From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 00:03:55 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 19 05:33:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many of you might be aware. The model proposed by Prof. Dominik Wujastyk in ". In my opinion, most major corporate bodies that are today viewed as for-profit entities should be re-structured as charities, including all medical facilities, hospitals, prisons, schools, universities, religious organizations, orchestras, etc. etc. This sounds utopian. It would be nice to live in a utopia. " Is what is called as trusteeship economics proposed by Mahatma Gandhi. Such philosophies are anchored on a certain personality type of businesspersons. That is why they always remain philosophies oof ideals and wishes. But one hope is that experience is pushing human societies, and humans including business person's towards what we're considered as philosophies of ideals and wishes. New models of management centred around human values and movements like New Public Administration show this. On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 3:57 AM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Krishnaprasad makes a crucial point, I think, when he says that his own > business is structured as a charity or non-profit organization. > > I worked for many years for the Wellcome Trust in London (that owns and > runs the Wellcome Library that has thousands of Indic manuscripts). I have > seen at first hand how a charitable trust can own and run a pharmaceutical > company (the Wellcome Foundation, later sold to Smith-Kline Beecham), and > own major investments (the Wellome Trust owns large tracts of London) and > how all the considerable profits from that can be funnelled into regulated > charitable goals such as education and research. In my opinion, most major > corporate bodies that are today viewed as for-profit entities should be > re-structured as charities, including all medical facilities, hospitals, > prisons, schools, universities, religious organizations, orchestras, etc. > etc. This sounds utopian. It would be nice to live in a utopia. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 03:31, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> I am scared to to tell this, that is, not all the commercial publishing >> houses will be started only for profit or wealth maximization. >> But as already discussed profit making businesses are in plenty. >> >> I have started a publishing house 2 years back, to help the community. I >> was not happy with the "Research institutes" already performing. Because I >> am fed up seeing the bad "Directors" and of whom the tastes are shallow >> and a misconception about what isresearch and what is not. >> But my institute is not "not-for-profit organization" this is because I >> don't have much contacts with academic politicians and hence I will not be >> funded. Another reason being is The Companies Act is very strict and >> complex and bound by the rules to start non-profit organization. >> >> However the profit margin for all the works I do is very nominal. So that >> even a poorest Sanskrit student could be able to afford it. >> >> For instance (I am receiving many mails from Indology list asking the >> details about font availability, hence writing this wouldn't be irrelevant) >> The fonts are developed by the professionals and. And my I am selling >> them for just INR 1150 (One thousand one hundred and fifty) approx 14 USD >> and this payment is for life time and no hidden costs etc. >> (I am not sure whether USD 14 is cheap in all the countries, however in >> India 1150 for 3 font families with 3 weights each, is pretty cheap, >> because Unicode compatible fonts are not sold this cheap in the history) >> >> I will shortly publish my website and post the other projects like >> Raghuvamsa with Charitravardhana commentary, Apte Dictionary apps with zero >> errors, Sanskrit Thesaurus etc. But all these with very nominal price I >> sell them. The reason being for not having high profit motive is that, I >> have different plan for my bread and butter. This publishing is my >> passion. But still I sell them only, I need to reach the break even. >> >> I hope I will be supported by all. >> >> Krishna Prasad. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu 28 Mar, 2019, 1:14 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY, < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Richard, >>> First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is >>> interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that the >>> publication is Open Access. >>> The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: >>> "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author >>> asserts their moral rights in respect of this work,including their >>> right to be identified as author" >>> According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the >>> publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in fact >>> Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; it >>> certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! >>> Best, Jonathan >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica < >>> rmahoney at fastmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Jonathan, >>>> >>>> With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions >>>> and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access >>>> edition to coincide with the initial print release. >>>> >>>> It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the Open >>>> Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited -- >>>> Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. >>>> >>>> The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is >>>> available to borrow or to download: >>>> >>>> Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a >>>> critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. >>>> Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica >>>> Publishers. >>>> >>>> >>>> Borrow: >>>> >>>> http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U >>>> >>>> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >>>> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >>>> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >>>> >>>> >>>> Download: >>>> >>>> http://bit.ly/2FDVSki >>>> >>>> https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay >>>> ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=NLNZ& >>>> tab=catalogue&lang=en_US >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, Richard >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica >>>> >>>> Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ >>>> T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 >>>> r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org >>>> >>>> http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >>>> Reply-to: Jonathan Silk >>>> To: Dan Lusthaus >>>> Cc: Indology >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher >>>> MDPI >>>> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 >>>> >>>> Dear Dan >>>> I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to >>>> point out that what you say is not quite right. How are contributions >>>> to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are >>>> materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like this >>>> that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us have >>>> experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to an >>>> article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to >>>> last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive >>>> assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point out a >>>> weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable >>>> options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. >>>> Jonathan >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY >>> t.indology.info> wrote: >>>> > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally backward. It >>>> > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or plumber >>>> > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we pay >>>> > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we will >>>> > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. >>>> > >>>> > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as >>>> > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online material >>>> > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And the >>>> > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The >>>> > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny >>>> > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a volume, >>>> > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is >>>> > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which don?t >>>> > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as >>>> > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the >>>> > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the >>>> > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on display >>>> > by many, was clearly noticeable. >>>> > >>>> > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already experiencing >>>> > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating >>>> > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a healthy >>>> > solution. >>>> > >>>> > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. >>>> > >>>> > Dan >>>> > >>>> > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY >>> > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has >>>> > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers shouldn?t >>>> > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually pay >>>> > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask scholars >>>> > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model is >>>> > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and >>>> > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific publishers >>>> > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea into >>>> > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now all- >>>> > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it >>>> > > shouldn?t. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> > committee) >>>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> > or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Mon Apr 1 04:35:22 2019 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 19 17:35:22 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1554093322.4769.34.camel@fastmail.com> Dear Dominik &c., To clarify. The National Library of New Zealand, in the legal deposit of an open access digital publication, does not assume the existence of a Creative Commons licence. Such a licence -- rightly in my opinion-- is considered optional: National Library of New Zealand - Legal Deposit - Submitting Publication http://bit.ly/2FEJ7Wy https://natlib.govt.nz/publishers-and-authors/legal-deposit/submitting- your-publication Form -- Publication for Legal Deposit http://bit.ly/2JXXDxY https://natlib.govt.nz/files/legaldeposit/Publication-for-legal-deposit -form.pdf I think that the decision to assign any licence --CC or not-- is best left to the author. Best, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Jonathan Silk Cc: Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] [Archiving Open Access publications] Re: question about a soliciation from publisher MDPI Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 14:56:23 -0600 Dear Jonathan, As far as I understand, you are right, Jonathan. Sean Gaffney's book (as a PDF, I've just downloaded) contains the (C) assertion that you quote. That the author retains the copyright is good and proper. All authors should hold on to their copyright in all circumstances. That stuff about "moral right" etc. doesn't say anything about whether the book is OA or not. All OA books have a copyright-holder too. But to make a book Open Access, the copyright-holder needs to issue a formal license statement that says, more or less, "As copyright holder, I give everyone permission to copy this publication." Sean Gaffney's book does not include such a statement on the (C) page (in fact the opposite, stringent restrictions), and this means that on the evidence of the (C) page, it is not OA. People downloading it will rightly be in doubt about whether they are breaching the author's rights. None of the PDF or online metadata that I see accompanying the book says that the author has issued an OA license. The copyright-holder's license statement doesn't need to give away *all* rights. Various degrees of OA license are listed at creativecommons.org, an organization that has given a lot of thought to all this stuff. To sum up: the author is the first copyright-holder and therefore retains the right to control copying of their work. The author, qua copyright-holder, is the only person who may issue a license giving people freedoms to do other things, like freely copying. Thus an OA publication should make two things clear. 1. There is a copyright- holder, 2. That person has issued an appropriate OA license. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk, Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, Department of History and Classics, University of Alberta, Canada. South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 01:44, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Richard, > First, I'm sure all are grateful for this source, and this avenue is > interesting. But I do wonder about something, since you state that > the publication is Open Access. > The copyright notice nevertheless is the conventional: > "? Copyright 2018 Sean D. Gaffney. All rights reserved.The Author > asserts their moral rights in respect of this work,including their > right to be identified as author" > According to my understanding, "all rights reserved" means that the > publication, despite having been posted for free download, is not in > fact Open Access. But perhaps after all I am quite wrong about this; > it certainly would be neither the first nor the last time! > Best, Jonathan > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:39 AM Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica > wrote: > > Dear Jonathan, > > > > With the agreement of authors and editors, all monographs, editions > > and proceedings that I publish will be available in an Open Access > > edition to coincide with the initial print release. > > > > It is relatively easy to ensure the long term availability of the > > Open > > Access edition. Both physical and electronic copies are deposited > > -- > > Legal Deposit-- with the National Library of New Zealand. > > > > The upshot, for example, is that this recently published edition is > > available to borrow or to download: > > > > Gaffney, Sean (2018) sKyes pa rabs kyi gle? g?i (J?takanid?na): a > > critical edition based on six editions of the Tibetan bKa' 'gyur. > > Indica et Buddhica J?takanid?na, v. 1. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica > > Publishers. > > > > > > Borrow: > > > > http://bit.ly/2Ywyg9U > > > > https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldis > > play > > ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447700002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=N > > LNZ& > > tab=catalogue&lang=en_US > > > > Download: > > > > http://bit.ly/2FDVSki > > > > https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldis > > play > > ?docid=NLNZ_ALMA21311447560002836&context=L&vid=NLNZ&search_scope=N > > LNZ& > > tab=catalogue&lang=en_US > > > > > > > > Best, Richard > > > > > > -- > > Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica > > > > Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ > > T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 > > r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org > > > > http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > > Reply-to: Jonathan Silk > > To: Dan Lusthaus > > Cc: Indology > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] question about a soliciation from publisher > > MDPI > > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 01:03:46 +0200 > > > > Dear Dan > > I hope I am not seen as a shill for publishers, but I would like to > > point out that what you say is not quite right. How are > > contributions > > to be found? How is their continued presence to be assured? How are > > materials to be distributed? There are many more questions like > > this > > that your brief explanation omits, but that are vital. All of us > > have > > experienced multiple times a 404 message when following a link to > > an > > article or contribution of interest. If we want our publications to > > last, this is not a viable model. This statement is not a positive > > assertion of what is in fact the optimal model, but it does point > > out a > > weakness in your questioning. I think that there are some viable > > options out there, but it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. > > Jonathan > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > @lis > > t.indology.info> wrote: > > > While on that subject, our entire profession is fiscally > > backward. It > > > is not just in regard to publications. Would a carpenter or > > plumber > > > pay you to come to your house to build or fix something? But we > > pay > > > hefty fees to go to conferences to present our research. Soon we > > will > > > all be paying to publish our work through ?reputable? media. > > > > > > As for publishers, profit is necessary to stay in business, so as > > > hardcopies become increasingly vestigial, and free online > > material > > > increasingly available, who is the profit going to come from? And > > the > > > ?free? part of online access is soon to disappear as well. The > > > profit, of course, goes to the publishers. Royalties are a tiny > > > percentage of what the book makes. The cost of producing a > > volume, > > > which, once typeset (and some of us end up doing camera-ready) is > > > just the cost of paper, ink, and delivery. E-versions, which > > don?t > > > even cost that ? just server space ? are now the same price as > > > hardcopy. At the recent AAS (Association of Asian Studies) the > > > decrease in the number of publishers displaying wares, and the > > > smaller booths rented by them, and the fewer actual items on > > display > > > by many, was clearly noticeable. > > > > > > Shifting costs to our institutions, which are already > > experiencing > > > financial stresses which they pretend to solve by eliminating > > > departments of Sanskrit, Religious Studies, etc., is not a > > healthy > > > solution. > > > > > > The model is changing, and we are mostly complacent so far. > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > > > > > logy at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > > > > > > It?s really interesting that in this discussion none of us has > > > > actually pointed out that not only scientific publishers > > shouldn?t > > > > ask authors to pay a fee for publication, they should actually > > pay > > > > us for the work we?ve done. If scientific publishers ask > > scholars > > > > to pay a fee for publication it means that their business model > > is > > > > wrong in the best-case scenario or they?re criminals, plain and > > > > simple. Maybe the reason for all this is that scientific > > publishers > > > > shouldn?t be run as businesses? I?m just throwing this idea > > into > > > > the arena, since it seems that the business-like model is now > > all- > > > > pervading in every single aspect of human life, even where it > > > > shouldn?t. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > > managing > > > committee) > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > > options > > > or unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > > options > > or unsubscribe) > > From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 1 12:39:38 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 19 05:39:38 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???: ? ? ?????? ? ?? ???? ????????: ???? ??????? When there was neither being nor non-being, Krishna was there all alone. There was no Gokula and no Radha. How could he rejoice all alone? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 22:10:37 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 19 18:10:37 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Date_of_K=C4=81mik=C4=81gama-uttarabh=C4=81ga?= Message-ID: Dear list members, Can anyone give me any information on the date of the K?mik?gama- uttarabh?ga. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 00:52:55 2019 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 09:52:55 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Data of Edgerton's Grammar Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I know that the searchable data of Edgerton?s Buddhist Sanskrit Dictionary are made open on the internet. Does anybody have also the data of his Grammar? What I need is not a PDF but a Word-file with Sanskrit diacritical marks. Dr. Katarzyna Marciniak and I are now making a three-volumed new edition of the Mah?vastu, basing on the 12th/13th century palm-leaf manuscript which retains many Middle Indic elements (Senart?s edition [1882~1897] was made on the basis of much Sanskritised manuscripts, dating from 1800 C.E.!, and he himself Sanskritised far further.). Accordingly, BHSG should be revised, because probably around 70% of the examples in it are quoted from Senart?s edition of the Mah?vastu. We are also planning to compile a glossary and grammar of the Mah?vastu, basing on the new edition in the same line with my work on the Abhisam?c?rik? Dharm?? of the same language and same school, namely Mah?s??ghika-Lokottav?dins ???? PDF is downloadable at the following websites: http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html https://www.academia.edu/14864500/ http://glossaries.dila.edu.tw/glossaries/ADV?locale=en For this purpose, I need data (not PDF) of BHSG. If anybody has input data, please share them with me offline. In this connection, I announce that the third volume of the new edition of the Mah?vastu, ed. by Dr. Marciniak, 635 pp., is just published from our institute (31/March/2019) and its PDF will be uploaded on the website of IRIAB (http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html) by the beginning of May. With best regards, Seishi Karashima -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 07:55:13 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 09:55:13 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 08:19:53 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 10:19:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr Truschke I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest be done to correct the situation. I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for further information, and a proposed way forward. J Silk On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arfalques at cantab.net Tue Apr 2 09:11:07 2019 From: arfalques at cantab.net (=?utf-8?Q?Aleix_Ruiz_Falqu=C3=A9s?=) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 15:41:07 +0630 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Audrey, I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and values > equal opportunities, as well as diversity (http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). > The University lays special emphasis on increasing the number of women in > senior and in academic positions. Given *equal qualifications*, *preference > will be given to female applicants. * So much for non-discrimination. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 09:13:39 2019 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 11:13:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Audrey, In your latest message to the Indology mailing list you stile yourself as a victim of sexism experienced in recent times during your work on the Indology committee. Moreover, you pretend to courageously blow the whistle against the explicit advice of your colleagues who want to keep you silent probably in order to save their reputation. In this situation, it may be of interest to the larger community of colleagues that as a fellow committee member I did not witness a single instance in which, contrary to your claim, you ?met with blanket denials, belittling of ? [your] concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues.? On the contrary, all committee members, irrespective of their ethnicity and sex, always take your concerns seriously and devote as much time to their discussion as possible under the time constrains we all have to face in our daily work. Of course, we there is disagreed. But disagreement is not necessarily an indication of sexism. It may also occur on the (lack of) merit of arguments. Your move to go public with unfounded accusations in order to strengthen you position in the committee is something for which I have very little understanding. It is utterly unfair to your colleagues who spend a lot of time and energy to keep this list running to the best of their abilities. I can?t believe that you are not aware of this. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 2. Apr. 2019 um 10:21 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear Dr Truschke > I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But > I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible > for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest > be done to correct the situation. > I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for > further information, and a proposed way forward. > J Silk > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.skarpeid at uis.no Tue Apr 2 09:28:29 2019 From: jon.skarpeid at uis.no (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 09:28:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but it?s a poor argument. And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? Perhaps one day we will need to change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? Best, Jon Fra: INDOLOGY P? vegne av Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY Sendt: tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 Til: Audrey Truschke Kopi: Indology List Emne: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Audrey, I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: The University pursues a non-discriminatory employment policy and values equal opportunities, as well as diversity (http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants. So much for non-discrimination. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr Tue Apr 2 09:48:50 2019 From: Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr (KORN Agnes) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 09:48:50 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B84628995D@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> Dear colleague, The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses were installed at some point because of (among other things) the appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the legislation was introduced). This number has slightly risen over the last decade, but so far as I can see this is chiefly due to more women available with the necessary qualifications; i.e. in percentage to women with those qualifications, the recruitments of women have not risen. Having been a member of the women?s council at the university of Frankfurt for over 10 years (where, for instance, the faculty of medicine was composed of 80 professors, of which no women (0%)), I can assure you that discrimination continues in spite of all these clauses. Best, Agnes From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 11:11 AM To: Audrey Truschke Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Audrey, I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: The University pursues a non-discriminatory employment policy and values equal opportunities, as well as diversity (http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants. So much for non-discrimination. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arfalques at cantab.net Tue Apr 2 10:29:55 2019 From: arfalques at cantab.net (=?utf-8?Q?Aleix_Ruiz_Falqu=C3=A9s?=) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 16:59:55 +0630 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jon and Agnes, The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in > Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has > nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses > were installed at some point because of (among other things) the > appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the > legislation was introduced). Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the case, then we disagree and that is fine. what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be > given to female applicants?*? The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has to say. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of > relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but > it?s a poor argument. > > > > And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference > will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to > change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* Aleix > Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 > *Til:* Audrey Truschke > *Kopi:* Indology List > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear Audrey, > > > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and > values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( > http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on > increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal > qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > > > All the best, > > Audrey > > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:03:17 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 13:03:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in the context of Indology. However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. Thank you for listening, Joanthan On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Jon and Agnes, > > The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >> legislation was introduced). > > > Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to > not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into > account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as > an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could > be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair > to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may > have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the > case, then we disagree and that is fine. > > what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >> be given to female applicants?*? > > > The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory > employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the > basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. > > Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should > be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on > discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I > personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. > Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has > to say. > > Best wishes, > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >> it?s a poor argument. >> >> >> >> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >> *Kopi:* Indology List >> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear Audrey, >> >> >> >> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >> >> >> >> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on >> increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal >> qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * >> >> >> >> So much for non-discrimination. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> >> Pali Lecturer >> >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > Pali Lecturer > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.skarpeid at uis.no Tue Apr 2 11:17:33 2019 From: jon.skarpeid at uis.no (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 11:17:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a soft tool. But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk?. Best, Jon Fra: Jonathan Silk Sendt: tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 Til: Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s Kopi: Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) Emne: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear All First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in the context of Indology. However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. Thank you for listening, Joanthan On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Jon and Agnes, The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses were installed at some point because of (among other things) the appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the legislation was introduced). Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the case, then we disagree and that is fine. what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says non-discriminatory employment policy. Will you agree that when preference is given on the basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has to say. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY > wrote: ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but it?s a poor argument. And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? Perhaps one day we will need to change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? Best, Jon Fra: INDOLOGY > P? vegne av Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY Sendt: tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 Til: Audrey Truschke > Kopi: Indology List > Emne: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Audrey, I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: The University pursues a non-discriminatory employment policy and values equal opportunities, as well as diversity (http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants. So much for non-discrimination. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 12:11:06 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 14:11:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 1:18 PM Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that > institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public > life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a > soft tool. > > > > But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher > education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply > dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of > that ilk?. > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > > > *Fra:* Jonathan Silk > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 > *Til:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s > *Kopi:* Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List ( > indology at list.indology.info) > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear All > > First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in > the context of Indology. > > However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) > institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no > doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate > about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely > includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently > discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not > include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, > for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to > this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. > > Thank you for listening, > > Joanthan > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Jon and Agnes, > > > > The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in > Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has > nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses > were installed at some point because of (among other things) the > appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the > legislation was introduced). > > > > Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to > not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into > account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as > an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could > be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair > to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may > have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the > case, then we disagree and that is fine. > > > > what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will > be given to female applicants?*? > > > > The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory > employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the > basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. > > > > Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should > be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on > discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I > personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. > Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has > to say. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of > relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but > it?s a poor argument. > > > > And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference > will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to > change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* Aleix > Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 > *Til:* Audrey Truschke > *Kopi:* Indology List > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear Audrey, > > > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and > values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( > http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on > increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal > qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > > > All the best, > > Audrey > > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu Tue Apr 2 12:36:58 2019 From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 12:36:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While Jonathan is correct that this is a list about Indian Studies, I do think that it is very much in the interest of the list to address issues of bias and intimidation that Audrey mentioned. Any field of scholarship is an all hands on deck affair. If we want to reach our full potential, then we cannot afford to have some of us intimidated into not sharing work, opinions, etc. because of things like gender bias. -j Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 7:03 AM To: Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s Cc: Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear All First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in the context of Indology. However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. Thank you for listening, Joanthan On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Jon and Agnes, The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses were installed at some point because of (among other things) the appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the legislation was introduced). Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the case, then we disagree and that is fine. what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says non-discriminatory employment policy. Will you agree that when preference is given on the basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has to say. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY > wrote: ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but it?s a poor argument. And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? Perhaps one day we will need to change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? Best, Jon Fra: INDOLOGY > P? vegne av Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY Sendt: tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 Til: Audrey Truschke > Kopi: Indology List > Emne: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Audrey, I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: The University pursues a non-discriminatory employment policy and values equal opportunities, as well as diversity (http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants. So much for non-discrimination. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 2 12:39:54 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 05:39:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?? ??????????: ????????? ????: ? ???????????????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? Being one without a second, Krishna had a desire. In order to celebrate Holi, he appeared in multiple forms. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uskokov at uchicago.edu Tue Apr 2 12:44:39 2019 From: uskokov at uchicago.edu (Aleksandar Uskokov) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 08:44:39 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Audrey, Could we have some clarity first as to what the committee actually does? Since the list is not moderated, the workload of the committee is not transparent to me, except for the need to approve membership requests and occasionally intervene when discussions go astray. Why would it be justified to add more female members for the sake of gender parity, rather than having, say, two members (with gender parity) managing the list? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 8:12 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my > account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to > the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often > angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the > list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward > with these sorts of concerns. > > That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to > encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), > refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and > persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and > intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific > case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him > for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around > sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists > and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without > complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about > discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think > this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not > know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the > effects were. > > So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are > aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the > committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender > parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing > committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should > value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further > steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for > adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something > else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at > large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I > resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping > down. But I will not press this particular point. > > Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for > conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, > but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a > legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without > declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and > discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias > and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing > committee going forward. > > Thank you for your time and consideration. > > All the Best, > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 1:18 PM Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that >> institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public >> life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a >> soft tool. >> >> >> >> But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher >> education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply >> dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of >> that ilk?. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> *Fra:* Jonathan Silk >> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 >> *Til:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s >> *Kopi:* Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List ( >> indology at list.indology.info) >> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear All >> >> First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in >> the context of Indology. >> >> However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) >> institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no >> doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate >> about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely >> includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently >> discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not >> include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, >> for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to >> this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. >> >> Thank you for listening, >> >> Joanthan >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Jon and Agnes, >> >> >> >> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >> legislation was introduced). >> >> >> >> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >> >> >> >> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >> be given to female applicants?*? >> >> >> >> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >> >> >> >> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >> to say. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >> it?s a poor argument. >> >> >> >> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >> *Kopi:* Indology List >> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear Audrey, >> >> >> >> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >> >> >> >> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on >> increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal >> qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * >> >> >> >> So much for non-discrimination. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> >> Pali Lecturer >> >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> >> Pali Lecturer >> >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bclough9377 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 12:51:25 2019 From: bclough9377 at gmail.com (Bradley Clough) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 06:51:25 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, For the exact reason that Joe Walser states, I agree that it is very important indeed that we honor Audrey Truschke?s suggestion that the listserv discuss matters of discrimination in our field. Brad Clough The University of Montana On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:37 AM Walser, Joseph via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > While Jonathan is correct that this is a list about Indian Studies, I do > think that it is very much in the interest of the list to address issues of > bias and intimidation that Audrey mentioned. Any field of scholarship is an > all hands on deck affair. If we want to reach our full potential, then we > cannot afford to have some of us intimidated into not sharing work, > opinions, etc. because of things like gender bias. > -j > > Joseph Walser > > Associate Professor > > Department of Religion > > Tufts University > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of > Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 02, 2019 7:03 AM > *To:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s > *Cc:* Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear All > First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in > the context of Indology. > However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) > institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no > doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate > about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely > includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently > discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not > include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, > for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to > this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. > Thank you for listening, > Joanthan > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Jon and Agnes, >> >> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >>> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >>> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >>> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >>> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >>> legislation was introduced). >> >> >> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >> >> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >>> be given to female applicants?*? >> >> >> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >> >> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >> to say. >> >> Best wishes, >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >>> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >>> it?s a poor argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >>> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >>> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >>> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >>> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >>> *Kopi:* Indology List >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Audrey, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >>> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >>> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >>> >>> >>> >>> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >>> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >>> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis >>> on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. >>> Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female >>> applicants. * >>> >>> >>> >>> So much for non-discrimination. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> >>> Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> Pali Lecturer >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 13:22:06 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 09:22:06 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Date_of_K=C4=81mik=C4=81gama-uttarabh=C4=81ga?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to Patricia Sauthoff and Lubomir Ondracka who replied off-line and pointed me to Dominic Goodall's paper ("Rudraga?ik?s: Courtesans in ?iva?s Temple?", probably 12th century. Harry Spier On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:10 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > Can anyone give me any information on the date of the K?mik?gama- > uttarabh?ga. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwn3y at virginia.edu Tue Apr 2 13:35:07 2019 From: jwn3y at virginia.edu (Nemec, John William (jwn3y)) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 13:35:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Audrey Truscke's Email Message Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Audrey Truschke is hardly alone in her feeling that Indology can be unwelcoming to women. I have heard this from quite a number of other colleagues and graduate students on various occasions in private conversation. Indology is a small field, and if a significant proportion of the population feels unwelcome (sometimes or always) in our midst, then it is Indology itself that is harmed. We all know it is often a fight to keep Indological posts open and to place scholars who work in our subject. Another possible concrete step to address these issues, aside from those recommended by Audrey Truschke, might be to collect real data from our membership---numbers of women in Ph.D. programs, etc. If an effort of this kind is undertaken, I would be happy to help (i.e., do some of the work). Sincerely, John ______________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Editor, Religion in Translation Series (Oxford University Press) 323 Gibson Hall / 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 434-924-6716 nemec at virginia.edu https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Tue Apr 2 13:38:24 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 13:38:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List members. Below you may find a mail which I sent on the first of October 2016 to one of the moderators of the list personally (Dominik Wujastik): Dear Dominik, I was rather amazed to find a message on sexual harassment on the list involving Bxxx Wxxx. It is a personal tragedy for the students involved as well for Bxxx Wxxx. But is this information that should have been passed on through the list? I am of the opinion that it is not and am even more amazed to see that the mail was sent by one of the moderators herself. With kind regards, Herman A week later hell broke loose. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: dinsdag 2 april 2019 11:13 Aan: Indology List Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Audrey, In your latest message to the Indology mailing list you stile yourself as a victim of sexism experienced in recent times during your work on the Indology committee. Moreover, you pretend to courageously blow the whistle against the explicit advice of your colleagues who want to keep you silent probably in order to save their reputation. In this situation, it may be of interest to the larger community of colleagues that as a fellow committee member I did not witness a single instance in which, contrary to your claim, you ?met with blanket denials, belittling of ? [your] concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues.? On the contrary, all committee members, irrespective of their ethnicity and sex, always take your concerns seriously and devote as much time to their discussion as possible under the time constrains we all have to face in our daily work. Of course, we there is disagreed. But disagreement is not necessarily an indication of sexism. It may also occur on the (lack of) merit of arguments. Your move to go public with unfounded accusations in order to strengthen you position in the committee is something for which I have very little understanding. It is utterly unfair to your colleagues who spend a lot of time and energy to keep this list running to the best of their abilities. I can?t believe that you are not aware of this. Best, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 2. Apr. 2019 um 10:21 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >: Dear Dr Truschke I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest be done to correct the situation. I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for further information, and a proposed way forward. J Silk On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk Tue Apr 2 13:50:38 2019 From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 13:50:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Audrey, I should start with noting that we do not know each other and have never met or been in communication. So I do not speak on a personal matter. But it is clear time and again that men not acknowledging claims about sexism and bias do contribute to the perpetuation of these issues. I think that, rationally, there would be no other reason than actual experience for you to have got to the point of making this post, as it surely will be a matter of discomfort to make your statement openly. Consequently, I would just like to acknowledge that there seems to me to be no situation in which it is somehow impossible that bias exists and/or should not be talked about. When it comes to the consequences beyond the acknowledgement that you have spoken up as you have for a reason, and an acceptance that we must talk about it, I do see the point that Prof Silk is making, in that it is impossible for anyone on the list who is unaware of the details of the situation to say anything meaningful. We will all be aware that any next step will open a can of worms, as details cannot but hurt people (including yourself, of course). I would support any discussion that asks how we may work in a civilized and supportive manner to proceed with this, and I hope that the tone of what might become an agonized discussion about various interconnected issues is balanced between the personal hurt that will lie at the heart of this matter and the concern for the future of Indology and INDOLOGY that should motivate us. Best wishes, Ram Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Fellow of the British Academy Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion Lancaster University LA1 4YL U.K. ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY Sent: 02 April 2019 08:55:13 To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk Tue Apr 2 13:51:23 2019 From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 13:51:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lacking as we do a listserv to discuss the problems within a listserv, this place becomes perforce the forum. One of the things we are learning from all that has been happening with cases of bias as well as studies of institutional forms of discrimination, is that when an entity is the focus of the accusation, it cannot claim for itself the right to determine that it should not so be the focus. There is an important sense in which what we really want discussed are indological issues, of course. But such discussions can only happen on a forum that is open and enabling; so - even if with a degree of discomfort - we have to discuss meta-indological issues, as it were, here, for want of any other place to go. Let us please bear in mind the trade-offs that will happen with who is uncomfortable with what. All best, Ram Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Fellow of the British Academy Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion Lancaster University LA1 4YL U.K. ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Bradley Clough via INDOLOGY Sent: 02 April 2019 13:51:25 To: Walser, Joseph Cc: Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Colleagues, For the exact reason that Joe Walser states, I agree that it is very important indeed that we honor Audrey Truschke?s suggestion that the listserv discuss matters of discrimination in our field. Brad Clough The University of Montana On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:37 AM Walser, Joseph via INDOLOGY > wrote: While Jonathan is correct that this is a list about Indian Studies, I do think that it is very much in the interest of the list to address issues of bias and intimidation that Audrey mentioned. Any field of scholarship is an all hands on deck affair. If we want to reach our full potential, then we cannot afford to have some of us intimidated into not sharing work, opinions, etc. because of things like gender bias. -j Joseph Walser Associate Professor Department of Religion Tufts University ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 7:03 AM To: Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s Cc: Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear All First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in the context of Indology. However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. Thank you for listening, Joanthan On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Jon and Agnes, The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses were installed at some point because of (among other things) the appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the legislation was introduced). Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the case, then we disagree and that is fine. what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says non-discriminatory employment policy. Will you agree that when preference is given on the basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has to say. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY > wrote: ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but it?s a poor argument. And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants?? Perhaps one day we will need to change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? Best, Jon Fra: INDOLOGY > P? vegne av Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY Sendt: tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 Til: Audrey Truschke > Kopi: Indology List > Emne: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Audrey, I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: The University pursues a non-discriminatory employment policy and values equal opportunities, as well as diversity (http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants. So much for non-discrimination. Best wishes, Aleix On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s Pali Lecturer Head of the Department of Pali and Languages Shan State Buddhist University Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 (+95) 09428757648 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jb92 at soas.ac.uk Tue Apr 2 14:19:56 2019 From: jb92 at soas.ac.uk (Jason Birch) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 15:19:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1A1E85B6-DFBA-4E32-8416-9CD5F87950B2@soas.ac.uk> Dear Indology Committee, It seems that the Indology committee needs a grievance policy whereby a committee member might make a complaint to a mediator, who is not a committee member, is given access to the relevant evidence, has training in mediation and can bring the committee members together to find a resolution. Is such a grievance policy in place? The general issue of gender parity on the committee might be discussed profitably by list members, but I can?t see how list members can mediate (via a group discussion on the forum) particular accusations of sexism by committee members. Best wishes, Jason > On 2 Apr 2019, at 14:50, Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Audrey, > I should start with noting that we do not know each other and have never met or been in communication. So I do not speak on a personal matter. But it is clear time and again that men not acknowledging claims about sexism and bias do contribute to the perpetuation of these issues. I think that, rationally, there would be no other reason than actual experience for you to have got to the point of making this post, as it surely will be a matter of discomfort to make your statement openly. Consequently, I would just like to acknowledge that there seems to me to be no situation in which it is somehow impossible that bias exists and/or should not be talked about. > > When it comes to the consequences beyond the acknowledgement that you have spoken up as you have for a reason, and an acceptance that we must talk about it, I do see the point that Prof Silk is making, in that it is impossible for anyone on the list who is unaware of the details of the situation to say anything meaningful. We will all be aware that any next step will open a can of worms, as details cannot but hurt people (including yourself, of course). I would support any discussion that asks how we may work in a civilized and supportive manner to proceed with this, and I hope that the tone of what might become an agonized discussion about various interconnected issues is balanced between the personal hurt that will lie at the heart of this matter and the concern for the future of Indology and INDOLOGY that should motivate us. > Best wishes, > Ram > > Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad > Fellow of the British Academy > Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy > Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion > Lancaster University LA1 4YL > U.K. > > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > > Sent: 02 April 2019 08:55:13 > To: Indology List > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Apr 2 17:15:39 2019 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 19:15:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Resumption of 'In an oil vat'. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Herman, Thank you for your comments. <> Right, '*attested* only late'. But it would have been in use - not necessarily exactly in the form mentioned by Turner in his CDIAL - centuries earlier, long before the age of the Buddha. Linguistically, the area of his activity must have been far from uniform. It would include not only the Indo-Aryan, but also Dravidian and Austric speaking tribes, among them iron-smelters (called Asurs, Agarias). Cunda, whose Summing up As the keepers of the secrets surrounding the miraculous transformation of iron-ore into - finally - steel, the iron smiths must have had their own tradition - mythology and rituals. pon., 17 gru 2018 o 14:52 Tieken, H.J.H. napisa?(a): > Dear Artur, > Tamil karuma? or karumaka? (*-maka?* is Skt putra) is attested only late, > namely in Kampa?'s R?m?yanam and a traditional dictionary (Pi?kalam). The > word may well be related to karu "black", as in karukku "to darken by heat" > (see DED 1073). The other word for "BLACKsmith", common in (earlier) Ca?kam > poems, is kolla? (see DED 1773), of which the stem kol(l)- is also found in > kollai. The latter is a word for a clearing, a field cleared by burning, > and therefore black. This blackness is an issue in some of the poems about > the so-called kollai fields which I will deal with in an article (about > something else) I happen to be writing at this moment. Note that Takanobu > Takahashi in his article "Is clearing or plowing equal to killing? Tamil > culture and the spread of Jainism in Tamilnadu" (in Bilingual Discourse and > Cross-Cultural Fertilisation: Sanskrit and Tamil in Medieval India. > Pondich?ry 2013, pp.53-67) derives kollai, unnecessarily as I will try to > show, from kol "to kill". > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Artur Karp > via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Verzonden:* maandag 17 december 2018 13:19 > *Aan:* indology > *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Resumption of 'In an oil vat'. > > Dear List Members, > > The Buddha's last sermon (of unknown content) took place in P?v?. > Its recipient was the local blacksmith. His name, *Cunda*, does not sound > Indo?Aryan. The text calls him *kamm?ra*-. Although generally related to > the Skt. *karm?ra - *'blacksmith'*, * the etymology of this term is > uncertain. In his *A Comparative Dictionary of Indo**?**Aryan Languages * (2898) > Turner allows for the possibility of it being a borrowing from the > Dravidian (< was transferred also to KARMAK?RA->>). > > The Buddha and Cunda: a meeting, it seems, of the representatives of > two differing traditions. *S?karamaddava*, the term describing the dish > offered by Cunda to the Buddha, sounds Middle Indo-Aryan. Nevertheless, its > meaning is not clear, it has acquired a number of unconvincing > interpretations. > > If so - could this term have also originally come from the local > non-Indo-Aryan dialect? Was it, in its Pali form, an ad hoc created > vocabulary item? Have there been attempts to find its equivalent in the > local smiths? professional terminology? In the local Dalits' kitchen > vocabulary? > > I am not aware of any. > > > Regards, > > > > ?r., 12 gru 2018 o 22:00 Artur Karp napisa?(a): > >> Dear List Members, >> >> >> A short fragment of the MPSutta (84?85, 90), the one that describes the >> last meal of the Buddha and his fatal illness, mentions one person 23 times >> ? by name and professional designation: *cundo kamm?raputto*, Cunda, the >> blacksmith. >> >> Is the number of these references not significant? Some translators, >> perhaps not wanting to strain the readers? patience, tend to reduce the >> phrase to the personal name only, as if the fact that the Buddha?s host was >> a *smith* was an unimportant detail. *Cunda the blacksmith* becomes >> *Cunda*. >> >> Oskar von Hin?ber is more radical. In his widely read and already >> classical paper (*Cremated like a King: The Funeral of the Buddha within >> the Ancient Indian Cultural Context*, ICPBS 2009) he does not mention >> Cunda, not even once. He refers there to what he calls *?a vessel made >> of iron and filled with sesame oil?;* a type of vat which, according to >> tradition, was used for cremating the bodies of anointed kings ? and, later >> on, of the Buddha himself. However, he does not link the material from >> which such vessels were made with the person of a smith, of an iron?maker >> appearing so conspicuously in the text. The majority of the specialists >> (among them John Strong) write rather about *?an iron oil >> vessel/tub/vat?*. But this is beyond the point. Von Hin?ber?s attention >> is directed at *oil*, not at *iron*. >> >> Apart from iron, the text does not mention any other economically >> important metal - neither copper nor bronze. >> >> In this sense we may say that the MPSutta is dominated by iron ? and >> steel. >> >> Could it be that the narrative relating the marvelous transformation of >> the Buddha?s human body into the everlasting relics was based on the >> procedures of iron smelting and hardening, the latter giving it, finally, >> the potential to create everlasting forms? Could the fact that the burning >> out of the Buddha?s body is stopped by cold water be devoid of any meaning? >> >> These are questions that ? to my mind ? demand answers. They may lead to >> an entirely new approach to research on the world of the MPSutta. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 2 17:19:40 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 17:19:40 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: <1A1E85B6-DFBA-4E32-8416-9CD5F87950B2@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear colleagues (how nice is that this word in English is seemingly gender neutral), Once again I?m amazed at the messages in this list. I believe that we all agree about the fact the equal opportunities for women and minorities are very rare indeed across the world and it is rather obvious to me that our small Indological garden cannot and in fact is not different. What amazes me is that sometimes the whole list seems to be in denial about the fact that Indologists are human beings too and hence biased. We might want to discuss whether equal opportunities for women are something desirable or not at all, because it might be the case that they aren?t and we haven?t realized it yet. I?m all for this type of discussion, but please do not tell me that women are treated like men in the world and on this mailing list, because it?s simply not true. In my opinion, the misogyny in this mailing list is so evident that it doesn?t need to be discussed, it is there as a fact. Also, it doesn?t surprise me at all that it is present even in the committee. On the contrary, this explains why nobody ever takes action when ridiculous messages about the wonderful equal opportunities that women enjoyed in pre-modern India and still enjoy nowadays are shared on the list. Let me be clear, I really hate political correctness, but precisely because of this, I can?t remain silent. Every time that somebody on this list puts forward the argument that the list is here not to discuss issues of contemporary Indian society, it?s not to silence somebody who has just posted a ridiculous message about equal opportunities in ancient India. On the contrary, it is to stop a discussion about the terrible situation of women in ancient or contemporary India. Now, the argument ?this is a scholarly forum to discuss scholarly matters? would be really fine with me if these type of messages would be silenced both ways, but what currently happens on the list is that misogynistic messages are tolerated, while feminist messages are chastised as inappropriate to the forum. This is plain and simple hypocrisy and we should acknowledge it. Then we might be able to start a forum that deals only with scholarly topics. Or maybe not even after this, since on the list the same type of behaviour occurs also when ridiculous messages of virulent right-winged Hindu nationalist propaganda are posted. Hands up all of you who didn?t roll their eyes at some of these messages, but then when a colleague tried to point them out for what they are, i.e. Hindu propaganda, felt compelled to write to him off-list saying ?please stop it, we know it?s propaganda, but let it go and it will steam off?. Well, these messages continue to be sent on the list, they did not stem off. Again, this is all well with me and I truly enjoy this type of internet trolling (yes, this is what some threads on this list become very quickly) and alas, I?ve contributed to this trolling myself occasionally. What I hope though is that we all realise that not only we are scholars, but above all human beings with all our faults. If the committee thinks that this list can become a true forum to discuss only scholarly matters without even the slightest hint of political bias, it should start banning those of us who have a clear political position and bring it to the list. I therefore urge the committee to ban me from the list, as the starting action to enforce this policy. Sorry, I thought that if we open one can of worms, we can open a second one too, just for fun. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Jason Birch [mailto:jb92 at soas.ac.uk] Sent: 02 April 2019 15:20 To: Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Indology Committee, It seems that the Indology committee needs a grievance policy whereby a committee member might make a complaint to a mediator, who is not a committee member, is given access to the relevant evidence, has training in mediation and can bring the committee members together to find a resolution. Is such a grievance policy in place? The general issue of gender parity on the committee might be discussed profitably by list members, but I can?t see how list members can mediate (via a group discussion on the forum) particular accusations of sexism by committee members. Best wishes, Jason On 2 Apr 2019, at 14:50, Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Audrey, I should start with noting that we do not know each other and have never met or been in communication. So I do not speak on a personal matter. But it is clear time and again that men not acknowledging claims about sexism and bias do contribute to the perpetuation of these issues. I think that, rationally, there would be no other reason than actual experience for you to have got to the point of making this post, as it surely will be a matter of discomfort to make your statement openly. Consequently, I would just like to acknowledge that there seems to me to be no situation in which it is somehow impossible that bias exists and/or should not be talked about. When it comes to the consequences beyond the acknowledgement that you have spoken up as you have for a reason, and an acceptance that we must talk about it, I do see the point that Prof Silk is making, in that it is impossible for anyone on the list who is unaware of the details of the situation to say anything meaningful. We will all be aware that any next step will open a can of worms, as details cannot but hurt people (including yourself, of course). I would support any discussion that asks how we may work in a civilized and supportive manner to proceed with this, and I hope that the tone of what might become an agonized discussion about various interconnected issues is balanced between the personal hurt that will lie at the heart of this matter and the concern for the future of Indology and INDOLOGY that should motivate us. Best wishes, Ram Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Fellow of the British Academy Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion Lancaster University LA1 4YL U.K. ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > Sent: 02 April 2019 08:55:13 To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegoloukota at ucla.edu Tue Apr 2 17:43:00 2019 From: diegoloukota at ucla.edu (DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 12:43:00 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, The discussion has been going on for a while, but I felt I had to say something too. I feel very strongly about these matters, and I think that if INDOLOGY works at all like a trade guild of sorts, these are points that we should discuss. To Dr. Truschke, I would like to say thank you for bringing this forward. I would encourage you to reach out with further specifics. I would be happy to be of help in documenting anything untoward that you have experienced. To Dr. Ruiz Falqu?s, that equality and equity are two very different things. Blindly equal treatment for all persons under our current patterns of dominance replicates those very same patterns of dominance. Equity is the push to subvert that by giving preferential treatment to underrepresented groups. The pay gap is an incontrovertible reality, in general and in academia in particular. As a man, if a woman with equal qualifications was preferred to me in a job search, I would be sincerely happy because it would mean that the times are changing. *namaskaromi*, Diego Loukota On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 11:00 AM wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Date of K?mik?gama-uttarabh?ga (Harry Spier) > 2. Data of Edgerton's Grammar (Seishi Karashima) > 3. Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee (Audrey Truschke) > 4. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Jonathan Silk) > 5. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s) > 6. Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY > governing committee (Philipp Maas) > 7. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee (Jon Skarpeid) > 8. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee (KORN Agnes) > 9. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s) > 10. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Jonathan Silk) > 11. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee (Jon Skarpeid) > 12. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Audrey Truschke) > 13. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Walser, Joseph) > 14. Continuing my Krishna verses (Madhav Deshpande) > 15. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Aleksandar Uskokov) > 16. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Bradley Clough) > 17. Re: Date of K?mik?gama-uttarabh?ga (Harry Spier) > 18. Audrey Truscke's Email Message (Nemec, John William (jwn3y)) > 19. Re: Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY > governing committee (Tieken, H.J.H.) > 20. Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) > 21. Fw: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) > 22. Re: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee (Jason Birch) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Harry Spier > To: Indology > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 18:10:37 -0400 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of K?mik?gama-uttarabh?ga > Dear list members, > > Can anyone give me any information on the date of the K?mik?gama- > uttarabh?ga. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Seishi Karashima > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:52:55 +0900 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Data of Edgerton's Grammar > > Dear colleagues, > > I know that the searchable data of Edgerton?s Buddhist Sanskrit Dictionary > are made open on the internet. Does anybody have also the data of his > Grammar? What I need is not a PDF but a Word-file with Sanskrit diacritical > marks. > > > Dr. Katarzyna Marciniak and I are now making a three-volumed new edition > of the Mah?vastu, basing on the 12th/13th century palm-leaf manuscript > which retains many Middle Indic elements (Senart?s edition [1882~1897] was > made on the basis of much Sanskritised manuscripts, dating from 1800 C.E.!, > and he himself Sanskritised far further.). Accordingly, BHSG should be > revised, because probably around 70% of the examples in it are quoted from > Senart?s edition of the Mah?vastu. We are also planning to compile a > glossary and grammar of the Mah?vastu, basing on the new edition in the > same line with my work on the Abhisam?c?rik? Dharm?? of the same language > and same school, namely Mah?s??ghika-Lokottav?dins ???? PDF is downloadable > at the following websites: > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html > > https://www.academia.edu/14864500/ > > http://glossaries.dila.edu.tw/glossaries/ADV?locale=en > > > For this purpose, I need data (not PDF) of BHSG. If anybody has input > data, please share them with me offline. > > > In this connection, I announce that the third volume of the new edition of > the Mah?vastu, ed. by Dr. Marciniak, 635 pp., is just published from our > institute (31/March/2019) and its PDF will be uploaded on the website of > IRIAB (http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/publication/bppb.html) by the beginning > of May. > > > With best regards, > > Seishi Karashima > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Audrey Truschke > To: Indology List > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:55:13 +0200 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jonathan Silk > To: Audrey Truschke > Cc: Indology List > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 10:19:53 +0200 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Dr Truschke > I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But > I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible > for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest > be done to correct the situation. > I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for > further information, and a proposed way forward. > J Silk > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s" > To: Audrey Truschke > Cc: Indology List > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:41:07 +0630 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Audrey, > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on >> increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal >> qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > Pali Lecturer > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Philipp Maas > To: Indology List > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 11:13:39 +0200 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY > governing committee > > Dear Audrey, > > In your latest message to the Indology mailing list you stile yourself as > a victim of sexism experienced in recent times during your work on the > Indology committee. Moreover, you pretend to courageously blow the whistle > against the explicit advice of your colleagues who want to keep you silent > probably in order to save their reputation. > > > > In this situation, it may be of interest to the larger community of > colleagues that as a fellow committee member I did not witness a single > instance in which, contrary to your claim, you ?met with blanket denials, > belittling of ? [your] concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not > a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out > refusals to discuss gender issues.? On the contrary, all committee members, > irrespective of their ethnicity and sex, always take your concerns > seriously and devote as much time to their discussion as possible under the > time constrains we all have to face in our daily work. Of course, we there > is disagreed. But disagreement is not necessarily an indication of sexism. > It may also occur on the (lack of) merit of arguments. > > > > Your move to go public with unfounded accusations in order to strengthen > you position in the committee is something for which I have very little > understanding. It is utterly unfair to your colleagues who spend a lot of > time and energy to keep this list running to the best of their abilities. I > can?t believe that you are not aware of this. > > > > Best, > > > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am Di., 2. Apr. 2019 um 10:21 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> Dear Dr Truschke >> I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But >> I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible >> for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest >> be done to correct the situation. >> I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for >> further information, and a proposed way forward. >> J Silk >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jon Skarpeid > To: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" < > indology at list.indology.info> > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:28:29 +0000 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of > relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but > it?s a poor argument. > > > > And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference > will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to > change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* Aleix > Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 > *Til:* Audrey Truschke > *Kopi:* Indology List > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear Audrey, > > > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and > values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( > http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on > increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal > qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > > > All the best, > > Audrey > > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: KORN Agnes > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:48:50 +0000 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear colleague, > > > > The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in > Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has > nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses > were installed at some point because of (among other things) the > appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the > legislation was introduced). > > > > This number has slightly risen over the last decade, but so far as I can > see this is chiefly due to more women available with the necessary > qualifications; i.e. in percentage to women with those qualifications, the > recruitments of women have not risen. > > > > Having been a member of the women?s council at the university of Frankfurt > for over 10 years (where, for instance, the faculty of medicine was > composed of 80 professors, of which no women (0%)), I can assure you that > discrimination continues in spite of all these clauses. > > > > Best, > > Agnes > > > > > > *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf > Of *Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 02, 2019 11:11 AM > *To:* Audrey Truschke > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear Audrey, > > > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and > values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( > http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on > increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given * > equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > > > All the best, > > Audrey > > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s" > To: Jon Skarpeid > Cc: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" < > indology at list.indology.info> > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:59:55 +0630 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Jon and Agnes, > > The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >> legislation was introduced). > > > Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to > not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into > account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as > an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could > be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair > to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may > have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the > case, then we disagree and that is fine. > > what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >> be given to female applicants?*? > > > The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory > employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the > basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. > > Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should > be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on > discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I > personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. > Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has > to say. > > Best wishes, > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >> it?s a poor argument. >> >> >> >> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >> *Kopi:* Indology List >> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear Audrey, >> >> >> >> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >> >> >> >> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on >> increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal >> qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * >> >> >> >> So much for non-discrimination. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> >> Pali Lecturer >> >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > Pali Lecturer > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jonathan Silk > To: "Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s" > Cc: Jon Skarpeid , "Indology List ( > indology at list.indology.info)" > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:03:17 +0200 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear All > First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in > the context of Indology. > However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) > institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no > doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate > about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely > includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently > discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not > include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, > for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to > this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. > Thank you for listening, > Joanthan > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Jon and Agnes, >> >> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >>> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >>> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >>> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >>> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >>> legislation was introduced). >> >> >> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >> >> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >>> be given to female applicants?*? >> >> >> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >> >> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >> to say. >> >> Best wishes, >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >>> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >>> it?s a poor argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >>> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >>> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >>> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >>> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >>> *Kopi:* Indology List >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Audrey, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >>> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >>> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >>> >>> >>> >>> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >>> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >>> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis >>> on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. >>> Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female >>> applicants. * >>> >>> >>> >>> So much for non-discrimination. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> >>> Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> Pali Lecturer >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jon Skarpeid > To: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" < > indology at list.indology.info> > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 11:17:33 +0000 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that > institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public > life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a > soft tool. > > > > But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher > education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply > dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of > that ilk?. > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > > > *Fra:* Jonathan Silk > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 > *Til:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s > *Kopi:* Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List ( > indology at list.indology.info) > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear All > > First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in > the context of Indology. > > However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) > institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no > doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate > about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely > includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently > discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not > include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, > for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to > this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. > > Thank you for listening, > > Joanthan > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Jon and Agnes, > > > > The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in > Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has > nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses > were installed at some point because of (among other things) the > appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the > legislation was introduced). > > > > Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to > not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into > account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as > an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could > be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair > to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may > have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the > case, then we disagree and that is fine. > > > > what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will > be given to female applicants?*? > > > > The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory > employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the > basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. > > > > Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should > be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on > discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I > personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. > Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has > to say. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of > relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but > it?s a poor argument. > > > > And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference > will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to > change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* Aleix > Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 > *Til:* Audrey Truschke > *Kopi:* Indology List > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear Audrey, > > > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and > values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( > http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on > increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal > qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > > > All the best, > > Audrey > > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Audrey Truschke > To: > Cc: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" < > indology at list.indology.info> > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 14:11:06 +0200 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my > account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to > the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often > angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the > list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward > with these sorts of concerns. > > That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to > encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), > refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and > persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and > intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific > case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him > for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around > sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists > and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without > complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about > discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think > this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not > know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the > effects were. > > So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are > aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the > committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender > parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing > committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should > value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further > steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for > adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something > else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at > large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I > resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping > down. But I will not press this particular point. > > Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for > conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, > but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a > legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without > declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and > discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias > and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing > committee going forward. > > Thank you for your time and consideration. > > All the Best, > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 1:18 PM Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that >> institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public >> life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a >> soft tool. >> >> >> >> But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher >> education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply >> dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of >> that ilk?. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> *Fra:* Jonathan Silk >> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 >> *Til:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s >> *Kopi:* Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List ( >> indology at list.indology.info) >> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear All >> >> First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in >> the context of Indology. >> >> However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) >> institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no >> doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate >> about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely >> includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently >> discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not >> include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, >> for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to >> this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. >> >> Thank you for listening, >> >> Joanthan >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Jon and Agnes, >> >> >> >> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >> legislation was introduced). >> >> >> >> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >> >> >> >> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >> be given to female applicants?*? >> >> >> >> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >> >> >> >> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >> to say. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >> it?s a poor argument. >> >> >> >> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >> *Kopi:* Indology List >> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear Audrey, >> >> >> >> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >> >> >> >> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on >> increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal >> qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * >> >> >> >> So much for non-discrimination. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> >> Pali Lecturer >> >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> >> Pali Lecturer >> >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Walser, Joseph" > To: Jonathan Silk , "Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s" < > arfalques at cantab.net> > Cc: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" < > indology at list.indology.info> > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 12:36:58 +0000 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > While Jonathan is correct that this is a list about Indian Studies, I do > think that it is very much in the interest of the list to address issues of > bias and intimidation that Audrey mentioned. Any field of scholarship is an > all hands on deck affair. If we want to reach our full potential, then we > cannot afford to have some of us intimidated into not sharing work, > opinions, etc. because of things like gender bias. > -j > > Joseph Walser > > Associate Professor > > Department of Religion > > Tufts University > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of > Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 02, 2019 7:03 AM > *To:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s > *Cc:* Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear All > First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in > the context of Indology. > However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) > institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no > doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate > about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely > includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently > discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not > include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, > for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to > this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. > Thank you for listening, > Joanthan > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Jon and Agnes, >> >> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >>> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >>> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >>> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >>> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >>> legislation was introduced). >> >> >> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >> >> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >>> be given to female applicants?*? >> >> >> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >> >> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >> to say. >> >> Best wishes, >> Aleix >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >>> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >>> it?s a poor argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >>> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >>> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >>> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >>> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >>> *Kopi:* Indology List >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Audrey, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >>> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >>> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >>> >>> >>> >>> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >>> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >>> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis >>> on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. >>> Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female >>> applicants. * >>> >>> >>> >>> So much for non-discrimination. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> >>> Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >> Pali Lecturer >> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >> Shan State Buddhist University >> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >> (+95) 09428757648 >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Madhav Deshpande > To: Indology > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 05:39:54 -0700 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses > Continuing my Krishna verses > > ?? ??????????: ????????? ????: ? > ???????????????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? > Being one without a second, Krishna had a desire. In order to celebrate > Holi, he appeared in multiple forms. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Aleksandar Uskokov > To: Audrey Truschke > Cc: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" < > indology at list.indology.info> > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:44:39 -0400 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Audrey, > > Could we have some clarity first as to what the committee actually does? > Since the list is not moderated, the workload of the committee is not > transparent to me, except for the need to approve membership requests and > occasionally intervene when discussions go astray. Why would it be > justified to add more female members for the sake of gender parity, rather > than having, say, two members (with gender parity) managing the list? > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Lector in Sanskrit > > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 8:12 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my >> account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to >> the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often >> angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the >> list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward >> with these sorts of concerns. >> >> That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to >> encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), >> refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and >> persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and >> intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific >> case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him >> for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around >> sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists >> and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without >> complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about >> discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think >> this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not >> know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the >> effects were. >> >> So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are >> aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the >> committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender >> parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing >> committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should >> value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further >> steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for >> adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something >> else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at >> large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I >> resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping >> down. But I will not press this particular point. >> >> Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for >> conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, >> but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a >> legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without >> declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and >> discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias >> and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing >> committee going forward. >> >> Thank you for your time and consideration. >> >> All the Best, >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 1:18 PM Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that >>> institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public >>> life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a >>> soft tool. >>> >>> >>> >>> But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher >>> education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply >>> dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of >>> that ilk?. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* Jonathan Silk >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 >>> *Til:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s >>> *Kopi:* Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List ( >>> indology at list.indology.info) >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear All >>> >>> First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are >>> important--in the context of Indology. >>> >>> However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) >>> institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no >>> doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate >>> about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely >>> includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently >>> discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not >>> include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, >>> for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to >>> this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. >>> >>> Thank you for listening, >>> >>> Joanthan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Jon and Agnes, >>> >>> >>> >>> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >>> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >>> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >>> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >>> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >>> legislation was introduced). >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >>> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >>> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >>> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >>> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >>> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >>> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >>> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >>> >>> >>> >>> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >>> be given to female applicants?*? >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >>> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >>> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >>> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >>> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >>> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >>> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >>> to say. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >>> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >>> it?s a poor argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >>> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >>> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >>> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >>> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >>> *Kopi:* Indology List >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Audrey, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >>> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >>> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >>> >>> >>> >>> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >>> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >>> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis >>> on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. >>> Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female >>> applicants. * >>> >>> >>> >>> So much for non-discrimination. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> >>> Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Bradley Clough > To: "Walser, Joseph" > Cc: "Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s" , "Indology List ( > indology at list.indology.info)" , Jonathan > Silk > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 06:51:25 -0600 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Colleagues, > > For the exact reason that Joe Walser states, I agree that it is very > important indeed that we honor Audrey Truschke?s suggestion that the > listserv discuss matters of discrimination in our field. > > Brad Clough > The University of Montana > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:37 AM Walser, Joseph via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> While Jonathan is correct that this is a list about Indian Studies, I do >> think that it is very much in the interest of the list to address issues of >> bias and intimidation that Audrey mentioned. Any field of scholarship is an >> all hands on deck affair. If we want to reach our full potential, then we >> cannot afford to have some of us intimidated into not sharing work, >> opinions, etc. because of things like gender bias. >> -j >> >> Joseph Walser >> >> Associate Professor >> >> Department of Religion >> >> Tufts University >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of >> Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 02, 2019 7:03 AM >> *To:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s >> *Cc:* Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> Dear All >> First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in >> the context of Indology. >> However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) >> institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no >> doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate >> about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely >> includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently >> discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not >> include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, >> for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to >> this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. >> Thank you for listening, >> Joanthan >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jon and Agnes, >>> >>> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >>>> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >>>> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >>>> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >>>> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >>>> legislation was introduced). >>> >>> >>> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >>> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >>> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >>> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >>> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >>> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >>> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >>> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >>> >>> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >>>> be given to female applicants?*? >>> >>> >>> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >>> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >>> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >>> >>> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >>> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >>> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >>> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >>> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >>> to say. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >>>> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >>>> it?s a poor argument. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >>>> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >>>> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >>>> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >>>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >>>> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >>>> *Kopi:* Indology List >>>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Audrey, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I >>>> think I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the >>>> jobs I applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >>>> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >>>> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis >>>> on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. >>>> Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female >>>> applicants. * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So much for non-discrimination. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Aleix >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>>> explicit instructions here. >>>> >>>> >>>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>>> list a more equitable place. >>>> >>>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Audrey >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Audrey Truschke >>>> >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>> Department of History >>>> Rutgers University-Newark >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>>> >>>> Pali Lecturer >>>> >>>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>>> >>>> Shan State Buddhist University >>>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>>> (+95) 09428757648 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> Pali Lecturer >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Harry Spier > To: Indology > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:22:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Date of K?mik?gama-uttarabh?ga > Thank you to Patricia Sauthoff and Lubomir Ondracka who replied off-line > and pointed me to Dominic Goodall's paper ("Rudraga?ik?s: Courtesans in > ?iva?s Temple?", probably 12th century. > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:10 PM Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> >> Can anyone give me any information on the date of the K?mik?gama- >> uttarabh?ga. >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Nemec, John William (jwn3y)" > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:35:07 +0000 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Audrey Truscke's Email Message > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Audrey Truschke is hardly alone in her feeling that Indology can be > unwelcoming to women. I have heard this from quite a number of other > colleagues and graduate students on various occasions in private > conversation. > > > > Indology is a small field, and if a significant proportion of the > population feels unwelcome (sometimes or always) in our midst, then it is > Indology itself that is harmed. We all know it is often a fight to keep > Indological posts open and to place scholars who work in our subject. > > > > Another possible concrete step to address these issues, aside from those > recommended by Audrey Truschke, might be to collect real data from our > membership---numbers of women in Ph.D. programs, etc. If an effort of this > kind is undertaken, I would be happy to help (i.e., do some of the work). > > > > Sincerely, > > John > > > ______________________________ > John Nemec, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, Indian Religions and South Asian Studies > Editor, Religion in Translation Series (Oxford University Press) > 323 Gibson Hall / 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue > Department of Religious Studies > University of Virginia > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > 434-924-6716 > nemec at virginia.edu > https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Tieken, H.J.H." > To: Philipp Maas , Indology List < > indology at list.indology.info> > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:38:24 +0000 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on > INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear List members. > Below you may find a mail which I sent on the first of October 2016 to one > of the moderators of the list personally (Dominik Wujastik): > > Dear Dominik, I was rather amazed to find a message on sexual harassment > on the list involving Bxxx Wxxx. It is a personal tragedy for the students > involved as well for Bxxx Wxxx. But is this information that should have > been passed on through the list? I am of the opinion that it is not and am > even more amazed to see that the mail was sent by one of the moderators > herself. With kind regards, Herman > > > A week later hell broke loose. > > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Philipp Maas > via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Verzonden:* dinsdag 2 april 2019 11:13 > *Aan:* Indology List > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on > INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Audrey, > > In your latest message to the Indology mailing list you stile yourself as > a victim of sexism experienced in recent times during your work on the > Indology committee. Moreover, you pretend to courageously blow the whistle > against the explicit advice of your colleagues who want to keep you silent > probably in order to save their reputation. > > > > In this situation, it may be of interest to the larger community of > colleagues that as a fellow committee member I did not witness a single > instance in which, contrary to your claim, you ?met with blanket denials, > belittling of ? [your] concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not > a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out > refusals to discuss gender issues.? On the contrary, all committee members, > irrespective of their ethnicity and sex, always take your concerns > seriously and devote as much time to their discussion as possible under the > time constrains we all have to face in our daily work. Of course, we there > is disagreed. But disagreement is not necessarily an indication of sexism. > It may also occur on the (lack of) merit of arguments. > > > > Your move to go public with unfounded accusations in order to strengthen > you position in the committee is something for which I have very little > understanding. It is utterly unfair to your colleagues who spend a lot of > time and energy to keep this list running to the best of their abilities. I > can?t believe that you are not aware of this. > > > > Best, > > > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am Di., 2. Apr. 2019 um 10:21 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> Dear Dr Truschke >> I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But >> I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible >> for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest >> be done to correct the situation. >> I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for >> further information, and a proposed way forward. >> J Silk >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi" > To: Indology List > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:50:38 +0000 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Audrey, > > I should start with noting that we do not know each other and have never > met or been in communication. So I do not speak on a personal matter. But > it is clear time and again that men not acknowledging claims about sexism > and bias do contribute to the perpetuation of these issues. I think that, > rationally, there would be no other reason than actual experience for you > to have got to the point of making this post, as it surely will be a matter > of discomfort to make your statement openly. Consequently, I would just > like to acknowledge that there seems to me to be no situation in which it > is somehow impossible that bias exists and/or should not be talked about. > > > When it comes to the consequences beyond the acknowledgement that you have > spoken up as you have for a reason, and an acceptance that we must talk > about it, I do see the point that Prof Silk is making, in that it is > impossible for anyone on the list who is unaware of the details of > the situation to say anything meaningful. We will all be aware that any > next step will open a can of worms, as details cannot but hurt people > (including yourself, of course). I would support any discussion that asks > how we may work in a civilized and supportive manner to proceed with this, > and I hope that the tone of what might become an agonized discussion about > various interconnected issues is balanced between the personal hurt that > will lie at the heart of this matter and the concern for the future > of Indology and INDOLOGY that should motivate us. > > Best wishes, > > Ram > > > Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad > Fellow of the British Academy > Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy > Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion > Lancaster University LA1 4YL > U.K. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* 02 April 2019 08:55:13 > *To:* Indology List > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi" > To: Indology List > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:51:23 +0000 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > > Lacking as we do a listserv to discuss the problems within a listserv, > this place becomes perforce the forum. One of the things we are learning > from all that has been happening with cases of bias as well as studies of > institutional forms of discrimination, is that when an entity is the focus > of the accusation, it cannot claim for itself the right to determine > that it should not so be the focus. There is an important sense in which > what we really want discussed are indological issues, of course. But such > discussions can only happen on a forum that is open and enabling; so - even > if with a degree of discomfort - we have to discuss meta-indological > issues, as it were, here, for want of any other place to go. Let us please > bear in mind the trade-offs that will happen with who is uncomfortable with > what. > > All best, > > Ram > > > Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad > Fellow of the British Academy > Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy > Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion > Lancaster University LA1 4YL > U.K. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Bradley Clough via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* 02 April 2019 13:51:25 > *To:* Walser, Joseph > *Cc:* Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Colleagues, > > For the exact reason that Joe Walser states, I agree that it is very > important indeed that we honor Audrey Truschke?s suggestion that the > listserv discuss matters of discrimination in our field. > > Brad Clough > The University of Montana > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:37 AM Walser, Joseph via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > While Jonathan is correct that this is a list about Indian Studies, I do > think that it is very much in the interest of the list to address issues of > bias and intimidation that Audrey mentioned. Any field of scholarship is an > all hands on deck affair. If we want to reach our full potential, then we > cannot afford to have some of us intimidated into not sharing work, > opinions, etc. because of things like gender bias. > -j > > Joseph Walser > > Associate Professor > > Department of Religion > > Tufts University > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of > Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 02, 2019 7:03 AM > *To:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s > *Cc:* Indology List (indology at list.indology.info) > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear All > First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are important--in > the context of Indology. > However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) > institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no > doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate > about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely > includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently > discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not > include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, > for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to > this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. > Thank you for listening, > Joanthan > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Jon and Agnes, > > The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in > Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has > nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses > were installed at some point because of (among other things) the > appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the > legislation was introduced). > > > Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities to > not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into > account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as > an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could > be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair > to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may > have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the > case, then we disagree and that is fine. > > what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will > be given to female applicants?*? > > > The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory > employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the > basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. > > Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should > be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on > discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I > personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. > Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has > to say. > > Best wishes, > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of > relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but > it?s a poor argument. > > > > And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference > will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to > change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? > > > > Best, > > Jon > > > > *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* Aleix > Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY > *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 > *Til:* Audrey Truschke > *Kopi:* Indology List > *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear Audrey, > > > > I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think I > know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I > applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: > > > > The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and > values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( > http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis on > increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given *equal > qualifications*, *preference will be given to female applicants. * > > > > So much for non-discrimination. > > > > Best wishes, > > Aleix > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > > > All the best, > > Audrey > > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > > Pali Lecturer > > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s > Pali Lecturer > Head of the Department of Pali and Languages > Shan State Buddhist University > Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 > (+95) 09428757648 > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jason Birch > To: "Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi" > Cc: Indology List > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:19:56 +0100 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > Dear Indology Committee, > > It seems that the Indology committee needs a grievance policy whereby a > committee member might make a complaint to a mediator, who is not a > committee member, is given access to the relevant evidence, has training in > mediation and can bring the committee members together to find a > resolution. Is such a grievance policy in place? > > The general issue of gender parity on the committee might be discussed > profitably by list members, but I can?t see how list members can mediate > (via a group discussion on the forum) particular accusations of sexism by > committee members. > > Best wishes, > > Jason > > On 2 Apr 2019, at 14:50, Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Audrey, > I should start with noting that we do not know each other and have never > met or been in communication. So I do not speak on a personal matter. But > it is clear time and again that men not acknowledging claims about sexism > and bias do contribute to the perpetuation of these issues. I think that, > rationally, there would be no other reason than actual experience for you > to have got to the point of making this post, as it surely will be a matter > of discomfort to make your statement openly. Consequently, I would just > like to acknowledge that there seems to me to be no situation in which it > is somehow impossible that bias exists and/or should not be talked about. > > When it comes to the consequences beyond the acknowledgement that you have > spoken up as you have for a reason, and an acceptance that we must talk > about it, I do see the point that Prof Silk is making, in that it is > impossible for anyone on the list who is unaware of the details of > the situation to say anything meaningful. We will all be aware that any > next step will open a can of worms, as details cannot but hurt people > (including yourself, of course). I would support any discussion that asks > how we may work in a civilized and supportive manner to proceed with this, > and I hope that the tone of what might become an agonized discussion about > various interconnected issues is balanced between the personal hurt that > will lie at the heart of this matter and the concern for the future > of Indology and INDOLOGY that should motivate us. > Best wishes, > Ram > > Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad > Fellow of the British Academy > Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy > Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion > Lancaster University LA1 4YL > U.K. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* 02 April 2019 08:55:13 > *To:* Indology List > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 18:48:52 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 19:48:52 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, I noticed more than few times a misogynistic refusal to discuss, through the list, of gender troubles within academia and India as well. Discussions on gender discriminations are necessary if we want to start contrasting sexism in academia. Otherwise, we can go on ignoring the issue. Best, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD in Asia and Africa Studies (South Asia Section) Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Il mar 2 apr 2019, 18:52 Aleksandar Uskokov via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > Dear Audrey, > > Could we have some clarity first as to what the committee actually does? > Since the list is not moderated, the workload of the committee is not > transparent to me, except for the need to approve membership requests and > occasionally intervene when discussions go astray. Why would it be > justified to add more female members for the sake of gender parity, rather > than having, say, two members (with gender parity) managing the list? > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Lector in Sanskrit > > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 8:12 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my >> account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to >> the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often >> angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the >> list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward >> with these sorts of concerns. >> >> That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to >> encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), >> refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and >> persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and >> intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific >> case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him >> for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around >> sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists >> and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without >> complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about >> discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think >> this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not >> know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the >> effects were. >> >> So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are >> aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the >> committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender >> parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing >> committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should >> value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further >> steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for >> adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something >> else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at >> large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I >> resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping >> down. But I will not press this particular point. >> >> Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for >> conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, >> but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a >> legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without >> declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and >> discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias >> and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing >> committee going forward. >> >> Thank you for your time and consideration. >> >> All the Best, >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 1:18 PM Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> ?Given equal qualifications?, I do not find it a discriminatory that >>> institutions prefer gender, minority, or whatever. All branches of public >>> life should (somehow) reflect the population. ?Equal qualifications? is a >>> soft tool. >>> >>> >>> >>> But I agree with Jonathan, we should leave German or Austrian higher >>> education. However, if sexism is a reality at Indology, we can?t simply >>> dismiss the debate by referring to the ?Sanskrit conference, and matters of >>> that ilk?. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* Jonathan Silk >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 13:03 >>> *Til:* Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s >>> *Kopi:* Jon Skarpeid ; Indology List ( >>> indology at list.indology.info) >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear All >>> >>> First, I want to clarify that I think these discussions are >>> important--in the context of Indology. >>> >>> However, this list is not, in my opinion, the place to debate (etc) >>> institutional forms of discrimination, fundamentally important as they no >>> doubt are. There are so many things which so many of us are passionate >>> about, but this list is about Indian Studies, and while that surely >>> includes the conduct of the management of the list itself, the recently >>> discussed Sanskrit conference, and matters of that ilk, it does not >>> include, I would maintain, German or Austrian higher education as a whole, >>> for example. So my plea to all of us is to focus on the topics relevant to >>> this list here, and find other fora for other conversations. >>> >>> Thank you for listening, >>> >>> Joanthan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Jon and Agnes, >>> >>> >>> >>> The clause you cite automatically appears in any job advertisement in >>> Austria and Germany in the public sector. It is a legal requirement and has >>> nothing to do with the university or department in question. Such clauses >>> were installed at some point because of (among other things) the >>> appallingly low number of female professors (some 14% or so at the time the >>> legislation was introduced). >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for the comment. I apologise, I didn't know that universities >>> to not follow the rules. I thought that this clause was actually taken into >>> account. The statement is discriminatory against men, nonetheless, and as >>> an applicant, I wondered if it was really worth trying. Again, that could >>> be the whole purpose of the clause. I don?t know. I just felt it was unfair >>> to men, not to men as a social class, but to particular individuals who may >>> have nothing to do with structural sexism. If you think that?s not the >>> case, then we disagree and that is fine. >>> >>> >>> >>> what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will >>> be given to female applicants?*? >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem is not in this line, but in the previous one, where it says *non-discriminatory >>> employment policy*. Will you agree that when preference is given on the >>> basis of gender, this is a discriminatory statement? Perhaps I got it wrong. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jon, when I say that a thousand things can be changed I mean they should >>> be, and I think the debate is positive, including the debate on >>> discriminatory clauses. I did not mean anything against Audrey, whom I >>> personally know I respect very much, as a friend and as a scholar. >>> Apologies if anyone felt offended. I am looking forward to what Audrey has >>> to say. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jon Skarpeid via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> ?A thousand things that can be improved? is the argument of >>> relativization. Any wishes for change can be met with relativization, but >>> it?s a poor argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> And dear Aleix, what?s the problem with ?Given *equal qualifications*, *preference >>> will be given to female applicants?*? Perhaps one day we will need to >>> change ?female? with ?male?. Who knows? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> *Fra:* INDOLOGY *P? vegne av* >>> Aleix Ruiz Falqu?s via INDOLOGY >>> *Sendt:* tirsdag 2. april 2019 11:11 >>> *Til:* Audrey Truschke >>> *Kopi:* Indology List >>> *Emne:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Audrey, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are a thousand things that can be improved. I think >>> I know how you feel. Please see the following clause in one of the jobs I >>> applied for, in Vienna, realted to Indology: >>> >>> >>> >>> The University pursues *a non-discriminatory employment policy* and >>> values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( >>> http://diversity.univie.ac.at/). The University lays special emphasis >>> on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. >>> Given *equal qualifications*, *preference will be given to female >>> applicants. * >>> >>> >>> >>> So much for non-discrimination. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Aleix >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 14:25, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> >>> Assistant Professor >>> >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Aleix Ruiz-Falqu?s >>> >>> Pali Lecturer >>> >>> Head of the Department of Pali and Languages >>> >>> Shan State Buddhist University >>> Phaya Phyu, Taunggyi, Myanmar 140101 >>> (+95) 09428757648 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:13:50 2019 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 21:13:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is a great deal to say and think about all this. But I will keep my remarks brief: 1. Given the current membership of the Indology group (at least measured in terms of those who reply), not unlike the United States Senate (to name but one institution), men are here making decisions that deeply affect women. 2. Related to this, how many men and how many women are members of Indology? (By the way, I can think of at least four excellent Sanskritists, who are women, who I am fairly certain are not members of this forum; why have more women not joined?) 3. Audrey's note has generated more discussion than I remember seeing on this list in a very long time. Perhaps we should look at the matters we tend to discuss here (which these days is largely confined to "Does anyone have an electronic copy of...?), and begin thinking about the broader issues that affect us as scholars (I would put Audrey's charge prominently in this category). Herman Tull On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauthoff at ualberta.ca Tue Apr 2 20:05:00 2019 From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 14:05:00 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list, While I cannot speak to Dr. Truschke's experience with the list, I find much of this discussion extremely disheartening. In fact, on the one hand, I hesitate to say anything because I am at the beginning of my career and must keep in mind the long memories of hiring committees, publishers, and others. On the other hand, this is why I feel I must say something. I hope to improve the field of Indology not just as an academic but also as a human being. First, the private email shared below to the list moderator is especially frustrating. Colleagues announce books, awards, etc. on this list all the time. We ask questions about resources and on behalf of our students. Occasionally, but less often, we discuss controversial topics and controversies in our field. Why would we want to avoid discussing news stories about accusations against one of our colleagues? The message regarding the sexual harassment by Bxxx Wxxx (as stated to protect the identity of someone against whom there were widely reported accusations of sexual impropriety) is helpful and appropriate for many of us on this list. Such accusations against Neil deGrasse Tyson are certainly well-beyond the scope of this list. However, when those accusations impact departments close to our work and individuals who we might know, they are incredibly important for us to discuss. First and foremost, we owe it to our community, our students, and others to ensure safety within the university setting. When an academic in our field has been accused of impropriety within the university, it may be difficult for us to reframe that individual or to reconsider our own work in relation to that person. Being dismissed for sexual harassment against graduate students is something I think we should talk MORE about, not less. These may not seem like academic issues to some but for many of us, navigating a male-dominated profession, they are absolutely academic. Women create whisper networks in which we alert one another to these behaviors, which are often ignored by administrators. We do this to remain safe, to alert other women to predators who may take advantage of us, harm our careers if we turn them down, etc. The case of Dr. Wentworth was widely reported by The Guardian and others. By the time it made it to this list, it was well beyond the whisper network. Creating a space where we can alert one another to these cases benefits us all. The alternative is something like The Shitty Media Men list that reverberated through the media just a few years ago. I, for one, would prefer transparency so that all members of our community and field remain safe. Second, some of the responses to Dr. Truschke's renewed efforts to discuss these issues are aggressive and dismissive. Certainly, asking for more concrete examples in order to understand more fully is exactly what one might expect from scholars. Simply dismissing them with anger and annoyance does work to silence such discussion but not to improve the place of women or other marginalized members of the academy. If any member of our community feels under attack, are we not here to support one another? If the list itself is the source of that attack, should we not consider the actions that led to those feelings? Finally, this is 2019 and I'm sure many of us feel that we have moved beyond sexist language and behaviors. I assure you, we have not. Every year when it comes time to hire, women watch men less qualified than them land their dream jobs. We receive harsher criticism from our students on our course evaluations than our male counterparts, and we sometimes are approached/touched/spoken to by men in ways that make us uncomfortable. We should be able to discuss these matters openly and not just in female circles. Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. These things happen far more often than most of us would like to acknowledge. When they impact us and members of our field and our list, we may not agree on the level of inappropriateness, but we owe it to one another to hear each other out and discuss things like the professional academics that we are. Thank you to John Nemec for his offer to quantify some of these complaints and issues. I have spoken to Dr. Nemec personally about some of the hurdles that women face in this field. It is not always easy to acknowledge that our own experience is not the same for others, but if we cannot do that within the relative safety of an email list, how can we accurately convey the variety of religious experiences about which we study and teach? Patricia Sauthoff On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 7:39 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear List members. > Below you may find a mail which I sent on the first of October 2016 to one > of the moderators of the list personally (Dominik Wujastik): > > Dear Dominik, I was rather amazed to find a message on sexual harassment > on the list involving Bxxx Wxxx. It is a personal tragedy for the students > involved as well for Bxxx Wxxx. But is this information that should have > been passed on through the list? I am of the opinion that it is not and am > even more amazed to see that the mail was sent by one of the moderators > herself. With kind regards, Herman > > > A week later hell broke loose. > > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Philipp Maas > via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Verzonden:* dinsdag 2 april 2019 11:13 > *Aan:* Indology List > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on > INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Audrey, > > In your latest message to the Indology mailing list you stile yourself as > a victim of sexism experienced in recent times during your work on the > Indology committee. Moreover, you pretend to courageously blow the whistle > against the explicit advice of your colleagues who want to keep you silent > probably in order to save their reputation. > > > > In this situation, it may be of interest to the larger community of > colleagues that as a fellow committee member I did not witness a single > instance in which, contrary to your claim, you ?met with blanket denials, > belittling of ? [your] concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not > a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out > refusals to discuss gender issues.? On the contrary, all committee members, > irrespective of their ethnicity and sex, always take your concerns > seriously and devote as much time to their discussion as possible under the > time constrains we all have to face in our daily work. Of course, we there > is disagreed. But disagreement is not necessarily an indication of sexism. > It may also occur on the (lack of) merit of arguments. > > > > Your move to go public with unfounded accusations in order to strengthen > you position in the committee is something for which I have very little > understanding. It is utterly unfair to your colleagues who spend a lot of > time and energy to keep this list running to the best of their abilities. I > can?t believe that you are not aware of this. > > > > Best, > > > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am Di., 2. Apr. 2019 um 10:21 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> Dear Dr Truschke >> I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But >> I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible >> for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest >> be done to correct the situation. >> I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for >> further information, and a proposed way forward. >> J Silk >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Patricia Sauthoff Post-doctoral researcher AyurYog.org Department of History and Classics University of Alberta Edmonton, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 21:11:38 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 19 22:11:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Tieken, I strongly disagree with you. First, sexual harassment is a very common behaviour in academia and we need to stop it and not to cover it. Second, sexual harassment is a tragedy for who has been subjected to unwanted attentions, and not for who has acted as an abuser. Best regards, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section) Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Il mar 2 apr 2019, 14:39 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > Dear List members. > Below you may find a mail which I sent on the first of October 2016 to one > of the moderators of the list personally (Dominik Wujastik): > > Dear Dominik, I was rather amazed to find a message on sexual harassment > on the list involving Bxxx Wxxx. It is a personal tragedy for the students > involved as well for Bxxx Wxxx. But is this information that should have > been passed on through the list? I am of the opinion that it is not and am > even more amazed to see that the mail was sent by one of the moderators > herself. With kind regards, Herman > > > A week later hell broke loose. > > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Philipp Maas > via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Verzonden:* dinsdag 2 april 2019 11:13 > *Aan:* Indology List > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Unfounded accusations of Sexism and Bias on > INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Audrey, > > In your latest message to the Indology mailing list you stile yourself as > a victim of sexism experienced in recent times during your work on the > Indology committee. Moreover, you pretend to courageously blow the whistle > against the explicit advice of your colleagues who want to keep you silent > probably in order to save their reputation. > > > > In this situation, it may be of interest to the larger community of > colleagues that as a fellow committee member I did not witness a single > instance in which, contrary to your claim, you ?met with blanket denials, > belittling of ? [your] concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not > a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out > refusals to discuss gender issues.? On the contrary, all committee members, > irrespective of their ethnicity and sex, always take your concerns > seriously and devote as much time to their discussion as possible under the > time constrains we all have to face in our daily work. Of course, we there > is disagreed. But disagreement is not necessarily an indication of sexism. > It may also occur on the (lack of) merit of arguments. > > > > Your move to go public with unfounded accusations in order to strengthen > you position in the committee is something for which I have very little > understanding. It is utterly unfair to your colleagues who spend a lot of > time and energy to keep this list running to the best of their abilities. I > can?t believe that you are not aware of this. > > > > Best, > > > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am Di., 2. Apr. 2019 um 10:21 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> Dear Dr Truschke >> I am sure that there are many members of this list who are concerned. But >> I confess that with the (lack of) information you provide, it is impossible >> for me either to understand what is actually going on, or what you suggest >> be done to correct the situation. >> I do not mean this in any way to be dismissive; it is a request for >> further information, and a proposed way forward. >> J Silk >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 06:07:58 2019 From: c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com (Malcolm Keating) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 14:07:58 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- *Malcolm Keating* Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said,?I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY).?I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 3 13:25:06 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 06:25:06 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ????????? ??? ? ???? ???: ? ?????????? ??????? ????? ???? ???: ??????? How does Krishna, one without a second, rejoice with anyone else? Creating many different forms, Krishna rejoices with Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 3 14:39:39 2019 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 14:39:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1031471342.290966.1554302379266@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Colleagues, I would like to add my voice to second what Malcolm, Herman, Ramprasad, John, and others have said. ?Scholars in our field, or any field, being subjected to sexism and chauvinism of any kind is unacceptable. ?We need to stand together against such behavior, as well as, for those of us who are male, reflecting on ways in which we may have been complicit, even if inadvertently, in creating and sustaining an environment in which some feel they can behave in this way toward female colleagues. All the best,Jeff Dr. Jeffery D. Long Professor of Religion and Asian Studies Elizabethtown CollegeElizabethtown, PA https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong Series Editor,?Explorations in Indic Traditions: Theological, Ethical, and PhilosophicalLexington Books "One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." ?(Holy Mother Sarada Devi) "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan) On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 2:08:56 AM EDT, Malcolm Keating via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog:https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ | Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee | | From: Audrey Truschke | | Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm | | CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" | Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said,?I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY).?I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark | Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee | | From: Audrey Truschke | | Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm | _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at Wed Apr 3 15:55:05 2019 From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 17:55:05 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: ECSAS 2020 Vienna, Call for Panels In-Reply-To: <4c16d749-cd56-0fdb-d985-f9d63ab800bd@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <8b7fc65f-f9ff-50cc-30a4-aa6a4f0bb473@oeaw.ac.at> For your information. With best wishes, Birgit Kellner -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht -------- Betreff: ECSAS 2020 Vienna, Call for Panels Datum: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 17:15:47 +0200 Von: CIRDIS Office An: office.cirdis at univie.ac.at Dear colleagues, dear Ladies and Gentlemen! We would like to bring to your attention the 26th European Conference on South Asian Studies (ECSAS), taking place at the University of Vienna in 2020 and its current call for panels. We are looking forward to your panel submission until 5 May 2019! CIRDIS Center for Interdisciplinary Research and Documentation of Inner and South Asian History Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 9, Campus 1090 Wien Tel.: +43-1-4277-41474 www.univie.ac.at/cirdis -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht -------- Betreff:???? ECSAS 2020 Vienna, Call for Panels Datum:???? Sun, 3 Feb 2019 14:56:57 +0100 Von:???? Office EASAS ECSAS 2020 Vienna, Call for Panels Dear member of EASAS, I hope this email finds you well. Please find attached the *Call for Panels* in conjunction with the *European Conference on South Asian Studies (ECSAS) 2020* in Vienna. You can also find the Call for Panels on our homepage: https://www.easas.eu/news/ or https://www.easas.eu/ecsas/ The Call for Panels is available for download in PDF format on our homepage and additionally copied in this email (see below) and furthermore, as already mentioned, attached as a PDF. Best regards Christoph Blumert, EASAS Administration, office at easas.eu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *ECSAS *2020Reflecting on Disciplinary Boundaries *26th European Conference on South Asian Studies Vienna, Austria***29 July ? 1 August 2020 ???? Call for Panels The *26th European Conference on South Asian Studies* (ECSAS) will be held at the University of Vienna, Austria, from *29 July to 1 August 2020*. On behalf of the European Association for South Asian Studies (EASAS) and the Academic and Organising Committees we cordially invite you to submit panel proposals. There is a long tradition of South Asian Studies in Vienna, both at the University of Vienna and at the Austrian Academy of Sciences, going back to the mid-19^th century. While a strong focus has been on South Asia?s premodern period, recent decades have witnessed a process of historical as well as disciplinary expansion. South Asian Studies in Austria today covers a wide range of disciplines and interests, and extends across several institutions. Against this background the motto of the Vienna conference will be ?Reflecting on Discipli?nary Boundaries?. We particularly welcome panels which reflect on disciplinary boundaries and promote trans-, inter- or multidisciplinary approaches. The *panel submission*is open from *4 February until 5 May 2019*. Please go to the conference website: _https://ecsas2020.univie.ac.at/_ All panel proposals must include the title of the panel, the name(s), affiliation(s) and the EASAS membership number of the convener(s), a contact e-mail, and a short and long abstract of the panel topic. Innovative elements of the panel should be particularly high?lighted. Names of tentative paper contributors may be included (optional). The short abstract must not exceed 300 characters, long abstracts must not exceed 1700 characters and should be text only. Please keep in mind that all panel proposals (and sub?sequent papers) must be in English. *EASAS membership required*. Please note that all panel conveners must be EASAS members at the time of submission. (Join here: __https://www.easas.eu/become-a-member/__) At least one of the conveners must be based at a European institution. *One panel and paper per conference*. Due to the ?competition for time? within such a conference, colleagues are allowed to convene no more than one panel and present only one paper during the conference. This does not prevent potential participants from making several proposals, but in the case of multiple acceptances the convener and/or panelist will be asked to choose only one. *All panels with an open call*. ECSAS requires all accepted panels to be open to paper proposals through the website: proposed panels cannot be ?closed? to further papers from the outset. All panel submissions will be evaluated by the conference?s Academic Committee. Panel proposers will be notified of the outcome by July 2019. If you have any general queries, please do not hesitate to contact: _ecsas2020 at univie.ac.at _ The abstracts of those panel proposals which have been selected will be published on the conference website. The Call for Papers will be open from *4 September to 17 November 2019*. EASAS members can then submit paper proposals to the selected panels. For the panels accepted by the Academic Committee, it is the responsibility of the panel convener(s) to: ?? * ???? review the proposed papers in line with the conference guidelines ???? and deadlines ?? * ???? notify the Organising Committee of the acceptance or rejection of ???? papers in a timely manner ?? * ???? provide adequate feedback to be forwarded to authors ?? * ???? plan the arrangement of papers and chairs in their panel in ???? collaboration with the Organising Committee. No panel may run for ???? more than four sessions of 90 minutes. While it is recognised that the content of any panel is dependent upon the selected papers and their overall quality, the Academic Committee asks all panel conveners to take due consideration of gender and diversity balance in their panel sessions. Please note that in the case of similar or overlapping panel submissions, the Academic Committee may ask panel conveners to collaborate in leading consolidated panels to ensure the overall coherence of the conference. We look forward to seeing you in Vienna in 2020! Martin Gaenszle and Birgit Kellner (Conveners) and Danuta Stasik (EASAS President) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ECSAS2020CallforPanels.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 240153 bytes Desc: not available URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 17:18:51 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 17:18:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I'd like to comment on a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer to this episode: Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I personally believe that this professor's advances where not totally inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that's it. Or maybe not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it wouldn't have mattered whether he'd had chosen to express his feelings or not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don't see why having feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don't have any means to know. I'm making a general point here and I hope it is clear. Believe, I'm not kidding when I say that now I feel I can't even make a compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress-and I mean both a male or a female colleague-without the fear that he or she would feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. Best wishes, Camillo From: Malcolm Keating Sent: 03 April 2019 07:08 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:08:44 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 20:08:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know I'm throwing myself into the lion's den, but I say this because I am someone in a position of (relative) power and it makes sense for me to say it: Camillo is dead wrong. The problem is one of power, and power between a teacher and student is always and inherently unequal. It's just a simple as that. What the teacher may think or feel (or think he/she feels) is something he/she has to deal with privately (or with a therapist or friend): there is never any possible way that that can ever under any circumstances be correctly conveyed to the student. This is gender neutral: male-female, female-male, f-f, m-m, it does not matter. It is not the gender that is the issue, it is the power. This is not the same as between colleagues, although even there I would say one must be extremely careful, because there is likely also there to be an imbalance of power. I am sure that there are grey areas; students become ex-students, etc., and I'm sure all of us know or know of a teacher who married an ex-student and had a long and happy life together. I do not dispute that. What I would say is that the circumstance of ignoring the imbalance of power is absolutely fatal*; there is no way this comes out well as long as this imbalance exists, and I dare say (here I may be going too far, I don't know) --here I dare to say, if you don't understand this, then just trust me on it without understanding it, and just keep your thoughts to yourself. Jonathan Silk PS: I've taught both in North America and in Europe, and this is not an issue that applies more in the former than the latter; it's a question of social tolerance, but that is changing everywhere (I hope), and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there are no excesses in political correctness in any domain, but this (discussed above) is not an example of that. *I see that this may be unclear: what I mean is that once the relationship no longer exists of teacher-student, in theory two persons could discuss openly their mutual attraction, but while the educational (etc) unequal relationship exists, this is almost certainly not possible. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:19 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > > Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment on > a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer > to this episode: > > > > Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself > by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and > placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate > because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. > > > > I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and > Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or > being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I > personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally > inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this > student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or > not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe > not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously > favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his > advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it > wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or > not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his > judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having > feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally > inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance > was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr > Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to > know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. > > > > Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a > compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean > both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would > feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > > > > *From:* Malcolm Keating > *Sent:* 03 April 2019 07:08 > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear all, > > 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw > attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field > that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with > sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent > cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in > conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered > Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: > https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). > This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype > threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within > Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. > > 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of > women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with > trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I > have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe > that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and > Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that > the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the > vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly > structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility > does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for > seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at > the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not > stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for > this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my > voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a > more humane and equitable environment for scholars. > > Best, > > Malcolm > > -- > *Malcolm Keating* > Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) > | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg > > Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me > Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ > > > > Subject: > > Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > From: > > Audrey Truschke > > Date: > > 2/4/19, 8:11 pm > > CC: > > "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" > > > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > > > Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my > account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to > the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often > angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the > list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward > with these sorts of concerns. > > > > That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to > encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), > refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and > persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and > intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific > case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him > for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around > sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists > and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without > complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about > discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think > this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not > know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the > effects were. > > > > So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are > aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the > committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender > parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing > committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should > value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further > steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for > adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something > else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at > large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I > resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping > down. But I will not press this particular point. > > > > Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for > conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, > but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a > legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without > declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and > discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias > and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing > committee going forward. > > > > Thank you for your time and consideration. > > > > All the Best, > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > Subject: > > Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > From: > > Audrey Truschke > > Date: > > 2/4/19, 8:11 pm > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Wed Apr 3 18:13:51 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 18:13:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Jonathan. You took the words out of mouth. Actually, what Camillo should have said is that if that professor had such feeling, he should resign from his job and then, freed from the power relationship, perhaps approach that person to see whether she is interested in a relationship. Well, if she is not, then he would have lost on both counts!! Patrick On Apr 3, 2019, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > wrote: I know I'm throwing myself into the lion's den, but I say this because I am someone in a position of (relative) power and it makes sense for me to say it: Camillo is dead wrong. The problem is one of power, and power between a teacher and student is always and inherently unequal. It's just a simple as that. What the teacher may think or feel (or think he/she feels) is something he/she has to deal with privately (or with a therapist or friend): there is never any possible way that that can ever under any circumstances be correctly conveyed to the student. This is gender neutral: male-female, female-male, f-f, m-m, it does not matter. It is not the gender that is the issue, it is the power. This is not the same as between colleagues, although even there I would say one must be extremely careful, because there is likely also there to be an imbalance of power. I am sure that there are grey areas; students become ex-students, etc., and I'm sure all of us know or know of a teacher who married an ex-student and had a long and happy life together. I do not dispute that. What I would say is that the circumstance of ignoring the imbalance of power is absolutely fatal*; there is no way this comes out well as long as this imbalance exists, and I dare say (here I may be going too far, I don't know) --here I dare to say, if you don't understand this, then just trust me on it without understanding it, and just keep your thoughts to yourself. Jonathan Silk PS: I've taught both in North America and in Europe, and this is not an issue that applies more in the former than the latter; it's a question of social tolerance, but that is changing everywhere (I hope), and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there are no excesses in political correctness in any domain, but this (discussed above) is not an example of that. *I see that this may be unclear: what I mean is that once the relationship no longer exists of teacher-student, in theory two persons could discuss openly their mutual attraction, but while the educational (etc) unequal relationship exists, this is almost certainly not possible. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:19 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment on a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer to this episode: Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. Best wishes, Camillo From: Malcolm Keating > Sent: 03 April 2019 07:08 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Wed Apr 3 18:23:39 2019 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 18:23:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd like to side with Jonathan on this, if I may. As long as the teacher is a teacher, s/he should assume the virtues that Sankara required from the student (shama, dama, etc.) upon himself/herself. Self-control must be the norm in a relationship of power imbalance. Best, Aleksandar Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:08:44 PM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee I know I'm throwing myself into the lion's den, but I say this because I am someone in a position of (relative) power and it makes sense for me to say it: Camillo is dead wrong. The problem is one of power, and power between a teacher and student is always and inherently unequal. It's just a simple as that. What the teacher may think or feel (or think he/she feels) is something he/she has to deal with privately (or with a therapist or friend): there is never any possible way that that can ever under any circumstances be correctly conveyed to the student. This is gender neutral: male-female, female-male, f-f, m-m, it does not matter. It is not the gender that is the issue, it is the power. This is not the same as between colleagues, although even there I would say one must be extremely careful, because there is likely also there to be an imbalance of power. I am sure that there are grey areas; students become ex-students, etc., and I'm sure all of us know or know of a teacher who married an ex-student and had a long and happy life together. I do not dispute that. What I would say is that the circumstance of ignoring the imbalance of power is absolutely fatal*; there is no way this comes out well as long as this imbalance exists, and I dare say (here I may be going too far, I don't know) --here I dare to say, if you don't understand this, then just trust me on it without understanding it, and just keep your thoughts to yourself. Jonathan Silk PS: I've taught both in North America and in Europe, and this is not an issue that applies more in the former than the latter; it's a question of social tolerance, but that is changing everywhere (I hope), and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there are no excesses in political correctness in any domain, but this (discussed above) is not an example of that. *I see that this may be unclear: what I mean is that once the relationship no longer exists of teacher-student, in theory two persons could discuss openly their mutual attraction, but while the educational (etc) unequal relationship exists, this is almost certainly not possible. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:19 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment on a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer to this episode: Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. Best wishes, Camillo From: Malcolm Keating > Sent: 03 April 2019 07:08 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 3 18:30:48 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 11:30:48 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In a similar situation at the University of Michigan many years ago, a tenured professor was fired, and there were departmental faculty meetings on how such issues should be addressed, and some guidelines were developed. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:24 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I'd like to side with Jonathan on this, if I may. As long as the teacher > is a teacher, s/he should assume the virtues that Sankara required from the > student (shama, dama, etc.) upon himself/herself. Self-control must be the > norm in a relationship of power imbalance. > > Best, > Aleksandar > > Get Outlook for Android > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:08:44 PM > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > I know I'm throwing myself into the lion's den, but I say this because I > am someone in a position of (relative) power and it makes sense for me to > say it: Camillo is dead wrong. The problem is one of power, and power > between a teacher and student is always and inherently unequal. It's just a > simple as that. What the teacher may think or feel (or think he/she feels) > is something he/she has to deal with privately (or with a therapist or > friend): there is never any possible way that that can ever under any > circumstances be correctly conveyed to the student. This is gender neutral: > male-female, female-male, f-f, m-m, it does not matter. It is not the > gender that is the issue, it is the power. This is not the same as between > colleagues, although even there I would say one must be extremely careful, > because there is likely also there to be an imbalance of power. I am sure > that there are grey areas; students become ex-students, etc., and I'm sure > all of us know or know of a teacher who married an ex-student and had a > long and happy life together. I do not dispute that. What I would say is > that the circumstance of ignoring the imbalance of power is absolutely > fatal*; there is no way this comes out well as long as this imbalance > exists, and I dare say (here I may be going too far, I don't know) --here I > dare to say, if you don't understand this, then just trust me on it without > understanding it, and just keep your thoughts to yourself. > Jonathan Silk > > PS: I've taught both in North America and in Europe, and this is not an > issue that applies more in the former than the latter; it's a question of > social tolerance, but that is changing everywhere (I hope), and I certainly > don't mean to suggest that there are no excesses in political correctness > in any domain, but this (discussed above) is not an example of that. > *I see that this may be unclear: what I mean is that once the relationship > no longer exists of teacher-student, in theory two persons could discuss > openly their mutual attraction, but while the educational (etc) unequal > relationship exists, this is almost certainly not possible. > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:19 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> >> >> Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment >> on a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I >> refer to this episode: >> >> >> >> Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened >> himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of >> class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would >> graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. >> >> >> >> I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and >> Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or >> being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I >> personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally >> inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this >> student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or >> not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe >> not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously >> favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his >> advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it >> wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or >> not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his >> judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having >> feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally >> inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance >> was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr >> Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to >> know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. >> >> >> >> Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a >> compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean >> both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would >> feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Malcolm Keating >> *Sent:* 03 April 2019 07:08 >> *To:* indology at list.indology.info >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw >> attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field >> that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with >> sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent >> cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in >> conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered >> Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: >> https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). >> This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype >> threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within >> Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. >> >> 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of >> women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with >> trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I >> have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe >> that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and >> Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that >> the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the >> vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly >> structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility >> does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for >> seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at >> the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not >> stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for >> this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my >> voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a >> more humane and equitable environment for scholars. >> >> Best, >> >> Malcolm >> >> -- >> *Malcolm Keating* >> Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) >> | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg >> >> Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me >> Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ >> >> >> >> Subject: >> >> Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> From: >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Date: >> >> 2/4/19, 8:11 pm >> >> CC: >> >> "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" >> >> >> >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> >> >> Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my >> account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to >> the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often >> angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the >> list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward >> with these sorts of concerns. >> >> >> >> That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to >> encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), >> refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and >> persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and >> intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific >> case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him >> for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around >> sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists >> and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without >> complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about >> discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think >> this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not >> know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the >> effects were. >> >> >> >> So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are >> aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the >> committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender >> parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing >> committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should >> value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further >> steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for >> adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something >> else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at >> large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I >> resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping >> down. But I will not press this particular point. >> >> >> >> Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for >> conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, >> but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a >> legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without >> declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and >> discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias >> and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing >> committee going forward. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your time and consideration. >> >> >> >> All the Best, >> >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Assistant Professor >> >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> Subject: >> >> Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee >> >> From: >> >> Audrey Truschke >> >> Date: >> >> 2/4/19, 8:11 pm >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauthoff at ualberta.ca Wed Apr 3 18:52:19 2019 From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 12:52:19 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks again to Audrey Trushcke for bringing up this important topic once again. It is quite something to watch men on this list present themselves as either sensitive to the issues of sexual bias and sexism or hasty defenders of patriarchal system. The list of allies and adversaries writes itself. Certainly there are differences between North American and European educational systems. In North America we have had more -- but still limited success -- at breaking into leadership roles and dismantling the Old Boys Clubs that run academia behind the scenes. To be completely clear, in no way was the advance toward my student one of ill-timing. In addition to the one-sided feelings that were expressed there was an offer of research, employment, and a multi-day conference trip that also included a side trip just for the student and professor. The initial rebuff by my undergraduate student was not an apology by her 50-something-year-old professor and an ongoing professional relationship but yet another effort to change the student's mind about her feelings. It was not only inappropriate but so completely clich? that it could easily be an example of "What Not to Do 101." Fortunately, my student felt comfortable enough with my and another (female) member of faculty to discuss the issue with us. Fortunately again for her, the undergraduate representative and the (female) head of the department in which the professor works (not mine) took the complaint seriously, advising her not to attend any future lectures and assuring my student that her work would be assessed by someone other than the professor who acted inappropriately. "He was trapped" is a ridiculous thing to say. By whom was he trapped? As far as I can see, there was no "trap," simply a man in power who felt his feelings were so important that he repeatedly felt the need to lure a student into a situation where he could get her away from the academic space so that he could re-express already rebuffed feelings. The only trap here is the system in which he thought this was an acceptable thing to do. People fall in love. We are human. Many members of our field are married to one another or other academics. That is not the issue here. Some are quick to side with those who have been outed as predatory without taking into consideration the feelings and experiences of those who have felt victimized. The lessons of the Me Too movement are apparently slow to permeate academics. The most fundamental lesson is to *listen to and believe women*. We do not gain by bringing up these issues and in fact are more likely to be punished, ridiculed, called difficult or troublemakers when we do speak up. If you want to think about how to respond, look at some of the (predominantly male) voices who have spoken up to say there clearly is something worthy of discussion here. Think about how you can respond in a way that doesn't diminish or dismiss a different perspective. Read this: https://www.polygon.com/2014/7/24/5933565/online-sexism-what-can-be-done-women-gaming-harassment If you find it impossible to compliment a colleague, that's on you. Perhaps reconsidering your approach and relationship to the women whom you would like to compliment would help. I have cultivated personal friendships with many, many men in my life. There are men on this list that I consider personal friends who I look forward to seeing at the yearly conferences and other rare instances in which members of our field gather IRL. I hope that none of my friends, male or female, would hesitate to give me (or someone else with whom they have a relationship of mutual respect) a simple compliment. Start out by reading their work, discussing their ideas without explaining their ideas to them, build a relationship of respect and safety, ask how they are doing and listen to the answer. These simple things make future compliments genuine and appreciated. For those who do not feel that this is an appropriate topic of discussion: You do not have to read all the emails sent to the list. You do not have to police a discussion that others clearly do feel is both appropriate and important. This discussion has brought out voices that are rarely heard on this list. That is a good thing! If you feel threatened by this conversation, think about why. What do you have to lose by learning something about the experiences of others? That I have been contacted off-list by multiple women who have seen this discussion but not been able to join in for a variety of reasons demonstrates that this is an important, necessary, and dangerous discussion. I am happy to continue this discussion on or off list. The gathering of demographic data about our membership seems like a very good idea. It will not only give us an idea about how dominantated by male perspectives this list is but also likely a very informed overview of the demographics of our field. Last year at AAR we briefly discussed the disparity in Yoga Studies, with women forging the way in modern yoga studies while men continue to command the historical and philological fields. One of the many reasons for this disparity appears to be the systems of academia itself, which pushes women onto certain paths while discouraging the exploration of others. Perhaps simply quantifying how many women here listen but do not speak will open some eyes to the many voices and perspectives that are not represented in this forum and allow us as a group to consider how we might be more welcoming to all members of the list, despite our varying perspectives. Best wishes, Patricia On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:19 AM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > > Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment on > a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer > to this episode: > > > > Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself > by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and > placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate > because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. > > > > I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and > Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or > being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I > personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally > inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this > student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or > not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe > not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously > favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his > advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it > wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or > not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his > judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having > feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally > inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance > was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr > Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to > know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. > > > > Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a > compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean > both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would > feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > > > > *From:* Malcolm Keating > *Sent:* 03 April 2019 07:08 > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > > > Dear all, > > 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw > attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field > that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with > sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent > cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in > conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered > Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: > https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). > This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype > threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within > Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. > > 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of > women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with > trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I > have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe > that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and > Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that > the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the > vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly > structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility > does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for > seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at > the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not > stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for > this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my > voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a > more humane and equitable environment for scholars. > > Best, > > Malcolm > > -- > *Malcolm Keating* > Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) > | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg > > Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me > Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ > > > > Subject: > > Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > From: > > Audrey Truschke > > Date: > > 2/4/19, 8:11 pm > > CC: > > "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" > > > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > > > Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my > account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to > the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often > angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the > list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward > with these sorts of concerns. > > > > That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to > encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), > refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and > persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and > intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific > case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him > for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around > sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists > and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without > complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about > discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think > this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not > know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the > effects were. > > > > So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are > aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the > committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender > parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing > committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should > value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further > steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for > adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something > else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at > large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I > resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping > down. But I will not press this particular point. > > > > Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for > conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, > but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a > legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without > declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and > discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias > and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing > committee going forward. > > > > Thank you for your time and consideration. > > > > All the Best, > > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > Audrey Truschke > > Assistant Professor > > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > Subject: > > Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > From: > > Audrey Truschke > > Date: > > 2/4/19, 8:11 pm > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Patricia Sauthoff Post-doctoral researcher AyurYog.org Department of History and Classics University of Alberta Edmonton, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 20:06:46 2019 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 20:06:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With regard to this important topic, participants and onlookers might note what is occurring in related disciplines. See, for example, "Advancing Feminism Online: Online Tools, Visibility, and Women in Classics", recently published in the journal "Studies in Late Antiquity" (abstract http://sla.ucpress.edu/content/3/1/4.full.pdf+html ). Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Wed Apr 3 20:45:46 2019 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 20:45:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification Request Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I asked Dr. Truschke a clarification question yesterday, concerning the role of the forum committee, hoping to understand better where the problem is. I understand from her automated reply that she is currently traveling, so I would like to open the question for other committee members, past or present, female or male. Let me clarify first that I do not question the gender parity aspiration, in academia as everywhere else. I also agree that it is an issue very much worthy of discussion on this forum, as far as it pertains the study of South Asia and our own profession, its history and present (and hopefully bright future). Coming originally from a tiny, corrupt place, I do have some experience of what being powerless feels like, though I certainly do not claim that I know what our female colleagues undergo in their careers. My question is not about that general issue. What I fail to understand is why having gender parity or parity of any kind (senior/junior, India/Europe/US/South America etc.) matters here, in the INDOLOGY forum committee, because I do not understand where the power problem is. What is it that the committee does other than approving membership requests and occasionally intervening if discussions go astray? Since the forum follows what I would describe as ?an honor system? and the only expectation is for members to be respectful in their posts, the forum is not moderated: what are the issues that could be gender-sensitive in the work of the committee? Is there anything else that the committee does, other than approving membership requests? Related to this, why is it important to have more female members for the sake of parity, rather than, say, a two-member team (with gender parity)? Let me emphasize ? as I believe that many of our ("our" as "humanity") issues stem from misunderstanding and psychoanalyzing one another ? that my question is not rhetorical. I genuinely do not understand and hope to learn. Yours, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 21:06:44 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 15:06:44 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Aleksandar, Speaking for myself, from my own experience the committee does just what you say. It's rather pedestrian: - We process membership requests, which means reading applicants' short CVs and voting "yes" or "no." When there are borderline cases, they get discussed before voting. This is the main activity of the committee. - We process requests from members to update their email addresses and to solve technical issues with the Mailserve software, for example when mails bounce because a member's mailbox is full, or when a member posts from an email address different from their registration. This is the second most time-consuming committee activity. - On the rare occasions when there are contentious posts to the public INDOLOGY forum, we discuss whether or not intervention is likely to help or hinder the conversation and what we might try. Intervention is rare (once a year?) and, in my experience, usually ineffective. :-) - Once in a blue moon, we discuss inviting one or more new members to join the committee, usually when someone steps down. Things I do personally: - Once a quarter, I pay the rent for the disk space we use, the bandwidth and the Mailserve hosting service, and the DNS name registration. I've always just done this; I don't discuss this with the committee. - I update the indology.info website sporadically in response to new information or corrections; I'm not very proud of the website, which is a bit old-fashioned in 2019, and not really comprehensive. I have lots of doubts about the website's function and content, but I also have no time to reconceive and update it. When there are tech problems with it, Patrick Mc Allister kindly and expertly solves them. (Thank you, Patrick!) Things the committee doesn't do: - We don't moderate the forum. When a member posts a message to the forum, it immediately goes straight out to all 762 members without intervention. The committee has no privileged control over the conversations in the forum. - We don't normally discuss what is going on in the public INDOLOGY forum. As individuals, we participate in the INDOLOGY forum discussions just like everyone else. The current committee consists of five active members, Audrey, Wendy, Philipp, Stefan and myself, as listed on the indology.info website . Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 23:15:00 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 23:15:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: <432744599.11179.1554317645458.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f30> Message-ID: Dear Dr Sauthoff, this is what I have written in my first email regarding the topic of sexism in academia: "I believe that we all agree about the fact the equal opportunities for women and minorities are very rare indeed across the world and it is rather obvious to me that our small Indological garden cannot and in fact is not different. [...] In my opinion, the misogyny in this mailing list is so evident that it doesn?t need to be discussed, it is there as a fact." You write: "If you find it impossible to compliment a colleague, that's on you. Perhaps reconsidering your approach and relationship to the women whom you would like to compliment would help." I take your suggestion to heart. By the way, rest assured that I already make compliments about my colleagues' appearance, because as I said in my first message, I don't care about political correctness. I make compliments to younger female colleagues, older female colleagues, older male colleagues and so on so fort. When I wrote about your student's experience, I was making a general point. It seems to me that before writing anything, one should carefully read the other's opinion: "Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don't have any means to know. I'm making a general point here and I hope it is clear." I thought that this was a clear enough sentence in the English language, but I apologise if it wasn't. I'll continue to be convinced that not only academia, but the whole world is still terribly patriarcal. (Maybe the only exception now is the Rojava and the new Kurdish Democratic System, who really the equal opportunities, but since they are a bunch of socialists or even worse, they are not on the first page of major newspapers.) I'll also continue to actively support all initiatives for equal opportunities. Funny, isn't it? It seems almost as if I have a split personality, if you read my first email and my second one. Or maybe the reality is more nuanced than we are ready to admit. I leave it to you to decide. Now, do we really want to get personal on this list? I'm not itching for it, to be honest. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: Georges PINAULT Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 7:54:05 PM To: OlivelleJP; JonathanSilk Cc: indologylist.indology.info; Camillo Formigatti Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Colleagues, I agree totally with the comments of Jonathan Silk, joined by Patrick Olivelle. The whole issue is about power and unequality of relationships in given social units or circles. This is actually not proper to academic institutions. I may mention what has happened in the Catholic church (just to take a spectacular recent case, without omitting other religions), in several political organizations (whichever orientation), in artistic teams (movie, theater, music, dance), in scientific laboratories, etc. In every case, the imbalance of power is the point. Every teacher or scholar should be aware of that. Best regards, Georges-Jean Pinault > Message du 03/04/19 20:14 > De : "Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY" > A : "Jonathan Silk" > Copie ? : "indology at list.indology.info" , "Camillo Formigatti" > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Thank you, Jonathan. You took the words out of mouth. Actually, what Camillo should have said is that if that professor had such feeling, he should resign from his job and then, freed from the power relationship, perhaps approach that person to see whether she is interested in a relationship. Well, if she is not, then he would have lost on both counts!! Patrick On Apr 3, 2019, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > wrote: I know I'm throwing myself into the lion's den, but I say this because I am someone in a position of (relative) power and it makes sense for me to say it: Camillo is dead wrong. The problem is one of power, and power between a teacher and student is always and inherently unequal. It's just a simple as that. What the teacher may think or feel (or think he/she feels) is something he/she has to deal with privately (or with a therapist or friend): there is never any possible way that that can ever under any circumstances be correctly conveyed to the student. This is gender neutral: male-female, female-male, f-f, m-m, it does not matter. It is not the gender that is the issue, it is the power. This is not the same as between colleagues, although even there I would say one must be extremely careful, because there is likely also there to be an imbalance of power. I am sure that there are grey areas; students become ex-students, etc., and I'm sure all of us know or know of a teacher who married an ex-student and had a long and happy life together. I do not dispute that. What I would say is that the circumstance of ignoring the imbalance of power is absolutely fatal*; there is no way this comes out well as long as this imbalance exists, and I dare say (here I may be going too far, I don't know) --here I dare to say, if you don't understand this, then just trust me on it without understanding it, and just keep your thoughts to yourself. Jonathan Silk PS: I've taught both in North America and in Europe, and this is not an issue that applies more in the former than the latter; it's a question of social tolerance, but that is changing everywhere (I hope), and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there are no excesses in political correctness in any domain, but this (discussed above) is not an example of that. *I see that this may be unclear: what I mean is that once the relationship no longer exists of teacher-student, in theory two persons could discuss openly their mutual attraction, but while the educational (etc) unequal relationship exists, this is almost certainly not possible. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:19 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment on a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer to this episode: Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. Best wishes, Camillo From: Malcolm Keating > Sent: 03 April 2019 07:08 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 23:22:22 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 23:22:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, I'm not dead wrong, nor am I right, for what it's worth, because being right was never my intention when I wrote my last message. I simply wanted to raise an issue and I managed to do it, judging from the replies I received. Your reply does not take into account the fact that we are all human beings. In the haste of stressing the obvious, namely that it is a matter of power, you obliterate another obvious matter, namely that professors -- or shall we perhaps say all educators -- are not only entitled to have feelings towards their students, but also that more often than not this is something out of their control. Moreover, I find very funny that you raise the issue of power relations, because in this discussion you are in a position of power, if compared to other younger colleagues, who don't have a permanent position (like myself) and probably don't feel at all comfortable in entering the lion's den. The reluctance of younger colleagues to express their opinions about matters of sexism and bias on the Indology committe as been already pointed out by Dr Sauthoff and rightly so, but I'd like to highlight again that in this list the power relation is obviously tilted in favour of professors and senior colleagues (who are overwhelmingly male, by the way). I'm writing all this because I would never dare to write on this list that you are dead wrong about anything, and for two simple reasons. First of all, because I never start a discussion to prove that I'm right. I truly believe that a fruitful discussion is never about being right or wrong, but about gaining a better understanding of the issue. Moreover, I think that even the most outlandish ideas might be interesting and deserve to be at least seriously considered, instead of being dismissed immediately. Secondly, in this discussion you are a powerful professor, while I'm only a younger colleague on a fixed-term position. The power relation here is clear. At some point in the near future you might be in the position of having the power to decide about the future of my own career and it's certainly not advisable for me to risk to upset you. Now, you are certainly thinking that you judge applicants only for the scholarly value, but this doesn't eliminate the issue of power, does it? Even the simple fact that I've addressed this issue directly and publicly on the list has already changed everybody's perception of me as a person and hence as a scholar, like it or not. It's not something positive or negative, it just is. Power relations are and always will be there in all aspects of life. So yes, I completely agree with you: it is always an issue of power, even when we discuss supposedly neutral scholarly topics. As to the political correctness, believe me, I hesitated to write that last remark, precisely because of the implicit power relations you referred to. A couple of other considerations. I am one of the very few men who didn't even doubt for a second about the misogyny in academia at large. I even went so far as to write immediately and without any reservation that I find the atmosphere in this mailing list misogynist. Also, I'd like to point out that Prof. Madhav Deshpande is an Emeritus professor, Malcom Keating is an assistant professor, Aleksandar Uskokov a Lecturer, Georges Pinault is a professor. I'm a librarian on a fixed-term contract. How is the power relationship in this discussion again? I'm hammering on this point because of a very simple reason: nobody in this list had the courage to reply to my first email, in which I wrote a comment about the right-winged, misogynistic and nationalistic Hindu propaganda spewed on this very list. Why is that? Why did I get a lot of instant replies to my last email, but none to the former? I do have an idea, but at this point I'm truly scared at the prospect of expressing any kind of opinion on this list. If we want to talk about power, I'm all for it, but then we should go for the full ride. I'm totally for it. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: Madhav Deshpande Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 7:30:48 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar Cc: Camillo Formigatti; Jonathan Silk; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In a similar situation at the University of Michigan many years ago, a tenured professor was fired, and there were departmental faculty meetings on how such issues should be addressed, and some guidelines were developed. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:24 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY > wrote: I'd like to side with Jonathan on this, if I may. As long as the teacher is a teacher, s/he should assume the virtues that Sankara required from the student (shama, dama, etc.) upon himself/herself. Self-control must be the norm in a relationship of power imbalance. Best, Aleksandar Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:08:44 PM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee I know I'm throwing myself into the lion's den, but I say this because I am someone in a position of (relative) power and it makes sense for me to say it: Camillo is dead wrong. The problem is one of power, and power between a teacher and student is always and inherently unequal. It's just a simple as that. What the teacher may think or feel (or think he/she feels) is something he/she has to deal with privately (or with a therapist or friend): there is never any possible way that that can ever under any circumstances be correctly conveyed to the student. This is gender neutral: male-female, female-male, f-f, m-m, it does not matter. It is not the gender that is the issue, it is the power. This is not the same as between colleagues, although even there I would say one must be extremely careful, because there is likely also there to be an imbalance of power. I am sure that there are grey areas; students become ex-students, etc., and I'm sure all of us know or know of a teacher who married an ex-student and had a long and happy life together. I do not dispute that. What I would say is that the circumstance of ignoring the imbalance of power is absolutely fatal*; there is no way this comes out well as long as this imbalance exists, and I dare say (here I may be going too far, I don't know) --here I dare to say, if you don't understand this, then just trust me on it without understanding it, and just keep your thoughts to yourself. Jonathan Silk PS: I've taught both in North America and in Europe, and this is not an issue that applies more in the former than the latter; it's a question of social tolerance, but that is changing everywhere (I hope), and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there are no excesses in political correctness in any domain, but this (discussed above) is not an example of that. *I see that this may be unclear: what I mean is that once the relationship no longer exists of teacher-student, in theory two persons could discuss openly their mutual attraction, but while the educational (etc) unequal relationship exists, this is almost certainly not possible. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:19 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, Sorry for intervening again in this discussion, but I?d like to comment on a point raised by Dr Sauthoff and taken up again by Prof. Keating. I refer to this episode: Just last week a student came to me after her professor unburdened himself by professing his feelings to her -- two weeks before the end of class and placing her in a position where she was not sure if she would graduate because she rebuffed his (totally inappropriate) advances. I wonder whether is a cultural difference between North Americans and Europeans regarding what is considered inappropriate behaviour bordering or being sexual harassment. I hope I can explain what I mean in a clear way. I personally believe that this professor?s advances where not totally inappropriate, only the timing was inappropriate. His feelings towards this student were there anyway, regardless of the fact that he expressed them or not. He should only have waited the end of the classes, that?s it. Or maybe not even, because even if he had waited, he might have unconsciously favoured this student, in the hope that she would have returned his advances afterwards. Either way, he was trapped, in the sense that it wouldn?t have mattered whether he?d had chosen to express his feelings or not, by the moment he started to have feelings towards his student, his judgment as a mentor was clouded anyway. Now, I don?t see why having feelings towards another adult human being should be considered totally inappropriate. Obviously, all these considerations are moot if the advance was done in a pushing way with overt sexual behaviour, but since Dr Sauthoff did not describe the advance in detail, I don?t have any means to know. I?m making a general point here and I hope it is clear. Believe, I?m not kidding when I say that now I feel I can?t even make a compliment to a colleague about a new haircut or a nice dress?and I mean both a male or a female colleague?without the fear that he or she would feel harassed. This is how far political correctness has gone. Best wishes, Camillo From: Malcolm Keating > Sent: 03 April 2019 07:08 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear all, 1. Regarding Dr. Truschke's concerns about gender parity, I would draw attention to an analogous effort being made in philosophy, which is a field that is also heavily male-dominated and has its share of problems with sexism, from egregious cases of harassment to pernicious and persistent cases of stereotyping. The idea of aiming toward gender parity in conferences has been present there for a decade now (see the "Gendered Conference Campaign" post at the Feminist Philosophers Blog: https://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/gendered-conference-campaign/). This post includes links to some discussion about implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. I raise the question of whether analogous efforts within Indology more broadly might not also have salutary effects. 