and Australia have to offer, and we are planning an exciting program of entertainment and excursions. Details to follow.



Local Organising Committee?
Mark Allon, University of Sydney Greg Bailey, La Trobe University

Adam Bowles, University of Queensland Barbara Nelson, ANU

McComas Taylor, ANU (Chair)

WSC2021 Secretariat?

Kaigi Conferencing and Events

Level 1, The Realm, 18 National Circuit, Barton ACT 2600, Australia

Email: sanskrit at kaigi.com.au

Phone: +61 2 6198 3218

Website: www.wsc2021.com.au<http://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/>



International Steering Committee?

Jayandra Soni                               Secretary General, IASS

Georges Pinault                            Treasurer, IASS

Donald R. Davis                            University of Texas at Austin

James Hegarty                              Cardiff University

Kengo Harimoto                            Mahidol University

Joanna Jurewicz                            University of Warsaw

Shonaleeka Kaul                           Jawaharlal Nehru University

Amarjiva Lochan                           University of Delhi

Clemency Montelle                       University of Canterbury

Wendy Phillips Rodr?guez            Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico

Adheesh Sathaye                         University of British Columbia

Ye Shaoyong                                Peking University

About our Logo?
The WSC2021 logo includes a globe on the left which represents the universal nature of our conference and is inspired by our motto, Vasudhaiva ku?umbakam ?The whole world is our family?. The central element is based on the famous A?oka-cakra. The wheel is significant for the major Indian spiritual traditions, and is also the national symbol of India itself. The third element is drawn from an Indigenous artistic tradition from Central Australia and represents four people sharing companionship around a fire.

With these three elements the logo expresses our aspiration for the World Sanskrit Conference: that scholars from all over the world will come together to learn from one another and share their love for this precious language.

The WSC2021 logo was designed by Fiona Edge of Edge Design in Canberra. Its creation was sponsored by the Sanskrit scholars of Australia.


Finally, Contact Us?
All enquiries: sanskrit at kaigi.com.au Website: www.wsc2021.com.au<http://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/>

Kind regards,

WSC2021 Secretariat
Kaigi Conferencing and Events
Level 1, The Realm, 18 National Circuit
Barton ACT 2600
Australia

Email: sanskrit at kaigi.com.au
Phone: +61 2 6198 3218
Website: www.wsc2021.com.au<http://www.wsc2021.com.au/>





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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 11:50:57 2019
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 07:50:57 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_de_grammaticis_Pr=C4=81criticis?=
In-Reply-To: <A5E54654-1A08-488A-BD49-D6AFD808EE19@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <CAANHO14WVrbx9qHGo-XA7Y19YzO3vcOu9LueQC1x-DZ6HwZ0iQ@mail.gmail.com>

I just uploaded it to Archive.org:

https://ia601405.us.archive.org/5/items/DeGrammaticisPracriticis/pischel-de_grammaticis_pracriticis_cropped.pdf

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:07 AM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Maybe somebody in the USA (exemplars from Chicago) has full access to the
> first 2 urls:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=MW9OwgEACAAJ
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=hjVIAQAAMAAJ
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=l2W3uQEACAAJ
>
> (Dissertatio inauguralis... in alma Universitate... Viadrina, 1874; Note
> his "first" Dissertatio, 1870, on Sakuntala
> https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/resolve/display/bsb10996685.html
> https://books.google.com/books?id=ffNdAerm0p0C
> https://books.google.com/books?id=fvJRAAAAcAAJ
> https://books.google.com/books?id=UdPuoqIUHiIC
>
> Le 14 juin 2019 ? 08:40, victor davella via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
>
> Dear all,
>
> Does anyone happen to have a PDF of Pischel's de grammaticis Pr?criticis?
> I have not been able to find a scan of it on the internet in the usual
> places.
>
> Many thanks as always,
>
> Victor
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Fri Jun 14 12:00:53 2019
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 14:00:53 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_de_grammaticis_Pr=C4=81criticis?=
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO14WVrbx9qHGo-XA7Y19YzO3vcOu9LueQC1x-DZ6HwZ0iQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAETY2G3jQZ7V9R1XhJ8ZbkOSPZOk9RVauUwcscySanECASgb4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to Andrew for uploading the text for us.

All the Best,
Victor

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:51 PM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I just uploaded it to Archive.org:
>
>
> https://ia601405.us.archive.org/5/items/DeGrammaticisPracriticis/pischel-de_grammaticis_pracriticis_cropped.pdf
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:07 AM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Maybe somebody in the USA (exemplars from Chicago) has full access to the
>> first 2 urls:
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=MW9OwgEACAAJ
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=hjVIAQAAMAAJ
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=l2W3uQEACAAJ
>>
>> (Dissertatio inauguralis... in alma Universitate... Viadrina, 1874; Note
>> his "first" Dissertatio, 1870, on Sakuntala
>> https://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/resolve/display/bsb10996685.html
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=ffNdAerm0p0C
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=fvJRAAAAcAAJ
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=UdPuoqIUHiIC
>>
>> Le 14 juin 2019 ? 08:40, victor davella via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Does anyone happen to have a PDF of Pischel's de grammaticis Pr?criticis?
>> I have not been able to find a scan of it on the internet in the usual
>> places.
>>
>> Many thanks as always,
>>
>> Victor
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>> ???????????????????
>> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun 14 13:38:32 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 06:38:32 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcLGte_p3Z7OrhorVRsRDTjB70Y7MNmm_cc3=kXqTMkAg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?? ??? ?
????? ????? ????????? ????? ???? ?????: ???????

The whole world is filled with Krishna, what is this talk of identity and
difference? All disputes completely dissolve in you, O Krishna.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun 14 13:46:08 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 19 06:46:08 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeiV9X-eTP3q9k9daEs3thQb-uh8+tEcTZ=s1eYK+Se3A@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????: ?
???????????????????? ???: ????? ?????? ???????

Neither being, nor non-being, nor being and non-being, nor neither being
nor non-being, Krishna, beyond all categories, plays in Gokula.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 05:23:45 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 10:53:45 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKTgpY3gpLDgpL/gpJXgpL7gpKPgpY3gpKHgpLbgpYfgpLcgb2Yg4KSq4KWB4KSw4KWB4KS34KWL4KSk4KWN4KSk4KSu4KSm4KWH4KS1?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUO9UyZpCWJyasyKKcXgopvDxyNfZXQQzv9ACHv1TDXGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Scholars,
It is my pleasure to present the following work to scholarly community.

Trik???a?e?a of Puru?ottamadeva

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/trikandashesha_purushottamadeva/orig/trikandashesha.txt

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 09:56:52 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 15:26:52 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIXgpKjgpYfgpJXgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpKTgpL/gpLLgpJUgb2Yg4KSu4KS54KWA4KSq?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzXUtOqbbhRCq5wiTXQAS+Ta0H9AhMOY8qwAbiyR45iO4A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Scholars,

It gives me immense pleasure to bring this work to scholarly community.

Anek?rthatilaka of Mah?pa

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/anekarthatilaka_mahipa/orig/anekarthatilaka.txt

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun 15 13:13:23 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 06:13:23 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzf5AOLqK2FKEJy-m24VGGuktCBHHLHmFL3AX1o7+y=xjw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

? ??? ????????? ??: ??????? ????: ?
???????? ??? ????????????? ???????: ???????

There is no such thing as this bank and that bank. There is only one
Krishna everywhere. Do not fear no matter where you are, since Krishna is
standing on both banks.

????? ??????
????? ???? ??????? ?
??? ?????? ?????
??? ????? ?????? ???? ??

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 15 16:01:34 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 17:01:34 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81vastu_questions?=
Message-ID: <409E0C2F-E1B3-4923-B371-8E9FC58E0725@btinternet.com>

Dear Colleagues

(1) Does anyone know where there is a searchable Sanskrit text of the Mah?vastu Avad?na online? The one formerly at http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm seems to have disappeared.

(2) Similarly with a searchable translation? The versions I?ve found of the J J Jones one are frustrating to use: see (3).

(3) Does anyone understand the verse and chapter numbering of this text? The text references and translation seem to use a completely different system.

(4) Has anyone got Basak?s text to hand? If so, I would be grateful to see copies of a couple of pages.

Many thanks -

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK







From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 16:39:19 2019
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 18:39:19 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81vastu_questions?=
In-Reply-To: <409E0C2F-E1B3-4923-B371-8E9FC58E0725@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <e8db7046-6f28-0e30-a767-6234a7247c7e@gmail.com>

Dear Valerie,

the GRETIL-text of Senart's edition is here:

http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm

This text (consisting of three great chapters) Jones translated in three 
volumes. In volume 1 you'll find the numbers of the chapters 1.1-1.366 
(of Senart's edition). Jones mentions only the secondary numbers 1-366. 
The same in vol. 2 and 3.

Best

Heiner


Am 15.06.2019 um 18:01 schrieb Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Colleagues
>
> (1) Does anyone know where there is a searchable Sanskrit text of the Mah?vastu Avad?na online? The one formerly at http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm seems to have disappeared.
>
> (2) Similarly with a searchable translation? The versions I?ve found of the J J Jones one are frustrating to use: see (3).
>
> (3) Does anyone understand the verse and chapter numbering of this text? The text references and translation seem to use a completely different system.
>
> (4) Has anyone got Basak?s text to hand? If so, I would be grateful to see copies of a couple of pages.
>
> Many thanks -
>
> Valerie J Roebuck
> Manchester, UK
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com






From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 16:50:10 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 22:20:10 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKjgpL7gpK7gpK7gpL7gpLLgpL4gb2Yg4KSn4KSo4KSe4KWN4KSc4KSv?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVVma9pXypGpMhhq6Xwp9cb0U4b=0tX5L-J04CMsVmS2g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Scholars,
It gives me immense pleasure to present the below mentioned work.
N?mam?l? of Dhana?jaya.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/namamala_dhananjaya/orig/namamala.txt

CREDITS:
The work was digitized by Sansknet project and preserved at
https://www.wilbourhall.org/sansknet/index.html. The data was in a legacy
font. It has been converted to unicode.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 15 17:50:04 2019
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 17:50:04 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81vastu_questions?=
In-Reply-To: <409E0C2F-E1B3-4923-B371-8E9FC58E0725@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR09MB3587F566851056757E43C2FBA5E90@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Valerie,

Might I suggest you read the following:

Tournier, Vincent. 2012. ?The Mah?vastu and the Vinayapi?aka of the Mah?s??ghika-Lokottarav?din.? Annual Report of the International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology at Soka University for the Academic Year 2011 15: 87?104.
???. 2017. La formation du Mah?vastu et la mise en place des conceptions relatives ? la carri?re du bodhisattva. Monographies 195. Paris: ?cole fran?aise d?Extr?me-Orient.

You will learn among many other things that Mah?vastu-Avad?na is not a correct designation of the text.

Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths





________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2019 4:01 PM
To: indology List List
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mah?vastu questions

Dear Colleagues

(1) Does anyone know where there is a searchable Sanskrit text of the Mah?vastu Avad?na online? The one formerly at http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm seems to have disappeared.

(2) Similarly with a searchable translation? The versions I?ve found of the J J Jones one are frustrating to use: see (3).

(3) Does anyone understand the verse and chapter numbering of this text? The text references and translation seem to use a completely different system.

(4) Has anyone got Basak?s text to hand? If so, I would be grateful to see copies of a couple of pages.

Many thanks -

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Sat Jun 15 19:07:51 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 20:07:51 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81vastu_questions?=
Message-ID: <601E3BB3-483B-4F9A-888D-DA5FC97ABE2A@btinternet.com>

Dear Colleagues

Thank you so much for the link to the new version at http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm

It works perfectly. I wonder why Google couldn?t find it?

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK



> (1) Does anyone know where there is a searchable Sanskrit text of the Mah?vastu Avad?na online? The one formerly at http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm <http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm>seems to have disappeared.
> 
> (2) Similarly with a searchable translation? The versions I?ve found of the J J Jones one are frustrating to use: see (3).
> 
> (3) Does anyone understand the verse and chapter numbering of this text? The text references and translation seem to use a completely different system.
> 
> (4) Has anyone got Basak?s text to hand? If so, I would be grateful to see copies of a couple of pages.



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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sat Jun 15 21:01:34 2019
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 19 15:01:34 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81vastu_questions?=
In-Reply-To: <409E0C2F-E1B3-4923-B371-8E9FC58E0725@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekZDuknK10b_4ZoWEkX1nzio40-bzzTrWpsyeRLM3YGCeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Valerie,

On your question no. 2, the scan of the J. J. Jones translation that I made
and posted is searchable:

http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_one_1949_eng.pdf
http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_two_1952_eng.pdf
http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_three_1956_eng.pdf

On your question no. 3, Jones inserted the page numbers of the Senart
edition into his translation, so that is the easiest way to correlate the
two.

On your question no. 4, I do not have Basak's edition, but when I examined
it at a library I noted that it is based on or copied from Senart's
edition. He added a Bengali translation.

Glad that someone else already answered no. 1, with a link to the online
searchable Sanskrit text at GRETIL. As you know, and as noted here by
Seishi Karashima on May 16, a new (and much improved) edition is coming out
shortly:

*The Mah?vastu: A New Edition*, vol. III, ed. by Katarzyna Marciniak
(Bibliotheca Philologica et Philosophica Buddhica XIV,1)

ISBN 978-4-904234-18-1.

A PDF file will soon be made available at the following link:
http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html


Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 10:02 AM Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues
>
> (1) Does anyone know where there is a searchable Sanskrit text of the
> Mah?vastu Avad?na online? The one formerly at
> http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm
> seems to have disappeared.
>
> (2) Similarly with a searchable translation? The versions I?ve found of
> the J J Jones one are frustrating to use: see (3).
>
> (3) Does anyone understand the verse and chapter numbering of this text?
> The text references and translation seem to use a completely different
> system.
>
> (4) Has anyone got Basak?s text to hand? If so, I would be grateful to see
> copies of a couple of pages.
>
> Many thanks -
>
> Valerie J Roebuck
> Manchester, UK
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Sun Jun 16 08:16:25 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 19 09:16:25 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81vastu_questions?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekZDuknK10b_4ZoWEkX1nzio40-bzzTrWpsyeRLM3YGCeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <171774F1-4476-422F-AE81-3A7B22FAF762@btinternet.com>

Dear David

That?s absolutely marvellous - a beautifully clear and searchable copy.

I?m primarily looking into this for an online bibliography of Dhammapada/Dharmapada/Ud?navarga literature. The publishers only want me to list material that is currently available, but I will be able to add the new edition when it is published. (Most of the Dharmapada material in the Mah?vastu will no doubt be in vol. III.)

Many thanks -

Valerie

Valerie Roebuck
vjroebuck at btinternet.com



> On 15 Jun 2019, at 22:01, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Valerie,
> 
> On your question no. 2, the scan of the J. J. Jones translation that I made and posted is searchable:
> 
> http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_one_1949_eng.pdf <http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_one_1949_eng.pdf>
> http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_two_1952_eng.pdf <http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_two_1952_eng.pdf>
> http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_three_1956_eng.pdf <http://prajnaquest.fr/downloads/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Buddhist%20Texts/mahavastu_vol_three_1956_eng.pdf>
> 
> On your question no. 3, Jones inserted the page numbers of the Senart edition into his translation, so that is the easiest way to correlate the two.
> 
> On your question no. 4, I do not have Basak's edition, but when I examined it at a library I noted that it is based on or copied from Senart's edition. He added a Bengali translation.
> 
> Glad that someone else already answered no. 1, with a link to the online searchable Sanskrit text at GRETIL. As you know, and as noted here by Seishi Karashima on May 16, a new (and much improved) edition is coming out shortly:
> 
> The Mah?vastu: A New Edition, vol. III, ed. by Katarzyna Marciniak (Bibliotheca Philologica et Philosophica Buddhica XIV,1)
> 		ISBN 978-4-904234-18-1.
> 		A PDF file will soon be made available at the following link: http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html <http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html>
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 10:02 AM Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear Colleagues
> 
> (1) Does anyone know where there is a searchable Sanskrit text of the Mah?vastu Avad?na online? The one formerly at http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm <http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/mhvastuu.htm> seems to have disappeared.
> 
> (2) Similarly with a searchable translation? The versions I?ve found of the J J Jones one are frustrating to use: see (3).
> 
> (3) Does anyone understand the verse and chapter numbering of this text? The text references and translation seem to use a completely different system.
> 
> (4) Has anyone got Basak?s text to hand? If so, I would be grateful to see copies of a couple of pages.
> 
> Many thanks -
> 
> Valerie J Roebuck
> Manchester, UK
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun 16 13:31:40 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 19 06:31:40 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzd1aDT2PcEfYTEV32d3HNbB_5HZ04XKNzgYEoCh4J0hdw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????????????????? ????? ???????: ?
???????? ????????? ???? ?? ???? ????: ???????

My Krishna is standing on both banks. Why should my mind be interested in
worrying about the other bank?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Mon Jun 17 05:38:34 2019
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 07:38:34 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Har=E1=B9=A3a_of_Kashmir_[Publication_Announcement]?=
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nX8iMDvXGcRnzOenfx3uLbrBY4wnYSWJzCv_2fBA7L-Yg@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear Scholars,

it is my pleasure to draw your attention to a new publication in the field
of Indological research.

Kindly regarding,
Walter Slaje

Har?a von Kaschmir. Ein politisches Sittengem?lde aus dem indischen
Mittelalter. Kalha?as R?jatara?gi?? (Buch 7) mit annotierter ?bersetzung
kritisch neu herausgegeben von Walter Slaje [Akademie der Wissen?schaften
und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der Kommission f?r
Au?ereurop?ische Sprachen und Kulturen. 4.]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz. 2019,
377 S.

Book link:
https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Ein_politisches_Sittengem%C3%A4lde_aus_dem_indischen_Mittelalter/titel_5869.ahtml

Series link:
https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/reihenwerk_455.ahtml

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


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From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 08:32:27 2019
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 17:32:27 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Kampil/K=C4=81mpilya?=
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QCQQdTTdVHhX2B1cV-vBH6xEr2neX1M_2TNQBY95A+aow@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I would like to know more about the identification of present-day Kampil
(Uttar Pradesh) with the town named K?mpilya that is mentioned in the
Mah?bh?rata. In particular, I am wondering to which extent such
identification is supported by past and current scholarship and on which
grounds, apart from the similarity of the two names.
The relevant entry in Ghosh' *Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology* refers
to one of Alexander Cunningham's report - this is all I could find so far.

In case, I would be grateful for any relevant references or suggestions.

Best wishes,
Gaia Pintucci


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 10:24:52 2019
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 15:54:52 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Kampil/K=C4=81mpilya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAOYD-QCQQdTTdVHhX2B1cV-vBH6xEr2neX1M_2TNQBY95A+aow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eY=DhH-gSduQDVPgtXgZGR-F=hZKrrVp=4g=t6HXRDgaw@mail.gmail.com>

There is a Kampli in Karnataka too:

http://villagemap.in/karnataka/koppal/koppal/602500.html

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 2:03 PM Gaia Pintucci via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I would like to know more about the identification of present-day Kampil
> (Uttar Pradesh) with the town named K?mpilya that is mentioned in the
> Mah?bh?rata. In particular, I am wondering to which extent such
> identification is supported by past and current scholarship and on which
> grounds, apart from the similarity of the two names.
> The relevant entry in Ghosh' *Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology* refers
> to one of Alexander Cunningham's report - this is all I could find so far.
>
> In case, I would be grateful for any relevant references or suggestions.
>
> Best wishes,
> Gaia Pintucci
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 10:26:06 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 15:56:06 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request
Message-ID: <CAODNnZjcnnaDAyohghqSnmnMLSmt0oOn18zq1azijV=a1VP3Yg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all
I am searching for the following books.

I am really grateful for the help I receive. Could anyone do me this great
favor?



https://www.worldcat.org/title/saskrita-sarla-prabandha-prakasa/oclc/1016213040&referer=brief_results


https://www.worldcat.org/title/easy-sanskrit-prose-for-beginners/oclc/249100349&referer=brief_results
(it
is also called Udayana Charitam and available on the internet very poor
quality scan margin side letters are not at all printed)


https://www.worldcat.org/title/sakuntalacaritam-mahakavi-kalidasa-ke-abhijnanasakuntala-ke-adhara-para/oclc/573571491&referer=brief_results

https://www.worldcat.org/title/easy-sanskrit-prose-for-beginners/oclc/249100349&referer=brief_results


Harshacharita Sara by V Anantacharya (available on the internet but page
number 44,45,46 are missing)

Thanks
KP


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From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 10:36:04 2019
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 19:36:04 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Kampil/K=C4=81mpilya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eY=DhH-gSduQDVPgtXgZGR-F=hZKrrVp=4g=t6HXRDgaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QAFz6VSGjpQbngA=qwGAppH=zYJpXqDtw23-VW5AL76Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Paturi,

Thanks, I omitted this in my first message.
I knew about the town you mention from a 1956 article by Derrett, although
he does not seem to have a strong opinion as to the identification of the
mah?bh?ratian K?mpilya with Kampli in KA.

Gaia Pintucci

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 7:25 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> There is a Kampli in Karnataka too:
>
> http://villagemap.in/karnataka/koppal/koppal/602500.html
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 2:03 PM Gaia Pintucci via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> I would like to know more about the identification of present-day Kampil
>> (Uttar Pradesh) with the town named K?mpilya that is mentioned in the
>> Mah?bh?rata. In particular, I am wondering to which extent such
>> identification is supported by past and current scholarship and on which
>> grounds, apart from the similarity of the two names.
>> The relevant entry in Ghosh' *Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology*
>> refers to one of Alexander Cunningham's report - this is all I could find
>> so far.
>>
>> In case, I would be grateful for any relevant references or suggestions.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Gaia Pintucci
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 10:50:54 2019
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 16:20:54 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Kampil/K=C4=81mpilya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAOYD-QAFz6VSGjpQbngA=qwGAppH=zYJpXqDtw23-VW5AL76Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebdCQmX1U_dbdN=zt9wE0jFn0Hr5BOP1ALpffEC0iftnQ@mail.gmail.com>

There is a mention of Kaampilya in Kashi Khanda.

Sharing a snapshot with Kaampilya in the highlighted portion.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 4:06 PM Gaia Pintucci <gaiapintucci at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>
> Thanks, I omitted this in my first message.
> I knew about the town you mention from a 1956 article by Derrett, although
> he does not seem to have a strong opinion as to the identification of the
> mah?bh?ratian K?mpilya with Kampli in KA.
>
> Gaia Pintucci
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 7:25 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There is a Kampli in Karnataka too:
>>
>> http://villagemap.in/karnataka/koppal/koppal/602500.html
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 2:03 PM Gaia Pintucci via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear list members,
>>>
>>> I would like to know more about the identification of present-day Kampil
>>> (Uttar Pradesh) with the town named K?mpilya that is mentioned in the
>>> Mah?bh?rata. In particular, I am wondering to which extent such
>>> identification is supported by past and current scholarship and on which
>>> grounds, apart from the similarity of the two names.
>>> The relevant entry in Ghosh' *Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology*
>>> refers to one of Alexander Cunningham's report - this is all I could find
>>> so far.
>>>
>>> In case, I would be grateful for any relevant references or suggestions.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Gaia Pintucci
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jun 17 13:57:18 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 06:57:18 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdoxp1FimQq-6gKfuoqStvQeOP_eexEDtHwSqVdbwY=2A@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???????? ?????? ????? ???????? ???????: ?
??????????? ? ???????: ??????????? ?? ??????? ???????

I ask: "Where is that Gokula and where is that Krishna?" [A reply comes]:
"That Krishna is very close to you, and the Gokula is all around you."

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 22:51:39 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 19 16:51:39 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Kampil/K=C4=81mpilya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAOYD-QCQQdTTdVHhX2B1cV-vBH6xEr2neX1M_2TNQBY95A+aow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf5HeX8wP+hU9cdrJxpntAOYb93HX3DKBVTVbfx7Mgxcw@mail.gmail.com>

B. C. Law: https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.2348/page/n105

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 02:33, Gaia Pintucci via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I would like to know more about the identification of present-day Kampil
> (Uttar Pradesh) with the town named K?mpilya that is mentioned in the
> Mah?bh?rata. In particular, I am wondering to which extent such
> identification is supported by past and current scholarship and on which
> grounds, apart from the similarity of the two names.
> The relevant entry in Ghosh' *Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology* refers
> to one of Alexander Cunningham's report - this is all I could find so far.
>
> In case, I would be grateful for any relevant references or suggestions.
>
> Best wishes,
> Gaia Pintucci
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From samparkdev at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 06:04:38 2019
From: samparkdev at gmail.com (Diwakar singh)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 19 11:34:38 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Kampil/K=C4=81mpilya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cf5HeX8wP+hU9cdrJxpntAOYb93HX3DKBVTVbfx7Mgxcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F4A3360B-71DF-4EA8-BE07-0B5723B46C08@gmail.com>

Kindly see the link, the archaeological profile of the site could help to understand and contextualise the subject.
http://www.draupaditrust.org/content/Culture%20&%20Civilization/Report%20Kampil%20Excavation.pdf

Regards,
Diwakar k Singh 
Delhi University 


Sent from my iPhone

> On 18-Jun-2019, at 4:21 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> B. C. Law: https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.2348/page/n105
> 
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> Department of History and Classics,
> University of Alberta, Canada.
> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 02:33, Gaia Pintucci via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> Dear list members, 
>> 
>> I would like to know more about the identification of present-day Kampil (Uttar Pradesh) with the town named K?mpilya that is mentioned in the Mah?bh?rata. In particular, I am wondering to which extent such identification is supported by past and current scholarship and on which grounds, apart from the similarity of the two names.
>> The relevant entry in Ghosh' Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology refers to one of Alexander Cunningham's report - this is all I could find so far. 
>> 
>> In case, I would be grateful for any relevant references or suggestions.
>> 
>> Best wishes, 
>> Gaia Pintucci
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Tue Jun 18 14:05:00 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 19 14:05:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
Message-ID: <EA353642-361D-48D1-AB24-6674501DD0DC@uclouvain.be>

L?espace du sens. Approches de la philologie indienne / The Space of Meaning. Approaches to Indian Philology

Silvia D?Intino & Sheldon Pollock (sous la direction de / edited by). Avec la collaboration / With the collaboration of Micha?l MEYER.
Paris, Coll?ge de France, 2018, Publications de l?Institut de Civilisation Indienne, Fasc. 84. Diffusion De Boccard. ISBN : 978-2-86803-084-9. 50 ?

https://www.college-de-france.fr/media/etudes-indiennes/UPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf

For philologists, a text is a terrain to explore in minute detail in order to trace both a genealogy and the emergence of meaning. One must examine the traditions within which the text makes sense, or against which it posits itself, so as to shed light on all that concerns its meaning: its origins, developments, forms, nuances, peculiarities. If a text?s ?real meaning? can never be singular, but instead ?the sum total of meanings attributed to [it] over the course of its history? (S. Pollock), it is only in a given cultural context that meaning takes shape. Along with its times, a text?s meaning is a function of its spaces: the universe and network within which it is reproduced or transformed. We have therefore sought here to stress the text?s anchoring in a given cultural space, and to present philological practices as so many possible approaches to this space of meaning.

(a few articles are already available online, see below the urls on Academia)

ToC

Avant-propos

Introduction
Sheldon POLLOCK. ?Indian Philology?. Edition, Interpretation, and Difference
1. The General Form of Philology
2. The Elements of Philology in the World
2.1. Edition
2.2. Interpretation
3. Indian Conformity
3.1. Indian Conformity in Edition
3.2. Indian Conformity in Interpretation
4. Indian Difference
5. Philology as the Discipline of Making Sense of Areal Texts
5.1. Pluralist Edition
5.2. Pluralist Interpretation
Summary

I. ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes
Vedic and P??inian Studies

Charles MALAMOUD. Les saisons et les eaux. Remarques sur le premier prap??haka du Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka

Silvia D?INTINO. Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a
La le?on de S?ya?a
L?ex?g?se ancienne et le d?bat du sens
Ve?ka?am?dhava, ex?g?te grammairien
Interpr?ter, dans le temps
Conclusion

Cezary GALEWICZ. The R?japur Manuscript of Bha??oji?s Vedabh??yas?ra

Madhav M. DESHPANDE. Re-Viewing the Tradition. Language, Grammar and History

Edwin GEROW. Karman. Esquisse d?une syntaxe traditionnelle de la langue sanscrite
1. Les ant?c?dents rituels et grammaticaux
2. Le courant ? philosophique ? et son int?gration dans la grammaire
3. Renou et N?ge?a

Maria Piera CANDOTTI. Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain

II. Philologie/philosophie
Philology/Philosophy

Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON. Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya
1. ?conomie d?un ?nonc? : l?auteur au travail
1.1. Pr?ambule. Auteur et ex?g?tes : la posture philologique indienne
1.2. D?fense et illustration du non-dualisme ?aiva : manifestation du monde et ?manation phon?matique
1.3. O? l?auteur pr?f?re un ?nonc? ? un autre : ?yasya sv?tantrya?akty?? iti tyaktv? ?yasyonme?anime??bhy?m? iti nyar?pi guru??
2. ?conomie (et po?tique) du texte : Spandak?rik? 52 et 53
2.1. Spandak?rik? 52
2.2. Spandak?rik? 53
3. Conclusions
Annexe 1. Le concept de vaikhar?
Annexe 2. Tableaux
Tableau 1. unme?a-nime?a
Tableau 2. Les Spandak?rik? : Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte
Tableau 3. Spandak?rik? vv. 51-52-53 .

Eli FRANCO. Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika
The Problem
The Dominant Paradigm in Modern Scholarship on Dharmak?rti?s Work
Traditional Buddhist Explanations
Addendum: Yam?ri on Faithfulness and Novelty in Commentaries
https://www.academia.edu/39221550/Yam?ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram??av?rttika

Vincent ELTSCHINGER. From Commentary to Philosophy, or Lectio and Disputatio in Indian Buddhist Commentarial Literature
1. Comparing Scholasticisms
2. From Lectio to Disputatio
3. The Theory of Indian Buddhist Commentary
Conclusion
https://www.academia.edu/39161414/From_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature

Isabelle RATI?. For an Indian Philology of Margins. The Case of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
The Virtually Unexplored Field of Indian Manuscript Margins
What do the Margins of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts Contain?
Retrieving Lost Texts in the Margins of Kashmirian Manuscripts: the Case of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti on the ??varapratyabhij?? Treatise
A Jigsaw Puzzle: Examples from Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti, Chapter 2.1
Manuscript Margins and the Marginalization of Texts in Medieval Kashmir: the Quasi Obliteration of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti
On the Purpose(s) of Annotations in Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
A Learned Tradition: on Annotated Manuscripts Copied by Famous Kashmirian Authors
The N?gar? ?Revolution? and the Fate of Traditional Annotations
Conclusion: on Margins and the Indologists? ?Embarrassment of Riches?
Appendix I. Utpaladeva?s ??varapratyabhij??-Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
Appendix II. Marginal Sources for the Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
Appendix III. A Few Annotated Manuscripts
https://www.academia.edu/39195012/For_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts

III. ?pop?es, traditions savantes
Epics, Learned Traditions

John BROCKINGTON. Regions and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts. The Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata

Judit T?RZS?K. Abhinavagupta on the Epic. Some Remarks on the G?t?rthasa?graha and its M?la
1. Abhinavagupta?s Bhagavadg?t?
2. Questions of Author and Speaker
3. Vy?sa?s Intention, Consistency and Rigour
4. On Epic Irregularities
5. Texts, Consistency, and Some Remarks on Indian Philology

Claudine LE BLANC. Philologie de l??pop?e orale en Inde. Deux si?cles d?? inscriptions ?
1. L?? oralit? ? des philologues
2. ? Inscriptions ? : le texte des folkloristes
3. Diss?minations : philologie, traductions, nouvelles inscriptions

Carl W. ERNST. Disentangling the Persian Translations of Sanskrit Works on Yoga
K?mar?pan???ik?
?aw? al-?ay?t
?Ayn al-?ay?t
Ba?r al-?ay?t

Fabrizio SPEZIALE. ?il? or Do?a? The Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory of Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts .

IV. Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer
Cultural Models : Writing, Translating, Transposing

Jean-No?l ROBERT. Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et r??criture du sanscrit en chinois

Matthew T. KAPSTEIN. Other People?s Philology. Uses of Sanskrit in Tibet and China, 14th-19th Centuries
Appendix: The Lhasa Zhol Printery Edition of the ?Volumes of the Sciences?
Illustrations
https://www.academia.edu/39533867/Other_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c

J?rgen HANNEDER. The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism

David SHULMAN. A South Indian Canon of Visible Sound

Benedetta ZACCARELLO. Transferts et philologie d?auteur en contexte indien. Remarques sur l??tude g?n?tique des manuscrits d?Aurobindo Ghose
1. D?coloniser l?archive ?
2. Quels auteurs ?
3. Quels corpus pour quelles pratiques ?

Index
???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From tcoleman at coloradocollege.edu  Tue Jun 18 21:01:34 2019
From: tcoleman at coloradocollege.edu (Tracy Coleman)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 19 21:01:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
In-Reply-To: <EA353642-361D-48D1-AB24-6674501DD0DC@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <DM6PR06MB6025B70E4B86E40B323B5C12CFEA0@DM6PR06MB6025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Is Sheldon Pollock's Introduction to this volume available anywhere?


________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:05 AM
To: Indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology

This email originated outside Colorado College. Do not click links or attachments unless you know the content is safe.

L?espace du sens. Approches de la philologie indienne / The Space of Meaning. Approaches to Indian Philology

Silvia D?Intino & Sheldon Pollock (sous la direction de / edited by). Avec la collaboration / With the collaboration of Micha?l MEYER.
Paris, Coll?ge de France, 2018, Publications de l?Institut de Civilisation Indienne, Fasc. 84. Diffusion De Boccard. ISBN : 978-2-86803-084-9. 50 ?

https://www.college-de-france.fr/media/etudes-indiennes/UPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.college-de-france.fr%2Fmedia%2Fetudes-indiennes%2FUPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467004933&sdata=22gpIAdt%2FaGowi%2BQCSWQOJtP32jsj2AtwDxbieWqvLo%3D&reserved=0>

For philologists, a text is a terrain to explore in minute detail in order to trace both a genealogy and the emergence of meaning. One must examine the traditions within which the text makes sense, or against which it posits itself, so as to shed light on all that concerns its meaning: its origins, developments, forms, nuances, peculiarities. If a text?s ?real meaning? can never be singular, but instead ?the sum total of meanings attributed to [it] over the course of its history? (S. Pollock), it is only in a given cultural context that meaning takes shape. Along with its times, a text?s meaning is a function of its spaces: the universe and network within which it is reproduced or transformed. We have therefore sought here to stress the text?s anchoring in a given cultural space, and to present philological practices as so many possible approaches to this space of meaning.

(a few articles are already available online, see below the urls on Academia)

ToC

Avant-propos

Introduction
Sheldon POLLOCK. ?Indian Philology?. Edition, Interpretation, and Difference
1. The General Form of Philology
2. The Elements of Philology in the World
2.1. Edition
2.2. Interpretation
3. Indian Conformity
3.1. Indian Conformity in Edition
3.2. Indian Conformity in Interpretation
4. Indian Difference
5. Philology as the Discipline of Making Sense of Areal Texts
5.1. Pluralist Edition
5.2. Pluralist Interpretation
Summary

I. ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes
Vedic and P??inian Studies

Charles MALAMOUD. Les saisons et les eaux. Remarques sur le premier prap??haka du Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka

Silvia D?INTINO. Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a
La le?on de S?ya?a
L?ex?g?se ancienne et le d?bat du sens
Ve?ka?am?dhava, ex?g?te grammairien
Interpr?ter, dans le temps
Conclusion

Cezary GALEWICZ. The R?japur Manuscript of Bha??oji?s Vedabh??yas?ra

Madhav M. DESHPANDE. Re-Viewing the Tradition. Language, Grammar and History

Edwin GEROW. Karman. Esquisse d?une syntaxe traditionnelle de la langue sanscrite
1. Les ant?c?dents rituels et grammaticaux
2. Le courant ? philosophique ? et son int?gration dans la grammaire
3. Renou et N?ge?a

Maria Piera CANDOTTI. Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain

II. Philologie/philosophie
Philology/Philosophy

Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON. Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya
1. ?conomie d?un ?nonc? : l?auteur au travail
1.1. Pr?ambule. Auteur et ex?g?tes : la posture philologique indienne
1.2. D?fense et illustration du non-dualisme ?aiva : manifestation du monde et ?manation phon?matique
1.3. O? l?auteur pr?f?re un ?nonc? ? un autre : ?yasya sv?tantrya?akty?? iti tyaktv? ?yasyonme?anime??bhy?m? iti nyar?pi guru??
2. ?conomie (et po?tique) du texte : Spandak?rik? 52 et 53
2.1. Spandak?rik? 52
2.2. Spandak?rik? 53
3. Conclusions
Annexe 1. Le concept de vaikhar?
Annexe 2. Tableaux
Tableau 1. unme?a-nime?a
Tableau 2. Les Spandak?rik? : Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte
Tableau 3. Spandak?rik? vv. 51-52-53 .

Eli FRANCO. Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika
The Problem
The Dominant Paradigm in Modern Scholarship on Dharmak?rti?s Work
Traditional Buddhist Explanations
Addendum: Yam?ri on Faithfulness and Novelty in Commentaries
https://www.academia.edu/39221550/Yam?ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram??av?rttika<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39221550%2FYam%C4%81ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram%C4%81%E1%B9%87av%C4%81rttika&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467014928&sdata=XoGxDOo6QJYDufugRlwSUhi39eZh%2BBFZ4JYHbyHQL1E%3D&reserved=0>

Vincent ELTSCHINGER. From Commentary to Philosophy, or Lectio and Disputatio in Indian Buddhist Commentarial Literature
1. Comparing Scholasticisms
2. From Lectio to Disputatio
3. The Theory of Indian Buddhist Commentary
Conclusion
https://www.academia.edu/39161414/From_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39161414%2FFrom_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=7RRl8pcemlCZTHJiV8ruXmBS1dz5s5Fbcw%2BdT5FGRSk%3D&reserved=0>

Isabelle RATI?. For an Indian Philology of Margins. The Case of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
The Virtually Unexplored Field of Indian Manuscript Margins
What do the Margins of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts Contain?
Retrieving Lost Texts in the Margins of Kashmirian Manuscripts: the Case of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti on the ??varapratyabhij?? Treatise
A Jigsaw Puzzle: Examples from Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti, Chapter 2.1
Manuscript Margins and the Marginalization of Texts in Medieval Kashmir: the Quasi Obliteration of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti
On the Purpose(s) of Annotations in Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
A Learned Tradition: on Annotated Manuscripts Copied by Famous Kashmirian Authors
The N?gar? ?Revolution? and the Fate of Traditional Annotations
Conclusion: on Margins and the Indologists? ?Embarrassment of Riches?
Appendix I. Utpaladeva?s ??varapratyabhij??-Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
Appendix II. Marginal Sources for the Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
Appendix III. A Few Annotated Manuscripts
https://www.academia.edu/39195012/For_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39195012%2FFor_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=Hunyy7NBFRO7noOe1asTV0SBactQDBqNti4sFgK7BsA%3D&reserved=0>

III. ?pop?es, traditions savantes
Epics, Learned Traditions

John BROCKINGTON. Regions and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts. The Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata

Judit T?RZS?K. Abhinavagupta on the Epic. Some Remarks on the G?t?rthasa?graha and its M?la
1. Abhinavagupta?s Bhagavadg?t?
2. Questions of Author and Speaker
3. Vy?sa?s Intention, Consistency and Rigour
4. On Epic Irregularities
5. Texts, Consistency, and Some Remarks on Indian Philology

Claudine LE BLANC. Philologie de l??pop?e orale en Inde. Deux si?cles d?? inscriptions ?
1. L?? oralit? ? des philologues
2. ? Inscriptions ? : le texte des folkloristes
3. Diss?minations : philologie, traductions, nouvelles inscriptions

Carl W. ERNST. Disentangling the Persian Translations of Sanskrit Works on Yoga
K?mar?pan???ik?
?aw? al-?ay?t
?Ayn al-?ay?t
Ba?r al-?ay?t

Fabrizio SPEZIALE. ?il? or Do?a? The Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory of Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts .

IV. Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer
Cultural Models : Writing, Translating, Transposing

Jean-No?l ROBERT. Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et r??criture du sanscrit en chinois

Matthew T. KAPSTEIN. Other People?s Philology. Uses of Sanskrit in Tibet and China, 14th-19th Centuries
Appendix: The Lhasa Zhol Printery Edition of the ?Volumes of the Sciences?
Illustrations
https://www.academia.edu/39533867/Other_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39533867%2FOther_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=GcpTEIAxbjZEQ5ssTTqpoPo2y3rIlzfTUTXjnOcZoPc%3D&reserved=0>

J?rgen HANNEDER. The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism

David SHULMAN. A South Indian Canon of Visible Sound

Benedetta ZACCARELLO. Transferts et philologie d?auteur en contexte indien. Remarques sur l??tude g?n?tique des manuscrits d?Aurobindo Ghose
1. D?coloniser l?archive ?
2. Quels auteurs ?
3. Quels corpus pour quelles pratiques ?

Index
???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuclouvain.be%2Fen%2Fdirectories%2Fchristophe.vielle&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=YsOr5j6%2BZdClck0rIi5y3WCVn7w2SswMgsP73YcUftI%3D&reserved=0>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From hellwig7 at gmx.de  Wed Jun 19 06:55:45 2019
From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 08:55:45 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New version of the DCS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.30.1560873602.23193.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <da1c31cf-88ae-47ae-27a7-2a66b00dabee@gmx.de>

Dear all,

a new version of the DCS has been released, which includes a lot of
Vedic material such as Shaunaka 1-18.

Please note that the URL of the DCS has changed, although a redirect has
been created from its previous site:

http://www.sanskrit-linguistics.org/dcs

Best,
Oliver

---
Oliver Hellwig, IVS Z?rich





From michaelnm.meyer at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 08:15:15 2019
From: michaelnm.meyer at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C3=ABl_Meyer?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 10:15:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR06MB6025B70E4B86E40B323B5C12CFEA0@DM6PR06MB6025.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CANYWBZfCCvEteuwj_rEHHAEcScawaA1nTmaNXZ4VOsca5TutAQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have not yet finished to prepare the electronic documents. They will not
be publicly available until at least next week.

With best wishes,

Micha?l Meyer

Le mar. 18 juin 2019 ? 23:02, Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :

> Is Sheldon Pollock's Introduction to this volume available anywhere?
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:05 AM
> *To:* Indology
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
>
> This email originated outside Colorado College. Do not click links or
> attachments unless you know the content is safe.
>
> L?espace du sens. Approches de la philologie indienne / The Space of
> Meaning. Approaches to Indian Philology
>
> Silvia D?Intino & Sheldon Pollock (sous la direction de / edited by).
> Avec la collaboration / With the collaboration of Micha?l MEYER.
> Paris, Coll?ge de France, 2018, Publications de l?Institut de Civilisation
> Indienne, Fasc. 84. Diffusion De Boccard. ISBN : 978-2-86803-084-9. 50 ?
>
> https://www.college-de-france.fr/media/etudes-indiennes/UPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.college-de-france.fr%2Fmedia%2Fetudes-indiennes%2FUPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467004933&sdata=22gpIAdt%2FaGowi%2BQCSWQOJtP32jsj2AtwDxbieWqvLo%3D&reserved=0>
>
> For philologists, a text is a terrain to explore in minute detail in order
> to trace both a genealogy and the emergence of meaning. One must examine
> the traditions within which the text makes sense, or against which it
> posits itself, so as to shed light on all that concerns its meaning: its
> origins, developments, forms, nuances, peculiarities. If a text?s ?real
> meaning? can never be singular, but instead ?the sum total of meanings
> attributed to [it] over the course of its history? (S. Pollock), it is only
> in a given cultural context that meaning takes shape. Along with its
> times, a text?s meaning is a function of its spaces: the universe and
> network within which it is reproduced or transformed. We have therefore
> sought here to stress the text?s anchoring in a given cultural space, and
> to present philological practices as so many possible approaches to this
> space of meaning.
>
> (a few articles are already available online, see below the urls on
> Academia)
>
> ToC
>
> Avant-propos
>
> Introduction
> Sheldon POLLOCK. ?Indian Philology?. Edition, Interpretation, and
> Difference
> 1. The General Form of Philology
> 2. The Elements of Philology in the World
> 2.1. Edition
> 2.2. Interpretation
> 3. Indian Conformity
> 3.1. Indian Conformity in Edition
> 3.2. Indian Conformity in Interpretation
> 4. Indian Difference
> 5. Philology as the Discipline of Making Sense of Areal Texts
> 5.1. Pluralist Edition
> 5.2. Pluralist Interpretation
> Summary
>
> I. ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes
> Vedic and P??inian Studies
>
> Charles MALAMOUD. Les saisons et les eaux. Remarques sur le premier
> prap??haka du Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka
>
> Silvia D?INTINO. Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a
> La le?on de S?ya?a
> L?ex?g?se ancienne et le d?bat du sens
> Ve?ka?am?dhava, ex?g?te grammairien
> Interpr?ter, dans le temps
> Conclusion
>
> Cezary GALEWICZ. The R?japur Manuscript of Bha??oji?s Vedabh??yas?ra
>
> Madhav M. DESHPANDE. Re-Viewing the Tradition. Language, Grammar and
> History
>
> Edwin GEROW. Karman. Esquisse d?une syntaxe traditionnelle de la langue
> sanscrite
> 1. Les ant?c?dents rituels et grammaticaux
> 2. Le courant ? philosophique ? et son int?gration dans la grammaire
> 3. Renou et N?ge?a
>
> Maria Piera CANDOTTI. Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et
> construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain
>
> II. Philologie/philosophie
> Philology/Philosophy
>
> Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON. Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte
> indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya
> 1. ?conomie d?un ?nonc? : l?auteur au travail
> 1.1. Pr?ambule. Auteur et ex?g?tes : la posture philologique indienne
> 1.2. D?fense et illustration du non-dualisme ?aiva : manifestation du
> monde et ?manation phon?matique
> 1.3. O? l?auteur pr?f?re un ?nonc? ? un autre : ?yasya sv?tantrya?akty??
> iti tyaktv? ?yasyonme?anime??bhy?m? iti nyar?pi guru??
> 2. ?conomie (et po?tique) du texte : Spandak?rik? 52 et 53
> 2.1. Spandak?rik? 52
> 2.2. Spandak?rik? 53
> 3. Conclusions
> Annexe 1. Le concept de vaikhar?
> Annexe 2. Tableaux
> Tableau 1. unme?a-nime?a
> Tableau 2. Les Spandak?rik? : Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte
> Tableau 3. Spandak?rik? vv. 51-52-53 .
>
> Eli FRANCO. Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika
> The Problem
> The Dominant Paradigm in Modern Scholarship on Dharmak?rti?s Work
> Traditional Buddhist Explanations
> Addendum: Yam?ri on Faithfulness and Novelty in Commentaries
>
> https://www.academia.edu/39221550/Yam?ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram??av?rttika
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39221550%2FYam%C4%81ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram%C4%81%E1%B9%87av%C4%81rttika&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467014928&sdata=XoGxDOo6QJYDufugRlwSUhi39eZh%2BBFZ4JYHbyHQL1E%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Vincent ELTSCHINGER. From Commentary to Philosophy, or Lectio and
> Disputatio in Indian Buddhist Commentarial Literature
> 1. Comparing Scholasticisms
> 2. From Lectio to Disputatio
> 3. The Theory of Indian Buddhist Commentary
> Conclusion
>
> https://www.academia.edu/39161414/From_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39161414%2FFrom_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=7RRl8pcemlCZTHJiV8ruXmBS1dz5s5Fbcw%2BdT5FGRSk%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Isabelle RATI?. For an Indian Philology of Margins. The Case of Kashmirian
> Sanskrit Manuscripts
> The Virtually Unexplored Field of Indian Manuscript Margins
> What do the Margins of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts Contain?
> Retrieving Lost Texts in the Margins of Kashmirian Manuscripts: the Case
> of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti on the ??varapratyabhij?? Treatise
> A Jigsaw Puzzle: Examples from Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti, Chapter 2.1
> Manuscript Margins and the Marginalization of Texts in Medieval Kashmir:
> the Quasi Obliteration of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti
> On the Purpose(s) of Annotations in Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
> A Learned Tradition: on Annotated Manuscripts Copied by Famous Kashmirian
> Authors
> The N?gar? ?Revolution? and the Fate of Traditional Annotations
> Conclusion: on Margins and the Indologists? ?Embarrassment of Riches?
> Appendix I. Utpaladeva?s ??varapratyabhij??-Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
> Appendix II. Marginal Sources for the Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
> Appendix III. A Few Annotated Manuscripts
>
> https://www.academia.edu/39195012/For_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39195012%2FFor_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=Hunyy7NBFRO7noOe1asTV0SBactQDBqNti4sFgK7BsA%3D&reserved=0>
>
> III. ?pop?es, traditions savantes
> Epics, Learned Traditions
>
> John BROCKINGTON. Regions and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts. The
> Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata
>
> Judit T?RZS?K. Abhinavagupta on the Epic. Some Remarks on the
> G?t?rthasa?graha and its M?la
> 1. Abhinavagupta?s Bhagavadg?t?
> 2. Questions of Author and Speaker
> 3. Vy?sa?s Intention, Consistency and Rigour
> 4. On Epic Irregularities
> 5. Texts, Consistency, and Some Remarks on Indian Philology
>
> Claudine LE BLANC. Philologie de l??pop?e orale en Inde. Deux si?cles d??
> inscriptions ?
> 1. L?? oralit? ? des philologues
> 2. ? Inscriptions ? : le texte des folkloristes
> 3. Diss?minations : philologie, traductions, nouvelles inscriptions
>
> Carl W. ERNST. Disentangling the Persian Translations of Sanskrit Works on
> Yoga
> K?mar?pan???ik?
> ?aw? al-?ay?t
> ?Ayn al-?ay?t
> Ba?r al-?ay?t
>
> Fabrizio SPEZIALE. ?il? or Do?a? The Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory of
> Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts .
>
> IV. Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer
> Cultural Models : Writing, Translating, Transposing
>
> Jean-No?l ROBERT. Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et
> r??criture du sanscrit en chinois
>
> Matthew T. KAPSTEIN. Other People?s Philology. Uses of Sanskrit in Tibet
> and China, 14th-19th Centuries
> Appendix: The Lhasa Zhol Printery Edition of the ?Volumes of the Sciences?
> Illustrations
>
> https://www.academia.edu/39533867/Other_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39533867%2FOther_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=GcpTEIAxbjZEQ5ssTTqpoPo2y3rIlzfTUTXjnOcZoPc%3D&reserved=0>
>
> J?rgen HANNEDER. The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism
>
> David SHULMAN. A South Indian Canon of Visible Sound
>
> Benedetta ZACCARELLO. Transferts et philologie d?auteur en contexte
> indien. Remarques sur l??tude g?n?tique des manuscrits d?Aurobindo Ghose
> 1. D?coloniser l?archive ?
> 2. Quels auteurs ?
> 3. Quels corpus pour quelles pratiques ?
>
> Index
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuclouvain.be%2Fen%2Fdirectories%2Fchristophe.vielle&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=YsOr5j6%2BZdClck0rIi5y3WCVn7w2SswMgsP73YcUftI%3D&reserved=0>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From antonio.jardim at gmail.com  Wed Jun 19 08:20:11 2019
From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 18:20:11 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
In-Reply-To: <CANYWBZfCCvEteuwj_rEHHAEcScawaA1nTmaNXZ4VOsca5TutAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGDOqfrRT5DDwTVrrvusK2iSqqn8D-XChy4kzVU-yAYoAJuyXg@mail.gmail.com>

Is this book currently available for purchase, in-print and under
copyright?

