[INDOLOGY] About Godwin

Mon Jul 1 04:23:02 UTC 2019

 Those are two different subjects: the freedom to express opinions vs. the expression of them in a way that makes them likely to be paid attention to.
Anyway, I've said my piece. And learned more about Godwin's Law. For that I thank you.

Best,
Dean

    On Monday, July 1, 2019, 9:33:05 AM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr> wrote:  

No, it does not vitiate my point.

Obviously some insults are authorized, some others are not.

That's exactly what this exchange of mails has proved.

A.F

 Le 01/07/2019 à 05:49, Dean Michael Anderson a écrit :

 I have to say that this must cross some kind of line of accepted behavior on this list.

  I support the expression of a wide range of opinions, even if I don't agree with them. But even if I agreed with you, I would take exception at this kind of language and the vitriol. 
  From a practical perspective, it also vitiates any point you might be trying to make. 
  Dean Anderson

      On Monday, July 1, 2019, 1:47:36 AM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr> wrote:  

@ Antonia Ruppel

Obviously, you're a total leftist shithead.

To start with, Nazis were Socialists. They have nothing to do with the Right or even less with the Far-Right, whatever that means.

So you "mail" is nothing but allout Marxist crap.

So I would call the NiwBitch on your mail.

With Best Regards.

A.F

 Le 30/06/2019 à 20:24, Antonia Ruppel a écrit :

    It should also be pointed out that the discussion has gone beyond Godwin's Law to Niwdog's law (Godwin reversed):  this is when a discussion member claims Godwin's law in a case where the person called a Nazi for all intents and purposes is  a Nazi, where someone called a right-wing extremist actually is a right-wing extremist, etc. This is the common name for what Hans pointed out in relation to the Godwin's Law Wikipedia entry.  
  And so I call Niwdog's Law on Arnaud's original email.  
  --Antonia  
  On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 18:44, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

   Thanks all. 
  Dean

     On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 10:59:12 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr> wrote:  

yes, precisely so

IMHO, the issue is that there are authorized insults like "far-right" or "racist" and non-authorized  insults like "asshole", "bastard", etc.

The first set usually escapes moderation censureship, while the other set is usually not accepted.

Best regards

A.F

 Le 30/06/2019 à 19:25, Patricia Sauthoff a écrit :
     Dear Dean, 
  It's a reference to  Godwin's law, "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long  enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds".  
   On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 11:13 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:

   Could you please clarify your point for us who are Godwin-deprived? 
  Best, 
  Dean

     On Sunday, June 30, 2019, 9:57:21 PM GMT+5:30, Arnaud Fournet  via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  

  Le 30/06/2019 à 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a écrit :
  > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:45:23 -0600
  > From: Patricia Sauthoff<sauthoff at ualberta.ca>
  > To: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
  > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Supporting  each other in public
  > Message-ID:
  >     <CAPAr6cGGK1NkzM0eetnNrjGgCSc0A-OhcWGsa2ZqPW17xi0axQ at mail.gmail.com>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
  >
  > For those who are unaware of the tactics adopted  by the far-right,

  Godwin1

  >  you may
  > enjoy reading this short article
  > http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/jeff-stein-strategic-speech-and-alt-right-metapolitics/,
  > You'll see that Dr. Elst utilizes them  all, from trolling and gaslighting,
  > to victimization, to turning everything  into a free speech issue.
  >
  > Make no mistake, there is nothing unintentional  about this and it is a
  > performance for those lurkers who silently  agree. It is meant to bait those
  > who do not agree into "debate" in order to  try to turn their words around
  > against them, as Elst attempted to do in his  response to me.
  >
  > In his earlier email, Elst presents Pamela  Geller
  > <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/pamela-geller>
  > and Robert Spencer
  > <https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer>
  > as subjects who have had their free speech  trampled. This is a dog whistle.
  > Geller and Spencer are opportunistic  far-right

  Godwin2

  > anti-Muslim activists.
  > Spencer was banned from the UK in 2013  due to his extremism. A security
  > guard was shot
  > <https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/us/gunmen-killed-after-firing-on-anti-islam-groups-event.html>
  > at a stunt in Texas in which they offered a  $10K prize to the person who
  > drew the "best" cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed.
  >
  > These writers, Elst, and many other  far-right writers

  Godwin3

  >  were cited for their
  > anti-Islamic views in the manifesto written  by the Norwegian terrorist
  > Anders Brevik. If that name isn't familiar,  perhaps you'll remember the
  > 2011 Oslo bombing and subsequent mass  shooting of teenagers on an island by
  > a "lone wolf" who killed 77 people in total.  Brevik's manifesto
  > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Manifesto:_2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence>
  > is
  > now canon among the violent far-right

  Godwin4

  > as it lays out tactics and strategies
  > for online harassment and real-world terrorism.  The Austrailian-born
  > Christchurch shooter made reference to it  as inspiration in his own
  > manifesto.
  >
  > To me, the most worrying tactic of the online  far-right

  Godwin5

  >  is its penchant for
  > making lists of "leftists" in order to  target them. Recently an online
  > publication
  > <https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/intellectual-dark-web-quillette-claire-lehmann-221917>
  > ran an article with a list of journalists they  believed to be connected to
  > the anti-fascist movement
  > <https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php>.
  > The article "was circulated approvingly  on white supremacist forum
  > Stormfront the day after its publication;  a day later, a YouTube user
  > uploaded a video of imagery of mass  shooters intercut with images of the
  > reporters mentioned by Lenihan under the  heading ?Sunset the Media.?"
  >
  > Scary stuff. Turns out words on the internet  aren't just words afterall. I
  > worry that lurkers on this email listserv  may build their own list of
  > targets, i.e., some of us.

  yes, I agree that jerks who overuse the word  "far-right" should rather 
  create their own list somewhere else.

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  -- 
    Patricia Sauthoff
 Postdoctoral Fellow
 AyurYog.org
 Department of History and Classics
 University of Alberta
 Edmonton, Canada           _______________________________________________
 INDOLOGY mailing list
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  -- 
          Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS Researcher, 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax' Department of Linguistics, Philology and Phonetics Junior Research Fellow, Kellogg College University of Oxford 
  Author, The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit                   

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