2. I would like to echo Dr. Sauthoff's concerns about the experiences of women in academia. As another junior academic, I post to this list with trepidation, aware of its public nature and wide reach. At the same time, I have enough evidence, testimonial, perceptual, and inferential, to believe that there persist widespread problems in academia more generally, and Indian philosophy (my own subfield) more specifically. I also agree that the problems are more entrenched than what might be visible from the vantage point of most men, myself included. Perhaps these may be mostly structural, and not a matter of individual bad intentions. That possibility does not mean those of us within these structures aren't responsible for seeking solutions. And finally, if my female colleagues are speaking out at the risk of their reputations--at least in the sense of reputations for not stirring things up--I cannot simply watch. What the implications are for this list, I am in no position to say. However, I would like to add my voice to those who would like to see more discussion of how to create a more humane and equitable environment for scholars. Best, Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg Office hours may be scheduled here: https://malcolmkeating.youcanbook.me Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm CC: "Indology List (indology at list.indology.info)" Dear Friends and Colleagues, Dr. Silk raises a valid point, which is that I am slightly vague in my account of what has happened. I would encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that other committee members have repeatedly told me, often angrily, to not share their emails and to not discuss any of this with the list at large. There are real risks for women who choose to come forward with these sorts of concerns. That said, I do point to some specific things, such as an attempt to encourage me to resign when I pointed out bias (March 2019; in an e-mail), refusals to talk about possible bias (numerous e-mails; fall 2018), and persistent demands that I keep silent about what I experience as abuse and intimidation (repeated over the past year or so). To add another specific case, last week a committee member wrote to Dr. Paturi and chastised him for writing 'thank you' to the entire list regarding the post I sent around sharing Anand Venkatkrishnan's excellent blog post on female Sanskritists and sexism. Indology members say thank you to the list all the time without complaint, and so this was a targeted silencing of a discussion about discrimination against women in our profession (and it worked). I think this is a fair amount of precision and several discrete instances. I do not know whether the intent was sexist or biased in any specific case, but the effects were. So far as how to move forward, I recommend a few concrete steps. All are aimed to redirecting the committee's energy toward making both the committee and the list a more equitable, welcoming place. (1) I want gender parity, or at least approaching gender parity, on the INDOLOGY governing committee by adding female members. I think everyone on this list should value and want gender parity. (2) I want the committee to take further steps to address bias issues, whether that is bias training, a system for adjudicating complaints, shaking up committee membership, or something else. Whatever we decide, I would like those steps announced to the list at large. (3) Personally, I think that the individual who suggested that I resign after pointing out bias should instead, himself, consider stepping down. But I will not press this particular point. Another thing that I wish to achieve here is awareness and space for conversation. Indology as a discipline may be focused on classical India, but we exist in the modern world, and modern issues of bias are a legitimate topic for scholars to discuss on INDOLOGY (preferably without declarations by list members that a given discussion of bias and discrimination is inappropriate on INDOLOGY). I would like issues of bias and discrimination treated seriously on this list and on the governing committee going forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee From: Audrey Truschke Date: 2/4/19, 8:11 pm _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbjones at utexas.edu Thu Apr 4 05:21:28 2019 From: mbjones at utexas.edu (Michael Brattus Jones) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 19 22:21:28 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, I support parity on the governing board. It would be a small action with a great effect, and I don't believe I've read any arguments directly against it. I happen to follow Dr. Truschke on Twitter and I've seen the terrible abuses she endures there, as a result of discussing her academic work. I'm not comparing this forum with that one, but it does underscore the need for this forum to strive to seem as safe a place as possible, whether or not people see eye to eye on any specific issues. Thank you, Michael Brattus Jones, Ph.D. On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I > have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past > year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee > members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their > explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, > ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to > overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the > committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues > internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I > have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations > that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a > troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a > discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within > INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of > this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the > discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile > form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, > including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female > members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, > and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons > and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the > list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a > committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if > he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In > other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly > inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer > serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding > light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, > unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue > for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find > that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly > run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of > bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every > turn, including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 08:45:17 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 10:45:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues and Friends, I have been heartened to see the supportive responses by many on this listserv. It means a lot to see my colleagues - some of whom rarely or never post on this list - trying to honestly grapple with our problems, make sense of bias and its many forms, and talk about possible steps for improvement. Going forward, I hope that we follow up on John Nemec's suggestion to gather data about women in PhD programs (and, perhaps, job placement thereafter, since hiring processes often involve gender bias in the profession). I also draw attention to Herman Tull's observation that many female Sanskritists opt out of this forum; I hope that we continue to try to change the listserv so that more women find it a welcoming forum. Thus far, the INDOLOGY governing committee has taken no steps to address our problems with sexism and bias. I and others have made concrete suggestions, and we have been met with silence. Two members of the governing committee (besides myself) have e-mailed during this discussion; neither response made any attempt to address the concerns of bias and sexism raised by myself and other list members. This is unsurprising. Inaction and flat denial of any problem are quite common responses when women come forward with the dark side of what we face in the academy. I suggest, again, the following concrete steps ought to be taken by the INDOLOGY governing committee. (1) Gender Parity. Numerous people have supported a call for gender parity on the INDOLOGY governing committee (currently a 2:1 male:female ratio). Let's move forward with that, now, and add 2 women. (2) Dealing with Bias. It is unacceptable to go forward with the same structures in place that have resulted in me experiencing, in my view, sexist treatment, for months without recourse. We need a better system. I have suggested conducting committee business openly or shaking up membership on the committee. Jason Birch suggested a grievance system with an outside mediator. We could do all of those things, or some of them. A key point is this: The INDOLOGY governing committee needs to be committed to taking action and showing leadership in openly trying to implement some of these suggestions and thereby make the governing committee and the list a more equitable place. There has been ample support demonstrated by list members for action on issues of possible bias on the INDOLOGY governing committee and also interest in openly discussing, on the INDOLOGY list, a wide range of issues concerning sexism and discrimination. I thank those who have spoken up thus far, and I invite everyone else to please join us in making our small corner of the academy a more equitable place. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:21 AM Michael Brattus Jones wrote: > Dear List, > > > I support parity on the governing board. It would be a small action with a > great effect, and I don't believe I've read any arguments directly against > it. > > > I happen to follow Dr. Truschke on Twitter and I've seen the terrible > abuses she endures there, as a result of discussing her academic work. I'm > not comparing this forum with that one, but it does underscore the need for > this forum to strive to seem as safe a place as possible, whether or not > people see eye to eye on any specific issues. > > > Thank you, > > Michael Brattus Jones, Ph.D. > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> >> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I >> have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >> explicit instructions here. >> >> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >> list a more equitable place. >> >> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >> >> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >> turn, including in running this listserv. >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Apr 4 09:20:15 2019 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 09:20:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe replace in the governing committee Adheesh Sathaye, University of British Columbia (on leave from 2018/11) by a female colleague so 6:2 = 3 of each gender, and if possible somebody from India (underrepresented in the committee). I take the opportunity for correcting a previous post in a related matter: On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 at 1:46 PM, Christophe Vielle > wrote: ??? in Kerala??? Prof. K.K. Geethakumary, Dept. Sanskrit, Un. of Calicut, is even Dean of the Fac. of letters! + T. Mini in Dept. Sahitya of the SSUS Kalady + B. Chandrika and K. Muthulakshmi, Dept. Vedanta of the SSUS Kalady + C.N Vijayakumari, Dir. Centre for Vedanta Studies, Un. of Kerala + numerous other Le 13 f?vr. 2019 ? 18:55, Shrinivasa Varakhedi via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : The personal stories narrated by these women inform us the current trend of Sanskrit studies in India. Statistics suggests that more than 60% female students are studying and same no of women are enjoying faculty position in some states like Maharashtra, Kerala, and WestBengal. Le 4 avr. 2019 ? 10:45, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : I suggest, again, the following concrete steps ought to be taken by the INDOLOGY governing committee. (1) Gender Parity. Numerous people have supported a call for gender parity on the INDOLOGY governing committee (currently a 2:1 male:female ratio). Let's move forward with that, now, and add 2 women. Audrey Truschke Le 3 avr. 2019 ? 23:06, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : The current committee consists of five active members, Audrey, Wendy, Philipp, Stefan and myself, as listed on the indology.info website. Best, Dominik ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at Thu Apr 4 10:16:08 2019 From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 12:16:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16bd4007-63d0-db42-8734-6b1f0b970409@oeaw.ac.at> Dear everyone, I am in full agreement that bias in Academia is something that needs to be addressed. Like others, I feel I'm not in a place to comment on the situation that Audrey Tuschke experienced. We have not heard from everyone on the committee, and I am also not sure whether this forum is the right place for resolving tensions in the committee. My concern is now with a more fundamental matter as far as the list and its relationship to the committee is concerned. It seems to me that Audrey Tuschke's proposal calls for a much stronger function of the committee than it has had (and exercised) so far. Having served on the committee myself for several years, I can only confirm what Dominik outlined in a previous post: the committee actually has a very minimal function. Its main task is to administer membership. It does not regulate communication on the list in a particularly strong fashion. Committee members on occasion step in if they feel discussions become inappropriate. But the overall assumption is still, I think, that communication on the list is and should be self-regulating. It appears to me that the measures outlined by Audrey under "Dealing with Bias" assume a different kind of governing body, one that intervenes in a regulatory capacity in a stronger fashion than has been the case so far. There would be upsides and downsides to such an approach (one downside being that perhaps rather few scholars could be persuaded to become a part of a governing body expected to exercise a far more active role than it has done so far), but I think this point merits explicit discussion. With best regards, Birgit Kellner Am 04.04.19 um 10:45 schrieb Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY: > Dear Colleagues and Friends, > > I have been heartened to see the supportive responses by many on this > listserv. It means a lot to see my colleagues - some of whom rarely or > never post on this list - trying to honestly grapple with our > problems, make sense of bias and its many forms, and talk about > possible steps for improvement. Going forward, I hope that we follow > up on John Nemec's suggestion to gather data about women in PhD > programs (and, perhaps, job placement thereafter, since hiring > processes often involve gender bias in the profession). I?also?draw > attention to Herman Tull's observation that many female Sanskritists > opt out of this forum; I hope that we continue to try to change the > listserv so that more women find it a welcoming forum. > > Thus far, the INDOLOGY governing committee has taken no steps to > address our problems with sexism and bias. I and others have made > concrete suggestions, and we have been met with silence. Two members > of the governing committee (besides myself) have e-mailed during this > discussion; neither response made any attempt to address the concerns > of bias and sexism raised by myself and other list members. This is > unsurprising. Inaction and flat denial of any problem are quite common > responses when women come forward with the dark side of what we face > in the academy. > > I suggest, again, the following concrete steps ought to be taken by > the INDOLOGY governing committee. > (1) Gender Parity. Numerous people have supported a call for gender > parity on the INDOLOGY governing committee (currently a 2:1 > male:female ratio). Let's move forward with that, now, and add 2 women. > (2) Dealing with Bias. It is unacceptable to go forward with the same > structures in place that have resulted in me experiencing, in my view, > sexist treatment, for months without recourse. We need a better > system. I have suggested conducting committee business openly or > shaking up membership on the committee. Jason Birch suggested a > grievance system with an outside mediator. We could do all of those > things, or some of them. A key point is this: The INDOLOGY governing > committee needs to be committed to taking action and showing > leadership in openly trying to implement some of these suggestions and > thereby make the governing committee and the list a more equitable place. > > There has been ample support demonstrated by list members for action > on issues of possible bias on the INDOLOGY governing committee and > also interest in openly discussing, on the INDOLOGY list, a wide range > of issues concerning sexism and discrimination. I thank those who have > spoken up thus far, and I invite everyone else to please join us in > making our small corner of the academy a more equitable place. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:21 AM Michael Brattus Jones > > wrote: > > Dear List, > > > I support parity on the governing board. It would be a small > action with a great effect, and I don't believe I've read any > arguments directly against it. > > > I happen to follow Dr. Truschke on Twitter and I've seen the > terrible abuses she endures there, as a result of discussing her > academic work. I'm not comparing this forum with that one, but it > does underscore the need for this forum to strive to seem as safe > a place as possible, whether or not people see eye to eye on any > specific issues. > > > Thank you, > > Michael Brattus Jones, Ph.D. > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > > > wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, > worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY > governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on > the committee for six years). Other committee members have > warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that > I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go > against their explicit instructions here. > > I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing > committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of > discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied > to male and female members of the committee and list. I have > tried many times to raise these issues internally among the > committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been > met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, > declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive > issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out > refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline > has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination > against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The > issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee > are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that > systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology > or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we > must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made > numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in > this regard, including striving for gender parity on the > committee by adding more female members, conducting committee > business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing > bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these > suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle > the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to > make the committee or the list a more equitable place. > > Last week, following another case where I documented and > called out a committee member for acting with bias, that > committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he > would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, > if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate > against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion > highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I > will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I > keep quiet. > > I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for > shedding light on the dark underbelly of the > INDOLOGY?governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow > committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list > at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in > this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, > and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to > overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is > time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism > facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, > including in running this listserv. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the > list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- --- Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner Director Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 1020 Wien / Vienna Austria Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 10:35:52 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 12:35:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: <16bd4007-63d0-db42-8734-6b1f0b970409@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: Dear Birgit and All, To clarify - I am not advocating an expansion of the committee's job in regulating INDOLOGY. I am suggesting measures designed to prevent what I have experienced, internally on the committee, from happening again, to me or to anybody else. Inappropriate, biased behavior can occur anywhere, even on a committee with a limited function. I understand the point about not having all sides of the story. I would gently point out - Nobody on this list needs to adjudicate the past in order to advocate some basic checks on potential bias and abuse going forward. Given that most of us agree that bias is a significant issue throughout our discipline and the academy, I think we should all be in favor of basic measures to prevent and address it here. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:16 PM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear everyone, > > I am in full agreement that bias in Academia is something that needs to be > addressed. Like others, I feel I'm not in a place to comment on the > situation that Audrey Tuschke experienced. We have not heard from everyone > on the committee, and I am also not sure whether this forum is the right > place for resolving tensions in the committee. > > My concern is now with a more fundamental matter as far as the list and > its relationship to the committee is concerned. It seems to me that Audrey > Tuschke's proposal calls for a much stronger function of the committee than > it has had (and exercised) so far. > > Having served on the committee myself for several years, I can only > confirm what Dominik outlined in a previous post: the committee actually > has a very minimal function. Its main task is to administer membership. It > does not regulate communication on the list in a particularly strong > fashion. Committee members on occasion step in if they feel discussions > become inappropriate. But the overall assumption is still, I think, that > communication on the list is and should be self-regulating. > > It appears to me that the measures outlined by Audrey under "Dealing with > Bias" assume a different kind of governing body, one that intervenes in a > regulatory capacity in a stronger fashion than has been the case so far. > There would be upsides and downsides to such an approach (one downside > being that perhaps rather few scholars could be persuaded to become a part > of a governing body expected to exercise a far more active role than it has > done so far), but I think this point merits explicit discussion. > > With best regards, > > Birgit Kellner > > > Am 04.04.19 um 10:45 schrieb Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY: > > Dear Colleagues and Friends, > > I have been heartened to see the supportive responses by many on this > listserv. It means a lot to see my colleagues - some of whom rarely or > never post on this list - trying to honestly grapple with our problems, > make sense of bias and its many forms, and talk about possible steps for > improvement. Going forward, I hope that we follow up on John Nemec's > suggestion to gather data about women in PhD programs (and, perhaps, job > placement thereafter, since hiring processes often involve gender bias in > the profession). I also draw attention to Herman Tull's observation that > many female Sanskritists opt out of this forum; I hope that we continue to > try to change the listserv so that more women find it a welcoming forum. > > Thus far, the INDOLOGY governing committee has taken no steps to address > our problems with sexism and bias. I and others have made concrete > suggestions, and we have been met with silence. Two members of the > governing committee (besides myself) have e-mailed during this discussion; > neither response made any attempt to address the concerns of bias and > sexism raised by myself and other list members. This is unsurprising. > Inaction and flat denial of any problem are quite common responses when > women come forward with the dark side of what we face in the academy. > > I suggest, again, the following concrete steps ought to be taken by the > INDOLOGY governing committee. > (1) Gender Parity. Numerous people have supported a call for gender parity > on the INDOLOGY governing committee (currently a 2:1 male:female ratio). > Let's move forward with that, now, and add 2 women. > (2) Dealing with Bias. It is unacceptable to go forward with the same > structures in place that have resulted in me experiencing, in my view, > sexist treatment, for months without recourse. We need a better system. I > have suggested conducting committee business openly or shaking up > membership on the committee. Jason Birch suggested a grievance system with > an outside mediator. We could do all of those things, or some of them. A > key point is this: The INDOLOGY governing committee needs to be committed > to taking action and showing leadership in openly trying to implement some > of these suggestions and thereby make the governing committee and the list > a more equitable place. > > There has been ample support demonstrated by list members for action on > issues of possible bias on the INDOLOGY governing committee and also > interest in openly discussing, on the INDOLOGY list, a wide range of issues > concerning sexism and discrimination. I thank those who have spoken up thus > far, and I invite everyone else to please join us in making our small > corner of the academy a more equitable place. > > All the best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:21 AM Michael Brattus Jones > wrote: > >> Dear List, >> >> >> I support parity on the governing board. It would be a small action with >> a great effect, and I don't believe I've read any arguments directly >> against it. >> >> >> I happen to follow Dr. Truschke on Twitter and I've seen the terrible >> abuses she endures there, as a result of discussing her academic work. I'm >> not comparing this forum with that one, but it does underscore the need for >> this forum to strive to seem as safe a place as possible, whether or not >> people see eye to eye on any specific issues. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Michael Brattus Jones, Ph.D. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> >>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>> explicit instructions here. >>> >>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>> list a more equitable place. >>> >>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>> >>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > > > > --- > Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner > Director > Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia > Austrian Academy of Sciences > Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 > 1020 Wien / Vienna > Austria > Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 > Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Thu Apr 4 11:29:51 2019 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 11:29:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I still don't understand where the potential bias is -- in disagreement over who may become a member? What is it that members disagree on that is gender-sensitive and could benefit from more female voices, or could be biased in some other way so would need any other kind of voices (i.e, a member from India)? Again, not rhetorical questions. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:35:52 AM To: Birgit Kellner Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Dear Birgit and All, To clarify - I am not advocating an expansion of the committee's job in regulating INDOLOGY. I am suggesting measures designed to prevent what I have experienced, internally on the committee, from happening again, to me or to anybody else. Inappropriate, biased behavior can occur anywhere, even on a committee with a limited function. I understand the point about not having all sides of the story. I would gently point out - Nobody on this list needs to adjudicate the past in order to advocate some basic checks on potential bias and abuse going forward. Given that most of us agree that bias is a significant issue throughout our discipline and the academy, I think we should all be in favor of basic measures to prevent and address it here. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:16 PM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear everyone, I am in full agreement that bias in Academia is something that needs to be addressed. Like others, I feel I'm not in a place to comment on the situation that Audrey Tuschke experienced. We have not heard from everyone on the committee, and I am also not sure whether this forum is the right place for resolving tensions in the committee. My concern is now with a more fundamental matter as far as the list and its relationship to the committee is concerned. It seems to me that Audrey Tuschke's proposal calls for a much stronger function of the committee than it has had (and exercised) so far. Having served on the committee myself for several years, I can only confirm what Dominik outlined in a previous post: the committee actually has a very minimal function. Its main task is to administer membership. It does not regulate communication on the list in a particularly strong fashion. Committee members on occasion step in if they feel discussions become inappropriate. But the overall assumption is still, I think, that communication on the list is and should be self-regulating. It appears to me that the measures outlined by Audrey under "Dealing with Bias" assume a different kind of governing body, one that intervenes in a regulatory capacity in a stronger fashion than has been the case so far. There would be upsides and downsides to such an approach (one downside being that perhaps rather few scholars could be persuaded to become a part of a governing body expected to exercise a far more active role than it has done so far), but I think this point merits explicit discussion. With best regards, Birgit Kellner Am 04.04.19 um 10:45 schrieb Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY: Dear Colleagues and Friends, I have been heartened to see the supportive responses by many on this listserv. It means a lot to see my colleagues - some of whom rarely or never post on this list - trying to honestly grapple with our problems, make sense of bias and its many forms, and talk about possible steps for improvement. Going forward, I hope that we follow up on John Nemec's suggestion to gather data about women in PhD programs (and, perhaps, job placement thereafter, since hiring processes often involve gender bias in the profession). I also draw attention to Herman Tull's observation that many female Sanskritists opt out of this forum; I hope that we continue to try to change the listserv so that more women find it a welcoming forum. Thus far, the INDOLOGY governing committee has taken no steps to address our problems with sexism and bias. I and others have made concrete suggestions, and we have been met with silence. Two members of the governing committee (besides myself) have e-mailed during this discussion; neither response made any attempt to address the concerns of bias and sexism raised by myself and other list members. This is unsurprising. Inaction and flat denial of any problem are quite common responses when women come forward with the dark side of what we face in the academy. I suggest, again, the following concrete steps ought to be taken by the INDOLOGY governing committee. (1) Gender Parity. Numerous people have supported a call for gender parity on the INDOLOGY governing committee (currently a 2:1 male:female ratio). Let's move forward with that, now, and add 2 women. (2) Dealing with Bias. It is unacceptable to go forward with the same structures in place that have resulted in me experiencing, in my view, sexist treatment, for months without recourse. We need a better system. I have suggested conducting committee business openly or shaking up membership on the committee. Jason Birch suggested a grievance system with an outside mediator. We could do all of those things, or some of them. A key point is this: The INDOLOGY governing committee needs to be committed to taking action and showing leadership in openly trying to implement some of these suggestions and thereby make the governing committee and the list a more equitable place. There has been ample support demonstrated by list members for action on issues of possible bias on the INDOLOGY governing committee and also interest in openly discussing, on the INDOLOGY list, a wide range of issues concerning sexism and discrimination. I thank those who have spoken up thus far, and I invite everyone else to please join us in making our small corner of the academy a more equitable place. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:21 AM Michael Brattus Jones > wrote: Dear List, I support parity on the governing board. It would be a small action with a great effect, and I don't believe I've read any arguments directly against it. I happen to follow Dr. Truschke on Twitter and I've seen the terrible abuses she endures there, as a result of discussing her academic work. I'm not comparing this forum with that one, but it does underscore the need for this forum to strive to seem as safe a place as possible, whether or not people see eye to eye on any specific issues. Thank you, Michael Brattus Jones, Ph.D. On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their explicit instructions here. I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the list a more equitable place. Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every turn, including in running this listserv. All the best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- --- Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner Director Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 1020 Wien / Vienna Austria Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 4 13:01:54 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 06:01:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????????? ????? ????? ????????????? ? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? Krishna who was all alone [at the beginning of creation], wishing to celebrate Holi, playfully created Gokula along with Radha. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Thu Apr 4 13:55:44 2019 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Harry Falk) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 15:55:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <51868.130.133.8.114.1554386144.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> > to prevent what I > have experienced, internally on the committee, Reading for (precious) hours and trying to find our whether my sense for the meaning of texts in English has vanished into thin air: WHAT has happened? WHO has said what TO WHOM? > Inappropriate, biased behavior This sounds terrible and must certainly be condemned. Maybe US academics know by these terms alone what was said or done, but old-style Europeans do not. Where and how does "biased" start? Name the culprit(s)! Tell how they misbehaved! No quarter, no mercy. Or should we plan for two INDOLOGY lists, one for the ladies and one for men? The question for quota inside the two committees would then be answered. Best, Harry Falk From arash.zeini at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 14:02:39 2019 From: arash.zeini at gmail.com (Arash Zeini) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 16:02:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, I am not in a position to say anything about the issues that Dr Truschke has raised on this list. When it comes to that, I find myself agreeing with Dr Uskokov's above e-mail. I am generally very careful when it comes to gender bias. I don't deny its existence, but I don't believe that such issues are solved by adding female voices. Gender bias is in my view often the result of unbalanced or inappropriately distributed power structures. The same people that abuse female colleagues tend to abuse also less powerful male colleagues. This observation does not acquit them, but I find adding female voices does not automatically result in a better working environment, if the power structures remain in place. If we discuss gender, I would suggest we discuss it in terms of diversity. Incidentally, today I came across an interesting read on the Guardian that highlights the issue: "The books that had beat Cole [my addition: author of colour] as finalists in the best short historical romance category were all by white women, all but one set in 19th-century Britain, featuring white women [note lack of diversity] who fall in love with aristocrats. The heroes were, respectively, one ?rogue?, two dukes, two lords and an earl. What followed, on Twitter, was an outpouring of grief and frustration from black authors and other authors of colour, describing the racism they had faced again and again in the romance industry." I am not suggesting that the committee needs to be regulated the way Dr Truschke suggests. For that I don't have enough information. However, if there is a need for change, I would suggest we start talking about diversity rather than limiting ourselves to gender bias. I would wish to see more Indians, people from diverse backgrounds and more "lowly" positioned academics within the committee along with gender parity. Best wishes, Arash On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 13:30, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I still don't understand where the potential bias is -- in disagreement > over who may become a member? What is it that members disagree on that is > gender-sensitive and could benefit from more female voices, or could be > biased in some other way so would need any other kind of voices (i.e, a > member from India)? Again, not rhetorical questions. > > Get Outlook for Android > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:35:52 AM > *To:* Birgit Kellner > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee > > Dear Birgit and All, > > To clarify - I am not advocating an expansion of the committee's job in > regulating INDOLOGY. I am suggesting measures designed to prevent what I > have experienced, internally on the committee, from happening again, to me > or to anybody else. Inappropriate, biased behavior can occur anywhere, even > on a committee with a limited function. > > I understand the point about not having all sides of the story. I would > gently point out - Nobody on this list needs to adjudicate the past in > order to advocate some basic checks on potential bias and abuse going > forward. Given that most of us agree that bias is a significant issue > throughout our discipline and the academy, I think we should all be in > favor of basic measures to prevent and address it here. > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:16 PM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear everyone, >> >> I am in full agreement that bias in Academia is something that needs to >> be addressed. Like others, I feel I'm not in a place to comment on the >> situation that Audrey Tuschke experienced. We have not heard from everyone >> on the committee, and I am also not sure whether this forum is the right >> place for resolving tensions in the committee. >> >> My concern is now with a more fundamental matter as far as the list and >> its relationship to the committee is concerned. It seems to me that Audrey >> Tuschke's proposal calls for a much stronger function of the committee than >> it has had (and exercised) so far. >> >> Having served on the committee myself for several years, I can only >> confirm what Dominik outlined in a previous post: the committee actually >> has a very minimal function. Its main task is to administer membership. It >> does not regulate communication on the list in a particularly strong >> fashion. Committee members on occasion step in if they feel discussions >> become inappropriate. But the overall assumption is still, I think, that >> communication on the list is and should be self-regulating. >> >> It appears to me that the measures outlined by Audrey under "Dealing with >> Bias" assume a different kind of governing body, one that intervenes in a >> regulatory capacity in a stronger fashion than has been the case so far. >> There would be upsides and downsides to such an approach (one downside >> being that perhaps rather few scholars could be persuaded to become a part >> of a governing body expected to exercise a far more active role than it has >> done so far), but I think this point merits explicit discussion. >> >> With best regards, >> >> Birgit Kellner >> >> >> Am 04.04.19 um 10:45 schrieb Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY: >> >> Dear Colleagues and Friends, >> >> I have been heartened to see the supportive responses by many on this >> listserv. It means a lot to see my colleagues - some of whom rarely or >> never post on this list - trying to honestly grapple with our problems, >> make sense of bias and its many forms, and talk about possible steps for >> improvement. Going forward, I hope that we follow up on John Nemec's >> suggestion to gather data about women in PhD programs (and, perhaps, job >> placement thereafter, since hiring processes often involve gender bias in >> the profession). I also draw attention to Herman Tull's observation that >> many female Sanskritists opt out of this forum; I hope that we continue to >> try to change the listserv so that more women find it a welcoming forum. >> >> Thus far, the INDOLOGY governing committee has taken no steps to address >> our problems with sexism and bias. I and others have made concrete >> suggestions, and we have been met with silence. Two members of the >> governing committee (besides myself) have e-mailed during this discussion; >> neither response made any attempt to address the concerns of bias and >> sexism raised by myself and other list members. This is unsurprising. >> Inaction and flat denial of any problem are quite common responses when >> women come forward with the dark side of what we face in the academy. >> >> I suggest, again, the following concrete steps ought to be taken by the >> INDOLOGY governing committee. >> (1) Gender Parity. Numerous people have supported a call for gender >> parity on the INDOLOGY governing committee (currently a 2:1 male:female >> ratio). Let's move forward with that, now, and add 2 women. >> (2) Dealing with Bias. It is unacceptable to go forward with the same >> structures in place that have resulted in me experiencing, in my view, >> sexist treatment, for months without recourse. We need a better system. I >> have suggested conducting committee business openly or shaking up >> membership on the committee. Jason Birch suggested a grievance system with >> an outside mediator. We could do all of those things, or some of them. A >> key point is this: The INDOLOGY governing committee needs to be committed >> to taking action and showing leadership in openly trying to implement some >> of these suggestions and thereby make the governing committee and the list >> a more equitable place. >> >> There has been ample support demonstrated by list members for action on >> issues of possible bias on the INDOLOGY governing committee and also >> interest in openly discussing, on the INDOLOGY list, a wide range of issues >> concerning sexism and discrimination. I thank those who have spoken up thus >> far, and I invite everyone else to please join us in making our small >> corner of the academy a more equitable place. >> >> All the best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:21 AM Michael Brattus Jones >> wrote: >> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> >>> I support parity on the governing board. It would be a small action with >>> a great effect, and I don't believe I've read any arguments directly >>> against it. >>> >>> >>> I happen to follow Dr. Truschke on Twitter and I've seen the terrible >>> abuses she endures there, as a result of discussing her academic work. I'm >>> not comparing this forum with that one, but it does underscore the need for >>> this forum to strive to seem as safe a place as possible, whether or not >>> people see eye to eye on any specific issues. >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Michael Brattus Jones, Ph.D. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 12:56 AM Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I am writing to call your attention to the entrenched, worsening sexism >>>> I have been experiencing on the INDOLOGY governing committee over the past >>>> year or so (I have served on the committee for six years). Other committee >>>> members have warned me not to publicly discuss the bullying and abuse that >>>> I have faced from them in private. I break my silence and go against their >>>> explicit instructions here. >>>> >>>> I have repeatedly faced sexism within the INDOLOGY governing committee, >>>> ranging from patronizing comments to silencing of discussions about bias to >>>> overtly different standards applied to male and female members of the >>>> committee and list. I have tried many times to raise these issues >>>> internally among the committee and privately with specific individuals. I >>>> have been met with blanket denials, belittling of my concerns, declarations >>>> that discussing sexism is not a substantive issue, accusations of being a >>>> troublemaker, and flat out refusals to discuss gender issues. Indology as a >>>> discipline has deep-seated issues with male privilege, discrimination >>>> against female scholars, and even outright misogyny. The issues within >>>> INDOLOGY's male-dominated governing committee are arguably a reflection of >>>> this larger set of problems that systematically drives women out of the >>>> discipline. If Indology or INDOLOGY are going to survive in any worthwhile >>>> form, we must face our ongoing issues of sexism and bias. I have made >>>> numerous suggestions to the INDOLOGY governing committee in this regard, >>>> including striving for gender parity on the committee by adding more female >>>> members, conducting committee business more openly as a check on bullying, >>>> and undergoing bias training. I hope the committee follows up on these >>>> suggestions. But, to date, I have seen only a desire to circle the wagons >>>> and deny bias, rather than any serious attempt to make the committee or the >>>> list a more equitable place. >>>> >>>> Last week, following another case where I documented and called out a >>>> committee member for acting with bias, that committee member wrote that if >>>> he were in my position, he would consider resigning from the committee. In >>>> other words, if I find members of the INDOLOGY committee discriminate >>>> against women, then I should bow out. I find that suggestion highly >>>> inappropriate, and I do not acquiesce to it here. But I will no longer >>>> serve as a punching bag for men who insist I keep quiet. >>>> >>>> I expect to face significant pushback and recriminations for shedding >>>> light on the dark underbelly of the INDOLOGY governing committee. But, >>>> unlike many of my fellow committee members, I think that this is an issue >>>> for the list at large. Many of us, myself included, find scholarly value in >>>> this listserv. But knowledge exists within power structures, and I find >>>> that I can no longer stomach what I have to overlook in order to quietly >>>> run this forum. I think it is time for us to talk about the key issues of >>>> bias and sexism facing our discipline that make women unwelcome at every >>>> turn, including in running this listserv. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Audrey >>>> >>>> Audrey Truschke >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of History >>>> Rutgers University-Newark >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> -- >> >> >> >> --- >> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner >> Director >> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia >> Austrian Academy of Sciences >> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 >> 1020 Wien / Vienna >> Austria >> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 >> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu Thu Apr 4 15:31:32 2019 From: loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 15:31:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clarification Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, First, I want to express appreciation to Dominik (and Patrick McAllister) for all the work done to to make the list possible. It is much appreciated by many, including myself, even if I am mostly just a lurker?it is how I have access to Madhav?s delightful verses. I also support other voices to expand the committee to include other geographical areas, specifically India, specifically, with a woman to achieve gender parity. I recognize that it is not currently a governing body, but still, the formation of a committee signals a kind of representational status and ideology with it. Even if the responsibilities are negligible, still it feels odd that on an Indology list, no one located in India sits on the committee. All best, Loriliai Biernacki CU Boulder sits upon land within the territories of the Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho peoples, and 48 contemporary tribal nations are historically tied to the lands that make up the state of Colorado. From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Dominik Wujastyk > Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 2:06 PM To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Clarification Request Dear Aleksandar, Speaking for myself, from my own experience the committee does just what you say. It's rather pedestrian: * We process membership requests, which means reading applicants' short CVs and voting "yes" or "no." When there are borderline cases, they get discussed before voting. This is the main activity of the committee. * We process requests from members to update their email addresses and to solve technical issues with the Mailserve software, for example when mails bounce because a member's mailbox is full, or when a member posts from an email address different from their registration. This is the second most time-consuming committee activity. * On the rare occasions when there are contentious posts to the public INDOLOGY forum, we discuss whether or not intervention is likely to help or hinder the conversation and what we might try. Intervention is rare (once a year?) and, in my experience, usually ineffective. :-) * Once in a blue moon, we discuss inviting one or more new members to join the committee, usually when someone steps down. Things I do personally: * Once a quarter, I pay the rent for the disk space we use, the bandwidth and the Mailserve hosting service, and the DNS name registration. I've always just done this; I don't discuss this with the committee. * I update the indology.info website sporadically in response to new information or corrections; I'm not very proud of the website, which is a bit old-fashioned in 2019, and not really comprehensive. I have lots of doubts about the website's function and content, but I also have no time to reconceive and update it. When there are tech problems with it, Patrick Mc Allister kindly and expertly solves them. (Thank you, Patrick!) Things the committee doesn't do: * We don't moderate the forum. When a member posts a message to the forum, it immediately goes straight out to all 762 members without intervention. The committee has no privileged control over the conversations in the forum. * We don't normally discuss what is going on in the public INDOLOGY forum. As individuals, we participate in the INDOLOGY forum discussions just like everyone else. The current committee consists of five active members, Audrey, Wendy, Philipp, Stefan and myself, as listed on the indology.info website. Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 5 04:39:35 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 23:39:35 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Adichanallur and Keezhadi Message-ID: The list members may be interested in the following news. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Madurai/adichanallur-site-belongs-to-a-period-between-905-and-696-bc-madurai-high-court/article26737779.ece This was a result of earlier court directive as can be seen below. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Madurai/asi-asked-to-send-adichanallur-samples-for-carbon-dating-madurai-adichanallur/article26305794.ece Both with respect to Adichanallur site and with respect to Keezhadi site, the Indian government?s actions/inactions have led to strong protests in Tamil Nadu and only judiciary?s intervention seems to help. See the case of the Keezhadi site, https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/keezhadi-excavations-madras-high-court-orders-transfer-of-asi-officer-amarnath-ramakrishna-back-to-tamil-nadu/articleshow/68428874.cms. Here is a report on Keezhadi by the excavators, http://www.heritageuniversityofkerala.com/JournalPDF/Volume6/2.pdf. Regards, Palaniappan From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Apr 5 04:51:16 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 19 23:51:16 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Adichanallur and Keezhadi Message-ID: The following article may be of interest to the list too. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/reconstructing-the-material-culture-of-tamilakam-and-beyond/articleshow/66872734.cms Regards, Palaniappan ?On 4/4/19, 11:40 PM, "INDOLOGY on behalf of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY" wrote: The list members may be interested in the following news. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Madurai/adichanallur-site-belongs-to-a-period-between-905-and-696-bc-madurai-high-court/article26737779.ece This was a result of earlier court directive as can be seen below. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Madurai/asi-asked-to-send-adichanallur-samples-for-carbon-dating-madurai-adichanallur/article26305794.ece Both with respect to Adichanallur site and with respect to Keezhadi site, the Indian government?s actions/inactions have led to strong protests in Tamil Nadu and only judiciary?s intervention seems to help. See the case of the Keezhadi site, https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/keezhadi-excavations-madras-high-court-orders-transfer-of-asi-officer-amarnath-ramakrishna-back-to-tamil-nadu/articleshow/68428874.cms. Here is a report on Keezhadi by the excavators, http://www.heritageuniversityofkerala.com/JournalPDF/Volume6/2.pdf. Regards, Palaniappan _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 04:52:37 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 10:22:37 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: <51868.130.133.8.114.1554386144.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: Since the 'specific' instance mentioned by Dr Truschke was pertaining to Prof. Dominik Wujastyk's individual message to me that was later brought to the notice of the list by Dr Truschke, I thought it may be pertinent to share what continued after that message from Prof. Wujastyk to me. To that message, I responded to Prof. Wujastyk and the Indology-owner id as follows: I honour your instruction , Prof. Dominik Wujastyk. Prof. Wujastyk responded to me as follows: Dear Professor Paturi, I'm really grateful for your gracious response. As you saw in the INDOLOGY post from Audrey Truschke, she was cross with me for writing to you, and she said she doesn't agree that I should have done so. On reflection, I think I was wrong in an important respect respect: I didn't check with the other committee members before writing under the "committee" name. And I was a bit impulsive. My message had nothing to do with you personally, in fact. I was looking at the overall volume of messages on the list and thinking about the signal-to-noise ratio of list posts. I also worry about the fact that individual posts to the list nowadays append multiple copies of all the previous messages posted on that topic. I personally pay for the storage of all archived messages out of my own pocket and also the network bandwidth used by the conversations, which rises every year. So I do have general concerns about conciseness and economy of expression in the forum. I have written to others in the past with some of these concerns. It's probably a Quixotic quest: few people today think about these issues of economic data usage, although they were a major topic when the internet was new. Perhaps I'm a dinosour in this respect. Thank you again, With best regards, Dominik Wujastyk I responded to him and the Indology-owner id as follows: Dear Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, You need not explain that this far. I understand your good intentions and your difficult task and responsibility as the moderator. I did what I thought is the best way a member can help the manager run a forum. I thought responses such as thanking a member give happiness to the member only when done in public. This thought came to me because I several times received thanking , admiring and other such positive responses from the members as individual mails to me and wondered about what was stopping them from making such expressions in public. This message from you increased my respect for you since it reveals a great gentle and gracious attitude on your part. Thanking you for reaching out to me. Warm regards, Nagaraj On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:53 AM Harry Falk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > to prevent what I > > have experienced, internally on the committee, > > Reading for (precious) hours and trying to find our whether my sense for > the meaning of texts in English has vanished into thin air: WHAT has > happened? WHO has said what TO WHOM? > > > Inappropriate, biased behavior > > This sounds terrible and must certainly be condemned. Maybe US academics > know by these terms alone what was said or done, but old-style Europeans > do not. Where and how does "biased" start? Name the culprit(s)! Tell how > they misbehaved! No quarter, no mercy. > Or should we plan for two INDOLOGY lists, one for the ladies and one for > men? The question for quota inside the two committees would then be > answered. > Best, > Harry Falk > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:49:59 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 09:49:59 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution Message-ID: Dear Dominik I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know about it? Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 08:35:14 2019 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 08:35:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Message-ID: In the context of this discussion, if the financial generosity of certain individuals is to be announced on the list, perhaps it would be appropriate for this to be accompanied by details about how much those individuals get paid, and how much they imagine they would get paid if they were of a different gender. Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vajpeyi at csds.in Fri Apr 5 09:40:56 2019 From: vajpeyi at csds.in (Ananya Vajpeyi) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 12:40:56 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY giverning committee Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The discussions on gender parity in the work space, sexual harassment, "me too" and creating more respectful, equitable and enabling environments for women at home and at work are global and ubiquitous today. It's absolutely in keeping with these debates unfolding all around us in practically every profession, institution and cultural context that we should have our own conversation here on Indology. Whether it's looking at power imbalances, sexism, misogyny and inequality in the texts we read, or in the classrooms where we read them; between us as students, teachers, colleagues and friends; in the past or in the present; in India or outside, it's an important and necessary exchange to have and it's high time we had it amongst ourselves. Whatever our disagreements, I think it's an opportunity for us all to look within, clean up our act in our disciplinary settings, improve the functioning of our scholarly association and strengthen its rules and procedures, and go forward with -- well, for one thing, more women on board and a more open and frank approach to the problems that affect us all and take up our time and attention away from our beloved intellectual pursuits and pedagogical commitments. It's good to see that many of us have jumped in to this difficult space in good faith, believing that in the end we'll be the better for it. Seems to me we've already made some progress relative to when we had an earlier iteration of these and related topics last summer after the World Sanskrit Conference. Best wishes, Ananya Vajpeyi. -- Ananya Vajpeyi Fellow and Associate Professor Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines New Delhi 110054 INDIA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Fri Apr 5 08:41:47 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 08:41:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope this is ironic. If not, I think we have exhausted the topic. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: vrijdag 5 april 2019 10:35 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In the context of this discussion, if the financial generosity of certain individuals is to be announced on the list, perhaps it would be appropriate for this to be accompanied by details about how much those individuals get paid, and how much they imagine they would get paid if they were of a different gender. Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelleragathe600 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 11:43:03 2019 From: kelleragathe600 at gmail.com (Agathe Keller) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 04:43:03 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I may be reacting a bit too late, but I wanted to underline something Audrey Truschke suggested for the committee which is bias training. As a member of a university department with an ongoing investigation concerning sexual harassment, I can assure you that bias training if well done is an eye opener for all, minority and women included. As scholars we know that only the ignorant are dead sure that they don?t need to learn what they are ignorant of. I believe that we all are actually in the process of understanding how deeply biases are and have affected the way we work- and training can help us assess this and help us overcome (some of) it. I want to add that the collective response to try to make things better on this list, the collective working out of problem is a heart warmer and gives much hope for the future of our field! In our French History of Science list, a similar problem ended up precisely with a whole group leaving the list because of the violent misogynistic attacks that were not moderated and seemed to have the approval of the majority and notably the creator fo the list. Indology can do better of course, but Indology can be proud of itself nonetheless! best Agathe From: Ananya Vajpeyi via INDOLOGY Reply: Ananya Vajpeyi Date: 5 April 2019 at 10:40:52 To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY giverning committee Dear Colleagues, The discussions on gender parity in the work space, sexual harassment, "me too" and creating more respectful, equitable and enabling environments for women at home and at work are global and ubiquitous today. It's absolutely in keeping with these debates unfolding all around us in practically every profession, institution and cultural context that we should have our own conversation here on Indology. Whether it's looking at power imbalances, sexism, misogyny and inequality in the texts we read, or in the classrooms where we read them; between us as students, teachers, colleagues and friends; in the past or in the present; in India or outside, it's an important and necessary exchange to have and it's high time we had it amongst ourselves. Whatever our disagreements, I think it's an opportunity for us all to look within, clean up our act in our disciplinary settings, improve the functioning of our scholarly association and strengthen its rules and procedures, and go forward with -- well, for one thing, more women on board and a more open and frank approach to the problems that affect us all and take up our time and attention away from our beloved intellectual pursuits and pedagogical commitments. It's good to see that many of us have jumped in to this difficult space in good faith, believing that in the end we'll be the better for it. Seems to me we've already made some progress relative to when we had an earlier iteration of these and related topics last summer after the World Sanskrit Conference. Best wishes, Ananya Vajpeyi. -- Ananya Vajpeyi Fellow and Associate Professor Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines New Delhi 110054 INDIA _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 13:13:42 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 06:13:42 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, My reaction is similar to Jonathan's. I would be willing to contribute toward the cost of maintaining the Indology list. Please consider setting up a way for us to share the cost. With best wishes, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:51 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik > I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in > reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I > agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have > said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would > be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and > I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this > is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? > Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know > about it? > > Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 13:22:09 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 06:22:09 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????????? ???? ?????? ? ??????? ? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ??????? Krishna is Krishna. Krishna is Radha, and Krishna is Gokula. Krishna plays Holi assuming many different forms. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:50:10 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 08:50:10 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav and Jonathan, it's kind of you to offer, and I imagine many other people would be equally willing to contribute if I put a big Patreon button on the website. Over the years and with the help of various committees membersI have thought about different business models for the list. I don't know if you remember, but at one time I tried to run a little Amazon bookshop on the website, with curated indological titles. I would have got a fraction of a cent for each Amazon sale through that channel. But it didn't meet a real need and wasn't used. At another time I had some website pages at indology.info that listed publishers. Charging for that would have been a more obvious way of getting some income, but I never wanted the entanglement with billing, correspondence, tax, etc. So that was always a free service to publishers and eventually I decided just not to do it. Another obvious model would be to bring the forum into H-Asia, and we nearly did that, some years back. However, H-Asia imposes some limits on what a member-list can do, including having to pay to post job advertisements, and we didn't want those kinds of stricture. Another model would be to use a university-hosted Mailman installation. After all, INDOLOGY enjoyed the generous and free support of the U. of Liverpool for many years when it first started. But I have moved around different institutions in my career, and my experience has been that universities have short memories where digital support is concerned. You set something up, and then five years later you get sharp emails from the service admins saying that they are going to pull the plug. UCL was very bad when I left, deleting my files without notice. Vienna has been better, that way. I think I was traumatized by the whole BlackBox affair in the mid-90s, when the U. of Washington summarily deleted all the marvellous indological materials that had been made public for years by Tom Ridgeway[* ]. Since then, I've never really trusted university computing departments to have a long view. University libraries are institutionally concerned with long-term preservation, but libraries curate static data, not functioning services. So I arrived at the counter-intuitive position that running the website and Mailman as a private individual was likely to provide a more stable and long-lasting environment than working with a university. It is also the path of least resistance to just keep the service afloat and not to bother myself or others with all the complications of collecting money. This takes the least number of brain cycles for me, and leaves me most free to actually do the things I love, including indology. I'm now a bit sorry I mentioned it publicly, but I was writing hastily and in a spirit of full disclosure. Something that I failed to mention in my response about how the committee works is that we have a weekly rota. I think everyone knows this, but members of the committee take weekly turns being on duty. So at any one time, only one of the committee members deals with correspondence or other tasks (but we all vote on issues and applications all the time). Thanks again! Dominik On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:14, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik, > > My reaction is similar to Jonathan's. I would be willing to > contribute toward the cost of maintaining the Indology list. Please > consider setting up a way for us to share the cost. With best wishes, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:51 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Dominik >> I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in >> reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I >> agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have >> said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would >> be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and >> I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this >> is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? >> Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know >> about it? >> >> Jonathan >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 16:10:02 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 16:10:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, Still, I?d be happy to help with the expenses too. Best wishes, Camillo From: Dominik Wujastyk Sent: 05 April 2019 15:50 To: Madhav Deshpande Cc: Jonathan Silk ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution Dear Madhav and Jonathan, it's kind of you to offer, and I imagine many other people would be equally willing to contribute if I put a big Patreon button on the website. Over the years and with the help of various committees membersI have thought about different business models for the list. I don't know if you remember, but at one time I tried to run a little Amazon bookshop on the website, with curated indological titles. I would have got a fraction of a cent for each Amazon sale through that channel. But it didn't meet a real need and wasn't used. At another time I had some website pages at indology.info that listed publishers. Charging for that would have been a more obvious way of getting some income, but I never wanted the entanglement with billing, correspondence, tax, etc. So that was always a free service to publishers and eventually I decided just not to do it. Another obvious model would be to bring the forum into H-Asia, and we nearly did that, some years back. However, H-Asia imposes some limits on what a member-list can do, including having to pay to post job advertisements, and we didn't want those kinds of stricture. Another model would be to use a university-hosted Mailman installation. After all, INDOLOGY enjoyed the generous and free support of the U. of Liverpool for many years when it first started. But I have moved around different institutions in my career, and my experience has been that universities have short memories where digital support is concerned. You set something up, and then five years later you get sharp emails from the service admins saying that they are going to pull the plug. UCL was very bad when I left, deleting my files without notice. Vienna has been better, that way. I think I was traumatized by the whole BlackBox affair in the mid-90s, when the U. of Washington summarily deleted all the marvellous indological materials that had been made public for years by Tom Ridgeway[*]. Since then, I've never really trusted university computing departments to have a long view. University libraries are institutionally concerned with long-term preservation, but libraries curate static data, not functioning services. So I arrived at the counter-intuitive position that running the website and Mailman as a private individual was likely to provide a more stable and long-lasting environment than working with a university. It is also the path of least resistance to just keep the service afloat and not to bother myself or others with all the complications of collecting money. This takes the least number of brain cycles for me, and leaves me most free to actually do the things I love, including indology. I'm now a bit sorry I mentioned it publicly, but I was writing hastily and in a spirit of full disclosure. Something that I failed to mention in my response about how the committee works is that we have a weekly rota. I think everyone knows this, but members of the committee take weekly turns being on duty. So at any one time, only one of the committee members deals with correspondence or other tasks (but we all vote on issues and applications all the time). Thanks again! Dominik On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:14, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Dominik, My reaction is similar to Jonathan's. I would be willing to contribute toward the cost of maintaining the Indology list. Please consider setting up a way for us to share the cost. With best wishes, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:51 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Dominik I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know about it? Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:18:48 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 21:48:48 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik Wujastyk I second the opinions about bearing the expenses. KP On Fri 5 Apr, 2019, 9:40 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik, > > > > Still, I?d be happy to help with the expenses too. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > *From:* Dominik Wujastyk > *Sent:* 05 April 2019 15:50 > *To:* Madhav Deshpande > *Cc:* Jonathan Silk ; Indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution > > > > Dear Madhav and Jonathan, it's kind of you to offer, and I imagine many > other people would be equally willing to contribute if I put a big Patreon > button on the website. Over the years and with the help of various > committees membersI have thought about different business models for the > list. I don't know if you remember, but at one time I tried to run a little > Amazon bookshop on the website, with curated indological titles. I would > have got a fraction of a cent for each Amazon sale through that channel. > But it didn't meet a real need and wasn't used. At another time I had some > website pages at indology.info that listed publishers. Charging for that > would have been a more obvious way of getting some income, but I never > wanted the entanglement with billing, correspondence, tax, etc. So that > was always a free service to publishers and eventually I decided just not > to do it. Another obvious model would be to bring the forum into H-Asia, > and we nearly did that, some years back. However, H-Asia imposes some > limits on what a member-list can do, including having to pay to post job > advertisements, and we didn't want those kinds of stricture. Another model > would be to use a university-hosted Mailman installation. After all, > INDOLOGY enjoyed the generous and free support of the U. of Liverpool for > many years when it first started. But I have moved around different > institutions in my career, and my experience has been that universities > have short memories where digital support is concerned. You set something > up, and then five years later you get sharp emails from the service admins > saying that they are going to pull the plug. UCL was very bad when I left, > deleting my files without notice. Vienna has been better, that way. I > think I was traumatized by the whole BlackBox affair in the mid-90s, when > the U. of Washington summarily deleted all the marvellous indological > materials that had been made public for years by Tom Ridgeway[* > ]. > Since then, I've never really trusted university computing departments to > have a long view. University libraries are institutionally concerned with > long-term preservation, but libraries curate static data, not functioning > services. > > > > So I arrived at the counter-intuitive position that running the website > and Mailman as a private individual was likely to provide a more stable and > long-lasting environment than working with a university. It is also the > path of least resistance to just keep the service afloat and not to bother > myself or others with all the complications of collecting money. This > takes the least number of brain cycles for me, and leaves me most free to > actually do the things I love, including indology. I'm now a bit sorry I > mentioned it publicly, but I was writing hastily and in a spirit of full > disclosure. > > > > Something that I failed to mention in my response about how the committee > works is that we have a weekly rota. I think everyone knows this, but > members of the committee take weekly turns being on duty. So at any one > time, only one of the committee members deals with correspondence or other > tasks (but we all vote on issues and applications all the time). > > > > Thanks again! > > Dominik > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:14, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Dominik, > > > > My reaction is similar to Jonathan's. I would be willing to > contribute toward the cost of maintaining the Indology list. Please > consider setting up a way for us to share the cost. With best wishes, > > > Madhav M. Deshpande > > Professor Emeritus > > Sanskrit and Linguistics > > University of Michigan > > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:51 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Dominik > > I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in > reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I > agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have > said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would > be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and > I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this > is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? > Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know > about it? > > > > Jonathan > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 17:21:35 2019 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 19:21:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As do I (wish to contribute). Herman Tull On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 6:19 PM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik Wujastyk > I second the opinions about bearing the expenses. > KP > > On Fri 5 Apr, 2019, 9:40 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY, < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Dominik, >> >> >> >> Still, I?d be happy to help with the expenses too. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> >> *From:* Dominik Wujastyk >> *Sent:* 05 April 2019 15:50 >> *To:* Madhav Deshpande >> *Cc:* Jonathan Silk ; Indology < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution >> >> >> >> Dear Madhav and Jonathan, it's kind of you to offer, and I imagine many >> other people would be equally willing to contribute if I put a big Patreon >> button on the website. Over the years and with the help of various >> committees membersI have thought about different business models for the >> list. I don't know if you remember, but at one time I tried to run a little >> Amazon bookshop on the website, with curated indological titles. I would >> have got a fraction of a cent for each Amazon sale through that channel. >> But it didn't meet a real need and wasn't used. At another time I had some >> website pages at indology.info that listed publishers. Charging for >> that would have been a more obvious way of getting some income, but I never >> wanted the entanglement with billing, correspondence, tax, etc. So that >> was always a free service to publishers and eventually I decided just not >> to do it. Another obvious model would be to bring the forum into H-Asia, >> and we nearly did that, some years back. However, H-Asia imposes some >> limits on what a member-list can do, including having to pay to post job >> advertisements, and we didn't want those kinds of stricture. Another model >> would be to use a university-hosted Mailman installation. After all, >> INDOLOGY enjoyed the generous and free support of the U. of Liverpool for >> many years when it first started. But I have moved around different >> institutions in my career, and my experience has been that universities >> have short memories where digital support is concerned. You set something >> up, and then five years later you get sharp emails from the service admins >> saying that they are going to pull the plug. UCL was very bad when I left, >> deleting my files without notice. Vienna has been better, that way. I >> think I was traumatized by the whole BlackBox affair in the mid-90s, when >> the U. of Washington summarily deleted all the marvellous indological >> materials that had been made public for years by Tom Ridgeway[* >> ]. >> Since then, I've never really trusted university computing departments to >> have a long view. University libraries are institutionally concerned with >> long-term preservation, but libraries curate static data, not functioning >> services. >> >> >> >> So I arrived at the counter-intuitive position that running the website >> and Mailman as a private individual was likely to provide a more stable and >> long-lasting environment than working with a university. It is also the >> path of least resistance to just keep the service afloat and not to bother >> myself or others with all the complications of collecting money. This >> takes the least number of brain cycles for me, and leaves me most free to >> actually do the things I love, including indology. I'm now a bit sorry I >> mentioned it publicly, but I was writing hastily and in a spirit of full >> disclosure. >> >> >> >> Something that I failed to mention in my response about how the committee >> works is that we have a weekly rota. I think everyone knows this, but >> members of the committee take weekly turns being on duty. So at any one >> time, only one of the committee members deals with correspondence or other >> tasks (but we all vote on issues and applications all the time). >> >> >> >> Thanks again! >> >> Dominik >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:14, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Dominik, >> >> >> >> My reaction is similar to Jonathan's. I would be willing to >> contribute toward the cost of maintaining the Indology list. Please >> consider setting up a way for us to share the cost. With best wishes, >> >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> >> Professor Emeritus >> >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> >> University of Michigan >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:51 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Dominik >> >> I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in >> reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I >> agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have >> said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would >> be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and >> I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this >> is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? >> Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know >> about it? >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauthoff at ualberta.ca Fri Apr 5 18:20:14 2019 From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 12:20:14 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like to add my thanks to Dominik for footing the bill that makes this list run. While I too feel the right thing to do is to contribute to that bill, I also worry that even a voluntary monetary contribution could lead to issues of disparity and a feeling of ownership by some members that could lead to more conflict about what we should and should not discuss within the forum. On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:22 AM Herman Tull via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > As do I (wish to contribute). > > Herman Tull > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 6:19 PM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Dominik Wujastyk >> I second the opinions about bearing the expenses. >> KP >> >> On Fri 5 Apr, 2019, 9:40 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY, < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Dominik, >>> >>> >>> >>> Still, I?d be happy to help with the expenses too. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Camillo >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Dominik Wujastyk >>> *Sent:* 05 April 2019 15:50 >>> *To:* Madhav Deshpande >>> *Cc:* Jonathan Silk ; Indology < >>> indology at list.indology.info> >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Madhav and Jonathan, it's kind of you to offer, and I imagine many >>> other people would be equally willing to contribute if I put a big Patreon >>> button on the website. Over the years and with the help of various >>> committees membersI have thought about different business models for the >>> list. I don't know if you remember, but at one time I tried to run a little >>> Amazon bookshop on the website, with curated indological titles. I would >>> have got a fraction of a cent for each Amazon sale through that channel. >>> But it didn't meet a real need and wasn't used. At another time I had some >>> website pages at indology.info that listed publishers. Charging for >>> that would have been a more obvious way of getting some income, but I never >>> wanted the entanglement with billing, correspondence, tax, etc. So that >>> was always a free service to publishers and eventually I decided just not >>> to do it. Another obvious model would be to bring the forum into H-Asia, >>> and we nearly did that, some years back. However, H-Asia imposes some >>> limits on what a member-list can do, including having to pay to post job >>> advertisements, and we didn't want those kinds of stricture. Another model >>> would be to use a university-hosted Mailman installation. After all, >>> INDOLOGY enjoyed the generous and free support of the U. of Liverpool for >>> many years when it first started. But I have moved around different >>> institutions in my career, and my experience has been that universities >>> have short memories where digital support is concerned. You set something >>> up, and then five years later you get sharp emails from the service admins >>> saying that they are going to pull the plug. UCL was very bad when I left, >>> deleting my files without notice. Vienna has been better, that way. I >>> think I was traumatized by the whole BlackBox affair in the mid-90s, when >>> the U. of Washington summarily deleted all the marvellous indological >>> materials that had been made public for years by Tom Ridgeway[* >>> ]. >>> Since then, I've never really trusted university computing departments to >>> have a long view. University libraries are institutionally concerned with >>> long-term preservation, but libraries curate static data, not functioning >>> services. >>> >>> >>> >>> So I arrived at the counter-intuitive position that running the website >>> and Mailman as a private individual was likely to provide a more stable and >>> long-lasting environment than working with a university. It is also the >>> path of least resistance to just keep the service afloat and not to bother >>> myself or others with all the complications of collecting money. This >>> takes the least number of brain cycles for me, and leaves me most free to >>> actually do the things I love, including indology. I'm now a bit sorry I >>> mentioned it publicly, but I was writing hastily and in a spirit of full >>> disclosure. >>> >>> >>> >>> Something that I failed to mention in my response about how the >>> committee works is that we have a weekly rota. I think everyone knows >>> this, but members of the committee take weekly turns being on duty. So at >>> any one time, only one of the committee members deals with correspondence >>> or other tasks (but we all vote on issues and applications all the time). >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Dominik >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:14, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Dominik, >>> >>> >>> >>> My reaction is similar to Jonathan's. I would be willing to >>> contribute toward the cost of maintaining the Indology list. Please >>> consider setting up a way for us to share the cost. With best wishes, >>> >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> >>> Professor Emeritus >>> >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> >>> University of Michigan >>> >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:51 AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Dominik >>> >>> I am perhaps not the only member who felt more than a twinge of guilt in >>> reading that you have been paying for storage out of your pocket. While I >>> agree that simply repeating previous posts is a very bad idea (I would have >>> said for reasons of legibility and page space, not storage cost), I would >>> be more than delighted to contribute to the costs of funding Indology, and >>> I am sure I am not the only one. Perhaps there is a way (sorry, I know this >>> is more work for someone!) to make a page where I can make a donation? >>> Paypal? Or--I'm blushing here--such a page already exists but I don't know >>> about it? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Herman Tull > Princeton, NJ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Patricia Sauthoff Post-doctoral researcher AyurYog.org Department of History and Classics University of Alberta Edmonton, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauthoff at ualberta.ca Fri Apr 5 18:42:17 2019 From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 12:42:17 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How we talk to women online, an example from Indology Message-ID: I did a little analysis of two recent emails sent out on the list by the same sender. One email was in response to a male and the other to a female. Both emails were on the same topic and sent within a few minutes of one another. The male to male (MM) email used the second person "you" and the first person "I" in a 1:2 ratio. The male to female (MF) email used "you" to "I" in a 1:3.6 ratio. The first paragraph of the MM email directly addressed the previous email by a male academic. The first paragraph of the FM email reiterated a point that the male writer said previously, something that occurred more than once in the FM email. The MM email contained: one instance of concern trolling one instance of an off-topic remark several instances of aggressive wording. The MM email contained no obvious typos. The MF email contained: one instance of antagonistic wording at least two instances of passive aggressive wording two instances of concern trolling three instances of questioning the female list member's intellectual ability (aka gaslighting) two off-topic comments (one of which containing offensive and dismissive language) one instance of what could be perceived as a veiled threat. The MF email contained multiple obvious typos. Some definitions of the types of trolling women experience online can be found here: https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a13403/online-harassment-terms-fight-back/ I am not trying to call anyone out in particular but find it to be a good demonstration of how women are approached differently in online spaces. -- Patricia Sauthoff Post-doctoral researcher AyurYog.org Department of History and Classics University of Alberta Edmonton, Canada -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:05:36 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 21:05:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How we talk to women online, an example from Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr. Sauthoff, Thank you very much for this. I found it edifying and enlightening. All the Best, Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 8:43 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I did a little analysis of two recent emails sent out on the list by the > same sender. One email was in response to a male and the other to a female. > Both emails were on the same topic and sent within a few minutes of one > another. > > The male to male (MM) email used the second person "you" and the first > person "I" in a 1:2 ratio. > > The male to female (MF) email used "you" to "I" in a 1:3.6 ratio. > > The first paragraph of the MM email directly addressed the previous email > by a male academic. > > The first paragraph of the FM email reiterated a point that the male > writer said previously, something that occurred more than once in the FM > email. > > The MM email contained: > one instance of concern trolling > one instance of an off-topic remark > several instances of aggressive wording. > The MM email contained no obvious typos. > > The MF email contained: > one instance of antagonistic wording > at least two instances of passive aggressive wording > two instances of concern trolling > three instances of questioning the female list member's intellectual > ability (aka gaslighting) > two off-topic comments (one of which containing offensive and dismissive > language) > one instance of what could be perceived as a veiled threat. > The MF email contained multiple obvious typos. > > > Some definitions of the types of trolling women experience online can be > found here: > https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a13403/online-harassment-terms-fight-back/ > > > I am not trying to call anyone out in particular but find it to be a good > demonstration of how women are approached differently in online spaces. > > -- > Patricia Sauthoff > Post-doctoral researcher > AyurYog.org > Department of History and Classics > University of Alberta > Edmonton, Canada > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr Fri Apr 5 19:23:21 2019 From: Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr (KORN Agnes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 19:23:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B84628B135@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> Dear all, I, too, would like to contribute to the costs of running the Indology list. It would be very sad, I think, if the costs were an argument that someone should be prevent from saying Thankyou to a post they found interesting, or, for that matter, if financial issue should prevent someone from sending a message. Also, while I entirely understand (and support) the point of reducing digital noise etc., a 1-2 line Thankyou is, so far as I can see, entirely common on mailing lists, and may in fact be a welcome return to the person who posted the information. As much as I struggle with the daily load of messages, such small friendly mails are no problem to me. Best, Agnes From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, April 05, 2019 6:53 AM To: Harry Falk Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Since the 'specific' instance mentioned by Dr Truschke was pertaining to Prof. Dominik Wujastyk's individual message to me that was later brought to the notice of the list by Dr Truschke, I thought it may be pertinent to share what continued after that message from Prof. Wujastyk to me. To that message, I responded to Prof. Wujastyk and the Indology-owner id as follows: I honour your instruction , Prof. Dominik Wujastyk. Prof. Wujastyk responded to me as follows: Dear Professor Paturi, I'm really grateful for your gracious response. As you saw in the INDOLOGY post from Audrey Truschke, she was cross with me for writing to you, and she said she doesn't agree that I should have done so. On reflection, I think I was wrong in an important respect respect: I didn't check with the other committee members before writing under the "committee" name. And I was a bit impulsive. My message had nothing to do with you personally, in fact. I was looking at the overall volume of messages on the list and thinking about the signal-to-noise ratio of list posts. I also worry about the fact that individual posts to the list nowadays append multiple copies of all the previous messages posted on that topic. I personally pay for the storage of all archived messages out of my own pocket and also the network bandwidth used by the conversations, which rises every year. So I do have general concerns about conciseness and economy of expression in the forum. I have written to others in the past with some of these concerns. It's probably a Quixotic quest: few people today think about these issues of economic data usage, although they were a major topic when the internet was new. Perhaps I'm a dinosour in this respect. Thank you again, With best regards, Dominik Wujastyk I responded to him and the Indology-owner id as follows: Dear Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, You need not explain that this far. I understand your good intentions and your difficult task and responsibility as the moderator. I did what I thought is the best way a member can help the manager run a forum. I thought responses such as thanking a member give happiness to the member only when done in public. This thought came to me because I several times received thanking , admiring and other such positive responses from the members as individual mails to me and wondered about what was stopping them from making such expressions in public. This message from you increased my respect for you since it reveals a great gentle and gracious attitude on your part. Thanking you for reaching out to me. Warm regards, Nagaraj On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:53 AM Harry Falk via INDOLOGY > wrote: > to prevent what I > have experienced, internally on the committee, Reading for (precious) hours and trying to find our whether my sense for the meaning of texts in English has vanished into thin air: WHAT has happened? WHO has said what TO WHOM? > Inappropriate, biased behavior This sounds terrible and must certainly be condemned. Maybe US academics know by these terms alone what was said or done, but old-style Europeans do not. Where and how does "biased" start? Name the culprit(s)! Tell how they misbehaved! No quarter, no mercy. Or should we plan for two INDOLOGY lists, one for the ladies and one for men? The question for quota inside the two committees would then be answered. Best, Harry Falk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:38:48 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 13:38:48 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's really, really sweet of everyone to offer to contribute financially to supporting INDOLOGY. I very much appreciate it. At the present time and for the foreseeable future I can easily carry it, and I honestly would prefer the simplicity of that approach. No tax issues, no accounts, no discussions. It's the lowest-maintenance version of things, and that suits me best. However, one day I will leave the committee in younger, stronger hands and at that time I will also hand over all decisions including how to handle the digital rent. Warm regards and thanks again to everyone!!! Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 01:24:19 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 19 19:24:19 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B84628B135@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> Message-ID: Dear Dr Korn, I think you're quite right on all points. On this issue of bandwidth, I think I should just get over myself. It's obsolete thinking. I regret writing to Prof. Paturi; we've made friends again, and I think all is well. Best, Dominik On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 13:24, KORN Agnes via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > I, too, would like to contribute to the costs of running the Indology > list. > > It would be very sad, I think, if the costs were an argument that someone > should be prevent from saying Thankyou to a post they found interesting, > or, for that matter, if financial issue should prevent someone from sending > a message. > > > > Also, while I entirely understand (and support) the point of reducing > digital noise etc., a 1-2 line Thankyou is, so far as I can see, entirely > common on mailing lists, and may in fact be a welcome return to the person > who posted the information. > > As much as I struggle with the daily load of messages, such small friendly > mails are no problem to me. > > > > Best, > > Agnes > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpeterson at isfas.uni-kiel.de Sat Apr 6 04:57:43 2019 From: jpeterson at isfas.uni-kiel.de (John Peterson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 10:27:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Doctoral Position: Socio-linguistic methods and material culture (North India, eastern Ganges Basin) In-Reply-To: <512292ee230e253a6f940c674ed21570@isfas.uni-kiel.de> Message-ID: Apologies for cross-posting - Please feel free to pass along to potential interested candidates! _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (NOTE: Numbers such as "12PHD", etc., refer to PhD positions in the original posting. Please see the bottom of this mail for further details.) THE NEW CLUSTER ROOTS ? SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTAL, AND CULTURAL CONNECTIVITY IN PAST SOCIETIES in the frame of the German Excellence Initiative explores social, environmental, and cultural processes that have substantially shaped past human development (and which are still active today). Research is organized in six research units (i.e. subclusters) covering six foci: (1) Environmental hazards and impacts; (2) Dietary intake and disease; (3) Knowledge production, technology, and innovation; (4) Population agglomeration and urbanisation; (5) Social differentiation and inequalities; and (6) Conflict and conciliation. The ROOTS 'Reflective Turn' will enable cross-disciplinary dialogue and enquiries within and between research foci, providing an overarching theoretical frame. The Research Associates and Doctoral positions participate in the ROOTS Young Academy. The ROOTS Young Academy brings together young experts from an array of disciplines, which support ROOTS research with innovative research ideas. The Young Academy provides young researchers with excellent conditions for a successful career and personal development. Therefore, we invite applications for the following positions to begin as early as possible: [...] Candidates are invited to submit proposals for PhD research projects addressing one or more of the following themes of ROOTS (as assigned to one of the six ROOTS subclusters): [...] 13PHD DOCTORAL POSITION: SOCIO-LINGUISTIC METHODS AND MATERIAL CULTURE PROFILE: Historical Linguistics, Methods of Quantitative Linguistics, Sociolinguistics The successful candidate shall conduct work on linguistic aspects of social stratification in NORTH INDIA from a historical perspective, with special reference to the EASTERN GANGES BASIN. She/He will work in close cooperation with scholars from both general linguistics as well as from archaeology, taking not only theoretical sociolinguistic aspects of historical language stratification into account but also aspects of material culture. Research will address these aspects in different social and economic groups from this region, e.g. hunter and gatherer societies (or social groups which until recently fell within this group and have since changed to a more sedentary lifestyle), farming communities, and others. Integration into the research agenda of 'ROOTS of social inequality' is expected as well as co-operation with other subclusters. The position offers for cooperation with the Doctoral Positions 12PHD, 16PHD, 17PHD, 18PHD as well as with the Research Associate Position 08RA. REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS: Eligible candidates must hold an outstanding university degree (MA or equivalent) in General Linguistics, Indo-European Linguistics or in a related linguistic field with a focus on historical linguistics. The successful candidate will have a keen interest in historical linguistics, which can also be demonstrated by his / her publications, and will be familiar with various quantitative methods in linguistics. Complementary expertise in historical sociolinguistics and/or in the area of language contact will be an asset. Knowledge of a modern South Asian language is desirable and/or the willingness to obtain a basic knowledge of spoken and written Hindi within the first six months of the grant. CONTACT: Johannes M?ller and Henny Piezonka (subcluster-speakers) [...] For the DOCTORAL POSITIONS, please send the following documents as a single .pdf document: * a cover letter; * CV (including list of publications); * the proposed doctoral project outline no longer than 1500 words, including a brief summary, state of the art, a concise project description, and a work schedule; * the names of two references with contact information; * a copy (in .pdf format) of your master-thesis or proof of equivalent qualification; * certificates of academic degrees. All documents must be submitted in English, with the exception of the copy of the master-thesis. All documents must be submitted in English. The application deadline for all positions is 06/05/2019 [= MAY 6, 2019]. Please include the code of the job you are applying for at the beginning of your cover letter! Please address your application to: Search Committee Speaker Prof. Dr. Johannes M?ller, Cluster of Excellence ROOTS, Kiel University, Leibnizstra?e 3, 24118 Kiel, Germany via e-mail (application at gshdl.uni-kiel.de) For additional information, please contact: PD Dr. Mara Weinelt, mweinelt at gshdl.uni-kiel.de, +49 431 880-1639 or Dr. Andrea Ricci, aricci at gshdl.uni-kiel.de, +49 431 880-5871 [...] For further details including details of submission of application, see: https://www.uni-kiel.de/personal/de/stellen/extern/wiss In English: Click: Researchers for the new Cluster "Roots" In German: Click: Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter*innen f?r den Exzellenzcluster "Roots" -- John Peterson Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft (ISFAS) Christian-Albrechts-Universit?t zu Kiel Olshausenstra?e 40 D-24098 Kiel Germany Tel.: (+49) (0)431-880 2414 Fax: (+49) (0)431-880 7405 Homepage: http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson Project on the languages of South Asia: http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/efprojects "There's no present like the time." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Sat Apr 6 08:10:52 2019 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 10:10:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How we talk to women online, an example from Indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr Truschke, Dear Dr Sauthoff, I would like to thank you to raise the problem which an important part of my life as a feminine scholar and, additionally, a scholar from the previous Eastern Europe (Poland). Regards, Joanna Jurewicz --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pt., 5 kwi 2019 o 21:06 Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear Dr. Sauthoff, > > Thank you very much for this. I found it edifying and enlightening. > > All the Best, > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 8:43 PM Patricia Sauthoff via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> I did a little analysis of two recent emails sent out on the list by the >> same sender. One email was in response to a male and the other to a female. >> Both emails were on the same topic and sent within a few minutes of one >> another. >> >> The male to male (MM) email used the second person "you" and the first >> person "I" in a 1:2 ratio. >> >> The male to female (MF) email used "you" to "I" in a 1:3.6 ratio. >> >> The first paragraph of the MM email directly addressed the previous email >> by a male academic. >> >> The first paragraph of the FM email reiterated a point that the male >> writer said previously, something that occurred more than once in the FM >> email. >> >> The MM email contained: >> one instance of concern trolling >> one instance of an off-topic remark >> several instances of aggressive wording. >> The MM email contained no obvious typos. >> >> The MF email contained: >> one instance of antagonistic wording >> at least two instances of passive aggressive wording >> two instances of concern trolling >> three instances of questioning the female list member's intellectual >> ability (aka gaslighting) >> two off-topic comments (one of which containing offensive and dismissive >> language) >> one instance of what could be perceived as a veiled threat. >> The MF email contained multiple obvious typos. >> >> >> Some definitions of the types of trolling women experience online can be >> found here: >> https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a13403/online-harassment-terms-fight-back/ >> >> >> I am not trying to call anyone out in particular but find it to be a good >> demonstration of how women are approached differently in online spaces. >> >> -- >> Patricia Sauthoff >> Post-doctoral researcher >> AyurYog.org >> Department of History and Classics >> University of Alberta >> Edmonton, Canada >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de Sat Apr 6 08:27:48 2019 From: tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de (tatiana.oranskaia) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 10:27:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190406102748.Horde.pZ3CtPqZ6SbL4vPCP_vMvCi@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Dear colleagues, It seems to be high time to terminate the debate. However, I would like to join Professor Falk in asking Dr. Truschke: What happened? I was sure I had missed portrayal of the insulting incidents. (Of course it's not necessary to name the male person(s).) I am ashamed to admit that in more than 40 years of my career in indology I have never experienced sexism nor recognized a sexist case in my academic environment. With best regards, Tatiana Oranskaia Zitat von Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY : > Since the 'specific' instance mentioned by Dr Truschke was pertaining to > Prof. Dominik Wujastyk's individual message to me that was later brought to > the notice of the list by Dr Truschke, I thought it may be pertinent to > share what continued after that message from Prof. Wujastyk to me. > > To that message, I responded to Prof. Wujastyk and the Indology-owner id as > follows: > > I honour your instruction , Prof. Dominik Wujastyk. > > > Prof. Wujastyk responded to me as follows: > > Dear Professor Paturi, > > I'm really grateful for your gracious response. > > As you saw in the INDOLOGY post from Audrey Truschke, she was cross with me > for writing to you, and she said she doesn't agree that I should have done > so. On reflection, I think I was wrong in an important respect respect: I > didn't check with the other committee members before writing under the > "committee" name. And I was a bit impulsive. My message had nothing to do > with you personally, in fact. I was looking at the overall volume of > messages on the list and thinking about the signal-to-noise ratio of list > posts. I also worry about the fact that individual posts to the list > nowadays append multiple copies of all the previous messages posted on that > topic. I personally pay for the storage of all archived messages out of my > own pocket and also the network bandwidth used by the conversations, which > rises every year. So I do have general concerns about conciseness and > economy of expression in the forum. I have written to others in the past > with some of these concerns. It's probably a Quixotic quest: few people > today think about these issues of economic data usage, although they were a > major topic when the internet was new. Perhaps I'm a dinosour in this > respect. > > Thank you again, > With best regards, > Dominik Wujastyk > > I responded to him and the Indology-owner id as follows: > > Dear Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, > > You need not explain that this far. I understand your good intentions and > your difficult task and responsibility as the moderator. I did what I > thought is the best way a member can help the manager run a forum. > > I thought responses such as thanking a member give happiness to the member > only when done in public. This thought came to me because I several times > received thanking , admiring and other such positive responses from the > members as individual mails to me and wondered about what was stopping them > from making such expressions in public. > > This message from you increased my respect for you since it reveals a great > gentle and gracious attitude on your part. > > Thanking you for reaching out to me. > > Warm regards, > > Nagaraj > > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:53 AM Harry Falk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> > to prevent what I >> > have experienced, internally on the committee, >> >> Reading for (precious) hours and trying to find our whether my sense for >> the meaning of texts in English has vanished into thin air: WHAT has >> happened? WHO has said what TO WHOM? >> >> > Inappropriate, biased behavior >> >> This sounds terrible and must certainly be condemned. Maybe US academics >> know by these terms alone what was said or done, but old-style Europeans >> do not. Where and how does "biased" start? Name the culprit(s)! Tell how >> they misbehaved! No quarter, no mercy. >> Or should we plan for two INDOLOGY lists, one for the ladies and one for >> men? The question for quota inside the two committees would then be >> answered. >> Best, >> Harry Falk >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Prof. Dr. Tatiana Oranskaia Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Asien-Afrika-Institut Universit?t Hamburg Alsterterrasse 1, 1. OG re. 20354 Hamburg Tel.: 040 428 38 3385 (GZ) Fax: 040 42838 6944 tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de From mahabongo at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 10:37:14 2019 From: mahabongo at gmail.com (Matthew Clark) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 11:37:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: <20190406102748.Horde.pZ3CtPqZ6SbL4vPCP_vMvCi@webmail.rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I have been following the thread, but like Professor Falk and Dr Oranskaia, I remain entirely puzzled regarding what the complaint specific to the Indology list was about. I am not of course refering to the wider issue of sexism and bias in society generally. Given the amount of comment this topic has received, clarification would be most welcome. Best regards, Matthew Clark (SOAS) On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 09:28 tatiana.oranskaia via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > It seems to be high time to terminate the debate. > However, I would like to join Professor Falk in asking Dr. Truschke: > What happened? > I was sure I had missed portrayal of the insulting incidents. > (Of course it's not necessary to name the male person(s).) > I am ashamed to admit that in more than 40 years of my career in indology > I have never experienced sexism nor recognized a sexist case in my academic > environment. > > With best regards, > Tatiana Oranskaia > > > Zitat von Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY : > > > Since the 'specific' instance mentioned by Dr Truschke was pertaining to > > Prof. Dominik Wujastyk's individual message to me that was later brought > to > > the notice of the list by Dr Truschke, I thought it may be pertinent to > > share what continued after that message from Prof. Wujastyk to me. > > > > To that message, I responded to Prof. Wujastyk and the Indology-owner id > as > > follows: > > > > I honour your instruction , Prof. Dominik Wujastyk. > > > > > > Prof. Wujastyk responded to me as follows: > > > > Dear Professor Paturi, > > > > I'm really grateful for your gracious response. > > > > As you saw in the INDOLOGY post from Audrey Truschke, she was cross with > me > > for writing to you, and she said she doesn't agree that I should have > done > > so. On reflection, I think I was wrong in an important respect respect: > I > > didn't check with the other committee members before writing under the > > "committee" name. And I was a bit impulsive. My message had nothing to > do > > with you personally, in fact. I was looking at the overall volume of > > messages on the list and thinking about the signal-to-noise ratio of list > > posts. I also worry about the fact that individual posts to the list > > nowadays append multiple copies of all the previous messages posted on > that > > topic. I personally pay for the storage of all archived messages out of > my > > own pocket and also the network bandwidth used by the conversations, > which > > rises every year. So I do have general concerns about conciseness and > > economy of expression in the forum. I have written to others in the past > > with some of these concerns. It's probably a Quixotic quest: few people > > today think about these issues of economic data usage, although they > were a > > major topic when the internet was new. Perhaps I'm a dinosour in this > > respect. > > > > Thank you again, > > With best regards, > > Dominik Wujastyk > > > > I responded to him and the Indology-owner id as follows: > > > > Dear Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, > > > > You need not explain that this far. I understand your good intentions and > > your difficult task and responsibility as the moderator. I did what I > > thought is the best way a member can help the manager run a forum. > > > > I thought responses such as thanking a member give happiness to the > member > > only when done in public. This thought came to me because I several times > > received thanking , admiring and other such positive responses from the > > members as individual mails to me and wondered about what was stopping > them > > from making such expressions in public. > > > > This message from you increased my respect for you since it reveals a > great > > gentle and gracious attitude on your part. > > > > Thanking you for reaching out to me. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Nagaraj > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 12:53 AM Harry Falk via INDOLOGY < > > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > >> > to prevent what I > >> > have experienced, internally on the committee, > >> > >> Reading for (precious) hours and trying to find our whether my sense for > >> the meaning of texts in English has vanished into thin air: WHAT has > >> happened? WHO has said what TO WHOM? > >> > >> > Inappropriate, biased behavior > >> > >> This sounds terrible and must certainly be condemned. Maybe US academics > >> know by these terms alone what was said or done, but old-style Europeans > >> do not. Where and how does "biased" start? Name the culprit(s)! Tell how > >> they misbehaved! No quarter, no mercy. > >> Or should we plan for two INDOLOGY lists, one for the ladies and one for > >> men? The question for quota inside the two committees would then be > >> answered. > >> Best, > >> Harry Falk > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >> committee) > >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or > >> unsubscribe) > >> > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Tatiana Oranskaia > Abteilung f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets > Asien-Afrika-Institut > Universit?t Hamburg > Alsterterrasse 1, 1. OG re. > 20354 Hamburg > > Tel.: 040 428 38 3385 (GZ) > Fax: 040 42838 6944 > tatiana.oranskaia at uni-hamburg.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isabelle.ratie at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 13:29:54 2019 From: isabelle.ratie at gmail.com (Isabelle Ratie) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 09:29:54 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, As far as I understand, the most grievous offense attributed by Dr. Truschke to the Indology governing committee is that Dominik Wujastyk recently asked a list member who had congratulated her for one of her posts (on a matter related to women in indology) not to send such thanks to all members in future because this takes up too much space (as all such messages have to be stored even if they contain no information of a specifically indological nature?). Given the tone and content of some of the latest remarks in this thread, however, I feel that we might do well to keep in mind 1, that whatever happened with the French History of Science list, Dr. Truschke is NOT the victim of violent, unmoderated misogynistic attacks posted on Indology; 2, that although the power of the Indology committee has been compared in another recent post to that of the American Senate, the Indology committee has virtually no power; and 3, that surely, we all have many more serious and urgent battles to fight for women's rights (including in the field of indology) than this chastising of a powerless committee for comprising three male members against two female ones. As for those of us who think that there are no battles too small to be fought, they can at least agree that as past and present discussions have shown, the Indology list hasn't been ignoring issues of gender inequality and bias; that the Indology committee hasn't been censuring debates on these topics; and that if Dominik Wujastyk's decision to ask a list member not to post thanks to the entire list in future was debatable (he has written that he regrets it), this hardly makes him a misogynist, all the more since he claims to have sent in the past similar messages with respect to other posts that did not bear on gender equality, and since we owe him a forum where women and men alike have been able to freely exchange on all kinds of matters related to indological scholarship (including gender bias) for many years. Adding a female member to the committee would have the pleasant advantage of satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, and it is probably the best way to quickly end this controversy; I remain in doubt, however, as to whether this would constitute in any way a significant progress in the struggle against gender bias and sexism. Let us keep our eyes on the frontlines. With best wishes to all, Isabelle -- Isabelle Rati? Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literatures Sorbonne Nouvelle University (Paris 3) http://www.univ-paris3.fr/ratie-isabelle--302292.kjsp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 6 13:39:21 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 06:39:21 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ????????? ???? ???????? ????? ? ???????:??? ???? ????????????????? ??????? When Radha, with pretend anger, hides in bowers, the loneliness becomes too unbearable for Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 19:20:53 2019 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 21:20:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues and Friends, I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment during the last year - and being required to keep mute by those who, in my view, treated me with bias - is not a serious matter (for those who have asked, please see my earlier notes giving a list of situations and behaviors, beyond a single case). I disagree even more that attention to such matters distracts from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal treatment is not a zero-sum game. In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that the INDOLOGY governing committee is not a safe place for me. I have been told in the past week that we cannot require bias training (that's bollocks - of course we can). There remains no grievance procedure or talk of instituting one. The committee is discussing adding another woman, but probably only one because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the thought that women might outnumber men on the committee. To quote this man: "Gender parity applies both ways, however. With the current active lineup, we only need to add *one* female member to give us parity...nothing further needs to be done." For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure here on INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I am leaving the committee and the list. In the end, this conversation has become about far more than me, and I hope that others continue that larger discussion. All the Best, Audrey Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:46 PM Isabelle Ratie via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > As far as I understand, the most grievous offense attributed by Dr. > Truschke to the Indology governing committee is that Dominik Wujastyk > recently asked a list member who had congratulated her for one of her posts > (on a matter related to women in indology) not to send such thanks to all > members in future because this takes up too much space (as all such > messages have to be stored even if they contain no information of a > specifically indological nature?). Given the tone and content of some of > the latest remarks in this thread, however, I feel that we might do well to > keep in mind 1, that whatever happened with the French History of Science > list, Dr. Truschke is NOT the victim of violent, unmoderated misogynistic > attacks posted on Indology; 2, that although the power of the Indology > committee has been compared in another recent post to that of the American > Senate, the Indology committee has virtually no power; and 3, that surely, > we all have many more serious and urgent battles to fight for women's > rights (including in the field of indology) than this chastising of a > powerless committee for comprising three male members against two female > ones. As for those of us who think that there are no battles too small to > be fought, they can at least agree that as past and present discussions > have shown, the Indology list hasn't been ignoring issues of gender > inequality and bias; that the Indology committee hasn't been censuring > debates on these topics; and that if Dominik Wujastyk's decision to ask a > list member not to post thanks to the entire list in future was debatable > (he has written that he regrets it), this hardly makes him a misogynist, > all the more since he claims to have sent in the past similar messages with > respect to other posts that did not bear on gender equality, and since we > owe him a forum where women and men alike have been able to freely exchange > on all kinds of matters related to indological scholarship (including > gender bias) for many years. Adding a female member to the committee would > have the pleasant advantage of satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, > and it is probably the best way to quickly end this controversy; I remain > in doubt, however, as to whether this would constitute in any way a > significant progress in the struggle against gender bias and sexism. Let us > keep our eyes on the frontlines. > With best wishes to all, > Isabelle > -- > Isabelle Rati? > Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literatures > Sorbonne Nouvelle University (Paris 3) > http://www.univ-paris3.fr/ratie-isabelle--302292.kjsp > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Sat Apr 6 19:24:18 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 09:24:18 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about kings poisoned by wives Message-ID: Dear Friends, To emphasize how careful the king should be even among his intimates, the N?tis?ra presents a series of brief anecdotes about kings who were assassinated by by their wives and family members for a variety of reasons (specified concisely by the comm. Jayama?gal?). I was wondering if any of you know these stories in more detail from other sources. These are the stories of Bhadrasena (killed by his brother hiding in the queen's quarters), K?r??a (killed by his son hiding under his mother's bed), a certain K??ir?jendra (killed by wife with poisoned rice), Vair?pya (killed with a poisoned girdle-jem), and J?ru?ya (killed by a small dagger hidden in the queen's braid). Thanks and all best, ??????,J -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.stuhrmann at t-online.de Sat Apr 6 20:44:18 2019 From: r.stuhrmann at t-online.de (rainer stuhrmann) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 19 22:44:18 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about kings poisoned by wives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jesse, one detail: I learned from usually well-informed circles and other reliable sources that all these kings were "mysogynist pigs". Best Rainer Stuhrmann -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Apr 7 13:12:09 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 06:12:09 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ??????? ???? ? ??? ????? ???? ???? ? ??? ?????????????? ??????? Krishna says: "O Radhika, where are you hiding? Please respond to me. Forgive me. Why did you leave me? I cannot bear my loneliness." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 17:07:04 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 11:07:04 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am writing this email in my own voice, not as an INDOLOGY committee statement. The committee has been reluctant to get into "you said, I said" arguments, for good reasons including the fact that some points of disagreement are hard to talk about without revealing confidential information. Yesterday, Prof. Truschke posted a message ("I disagree that dealing ...", appended below) that referenced a committee post that I sent last week and made remarks about my opinon on bias training. So that INDOLOGY members may see the context, here is the full text of the post that I sent to the committee last week. I have redacted the names of the scholars we were discussing (XXXX and YYYY are both women with appointments at Indian universities). Subject: Re: suggestions for new committee members From: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: indology-owner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f365830585b8fc88" --000000000000f365830585b8fc88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear committee colleagues, I'm very busy and short of time (crazy last week of semester and academic year, sick child at home, etc. etc. etc.), but I've been told that Audrey has re-raised this issue about expanding the committee and inviting specifically women participants to even out the gender balance. I agree, as I've said before. So, since nobody else has done anything yet, I propose that as do as we usually do when we're making committee decisions, we have a vote. I propose that, following Stefan's suggestion from October last year, the most recent I can quickly find, we invite the following two scholars to join the INDOLOGY management committee: - Prof. XXXX (at academia.edu) - Prof. YYYY (ditto) Shall we say that votes should be in within a week? 11 April. Criteria: this committee has never formalized criteria, or even really discussed them. Should we? I would include that candidates should have a record of being somewhat dynamic, i.e., answering email reasonably quickly, and being willing and able to do the weekly-rota duties and having professional experience in such things as student admission committees, journal refereeing or other situations that would help with skills and sensitivities needed to evaluate incoming short CVs. I would also draw attention to Stefan's important observation about considering candidates from East Asia. Suggestions welcome. I think Audrey's idea of bias training is a good one; I don't think we can formally require this of people, but when we invite new members we can mention that we recommend this, and we should point to some online resources, for example Harvard's ITA test (which is publicly available). (My university uses the Harvard test as part of it's internal bias training package; it's a bit clunky, but generally good.) Perhaps we can have a committee vote on this issue separately if we want to. Best, Dominik INDOLOGY committee member On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 15:39, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues and Friends, > > I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment during the > last year - and being required to keep mute by those who, in my view, > treated me with bias - is not a serious matter (for those who have asked, > please see my earlier notes giving a list of situations and behaviors, > beyond a single case). I disagree even more that attention to such matters > distracts from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal > treatment is not a zero-sum game. > > In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that the INDOLOGY > governing committee is not a safe place for me. I have been told in the > past week that we cannot require bias training (that's bollocks - of course > we can). There remains no grievance procedure or talk of instituting one. > The committee is discussing adding another woman, but probably only one > because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the thought > that women might outnumber men on the committee. To quote this man: "Gender > parity applies both ways, however. With the current active lineup, we only > need to add *one* female member to give us parity...nothing further needs > to be done." > > For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure here on > INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I am leaving the > committee and the list. In the end, this conversation has become about far > more than me, and I hope that others continue that larger discussion. > > All the Best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Apr 7 19:27:42 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 19:27:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question Message-ID: Dear List members, someone (not a sanskritist and unaware of diacritics) asked me what the following stanza means: atiparicayadavajna / samtatagamanadanadro bhavati. malaye bhillaparandhri / candanatarukastham indhanam kurute. Some parts, like malaye ... candanatarukastham indhanam kurute, are clear but I do not know what to make of the second p?da. I look forward to suggestions. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbalogh at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 19:40:27 2019 From: danbalogh at gmail.com (Daniel Balogh) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 21:40:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question Message-ID: <5caa5256.1c69fb81.7ae31.7df0@mx.google.com> I?m not familiar with the stanza, but my reconstruction would be atiparicay?d avaj?? / sa?tatagaman?d an?daro bhavati | malaye bhillapurandhr? / candanataruk???ham indhana? kurute || This scans as a correct verse in g?ti. Daniel From: Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY Sent: 07 April 2019 21:28 To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] question Dear List members, someone (not a sanskritist and unaware of diacritics) asked me what the following stanza means: atiparicayadavajna / samtatagamanadanadro bhavati. malaye bhillaparandhri / candanatarukastham indhanam kurute. Some parts, like malaye ...?candanatarukastham indhanam kurute, are clear but I do not know what to make of the second p?da.? I look forward to suggestions. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Sun Apr 7 19:51:46 2019 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 19:51:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190407215257.e8015e1f1fb90b796eab8c1c@ff.cuni.cz> See Sternbach's Mah?subh??itasa?graha, vol. I, no. 575: atiparicay?d avaj?? sa?tatagaman?d an?daro bhavati | malaye bhillapurandhr? candanatarum indhana? kurute || (with textual variants and sources) Excessive familiarity breeds contempt, and too frequent visits (to a person) lead to disrespect. A Bhilla woman [or: a woman-beggar] living on the Malaya Mountain uses sandal-wood as a mere fuel. Best, Lubomir On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 19:27:42 +0000 "Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY" wrote: > Dear List members, > > someone (not a sanskritist and unaware of diacritics) asked me what the following stanza means: > > atiparicayadavajna / samtatagamanadanadro bhavati. > malaye bhillaparandhri / candanatarukastham indhanam kurute. > > Some parts, like malaye ... candanatarukastham indhanam kurute, are clear but I do not know what to make of the second p?da. > I look forward to suggestions. > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com From toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk Sun Apr 7 20:31:23 2019 From: toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 20:31:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Source of a Verse Message-ID: <7CB01D19-ADA0-4D2B-A675-834FCF9A8026@hum.ku.dk> Hi all, In Vidy?kara?s Subh??itaratnako?a, the following verse is attributed to R?ja?ekhara: avy?d vo valik??ghrip?tavicaladbh?golahelonmukha- bhr?myaddikkarikalpit?nukara?o n?tyan ga?agr?ma??? / yasyodda??ita?u??apu?karamarudvy?k???as???a? muhus t?r?cakram udakta??karap??all?l?m iv?bhyasyati // VidSrk_5.13 *(83)?taken from GRETIL Does anyone know the source text of the verse? Best wishes, Toke From emstern1948 at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 22:54:15 2019 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 18:54:15 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Source of a Verse In-Reply-To: <7CB01D19-ADA0-4D2B-A675-834FCF9A8026@hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: Dear Toke, This verse is number 3445 in Ludwik Sternbach, Mah?subh??itasa?graha?, volume II. > On Apr 7, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Hi all, > > In Vidy?kara?s Subh??itaratnako?a, the following verse is attributed to R?ja?ekhara: > > avy?d vo valik??ghrip?tavicaladbh?golahelonmukha- > bhr?myaddikkarikalpit?nukara?o n?tyan ga?agr?ma??? / > yasyodda??ita?u??apu?karamarudvy?k???as???a? muhus > t?r?cakram udakta??karap??all?l?m iv?bhyasyati // > VidSrk_5.13 *(83)?taken from GRETIL > > Does anyone know the source text of the verse? > > Best wishes, > Toke > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 23:51:16 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 05:21:16 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question In-Reply-To: <20190407215257.e8015e1f1fb90b796eab8c1c@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: Bhilla = tribal , forest- dwelling , not beggar. Atiparichaya matches with a forest-dwelling woman , not a beggar.woman Malaya has been considered as a mountain in the south of India. DakshiNaanila is a synonym for malayaanila. Chandana in southern hills /forests suits the facts. On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 1:22 AM Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > See Sternbach's Mah?subh??itasa?graha, vol. I, no. 575: > > atiparicay?d avaj?? > sa?tatagaman?d an?daro bhavati | > malaye bhillapurandhr? > candanatarum indhana? kurute || > > (with textual variants and sources) > > Excessive familiarity breeds contempt, and too frequent visits (to a > person) lead to disrespect. > A Bhilla woman [or: a woman-beggar] living on the Malaya Mountain uses > sandal-wood as a mere fuel. > > Best, > Lubomir > > > On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 19:27:42 +0000 > "Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY" wrote: > > > Dear List members, > > > > someone (not a sanskritist and unaware of diacritics) asked me what the > following stanza means: > > > > atiparicayadavajna / samtatagamanadanadro bhavati. > > malaye bhillaparandhri / candanatarukastham indhanam kurute. > > > > Some parts, like malaye ... candanatarukastham indhanam kurute, are > clear but I do not know what to make of the second p?da. > > I look forward to suggestions. > > Herman > > > > Herman Tieken > > Stationsweg 58 > > 2515 BP Den Haag > > The Netherlands > > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > > website: hermantieken.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:28:08 2019 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 19 19:28:08 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Source of a Verse In-Reply-To: <7CB01D19-ADA0-4D2B-A675-834FCF9A8026@hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <38632AF2-0166-473B-B83A-603D7074ED82@gmail.com> Probably a n?nd? verse of R?ja?ekhara?s so far undiscovered or lost play Hara-vil?sa (for this work, see M. Krishnamachariar?s _History of Classical Sansrit Literature_, section 655, p. 627f. A.K. Warder may have more information in the corresponding volume of his _Indian K?vya Literarure_.) a.a. > > From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] Source of a Verse. Date: April 7, 2019. "In Vidy?kara?s Subh??itaratnako?a, the following verse is attributed to R?ja?ekhara: avy?d vo valik??ghri-p?ta-vicalad-bh?gola-helonmukha-bhr?myad-dik-kari-kalpit?nukara?o n?tyan ga?a-gr?ma??? / yasyodda??ita-?u??a-pu?kara-marud-vy?k???a-s???a? muhus t?r?-cakram udakta-??kara-p??al-l?l?m iv?bhyasyati // VidSrk_5.13 *(83)?taken from GRETIL. Does anyone know the source text of the verse?? > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Mon Apr 8 08:52:09 2019 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 08:52:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190408105320.1d252fb14a10f4d8407e8ad1@ff.cuni.cz> I apologize I did not quote the source of the translation. It is not Ludwik Sternbach's, but he used the translation of Aryendra Sharma from the book Gems of Sanskrit Literature (Hyderabad: Osmania University, 1959). Best Lubomir On Mon, 8 Apr 2019 05:21:16 +0530 Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Bhilla = tribal , forest- dwelling , not beggar. > > Atiparichaya matches with a forest-dwelling woman , not a beggar.woman > > Malaya has been considered as a mountain in the south of India. > > DakshiNaanila is a synonym for malayaanila. > > Chandana in southern hills /forests suits the facts. > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 1:22 AM Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > See Sternbach's Mah?subh??itasa?graha, vol. I, no. 575: > > > > atiparicay?d avaj?? > > sa?tatagaman?d an?daro bhavati | > > malaye bhillapurandhr? > > candanatarum indhana? kurute || > > > > (with textual variants and sources) > > > > Excessive familiarity breeds contempt, and too frequent visits (to a > > person) lead to disrespect. > > A Bhilla woman [or: a woman-beggar] living on the Malaya Mountain uses > > sandal-wood as a mere fuel. > > > > Best, > > Lubomir > > > > > > On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 19:27:42 +0000 > > "Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY" wrote: > > > > > Dear List members, > > > > > > someone (not a sanskritist and unaware of diacritics) asked me what the > > following stanza means: > > > > > > atiparicayadavajna / samtatagamanadanadro bhavati. > > > malaye bhillaparandhri / candanatarukastham indhanam kurute. > > > > > > Some parts, like malaye ... candanatarukastham indhanam kurute, are > > clear but I do not know what to make of the second p?da. > > > I look forward to suggestions. > > > Herman > > > > > > Herman Tieken > > > Stationsweg 58 > > > 2515 BP Den Haag > > > The Netherlands > > > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > > > website: hermantieken.com > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > From kelleragathe600 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 08:56:04 2019 From: kelleragathe600 at gmail.com (Agathe Keller) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 01:56:04 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colebrooke and Historiographies of Sciences in Sanskrit, Paris 15th-16th april 2019 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, For those of you in Paris, a conference that will be held next week, to which all are welcome: *H.T. Colebrooke and historiographies of sciences in Sanskrit* *A conference* *organised by K. Chemla and A. Keller (SPHERE, CNRS & Universit? Paris Diderot) * *Colebrooke and historiographies of sciences in Sanskrit * *Venue: Universit? Paris Diderot, Condorcet Building* *10 rue Alice Domon et L?onie Duquet 75013 Paris ? map * *15-16 April, 2019 ? 9:30 am to 5:30 pm* *room Mondrian 646A* *Monday, April 15th, 2019* *9:30 ? 9:45 *? Introduction by the organizers *9:45 -11:15 *? *Rosane Rocher* (University of Pennsylvania, USA) *Science in Colebrooke?s universe* Commentator: Pascale Rabault-Feuerhahn (UMR 8547 CNRS, Paris) 11:15 -11:30 ? Coffee break *11:30 ? 13:00* ? *Eric Gurevitch* (University of Chicago, USA) *The Whig Interpretation of the Hindu Constitution* Commentator: Claude-0livier Doron (Universit? Paris Diderot, France) 13:00 -14:00 ? Lunch *14:00 ? 15:30* ? *Minakshi Menon* (MPWIG, Berlin, Germany) *Henry Thomas Colebrooke, the Amarako?a, and Botanical Knowledge Making in Colonial India, c. 1800* Commentator: Florence Bretelle-Establet (SPHERE, CNRS, Universit? Paris Diderot, France) 15:30 -16:00 ? Coffee break *16:00 ? 17:30* ? *Nalini Balbir* (Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle, Paris, France) *An instance of Colebrooke approach to religious science: the Jain tradition* Commentator: Rosane Rocher (University of Pennsylvania) *Tuesday, April 16th, 2019* *9:30 ?11:00 *?* Sho HIROSE* (ETH, Z?rich, Switzerland) * Origin and Observation: Colebrooke on Indian Astronomy* Commentator: Victor Gysembergh (CNRS, France) 11:00-11:30 ? Coffee break *11:30 ?13:00* ?* Agathe Keller* (SPHERE, CNRS et Universit? Paris Diderot, France) *Colebrooke, Commentaries and Proofs* Commentator: Vincenzo de Risi (SPHERE, Universit? Paris Diderot, France) 13:00 -14:00 ? Lunch *14:00 ? 15:30* ? *Satyanad Kichenassamy* (Universit? de Reims, France) *Henry Thomas Colebrooke and the nature of Brahmagupta?s mathematical discourse* Commentator: Karine Chemla (SPHERE, CNRS et Universit? Paris Diderot, France) 15:30 -16:00 ? Coffee break *16:00 ? 17:30* ? *Ivahn Smadja *(Universit? de Nantes, France) *Some aspects of Colebrooke?s mathematical reception in 19th century Germany : from ancient sources to new questions* Commentator: AJ Misra (MPWIG, Berlin, Germany) Abstracts and soon a program booklet can be found online: http://www.sphere.univ-paris-diderot.fr/spip.php?article2191 https://sawerc.hypotheses.org/conferences/colebrooke best Agathe Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr Mon Apr 8 11:06:55 2019 From: iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr (farkhondeh iran) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 13:06:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about kings poisoned by wives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jesse, Artha??stra 1.20.16 mentions among others the queen who ? killed the king of K??? by mixing fried grain with poison under the guise of honey. ? Here is the passage of the A? followed by Kangle?s translation: 1.20.16 l?j?n madhuneti vi?e?a paryasya dev? k???r?jam vi?adigdhena n?pure?a vairantyam mekhal?ma?in? sauv?ram j?l?tham ?dar?ena, ve?y?? g??ha? ?astra? k?tv? dev? vid?ratha? jagh?na. ? The queen killed the king of K??? by mixing fried grain with poison under the guise of honey; (the queen killed) Vairantya with an anklet smeared with poison, the king of the Sauv?ras with a (poison-smeared) girdle jewel, J?l?tha with a (poison-smeared) mirror; the queen killed Vid?ratha by keeping a weapon concealed in the braid of her hair. ? (R.P. Kangle, 1972, vol. 2, p. 50). You might also want to have a look at Kalha?a?s R?jatara?gi?? 7.685 and 8.1276-1278 where Vid?ratha is mentioned (vid?rath?div?tt?ntam (?) kelik?a?e bruvan (?)). Medh?tithi?s commentary on Manu 7.153 mentions anecdotes about kings who were assassinated by queens. I have written a few pages in my PhD dissertation on this topic and I would be happy to share them with you, even though my dissertation is in French. Kind regards, Iris Iran Farkhondeh Iris Iran Farkhondeh Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 Mondes iranien et indien 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > Le 6 avr. 2019 ? 21:24, Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > Dear Friends, To emphasize how careful the king should be even among his intimates, the N?tis?ra presents a series of brief anecdotes about kings who were assassinated by by their wives and family members for a variety of reasons (specified concisely by the comm. Jayama?gal?). I was wondering if any of you know these stories in more detail from other sources. These are the stories of Bhadrasena (killed by his brother hiding in the queen's quarters), K?r??a (killed by his son hiding under his mother's bed), a certain K??ir?jendra (killed by wife with poisoned rice), Vair?pya (killed with a poisoned girdle-jem), and J?ru?ya (killed by a small dagger hidden in the queen's braid). Thanks and all best, ??????,J > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature > Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr Mon Apr 8 12:31:32 2019 From: iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr (farkhondeh iran) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 14:31:32 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I would like to thank Isabelle Rati? and Dominik Wujastyk for their last emails which had, inter alia, the merit of enabling us to grasp some of the facts (it is a bit difficult to think in the void). I think we all agree that gender equality is far from achieved. It seems that we disagree on the best way to achieve it. I fully agree with Isabelle when she writes: ? Adding a female member to the committee would have the pleasant advantage of satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, and it is probably the best way to quickly end this controversy; I remain in doubt, however, as to whether this would constitute in any way a significant progress in the struggle against gender bias and sexism. Let us keep our eyes on the frontlines. ? As far as I?m concerned, I find that the quota policy is problematic. As a woman, I would not want to be interviewed for a job, shortlisted, hired or integrated into a committee for the mere reason that a woman was needed for the sake of symmetry: I would like to be selected as a scholar for my abilities and because people value my work. I think the best way to achieve equal rights is to see each other as colleagues and individuals without falling in the trap of essentializing the other. Fortunately human beings disagree and that?s healthy that they do. I would not want a male colleague to prevent himself from giving his opinion on my work because I?m a woman. Gender bias exists for sure but, if we don?t see ourselves simply as members of the ? weaker sex ?, then we should be glad to be criticized and to be able to answer and defend our position when it is defensible. Kind regards, Iran Iris Iran Farkhondeh Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 Mondes iranien et indien 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > Le 7 avr. 2019 ? 