If so, surely interested readers can just buy a copy or arrange for their
library to do so? 50 Euro is quite reasonable! :)

On Wed., 19 Jun. 2019, 18:16 Micha?l Meyer via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I have not yet finished to prepare the electronic documents. They will not
> be publicly available until at least next week.
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Micha?l Meyer
>
> Le mar. 18 juin 2019 ? 23:02, Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
>
>> Is Sheldon Pollock's Introduction to this volume available anywhere?
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:05 AM
>> *To:* Indology
>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
>>
>> This email originated outside Colorado College. Do not click links or
>> attachments unless you know the content is safe.
>>
>> L?espace du sens. Approches de la philologie indienne / The Space of
>> Meaning. Approaches to Indian Philology
>>
>> Silvia D?Intino & Sheldon Pollock (sous la direction de / edited by).
>> Avec la collaboration / With the collaboration of Micha?l MEYER.
>> Paris, Coll?ge de France, 2018, Publications de l?Institut de
>> Civilisation Indienne, Fasc. 84. Diffusion De Boccard. ISBN :
>> 978-2-86803-084-9. 50 ?
>>
>> https://www.college-de-france.fr/media/etudes-indiennes/UPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.college-de-france.fr%2Fmedia%2Fetudes-indiennes%2FUPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467004933&sdata=22gpIAdt%2FaGowi%2BQCSWQOJtP32jsj2AtwDxbieWqvLo%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> For philologists, a text is a terrain to explore in minute detail in
>> order to trace both a genealogy and the emergence of meaning. One must
>> examine the traditions within which the text makes sense, or against which
>> it posits itself, so as to shed light on all that concerns its meaning: its
>> origins, developments, forms, nuances, peculiarities. If a text?s ?real
>> meaning? can never be singular, but instead ?the sum total of meanings
>> attributed to [it] over the course of its history? (S. Pollock), it is only
>> in a given cultural context that meaning takes shape. Along with its
>> times, a text?s meaning is a function of its spaces: the universe and
>> network within which it is reproduced or transformed. We have therefore
>> sought here to stress the text?s anchoring in a given cultural space, and
>> to present philological practices as so many possible approaches to this
>> space of meaning.
>>
>> (a few articles are already available online, see below the urls on
>> Academia)
>>
>> ToC
>>
>> Avant-propos
>>
>> Introduction
>> Sheldon POLLOCK. ?Indian Philology?. Edition, Interpretation, and
>> Difference
>> 1. The General Form of Philology
>> 2. The Elements of Philology in the World
>> 2.1. Edition
>> 2.2. Interpretation
>> 3. Indian Conformity
>> 3.1. Indian Conformity in Edition
>> 3.2. Indian Conformity in Interpretation
>> 4. Indian Difference
>> 5. Philology as the Discipline of Making Sense of Areal Texts
>> 5.1. Pluralist Edition
>> 5.2. Pluralist Interpretation
>> Summary
>>
>> I. ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes
>> Vedic and P??inian Studies
>>
>> Charles MALAMOUD. Les saisons et les eaux. Remarques sur le premier
>> prap??haka du Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka
>>
>> Silvia D?INTINO. Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a
>> La le?on de S?ya?a
>> L?ex?g?se ancienne et le d?bat du sens
>> Ve?ka?am?dhava, ex?g?te grammairien
>> Interpr?ter, dans le temps
>> Conclusion
>>
>> Cezary GALEWICZ. The R?japur Manuscript of Bha??oji?s Vedabh??yas?ra
>>
>> Madhav M. DESHPANDE. Re-Viewing the Tradition. Language, Grammar and
>> History
>>
>> Edwin GEROW. Karman. Esquisse d?une syntaxe traditionnelle de la langue
>> sanscrite
>> 1. Les ant?c?dents rituels et grammaticaux
>> 2. Le courant ? philosophique ? et son int?gration dans la grammaire
>> 3. Renou et N?ge?a
>>
>> Maria Piera CANDOTTI. Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et
>> construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain
>>
>> II. Philologie/philosophie
>> Philology/Philosophy
>>
>> Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON. Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte
>> indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya
>> 1. ?conomie d?un ?nonc? : l?auteur au travail
>> 1.1. Pr?ambule. Auteur et ex?g?tes : la posture philologique indienne
>> 1.2. D?fense et illustration du non-dualisme ?aiva : manifestation du
>> monde et ?manation phon?matique
>> 1.3. O? l?auteur pr?f?re un ?nonc? ? un autre : ?yasya sv?tantrya?akty??
>> iti tyaktv? ?yasyonme?anime??bhy?m? iti nyar?pi guru??
>> 2. ?conomie (et po?tique) du texte : Spandak?rik? 52 et 53
>> 2.1. Spandak?rik? 52
>> 2.2. Spandak?rik? 53
>> 3. Conclusions
>> Annexe 1. Le concept de vaikhar?
>> Annexe 2. Tableaux
>> Tableau 1. unme?a-nime?a
>> Tableau 2. Les Spandak?rik? : Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte
>> Tableau 3. Spandak?rik? vv. 51-52-53 .
>>
>> Eli FRANCO. Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika
>> The Problem
>> The Dominant Paradigm in Modern Scholarship on Dharmak?rti?s Work
>> Traditional Buddhist Explanations
>> Addendum: Yam?ri on Faithfulness and Novelty in Commentaries
>>
>> https://www.academia.edu/39221550/Yam?ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram??av?rttika
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39221550%2FYam%C4%81ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram%C4%81%E1%B9%87av%C4%81rttika&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467014928&sdata=XoGxDOo6QJYDufugRlwSUhi39eZh%2BBFZ4JYHbyHQL1E%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Vincent ELTSCHINGER. From Commentary to Philosophy, or Lectio and
>> Disputatio in Indian Buddhist Commentarial Literature
>> 1. Comparing Scholasticisms
>> 2. From Lectio to Disputatio
>> 3. The Theory of Indian Buddhist Commentary
>> Conclusion
>>
>> https://www.academia.edu/39161414/From_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39161414%2FFrom_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=7RRl8pcemlCZTHJiV8ruXmBS1dz5s5Fbcw%2BdT5FGRSk%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Isabelle RATI?. For an Indian Philology of Margins. The Case of
>> Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
>> The Virtually Unexplored Field of Indian Manuscript Margins
>> What do the Margins of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts Contain?
>> Retrieving Lost Texts in the Margins of Kashmirian Manuscripts: the Case
>> of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti on the ??varapratyabhij?? Treatise
>> A Jigsaw Puzzle: Examples from Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti, Chapter 2.1
>> Manuscript Margins and the Marginalization of Texts in Medieval Kashmir:
>> the Quasi Obliteration of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti
>> On the Purpose(s) of Annotations in Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
>> A Learned Tradition: on Annotated Manuscripts Copied by Famous Kashmirian
>> Authors
>> The N?gar? ?Revolution? and the Fate of Traditional Annotations
>> Conclusion: on Margins and the Indologists? ?Embarrassment of Riches?
>> Appendix I. Utpaladeva?s ??varapratyabhij??-Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
>> Appendix II. Marginal Sources for the Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
>> Appendix III. A Few Annotated Manuscripts
>>
>> https://www.academia.edu/39195012/For_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39195012%2FFor_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=Hunyy7NBFRO7noOe1asTV0SBactQDBqNti4sFgK7BsA%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> III. ?pop?es, traditions savantes
>> Epics, Learned Traditions
>>
>> John BROCKINGTON. Regions and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts. The
>> Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata
>>
>> Judit T?RZS?K. Abhinavagupta on the Epic. Some Remarks on the
>> G?t?rthasa?graha and its M?la
>> 1. Abhinavagupta?s Bhagavadg?t?
>> 2. Questions of Author and Speaker
>> 3. Vy?sa?s Intention, Consistency and Rigour
>> 4. On Epic Irregularities
>> 5. Texts, Consistency, and Some Remarks on Indian Philology
>>
>> Claudine LE BLANC. Philologie de l??pop?e orale en Inde. Deux si?cles d??
>> inscriptions ?
>> 1. L?? oralit? ? des philologues
>> 2. ? Inscriptions ? : le texte des folkloristes
>> 3. Diss?minations : philologie, traductions, nouvelles inscriptions
>>
>> Carl W. ERNST. Disentangling the Persian Translations of Sanskrit Works
>> on Yoga
>> K?mar?pan???ik?
>> ?aw? al-?ay?t
>> ?Ayn al-?ay?t
>> Ba?r al-?ay?t
>>
>> Fabrizio SPEZIALE. ?il? or Do?a? The Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory
>> of Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts .
>>
>> IV. Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer
>> Cultural Models : Writing, Translating, Transposing
>>
>> Jean-No?l ROBERT. Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et
>> r??criture du sanscrit en chinois
>>
>> Matthew T. KAPSTEIN. Other People?s Philology. Uses of Sanskrit in Tibet
>> and China, 14th-19th Centuries
>> Appendix: The Lhasa Zhol Printery Edition of the ?Volumes of the
>> Sciences?
>> Illustrations
>>
>> https://www.academia.edu/39533867/Other_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39533867%2FOther_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=GcpTEIAxbjZEQ5ssTTqpoPo2y3rIlzfTUTXjnOcZoPc%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> J?rgen HANNEDER. The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism
>>
>> David SHULMAN. A South Indian Canon of Visible Sound
>>
>> Benedetta ZACCARELLO. Transferts et philologie d?auteur en contexte
>> indien. Remarques sur l??tude g?n?tique des manuscrits d?Aurobindo Ghose
>> 1. D?coloniser l?archive ?
>> 2. Quels auteurs ?
>> 3. Quels corpus pour quelles pratiques ?
>>
>> Index
>> ???????????????????
>> Christophe Vielle
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuclouvain.be%2Fen%2Fdirectories%2Fchristophe.vielle&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=YsOr5j6%2BZdClck0rIi5y3WCVn7w2SswMgsP73YcUftI%3D&reserved=0>
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Jun 19 09:52:23 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 09:52:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology
In-Reply-To: <CAGDOqfrRT5DDwTVrrvusK2iSqqn8D-XChy4kzVU-yAYoAJuyXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR11MB1787401108389A3AE6523564A1E50@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

For those who wish to purchase a copy, or have it ordered by their libraries, please see here:

http://www.deboccard.com/gb/category/15812-Produit-9782868030849.html


Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Antonio Ferreira-Jardim via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:20:11 AM
To: Micha?l Meyer
Cc: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology

Is this book currently available for purchase, in-print and under copyright?

If so, surely interested readers can just buy a copy or arrange for their library to do so? 50 Euro is quite reasonable! :)

On Wed., 19 Jun. 2019, 18:16 Micha?l Meyer via INDOLOGY, <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
I have not yet finished to prepare the electronic documents. They will not be publicly available until at least next week.

With best wishes,

Micha?l Meyer

Le mar. 18 juin 2019 ? 23:02, Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Is Sheldon Pollock's Introduction to this volume available anywhere?


________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:05 AM
To: Indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New reference on Indian Philology

This email originated outside Colorado College. Do not click links or attachments unless you know the content is safe.

L?espace du sens. Approches de la philologie indienne / The Space of Meaning. Approaches to Indian Philology

Silvia D?Intino & Sheldon Pollock (sous la direction de / edited by). Avec la collaboration / With the collaboration of Micha?l MEYER.
Paris, Coll?ge de France, 2018, Publications de l?Institut de Civilisation Indienne, Fasc. 84. Diffusion De Boccard. ISBN : 978-2-86803-084-9. 50 ?

https://www.college-de-france.fr/media/etudes-indiennes/UPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.college-de-france.fr%2Fmedia%2Fetudes-indiennes%2FUPL8135249676971707262_Pr__sentation_lespace_du_sens.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467004933&sdata=22gpIAdt%2FaGowi%2BQCSWQOJtP32jsj2AtwDxbieWqvLo%3D&reserved=0>

For philologists, a text is a terrain to explore in minute detail in order to trace both a genealogy and the emergence of meaning. One must examine the traditions within which the text makes sense, or against which it posits itself, so as to shed light on all that concerns its meaning: its origins, developments, forms, nuances, peculiarities. If a text?s ?real meaning? can never be singular, but instead ?the sum total of meanings attributed to [it] over the course of its history? (S. Pollock), it is only in a given cultural context that meaning takes shape. Along with its times, a text?s meaning is a function of its spaces: the universe and network within which it is reproduced or transformed. We have therefore sought here to stress the text?s anchoring in a given cultural space, and to present philological practices as so many possible approaches to this space of meaning.

(a few articles are already available online, see below the urls on Academia)

ToC

Avant-propos

Introduction
Sheldon POLLOCK. ?Indian Philology?. Edition, Interpretation, and Difference
1. The General Form of Philology
2. The Elements of Philology in the World
2.1. Edition
2.2. Interpretation
3. Indian Conformity
3.1. Indian Conformity in Edition
3.2. Indian Conformity in Interpretation
4. Indian Difference
5. Philology as the Discipline of Making Sense of Areal Texts
5.1. Pluralist Edition
5.2. Pluralist Interpretation
Summary

I. ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes
Vedic and P??inian Studies

Charles MALAMOUD. Les saisons et les eaux. Remarques sur le premier prap??haka du Taittir?ya-?ra?yaka

Silvia D?INTINO. Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a
La le?on de S?ya?a
L?ex?g?se ancienne et le d?bat du sens
Ve?ka?am?dhava, ex?g?te grammairien
Interpr?ter, dans le temps
Conclusion

Cezary GALEWICZ. The R?japur Manuscript of Bha??oji?s Vedabh??yas?ra

Madhav M. DESHPANDE. Re-Viewing the Tradition. Language, Grammar and History

Edwin GEROW. Karman. Esquisse d?une syntaxe traditionnelle de la langue sanscrite
1. Les ant?c?dents rituels et grammaticaux
2. Le courant ? philosophique ? et son int?gration dans la grammaire
3. Renou et N?ge?a

Maria Piera CANDOTTI. Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain

II. Philologie/philosophie
Philology/Philosophy

Lyne BANSAT-BOUDON. Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya
1. ?conomie d?un ?nonc? : l?auteur au travail
1.1. Pr?ambule. Auteur et ex?g?tes : la posture philologique indienne
1.2. D?fense et illustration du non-dualisme ?aiva : manifestation du monde et ?manation phon?matique
1.3. O? l?auteur pr?f?re un ?nonc? ? un autre : ?yasya sv?tantrya?akty?? iti tyaktv? ?yasyonme?anime??bhy?m? iti nyar?pi guru??
2. ?conomie (et po?tique) du texte : Spandak?rik? 52 et 53
2.1. Spandak?rik? 52
2.2. Spandak?rik? 53
3. Conclusions
Annexe 1. Le concept de vaikhar?
Annexe 2. Tableaux
Tableau 1. unme?a-nime?a
Tableau 2. Les Spandak?rik? : Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte
Tableau 3. Spandak?rik? vv. 51-52-53 .

Eli FRANCO. Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika
The Problem
The Dominant Paradigm in Modern Scholarship on Dharmak?rti?s Work
Traditional Buddhist Explanations
Addendum: Yam?ri on Faithfulness and Novelty in Commentaries
https://www.academia.edu/39221550/Yam?ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram??av?rttika<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39221550%2FYam%C4%81ri_and_the_Order_of_Chapters_in_the_Pram%C4%81%E1%B9%87av%C4%81rttika&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467014928&sdata=XoGxDOo6QJYDufugRlwSUhi39eZh%2BBFZ4JYHbyHQL1E%3D&reserved=0>

Vincent ELTSCHINGER. From Commentary to Philosophy, or Lectio and Disputatio in Indian Buddhist Commentarial Literature
1. Comparing Scholasticisms
2. From Lectio to Disputatio
3. The Theory of Indian Buddhist Commentary
Conclusion
https://www.academia.edu/39161414/From_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39161414%2FFrom_Commentary_to_Philosophy_or_Lectio_and_Disputatio_in_Indian_Buddhist_Commentarial_Literature&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=7RRl8pcemlCZTHJiV8ruXmBS1dz5s5Fbcw%2BdT5FGRSk%3D&reserved=0>

Isabelle RATI?. For an Indian Philology of Margins. The Case of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
The Virtually Unexplored Field of Indian Manuscript Margins
What do the Margins of Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts Contain?
Retrieving Lost Texts in the Margins of Kashmirian Manuscripts: the Case of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti on the ??varapratyabhij?? Treatise
A Jigsaw Puzzle: Examples from Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti, Chapter 2.1
Manuscript Margins and the Marginalization of Texts in Medieval Kashmir: the Quasi Obliteration of Utpaladeva?s Viv?ti
On the Purpose(s) of Annotations in Kashmirian Sanskrit Manuscripts
A Learned Tradition: on Annotated Manuscripts Copied by Famous Kashmirian Authors
The N?gar? ?Revolution? and the Fate of Traditional Annotations
Conclusion: on Margins and the Indologists? ?Embarrassment of Riches?
Appendix I. Utpaladeva?s ??varapratyabhij??-Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
Appendix II. Marginal Sources for the Viv?ti on ?PK 2.1.3
Appendix III. A Few Annotated Manuscripts
https://www.academia.edu/39195012/For_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39195012%2FFor_an_Indian_Philology_of_Margins_The_Case_of_Kashmirian_Sanskrit_Manuscripts&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467024920&sdata=Hunyy7NBFRO7noOe1asTV0SBactQDBqNti4sFgK7BsA%3D&reserved=0>

III. ?pop?es, traditions savantes
Epics, Learned Traditions

John BROCKINGTON. Regions and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts. The Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata

Judit T?RZS?K. Abhinavagupta on the Epic. Some Remarks on the G?t?rthasa?graha and its M?la
1. Abhinavagupta?s Bhagavadg?t?
2. Questions of Author and Speaker
3. Vy?sa?s Intention, Consistency and Rigour
4. On Epic Irregularities
5. Texts, Consistency, and Some Remarks on Indian Philology

Claudine LE BLANC. Philologie de l??pop?e orale en Inde. Deux si?cles d?? inscriptions ?
1. L?? oralit? ? des philologues
2. ? Inscriptions ? : le texte des folkloristes
3. Diss?minations : philologie, traductions, nouvelles inscriptions

Carl W. ERNST. Disentangling the Persian Translations of Sanskrit Works on Yoga
K?mar?pan???ik?
?aw? al-?ay?t
?Ayn al-?ay?t
Ba?r al-?ay?t

Fabrizio SPEZIALE. ?il? or Do?a? The Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory of Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts .

IV. Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer
Cultural Models : Writing, Translating, Transposing

Jean-No?l ROBERT. Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et r??criture du sanscrit en chinois

Matthew T. KAPSTEIN. Other People?s Philology. Uses of Sanskrit in Tibet and China, 14th-19th Centuries
Appendix: The Lhasa Zhol Printery Edition of the ?Volumes of the Sciences?
Illustrations
https://www.academia.edu/39533867/Other_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F39533867%2FOther_Peoples_Philology_Uses_of_Sanskrit_in_Tibet_and_China_14_th_-19_th_c&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=GcpTEIAxbjZEQ5ssTTqpoPo2y3rIlzfTUTXjnOcZoPc%3D&reserved=0>

J?rgen HANNEDER. The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism

David SHULMAN. A South Indian Canon of Visible Sound

Benedetta ZACCARELLO. Transferts et philologie d?auteur en contexte indien. Remarques sur l??tude g?n?tique des manuscrits d?Aurobindo Ghose
1. D?coloniser l?archive ?
2. Quels auteurs ?
3. Quels corpus pour quelles pratiques ?

Index
???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fuclouvain.be%2Fen%2Fdirectories%2Fchristophe.vielle&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C3c920c2400a24f6fadb308d6f3f60eb2%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C1%7C636964635467034913&sdata=YsOr5j6%2BZdClck0rIi5y3WCVn7w2SswMgsP73YcUftI%3D&reserved=0>
Louvain-la-Neuve



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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 19 12:21:17 2019
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 12:21:17 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Three doctoral positions in Southeast Asian epigraphy and history for DHARMA project
Message-ID: <AM0PR09MB358749FAB5D2AE6BA7776B46A5E50@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,

The EFEO is soliciting applications for three doctoral positions in Southeast Asian epigraphy and history: one for Cambodia, one for Camp? and one for Java. In all cases, knowledge of Sanskrit is a great plus.

The French announcement is available here: <https://www.efeo.fr/uploads/docs/pdf_presentation/PhD-Candidates-DHARMA-EFEO_FR.pdf>. I am attaching the English equivalent.

Please forward to colleagues in the relevant fields, and to any potentially interested students.

Thank you.

Arlo Griffiths


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jun 19 13:36:25 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 06:36:25 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfeKQZcUGFTtj-hzeLfVQvnvsEkT_y8ZLnz62fwqH4cjw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????????????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????????: ?
?????? ??????? ????: ????? ??????????: ???????

Fortunately, I have arrived in Gokula. Now where is that Krishna? Whatever
I see around me, all of that is Krishna.

???? ?????? ?????
??????? ??????? ?
?????? ?? ?? ????
???? ????? ?? ??? ??

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 01:59:50 2019
From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 19 21:59:50 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
Message-ID: <D8347818-C9BF-44B1-91CF-A5590FC045F7@gmail.com>

Hello All, 
Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us for the First Annual Conference. 
Please circulate the CFP widely. 
Thank you. 
Lavanya 


Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of 
American Academy of Indic Studies


The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly, non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at www.AAIndicStudies.org 

For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic wisdom and traditions.

The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process of postcolonialism. 

The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th 
Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020

Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with https://www.naaas.org 

Conference Proceedings: To be announced.

Lavanya Vemsani 
Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
Shawnee State University 
President, Ohio Academy of History 
Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies 
Editor-in-Chief 
American Journal of Indic Studies
Managing Editor
International Journal of Indic Religions 
Associate Editor 
-Canadian Journal of History 
-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs
http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx



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From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 03:42:11 2019
From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 09:12:11 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
In-Reply-To: <D8347818-C9BF-44B1-91CF-A5590FC045F7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHRgzy0VSCV-t4TRtgR01QriyuynxgwPLtaFpHb=sPDbDUPRhg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I must
express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed "conference,"
so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology listserve being used
to promote this event.

There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
against our colleagues in India.

The AAIS, per its website, states the reason for its existence thus: until
now, "Western" disciplines like history, philology, philosophy, etcetera
have been used to understand Indic material and are not sufficient for the
task; therefore a new academic program is necessary that uses "Indic"
knowledge systems to understand Indian material. This well-worn nativist
argument ignores two important things: first, systems of knowledge like
history, philology, philosophy, etcetera were practiced in South Asia
during the precolonial period-- a fact that many scholars of this list
demonstrate in their research-- and second, the fact that many scholars
working in so-called "Western" disciplines (because whether we work in
South Asian or other universities, we all have to work in existing
departments) actually use South Asian knowledge systems in their study of
texts, history, social phenomenon, and the like. The fact that many of us
were trained in South Asian institutions by traditionally-trained
scholars--or by non-Indian scholars well -steeped in things like nyaya,
kavyasastra, itihasa, etc.--should tell one that we do, in fact, take South
Asian knowledge systems seriously.

The AAIS's charter and mission are, in fact, anti-intellectual and built on
highly dubious arguments. Like several similar organizations that have
sprung up over the last several years with the rise of Hindutva politics,
it appropriates the language of postcolonial studies while totally
rejecting both the theoretical and ethical imperatives of postcolonial
studies. Postcolonial studies argues 1) that colonialism (and its
epistemological violence) were carried out by European *together with*
members of elite South Asian communities, 2) due to that epistemic rupture
it is no longer possible to access some kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge
or understanding, and 3) academics have a responsibility to listen to
marginalized and formerly silenced voices of history (and the present).

In contrast, the AAIS poses such vague and theoretically problematic
questions as "Would the academic presentation of the Indic civilization be
different if it had been the work of scholars who did not use Western
theories and categories?" and makes anti-historical assertions such as "The
term ?Indic? is a reference, not just to India as a modern contemporary
country, but to the civilization that has been known internationally and
historically by the river Indus. It refers to more than 5000 years of a
continuous civilization whose kernel is a unique knowledge system which is
beneficial to all humankind." The anti-historical, anti-intellectual, and
nationalist implications of this should be clear.

Most worryingly, the AAIS appears to ignore the most fundamental tenets of
postcolonial criticism: to constantly and self-reflexively locate oneself
as a scholar in institutions and dynamics of power. Groups like the AAIS
imply that the only power differential is between "Western" scholars and
"Indian" natives; doing so requires eliding or ignoring the massive and
complicated relationships of power in South Asian societies. In other
words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians" versus
"non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian knowledge
systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites that were
oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups.

This dynamic came out nowhere more vividly than on this list (and others)
after the last WSC: those of the nativist Hindutva persuasion complained
that allowing women who had suffered marginalization in the
Sanskrit-learning community to speak about that marginalization was
anti-Indian and part of a global conspiracy to malign the Indian nation. In
this case, suppressing dissent *within* the Indian community in order to
suggest that the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the
quite literal form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*.

Finally-- and I realize the seriousness of this claim-- the AAIS and
similar organizations ally with a politics that has encouraged the
marginalization, harassment, and even violence against our colleagues in
India, including colleagues on this list. The AAIS website specifically
singles out "Marxism" as one of the evils of "Western" scholarship; this is
(and has been) used as a dogwhistle to attack any left-leaning (or even
centrist) scholars working in India. A few of the AAIS board members
themselves have repeated and amplified calls for rooting out "urban
Naxals," a term that conflates left-leaning academics with Maoist rebels in
India. We are all only too aware of the real danger this kind of politics
poses for the lives and livelihoods of Indian colleagues.

I apologize for using the space of the listserve for a polemic; I am just
tired of seeing the scholarly forum which Dominik and others have worked so
hard to build used for a purpose that is directly hostile to the work of so
many of us. The AAIS presents itself as a serious, progressive voice; I am
afraid that it is anything but.

Respectfully,

Tyler Williams
University of Chicago



On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:30 AM Lavanya Vemsani via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hello All,
> Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us for
> the First Annual Conference.
> Please circulate the CFP widely.
> Thank you.
> Lavanya
>
>
> Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of
>
> American Academy of Indic Studies
>
>
> The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly,
> non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and
> students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to
> promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at
> www.AAIndicStudies.org <http://www.aaindicstudies.org>
>
> For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly
> presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We
> invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit
> their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic
> wisdom and traditions.
>
> The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the
> ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at
> large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and
> investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards
> postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal
> obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under
> consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal
> arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over
> the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process
> of postcolonialism.
>
> The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th
>
> Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020
>
> Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with https://www.naaas.org
>
> Conference Proceedings: To be announced.
>
> *Lavanya Vemsani*
> Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
> Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
> Shawnee State University
> President, *Ohio Academy of History *
> Co-founder, *American Academy of Indic Studies *
> Editor-in-Chief
> *American Journal of Indic Studies*
> Managing Editor
> *International Journal of Indic Religions *
> *Associate Editor *
> *-Canadian Journal of History *
> *-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs*
> http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr  Thu Jun 20 05:51:11 2019
From: andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr (Andrea Acri)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 05:51:11 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Anna_Radicchi=E2=80=99s_contact_details?=
Message-ID: <8A875F57-2ABF-4894-A4CB-A1EDE012484E@ephe.sorbonne.fr>

Dear colleagues,

a scholar from India is trying to get in touch with Anna Radicchi, but she does not have her contact details. Nor do I. If anyone has a current email and/or phone number, please contact me off-list.

Kind regards,

Andrea ACRI
?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, PSL University
Ma?tre de conf?rences/Assistant Professor
?tudes tantriques/Tantric Studies
Section des Sciences religieuses, Paris
Publications at: www.ephe.academia.edu/AndreaAcri<http://www.ephe.academia.edu/AndreaAcri>
www.ephe.fr<http://www.ephe.fr> | www.univ-psl.fr<http://www.univ-psl.fr>



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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 20 13:24:10 2019
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 13:24:10 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <CAM0n-bVOuxDv+FncH8K2R6bF++hTcY9mSFN-ogt_T96CPn95ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR09MB358792163704CEEFDB9BFB99A5E40@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,

It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths


________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
To: indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity

Dear All,
I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic issues and at the moment one particular question.
The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard. Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present, and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special cases to it?
The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1). Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct consonants created with such a sign.]
We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly) differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is not a full vowel ak?ara).
Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
Daniel


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From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it  Thu Jun 20 14:30:01 2019
From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 16:30:01 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Anna_Radicchi=E2=80=99s_contact_details?=
In-Reply-To: <8A875F57-2ABF-4894-A4CB-A1EDE012484E@ephe.sorbonne.fr>
Message-ID: <272F6B0A-CB98-4D9F-97CC-A173A9A3AE46@uniroma1.it>

Caro Andrea,
Prof. Anna Radicchi retired many years ago. She can be reached through her former student, Prof. Tiziana Pontillo (pontillo at unica.it <mailto:pontillo at unica.it>).

Cari saluti
Raffaele

> Il giorno 20 giu 2019, alle ore 07:51, Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto:
> 
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> a scholar from India is trying to get in touch with Anna Radicchi, but she does not have her contact details. Nor do I. If anyone has a current email and/or phone number, please contact me off-list. 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Andrea ACRI
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, PSL University 
> Ma?tre de conf?rences/Assistant Professor  
> ?tudes tantriques/Tantric Studies
> Section des Sciences religieuses, Paris
> Publications at: www.ephe.academia.edu/AndreaAcri <http://www.ephe.academia.edu/AndreaAcri>
> www.ephe.fr <http://www.ephe.fr/> | www.univ-psl.fr <http://www.univ-psl.fr/>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

Prof. Raffaele Torella
Chair of Sanskrit
Sapienza University of Rome
www.academia.edu/raffaeletorella





-- 
___________________________________________
*Il tuo?5?diventa 1000*
Fai 
crescere la tua universit?
Dona il?5?per?mille?alla Sapienza
Codice 
fiscale:?*80209930587*

https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-universita-con-il-cinque-mille 
<https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-universita-con-il-cinque-mille>



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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 14:53:56 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 20:23:56 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help needed to finalize the NirnaySagar Font project
Message-ID: <CAODNnZhVYAmUgoWV9HOs81DBj7t7AdBJHDiN8bFkUQgt8WwMjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Namaste
only 25 USD $ (1600INR)

If 1600 INR is given by 400 members I would reach my Break-even point. So
if you are unable to help with monetary terms, you can spread the message
to donate 1,600 INR in your circle.
I will distribute the fonts for free
Attached is the sample of fonts in 3 designs
Payment details
PayPal adishilapublication at gmail.com
Adishila Publication Pvt Ltd
Account Number 918020013086554
IFSC UTIB0000102

This is the last mail regarding seeking monetary help. Please excuse.


Thanks & Regards
KP


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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 15:20:10 2019
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 17:20:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR09MB358792163704CEEFDB9BFB99A5E40@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ce571f6f-16c4-38f8-2510-e2fc55547f27@gmail.com>

Dear Daniel,

I also would like to direct another, different question in case there 
are any modifications at the Standard ISO15919 possible:

The Halfnasal ? (for transliteration of ?g, ?? and ?d is available in 
all unicode-fonts, but the Halfnasal for m (for transliteration of mb 
[where m should have the same diacritic on top as ?] is missing.

For the transliteration at least of Sinhala-text we need this letter as 
part of the Unicode-fonts.

To where or whom we can direct this?


Thank you


Heiner




Am 20.06.2019 um 15:24 schrieb Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel 
> asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Many thanks, and best wishes,
>
> Arlo Griffiths
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of 
> D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
> *To:* indology
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
> Dear All,
> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were 
> involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would 
> be very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some 
> generic issues and at the moment one particular question.
> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in 
> web and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that 
> prevent us from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of 
> the standard. Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our 
> readers where we deviate from the standard, I see no problem 
> associated with this, but I may be missing something. At any rate, a 
> proliferation of idiosyncratic transliteration systems is not 
> desirable, which leads to the second set of generic issues: by whom 
> and how is the ISO standard maintained at present, and is there any 
> chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special cases to it?
> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly 
> says that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 
> Rule 1). Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman 
> characters to transliterate 1. final consonants represented in 
> historic scripts by special "halanta" character forms (instead of the 
> addition of a vir?ma sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already 
> codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but 
> we feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is 
> intuitively similar to the practice of the original script. [Not 
> directly relevant to the question at hand is that we would also 
> introduce an additional symbol for transliterating the explicit vir?ma 
> sign to handle final or conjunct consonants created with such a sign.]
> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I 
> can see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a 
> diplomatic transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some 
> cases redundantly) differentiating final vowel forms is useful not 
> only in cases where these are used as a means of text segmentation 
> (e.g. the final consonant of a verse quarter is inscribed using a 
> special form, followed by the initial consonant of the next quarter, 
> without an intervening punctuation sign but with the clear intent of 
> representing the yati in writing), but also where partially legible 
> text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a legible vowel 
> m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is desirable 
> to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is not a 
> full vowel ak?ara).
> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies 
> for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
> Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Thu Jun 20 15:33:10 2019
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 11:33:10 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR09MB358792163704CEEFDB9BFB99A5E40@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <E00C4134-D599-4123-A219-1D57D0D13BBB@berkeley.edu>

In light of the fact that Dravidian languages have both short and long e and o, it would be helpful to many scholars who use texts in Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada if Sanskrit e and o were marked with a macron (?, ?) in standard transliteration. The lack of such indication causes all sorts of problems when quoting from those languages, especially since they all often use Sanskrit words intermixed with native ones. George Hart

> On Jun 20, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Many thanks, and best wishes,
> 
> Arlo Griffiths
> 
> 
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
> To: indology
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>  
> Dear All,
> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic issues and at the moment one particular question.
> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard. Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present, and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special cases to it?
> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1). Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct consonants created with such a sign.]
> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly) differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is not a full vowel ak?ara).
> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
> Daniel
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 15:47:51 2019
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 17:47:51 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <E00C4134-D599-4123-A219-1D57D0D13BBB@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <ff58232a-3cd6-0d7f-9ab3-45341361c2fb@gmail.com>

Long e (?) and long o (?) are common also in Sinhalese and they are part 
of the ISO15919 transliteration standard and included in all 
unicode-fonts. So people can use this letters without limitation.


Am 20.06.2019 um 17:33 schrieb George Hart via INDOLOGY:
> In light of the fact that Dravidian languages have both short and long 
> e and o, it would be helpful to many scholars who use texts in Tamil, 
> Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada if Sanskrit e and o were marked with a 
> macron (?, ?) in standard transliteration. The lack of such indication 
> causes all sorts of problems when quoting from those languages, 
> especially since they all often use Sanskrit words intermixed with 
> native ones. George Hart
>
>> On Jun 20, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel 
>> asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Many thanks, and best wishes,
>>
>> Arlo Griffiths
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info 
>> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of D?niel 
>> Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info 
>> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> *Sent:*Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
>> *To:*indology
>> *Subject:*[INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>> Dear All,
>> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were 
>> involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would 
>> be very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about 
>> some generic issues and at the moment one particular question.
>> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in 
>> web and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that 
>> prevent us from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of 
>> the standard. Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our 
>> readers where we deviate from the standard, I see no problem 
>> associated with this, but I may be missing something. At any rate, a 
>> proliferation of idiosyncratic transliteration systems is not 
>> desirable, which leads to the second set of generic issues: by whom 
>> and how is the ISO standard maintained at present, and is there any 
>> chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special cases to it?
>> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly 
>> says that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 
>> Rule 1). Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman 
>> characters to transliterate 1. final consonants represented in 
>> historic scripts by special "halanta" character forms (instead of the 
>> addition of a vir?ma sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
>> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already 
>> codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but 
>> we feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is 
>> intuitively similar to the practice of the original script. [Not 
>> directly relevant to the question at hand is that we would also 
>> introduce an additional symbol for transliterating the explicit 
>> vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct consonants created with such 
>> a sign.]
>> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I 
>> can see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a 
>> diplomatic transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some 
>> cases redundantly) differentiating final vowel forms is useful not 
>> only in cases where these are used as a means of text segmentation 
>> (e.g. the final consonant of a verse quarter is inscribed using a 
>> special form, followed by the initial consonant of the next quarter, 
>> without an intervening punctuation sign but with the clear intent of 
>> representing the yati in writing), but also where partially legible 
>> text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a legible vowel 
>> m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is desirable 
>> to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is not a 
>> full vowel ak?ara).
>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my 
>> apologies for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
>> Daniel
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info 
>> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>(messages to the list's 
>> managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/>(where 
>> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 15:49:52 2019
From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 21:19:52 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR09MB358792163704CEEFDB9BFB99A5E40@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAHRgzy1McenNa2fD=KKoN+RKBN7DeW3F9avoa880jiQ4pZfiGw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear D?niel (and Arlo),

While I'm afraid that I cannot contribute any answers to your questions, I
do want to express support for your effort of finding ways to modify
ISO15919 for epigraphical and codicological material. In addition to the
issue of initial/full vowels and missing consonant glyphs in manuscripts, I
frequently run into problems with transliterating manuscript material
(usually vernacular but sometimes Sanskrit) that 1) uses multiple glyphs
for the what is ostensibly the same consonant (perhaps the result of
unstated phonological rules), or 2) in which vowel matras are used appended
to full vowel glyphs to indicate certain sounds (e.g. dipthongs). This is
in addition to the numerous challenges posed by transliterating texts
copied in the Arabic script, which represents morphological distinctions
orthographically through the use of word breaks, diacritical marks, etc.

All this to say that, should there be a discussion on proposed changes, I
would be happy to contribute (and learn from others).

Best,
Tyler

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:54 PM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel asked
> on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Many thanks, and best wishes,
>
> Arlo Griffiths
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
> *To:* indology
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>
> Dear All,
> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were
> involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be
> very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic
> issues and at the moment one particular question.
> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web
> and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us
> from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard.
> Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we
> deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may
> be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic
> transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of
> generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present,
> and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special
> cases to it?
> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says
> that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1).
> Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to
> transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by
> special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma
> sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already
> codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we
> feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively
> similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to
> the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol
> for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct
> consonants created with such a sign.]
> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can
> see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic
> transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly)
> differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these
> are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a
> verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial
> consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but
> with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where
> partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a
> legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is
> desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is
> not a full vowel ak?ara).
> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies for
> going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
> Daniel
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Thu Jun 20 16:59:59 2019
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 12:59:59 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <CAHRgzy1McenNa2fD=KKoN+RKBN7DeW3F9avoa880jiQ4pZfiGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO16XahEacS6s=D94Ka2tXA8MUQAoVfLEo1eP72xHNmqcBg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

A point of clarification: would the same document ever use both a "halant
variant" of a letter (e.g., the final n of the Kannada script) and the
standard variant followed by a vir?ma sign? I'm asking because my instinct
would be to simply represent the halant variant of a consonant C as C? (or
whatever sign you're using for the vir?ma). It's true that the final form
of the letter in Kannada doesn't "look like" a regular n with a vir?ma, but
then again the letter kh doesn't look like k + h.

I'm sure D?niel knows of it, but in case others don't, an article that Arlo
co-authored with Bob Hudson, Marc Miyake and Julian Wheatley (BEFEO 103
[2017]: 43?205) includes a discussion of adapting the ISO-15919 standards
for Pyu, according to which ?V is used for an independent vowel sign and ?
is used for the vir?ma. I have been using these conventions for diplomatic
transcription. I don't have a strong argument for or against uppercase
letters in transliteration, but here are two weak arguments against it: (1)
uppercase letters are more likely to cause problems in any automated
processing (e.g., replacements or transliteration) especially in
mixed-language text; (2) people sometimes use Western capitalization style
for transliterated text, and even though the use of this style (e.g., in
lists of bibliographic references) will almost never overlap with the
epigraphic and codicological applications D?niel has in mind, we might want
to avoid certain letters changing their meaning across use-cases. For what
it's worth, I often have text in ISO-15919 that I feed into Sanscript to be
transliterated into Indic scripts, and I always downcase the text before
applying the transliteration.

Andrew

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:50 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear D?niel (and Arlo),
>
> While I'm afraid that I cannot contribute any answers to your questions, I
> do want to express support for your effort of finding ways to modify
> ISO15919 for epigraphical and codicological material. In addition to the
> issue of initial/full vowels and missing consonant glyphs in manuscripts, I
> frequently run into problems with transliterating manuscript material
> (usually vernacular but sometimes Sanskrit) that 1) uses multiple glyphs
> for the what is ostensibly the same consonant (perhaps the result of
> unstated phonological rules), or 2) in which vowel matras are used appended
> to full vowel glyphs to indicate certain sounds (e.g. dipthongs). This is
> in addition to the numerous challenges posed by transliterating texts
> copied in the Arabic script, which represents morphological distinctions
> orthographically through the use of word breaks, diacritical marks, etc.
>
> All this to say that, should there be a discussion on proposed changes, I
> would be happy to contribute (and learn from others).
>
> Best,
> Tyler
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:54 PM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel
>> asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Many thanks, and best wishes,
>>
>> Arlo Griffiths
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
>> *To:* indology
>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>>
>> Dear All,
>> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were
>> involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be
>> very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic
>> issues and at the moment one particular question.
>> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web
>> and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us
>> from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard.
>> Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we
>> deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may
>> be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic
>> transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of
>> generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present,
>> and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special
>> cases to it?
>> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says
>> that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1).
>> Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to
>> transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by
>> special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma
>> sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
>> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already
>> codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we
>> feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively
>> similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to
>> the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol
>> for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct
>> consonants created with such a sign.]
>> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can
>> see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic
>> transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly)
>> differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these
>> are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a
>> verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial
>> consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but
>> with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where
>> partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a
>> legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is
>> desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is
>> not a full vowel ak?ara).
>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies
>> for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
>> Daniel
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jun 20 20:22:52 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 19 13:22:52 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdsDopdSXavp9fEKOXSMFQrjs2WVeJhQxj_JtRHwdpoTw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???? ???????? ????? ????????????? ?????? ?
?? ??? ?????????????????????? ? ????: ???????

The whole world is filled with Krishna, and there is nothing other than
Krishna. Don't run around to look for Krishna. He is very close to you.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From danbalogh at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 11:30:32 2019
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A1niel_Balogh?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 13:30:32 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO16XahEacS6s=D94Ka2tXA8MUQAoVfLEo1eP72xHNmqcBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM0n-bVfyPooJLCC5pZnYYLz-Qqn4BQQiJ4HY5vyDmOv8Bi7-g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All, thanks for your comments about the ISO encoding issue. In hopes
of keeping the discussion afloat, here are some responses.

Rolf Heinrich Koch's problem seems to relate to the Unicode standard and
not to ISO15919 or any other specific encoding system. I have no first-hand
knowledge, but I think the unicode consortium can be approached to
designate code points for additional Latin letters with diacritical marks;
I think, however, that this is a complicated and lengthy process that
carries little chance of success since the combination in question seems to
be needed only by a very small population of scholars. It is, however,
always possible to use a combining diacritic to generate the character m?
(or, according to ISO15919, m?). For this, use a regular m followed by the
character U+030C (floating caron) or, for the latter, U+0306 (floating
breve). Similarly, r and l with circle below (used instead of the IAST
underdot to represent vocalic r and l) can only be typed as such a
combination.

To George Hart's problem, as pointed out by Heinrich, a partial solution is
already present. ISO15919 prescribes ? and ? in Sanskrit texts/words of a
mixed corpus that includes languages where short and long e/o are
distinguished. As a nod to IAST and the widespread practice of
Sanskritists, it _allows_ e and o for these long vowels so long as they are
used in a Sanskrit-only corpus. I agree that the situation is not ideal,
but - rather than persuading Sanskritists to use ? and ? consistently - the
way to improve it may be the use of language tagging, so that any segment
of transliterated Indic text can be recognised by a computer as belonging
to a particular language.

For the issues raised by Tyler Williams: I think the first one (alternative
glyphs for the same phoneme) is beyond the scope of transliteration and
belongs either to a palaeographic description or, if machine readability
and indexability are desired, to the sphere of markup. As for the second, I
would be interested in some further details, on or off list. Are any vowel
m?tr?s other than what would normally represent an ? used in such a way?
Could you give some examples, what language, time period, and what does the
addition of an extra m?tr? signify? Arlo and I have been thinking about a
way of representing one particular case of this, and if there are other
related phenomena, then knowing about them would help us propose a solution
that can be extended to those.

To Andrew Ollett's caution that using uppercase Latin letters for final
consonant forms may not be better than adding the transliteration
equivalent of a vir?ma (and likewise, uppercase for independent vowels
versus a special marker attached to the transliterated vowel), I can only
say that I also have no strong argument for this usage. The weak arguments
for would run like this: 1. better grapheme-to-grapheme matching between
the original script and the transliteration; and 2. actually, easier
automated processing in some cases at least, e.g. a basic case insensitive
search would still find the expected results in a transliterated text that
uses uppercase for these purposes, while the search algorithm would need to
be devised to ignore the additional marks for independent vowel and vir?ma.
The same applies to downcasing the text for conversion to Devanagari - it
should be no problem. I should add that we do want to retain a special
vir?ma equivalent for glyphs with an explicit vir?ma, though this is also
slightly problematic, e.g. in case of the "proto-vir?ma" comprised of a
small dash or arch on top of a subscript final consonant form

The very best to everyone,
Daniel

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> A point of clarification: would the same document ever use both a "halant
> variant" of a letter (e.g., the final n of the Kannada script) and the
> standard variant followed by a vir?ma sign? I'm asking because my instinct
> would be to simply represent the halant variant of a consonant C as C? (or
> whatever sign you're using for the vir?ma). It's true that the final form
> of the letter in Kannada doesn't "look like" a regular n with a vir?ma, but
> then again the letter kh doesn't look like k + h.
>
> I'm sure D?niel knows of it, but in case others don't, an article that
> Arlo co-authored with Bob Hudson, Marc Miyake and Julian Wheatley (BEFEO
> 103 [2017]: 43?205) includes a discussion of adapting the ISO-15919
> standards for Pyu, according to which ?V is used for an independent vowel
> sign and ? is used for the vir?ma. I have been using these conventions for
> diplomatic transcription. I don't have a strong argument for or against
> uppercase letters in transliteration, but here are two weak arguments
> against it: (1) uppercase letters are more likely to cause problems in any
> automated processing (e.g., replacements or transliteration) especially in
> mixed-language text; (2) people sometimes use Western capitalization style
> for transliterated text, and even though the use of this style (e.g., in
> lists of bibliographic references) will almost never overlap with the
> epigraphic and codicological applications D?niel has in mind, we might want
> to avoid certain letters changing their meaning across use-cases. For what
> it's worth, I often have text in ISO-15919 that I feed into Sanscript to be
> transliterated into Indic scripts, and I always downcase the text before
> applying the transliteration.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:50 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear D?niel (and Arlo),
>>
>> While I'm afraid that I cannot contribute any answers to your questions,
>> I do want to express support for your effort of finding ways to modify
>> ISO15919 for epigraphical and codicological material. In addition to the
>> issue of initial/full vowels and missing consonant glyphs in manuscripts, I
>> frequently run into problems with transliterating manuscript material
>> (usually vernacular but sometimes Sanskrit) that 1) uses multiple glyphs
>> for the what is ostensibly the same consonant (perhaps the result of
>> unstated phonological rules), or 2) in which vowel matras are used appended
>> to full vowel glyphs to indicate certain sounds (e.g. dipthongs). This is
>> in addition to the numerous challenges posed by transliterating texts
>> copied in the Arabic script, which represents morphological distinctions
>> orthographically through the use of word breaks, diacritical marks, etc.
>>
>> All this to say that, should there be a discussion on proposed changes, I
>> would be happy to contribute (and learn from others).
>>
>> Best,
>> Tyler
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:54 PM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel
>>> asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> Many thanks, and best wishes,
>>>
>>> Arlo Griffiths
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>>> D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
>>> *To:* indology
>>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were
>>> involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be
>>> very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic
>>> issues and at the moment one particular question.
>>> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web
>>> and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us
>>> from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard.
>>> Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we
>>> deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may
>>> be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic
>>> transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of
>>> generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present,
>>> and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special
>>> cases to it?
>>> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says
>>> that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1).
>>> Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to
>>> transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by
>>> special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma
>>> sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
>>> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already
>>> codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we
>>> feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively
>>> similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to
>>> the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol
>>> for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct
>>> consonants created with such a sign.]
>>> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can
>>> see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic
>>> transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly)
>>> differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these
>>> are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a
>>> verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial
>>> consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but
>>> with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where
>>> partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a
>>> legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is
>>> desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is
>>> not a full vowel ak?ara).
>>> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies
>>> for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
>>> Daniel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl  Fri Jun 21 13:04:07 2019
From: v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl (Bijlert, V.A. van)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 13:04:07 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] literature
Message-ID: <97dd03dba3ff4797a251592ddcdc9969@vu.nl>

Dear colleagues,
A colleague of mine has the following question:
Do you know academic publications (articles, book chapters, books) that trace literary motifs in cosmogonic myths diachronically from the Rig Veda to the Puranas?
Is there anyone who could suggest recent titles? Articles, books?
On behalf of my colleague many thanks
Regards

Victor A. van Bijlert
Lecturer Indian religions and Sanskrit
Faculty of Religion and Theology, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
+31613184203



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From kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Jun 21 13:23:26 2019
From: kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu (McGrath, Kevin)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 13:23:26 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vyasa Redux, Narrative in Epic Mahabharata ...
Message-ID: <DM5PR07MB27954761AB4CAD1E114D65358DE70@DM5PR07MB2795.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

  Dear Colleagues,


I would like to announce the release of a new book, 'Vyasa Redux, Narrative in Epic Mahabharata', published by Anthem Press in London.


This follows in the concepts and methods developed by my previous works that interpret the epic poem; some of these titles are listed below.


With best wishes, from,


   Kevin McGrath.


The Sanskrit Hero, Kar?a in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2004);
Str?, Women in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2009);
Jaya, Performance in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2011);
Heroic K???a, Friendship in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2013);
Arjuna P???ava, The Double Hero in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2016);
R?ja Yudhi??hira, Kingship in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2017);
Bh??ma Devavrata, Authority in Epic Mah?bh?rata (2018).


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Fri Jun 21 13:32:55 2019
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 13:32:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] literature
In-Reply-To: <97dd03dba3ff4797a251592ddcdc9969@vu.nl>
Message-ID: <20190621153426.3dcc79153de74c50704ac2da@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Victor,

this an extremely vast subject, but a good starting point could be:
N. N. Bhattacharyya, History of Indian Cosmogonical Ideas. Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1971.
It is useful in collecting references to primary texts and presenting a good number of various cosmogony models, but less satisfactory in their interpretation.

A collection of Kuiper?s essays (F. B. J. Kuiper, Ancient Indian cosmogony, ed. John Irwin, New Delhi: Vikas Publ. House, 1983) is very good, but deals mainly with Vedic material. 

Specifically for pur??ic cosmogony see:
Madeleine Biardeau,  ?tudes de mythologie hindoue (III). I. Cosmogonies pur?niques (suite),  Bulletin de l'?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient Ann?e 58 (1971): 17-89.

There are plenty of more special studies, most of them are listed here:
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0068.xml

But as far as I know, they do not "trace literary motifs in cosmogonic myths diachronically".

Best,
Lubomir




On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:04:07 +0000
"Bijlert, V.A. van via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
> A colleague of mine has the following question:
> Do you know academic publications (articles, book chapters, books) that trace literary motifs in cosmogonic myths diachronically from the Rig Veda to the Puranas?
> Is there anyone who could suggest recent titles? Articles, books?
> On behalf of my colleague many thanks
> Regards
> 
> Victor A. van Bijlert
> Lecturer Indian religions and Sanskrit
> Faculty of Religion and Theology, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
> +31613184203
> 




From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Fri Jun 21 13:50:09 2019
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 15:50:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] literature
In-Reply-To: <20190621153426.3dcc79153de74c50704ac2da@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbqkaOS5MQVMLG4ZGPMw+Zs1KivCv0xcA-EJ8xoR_pT+Zg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Victor,

I analyse many cosmogonic motives in the Rgveda and, in a diachronic
approach, in the later Sanskrit texts (Atharvaveda, ?atapatha, early
Upanisads) in my books: "Fire and Cognition in the Rgveda" and "Fire, Death
and Philosophy. A History of Ancient Indian Thinking".

Best wishes,

Joanna

---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


pt., 21 cze 2019 o 15:33 Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> Dear Victor,
>
> this an extremely vast subject, but a good starting point could be:
> N. N. Bhattacharyya, History of Indian Cosmogonical Ideas. Delhi:
> Munshiram Manoharlal, 1971.
> It is useful in collecting references to primary texts and presenting a
> good number of various cosmogony models, but less satisfactory in their
> interpretation.
>
> A collection of Kuiper?s essays (F. B. J. Kuiper, Ancient Indian
> cosmogony, ed. John Irwin, New Delhi: Vikas Publ. House, 1983) is very
> good, but deals mainly with Vedic material.
>
> Specifically for pur??ic cosmogony see:
> Madeleine Biardeau,  ?tudes de mythologie hindoue (III). I. Cosmogonies
> pur?niques (suite),  Bulletin de l'?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient Ann?e
> 58 (1971): 17-89.
>
> There are plenty of more special studies, most of them are listed here:
>
> https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0068.xml
>
> But as far as I know, they do not "trace literary motifs in cosmogonic
> myths diachronically".
>
> Best,
> Lubomir
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:04:07 +0000
> "Bijlert, V.A. van via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> > A colleague of mine has the following question:
> > Do you know academic publications (articles, book chapters, books) that
> trace literary motifs in cosmogonic myths diachronically from the Rig Veda
> to the Puranas?
> > Is there anyone who could suggest recent titles? Articles, books?
> > On behalf of my colleague many thanks
> > Regards
> >
> > Victor A. van Bijlert
> > Lecturer Indian religions and Sanskrit
> > Faculty of Religion and Theology, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
> > +31613184203
> >
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun 21 14:45:22 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 07:45:22 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeZt7irtooVKsqXmZ_Ef1HEzHV3jKE6o-Y2iWxyb7dgZg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???????? ?????: ??????? ????????: ?
??????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???????

That Krishna is like sky that exists everywhere. I recognize his touch in
the mountains, trees, blades of grass and in the water.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From reimann at berkeley.edu  Fri Jun 21 20:43:13 2019
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 13:43:13 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] literature
In-Reply-To: <97dd03dba3ff4797a251592ddcdc9969@vu.nl>
Message-ID: <bad70ac9-7c6e-f119-05d6-861484c8a72b@berkeley.edu>

Hi Victor,

This book should help:

Bhattacharji, Sukumari. 1970. /The Indian Theogony: A Comparative Study 
of Indian Mythology from the Vedas to the Pur??as/. London: Cambridge 
University Press.

Regards,

Luis

_____


On 6/21/2019 6:04 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> A colleague of mine has the following question:
>
> Do you know academic publications (articles, book chapters, books) 
> that trace literary motifs in cosmogonic myths diachronically from the 
> Rig Veda to the Puranas?
>
> Is there anyone who could suggest recent titles? Articles, books?
>
> On behalf of my colleague many thanks
>
> Regards
>
> Victor A. van Bijlert
>
> Lecturer Indian religions and Sanskrit
>
> Faculty of Religion and Theology, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
>
> +31613184203
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Fri Jun 21 21:11:04 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 19 22:11:04 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzeZt7irtooVKsqXmZ_Ef1HEzHV3jKE6o-Y2iWxyb7dgZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070563CD-A792-481C-901C-C328C265E256@btinternet.com>

I just want to say how much I enjoy Madhav?s verses. Seeing them each day is a little treat.

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK



> On 21 Jun 2019, at 15:45, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Continuing my Krishna verses
> 
> ???????? ?????: ??????? ????????: ?
> ??????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???????
> 
> That Krishna is like sky that exists everywhere.  I recognize his touch in the mountains, trees, blades of grass and in the water.
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> 
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From bill.m.mak at gmail.com  Fri Jun 21 22:36:03 2019
From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 07:36:03 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
Message-ID: <0C18152B-6859-49E6-B5A6-B734A04CAFC3@gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I wonder if anyone could point me to any recent research on the history of Brahm? as a deity in early Vedic (pre-Buddhist) sources. I am aware of Bailey?s The mythology of Brahm?, where he described his origin as the apotheosization of the brahm? priest in the ?rauta sacrifice. I am also aware of Thieme?s very thorough study on the Br?hman in his Kleine Schriften (Teil I), where the the original senses and etymology as in RV are discussed. I am however still somewhat puzzled about the presence of Brahm? as a deity in the early Vedic sa?hit?s.

This puzzle came about when I was going through the list of nak?atras in all the Vedic sources, which give either 27 or 28. The difference between 27 and 28 lies in the nak?atra Abhijit, which is always associated with Brahm?. If Brahm? has a late origin, it is likely then an interpolation, and the 28-nak?atra system may also likely postdate the 27 one. But before I proceed on this line of analysis, I would appreciate it if anyone could enlighten me on Brahm? as an deity in the early Vedic sources, along with the most updated references on studies on the early Vedic deities.

Best regards,

Bill Mak


-- 
Bill M. Mak

Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto
Japan

[from Oct 2019]
Needham Research Institute,
8 Sylvester Road,
Cambridge, U.K.


copies of my publications may be found at:
http://www.billmak.com <http://www.billmak.com/>
http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak



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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sat Jun 22 03:47:20 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 09:17:20 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSBBIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGFib3V0IHdyaXRpbmcg4KSo4KS/4KSw4KWN4KWg4KSk4KS/IG9yIOCkqOCkv+CksOClg+CkpOCkvyBpbiBEZXZhbmFnYXJp?=
Message-ID: <CAODNnZjUfH3C-fgZGD6PAwsWQ3NYZbWXcqRifiymfxpWkCz0Zw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all

I was doing a small research wchich is the correct method to write the
vowel ? preceeded by ?? consonant. I  have checked in the old manuscripts
where I could only see ?????? and never ???????. The later is widely used
in modern days and in all the fonts. But I don't understand how can we have
conjunct to a vowel. After consulting n number of MSS, consequently, I
strongly believe the former is correct. However if any scholar would
recomend any other options I would be grateful to know.  Thanks
And here is the difference I have made in Rgveda

[image: image.png]


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sat Jun 22 04:05:46 2019
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 09:35:46 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0JQSBxdWVzdGlvbiBhYm91dCB3cml0aW5nIOCkqOCkv+CksOCljeCloOCkpOCkvyBvciDgpKjgpL/gpLDgpYPgpKTgpL8gaW4gRGV2YW5hZ2FyaQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZjUfH3C-fgZGD6PAwsWQ3NYZbWXcqRifiymfxpWkCz0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZg7MBLwNEioiZ4P1jO4_6JKE2PXUN61Fea0sfJbYKnoBw@mail.gmail.com>

I have also found interesting vereses while research


*??? ??????????? ???? ????????? ???????*
*?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????*

*???????? ??????????? ???? ???????????*
*???????????????????? ????????????? ?????*

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 9:17 AM Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear all
>
> I was doing a small research wchich is the correct method to write the
> vowel ? preceeded by ?? consonant. I  have checked in the old manuscripts
> where I could only see ?????? and never ???????. The later is widely used
> in modern days and in all the fonts. But I don't understand how can we have
> conjunct to a vowel. After consulting n number of MSS, consequently, I
> strongly believe the former is correct. However if any scholar would
> recomend any other options I would be grateful to know.  Thanks
> And here is the difference I have made in Rgveda
>
> [image: image.png]
>


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 22 06:35:11 2019
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 06:35:11 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gQSBxdWVzdGlvbiBhYm91dCB3cml0aW5nIOCkqOCkv+CksOCljeCloOCkpOCkvyBvciDgpKjgpL/gpLDgpYPgpKTgpL8gaW4gRGV2YW5hZ2FyaQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZg7MBLwNEioiZ4P1jO4_6JKE2PXUN61Fea0sfJbYKnoBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR09MB3587D221D3938DD152E641A8A5E60@AM0PR09MB3587.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Krishnaprasad,

Having observed precisely the same phenomenon in all manuscripts (written in Oriya script) we collated for our edition of ?r?dhara's Vih?h?dikarmapa?jik?, Dr. Shilpa Sumant and myself decided to edit with the spelling ??????. See for example line 9 on the attached extract from p. 33 of our book published last year. At least in Orissa, where our text was composed, the explanation must be connected with the fact that the word would be pronounced nirruti, in other words (the Oriya equivalent of) ?? is perceived as equivalent to ????. I would guess a similar explanation will apply in the sources you are looking at.

??? ???????

Arlo Griffiths







________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2019 4:05 AM
To: Indology; bvparishat at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] A question about writing ??????? or ?????? in Devanagari

I have also found interesting vereses while research


??? ??????????? ???? ????????? ???????
?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????

???????? ??????????? ???? ???????????
???????????????????? ????????????? ?????

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 9:17 AM Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com<mailto:krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear all

I was doing a small research wchich is the correct method to write the vowel ? preceeded by ?? consonant. I  have checked in the old manuscripts where I could only see ?????? and never ???????. The later is widely used in modern days and in all the fonts. But I don't understand how can we have conjunct to a vowel. After consulting n number of MSS, consequently, I strongly believe the former is correct. However if any scholar would recomend any other options I would be grateful to know.  Thanks
And here is the difference I have made in Rgveda

[image.png]


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Sat Jun 22 09:05:52 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 09:05:52 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <0C18152B-6859-49E6-B5A6-B734A04CAFC3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD29496-4B82-4546-97F7-69D53FBF8C31@uclouvain.be>

Dear Bill,
Maybe there is something in J. Gonda's work
Praj?pati's relations with Brahman, B?haspati and Brahm?, Amsterdam: North Holland Publishing Company, 1989 (Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, Afd. Letterkunde)
http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/DL/publications/PU00010269.pdf
Best wishes
Christophe

Le 22 juin 2019 ? 00:36, Bill Mak via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Dear colleagues,

I wonder if anyone could point me to any recent research on the history of Brahm? as a deity in early Vedic (pre-Buddhist) sources. I am aware of Bailey?s The mythology of Brahm?, where he described his origin as the apotheosization of the brahm? priest in the ?rauta sacrifice. I am also aware of Thieme?s very thorough study on the Br?hman in his Kleine Schriften (Teil I), where the the original senses and etymology as in RV are discussed. I am however still somewhat puzzled about the presence of Brahm? as a deity in the early Vedic sa?hit?s.

This puzzle came about when I was going through the list of nak?atras in all the Vedic sources, which give either 27 or 28. The difference between 27 and 28 lies in the nak?atra Abhijit, which is always associated with Brahm?. If Brahm? has a late origin, it is likely then an interpolation, and the 28-nak?atra system may also likely postdate the 27 one. But before I proceed on this line of analysis, I would appreciate it if anyone could enlighten me on Brahm? as an deity in the early Vedic sources, along with the most updated references on studies on the early Vedic deities.

Best regards,

Bill Mak


--
Bill M. Mak

Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto
Japan

[from Oct 2019]
Needham Research Institute,
8 Sylvester Road,
Cambridge, U.K.


copies of my publications may be found at:
http://www.billmak.com<http://www.billmak.com/>
http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun 22 13:46:36 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 06:46:36 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcefVUc=uH8WS8ZyiU7zdahkUkWrbQU3QvFPctHEtGGiA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?????? ?????? ????????: ??????? ??????? ?????? ?
???????? ???????? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ???????

O Krishna, in every breath, there is your assurance, and in every touch,
your hand is there. Whatever I do and consume, it is all enlivened by you.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From jan.kucera at matfyz.cz  Sat Jun 22 16:16:09 2019
From: jan.kucera at matfyz.cz (jan.kucera at matfyz.cz)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 19 09:16:09 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR07MB4637103C2064D895BC2257FFBEE60@VI1PR07MB4637.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <161227143328.23782.12058563429242287756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,

since this is my first post in the mailing list, I should probably say that I have been a student of Tamil at the Charles University for some time now, as well as computing science, and it is my pleasure getting to know everyone in this list.

As a disclaimer for the discussion below, I am a member of the Unicode Consortium and participating in the corresponding ISO/IEC 10646 standard for encoding. I am happy to work with anyone and submit proposals for encoding if needed. While sometimes the process is indeed complicated and lengthy when there are controversies or insufficient evidence, some of the proposals get through fairly quickly. That said, lack of font support has never been a convincing argument for encoding, and I am pretty sure no precomposed characters that can already be composed with combining diacritical marks will be accepted. I am happy to add precomposed glyphs to existing fonts you may be using though, feel free to contact me offline.

As for ISO15919, that standard is now undergoing periodical review every 5 years, the next one will be in 2022. Again, I would be happy to submit comments to the standard if there is a consensus.

D?niel: Unfortunately I can't support making the standard case sensitive. The strong argument there is compatibility - suddenly everyone conforming to the standard will become non-conforming. However, I don't see how you transliterating into Latin script with casing would be non-conforming to the standard. The standard says "casing doesn't matter", not "must be lowercase'. It is just that any automated processing of the text that conforms to the standard wouldn't see a difference, and it might not round-trip (the standard already points out in Annex F that the round-trip situation is not great anyway). As noted by Andrew Ollett, lowercasing is what many algorithms (sadly) use for case insensitive processing. For that reason for example, Unicode never allows a new lowercase version to be encoded as a casing pair to an existing uppercase latter.

Rolf Heinrich Koch: As D?niel noted, combining diacritics is the correct way to go in this case. If that is cumbersome to input, a keyboard layout with such keys can be created (again, contact me offline if anyone was interested in that).

George Hart: I agree the situation is unfortunate, but also that it is unreasonable to expect all Sanskritists to change their practice. I believe our Sanskrit textbooks (by prof. Zbavitel as well as by prof. Vacek) used ? and ? for example. You can have a font that shows the macrons over normal e and o if and only if the text language is set to Sanskrit. When merging data from two languages I am afraid the best thing to do will be on your side, to pre-process the Sanskrit text before merging.

Tyler Williams: Indeed glyph variants are higher-level text features that wouldn't be typically encoded in plain text. You can for example use OpenType features to achieve the desired rendering in the native script. I would be interested in seeing any inscriptions with non-standard orthography that you might have troubles typesetting. I am not aware of any standard that would be covering these in transliteration though

Hope this helps and best regards,
Jan Ku?era

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >
Sent: 21 June 2019 13:30
To: indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity

Dear All, thanks for your comments about the ISO encoding issue. In hopes of keeping the discussion afloat, here are some responses.

Rolf Heinrich Koch's problem seems to relate to the Unicode standard and not to ISO15919 or any other specific encoding system. I have no first-hand knowledge, but I think the unicode consortium can be approached to designate code points for additional Latin letters with diacritical marks; I think, however, that this is a complicated and lengthy process that carries little chance of success since the combination in question seems to be needed only by a very small population of scholars. It is, however, always possible to use a combining diacritic to generate the character m? (or, according to ISO15919, m?). For this, use a regular m followed by the character U+030C (floating caron) or, for the latter, U+0306 (floating breve). Similarly, r and l with circle below (used instead of the IAST underdot to represent vocalic r and l) can only be typed as such a combination.

To George Hart's problem, as pointed out by Heinrich, a partial solution is already present. ISO15919 prescribes ? and ? in Sanskrit texts/words of a mixed corpus that includes languages where short and long e/o are distinguished. As a nod to IAST and the widespread practice of Sanskritists, it _allows_ e and o for these long vowels so long as they are used in a Sanskrit-only corpus. I agree that the situation is not ideal, but - rather than persuading Sanskritists to use ? and ? consistently - the way to improve it may be the use of language tagging, so that any segment of transliterated Indic text can be recognised by a computer as belonging to a particular language.

For the issues raised by Tyler Williams: I think the first one (alternative glyphs for the same phoneme) is beyond the scope of transliteration and belongs either to a palaeographic description or, if machine readability and indexability are desired, to the sphere of markup. As for the second, I would be interested in some further details, on or off list. Are any vowel m?tr?s other than what would normally represent an ? used in such a way? Could you give some examples, what language, time period, and what does the addition of an extra m?tr? signify? Arlo and I have been thinking about a way of representing one particular case of this, and if there are other related phenomena, then knowing about them would help us propose a solution that can be extended to those.

To Andrew Ollett's caution that using uppercase Latin letters for final consonant forms may not be better than adding the transliteration equivalent of a vir?ma (and likewise, uppercase for independent vowels versus a special marker attached to the transliterated vowel), I can only say that I also have no strong argument for this usage. The weak arguments for would run like this: 1. better grapheme-to-grapheme matching between the original script and the transliteration; and 2. actually, easier automated processing in some cases at least, e.g. a basic case insensitive search would still find the expected results in a transliterated text that uses uppercase for these purposes, while the search algorithm would need to be devised to ignore the additional marks for independent vowel and vir?ma. The same applies to downcasing the text for conversion to Devanagari - it should be no problem. I should add that we do want to retain a special vir?ma equivalent for glyphs with an explicit vir?ma, though this is also slightly problematic, e.g. in case of the "proto-vir?ma" comprised of a small dash or arch on top of a subscript final consonant form

The very best to everyone,
Daniel

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear colleagues,

A point of clarification: would the same document ever use both a "halant variant" of a letter (e.g., the final n of the Kannada script) and the standard variant followed by a vir?ma sign? I'm asking because my instinct would be to simply represent the halant variant of a consonant C as C? (or whatever sign you're using for the vir?ma). It's true that the final form of the letter in Kannada doesn't "look like" a regular n with a vir?ma, but then again the letter kh doesn't look like k + h.

I'm sure D?niel knows of it, but in case others don't, an article that Arlo co-authored with Bob Hudson, Marc Miyake and Julian Wheatley (BEFEO 103 [2017]: 43?205) includes a discussion of adapting the ISO-15919 standards for Pyu, according to which ?V is used for an independent vowel sign and ? is used for the vir?ma. I have been using these conventions for diplomatic transcription. I don't have a strong argument for or against uppercase letters in transliteration, but here are two weak arguments against it: (1) uppercase letters are more likely to cause problems in any automated processing (e.g., replacements or transliteration) especially in mixed-language text; (2) people sometimes use Western capitalization style for transliterated text, and even though the use of this style (e.g., in lists of bibliographic references) will almost never overlap with the epigraphic and codicological applications D?niel has in mind, we might want to avoid certain letters changing their meaning across use-cases. For what it's worth, I often have text in ISO-15919 that I feed into Sanscript to be transliterated into Indic scripts, and I always downcase the text before applying the transliteration.

Andrew

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:50 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear D?niel (and Arlo),

While I'm afraid that I cannot contribute any answers to your questions, I do want to express support for your effort of finding ways to modify ISO15919 for epigraphical and codicological material. In addition to the issue of initial/full vowels and missing consonant glyphs in manuscripts, I frequently run into problems with transliterating manuscript material (usually vernacular but sometimes Sanskrit) that 1) uses multiple glyphs for the what is ostensibly the same consonant (perhaps the result of unstated phonological rules), or 2) in which vowel matras are used appended to full vowel glyphs to indicate certain sounds (e.g. dipthongs). This is in addition to the numerous challenges posed by transliterating texts copied in the Arabic script, which represents morphological distinctions orthographically through the use of word breaks, diacritical marks, etc.

All this to say that, should there be a discussion on proposed changes, I would be happy to contribute (and learn from others).

Best,
Tyler

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:54 PM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear colleagues,

It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel asked on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks, and best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths


________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
To: indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity

Dear All,
I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic issues and at the moment one particular question.
The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard. Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present, and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special cases to it?
The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1). Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct consonants created with such a sign.]
We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly) differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is not a full vowel ak?ara).
Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies for going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
Daniel
_______________________________________________
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun 23 14:00:36 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 19 07:00:36 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcP-zcU-==C92TEQyccXXdV6NX8PcOCp0AZfvYn5VA2gw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????????? ????????? ???????? ???????: ?
???????? ?? ??????????? ??? ???????? ???????

That creator of the world, sustainer of the world, lord of the world and
the pleaser of all, he entered the space in my heart, and he brought me,
the uncontrolled, under his control.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From danbalogh at gmail.com  Sun Jun 23 15:43:04 2019
From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A1niel_Balogh?=)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 19 17:43:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
In-Reply-To: <5d0e547a.1c69fb81.7e9da.df05SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAM0n-bUQJ4RGvs2e7G7fBSzs-Xy2SUsRh26jXnSAyDv0sg4GNg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jan, thanks a lot for your comments and for your offer of help. I am
delighted to learn that ISO15919 is periodically reviewed. I'm also glad
that you don't consider the use of uppercase for a particular purpose to be
strictly non-conformant to the standard. I think there is an important line
of reasoning there, and would like to note in addition that - if we adopt
this notation after all - we would not be suggesting the modification of
the standard as a whole, but rather the addition of an option to the
standard, for use in specific situations where certain aspects of the
original orthography are desired to be retained. It seems to me that if
such an option were to be added to the standard, that would not make all
previously conformant texts non-conformant. I see this as largely analogous
to the option of strict/simplified nasalisation, where the strict option
actually involves a normalisation of orthography and precludes
round-tripping as far as spelling is concerned [?????? > hi?d? > ?????],
while the simplified option prioritises orthography versus phonetic
transcription and allows more accurate round-tripping. Would it not be
possible to add another option to the standard to allow for the distinction
of initial vowels and final consonants (whether through the use of
capitalisation, additional marker characters or a combination of both), and
thus enable accurate round-tripping (pending, of course, the creation of
conversion routines supporting this notation) in cases where an original
document uses these in a way different from "standard" orthography?
All the best,
Daniel

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 18:16, Jan Kucera via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
>
>
> since this is my first post in the mailing list, I should probably say
> that I have been a student of Tamil at the Charles University for some time
> now, as well as computing science, and it is my pleasure getting to know
> everyone in this list.
>
>
>
> As a disclaimer for the discussion below, I am a member of the Unicode
> Consortium and participating in the corresponding ISO/IEC 10646 standard
> for encoding. I am happy to work with anyone and submit proposals for
> encoding if needed. While sometimes the process is indeed complicated and
> lengthy when there are controversies or insufficient evidence, some of the
> proposals get through fairly quickly. That said, lack of font support has
> never been a convincing argument for encoding, and I am pretty sure no
> precomposed characters that can already be composed with combining
> diacritical marks will be accepted. I am happy to add precomposed glyphs to
> existing fonts you may be using though, feel free to contact me offline.
>
>
>
> As for ISO15919, that standard is now undergoing periodical review every 5
> years, the next one will be in 2022. Again, I would be happy to submit
> comments to the standard if there is a consensus.
>
>
>
> D?niel: Unfortunately I can't support making the standard case sensitive.
> The strong argument there is compatibility - suddenly everyone conforming
> to the standard will become non-conforming. However, I don't see how you
> transliterating into Latin script with casing would be non-conforming to
> the standard. The standard says "casing doesn't matter", not "must be
> lowercase'. It is just that any automated processing of the text that
> conforms to the standard wouldn't see a difference, and it might not
> round-trip (the standard already points out in Annex F that the round-trip
> situation is not great anyway). As noted by Andrew Ollett, lowercasing is
> what many algorithms (sadly) use for case insensitive processing. For that
> reason for example, Unicode never allows a new lowercase version to be
> encoded as a casing pair to an existing uppercase latter.
>
>
>
> Rolf Heinrich Koch: As D?niel noted, combining diacritics is the correct
> way to go in this case. If that is cumbersome to input, a keyboard layout
> with such keys can be created (again, contact me offline if anyone was
> interested in that).
>
>
>
> George Hart: I agree the situation is unfortunate, but also that it is
> unreasonable to expect all Sanskritists to change their practice. I believe
> our Sanskrit textbooks (by prof. Zbavitel as well as by prof. Vacek) used ?
> and ? for example. You can have a font that shows the macrons over normal e
> and o if and only if the text language is set to Sanskrit. When merging
> data from two languages I am afraid the best thing to do will be on your
> side, to pre-process the Sanskrit text before merging.
>
>
>
> Tyler Williams: Indeed glyph variants are higher-level text features that
> wouldn't be typically encoded in plain text. You can for example use
> OpenType features to achieve the desired rendering in the native script. I
> would be interested in seeing any inscriptions with non-standard
> orthography that you might have troubles typesetting. I am not aware of any
> standard that would be covering these in transliteration though
>
>
>
> Hope this helps and best regards,
>
> Jan Ku?era
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
>
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of D?niel
> Balogh via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >
>
> Sent: 21 June 2019 13:30
>
> To: indology
>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>
>
>
> Dear All, thanks for your comments about the ISO encoding issue. In hopes
> of keeping the discussion afloat, here are some responses.
>
>
>
> Rolf Heinrich Koch's problem seems to relate to the Unicode standard and
> not to ISO15919 or any other specific encoding system. I have no first-hand
> knowledge, but I think the unicode consortium can be approached to
> designate code points for additional Latin letters with diacritical marks;
> I think, however, that this is a complicated and lengthy process that
> carries little chance of success since the combination in question seems to
> be needed only by a very small population of scholars. It is, however,
> always possible to use a combining diacritic to generate the character m?
> (or, according to ISO15919, m?). For this, use a regular m followed by the
> character U+030C (floating caron) or, for the latter, U+0306 (floating
> breve). Similarly, r and l with circle below (used instead of the IAST
> underdot to represent vocalic r and l) can only be typed as such a
> combination.
>
>
>
> To George Hart's problem, as pointed out by Heinrich, a partial solution
> is already present. ISO15919 prescribes ? and ? in Sanskrit texts/words of
> a mixed corpus that includes languages where short and long e/o are
> distinguished. As a nod to IAST and the widespread practice of
> Sanskritists, it _allows_ e and o for these long vowels so long as they are
> used in a Sanskrit-only corpus. I agree that the situation is not ideal,
> but - rather than persuading Sanskritists to use ? and ? consistently - the
> way to improve it may be the use of language tagging, so that any segment
> of transliterated Indic text can be recognised by a computer as belonging
> to a particular language.
>
>
>
> For the issues raised by Tyler Williams: I think the first one
> (alternative glyphs for the same phoneme) is beyond the scope of
> transliteration and belongs either to a palaeographic description or, if
> machine readability and indexability are desired, to the sphere of markup.
> As for the second, I would be interested in some further details, on or off
> list. Are any vowel m?tr?s other than what would normally represent an ?
> used in such a way? Could you give some examples, what language, time
> period, and what does the addition of an extra m?tr? signify? Arlo and I
> have been thinking about a way of representing one particular case of this,
> and if there are other related phenomena, then knowing about them would
> help us propose a solution that can be extended to those.
>
>
>
> To Andrew Ollett's caution that using uppercase Latin letters for final
> consonant forms may not be better than adding the transliteration
> equivalent of a vir?ma (and likewise, uppercase for independent vowels
> versus a special marker attached to the transliterated vowel), I can only
> say that I also have no strong argument for this usage. The weak arguments
> for would run like this: 1. better grapheme-to-grapheme matching between
> the original script and the transliteration; and 2. actually, easier
> automated processing in some cases at least, e.g. a basic case insensitive
> search would still find the expected results in a transliterated text that
> uses uppercase for these purposes, while the search algorithm would need to
> be devised to ignore the additional marks for independent vowel and vir?ma.
> The same applies to downcasing the text for conversion to Devanagari - it
> should be no problem. I should add that we do want to retain a special
> vir?ma equivalent for glyphs with an explicit vir?ma, though this is also
> slightly problematic, e.g. in case of the "proto-vir?ma" comprised of a
> small dash or arch on top of a subscript final consonant form
>
>
>
> The very best to everyone,
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
>
>
> A point of clarification: would the same document ever use both a "halant
> variant" of a letter (e.g., the final n of the Kannada script) and the
> standard variant followed by a vir?ma sign? I'm asking because my instinct
> would be to simply represent the halant variant of a consonant C as C? (or
> whatever sign you're using for the vir?ma). It's true that the final form
> of the letter in Kannada doesn't "look like" a regular n with a vir?ma, but
> then again the letter kh doesn't look like k + h.
>
>
>
> I'm sure D?niel knows of it, but in case others don't, an article that
> Arlo co-authored with Bob Hudson, Marc Miyake and Julian Wheatley (BEFEO
> 103 [2017]: 43?205) includes a discussion of adapting the ISO-15919
> standards for Pyu, according to which ?V is used for an independent vowel
> sign and ? is used for the vir?ma. I have been using these conventions for
> diplomatic transcription. I don't have a strong argument for or against
> uppercase letters in transliteration, but here are two weak arguments
> against it: (1) uppercase letters are more likely to cause problems in any
> automated processing (e.g., replacements or transliteration) especially in
> mixed-language text; (2) people sometimes use Western capitalization style
> for transliterated text, and even though the use of this style (e.g., in
> lists of bibliographic references) will almost never overlap with the
> epigraphic and codicological applications D?niel has in mind, we might want
> to avoid certain letters changing their meaning across use-cases. For what
> it's worth, I often have text in ISO-15919 that I feed into Sanscript to be
> transliterated into Indic scripts, and I always downcase the text before
> applying the transliteration.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:50 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
> Dear D?niel (and Arlo),
>
>
>
> While I'm afraid that I cannot contribute any answers to your questions, I
> do want to express support for your effort of finding ways to modify
> ISO15919 for epigraphical and codicological material. In addition to the
> issue of initial/full vowels and missing consonant glyphs in manuscripts, I
> frequently run into problems with transliterating manuscript material
> (usually vernacular but sometimes Sanskrit) that 1) uses multiple glyphs
> for the what is ostensibly the same consonant (perhaps the result of
> unstated phonological rules), or 2) in which vowel matras are used appended
> to full vowel glyphs to indicate certain sounds (e.g. dipthongs). This is
> in addition to the numerous challenges posed by transliterating texts
> copied in the Arabic script, which represents morphological distinctions
> orthographically through the use of word breaks, diacritical marks, etc.
>
>
>
> All this to say that, should there be a discussion on proposed changes, I
> would be happy to contribute (and learn from others).
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tyler
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:54 PM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
>
>
> It is possible to obtain some responses to the questions that D?niel asked
> on our joint behalf? It would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Many thanks, and best wishes,
>
>
>
> Arlo Griffiths
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:
> indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of D?niel Balogh via
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
>
> To: indology
>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] ISO15919 and case insensitivity
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I believe some members of the esteemed community reading this were
> involved in drawing up the ISO15919 transliteration standard. I would be
> very happy to correspond with someone, here or off-list, about some generic
> issues and at the moment one particular question.
>
> The generic issues would pertain to using a modified ISO standard in web
> and hardcopy publications, including some modifications that prevent us
> from making a "claim of conformance" as per section 2 of the standard.
> Beyond the practical issue of having to explain to our readers where we
> deviate from the standard, I see no problem associated with this, but I may
> be missing something. At any rate, a proliferation of idiosyncratic
> transliteration systems is not desirable, which leads to the second set of
> generic issues: by whom and how is the ISO standard maintained at present,
> and is there any chance of proposing slight modifications/addenda/special
> cases to it?
>
> The particular question right now is this. The standard explicitly says
> that all transliterations must be case insensitive (Section 8.1 Rule 1).
> Some of us, however, are thinking of using uppercase Roman characters to
> transliterate 1. final consonants represented in historic scripts by
> special "halanta" character forms (instead of the addition of a vir?ma
> sign), and 2. initial/full vowels.
>
> The latter could be made clear using the disambiguation sign already
> codified in the standard (e.g. transliterating ????? as pra:uga), but we
> feel that using Roman uppercase for both these phenomena is intuitively
> similar to the practice of the original script. [Not directly relevant to
> the question at hand is that we would also introduce an additional symbol
> for transliterating the explicit vir?ma sign to handle final or conjunct
> consonants created with such a sign.]
>
> We would use this notation for epigraphic material, but as far as I can
> see it would be equally advantageous in codicology where a diplomatic
> transliteration is desirable. Unambiguously (and in some cases redundantly)
> differentiating final vowel forms is useful not only in cases where these
> are used as a means of text segmentation (e.g. the final consonant of a
> verse quarter is inscribed using a special form, followed by the initial
> consonant of the next quarter, without an intervening punctuation sign but
> with the clear intent of representing the yati in writing), but also where
> partially legible text precedes or follows a lacuna (e.g. occasionally a
> legible vowel m?tr? is attached to a lost/illegible consonant, and it is
> desirable to make it clear in the transliteration that the vowel read is
> not a full vowel ak?ara).
>
> Many thanks in advance for any enlightening comments, and my apologies for
> going into possibly unnecessary detail on the why and how.
>
> Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> INDOLOGY mailing list
>
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> INDOLOGY mailing list
>
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> INDOLOGY mailing list
>
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>
> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be  Sun Jun 23 16:56:56 2019
From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 19 18:56:56 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4FD29496-4B82-4546-97F7-69D53FBF8C31@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <a452dce50e84dfc1710aadb8fbd56268@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>

Dear Bill,

You must be right when saying that "the 28-nak?atra system may also 
likely postdate the 27 one". Actually, the Ved??ga-jyoti?a (VJ), which 
has only 27 n., uses the beginning of n.?ravi??h? and the middle of 
n.??le?? as winter and summer solstices respectively, which places the 
astronomical data of the VJ around 1150 BC. The Gargasa?hit? and the 
Pait?mahasiddh?nta, summarized by Var?hamihira, are similar, but the 
jain works Jyoti?akara??a and S?ryapraj?apti replace n.?ravi??? by 
n.?rava?a and add n.Abhijit (Vega) to the zodiac. On the other hand, the 
S?ryapraj?apti puts the winter solstice at the beginning of n.Abhijit, 
which makes a difference of 17,3? with the beginning of n. ?ravi??h? 
(VJ), that is 1246 years after VJ (see G.Thibaut, ? On the 
S?ryapraj?apti ?, JASB (1880), p.117).

Best,

Jean Michel Delire,
Lecturer on Science and Civilization of India - Sanskrit Texts at the 
IHEB (University of Brussels)



Le 22.06.2019 11:05, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY a ?crit?:
> Dear Bill, Maybe there is something in J. Gonda's work
> Praj?pati's relations with Brahman, B?haspati and Brahm?,
> Amsterdam: North Holland Publishing Company, 1989 (Verhandelingen der
> Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, Afd. Letterkunde)
> http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/DL/publications/PU00010269.pdf [3]
> Best wishes
> Christophe
> 
>> Le 22 juin 2019 ? 00:36, Bill Mak via INDOLOGY
>> <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
>> 
>> Dear colleagues,
>> 
>> I wonder if anyone could point me to any recent research on the
>> history of Brahm? as a deity in early Vedic (pre-Buddhist) sources.
>> I am aware of Bailey?s The mythology of Brahm?, where he
>> described his origin as the apotheosization of the brahm? priest in
>> the ?rauta sacrifice. I am also aware of Thieme?s very thorough
>> study on the _Br?hman _in his _Kleine Schriften_ (Teil I), where
>> the the original senses and etymology as in RV are discussed. I am
>> however still somewhat puzzled about the presence of Brahm? as a
>> deity in the early Vedic sa?hit?s.
>> 
>> This puzzle came about when I was going through the list of _
>> nak?atras_ in all the Vedic sources, which give either 27 or 28.
>> The difference between 27 and 28 lies in the _nak?atra_ _Abhijit_,
>> which is always associated with Brahm?. If Brahm? has a late
>> origin, it is likely then an interpolation, and the 28-nak?atra
>> system may also likely postdate the 27 one. But before I proceed on
>> this line of analysis, I would appreciate it if anyone could
>> enlighten me on Brahm? as an deity in the early Vedic sources,
>> along with the most updated references on studies on the early Vedic
>> deities.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Bill Mak
>> 
>> -- Bill M. Mak
>> 
>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto
>> Japan
>> 
>> [from Oct 2019]
>> Needham Research Institute,
>> 8 Sylvester Road,
>> Cambridge, U.K.
>> 
>> copies of my publications may be found at:
>> http://www.billmak.com [1]
>> 
>> http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak [2]
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> options or unsubscribe)
> 
>  ???????????????????
>  Christophe Vielle [4]
>  Louvain-la-Neuve
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.billmak.com/
> [2] http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak
> [3] http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/DL/publications/PU00010269.pdf
> [4] https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)





From jemhouben at gmail.com  Sun Jun 23 18:21:57 2019
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 19 20:21:57 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <0C18152B-6859-49E6-B5A6-B734A04CAFC3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBrxw5a9TnMV0opHSOnJ-oH_Vxhva2scgAwrZN_FcG5MQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Bill, Dear All,
At the moment of the acceptance of 19.7 and 8 in AV(Saunaka) there was
(already) an awareness of twenty-eight naksatras.
See discussion by Lanman in Whitney's translation -- hymn 7, which contains
the enumeration, is "wanting in Paipp."
A question related to yours and perhaps relevant to attempts to answer it:
Ancient China was aware of 28 naksatras, neatly distributed in four groups
of seven.
Has any study been done on a comparison of the ancient Chinese and the
ancient Indian lists or on possible mutual influences and their comparative
age?
Best regards,
Jan

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 00:36, Bill Mak via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I wonder if anyone could point me to any recent research on the history of
> Brahm? as a deity in early Vedic (pre-Buddhist) sources. I am aware of
> Bailey?s The mythology of Brahm?, where he described his origin as the
> apotheosization of the brahm? priest in the ?rauta sacrifice. I am also
> aware of Thieme?s very thorough study on the *Br?hman *in his *Kleine
> Schriften* (Teil I), where the the original senses and etymology as in RV
> are discussed. I am however still somewhat puzzled about the presence of
> Brahm? as a deity in the early Vedic sa?hit?s.
>
> This puzzle came about when I was going through the list of *nak?atras* in
> all the Vedic sources, which give either 27 or 28. The difference between
> 27 and 28 lies in the *nak?atra* *Abhijit*, which is always associated
> with Brahm?. If Brahm? has a late origin, it is likely then an
> interpolation, and the 28-nak?atra system may also likely postdate the 27
> one. But before I proceed on this line of analysis, I would appreciate it
> if anyone could enlighten me on Brahm? as an deity in the early Vedic
> sources, along with the most updated references on studies on the early
> Vedic deities.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill Mak
>
>
> --
> Bill M. Mak
>
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto
> Japan
>
> [from Oct 2019]
> Needham Research Institute,
> 8 Sylvester Road,
> Cambridge, U.K.
>
>
> copies of my publications may be found at:
> http://www.billmak.com
> http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From bill.m.mak at gmail.com  Sun Jun 23 21:21:09 2019
From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 06:21:09 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <a452dce50e84dfc1710aadb8fbd56268@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1F273667-0399-404C-ACCF-14F5DC7D9080@gmail.com>

Dear Jean,

Thank you for the Thibaut reference. It seems indeed easier to explain the differences using an accretive model. Especially since a sidereal month is 27.3 days, 27 may be a nice rounded number, and Abhijit was added later to account for the remainder. Furthermore, in the unequal nak?atra system Abhijit was always made very small both in terms of measurement of arcs on the ecliptic and the duration traversed by the Moon. I am however cautious and I try to imagine in my head a p?rvapak?a trying to explain how 28 could have become 27 instead!

Using VJ as a historical point of reference is not so easy. As Pingree and others have pointed out (Pingree, jyoti???stra, 1981), there are evidences that there are layers of astronomical materials from different periods, and for other philological reasons he dated VJ to 400 B.C. Astronomically speaking, one finds in VJ the 27 nak?atras beginning with K?ttik? as in the Vedic sa?hit?s. But then they were used not as constellations, but equal divisions of 13;20 deg on the ecliptic. More clues of this adaptation may be gleaned from Som?kara?s Bh??ya. Yano ("The Nak?atra system of the Atharvaveda-Pari?i??a", 2009) pointed out that the initial point of ecliptic coordinate in VJ was placed not at K?ttik? or as later at A?vn?, but rather in between at Bhara?? 10 deg. So there is a handful of information to be disentangled.

Best regards,

Bill
  
-- 
Bill M. Mak

Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
Japan
?606-8501 ??????????
???????????

Tel:+81-75-753-6961
Fax:+81-75-753-6903

copies of my publications may be found at:
http://www.billmak.com <http://www.billmak.com/>
http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak

> On Jun 24, 2019, at 1:56 AM, jmdelire via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Bill,
> 
> You must be right when saying that "the 28-nak?atra system may also likely postdate the 27 one". Actually, the Ved??ga-jyoti?a (VJ), which has only 27 n., uses the beginning of n.?ravi??h? and the middle of n.??le?? as winter and summer solstices respectively, which places the astronomical data of the VJ around 1150 BC. The Gargasa?hit? and the Pait?mahasiddh?nta, summarized by Var?hamihira, are similar, but the jain works Jyoti?akara??a and S?ryapraj?apti replace n.?ravi??? by n.?rava?a and add n.Abhijit (Vega) to the zodiac. On the other hand, the S?ryapraj?apti puts the winter solstice at the beginning of n.Abhijit, which makes a difference of 17,3? with the beginning of n. ?ravi??h? (VJ), that is 1246 years after VJ (see G.Thibaut, ? On the S?ryapraj?apti ?, JASB (1880), p.117).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jean Michel Delire,
> Lecturer on Science and Civilization of India - Sanskrit Texts at the IHEB (University of Brussels)
> 
> 
> 
> Le 22.06.2019 11:05, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY a ?crit :
>> Dear Bill, Maybe there is something in J. Gonda's work
>> Praj?pati's relations with Brahman, B?haspati and Brahm?,
>> Amsterdam: North Holland Publishing Company, 1989 (Verhandelingen der
>> Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, Afd. Letterkunde)
>> http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/DL/publications/PU00010269.pdf [3]
>> Best wishes
>> Christophe
>>> Le 22 juin 2019 ? 00:36, Bill Mak via INDOLOGY
>>> <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>> I wonder if anyone could point me to any recent research on the
>>> history of Brahm? as a deity in early Vedic (pre-Buddhist) sources.
>>> I am aware of Bailey?s The mythology of Brahm?, where he
>>> described his origin as the apotheosization of the brahm? priest in
>>> the ?rauta sacrifice. I am also aware of Thieme?s very thorough
>>> study on the _Br?hman _in his _Kleine Schriften_ (Teil I), where
>>> the the original senses and etymology as in RV are discussed. I am
>>> however still somewhat puzzled about the presence of Brahm? as a
>>> deity in the early Vedic sa?hit?s.
>>> This puzzle came about when I was going through the list of _
>>> nak?atras_ in all the Vedic sources, which give either 27 or 28.
>>> The difference between 27 and 28 lies in the _nak?atra_ _Abhijit_,
>>> which is always associated with Brahm?. If Brahm? has a late
>>> origin, it is likely then an interpolation, and the 28-nak?atra
>>> system may also likely postdate the 27 one. But before I proceed on
>>> this line of analysis, I would appreciate it if anyone could
>>> enlighten me on Brahm? as an deity in the early Vedic sources,
>>> along with the most updated references on studies on the early Vedic
>>> deities.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Bill Mak
>>> -- Bill M. Mak
>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto
>>> Japan
>>> [from Oct 2019]
>>> Needham Research Institute,
>>> 8 Sylvester Road,
>>> Cambridge, U.K.
>>> copies of my publications may be found at:
>>> http://www.billmak.com [1]
>>> http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak [2]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>> options or unsubscribe)
>> ???????????????????
>> Christophe Vielle [4]
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] http://www.billmak.com/
>> [2] http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak
>> [3] http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/DL/publications/PU00010269.pdf
>> [4] https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>> or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From bill.m.mak at gmail.com  Sun Jun 23 22:02:13 2019
From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 07:02:13 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBrxw5a9TnMV0opHSOnJ-oH_Vxhva2scgAwrZN_FcG5MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <142F1EAA-5DC8-4760-9597-42053AD3CAF0@gmail.com>

Dear Jan,

The discussion of 27 vs 28 described by Lanman as "a moot point? was indeed discussed by Whitney. My understanding is that 28 nak?atras were found in much earlier sa?hit?s such as the Taittir?ya (4.4.10) and the Maitray??i (2.13.20). This was my point about the interpolation.

Many have written about the Chinese 28 xiu-s (lunar lodges) and the nak?atras. A good place to start would be Needham?s Science and Civilisation in China. Vol. 3. Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and the Earth. Yano has a concise and useful discussion is his book ?Esoteric Buddhist Astrology? (p. 62-64 of English trans. just published this year).

Best regards,

Bill

-- 
Bill M. Mak

Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
Japan
?606-8501 ??????????
???????????

Tel:+81-75-753-6961
Fax:+81-75-753-6903

copies of my publications may be found at:
http://www.billmak.com <http://www.billmak.com/>
http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak

> On Jun 24, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Dear Bill, Dear All,
> At the moment of the acceptance of 19.7 and 8 in AV(Saunaka) there was (already) an awareness of twenty-eight naksatras. 
> See discussion by Lanman in Whitney's translation -- hymn 7, which contains the enumeration, is "wanting in Paipp."
> A question related to yours and perhaps relevant to attempts to answer it: 
> Ancient China was aware of 28 naksatras, neatly distributed in four groups of seven. 
> Has any study been done on a comparison of the ancient Chinese and the ancient Indian lists or on possible mutual influences and their comparative age?
> Best regards,
> Jan
> 
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 00:36, Bill Mak via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> I wonder if anyone could point me to any recent research on the history of Brahm? as a deity in early Vedic (pre-Buddhist) sources. I am aware of Bailey?s The mythology of Brahm?, where he described his origin as the apotheosization of the brahm? priest in the ?rauta sacrifice. I am also aware of Thieme?s very thorough study on the Br?hman in his Kleine Schriften (Teil I), where the the original senses and etymology as in RV are discussed. I am however still somewhat puzzled about the presence of Brahm? as a deity in the early Vedic sa?hit?s.
> 
> This puzzle came about when I was going through the list of nak?atras in all the Vedic sources, which give either 27 or 28. The difference between 27 and 28 lies in the nak?atra Abhijit, which is always associated with Brahm?. If Brahm? has a late origin, it is likely then an interpolation, and the 28-nak?atra system may also likely postdate the 27 one. But before I proceed on this line of analysis, I would appreciate it if anyone could enlighten me on Brahm? as an deity in the early Vedic sources, along with the most updated references on studies on the early Vedic deities.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Bill Mak
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bill M. Mak
> 
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto
> Japan
> 
> [from Oct 2019]
> Needham Research Institute,
> 8 Sylvester Road,
> Cambridge, U.K.
> 
> 
> copies of my publications may be found at:
> http://www.billmak.com <http://www.billmak.com/>
> http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak <http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jan E.M. Houben
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
> johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>
> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>


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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Mon Jun 24 08:03:44 2019
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 10:03:44 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Proposals 3rd EAAA Monograph Series volume
In-Reply-To: <142F1EAA-5DC8-4760-9597-42053AD3CAF0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8E02F0A8-C5D8-4196-A822-C71876D2871D@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

please find attached the call for proposals for the 3rd EAAA Monograph Series volume.

With kind regards,

Julia Hegewald.





Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042







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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Mon Jun 24 08:12:22 2019
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 10:12:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for bids: 4th conference of the EAAA in 2023
In-Reply-To: <8E02F0A8-C5D8-4196-A822-C71876D2871D@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <CB620106-43D4-4C7A-A07E-227A0E392BF2@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

please find attached the call for bids for the 4th international conference of the European Association for Asian Art and Archaeology (EAAA) in Ljubljana (Slovenia) in 2023.

With kind regards,


Julia Hegewald.



Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042







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From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Mon Jun 24 08:18:43 2019
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 10:18:43 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Correction
In-Reply-To: <142F1EAA-5DC8-4760-9597-42053AD3CAF0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D23098B4-6BEA-4842-8116-352614CE6EFE@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

sorry for the confusion, here comes the correct attachment for my previous email.

Please also take note of the previous attachment to plan the next conference.

With kind regards,

Julia Hegewald.





Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042







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From skarashima at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 10:21:03 2019
From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 19:21:03 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PDF_file_of_the_new_edition_of_the_Mah=C4=81vastu,_vol._III?=
Message-ID: <CAEd5L8hjm2cpyY=j2J=CnfGCMkUvCLqJV4GN6-UKvXt0XcGKyw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I am happy to announce that a PDF file of the third volume of the new
edition of the* Mah?vastu*, ed. by Dr. Marciniak, is now available on the
website of IRIAB (http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html). Some
addenda et corrigenda are incorporated in the file. A list of further
addenda et corrigenda will be occasionally renewed and uploaded. I myself
and Dr. Marciniak are now preparing vols. I and II, which will be published
in the coming years.


A proposed abbreviation of this edition is as follows:

Mv(KM)  =  *The Mah?vastu: A New Edition* by Seishi Karashima and Katarzyna
Marciniak, 3 vols., Tokyo: The International Research Institute for
Advanced Buddhology, Soka University. 2019?.


With best wishes,

Seishi Karashima

https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima


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From manufrancis at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 10:31:30 2019
From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 12:31:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian Manuscripts from Switzerland
Message-ID: <CANVHsm4KCNQ+kb1w=X8dzEyYJNvfYdPP513ieNiRQvFk=W0=fQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Claire Brizon (cc-ed), a colleague from the Bern University, recently sent
me photographs of palm-leaf manuscripts brought in the 18th century from
India to Switzerland by Swiss mercenaries (Polier, Villaret).

I could identify the language and script of 2 Tamil manuscripts. There are
4 other items: in Malayalam, Singhalese and Telugu/Kannada, it seems.

Could knowledgeable ones kindly confirm/infirm my guesses and say more
about the contents of the manuscripts?

Here are the pictures:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gt6knv3ojp3p2g0/AACYn4j4qeV9yjO2nvj4y_ETa?dl=0

Please contact directly Claire Brizon <claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch>.

If you are interested in studying these manuscripts, Claire Brizon will do
her best to get more pictures.

With very best wishes.
Emmanuel FRANCIS <http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725>
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud
<http://ceias.ehess.fr/> (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
Online CV HAL <https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuel-francis>
Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India <http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/>
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture
<http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html> (SFB 950,
Universit?t Hamburg)


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From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de  Mon Jun 24 11:05:12 2019
From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 13:05:12 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian Manuscripts from Switzerland
In-Reply-To: <CANVHsm4KCNQ+kb1w=X8dzEyYJNvfYdPP513ieNiRQvFk=W0=fQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f4a63ba-70ab-7e86-3b78-07c8ac3f9632@uni-bonn.de>

Am 24.06.2019 um 12:31 schrieb Manu Francis via INDOLOGY:
>
> Claire Brizon (cc-ed), a colleague from the Bern University, recently 
> sent me photographs of palm-leaf manuscripts brought in the 18th 
> century from India to Switzerland by Swiss mercenaries (Polier, Villaret).
>
> I could identify the language and script of 2 Tamil manuscripts. There 
> are 4 other items: in Malayalam, Singhalese and Telugu/Kannada, it seems.
>
> Could knowledgeable ones kindly confirm/infirm my guesses and say more 
> about the contents of the manuscripts?
>
> Here are the pictures:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gt6knv3ojp3p2g0/AACYn4j4qeV9yjO2nvj4y_ETa?dl=0
>
> Please contact directly Claire Brizon <claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch 
> <mailto:claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch>>.
>
The manuscript BCU_Lausanne_G180A is written in Burmese script (used for 
Burmese, Pali, Mon). I am not proficient enough to make more of it. At 
first sight it doesn't look like Pali.

Hope it helps
Peter Wyzlic

-- 
Universit?t Bonn
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften
Bibliothek
Br?hler Str. 7
D-53119 Bonn
Tel.: 0228/73-62436



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From francois.voegeli at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 13:15:53 2019
From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (Francois Voegeli)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 15:15:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian Manuscripts from Switzerland
In-Reply-To: <CANVHsm4KCNQ+kb1w=X8dzEyYJNvfYdPP513ieNiRQvFk=W0=fQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB675DDB-C1F9-496E-BE67-62D217B1E371@gmail.com>

The MCAH_Lausanne_IG256 and MCAH_Lausanne_IV829 are in Malayalam lipi, apparently transcribing a Malayalam text but I am not proficient enough in the language to see which one.

Best,

F. Voegeli



> On 24 Jun 2019, at 12:31, Manu Francis via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> 
> Claire Brizon (cc-ed), a colleague from the Bern University, recently sent me photographs of palm-leaf manuscripts brought in the 18th century from India to Switzerland by Swiss mercenaries (Polier, Villaret).
> 
> I could identify the language and script of 2 Tamil manuscripts. There are 4 other items: in Malayalam, Singhalese and Telugu/Kannada, it seems.
> 
> Could knowledgeable ones kindly confirm/infirm my guesses and say more about the contents of the manuscripts?
> 
> Here are the pictures:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gt6knv3ojp3p2g0/AACYn4j4qeV9yjO2nvj4y_ETa?dl=0 <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gt6knv3ojp3p2g0/AACYn4j4qeV9yjO2nvj4y_ETa?dl=0>
> Please contact directly Claire Brizon <claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch <mailto:claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch>>.
> 
> If you are interested in studying these manuscripts, Claire Brizon will do her best to get more pictures.
> 
> With very best wishes.
> 
> Emmanuel FRANCIS <http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725>
> Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud <http://ceias.ehess.fr/> (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
> Online CV HAL <https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuel-francis>
> Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India <http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/>
> Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture <http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html> (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jun 24 13:45:11 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 06:45:11 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] My Sanskrit rendering of an English poem by RY Deshpande
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdzZA52fHDFfNpQmdhK3Pdh8Z+zyxqEG9U8Zp5HR+uDWg@mail.gmail.com>

*English poem by  RY Deshpande, rendered into Sanskrit verse by Madhav M.
Deshpande*

*June 23, 2019*



Under the Yamuna

There is a river,

Serene and yet swift,

Greatly avid and esoteric,

Its waters trimeric!

Purity like the fire,

Winging higher and higher!

A gifts-of-love giver!

On its hither shore a gift ?

Gokulam, Gokulam!


???????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?

???????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ??

???????? ????????? ??????? ?????: ?

?????????????? ????????? ???????????????? ??

?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ?



Under the Yamuna

There is a river

A delight?s giver!

Under the Yamuna

Adorer and Adored

A flame into flame poured!


???????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?

?????????? ???? ???????? ???????????????? ??

???????? ?????????? ???????? ? ?????? ?

?????? ??????? ???? ?????????? ????????? ??



As it speeds, it speeds,

Joy to joys leads,

Speeds more and more;

On its hither shore

In Gokulam?s grove!

In promptness of love!


??? ????????????? ???? ??????????? ?

????????????? ?????? ??????????????????

????? ?????: ??? ???? ???????? ????????? ?

????????: ????????: ??????????? ?????????? ??



Scented orange flowers

In globe-shaped hours

On the hither bank

Perfectest in rank

In this Gokulam,

With scented globes of Kadambam!


????????????????????? ????????????????? ?

?????? ??? ??? ???? ????????????????? ??


Love in the heart sinks!

Like a bee that honey drinks!

Gokulam! Gokulam!

???????! ???????!


????? ?????? ???????? ????????????????? ?

?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??



Scented globes of Kadambam!

Orange spheres of Kadambam!

Gokulam! ???????

Gokulam! ???????


????????????????? ??????: ????????: ??? ?

?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??



And the reed plays

Like raptures and rays;

Mountains climb

Whispering winds plead

And the brooks speed, ?

Timelessness entering into time!

>From silence    music comes;

Occult of the quiet hums:



Gokulam! ???????!

Gokulam! ???????!


???????? ??????????? ?????: ??????????? ?

?????: ????????? ????: ???????? ??????? ????: ??

????????? ???? ?????? ????????? ??????????: ?

?????????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????? ??

?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?


Under this Yamuna

There is a river!

Oh that river

Under the Yamuna!

In the buzz of time,

In the hurry of highways,

In the quickness of rhyme!

And this river

Under the Yamuna

Rushes into Yamuna

A loveliest music plays

In festival of Kadambam!



Gokulam! ???????!

Gokulam! ???????!


???????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?

??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??

???????? ?????????? ?????????????? ?

?????? ?????? ??? ???????????? ???????

???????????????: ?? ????????? ???????? ?

???????? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??

??? ????????????? ??????? ????????? ?

?????? ????????? ??????????????? ??




In festival of Kadambam!



Gokulam! ???????!

Gokulam! ???????!

Gokulam! ???????!

Gokulam! ???????!

Gokulam! ???????!


?????????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ?

??????????? ??????? - ?????? ?? ??????? ??



RY Deshpande

23 June 2019


Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Mon Jun 24 13:50:33 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 13:50:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  Indian Manuscripts from Switzerland
In-Reply-To: <6805730C-608D-4DEE-922D-83BFB59F3AF0@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <682E80D5-C72A-4BE1-8232-4D6A80C2EE4B@uclouvain.be>

IG0256.JPG is in Malayalam script an extract from the BhgP, cf. at the end (two last lines) = 7,30-31
BhP_07.09.030/4 n?neva tair[avasita]stadanupravi??a?
BhP_07.09.031/1 tvamv? ida? sadasad??a bhav??stato 'nyo

De: Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be<mailto:christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be>>
Objet: R?p : [INDOLOGY] Indian Manuscripts from Switzerland
Date: 24 juin 2019 ? 15:31:02 UTC+2

IVB029 (4).JPG appears to display in Malayalam script declined nominal forms (like in the SIddhar?pam grammar), e.g. dyau.h, divo, diva.h etc.