19:07, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > I am writing this email in my own voice, not as an INDOLOGY committee statement. The committee has been reluctant to get into "you said, I said" arguments, for good reasons including the fact that some points of disagreement are hard to talk about without revealing confidential information. > > Yesterday, Prof. Truschke posted a message ("I disagree that dealing ...", appended below) that referenced a committee post that I sent last week and made remarks about my opinon on bias training. So that INDOLOGY members may see the context, here is the full text of the post that I sent to the committee last week. I have redacted the names of the scholars we were discussing (XXXX and YYYY are both women with appointments at Indian universities). > > Subject: Re: suggestions for new committee members > From: Dominik Wujastyk > > Cc: indology-owner > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f365830585b8fc88" > > --000000000000f365830585b8fc88 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Dear committee colleagues, > > I'm very busy and short of time (crazy last week of semester and academic > year, sick child at home, etc. etc. etc.), but I've been told that Audrey > has re-raised this issue about expanding the committee and inviting > specifically women participants to even out the gender balance. I agree, > as I've said before. So, since nobody else has done anything yet, I > propose that as do as we usually do when we're making committee decisions, > we have a vote. > > I propose that, following Stefan's suggestion from October last year, the > most recent I can quickly find, we invite the following two scholars to > join the INDOLOGY management committee: > > - Prof. XXXX (at academia.edu ) > - Prof. YYYY (ditto) > > Shall we say that votes should be in within a week? 11 April. > > Criteria: this committee has never formalized criteria, or even really > discussed them. Should we? I would include that candidates should have a > record of being somewhat dynamic, i.e., answering email reasonably quickly, > and being willing and able to do the weekly-rota duties and having > professional experience in such things as student admission committees, > journal refereeing or other situations that would help with skills and > sensitivities needed to evaluate incoming short CVs. > > I would also draw attention to Stefan's important observation about > considering candidates from East Asia. Suggestions welcome. > > I think Audrey's idea of bias training is a good one; I don't think we can > formally require this of people, but when we invite new members we can > mention that we recommend this, and we should point to some online > resources, for example Harvard's ITA test (which is publicly available). > (My university uses the Harvard test as part of it's internal bias training > package; it's a bit clunky, but generally good.) Perhaps we can have a > committee vote on this issue separately if we want to. > > Best, > Dominik > INDOLOGY committee member > > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 15:39, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Colleagues and Friends, > > I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment during the last year - and being required to keep mute by those who, in my view, treated me with bias - is not a serious matter (for those who have asked, please see my earlier notes giving a list of situations and behaviors, beyond a single case). I disagree even more that attention to such matters distracts from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal treatment is not a zero-sum game. > > In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that the INDOLOGY governing committee is not a safe place for me. I have been told in the past week that we cannot require bias training (that's bollocks - of course we can). There remains no grievance procedure or talk of instituting one. The committee is discussing adding another woman, but probably only one because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the thought that women might outnumber men on the committee. To quote this man: "Gender parity applies both ways, however. With the current active lineup, we only need to add *one* female member to give us parity...nothing further needs to be done." > > For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure here on INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I am leaving the committee and the list. In the end, this conversation has become about far more than me, and I hope that others continue that larger discussion. > > All the Best, > > Audrey > > Audrey Truschke > Assistant Professor > Department of History > Rutgers University-Newark > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 8 14:12:30 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 07:12:30 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??????? Upon this, Radhika says: "I am hiding in your heart. How could I leave you and go? I am always near you." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Mon Apr 8 15:28:00 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 15:28:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention Message-ID: <461FA20B-EDEC-4C10-913A-50F63B2D766C@austin.utexas.edu> Dear All: Apologies for cross-posting. The newly established Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation has created a ?first books? program to provide subventions to young scholars seeking to publish their first book. Please see the attached notice. Please feel free to share this with scholars who may not subscribe to Indology or RISA. With best wishes, Patrick -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FirstBooksProject.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 48216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Mon Apr 8 17:16:36 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 07:16:36 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about kings poisoned by wives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks ao much Iris. This ia very helpful. Please do sens the pages. Best,J On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 1:06 AM farkhondeh iran wrote: > Dear Jesse, > > *Artha??stra* 1.20.16 mentions among others the queen who ? killed the > king of K??? by mixing fried grain with poison under the guise of honey. ? > > Here is the passage of the A? followed by Kangle?s translation: > > 1.20.16 l?j?n madhuneti vi?e?a paryasya dev? k???r?jam vi?adigdhena > n?pure?a vairantyam mekhal?ma?in? sauv?ram j?l?tham ?dar?ena, ve?y?? g??ha? > ?astra? k?tv? dev? vid?ratha? jagh?na. > ? The queen killed the king of K??? by mixing fried grain with poison > under the guise of honey; (the queen killed) Vairantya with an anklet > smeared with poison, the king of the Sauv?ras with a (poison-smeared) > girdle jewel, J?l?tha with a (poison-smeared) mirror; the queen killed > Vid?ratha by keeping a weapon concealed in the braid of her hair. ? (R.P. > Kangle, 1972, vol. 2, p. 50). > > You might also want to have a look at Kalha?a?s *R?jatara?gi??* 7.685 and > 8.1276-1278 where Vid?ratha is mentioned (vid?rath?div?tt?ntam (?) > kelik?a?e bruvan (?)). Medh?tithi?s commentary on Manu 7.153 mentions > anecdotes about kings who were assassinated by queens. I have written a few > pages in my PhD dissertation on this topic and I would be happy to share > them with you, even though my dissertation is in French. > > Kind regards, > Iris Iran Farkhondeh > > Iris Iran Farkhondeh > Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes > Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 > Mondes iranien et indien > 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 > iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > > > > Le 6 avr. 2019 ? 21:24, Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear Friends, To emphasize how careful the king should be even among his > intimates, the N?tis?ra presents a series of brief anecdotes about kings > who were assassinated by by their wives and family members for a variety of > reasons (specified concisely by the comm. Jayama?gal?). I was wondering if > any of you know these stories in more detail from other sources. These are > the stories of Bhadrasena (killed by his brother hiding in the queen's > quarters), K?r??a (killed by his son hiding under his mother's bed), a > certain K??ir?jendra (killed by wife with poisoned rice), Vair?pya (killed > with a poisoned girdle-jem), and J?ru?ya (killed by a small dagger hidden > in the queen's braid). Thanks and all best, ??????,J > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature > Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Mon Apr 8 17:34:57 2019 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 07:34:57 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] question about kings poisoned by wives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 7:16 AM Jesse Knutson wrote: > Thanks ao much Iris. This ia very helpful. Please do sens the pages. Best,J > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 1:06 AM farkhondeh iran > wrote: > >> Dear Jesse, >> >> *Artha??stra* 1.20.16 mentions among others the queen who ? killed the >> king of K??? by mixing fried grain with poison under the guise of honey. ? >> >> Here is the passage of the A? followed by Kangle?s translation: >> >> 1.20.16 l?j?n madhuneti vi?e?a paryasya dev? k???r?jam vi?adigdhena >> n?pure?a vairantyam mekhal?ma?in? sauv?ram j?l?tham ?dar?ena, ve?y?? g??ha? >> ?astra? k?tv? dev? vid?ratha? jagh?na. >> ? The queen killed the king of K??? by mixing fried grain with poison >> under the guise of honey; (the queen killed) Vairantya with an anklet >> smeared with poison, the king of the Sauv?ras with a (poison-smeared) >> girdle jewel, J?l?tha with a (poison-smeared) mirror; the queen killed >> Vid?ratha by keeping a weapon concealed in the braid of her hair. ? (R.P. >> Kangle, 1972, vol. 2, p. 50). >> >> You might also want to have a look at Kalha?a?s *R?jatara?gi??* 7.685 >> and 8.1276-1278 where Vid?ratha is mentioned (vid?rath?div?tt?ntam (?) >> kelik?a?e bruvan (?)). Medh?tithi?s commentary on Manu 7.153 mentions >> anecdotes about kings who were assassinated by queens. I have written a few >> pages in my PhD dissertation on this topic and I would be happy to share >> them with you, even though my dissertation is in French. >> >> Kind regards, >> Iris Iran Farkhondeh >> >> Iris Iran Farkhondeh >> Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes >> Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 >> Mondes iranien et indien >> 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 >> iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr >> >> >> >> Le 6 avr. 2019 ? 21:24, Jesse Knutson via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : >> >> Dear Friends, To emphasize how careful the king should be even among his >> intimates, the N?tis?ra presents a series of brief anecdotes about kings >> who were assassinated by by their wives and family members for a variety of >> reasons (specified concisely by the comm. Jayama?gal?). I was wondering if >> any of you know these stories in more detail from other sources. These are >> the stories of Bhadrasena (killed by his brother hiding in the queen's >> quarters), K?r??a (killed by his son hiding under his mother's bed), a >> certain K??ir?jendra (killed by wife with poisoned rice), Vair?pya (killed >> with a poisoned girdle-jem), and J?ru?ya (killed by a small dagger hidden >> in the queen's braid). Thanks and all best, ??????,J >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD >> Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature >> Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures >> University of Hawai'i at M?noa >> 461 Spalding >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> ps please forgive fast typing with fat fingers >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 19:35:06 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 21:35:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Iran, For me as white, blue eyes man is quite incredible that we are going to question the woman's quota and the need of gender symmetry in the academia (and in the politics too). I would like to know how many transgender people (M-to-F, F-to-M, transvestites, transgenders, etc.) applied for any academic position in the last 10 years, and how many of these application were accepted. Don't we need of quotas for non-binary genders? There is no gender equality in our capitalist and patriarchal world, that's why I strongly sustain the necessity of gender and "minorities" quotas. I do not want only white caucasian males dicide for my (and our) future. Giving gender quotas does not mean that female is the weaker gender. It means that female as well as non-binary genders are discriminated and we want to fight this discrimination. In a utopic society all the human being will be objectively considered. However, this society is extremely chauvinist and is excluding gender, linguistic, religious and ethnic minorities almost everywhere. In conclusion, I really feel uncomfortable that who always cares for gender issues is going to resign from the Indology committee. Best, Paolo --- Paolo E. Rosati PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section) Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Il lun 8 apr 2019, 14:32 farkhondeh iran via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > Dear colleagues, > > I would like to thank Isabelle Rati? and Dominik Wujastyk for their last > emails which had, inter alia, the merit of enabling us to grasp some of the > facts (it is a bit difficult to think in the void). I think we all agree > that gender equality is far from achieved. It seems that we disagree on the > best way to achieve it. I fully agree with Isabelle when she writes: > ? Adding a female member to the committee would have the pleasant advantage > of satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, and it is probably the best > way to quickly end this controversy; I remain in doubt, however, as to > whether this would constitute in any way a significant progress in the > struggle against gender bias and sexism. Let us keep our eyes on the > frontlines. ? > > As far as I?m concerned, I find that the quota policy is problematic. As a > woman, I would not want to be interviewed for a job, shortlisted, hired or > integrated into a committee for the mere reason that a woman was needed for > the sake of symmetry: I would like to be selected as a scholar for my > abilities and because people value my work. I think the best way to achieve > equal rights is to see each other as colleagues and individuals without > falling in the trap of essentializing the other. Fortunately human beings > disagree and that?s healthy that they do. I would not want a male colleague > to prevent himself from giving his opinion on my work because I?m a woman. > Gender bias exists for sure but, if we don?t see ourselves simply as > members of the ? weaker sex ?, then we should be glad to be criticized and > to be able to answer and defend our position when it is defensible. > > > Kind regards, > Iran > > Iris Iran Farkhondeh > Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes > Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 > Mondes iranien et indien > 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 > iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > > > Le 7 avr. 2019 ? 19:07, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > I am writing this email in my own voice, not as an INDOLOGY committee > statement. The committee has been reluctant to get into "you said, I said" > arguments, for good reasons including the fact that some points of > disagreement are hard to talk about without revealing confidential > information. > > Yesterday, Prof. Truschke posted a message ("I disagree that dealing ...", > appended below) that referenced a committee post that I sent last week and > made remarks about my opinon on bias training. So that INDOLOGY members > may see the context, here is the full text of the post that I sent to the > committee last week. I have redacted the names of the scholars we were > discussing (XXXX and YYYY are both women with appointments at Indian > universities). > > Subject: Re: suggestions for new committee members > From: Dominik Wujastyk > Cc: indology-owner > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f365830585b8fc88" > > --000000000000f365830585b8fc88 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Dear committee colleagues, > > I'm very busy and short of time (crazy last week of semester and academic > year, sick child at home, etc. etc. etc.), but I've been told that Audrey > has re-raised this issue about expanding the committee and inviting > specifically women participants to even out the gender balance. I agree, > as I've said before. So, since nobody else has done anything yet, I > propose that as do as we usually do when we're making committee decisions, > we have a vote. > > I propose that, following Stefan's suggestion from October last year, the > most recent I can quickly find, we invite the following two scholars to > join the INDOLOGY management committee: > > - Prof. XXXX (at academia.edu) > - Prof. YYYY (ditto) > > Shall we say that votes should be in within a week? 11 April. > > Criteria: this committee has never formalized criteria, or even really > discussed them. Should we? I would include that candidates should have a > record of being somewhat dynamic, i.e., answering email reasonably quickly, > and being willing and able to do the weekly-rota duties and having > professional experience in such things as student admission committees, > journal refereeing or other situations that would help with skills and > sensitivities needed to evaluate incoming short CVs. > > I would also draw attention to Stefan's important observation about > considering candidates from East Asia. Suggestions welcome. > > I think Audrey's idea of bias training is a good one; I don't think we can > formally require this of people, but when we invite new members we can > mention that we recommend this, and we should point to some online > resources, for example Harvard's ITA test (which is publicly available). > (My university uses the Harvard test as part of it's internal bias training > package; it's a bit clunky, but generally good.) Perhaps we can have a > committee vote on this issue separately if we want to. > > Best, > Dominik > INDOLOGY committee member > > > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 15:39, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues and Friends, >> >> I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment during >> the last year - and being required to keep mute by those who, in my view, >> treated me with bias - is not a serious matter (for those who have asked, >> please see my earlier notes giving a list of situations and behaviors, >> beyond a single case). I disagree even more that attention to such matters >> distracts from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal >> treatment is not a zero-sum game. >> >> In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that the INDOLOGY >> governing committee is not a safe place for me. I have been told in the >> past week that we cannot require bias training (that's bollocks - of course >> we can). There remains no grievance procedure or talk of instituting one. >> The committee is discussing adding another woman, but probably only one >> because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the thought >> that women might outnumber men on the committee. To quote this man: "Gender >> parity applies both ways, however. With the current active lineup, we only >> need to add *one* female member to give us parity...nothing further needs >> to be done." >> >> For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure here on >> INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I am leaving the >> committee and the list. In the end, this conversation has become about far >> more than me, and I hope that others continue that larger discussion. >> >> All the Best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicole.karapanagiotis at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:07:34 2019 From: nicole.karapanagiotis at gmail.com (Nicole Karapanagiotis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 16:07:34 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari Message-ID: Hi everyone, Apologies for the cross-posting on RISA. I have a student who is interested in studying contemporary debates regarding the attribution of the Saundarya Lahari to Shankara. I'm sort of at a loss on this one: does anyone know of any articles or book chapters to which I might point him? Thanks! Nicole Karapanagiotis -- Dr. Nicole Karapanagiotis, Ph.D. Asst. Professor of Religion Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey Department of Philosophy and Religion Camden College of Arts and Sciences 429 Cooper St., Room #303 Camden, NJ 08102 nicole.karapanagiotis at rutgers.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:03:50 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 17:03:50 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is a thread on the topic of "works attributed to Sankara" in the August 2018 Indology list archives. The link is: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-August/thread.html#142834 Harry Spier On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:08 PM Nicole Karapanagiotis via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Apologies for the cross-posting on RISA. > > I have a student who is interested in studying contemporary debates > regarding the attribution of the Saundarya Lahari to Shankara. I'm sort of > at a loss on this one: does anyone know of any articles or book chapters to > which I might point him? > > Thanks! > Nicole Karapanagiotis > > -- > Dr. Nicole Karapanagiotis, Ph.D. > Asst. Professor of Religion > Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey > Department of Philosophy and Religion > Camden College of Arts and Sciences > 429 Cooper St., Room #303 > Camden, NJ 08102 > nicole.karapanagiotis at rutgers.edu > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Apr 8 21:08:09 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 21:08:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nicole, W. Norman Brown, in his monograph on this text in the HOS, does address this issue in his introduction. He does not think the ascription to Shankara to be plausible, but thinks it may have been written by a later figure within Shankara's tradition, and, like certain other works of perhaps similar origins, subsequently attributed to the founding master. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Nicole Karapanagiotis via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 3:07:34 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari Hi everyone, Apologies for the cross-posting on RISA. I have a student who is interested in studying contemporary debates regarding the attribution of the Saundarya Lahari to Shankara. I'm sort of at a loss on this one: does anyone know of any articles or book chapters to which I might point him? Thanks! Nicole Karapanagiotis -- Dr. Nicole Karapanagiotis, Ph.D. Asst. Professor of Religion Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey Department of Philosophy and Religion Camden College of Arts and Sciences 429 Cooper St., Room #303 Camden, NJ 08102 nicole.karapanagiotis at rutgers.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:08:56 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 17:08:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In particular see this posting which discusses Sankaracarya as attributed author of the Saundarya Lahari Harry Spier On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 5:03 PM Harry Spier wrote: > There is a thread on the topic of "works attributed to Sankara" in the > August 2018 Indology list archives. The link is: > > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-August/thread.html#142834 > > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:08 PM Nicole Karapanagiotis via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> Apologies for the cross-posting on RISA. >> >> I have a student who is interested in studying contemporary debates >> regarding the attribution of the Saundarya Lahari to Shankara. I'm sort of >> at a loss on this one: does anyone know of any articles or book chapters to >> which I might point him? >> >> Thanks! >> Nicole Karapanagiotis >> >> -- >> Dr. Nicole Karapanagiotis, Ph.D. >> Asst. Professor of Religion >> Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey >> Department of Philosophy and Religion >> Camden College of Arts and Sciences >> 429 Cooper St., Room #303 >> Camden, NJ 08102 >> nicole.karapanagiotis at rutgers.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:11:18 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 17:11:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry I didn't put in the link for the posting that discusses Sankaracarya as author of Saundarya Lahari http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-August/142852.html Harry Spier >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:15:42 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 19 15:15:42 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paolo, Everyone on the INDOLOGY committee cares deeply about gender issues! And we act on our convictions. That we have been accused of not doing so does *not* make it true. Dominik Sent from Android phone On Mon, 8 Apr 2019, 14:03 Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Iran, > > For me as white, blue eyes man is quite incredible that we are going to > question the woman's quota and the need of gender symmetry in the academia > (and in the politics too). > > I would like to know how many transgender people (M-to-F, F-to-M, > transvestites, transgenders, etc.) applied for any academic position in the > last 10 years, and how many of these application were accepted. Don't we > need of quotas for non-binary genders? > > There is no gender equality in our capitalist and patriarchal world, > that's why I strongly sustain the necessity of gender and "minorities" > quotas. I do not want only white caucasian males dicide for my (and our) > future. Giving gender quotas does not mean that female is the weaker > gender. It means that female as well as non-binary genders are > discriminated and we want to fight this discrimination. > > In a utopic society all the human being will be objectively considered. > However, this society is extremely chauvinist and is excluding gender, > linguistic, religious and ethnic minorities almost everywhere. > > In conclusion, I really feel uncomfortable that who always cares for > gender issues is going to resign from the Indology committee. > > Best, > Paolo > > > --- > Paolo E. Rosati > PhD in Asian and African Studies > (South Asia Section) > Italian Institute of Oriental Studies > 'Sapienza' University of Rome > > https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > Il lun 8 apr 2019, 14:32 farkhondeh iran via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I would like to thank Isabelle Rati? and Dominik Wujastyk for their last >> emails which had, inter alia, the merit of enabling us to grasp some of the >> facts (it is a bit difficult to think in the void). I think we all agree >> that gender equality is far from achieved. It seems that we disagree on the >> best way to achieve it. I fully agree with Isabelle when she writes: >> ? Adding a female member to the committee would have the pleasant advantage >> of satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, and it is probably the best >> way to quickly end this controversy; I remain in doubt, however, as to >> whether this would constitute in any way a significant progress in the >> struggle against gender bias and sexism. Let us keep our eyes on the >> frontlines. ? >> >> As far as I?m concerned, I find that the quota policy is problematic. As >> a woman, I would not want to be interviewed for a job, shortlisted, hired >> or integrated into a committee for the mere reason that a woman was needed >> for the sake of symmetry: I would like to be selected as a scholar for my >> abilities and because people value my work. I think the best way to achieve >> equal rights is to see each other as colleagues and individuals without >> falling in the trap of essentializing the other. Fortunately human beings >> disagree and that?s healthy that they do. I would not want a male colleague >> to prevent himself from giving his opinion on my work because I?m a woman. >> Gender bias exists for sure but, if we don?t see ourselves simply as >> members of the ? weaker sex ?, then we should be glad to be criticized and >> to be able to answer and defend our position when it is defensible. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> Iran >> >> Iris Iran Farkhondeh >> Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes >> Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 >> Mondes iranien et indien >> 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 >> iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr >> >> >> Le 7 avr. 2019 ? 19:07, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : >> >> I am writing this email in my own voice, not as an INDOLOGY committee >> statement. The committee has been reluctant to get into "you said, I said" >> arguments, for good reasons including the fact that some points of >> disagreement are hard to talk about without revealing confidential >> information. >> >> Yesterday, Prof. Truschke posted a message ("I disagree that dealing >> ...", appended below) that referenced a committee post that I sent last >> week and made remarks about my opinon on bias training. So that INDOLOGY >> members may see the context, here is the full text of the post that I sent >> to the committee last week. I have redacted the names of the scholars we >> were discussing (XXXX and YYYY are both women with appointments at Indian >> universities). >> >> Subject: Re: suggestions for new committee members >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> Cc: indology-owner >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f365830585b8fc88" >> >> --000000000000f365830585b8fc88 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Dear committee colleagues, >> >> I'm very busy and short of time (crazy last week of semester and academic >> year, sick child at home, etc. etc. etc.), but I've been told that Audrey >> has re-raised this issue about expanding the committee and inviting >> specifically women participants to even out the gender balance. I agree, >> as I've said before. So, since nobody else has done anything yet, I >> propose that as do as we usually do when we're making committee decisions, >> we have a vote. >> >> I propose that, following Stefan's suggestion from October last year, the >> most recent I can quickly find, we invite the following two scholars to >> join the INDOLOGY management committee: >> >> - Prof. XXXX (at academia.edu) >> - Prof. YYYY (ditto) >> >> Shall we say that votes should be in within a week? 11 April. >> >> Criteria: this committee has never formalized criteria, or even really >> discussed them. Should we? I would include that candidates should have a >> record of being somewhat dynamic, i.e., answering email reasonably quickly, >> and being willing and able to do the weekly-rota duties and having >> professional experience in such things as student admission committees, >> journal refereeing or other situations that would help with skills and >> sensitivities needed to evaluate incoming short CVs. >> >> I would also draw attention to Stefan's important observation about >> considering candidates from East Asia. Suggestions welcome. >> >> I think Audrey's idea of bias training is a good one; I don't think we can >> formally require this of people, but when we invite new members we can >> mention that we recommend this, and we should point to some online >> resources, for example Harvard's ITA test (which is publicly available). >> (My university uses the Harvard test as part of it's internal bias training >> package; it's a bit clunky, but generally good.) Perhaps we can have a >> committee vote on this issue separately if we want to. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> INDOLOGY committee member >> >> >> >> On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 15:39, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues and Friends, >>> >>> I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment during >>> the last year - and being required to keep mute by those who, in my view, >>> treated me with bias - is not a serious matter (for those who have asked, >>> please see my earlier notes giving a list of situations and behaviors, >>> beyond a single case). I disagree even more that attention to such matters >>> distracts from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal >>> treatment is not a zero-sum game. >>> >>> In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that the >>> INDOLOGY governing committee is not a safe place for me. I have been told >>> in the past week that we cannot require bias training (that's bollocks - of >>> course we can). There remains no grievance procedure or talk of instituting >>> one. The committee is discussing adding another woman, but probably only >>> one because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the thought >>> that women might outnumber men on the committee. To quote this man: "Gender >>> parity applies both ways, however. With the current active lineup, we only >>> need to add *one* female member to give us parity...nothing further needs >>> to be done." >>> >>> For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure here on >>> INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I am leaving the >>> committee and the list. In the end, this conversation has become about far >>> more than me, and I hope that others continue that larger discussion. >>> >>> All the Best, >>> >>> Audrey >>> >>> Audrey Truschke >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of History >>> Rutgers University-Newark >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Mon Apr 8 21:35:12 2019 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 09:35:12 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1554759312.4767.7.camel@fastmail.com> Dear Paolo, You might find this useful: Karissa Sanbonmatsu | TEDWomen 2018 The biology of gender, from DNA to the brain http://bit.ly/2P0swAH https://www.ted.com/talks/karissa_sanbonmatsu_the_biology_of_gender_fro m_dna_to_the_brain Best, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY Reply-to: Dominik Wujastyk To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati Cc: Audrey Truschke , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 15:15:42 -0600 Paolo, Everyone on the INDOLOGY committee cares deeply about gender issues! And we act on our convictions. That we have been accused of not doing so does not make it true. Dominik Sent from Android phone On Mon, 8 Apr 2019, 14:03 Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY, wrote: > Dear Iran, > > For me as white, blue eyes man is quite incredible that we are going > to question the woman's quota and the need of gender symmetry in the > academia (and in the politics too). > > I would like to know how many transgender people (M-to-F, F-to-M, > transvestites, transgenders, etc.) applied for any academic position > in the last 10 years, and how many of these application were > accepted. Don't we need of quotas for non-binary genders? > > There is no gender equality in our capitalist and patriarchal world, > that's why I strongly sustain the necessity of gender and > "minorities" quotas. I do not want only white caucasian males dicide > for my (and our) future. Giving gender quotas does not mean that > female is the weaker gender. It means that female as well as non- > binary genders are discriminated and we want to fight this > discrimination. > > In a utopic society all the human being will be objectively > considered. However, this society is extremely chauvinist and is > excluding gender, linguistic, religious and ethnic minorities almost > everywhere. > > In conclusion, I really feel uncomfortable that who always cares for > gender issues is going to resign from the Indology committee. > > Best, > Paolo > > > --- > Paolo E. Rosati > PhD in Asian and African Studies > (South Asia Section) > Italian Institute of Oriental Studies > 'Sapienza' University of Rome > > https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > Il lun 8 apr 2019, 14:32 farkhondeh iran via INDOLOGY indology.info> ha scritto: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I would like to thank Isabelle Rati? and Dominik Wujastyk for their > > last emails which had, inter alia, the merit of enabling us to > > grasp some of the facts (it is a bit difficult to think in the > > void). I think we all agree that gender equality is far from > > achieved. It seems that we disagree on the best way to achieve it. > > I fully agree with Isabelle when she writes: ? Adding a female > > member to the committee would have the pleasant advantage of > > satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, and it is probably the > > best way to quickly end this controversy; I remain in doubt, > > however, as to whether this would constitute in any way a > > significant progress in the struggle against gender bias and > > sexism. Let us keep our eyes on the frontlines. ? > > > > As far as I?m concerned, I find that the quota policy is > > problematic. As a woman, I would not want to be interviewed for a > > job, shortlisted, hired or integrated into a committee for the mere > > reason that a woman was needed for the sake of symmetry: I would > > like to be selected as a scholar for my abilities and because > > people value my work. I think the best way to achieve equal rights > > is to see each other as colleagues and individuals without falling > > in the trap of essentializing the other. Fortunately human beings > > disagree and that?s healthy that they do. I would not want a male > > colleague to prevent himself from giving his opinion on my work > > because I?m a woman. Gender bias exists for sure but, if we don?t > > see ourselves simply as members of the ? weaker sex ?, then we > > should be glad to be criticized and to be able to answer and defend > > our position when it is defensible. > > > > Kind regards, > > Iran > > > > Iris Iran Farkhondeh > > Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes > > Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 > > Mondes iranien et indien > > 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 > > iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > > > > > > > Le 7 avr. 2019 ? 19:07, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > > ist.indology.info> a ?crit : > > > > > > I am writing this email in my own voice, not as an INDOLOGY > > > committee statement. The committee has been reluctant to get into > > > "you said, I said" arguments, for good reasons including the fact > > > that some points of disagreement are hard to talk about without > > > revealing confidential information. > > > > > > Yesterday, Prof. Truschke posted a message ("I disagree that > > > dealing ...", appended below) that referenced a committee post > > > that I sent last week and made remarks about my opinon on bias > > > training. So that INDOLOGY members may see the context, here is > > > the full text of the post that I sent to the committee last > > > week. I have redacted the names of the scholars we were > > > discussing (XXXX and YYYY are both women with appointments at > > > Indian universities). > > > > > > Subject: Re: suggestions for new committee members > > > From: Dominik Wujastyk > > > Cc: indology-owner > > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > > > boundary="000000000000f365830585b8fc88" > > > > > > --000000000000f365830585b8fc88 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > Dear committee colleagues, > > > > > > I'm very busy and short of time (crazy last week of semester and > > > academic > > > year, sick child at home, etc. etc. etc.), but I've been told > > > that Audrey > > > has re-raised this issue about expanding the committee and > > > inviting > > > specifically women participants to even out the gender > > > balance. I agree, > > > as I've said before. So, since nobody else has done anything > > > yet, I > > > propose that as do as we usually do when we're making committee > > > decisions, > > > we have a vote. > > > > > > I propose that, following Stefan's suggestion from October last > > > year, the > > > most recent I can quickly find, we invite the following two > > > scholars to > > > join the INDOLOGY management committee: > > > > > > - Prof. XXXX (at academia.edu) > > > - Prof. YYYY (ditto) > > > > > > Shall we say that votes should be in within a week? 11 April. > > > > > > Criteria: this committee has never formalized criteria, or even > > > really > > > discussed them. Should we? I would include that candidates > > > should have a > > > record of being somewhat dynamic, i.e., answering email > > > reasonably quickly, > > > and being willing and able to do the weekly-rota duties and > > > having > > > professional experience in such things as student admission > > > committees, > > > journal refereeing or other situations that would help with > > > skills and > > > sensitivities needed to evaluate incoming short CVs. > > > > > > I would also draw attention to Stefan's important observation > > > about > > > considering candidates from East Asia. Suggestions welcome. > > > > > > I think Audrey's idea of bias training is a good one; I don't > > > think we can > > > formally require this of people, but when we invite new members > > > we can > > > mention that we recommend this, and we should point to some > > > online > > > resources, for example Harvard's ITA test (which is publicly > > > available). > > > (My university uses the Harvard test as part of it's internal > > > bias training > > > package; it's a bit clunky, but generally good.) Perhaps we can > > > have a > > > committee vote on this issue separately if we want to. > > > > > > Best, > > > Dominik > > > INDOLOGY committee member > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 15:39, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > > gy at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > > Dear Colleagues and Friends, > > > > > > > > I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment > > > > during the last year - and being required to keep mute by those > > > > who, in my view, treated me with bias - is not a serious matter > > > > (for those who have asked, please see my earlier notes giving a > > > > list of situations and behaviors, beyond a single case). I > > > > disagree even more that attention to such matters distracts > > > > from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal > > > > treatment is not a zero-sum game. > > > > > > > > In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that > > > > the INDOLOGY governing committee is not a safe place for me. I > > > > have been told in the past week that we cannot require bias > > > > training (that's bollocks - of course we can). There remains no > > > > grievance procedure or talk of instituting one. The committee > > > > is discussing adding another woman, but probably only one > > > > because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the > > > > thought that women might outnumber men on the committee. To > > > > quote this man: "Gender parity applies both ways, however. With > > > > the current active lineup, we only need to add *one* female > > > > member to give us parity...nothing further needs to be done." > > > > > > > > For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure > > > > here on INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I > > > > am leaving the committee and the list. In the end, this > > > > conversation has become about far more than me, and I hope that > > > > others continue that larger discussion. > > > > > > > > All the Best, > > > > > > > > Audrey > > > > > > > > Audrey Truschke > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of History > > > > Rutgers University-Newark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > > > managing committee) > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > > > options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > > options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From julie.vig at utoronto.ca Tue Apr 9 01:58:29 2019 From: julie.vig at utoronto.ca (Julie Vig) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 01:58:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] University of Toronto - Encounters in Premodern South Asia Message-ID: Dear governing committee, Would you kindly accept to circulate my message below about a workshop on premodern South Asia in Toronto? Many thanks and best wishes, Julie Dear colleagues, We have an exciting workshop coming up on April 13-14 at the University of Toronto on the theme of encounters in premodern South Asia. 15 scholars will join us at the Department for the Study of Religion for two days of stimulating presentations and productive discussions on the notion of encounters. The workshop will take place in the Jackman Humanities Building, room 418, on Saturday, and in room 318 on Sunday: https://goo.gl/maps/2d2AHFFKUGQ2 The participants are: Anne Murphy (UBC), Christoph Emmrich (U of T), Dolores Pizarro Minakakis (U Hamburg), Genoveva Castro Meagher (U of W), Gregory Clines (Trinity University), Hasan Siddiqui (UBC), Karen Ruffle (U of T), Luther Obrock (U of T), Pasha Mohammad Khan (McGill), Pegah Shahbaz (UBC/McGill), Prashant Keshavmurthy (McGill), Robin Rinehart (Lafayette), Rahul Bjorn Parson (U Colorado, Boulder), Timothy Lorndale (UPenn/McGill), and Usman Hamid (U of T). There will be lunch, coffee/tea, and snacks available for everyone attending. If you have any questions, please email me at julie.vig at utoronto.ca I very much look forward to seeing you in great numbers. Please share widely within your circles. With best wishes, Julie Julie Vig Assistant Professor Department for the Study of Religion University of Toronto -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Apr 9 05:41:03 2019 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 05:41:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention In-Reply-To: <461FA20B-EDEC-4C10-913A-50F63B2D766C@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Dear Patrick, The past few days I have had occasion to reflect on what I perceived as American normative imperialism, and to appreciate my fine female colleagues in French Indology who have spoken out with healthy nuance on some sensitive issues. Now you share the announcement of a "first book subvention" instated in name of two Indologists who began their careers on this side of the Atlantic to support the work "of young scholars in the field of classical Indology". Great. But ... the announcement limits the meaning of "academic presses" to "either US university presses or the US offices of foreign academic presses, such as Oxford University Press". As far as I know, there are very few institutions in the USA today which even recognize such as field as "classical Indology". May I ask what is the rationale for limiting the scope of this subvention to young scholars who wish to publish in the USA, and who produce a kind of scholarship that is sufficiently compatible with normative conceptions of scholarship that are current in American academia to be publishable (by a young scholar) over there? I could come up with a rather long list of "first books" that have, in my view, made important contributions to classical Indology but were not and probably could not have been published by any of the presses intended in your announcement. I wonder why this subvention would want to exclude such scholarship. With warm greetings, from France, Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 3:28 PM To: Indology; +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention Dear All: Apologies for cross-posting. The newly established Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation has created a ?first books? program to provide subventions to young scholars seeking to publish their first book. Please see the attached notice. Please feel free to share this with scholars who may not subscribe to Indology or RISA. With best wishes, Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 09:47:07 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 11:47:07 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Message-ID: Dear indologists, Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, mathematics and more specifically geometry? With the best wishes, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr Tue Apr 9 11:28:58 2019 From: iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr (farkhondeh iran) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 13:28:58 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sexism and Bias on INDOLOGY governing committee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CDEAB1B-EC4F-4360-AEFF-D58AB1E8FA88@yahoo.fr> Dear Paolo, I am not saying that we should put a complete end to the quota system, I am just saying that it is problematic and that I doubt that it really solves the problem. As you have pointed out, there is no end to that, should we have quotas for all the excluded groups and all the minorities? As far as I?m concerned, I don?t think that we should segment humanity, I don?t think that it would be needed to have someone from each minority or excluded group to represent it. We don?t need to belong to a group to defend its members. Or else you could only represent blue eyed male Indologists and I could only represent 5 feet female Indologists. Is that what we really want? I think that there are no inherent biological difference between us, be it in our DNA or in our brains. The world is for sure far from utopic. But I think to try and make it a bit better, the only way is that human beings, regardless of the group to which they might belong, take an active part to oppose all forms of segregation. I?m glad that our male colleagues also stand against gender bias. Kind regards, Iran Iris Iran Farkhondeh Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 Mondes iranien et indien iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > Le 8 avr. 2019 ? 21:35, Paolo Eugenio Rosati a ?crit : > > Dear Iran, > > For me as white, blue eyes man is quite incredible that we are going to question the woman's quota and the need of gender symmetry in the academia (and in the politics too). > > I would like to know how many transgender people (M-to-F, F-to-M, transvestites, transgenders, etc.) applied for any academic position in the last 10 years, and how many of these application were accepted. Don't we need of quotas for non-binary genders? > > There is no gender equality in our capitalist and patriarchal world, that's why I strongly sustain the necessity of gender and "minorities" quotas. I do not want only white caucasian males dicide for my (and our) future. Giving gender quotas does not mean that female is the weaker gender. It means that female as well as non-binary genders are discriminated and we want to fight this discrimination. > > In a utopic society all the human being will be objectively considered. However, this society is extremely chauvinist and is excluding gender, linguistic, religious and ethnic minorities almost everywhere. > > In conclusion, I really feel uncomfortable that who always cares for gender issues is going to resign from the Indology committee. > > Best, > Paolo > > > --- > Paolo E. Rosati > PhD in Asian and African Studies > (South Asia Section) > Italian Institute of Oriental Studies > 'Sapienza' University of Rome > > https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > Il lun 8 apr 2019, 14:32 farkhondeh iran via INDOLOGY > ha scritto: > Dear colleagues, > > I would like to thank Isabelle Rati? and Dominik Wujastyk for their last emails which had, inter alia, the merit of enabling us to grasp some of the facts (it is a bit difficult to think in the void). I think we all agree that gender equality is far from achieved. It seems that we disagree on the best way to achieve it. I fully agree with Isabelle when she writes: ? Adding a female member to the committee would have the pleasant advantage of satisfying everybody's sense of symmetry, and it is probably the best way to quickly end this controversy; I remain in doubt, however, as to whether this would constitute in any way a significant progress in the struggle against gender bias and sexism. Let us keep our eyes on the frontlines. ? > > As far as I?m concerned, I find that the quota policy is problematic. As a woman, I would not want to be interviewed for a job, shortlisted, hired or integrated into a committee for the mere reason that a woman was needed for the sake of symmetry: I would like to be selected as a scholar for my abilities and because people value my work. I think the best way to achieve equal rights is to see each other as colleagues and individuals without falling in the trap of essentializing the other. Fortunately human beings disagree and that?s healthy that they do. I would not want a male colleague to prevent himself from giving his opinion on my work because I?m a woman. Gender bias exists for sure but, if we don?t see ourselves simply as members of the ? weaker sex ?, then we should be glad to be criticized and to be able to answer and defend our position when it is defensible. > > Kind regards, > Iran > > Iris Iran Farkhondeh > Docteur en ?tudes Indiennes > Universit? Sorbonne Nouvelle - Paris 3 > Mondes iranien et indien > 00 33 6.30.18.20.31 > iran_farkhondeh at yahoo.fr > > >> Le 7 avr. 2019 ? 19:07, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : >> >> I am writing this email in my own voice, not as an INDOLOGY committee statement. The committee has been reluctant to get into "you said, I said" arguments, for good reasons including the fact that some points of disagreement are hard to talk about without revealing confidential information. >> >> Yesterday, Prof. Truschke posted a message ("I disagree that dealing ...", appended below) that referenced a committee post that I sent last week and made remarks about my opinon on bias training. So that INDOLOGY members may see the context, here is the full text of the post that I sent to the committee last week. I have redacted the names of the scholars we were discussing (XXXX and YYYY are both women with appointments at Indian universities). >> >> Subject: Re: suggestions for new committee members >> From: Dominik Wujastyk > >> Cc: indology-owner > >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f365830585b8fc88" >> >> --000000000000f365830585b8fc88 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Dear committee colleagues, >> >> I'm very busy and short of time (crazy last week of semester and academic >> year, sick child at home, etc. etc. etc.), but I've been told that Audrey >> has re-raised this issue about expanding the committee and inviting >> specifically women participants to even out the gender balance. I agree, >> as I've said before. So, since nobody else has done anything yet, I >> propose that as do as we usually do when we're making committee decisions, >> we have a vote. >> >> I propose that, following Stefan's suggestion from October last year, the >> most recent I can quickly find, we invite the following two scholars to >> join the INDOLOGY management committee: >> >> - Prof. XXXX (at academia.edu ) >> - Prof. YYYY (ditto) >> >> Shall we say that votes should be in within a week? 11 April. >> >> Criteria: this committee has never formalized criteria, or even really >> discussed them. Should we? I would include that candidates should have a >> record of being somewhat dynamic, i.e., answering email reasonably quickly, >> and being willing and able to do the weekly-rota duties and having >> professional experience in such things as student admission committees, >> journal refereeing or other situations that would help with skills and >> sensitivities needed to evaluate incoming short CVs. >> >> I would also draw attention to Stefan's important observation about >> considering candidates from East Asia. Suggestions welcome. >> >> I think Audrey's idea of bias training is a good one; I don't think we can >> formally require this of people, but when we invite new members we can >> mention that we recommend this, and we should point to some online >> resources, for example Harvard's ITA test (which is publicly available). >> (My university uses the Harvard test as part of it's internal bias training >> package; it's a bit clunky, but generally good.) Perhaps we can have a >> committee vote on this issue separately if we want to. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> INDOLOGY committee member >> >> >> On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 15:39, Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> Dear Colleagues and Friends, >> >> I disagree that dealing with multiple cases of sexist treatment during the last year - and being required to keep mute by those who, in my view, treated me with bias - is not a serious matter (for those who have asked, please see my earlier notes giving a list of situations and behaviors, beyond a single case). I disagree even more that attention to such matters distracts from the larger fight for gender equality. Demanding equal treatment is not a zero-sum game. >> >> In the meantime, behind the scenes, it has become clear that the INDOLOGY governing committee is not a safe place for me. I have been told in the past week that we cannot require bias training (that's bollocks - of course we can). There remains no grievance procedure or talk of instituting one. The committee is discussing adding another woman, but probably only one because a male committee member has expressed discomfort at the thought that women might outnumber men on the committee. To quote this man: "Gender parity applies both ways, however. With the current active lineup, we only need to add *one* female member to give us parity...nothing further needs to be done." >> >> For me, I choose to no longer contribute to a power structure here on INDOLOGY that I think is too ugly to overlook, and so I am leaving the committee and the list. In the end, this conversation has become about far more than me, and I hope that others continue that larger discussion. >> >> All the Best, >> >> Audrey >> >> Audrey Truschke >> Assistant Professor >> Department of History >> Rutgers University-Newark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Tue Apr 9 11:41:27 2019 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rocher, Rosane D) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 11:41:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <568624a0-05a3-7b56-8d51-b635c18fc355@sas.upenn.edu> Dear Arlo Griffiths and colleagues, The Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation is a non-profit private foundation incorporated in the State of Pennsylvania and subject to regulations of the US government and of the State of Pennsylvania for such foundations. We proceed under advice from legal counsel. The inspiration for this foundation, which Ludo and I took steps to set up in the last years of his life, was the Glasenapp Stiftung, established for the advancement of German Indology. Although we have lived in different times and in different legal environments, we share the same goal of being as inclusive as we legally can on behalf of Indology. After more than a decade when Ludo's prolonged illness and, even before, his increasing deafness prevented us from attending the annual meetings of the American Oriental Society, I have been cheered in the past two years to witness a new crop of Indologists, not only from North America, but also from diverse countries such as England, Denmark, India, and our native country of Belgium, present papers on the basis of their dissertations in progress or recently completed. I invite you to attend these meetings or at least to look at the online programs of these meetings. You will have no difficulty recognizing blossoming demonstrations of classical Indology and promises for its future, if adequately supported. Ludo had his dissertation published, in English, by the University of Ghent. Mine was published, in French, under an agreement between the Presses Universitaires de Bruxelles and the Presses Universitaires de France, at Louis Renou's recommendation. We have not forgotten our European past and the advantage at which a published dissertation put us. The estate of two Indologists is not that a billionaire. Ludo and I had no fantasy of accomplishing everything that Indology could use. But it has always been our hope and it remains my goal to foster young growth. Hence "first books" as the first initiative of our foundation. There will be other initiatives, particularly when the foundation is fully funded at my death. In the mean time, I encourage caring established Indologists to provide young Indologists all the support they legally can everywhere. Je serai de passage ? Paris, Munich, Bonn, et Detmold pendant les deux semaines ? venir. Ce me serait un plaisir de vous y rencontrer. Beste groeten, Rosane Rocher Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies, University of Pennsylvania President, The Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation On 4/9/19 1:41 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Patrick, The past few days I have had occasion to reflect on what I perceived as American normative imperialism, and to appreciate my fine female colleagues in French Indology who have spoken out with healthy nuance on some sensitive issues. Now you share the announcement of a "first book subvention" instated in name of two Indologists who began their careers on this side of the Atlantic to support the work "of young scholars in the field of classical Indology". Great. But ... the announcement limits the meaning of "academic presses" to "either US university presses or the US offices of foreign academic presses, such as Oxford University Press". As far as I know, there are very few institutions in the USA today which even recognize such as field as "classical Indology". May I ask what is the rationale for limiting the scope of this subvention to young scholars who wish to publish in the USA, and who produce a kind of scholarship that is sufficiently compatible with normative conceptions of scholarship that are current in American academia to be publishable (by a young scholar) over there? I could come up with a rather long list of "first books" that have, in my view, made important contributions to classical Indology but were not and probably could not have been published by any of the presses intended in your announcement. I wonder why this subvention would want to exclude such scholarship. With warm greetings, from France, Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 3:28 PM To: Indology; +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention Dear All: Apologies for cross-posting. The newly established Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation has created a ?first books? program to provide subventions to young scholars seeking to publish their first book. Please see the attached notice. Please feel free to share this with scholars who may not subscribe to Indology or RISA. With best wishes, Patrick _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelleragathe600 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 11:52:01 2019 From: kelleragathe600 at gmail.com (Agathe Keller) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 04:52:01 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Paolo, this article of R. C. Gupta might be of interest to you, although only a couple of paragraphs are devoted to Tantric diagrams perse: Gupta, R. C. 2007. ?Yantras or Mystic Diagrams: A Wide Area for Study in Ancient and Medieval Indian Mathematics.? *Indian Journal of History of Science* 42 (2): 163-2014. There is also quite a literature on magic squares?but i?m not sure that this is what you are aiming at best Agathe From: Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY Reply: Paolo Eugenio Rosati Date: 9 April 2019 at 11:48:07 To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear indologists, Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, mathematics and more specifically geometry? With the best wishes, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies * (South Asia Section) *Italian Institute of Oriental Studies* 'Sapienza' University of Rome *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue Apr 9 12:48:18 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 12:48:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Paolo, Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting article in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit analysis of poetic metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the full reference available in my present location, but it may be found in the introduction to the late Michael Hahn's edition of the ChandoratnAkara, which may be available on his academia page, if that is still accessible. In Buddhist tantra, quite a lot has been written on the mathematics of the KAlacakratantra. The late Edward Henning's webpage kalacakra.org has some useful material on this, as does Henning's book, KAlacakra and the Tibetan Calendar. There is also quite a lot on this in German, by Dieter Schuh, but exclusively concerned with the Tibetan legacy of the Indian sources and not with the Indian materials themselves. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 4:47:07 AM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear indologists, Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, mathematics and more specifically geometry? With the best wishes, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section) Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slindqui at mail.smu.edu Tue Apr 9 12:59:45 2019 From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 12:59:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention In-Reply-To: <568624a0-05a3-7b56-8d51-b635c18fc355@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <97A8BE55-25B6-423F-8EB0-EDB3DE51E568@smu.edu> Dear Rosane and List, This is absolutely wonderful and generous of you and Ludo! The field of Indology will definitely be the better for it. My sincere hope is that others will consider following suit if and when they are able. A note for those who might not be aware: Non-profit status in the US comes with a variety of rules, most of which require that any payments be kept within US borders and/or institutions (i.e., tax-free status is premised on the outcome of benefiting the local economy). There are exceptions, of course, but they are very complicated and are principally carried out by large organizations. My best, Steven STEVEN E. LINDQUIST, PH.D. ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES ____________________ Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275-0202 Email: slindqui at smu.edu Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Indology Reply-To: "Rocher, Rosane D" Date: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 6:42 AM To: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention Dear Arlo Griffiths and colleagues, The Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation is a non-profit private foundation incorporated in the State of Pennsylvania and subject to regulations of the US government and of the State of Pennsylvania for such foundations. We proceed under advice from legal counsel. The inspiration for this foundation, which Ludo and I took steps to set up in the last years of his life, was the Glasenapp Stiftung, established for the advancement of German Indology. Although we have lived in different times and in different legal environments, we share the same goal of being as inclusive as we legally can on behalf of Indology. After more than a decade when Ludo's prolonged illness and, even before, his increasing deafness prevented us from attending the annual meetings of the American Oriental Society, I have been cheered in the past two years to witness a new crop of Indologists, not only from North America, but also from diverse countries such as England, Denmark, India, and our native country of Belgium, present papers on the basis of their dissertations in progress or recently completed. I invite you to attend these meetings or at least to look at the online programs of these meetings. You will have no difficulty recognizing blossoming demonstrations of classical Indology and promises for its future, if adequately supported. Ludo had his dissertation published, in English, by the University of Ghent. Mine was published, in French, under an agreement between the Presses Universitaires de Bruxelles and the Presses Universitaires de France, at Louis Renou's recommendation. We have not forgotten our European past and the advantage at which a published dissertation put us. The estate of two Indologists is not that a billionaire. Ludo and I had no fantasy of accomplishing everything that Indology could use. But it has always been our hope and it remains my goal to foster young growth. Hence "first books" as the first initiative of our foundation. There will be other initiatives, particularly when the foundation is fully funded at my death. In the mean time, I encourage caring established Indologists to provide young Indologists all the support they legally can everywhere. Je serai de passage ? Paris, Munich, Bonn, et Detmold pendant les deux semaines ? venir. Ce me serait un plaisir de vous y rencontrer. Beste groeten, Rosane Rocher Professor Emerita of South Asia Studies, University of Pennsylvania President, The Ludo and Rosane Rocher Foundation (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Tue Apr 9 13:07:36 2019 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 15:07:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190409150736.Horde.B-N_5Mb-hxP8aI77CGZMLw8@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> > Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting > article in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit > analysis of poetic metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the > full reference available in my present location, but it may be found > in the introduction to the late Michael Hahn's edition of the > ChandoratnAkara The reference is found on p. 5 f. of Hahn's introduction: Naya Raj Pant: /Py?skalena svopaj?am iti prakhy?pitam p???ga?itatribhuja? V?ttaratn?karoktaikadvy?dilagakriyaiva/ (?The arithmetical triangle, claimed to be his own discovery by Pascal, is nothing but the /Ekadvy?dilagakriy?/ as told in the /V?ttaratn?kara/?), published in the first volume of /Jayatu Sa?sk?tam/, 1:4 Vikramasa?vat 2017 (1960), pp. 1-8, Kathmandu. Best, Roland Steiner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:16:22 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 15:16:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: <20190409150736.Horde.B-N_5Mb-hxP8aI77CGZMLw8@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: Dear Agathe, Dear Matthew, Dear Roland, Thank you, Paolo Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> Il giorno mar 9 apr 2019 alle ore 15:08 Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > > > Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting > > article in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit > > analysis of poetic metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the > > full reference available in my present location, but it may be found > > in the introduction to the late Michael Hahn's edition of the > > ChandoratnAkara > > The reference is found on p. 5 f. of Hahn's introduction: > > Naya Raj Pant: *Py?skalena svopaj?am iti prakhy?pitam p???ga?itatribhuja? > V?ttaratn?karoktaikadvy?dilagakriyaiva* (?The arithmetical triangle, > claimed to be his own discovery by Pascal, is nothing but the > *Ekadvy?dilagakriy?* as told in the *V?ttaratn?kara*?), published in the > first volume of *Jayatu Sa?sk?tam*, 1:4 Vikramasa?vat 2017 (1960), pp. > 1-8, Kathmandu. > > Best, > Roland Steiner > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies ?'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelleragathe600 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:19:23 2019 From: kelleragathe600 at gmail.com (Agathe Keller) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 06:19:23 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Matthew, On the topic of combinatorics (including Pascal triangle), Pi?gala and his commentators there is a classical article by Ludwig Alsdorf Die Pratyayas. Ein Beitrag zur indischen Mathematik". Zeitschrift fur Indologie und Iranistik, 9 (1933), pp. 97-157; reprinted in: Albrecht Wezler (ed.), Ludwig Alsdorf: Kleine Schriften, Wiesbaden, 1974, pp. 600-660. This paper was translated into English by Sarma, S. R. 1991. ?The Pratyayas: Indian Contributions to Combinatorics.? Indian Journal of History of Science 26: 17?61. although much still needs to be investigated, there are quite a number of publications on this topic actually? best Agathe From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Reply: Matthew Kapstein Date: 9 April 2019 at 14:49:06 To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear Paolo, Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting article in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit analysis of poetic metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the full reference available in my present location, but it may be found in the introduction to the late Michael Hahn's edition of the ChandoratnAkara, which may be available on his academia page, if that is still accessible. In Buddhist tantra, quite a lot has been written on the mathematics of the KAlacakratantra. The late Edward Henning's webpage kalacakra.org has some useful material on this, as does Henning's book, KAlacakra and the Tibetan Calendar. There is also quite a lot on this in German, by Dieter Schuh, but exclusively concerned with the Tibetan legacy of the Indian sources and not with the Indian materials themselves. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ------------------------------ *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2019 4:47:07 AM *To:* Indology *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear indologists, Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, mathematics and more specifically geometry? With the best wishes, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* (South Asia Section) *Italian Institute of Oriental Studies* 'Sapienza' University of Rome *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:21:11 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 18:51:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Sri Paolo-ji, The following may come under what you are looking for: https://www.insa.nic.in/writereaddata/UpLoadedFiles/IJHS/Vol19_3_7_APKulaichev.pdf On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 PM Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear indologists, > > Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, > mathematics and more specifically geometry? > > With the best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati * > > > > *PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of > Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > > > Mail > priva di virus. www.avast.com > > <#m_-3058655340892901736_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue Apr 9 13:25:11 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 13:25:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Agathe, I wasn't intending to refer to Indian mathematics broadly, but just to the application outside of mathematics per se. Besides poetic metrics and "tantric geometry", I imagine that the musicological literature offers some other examples, but i do not know them off hand. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Agathe Keller Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:19:23 AM To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati; Matthew Kapstein; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear Matthew, On the topic of combinatorics (including Pascal triangle), Pi?gala and his commentators there is a classical article by Ludwig Alsdorf Die Pratyayas. Ein Beitrag zur indischen Mathematik". Zeitschrift fur Indologie und Iranistik, 9 (1933), pp. 97-157; reprinted in: Albrecht Wezler (ed.), Ludwig Alsdorf: Kleine Schriften, Wiesbaden, 1974, pp. 600-660. This paper was translated into English by Sarma, S. R. 1991. ?The Pratyayas: Indian Contributions to Combinatorics.? Indian Journal of History of Science 26: 17?61. although much still needs to be investigated, there are quite a number of publications on this topic actually? best Agathe From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Reply: Matthew Kapstein Date: 9 April 2019 at 14:49:06 To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear Paolo, Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting article in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit analysis of poetic metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the full reference available in my present location, but it may be found in the introduction to the late Michael Hahn's edition of the ChandoratnAkara, which may be available on his academia page, if that is still accessible. In Buddhist tantra, quite a lot has been written on the mathematics of the KAlacakratantra. The late Edward Henning's webpage kalacakra.org has some useful material on this, as does Henning's book, KAlacakra and the Tibetan Calendar. There is also quite a lot on this in German, by Dieter Schuh, but exclusively concerned with the Tibetan legacy of the Indian sources and not with the Indian materials themselves. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY > Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 4:47:07 AM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear indologists, Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, mathematics and more specifically geometry? With the best wishes, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section) Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:33:42 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 15:33:42 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Paturi, thank you. Yes, I am looking also for such studies, which are more based on hard sciences rather than on soft sciences. I am also looking for some trans-disciplinary studies on Tantric architectures (and arts) approached through the lens of geometry, arithmetic, and algebra. Best wishes, Paolo Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> Il giorno mar 9 apr 2019 alle ore 15:21 Nagaraj Paturi < nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> ha scritto: > Dear Sri Paolo-ji, > > The following may come under what you are looking for: > > > https://www.insa.nic.in/writereaddata/UpLoadedFiles/IJHS/Vol19_3_7_APKulaichev.pdf > > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 PM Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear indologists, >> >> Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, >> mathematics and more specifically geometry? >> >> With the best wishes, >> Paolo >> >> -- >> *Paolo E. Rosati * >> >> >> >> *PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section)Italian Institute >> of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* >> >> *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ >> * >> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it >> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com >> Skype: paoloe.rosati >> Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 >> >> >> >> Mail >> priva di virus. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_2027468140466398229_m_-3058655340892901736_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies ?'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 9 13:36:06 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 06:36:06 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?? ??? ????????? ???????????? ??????? ? ???? ????????????? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ??????? Radhika says: "O Best of Yadus, do not run along the bank of Yamuna to look for me. Open your heart, and you will see me residing there." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelleragathe600 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:43:30 2019 From: kelleragathe600 at gmail.com (Agathe Keller) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 06:43:30 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Matthew, Alsdorf?s article is indeed on combinatorics in the metrical literature, not in mathematics? as for combinatorics in music there is notably in French Patte, Fran?ois. 2012. ?Rythmes et Algorithmes.? In *Astronomy and Mathematics in Ancient India - Astronomie et Math?matiques de l?Inde Ancienne Actes de La Journ?e d??tudes Organis?e Le 24 Avril 2009 ? l?Universit? Libre de Bruxelles*, edited by Jean-Michel Delire, 159?174. Peeters. and recently Petrocchi Alessandra. 2018. ?Music Theory, Mathematics, and Patterns of Innovation in the Sa?g?taratn?kara.? *Asiatische Studien - ?tudes Asiatiques* 72 (2): 395. https://doi.org/10.1515/asia-2016-0003. best Agathe From: Matthew Kapstein Reply: Matthew Kapstein Date: 9 April 2019 at 15:25:13 To: Agathe Keller , Paolo Eugenio Rosati , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Thank you Agathe, I wasn't intending to refer to Indian mathematics broadly, but just to the application outside of mathematics per se. Besides poetic metrics and "tantric geometry", I imagine that the musicological literature offers some other examples, but i do not know them off hand. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ------------------------------ *From:* Agathe Keller *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:19:23 AM *To:* Paolo Eugenio Rosati; Matthew Kapstein; Indology *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear Matthew, On the topic of combinatorics (including Pascal triangle), Pi?gala and his commentators there is a classical article by Ludwig Alsdorf Die Pratyayas. Ein Beitrag zur indischen Mathematik". Zeitschrift fur Indologie und Iranistik, 9 (1933), pp. 97-157; reprinted in: Albrecht Wezler (ed.), Ludwig Alsdorf: Kleine Schriften, Wiesbaden, 1974, pp. 600-660. This paper was translated into English by Sarma, S. R. 1991. ?The Pratyayas: Indian Contributions to Combinatorics.? Indian Journal of History of Science 26: 17?61. although much still needs to be investigated, there are quite a number of publications on this topic actually? best Agathe From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Reply: Matthew Kapstein Date: 9 April 2019 at 14:49:06 To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati , Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear Paolo, Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting article in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit analysis of poetic metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the full reference available in my present location, but it may be found in the introduction to the late Michael Hahn's edition of the ChandoratnAkara, which may be available on his academia page, if that is still accessible. In Buddhist tantra, quite a lot has been written on the mathematics of the KAlacakratantra. The late Edward Henning's webpage kalacakra.org has some useful material on this, as does Henning's book, KAlacakra and the Tibetan Calendar. There is also quite a lot on this in German, by Dieter Schuh, but exclusively concerned with the Tibetan legacy of the Indian sources and not with the Indian materials themselves. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ------------------------------ *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2019 4:47:07 AM *To:* Indology *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra Dear indologists, Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, mathematics and more specifically geometry? With the best wishes, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* (South Asia Section) *Italian Institute of Oriental Studies* 'Sapienza' University of Rome *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com <#x_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France Agathe Keller tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 B?timent Condorcet Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A Office: 6th floor 688 A 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet 75013 PARIS Postal Address : Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 Equipe Sphere Case 7093 5 rue Thomas Mann 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:43:01 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 19:13:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://protein.bio.msu.ru/~akula/Kulaichev%20Addition.pdf On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 6:51 PM Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Dear Sri Paolo-ji, > > The following may come under what you are looking for: > > > https://www.insa.nic.in/writereaddata/UpLoadedFiles/IJHS/Vol19_3_7_APKulaichev.pdf > > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 PM Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear indologists, >> >> Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, >> mathematics and more specifically geometry? >> >> With the best wishes, >> Paolo >> >> -- >> *Paolo E. Rosati * >> >> >> >> *PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section)Italian Institute >> of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* >> >> *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ >> * >> paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it >> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com >> Skype: paoloe.rosati >> Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 >> >> >> >> Mail >> priva di virus. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-3645617094221252166_m_-4717151697912609782_m_-3058655340892901736_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:59:07 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 19:29:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://sriyantraresearch.com/Construction/HowtoDraw/how_to_draw_sri_yantra.htm http://alumni.cse.ucsc.edu/~mikel/sriyantra/golden.html http://maxwellsci.com/print/rjaset/v4-2241-2246.pdf On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 PM Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear indologists, > > Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, > mathematics and more specifically geometry? > > With the best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati * > > > > *PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of > Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > > > Mail > priva di virus. www.avast.com > > <#m_-3058655340892901736_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:38:41 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 20:08:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27164469 The subtle body: an interoceptive map of central nervous system function and meditative mind-brain-body integration. On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:14 PM Agathe Keller via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Matthew, > > Alsdorf?s article is indeed on combinatorics in the metrical literature, > not in mathematics? > as for combinatorics in music there is notably in French > > Patte, Fran?ois. 2012. ?Rythmes et Algorithmes.? In *Astronomy and > Mathematics in Ancient India - Astronomie et Math?matiques de l?Inde > Ancienne Actes de La Journ?e d??tudes Organis?e Le 24 Avril 2009 ? > l?Universit? Libre de Bruxelles*, edited by Jean-Michel Delire, 159?174. > Peeters. > > and recently > Petrocchi Alessandra. 2018. ?Music Theory, Mathematics, and Patterns of > Innovation in the Sa?g?taratn?kara.? *Asiatische Studien - ?tudes > Asiatiques* 72 (2): 395. https://doi.org/10.1515/asia-2016-0003. > > best > > Agathe > > From: Matthew Kapstein > Reply: Matthew Kapstein > Date: 9 April 2019 at 15:25:13 > To: Agathe Keller , > Paolo Eugenio Rosati , > Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra > > Thank you Agathe, > > > I wasn't intending to refer to Indian mathematics broadly, but just to the > application outside of mathematics per se. Besides poetic metrics and > "tantric geometry", I imagine that the musicological literature offers some > other examples, but i do not know them off hand. > > > best, > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* Agathe Keller > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:19:23 AM > *To:* Paolo Eugenio Rosati; Matthew Kapstein; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra > > Dear Matthew, > > On the topic of combinatorics (including Pascal triangle), Pi?gala and his > commentators there is a classical article by Ludwig Alsdorf > > Die Pratyayas. Ein Beitrag zur indischen Mathematik". Zeitschrift fur > Indologie und Iranistik, 9 (1933), pp. 97-157; reprinted in: Albrecht > Wezler (ed.), Ludwig Alsdorf: Kleine Schriften, Wiesbaden, 1974, pp. > 600-660. > > This paper was translated into English by Sarma, S. R. 1991. ?The > Pratyayas: Indian Contributions to Combinatorics.? Indian Journal of > History of Science 26: 17?61. > > although much still needs to be investigated, there are quite a number of > publications on this topic actually? > > best > > Agathe > > From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > > Reply: Matthew Kapstein > Date: 9 April 2019 at 14:49:06 > To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati > , Indology > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra > > Dear Paolo, > > > Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting article > in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit analysis of poetic > metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the full reference available in > my present location, but it may be found in the introduction to the late > Michael Hahn's edition of the ChandoratnAkara, which may be available on > his academia page, if that is still accessible. > > > > In Buddhist tantra, quite a lot has been written on the mathematics of the > KAlacakratantra. The late Edward Henning's webpage kalacakra.org has some > useful material on this, as does Henning's book, KAlacakra and the Tibetan > Calendar. > > > There is also quite a lot on this in German, by Dieter Schuh, but > exclusively concerned with the Tibetan legacy of the Indian sources and not > with the Indian materials themselves. > > > best, > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Paolo > Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2019 4:47:07 AM > *To:* Indology > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra > > Dear indologists, > > Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, > mathematics and more specifically geometry? > > With the best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati* > *PhD in Asian and African Studies* > (South Asia Section) > *Italian Institute of Oriental Studies* > 'Sapienza' University of Rome > > > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > > > Mail > priva di virus. www.avast.com > > <#m_-4287310583714126860_x_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > Agathe Keller > > tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 > > Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 > B?timent Condorcet > Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A > Office: 6th floor 688 A > 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet > 75013 PARIS > > Postal Address : > Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS > Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 > Equipe Sphere > Case 7093 > 5 rue Thomas Mann > 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 > France > > Agathe Keller > > tel : +33 1 57 27 68 87 > > Universit? Paris 7 Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 > B?timent Condorcet > Parcels: 3? ?tage bureau 387A > Office: 6th floor 688 A > 10 rue A.Domont et L.Duquet > 75013 PARIS > > Postal Address : > Universit? Paris 7 - CNRS > Laboratoire SPHERE UMR 7219 > Equipe Sphere > Case 7093 > 5 rue Thomas Mann > 75205 PARIS CEDEX 13 > France > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:48:15 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 20:18:15 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3cf8/c96b8acc8cf65df7d61ff8bbc3294089f091.pdf discusses reviews and tries to connect and critique science and non-science approaches to chakras. On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 PM Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear indologists, > > Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, > mathematics and more specifically geometry? > > With the best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati * > > > > *PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of > Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > > > Mail > priva di virus. www.avast.com > > <#m_-3058655340892901736_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ramkrishna.bhattacharya at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 15:11:31 2019 From: ramkrishna.bhattacharya at gmail.com (Ramkrishna Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 20:41:31 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] email id of David Reagle Message-ID: Dear Dominik, Could you please provide me me with the above? Yours collegially, Ramkrishna Ramkrishna Bhattacharya, 3, Mohanlal Street, Kolkata 700 004, India. 91-033-25551288 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicole.karapanagiotis at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:27:10 2019 From: nicole.karapanagiotis at gmail.com (Nicole Karapanagiotis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 15:27:10 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saundarya Lahari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so much, everyone. This was really helpful. Nicole -- Dr. Nicole Karapanagiotis, Ph.D. Asst. Professor of Religion Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey Department of Philosophy and Religion Camden College of Arts and Sciences 429 Cooper St., Room #303 Camden, NJ 08102 nicole.karapanagiotis at rutgers.edu On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 5:11 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Sorry I didn't put in the link for the posting that discusses Sankaracarya > as author of Saundarya Lahari > > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-August/142852.html > Harry Spier > > >>> -- Dr. Nicole Karapanagiotis, Ph.D. Asst. Professor of Religion Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey Department of Philosophy and Religion Camden College of Arts and Sciences 429 Cooper St., Room #303 Camden, NJ 08102 nicole.karapanagiotis at rutgers.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slindqui at mail.smu.edu Tue Apr 9 19:53:29 2019 From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 19:53:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention In-Reply-To: <97A8BE55-25B6-423F-8EB0-EDB3DE51E568@smu.edu> Message-ID: <74B09AB3-7811-424F-9900-AFEDA3EE762A@smu.edu> On a related note, let me draw everyone's attention to a recent article in The Chronicle of Higher Education on monograph publishing and subventions (attached). Obviously, some of the issues discussed may play out differently in different contexts, but it is good to think with. In particular, my interest is how some of us?given that our career choices are likely leave us with rather modest assets?might be able to positively affect future generations of the field. Funding subventions (and, I would add, also conference travel grants for grad students) is a fantastic route where smaller amounts of money can go a very long way. My best, Steven STEVEN E. LINDQUIST, PH.D. ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES ____________________ Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275-0202 Email: slindqui at smu.edu Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WorriedAbouttheFutureoftheMonograph_SoArePublishers-TheChronicleofHigherEducation.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 460819 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 20:36:16 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 19 14:36:16 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First Book Subvention In-Reply-To: <74B09AB3-7811-424F-9900-AFEDA3EE762A@smu.edu> Message-ID: The Rocher publication bequest is thoughtful and generous and will be a godsend to early-career scholars in Indian studies. The Gonda Fund may not be as well known as it deserves as another potential source of support for Indological publications. In addition to the fellowships for research at IIAS, the Gonda Fund also covers funding for: - a project or publication in Indology by researchers or scientific publishers - PhD student grants for promising PhD students for a special research project, a working visit abroad, or another activity. Elegibility for this support is not limited to any country or publisher. Read more . Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 13:54, Lindquist, Steven via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > On a related note, let me draw everyone's attention to a recent article in *The > Chronicle of Higher Education* on monograph publishing and subventions > (attached). Obviously, some of the issues discussed may play out > differently in different contexts, but it is good to think with. In > particular, my interest is how some of us?given that our career choices are > likely leave us with rather modest assets?might be able to positively > affect future generations of the field. Funding subventions (and, I would > add, also conference travel grants for grad students) is a fantastic route > where smaller amounts of money can go a very long way. > > > > My best, > > > > Steven > > > > > > STEVEN E. LINDQUIST, PH.D. > > ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES > > DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES > > ____________________ > > > > Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU > PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275-0202 > Email: slindqui at smu.edu > Web:* http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui * > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 10 13:29:19 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 06:29:19 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ???? ???: ????? ????? ????? ?? ? ?????????? ??????????? ? ??? ???? ????? ??????? Radhika says: " With me in your heart, how could you be lonely? You are not separated from me even for a moment." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 10 16:32:23 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 09:32:23 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSBNYWl0csSBeWHhuYfEqy1QYXJpxZtp4bmj4bmtYT8=?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I wonder if anyone has any information regarding a text called Maitr?ya?? Pari????a. I came across a reference to this text in a travel account by a Marathi Brahmin [???? ??????, by ?????????? ?????] around 1857. In Gwalior, there was a ??stra discussion about the appropriate month for Upanayana of a Maitr?ya?? child, and this text was consulted in that discussion. The account says that the Maitr?ya?? household in Gwalior followed the traditions of the Gau?a brahmins. This interestingly contrasts with the fight of the Maitr?ya?? community in Maharashtra to be counted among Dr?vi?a brahmins, something that I have discussed in an article. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 10 18:14:08 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 11:14:08 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gTWFpdHLEgXlh4bmHxKstUGFyacWbaeG5o+G5rWE/?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is the specific passage from Vishnu Bhataji Godse's ???? ?????? (reprint edition in 1974, Venus Prakashan, Pune, pp. 30-31; in my English translation): "In the city of Gwalior, the Upanayana of the son of a well known person occurred in the month of ????ha. There was a meeting regarding this in the Vitthal temple and on that occasion many scholars such as R?m?c?rya had come. The Upanayana was done following the opinion of a pandit named T?tu D?k?ita Bha?kamkar, who was a famous Veda reciter who could recite the R?gveda upto ghanap??ha. Mr. Bha?kamkar established that it is justified to perform the Upanayana of a Brahmin in the month of ????ha until Vi??u?ayana based on references from Smr?tis, S?tras and the Maitr?ya??ya Pari????a, and the Pa?cagau?a brahmins from Mathur? testified at this meeting that it is a tradition among the Pa?cagau?a brahmins to perform the Upanayana in the month of ????ha. Pandit Bha?kamkar performed the Upanayana in the month of ????ha, and the meeting concluded that this was done according to the ??stras." This account describes the visit of Vishnu Bhataji Godse to north India in 1857. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:32 AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I wonder if anyone has any information regarding a text called > Maitr?ya?? Pari????a. I came across a reference to this text in a travel > account by a Marathi Brahmin [???? ??????, by ?????????? ?????] around > 1857. In Gwalior, there was a ??stra discussion about the appropriate > month for Upanayana of a Maitr?ya?? child, and this text was consulted in > that discussion. The account says that the Maitr?ya?? household in Gwalior > followed the traditions of the Gau?a brahmins. This interestingly > contrasts with the fight of the Maitr?ya?? community in Maharashtra to be > counted among Dr?vi?a brahmins, something that I have discussed in an > article. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 18:43:51 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 00:13:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nirnay Sagar Font Regular weight completed. Message-ID: Dear all The regular weight is now complete of Nirnaya Sagar. The earlier fonts announced as Vani Vilas is too from Nirnay sagar. An information about Nirnay Sagar Fonts Nitin Nimbalkar has posted an information on Facebook and I am sharing here. JAVJI DADAJI CHAUDHARY. This is the story of a nearly illiterate man who on his mere abilities became a renowned personality in printing business of 19th century. JAVJI was born in a poor Maharashtrian family in 1839. Having lost his father at a very tender age, Javji had to discontinue his education at the age of 9 & had to begin earning for his livelihood. Around the same time, Thomas Graham of American mission had started the Mission's "Type foundry"/printing press in Bhendi Bazar area. Javji joined the foundry/press on salary of Rs.2/- per month & was given a work of rubbing/polishing of Types (letter mould) in the foundry. He worked there for 10 yrs. & made himself so proficient in Type cutting & casting that when the press was taken over by Times of India in 1859, Javjis service was continued with salary of Rs.10/- per month. In 1862 Javji left TOI & joined newly started InduPrakash press as Type-caster on salary of Rs.15/- & then to Oriental printing press on Rs.30/- & was assigned the work of Type founding. He mastered & further developed the art that he had learnt in this period & established his own Type-foundry in 1864 by borrowing capital of Rs.700/- from Firojshah Meharji, proprietor of Bombay Samachar & Khuma Sheth, a money lender. His efforts in Type cutting & subsequent inventions of Types were universally acclaimed & were in demand in foreign countries as well. Soon in addition to Type foundry he started his own Printing Press in 1867 in Kalbadevi area of Bombay. Very next year in 1868 Javji undertook printing of "Panchang" (almnac) by specially cutting the small "Types" for this work & named it "Nirnay Sagar" Panchang. Soon it was a part of almost every house hold in Maharashtra. He therefore named his press as Nirnay Sagar press. Sanskrit scripts had its own complexities for composing & printing where exact pronunciation needed to be reproduced while printing. Javji designed his own "Akhand Type" for Devnagari scripts. His Sanskrit publications under the banner of Nirnay Sagar became famous not only in India but all over the world where Sanskrit was studied. He was awarded Justice of Peace in 1892. Unfortunately in the same year he breathed his last after a brief illness. During his working span his foundry established 20 Marathi Type fonts, 40 English, 15 Gujarati and Hindi, 2 Hebrew & 1 Kannada Type fonts. Besides, he had casted 7 varieties of Types specially for (Vaidic) Sanskrit. In his life time Nirnay Sagar press published & printed 193 Sanskrit & 228 Marathi books of its own & the press and foundry together had employed 250 workers. His legacy was carried on by his son Tukaram Javji. The father son duo was honoured by naming two roads in Bombay's Tardeo area after them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: newfont.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 32477 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 10 18:49:00 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 11:49:00 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nirnay Sagar Font Regular weight completed. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks excellent. Have you designed the font in multiple weights? Italics? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:44 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all > The regular weight is now complete of Nirnaya Sagar. The earlier fonts > announced as Vani Vilas is too from Nirnay sagar. > > An information about Nirnay Sagar Fonts > > Nitin Nimbalkar has posted an information on Facebook and I am sharing > here. > > > JAVJI DADAJI CHAUDHARY. > This is the story of a nearly illiterate man who on his mere abilities > became a renowned personality in printing business of 19th century. JAVJI > was born in a poor Maharashtrian family in 1839. Having lost his father at > a very tender age, Javji had to discontinue his education at the age of 9 & > had to begin earning for his livelihood. Around the same time, Thomas > Graham of American mission had started the Mission's "Type > foundry"/printing press in Bhendi Bazar area. Javji joined the > foundry/press on salary of Rs.2/- per month & was given a work of > rubbing/polishing of Types (letter mould) in the foundry. He worked there > for 10 yrs. & made himself so proficient in Type cutting & casting that > when the press was taken over by Times of India in 1859, Javjis service was > continued with salary of Rs.10/- per month. In 1862 Javji left TOI & joined > newly started InduPrakash press as Type-caster on salary of Rs.15/- & then > to Oriental printing press on Rs.30/- & was assigned the work of Type > founding. He mastered & further developed the art that he had learnt in > this period & established his own Type-foundry in 1864 by borrowing > capital of Rs.700/- from Firojshah Meharji, proprietor of Bombay Samachar & > Khuma Sheth, a money lender. His efforts in Type cutting & subsequent > inventions of Types were universally acclaimed & were in demand in foreign > countries as well. Soon in addition to Type foundry he started his own > Printing Press in 1867 in Kalbadevi area of Bombay. Very next year in 1868 > Javji undertook printing of "Panchang" (almnac) by specially cutting the > small "Types" for this work & named it "Nirnay Sagar" Panchang. Soon it was > a part of almost every house hold in Maharashtra. He therefore named his > press as Nirnay Sagar press. Sanskrit scripts had its own complexities for > composing & printing where exact pronunciation needed to be reproduced > while printing. Javji designed his own "Akhand Type" for Devnagari scripts. > His Sanskrit publications under the banner of Nirnay Sagar became famous > not only in India but all over the world where Sanskrit was studied. He was > awarded Justice of Peace in 1892. Unfortunately in the same year he > breathed his last after a brief illness. During his working span his > foundry established 20 Marathi Type fonts, 40 English, 15 Gujarati and > Hindi, 2 Hebrew & 1 Kannada Type fonts. Besides, he had casted 7 varieties > of Types specially for (Vaidic) Sanskrit. In his life time Nirnay Sagar > press published & printed 193 Sanskrit & 228 Marathi books of its own & the > press and foundry together had employed 250 workers. His legacy was carried > on by his son Tukaram Javji. The father son duo was honoured by naming two > roads in Bombay's Tardeo area after them. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:02:21 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 00:32:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nirnay Sagar Font Regular weight completed. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Prof. Deshpande Ji Thanks for your appreciation. The planned weights and designs were like this. 3 Font Families Planned. 1. The one used in Vani Vilas Press (Even these were created by Nirnay sagar) in Regular, Regular italics, Bold, Bold italics and Light, with Light italics. 2. Nirnay Sagar Fonts used in Hitopadesha, Kavya mala Series etc In Regular , Regular italics, Bold, Bold italics. 3. A design of our own. With 3 weights plus itlacs which is equal 6 weights. Accomplished work in Vani Vilas press 1. Regular plus italics 2. Bold plus italics Only Light weight is pending. Accomplished work in Nirnay Sagar 1. Regular plus italics Bold is pending Our own design Light weight is pending. All the italics weights are just the modification in rules. No separate effort is required as in Bold weights etc. Complete fonts are available for everyone in the month of June. Krishna Prasad On Thu 11 Apr, 2019, 12:19 AM Madhav Deshpande, wrote: > Looks excellent. Have you designed the font in multiple weights? Italics? > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:44 AM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all >> The regular weight is now complete of Nirnaya Sagar. The earlier fonts >> announced as Vani Vilas is too from Nirnay sagar. >> >> An information about Nirnay Sagar Fonts >> >> Nitin Nimbalkar has posted an information on Facebook and I am sharing >> here. >> >> >> JAVJI DADAJI CHAUDHARY. >> This is the story of a nearly illiterate man who on his mere abilities >> became a renowned personality in printing business of 19th century. JAVJI >> was born in a poor Maharashtrian family in 1839. Having lost his father at >> a very tender age, Javji had to discontinue his education at the age of 9 & >> had to begin earning for his livelihood. Around the same time, Thomas >> Graham of American mission had started the Mission's "Type >> foundry"/printing press in Bhendi Bazar area. Javji joined the >> foundry/press on salary of Rs.2/- per month & was given a work of >> rubbing/polishing of Types (letter mould) in the foundry. He worked there >> for 10 yrs. & made himself so proficient in Type cutting & casting that >> when the press was taken over by Times of India in 1859, Javjis service was >> continued with salary of Rs.10/- per month. In 1862 Javji left TOI & joined >> newly started InduPrakash press as Type-caster on salary of Rs.15/- & then >> to Oriental printing press on Rs.30/- & was assigned the work of Type >> founding. He mastered & further developed the art that he had learnt in >> this period & established his own Type-foundry in 1864 by borrowing >> capital of Rs.700/- from Firojshah Meharji, proprietor of Bombay Samachar & >> Khuma Sheth, a money lender. His efforts in Type cutting & subsequent >> inventions of Types were universally acclaimed & were in demand in foreign >> countries as well. Soon in addition to Type foundry he started his own >> Printing Press in 1867 in Kalbadevi area of Bombay. Very next year in 1868 >> Javji undertook printing of "Panchang" (almnac) by specially cutting the >> small "Types" for this work & named it "Nirnay Sagar" Panchang. Soon it was >> a part of almost every house hold in Maharashtra. He therefore named his >> press as Nirnay Sagar press. Sanskrit scripts had its own complexities for >> composing & printing where exact pronunciation needed to be reproduced >> while printing. Javji designed his own "Akhand Type" for Devnagari scripts. >> His Sanskrit publications under the banner of Nirnay Sagar became famous >> not only in India but all over the world where Sanskrit was studied. He was >> awarded Justice of Peace in 1892. Unfortunately in the same year he >> breathed his last after a brief illness. During his working span his >> foundry established 20 Marathi Type fonts, 40 English, 15 Gujarati and >> Hindi, 2 Hebrew & 1 Kannada Type fonts. Besides, he had casted 7 varieties >> of Types specially for (Vaidic) Sanskrit. In his life time Nirnay Sagar >> press published & printed 193 Sanskrit & 228 Marathi books of its own & the >> press and foundry together had employed 250 workers. His legacy was carried >> on by his son Tukaram Javji. The father son duo was honoured by naming two >> roads in Bombay's Tardeo area after them. >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprigliano at usp.br Wed Apr 10 23:30:31 2019 From: aprigliano at usp.br (Adriano Aprigliano) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 20:30:31 -0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Transmission of sanskrit grammatical concepts/terminology to Europe Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I'm looking for articles and/or books dealing with the transmission of sanskrit/paninian concepts/terminology to Europe. Terms such as root, afix and the like I have been hearing for long were calques from sanskrit grammar terms (dhaatu, pratyaya...), but never went as far as to dig the exact sources that brought them in. Now a student of morphology here in S?o Paulo asks for my help to find them. I'd appreciate your help. Thanks Adriano *Prof. Dr. Adriano Aprigliano* L?ngua e Literatura Latina - DLCV - FFLCH Universidade de S?o Paulo Gabinete 30, tel.: 3091 2065 Av. Prof. Luciano Gualberto, 403 CEP: 05508-900 Cidade Universit?ria, S?o Paulo - SP / Brasil -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 11 00:42:41 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 17:42:41 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gTWFpdHLEgXlh4bmHxKstUGFyacWbaeG5o+G5rWE/?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I checked the two Maitr?ya?? Pari?i??as, namely Gon?mika and Caturhotr?ka, published by Raghu Vira in the Journal of Vedic Studies, and neither of them has anything with reference to Upanayana. So it must be some other Maitr?ya?? Pari?i??a that the ???? ?????? account seems to be referring to. Vishal Agarwal says: "The Prince of Wales Museum at Mumbai has a manuscript containing all these [Maitr?ya??] Parishishtas." I wonder if these manuscripts have been digitized and if there is a way to access them? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:14 AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Here is the specific passage from Vishnu Bhataji Godse's ???? ?????? > (reprint edition in 1974, Venus Prakashan, Pune, pp. 30-31; in my English > translation): "In the city of Gwalior, the Upanayana of the son of a well > known person occurred in the month of ????ha. There was a meeting > regarding this in the Vitthal temple and on that occasion many scholars > such as R?m?c?rya had come. The Upanayana was done following the opinion > of a pandit named T?tu D?k?ita Bha?kamkar, who was a famous Veda reciter > who could recite the R?gveda upto ghanap??ha. Mr. Bha?kamkar established > that it is justified to perform the Upanayana of a Brahmin in the month of > ????ha until Vi??u?ayana based on references from Smr?tis, S?tras and the > Maitr?ya??ya Pari????a, and the Pa?cagau?a brahmins from Mathur? testified > at this meeting that it is a tradition among the Pa?cagau?a brahmins to > perform the Upanayana in the month of ????ha. Pandit Bha?kamkar performed > the Upanayana in the month of ????ha, and the meeting concluded that this > was done according to the ??stras." This account describes the visit of > Vishnu Bhataji Godse to north India in 1857. > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:32 AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I wonder if anyone has any information regarding a text called >> Maitr?ya?? Pari????a. I came across a reference to this text in a travel >> account by a Marathi Brahmin [???? ??????, by ?????????? ?????] around >> 1857. In Gwalior, there was a ??stra discussion about the appropriate >> month for Upanayana of a Maitr?ya?? child, and this text was consulted in >> that discussion. The account says that the Maitr?ya?? household in Gwalior >> followed the traditions of the Gau?a brahmins. This interestingly >> contrasts with the fight of the Maitr?ya?? community in Maharashtra to be >> counted among Dr?vi?a brahmins, something that I have discussed in an >> article. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "???????????????????" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 01:21:27 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 19:21:27 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Transmission of sanskrit grammatical concepts/terminology to Europe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Adriano, Frits Staals 1972 *A Reader on the Sanskrit Grammarians* is a mine of information on the reception of Skt. grammar by early European scholars. Still available in hard copy from Amazon, and downloadable from Monoskop . I've been thinking that the next time I teach a course on vyakarana (I just finished one), I'll use Staal 1972 and the new ?abda book that has just come out by Johannes Bronkhorst. That's a solid foundation for students right there. -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 03:00:18 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 08:30:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Searching for Catalog PDF 1967 Message-ID: Dear all I am searching for this Font Catalog (Please find attached) printed in 1967, from Nirnay Sagar Press. Please provide some information about either a library or a PDF copy Thanks KP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG-20190411-WA0001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 54760 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 11 03:10:15 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 19 20:10:15 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Searching for Catalog PDF 1967 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Krishnaprasad, The most likely place where you may find this book is the library ????? ????? ?????????????? in Dadar, Mumbai. Here is their website: http://www.mumbaimgs.org/ I have used this library once or twice before for some rare Marathi publications. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:01 PM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all > I am searching for this Font Catalog (Please find attached) printed in > 1967, from Nirnay Sagar Press. > Please provide some information about either a library or a PDF copy > Thanks > KP > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 03:53:23 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 05:53:23 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Transmission of sanskrit grammatical concepts/terminology to Europe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Adriano, Apart from Frits Staal's *A Reader on the Sanskrit Grammarians* (Cambridge, MIT 1972), one could mention among many other publications Staal's *Universals: Studies in Indian logic and linguistics* (Chicago 1988), and Prof. Rosane Rocher's *La Th?orie des voix du verbe dans l'?cole p??in?enne* (Bruxelles 1968) and her "The concept of the verbal root in Indian grammar" in *Foundations of Language* 5, pp. 73-82. In a forthcoming volume ed. by Axel Michaels and Christoph Wulf (proceedings of the Delhi 2015 conference on "Scientification and Scientism in the Humanities"), I contributed an article "The Art of Grammar" discussing the 'scientification' in the reception of the Sanskrit grammatical knowledge system in Europe and in modern linguistics, and observed, *inter alia*: "On the rules, skilfully formulated by several generations of grammarians up to P??ini, a formalism was superimposed and finally brought to perfection by P??ini. Behind it, the skilful and even artful choices of description all but disappeared except to the discerning eye of a few critical thinkers, including the earliest great grammarian-philosopher in the P??inian tradition, Bhart?hari (fifth century CE), who at a few occasions emphasised the ?arbitrariness? of the descriptive choices. The formalism is, moreover, not everywhere equally strict and becomes even occasionally sketchy where the archaic language of the Vedic texts is concerned (Thieme 1935). In contrast, in the Greek and Hellenic worlds the grammar of Dionysius Thrax (second century BC), which was indeed much less profound in its linguistic analysis ? no concept of the verbal root, for instance, had ever been applied to the ancient Greek language until this was done by Franz Bopp and other linguists of the 19th century inspired by the dh?tu of Sanskrit grammarians ? and which lacked the formal sophistication of P??ini, did not hide its nature as an art, and was known under the title of Art of Grammar, the ????? ?????????? (Kemp 1986; Law & Sluiter 1995)." Best regards, Jan -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 01:31, Adriano Aprigliano via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for articles and/or books dealing with the transmission of > sanskrit/paninian concepts/terminology to Europe. Terms such as root, afix > and the like I have been hearing for long were calques from sanskrit > grammar terms (dhaatu, pratyaya...), but never went as far as to dig the > exact sources that brought them in. Now a student of morphology here in S?o > Paulo asks for my help to find them. > I'd appreciate your help. > Thanks > Adriano > > *Prof. Dr. Adriano Aprigliano* > L?ngua e Literatura Latina - DLCV - FFLCH > Universidade de S?o Paulo > Gabinete 30, tel.: 3091 2065 > Av. Prof. Luciano Gualberto, 403 CEP: 05508-900 > Cidade Universit?ria, S?o Paulo - SP / Brasil > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprigliano at usp.br Thu Apr 11 11:12:58 2019 From: aprigliano at usp.br (Adriano Aprigliano) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 08:12:58 -0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Transmission of sanskrit grammatical concepts/terminology to Europe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd like to thank Dominik W. nd Jan H. for the referentes they've sent. Best Adriano Em qui, 11 de abr de 2019 00:53, Jan E.M. Houben escreveu: > Dear Adriano, > Apart from Frits Staal's *A Reader on the Sanskrit Grammarians* > (Cambridge, MIT 1972), one could mention among many other publications > Staal's *Universals: Studies in Indian logic and linguistics* (Chicago > 1988), and Prof. Rosane Rocher's *La Th?orie des voix du verbe dans > l'?cole p??in?enne* (Bruxelles 1968) and her "The concept of the verbal > root in Indian grammar" in *Foundations of Language* 5, pp. 73-82. > In a forthcoming volume ed. by Axel Michaels and Christoph Wulf > (proceedings of the Delhi 2015 conference on "Scientification and Scientism > in the Humanities"), I contributed an article "The Art of Grammar" > discussing the 'scientification' in the reception of the Sanskrit > grammatical knowledge system in Europe and in modern linguistics, and > observed, *inter alia*: > "On the rules, skilfully formulated by several generations of grammarians > up to P??ini, a formalism was superimposed and finally brought to > perfection by P??ini. Behind it, the skilful and even artful choices of > description all but disappeared except to the discerning eye of a few > critical thinkers, including the earliest great grammarian-philosopher in > the P??inian tradition, Bhart?hari (fifth century CE), who at a few > occasions emphasised the ?arbitrariness? of the descriptive choices. The > formalism is, moreover, not everywhere equally strict and becomes even > occasionally sketchy where the archaic language of the Vedic texts is > concerned (Thieme 1935). In contrast, in the Greek and Hellenic worlds the > grammar of Dionysius Thrax (second century BC), which was indeed much less > profound in its linguistic analysis ? no concept of the verbal root, for > instance, had ever been applied to the ancient Greek language until this > was done by Franz Bopp and other linguists of the 19th century inspired by > the dh?tu of Sanskrit grammarians ? and which lacked the formal > sophistication of P??ini, did not hide its nature as an art, and was known > under the title of Art of Grammar, the ????? ?????????? (Kemp 1986; Law & > Sluiter 1995)." > Best regards, Jan > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 01:31, Adriano Aprigliano via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I'm looking for articles and/or books dealing with the transmission of >> sanskrit/paninian concepts/terminology to Europe. Terms such as root, afix >> and the like I have been hearing for long were calques from sanskrit >> grammar terms (dhaatu, pratyaya...), but never went as far as to dig the >> exact sources that brought them in. Now a student of morphology here in S?o >> Paulo asks for my help to find them. >> I'd appreciate your help. >> Thanks >> Adriano >> >> *Prof. Dr. Adriano Aprigliano* >> L?ngua e Literatura Latina - DLCV - FFLCH >> Universidade de S?o Paulo >> Gabinete 30, tel.: 3091 2065 >> Av. Prof. Luciano Gualberto, 403 CEP: 05508-900 >> Cidade Universit?ria, S?o Paulo - SP / Brasil >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 12:19:06 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 08:19:06 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Transmission of sanskrit grammatical concepts/terminology to Europe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do The Sabda Reader selections contain the original sanskrit along with the translations? Thanks, Harry Spier On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:22 PM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Adriano, > > Frits Staals 1972 *A Reader on the Sanskrit Grammarians* is a mine of > information on the reception of Skt. grammar by early European scholars. > Still available in hard copy from Amazon, and downloadable from Monoskop > . > > I've been thinking that the next time I teach a course on vyakarana (I > just finished one), I'll use Staal 1972 and the new ?abda book > that has > just come out by Johannes Bronkhorst. That's a solid foundation for > students right there. > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Apr 11 12:47:21 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 12:47:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] information about journal Message-ID: Dear List members, I am looking for a paper by Julie Alyssa Hanlon, titled "Early History of Jainism and Migration to South India", published in a journal called ?rama?a, vol. 64 (3), pp. 1-23. I have not been able to trace this journal. In her Chicago dissertation Hanlon writes that the Jainas traveled to Tamilnadu, "utilizing the routes along the eastern coast" (p. 49), without providing any literature other than her own ?rama?a article. I am particularly intrigued by what she means with "coast" here, as in the coastal areas of Tamilnadu no traces of Jainism (e.g. caves) are found, at least not before the Christian era or the first few centuries AD. I have to add, though, that I am not an archaeologist or art historian, I base myself here on material provided by Hanlon in her dissertation. With the best wishes, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 11 13:20:22 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 06:20:22 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ??????????? ????????????? ???? ? ??????????????????????????? ??? ??? ??????? Radhika says: "I was in your heart even at the beginning of creation, O Krishna. Only due to our oneness, you are always one without a second." Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrivara at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 13:49:32 2019 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 19:19:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Story of Sanskrit (for Women and Non-Brahmins) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Mrs. Ananya Vajpeyi, I appreciate you for responding to my mail on the other side of story of Sanskrit. Due to hectic schedule for last two months, I could not get time to write back to you. Hope, by now you might have watched the links that I had shared with this list. I am sure that will certainly provide you another picture of the same storyline. Yes, I really get your point. You are right. There exists dichotomy in every society. Bringing change in the mindset of the society takes time. We need to think, argue, discuss, deliberate, write, criticise, teach ...and to wait for ?THAT? change you and me are aspiring for. My urge is to leave the age old ?purusha sukta? stories and work on the current situations. Yes, we cannot deny the experiences of Mrs. Panwar. We should not. But, beyond that there is something else also to see. Generalisation in either side is a ?danger?. It does not lead to any conclusion. As you rightly said it requires ?mutual respect? from both sides. It is unfair to deny the ?experiences? of Panwar ; it is equally unfair to deny ?experiences? of others with similar conditions. As you have said society is full of dichotomies, we academicians can not take sides. Our job is to be objective and guide the society on the right track. One sided creations are objectionable. Any such push will lead to ?Vancouver? event. I believe the organisation of the Vancouver event was not properly conceived due to one sided representation of the panel. Post Vancouver discussions including your column in the Hindu again focused on the reaction part of the event. However, in my opinion it missed the points that need to be understood. Here the point to be noted is : it is easier to discuss the discrimination sitting in AC seminar halls. But, working on the grass root level to bring changes with a positive mindset is not so easy. In our dialogue, we are also missing the real heroes. Aren?t we ? You are a wonderful researcher. It?s expected out of a sincere researcher to do some objective research and also showcase the change that is seen in transformed India along with work that is still needed to be done, that is the transformation of rigid closed mindsets, which is still operating as we experience. On these lines, our effort was to go for some reality check. We did some experiments in UDUPI conference. We placed the same here (event links). I was dismayed for not getting a single response from the people in the list who were earlier discussing a lot about the Vancouver event. Moreover truth just does not lay with one Panwar, but many such Panwars are also not heard. I acknowledge your point on self examination and self criticism. The same ?rule? applies to all. The people without making any effort to gain knowledge will shout and try to create a Dias for their stories. But, who will stand for those, who create histories ? See the links bellow : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpNyBKee_3Q You will find similar efforts in many places. Our humble request is to provide space for them too, so that they can expand themselves in such a way that no more chances for ?panwar-feelings? continue in society. This ?inclusiveness? also deserves all ?inclusive? space. While empathising for the experiences of Dr. Panwar, I dissent with her for her half cooked interpretations of old passages without proper studies. I urge her to stop telling stories. Instead, she may spend her valuable time to study well and challenge the same society. Knowledge brings ?respect?. The strong response from the audience on that day was neither towards her experiences ; nor towards her position. It was all about the management of the event. I personally do not want to take part in such debates. Unfortunately I was a witness of the event where no ?constructive take home message? was delivered. The hunt for an answer prompted us to make these small efforts. Let?s continue to work together to create atmosphere for fruitful dialogue. Warm regard, SV On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 at 5:50 PM, Ananya Vajpeyi via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Shri Varakhedi, > > Thanks for your notice below. I haven't had a chance to watch the videos > yet, but I would like to do so and to respond once I have seen and heard > the women scholars you say spoke in Udupi at your function. > > You and your colleagues at the BVP deserve to be acknowledged for taking > very seriously the discussion on caste and gender in Sanskrit Studies > initiated in Vancouver last summer. It's heartening that you identified and > invited women scholars, from different parts of India and belonging to > diverse social backgrounds, to share their experiences and learning with a > predominantly male field. > > I would urge you to go further and also acknowledge that not all women and > not all people outside of the traditionally sanctioned Brahmin community > have found Sanskrit institutions and discourse to be egalitarian and > inclusive, even in today's context. I do hope you can find it possible, > given the process of self-examination and self-criticism you must have > undertaken, to go back and hear what Dr. Kaushal Panwar was narrating, and > to understand the struggles that lie behind what she and so many others > have gone through in the present and in the past. > > Eventually I would like to see a rapprochement between Dr. Panwar and the > members of the audience who so rudely interrupted and attacked her (and the > rest of us on the panel) at the WSC. I would expect a retraction of the use > of terminology and nomenclature that is deemed offensive to the > self-respect of social groups that have long faced discrimination, > exclusion and violence in the arena of knowledge and education. > > This is the real goal of telling ALL the stories of Sanskrit that are > circulating out there, every one of which has its reality and its > relevance, even though they may be difficult to reconcile sometimes with > one another, given the massive and deep contradictions in our society. > Without mutual respect and the ability to empathise with one another's > different experiences, we cannot live together. > > I look forward to a continuing dialogue. > > With good wishes, > > Ananya Vajpeyi. > > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 23:25:11 +0530 > From: Shrinivasa Varakhedi > To: Veeranarayana Pandurangi > Cc: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] " Story of my Sanskrit" at BVP conference > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear Colleagues, > > This is the direct response to the "Open Forum" that has been staged in > Vancouver last year. Thanks to the organisers for sharing the link of the > event. It is an eye-opening sharing of personal experiences of young women > studying/researching/teaching Sanskrit in Indian Academia. The personal > stories narrated by these women inform us the current trend of Sanskrit > studies in India. Statistics suggests that more than 60% female students > are studying and same no of women are enjoying faculty position in some > states like Maharashtra, Kerala, and WestBengal. Two among these five women > do not belong to so called upper cast (as they narrate). They are speaking > in Sanskrit fluently. They are encouraged to study Veda, Shastras along > with others. No discrimination is experienced. This is the REAL story of > Sanskrit. > > https://youtu.be/jVq7OjL3Oz4 > > Interestingly NO response/feedback/discussion is initiated. Other part of > the continued story is the Mahila Vakyartha Goshthi. The exposition of > Shastrarthas by these young women was astonishing. You will really wonder > to experience the quality of presentation of ideas without any error or > confusion at any point. The clarity and exhibition of confidence are beyond > words. These are ?unheard voices? in real sense. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOuxiYbVpo < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOuxiYbVpo> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMp9ngdvzSc < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMp9ngdvzSc> > > I appreciate the response from scholarly fraternity on these events. > > Warm regards, > Shrinivasa Varakhedi > > -- > > *Ananya Vajpeyi * > *Fellow and Associate Professor* > *Centre for the Study of Developing Societies* > *29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > * > *New Delhi 110054 > * > *e: vajpeyi at csds.in * > *ext: 229* > > *http://www.csds.in/faculty_ananya_vajpeyi.htm > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- warm regards, Shrinivasa Varakhedi Vice-chancellor Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sanskrit University Ramtek, Nagpur, Maharatshtra ------------------------------ (Recipient of Presidents Award) Professor in Shastra and Former Dean (Academics) Karnataka Samskrita University, Bengaluru - 560018 Mobile : +91-94853-01353 Ph Off : +91-7722011353 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrivara at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 16:17:52 2019 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 21:47:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] mea culpa and Dominik's contribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, No words. You are so simple. Indology is in safe hands. I am also with those members who stand for the long lasting life of this list. Warm regards, SV > On 06-Apr-2019, at 1:08 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > > It's really, really sweet of everyone to offer to contribute financially to supporting INDOLOGY. I very much appreciate it. At the present time and for the foreseeable future I can easily carry it, and I honestly would prefer the simplicity of that approach. No tax issues, no accounts, no discussions. It's the lowest-maintenance version of things, and that suits me best. > > However, one day I will leave the committee in younger, stronger hands and at that time I will also hand over all decisions including how to handle the digital rent. > > Warm regards and thanks again to everyone!!! > > Dominik > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 18:59:30 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 12:59:30 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses Message-ID: Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good studies of these topics? I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white distinctions in ayurveda. Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. Any suggestions will be much appreciated. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Thu Apr 11 19:03:14 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 19:03:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <81A05EBE-C2AA-40AA-A512-B1CA3DAFC457@austin.utexas.edu> Dominik: on senses, not a secondary source, but there is a lot of material in the B?had?ra?yaka and the Ch?ndogya about the competition among the senses that could be informative. On Apr 11, 2019, at 1:59 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > wrote: Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good studies of these topics? I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white distinctions in ayurveda. Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. Any suggestions will be much appreciated. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Apr 11 19:03:25 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 19:03:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, Maybe you have a look at the Jaina lesy?s, which are given different colours. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: donderdag 11 april 2019 20:59 Aan: Indology Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good studies of these topics? I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white distinctions in ayurveda. Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. Any suggestions will be much appreciated. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Thu Apr 11 19:15:02 2019 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 19:15:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: <81A05EBE-C2AA-40AA-A512-B1CA3DAFC457@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: On the colors and health sciences, particularly significant would be the Chandogya 8.6, with Sankara?s commentary (though he is not terribly convinced himself and somewhere says something like, ?it is what I think, for more go and see a doctor?). Aleksandar Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 3:03:14 PM To: Dominik Wujastyk Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses Dominik: on senses, not a secondary source, but there is a lot of material in the B?had?ra?yaka and the Ch?ndogya about the competition among the senses that could be informative. On Apr 11, 2019, at 1:59 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > wrote: Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good studies of these topics? I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white distinctions in ayurveda. Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. Any suggestions will be much appreciated. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Thu Apr 11 19:18:15 2019 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 19:18:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190411211918.174c2d4ea64efaceeb614bf4@ff.cuni.cz> Regarding the senses, I would start with this volume: Axel Michaels, Christoph Wulf (eds), Exploring the Senses: South Asian and European Perspectives on Rituals and Performativity, Routledge 2014. I am not aware of any specific study on colours in medicine or alchemy, but a good starting point could be the relevant chapter in Teun Goudriaan's M?y? Divine and Human (MLBD 1978). Best, Lubomir On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 12:59:30 -0600 Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly > stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good > studies of these topics? > > I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health > sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's > 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white > distinctions in ayurveda. > > Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I > will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. > > Any suggestions will be much appreciated. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:41:43 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 01:11:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, Are the color symbolism topic and the senses are topic two different topics? Colors: Trigunas and colors: white, red and black Colors of devatas such as white for Saraswati white for knowledge Colors assigned to almost all categorisations such as grahas etc in Vedic predictive Astrology, and meters in Chandass'aastra etc. The list can go on. On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 12:34 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik, > Maybe you have a look at the Jaina lesy?s, which are given different > colours. > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Dominik > Wujastyk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Verzonden:* donderdag 11 april 2019 20:59 > *Aan:* Indology > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; > concise overview of the senses > > Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly > stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good > studies of these topics? > > I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health > sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's > 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white > distinctions in ayurveda. > > Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I > will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. > > Any suggestions will be much appreciated. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:52:06 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 01:22:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Five senses - five bhutas relationship almost in all S'aastras. Bhoota tanmaatras , indriya tanmaatras. Sookshma S'areera being aggregate of sookshmendriyas Sthoolendriya - Sookshmendriyas distinction for that matter. Power of indriyas as in Gita Separation of self and indriyas in Vedanta Again, the list of issues is huge. On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 1:11 AM Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Dear Prof. Dominik Wujastyk, > > Are the color symbolism topic and the senses are topic two different > topics? > > Colors: > > Trigunas and colors: white, red and black > > Colors of devatas such as white for Saraswati white for knowledge > > Colors assigned to almost all categorisations such as grahas etc in Vedic > predictive Astrology, and meters in Chandass'aastra etc. > > The list can go on. > > > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 12:34 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Dominik, >> Maybe you have a look at the Jaina lesy?s, which are given different >> colours. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website: hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Dominik >> Wujastyk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 11 april 2019 20:59 >> *Aan:* Indology >> *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; >> concise overview of the senses >> >> Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly >> stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good >> studies of these topics? >> >> I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health >> sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's >> 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white >> distinctions in ayurveda. >> >> Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I >> will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. >> >> Any suggestions will be much appreciated. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> , >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> , >> University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> sas.ualberta.ca >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Karen_O'Brien-Kop at soas.ac.uk Thu Apr 11 21:14:20 2019 From: Karen_O'Brien-Kop at soas.ac.uk (Karen O'Brien-Kop) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 22:14:20 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] SOAS Yoga Studies Summer School Message-ID: Dear List Members For those who may be interested, please see below details of the SOAS Yoga Studies Summer School. *SOAS Yoga Studies Summer School (at the SOAS Centre of Yoga Studies)* June 17-July 05, 2019 This summer school provides an introduction to yoga studies with classes on key aspects of yoga history, philosophy, and contemporary practice. The course is structured into sections: textual history, philosophy, ethnography and bodily practice, Sanskrit language, and critical thought. The history section will constitute the primary focus of study and will draw on the expertise of the SOAS Ha?ha Yoga Project team to survey the history of hatha yoga through Sanskrit texts. The philosophy classes will introduce students to key concepts in classical yoga and to contextual readings of the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*. In the ethnography class, students will reflect on ways to analyse experience and movement in postural yoga in relation to historical texts. The course also provides an introduction to key terms in the Sanskrit language for yoga studies and to scholarship on critical issues in contemporary yoga. The summer school will be taught by the research team of the Ha?ha Yoga Project (Drs James Mallinson, Mark Singleton, Daniela Bevilacqua, and Jason Birch) and other specialist scholars from SOAS and beyond. The full teaching schedule and booking details are on our website: https://www.soas.ac.uk/yoga-studies/yoga-summer-school/ Best wishes Karen O'Brien *Senior Teaching Fellow* Department of Religions and Philosophies SOAS University of London -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 21:28:56 2019 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 19 17:28:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <368CF260-37D5-4047-BC22-18310964CD41@gmail.com> Dear Dominik, I suppose there are color symbol systems in various systems, and in some alchemical traditions as well, but more typically one finds mentions of color in association with properties of materials, how changes in color can be brought about and used as indications of changes in underlying materials, and so on. See, for example: http://www.ccras.nic.in/sites/default/files/viewpdf/jimh/BIIHM_1996/11%20to%2038.pdf In medicine, likewise, specific symptomatic colors, for instance, of the tongue, are used as diagnostic tools, but an overall symbology of colors is not something I?ve seen (except in New Agey treatments). Islamic medicine considers green the color of healing (so the folks who stick rods and swords through parts of their bodies with little or no blood are said to afterwards wrap that part in green scarves or cloths to facilitate healing with little or no scarring), but I don?t know offhand of a non-muslim counterpart. As for readings on the senses, sometimes it seems Indian Buddhists hardly talk about anything else. Anything on the 6 ?yatanas or 18 dh?tus would provide a basic account of the senses. There is a substantial section of the Sa?yutta Nik?ya called the Sa??yatana-vagga, dealing in a variety of ways with the six senses (mind is an indriya in Buddhism). That includes the following remarkable short sutta which answers the question: What is everything (sabba, Skt: sarva)? Sa?yutta nik?ya 35 Sabba Sutta SN 35.23 SN iv 15 connected discourses on the six sense bases 23. The All At Savatthi. ?Bhikkhus, I will teach you the all. Listen to that?. ?And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. ?If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: ?Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all??that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.? (Bhikkhu Bodhi?s translation) The Pali: 3. sabbavagga 23. Sabbasutta S?vatthinid?na?. ?Sabba? vo, bhikkhave, desess?mi. Ta? su??tha. Ki?ca, bhikkhave, sabba?? Cakkhu?ceva r?p? ca, sota?ca sadd? ca, gh?na?ca gandh? ca, jivh? ca ras? ca, k?yo ca pho??habb? ca, mano ca dhamm? ca?ida? vuccati, bhikkhave, sabba?. Yo, bhikkhave, eva? vadeyya: ?ahameta? sabba? paccakkh?ya a??a? sabba? pa???pess?m??ti, tassa v?c?vatthukamevassa; pu??ho ca na samp?yeyya, uttari?ca vigh?ta? ?pajjeyya. Ta? kissa hetu? Yath? ta?, bhikkhave, avisayasmin?ti. best, Dan > On Apr 11, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good studies of these topics? > > I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white distinctions in ayurveda. > > Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. > > Any suggestions will be much appreciated. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, > Department of History and Classics , > University of Alberta, Canada. > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 10:02:54 2019 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 13:02:54 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources In-Reply-To: <20190411211918.174c2d4ea64efaceeb614bf4@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <234F5C2F-0ED4-4F5F-BB22-299BFAB13F7C@gmail.com> - Beck, Brenda E. F., 1969. Colour and heat in South Indian ritual. Man NS 4: 566-570. - Bedekar, V. M., 1968. The doctrine of the colours of souls in the Mah?bh?rata*: Its characteristics and implications. ABORI 48-49: 329- - Damais, Louis-Charles, 1969. A propos des couleurs symboliques des points cardinaux (?tudes javanaises, III). Bulletin d'?cole Franc?aise d'Extr?me-Orient 56: 75-118. - Filliozat, Jean, 1957. Classement des couleurs et des lumi?res en sanskrit. Pp. 303-308 in: Ignace Meyerson (ed.), Probl?mes de la couleur. (Biblioth?que g?n?ral de l'?