Le 24 juin 2019 ? 13:05, Peter Wyzlic via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Am 24.06.2019 um 12:31 schrieb Manu Francis via INDOLOGY:
Claire Brizon (cc-ed), a colleague from the Bern University, recently sent me photographs of palm-leaf manuscripts brought in the 18th century from India to Switzerland by Swiss mercenaries (Polier, Villaret).
I could identify the language and script of 2 Tamil manuscripts. There are 4 other items: in Malayalam, Singhalese and Telugu/Kannada, it seems.
Could knowledgeable ones kindly confirm/infirm my guesses and say more about the contents of the manuscripts?
Here are the pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gt6knv3ojp3p2g0/AACYn4j4qeV9yjO2nvj4y_ETa?dl=0
Please contact directly Claire Brizon <claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch<mailto:claire.brizon at ikg.unibe.ch>>.

The manuscript BCU_Lausanne_G180A is written in Burmese script (used for Burmese, Pali, Mon). I am not proficient enough to make more of it. At first sight it doesn't look like Pali.

Hope it helps
Peter Wyzlic

--
Universit?t Bonn
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften
Bibliothek
Br?hler Str. 7
D-53119 Bonn
Tel.: 0228/73-62436

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve




???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From sivangoren at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 16:17:57 2019
From: sivangoren at gmail.com (Sivan Goren)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 12:17:57 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Search for PDF- "Early Manipravalam: a study"
Message-ID: <CAPPg1ZzCzWr8fZ+qS48muOKsQNQ2hOFxr0RW8gMc+DcHMGevQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Does anyone happen to have a PDF copy of K. Ramachandran Nair's 1971 book
"Early Manipravalam: a study" (Trivandrum: Anjali)?
Many many thanks!

Sivan


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jun 24 16:26:38 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 10:26:38 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_PDF_file_of_the_new_edition_of_the_Mah=C4=81vastu,_vol._III?=
In-Reply-To: <CAEd5L8hjm2cpyY=j2J=CnfGCMkUvCLqJV4GN6-UKvXt0XcGKyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcyzuMwOesrbQB0ctsPPs84SVr_quQMeu=jrq2hEiYSFg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Karashima,

This is a great service to indology and Buddhist studies.  Many thanks
indeed to yourself, to Dr. Marciniak and to everyone connected with
producing this new edition of the Mah?vastu and making it freely available.

Sincerely,
Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 04:22, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am happy to announce that a PDF file of the third volume of the new
> edition of the* Mah?vastu*, ed. by Dr. Marciniak, is now available on the
> website of IRIAB (http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html). Some
> addenda et corrigenda are incorporated in the file. A list of further
> addenda et corrigenda will be occasionally renewed and uploaded. I myself
> and Dr. Marciniak are now preparing vols. I and II, which will be published
> in the coming years.
>
>
> A proposed abbreviation of this edition is as follows:
>
> Mv(KM)  =  *The Mah?vastu: A New Edition* by Seishi Karashima and
> Katarzyna Marciniak, 3 vols., Tokyo: The International Research Institute
> for Advanced Buddhology, Soka University. 2019?.
>
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Seishi Karashima
>
> https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Mon Jun 24 21:17:47 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 22:17:47 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_PDF_file_of_the_new_edition_of_the_Mah=C4=81vastu,_vol._III?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcyzuMwOesrbQB0ctsPPs84SVr_quQMeu=jrq2hEiYSFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E9E0461-9F15-4A96-AA70-5E8686A96197@btinternet.com>

Dear Prof. Karashima

This is marvellous. However I only seem to be able to find Vol. 3. Can you please provide links for the first two volumes?

With many thanks -

Dr Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

> On 24 Jun 2019, at 17:26, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Prof. Karashima,
> 
> This is a great service to indology and Buddhist studies.  Many thanks indeed to yourself, to Dr. Marciniak and to everyone connected with producing this new edition of the Mah?vastu and making it freely available.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Dominik Wujastyk
> 
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>,
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>,
> University of Alberta, Canada.
> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 04:22, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
> I am happy to announce that a PDF file of the third volume of the new edition of the Mah?vastu, ed. by Dr. Marciniak, is now available on the website of IRIAB (http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html <http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html>). Some addenda et corrigenda are incorporated in the file. A list of further addenda et corrigenda will be occasionally renewed and uploaded. I myself and Dr. Marciniak are now preparing vols. I and II, which will be published in the coming years.
> 
> A proposed abbreviation of this edition is as follows:
> 	Mv(KM)  =  The Mah?vastu: A New Edition by Seishi Karashima and Katarzyna Marciniak, 3 vols., Tokyo: The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology, Soka University. 2019?.
> 
> With best wishes,
> Seishi Karashima
> https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima <https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Mon Jun 24 21:26:07 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 19 22:26:07 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_PDF_file_of_the_new_edition_of_the_Mah=C4=81vastu,_vol._III?=
In-Reply-To: <1E9E0461-9F15-4A96-AA70-5E8686A96197@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <C500A2FD-125D-4F3C-A154-71572C0B2FB6@btinternet.com>

Sorry, I have just noticed where you have said that vols. 1 and 2 are in preparation.

Valerie Roebuck
vjroebuck at btinternet.com



> On 24 Jun 2019, at 22:17, Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Prof. Karashima
> 
> This is marvellous. However I only seem to be able to find Vol. 3. Can you please provide links for the first two volumes?
> 
> With many thanks -
> 
> Dr Valerie J Roebuck
> Manchester, UK
> 
>> On 24 Jun 2019, at 17:26, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Prof. Karashima,
>> 
>> This is a great service to indology and Buddhist studies.  Many thanks indeed to yourself, to Dr. Marciniak and to everyone connected with producing this new edition of the Mah?vastu and making it freely available.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Dominik Wujastyk
>> 
>> --
>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>,
>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
>> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>,
>> University of Alberta, Canada.
>> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 04:22, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> Dear colleagues,
>> I am happy to announce that a PDF file of the third volume of the new edition of the Mah?vastu, ed. by Dr. Marciniak, is now available on the website of IRIAB (http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html <http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html>). Some addenda et corrigenda are incorporated in the file. A list of further addenda et corrigenda will be occasionally renewed and uploaded. I myself and Dr. Marciniak are now preparing vols. I and II, which will be published in the coming years.
>> 
>> A proposed abbreviation of this edition is as follows:
>> 	Mv(KM)  =  The Mah?vastu: A New Edition by Seishi Karashima and Katarzyna Marciniak, 3 vols., Tokyo: The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology, Soka University. 2019?.
>> 
>> With best wishes,
>> Seishi Karashima
>> https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima <https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
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>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jun 25 06:44:03 2019
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 19 12:14:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
In-Reply-To: <CAHRgzy0VSCV-t4TRtgR01QriyuynxgwPLtaFpHb=sPDbDUPRhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebZAabhhD6iosK5K7CuN9W8d3n2kSSS-LVO9Jy08dp9Ow@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr Tyler Williams,

Your post below has many expressions that deserve response.

You accuse AAIS as an organisation that divides scholars studying Indic
Civilization into "we Indians" and "they the Western". The very fact that
the CFP is shared on this forum where a very big number of western scholars
are members and it is inviting all the members to contribute to the
conference, shows that no such attitude of only Indian no western
participation in the study of Indic Civilization exists in the CFP or in
the organization that shared it here.

While the CFP is being posted by a scholar dedicated to the study of the
discipline of History , you say that the CFP and the organization sharing
it are opposed to the discipline of History. " Religious Studies" is a
discipline that does not exist in any Indian university and exists only in
the west. The person sharing the CFP has a PhD degree in that discipline.
You say that the CFP and the organization sharing it are opposed to
'western' disciplines. You say that the organisation represented by the
scholar sharing the CFP calls "History", a western discipline and is
opposed to it while the fact is that she is a professor of that very
discipline History.

Your post characterizes and caricatures the Indology list as a forum of
left leaning intellectuals who consider only the left leaning/ Marxist
Indian scholars as "our Indian colleagues" . I don't think Indology list is
such, though, there is a possibility of scholars with such a leaning being
in good numbers here.

More agonizing is the repeated use of words such as "harassment" and
"violence" in your post. You say that this harassment and violence happens
to " our" non-Maoist  "  Indian colleagues" because of conflating them with
the " Maoist rebels ". You mention the word " Urban Naxals" which is the
title of a recent book by Sri Vivek Agnihotri. That book starts with the
description of an incident of violence against him. It is not clear whether
the violence against him described there was the act of Maoist rebels are
the Marxists who are not Maoist rebels but allowed they getting conflated
with the Maoist rebels. That apart, such incidents prove who, in Indian
academic institutions, for all the past decades after independence,  have
been in a position of committing "harassment" and "violence" against those
who disagree with them.

In any case, singling out the "harassment" and "violence" against only
scholars of a certain political leaning and ignoring harassment and
violence against scholars of other kind of thinking is blatently visible in
your post.  Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against
only scholars of that political leaning with the organization sending the
CFP is what is objectionable in that approach.

You bring back the last WSC discussion saying , "in order to suggest that
the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the quite literal
form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*." after the
organisers clarified that violence and not allowing were not facts and the
discussion in that regard was closed here after that clarification.

Your words

"In other words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians"
versus "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian
knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites
that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups."

while putting into the mouth of the organizers the non-existing attitude
of  "the argument  to be between "we Indians" versus "non-Indians," ",

makes the perception

"that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were
produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other
groups"

to be a fact.

What is the purpose of academic forums and conferences if it is not to
discuss such fact-perception differences and such  claims which are
contestable and debatable.

You list one kind of post-colonial studies

which has theorizations such as

1. colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried out by
European *together with *members of elite South Asian communities,

 2) due to that epistemic rupture it is no longer possible to access some
kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge or understanding,


as THE (only) post-colonial studies paradigm

and don't show the diligence that other approaches to post-colonial studies
are possible.

It does not reflect nuanced understanding and intricate understanding of
issues such as Orality and Literacy, history of accessibility of certain
kinds of texts in comparison to the other kinds of texts due to the history
of European scholarly attention to certain texts in comparison to the other
kind of texts and the projection of that colonial and European lack of
accessing and lesser prioritization as "silencing" by the authors of the
texts accessed by the Europeans.

Yes,   "academics have a responsibility to listen to marginalized and
formerly silenced voices of history (and the present)"

Paradigms alternative to  those of the post-colonial studies listed by you
under your # 1 & 2 above,

and countering views to the

views such as

"that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were
produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other
groups"

that have been made into the global academic mainstream using the global
political power

are the ones currently globally marginalized  and global academics have
responsibility to listen to these alternative views.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:12 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I must
> express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed "conference,"
> so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology listserve being used
> to promote this event.
>
> There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
> project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
> the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
> aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
> against our colleagues in India.
>
> The AAIS, per its website, states the reason for its existence thus: until
> now, "Western" disciplines like history, philology, philosophy, etcetera
> have been used to understand Indic material and are not sufficient for the
> task; therefore a new academic program is necessary that uses "Indic"
> knowledge systems to understand Indian material. This well-worn nativist
> argument ignores two important things: first, systems of knowledge like
> history, philology, philosophy, etcetera were practiced in South Asia
> during the precolonial period-- a fact that many scholars of this list
> demonstrate in their research-- and second, the fact that many scholars
> working in so-called "Western" disciplines (because whether we work in
> South Asian or other universities, we all have to work in existing
> departments) actually use South Asian knowledge systems in their study of
> texts, history, social phenomenon, and the like. The fact that many of us
> were trained in South Asian institutions by traditionally-trained
> scholars--or by non-Indian scholars well -steeped in things like nyaya,
> kavyasastra, itihasa, etc.--should tell one that we do, in fact, take South
> Asian knowledge systems seriously.
>
> The AAIS's charter and mission are, in fact, anti-intellectual and built
> on highly dubious arguments. Like several similar organizations that have
> sprung up over the last several years with the rise of Hindutva politics,
> it appropriates the language of postcolonial studies while totally
> rejecting both the theoretical and ethical imperatives of postcolonial
> studies. Postcolonial studies argues 1) that colonialism (and its
> epistemological violence) were carried out by European *together with*
> members of elite South Asian communities, 2) due to that epistemic rupture
> it is no longer possible to access some kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge
> or understanding, and 3) academics have a responsibility to listen to
> marginalized and formerly silenced voices of history (and the present).
>
> In contrast, the AAIS poses such vague and theoretically problematic
> questions as "Would the academic presentation of the Indic civilization be
> different if it had been the work of scholars who did not use Western
> theories and categories?" and makes anti-historical assertions such as "The
> term ?Indic? is a reference, not just to India as a modern contemporary
> country, but to the civilization that has been known internationally and
> historically by the river Indus. It refers to more than 5000 years of a
> continuous civilization whose kernel is a unique knowledge system which is
> beneficial to all humankind." The anti-historical, anti-intellectual, and
> nationalist implications of this should be clear.
>
> Most worryingly, the AAIS appears to ignore the most fundamental tenets of
> postcolonial criticism: to constantly and self-reflexively locate oneself
> as a scholar in institutions and dynamics of power. Groups like the AAIS
> imply that the only power differential is between "Western" scholars and
> "Indian" natives; doing so requires eliding or ignoring the massive and
> complicated relationships of power in South Asian societies. In other
> words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians" versus
> "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian knowledge
> systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites that were
> oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups.
>
> This dynamic came out nowhere more vividly than on this list (and others)
> after the last WSC: those of the nativist Hindutva persuasion complained
> that allowing women who had suffered marginalization in the
> Sanskrit-learning community to speak about that marginalization was
> anti-Indian and part of a global conspiracy to malign the Indian nation. In
> this case, suppressing dissent *within* the Indian community in order to
> suggest that the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the
> quite literal form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*.
>
> Finally-- and I realize the seriousness of this claim-- the AAIS and
> similar organizations ally with a politics that has encouraged the
> marginalization, harassment, and even violence against our colleagues in
> India, including colleagues on this list. The AAIS website specifically
> singles out "Marxism" as one of the evils of "Western" scholarship; this is
> (and has been) used as a dogwhistle to attack any left-leaning (or even
> centrist) scholars working in India. A few of the AAIS board members
> themselves have repeated and amplified calls for rooting out "urban
> Naxals," a term that conflates left-leaning academics with Maoist rebels in
> India. We are all only too aware of the real danger this kind of politics
> poses for the lives and livelihoods of Indian colleagues.
>
> I apologize for using the space of the listserve for a polemic; I am just
> tired of seeing the scholarly forum which Dominik and others have worked so
> hard to build used for a purpose that is directly hostile to the work of so
> many of us. The AAIS presents itself as a serious, progressive voice; I am
> afraid that it is anything but.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tyler Williams
> University of Chicago
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:30 AM Lavanya Vemsani via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>> Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us for
>> the First Annual Conference.
>> Please circulate the CFP widely.
>> Thank you.
>> Lavanya
>>
>>
>> Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of
>>
>> American Academy of Indic Studies
>>
>>
>> The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly,
>> non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and
>> students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to
>> promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at
>> www.AAIndicStudies.org <http://www.aaindicstudies.org>
>>
>> For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly
>> presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We
>> invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit
>> their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic
>> wisdom and traditions.
>>
>> The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the
>> ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at
>> large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and
>> investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards
>> postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal
>> obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under
>> consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal
>> arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over
>> the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process
>> of postcolonialism.
>>
>> The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th
>>
>> Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020
>>
>> Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with https://www.naaas.org
>>
>> Conference Proceedings: To be announced.
>>
>> *Lavanya Vemsani*
>> Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
>> Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
>> Shawnee State University
>> President, *Ohio Academy of History *
>> Co-founder, *American Academy of Indic Studies *
>> Editor-in-Chief
>> *American Journal of Indic Studies*
>> Managing Editor
>> *International Journal of Indic Religions *
>> *Associate Editor *
>> *-Canadian Journal of History *
>> *-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs*
>> http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From jessie.pons at ruhr-uni-bochum.de  Tue Jun 25 09:51:16 2019
From: jessie.pons at ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Jessie Pons)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 19 11:51:16 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Editions Treatises on Architcture
Message-ID: <a83ba14ee2cf9c35ee017d740947542d@rub.de>

Dear list members,

One of my students is working on sacred architecture in Kerala and would 
like to examine both pan-Indian and regional adaptations of treatises on 
architecture. I would be very grateful to you if you could suggest the 
best editions to  study the following:

1. Architecture of Manasara
2. Mayamata - An Indian Treatise on Housing Architecture
3. Tantra Samuccayam
4. ?ilparatna

The two latter being regional adaptations of Kerala.

Many thanks in advance for your helpful replies!

All the best,
Jessie Pons

-- 
Jun.-Prof. Dr. Jessie Pons
Professor for the History of South Asian Religions
CERES ? Centre for the Study of Religions
K?te-Hamburger-Kolleg ?Dynamics in the History of Religions between Asia 
and Europe"
Ruhr-Universit?t Bochum
Universit?tsstra?e 90a
44789 Bochum
Tel. 02 34 32 22955
E-Mail: jessie.pons at rub.de
Room 1/04





From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Tue Jun 25 10:35:31 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 19 10:35:31 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Editions Treatises on Architcture
In-Reply-To: <a83ba14ee2cf9c35ee017d740947542d@rub.de>
Message-ID: <714983F6-26E1-4298-9CC1-E76A01DBB376@uclouvain.be>

Here an article by

S. A. S. Sarma, ?A Survey of Works Relating to Kerala Architecture?, in Indian

Scientific Traditions (Professor K. N. Neelakanthan Elayath Felicitation Volume),

Calicut University Sanskrit Series n? 19, University of Calicut, 2006, p. 225-244 (there are other articles on Kerala architecture in the vol.),

giving the references for the texts you ask for


to which add for the MM the edition by

Bruno Dagens, ed. Mayamatam: Treatise of Housing, Architecture, and Iconography.
New Delhi: Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts and Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 1994, 2 volumes Kalamulasastra Series 15
[Reprint Delhi: IGNCA, 2000]
CCA Library
[Review K. Kunjunni Raja. Adyar Library Bulletin 59 (1995): 315]

and the recent edition of the

Devalayacandrika of Narayana Nambudiri (the tantrik text dealing with the construction of temples and images), along with an introd., Sanskrit text, ?Mohanabodhini? Hindi tr. & index of verses, tr. & ed. Shri Krishan ?Jugnu?. ? Delhi, Parimal, 2015, xiv+144p.,(32)col. pls., 23cm. (Parimal Sanskrit Sr; 145) ISBN 9788171105267


Most of the old editions of the TSS are on

 https://archive.org/details/Trivandrum_Sanskrit_Series_TSS


On the Tantrasamuccaya, see also

Tantrasamuccaya of Na?ra?yan?a : with the commentaries Vimars?ini?
of S?an?kara and Vivarana of Na?ra?yanas?isya; reprinted with an English
translation of the text = Tantrasamuccayah? / by N.P. Unni. -- First edition.
-- Delhi, India : New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2014.
        3 volumes (xcix, 1088, xii pages) : illustrations (black and white) ;
25 cm
        Text and commentary in Sanskrit; translation and introductory
matter in English.
        Compendium for Tantric rituals and rules for temple architecture
and sculpture.
        Includes indexes.
        ISBN 9788183152228 (set)


See also the important work of Schildt (Henri)

The Traditional Kerala Manor

Achitecture of a South Indian Cathusala House

Collection Indologie 117

Pondich?ry, EFEO/IFP. 2012. 474 p.


Le 25 juin 2019 ? 11:51, Jessie Pons via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Dear list members,

One of my students is working on sacred architecture in Kerala and would like to examine both pan-Indian and regional adaptations of treatises on architecture. I would be very grateful to you if you could suggest the best editions to  study the following:

1. Architecture of Manasara
2. Mayamata - An Indian Treatise on Housing Architecture
3. Tantra Samuccayam
4. ?ilparatna

The two latter being regional adaptations of Kerala.

Many thanks in advance for your helpful replies!

All the best,
Jessie Pons

--
Jun.-Prof. Dr. Jessie Pons
Professor for the History of South Asian Religions
CERES ? Centre for the Study of Religions
K?te-Hamburger-Kolleg ?Dynamics in the History of Religions between Asia and Europe"
Ruhr-Universit?t Bochum
Universit?tsstra?e 90a
44789 Bochum
Tel. 02 34 32 22955
E-Mail: jessie.pons at rub.de<mailto:jessie.pons at rub.de>
Room 1/04

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Tue Jun 25 11:42:22 2019
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 19 11:42:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Editions Treatises on Architcture
In-Reply-To: <714983F6-26E1-4298-9CC1-E76A01DBB376@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <E70652EB-96A2-479E-9152-214F3B7D32C4@uclouvain.be>

Since the attached article did not reach me back, I give the url on Archiv where the whole volume is available :

https://archive.org/details/IndianScientificTraditionsK.N.NikanthaElayathFelicitationVolumeUnithriN.V.P.Articles

Le 25 juin 2019 ? 12:35, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Here an article by

S. A. S. Sarma, ?A Survey of Works Relating to Kerala Architecture?, in Indian

Scientific Traditions (Professor K. N. Neelakanthan Elayath Felicitation Volume),

Calicut University Sanskrit Series n? 19, University of Calicut, 2006, p. 225-244 (there are other articles on Kerala architecture in the vol.),

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jun 25 12:15:44 2019
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 19 17:45:44 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebZAabhhD6iosK5K7CuN9W8d3n2kSSS-LVO9Jy08dp9Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYqurcqy_9GOkr5QWFBAMUGnGudc72GpeyuT6RcYEW9iA@mail.gmail.com>

Correction:

I wanted to say

Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against  scholars of
that political leaning with the organization sending the CFP is what is
objectionable in that approach.

not

Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against only scholars
of that political leaning with the organization sending the CFP is what is
objectionable in that approach.

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 12:14 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Dr Tyler Williams,
>
> Your post below has many expressions that deserve response.
>
> You accuse AAIS as an organisation that divides scholars studying Indic
> Civilization into "we Indians" and "they the Western". The very fact that
> the CFP is shared on this forum where a very big number of western scholars
> are members and it is inviting all the members to contribute to the
> conference, shows that no such attitude of only Indian no western
> participation in the study of Indic Civilization exists in the CFP or in
> the organization that shared it here.
>
> While the CFP is being posted by a scholar dedicated to the study of the
> discipline of History , you say that the CFP and the organization sharing
> it are opposed to the discipline of History. " Religious Studies" is a
> discipline that does not exist in any Indian university and exists only in
> the west. The person sharing the CFP has a PhD degree in that discipline.
> You say that the CFP and the organization sharing it are opposed to
> 'western' disciplines. You say that the organisation represented by the
> scholar sharing the CFP calls "History", a western discipline and is
> opposed to it while the fact is that she is a professor of that very
> discipline History.
>
> Your post characterizes and caricatures the Indology list as a forum of
> left leaning intellectuals who consider only the left leaning/ Marxist
> Indian scholars as "our Indian colleagues" . I don't think Indology list is
> such, though, there is a possibility of scholars with such a leaning being
> in good numbers here.
>
> More agonizing is the repeated use of words such as "harassment" and
> "violence" in your post. You say that this harassment and violence happens
> to " our" non-Maoist  "  Indian colleagues" because of conflating them with
> the " Maoist rebels ". You mention the word " Urban Naxals" which is the
> title of a recent book by Sri Vivek Agnihotri. That book starts with the
> description of an incident of violence against him. It is not clear whether
> the violence against him described there was the act of Maoist rebels are
> the Marxists who are not Maoist rebels but allowed they getting conflated
> with the Maoist rebels. That apart, such incidents prove who, in Indian
> academic institutions, for all the past decades after independence,  have
> been in a position of committing "harassment" and "violence" against those
> who disagree with them.
>
> In any case, singling out the "harassment" and "violence" against only
> scholars of a certain political leaning and ignoring harassment and
> violence against scholars of other kind of thinking is blatently visible in
> your post.  Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against
> only scholars of that political leaning with the organization sending the
> CFP is what is objectionable in that approach.
>
> You bring back the last WSC discussion saying , "in order to suggest that
> the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the quite literal
> form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*." after the
> organisers clarified that violence and not allowing were not facts and the
> discussion in that regard was closed here after that clarification.
>
> Your words
>
> "In other words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians"
> versus "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian
> knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites
> that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups."
>
> while putting into the mouth of the organizers the non-existing attitude
> of  "the argument  to be between "we Indians" versus "non-Indians," ",
>
> makes the perception
>
> "that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were
> produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other
> groups"
>
> to be a fact.
>
> What is the purpose of academic forums and conferences if it is not to
> discuss such fact-perception differences and such  claims which are
> contestable and debatable.
>
> You list one kind of post-colonial studies
>
> which has theorizations such as
>
> 1. colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried out by
> European *together with *members of elite South Asian communities,
>
>  2) due to that epistemic rupture it is no longer possible to access some
> kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge or understanding,
>
>
> as THE (only) post-colonial studies paradigm
>
> and don't show the diligence that other approaches to post-colonial
> studies are possible.
>
> It does not reflect nuanced understanding and intricate understanding of
> issues such as Orality and Literacy, history of accessibility of certain
> kinds of texts in comparison to the other kinds of texts due to the history
> of European scholarly attention to certain texts in comparison to the other
> kind of texts and the projection of that colonial and European lack of
> accessing and lesser prioritization as "silencing" by the authors of the
> texts accessed by the Europeans.
>
> Yes,   "academics have a responsibility to listen to marginalized and
> formerly silenced voices of history (and the present)"
>
> Paradigms alternative to  those of the post-colonial studies listed by you
> under your # 1 & 2 above,
>
> and countering views to the
>
> views such as
>
> "that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were
> produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other
> groups"
>
> that have been made into the global academic mainstream using the global
> political power
>
> are the ones currently globally marginalized  and global academics have
> responsibility to listen to these alternative views.
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:12 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I
>> must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed
>> "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology
>> listserve being used to promote this event.
>>
>> There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
>> project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
>> the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
>> aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
>> against our colleagues in India.
>>
>> The AAIS, per its website, states the reason for its existence thus:
>> until now, "Western" disciplines like history, philology, philosophy,
>> etcetera have been used to understand Indic material and are not sufficient
>> for the task; therefore a new academic program is necessary that uses
>> "Indic" knowledge systems to understand Indian material. This well-worn
>> nativist argument ignores two important things: first, systems of knowledge
>> like history, philology, philosophy, etcetera were practiced in South Asia
>> during the precolonial period-- a fact that many scholars of this list
>> demonstrate in their research-- and second, the fact that many scholars
>> working in so-called "Western" disciplines (because whether we work in
>> South Asian or other universities, we all have to work in existing
>> departments) actually use South Asian knowledge systems in their study of
>> texts, history, social phenomenon, and the like. The fact that many of us
>> were trained in South Asian institutions by traditionally-trained
>> scholars--or by non-Indian scholars well -steeped in things like nyaya,
>> kavyasastra, itihasa, etc.--should tell one that we do, in fact, take South
>> Asian knowledge systems seriously.
>>
>> The AAIS's charter and mission are, in fact, anti-intellectual and built
>> on highly dubious arguments. Like several similar organizations that have
>> sprung up over the last several years with the rise of Hindutva politics,
>> it appropriates the language of postcolonial studies while totally
>> rejecting both the theoretical and ethical imperatives of postcolonial
>> studies. Postcolonial studies argues 1) that colonialism (and its
>> epistemological violence) were carried out by European *together with*
>> members of elite South Asian communities, 2) due to that epistemic rupture
>> it is no longer possible to access some kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge
>> or understanding, and 3) academics have a responsibility to listen to
>> marginalized and formerly silenced voices of history (and the present).
>>
>> In contrast, the AAIS poses such vague and theoretically problematic
>> questions as "Would the academic presentation of the Indic civilization be
>> different if it had been the work of scholars who did not use Western
>> theories and categories?" and makes anti-historical assertions such as "The
>> term ?Indic? is a reference, not just to India as a modern contemporary
>> country, but to the civilization that has been known internationally and
>> historically by the river Indus. It refers to more than 5000 years of a
>> continuous civilization whose kernel is a unique knowledge system which is
>> beneficial to all humankind." The anti-historical, anti-intellectual, and
>> nationalist implications of this should be clear.
>>
>> Most worryingly, the AAIS appears to ignore the most fundamental tenets
>> of postcolonial criticism: to constantly and self-reflexively locate
>> oneself as a scholar in institutions and dynamics of power. Groups like the
>> AAIS imply that the only power differential is between "Western" scholars
>> and "Indian" natives; doing so requires eliding or ignoring the massive and
>> complicated relationships of power in South Asian societies. In other
>> words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians" versus
>> "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian knowledge
>> systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites that were
>> oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups.
>>
>> This dynamic came out nowhere more vividly than on this list (and others)
>> after the last WSC: those of the nativist Hindutva persuasion complained
>> that allowing women who had suffered marginalization in the
>> Sanskrit-learning community to speak about that marginalization was
>> anti-Indian and part of a global conspiracy to malign the Indian nation. In
>> this case, suppressing dissent *within* the Indian community in order to
>> suggest that the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the
>> quite literal form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*.
>>
>> Finally-- and I realize the seriousness of this claim-- the AAIS and
>> similar organizations ally with a politics that has encouraged the
>> marginalization, harassment, and even violence against our colleagues in
>> India, including colleagues on this list. The AAIS website specifically
>> singles out "Marxism" as one of the evils of "Western" scholarship; this is
>> (and has been) used as a dogwhistle to attack any left-leaning (or even
>> centrist) scholars working in India. A few of the AAIS board members
>> themselves have repeated and amplified calls for rooting out "urban
>> Naxals," a term that conflates left-leaning academics with Maoist rebels in
>> India. We are all only too aware of the real danger this kind of politics
>> poses for the lives and livelihoods of Indian colleagues.
>>
>> I apologize for using the space of the listserve for a polemic; I am just
>> tired of seeing the scholarly forum which Dominik and others have worked so
>> hard to build used for a purpose that is directly hostile to the work of so
>> many of us. The AAIS presents itself as a serious, progressive voice; I am
>> afraid that it is anything but.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Tyler Williams
>> University of Chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:30 AM Lavanya Vemsani via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>> Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us
>>> for the First Annual Conference.
>>> Please circulate the CFP widely.
>>> Thank you.
>>> Lavanya
>>>
>>>
>>> Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of
>>>
>>> American Academy of Indic Studies
>>>
>>>
>>> The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly,
>>> non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and
>>> students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to
>>> promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at
>>> www.AAIndicStudies.org <http://www.aaindicstudies.org>
>>>
>>> For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly
>>> presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We
>>> invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit
>>> their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic
>>> wisdom and traditions.
>>>
>>> The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the
>>> ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at
>>> large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and
>>> investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards
>>> postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal
>>> obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under
>>> consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal
>>> arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over
>>> the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process
>>> of postcolonialism.
>>>
>>> The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th
>>>
>>> Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020
>>>
>>> Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with
>>> https://www.naaas.org
>>>
>>> Conference Proceedings: To be announced.
>>>
>>> *Lavanya Vemsani*
>>> Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
>>> Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
>>> Shawnee State University
>>> President, *Ohio Academy of History *
>>> Co-founder, *American Academy of Indic Studies *
>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>> *American Journal of Indic Studies*
>>> Managing Editor
>>> *International Journal of Indic Religions *
>>> *Associate Editor *
>>> *-Canadian Journal of History *
>>> *-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs*
>>> http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 25 13:54:41 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 19 06:54:41 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze1o8bk=9poNrT5yRzmNcayOj3yFGKR4LHgifun_p+WSA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?
???????????? ????????? ???????????? ?????: ???????

As you are holding my hand, my fear of falling is gone. You are above and
below, and you are the support of all from all sides.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Wed Jun 26 06:36:34 2019
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 08:36:34 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Dr. Ayyadurai Dhamotharan (1935-2019)
Message-ID: <0197b448-4d62-ca58-a935-8073a54ee8a5@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

**********************************
BEGINNING OF FORWARDED MESSAGE
**********************************

Obituary
Dr. Ayyadurai Dhamotharan (1935-2019)

Dr. A. Dhamotharan, a Tamil scholar and former Lecturer of Tamil at 
Heidelberg University, passed away on Friday, the 14th of June 2019, at 
the age of 84 in his hometown Thirumoolasthanam, Kattumannarkoil, Tamil 
Nadu.

Dhamotharan completed his schooling in and around his native town and 
went to Annamalai University for higher studies. There, he earned his 
B.A. (Honours) in Tamil literature (1956-59). Then, serving as a 
lecturer of Tamil in a college for two years, he enrolled for Ph.D. 
under the guideship of Prof. V.I.Subramoniam, Department of Tamil, 
University of Kerala. His topic of research was ?The Language of 
Thirukkural?, a well-known classical text in Tamil. To which he applied 
the syntactic theory, Tagmemics, expounded by the American linguist 
Kenneth L. Pike, who was all helpful in sending research materials 
related to theoretical and applied Tagmemics. Dhamotharan submitted his 
Ph.D. thesis in 1966. The external examiner for his thesis was Prof. 
Kamil V. Zvelebil, who highly commended it. While Dhamotharan was 
working as a lecturer (1967-68) at the Centre for Advanced Studies in 
Linguistics in Annamalai University, his alma mater, he got an invite 
from the South Asia Institute to join the language faculty.

In 1969, Dr. Dhamotharan was appointed as Lecturer of Tamil at the South 
Asia Institute of Heidelberg University, Germany, by the then head of 
the Department of Indology Prof. Hermann Berger on the recommendation of 
the great Tamil and Dravidian scholar Kamil V. Zvelebil. With the 
appointment of Dr. Dhamotharan at Heidelberg University and Dr. P.R. 
Subramanian, Lecturer at Institute of Indology, University of Koeln 
(1972-83), Tamil Studies in Germany made a progress.

Dr. Dhamotharan worked at Heidelberg University for the next 30 years. 
He mastered the German language very quickly. During the ensuing three 
decades he taught Tamil to German students in the medium of German on 
all levels of the then Master?s program of Indology. While teaching 
Tamil in a German environment for so many years, Dr. Dhamotharan 
developed a fine sense of Tamil and German lexicality. He put this 
linguistic acquisition in use in many Tamil-German translation classes 
with texts of his favourite Tamil author Jeyakanthan for the great 
benefit of his students. He also started working on a German-Tamil 
dictionary. Unfortunately, this project could not be completed. During 
his time at Heidelberg University, Dr. Dhamotharan co-supervised all 
Tamil Ph.D. projects done at the South Asia Institute; for instance, the 
theses on Tamil guardian deities by Eveline Meyer, on Tamil 
reduplication by Thomas Malten, on the grammar of Old Tamil by Thomas 
Lehmann, and on the Tamil verbal participle and infinitive by Jacques 
Deigner. His main research interest was the editorial work of the 
medieval Tamil grammatical text Na???l and its various commentaries. 
But, first he painstakingly collected the Thirukkural quotes employed by 
various commentators. He classified those quotes according to the 
purpose for which they were cited, and his work got published in 1970. 
Having published also his Grammar of Thirukkural (South Asian Studies 
No.5, University of Heidelberg, 1972) and a Bibliography of Tamil 
dictionaries in 1978, Dr. Dhamotharan prepared two fine editions of the 
Tamil grammatical text Na???l with the commentary by K??a?kaittampir?? 
(considered lost, till he found the mss at British library and copied it 
in his own, highly legible handwriting and published it as it is) in 
1980 and with the Viruttiyurai commentary by Ca?karanamaciv?yar (with 
additions of Civa???a Mu?ivar) in 1999. In his editorial work he was 
highly accurate and meticulous and showed his high degree of exact 
scholarship. In his 1999 edition of Na???l, Dhamotharan introduced a new 
feature in Tamil text editing and the format was well received in Tamil 
Nadu.

In the year 2000, Dr. Dhamotharan retired from Heidelberg University at 
the age of 65 and one year later in 2001 he returned to Tamil Nadu. 
Known for his great expertise in Tamil text editing, he was invited by 
the Central Institute of Classical Tamil, Chennai, to participate in 
their project of preparing definite (critical) editions of classical 
Tamil texts.

The task of preparing a critical edition of the 8th century text 
I?aiya??r Ka?aviyal was entrusted to him, which he did diligently by 
comparing the available palm-leaf manuscripts (published in 2013). He 
worked as a consulting editor for the Tamil Lexicon revision project by 
Madras University and also for the revised and enlarged edition of 
Cre-A's Dictionary of Contemporary Tamil (2008). He served as Honorary 
Professor at the International Institute of Tamil Studies (2001) and as 
a trustee of Mozhi, A Trust for Resource Development for Language and 
Culture, Chennai (2003?07). He brought out another edition of 
K??a?kaittampir???s commentary on Na???l with additions and notes 
(Cre-A, 2010).

Though he had a good grounding in modern descriptive linguistics, his 
outlook and approach were more historical which helped him delve into 
the grammatical traditions of Tamil medieval commentaries.

Because of illness he lived the last few years of his life secluded at 
his native place in Tamil Nadu. He will always be remembered as an 
excellent and patient teacher, a fine and erudite scholar and a good 
friend to many Tamil students and scholars both in Germany and India. He 
is survived by his wife and two sons. He has been blessed with 
granddaughters and grandsons.

Dr. Thomas Lehmann
South Asia Institute, Heidelberg

Dr. P.R. Subramanian
Mozhi Trust, Chennai

**********************************
END OF FORWARDED MESSAGE
**********************************


-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, France)

https://twitter.com/JLC1956






From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Wed Jun 26 07:32:09 2019
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 09:32:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers: 3rd EAAA conference, Ljubljana 16.-20. September 2020
In-Reply-To: <0197b448-4d62-ca58-a935-8073a54ee8a5@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <AD429416-29B5-4A22-8425-E325CF9393F2@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

please find attached the call for papers for the 3rd conference of the European Association for Asian Art and Archaeology, to be held in Ljubljana from 16.-20. September 2020. The deadline for paper and panel proposals is 15th August 2019.

With kind regards,

Julia Hegewald.



Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professor of Oriental Art History
Head of Department
University of Bonn
Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA)
Department of Asian and Islamic Art History
Adenauerallee 10
53113 Bonn
Germany

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0049-228-73 7213
Fax. 0049-228-73 4042







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From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 09:50:21 2019
From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 15:20:21 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYqurcqy_9GOkr5QWFBAMUGnGudc72GpeyuT6RcYEW9iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHRgzy3Fxs56RXmPnHMbAwt6s2GTykXvGREL32Gb+HVV-ZNqrw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr. Paturi,

Thank you for your reply to my message concerning the American Academy of
Indic Studies (AAIS); your reply illustrates two of the major reasons that
other colleagues and I feel that a productive scholarly engagement with the
AAIS and similar organizations is not possible.

The first reason is that the AAIS and its organizers are not speaking or
acting "in good faith": the presence of numerous contradictions and
inconsistencies in the AAIS's own statement regarding its aims, methods,
and broader intellectual project and its misleading use of scholarly terms,
not to mention the fact that it takes positions on politically-charged
topics while declaring itself "non-political", suggests that it is not
being transparent about its scholarly, intellectual, or political
orientation and program. I do not believe that it is possible to have a
rational, intellectual dialogue with organizations or individuals that
attempt to obfuscate their own ideological and intellectual commitments and
that willfully distort their interlocutors' statements and positions.

Similarly, your response to my statement does not engage substantively with
any of the issues I have raised nor does it offer a nuanced reading of my
statements, but rather attempts to invert their meaning through the tired
and rather transparent trick of suggesting that those who point to social
or ideological divisions are in fact trying to create those divisions. In
the US, we are familiar with this hallmark of right-wing propaganda through
examples like "Advocates of racial justice are racists because they always
bring up race," while those in India will be familiar with the right-wing
cliche that "Dalit activists are casteist because they see caste in
everything." Such a bad-faith reading and response to my statements hardly
requires any further analysis. At the same time, your writing on other
public forums
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/cbthNAM0jNc/ldkQ5bpNBgAJ> about
supposed divisions between "Indian" and "Western" academics reflects that
you do, in fact, believe in this distinction
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/cbthNAM0jNc/5L8OKuRwBgAJ>,
though you demure from acknowledging it here. Again, it is difficult for me
to see this as a dialogue made in good faith.

The second reason for our anxieties regarding the AAIS is the lack of
respect shown by some (though, it must be said, not all) of its organizers
for basic collegiality and freedom of speech and thought. These individuals
have clearly stated on public forums their preference for a Hindu
majoritarian state over India's current structure of a secular republic,
their belief that secularism produces bad scholarship and that left-leaning
Indian intellectuals are part of a Maoist-led conspiracy to destabilize
India; they have accused their colleagues and their own students of
sedition, and have tried to publicly justify violence against Indian
university faculty and students at the hands of both the state and also
non-state actors like the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad.

Similarly, your response avoids the question of violence and harassment of
these faculty and students by suggesting that a condemnation of violence
against a group must necessarily condemn violence against all groups at all
times in order to be authentic. This is just another example of the
fallacious "whatabout-ism" (e.g. "All lives matter" versus "Black lives
matter") that is the hallmark of right-wing and fascist movements of the
present day. This kind of equivocation reflects such a deep level of
cynicism that I frankly have nothing to say about it.

In summary, until the AAIS and other such organizations demonstrate that
they can act in good faith and with respect for the rights of all members
of the academic community, I cannot see a possibility for fruitful
intellectual engagement with them. Similarly, you and I have such vastly
different notions of what constitutes intellectual honesty and basic human
decency that I do not believe that we can have a productive exchange or
correspondence; therefore I suggest that we end this thread here, unless
anyone else has something to add.

Sincerely,

Tyler Williams

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 5:46 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Correction:
>
> I wanted to say
>
> Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against  scholars of
> that political leaning with the organization sending the CFP is what is
> objectionable in that approach.
>
> not
>
> Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against only scholars
> of that political leaning with the organization sending the CFP is what is
> objectionable in that approach.
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 12:14 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Dr Tyler Williams,
>>
>> Your post below has many expressions that deserve response.
>>
>> You accuse AAIS as an organisation that divides scholars studying Indic
>> Civilization into "we Indians" and "they the Western". The very fact that
>> the CFP is shared on this forum where a very big number of western scholars
>> are members and it is inviting all the members to contribute to the
>> conference, shows that no such attitude of only Indian no western
>> participation in the study of Indic Civilization exists in the CFP or in
>> the organization that shared it here.
>>
>> While the CFP is being posted by a scholar dedicated to the study of the
>> discipline of History , you say that the CFP and the organization sharing
>> it are opposed to the discipline of History. " Religious Studies" is a
>> discipline that does not exist in any Indian university and exists only in
>> the west. The person sharing the CFP has a PhD degree in that discipline.
>> You say that the CFP and the organization sharing it are opposed to
>> 'western' disciplines. You say that the organisation represented by the
>> scholar sharing the CFP calls "History", a western discipline and is
>> opposed to it while the fact is that she is a professor of that very
>> discipline History.
>>
>> Your post characterizes and caricatures the Indology list as a forum of
>> left leaning intellectuals who consider only the left leaning/ Marxist
>> Indian scholars as "our Indian colleagues" . I don't think Indology list is
>> such, though, there is a possibility of scholars with such a leaning being
>> in good numbers here.
>>
>> More agonizing is the repeated use of words such as "harassment" and
>> "violence" in your post. You say that this harassment and violence happens
>> to " our" non-Maoist  "  Indian colleagues" because of conflating them with
>> the " Maoist rebels ". You mention the word " Urban Naxals" which is the
>> title of a recent book by Sri Vivek Agnihotri. That book starts with the
>> description of an incident of violence against him. It is not clear whether
>> the violence against him described there was the act of Maoist rebels are
>> the Marxists who are not Maoist rebels but allowed they getting conflated
>> with the Maoist rebels. That apart, such incidents prove who, in Indian
>> academic institutions, for all the past decades after independence,  have
>> been in a position of committing "harassment" and "violence" against those
>> who disagree with them.
>>
>> In any case, singling out the "harassment" and "violence" against only
>> scholars of a certain political leaning and ignoring harassment and
>> violence against scholars of other kind of thinking is blatently visible in
>> your post.  Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against
>> only scholars of that political leaning with the organization sending the
>> CFP is what is objectionable in that approach.
>>
>> You bring back the last WSC discussion saying , "in order to suggest that
>> the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the quite literal
>> form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*." after the
>> organisers clarified that violence and not allowing were not facts and the
>> discussion in that regard was closed here after that clarification.
>>
>> Your words
>>
>> "In other words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians"
>> versus "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian
>> knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites
>> that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups."
>>
>> while putting into the mouth of the organizers the non-existing attitude
>> of  "the argument  to be between "we Indians" versus "non-Indians," ",
>>
>> makes the perception
>>
>> "that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us,
>> were produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing
>> other groups"
>>
>> to be a fact.
>>
>> What is the purpose of academic forums and conferences if it is not to
>> discuss such fact-perception differences and such  claims which are
>> contestable and debatable.
>>
>> You list one kind of post-colonial studies
>>
>> which has theorizations such as
>>
>> 1. colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried out by
>> European *together with *members of elite South Asian communities,
>>
>>  2) due to that epistemic rupture it is no longer possible to access some
>> kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge or understanding,
>>
>>
>> as THE (only) post-colonial studies paradigm
>>
>> and don't show the diligence that other approaches to post-colonial
>> studies are possible.
>>
>> It does not reflect nuanced understanding and intricate understanding of
>> issues such as Orality and Literacy, history of accessibility of certain
>> kinds of texts in comparison to the other kinds of texts due to the history
>> of European scholarly attention to certain texts in comparison to the other
>> kind of texts and the projection of that colonial and European lack of
>> accessing and lesser prioritization as "silencing" by the authors of the
>> texts accessed by the Europeans.
>>
>> Yes,   "academics have a responsibility to listen to marginalized and
>> formerly silenced voices of history (and the present)"
>>
>> Paradigms alternative to  those of the post-colonial studies listed by
>> you under your # 1 & 2 above,
>>
>> and countering views to the
>>
>> views such as
>>
>> "that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us,
>> were produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing
>> other groups"
>>
>> that have been made into the global academic mainstream using the global
>> political power
>>
>> are the ones currently globally marginalized  and global academics have
>> responsibility to listen to these alternative views.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:12 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I
>>> must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed
>>> "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology
>>> listserve being used to promote this event.
>>>
>>> There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
>>> project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
>>> the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
>>> aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
>>> against our colleagues in India.
>>>
>>> The AAIS, per its website, states the reason for its existence thus:
>>> until now, "Western" disciplines like history, philology, philosophy,
>>> etcetera have been used to understand Indic material and are not sufficient
>>> for the task; therefore a new academic program is necessary that uses
>>> "Indic" knowledge systems to understand Indian material. This well-worn
>>> nativist argument ignores two important things: first, systems of knowledge
>>> like history, philology, philosophy, etcetera were practiced in South Asia
>>> during the precolonial period-- a fact that many scholars of this list
>>> demonstrate in their research-- and second, the fact that many scholars
>>> working in so-called "Western" disciplines (because whether we work in
>>> South Asian or other universities, we all have to work in existing
>>> departments) actually use South Asian knowledge systems in their study of
>>> texts, history, social phenomenon, and the like. The fact that many of us
>>> were trained in South Asian institutions by traditionally-trained
>>> scholars--or by non-Indian scholars well -steeped in things like nyaya,
>>> kavyasastra, itihasa, etc.--should tell one that we do, in fact, take South
>>> Asian knowledge systems seriously.
>>>
>>> The AAIS's charter and mission are, in fact, anti-intellectual and built
>>> on highly dubious arguments. Like several similar organizations that have
>>> sprung up over the last several years with the rise of Hindutva politics,
>>> it appropriates the language of postcolonial studies while totally
>>> rejecting both the theoretical and ethical imperatives of postcolonial
>>> studies. Postcolonial studies argues 1) that colonialism (and its
>>> epistemological violence) were carried out by European *together with*
>>> members of elite South Asian communities, 2) due to that epistemic rupture
>>> it is no longer possible to access some kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge
>>> or understanding, and 3) academics have a responsibility to listen to
>>> marginalized and formerly silenced voices of history (and the present).
>>>
>>> In contrast, the AAIS poses such vague and theoretically problematic
>>> questions as "Would the academic presentation of the Indic civilization be
>>> different if it had been the work of scholars who did not use Western
>>> theories and categories?" and makes anti-historical assertions such as "The
>>> term ?Indic? is a reference, not just to India as a modern contemporary
>>> country, but to the civilization that has been known internationally and
>>> historically by the river Indus. It refers to more than 5000 years of a
>>> continuous civilization whose kernel is a unique knowledge system which is
>>> beneficial to all humankind." The anti-historical, anti-intellectual, and
>>> nationalist implications of this should be clear.
>>>
>>> Most worryingly, the AAIS appears to ignore the most fundamental tenets
>>> of postcolonial criticism: to constantly and self-reflexively locate
>>> oneself as a scholar in institutions and dynamics of power. Groups like the
>>> AAIS imply that the only power differential is between "Western" scholars
>>> and "Indian" natives; doing so requires eliding or ignoring the massive and
>>> complicated relationships of power in South Asian societies. In other
>>> words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians" versus
>>> "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian knowledge
>>> systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites that were
>>> oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups.
>>>
>>> This dynamic came out nowhere more vividly than on this list (and
>>> others) after the last WSC: those of the nativist Hindutva persuasion
>>> complained that allowing women who had suffered marginalization in the
>>> Sanskrit-learning community to speak about that marginalization was
>>> anti-Indian and part of a global conspiracy to malign the Indian nation. In
>>> this case, suppressing dissent *within* the Indian community in order
>>> to suggest that the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the
>>> quite literal form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*.
>>>
>>> Finally-- and I realize the seriousness of this claim-- the AAIS and
>>> similar organizations ally with a politics that has encouraged the
>>> marginalization, harassment, and even violence against our colleagues in
>>> India, including colleagues on this list. The AAIS website specifically
>>> singles out "Marxism" as one of the evils of "Western" scholarship; this is
>>> (and has been) used as a dogwhistle to attack any left-leaning (or even
>>> centrist) scholars working in India. A few of the AAIS board members
>>> themselves have repeated and amplified calls for rooting out "urban
>>> Naxals," a term that conflates left-leaning academics with Maoist rebels in
>>> India. We are all only too aware of the real danger this kind of politics
>>> poses for the lives and livelihoods of Indian colleagues.
>>>
>>> I apologize for using the space of the listserve for a polemic; I am
>>> just tired of seeing the scholarly forum which Dominik and others have
>>> worked so hard to build used for a purpose that is directly hostile to the
>>> work of so many of us. The AAIS presents itself as a serious, progressive
>>> voice; I am afraid that it is anything but.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Tyler Williams
>>> University of Chicago
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:30 AM Lavanya Vemsani via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello All,
>>>> Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us
>>>> for the First Annual Conference.
>>>> Please circulate the CFP widely.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Lavanya
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of
>>>>
>>>> American Academy of Indic Studies
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly,
>>>> non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and
>>>> students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to
>>>> promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at
>>>> www.AAIndicStudies.org <http://www.aaindicstudies.org>
>>>>
>>>> For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly
>>>> presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We
>>>> invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit
>>>> their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic
>>>> wisdom and traditions.
>>>>
>>>> The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the
>>>> ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at
>>>> large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and
>>>> investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards
>>>> postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal
>>>> obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under
>>>> consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal
>>>> arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over
>>>> the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process
>>>> of postcolonialism.
>>>>
>>>> The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th
>>>>
>>>> Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020
>>>>
>>>> Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with
>>>> https://www.naaas.org
>>>>
>>>> Conference Proceedings: To be announced.
>>>>
>>>> *Lavanya Vemsani*
>>>> Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
>>>> Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
>>>> Shawnee State University
>>>> President, *Ohio Academy of History *
>>>> Co-founder, *American Academy of Indic Studies *
>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>> *American Journal of Indic Studies*
>>>> Managing Editor
>>>> *International Journal of Indic Religions *
>>>> *Associate Editor *
>>>> *-Canadian Journal of History *
>>>> *-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs*
>>>> http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>


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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 11:27:54 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 13:27:54 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
Message-ID: <CALOY_zEMpNs87z_XspsRJGkcoYK0P=7=d==A6R0mZ5Bz8o0cUA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear listfolk,

Seems a just-begun draft made it to my outbox. Anyway, this will make
my analysis a lot shorter and more readable.

The many Sanskritists and other ivory-tower-dwellers on this list will
not like the irruption of politics into their lofty discipline. But
like it or not, Indology just happens to be far more politicized than
e.g. Sinology. So I for one don't mind accepting Tyler Williams'
apologies for troubling us with the politics of it all. And he in turn
shouldn't mind comments on his position, by Nagaraj and now by me,
especially since he chooses to burden this list with an in-your-face
allegation against a fellow list member.

>With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology listserve being used to promote this event.<

He surely hasn't missed his entre?e. Right away, he leaves us in no
doubt about where he stands. It is customary for a certain ideological
school, the self-styled SJWs, to deny its adversaries legitimacy for
not only the contents but even for the definitional status of their
"publications". As a marked "scholar" with a "PhD" who writes "books"
and "papers", I recognize from afar the political implications of the
expression "conference". As if it were anything else than a
conference. And I don't get disappointed, for the next part of the
opening sentence already is a request for deplatforming his chosen
adversary, -- deplatforming being the absolute favourite in very that
school's armoury. That just begs to be "problematized".


>There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence against our colleagues in India.<

"Even violence"? My oh my, what have we got here on this list?
Lavanya, is that you?

But I do know of a target of Leftist violence, viz. Vivek Agnihotri,
the coiner of the term "Urban Naxal", to which Williams objects. It is
a verifiable fact that several Leftist public figures, from Sanjay
Dutt on down, have physically made common cause with terrorists; and
that hundreds have verbally supported terrorists. Personally I think
that that is allowed, you could e.g. give reasoned arguments for
Kashmiri separatism all while this cause is equally defended with
terror by others. But to oppose it is equally permitted, and it seems
Hindus are no longer taking it lying down and have joined the battle
of discourse. As an ex-Marxist, I think the adoption of such colourful
fighting terms tends to be a crucial moment in the history of an
emancipation movement.

And "Hindutva" project? The story of this recent "Indic" movement is
precisely a concern to distance themselves from the legitimate
"Hindutva" crowd, meaning the HMS and Sangh Parivar, who swear by
"nationalism". The more successful the Parivar has become politically,
the hazier and clumsier it has become ideologically, so it is facing
several budding alternatives within Hindu politics. A first paper of
mine about this is already 8 years old
(https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/08/hindu-activism-outside-sangh.html),
but has never made any dent in the standard narrative.

Most "experts" on the subject make a very loose, pamphlet-like use of
the term Hindutva. Yet, it has a precise definition, given by the
founder himself. A fast criterion for objectivity in reporting, and a
fortiori in scholarship, is using the terms which the people
themselves use for themselves, with any qualifiers being separate and
made recognizable as such. The context in which VD Savarkar started
the political use of this term for "Hinduness" (coined in 19th-century
Bengal in the same sense) in 1923, was nationalism, and hence the only
permissible extension of its meaning is as "Hindu nationalism",
identified with the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sangh Parivar. However,
the story of this recent "Indic" mouvance is precisely to keep a
distance from it.

I entirely agree that even with this "Indic" critique of "Western
Indology", a few things are seriously deficient. But a serious
Indologist will recognize this as one voice in an array of criticism
of Indology per se (see e.g.
https://www.academia.edu/14688786/The_lost_honour_of_India_Studies).
In particular, the great interest Western India-watchers take in class
conflict within Hindu society, certainly comes in for a suspicion of
neo-colonialism. Exploiting inter-native conflicts was a prime
stratagem in colonization, e.g. Hernan Cortes conquered Mexico from
the Aztecs by allying with disgruntled other tribes. And indeed, the
"Breaking India" forces (such as the Christian Missionaries) extol
this conflict beyond all proportion, thus making their own project of
conquest ("rich harvest of souls" -- Pope JP II) invisible, at least
to na?ve or wilfully blind observers.

Indeed, "colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried
out by European together with members of elite South Asian
communities",--and, if the colonialist so chose, also with other
agents, such as members of the Depressed Classes, e.g. Dr. Ambedkar
serving on the Viceroy's council. The power struggle is indeed more
complex than the native/foreign binary of the Indics, but also more
complex than the "good subalterns plus their Western sympathizers vs.
the ugly evil Brahmins" of the Indian Left and its Western sponsors
(examples on request).

Finally, I note the over-confident condemnation of the reference to
"more than 5000 years of a continuous civilization" as an
"anti-historical assertion". To the extent that this hints at the
Aryan Invasion Theory, so dear to the hearts of the Breaking India
forces, I will comply right away with the desire of most list members
not to re-open te debate on this old saw.

Kind regards,


Dr. Koenraad Elst, neither Hindu nor nationalist





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jun 26 13:55:20 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 06:55:20 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzc+N0uCv6zhWAsCu=x0fELwhytc1cjKD8VnBdTocaWkVw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ????: ?
????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???????

I am where Krishna is and Krishna is where I am. If Krishna is near me,
then the Gokula is around me.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Wed Jun 26 14:37:44 2019
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 14:37:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query
Message-ID: <56D5F44E-0A2B-4D79-AF90-C25E744D6023@austin.utexas.edu>

Dear Friends:

I came across this reference, and I cannot trace it either in the Amarako?a or anywhere else. Can anyone help?

??? ? ???????: ????????????????????????? ???????

Patrick

Here is the larger context:

???? ???????????????????????????????????: ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ? ????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????? ? ??? ? ???????: ????????????????????????? ??????? ? ??????? ?
??????????????? ??????? ?????????????? ? (YVai 8.3.14)
??????? ?


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jun 26 16:24:01 2019
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 11:24:01 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_A_question_on_gha=E1=B9=ADik=C4=81s?=
Message-ID: <4990923D-ECDA-4AC8-A41B-7E97063241EB@aol.com>

Dear Scholars,

 

 

I remember? reading a discussion about how examinations were conducted in a typical gha?ik?. Each question was written on a palm leaf and many such palm leaves were put inside a pot. When a student came to be tested, a palm leaf was pulled from the pot and the student was asked the question written on the palm leaf. 

 

Unfortunately, I have lost the reference to this discussion. Does anybody on the list know the source?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan



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From palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jun 26 16:55:34 2019
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 11:55:34 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A_question_on_gha=E1=B9=ADik=C4=81s?=
Message-ID: <735160D0-D616-4C90-B89D-B6305E88B81C@aol.com>

Dear Scholars,

 

I found the lost reference.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
Reply-To: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappant <palaniappa at aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 11:24 AM
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] A question on gha?ik?s

 

Dear Scholars,

 

 

I remember  reading a discussion about how examinations were conducted in a typical gha?ik?. Each question was written on a palm leaf and many such palm leaves were put inside a pot. When a student came to be tested, a palm leaf was pulled from the pot and the student was asked the question written on the palm leaf. 

 

Unfortunately, I have lost the reference to this discussion. Does anybody on the list know the source?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) 



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 03:20:44 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 19 21:20:44 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A_question_on_gha=E1=B9=ADik=C4=81s?=
In-Reply-To: <735160D0-D616-4C90-B89D-B6305E88B81C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcYu-ybAvZtFDBtLPRr+wD+KWH5KFxbUORtYSwSDmDz8w@mail.gmail.com>

Where was it?


On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 at 10:56, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Scholars,
>
>
>
> I found the lost reference.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Palaniappan
>
>
>
> *From: *INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Reply-To: *Sudalaimuthu Palaniappant <palaniappa at aol.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 11:24 AM
> *To: *Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *[INDOLOGY] A question on gha?ik?s
>
>
>
> Dear Scholars,
>
>
>
>
>
> I remember  reading a discussion about how examinations were conducted in
> a typical gha?ik?. Each question was written on a palm leaf and many such
> palm leaves were put inside a pot. When a student came to be tested, a palm
> leaf was pulled from the pot and the student was asked the question written
> on the palm leaf.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I have lost the reference to this discussion. Does anybody
> on the list know the source?
>
>
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Palaniappan
>
> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages
> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where
> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jun 27 13:09:35 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 19 06:09:35 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfkmtWYd+0JtHafLhfhaC0xXbCkrGEpoXDeT=s9OaQ01w@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????????? ????????? ?????: ?????? ???????? ???? ?
????? ???? ???????? ????????????: ???: ???????

Krishna is beauty incarnate. Who in this world can compete with him. Cupid
who was burnt into ashes by Shiva was brought back to life by Krishna.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From harshadehejia at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 27 19:58:47 2019
From: harshadehejia at hotmail.com (Harsha Dehejia)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 19 19:58:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Museum
Message-ID: <BY5PR19MB335009E47330FAE1BAF31BCAA0FD0@BY5PR19MB3350.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Friends:

While we have references to chitrashalas or a gallery of paintings, and in medieval India, as in Bundi for example, we have rooms in the fort where every inch is painted and it looks like a picture gallery, is there any reference to Museums, as we know it today, in ancient India?

Kind regards,

Harsha
Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia
Indic Studies, College of the Humanities
Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Thu Jun 27 20:42:47 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 19 14:42:47 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
In-Reply-To: <CALOY_zEMpNs87z_XspsRJGkcoYK0P=7=d==A6R0mZ5Bz8o0cUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAr6cH97h0ykF10x2KTRbcrA=ho9S4XrPii3AZGDP6NtQ9jdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

Rather than continue this conversation with politically charged attacks
like " self-styled SJW
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior>s" I would like to
bring to your attention that one of the founding board members of AAIS has
deep connections to the efforts to shut down academic freedom and
integrity.

One of the founding board members of AAIS is also on the board of Nalanda
University in Bihar, India. I taught at Nalanda several years ago, helping
to found the School of Buddhist Studies, Philosophy, and Comparative
Religion. There I taught several courses -- Sanskrit, courses on Religious
Studies theories and methods -- most importantly, The History and Politics
of Yoga. After my contract was not renewed and I was given no reason, I had
to argue with the university about my final pay (which I have never
received). In the course of that fight I contacted every member of the
Nalanda board. Only one ever responded. Several months after I was supposed
to receive my final pay (for July 2017) I woke up to an email from a
journalist asking me if I had any response to Ram Madhav's tweet
<https://twitter.com/rammadhavbjp/status/906363607541092357?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E906363607541092357&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fscroll.in%2Farticle%2F850780%2Fwhy-was-bjp-s-ram-madhav-stunned-to-hear-that-nalanda-had-politics-of-yoga-taught-by-a-foreigner>
about my course. (You can see the many awful things that were said about me
below, what you cannot see are the private messages I received threatening
rape and death if I ever returned to India). You can read more about this
incident here
<https://scroll.in/article/850780/why-was-bjp-s-ram-madhav-stunned-to-hear-that-nalanda-had-politics-of-yoga-taught-by-a-foreigner>
and
here
<https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/nalanda-threat-to-ex-teacher/cid/1497375>
.

In that second link you will see that I was ordered to apologize for
speaking up for myself and issued a veiled threat of "appropriate action"
if I continued to speak about this issue. I again wrote to many Nalanda
board members, including one of the founding board members of AAIS. Again,
I received no response. I have invited that same board member to my talks
at several conferences, they have not come to my talks or responded in any
way.

I will also note that this board member joined the Nalanda board after an
RSS-linked administration was put into place. That board member certainly
did not speak up for academic integrity at that or any other point. I am
offended that an organization would publish a conference listing on this
list of international scholars when one of its own board members remained
silent (and in my mind complicit) with these threats.

Nalanda has now lost nearly all its foreign faculty (and students from my
understanding). This is, of course, what the administration wanted. I am
not surprised by their actions but I am disheartened that not a single
member of their board, full of esteemed academics, did not at least speak
out against the violent threats made toward me. I am angry that not one of
them spoke up for academic freedom.

There is your clear link between AAIS and Hindutva.
Best,

Patricia Sauthoff

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 5:28 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear listfolk,
>
> Seems a just-begun draft made it to my outbox. Anyway, this will make
> my analysis a lot shorter and more readable.
>
> The many Sanskritists and other ivory-tower-dwellers on this list will
> not like the irruption of politics into their lofty discipline. But
> like it or not, Indology just happens to be far more politicized than
> e.g. Sinology. So I for one don't mind accepting Tyler Williams'
> apologies for troubling us with the politics of it all. And he in turn
> shouldn't mind comments on his position, by Nagaraj and now by me,
> especially since he chooses to burden this list with an in-your-face
> allegation against a fellow list member.
>
> >With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I
> must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed
> "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology
> listserve being used to promote this event.<
>
> He surely hasn't missed his entr?e. Right away, he leaves us in no
> doubt about where he stands. It is customary for a certain ideological
> school, the self-styled SJWs, to deny its adversaries legitimacy for
> not only the contents but even for the definitional status of their
> "publications". As a marked "scholar" with a "PhD" who writes "books"
> and "papers", I recognize from afar the political implications of the
> expression "conference". As if it were anything else than a
> conference. And I don't get disappointed, for the next part of the
> opening sentence already is a request for deplatforming his chosen
> adversary, -- deplatforming being the absolute favourite in very that
> school's armoury. That just begs to be "problematized".
>
>
> >There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
> project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
> the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
> aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
> against our colleagues in India.<
>
> "Even violence"? My oh my, what have we got here on this list?
> Lavanya, is that you?
>
> But I do know of a target of Leftist violence, viz. Vivek Agnihotri,
> the coiner of the term "Urban Naxal", to which Williams objects. It is
> a verifiable fact that several Leftist public figures, from Sanjay
> Dutt on down, have physically made common cause with terrorists; and
> that hundreds have verbally supported terrorists. Personally I think
> that that is allowed, you could e.g. give reasoned arguments for
> Kashmiri separatism all while this cause is equally defended with
> terror by others. But to oppose it is equally permitted, and it seems
> Hindus are no longer taking it lying down and have joined the battle
> of discourse. As an ex-Marxist, I think the adoption of such colourful
> fighting terms tends to be a crucial moment in the history of an
> emancipation movement.
>
> And "Hindutva" project? The story of this recent "Indic" movement is
> precisely a concern to distance themselves from the legitimate
> "Hindutva" crowd, meaning the HMS and Sangh Parivar, who swear by
> "nationalism". The more successful the Parivar has become politically,
> the hazier and clumsier it has become ideologically, so it is facing
> several budding alternatives within Hindu politics. A first paper of
> mine about this is already 8 years old
> (
> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/08/hindu-activism-outside-sangh.html
> ),
> but has never made any dent in the standard narrative.
>
> Most "experts" on the subject make a very loose, pamphlet-like use of
> the term Hindutva. Yet, it has a precise definition, given by the
> founder himself. A fast criterion for objectivity in reporting, and a
> fortiori in scholarship, is using the terms which the people
> themselves use for themselves, with any qualifiers being separate and
> made recognizable as such. The context in which VD Savarkar started
> the political use of this term for "Hinduness" (coined in 19th-century
> Bengal in the same sense) in 1923, was nationalism, and hence the only
> permissible extension of its meaning is as "Hindu nationalism",
> identified with the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sangh Parivar. However,
> the story of this recent "Indic" mouvance is precisely to keep a
> distance from it.
>
> I entirely agree that even with this "Indic" critique of "Western
> Indology", a few things are seriously deficient. But a serious
> Indologist will recognize this as one voice in an array of criticism
> of Indology per se (see e.g.
> https://www.academia.edu/14688786/The_lost_honour_of_India_Studies).
> In particular, the great interest Western India-watchers take in class
> conflict within Hindu society, certainly comes in for a suspicion of
> neo-colonialism. Exploiting inter-native conflicts was a prime
> stratagem in colonization, e.g. Hernan Cortes conquered Mexico from
> the Aztecs by allying with disgruntled other tribes. And indeed, the
> "Breaking India" forces (such as the Christian Missionaries) extol
> this conflict beyond all proportion, thus making their own project of
> conquest ("rich harvest of souls" -- Pope JP II) invisible, at least
> to na?ve or wilfully blind observers.
>
> Indeed, "colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried
> out by European together with members of elite South Asian
> communities",--and, if the colonialist so chose, also with other
> agents, such as members of the Depressed Classes, e.g. Dr. Ambedkar
> serving on the Viceroy's council. The power struggle is indeed more
> complex than the native/foreign binary of the Indics, but also more
> complex than the "good subalterns plus their Western sympathizers vs.
> the ugly evil Brahmins" of the Indian Left and its Western sponsors
> (examples on request).
>
> Finally, I note the over-confident condemnation of the reference to
> "more than 5000 years of a continuous civilization" as an
> "anti-historical assertion". To the extent that this hints at the
> Aryan Invasion Theory, so dear to the hearts of the Breaking India
> forces, I will comply right away with the desire of most list members
> not to re-open te debate on this old saw.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst, neither Hindu nor nationalist
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada


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From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 21:35:53 2019
From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 19 21:35:53 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
In-Reply-To: <CAPAr6cH97h0ykF10x2KTRbcrA=ho9S4XrPii3AZGDP6NtQ9jdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2106259683.987549.1561671353184@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Colleagues,
Some time ago, I was asked to join the Board of AAIS by a friend and colleague whom I trust and regard highly. I let him know that I was too busy to do any actual work for the organization but was told that was not a problem, so I accepted the invitation.?
I clearly did not do due diligence, based on the emails of the last few days and Dr. Sauthoff's message of today, which narrates a truly horrifying experience to which no one should be subjected. A few days ago, I resigned from the Board and asked that my name be removed from the website. I see it has been removed from some places and is still present in others. I simply want it to be known that I do not support any of the political agendas described by Dr. Williams in his email and certainly not the behavior described by Dr.Sauthoff. Those of you who know me and are familiar with my work will know this to be the case. Those who do not will either need to take my word for it, or get to know me and my work, should you have the time and inclination.?
It's unfortunate that holding a positive view of traditional knowledge systems and philosophies and wishing to promote these can so easily get one embroiled in or associated with political agendas that one does not support. I know I am still learning this lesson.?
With sincere best wishes and regards,
Jeffery D. Long?Professor of Religion and Asian StudiesElizabethtown College


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 4:42 PM, Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Dear all,
Rather than continue this conversation with politically charged attacks like " self-styled SJWs" I would like to bring to your attention that one of the founding board members of AAIS has deep connections to the efforts to shut down academic freedom and integrity.?
One of the founding board members of AAIS is also on the board of Nalanda University in Bihar, India. I taught at Nalanda several years ago, helping to found the School of Buddhist Studies, Philosophy, and Comparative Religion. There I taught several courses -- Sanskrit, courses on Religious Studies theories and methods -- most importantly, The History and Politics of Yoga. After my contract was not renewed and I was given no reason, I had to argue with the university about my final pay (which I have never received). In the course of that fight I contacted every member of the Nalanda board. Only one ever responded. Several months after I was supposed to receive my final pay (for July 2017) I woke up to an email from a journalist asking me if I had any response to Ram Madhav's tweet about my course. (You can see the many awful things that were said about me below, what you cannot see are the private messages I received threatening rape and death if I ever returned to India). You can read more about this incident here?and here.
In that second link you will see that I was ordered to apologize for speaking up for myself and issued a veiled threat of "appropriate action" if I continued to speak about this issue. I again wrote to many Nalanda board members, including one of the founding board members of AAIS. Again, I received no response. I have invited that same board member to my talks at several conferences, they have not come to my talks or responded in any way.?
I will also note that this board member joined the Nalanda board after an RSS-linked administration was put into place. That board member certainly did not speak up for academic integrity at that or any other point. I am offended that an organization would publish a conference listing on this list of international scholars when one of its own board members remained silent (and in my mind complicit) with these threats.?
Nalanda has now lost nearly all its foreign faculty (and students from my understanding). This is, of course, what the administration wanted. I am not surprised by their actions but I am disheartened that not a single member of their board, full of esteemed academics, did not at least speak out against the violent threats made toward me. I am angry that not one of them spoke up for academic freedom.?
There is your clear link between AAIS and Hindutva.Best,
Patricia Sauthoff
On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 5:28 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Dear listfolk,

Seems a just-begun draft made it to my outbox. Anyway, this will make
my analysis a lot shorter and more readable.

The many Sanskritists and other ivory-tower-dwellers on this list will
not like the irruption of politics into their lofty discipline. But
like it or not, Indology just happens to be far more politicized than
e.g. Sinology. So I for one don't mind accepting Tyler Williams'
apologies for troubling us with the politics of it all. And he in turn
shouldn't mind comments on his position, by Nagaraj and now by me,
especially since he chooses to burden this list with an in-your-face
allegation against a fellow list member.

>With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology listserve being used to promote this event.<

He surely hasn't missed his entr?e. Right away, he leaves us in no
doubt about where he stands. It is customary for a certain ideological
school, the self-styled SJWs, to deny its adversaries legitimacy for
not only the contents but even for the definitional status of their
"publications". As a marked "scholar" with a "PhD" who writes "books"
and "papers", I recognize from afar the political implications of the
expression "conference". As if it were anything else than a
conference. And I don't get disappointed, for the next part of the
opening sentence already is a request for deplatforming his chosen
adversary, -- deplatforming being the absolute favourite in very that
school's armoury. That just begs to be "problematized".


>There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence against our colleagues in India.<

"Even violence"? My oh my, what have we got here on this list?
Lavanya, is that you?

But I do know of a target of Leftist violence, viz. Vivek Agnihotri,
the coiner of the term "Urban Naxal", to which Williams objects. It is
a verifiable fact that several Leftist public figures, from Sanjay
Dutt on down, have physically made common cause with terrorists; and
that hundreds have verbally supported terrorists. Personally I think
that that is allowed, you could e.g. give reasoned arguments for
Kashmiri separatism all while this cause is equally defended with
terror by others. But to oppose it is equally permitted, and it seems
Hindus are no longer taking it lying down and have joined the battle
of discourse. As an ex-Marxist, I think the adoption of such colourful
fighting terms tends to be a crucial moment in the history of an
emancipation movement.

And "Hindutva" project? The story of this recent "Indic" movement is
precisely a concern to distance themselves from the legitimate
"Hindutva" crowd, meaning the HMS and Sangh Parivar, who swear by
"nationalism". The more successful the Parivar has become politically,
the hazier and clumsier it has become ideologically, so it is facing
several budding alternatives within Hindu politics. A first paper of
mine about this is already 8 years old
(https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/08/hindu-activism-outside-sangh.html),
but has never made any dent in the standard narrative.

Most "experts" on the subject make a very loose, pamphlet-like use of
the term Hindutva. Yet, it has a precise definition, given by the
founder himself. A fast criterion for objectivity in reporting, and a
fortiori in scholarship, is using the terms which the people
themselves use for themselves, with any qualifiers being separate and
made recognizable as such. The context in which VD Savarkar started
the political use of this term for "Hinduness" (coined in 19th-century
Bengal in the same sense) in 1923, was nationalism, and hence the only
permissible extension of its meaning is as "Hindu nationalism",
identified with the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sangh Parivar. However,
the story of this recent "Indic" mouvance is precisely to keep a
distance from it.

I entirely agree that even with this "Indic" critique of "Western
Indology", a few things are seriously deficient. But a serious
Indologist will recognize this as one voice in an array of criticism
of Indology per se (see e.g.
https://www.academia.edu/14688786/The_lost_honour_of_India_Studies).
In particular, the great interest Western India-watchers take in class
conflict within Hindu society, certainly comes in for a suspicion of
neo-colonialism. Exploiting inter-native conflicts was a prime
stratagem in colonization, e.g. Hernan Cortes conquered Mexico from
the Aztecs by allying with disgruntled other tribes. And indeed, the
"Breaking India" forces (such as the Christian Missionaries) extol
this conflict beyond all proportion, thus making their own project of
conquest ("rich harvest of souls" -- Pope JP II) invisible, at least
to na?ve or wilfully blind observers.

Indeed, "colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried
out by European together with members of elite South Asian
communities",--and, if the colonialist so chose, also with other
agents, such as members of the Depressed Classes, e.g. Dr. Ambedkar
serving on the Viceroy's council. The power struggle is indeed more
complex than the native/foreign binary of the Indics, but also more
complex than the "good subalterns plus their Western sympathizers vs.
the ugly evil Brahmins" of the Indian Left and its Western sponsors
(examples on request).

Finally, I note the over-confident condemnation of the reference to
"more than 5000 years of a continuous civilization" as an
"anti-historical assertion". To the extent that this hints at the
Aryan Invasion Theory, so dear to the hearts of the Breaking India
forces, I will comply right away with the desire of most list members
not to re-open te debate on this old saw.

Kind regards,


Dr. Koenraad Elst, neither Hindu nor nationalist

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





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From john.darumadera at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 22:02:23 2019
From: john.darumadera at gmail.com (John Huntington)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 19 18:02:23 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Museum
In-Reply-To: <BY5PR19MB335009E47330FAE1BAF31BCAA0FD0@BY5PR19MB3350.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGbyd22teZA1Lr11EvnmoyTMCx=UxH005FF4n+CnxrzZ-d7Wbg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Harsha

I am writing to tell you that in the Nepalese Patan palace (painting Museum
now) there is an extensively painted room on the second floor on the durbar
(south) side. In late 2002/3 my late colleague Dina Bangdel and I were
permitted to photograph it in a "rush" one afternoon. It included the many
inscriptions but with Dina's untimely death there is no one with the
language skills to work on the material.

All the best

John

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 3:59 PM Harsha Dehejia via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Friends:
>
> While we have references to chitrashalas or a gallery of paintings, and in
> medieval India, as in Bundi for example, we have rooms in the fort where
> every inch is painted and it looks like a picture gallery, is there any
> reference to Museums, as we know it today, in ancient India?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Harsha
> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia
> Indic Studies, College of the Humanities
> Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 03:17:13 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 05:17:13 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
In-Reply-To: <CAPAr6cH97h0ykF10x2KTRbcrA=ho9S4XrPii3AZGDP6NtQ9jdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zF57L5_c2RfkgL-hAqSgbWNJ9sRpLVjh6fMquLuYxN+9A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Prof. Sauthoff & listfolk,

Interesting: "Rather than continue this conversation with politically
charged attacks (...) I would like to" engage in politically charged
attacks on an unnamed "founding board member of AAIS".

That's a very convenient kind of attack, for there is no way of
countering this attack. Look, I don't know this man, nor the whole
board of this AAIS, I don't know how white their souls are, and that
is not the point. Anyone has a right to be heard, and when I see the
names of august Indologists  like Arvind Sharma or Jefferey Long, I
very much doubt the judgment of those who clamour for banning an AAIS
announcement. Even if this allegation were true, it would be no worse
than any of the times that I myself have been the target of "efforts
to shut down academic freedom and integrity", and that consistently
failed to make me call for censorship or a form of repression against
them, or "deplatforming" as it is now called. There is no reason for
banning or stonewalling this AAIS just as there never was any reason
for me to demand anything similar against dissenters, not even the
despotic secularists & socialists who had gone out of their way to
smother my own voice.

The answer to a bad conference is a better conference. In 2014, I was
among those participants of the European Conference of South Asian
Studies in Z?rich who signed a petition for freedom of expression
piloted by, I believe, Laurie Patton and our own Dominik Wujastyk, and
spefically against India's pro-censorship and anti-hate-speech law IPC
295A, on the occasion of a censorship-oriented Hindutva (in this case
it is correct to call it that, Dinanath Batra being an RSS man) move
against Wendy Doniger's  'Alternative History of the Hindus' (see
https://www.academia.edu/36329232/In_favour_of_freedom_of_expression).
I whole-heartedly support freedom of expression, just as much for my
adversaries as for my friends. (This attitude is rarely reciprocated,
e.g. at that same conference, my own contribution was at the very last
moment censored from the congress proceedings of my panel.) If you
don't like a book, the only good answer is a better book, i.c. Vishal
Agarwal's counter-book detailing the numerous errors in Doniger's
unjustly famous book.

It amused me to see how a number of people whom I had gotten to know
for their active or passive attempts to get me banned from other
forums, e.g. from the RISA-list (successfully, though in violation of
the list charter); now suddenly stood up for freedom, as this time it
was one of their own who was targeted. But it amused me even more that
all these anti-Hindutva heroes were standing up to a law that had now
been used by the Hindutva crowd, but that was actually (not just
enacted in order to protect Islam from Hindu criticism, but esp.) a
model for the "hate speech" codes that are now terrorizing academe in
the West, and that I knew many of them were supporting. Indeed, Art.
295A IPC was a model hate speech law, and its British colonial
motivation is well worth remembering when surveying the clamour
against "hate speech" today. The Brits justified it by saying that
unlike themselves, the natives were not mature enough to deal with
criticism without going overboard. "Hate speech" laws are despotic by
nature. Decolonization implies abolishing them. Call me an
abolitionist.

So, we have no need of being protected against this AAIS conference,
much less against the very mention of it. It represents one viewpoint,
and adherents of another viewpoint are welcome to express their own,
indeed they are already doing so. And to engage with the AAIS people
in order to make them see the supposed error of their ways. Indeed,
knowing those Hindu diaspora circles rather well, I make bold I can
get you, Patricia, invited to the conference and given time & the mike
to explain to them that they are wrong. They call that the Purva
Paksha, the counter-viewpoint, an integral part of the formation of
their own opinion.
.
In fact, reading on, I notice that you have had a similar idea yourself:

> I have invited that same board member to my talks at several conferences, they have not come to my talks or responded in any way.<

OK, I take it upon myself to make communication between this AAIS
fellow and yourself possible. You can contact me off-list on
koenraad.elst at gmail.com. I greatly appreciate your willingness to talk
it out, as contrasting with the SJW decision that condescending to any
communication with "Hindutva" ogres is useless.


> One of the founding board members of AAIS is also on the board of Nalanda University in Bihar, India. I taught at Nalanda several years ago, helping to found the School of Buddhist Studies, Philosophy, and Comparative Religion. (?) After my contract was not renewed and I was given no reason, I had to argue with the university about my final pay (which I have never received).<

The Nalanda university was (re-) founded by a number of Leftist
intellectuals, with as poster boy the Nobel winner Amartya Sen. Its
selection of foreign professors was as partisan as what was to happen
under the BJP a few years later. But in a shameless show of
Congressite corruption, Nalanda was mismanaged so badly that it
accepted a take-over by the State. But then the BJP came to power,....

So you were not paid. Well, that sounds familiar. Last December, a
number of list members including myself participated in a conference
in Sanchi University (founded as the BJP's answer to Nalanda). We had
been promised a reimbursement but then the BJP government was ousted
by Congress in state elections, so we got a new Education minister, a
new VC, and since then, no reimbursement. We have no direct
information, but the Indian media have reported that corrupt
Congressites had immediately started making up for the hungry years in
the opposition. Oh, and the University Board had also okayed my on
nomination as Visiting Professor; but that too has come to naught
since this political change. So, I am sorry for your loss, but I also
know from experience (and not just the incident related) that, well,
deplatforming happens, broken promises happen, plain stealing happens,
even regardless of ideology.


>  I woke up to an email from a journalist asking me if I had any response to Ram Madhav's tweet about my course.<

My God, we must be twin souls. Me too, I had a clash with Ram Madhav.
After having been deplatformed many times by the Left, it was this
Hindutva bigwig's turn to deplatform me. (He is the main addressee of
this open letter about the incident:
https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2014/12/letter-to-organizers-of-india-ideas.html)


>
> I will also note that this board member joined the Nalanda board after an RSS-linked administration was put into place.<

>From your info, I still can't know whom you mean. The blockhead
behaviour  you describe certainly indicates an RSS inspiration, though
my point remains valid: the current that prefers the term "Indic" as a
middling term between "Indian" and "Hindu" tries to mark itself off
against the RSS. But the RSS, like the Trotskyites of yore or the SJWs
today, persistently pursue an entryist policy.

But thanks anyway for your testimony. I have seen the developments in
the Indian Council of Historical Research at close quarters, including
the impact of the BJP's rise to power. It was, as usual, a far cry
from what the supposed experts and India-watchers claim. Thus, Kapil
Kapoor & Michel Danino's excellent textbook about Indian knowledge
systems and India's contributions to the sciences, which should have
been a favourite of all Hindu-minded people, had been launched under
Congress but fell into disuse under the BJP. Far from packing the
field with pro-Hindu scholars, the RSS idea of dominating an
institution was to use this occasion (normally seized upon for
nominating dynamic people ready to change the game) only to reward
incompetent gerontocrats with plum sinecure posts and not change
anything. So you say that in Nalanda they did affirm their ideology;
maybe, but so far not higher than at Twitter level.


> That board member certainly did not speak up for academic integrity at that or any other point. I am offended that an organization would publish a conference listing on this list of international scholars when one of its own board members remained silent (and in my mind complicit) with these threats. I am disheartened that not a single member of their board, full of esteemed academics, did not at least speak out against the violent threats made toward me. I am angry that not one of them spoke up for academic freedom.<

As a habitual receiver of threats since 30 years, I certainly don't
approve of threats. But ever since I got  scared somewhat by a
Khalistani threat back then, I have learned that they are not truly
scary. Cheer up, those who are serious about harming you are not the
ones who first send a warning to you with threats. Twitter is just
words. Nevertheless, those esteemed academics should have supported
you, indeed. But again, it is not only in your case that they abandon
the victims. When terrorists attacked (not just threatened but
actually attacked) a Mo cartoon event by Pamela Geller and Robert
Spencer in Texas, both presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and
Donald Trump refused to sympathize without ifs or buts. After the
Danish cartoon affair, the AAA at its subsequent annual conference
held a panel on it, where all six panelists and the moderator just
couldn't get it across their lips to simply support the cartoonists.
All of them started out to this effect: "I am all for freedom of
expression, BUT..." All of them ended up blaming the victim, though
some avoided becoming too explicit about that. So, Patricia, join the
club.


>There is your clear link between AAIS and Hindutva..<

Clear?! Well, no, I don't see any big Hindutva name on that website, I
really wonder whom you mean. Names of moderate figures like Arvind
Sharma or Jeffrey Long suggest something else. Then again, they have
indeed begged for comprehension of the Hindu position once in a while,
and for most India-watchers, that would immediately stamp them
"Hindutva". Here, the India-watchers (and within India, the so-called
secularists) and the RSS make common cause: they both claim that
anyone defending anything Hindu is "an RSS man". In reality, there is
a whole array of non-Sanghi yet pro-Hindu voices arising, and the
"Indic" current (led by Hari Kiran Vadlamani) is one of them.

There is a slogan nowadays: "Hindus against Hindutva". It has been
launched by anti-Hindu forces, and with "Hindutva" is meant any
defence of anything Hindu. They want the freedom to attack Hinduism
left and right, and any defence against those attacks is a nuisance
that we should be "against". But let us take them at their word: they
have at least correctly distinguished between Hinduism and Hindutva.
But let's see in practice how long they can keep this up. For my
experience over the last 30 years is that the least sign of life in
Hinduism, of not succumbing to suicidal behaviour, is at once
demonized as "Hindutva".

The psychology behind this, is that they like Hinduism alright, as
long as it is only "museum Hinduism". This goes back to the Christian
Missionaries, who mostly had a genuine sympathy for much of the
culture they had come to destroy (by replacement with Christianity),
e.g. by writing descriptions of these dying cultures (e.g. the Edda,
or de Sahagun's writings on the Amerindian culture). Today, things
like Bharat Natyam or Carnatic music are still tolerated, they give
some colour to life. But when Hinduism resists being phased out, it
immediately gets criminalized as "Hindutva". This very colonial
attitude of accepting the Other only when he gives no sign of life
anymore, is like visiting a museum where everything is passive and
dead; but then suddenly, Tut-Ankh-Amon's mummy starts to move his arm,
and then even to raise his voice. Oh, that is not so nice anymore,
that is -- dare I say it? -- "Hindutva". In such a scary moment,
people don't think rationally anymore, so all distinctions disappear,
it all just becomes "Hindutva".

All the best,


Dr. Koenraad Elst


> On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 5:28 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear listfolk,
>>
>> Seems a just-begun draft made it to my outbox. Anyway, this will make
>> my analysis a lot shorter and more readable.
>>
>> The many Sanskritists and other ivory-tower-dwellers on this list will
>> not like the irruption of politics into their lofty discipline. But
>> like it or not, Indology just happens to be far more politicized than
>> e.g. Sinology. So I for one don't mind accepting Tyler Williams'
>> apologies for troubling us with the politics of it all. And he in turn
>> shouldn't mind comments on his position, by Nagaraj and now by me,
>> especially since he chooses to burden this list with an in-your-face
>> allegation against a fellow list member.
>>
>> >With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology listserve being used to promote this event.<
>>
>> He surely hasn't missed his entr?e. Right away, he leaves us in no
>> doubt about where he stands. It is customary for a certain ideological
>> school, the self-styled SJWs, to deny its adversaries legitimacy for
>> not only the contents but even for the definitional status of their
>> "publications". As a marked "scholar" with a "PhD" who writes "books"
>> and "papers", I recognize from afar the political implications of the
>> expression "conference". As if it were anything else than a
>> conference. And I don't get disappointed, for the next part of the
>> opening sentence already is a request for deplatforming his chosen
>> adversary, -- deplatforming being the absolute favourite in very that
>> school's armoury. That just begs to be "problematized".
>>
>>
>> >There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence against our colleagues in India.<
>>
>> "Even violence"? My oh my, what have we got here on this list?
>> Lavanya, is that you?
>>
>> But I do know of a target of Leftist violence, viz. Vivek Agnihotri,
>> the coiner of the term "Urban Naxal", to which Williams objects. It is
>> a verifiable fact that several Leftist public figures, from Sanjay
>> Dutt on down, have physically made common cause with terrorists; and
>> that hundreds have verbally supported terrorists. Personally I think
>> that that is allowed, you could e.g. give reasoned arguments for
>> Kashmiri separatism all while this cause is equally defended with
>> terror by others. But to oppose it is equally permitted, and it seems
>> Hindus are no longer taking it lying down and have joined the battle
>> of discourse. As an ex-Marxist, I think the adoption of such colourful
>> fighting terms tends to be a crucial moment in the history of an
>> emancipation movement.
>>
>> And "Hindutva" project? The story of this recent "Indic" movement is
>> precisely a concern to distance themselves from the legitimate
>> "Hindutva" crowd, meaning the HMS and Sangh Parivar, who swear by
>> "nationalism". The more successful the Parivar has become politically,
>> the hazier and clumsier it has become ideologically, so it is facing
>> several budding alternatives within Hindu politics. A first paper of
>> mine about this is already 8 years old
>> (https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/08/hindu-activism-outside-sangh.html),
>> but has never made any dent in the standard narrative.
>>
>> Most "experts" on the subject make a very loose, pamphlet-like use of
>> the term Hindutva. Yet, it has a precise definition, given by the
>> founder himself. A fast criterion for objectivity in reporting, and a
>> fortiori in scholarship, is using the terms which the people
>> themselves use for themselves, with any qualifiers being separate and
>> made recognizable as such. The context in which VD Savarkar started
>> the political use of this term for "Hinduness" (coined in 19th-century
>> Bengal in the same sense) in 1923, was nationalism, and hence the only
>> permissible extension of its meaning is as "Hindu nationalism",
>> identified with the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sangh Parivar. However,
>> the story of this recent "Indic" mouvance is precisely to keep a
>> distance from it.
>>
>> I entirely agree that even with this "Indic" critique of "Western
>> Indology", a few things are seriously deficient. But a serious
>> Indologist will recognize this as one voice in an array of criticism
>> of Indology per se (see e.g.
>> https://www.academia.edu/14688786/The_lost_honour_of_India_Studies).
>> In particular, the great interest Western India-watchers take in class
>> conflict within Hindu society, certainly comes in for a suspicion of
>> neo-colonialism. Exploiting inter-native conflicts was a prime
>> stratagem in colonization, e.g. Hernan Cortes conquered Mexico from
>> the Aztecs by allying with disgruntled other tribes. And indeed, the
>> "Breaking India" forces (such as the Christian Missionaries) extol
>> this conflict beyond all proportion, thus making their own project of
>> conquest ("rich harvest of souls" -- Pope JP II) invisible, at least
>> to na?ve or wilfully blind observers.
>>
>> Indeed, "colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried
>> out by European together with members of elite South Asian
>> communities",--and, if the colonialist so chose, also with other
>> agents, such as members of the Depressed Classes, e.g. Dr. Ambedkar
>> serving on the Viceroy's council. The power struggle is indeed more
>> complex than the native/foreign binary of the Indics, but also more
>> complex than the "good subalterns plus their Western sympathizers vs.
>> the ugly evil Brahmins" of the Indian Left and its Western sponsors
>> (examples on request).
>>
>> Finally, I note the over-confident condemnation of the reference to
>> "more than 5000 years of a continuous civilization" as an
>> "anti-historical assertion". To the extent that this hints at the
>> Aryan Invasion Theory, so dear to the hearts of the Breaking India
>> forces, I will comply right away with the desire of most list members
>> not to re-open te debate on this old saw.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Dr. Koenraad Elst, neither Hindu nor nationalist
>>
>> _





From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 08:06:24 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 13:36:24 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIXgpKjgpYfgpJXgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpLjgpJngpY3gpJfgpY3gpLDgpLkgb2Yg4KS54KWH4KSu4KSa4KSo4KWN4KSm4KWN4KSw4KS+4KSa4KS+4KSw4KWN4KSv?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUwgpVJt20mNj_ci2TKwQp=nzOFw2d0GUKojkjDYUa-8w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Scholars,
It gives me immense pleasure to present the below mentioned work.
Anek?rthasa?graha of Hemacandr?c?rya.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/anekarthasangraha_hemachandra/orig/anekarthasangraha.txt

CREDITS:
The work was digitized by Sansknet project and preserved at
https://www.wilbourhall.org/sansknet/index.html. The data was in a legacy
font. It has been converted to unicode. There have been some corrections
made therein to correct typos.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Fri Jun 28 09:58:05 2019
From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 09:58:05 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #493
Message-ID: <5c29aa3d1b0a49c9ad28809b07348614@sub.uni-goettingen.de>

GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:

Texts added:
Lolimbaraja: Vaidyajivana<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#sa_lolimbarAja-vaidyajIvana>
Ravideva: Raksasakavya with Tika<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm#sa_ravideva-rAkSasakAvyawithTIkA>

__________________________________________________________________________
GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm


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From witzel at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Jun 28 12:38:59 2019
From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 12:38:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Museum
In-Reply-To: <CAGbyd22teZA1Lr11EvnmoyTMCx=UxH005FF4n+CnxrzZ-d7Wbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52304DF6-82BC-41B7-8B9F-183AF53D51B2@fas.harvard.edu>

There is of course a similar, elaborately painted room in the Bhaktapur Palace, 15 km east of Kathmandu.

As for such  inscriptions you could contact the recently retired  prof. of arts of the U. Wisconsin @  Madison: Gautam Bajarcharya, at:

GAUTAMA V VAJRACHARYA <gvvajrac at wisc.edu<mailto:gvvajrac at wisc.edu>>

Best wishes,
Michael Witzel

On Jun 27, 2019, at 6:02 PM, John Huntington via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Harsha

I am writing to tell you that in the Nepalese Patan palace (painting Museum now) there is an extensively painted room on the second floor on the durbar (south) side. In late 2002/3 my late colleague Dina Bangdel and I were permitted to photograph it in a "rush" one afternoon. It included the many inscriptions but with Dina's untimely death there is no one with the language skills to work on the material.

All the best

John

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 3:59 PM Harsha Dehejia via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Friends:

While we have references to chitrashalas or a gallery of paintings, and in medieval India, as in Bundi for example, we have rooms in the fort where every inch is painted and it looks like a picture gallery, is there any reference to Museums, as we know it today, in ancient India?

Kind regards,

Harsha
Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia
Indic Studies, College of the Humanities
Carleton University, Ottawa, ON., Canada
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
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http://listinfo.indology.info<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listinfo.indology.info&d=DwMFaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=tFXzIbyKS2C0TpVqKsMrj46qwsAermBN5wzaDe51So0&m=fEwGlk7afUIlbHSsneuG6zSruWo8dElPbhh7swxLD7Y&s=fCKf9NVUPSw5RoQJF5-bnZNz7P16sVVKIOfG6xaTwZc&e=> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
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http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From peter.schreiner at aoi.uzh.ch  Fri Jun 28 12:46:29 2019
From: peter.schreiner at aoi.uzh.ch (Peter Schreiner)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 14:46:29 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] A Yoga Bibliography
In-Reply-To: <e20e3879-45e3-291e-2556-b5abc9a07c40@aoi.uzh.ch>
Message-ID: <62390385-21bd-d6c8-4e21-e526bf5f61aa@aoi.uzh.ch>

A Yoga Bibliography


?Foundations, Methods, Goals? was the subtitle of a bibliographical 
survey on yoga literature published in 1979 and listing around thousand 
titles. I have been collecting titles on yoga ever since. Even though I 
may continue to do so (presently, a search for "yoga" in academia.edu 
finds more than 91'000 papers containing 'yoga' and more than 3'000 
paper titles that mention 'yoga'), the time has come to adjust to the 
new technologies and tools for searching and storing information. Thus, 
?A Yoga Bibliography? (edited by Peter Schreiner and Olga Serbaeva) has 
been uploaded to the homepage of the Department of Indology at the 
Asien-Orient-Institut (AOI) of the University of Z?rich from where it 
can be downloaded ? to be used and improved.


https://www.aoi.uzh.ch/de/indologie/textarchive/yogabibliography.html


For details see the Project Introduction. The bibliography was meant to 
be an indological bibliography; if members of this list send me 
information about missing references (e.g., your own publications) with 
all bibliographical details, I can still include them...

Peter Schreiner

-- 
Peter Schreiner
Chemin de Boracles 94
1008 Jouxtens-M?zery
Switzerland

Tel. +41-21-635 0365
mobile: +41-76-422 0365
email:peter.schreiner at aoi.uzh.ch



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun 28 13:27:46 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 06:27:46 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeTh_x1BhcDgzGcxjxeL6XY-w8mJ=LRLw94scUjUuCd_A@mail.gmail.com>

?????? ?????????? ?????????????: ??? ??? ?
???????? ?? ????? ??????????? ?????? ???????

Krishna is joy incarnate.  How can I compare him, who, as his son delights
Nanda in Gokula?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 15:53:09 2019
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 09:53:09 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <a452dce50e84dfc1710aadb8fbd56268@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekaGwAD-Sr2Ax_G7crGPt7c+RZ8JJVsgc8hoBCT5cViPXg@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a good quality scan of Thibaut's article on the S?ryapraj?apti that
was referred to:

http://www.downloads.prajnaquest.fr/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Jaina%20Texts/suryaprajnapti,_on_the,_1880_thibaut.pdf

I have also scanned and posted primary sources on the S?ryapraj?apti. These
are not easy to find, so I list them here:

?r?s?ryapraj?aptyup??gam with commentary by Malayagiri, 1919:
http://www.downloads.prajnaquest.fr/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Jaina%20Texts/suryaprajnapti_and_malayagiri_comm._1919.pdf

Die S?ryapraj?apti, ed. Josef Friedrich Kohl, 1937:
http://www.downloads.prajnaquest.fr/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Jaina%20Texts/suryaprajnapti_1937_kohl.pdf

Suryaprajnapti, summarized English translation by R. Shama Sastry,
1925-1928:
http://www.downloads.prajnaquest.fr/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Jaina%20Texts/suryaprajnapti_1925-1928_eng_shamasastry.pdf
<http://www.downloads.prajnaquest.fr/BookofDzyan/Sanskrit%20Jaina%20Texts/suryaprajnapti_1925-1928_eng_shamasastry.pdf>

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 10:57 AM jmdelire via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Bill,
>
> You must be right when saying that "the 28-nak?atra system may also
> likely postdate the 27 one". Actually, the Ved??ga-jyoti?a (VJ), which
> has only 27 n., uses the beginning of n.?ravi??h? and the middle of
> n.??le?? as winter and summer solstices respectively, which places the
> astronomical data of the VJ around 1150 BC. The Gargasa?hit? and the
> Pait?mahasiddh?nta, summarized by Var?hamihira, are similar, but the
> jain works Jyoti?akara??a and S?ryapraj?apti replace n.?ravi??? by
> n.?rava?a and add n.Abhijit (Vega) to the zodiac. On the other hand, the
> S?ryapraj?apti puts the winter solstice at the beginning of n.Abhijit,
> which makes a difference of 17,3? with the beginning of n. ?ravi??h?
> (VJ), that is 1246 years after VJ (see G.Thibaut, ? On the
> S?ryapraj?apti ?, JASB (1880), p.117).
>
> Best,
>
> Jean Michel Delire,
> Lecturer on Science and Civilization of India - Sanskrit Texts at the
> IHEB (University of Brussels)
>
>


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Fri Jun 28 16:40:37 2019
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 10:40:37 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <1F273667-0399-404C-ACCF-14F5DC7D9080@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbi=eQB=p4O2uYTcXdXzB6oF_d23eVtPjvMbYpcBrK=SA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Bill,

The paper that you refer to by Yano, "The Nak?atra system of
the Atharvaveda-Pari?i??a", 2009, does not show up in his list of
publications:

https://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/pdf/bibyano.pdf

Is it available somewhere? I could not find it. Thanks.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 3:21 PM Bill Mak via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Jean,
>
> Thank you for the Thibaut reference. It seems indeed easier to explain the
> differences using an accretive model. Especially since a sidereal month is
> 27.3 days, 27 may be a nice rounded number, and Abhijit was added later to
> account for the remainder. Furthermore, in the unequal nak?atra system
> Abhijit was always made very small both in terms of measurement of arcs on
> the ecliptic and the duration traversed by the Moon. I am however cautious
> and I try to imagine in my head a p?rvapak?a trying to explain how 28 could
> have become 27 instead!
>
> Using VJ as a historical point of reference is not so easy. As Pingree and
> others have pointed out (Pingree, *jyoti???stra*, 1981), there are
> evidences that there are layers of astronomical materials from different
> periods, and for other philological reasons he dated VJ to 400 B.C.
> Astronomically speaking, one finds in VJ the 27 nak?atras beginning with
> K?ttik? as in the Vedic *sa?hit?s*. But then they were used not as
> constellations, but equal divisions of 13;20 deg on the ecliptic. More
> clues of this adaptation may be gleaned from Som?kara?s *Bh??ya*. Yano
> ("The Nak?atra system of the Atharvaveda-Pari?i??a", 2009) pointed out that
> the initial point of ecliptic coordinate in VJ was placed not at K?ttik? or
> as later at A?vn?, but rather in between at Bhara?? 10 deg. So there is a
> handful of information to be disentangled.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill
>
> --
> Bill M. Mak
>
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
> Japan
> ?606-8501 ??????????
> ???????????
>
> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
>
> copies of my publications may be found at:
> http://www.billmak.com
> http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak
>
>


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Fri Jun 28 20:52:55 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 14:52:55 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
In-Reply-To: <CALOY_zF57L5_c2RfkgL-hAqSgbWNJ9sRpLVjh6fMquLuYxN+9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAr6cGNfbBG8aYJg1O0KhYYNRaSZ6QQBWtBJXY6jvUmi2x90Q@mail.gmail.com>

It's unfortunate that I have shared a personal but relevant experience with
this list only to be met with far right dog whistles and gaslighting. Just
like the last time I joined a discussion about something beyond simply an
ask for resources.



On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 9:17 PM Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Prof. Sauthoff & listfolk,
>
> Interesting: "Rather than continue this conversation with politically
> charged attacks (...) I would like to" engage in politically charged
> attacks on an unnamed "founding board member of AAIS".
>
> That's a very convenient kind of attack, for there is no way of
> countering this attack. Look, I don't know this man, nor the whole
> board of this AAIS, I don't know how white their souls are, and that
> is not the point. Anyone has a right to be heard, and when I see the
> names of august Indologists  like Arvind Sharma or Jefferey Long, I
> very much doubt the judgment of those who clamour for banning an AAIS
> announcement. Even if this allegation were true, it would be no worse
> than any of the times that I myself have been the target of "efforts
> to shut down academic freedom and integrity", and that consistently
> failed to make me call for censorship or a form of repression against
> them, or "deplatforming" as it is now called. There is no reason for
> banning or stonewalling this AAIS just as there never was any reason
> for me to demand anything similar against dissenters, not even the
> despotic secularists & socialists who had gone out of their way to
> smother my own voice.
>
> The answer to a bad conference is a better conference. In 2014, I was
> among those participants of the European Conference of South Asian
> Studies in Z?rich who signed a petition for freedom of expression
> piloted by, I believe, Laurie Patton and our own Dominik Wujastyk, and
> spefically against India's pro-censorship and anti-hate-speech law IPC
> 295A, on the occasion of a censorship-oriented Hindutva (in this case
> it is correct to call it that, Dinanath Batra being an RSS man) move
> against Wendy Doniger's  'Alternative History of the Hindus' (see
> https://www.academia.edu/36329232/In_favour_of_freedom_of_expression).
> I whole-heartedly support freedom of expression, just as much for my
> adversaries as for my friends. (This attitude is rarely reciprocated,
> e.g. at that same conference, my own contribution was at the very last
> moment censored from the congress proceedings of my panel.) If you
> don't like a book, the only good answer is a better book, i.c. Vishal
> Agarwal's counter-book detailing the numerous errors in Doniger's
> unjustly famous book.
>
> It amused me to see how a number of people whom I had gotten to know
> for their active or passive attempts to get me banned from other
> forums, e.g. from the RISA-list (successfully, though in violation of
> the list charter); now suddenly stood up for freedom, as this time it
> was one of their own who was targeted. But it amused me even more that
> all these anti-Hindutva heroes were standing up to a law that had now
> been used by the Hindutva crowd, but that was actually (not just
> enacted in order to protect Islam from Hindu criticism, but esp.) a
> model for the "hate speech" codes that are now terrorizing academe in
> the West, and that I knew many of them were supporting. Indeed, Art.
> 295A IPC was a model hate speech law, and its British colonial
> motivation is well worth remembering when surveying the clamour
> against "hate speech" today. The Brits justified it by saying that
> unlike themselves, the natives were not mature enough to deal with
> criticism without going overboard. "Hate speech" laws are despotic by
> nature. Decolonization implies abolishing them. Call me an
> abolitionist.
>
> So, we have no need of being protected against this AAIS conference,
> much less against the very mention of it. It represents one viewpoint,
> and adherents of another viewpoint are welcome to express their own,
> indeed they are already doing so. And to engage with the AAIS people
> in order to make them see the supposed error of their ways. Indeed,
> knowing those Hindu diaspora circles rather well, I make bold I can
> get you, Patricia, invited to the conference and given time & the mike
> to explain to them that they are wrong. They call that the Purva
> Paksha, the counter-viewpoint, an integral part of the formation of
> their own opinion.
> .
> In fact, reading on, I notice that you have had a similar idea yourself:
>
> > I have invited that same board member to my talks at several
> conferences, they have not come to my talks or responded in any way.<
>
> OK, I take it upon myself to make communication between this AAIS
> fellow and yourself possible. You can contact me off-list on
> koenraad.elst at gmail.com. I greatly appreciate your willingness to talk
> it out, as contrasting with the SJW decision that condescending to any
> communication with "Hindutva" ogres is useless.
>
>
> > One of the founding board members of AAIS is also on the board of
> Nalanda University in Bihar, India. I taught at Nalanda several years ago,
> helping to found the School of Buddhist Studies, Philosophy, and
> Comparative Religion. (?) After my contract was not renewed and I was given
> no reason, I had to argue with the university about my final pay (which I
> have never received).<
>
> The Nalanda university was (re-) founded by a number of Leftist
> intellectuals, with as poster boy the Nobel winner Amartya Sen. Its
> selection of foreign professors was as partisan as what was to happen
> under the BJP a few years later. But in a shameless show of
> Congressite corruption, Nalanda was mismanaged so badly that it
> accepted a take-over by the State. But then the BJP came to power,....
>
> So you were not paid. Well, that sounds familiar. Last December, a
> number of list members including myself participated in a conference
> in Sanchi University (founded as the BJP's answer to Nalanda). We had
> been promised a reimbursement but then the BJP government was ousted
> by Congress in state elections, so we got a new Education minister, a
> new VC, and since then, no reimbursement. We have no direct
> information, but the Indian media have reported that corrupt
> Congressites had immediately started making up for the hungry years in
> the opposition. Oh, and the University Board had also okayed my on
> nomination as Visiting Professor; but that too has come to naught
> since this political change. So, I am sorry for your loss, but I also
> know from experience (and not just the incident related) that, well,
> deplatforming happens, broken promises happen, plain stealing happens,
> even regardless of ideology.
>
>
> >  I woke up to an email from a journalist asking me if I had any response
> to Ram Madhav's tweet about my course.<
>
> My God, we must be twin souls. Me too, I had a clash with Ram Madhav.
> After having been deplatformed many times by the Left, it was this
> Hindutva bigwig's turn to deplatform me. (He is the main addressee of
> this open letter about the incident:
>
> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2014/12/letter-to-organizers-of-india-ideas.html
> )
>
>
> >
> > I will also note that this board member joined the Nalanda board after
> an RSS-linked administration was put into place.<
>
> From your info, I still can't know whom you mean. The blockhead
> behaviour  you describe certainly indicates an RSS inspiration, though
> my point remains valid: the current that prefers the term "Indic" as a
> middling term between "Indian" and "Hindu" tries to mark itself off
> against the RSS. But the RSS, like the Trotskyites of yore or the SJWs
> today, persistently pursue an entryist policy.
>
> But thanks anyway for your testimony. I have seen the developments in
> the Indian Council of Historical Research at close quarters, including
> the impact of the BJP's rise to power. It was, as usual, a far cry
> from what the supposed experts and India-watchers claim. Thus, Kapil
> Kapoor & Michel Danino's excellent textbook about Indian knowledge
> systems and India's contributions to the sciences, which should have
> been a favourite of all Hindu-minded people, had been launched under
> Congress but fell into disuse under the BJP. Far from packing the
> field with pro-Hindu scholars, the RSS idea of dominating an
> institution was to use this occasion (normally seized upon for
> nominating dynamic people ready to change the game) only to reward
> incompetent gerontocrats with plum sinecure posts and not change
> anything. So you say that in Nalanda they did affirm their ideology;
> maybe, but so far not higher than at Twitter level.
>
>
> > That board member certainly did not speak up for academic integrity at
> that or any other point. I am offended that an organization would publish a
> conference listing on this list of international scholars when one of its
> own board members remained silent (and in my mind complicit) with these
> threats. I am disheartened that not a single member of their board, full of
> esteemed academics, did not at least speak out against the violent threats
> made toward me. I am angry that not one of them spoke up for academic
> freedom.<
>
> As a habitual receiver of threats since 30 years, I certainly don't
> approve of threats. But ever since I got  scared somewhat by a
> Khalistani threat back then, I have learned that they are not truly
> scary. Cheer up, those who are serious about harming you are not the
> ones who first send a warning to you with threats. Twitter is just
> words. Nevertheless, those esteemed academics should have supported
> you, indeed. But again, it is not only in your case that they abandon
> the victims. When terrorists attacked (not just threatened but
> actually attacked) a Mo cartoon event by Pamela Geller and Robert
> Spencer in Texas, both presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and
> Donald Trump refused to sympathize without ifs or buts. After the
> Danish cartoon affair, the AAA at its subsequent annual conference
> held a panel on it, where all six panelists and the moderator just
> couldn't get it across their lips to simply support the cartoonists.
> All of them started out to this effect: "I am all for freedom of
> expression, BUT..." All of them ended up blaming the victim, though
> some avoided becoming too explicit about that. So, Patricia, join the
> club.
>
>
> >There is your clear link between AAIS and Hindutva..<
>
> Clear?! Well, no, I don't see any big Hindutva name on that website, I
> really wonder whom you mean. Names of moderate figures like Arvind
> Sharma or Jeffrey Long suggest something else. Then again, they have
> indeed begged for comprehension of the Hindu position once in a while,
> and for most India-watchers, that would immediately stamp them
> "Hindutva". Here, the India-watchers (and within India, the so-called
> secularists) and the RSS make common cause: they both claim that
> anyone defending anything Hindu is "an RSS man". In reality, there is
> a whole array of non-Sanghi yet pro-Hindu voices arising, and the
> "Indic" current (led by Hari Kiran Vadlamani) is one of them.
>
> There is a slogan nowadays: "Hindus against Hindutva". It has been
> launched by anti-Hindu forces, and with "Hindutva" is meant any
> defence of anything Hindu. They want the freedom to attack Hinduism
> left and right, and any defence against those attacks is a nuisance
> that we should be "against". But let us take them at their word: they
> have at least correctly distinguished between Hinduism and Hindutva.
> But let's see in practice how long they can keep this up. For my
> experience over the last 30 years is that the least sign of life in
> Hinduism, of not succumbing to suicidal behaviour, is at once
> demonized as "Hindutva".
>
> The psychology behind this, is that they like Hinduism alright, as
> long as it is only "museum Hinduism". This goes back to the Christian
> Missionaries, who mostly had a genuine sympathy for much of the
> culture they had come to destroy (by replacement with Christianity),
> e.g. by writing descriptions of these dying cultures (e.g. the Edda,
> or de Sahagun's writings on the Amerindian culture). Today, things
> like Bharat Natyam or Carnatic music are still tolerated, they give
> some colour to life. But when Hinduism resists being phased out, it
> immediately gets criminalized as "Hindutva". This very colonial
> attitude of accepting the Other only when he gives no sign of life
> anymore, is like visiting a museum where everything is passive and
> dead; but then suddenly, Tut-Ankh-Amon's mummy starts to move his arm,
> and then even to raise his voice. Oh, that is not so nice anymore,
> that is -- dare I say it? -- "Hindutva". In such a scary moment,
> people don't think rationally anymore, so all distinctions disappear,
> it all just becomes "Hindutva".
>
> All the best,
>
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 5:28 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear listfolk,
> >>
> >> Seems a just-begun draft made it to my outbox. Anyway, this will make
> >> my analysis a lot shorter and more readable.
> >>
> >> The many Sanskritists and other ivory-tower-dwellers on this list will
> >> not like the irruption of politics into their lofty discipline. But
> >> like it or not, Indology just happens to be far more politicized than
> >> e.g. Sinology. So I for one don't mind accepting Tyler Williams'
> >> apologies for troubling us with the politics of it all. And he in turn
> >> shouldn't mind comments on his position, by Nagaraj and now by me,
> >> especially since he chooses to burden this list with an in-your-face
> >> allegation against a fellow list member.
> >>
> >> >With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I
> must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed
> "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology
> listserve being used to promote this event.<
> >>
> >> He surely hasn't missed his entr?e. Right away, he leaves us in no
> >> doubt about where he stands. It is customary for a certain ideological
> >> school, the self-styled SJWs, to deny its adversaries legitimacy for
> >> not only the contents but even for the definitional status of their
> >> "publications". As a marked "scholar" with a "PhD" who writes "books"
> >> and "papers", I recognize from afar the political implications of the
> >> expression "conference". As if it were anything else than a
> >> conference. And I don't get disappointed, for the next part of the
> >> opening sentence already is a request for deplatforming his chosen
> >> adversary, -- deplatforming being the absolute favourite in very that
> >> school's armoury. That just begs to be "problematized".
> >>
> >>
> >> >There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
> project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
> the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
> aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
> against our colleagues in India.<
> >>
> >> "Even violence"? My oh my, what have we got here on this list?
> >> Lavanya, is that you?
> >>
> >> But I do know of a target of Leftist violence, viz. Vivek Agnihotri,
> >> the coiner of the term "Urban Naxal", to which Williams objects. It is
> >> a verifiable fact that several Leftist public figures, from Sanjay
> >> Dutt on down, have physically made common cause with terrorists; and
> >> that hundreds have verbally supported terrorists. Personally I think
> >> that that is allowed, you could e.g. give reasoned arguments for
> >> Kashmiri separatism all while this cause is equally defended with
> >> terror by others. But to oppose it is equally permitted, and it seems
> >> Hindus are no longer taking it lying down and have joined the battle
> >> of discourse. As an ex-Marxist, I think the adoption of such colourful
> >> fighting terms tends to be a crucial moment in the history of an
> >> emancipation movement.
> >>
> >> And "Hindutva" project? The story of this recent "Indic" movement is
> >> precisely a concern to distance themselves from the legitimate
> >> "Hindutva" crowd, meaning the HMS and Sangh Parivar, who swear by
> >> "nationalism". The more successful the Parivar has become politically,
> >> the hazier and clumsier it has become ideologically, so it is facing
> >> several budding alternatives within Hindu politics. A first paper of
> >> mine about this is already 8 years old
> >> (
> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/08/hindu-activism-outside-sangh.html
> ),
> >> but has never made any dent in the standard narrative.
> >>
> >> Most "experts" on the subject make a very loose, pamphlet-like use of
> >> the term Hindutva. Yet, it has a precise definition, given by the
> >> founder himself. A fast criterion for objectivity in reporting, and a
> >> fortiori in scholarship, is using the terms which the people
> >> themselves use for themselves, with any qualifiers being separate and
> >> made recognizable as such. The context in which VD Savarkar started
> >> the political use of this term for "Hinduness" (coined in 19th-century
> >> Bengal in the same sense) in 1923, was nationalism, and hence the only
> >> permissible extension of its meaning is as "Hindu nationalism",
> >> identified with the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sangh Parivar. However,
> >> the story of this recent "Indic" mouvance is precisely to keep a
> >> distance from it.
> >>
> >> I entirely agree that even with this "Indic" critique of "Western
> >> Indology", a few things are seriously deficient. But a serious
> >> Indologist will recognize this as one voice in an array of criticism
> >> of Indology per se (see e.g.
> >> https://www.academia.edu/14688786/The_lost_honour_of_India_Studies).
> >> In particular, the great interest Western India-watchers take in class
> >> conflict within Hindu society, certainly comes in for a suspicion of
> >> neo-colonialism. Exploiting inter-native conflicts was a prime
> >> stratagem in colonization, e.g. Hernan Cortes conquered Mexico from
> >> the Aztecs by allying with disgruntled other tribes. And indeed, the
> >> "Breaking India" forces (such as the Christian Missionaries) extol
> >> this conflict beyond all proportion, thus making their own project of
> >> conquest ("rich harvest of souls" -- Pope JP II) invisible, at least
> >> to na?ve or wilfully blind observers.
> >>
> >> Indeed, "colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried
> >> out by European together with members of elite South Asian
> >> communities",--and, if the colonialist so chose, also with other
> >> agents, such as members of the Depressed Classes, e.g. Dr. Ambedkar
> >> serving on the Viceroy's council. The power struggle is indeed more
> >> complex than the native/foreign binary of the Indics, but also more
> >> complex than the "good subalterns plus their Western sympathizers vs.
> >> the ugly evil Brahmins" of the Indian Left and its Western sponsors
> >> (examples on request).
> >>
> >> Finally, I note the over-confident condemnation of the reference to
> >> "more than 5000 years of a continuous civilization" as an
> >> "anti-historical assertion". To the extent that this hints at the
> >> Aryan Invasion Theory, so dear to the hearts of the Breaking India
> >> forces, I will comply right away with the desire of most list members
> >> not to re-open te debate on this old saw.
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr. Koenraad Elst, neither Hindu nor nationalist
> >>
> >> _
>


-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 01:10:53 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 19:10:53 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
In-Reply-To: <CAPAr6cGNfbBG8aYJg1O0KhYYNRaSZ6QQBWtBJXY6jvUmi2x90Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcXKvEmN-hKw9fQmiPF0Qbu=S1pJV8VKufYiF2kNPYXBA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patricia,

It can help to remember that over seven hundred other members of INDOLOGY
read your post and most of them were certainly terribly shocked by your
experiences and understood the politics of what you went through.  That a
couple of vociferous people do not share our understanding of events is
statistically to be expected in a group this size, and it doesn't mean very
much.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 14:52, Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> It's unfortunate that I have shared a personal but relevant experience
> with this list only to be met with far right dog whistles and gaslighting.
> Just like the last time I joined a discussion about something beyond simply
> an ask for resources.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 9:17 PM Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Prof. Sauthoff & listfolk,
>>
>> Interesting: "Rather than continue this conversation with politically
>> charged attacks (...) I would like to" engage in politically charged
>> attacks on an unnamed "founding board member of AAIS".
>>
>> That's a very convenient kind of attack, for there is no way of
>> countering this attack. Look, I don't know this man, nor the whole
>> board of this AAIS, I don't know how white their souls are, and that
>> is not the point. Anyone has a right to be heard, and when I see the
>> names of august Indologists  like Arvind Sharma or Jefferey Long, I
>> very much doubt the judgment of those who clamour for banning an AAIS
>> announcement. Even if this allegation were true, it would be no worse
>> than any of the times that I myself have been the target of "efforts
>> to shut down academic freedom and integrity", and that consistently
>> failed to make me call for censorship or a form of repression against
>> them, or "deplatforming" as it is now called. There is no reason for
>> banning or stonewalling this AAIS just as there never was any reason
>> for me to demand anything similar against dissenters, not even the
>> despotic secularists & socialists who had gone out of their way to
>> smother my own voice.
>>
>> The answer to a bad conference is a better conference. In 2014, I was
>> among those participants of the European Conference of South Asian
>> Studies in Z?rich who signed a petition for freedom of expression
>> piloted by, I believe, Laurie Patton and our own Dominik Wujastyk, and
>> spefically against India's pro-censorship and anti-hate-speech law IPC
>> 295A, on the occasion of a censorship-oriented Hindutva (in this case
>> it is correct to call it that, Dinanath Batra being an RSS man) move
>> against Wendy Doniger's  'Alternative History of the Hindus' (see
>> https://www.academia.edu/36329232/In_favour_of_freedom_of_expression).
>> I whole-heartedly support freedom of expression, just as much for my
>> adversaries as for my friends. (This attitude is rarely reciprocated,
>> e.g. at that same conference, my own contribution was at the very last
>> moment censored from the congress proceedings of my panel.) If you
>> don't like a book, the only good answer is a better book, i.c. Vishal
>> Agarwal's counter-book detailing the numerous errors in Doniger's
>> unjustly famous book.
>>
>> It amused me to see how a number of people whom I had gotten to know
>> for their active or passive attempts to get me banned from other
>> forums, e.g. from the RISA-list (successfully, though in violation of
>> the list charter); now suddenly stood up for freedom, as this time it
>> was one of their own who was targeted. But it amused me even more that
>> all these anti-Hindutva heroes were standing up to a law that had now
>> been used by the Hindutva crowd, but that was actually (not just
>> enacted in order to protect Islam from Hindu criticism, but esp.) a
>> model for the "hate speech" codes that are now terrorizing academe in
>> the West, and that I knew many of them were supporting. Indeed, Art.
>> 295A IPC was a model hate speech law, and its British colonial
>> motivation is well worth remembering when surveying the clamour
>> against "hate speech" today. The Brits justified it by saying that
>> unlike themselves, the natives were not mature enough to deal with
>> criticism without going overboard. "Hate speech" laws are despotic by
>> nature. Decolonization implies abolishing them. Call me an
>> abolitionist.
>>
>> So, we have no need of being protected against this AAIS conference,
>> much less against the very mention of it. It represents one viewpoint,
>> and adherents of another viewpoint are welcome to express their own,
>> indeed they are already doing so. And to engage with the AAIS people
>> in order to make them see the supposed error of their ways. Indeed,
>> knowing those Hindu diaspora circles rather well, I make bold I can
>> get you, Patricia, invited to the conference and given time & the mike
>> to explain to them that they are wrong. They call that the Purva
>> Paksha, the counter-viewpoint, an integral part of the formation of
>> their own opinion.
>> .
>> In fact, reading on, I notice that you have had a similar idea yourself:
>>
>> > I have invited that same board member to my talks at several
>> conferences, they have not come to my talks or responded in any way.<
>>
>> OK, I take it upon myself to make communication between this AAIS
>> fellow and yourself possible. You can contact me off-list on
>> koenraad.elst at gmail.com. I greatly appreciate your willingness to talk
>> it out, as contrasting with the SJW decision that condescending to any
>> communication with "Hindutva" ogres is useless.
>>
>>
>> > One of the founding board members of AAIS is also on the board of
>> Nalanda University in Bihar, India. I taught at Nalanda several years ago,
>> helping to found the School of Buddhist Studies, Philosophy, and
>> Comparative Religion. (?) After my contract was not renewed and I was given
>> no reason, I had to argue with the university about my final pay (which I
>> have never received).<
>>
>> The Nalanda university was (re-) founded by a number of Leftist
>> intellectuals, with as poster boy the Nobel winner Amartya Sen. Its
>> selection of foreign professors was as partisan as what was to happen
>> under the BJP a few years later. But in a shameless show of
>> Congressite corruption, Nalanda was mismanaged so badly that it
>> accepted a take-over by the State. But then the BJP came to power,....
>>
>> So you were not paid. Well, that sounds familiar. Last December, a
>> number of list members including myself participated in a conference
>> in Sanchi University (founded as the BJP's answer to Nalanda). We had
>> been promised a reimbursement but then the BJP government was ousted
>> by Congress in state elections, so we got a new Education minister, a
>> new VC, and since then, no reimbursement. We have no direct
>> information, but the Indian media have reported that corrupt
>> Congressites had immediately started making up for the hungry years in
>> the opposition. Oh, and the University Board had also okayed my on
>> nomination as Visiting Professor; but that too has come to naught
>> since this political change. So, I am sorry for your loss, but I also
>> know from experience (and not just the incident related) that, well,
>> deplatforming happens, broken promises happen, plain stealing happens,
>> even regardless of ideology.
>>
>>
>> >  I woke up to an email from a journalist asking me if I had any
>> response to Ram Madhav's tweet about my course.<
>>
>> My God, we must be twin souls. Me too, I had a clash with Ram Madhav.
>> After having been deplatformed many times by the Left, it was this
>> Hindutva bigwig's turn to deplatform me. (He is the main addressee of
>> this open letter about the incident:
>>
>> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2014/12/letter-to-organizers-of-india-ideas.html
>> )
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I will also note that this board member joined the Nalanda board after
>> an RSS-linked administration was put into place.<
>>
>> From your info, I still can't know whom you mean. The blockhead
>> behaviour  you describe certainly indicates an RSS inspiration, though
>> my point remains valid: the current that prefers the term "Indic" as a
>> middling term between "Indian" and "Hindu" tries to mark itself off
>> against the RSS. But the RSS, like the Trotskyites of yore or the SJWs
>> today, persistently pursue an entryist policy.
>>
>> But thanks anyway for your testimony. I have seen the developments in
>> the Indian Council of Historical Research at close quarters, including
>> the impact of the BJP's rise to power. It was, as usual, a far cry
>> from what the supposed experts and India-watchers claim. Thus, Kapil
>> Kapoor & Michel Danino's excellent textbook about Indian knowledge
>> systems and India's contributions to the sciences, which should have
>> been a favourite of all Hindu-minded people, had been launched under
>> Congress but fell into disuse under the BJP. Far from packing the
>> field with pro-Hindu scholars, the RSS idea of dominating an
>> institution was to use this occasion (normally seized upon for
>> nominating dynamic people ready to change the game) only to reward
>> incompetent gerontocrats with plum sinecure posts and not change
>> anything. So you say that in Nalanda they did affirm their ideology;
>> maybe, but so far not higher than at Twitter level.
>>
>>
>> > That board member certainly did not speak up for academic integrity at
>> that or any other point. I am offended that an organization would publish a
>> conference listing on this list of international scholars when one of its
>> own board members remained silent (and in my mind complicit) with these
>> threats. I am disheartened that not a single member of their board, full of
>> esteemed academics, did not at least speak out against the violent threats
>> made toward me. I am angry that not one of them spoke up for academic
>> freedom.<
>>
>> As a habitual receiver of threats since 30 years, I certainly don't
>> approve of threats. But ever since I got  scared somewhat by a
>> Khalistani threat back then, I have learned that they are not truly
>> scary. Cheer up, those who are serious about harming you are not the
>> ones who first send a warning to you with threats. Twitter is just
>> words. Nevertheless, those esteemed academics should have supported
>> you, indeed. But again, it is not only in your case that they abandon
>> the victims. When terrorists attacked (not just threatened but
>> actually attacked) a Mo cartoon event by Pamela Geller and Robert
>> Spencer in Texas, both presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and
>> Donald Trump refused to sympathize without ifs or buts. After the
>> Danish cartoon affair, the AAA at its subsequent annual conference
>> held a panel on it, where all six panelists and the moderator just
>> couldn't get it across their lips to simply support the cartoonists.
>> All of them started out to this effect: "I am all for freedom of
>> expression, BUT..." All of them ended up blaming the victim, though
>> some avoided becoming too explicit about that. So, Patricia, join the
>> club.
>>
>>
>> >There is your clear link between AAIS and Hindutva..<
>>
>> Clear?! Well, no, I don't see any big Hindutva name on that website, I
>> really wonder whom you mean. Names of moderate figures like Arvind
>> Sharma or Jeffrey Long suggest something else. Then again, they have
>> indeed begged for comprehension of the Hindu position once in a while,
>> and for most India-watchers, that would immediately stamp them
>> "Hindutva". Here, the India-watchers (and within India, the so-called
>> secularists) and the RSS make common cause: they both claim that
>> anyone defending anything Hindu is "an RSS man". In reality, there is
>> a whole array of non-Sanghi yet pro-Hindu voices arising, and the
>> "Indic" current (led by Hari Kiran Vadlamani) is one of them.
>>
>> There is a slogan nowadays: "Hindus against Hindutva". It has been
>> launched by anti-Hindu forces, and with "Hindutva" is meant any
>> defence of anything Hindu. They want the freedom to attack Hinduism
>> left and right, and any defence against those attacks is a nuisance
>> that we should be "against". But let us take them at their word: they
>> have at least correctly distinguished between Hinduism and Hindutva.
>> But let's see in practice how long they can keep this up. For my
>> experience over the last 30 years is that the least sign of life in
>> Hinduism, of not succumbing to suicidal behaviour, is at once
>> demonized as "Hindutva".
>>
>> The psychology behind this, is that they like Hinduism alright, as
>> long as it is only "museum Hinduism". This goes back to the Christian
>> Missionaries, who mostly had a genuine sympathy for much of the
>> culture they had come to destroy (by replacement with Christianity),
>> e.g. by writing descriptions of these dying cultures (e.g. the Edda,
>> or de Sahagun's writings on the Amerindian culture). Today, things
>> like Bharat Natyam or Carnatic music are still tolerated, they give
>> some colour to life. But when Hinduism resists being phased out, it
>> immediately gets criminalized as "Hindutva". This very colonial
>> attitude of accepting the Other only when he gives no sign of life
>> anymore, is like visiting a museum where everything is passive and
>> dead; but then suddenly, Tut-Ankh-Amon's mummy starts to move his arm,
>> and then even to raise his voice. Oh, that is not so nice anymore,
>> that is -- dare I say it? -- "Hindutva". In such a scary moment,
>> people don't think rationally anymore, so all distinctions disappear,
>> it all just becomes "Hindutva".
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> Dr. Koenraad Elst
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 5:28 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear listfolk,
>> >>
>> >> Seems a just-begun draft made it to my outbox. Anyway, this will make
>> >> my analysis a lot shorter and more readable.
>> >>
>> >> The many Sanskritists and other ivory-tower-dwellers on this list will
>> >> not like the irruption of politics into their lofty discipline. But
>> >> like it or not, Indology just happens to be far more politicized than
>> >> e.g. Sinology. So I for one don't mind accepting Tyler Williams'
>> >> apologies for troubling us with the politics of it all. And he in turn
>> >> shouldn't mind comments on his position, by Nagaraj and now by me,
>> >> especially since he chooses to burden this list with an in-your-face
>> >> allegation against a fellow list member.
>> >>
>> >> >With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I
>> must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed
>> "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology
>> listserve being used to promote this event.<
>> >>
>> >> He surely hasn't missed his entr?e. Right away, he leaves us in no
>> >> doubt about where he stands. It is customary for a certain ideological
>> >> school, the self-styled SJWs, to deny its adversaries legitimacy for
>> >> not only the contents but even for the definitional status of their
>> >> "publications". As a marked "scholar" with a "PhD" who writes "books"
>> >> and "papers", I recognize from afar the political implications of the
>> >> expression "conference". As if it were anything else than a
>> >> conference. And I don't get disappointed, for the next part of the
>> >> opening sentence already is a request for deplatforming his chosen
>> >> adversary, -- deplatforming being the absolute favourite in very that
>> >> school's armoury. That just begs to be "problematized".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva
>> ideological project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only
>> hostile to the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list
>> but that also aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and
>> even violence against our colleagues in India.<
>> >>
>> >> "Even violence"? My oh my, what have we got here on this list?
>> >> Lavanya, is that you?
>> >>
>> >> But I do know of a target of Leftist violence, viz. Vivek Agnihotri,
>> >> the coiner of the term "Urban Naxal", to which Williams objects. It is
>> >> a verifiable fact that several Leftist public figures, from Sanjay
>> >> Dutt on down, have physically made common cause with terrorists; and
>> >> that hundreds have verbally supported terrorists. Personally I think
>> >> that that is allowed, you could e.g. give reasoned arguments for
>> >> Kashmiri separatism all while this cause is equally defended with
>> >> terror by others. But to oppose it is equally permitted, and it seems
>> >> Hindus are no longer taking it lying down and have joined the battle
>> >> of discourse. As an ex-Marxist, I think the adoption of such colourful
>> >> fighting terms tends to be a crucial moment in the history of an
>> >> emancipation movement.
>> >>
>> >> And "Hindutva" project? The story of this recent "Indic" movement is
>> >> precisely a concern to distance themselves from the legitimate
>> >> "Hindutva" crowd, meaning the HMS and Sangh Parivar, who swear by
>> >> "nationalism". The more successful the Parivar has become politically,
>> >> the hazier and clumsier it has become ideologically, so it is facing
>> >> several budding alternatives within Hindu politics. A first paper of
>> >> mine about this is already 8 years old
>> >> (
>> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/08/hindu-activism-outside-sangh.html
>> ),
>> >> but has never made any dent in the standard narrative.
>> >>
>> >> Most "experts" on the subject make a very loose, pamphlet-like use of
>> >> the term Hindutva. Yet, it has a precise definition, given by the
>> >> founder himself. A fast criterion for objectivity in reporting, and a
>> >> fortiori in scholarship, is using the terms which the people
>> >> themselves use for themselves, with any qualifiers being separate and
>> >> made recognizable as such. The context in which VD Savarkar started
>> >> the political use of this term for "Hinduness" (coined in 19th-century
>> >> Bengal in the same sense) in 1923, was nationalism, and hence the only
>> >> permissible extension of its meaning is as "Hindu nationalism",
>> >> identified with the Hindu Mahasabha and the Sangh Parivar. However,
>> >> the story of this recent "Indic" mouvance is precisely to keep a
>> >> distance from it.
>> >>
>> >> I entirely agree that even with this "Indic" critique of "Western
>> >> Indology", a few things are seriously deficient. But a serious
>> >> Indologist will recognize this as one voice in an array of criticism
>> >> of Indology per se (see e.g.
>> >> https://www.academia.edu/14688786/The_lost_honour_of_India_Studies).
>> >> In particular, the great interest Western India-watchers take in class
>> >> conflict within Hindu society, certainly comes in for a suspicion of
>> >> neo-colonialism. Exploiting inter-native conflicts was a prime
>> >> stratagem in colonization, e.g. Hernan Cortes conquered Mexico from
>> >> the Aztecs by allying with disgruntled other tribes. And indeed, the
>> >> "Breaking India" forces (such as the Christian Missionaries) extol
>> >> this conflict beyond all proportion, thus making their own project of
>> >> conquest ("rich harvest of souls" -- Pope JP II) invisible, at least
>> >> to na?ve or wilfully blind observers.
>> >>
>> >> Indeed, "colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried
>> >> out by European together with members of elite South Asian
>> >> communities",--and, if the colonialist so chose, also with other
>> >> agents, such as members of the Depressed Classes, e.g. Dr. Ambedkar
>> >> serving on the Viceroy's council. The power struggle is indeed more
>> >> complex than the native/foreign binary of the Indics, but also more
>> >> complex than the "good subalterns plus their Western sympathizers vs.
>> >> the ugly evil Brahmins" of the Indian Left and its Western sponsors
>> >> (examples on request).
>> >>
>> >> Finally, I note the over-confident condemnation of the reference to
>> >> "more than 5000 years of a continuous civilization" as an
>> >> "anti-historical assertion". To the extent that this hints at the
>> >> Aryan Invasion Theory, so dear to the hearts of the Breaking India
>> >> forces, I will comply right away with the desire of most list members
>> >> not to re-open te debate on this old saw.
>> >>
>> >> Kind regards,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dr. Koenraad Elst, neither Hindu nor nationalist
>> >>
>> >> _
>>
>
>
> --
> Patricia Sauthoff
> Postdoctoral Fellow
> AyurYog.org
> Department of History and Classics
> University of Alberta
> Edmonton, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From bill.m.mak at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 01:18:51 2019
From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 10:18:51 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81_in_early_Vedic_materials=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekbi=eQB=p4O2uYTcXdXzB6oF_d23eVtPjvMbYpcBrK=SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70056AB0-D513-4144-A66B-40996541805D@gmail.com>

Dear David,

Yano?s article was first read during the World Sanskrit Conference held in Kyoto, 2009, and was published in the latest issue of Journal of Indian Studies (???????) Nos. 28 & 29, 65-74 (2016-2017).

Best regards,

Bill Mak

> On Jun 29, 2019, at 1:40 AM, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Bill,
> 
> The paper that you refer to by Yano, "The Nak?atra system of the Atharvaveda-Pari?i??a", 2009, does not show up in his list of publications:
> 
> https://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/pdf/bibyano.pdf <https://www.cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/pdf/bibyano.pdf>
> 
> Is it available somewhere? I could not find it. Thanks.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 3:21 PM Bill Mak via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear Jean,
> 
> Thank you for the Thibaut reference. It seems indeed easier to explain the differences using an accretive model. Especially since a sidereal month is 27.3 days, 27 may be a nice rounded number, and Abhijit was added later to account for the remainder. Furthermore, in the unequal nak?atra system Abhijit was always made very small both in terms of measurement of arcs on the ecliptic and the duration traversed by the Moon. I am however cautious and I try to imagine in my head a p?rvapak?a trying to explain how 28 could have become 27 instead!
> 
> Using VJ as a historical point of reference is not so easy. As Pingree and others have pointed out (Pingree, jyoti???stra, 1981), there are evidences that there are layers of astronomical materials from different periods, and for other philological reasons he dated VJ to 400 B.C. Astronomically speaking, one finds in VJ the 27 nak?atras beginning with K?ttik? as in the Vedic sa?hit?s. But then they were used not as constellations, but equal divisions of 13;20 deg on the ecliptic. More clues of this adaptation may be gleaned from Som?kara?s Bh??ya. Yano ("The Nak?atra system of the Atharvaveda-Pari?i??a", 2009) pointed out that the initial point of ecliptic coordinate in VJ was placed not at K?ttik? or as later at A?vn?, but rather in between at Bhara?? 10 deg. So there is a handful of information to be disentangled.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Bill
>   
> -- 
> Bill M. Mak
> 
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
> Japan
> ?606-8501 ??????????
> ???????????
> 
> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
> 
> copies of my publications may be found at:
> http://www.billmak.com <http://www.billmak.com/>
> http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak <http://kyoto-u.academia.edu/BillMak>



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 02:57:59 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 19 20:57:59 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cc5nxMUkxc0qHjYxNzt5wCT3=jN3vdj+Z54EGNHNVZxbA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel
moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please
think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good
thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending
such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the
support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this
list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human
fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our
community.  We care about each other and will support each other when
attacked.

Best wishes,
Dominik


--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 05:58:36 2019
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 11:28:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc5nxMUkxc0qHjYxNzt5wCT3=jN3vdj+Z54EGNHNVZxbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYP_o8nufCvGOTyz4ZiyvYLXDq0OwtGi0J724w3mSqbEg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I second the words of Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, though with a small
modification in a few words. (Highlighting the modified part.)

When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel
moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please
think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good
thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending
such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the
support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this
list and beyond, that there is a ground-well of kindness, of human
fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst *us whether we are in
majority or in minority in a certain group.*  We care about each other and
will support each other when attacked.

Best wishes,
Nagaraj


On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 8:28 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel
> moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please
> think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good
> thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending
> such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the
> support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this
> list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human
> fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our
> community.  We care about each other and will support each other when
> attacked.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dominik
>
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> sas.ualberta.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 06:11:15 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 11:41:15 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Medinikosha and Nanartharnavasankshepa - request for scan
Message-ID: <CADSGPzU07qBG_GWupQv5AytbpUvbd5L+zS_AGnZtduEsPEo__Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
Would anyone of you kindly guide me to a decent quality scans of the
following works please -
1. N?n?rth?r?avasa?k?epa of Ke?avasv?min
2. N?n?rtha?abdako?a of Medinikara.

I have scans probably gathered from archive.org which are not legible.
Visarga, anusv?ra etc are not visible at places.

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 08:52:03 2019
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 14:22:03 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Medinikosha and Nanartharnavasankshepa - request for scan
In-Reply-To: <CADSGPzU07qBG_GWupQv5AytbpUvbd5L+zS_AGnZtduEsPEo__Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUg2JS16w0xyc3N=SODXeMcu48en5ZpOCk9UR7Arusoiw@mail.gmail.com>

Respected Scholars,
Thanks to Mr. Harunaga Isaacson and Mr. Victor B. D'Avella for their help.
I now have the requested scans.
For reference these are the fair scans (at least for my purpose).

???????????????????? - ?
https://archive.org/details/TSS023NanartharnavasamkshepaOfKesavaswamTGSastriPart1_201809
???????????????????? - ?
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.283537
?????????
https://archive.org/details/Docfoc.comMediniKosha1940Chowkhamba_201608



On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 at 11:41, Dhaval Patel <drdhaval2785 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear scholars,
> Would anyone of you kindly guide me to a decent quality scans of the
> following works please -
> 1. N?n?rth?r?avasa?k?epa of Ke?avasv?min
> 2. N?n?rtha?abdako?a of Medinikara.
>
> I have scans probably gathered from archive.org which are not legible.
> Visarga, anusv?ra etc are not visible at places.
>
> --
> Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
> Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
> www.sanskritworld.in
>


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From peter.schreiner at aoi.uzh.ch  Sat Jun 29 11:16:36 2019
From: peter.schreiner at aoi.uzh.ch (Peter Schreiner)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 13:16:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yoga Bibliography
Message-ID: <c32148e2-fde1-8375-fb71-9606dcd7fabe@aoi.uzh.ch>


As Dominik has so promptly discovered something went fundamentally wrong 
while preparing the "export" version of "A Yoga Bibliography". My 
apologies! Just delete what you have already downloaded and kindly wait 
until further notice. (I shall have checked the result before uploading 
it, next time!)

Sorry! And all the best,

Peter Schreiner

-- 
Peter Schreiner
Chemin de Boracles 94
1008 Jouxtens-M?zery
Switzerland

Tel. +41-21-635 0365
mobile: +41-76-422 0365
email: peter.schreiner at aoi.uzh.ch






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun 29 13:19:04 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 06:19:04 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzc7Q+DsDzrSq2Qk9AJRi-bLATFbH9B7TJC7=eKX=GpsJg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???? ???????? ????: ???????: ?
?? ?????????? ??????????? ???: ???????

The sky is like the sky and the ocean is like the ocean. With what can be
compared Krishna who bears all forms in the universe?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 16:16:30 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 18:16:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cc5nxMUkxc0qHjYxNzt5wCT3=jN3vdj+Z54EGNHNVZxbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zH0O-8b1AK8xc+OxazwKFGHGG63GoGd6gK8_Eo35DArqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,

Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
become so rare that it deserves special mention.

Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.

As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
that you'll never get to feel this.

When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.

Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
the lid has carefully been kept (except in
http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/).

Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
(though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates) were
the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.

But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
toleration in free speech on this forum.



Kind regards,


Koenraad Elst

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our community.  We care about each other and will support each other when attacked.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dominik
>
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> Department of History and Classics,
> University of Alberta, Canada.
> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Jun 29 18:18:11 2019
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 12:18:11 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CALOY_zH0O-8b1AK8xc+OxazwKFGHGG63GoGd6gK8_Eo35DArqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcSv9XcrUmxe1MyO1cYxPxybm5q0xzJE-hTMzBXD04Crg@mail.gmail.com>

I just want to take up your point about Copernicus.  It's just as well that
you don't want to compare yourself with him: his *De revolutionibus orbium
coelestium* was published in the year of his death.  Copernicus did not
live to experience the reception of his work in the way you suggest.  He's
a bad example for your arguments for other reasons too, since successors
like Brahe accepted his mathematics without accepting his physical model of
the solar system.  This is valid, incidentally: the mathematics of Ptolemy
works rather well as a predictive model for planetary and celestial
predictions.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Jun 29 18:45:19 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 20:45:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Giovanni Verardi's 2018 Gods and Heretics
Message-ID: <CALNcvFtUyG7djoKEq+QadXjFEMBzu_H=mcwMXLu7WXYBiZWG=g@mail.gmail.com>

Apart from Bamford's 2016 review of the earlier (2011) version of the book
- are there any newer reviews?

Regards,

Artur Karp (ret.)

Department of South Asian Studies (Faculty of Oriental Studies, University
of Warsaw)


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Sat Jun 29 19:45:23 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 13:45:23 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CALOY_zH0O-8b1AK8xc+OxazwKFGHGG63GoGd6gK8_Eo35DArqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ@mail.gmail.com>

For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right, you may
enjoy reading this short article
http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.

Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.

In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
<https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
and Robert Spencer
<https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right anti-Muslim activists.
Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
guard was shot
<https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.

These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers were cited for their
anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
is
now canon among the violent far-right as it lays out tactics and strategies
for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
manifesto.

To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right is its penchant for
making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
publication
<https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
the anti-fascist movement
<https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"

Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
targets, i.e., some of us.





On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:17 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
>
> Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
> exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
> to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
> become so rare that it deserves special mention.
>
> Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
> fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
> support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
> They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
> career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
> Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
> expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.
>
> As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
> list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
> experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
> hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
> hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
> had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
> expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
> big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
> right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
> course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
> acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
> I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
> quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
> that you'll never get to feel this.
>
> When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
> minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
> references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
> resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
> abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
> he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
> only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.
>
> Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
> insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
> matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
> ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
> replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
> in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
> late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
> camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
> pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
> concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
> consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
> abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
> site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
> this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
> speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
> their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
> suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
> and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
> deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
> condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
> witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
> had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
> historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
> the lid has carefully been kept (except in
> http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/).
>
> Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
> emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
> partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
> (though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
> Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
> see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates) were
> the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
> wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
> attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
> and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
> right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.
>
> But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
> episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
> toleration in free speech on this forum.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Koenraad Elst
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you
> feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support,
> please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very
> good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But
> sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of
> the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on
> this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human
> fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our
> community.  We care about each other and will support each other when
> attacked.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Dominik
> >
> >
> > --
> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> > Department of History and Classics,
> > University of Alberta, Canada.
> > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada


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From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de  Sat Jun 29 23:08:04 2019
From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 01:08:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcXKvEmN-hKw9fQmiPF0Qbu=S1pJV8VKufYiF2kNPYXBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D17EF54.3020402@uni-muenchen.de>

? (that should be a 'thumb up', in the absence of a 'like' button),

Robert Zydenbos

-- 
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
Department of Asian Studies
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU)
Germany

Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote:

> Dear Patricia,
>
> It can help to remember that over seven hundred other members of INDOLOGY read your post and most of them were certainly terribly shocked by your experiences and understood the politics of what you went through.  That a couple of vociferous people do not share our understanding of events is statistically to be expected in a group this size, and it doesn't mean very much.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>  
> sas.ualberta.ca <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 at 14:52, Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>     It's unfortunate that I have shared a personal but relevant experience with this list only to be met with far right dog whistles and gaslighting. Just like the last time I joined a discussion about something beyond simply an ask for resources. 
>
>
>
>     On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 9:17 PM Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst at gmail.com <mailto:koenraad.elst at gmail.com>> wrote:



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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 00:27:24 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 02:27:24 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zFV_ow70-2OMES4f=t_baWpe5qNUzHT9VPyQoCsMC-vHg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear listfolk,

About Copernicus, I knew very well that he didn't live to see the
reaction to his theory, and I had always learned that that was on
purpose: he knew his theory was unorthodox and risked repression from
his own employer, the Church. That doesn't make him a bad example of
the only thing for which I used him as an example, viz. being a
minority of one and still being right.

Then Patricia's screaming political tirade. It didn't take long for us
all to receive an example of the "kindness" and "fellow-feeling" that
Dominik waxed so eloquent about. Those list members who are allergic
to politics and waiting for an occasion to blame me for the dirtying
of their list with politics: please note where this injection of
politics has come from. The whole letter consists in a favourite
debating tactic among people who don't know a given subject, viz. to
divert attention away from it, here mainly with the SJW rhetorical
tactic par excellence: guilt by association.

Note first of all that none of the specifically Indological points I
made has been addressed. Instead we are treated to a list of SJW
jargon unrelated to India, much of which was unknown to me and
certainly also to many other list members. Thus, "gaslighting" seems
to mean, according to the article she refers to: "disingenuously
redefining a concept beyond recognition". I have no idea which part of
my message this could refer to, I certainly have never consciously
done such a thing. And I know for sure that she has no way of knowing
that my allegedly doing this was "disingenuous": you may see what
someone does, but for his motive behind this action, you need either
his own statement of motive, which in this case I have never given; or
you have to have telepathic powers. I didn't know we had paranormally
gifted people on this list (or superstitious people only believing
that they can read others' minds). Then again, with a teacher of the
History of Yoga, we should be ready for some siddhis. And come to
think of it, maybe some other Yoga Sutra virtues too, like
self-control and friendliness, not quite in evidence here.

It is really rich to be accused of "victimization" by someone who has
just volunteered a message almost entirely about her own victimization
at Nalanda. By the way, it was unfair for her to be fired so unkindly,
but it was first of all a great privilege for such a junior scholar to
be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious
international university; I know quite a few Indian whiz kids who have
been totally excluded from careers in the Humanities because they were
classified as "right-wing", in India merely a code for "non-suicidally
Hindu". I don't indulge in victimhood talk, her own SJW crowd is so
much better at it; but it is simply a verifiable fact that I have been
excluded or disinvited numerous times. The exclusion that she bitterly
complains about for having lived through it once, I have experienced
many times. And that is not a "right-wing tactic", a figment of her
own conspiratorial worldview, but a naked fact. Most of us here are
scholars, for whom facts are sacred. Are you really one of us,
Patricia?

Yes, I have been quoted by Anders Breivik. Well actually, no, I
haven't. His Manifesto reproduces many articles by other people, and
in two of those, I am being quoted. This looks like a shrill drama for
pedestrians who only read headlines, but scholars get to read the
whole story. I am the only person with the honour of figuring in the
Manifesto both in a positive and a negative role. Negatively, the
quoted pseudonymous author Fjordman takes me to task for arguing that
the Muslim demographic explosion in Europe need not be a cause for
worry. (Disagree with me, Patricia?) Positively, Breivik builds his
case against Islam by citing numerous testimonies about difficult
episodes in Islamic history, and this includes my own paper about the
Islamic renaming of the Hindu Koh (Hindu mountain) as Hindu Kush
(Hindu Slaughter). I have since then not been given any reason by
anyone to change anything in my paper
(https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/10/meaning-of-hindu-kush.html).
I stand by that paper, which restates verifiable facts, and these do
not change just because Breivik joins the many others who accept them.
Indeed, many unquestioned authorities in the field are quoted by him.
Briefly, Breivik had enough brains to figure out an issue and select
the best sources about it (such as Winston Churchill, the crucial
anti-Nazi), but he was a misguided fanatic, an illuminatus who thought
he knew it all better than even the political parties that shared his
concerns, and which he had given up on since for him, only armed
struggle was the answer. We may compare him to Abimael Guzman, the
Peruvian philosophy professor who founded the terrorist group Sendero
Luminoso and killed many more people. My general view on Breivik can
be read here: https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-only-anders-beirvik-had-read.html.

About Patricia Geller I don't know much, but I know Robert Spencer
personally, and he is an impeccable scholar who has beaten his critics
in debate many times. If any of you thinks you know his subject better
than he himself, I trust he is ready for an open debate. But what he
says and how good he says it, is not the point here. Freedom of speech
is universal, it is not limited to only those you agree with. Well,
for their free expression, they have been targeted by terrorists.
Fortunately, they had hired security (which the FBI wasn't ready to
provide), who succeeded in eliminating the attackers, though one guard
got "victimized" himself. That was of course done by the terrorists,
not by Geller & Spencer, who get the blame here. The terrorists, by
contrast, are shielded here by remaining unmentioned. There was talk
here about the neologism "Urban Naxal", which connects Left-wing
intellectuals with the terrorists they defend or make a common
political cause with. Well, here you get a ready-made example: the
terrorists try to kill scholars for their criticism of a religion
(which Karl Marx considered the beginning of all criticism), and a
Leftist professor seconds them with slander of and a false insinuation
against the victims. Reread your own words, Patricia: you are so eager
to rage against anyone you can associate with me that you actually
attack the victims of a terrorist attack.

No, I do not reduce everything to free speech issues. I have written
on numerous other topics, and fortunately for me, I don't normally
busy myself with answering SJW polemics. But here we happen to be
dealing with real free speech issues, including one that Patricia
brought up. When scholars, whether we like them or not, are attacked
by terrorists, it is our duty to stand with the targeted scholars, not
with the terrorists. And free speech is important: far from being a
"Right-wing tactic", it is indispensable for liberty and democracy. I
hope you all care about those.

Conclusion. Just after the listmaster tried to settle this commotion
peacefully but in a pro-Patricia sense, she herself badly blew it.
Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an
august subject like yoga (which need not be a big deal at her age),
Patricia Sauthoff has the capacity to learn, like most of us. She has
just been caught in the act of slander against a fellow list member,
but she can take it as a learning moment and move on. I believe in
learning, e.g. in believers outgrowing a silly religious doctrine, and
I will not make an exception for the deluded followers of the SJW
doctrine. I just received a crash course in how morbid and hateful it
can be, and am now eager to set my mind on more positive things.
Apologies for talking so much about myself, but I was attacked on so
many points, and since no one here is going to speak up for me, I had
to do it myself.

Best regards,

Dr. Koenraad Elst

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 9:44 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right, you may enjoy reading this short article http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/, You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting, to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle. Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right anti-Muslim activists. Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security guard was shot at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers were cited for their anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto is now canon among the violent far-right as it lays out tactics and strategies for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right is its penchant for making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online publication ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to the anti-fascist movement. The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of targets, i.e., some of us.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:17 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dominik,
>>
>> Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
>> exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
>> to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
>> become so rare that it deserves special mention.
>>
>> Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
>> fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
>> support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
>> They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
>> career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
>> Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
>> expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.
>>
>> As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
>> list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
>> experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
>> hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
>> hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
>> had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
>> expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
>> big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
>> right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
>> course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
>> acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
>> I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
>> quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
>> that you'll never get to feel this.
>>
>> When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
>> minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
>> references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
>> resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
>> abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
>> he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
>> only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.
>>
>> Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
>> insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
>> matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
>> ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
>> replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
>> in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
>> late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
>> camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
>> pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
>> concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
>> consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
>> abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
>> site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
>> this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
>> speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
>> their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
>> suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
>> and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
>> deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
>> condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
>> witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
>> had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
>> historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
>> the lid has carefully been kept (except in
>> http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/).
>>
>> Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
>> emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
>> partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
>> (though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
>> Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
>> see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates) were
>> the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
>> wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
>> attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
>> and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
>> right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.
>>
>> But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
>> episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
>> toleration in free speech on this forum.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Koenraad Elst
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear colleagues,
>> >
>> > When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our community.  We care about each other and will support each other when attacked.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> > Dominik
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
>> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
>> > Department of History and Classics,
>> > University of Alberta, Canada.
>> > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
> Patricia Sauthoff
> Postdoctoral Fellow
> AyurYog.org
> Department of History and Classics
> University of Alberta
> Edmonton, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 00:50:48 2019
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 20:50:48 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcSv9XcrUmxe1MyO1cYxPxybm5q0xzJE-hTMzBXD04Crg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQGWfRuSx-DdyJQcMnJ=3Ns9v=bvwGhyR91N2PuZNFdM7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 5:34 PM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
' ' '

> This is valid, incidentally: the mathematics of Ptolemy works rather well
> as a predictive model for planetary and celestial predictions.
>

Good point and  Ptolemy's astronomical mathematical methodology (epicycles)
can be used to match any orbit in space to any accuracy.

Harry Spier


> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> sas.ualberta.ca
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From rhododaktylos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 00:53:50 2019
From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 01:53:50 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CALOY_zFV_ow70-2OMES4f=t_baWpe5qNUzHT9VPyQoCsMC-vHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEjEOsAxbnOfq37u9jZSkZodkZsbSVabF5-TymEpA=_pW5nGKA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Koenraad,

I usually try to read your emails all the way through, even though their
length does not invite that. (Which, by the way, also is a well-known
technique: just put something very long and mostly undigested in front of
others, so that they have to spend the time and energy to work their way
through it and perhaps even feel they need to respond to it all.)

With your last email, I just made it to the words 'Patricia's screaming
tirade' to know I didn't have to go on reading.

Dominik, thank you for your email. You are absolutely right that it isn't
enough to voice our support for others privately; but we need to do it in
public on-list. I would thus hereby like to voice my public support to
Patricia and everyone who has spoken up, in detail but never lenghtily,
about AAIS.

While I don't think that further discussion of AAIS is *needed* to show the
true colours of the organisation, one brief observation on AJIS made by a
friend not on this list may still be of interest:

"I note that in the few instances when the terms ?Muslim? and ?Islam?
appear on the website or in the journal that they serve merely as markers
of difference with ?Hindus? and ?Hinduism,? and ?Islamic civilization? is
pointedly juxtaposed with ?Indic civilization"."

Finally, I support any initiatives there may be for amending the guidelines
of the Indology list, especially as concerns explicit prohibition of
gaslighting and dog-whistling. This list is a valuable (and invaluable!)
resource for all of us, and we should not allow it, or our field, to be
used by any person or organisation that aims to sow unacademic dissent
among countries, religions or individuals.

All the best,
      Antonia

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, 01:28 Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear listfolk,
>
> About Copernicus, I knew very well that he didn't live to see the
> reaction to his theory, and I had always learned that that was on
> purpose: he knew his theory was unorthodox and risked repression from
> his own employer, the Church. That doesn't make him a bad example of
> the only thing for which I used him as an example, viz. being a
> minority of one and still being right.
>
> Then Patricia's screaming political tirade. It didn't take long for us
> all to receive an example of the "kindness" and "fellow-feeling" that
> Dominik waxed so eloquent about. Those list members who are allergic
> to politics and waiting for an occasion to blame me for the dirtying
> of their list with politics: please note where this injection of
> politics has come from. The whole letter consists in a favourite
> debating tactic among people who don't know a given subject, viz. to
> divert attention away from it, here mainly with the SJW rhetorical
> tactic par excellence: guilt by association.
>
> Note first of all that none of the specifically Indological points I
> made has been addressed. Instead we are treated to a list of SJW
> jargon unrelated to India, much of which was unknown to me and
> certainly also to many other list members. Thus, "gaslighting" seems
> to mean, according to the article she refers to: "disingenuously
> redefining a concept beyond recognition". I have no idea which part of
> my message this could refer to, I certainly have never consciously
> done such a thing. And I know for sure that she has no way of knowing
> that my allegedly doing this was "disingenuous": you may see what
> someone does, but for his motive behind this action, you need either
> his own statement of motive, which in this case I have never given; or
> you have to have telepathic powers. I didn't know we had paranormally
> gifted people on this list (or superstitious people only believing
> that they can read others' minds). Then again, with a teacher of the
> History of Yoga, we should be ready for some siddhis. And come to
> think of it, maybe some other Yoga Sutra virtues too, like
> self-control and friendliness, not quite in evidence here.
>
> It is really rich to be accused of "victimization" by someone who has
> just volunteered a message almost entirely about her own victimization
> at Nalanda. By the way, it was unfair for her to be fired so unkindly,
> but it was first of all a great privilege for such a junior scholar to
> be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious
> international university; I know quite a few Indian whiz kids who have
> been totally excluded from careers in the Humanities because they were
> classified as "right-wing", in India merely a code for "non-suicidally
> Hindu". I don't indulge in victimhood talk, her own SJW crowd is so
> much better at it; but it is simply a verifiable fact that I have been
> excluded or disinvited numerous times. The exclusion that she bitterly
> complains about for having lived through it once, I have experienced
> many times. And that is not a "right-wing tactic", a figment of her
> own conspiratorial worldview, but a naked fact. Most of us here are
> scholars, for whom facts are sacred. Are you really one of us,
> Patricia?
>
> Yes, I have been quoted by Anders Breivik. Well actually, no, I
> haven't. His Manifesto reproduces many articles by other people, and
> in two of those, I am being quoted. This looks like a shrill drama for
> pedestrians who only read headlines, but scholars get to read the
> whole story. I am the only person with the honour of figuring in the
> Manifesto both in a positive and a negative role. Negatively, the
> quoted pseudonymous author Fjordman takes me to task for arguing that
> the Muslim demographic explosion in Europe need not be a cause for
> worry. (Disagree with me, Patricia?) Positively, Breivik builds his
> case against Islam by citing numerous testimonies about difficult
> episodes in Islamic history, and this includes my own paper about the
> Islamic renaming of the Hindu Koh (Hindu mountain) as Hindu Kush
> (Hindu Slaughter). I have since then not been given any reason by
> anyone to change anything in my paper
> (https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/10/meaning-of-hindu-kush.html).
> I stand by that paper, which restates verifiable facts, and these do
> not change just because Breivik joins the many others who accept them.
> Indeed, many unquestioned authorities in the field are quoted by him.
> Briefly, Breivik had enough brains to figure out an issue and select
> the best sources about it (such as Winston Churchill, the crucial
> anti-Nazi), but he was a misguided fanatic, an illuminatus who thought
> he knew it all better than even the political parties that shared his
> concerns, and which he had given up on since for him, only armed
> struggle was the answer. We may compare him to Abimael Guzman, the
> Peruvian philosophy professor who founded the terrorist group Sendero
> Luminoso and killed many more people. My general view on Breivik can
> be read here:
> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-only-anders-beirvik-had-read.html
> .
>
> About Patricia Geller I don't know much, but I know Robert Spencer
> personally, and he is an impeccable scholar who has beaten his critics
> in debate many times. If any of you thinks you know his subject better
> than he himself, I trust he is ready for an open debate. But what he
> says and how good he says it, is not the point here. Freedom of speech
> is universal, it is not limited to only those you agree with. Well,
> for their free expression, they have been targeted by terrorists.
> Fortunately, they had hired security (which the FBI wasn't ready to
> provide), who succeeded in eliminating the attackers, though one guard
> got "victimized" himself. That was of course done by the terrorists,
> not by Geller & Spencer, who get the blame here. The terrorists, by
> contrast, are shielded here by remaining unmentioned. There was talk
> here about the neologism "Urban Naxal", which connects Left-wing
> intellectuals with the terrorists they defend or make a common
> political cause with. Well, here you get a ready-made example: the
> terrorists try to kill scholars for their criticism of a religion
> (which Karl Marx considered the beginning of all criticism), and a
> Leftist professor seconds them with slander of and a false insinuation
> against the victims. Reread your own words, Patricia: you are so eager
> to rage against anyone you can associate with me that you actually
> attack the victims of a terrorist attack.
>
> No, I do not reduce everything to free speech issues. I have written
> on numerous other topics, and fortunately for me, I don't normally
> busy myself with answering SJW polemics. But here we happen to be
> dealing with real free speech issues, including one that Patricia
> brought up. When scholars, whether we like them or not, are attacked
> by terrorists, it is our duty to stand with the targeted scholars, not
> with the terrorists. And free speech is important: far from being a
> "Right-wing tactic", it is indispensable for liberty and democracy. I
> hope you all care about those.
>
> Conclusion. Just after the listmaster tried to settle this commotion
> peacefully but in a pro-Patricia sense, she herself badly blew it.
> Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an
> august subject like yoga (which need not be a big deal at her age),
> Patricia Sauthoff has the capacity to learn, like most of us. She has
> just been caught in the act of slander against a fellow list member,
> but she can take it as a learning moment and move on. I believe in
> learning, e.g. in believers outgrowing a silly religious doctrine, and
> I will not make an exception for the deluded followers of the SJW
> doctrine. I just received a crash course in how morbid and hateful it
> can be, and am now eager to set my mind on more positive things.
> Apologies for talking so much about myself, but I was attacked on so
> many points, and since no one here is going to speak up for me, I had
> to do it myself.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 9:44 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right, you
> may enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
> >
> > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
> >
> > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer as
> subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to
> the person who drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
> >
> > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers were cited for
> their anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian
> terrorist Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll
> remember the 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on
> an island by a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's
> manifesto is now canon among the violent far-right as it lays out tactics
> and strategies for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The
> Austrailian-born Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration
> in his own manifesto.
> >
> > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right is its penchant
> for making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be
> connected to the anti-fascist movement. The article "was circulated
> approvingly on white supremacist forum Stormfront the day after its
> publication; a day later, a YouTube user uploaded a video of imagery of
> mass shooters intercut with images of the reporters mentioned by Lenihan
> under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
> >
> > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall.
> I worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:17 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Dominik,
> >>
> >> Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
> >> exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
> >> to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
> >> become so rare that it deserves special mention.
> >>
> >> Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
> >> fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
> >> support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
> >> They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
> >> career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
> >> Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
> >> expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.
> >>
> >> As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
> >> list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
> >> experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
> >> hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
> >> hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
> >> had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
> >> expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
> >> big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
> >> right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
> >> course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
> >> acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
> >> I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
> >> quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
> >> that you'll never get to feel this.
> >>
> >> When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
> >> minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
> >> references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
> >> resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
> >> abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
> >> he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
> >> only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.
> >>
> >> Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
> >> insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
> >> matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
> >> ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
> >> replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
> >> in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
> >> late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
> >> camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
> >> pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
> >> concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
> >> consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
> >> abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
> >> site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
> >> this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
> >> speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
> >> their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
> >> suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
> >> and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
> >> deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
> >> condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
> >> witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
> >> had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
> >> historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
> >> the lid has carefully been kept (except in
> >> http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/).
> >>
> >> Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
> >> emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
> >> partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
> >> (though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
> >> Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
> >> see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates) were
> >> the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
> >> wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
> >> attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
> >> and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
> >> right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.
> >>
> >> But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
> >> episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
> >> toleration in free speech on this forum.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Koenraad Elst
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
> >> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear colleagues,
> >> >
> >> > When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you
> feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support,
> please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very
> good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But
> sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of
> the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on
> this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human
> fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our
> community.  We care about each other and will support each other when
> attacked.
> >> >
> >> > Best wishes,
> >> > Dominik
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
> >> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> >> > Department of History and Classics,
> >> > University of Alberta, Canada.
> >> > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options or unsubscribe)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Patricia Sauthoff
> > Postdoctoral Fellow
> > AyurYog.org
> > Department of History and Classics
> > University of Alberta
> > Edmonton, Canada
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Sun Jun 30 01:18:06 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 19 19:18:06 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CALOY_zFV_ow70-2OMES4f=t_baWpe5qNUzHT9VPyQoCsMC-vHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAr6cH0uD=ctp7wbtghSy=gFEdOJy177vBVTye-VjX=sHQg3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Koenraad,

You seem like a very angry person. I am saddened by that. We should all be
able to live our lives without fear, anger, or hatred.

I think you misunderstand me. I am no victim. I was merely a target, and a
convenient one at that. It is unfortunate that you feel victimized. It is a
liberating feeling to shirk off the bonds of victimhood and live life with
an open and optimistic heart and mind.

I wish you the best, but I am sending all your emails to my spam folder
henceforth.

Patricia

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 6:27 PM Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear listfolk,
>
> About Copernicus, I knew very well that he didn't live to see the
> reaction to his theory, and I had always learned that that was on
> purpose: he knew his theory was unorthodox and risked repression from
> his own employer, the Church. That doesn't make him a bad example of
> the only thing for which I used him as an example, viz. being a
> minority of one and still being right.
>
> Then Patricia's screaming political tirade. It didn't take long for us
> all to receive an example of the "kindness" and "fellow-feeling" that
> Dominik waxed so eloquent about. Those list members who are allergic
> to politics and waiting for an occasion to blame me for the dirtying
> of their list with politics: please note where this injection of
> politics has come from. The whole letter consists in a favourite
> debating tactic among people who don't know a given subject, viz. to
> divert attention away from it, here mainly with the SJW rhetorical
> tactic par excellence: guilt by association.
>
> Note first of all that none of the specifically Indological points I
> made has been addressed. Instead we are treated to a list of SJW
> jargon unrelated to India, much of which was unknown to me and
> certainly also to many other list members. Thus, "gaslighting" seems
> to mean, according to the article she refers to: "disingenuously
> redefining a concept beyond recognition". I have no idea which part of
> my message this could refer to, I certainly have never consciously
> done such a thing. And I know for sure that she has no way of knowing
> that my allegedly doing this was "disingenuous": you may see what
> someone does, but for his motive behind this action, you need either
> his own statement of motive, which in this case I have never given; or
> you have to have telepathic powers. I didn't know we had paranormally
> gifted people on this list (or superstitious people only believing
> that they can read others' minds). Then again, with a teacher of the
> History of Yoga, we should be ready for some siddhis. And come to
> think of it, maybe some other Yoga Sutra virtues too, like
> self-control and friendliness, not quite in evidence here.
>
> It is really rich to be accused of "victimization" by someone who has
> just volunteered a message almost entirely about her own victimization
> at Nalanda. By the way, it was unfair for her to be fired so unkindly,
> but it was first of all a great privilege for such a junior scholar to
> be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious
> international university; I know quite a few Indian whiz kids who have
> been totally excluded from careers in the Humanities because they were
> classified as "right-wing", in India merely a code for "non-suicidally
> Hindu". I don't indulge in victimhood talk, her own SJW crowd is so
> much better at it; but it is simply a verifiable fact that I have been
> excluded or disinvited numerous times. The exclusion that she bitterly
> complains about for having lived through it once, I have experienced
> many times. And that is not a "right-wing tactic", a figment of her
> own conspiratorial worldview, but a naked fact. Most of us here are
> scholars, for whom facts are sacred. Are you really one of us,
> Patricia?
>
> Yes, I have been quoted by Anders Breivik. Well actually, no, I
> haven't. His Manifesto reproduces many articles by other people, and
> in two of those, I am being quoted. This looks like a shrill drama for
> pedestrians who only read headlines, but scholars get to read the
> whole story. I am the only person with the honour of figuring in the
> Manifesto both in a positive and a negative role. Negatively, the
> quoted pseudonymous author Fjordman takes me to task for arguing that
> the Muslim demographic explosion in Europe need not be a cause for
> worry. (Disagree with me, Patricia?) Positively, Breivik builds his
> case against Islam by citing numerous testimonies about difficult
> episodes in Islamic history, and this includes my own paper about the
> Islamic renaming of the Hindu Koh (Hindu mountain) as Hindu Kush
> (Hindu Slaughter). I have since then not been given any reason by
> anyone to change anything in my paper
> (https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/10/meaning-of-hindu-kush.html).
> I stand by that paper, which restates verifiable facts, and these do
> not change just because Breivik joins the many others who accept them.
> Indeed, many unquestioned authorities in the field are quoted by him.
> Briefly, Breivik had enough brains to figure out an issue and select
> the best sources about it (such as Winston Churchill, the crucial
> anti-Nazi), but he was a misguided fanatic, an illuminatus who thought
> he knew it all better than even the political parties that shared his
> concerns, and which he had given up on since for him, only armed
> struggle was the answer. We may compare him to Abimael Guzman, the
> Peruvian philosophy professor who founded the terrorist group Sendero
> Luminoso and killed many more people. My general view on Breivik can
> be read here:
> https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-only-anders-beirvik-had-read.html
> .
>
> About Patricia Geller I don't know much, but I know Robert Spencer
> personally, and he is an impeccable scholar who has beaten his critics
> in debate many times. If any of you thinks you know his subject better
> than he himself, I trust he is ready for an open debate. But what he
> says and how good he says it, is not the point here. Freedom of speech
> is universal, it is not limited to only those you agree with. Well,
> for their free expression, they have been targeted by terrorists.
> Fortunately, they had hired security (which the FBI wasn't ready to
> provide), who succeeded in eliminating the attackers, though one guard
> got "victimized" himself. That was of course done by the terrorists,
> not by Geller & Spencer, who get the blame here. The terrorists, by
> contrast, are shielded here by remaining unmentioned. There was talk
> here about the neologism "Urban Naxal", which connects Left-wing
> intellectuals with the terrorists they defend or make a common
> political cause with. Well, here you get a ready-made example: the
> terrorists try to kill scholars for their criticism of a religion
> (which Karl Marx considered the beginning of all criticism), and a
> Leftist professor seconds them with slander of and a false insinuation
> against the victims. Reread your own words, Patricia: you are so eager
> to rage against anyone you can associate with me that you actually
> attack the victims of a terrorist attack.
>
> No, I do not reduce everything to free speech issues. I have written
> on numerous other topics, and fortunately for me, I don't normally
> busy myself with answering SJW polemics. But here we happen to be
> dealing with real free speech issues, including one that Patricia
> brought up. When scholars, whether we like them or not, are attacked
> by terrorists, it is our duty to stand with the targeted scholars, not
> with the terrorists. And free speech is important: far from being a
> "Right-wing tactic", it is indispensable for liberty and democracy. I
> hope you all care about those.
>
> Conclusion. Just after the listmaster tried to settle this commotion
> peacefully but in a pro-Patricia sense, she herself badly blew it.
> Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an
> august subject like yoga (which need not be a big deal at her age),
> Patricia Sauthoff has the capacity to learn, like most of us. She has
> just been caught in the act of slander against a fellow list member,
> but she can take it as a learning moment and move on. I believe in
> learning, e.g. in believers outgrowing a silly religious doctrine, and
> I will not make an exception for the deluded followers of the SJW
> doctrine. I just received a crash course in how morbid and hateful it
> can be, and am now eager to set my mind on more positive things.
> Apologies for talking so much about myself, but I was attacked on so
> many points, and since no one here is going to speak up for me, I had
> to do it myself.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 9:44 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right, you
> may enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
> >
> > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
> >
> > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer as
> subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to
> the person who drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
> >
> > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers were cited for
> their anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian
> terrorist Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll
> remember the 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on
> an island by a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's
> manifesto is now canon among the violent far-right as it lays out tactics
> and strategies for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The
> Austrailian-born Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration
> in his own manifesto.
> >
> > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right is its penchant
> for making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be
> connected to the anti-fascist movement. The article "was circulated
> approvingly on white supremacist forum Stormfront the day after its
> publication; a day later, a YouTube user uploaded a video of imagery of
> mass shooters intercut with images of the reporters mentioned by Lenihan
> under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
> >
> > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall.
> I worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:17 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Dominik,
> >>
> >> Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
> >> exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
> >> to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
> >> become so rare that it deserves special mention.
> >>
> >> Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
> >> fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
> >> support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
> >> They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
> >> career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
> >> Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
> >> expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.
> >>
> >> As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
> >> list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
> >> experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
> >> hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
> >> hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
> >> had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
> >> expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
> >> big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
> >> right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
> >> course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
> >> acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
> >> I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
> >> quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
> >> that you'll never get to feel this.
> >>
> >> When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
> >> minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
> >> references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
> >> resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
> >> abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
> >> he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
> >> only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.
> >>
> >> Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
> >> insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
> >> matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
> >> ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
> >> replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
> >> in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
> >> late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
> >> camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
> >> pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
> >> concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
> >> consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
> >> abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
> >> site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
> >> this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
> >> speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
> >> their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
> >> suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
> >> and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
> >> deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
> >> condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
> >> witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
> >> had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
> >> historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
> >> the lid has carefully been kept (except in
> >> http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/).
> >>
> >> Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
> >> emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
> >> partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
> >> (though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
> >> Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
> >> see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates) were
> >> the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
> >> wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
> >> attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
> >> and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
> >> right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.
> >>
> >> But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
> >> episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
> >> toleration in free speech on this forum.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Koenraad Elst
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
> >> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear colleagues,
> >> >
> >> > When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you
> feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support,
> please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very
> good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But
> sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of
> the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on
> this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human
> fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our
> community.  We care about each other and will support each other when
> attacked.
> >> >
> >> > Best wishes,
> >> > Dominik
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
> >> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> >> > Department of History and Classics,
> >> > University of Alberta, Canada.
> >> > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options or unsubscribe)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Patricia Sauthoff
> > Postdoctoral Fellow
> > AyurYog.org
> > Department of History and Classics
> > University of Alberta
> > Edmonton, Canada
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada


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From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu  Sun Jun 30 01:42:56 2019
From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 01:42:56 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsAxbnOfq37u9jZSkZodkZsbSVabF5-TymEpA=_pW5nGKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN7PR08MB5506A48865A515A07EC9DAA2E7FE0@BN7PR08MB5506.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

I would like to concur with Antonia, I find Koenraad's postings incredibly condescending ("Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an august subject ..." "such a junior scholar to be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious international university ..." Really?). I don't think the forum should stay away from discussing politically charged issues, but what happened to being courteous?

Aleksandar Uskokov

Lector in Sanskrit

South Asian Studies Council, Yale University

203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu

________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 7:53 PM
To: Koenraad Elst
Cc: Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public

Dear Koenraad,

I usually try to read your emails all the way through, even though their length does not invite that. (Which, by the way, also is a well-known technique: just put something very long and mostly undigested in front of others, so that they have to spend the time and energy to work their way through it and perhaps even feel they need to respond to it all.)

With your last email, I just made it to the words 'Patricia's screaming tirade' to know I didn't have to go on reading.

Dominik, thank you for your email. You are absolutely right that it isn't enough to voice our support for others privately; but we need to do it in public on-list. I would thus hereby like to voice my public support to Patricia and everyone who has spoken up, in detail but never lenghtily, about AAIS.

While I don't think that further discussion of AAIS is *needed* to show the true colours of the organisation, one brief observation on AJIS made by a friend not on this list may still be of interest:

"I note that in the few instances when the terms ?Muslim? and ?Islam? appear on the website or in the journal that they serve merely as markers of difference with ?Hindus? and ?Hinduism,? and ?Islamic civilization? is pointedly juxtaposed with ?Indic civilization"."

Finally, I support any initiatives there may be for amending the guidelines of the Indology list, especially as concerns explicit prohibition of gaslighting and dog-whistling. This list is a valuable (and invaluable!) resource for all of us, and we should not allow it, or our field, to be used by any person or organisation that aims to sow unacademic dissent among countries, religions or individuals.

All the best,
      Antonia

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, 01:28 Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY, <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear listfolk,

About Copernicus, I knew very well that he didn't live to see the
reaction to his theory, and I had always learned that that was on
purpose: he knew his theory was unorthodox and risked repression from
his own employer, the Church. That doesn't make him a bad example of
the only thing for which I used him as an example, viz. being a
minority of one and still being right.

Then Patricia's screaming political tirade. It didn't take long for us
all to receive an example of the "kindness" and "fellow-feeling" that
Dominik waxed so eloquent about. Those list members who are allergic
to politics and waiting for an occasion to blame me for the dirtying
of their list with politics: please note where this injection of
politics has come from. The whole letter consists in a favourite
debating tactic among people who don't know a given subject, viz. to
divert attention away from it, here mainly with the SJW rhetorical
tactic par excellence: guilt by association.

Note first of all that none of the specifically Indological points I
made has been addressed. Instead we are treated to a list of SJW
jargon unrelated to India, much of which was unknown to me and
certainly also to many other list members. Thus, "gaslighting" seems
to mean, according to the article she refers to: "disingenuously
redefining a concept beyond recognition". I have no idea which part of
my message this could refer to, I certainly have never consciously
done such a thing. And I know for sure that she has no way of knowing
that my allegedly doing this was "disingenuous": you may see what
someone does, but for his motive behind this action, you need either
his own statement of motive, which in this case I have never given; or
you have to have telepathic powers. I didn't know we had paranormally
gifted people on this list (or superstitious people only believing
that they can read others' minds). Then again, with a teacher of the
History of Yoga, we should be ready for some siddhis. And come to
think of it, maybe some other Yoga Sutra virtues too, like
self-control and friendliness, not quite in evidence here.

It is really rich to be accused of "victimization" by someone who has
just volunteered a message almost entirely about her own victimization
at Nalanda. By the way, it was unfair for her to be fired so unkindly,
but it was first of all a great privilege for such a junior scholar to
be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious
international university; I know quite a few Indian whiz kids who have
been totally excluded from careers in the Humanities because they were
classified as "right-wing", in India merely a code for "non-suicidally
Hindu". I don't indulge in victimhood talk, her own SJW crowd is so
much better at it; but it is simply a verifiable fact that I have been
excluded or disinvited numerous times. The exclusion that she bitterly
complains about for having lived through it once, I have experienced
many times. And that is not a "right-wing tactic", a figment of her
own conspiratorial worldview, but a naked fact. Most of us here are
scholars, for whom facts are sacred. Are you really one of us,
Patricia?

Yes, I have been quoted by Anders Breivik. Well actually, no, I
haven't. His Manifesto reproduces many articles by other people, and
in two of those, I am being quoted. This looks like a shrill drama for
pedestrians who only read headlines, but scholars get to read the
whole story. I am the only person with the honour of figuring in the
Manifesto both in a positive and a negative role. Negatively, the
quoted pseudonymous author Fjordman takes me to task for arguing that
the Muslim demographic explosion in Europe need not be a cause for
worry. (Disagree with me, Patricia?) Positively, Breivik builds his
case against Islam by citing numerous testimonies about difficult
episodes in Islamic history, and this includes my own paper about the
Islamic renaming of the Hindu Koh (Hindu mountain) as Hindu Kush
(Hindu Slaughter). I have since then not been given any reason by
anyone to change anything in my paper
(https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/10/meaning-of-hindu-kush.html<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fkoenraadelst.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F10%2Fmeaning-of-hindu-kush.html&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230188189&sdata=4C4Mdq7h9d9e1y7ccCZgC5jcB1A8KPSILcCXRiDDXLY%3D&reserved=0>).
I stand by that paper, which restates verifiable facts, and these do
not change just because Breivik joins the many others who accept them.
Indeed, many unquestioned authorities in the field are quoted by him.
Briefly, Breivik had enough brains to figure out an issue and select
the best sources about it (such as Winston Churchill, the crucial
anti-Nazi), but he was a misguided fanatic, an illuminatus who thought
he knew it all better than even the political parties that shared his
concerns, and which he had given up on since for him, only armed
struggle was the answer. We may compare him to Abimael Guzman, the
Peruvian philosophy professor who founded the terrorist group Sendero
Luminoso and killed many more people. My general view on Breivik can
be read here: https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-only-anders-beirvik-had-read.html<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fkoenraadelst.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F07%2Fif-only-anders-beirvik-had-read.html&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230188189&sdata=cnmqJL8K4oKhdH0oWP8xaIZjDSiWYthKWB901t%2BiCwM%3D&reserved=0>.

About Patricia Geller I don't know much, but I know Robert Spencer
personally, and he is an impeccable scholar who has beaten his critics
in debate many times. If any of you thinks you know his subject better
than he himself, I trust he is ready for an open debate. But what he
says and how good he says it, is not the point here. Freedom of speech
is universal, it is not limited to only those you agree with. Well,
for their free expression, they have been targeted by terrorists.
Fortunately, they had hired security (which the FBI wasn't ready to
provide), who succeeded in eliminating the attackers, though one guard
got "victimized" himself. That was of course done by the terrorists,
not by Geller & Spencer, who get the blame here. The terrorists, by
contrast, are shielded here by remaining unmentioned. There was talk
here about the neologism "Urban Naxal", which connects Left-wing
intellectuals with the terrorists they defend or make a common
political cause with. Well, here you get a ready-made example: the
terrorists try to kill scholars for their criticism of a religion
(which Karl Marx considered the beginning of all criticism), and a
Leftist professor seconds them with slander of and a false insinuation
against the victims. Reread your own words, Patricia: you are so eager
to rage against anyone you can associate with me that you actually
attack the victims of a terrorist attack.

No, I do not reduce everything to free speech issues. I have written
on numerous other topics, and fortunately for me, I don't normally
busy myself with answering SJW polemics. But here we happen to be
dealing with real free speech issues, including one that Patricia
brought up. When scholars, whether we like them or not, are attacked
by terrorists, it is our duty to stand with the targeted scholars, not
with the terrorists. And free speech is important: far from being a
"Right-wing tactic", it is indispensable for liberty and democracy. I
hope you all care about those.

Conclusion. Just after the listmaster tried to settle this commotion
peacefully but in a pro-Patricia sense, she herself badly blew it.
Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an
august subject like yoga (which need not be a big deal at her age),
Patricia Sauthoff has the capacity to learn, like most of us. She has
just been caught in the act of slander against a fellow list member,
but she can take it as a learning moment and move on. I believe in
learning, e.g. in believers outgrowing a silly religious doctrine, and
I will not make an exception for the deluded followers of the SJW
doctrine. I just received a crash course in how morbid and hateful it
can be, and am now eager to set my mind on more positive things.
Apologies for talking so much about myself, but I was attacked on so
many points, and since no one here is going to speak up for me, I had
to do it myself.

Best regards,

Dr. Koenraad Elst

On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 9:44 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right, you may enjoy reading this short article http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.law.columbia.edu%2Fpraxis1313%2Fjeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics%2F&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230198181&sdata=%2BcFAFWwSLvR1sERitGhQqQaw9995CmOx8Rf2QpHOERI%3D&reserved=0>, You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting, to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle. Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right anti-Muslim activists. Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security guard was shot at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers were cited for their anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto is now canon among the violent far-right as it lays out tactics and strategies for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right is its penchant for making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online publication ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to the anti-fascist movement. The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of targets, i.e., some of us.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:17 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dominik,
>>
>> Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
>> exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
>> to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
>> become so rare that it deserves special mention.
>>
>> Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
>> fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
>> support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
>> They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
>> career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
>> Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
>> expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.
>>
>> As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
>> list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
>> experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
>> hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
>> hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
>> had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
>> expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
>> big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
>> right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
>> course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
>> acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
>> I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
>> quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
>> that you'll never get to feel this.
>>
>> When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
>> minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
>> references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
>> resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
>> abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
>> he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
>> only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.
>>
>> Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
>> insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
>> matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
>> ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
>> replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
>> in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
>> late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
>> camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
>> pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
>> concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
>> consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
>> abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
>> site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
>> this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
>> speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
>> their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
>> suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
>> and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
>> deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
>> condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
>> witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
>> had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
>> historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
>> the lid has carefully been kept (except in
>> http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiafacts.org%2Fdefinitive-ayodhya-chronicle%2F&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230198181&sdata=ASPXRfMCc55ecwokX%2BulMhUADijPAlGT5KhxU74gHGY%3D&reserved=0>).
>>
>> Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
>> emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
>> partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
>> (though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
>> Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
>> see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F14614579%2FThe_Three_Ayodhya_Debates&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230208174&sdata=T0SDdGVSJULHLi7T94IJDLGQe%2Fn19h800r6prNWhiZ8%3D&reserved=0>) were
>> the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
>> wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
>> attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
>> and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
>> right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.
>>
>> But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
>> episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
>> toleration in free speech on this forum.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Koenraad Elst
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
>> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear colleagues,
>> >
>> > When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our community.  We care about each other and will support each other when attacked.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> > Dominik
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
>> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
>> > Department of History and Classics,
>> > University of Alberta, Canada.
>> > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsas.ualberta.ca&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230208174&sdata=8xy2s4y5TH7oGOAEV%2Bh2RXpDU%2BggWs6cI%2BDkEv0Gmsw%3D&reserved=0>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C3f3a4ed63b9e40fb8df308d6fcf59a01%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C636974529230218170&sdata=QAgG%2F1oarT9ItinnDE9AbI0svEO1A0EaURbMSnibYh0%3D&reserved=0> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
> Patricia Sauthoff
> Postdoctoral Fellow
> AyurYog.org
> Department of History and Classics
> University of Alberta
> Edmonton, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
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_______________________________________________
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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 10:39:48 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 12:39:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
In-Reply-To: <BN7PR08MB5506A48865A515A07EC9DAA2E7FE0@BN7PR08MB5506.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zFsL+7UYjCTXEObRkbieUJrQnfmUPvnq7S5ivbffiD5yg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear listfolk,

According to list rules, "members will be expected to maintain
commonly-accepted standards of decorum in their postings to the group.
Contributions are expected to be polite and well-considered. (?) In
particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language,
and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules."

By that criterion, Patricia's attack on me was a multiple violation of
list rules. It had nothing Indological and was thus completely
off-topic. It was not exactly polite, and it was very much a personal
attack. To use Antonia's words, it aimed "to sow unacademic dissent
among individuals". In her last mail Patricia sounds more
conciliatory, which is a good development and for me a reason to leave
it at that.

But not, it seems, for others. When I read these attacks, I thought:
whatever I write in response, quite a number of list members, whether
they speak up or not, are going to blame *me* for *her* politicization
of their nice list. And any aspect of anything I write will be held
under the magnifying glass by pedants trying to find fault with it.
This has happened in the past, and sure enough, it is happening again,
though so far in low key.

Thus, Antonia here reads these attacks, takes them in stride as if
perfectly normal, then reads my reply, and suddenly, after all this
rough riding, becomes very touchy-feely when reading my first
description of these same attacks as a "screaming tirade". I think
those words are pretty mild compared to what I have been called, and
pretty accurate: a "tirade" means a "serial shooting", and it was
indeed an enumeration of various claims that were each calculated to
damage me. The word "screaming" evokes the mood in which she seems to
have written it. This part is admittedly only intuitive, maybe late at
night my perception was less than perfect, I don't mind dropping that
word. Morning has broken.

Then follows the predictable call for a ban. Apparently in the
Indology Soviet, list rules should be changed so that SJWs are free to
attack dissidents but the latter are prevented from responding. All
this under cover of esoteric jargon like "dog whistle" and
"gaslighting". (Not that these novel concepts couldn't be useful.
Thus, the Indian partial inversion in meaning of "secularism" from its
original European meaning would be a fine example of "gaslighting".)

Note also a very morbid streak in the SJW worldview: its
conspiratorial thinking. Thus, "there is nothing unintentional about
this and it is a performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It
is meant to bait those who do not agree into 'debate'" etc. I know
SJWs don't like debate, for they would lose on any subject that
matters here, and also on principle: in their totalitarian utopia,
there is simply no room for debate. There should be diversity in skin
colour, sexual orientation etc., but not in opinion. That's why they
always come in the news when, in Oxford or so, they have managed to
prevent or shut down another debate.

And then these gifted mind-readers claim to know what unstated purpose
is actually "meant" when I simply answer an e-mail. No innocence
anymore, everything is part of some political strategy. Those who try
their hand at pop-psychology against me ("full of anger") should
tolerate that I psycho-analyze that trait as a *projection* of their
own stand in the world. And now we get to read that the length of my
mails is a "technique" to suck people's energy. It is sick to
postulate an ulterior intention behind my response e-mail's length,
which was only determined by the number of allegations that I had to
answer. Nevertheless, I'll stop here.

But not without affirming that at my age, I have a right to talk
"condescendingly" to trespassing youngsters. I can only hope they
learn from it, that's what we're here for.

Kind regards,


K. Elst

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 3:42 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar
<aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote:
>
> I would like to concur with Antonia, I find Koenraad's postings incredibly condescending ("Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an august subject ..." "such a junior scholar to be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious international university ..." Really?). I don't think the forum should stay away from discussing politically charged issues, but what happened to being courteous?
>
> Aleksandar Uskokov
>
> Lector in Sanskrit
>
> South Asian Studies Council, Yale University
>
> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu
>
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 7:53 PM
> To: Koenraad Elst
> Cc: Indology
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
>
> Dear Koenraad,
>
> I usually try to read your emails all the way through, even though their length does not invite that. (Which, by the way, also is a well-known technique: just put something very long and mostly undigested in front of others, so that they have to spend the time and energy to work their way through it and perhaps even feel they need to respond to it all.)
>
> With your last email, I just made it to the words 'Patricia's screaming tirade' to know I didn't have to go on reading.
>
> Dominik, thank you for your email. You are absolutely right that it isn't enough to voice our support for others privately; but we need to do it in public on-list. I would thus hereby like to voice my public support to Patricia and everyone who has spoken up, in detail but never lenghtily, about AAIS.
>
> While I don't think that further discussion of AAIS is *needed* to show the true colours of the organisation, one brief observation on AJIS made by a friend not on this list may still be of interest:
>
> "I note that in the few instances when the terms ?Muslim? and ?Islam? appear on the website or in the journal that they serve merely as markers of difference with ?Hindus? and ?Hinduism,? and ?Islamic civilization? is pointedly juxtaposed with ?Indic civilization"."
>
> Finally, I support any initiatives there may be for amending the guidelines of the Indology list, especially as concerns explicit prohibition of gaslighting and dog-whistling. This list is a valuable (and invaluable!) resource for all of us, and we should not allow it, or our field, to be used by any person or organisation that aims to sow unacademic dissent among countries, religions or individuals.
>
> All the best,
>       Antonia
>
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, 01:28 Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY, <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear listfolk,
>
> About Copernicus, I knew very well that he didn't live to see the
> reaction to his theory, and I had always learned that that was on
> purpose: he knew his theory was unorthodox and risked repression from
> his own employer, the Church. That doesn't make him a bad example of
> the only thing for which I used him as an example, viz. being a
> minority of one and still being right.
>
> Then Patricia's screaming political tirade. It didn't take long for us
> all to receive an example of the "kindness" and "fellow-feeling" that
> Dominik waxed so eloquent about. Those list members who are allergic
> to politics and waiting for an occasion to blame me for the dirtying
> of their list with politics: please note where this injection of
> politics has come from. The whole letter consists in a favourite
> debating tactic among people who don't know a given subject, viz. to
> divert attention away from it, here mainly with the SJW rhetorical
> tactic par excellence: guilt by association.
>
> Note first of all that none of the specifically Indological points I
> made has been addressed. Instead we are treated to a list of SJW
> jargon unrelated to India, much of which was unknown to me and
> certainly also to many other list members. Thus, "gaslighting" seems
> to mean, according to the article she refers to: "disingenuously
> redefining a concept beyond recognition". I have no idea which part of
> my message this could refer to, I certainly have never consciously
> done such a thing. And I know for sure that she has no way of knowing
> that my allegedly doing this was "disingenuous": you may see what
> someone does, but for his motive behind this action, you need either
> his own statement of motive, which in this case I have never given; or
> you have to have telepathic powers. I didn't know we had paranormally
> gifted people on this list (or superstitious people only believing
> that they can read others' minds). Then again, with a teacher of the
> History of Yoga, we should be ready for some siddhis. And come to
> think of it, maybe some other Yoga Sutra virtues too, like
> self-control and friendliness, not quite in evidence here.
>
> It is really rich to be accused of "victimization" by someone who has
> just volunteered a message almost entirely about her own victimization
> at Nalanda. By the way, it was unfair for her to be fired so unkindly,
> but it was first of all a great privilege for such a junior scholar to
> be nominated to this teaching post as a meant-to-be-prestigious
> international university; I know quite a few Indian whiz kids who have
> been totally excluded from careers in the Humanities because they were
> classified as "right-wing", in India merely a code for "non-suicidally
> Hindu". I don't indulge in victimhood talk, her own SJW crowd is so
> much better at it; but it is simply a verifiable fact that I have been
> excluded or disinvited numerous times. The exclusion that she bitterly
> complains about for having lived through it once, I have experienced
> many times. And that is not a "right-wing tactic", a figment of her
> own conspiratorial worldview, but a naked fact. Most of us here are
> scholars, for whom facts are sacred. Are you really one of us,
> Patricia?
>
> Yes, I have been quoted by Anders Breivik. Well actually, no, I
> haven't. His Manifesto reproduces many articles by other people, and
> in two of those, I am being quoted. This looks like a shrill drama for
> pedestrians who only read headlines, but scholars get to read the
> whole story. I am the only person with the honour of figuring in the
> Manifesto both in a positive and a negative role. Negatively, the
> quoted pseudonymous author Fjordman takes me to task for arguing that
> the Muslim demographic explosion in Europe need not be a cause for
> worry. (Disagree with me, Patricia?) Positively, Breivik builds his
> case against Islam by citing numerous testimonies about difficult
> episodes in Islamic history, and this includes my own paper about the
> Islamic renaming of the Hindu Koh (Hindu mountain) as Hindu Kush
> (Hindu Slaughter). I have since then not been given any reason by
> anyone to change anything in my paper
> (https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/10/meaning-of-hindu-kush.html).
> I stand by that paper, which restates verifiable facts, and these do
> not change just because Breivik joins the many others who accept them.
> Indeed, many unquestioned authorities in the field are quoted by him.
> Briefly, Breivik had enough brains to figure out an issue and select
> the best sources about it (such as Winston Churchill, the crucial
> anti-Nazi), but he was a misguided fanatic, an illuminatus who thought
> he knew it all better than even the political parties that shared his
> concerns, and which he had given up on since for him, only armed
> struggle was the answer. We may compare him to Abimael Guzman, the
> Peruvian philosophy professor who founded the terrorist group Sendero
> Luminoso and killed many more people. My general view on Breivik can
> be read here: https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2011/07/if-only-anders-beirvik-had-read.html.
>
> About Patricia Geller I don't know much, but I know Robert Spencer
> personally, and he is an impeccable scholar who has beaten his critics
> in debate many times. If any of you thinks you know his subject better
> than he himself, I trust he is ready for an open debate. But what he
> says and how good he says it, is not the point here. Freedom of speech
> is universal, it is not limited to only those you agree with. Well,
> for their free expression, they have been targeted by terrorists.
> Fortunately, they had hired security (which the FBI wasn't ready to
> provide), who succeeded in eliminating the attackers, though one guard
> got "victimized" himself. That was of course done by the terrorists,
> not by Geller & Spencer, who get the blame here. The terrorists, by
> contrast, are shielded here by remaining unmentioned. There was talk
> here about the neologism "Urban Naxal", which connects Left-wing
> intellectuals with the terrorists they defend or make a common
> political cause with. Well, here you get a ready-made example: the
> terrorists try to kill scholars for their criticism of a religion
> (which Karl Marx considered the beginning of all criticism), and a
> Leftist professor seconds them with slander of and a false insinuation
> against the victims. Reread your own words, Patricia: you are so eager
> to rage against anyone you can associate with me that you actually
> attack the victims of a terrorist attack.
>
> No, I do not reduce everything to free speech issues. I have written
> on numerous other topics, and fortunately for me, I don't normally
> busy myself with answering SJW polemics. But here we happen to be
> dealing with real free speech issues, including one that Patricia
> brought up. When scholars, whether we like them or not, are attacked
> by terrorists, it is our duty to stand with the targeted scholars, not
> with the terrorists. And free speech is important: far from being a
> "Right-wing tactic", it is indispensable for liberty and democracy. I
> hope you all care about those.
>
> Conclusion. Just after the listmaster tried to settle this commotion
> peacefully but in a pro-Patricia sense, she herself badly blew it.
> Though visibly lacking in the maturity needed for teaching on an
> august subject like yoga (which need not be a big deal at her age),
> Patricia Sauthoff has the capacity to learn, like most of us. She has
> just been caught in the act of slander against a fellow list member,
> but she can take it as a learning moment and move on. I believe in
> learning, e.g. in believers outgrowing a silly religious doctrine, and
> I will not make an exception for the deluded followers of the SJW
> doctrine. I just received a crash course in how morbid and hateful it
> can be, and am now eager to set my mind on more positive things.
> Apologies for talking so much about myself, but I was attacked on so
> many points, and since no one here is going to speak up for me, I had
> to do it myself.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 9:44 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right, you may enjoy reading this short article http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/, You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting, to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
> >
> > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
> >
> > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle. Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right anti-Muslim activists. Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security guard was shot at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
> >
> > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers were cited for their anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto is now canon among the violent far-right as it lays out tactics and strategies for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own manifesto.
> >
> > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right is its penchant for making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online publication ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to the anti-fascist movement. The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
> >
> > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of targets, i.e., some of us.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:17 AM Koenraad Elst via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Dominik,
> >>
> >> Thanks for being so openly partisan and yet not even threatening to
> >> exclude me, let alone simply censor me. In a better world this ought
> >> to be a matter of course rather than a reason for thanks, but is has
> >> become so rare that it deserves special mention.
> >>
> >> Your point is well taken: make expressions of kindness, human
> >> fellow-feeling etc. public. Only, I have received several messages of
> >> support off-list from members who insist on keeping them off-list.
> >> They claim to have reasons to believe that their social standing and
> >> career chances would suffer otherwise. No use telling them that Good
> >> Guys would never countenance such an intolerant scenario. Public
> >> expressions of support must be an SJW privilege.
> >>
> >> As for your notion of "majority", in India so problematic but on this
> >> list a source of warm feelings of kindness etc., I dare say from
> >> experience that it is not very consequential. In 1990 when I was
> >> hatefully attacked by big experts at the Ramayana Conference in my
> >> hometown Leuven, only for my politely formulated viewpoint that there
> >> had indeed been a temple at the contentious site in Ayodhya, those who
> >> expressed sympathy with me (in private) were in a minority. Yet, the
> >> big experts were resoundingly wrong while I went on to being proven
> >> right: as the 2003 excavations superfluously proved once more, of
> >> course there had been a temple there. And when the UP High Court
> >> acknowledged as much in autumn 2010, at the next AAA annual conference
> >> I was actually congratulated by two American professors. That felt
> >> quite good. The price for staying within the safe and warm majority is
> >> that you'll never get to feel this.
> >>
> >> When Copernicus launched the heliocentric worldview, he was in a
> >> minority of one. Overnight, his theory made all the works containing
> >> references to the geocentric framework obsolete, and their authors
> >> resented him. The support he enjoyed was sparse, the opposition
> >> abundant; but none of that mattered to the next generation, that found
> >> he had been right. And today, the "majority" opinion of those days is
> >> only a historical curiosity. So, enjoy your majority while it lasts.
> >>
> >> Now I don't want to compare myself to Copernicus, if only because his
> >> insight was highly original whereas I only restated what had been a
> >> matter of consensus until a few years earlier. As was clear in a trial
> >> ca. 1885, all parties concerned agreed that a temple had forcibly been
> >> replaced with a mosque, though the local Muslims and the British judge
> >> in his verdict thought that no remedy for that should be tried at this
> >> late hour.  That could have remained the position of the anti-temple
> >> camp. Alas, the "eminent historians" in the late 1980s started
> >> pleading that the temple had never existed and was only a "Hindutva
> >> concoction". They never gave evidence for this break with the
> >> consensus, but the Congress politicians felt intimidated enough to
> >> abandon their earlier attempts for a peaceful settlement giving the
> >> site to the Hindus, leaving the issue to the BJP. More important for
> >> this forum, and far stranger, is that most Western experts started
> >> speaking out against the existence of the temple at the mere say-so of
> >> their "eminent" colleagues. A Dutch scholar who had in tempore non
> >> suspecto adduced more indications for the temple in his own research,
> >> and got retro-actively attacked for this (what had suddenly become a)
> >> deviation from the party-line, even hurried to fall in line and
> >> condemn the temple tradition. But years later, when called to the
> >> witness stand at the UP High Court to present the fabled evidence that
> >> had somehow swayed politicians and Indologists alike, the eminent
> >> historians imploded one after another, an embarrassing coda on which
> >> the lid has carefully been kept (except in
> >> http://indiafacts.org/definitive-ayodhya-chronicle/).
> >>
> >> Even more strangely, many supposedly dispassionate scholars got quite
> >> emotionally involved in this borrowed anti-temple position. This
> >> partly followed from their prior assumption that the pro-temple party
> >> (though containing Congress politicians like Gulzarilal Nanda, Buta
> >> Singh and PM Rajiv Gandhi, who merely wanted a reasonable solution,
> >> see https://www.academia.edu/14614579/The_Three_Ayodhya_Debates) were
> >> the bad guys, and how could these ever be right? There is nothing
> >> wrong with hate if it is against the bad guys, right? So, many of the
> >> attacks I underwent in those days had a particularly self-righteous
> >> and mean quality. Better to be wrong with the eminences than to be
> >> right with the allegedly Hindutva crowd.
> >>
> >> But that was then and this is now. I trust we have learned from
> >> episodes like that one. Hence, no doubt, the practice of real
> >> toleration in free speech on this forum.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Koenraad Elst
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 4:58 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
> >> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear colleagues,
> >> >
> >> > When these discussions arise that have a political dimension, and you feel moved to write to one of the good guys with a message of support, please think about sending it publicly.  Messages of support are a very good thing, public or private.  Anything is better than nothing.  But sending such a message publicly can greatly magnify the effectiveness of the support for the individual.  It also sends a message to everyone, on this list and beyond, that there is a ground-swell of kindness, of human fellow-feeling, positivity and watchfulness amongst the majority of our community.  We care about each other and will support each other when attacked.
> >> >
> >> > Best wishes,
> >> > Dominik
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk,
> >> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> >> > Department of History and Classics,
> >> > University of Alberta, Canada.
> >> > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Patricia Sauthoff
> > Postdoctoral Fellow
> > AyurYog.org
> > Department of History and Classics
> > University of Alberta
> > Edmonton, Canada
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Jun 30 10:50:47 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 10:50:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology discussions
Message-ID: <DM5PR11MB178722590BB27EBEB351A285A1FE0@DM5PR11MB1787.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear all,


Without reference to the content of anyone's posts - political, a-politcal, civil, uncivil, left, right or out of the ballpark -- I do wish that the list's rules might include an anti-logorrhea clause. It may seem a self-contradiction to repeat it, but I will: alam ativistareNa.


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun 30 13:34:29 2019
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 06:34:29 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeon+-nMrwEUtKjmf4wBYPG7H0biCxfSu5aQBwHP+RNSw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

???????? ??????? ????? ???? ???: ?
???????? ?????? ????? ??????????? ????? ???????

With the fame of Krishna, mother Yashoda became the jewel of motherhood,
whose motherly love is extolled even today in the world.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From christian.haskett at centre.edu  Sun Jun 30 14:35:03 2019
From: christian.haskett at centre.edu (Christian P. Haskett)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 14:35:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification of list etiquette
Message-ID: <24BB1367-FDC7-4CAE-9317-811E79B4E22D@centre.edu>

Recently, a member posted that he has:



?a right to talk
"condescendingly" to trespassing youngsters.?

Holding in abeyance the questions of ?trespass? and ?youngsters,? and entirely bracketing any questions about the rectitude of various positions in the debate, does the list and its committee affirm this right?

Does the list committee affirm the right of this or any other scholar to conduct him or herself in such fashion, including belittling name-calling, withering sarcasm, and plainly disparaging ad hominem attacks?and a concomitant obligation on the part of myself and other youngsters to endure such treatment?by  allowing him or her continued membership without censure?

I don't believe such a right exists, or should, but it?s not my place to decide.  On the other hand, rights and obligations are contingent and limited to the domains in which they are granted, and so I?ll quietly show myself out if that?s the way things are going to be.  That?s really not meant as a threat. I am an utterly inconsequential and passive participant in Indology.  However, I suspect that others feel the same way, and are not so free as I am to say so, and that perhaps the management of Indology would benefit from knowing that.

best
cpbh
--
Chris Haskett
Assistant Professor, Religion
Centre College

?????????????????????? ?????????????????
--????????? ????
Because they are dreamlike, the arising and ceasing of things are inconceivable.  Sphu??rtha 4.60





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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Sun Jun 30 14:51:44 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 15:51:44 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification of list etiquette
In-Reply-To: <24BB1367-FDC7-4CAE-9317-811E79B4E22D@centre.edu>
Message-ID: <188F7CE6-DD1F-4D27-B460-D0170CFF1B3D@btinternet.com>

Dear Chris

Certainly not. We should behave on a list like this as (I hope) we would when face to face with our colleagues in a conference room. Anyone indulging in name-calling or withering sarcasm, or trying to label colleagues as ?trespassing youngsters?, has already lost whatever argument they had. In my view we are all equal members on here. The fact that some of us have been knocking around longer than others does not necessarily make us wiser, as the Dhammapada points out.

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK



> On 30 Jun 2019, at 15:35, Christian P. Haskett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Recently, a member posted that he has: 
>  
> ?a right to talk
> "condescendingly" to trespassing youngsters.?
>  
> Holding in abeyance the questions of ?trespass? and ?youngsters,? and entirely bracketing any questions about the rectitude of various positions in the debate, does the list and its committee affirm this right?
>  
> Does the list committee affirm the right of this or any other scholar to conduct him or herself in such fashion, including belittling name-calling, withering sarcasm, and plainly disparaging ad hominem attacks?and a concomitant obligation on the part of myself and other youngsters to endure such treatment?by  allowing him or her continued membership without censure?
>  
> I don't believe such a right exists, or should, but it?s not my place to decide.  On the other hand, rights and obligations are contingent and limited to the domains in which they are granted, and so I?ll quietly show myself out if that?s the way things are going to be.  That?s really not meant as a threat. I am an utterly inconsequential and passive participant in Indology.  However, I suspect that others feel the same way, and are not so free as I am to say so, and that perhaps the management of Indology would benefit from knowing that.
>  
> best
> cpbh
> --
> Chris Haskett
> Assistant Professor, Religion
> Centre College
>  
> ?????????????????????? ?????????????????
> --????????? ????
> Because they are dreamlike, the arising and ceasing of things are inconceivable.  Sphu??rtha 4.60
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 15:50:15 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 10:50:15 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification of list etiquette
In-Reply-To: <188F7CE6-DD1F-4D27-B460-D0170CFF1B3D@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zHwOuSmO7FLsQwVKnkXa61zAQAms8NxtaRKp59uo9dSqg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear listfolk,

Oh well. The coda about "condescending" in my last mail was not too
serious, as the preceding sentence ought to make clear. But I guess it was
no time for jest given the debating context and the sizable amounts of
hostility. Yes, hostility, for calling it "kindness" or "human
fellow-feeling" would now count as unacceptable satire. OK, point taken.

I should have known, for earlier in the mail I mentioned my own prediction,
based on past experiences, that attacks on me typically start a pattern
where they get completely ignored and accepted, even explicitly supported,
though obviously in violation of list rules. They are not at all weighed by
the criterion whether they are acceptable in a conference hall, face to
face; whereas anything I then say in defence is put under the microscope to
find some pretext for bending or changing list rules to oust or at any rate
silence me. And that is exactly what is playing out now.

When signing that petition in favour of freedom of speech, back in Z?rich
in 2014, then particularly for Wendy Doniger, I couldn't help thinking:
many of these signatories are only in favour of free speech in the same way
as Hitler and Stalin were, viz. in favour of free speech for their own, and
to hell with it for the Other. I would very much like to be proven wrong
about that.



Best regards,


Dr. Koenraad Elst



On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, 09:52 Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Chris
>
> Certainly not. We should behave on a list like this as (I hope) we would
> when face to face with our colleagues in a conference room. Anyone
> indulging in name-calling or withering sarcasm, or trying to label
> colleagues as ?trespassing youngsters?, has already lost whatever argument
> they had. In my view we are all equal members on here. The fact that some
> of us have been knocking around longer than others does not necessarily
> make us wiser, as the Dhammapada points out.
>
> Valerie J Roebuck
> Manchester, UK
>
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2019, at 15:35, Christian P. Haskett via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Recently, a member posted that he has:
>
>
>
> ?a right to talk
>
> "condescendingly" to trespassing youngsters.?
>
> Holding in abeyance the questions of ?trespass? and ?youngsters,? and
> entirely bracketing any questions about the rectitude of various positions
> in the debate, does the list and its committee affirm this right?
>
> Does the list committee affirm the right of this or any other scholar to
> conduct him or herself in such fashion, including belittling name-calling,
> withering sarcasm, and plainly disparaging ad hominem attacks?and a
> concomitant obligation on the part of myself and other youngsters to endure
> such treatment?by  allowing him or her continued membership without censure?
>
> I don't believe such a right exists, or should, but it?s not my place to
> decide.  On the other hand, rights and obligations are contingent and
> limited to the domains in which they are granted, and so I?ll quietly show
> myself out if that?s the way things are going to be.  That?s really not
> meant as a threat. I am an utterly inconsequential and passive participant
> in Indology.  However, I suspect that others feel the same way, and are not
> so free as I am to say so, and that perhaps the management of Indology
> would benefit from knowing that.
>
> best
> cpbh
> --
> Chris Haskett
> Assistant Professor, Religion
> Centre College
>
> ?????????????????????? ?????????????????
> --????????? ????
> Because they are dreamlike, the arising and ceasing of things are
> inconceivable.  Sphu??rtha 4.60
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Jun 30 15:59:37 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 17:59:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS - in reaction to
Message-ID: <CALNcvFurt+4BURs6cn5ASFh+fBKvTzKDT36yYkRu0mKG9UHdmw@mail.gmail.com>

Giovanni Verardi's 2018 "THE GODS AND THE HERETICS. Crisis and ruin of
Indian Buddhism" --- ?

Critical reactions/opinions expressed on the AAIS discussion fora?  Are
there any?

Regards,

Artur Karp, Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)

Department of South Asian Studies (Faculty of Oriental Studies, University
of Warsaw)


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From Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr  Sun Jun 30 16:17:01 2019
From: Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr (KORN Agnes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 16:17:01 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification of list etiquette
In-Reply-To: <188F7CE6-DD1F-4D27-B460-D0170CFF1B3D@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B8464E111F@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local>

Couldn?t agree more.

Best,
Agnes Korn


From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Valerie Roebuck via INDOLOGY
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:52 PM
To: Christian P. Haskett
Cc: indology List List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Clarification of list etiquette

Dear Chris

Certainly not. We should behave on a list like this as (I hope) we would when face to face with our colleagues in a conference room. Anyone indulging in name-calling or withering sarcasm, or trying to label colleagues as ?trespassing youngsters?, has already lost whatever argument they had. In my view we are all equal members on here. The fact that some of us have been knocking around longer than others does not necessarily make us wiser, as the Dhammapada points out.

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK


On 30 Jun 2019, at 15:35, Christian P. Haskett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:


Recently, a member posted that he has:



?a right to talk
"condescendingly" to trespassing youngsters.?

Holding in abeyance the questions of ?trespass? and ?youngsters,? and entirely bracketing any questions about the rectitude of various positions in the debate, does the list and its committee affirm this right?

Does the list committee affirm the right of this or any other scholar to conduct him or herself in such fashion, including belittling name-calling, withering sarcasm, and plainly disparaging ad hominem attacks?and a concomitant obligation on the part of myself and other youngsters to endure such treatment?by  allowing him or her continued membership without censure?

I don't believe such a right exists, or should, but it?s not my place to decide.  On the other hand, rights and obligations are contingent and limited to the domains in which they are granted, and so I?ll quietly show myself out if that?s the way things are going to be.  That?s really not meant as a threat. I am an utterly inconsequential and passive participant in Indology.  However, I suspect that others feel the same way, and are not so free as I am to say so, and that perhaps the management of Indology would benefit from knowing that.

best
cpbh
--
Chris Haskett
Assistant Professor, Religion
Centre College

?????????????????????? ?????????????????
--????????? ????
Because they are dreamlike, the arising and ceasing of things are inconceivable.  Sphu??rtha 4.60



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Sun Jun 30 16:26:35 2019
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 18:26:35 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1561910402.13187.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <d290c870-f5c0-eb2e-df90-ac0c3854d905@wanadoo.fr>


Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit?:
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
> From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca>
> To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,

Godwin1


>   you may
> enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
> and Robert Spencer
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
> as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right

Godwin2


> anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
> at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
> drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers

Godwin3


>   were cited for their
> anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
> Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
> 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
> a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
> is
> now canon among the violent far-right

Godwin4


> as it lays out tactics and strategies
> for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
> Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
> manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right

Godwin5


>   is its penchant for
> making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication
> <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
> ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
> the anti-fascist movement
> <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
> The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
> Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
> uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
> reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
> worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.

yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather 
create their own list somewhere else.








From jemhouben at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 17:01:23 2019
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 19:01:23 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
In-Reply-To: <D8347818-C9BF-44B1-91CF-A5590FC045F7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAaMuRM37cPmE4b=BVjoOhDi82KUeR4-UNppezhsSAkOg@mail.gmail.com>

Although I have no intention to attend it: thanks for sending us this
timely information that it is taking place and an open call for papers.
I am also happy to see critical remarks and *brief* discussions on possible
problems in the organization and motivation of this and other indological
events, but hope that this List will remain a place where scholars,
regardless of their political, philosophical, ethical ... orientation, will
continue to feel welcome to announce their conferences and "conferences".
Best regards,
Jan Houben

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 04:00, Lavanya Vemsani via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hello All,
> Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us for
> the First Annual Conference.
> Please circulate the CFP widely.
> Thank you.
> Lavanya
>
>
> Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of
>
> American Academy of Indic Studies
>
>
> The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly,
> non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and
> students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to
> promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at
> www.AAIndicStudies.org <http://www.aaindicstudies.org>
>
> For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly
> presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We
> invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit
> their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic
> wisdom and traditions.
>
> The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the
> ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at
> large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and
> investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards
> postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal
> obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under
> consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal
> arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over
> the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process
> of postcolonialism.
>
> The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th
>
> Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020
>
> Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with https://www.naaas.org
>
> Conference Proceedings: To be announced.
>
> *Lavanya Vemsani*
> Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
> Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
> Shawnee State University
> President, *Ohio Academy of History *
> Co-founder, *American Academy of Indic Studies *
> Editor-in-Chief
> *American Journal of Indic Studies*
> Managing Editor
> *International Journal of Indic Religions *
> *Associate Editor *
> *-Canadian Journal of History *
> *-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs*
> http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 17:13:38 2019
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 17:13:38 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <d290c870-f5c0-eb2e-df90-ac0c3854d905@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <1911746701.606274.1561914818658@mail.yahoo.com>

 Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?
Best,
Dean

    On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
 
 
Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit?:
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
> From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca>
> To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
> Message-ID:
> ??? <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,

Godwin1


>? you may
> enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
> and Robert Spencer
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
> as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right

Godwin2


> anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
> at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
> drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers

Godwin3


>? were cited for their
> anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
> Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
> 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
> a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
> is
> now canon among the violent far-right

Godwin4


> as it lays out tactics and strategies
> for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
> Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
> manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right

Godwin5


>? is its penchant for
> making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication
> <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
> ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
> the anti-fascist movement
> <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
> The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
> Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
> uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
> reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
> worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.

yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather 
create their own list somewhere else.




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
  


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Sun Jun 30 17:25:54 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 11:25:54 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <1911746701.606274.1561914818658@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAr6cGOHBcyHF4Sbu12o1qOdS+rMVGtrCBGR6YQPVrrghUWcA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dean,

It's a reference to Godwin's law
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>, "if an online discussion
(regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone
will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <
eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>
>
> Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit :
> > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
> > From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca>
> > To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
> > Message-ID:
> >     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,
>
> Godwin1
>
>
> >  you may
> > enjoy reading this short article
> >
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/
> ,
> > You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and
> gaslighting,
> > to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
> >
> > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> > performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait
> those
> > who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> > against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
> >
> > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
> > <
> https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller
> >
> > and Robert Spencer
> > <
> https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer
> >
> > as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog
> whistle.
> > Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right
>
> Godwin2
>
>
> > anti-Muslim activists.
> > Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> > guard was shot
> > <
> https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html
> >
> > at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
> > drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
> >
> > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers
>
> Godwin3
>
>
> >  were cited for their
> > anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
> > Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
> > 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island
> by
> > a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
> > <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence
> >
> > is
> > now canon among the violent far-right
>
> Godwin4
>
>
> > as it lays out tactics and strategies
> > for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
> > Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
> > manifesto.
> >
> > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right
>
> Godwin5
>
>
> >  is its penchant for
> > making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> > publication
> > <
> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917
> >
> > ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected
> to
> > the anti-fascist movement
> > <
> https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php
> >.
> > The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
> > Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
> > uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
> > reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
> >
> > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall.
> I
> > worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> > targets, i.e., some of us.
>
> yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather
> create their own list somewhere else.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Sun Jun 30 17:29:06 2019
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 19:29:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <CAPAr6cGOHBcyHF4Sbu12o1qOdS+rMVGtrCBGR6YQPVrrghUWcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f31f8c2c-e75d-286a-677a-29aad3636227@wanadoo.fr>

yes, precisely so

IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like "far-right" or 
"racist" and non-authorized insults like "asshole", "bastard", etc.

The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the other 
set is usually not accepted.

Best regards

A.F


Le 30/06/2019 ? 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a ?crit?:
> Dear Dean,
>
> It's a reference to Godwin's law 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>, "if an online 
> discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner 
> or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or 
> his deeds".
>
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson 
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com <mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>     Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?
>
>     Best,
>
>     Dean
>
>     On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via
>     INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit?:
>     > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
>     > From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca
>     <mailto:sauthoff at ualberta.ca>>
>     > To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>     > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
>     > Message-ID:
>     > ???
>     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com
>     <mailto:CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>>
>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>     >
>     > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,
>
>     Godwin1
>
>
>     >? you may
>     > enjoy reading this short article
>     >
>     http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
>     > You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and
>     gaslighting,
>     > to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>     >
>     > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and
>     it is a
>     > performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to
>     bait those
>     > who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their
>     words around
>     > against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>     >
>     > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
>     >
>     <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
>     > and Robert Spencer
>     >
>     <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
>     > as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a
>     dog whistle.
>     > Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right
>
>     Godwin2
>
>
>     > anti-Muslim activists.
>     > Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A
>     security
>     > guard was shot
>     >
>     <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
>     > at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the
>     person who
>     > drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>     >
>     > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers
>
>     Godwin3
>
>
>     >? were cited for their
>     > anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian
>     terrorist
>     > Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll
>     remember the
>     > 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on
>     an island by
>     > a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
>     >
>     <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
>     > is
>     > now canon among the violent far-right
>
>     Godwin4
>
>
>     > as it lays out tactics and strategies
>     > for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
>     > Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
>     > manifesto.
>     >
>     > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right
>
>     Godwin5
>
>
>     >? is its penchant for
>     > making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an
>     online
>     > publication
>     >
>     <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
>     > ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be
>     connected to
>     > the anti-fascist movement
>     >
>     <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
>     > The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
>     > Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube
>     user
>     > uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with
>     images of the
>     > reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the
>     Media.?"
>     >
>     > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words
>     afterall. I
>     > worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own
>     list of
>     > targets, i.e., some of us.
>
>     yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should
>     rather
>     create their own list somewhere else.
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> -- 
> Patricia Sauthoff
> Postdoctoral Fellow
> AyurYog.org <http://AyurYog.org>
> Department of History and Classics
> University of Alberta
> Edmonton, Canada


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From hhhock at illinois.edu  Sun Jun 30 17:36:43 2019
From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 17:36:43 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <CAPAr6cGOHBcyHF4Sbu12o1qOdS+rMVGtrCBGR6YQPVrrghUWcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CCA2101-31DE-4A93-B230-781C90DC6411@illinois.edu>

The wiki article is quite informative. Remarkably, Godwin apparently does not oppose calling racists what they are.

Thanks for the reference, Patricia.

HHH


On 30 Jun2019, at 12:25, Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Dean,

It's a reference to Godwin's law<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>, "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?

Best,

Dean

On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
> From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca<mailto:sauthoff at ualberta.ca>>
> To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
> Message-ID:
>     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,

Godwin1


>  you may
> enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
> and Robert Spencer
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
> as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right

Godwin2


> anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
> at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
> drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers

Godwin3


>  were cited for their
> anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
> Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
> 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
> a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
> is
> now canon among the violent far-right

Godwin4


> as it lays out tactics and strategies
> for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
> Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
> manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right

Godwin5


>  is its penchant for
> making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication
> <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
> ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
> the anti-fascist movement
> <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
> The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
> Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
> uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
> reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
> worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.

yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather
create their own list somewhere else.




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org<http://ayuryog.org/>
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 17:43:50 2019
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 17:43:50 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <f31f8c2c-e75d-286a-677a-29aad3636227@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <1254288718.619052.1561916630747@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks all.
Dean

    On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 10:59:12 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr> wrote:  
 
  
yes, precisely so
 
IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like "far-right" or "racist" and non-authorized insults like "asshole", "bastard", etc.
 
The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the other set is usually not accepted.
 
 
Best regards
 
A.F
 
 

 
 Le 30/06/2019 ? 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a ?crit?:
  
 
Dear Dean, 
  It's a reference to Godwin's law, "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".  
  On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:
  
   Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived? 
  Best, 
  Dean
  
      On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
  
   
  Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit?:
  > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
  > From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca>
  > To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
  > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
  > Message-ID:
  > ??? <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
  >
  > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,
  
  Godwin1
  
  
  >? you may
  > enjoy reading this short article
  > http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
  > You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
  > to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
  >
  > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
  > performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
  > who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
  > against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
  >
  > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
  > <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
  > and Robert Spencer
  > <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
  > as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
  > Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right
  
  Godwin2
  
  
  > anti-Muslim activists.
  > Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
  > guard was shot
  > <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
  > at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
  > drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
  >
  > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers
  
  Godwin3
  
  
  >? were cited for their
  > anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
  > Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
  > 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
  > a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
  > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
  > is
  > now canon among the violent far-right
  
  Godwin4
  
  
  > as it lays out tactics and strategies
  > for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
  > Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
  > manifesto.
  >
  > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right
  
  Godwin5
  
  
  >? is its penchant for
  > making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
  > publication
  > <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
  > ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
  > the anti-fascist movement
  > <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
  > The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
  > Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
  > uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
  > reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
  >
  > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
  > worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
  > targets, i.e., some of us.
  
  yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather 
  create their own list somewhere else.
  
  
  
  
  _______________________________________________
  INDOLOGY mailing list
  INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
  indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
  http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
      
  
 
  -- 
    Patricia Sauthoff
 Postdoctoral Fellow
 AyurYog.org
 Department of History and Classics
 University of Alberta
 Edmonton, Canada      


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From koenraad.elst at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 17:45:23 2019
From: koenraad.elst at gmail.com (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 19:45:23 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS - in reaction to
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFurt+4BURs6cn5ASFh+fBKvTzKDT36yYkRu0mKG9UHdmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALOY_zEridS_-dNOhx6cKbi6_n8e7tCnyn+UQ1BJtbENvNuvqw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Arthur,


In asking for the AAIS opinion, you are, I surmise, angling for the
Hindu activist opinion. "Hindutva", some would even say. Well, the
AAIS is only in the start-up phase and has to my knowledge not
provided any comment. However, as I happen to be acquainted with the
book's publisher, I do know a few things about the book and its
reception in Hindu circles. Top scholar of Buddhism (formerly also
Rajya Sabha member for the Congress Party) Lokesh Chandra is rather
negative about it, calling it bad history.

If the summary of the book that I have is correct, it apparently says
that ultimately the Hindu Pandits are to blame for the decline of
Buddhism. But fact is that Nalanda and several other Buddhist
universities were still flourishing in 1193, when an invader force
levelled them and their inmates, after some 17 centuries in the midst
of Hindu rule. Therefore, the few Hindus who know their stuff are
going to object that it is just another instance of the hostile
Western version, with the paradigm of "Hinduism bad, Buddhism good",
and with the projection "Jesus/Pharisees = Buddha/Brahmins", or
"Luther/Popery = Buddha/Brahmins". That is certainly what you will get
to read in reviews in online pro-Hindu papers like Swarajya,
IndiaFacts, MyIndia, Pragyata, maybe the paper Pioneer, provided they
care to publish a review.

Given the lack of reading culture in Hindu circles, few will go
through the book's many pages. If somehow it reaches them, politicians
including BJP men will not utter any objections on contents provided
it comes with the necessary status. Compare, St Thomas' landing in
Kerala in +51 is certainly a myth (usually accompanied by the
anti-Brahmin blood libel that he was murdered by Brahmins in Chennai),
yet they all religiously repeat it, no matter how the few Hindu
intellectuals object.

Hope this helps.


Dr. K. Elst


On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 6:04 PM Artur Karp via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Giovanni Verardi's 2018 "THE GODS AND THE HERETICS. Crisis and ruin of Indian Buddhism" --- ?
>
> Critical reactions/opinions expressed on the AAIS discussion fora?  Are there any?
>
> Regards,
>
> Artur Karp, Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)
>
> Department of South Asian Studies (Faculty of Oriental Studies, University of Warsaw)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Jun 30 19:15:38 2019
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 21:15:38 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  AAIS - in reaction to
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFtJVbDWYb1xR8XjucMUzYxJ3V1SrqNFNvFoN0fn8YYdWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvZd3sYZGAUfbFvrpR3STTvZ2Ti51L67AW9FtE4cK5GEQ@mail.gmail.com>

No, it does not help.

It so happened, that in 1975-77, Prof. Lokesh Chandra  kindly devoted some
of his time to repeatedly try to convince me that my interest in the
traditions of Indian untouchables (sweepers and latrine cleaners) would
lead to nothing, at best - to bad history.

I do not believe Prof. Chandra was/is sufficiently qualified to judge the
quality of Prof. Verardi's archaeological work.

And: Prof. Verardi does not say that <ultimately the *Hindu Pandits* are to
blame for the decline of
Buddhism>. No, he does not,  nowhere in the book. But he points to the
group interests of the *brahmanas*, implemented, invariably, thanks to
connections with the sphere of political power, in its  manifold historical
manifestations.

Thanks, anyway,

Artur


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Jun 30 19:52:58 2019
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 19 01:22:58 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers AAIS first Annual conference
In-Reply-To: <CAHRgzy3Fxs56RXmPnHMbAwt6s2GTykXvGREL32Gb+HVV-ZNqrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYqKRfvu-07VL5FS4NOFVuUn9DxgE19w-Mg6+a4x5QCxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Prof. Jan E M Houben for your words of good heart " hope that this
List will remain a place where scholars, regardless of their political,
philosophical, ethical ... orientation, will continue to feel welcome to
announce their conferences and "conferences".

This is all that I hoped when Prof. Lavanya Vemsani posted the Call for
Papers.

I had to respond when Dr Tyler Williams posted saying that the List should
not remain a place where scholars, regardless of their political,
philosophical, ethical ... orientation, will continue to feel welcome to
announce their conferences and "conferences.

---------------------------------------

Dr Tyler Williams,

Thanks for posting a link to my writing on an other public forum
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/cbthNAM0jNc/ldkQ5bpNBgAJ> and
save a lot of my efforts in explaining why I consider calling posts that
provide counter arguments to left-leaning or Marxist posts alone as
'political' and opposing them on that basis as wrong. Such an approach is
wrong because the left-leaning or Marxist posts are blatantly political and
countering them too needs to be obviously political. my writing on an that
public forum
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/cbthNAM0jNc/ldkQ5bpNBgAJ> was
saying exactly that. When a respected professor asked the members of that
forum to avoid political positions, I was telling him that there was no
need for such an urge to avoid 'political' .

By saying,

", your response avoids the question of violence and harassment of these
faculty and students by suggesting that a condemnation of violence against
a group must necessarily condemn violence against all groups at all times
in order to be authentic. This is just another example of the fallacious
"whatabout-ism" (e.g. "All lives matter" versus "Black lives matter") that
is the hallmark of right-wing and fascist movements of the present day " ,

it is you who avoided the question of violence and harassment by the left
leaning and Marxist faith whether of the Maoist armed struggle path or the
electoral politics path . And  you saw hallmark of fascism in my showing
that you were silent about (now I see that you even justify) one kind of
harassment and violence.

You pointed out from that post that I make distinction of Indian and
western academics. When did I say I do not make that distinction ?

I was saying that the CFP posted did not have the approach of western not
welcome.

In my case while I recognise the obvious distinction between Indian and
western academics, I also recognise that those who project Sanskrit as
toxic etc. are there on both these sides of academics. I continue to
academically debate with those who take such stances  against Sanskrit,
India, Indic culture including Hindu culture etc. whether they are Indian
or western.

You were mentioning Indian constitution and threat to its foundations from
certain groups. That the left leaning and Marxist groups aim to replace the
present multiparty democratic foundations of the Indian constitution with a
single party dictatorship either through an electoral or through an armed
struggle based power capturing does not need any investigation because it
is their avowed philosophy. Can there be a greater fascist philosophy than
that?

I was not even asking for your fruitful or otherwise engagement with AAIS.


I was only pointing out the flaws in your post that was suggesting that
"the List" should not "remain a place where scholars, regardless of their
political, philosophical, ethical ... orientation, will continue to feel
welcome to announce their conferences and "conferences."

Best wishes,

Nagaraj




On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 3:20 PM Tyler Williams <tylerwwilliams at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Dr. Paturi,
>
> Thank you for your reply to my message concerning the American Academy of
> Indic Studies (AAIS); your reply illustrates two of the major reasons that
> other colleagues and I feel that a productive scholarly engagement with the
> AAIS and similar organizations is not possible.
>
> The first reason is that the AAIS and its organizers are not speaking or
> acting "in good faith": the presence of numerous contradictions and
> inconsistencies in the AAIS's own statement regarding its aims, methods,
> and broader intellectual project and its misleading use of scholarly terms,
> not to mention the fact that it takes positions on politically-charged
> topics while declaring itself "non-political", suggests that it is not
> being transparent about its scholarly, intellectual, or political
> orientation and program. I do not believe that it is possible to have a
> rational, intellectual dialogue with organizations or individuals that
> attempt to obfuscate their own ideological and intellectual commitments and
> that willfully distort their interlocutors' statements and positions.
>
> Similarly, your response to my statement does not engage substantively
> with any of the issues I have raised nor does it offer a nuanced reading of
> my statements, but rather attempts to invert their meaning through the
> tired and rather transparent trick of suggesting that those who point to
> social or ideological divisions are in fact trying to create those
> divisions. In the US, we are familiar with this hallmark of right-wing
> propaganda through examples like "Advocates of racial justice are racists
> because they always bring up race," while those in India will be familiar
> with the right-wing cliche that "Dalit activists are casteist because they
> see caste in everything." Such a bad-faith reading and response to my
> statements hardly requires any further analysis. At the same time, your
> writing on other public forums
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/cbthNAM0jNc/ldkQ5bpNBgAJ>
> about supposed divisions between "Indian" and "Western" academics reflects
> that you do, in fact, believe in this distinction
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/cbthNAM0jNc/5L8OKuRwBgAJ>,
> though you demure from acknowledging it here. Again, it is difficult for me
> to see this as a dialogue made in good faith.
>
> The second reason for our anxieties regarding the AAIS is the lack of
> respect shown by some (though, it must be said, not all) of its organizers
> for basic collegiality and freedom of speech and thought. These individuals
> have clearly stated on public forums their preference for a Hindu
> majoritarian state over India's current structure of a secular republic,
> their belief that secularism produces bad scholarship and that left-leaning
> Indian intellectuals are part of a Maoist-led conspiracy to destabilize
> India; they have accused their colleagues and their own students of
> sedition, and have tried to publicly justify violence against Indian
> university faculty and students at the hands of both the state and also
> non-state actors like the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad.
>
> Similarly, your response avoids the question of violence and harassment of
> these faculty and students by suggesting that a condemnation of violence
> against a group must necessarily condemn violence against all groups at all
> times in order to be authentic. This is just another example of the
> fallacious "whatabout-ism" (e.g. "All lives matter" versus "Black lives
> matter") that is the hallmark of right-wing and fascist movements of the
> present day. This kind of equivocation reflects such a deep level of
> cynicism that I frankly have nothing to say about it.
>
> In summary, until the AAIS and other such organizations demonstrate that
> they can act in good faith and with respect for the rights of all members
> of the academic community, I cannot see a possibility for fruitful
> intellectual engagement with them. Similarly, you and I have such vastly
> different notions of what constitutes intellectual honesty and basic human
> decency that I do not believe that we can have a productive exchange or
> correspondence; therefore I suggest that we end this thread here, unless
> anyone else has something to add.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tyler Williams
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 5:46 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Correction:
>>
>> I wanted to say
>>
>> Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against  scholars of
>> that political leaning with the organization sending the CFP is what is
>> objectionable in that approach.
>>
>> not
>>
>> Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against only scholars
>> of that political leaning with the organization sending the CFP is what is
>> objectionable in that approach.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 12:14 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Dr Tyler Williams,
>>>
>>> Your post below has many expressions that deserve response.
>>>
>>> You accuse AAIS as an organisation that divides scholars studying Indic
>>> Civilization into "we Indians" and "they the Western". The very fact that
>>> the CFP is shared on this forum where a very big number of western scholars
>>> are members and it is inviting all the members to contribute to the
>>> conference, shows that no such attitude of only Indian no western
>>> participation in the study of Indic Civilization exists in the CFP or in
>>> the organization that shared it here.
>>>
>>> While the CFP is being posted by a scholar dedicated to the study of the
>>> discipline of History , you say that the CFP and the organization sharing
>>> it are opposed to the discipline of History. " Religious Studies" is a
>>> discipline that does not exist in any Indian university and exists only in
>>> the west. The person sharing the CFP has a PhD degree in that discipline.
>>> You say that the CFP and the organization sharing it are opposed to
>>> 'western' disciplines. You say that the organisation represented by the
>>> scholar sharing the CFP calls "History", a western discipline and is
>>> opposed to it while the fact is that she is a professor of that very
>>> discipline History.
>>>
>>> Your post characterizes and caricatures the Indology list as a forum of
>>> left leaning intellectuals who consider only the left leaning/ Marxist
>>> Indian scholars as "our Indian colleagues" . I don't think Indology list is
>>> such, though, there is a possibility of scholars with such a leaning being
>>> in good numbers here.
>>>
>>> More agonizing is the repeated use of words such as "harassment" and
>>> "violence" in your post. You say that this harassment and violence happens
>>> to " our" non-Maoist  "  Indian colleagues" because of conflating them with
>>> the " Maoist rebels ". You mention the word " Urban Naxals" which is the
>>> title of a recent book by Sri Vivek Agnihotri. That book starts with the
>>> description of an incident of violence against him. It is not clear whether
>>> the violence against him described there was the act of Maoist rebels are
>>> the Marxists who are not Maoist rebels but allowed they getting conflated
>>> with the Maoist rebels. That apart, such incidents prove who, in Indian
>>> academic institutions, for all the past decades after independence,  have
>>> been in a position of committing "harassment" and "violence" against those
>>> who disagree with them.
>>>
>>> In any case, singling out the "harassment" and "violence" against only
>>> scholars of a certain political leaning and ignoring harassment and
>>> violence against scholars of other kind of thinking is blatently visible in
>>> your post.  Baselessly linking the  "harassment" and "violence" against
>>> only scholars of that political leaning with the organization sending the
>>> CFP is what is objectionable in that approach.
>>>
>>> You bring back the last WSC discussion saying , "in order to suggest
>>> that the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the quite
>>> literal form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*." after
>>> the organisers clarified that violence and not allowing were not facts and
>>> the discussion in that regard was closed here after that clarification.
>>>
>>> Your words
>>>
>>> "In other words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians"
>>> versus "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian
>>> knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites
>>> that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups."
>>>
>>> while putting into the mouth of the organizers the non-existing attitude
>>> of  "the argument  to be between "we Indians" versus "non-Indians," ",
>>>
>>> makes the perception
>>>
>>> "that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us,
>>> were produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing
>>> other groups"
>>>
>>> to be a fact.
>>>
>>> What is the purpose of academic forums and conferences if it is not to
>>> discuss such fact-perception differences and such  claims which are
>>> contestable and debatable.
>>>
>>> You list one kind of post-colonial studies
>>>
>>> which has theorizations such as
>>>
>>> 1. colonialism (and its epistemological violence) were carried out by
>>> European *together with *members of elite South Asian communities,
>>>
>>>  2) due to that epistemic rupture it is no longer possible to access
>>> some kind of "pure" indigenous knowledge or understanding,
>>>
>>>
>>> as THE (only) post-colonial studies paradigm
>>>
>>> and don't show the diligence that other approaches to post-colonial
>>> studies are possible.
>>>
>>> It does not reflect nuanced understanding and intricate understanding of
>>> issues such as Orality and Literacy, history of accessibility of certain
>>> kinds of texts in comparison to the other kinds of texts due to the history
>>> of European scholarly attention to certain texts in comparison to the other
>>> kind of texts and the projection of that colonial and European lack of
>>> accessing and lesser prioritization as "silencing" by the authors of the
>>> texts accessed by the Europeans.
>>>
>>> Yes,   "academics have a responsibility to listen to marginalized and
>>> formerly silenced voices of history (and the present)"
>>>
>>> Paradigms alternative to  those of the post-colonial studies listed by
>>> you under your # 1 & 2 above,
>>>
>>> and countering views to the
>>>
>>> views such as
>>>
>>> "that South Asian knowledge systems, by and large as they come to us,
>>> were produced by elites that were oftentimes involved in marginalizing
>>> other groups"
>>>
>>> that have been made into the global academic mainstream using the global
>>> political power
>>>
>>> are the ones currently globally marginalized  and global academics have
>>> responsibility to listen to these alternative views.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:12 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> With all due respect to the colleague who posted this announcement, I
>>>> must express serious misgivings about the nature of the proposed
>>>> "conference," so serious that I am uncomfortable with the Indology
>>>> listserve being used to promote this event.
>>>>
>>>> There is no delicate way to put it: the AAIS is a Hindutva ideological
>>>> project with specious intellectual foundations that is not only hostile to
>>>> the disciplines and work of many of the scholars on this list but that also
>>>> aligns itself with a politics that encourages harassment and even violence
>>>> against our colleagues in India.
>>>>
>>>> The AAIS, per its website, states the reason for its existence thus:
>>>> until now, "Western" disciplines like history, philology, philosophy,
>>>> etcetera have been used to understand Indic material and are not sufficient
>>>> for the task; therefore a new academic program is necessary that uses
>>>> "Indic" knowledge systems to understand Indian material. This well-worn
>>>> nativist argument ignores two important things: first, systems of knowledge
>>>> like history, philology, philosophy, etcetera were practiced in South Asia
>>>> during the precolonial period-- a fact that many scholars of this list
>>>> demonstrate in their research-- and second, the fact that many scholars
>>>> working in so-called "Western" disciplines (because whether we work in
>>>> South Asian or other universities, we all have to work in existing
>>>> departments) actually use South Asian knowledge systems in their study of
>>>> texts, history, social phenomenon, and the like. The fact that many of us
>>>> were trained in South Asian institutions by traditionally-trained
>>>> scholars--or by non-Indian scholars well -steeped in things like nyaya,
>>>> kavyasastra, itihasa, etc.--should tell one that we do, in fact, take South
>>>> Asian knowledge systems seriously.
>>>>
>>>> The AAIS's charter and mission are, in fact, anti-intellectual and
>>>> built on highly dubious arguments. Like several similar organizations that
>>>> have sprung up over the last several years with the rise of Hindutva
>>>> politics, it appropriates the language of postcolonial studies while
>>>> totally rejecting both the theoretical and ethical imperatives of
>>>> postcolonial studies. Postcolonial studies argues 1) that colonialism (and
>>>> its epistemological violence) were carried out by European *together
>>>> with* members of elite South Asian communities, 2) due to that
>>>> epistemic rupture it is no longer possible to access some kind of "pure"
>>>> indigenous knowledge or understanding, and 3) academics have a
>>>> responsibility to listen to marginalized and formerly silenced voices of
>>>> history (and the present).
>>>>
>>>> In contrast, the AAIS poses such vague and theoretically problematic
>>>> questions as "Would the academic presentation of the Indic civilization be
>>>> different if it had been the work of scholars who did not use Western
>>>> theories and categories?" and makes anti-historical assertions such as "The
>>>> term ?Indic? is a reference, not just to India as a modern contemporary
>>>> country, but to the civilization that has been known internationally and
>>>> historically by the river Indus. It refers to more than 5000 years of a
>>>> continuous civilization whose kernel is a unique knowledge system which is
>>>> beneficial to all humankind." The anti-historical, anti-intellectual, and
>>>> nationalist implications of this should be clear.
>>>>
>>>> Most worryingly, the AAIS appears to ignore the most fundamental tenets
>>>> of postcolonial criticism: to constantly and self-reflexively locate
>>>> oneself as a scholar in institutions and dynamics of power. Groups like the
>>>> AAIS imply that the only power differential is between "Western" scholars
>>>> and "Indian" natives; doing so requires eliding or ignoring the massive and
>>>> complicated relationships of power in South Asian societies. In other
>>>> words, in making the argument out to be between "we Indians" versus
>>>> "non-Indians," the organizers elide the fact that South Asian knowledge
>>>> systems, by and large as they come to us, were produced by elites that were
>>>> oftentimes involved in marginalizing other groups.
>>>>
>>>> This dynamic came out nowhere more vividly than on this list (and
>>>> others) after the last WSC: those of the nativist Hindutva persuasion
>>>> complained that allowing women who had suffered marginalization in the
>>>> Sanskrit-learning community to speak about that marginalization was
>>>> anti-Indian and part of a global conspiracy to malign the Indian nation. In
>>>> this case, suppressing dissent *within* the Indian community in order
>>>> to suggest that the conflict was between Indians and westerners took on the
>>>> quite literal form of *not allowing the marginalized women to speak*.
>>>>
>>>> Finally-- and I realize the seriousness of this claim-- the AAIS and
>>>> similar organizations ally with a politics that has encouraged the
>>>> marginalization, harassment, and even violence against our colleagues in
>>>> India, including colleagues on this list. The AAIS website specifically
>>>> singles out "Marxism" as one of the evils of "Western" scholarship; this is
>>>> (and has been) used as a dogwhistle to attack any left-leaning (or even
>>>> centrist) scholars working in India. A few of the AAIS board members
>>>> themselves have repeated and amplified calls for rooting out "urban
>>>> Naxals," a term that conflates left-leaning academics with Maoist rebels in
>>>> India. We are all only too aware of the real danger this kind of politics
>>>> poses for the lives and livelihoods of Indian colleagues.
>>>>
>>>> I apologize for using the space of the listserve for a polemic; I am
>>>> just tired of seeing the scholarly forum which Dominik and others have
>>>> worked so hard to build used for a purpose that is directly hostile to the
>>>> work of so many of us. The AAIS presents itself as a serious, progressive
>>>> voice; I am afraid that it is anything but.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>
>>>> Tyler Williams
>>>> University of Chicago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:30 AM Lavanya Vemsani via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>> Attached below is the CFP for AAIS conference. Please plan to join us
>>>>> for the First Annual Conference.
>>>>> Please circulate the CFP widely.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> Lavanya
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Call for Papers for the Inaugural Conference of
>>>>>
>>>>> American Academy of Indic Studies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The American Academy Of Indic Studies (AAIS) is a scholarly,
>>>>> non-political, non-religious, and non-profit academy for scholars and
>>>>> students interested in Indic civilization. We work with the objective to
>>>>> promote study and research of Indic Civilization in Academia. More info at
>>>>> www.AAIndicStudies.org <http://www.aaindicstudies.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> For its inaugural conference, AAIS invites proposals for scholarly
>>>>> presentations on the issues of ?Indic Civilization and Postcolonialism?. We
>>>>> invite proposals from a broad category of academic disciplines to submit
>>>>> their research in the processes and endeavors of postcolonialism of Indic
>>>>> wisdom and traditions.
>>>>>
>>>>> The objective of this conference is to explore the influences of the
>>>>> ?Occident? and ?Modernity? on the Indic intellectual culture and society at
>>>>> large. It will be highly valuable to evaluate those influences and
>>>>> investigate attempts towards drafting a long term agenda towards
>>>>> postcolonialism. An inquiry into the structural, procedural, or attitudinal
>>>>> obstacles to better incorporate postcolonialism is the prime intent under
>>>>> consideration. The plan is to appraise what you think would be the ideal
>>>>> arrangement for systematic investigation, publication, and dialogue over
>>>>> the coming decade, in order to involve mainstream academia in the process
>>>>> of postcolonialism.
>>>>>
>>>>> The deadline for abstract submissions is Oct 15th
>>>>>
>>>>> Conference Date: Feb 20-22, 2020
>>>>>
>>>>> Conference Venue: Dallas, Texas in affiliation with
>>>>> https://www.naaas.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Conference Proceedings: To be announced.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Lavanya Vemsani*
>>>>> Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
>>>>> Shawnee State University
>>>>> President, *Ohio Academy of History *
>>>>> Co-founder, *American Academy of Indic Studies *
>>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>>> *American Journal of Indic Studies*
>>>>> Managing Editor
>>>>> *International Journal of Indic Religions *
>>>>> *Associate Editor *
>>>>> *-Canadian Journal of History *
>>>>> *-Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs*
>>>>> http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Sun Jun 30 20:17:32 2019
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 22:17:32 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsDp7zfic8+5+jCekv0aaxtxVcMd+U53m3CA=0Gw4MegKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <da2c12cc-2150-1ae6-56ff-1956c88f65b9@wanadoo.fr>

@ Antonia Ruppel

Obviously, you're a total leftist shithead.

To start with, Nazis were Socialists. They have nothing to do with the 
Right or even less with the Far-Right, whatever that means.

So you "mail" is nothing but allout Marxist crap.

So I would call the NiwBitch on your mail.

With Best Regards.

A.F



Le 30/06/2019 ? 20:24, Antonia Ruppel a ?crit?:
> It should also be pointed out that the discussion has gone beyond 
> Godwin's Law to Niwdog's law (Godwin reversed): this is when a 
> discussion member claims Godwin's law in a case where the person 
> called a Nazi for all intents and purposes is a Nazi, where someone 
> called a right-wing extremist actually is a right-wing extremist, etc. 
> This is the common name for what Hans pointed out in relation to the 
> Godwin's Law Wikipedia entry.
>
> And so I call Niwdog's Law on Arnaud's original email.
>
> --Antonia
>
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 18:44, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks all.
>
>     Dean
>
>     On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 10:59:12 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet
>     <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr <mailto:fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>
>
>     yes, precisely so
>
>     IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like
>     "far-right" or "racist" and non-authorized insults like "asshole",
>     "bastard", etc.
>
>     The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the
>     other set is usually not accepted.
>
>     Best regards
>
>     A.F
>
>
>     Le 30/06/2019 ? 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a ?crit?:
>     Dear Dean,
>
>     It's a reference to Godwin's law
>     <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>, "if an online
>     discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough,
>     sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf
>     Hitler or his deeds".
>
>     On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson
>     <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com <mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>
>     wrote:
>
>         Could you please clarify your point for us who are
>         Godwin-deprived?
>
>         Best,
>
>         Dean
>
>         On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet
>         via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>
>
>         Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit?:
>         > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
>         > From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca
>         <mailto:sauthoff at ualberta.ca>>
>         > To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>         > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
>         > Message-ID:
>         > ???
>         <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com
>         <mailto:CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>>
>         > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>         >
>         > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the
>         far-right,
>
>         Godwin1
>
>
>         >? you may
>         > enjoy reading this short article
>         >
>         http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
>         > You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling
>         and gaslighting,
>         > to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech
>         issue.
>         >
>         > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this
>         and it is a
>         > performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is
>         meant to bait those
>         > who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their
>         words around
>         > against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>         >
>         > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
>         >
>         <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
>         > and Robert Spencer
>         >
>         <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
>         > as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is
>         a dog whistle.
>         > Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right
>
>         Godwin2
>
>
>         > anti-Muslim activists.
>         > Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism.
>         A security
>         > guard was shot
>         >
>         <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
>         > at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to
>         the person who
>         > drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>         >
>         > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers
>
>         Godwin3
>
>
>         >? were cited for their
>         > anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian
>         terrorist
>         > Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll
>         remember the
>         > 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers
>         on an island by
>         > a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
>         >
>         <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
>         > is
>         > now canon among the violent far-right
>
>         Godwin4
>
>
>         > as it lays out tactics and strategies
>         > for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The
>         Austrailian-born
>         > Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in
>         his own
>         > manifesto.
>         >
>         > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right
>
>         Godwin5
>
>
>         >? is its penchant for
>         > making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently
>         an online
>         > publication
>         >
>         <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
>         > ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to
>         be connected to
>         > the anti-fascist movement
>         >
>         <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
>         > The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist
>         forum
>         > Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a
>         YouTube user
>         > uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with
>         images of the
>         > reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the
>         Media.?"
>         >
>         > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just
>         words afterall. I
>         > worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their
>         own list of
>         > targets, i.e., some of us.
>
>         yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right"
>         should rather
>         create their own list somewhere else.
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         INDOLOGY mailing list
>         INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>         indology-owner at list.indology.info
>         <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the
>         list's managing committee)
>         http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>         options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Patricia Sauthoff
>     Postdoctoral Fellow
>     AyurYog.org <http://AyurYog.org>
>     Department of History and Classics
>     University of Alberta
>     Edmonton, Canada
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> -- 
> Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
> Researcher, 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax'
> Department of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics
> Junior Research Fellow, Kellogg College
> University of Oxford
>
> Author, The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Sun Jun 30 21:08:37 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia SAUTHOFF)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 15:08:37 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <da2c12cc-2150-1ae6-56ff-1956c88f65b9@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <B51295C2-3B6F-4465-8D1D-63DD7EBBA7DE@ualberta.ca>

Seems Audrey Truschke may have had a point valid point regarding the sexism on this list. 

This is totally inappropriate. I find this list a valuable resource but I will not be part of it if this type of language is deemed anything resembling acceptable. 

> On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
> @ Antonia Ruppel
> 
> Obviously, you're a total leftist shithead.
> 
> To start with, Nazis were Socialists. They have nothing to do with the Right or even less with the Far-Right, whatever that means.
> 
> So you "mail" is nothing but allout Marxist crap.
> 
> So I would call the NiwBitch on your mail.
> 
> With Best Regards.
> 
> A.F
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 30/06/2019 ? 20:24, Antonia Ruppel a ?crit :
>> It should also be pointed out that the discussion has gone beyond Godwin's Law to Niwdog's law (Godwin reversed):  this is when a discussion member claims Godwin's law in a case where the person called a Nazi for all intents and purposes is a Nazi, where someone called a right-wing extremist actually is a right-wing extremist, etc. This is the common name for what Hans pointed out in relation to the Godwin's Law Wikipedia entry.
>> 
>> And so I call Niwdog's Law on Arnaud's original email.
>> 
>> --Antonia
>> 
>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 18:44, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>> Thanks all.
>>> 
>>> Dean
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 10:59:12 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> yes, precisely so
>>> 
>>> IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like "far-right" or "racist" and non-authorized insults like "asshole", "bastard", etc.
>>> 
>>> The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the other set is usually not accepted.
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> 
>>> A.F
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le 30/06/2019 ? 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a ?crit :
>>> Dear Dean,
>>> 
>>> It's a reference to Godwin's law, "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Dean
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>                                     wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit :
>>> > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
>>> > From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca>
>>> > To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
>>> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,
>>> 
>>> Godwin1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >  you may
>>> > enjoy reading this short article
>>> > http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
>>> > You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
>>> > to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>>> >
>>> > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
>>> > performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
>>> > who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
>>> > against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>>> >
>>> > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
>>> > <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
>>> > and Robert Spencer
>>> > <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
>>> > as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
>>> > Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right
>>> 
>>> Godwin2
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > anti-Muslim activists.
>>> > Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
>>> > guard was shot
>>> > <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
>>> > at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
>>> > drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>>> >
>>> > These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers
>>> 
>>> Godwin3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >  were cited for their
>>> > anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
>>> > Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
>>> > 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
>>> > a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
>>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
>>> > is
>>> > now canon among the violent far-right
>>> 
>>> Godwin4
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > as it lays out tactics and strategies
>>> > for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
>>> > Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
>>> > manifesto.
>>> >
>>> > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right
>>> 
>>> Godwin5
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >  is its penchant for
>>> > making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
>>> > publication
>>> > <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
>>> > ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
>>> > the anti-fascist movement
>>> > <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
>>> > The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
>>> > Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
>>> > uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
>>> > reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>>> >
>>> > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
>>> > worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
>>> > targets, i.e., some of us.
>>> 
>>> yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather 
>>> create their own list somewhere else.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Patricia Sauthoff
>>> Postdoctoral Fellow
>>> AyurYog.org
>>> Department of History and Classics
>>> University of Alberta
>>> Edmonton, Canada
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
>> Researcher, 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax'
>> Department of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics
>> Junior Research Fellow, Kellogg College
>> University of Oxford
>> 
>> Author, The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit


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From kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Sun Jun 30 21:15:39 2019
From: kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Agathe Keller)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 21:15:39 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] just support
Message-ID: <etPan.5d19267a.172f0d1c.630@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Tyler, patricia and antonia,

just an off list message of support and warmth as the level of insults gets worse at every posting

twenty years back already the original indology list had came down precisely by a simillar kind of attack in which Konrad Elst was  already involved?

it shows how right you are to hold you?re ground and how in danger a certain kind of gentle academia is, alas

best

Agathe


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From baums at lmu.de  Sun Jun 30 21:26:05 2019
From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 23:26:05 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rules of conduct
Message-ID: <87y31i7ok2.fsf@lmu.de>

Dear Indology list,

all members of this list are reminded to abide by our rules of
conduct

   5. Rules of conduct: Full members will be expected to maintain
   commonly-accepted standards of decorum in their postings to the
   group. Contributions are expected to be polite and
   well-considered. Members who violate these standards will be
   warned and may have their membership privileges suspended or
   revoked if the behaviour continues. In particular, personal
   attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic
   postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and
   understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum
   shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. Members must be
   familiar with the standard rules of netiquette, such as those
   in RFC 1855 [RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines].

as laid down in list?s Scope and Guidelines

   http://indology.info/email/email-const/

In light of his most recent post, Arnaud Fournet?s list account
has been set to moderated status, to ensure immediately that no
further posts of his that violate our rules of conduct reach the
list, as the committee discusses further steps.

Let us please return to a civil and mutually respectful
conversation on Indological topics.

With best regards,
Stefan Baums
(Indology committee member on duty)

-- 
Stefan Baums, Ph.D.
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen





From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Jun 30 21:27:50 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 21:27:50 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <B51295C2-3B6F-4465-8D1D-63DD7EBBA7DE@ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <CY4PR11MB1784E6F23CB703F5E1B22792A1FE0@CY4PR11MB1784.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

AF's language is utterly reprehensible and has no place on an academic list.

Very broad difference of opinion may be tolerated, but obscene vulgarity, gutter-speak, should be ruled out of court.


AF gives a whole new meaning to "logorrhea"....


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Patricia SAUTHOFF via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:08:37 PM
To: Arnaud Fournet
Cc: Indology List; Antonia Ruppel; koenraad.elst at telenet.be
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin

Seems Audrey Truschke may have had a point valid point regarding the sexism on this list.

This is totally inappropriate. I find this list a valuable resource but I will not be part of it if this type of language is deemed anything resembling acceptable.

On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr<mailto:fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:


@ Antonia Ruppel

Obviously, you're a total leftist shithead.

To start with, Nazis were Socialists. They have nothing to do with the Right or even less with the Far-Right, whatever that means.

So you "mail" is nothing but allout Marxist crap.

So I would call the NiwBitch on your mail.

With Best Regards.

A.F



Le 30/06/2019 ? 20:24, Antonia Ruppel a ?crit :
It should also be pointed out that the discussion has gone beyond Godwin's Law to Niwdog's law (Godwin reversed):  this is when a discussion member claims Godwin's law in a case where the person called a Nazi for all intents and purposes is a Nazi, where someone called a right-wing extremist actually is a right-wing extremist, etc. This is the common name for what Hans pointed out in relation to the Godwin's Law Wikipedia entry.

And so I call Niwdog's Law on Arnaud's original email.

--Antonia

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 18:44, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Thanks all.

Dean

On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 10:59:12 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr<mailto:fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:



yes, precisely so

IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like "far-right" or "racist" and non-authorized insults like "asshole", "bastard", etc.

The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the other set is usually not accepted.

Best regards

A.F


Le 30/06/2019 ? 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a ?crit :
Dear Dean,

It's a reference to Godwin's law<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>, "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?

Best,

Dean

On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
> From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca<mailto:sauthoff at ualberta.ca>>
> To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
> Message-ID:
>     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,

Godwin1


>  you may
> enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
> and Robert Spencer
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
> as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right

Godwin2


> anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
> at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
> drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers

Godwin3


>  were cited for their
> anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
> Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
> 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
> a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
> is
> now canon among the violent far-right

Godwin4


> as it lays out tactics and strategies
> for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
> Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
> manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right

Godwin5


>  is its penchant for
> making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication
> <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
> ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
> the anti-fascist movement
> <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
> The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
> Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
> uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
> reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
> worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.

yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather
create their own list somewhere else.




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org<http://AyurYog.org>
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
Researcher, 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax'
Department of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics
Junior Research Fellow, Kellogg College
University of Oxford

Author, The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit


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From vjroebuck at btinternet.com  Sun Jun 30 21:29:47 2019
From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 22:29:47 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rules of conduct
In-Reply-To: <87y31i7ok2.fsf@lmu.de>
Message-ID: <D3C4A1C2-DAC2-4511-81C3-2233AD71DBAB@btinternet.com>

Dear Stefan

Thank you.

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

> On 30 Jun 2019, at 22:26, Stefan Baums via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Indology list,
> 
> all members of this list are reminded to abide by our rules of
> conduct
> 
>   5. Rules of conduct: Full members will be expected to maintain
>   commonly-accepted standards of decorum in their postings to the
>   group. Contributions are expected to be polite and
>   well-considered. Members who violate these standards will be
>   warned and may have their membership privileges suspended or
>   revoked if the behaviour continues. In particular, personal
>   attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic
>   postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and
>   understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum
>   shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. Members must be
>   familiar with the standard rules of netiquette, such as those
>   in RFC 1855 [RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines].
> 
> as laid down in list?s Scope and Guidelines
> 
>   http://indology.info/email/email-const/
> 
> In light of his most recent post, Arnaud Fournet?s list account
> has been set to moderated status, to ensure immediately that no
> further posts of his that violate our rules of conduct reach the
> list, as the committee discusses further steps.
> 
> Let us please return to a civil and mutually respectful
> conversation on Indological topics.
> 
> With best regards,
> Stefan Baums
> (Indology committee member on duty)
> 
> -- 
> Stefan Baums, Ph.D.
> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sun Jun 30 21:39:01 2019
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 21:39:01 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsAacoM4eyfzCscF8_n4EENskaWXUsFnzfO_TGWFVwqT5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY4PR11MB1784BC0BB6AEAE130509B95DA1FE0@CY4PR11MB1784.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Antonia,


that's why I said a "whole new meaning" .....


cheers,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: Antonia Ruppel <antonia.ruppel at ling-phil.ox.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:32:05 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein
Cc: Patricia SAUTHOFF; Indology; koenraad.elst at telenet.be
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin

Dear Matthew,



AF gives a whole new meaning to "logorrhea"....


I was actually rather impressed with how brief and to the point Arnaud managed to keep his reply to me! As for what you say about his tone: that I agree with:-).

All the best,
     Antonia


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Patricia SAUTHOFF via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:08:37 PM
To: Arnaud Fournet
Cc: Indology List; Antonia Ruppel; koenraad.elst at telenet.be<mailto:koenraad.elst at telenet.be>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] About Godwin

Seems Audrey Truschke may have had a point valid point regarding the sexism on this list.

This is totally inappropriate. I find this list a valuable resource but I will not be part of it if this type of language is deemed anything resembling acceptable.

On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr<mailto:fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:


@ Antonia Ruppel

Obviously, you're a total leftist shithead.

To start with, Nazis were Socialists. They have nothing to do with the Right or even less with the Far-Right, whatever that means.

So you "mail" is nothing but allout Marxist crap.

So I would call the NiwBitch on your mail.

With Best Regards.

A.F



Le 30/06/2019 ? 20:24, Antonia Ruppel a ?crit :
It should also be pointed out that the discussion has gone beyond Godwin's Law to Niwdog's law (Godwin reversed):  this is when a discussion member claims Godwin's law in a case where the person called a Nazi for all intents and purposes is a Nazi, where someone called a right-wing extremist actually is a right-wing extremist, etc. This is the common name for what Hans pointed out in relation to the Godwin's Law Wikipedia entry.

And so I call Niwdog's Law on Arnaud's original email.

--Antonia

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 18:44, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Thanks all.

Dean

On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 10:59:12 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr<mailto:fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:



yes, precisely so

IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like "far-right" or "racist" and non-authorized insults like "asshole", "bastard", etc.

The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the other set is usually not accepted.

Best regards

A.F


Le 30/06/2019 ? 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a ?crit :
Dear Dean,

It's a reference to Godwin's law<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law>, "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived?

Best,

Dean

On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:



Le 30/06/2019 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
> From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca<mailto:sauthoff at ualberta.ca>>
> To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting each other in public
> Message-ID:
>     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted by the far-right,

Godwin1


>  you may
> enjoy reading this short article
> http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
> You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them all, from trolling and gaslighting,
> to victimization, to turning everything into a free speech issue.
>
> Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional about this and it is a
> performance for those lurkers who silently agree. It is meant to bait those
> who do not agree into "debate" in order to try to turn their words around
> against them, as Elst attempted to do in his response to me.
>
> In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela Geller
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
> and Robert Spencer
> <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
> as subjects who have had their free speech trampled. This is a dog whistle.
> Geller and Spencer are opportunistic far-right

Godwin2


> anti-Muslim activists.
> Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013 due to his extremism. A security
> guard was shot
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
> at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a $10K prize to the person who
> drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
>
> These writers, Elst, and many other far-right writers

Godwin3


>  were cited for their
> anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written by the Norwegian terrorist
> Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar, perhaps you'll remember the
> 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass shooting of teenagers on an island by
> a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total. Brevik's manifesto
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
> is
> now canon among the violent far-right

Godwin4


> as it lays out tactics and strategies
> for online harassment and real-world terrorism. The Austrailian-born
> Christchurch shooter made reference to it as inspiration in his own
> manifesto.
>
> To me, the most worrying tactic of the online far-right

Godwin5


>  is its penchant for
> making lists of "leftists" in order to target them. Recently an online
> publication
> <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
> ran an article with a list of journalists they believed to be connected to
> the anti-fascist movement
> <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
> The article "was circulated approvingly on white supremacist forum
> Stormfront the day after its publication; a day later, a YouTube user
> uploaded a video of imagery of mass shooters intercut with images of the
> reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
>
> Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet aren't just words afterall. I
> worry that lurkers on this email listserv may build their own list of
> targets, i.e., some of us.

yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word "far-right" should rather
create their own list somewhere else.




_______________________________________________
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http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org<http://AyurYog.org>
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
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http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
Researcher, 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax'
Department of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics
Junior Research Fellow, Kellogg College
University of Oxford

Author, The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit


--
Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
Researcher, 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax'
Department of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics
Junior Research Fellow, Kellogg College
University of Oxford

Author, The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit


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From sauthoff at ualberta.ca  Sun Jun 30 23:01:47 2019
From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 19 17:01:47 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] just support
In-Reply-To: <etPan.5d19267a.172f0d1c.630@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <CAPAr6cH-85PdEiF0OdnWCZhs3OcPU=38KMsX4LpzrAO4_ec4ng@mail.gmail.com>

Best wishes to you Agathe. Your support is greatly appreciated. If nothing
else, though I think the case can easily be made for excluding Elst at this
stage, hopefully we can amend the language to prevent such undermining and
demeaning attacks from escalating or at least allow the committee easier
recourse to disinviting abusers from the forum.

Cheers!

Patricia

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 3:16 PM Agathe Keller <kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr>
wrote:

> Dear Tyler, patricia and antonia,
>
> just an off list message of support and warmth as the level of insults
> gets worse at every posting
>
> twenty years back already the original indology list had came down
> precisely by a simillar kind of attack in which Konrad Elst was  already
> involved?
>
> it shows how right you are to hold you?re ground and how in danger a
> certain kind of gentle academia is, alas
>
> best
>
> Agathe
>


-- 
Patricia Sauthoff
Postdoctoral Fellow
AyurYog.org
Department of History and Classics
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada


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