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, IVe s?ction.) Paris: S.E.V.P.E.N. Reprinted, pp. 185-190 in: Filliozat, Jean, 1974. Laghu-prabandh??: Choix d'articles d'indologie. Leiden: E.J. Brill. - Gr?nbold, G?nter, 1978. Die Farbensymbolik in der buddhistischen Ikonographie. Asiatische Studien / ?tudes Asiatiques 32: 117-122. - Hopkins, Edward W., 1883. Words for color in the Rig Veda. American Journal of Philology 4 (2): 166-191. - Janert, Klaus Ludwig, and P. Rajagopal Subramanian, 1973. Colours in Early Tamil: A study based on Cilappadikaram. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 2 (1): 141-150. - Jain, Narendra Kumar, 1978. Indian colour* symbolism. Berlin. (Ph. D. thesis, Technical university of Berlin, 1977.) - Kintaert, Thomas, 2005. The use of primary colours in the N??ya??stra. Pp. 245-273 in: S. Das & E. F?rlinger (eds.?), SAmarasya: Studies in Indian arts, philosophy and interreligious dialogue in honour of Bettina B?umer. New Delhi: D. K. Printworld. - Parpola, Asko, 2015. The Roots of Hinduism: The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization. New York: Oxford University Press. Chapter 24: Retrospect and Prospect, pp. 314-317 (?speculations on the social structure of the Indus Civilization and the mode of thinking among its priestly administrators?, with a starting point in the five visible planets and their colours.) - Sahlins, M, 1976. Colors and cultures. Semiotica 16: 1-22. - Sandahl, Stella, 1977. Le G?tagovinda: Tradition et innovation dans le k?vya. Stockholm. Chapter on ?Les couleurs des sentiments?, pp. 144-154. - Slavik, Jan, 1994. Dance of colours: Basic patterns of colour symbolism in Mah?y?na Buddhism. (Etnologiska studier, 41.) G?teborg: Etnografiska Museet i G?teborg. vii, 249 pp. Note also that at the shift of October and November, 2009, the theme ?Yugas and colours? was discussed in the Indology-list. Best wishes, Asko Parpola -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 12:47:26 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 18:17:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The power of Google lense (Tesseract) Message-ID: Dear all The Google lense by Google works brilliant in Devanagari OCR (and other scripts like Kannada etc) But if the printed matter is in bold weight then we get almost correct results. The great thing is it also works with multiple texts like Devanagari plus Kannada or Devanagari plus Roman etc. Bit it doesn't give accurate results if it is printed in light weight fonts. Here is a sample text. Which is unedited after the google recognition and pasted here, and this is printed in Bold face. ??? ??? ????????? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ?????????? ? ?????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ????????????? ? ?? ????????????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ?? ????????????????????????????? ???????? ????? ? ? ? ????????????? ??????? ????????????? ???????: ?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????????? ?????????? ? ? ? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ????????????????????? ? ???????????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ? ? ? ????? ???????? ???????????? ??????????? l ?????????: ???????????? ?????????? ? ??????? ? ? ? ????????? ???????????? ???????????? ? ? ??????????? ????????? ?? ???????? ???????????? ? ? ? ????????? ????????? ? ?????????????????? ? ???????????????? ?????????? ??????? ?????? ? ? ? ?????? ????????? ????? ????????????????? ?? ???????????????? ???????? ???????? ? ? ? ?????? ???????????? ???????? ????????? ? ????????????? ????????????????????????? ????????? ? ?? ?????????????????? ?????? ???????? ??? ? ??????????? ????? ???????? ?????????????? ??? ? ?? ? Here is Sample of multiple texts. With light weight hence result is less accurate. A debt, other than the agent, which is cause of an action takes T5qAT. This is an exemption to ?????? in the sense of ????. ??????????? ?????? ??? ????? ? ???? ??? ??????? ??: ???? ??????, somebody owes a hundred rupees, but he does not repay it, he is therefore confined for this amount. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 12 13:20:13 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 06:20:13 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ? ?????? ???? ?????? ? ?????? ??????? ???? ? ?????????????????????????? ??? ??????? Radhika is not without Krishna and Krishna is not without Radhika. Because they are infused into each other, they are inseparable and have become one. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Fri Apr 12 17:04:47 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 19:04:47 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indication of Case Message-ID: Dear all. Today I stumbled upon a remark that caught my attention. Hermann Brockhaus mentions that in good, carefully written Indian manuscripts the case relation between members of a compound is often written above the words with a numeral corresponding to the case in the usual Sanskrit system (pratham? vibhakti?, etc.). I have not seen this before, but I have not read all that many manuscripts. Does this ring a bell for anyone? The original text can be found here . It is also pasted below but will perhaps not come through. The reference is: p. 18, Ueber den Druck Sanskritischer Werke mit lateinischen Buchstaben von Hermann Brockhaus, Leibzig, 1841. Many Thanks, Victor [image: image.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in Fri Apr 12 18:25:40 2019 From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 23:55:40 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the indriyas, see Karin Preisendanz's: ?On a?tmendriyamanorthasannikars?a and the Nya?ya-Vais?es?ika Theory of Vision.? Berliner Indologische Studien 4/5 (1989), pp. 141-213 and (use the index) Studien zu Nya?yasu?tra III.1 mit dem Nya?yatattva?loka Va?caspati Mis?ras II. Alt- und Neu- Indische Studien 46,1-2. Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag 1994. -- Alex Watson Professor of Indian Philosophy Head of Philosophy Department Ashoka University *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.darumadera at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 20:13:45 2019 From: john.darumadera at gmail.com (John Huntington) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 16:13:45 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Buddhist tantric color symbolism is covered extensively (passim) in Dina Bangdel's? and my Circle of Bliss: Buddhist Meditational Art, 2003. Although long out of print, it is available under both my listing and Dina's listings on Academia.edu. John On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:00 PM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly > stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good > studies of these topics? > > I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health > sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's > 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white > distinctions in ayurveda. > > Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I > will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. > > Any suggestions will be much appreciated. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 22:45:38 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 16:45:38 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm very grateful to everyone who has responded on the colour and senses questions, and you've sent me a lot of materials that I can use. To clarify my query about colours, I'm looking for secondary sources, articles, chapters or books that synthesize and theorize these topics. There are many Sanskrit primary sources that mention colours in all sorts of interesting ways. But hasn't someone at least done a PhD that brings this together somehow and draws some broad conclusions? Where is our indological Huizinga-equivalent with a *Homo Colorans*? Even just a wee article? On the senses, I've got James McHugh's wonderful work on smell (including *Sandalwood and Carrion* and - just what the students need - his Brill Encyc. article). Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 12:59, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Students are asking me for readings for their essays, and I'm slightly > stumped for good suggestions on these two. Can anyone point to some good > studies of these topics? > > I am particularly interested in colour readings in relation to the health > sciences and alchemy, but anything will do! I know about Martha Selby's > 2005 "Narratives of Conception" article and its remarks on red/white > distinctions in ayurveda. > > Regarding the senses, I haven't yet checked the Brill encyclopedia, and I > will. Probably there's something in Dasgupta, Hist. Indi. Philosophy. > > Any suggestions will be much appreciated. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 23:08:13 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 17:08:13 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aha! - Frazier, Jessica, ?Colors?, in: *Brill?s Encyclopedia of Hinduism Online*, Edited by: Knut A. Jacobsen, Helene Basu, Angelika Malinar, Vasudha Narayanan. Consulted online on 12 April 2019 < http://dx.doi.org/10.1163/2212-5019_beh_COM_9000000172> First published online: 2018 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 02:16:44 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 20:16:44 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources In-Reply-To: <234F5C2F-0ED4-4F5F-BB22-299BFAB13F7C@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is a wonderful help, Asko. Thank you so much! Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 02:20:12 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 20:20:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indication of Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've seen this in students' manuscripts, that are identifiable as such because of the large, learner's Devanagari. But my experience does not support Brockhaus's view that this is "often" done. It's very rare. Maybe Brockhaus was looking at a corpus of MSS by a particular scribe or scribal group, or a particular topic (chandas?) in which this was more common practice? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 11:05, victor davella via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all. > > Today I stumbled upon a remark that caught my attention. Hermann Brockhaus > mentions that in good, carefully written Indian manuscripts the case > relation between members of a compound is often written above the words > with a numeral corresponding to the case in the usual Sanskrit system > (pratham? vibhakti?, etc.). I have not seen this before, but I have not > read all that many manuscripts. Does this ring a bell for anyone? The > original text can be found here > . It > is also pasted below but will perhaps not come through. The reference is: > p. 18, Ueber den Druck Sanskritischer Werke mit lateinischen Buchstaben von > Hermann Brockhaus, Leibzig, 1841. > > Many Thanks, > > Victor > > [image: image.png] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 02:23:18 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 20:23:18 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources; concise overview of the senses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aaaah, I *knew* there was an article by Karin, but my brain wouldn't produce it. Thank you! Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 02:26:29 2019 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 11:26:29 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Seminar on Indology in Bangalore In-Reply-To: <3b37f4b2-11aa-4451-82b9-78689bf9f4f8@Spark> Message-ID: Dear all, A colleague who is not a member of the list asked me to circulate the announcement below. best, Andrey Namaste, Dear Indologists The School of Performing Arts (SOPA), REVA University has organised a conference? on 'Dance and Spirituality'?on 29th of April 2019?and another conference on Indology on 29th of May 2019 in Bangalore. If any of your scholarly friends, researchers who happen to be in India and around at this time and if they are?interested in presenting a paper please let us know. I request you to circulate the information in your circle. The University can provide stay at its guest house, food and local traveling expenses for two days. For more information on SOPA one can visit REVA website. One can reach me by mail or contact me on 94822 14242. Thanks?and regards Dr.Vidya Shimladka Professor and Director SOPA, REVA University Bengaluru vidyakumaris at reva.edu.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 02:39:58 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 19 20:39:58 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Job: Wellcome Collection Manuscript Collections Analyst for non-European language (and related scripts) In-Reply-To: <5407F90B-996F-46E7-90EA-4502E7339450@wellcome.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is an exciting two-year opportunity for the right person. The Wellcome Library has manuscripts and printed books in something like 42 Asian languages. The largest collections are the Sanskrit, Hindi, Arabic and Persian, almost all puchased in South Asia. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Angela McShane Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 07:13 Subject: Job: Wellcome Collection Manuscript Collections Analyst for non-European language (and related scripts) Dear Dominik, Hello! I hope you are well and thriving! We are finally getting our act together to try and make all our non-European collections more accessible and better known. I wanted to bring your attention to this new role we are advertising. Do you think you could circulate it around your networks? It would be an ideal post-doc opportunity: ? https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/TGnewUI/Search/home/HomeWithPreLoad?PageType=JobDetails&partnerid=30160&siteid=5284&jobid=233127#jobDetails=233127_5284 ? ? Essential Skills: ? High level of knowledge and experience of using TEI for manuscript description ? Excellent skills in manuscript codicology and bibliographical research ? Language and palaeographical skills in at least one non-European language (and related scripts) represented in the Wellcome manuscript collections e.g. Arabic, Sanskrit, Chinese, Persian, Ottoman Turkish, Hindi All best, Angela *Dr Angela McShane | Head of Research Development* Wellcome Collection, 183 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, UK T: +44 (0)20 7611 8501 E: *a.mcshane at wellcome.ac.uk * *wellcomecollection.org* * Wellcome's free museum and library for the incurably curious* *________________________________________ Now showing:* Global clinic Until 24 April 2019 Smoke and Mirrors: The Psychology of Magic 11 April 2019 - 5 September 2019 *Permanent exhibitions: **Medicine Man * | Reading Room *Closing 24 April:* Medicine Now *________________________________________* * Wellcome exists to improve health by helping great ideas to thrive. We support researchers, we take on big health challenges, we campaign for better science, and we help everyone get involved with science and health research. We are a politically and financially independent foundation.* The Wellcome Trust is a charity registered in England and Wales, no. 210183. Its sole trustee is The Wellcome Trust Limited, a company registered in England and Wales, no. 2711000 (whose registered office is at 215 Euston Road, London NW1 2BE, UK) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Apr 13 06:13:48 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 01:13:48 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How a farmer has been protecting the prehistoric Indus carvings of Domkhar Message-ID: <92997524-075B-4413-A37E-A70C8CABD611@aol.com> This story may be of interest to some on the list. https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-petrogylphs-of-domkhar/article26745546.ece Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vajpeyi at csds.in Sat Apr 13 08:09:05 2019 From: vajpeyi at csds.in (Ananya Vajpeyi) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 11:09:05 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi Message-ID: Dear Shri Varakhedi, I received your long note addressed to me, but since so did the entire Indology List it appears, I am responding via the list. No, unfortunately I haven't had time to watch the proceedings in Udupi. But I really don't know what you expect from me. Engagement? Respect? Agreement? Should I abandon my convictions in the face of this barrage of mansplaining? It would be so helpful if you might begin by figuring out an appropriate mode of address for say Kaushal Panwar or me, which either uses our academic titles ("Dr."+ Surname), or a conventional mode of professional address ("Professor" + Surname), or our respective first names, in a friendly and non-offensive way. Further, it would encourage a genuine dialogue if you and your colleagues in forums like the BVP were not continually attacking Kaushal Panwar, Audrey Truschke, Sheldon Pollock, and so many others I think of as my friends, colleagues, teachers and fellow-students of Sanskrit, on and off list, in private and in public, in print and in speech. Your hostilities are as relentless as they are senseless. You perceive threats to your religion, caste, gender and beliefs where these are in no way factors driving any of us in our thinking, life or scholarship. You at once seek our attention and make us the targets of such tremendous antagonism that after a point it is simply not possible to either hear what you have to say or debate with you in any sensible manner. We have fundamental disagreements, let us not equivocate. The way we see texts, language, history, society, politics, truth, transcendence, institutions, practices; the way we make sense of what we read and what we experience, these are often incommensurable or untranslatable. Indology is not an Indian forum and I have no desire to make it into a platform to perform my nationalism or yours. It is not a Hindu forum and I refuse to position Sanskrit texts within a "Hindu" framework in any case, with anyone, not just you. I intend to continue reading whatever texts interest me, with the best philological, hermeneutic and exegetical tools and skills at my disposal, and to interpret them in ways that I think don't just make sense of the texts themselves but also make sense within a context of reading, research, pedagogy, historiography and a wider public conversation with cultural and political dimensions. You can shout at me when I'm on stage or abuse me on your groups and lists; you can write me polite but essentially tone-deaf letters; you can rebut my arguments with whatever capacities you can muster, it's all fine, it's part of the game. Personally I don't like the social media harassment and trolling, but let us say, as in the old proverb, the dogs bark, the caravan moves on, something like this. However I fear you have missed the point, of the Caste and Gender forum at the WSC last summer; of my article in the Hindu; of all the ferment in academia east and west around gender equality, caste equality, equality, period. Either you're committed to equality, as the plinth of your politics and your scholarship, or you're not. That's where I'm coming from and that's the path on which I plan to continue. I'm not here to convince people that they should accept inequality as a given and learn to live with it. I don't see that as what I signed up to do when I chose the life of the mind. Your complaints regarding the Vancouver event should please be directed to the organisers, hosts and sponsors, and not at the invited speakers, who were simply there to talk about what they were invited to talk about. Sincerely, Ananya Vajpeyi. -- *Ananya Vajpeyi * *Fellow and Associate Professor* *Centre for the Study of Developing Societies* *29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines* *New Delhi 110054* *e: vajpeyi at csds.in * *ext: 229* *http://www.csds.in/faculty_ananya_vajpeyi.htm * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Sat Apr 13 09:02:29 2019 From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 09:02:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <83A6DE91-579D-4779-BFD4-FB770C2B3550@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Dear Dominik, perhaps the following volume might also be interesting for the topic: A. Michaels & Chr. Wulf (eds.), Exploring the Senses, London: Routledge, 2017 (for a table of content see: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9781317342113. Best, Axel Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von "indology at list.indology.info" Antworten an: Dominik Wujastyk Datum: Samstag, 13. April 2019 um 04:17 An: Asko Parpola Cc: Dominik Wujastyk , "indology at list.indology.info" Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources This is a wonderful help, Asko. Thank you so much! Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Sat Apr 13 09:15:08 2019 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 11:15:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pada-split Atharvaveda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list members, I'm looking for a pada-split machine-readable version of the Shaunakiya recension of the AV. Is anybody aware of such a resource, and would be ready to share it? Thanks, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf/IVS Z?rich From samuel.wright at ahduni.edu.in Sat Apr 13 11:29:51 2019 From: samuel.wright at ahduni.edu.in (Samuel Wright) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 16:59:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Manuscript Catalogues PDF (Ceylon) Message-ID: Dear List, Does anyone have either of these catalogues in PDF form? I am not able to find a copy online and my library does not have them. *Catalogue of Pali, Sinhalese, & Sanskrit manuscripts in the Ceylon Government Oriental Library*. Ceylon Government Oriental Library. Columbo: 1876. *A catalogue of Pali, Sinhalese, and Sanskrit manuscripts in the temple libraries of Ceylon*. Compiled by Louis de Zoysa. Columbo: 1885. Many thanks, Sam Samuel Wright Assistant Professor Division of Humanities and Languages Ahmedabad University -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 13 13:54:52 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 06:54:52 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????????????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ? ???????????????????????????? ??????? If Radhika and Krishna have one heart, how could there be duality? Because they are infused into each other, they are both one without a second. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Sat Apr 13 15:52:03 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 15:52:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A humble query m Message-ID: <20190413155203.11841.qmail@f4mail-235-219.rediffmail.com> Of late ,I am not getting replies to my queries placed at the forum.Am I missing out on any technical updates. I would be obliged if I may kindly be apprised on this.    Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nakeerthi at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:14:58 2019 From: nakeerthi at gmail.com (naresh keerthi) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 19:14:58 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Colour symbolism in pre-modern Indic sources Message-ID: Dear Dominik, I list below some sources for the study of colour semantics in premodern India. Besides these, there are sections in the ko?a-s as well as texts of ala?k?ra that deal with the polysemy of colour terms. I have written about the semantics of several individual colour terms in (fairly exasperating) detail in my PhD thesis, which is (as yet) *as?rya?pa?y?*. Apologies for the inconsistent format of citation. May I add, I benefited much from the references in footnote 72 in the volume ?Studies on Indian Medical History? that you and the late Jan Meulenbeld edited, and your students may find them helpful as well. Warm regards, Naresh Keerthi *On olfaction* Hara, Minoru. "A Note on Sanskrit Gandha." *Studia Orientalia Electronica* 108 (2010): 65-86. McHugh, James. *Sandalwood and carrion: Smell in Indian religion and culture*. Oxford University Press, 2012. *Colour semiotics in Tamil* Beck, Brenda EF. "Colour and heat in South Indian ritual." *Man* (1969): 553-572. Janert, Klaus L., and P. Rajagopal Subramanian. "Colours in Early Tamil, a Study Based on Cilappatikaram." *International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics* 2 (1973): 141-150. Suppirama?ia?. Ca.V?,. and N? Ka?ik?calam. 1983. Ilakkiyattil ni?am . Taramani, Chennai *Colour semiotics in Sanskrit sources * Bedekar, V. M., 1968. ?The Doctrine of the Colours of Souls in the Mah?bh?rata : Its Characteristics and Implications?. Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Vol. 48/49, Golden Jubilee Volume 1917-1967 (1968). 329-338. Bhattacharya. Ashok.K., On the identification of the colour called ?y*?ma. *Journal of Oriental Institute. Baroda. [I don?t have the details of which issue from my photocopy, but it can be found from the JOI index available online.] Elizarenkova, T., 1994. Notes on Names of Colours in the ?gveda. *Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute*, *54*, pp.81-86. Filliozat, J., 1957. Classement des couleurs et des lumi?res en Sanskrit. *Probl?mes de la couleur*, pp.303-311. Helmdach, Mathias. 1980. Farbbezeichnungen und Farbverst?ndnis im alten Indien. Unpublished Dissertation. University M?nchen. Hopkins, E.W., 1883. Words for color in the Rig Veda.*The American Journal of Philology*,*4*(2), pp.166-191. Jha, S., 2016. From Sacred to Commodity and Beyond: Colour and Values in India. *Journal of Human Values*, *22*(1), pp.1-13. Jha, S., 2014. Challenges in the history of colours: The case of saffron. *The Indian Economic & Social History Review*, *51*(2), pp.199-229. Nardi, I., 2007. *The Theory of Citrasutras in Indian Painting: A Critical Re-evaluation of Their Uses and Interpretations*. Routledge. Okita, K., 2018. 4 Salvation through Colorful Emotions: Aesthetics, Colorimetry, and Theology in Early Modern South Asia. In *Historicizing Emotions: Practices and Objects in India, China, and Japan* (pp. 100-112). BRILL. Samtani, N.H., 1993. "A study of aspects of raga." in Ram Karan Sarma (ed.) *Researches in Indian and Buddhist Philosophy: Essays in Honour of Professor Alex Wayman *61-67. Sudyka, Lydia., 2006. Passions of the Indigo colour. In Jaroslav Vacek (ed.) Pandanus 06: Nature in Literature and Ritual. Prague: Pandanus. 37-52. Wiley. Kristi. L., 2000. Colors of the Soul: By-Products of Activity or Passions?. Philosophy East and West, Vol. 50, No. 3. 348-366. *History, theory and method of colour semantics* Biggam, Carole Patricia. 2012. The semantics of colour: A historical approach. Cambridge University Press. MacLaury, R.E., 1992. From brightness to hue: An explanatory model of color-category evolution.Current Anthropology,33(2), pp.137-186. Philip, G., 2011. Colouring meaning: Collocation and connotation in figurative language. John Benjamins Publishing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:20:04 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 10:20:04 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Job: Wellcome Collection Manuscript Collections Analyst for non-European language (and related scripts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another contact person for enquiries about this job is Alexandra Eveleigh < A.Eveleigh at wellcome.ac.uk>. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 13 16:37:28 2019 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 16:37:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indication of Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Victor, Having perused a lot of annotated manuscripts -- and still doing it -- I've seen the use of numerals in manuscripts for this type of purpose and also other purposes more often than one might presuppose. As Dominik wrote, usually they are clearly student's manuscripts, but not always, at least according to my faulty judgement. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: Dominik Wujastyk Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2019 3:20 AM To: victor davella Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Indication of Case I've seen this in students' manuscripts, that are identifiable as such because of the large, learner's Devanagari. But my experience does not support Brockhaus's view that this is "often" done. It's very rare. Maybe Brockhaus was looking at a corpus of MSS by a particular scribe or scribal group, or a particular topic (chandas?) in which this was more common practice? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 11:05, victor davella via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear all. Today I stumbled upon a remark that caught my attention. Hermann Brockhaus mentions that in good, carefully written Indian manuscripts the case relation between members of a compound is often written above the words with a numeral corresponding to the case in the usual Sanskrit system (pratham? vibhakti?, etc.). I have not seen this before, but I have not read all that many manuscripts. Does this ring a bell for anyone? The original text can be found here. It is also pasted below but will perhaps not come through. The reference is: p. 18, Ueber den Druck Sanskritischer Werke mit lateinischen Buchstaben von Hermann Brockhaus, Leibzig, 1841. Many Thanks, Victor [image.png] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 17:54:53 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 19 19:54:53 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_title_mah=C4=81prabhu?= Message-ID: <0b61faf5-a1c9-31e3-6ba6-4214c44ab6fb@gmail.com> I am not sure if there is a good answer to this question, but I would be interested to hear what people think: what with Caitanya Mah?prabhu of Bengal, Jagann?tha Mah?prabhu (the deity) of Orissa, and, in more recent times, Swargadwari Mahaprabhu of Nepal (of whom I confess I had never heard before a web search turned him up), I wonder if mah?prabhu is a title most prominently found in the (north)-eastern parts of South Asia, at least before the 20th century? I know there is a 16th-century Hariva??a Mah?prabhu from the Mathura area, founder of the R?dh?vallabha-samprad?ya, but I suspect the use of the epithet in his case may have been modelled on that of Caitanya. Thanks in advance for any thoughts, Martin Gansten From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 03:26:09 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 08:56:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not quite on Tantra, The author shared his academia.edu paper on BVP list: https://www.academia.edu/35405548/Concept_of_Probability_in_Sanskrit_Texts_on_Classical_Music On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:41 PM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Paolo, > > > Although it is not quite on tantra, there is a highly interesting article > in modern Sanskrit on the relationship between Sanskrit analysis of poetic > metre and Pascal's triangle. I do not have the full reference available in > my present location, but it may be found in the introduction to the late > Michael Hahn's edition of the ChandoratnAkara, which may be available on > his academia page, if that is still accessible. > > > In Buddhist tantra, quite a lot has been written on the mathematics of the > KAlacakratantra. The late Edward Henning's webpage kalacakra.org has some > useful material on this, as does Henning's book, KAlacakra and the Tibetan > Calendar. > > > There is also quite a lot on this in German, by Dieter Schuh, but > exclusively concerned with the Tibetan legacy of the Indian sources and not > with the Indian materials themselves. > > > best, > > Matthew > > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Paolo > Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2019 4:47:07 AM > *To:* Indology > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Sciences and Tantra > > Dear indologists, > > Can anyone points me out any study on Tantra in connection to sciences, > mathematics and more specifically geometry? > > With the best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati * > > > > * PhD in Asian and African Studies (South Asia Section) Italian Institute > of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome * > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > > > Mail > priva di virus. www.avast.com > > <#m_850474491570882420_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 04:02:26 2019 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 06:02:26 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_title_mah=C4=81prabhu?= In-Reply-To: <0b61faf5-a1c9-31e3-6ba6-4214c44ab6fb@gmail.com> Message-ID: An off-list reply made me realize I wasn't as clear in formulating my question as I should have been: I am primarily interested in the epithet mah?prabhu used as a title for historical persons (rulers and/or holy men), or possibly local/regional deities (such as Jagann?tha). The late medieval to early modern period would be particularly relevant. Best wishes, Martin Den 2019-04-13 kl. 19:54, skrev Martin Gansten: > I am not sure if there is a good answer to this question, but I would > be interested to hear what people think: what with Caitanya Mah?prabhu > of Bengal, Jagann?tha Mah?prabhu (the deity) of Orissa, and, in more > recent times, Swargadwari Mahaprabhu of Nepal (of whom I confess I had > never heard before a web search turned him up), I wonder if mah?prabhu > is a title most prominently found in the (north)-eastern parts of > South Asia, at least before the 20th century? I know there is a > 16th-century Hariva??a Mah?prabhu from the Mathura area, founder of > the R?dh?vallabha-samprad?ya, but I suspect the use of the epithet in > his case may have been modelled on that of Caitanya. > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts, > Martin Gansten > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrivara at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 06:46:45 2019 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 12:16:45 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: An Important announcement from BORI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For info to the list : ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Secretary Bori India Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 11:25 AM Subject: Fwd: An Important announcement from BORI To: Coordinator at BORI *Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune (India)* *Academic Development Programme Supported by Infosys Foundation* *Announcement* Various academic programmes have been instituted at the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (BORI), thanks to the generous funding received from the Infosys Foundation for specialized research in thrust areas such as 1. Indological Studies 2. Buddhist Studies 3. The study of India?s cultural relations with other Asian countries in the ancient and early medieval period, and 4. The comparative study of religions. An announcement of various positions has been made on the website of the BORI. The same is being made on national and international internet platforms and is being sent to scholars in India and abroad. Curriculum Vitae along with detailed project proposals shall be invited from reputed scholars. Interested scholars are requested to send a letter of interest to the Honorary Secretary of the BORI expressing his / her desire to conduct research at the BORI, together with a current CV and detailed research project. Names of eligible scholars may also be suggested by others with their CVs and detailed research projects. The format of the research project proposal is also available on BORI?s website. The Search-cum-Selection Committee is authorised to nominate a scholar and possesses the right to accept or reject any name and/or research project. All other details regarding remuneration, logistics, etc. are being uploaded on the website of BORI and have also been attached herewith. For more information and queries, please contact: -- Honorary Secretary Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 812, Shivaji Nagar, Chiplunkar Road, Near ILS Law College, Pune 411004 (India) Phone: +91-20-25656932 -- warm regards, Shrinivasa Varakhedi Vice-chancellor Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sanskrit University Ramtek, Nagpur, Maharatshtra ------------------------------ (Recipient of Presidents Award) Professor in Shastra and Former Dean (Academics) Karnataka Samskrita University, Bengaluru - 560018 Mobile : +91-94853-01353 Ph Off : +91-7722011353 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Sun Apr 14 08:37:03 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 10:37:03 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indication of Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank all for your responses. I'll keep an eye out for more examples! All the Best, Victor On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 4:20 AM Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I've seen this in students' manuscripts, that are identifiable as such > because of the large, learner's Devanagari. But my experience does not > support Brockhaus's view that this is "often" done. It's very rare. Maybe > Brockhaus was looking at a corpus of MSS by a particular scribe or scribal > group, or a particular topic (chandas?) in which this was more common > practice? > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 11:05, victor davella via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all. >> >> Today I stumbled upon a remark that caught my attention. Hermann >> Brockhaus mentions that in good, carefully written Indian manuscripts the >> case relation between members of a compound is often written above the >> words with a numeral corresponding to the case in the usual Sanskrit system >> (pratham? vibhakti?, etc.). I have not seen this before, but I have not >> read all that many manuscripts. Does this ring a bell for anyone? The >> original text can be found here >> . It >> is also pasted below but will perhaps not come through. The reference is: >> p. 18, Ueber den Druck Sanskritischer Werke mit lateinischen Buchstaben von >> Hermann Brockhaus, Leibzig, 1841. >> >> Many Thanks, >> >> Victor >> >> [image: image.png] >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Sun Apr 14 09:25:42 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 09:25:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. Message-ID: <20190414092542.24159.qmail@f4mail-235-235.rediffmail.com> Of the Indo-Aryan language category, prevalent  in  India, it has been known that the combination -Punjabi-Hindi-Bihari-Rajasthani-Pahari form a group of Macrolanguages.I was interested to know about similar instances prevalent in European languages,if at all, there exists any such  categorisation.       Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Sun Apr 14 09:55:27 2019 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 11:55:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indication of Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I add a special thanks to Eric Gurevitch who pointed me to Murari Lal Nagar's edition of the Vikram??kadevacarita, where this phenomenon, inter alia, is described on pp. 1f. of the prast?van?. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284210/page/n9 All the Best, Victor On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 10:37 AM victor davella wrote: > Thank all for your responses. I'll keep an eye out for more examples! > > All the Best, > Victor > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 4:20 AM Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> I've seen this in students' manuscripts, that are identifiable as such >> because of the large, learner's Devanagari. But my experience does not >> support Brockhaus's view that this is "often" done. It's very rare. Maybe >> Brockhaus was looking at a corpus of MSS by a particular scribe or scribal >> group, or a particular topic (chandas?) in which this was more common >> practice? >> >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> , >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> , >> University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> sas.ualberta.ca >> >> >> >> On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 11:05, victor davella via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear all. >>> >>> Today I stumbled upon a remark that caught my attention. Hermann >>> Brockhaus mentions that in good, carefully written Indian manuscripts the >>> case relation between members of a compound is often written above the >>> words with a numeral corresponding to the case in the usual Sanskrit system >>> (pratham? vibhakti?, etc.). I have not seen this before, but I have not >>> read all that many manuscripts. Does this ring a bell for anyone? The >>> original text can be found here >>> . It >>> is also pasted below but will perhaps not come through. The reference is: >>> p. 18, Ueber den Druck Sanskritischer Werke mit lateinischen Buchstaben von >>> Hermann Brockhaus, Leibzig, 1841. >>> >>> Many Thanks, >>> >>> Victor >>> >>> [image: image.png] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Apr 14 10:52:55 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 10:52:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. In-Reply-To: <20190414092542.24159.qmail@f4mail-235-235.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: For instance, the Romance and Slavonic languages. Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens alakendu das via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: zondag 14 april 2019 11:25 Aan: indology Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. Of the Indo-Aryan language category, prevalent in India, it has been known that the combination -Punjabi-Hindi-Bihari-Rajasthani-Pahari form a group of Macrolanguages.I was interested to know about similar instances prevalent in European languages,if at all, there exists any such categorisation. Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Apr 14 13:32:18 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 06:32:18 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????? ??????????????: ????????????: ? ?????? ???????????? ?????????????? ??????? Sharing a common heart and bound with unbreakable bonds of love, Radhika and Krishna shine like the Moon and the star of Rohini. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 235558 at soas.ac.uk Sun Apr 14 15:29:42 2019 From: 235558 at soas.ac.uk (Ruth Westoby) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 16:29:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] SOAS Centre of Yoga Studies: study group on yoga and gender Message-ID: <1159F3AB-9BAE-4958-8558-F6CA79C8EB58@soas.ac.uk> Dear All The Centre of Yoga Studies at SOAS, University of London, is holding a study group on yoga and gender on Tuesdays 5-6.30pm from 23 April for five weeks. The intention is to create small interactive sessions to share research. The scheduled sessions are listed below. Please contact me for further information or if you would like to attend. All the best Ruth Monika Hirmer April 23 Playing (with) Devi?: Praxis, ma?ya? and ungendered femininity Monika Hirmer is a doctoral candidate at SOAS researching ?Becoming the Goddess: Study of a contemporary South Indian Tantric tradition and its implications for concepts of personhood, gender relations and everyday life.? Room: G51, SOAS Main Building Dr Daniela Bevilacqua April 30 Yoga physical practices and female asceticism in India, an historical and ethnographic overview Daniela Bevilacqua is a postdoctoral researcher on the ERC-funded Hath?a Yoga Project, a South-Asianist ?collecting, through fieldwork, historical evidence of yoga practice and ethnographic data among living ascetic practitioners of yoga. She conducted doctoral research on the Ra?ma?nandi? Sampradaya and was awarded a doctoral thesis from the University of Rome, Sapienza and from the University of Paris X Nanterre Ouest La De?fense. Room: G51, SOAS Main Building Amelia Wood May 7 Power and gender in yoga Amelia Wood is researching for a doctoral thesis at SOAS on yoga, power and gender: an investigation into the abuse of power by modern gurus. Room: TBC Dr Suzanne Newcombe May 14 Yoga in Britain: Reinforcing or challenging traditional gender roles? Suzanne Newcombe is Lecturer in Religious Studies at the Open University and Research Fellow at Inform, based at King's College London. Her doctoral research at the University of Cambridge was on the popularisation of yoga and A?yurvedic medicine in Britain. She is currently working on the ERC-funded project AYURYOG ?Medicine, Immortality and Moksha: Entangled Histories of Yoga, Ayurveda and Alchemy in South Asia.? Room: TBC Sandra Sattler May 21 With hollow eyes and skull garlands: Fierce goddess imagery in pura?n?ic literature Sandra Sattler is conducting doctoral research on the iconography of fierce goddesses in Hinduism. She is tracing the development of these terrifying deities, who are most popularly known as Ca?mun?d?a? or Ka?li?, by analysing selected Pura?n?as and art historical material. Room: TBC. Ruth Westoby Doctoral Researcher South Asia SOAS University of London -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CYS-YogaandGenderstudygroupv2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 209703 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 16:43:04 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 10:43:04 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Adhyash. In-Reply-To: <20190315120639.20375.qmail@f4mail-235-174.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Alakendu Das, If you had not written that "superimposition" is a translation of adhyash, I would not have recognized what word you meant by adhyash. It is always helpful to use the standard transliteration for Sanskrit words, in this case adhy?sa; or if you do not have access to unicode characters, then adhyaasa or adhyAsa would work. Already in George Thibaut's 1890 translation of *The Ved?nta-s?tras with the Commentary by ?a?kar?c?rya*, Part 1, "superimposition" was used for adhy ?sa (p. 4, etc.). Swami Gambhirananda, too, in his 1965 translation of *Brahma-s?tra-bh??ya of ?r? ?a?kar?c?rya* used "superimposition" for adhy?sa (p. 2, etc.). This seems to be one of those cases where the English translation of a Sanskrit term, "superimposition" for adhy?sa, is so good that everyone adopted it. I have not taken note of other translations of adhy?sa. However, if a simpler translation is wanted, such as for English-as-a-second-language speakers who may not know the word "superimposition," one could use "false attribution," the definition of adhy ?sa given in Apte's Sanskrit-English dictionary. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 6:07 AM alakendu das via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Respected Scholars, > > Adhyash happens to be a significant concept in Vedanta philosophy.So > far,"Superimposition" is the only word which I came across,as a literal > translation of Adhyash in English.Is there any other word ,in the > philosophical context,which tantamounts to Adhyash? > > Alakendu Das. > > > > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:14:48 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 12:14:48 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Scientist article about the Yamnaya migrations (27 March 2019 ) Message-ID: - https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132230-200-story-of-most-murderous-people-of-all-time-revealed-in-ancient-dna/ :-( -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 20:17:49 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 14:17:49 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Scientist article about the Yamnaya migrations (27 March 2019 ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sven Ekelin kindly drew my attention to this online scan of the New Scientist article: https://www.academia.edu/38744439/History_of_Violence On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 12:14, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > - > https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132230-200-story-of-most-murderous-people-of-all-time-revealed-in-ancient-dna/ > > :-( > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 22:01:55 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 16:01:55 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Scientist article about the Yamnaya migrations (27 March 2019 ) In-Reply-To: <215039E2-589A-4E40-AA3A-B048C44401CB@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Here it is: Europe is not enough Almost all people of European descent can trace their paternal origins back to inhabitants of the Eurasian steppe. In recent years, it has become clear that these people, known as the Yamnaya, and their descendants travelled across the continent during the Neolithic replacing locals ? particularly the men ? as they went (see main story). Now we have discovered the Yamnaya also migrated east. A study by David Reich at Harvard Medical School and his colleagues posted to the bioRxiv preprint server in 2018 gives us an idea of when and how this happened. Using DNA samples from the remains of hundreds of people who lived across south Asia between about 7000 and 3000 years ago, the team found evidence that Yamnaya-related DNA began appearing there between 4000 and 3000 years ago. Those steppe pastoralists mingled with people who may have been related to the inhabitants of the famous Indus Valley Civilisation. In doing so, they formed an ?Ancient North Indian? population, one of the two ancestral populations that define the ancestry of most people living in the Indian subcontinent today. What?s more, incomers from the steppe may have brought major cultural changes. Speaking at New Scientist Live in September, Reich pointed out that people in the Indian subcontinent today who carry the largest amounts of Ancient North Indian ancestry tend to speak similar languages to one another, and often (but not always) belong to upper castes. As in Europe, it looks like the steppe migrants were largely young, male and violent. A study by Martin Richards at the University of Huddersfield, UK, and his colleagues found that maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA sequences changed relatively little when they arrived. By contrast, between 60 and 90 per cent of men now living in the area can trace their paternally inherited Y chromosome to Yamnaya-related migrants. ?Indigenous males seem to have been marginalised by the new arrivals much more than the women and were unable to have children to the same extent,? says Richards. ?This seems unlikely to have been a wholly benign process.? On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 15:55, Olivelle, J P wrote: > Thanks, Dominik. This article refers to another on p. 30 of the issue, > ?Europe is not enough? and deals with Yamnaya in India. Do you have access > to it? > > Patrick > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthew.scarborough at cantab.net Mon Apr 15 00:56:18 2019 From: matthew.scarborough at cantab.net (Matthew Scarborough) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 01:56:18 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Scientist article about the Yamnaya migrations (27 March 2019 ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <12f6ec48a656f76de2c6ccc0a3a3e077@cantab.net> The new picture that the aDNA evidence is painting for Indo-European expansions is indeed grim and disturbing. I feel there is an urgent duty upon us - especially upon those of us who are also Indo-Europeanists - to be vigilant against attempts to co-opt these narratives of violence and oppression in the distant prehistoric past to justify violence and oppression in the present day. I do not hesitate to add that in today's political climate where forces are actively pushing back and attempting to undermine the hard-fought advancements in human rights protections and progress towards gender equality achieved in the last decades, this seems more important than ever. While the picture *does* look very bad, I suppose popular science articles whose headline brands the Yamnaya peoples as 'the most murderous people of all time' (admittedly a more nuanced take in the actual text of the article) is perhaps not the best way of communicating the results of this research to the general public. Kind regards to all, Matthew --- Dr. M. J. C. Scarborough Research Associate in Indo-European Comparative Linguistics Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." On 2019-04-14 19:14, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > * https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132230-200-story-of-most-murderous-people-of-all-time-revealed-in-ancient-dna/ > > :-( > -- > > Professor Dominik Wujastyk [1] > , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > Department of History and Classics [2] > , University of Alberta, Canada > . > South Asia at the U of A: > sas.ualberta.ca [3] > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Links: ------ [1] http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk [2] http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/ [3] http://sas.ualberta.ca/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcgunkel at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:05:45 2019 From: dcgunkel at gmail.com (Dieter Gunkel) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 19 22:05:45 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, There's a chance that the two of you are operating with different notions of "macro-languages." Within Indo-Aryan, the languages that Alekandu Das mentioned are (I think) ones that are spoken by a relatively large number of people, which could be understood as rendering them as "macro." I don't think, however, that they belong to a single linguistic subgroup within Indo-Aryan. For example, Punjabi and Bihari belong to different linguistic subgroups of Indo-Aryan. For that reason, if looking for European parallels, one could point to regional languages with a large number of speakers vs. smaller ones, e.g. Spanish vs. Valencian. This is not to suggest that the situation is completely parallel, just to try to sort out what is meant by "macro" ? I don't think it's defining characteristic is linguistic affiliation. Best, Dieter On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 6:53 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > For instance, the Romance and Slavonic languages. > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------ > *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens alakendu das > via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] > *Verzonden:* zondag 14 april 2019 11:25 > *Aan:* indology > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. > > Of the Indo-Aryan language category, prevalent in India, it has been > known that the combination -Punjabi-Hindi-Bihari-Rajasthani-Pahari form a > group of Macrolanguages.I was interested to know about similar instances > prevalent in European languages,if at all, there exists any such > categorisation. > Alakendu Das. > > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 15 05:00:20 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 00:00:20 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 Message-ID: <501D95DD-9567-4FC8-AE54-12EB601E4BE5@aol.com> I have two questions on the text of T?v?ram 5.92.2. I am giving below the text and commentary on T?v?ram 5.92.2 as given in the Digital T?v?ram of IFP.? http://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/VMS5_092.HTM#p2 na?ukkattu??um, nakaiyu?um, nampa?kuk ka?ukkak kallava?am _i?uv?rka?kuk ko?ukkak ko?ka _e?a _uraipp?rka?ai _i?ukka? ceyyappe??r, _i?ku n??kum?! ????????????????, ?????????, ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????, ????? ????????! {5:92}__2+ {$} ???????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? (1) ???????? ????????????? Do not inflict sufferings on those who say give anything to the devotees and those who actually give to them who play on the instrument Kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively. [[???????? a kind of drum; ???????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ??????? (campantar, tiruvi?imi?alai (8) 6); ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? (cuntarar, tirukk??ap?r, 5)]] ??????? ???????? leave from this place also. [[Variant reading: (1) ???????? ???????????]] The first question is a minor one. Although the commentary uses ?namparkku? instead of ?nampa?ku?, is the reading ?nampa?ku? considered to be the correct reading? The second question is more involved. The translation with two different types of people, who are to be protected from suffering at the hands of Yama?s messengers does not make sense. I think the reading ?ko?ukkak ko?ka? should be corrected to ?ko?ukka ko?ka?, where both ?ko?ukka? and ?ko?ka? are imperative/optative forms. In that case, the messengers of Yama are asked not to inflict sufferings on those who say ?give (to) and receive (from) those who play the kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively.? It is possible that the erroneous insertion of ??-k? in ?ko?ukkak? had happened long ago. Has anyone seen any manuscripts with the variant ??ko?ukka?? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Mon Apr 15 05:04:51 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 05:04:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. Message-ID: <1555304114.S.43823.autosave.drafts.1555304691.17407@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Gunkel, Yes,Punjabi and Bihari are different linguistic subgroups from two different parts of India, namely North and East.But they have ramified from Hindi,(a regional variant) which in it's turn  ,has its roots in Sanskrit, written in Devnagari script .It's like a tree spreading out from a seed.                       Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: Dieter Gunkel <dcgunkel at gmail.com> Sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 07:36:03 GMT+0530 To: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. Dear all,  There's a chance that the two of you are operating with different notions of "macro-languages." Within Indo-Aryan, the languages that Alekandu Das mentioned are (I think) ones that are spoken by a relatively large number of people, which could be understood as rendering them as "macro." I don't think, however, that they belong to a single linguistic subgroup within Indo-Aryan. For example, Punjabi and Bihari belong to different linguistic subgroups of Indo-Aryan.  For that reason, if looking for European parallels, one could point to regional languages with a large number of speakers vs. smaller ones, e.g. Spanish vs. Valencian. This is not to suggest that the situation is completely parallel, just to try to sort out what is meant by "macro" ? I don't think it's defining characteristic is linguistic affiliation. Best,  Dieter On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 6:53 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: For instance, the Romance and Slavonic languages. Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens alakendu das via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: zondag 14 april 2019 11:25 Aan: indology Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Macro languages. Of the Indo-Aryan language category, prevalent  in  India, it has been known that the combination -Punjabi-Hindi-Bihari-Rajasthani-Pahari form a group of Macrolanguages.I was interested to know about similar instances prevalent in European languages,if at all, there exists any such  categorisation.        Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Apr 15 08:36:09 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 08:36:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 In-Reply-To: <501D95DD-9567-4FC8-AE54-12EB601E4BE5@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Dr Palaniappan About nampa?ku, is it not the dative of nampa?, "god", in casu ?iva: "beating the drum for Lord ?iva"? Probably I miss the point, but I do not see any problem in ko?ukka(k) kol?ka, "consider (kol?ka) to give (ko?ukka) to those who beat the drum ...". But as said, I may have missed the point and maybe for the verb kol? another meaning should be looked for. Best Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: maandag 15 april 2019 7:00 Aan: Indology List Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 I have two questions on the text of T?v?ram 5.92.2. I am giving below the text and commentary on T?v?ram 5.92.2 as given in the Digital T?v?ram of IFP. http://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/VMS5_092.HTM#p2 na?ukkattu??um, nakaiyu?um, nampa?kuk ka?ukkak kallava?am _i?uv?rka?kuk ko?ukkak ko?ka _e?a _uraipp?rka?ai _i?ukka? ceyyappe??r, _i?ku n??kum?! ????????????????, ?????????, ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????, ????? ????????! {5:92}__2+ {$} ???????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? (1) ???????? ????????????? Do not inflict sufferings on those who say give anything to the devotees and those who actually give to them who play on the instrument Kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively. [[???????? a kind of drum; ???????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ??????? (campantar, tiruvi?imi?alai (8) 6); ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? (cuntarar, tirukk??ap?r, 5)]] ??????? ???????? leave from this place also. [[Variant reading: (1) ???????? ???????????]] The first question is a minor one. Although the commentary uses ?namparkku? instead of ?nampa?ku?, is the reading ?nampa?ku? considered to be the correct reading? The second question is more involved. The translation with two different types of people, who are to be protected from suffering at the hands of Yama?s messengers does not make sense. I think the reading ?ko?ukkak ko?ka? should be corrected to ?ko?ukka ko?ka?, where both ?ko?ukka? and ?ko?ka? are imperative/optative forms. In that case, the messengers of Yama are asked not to inflict sufferings on those who say ?give (to) and receive (from) those who play the kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively.? It is possible that the erroneous insertion of ?-k? in ?ko?ukkak? had happened long ago. Has anyone seen any manuscripts with the variant ??ko?ukka?? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 15 13:28:43 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 06:28:43 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ? ??????????: ??????????????????????? ??????? Radhika's name is sweet and the name of Krishna is enchanting. The love of Radhika and Krishna increases the joy of the world. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Mon Apr 15 13:36:46 2019 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 13:36:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Adhyash. Message-ID: <1555334322.S.9674.autosave.drafts.1555335406.13361@webmail.rediffmail.com> Mr.Riegle,On receipt of your reply to my query on Adhyash,I just wrote a thanks-giving reply yesterday.But I suddenly felt I need to write a little bit more on this.Indeed,"Superimposition",is an all-weather comprehensive transliteration of Adhyash.Adhyash , perhaps is the most appropriate logic with  which  to approach the entire philosophy of Absolute Monism or Adwaitya (in  Sanskrit) .How to explain.  the omnipresent ONE  from amongst the MANY.Why do we fail to get to the ultimate TRUTH?....because  a sheath of falsity is superimposed on the TRUTH,thus preventing us from getting to its root.Why can't we break this barrier or remove the sheath of falsity? ...due to our ignorance or nescience.  Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> Sent: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 22:13:22 GMT+0530 To: alakendu das <mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Adhyash. Dear Alakendu Das, If you had not written that "superimposition" is a translation of adhyash, I would not have recognized what word you meant by adhyash. It is always helpful to use the standard transliteration for Sanskrit words, in this case adhy?sa; or if you do not have access to unicode characters, then adhyaasa or adhyAsa would work. Already in George Thibaut's 1890 translation of The Ved?nta-s?tras with the Commentary by ?a?kar?c?rya, Part 1, "superimposition" was used for adhy?sa (p. 4, etc.). Swami Gambhirananda, too, in his 1965 translation of Brahma-s?tra-bh??ya of ?r? ?a?kar?c?rya used "superimposition" for adhy?sa (p. 2, etc.). This seems to be one of those cases where the English translation of a Sanskrit term, "superimposition" for adhy?sa, is so good that everyone adopted it. I have not taken note of other translations of adhy?sa. However, if a simpler translation is wanted, such as for English-as-a-second-language speakers who may not know the word "superimposition," one could use "false attribution," the definition of adhy?sa given in Apte's Sanskrit-English dictionary. Best regards, David ReigleColorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 6:07 AM alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Respected Scholars, Adhyash happens to be a significant concept in Vedanta philosophy.So far,"Superimposition" is the only word which I came across,as a literal translation of Adhyash in English.Is there any other word ,in the philosophical context,which tantamounts to Adhyash?    Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Mon Apr 15 15:31:09 2019 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 11:31:09 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Scientist article about the Yamnaya migrations (27 March 2019 ) In-Reply-To: <12f6ec48a656f76de2c6ccc0a3a3e077@cantab.net> Message-ID: <4BC865FA-CA34-447E-81F8-2641B5D571FC@berkeley.edu> > ?Indigenous males seem to have been marginalised by the new arrivals much more than the women and were unable to have children to the same extent,? says Richards. ?This seems unlikely to have been a wholly benign process.? > Perhaps it?s worth pointing out that current research suggests that Ashkenazi Jews also have a mixture of DNA ? paternal DNA from the near east but maternal DNA mostly from Europe. I don?t think anyone has suggested that the Jews have a violent history as anything but victims in Europe. It seems to me that Richards? suggestion is irresponsible and almost certainly inaccurate. George Hart > On Apr 14, 2019, at 8:56 PM, Matthew Scarborough via INDOLOGY wrote: > > The new picture that the aDNA evidence is painting for Indo-European expansions is indeed grim and disturbing. I feel there is an urgent duty upon us ? especially upon those of us who are also Indo-Europeanists ? to be vigilant against attempts to co-opt these narratives of violence and oppression in the distant prehistoric past to justify violence and oppression in the present day. I do not hesitate to add that in today?s political climate where forces are actively pushing back and attempting to undermine the hard-fought advancements in human rights protections and progress towards gender equality achieved in the last decades, this seems more important than ever. > > While the picture *does* look very bad, I suppose popular science articles whose headline brands the Yamnaya peoples as 'the most murderous people of all time' (admittedly a more nuanced take in the actual text of the article) is perhaps not the best way of communicating the results of this research to the general public. > > Kind regards to all, > > Matthew > > --- > Dr. M. J. C. Scarborough > Research Associate in Indo-European Comparative Linguistics > Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History > > ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? > "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." > > > On 2019-04-14 19:14, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > >> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132230-200-story-of-most-murderous-people-of-all-time-revealed-in-ancient-dna/ >> :-( >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk , >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , >> Department of History and Classics , >> University of Alberta, Canada . >> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Mon Apr 15 21:25:50 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 19 16:25:50 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4557BB6B-9ED3-459E-944F-053CBF850F2F@aol.com> Dear Dr. Tieken, Yes, nampa?ku is the dative of nampa?. While both nampa? and the honorific form nampar could occur in the verse, I wanted to know if the correct variant in the verse was based on nampa?. As for ?ko?ukkak?, I would expect an exhortation of right behavior would simply say ?give? rather than ?consider to give?. Moreover, I think what we have here is an underlying egalitarian behavior expected among the followers of the bhakti cult. Another ?aiva example is from Tiruppall???u 2 of C?nta??r from the 9th Tirumu?ai. mi??u ma?attavar p?mi?ka?, meyya?iy?rka? viraintu vammi? ko??um ko?uttum ku?iku?i ?ca?ku ??ceymmi? ku??m pukuntu a??am ka?anta ve??ap poru? a?avillat?r ??anta ve??app poru? pa??um i??um? e??um u??a poru? e??? pall???u k??utum? I feel ?ko??um ko?uttum? in the second line refers to the same behavior. Also, in Vai??ava To??ara?ippo?i ??v?r?s Tirum?lai 42 we find the exhortation ?ko?umi? ko?mi??. Regards, Palaniappan From: "Tieken, H.J.H." Date: Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:36 AM To: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappant , Indology List Subject: RE: A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 Dear Dr Palaniappan About nampa?ku, is it not the dative of nampa?, "god", in casu ?iva: "beating the drum for Lord ?iva"? Probably I miss the point, but I do not see any problem in ko?ukka(k) kol?ka, "consider (kol?ka) to give (ko?ukka) to those who beat the drum ...". But as said, I may have missed the point and maybe for the verb kol? another meaning should be looked for. Best Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: maandag 15 april 2019 7:00 Aan: Indology List Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 I have two questions on the text of T?v?ram 5.92.2. I am giving below the text and commentary on T?v?ram 5.92.2 as given in the Digital T?v?ram of IFP. http://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/VMS5_092.HTM#p2 na?ukkattu??um, nakaiyu?um, nampa?kuk ka?ukkak kallava?am _i?uv?rka?kuk ko?ukkak ko?ka _e?a _uraipp?rka?ai _i?ukka? ceyyappe??r, _i?ku n??kum?! ????????????????, ?????????, ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????, ????? ????????! {5:92}__2+ {$} ???????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? (1) ???????? ????????????? Do not inflict sufferings on those who say give anything to the devotees and those who actually give to them who play on the instrument Kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively. [[???????? a kind of drum; ???????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ??????? (campantar, tiruvi?imi?alai (8) 6); ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? (cuntarar, tirukk??ap?r, 5)]] ??????? ???????? leave from this place also. [[Variant reading: (1) ???????? ???????????]] The first question is a minor one. Although the commentary uses ?namparkku? instead of ?nampa?ku?, is the reading ?nampa?ku? considered to be the correct reading? The second question is more involved. The translation with two different types of people, who are to be protected from suffering at the hands of Yama?s messengers does not make sense. I think the reading ?ko?ukkak ko?ka? should be corrected to ?ko?ukka ko?ka?, where both ?ko?ukka? and ?ko?ka? are imperative/optative forms. In that case, the messengers of Yama are asked not to inflict sufferings on those who say ?give (to) and receive (from) those who play the kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively.? It is possible that the erroneous insertion of ?-k? in ?ko?ukkak? had happened long ago. Has anyone seen any manuscripts with the variant ??ko?ukka?? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gaiapintucci at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 04:58:15 2019 From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 13:58:15 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Medin=C4=ABko=C5=9Ba?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I am wondering if there are any studies about the Medin?ko?a. To be more precise, I am purely concerned with the issue of its dating. I only know of PK Gode's article "Some new evidence for the Date of the Lexicon Medini -- Between A.D. 1200 and 1275" (New Indian Antiquary VII, republished in the 1953 volume Studies in Indian Literary History). I shall be thankful for any reference. All the best, Gaia Pintucci -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 05:39:03 2019 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 11:09:03 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reading Early Material Texts: A Paleography and Codicology Workshop, May 20-22, Delhi Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I would like to extend an invitation to participate in *"Reading Early Material Texts: a Paleography and Codicology Workshop ,"* to be held at the *University of Chicago Center* in *New Delhi *on *May 20-22*. In particular, I would like to encourage postgraduate students in Indian universities and institutions to apply since the University of Chicago will cover travel to Delhi, accommodation, and meals for the duration of the workshop for a select number of students. (See details on applying below.) This three-day workshop will provide graduate students and early career scholars an opportunity to receive basic training in the paleography and codicology of South Asian material texts?including manuscript books, scrolls, notebooks, and other handwritten documents?and provide more advanced scholars an opportunity to share approaches, receive feedback on current research, and reflect critically on traditions and trends of textual criticism, scholarly editing, book history, and the digital humanities. The workshop will consist of eight presentations by scholars in which they will guide participants through the process of working with manuscripts in a ?hands on? fashion, introducing them to techniques not only for reading textual artifacts, but also for understanding those artifacts in their historical, social, and material totality using both traditional and emerging methods (e.g. text criticism and techniques from the digital humanities). Documents in Sanskrit, Persian, Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Marathi, Gujarati, and other languages, and in multiple scripts, will be addressed. Session leaders include Sweta Prajapati (Oriental Institute, MSU Baroda), Prachi Deshpande (CSSSC, Kolkata), Chander Shekhar (Delhi University), Thibaut d'Hubert (University of Chicago), Achintya Biswas (Jadavpur University), and Tyler Williams (University of Chicago). (Additional session leaders are TBA). The workshop will feature a *keynote address* by the prominent art historian, art critic, and scholar of manuscript culture *B.N. Goswamy* on *May 20th at 6:00pm*. *Student participants:* Post graduate (MA/MPhil/PhD) students from all South Asian countries (including India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka) are encouraged to participate in the workshop. Seats in the venue are limited, so we request interested students to complete the Student Participant Application Form . The Center will inform students by the end of April whether they have been selected to participate in the workshop. The University of Chicago is also able to offer free travel to and accommodation in Delhi for a limited number of student participants. Students who would like to participate in the workshop but find it financially difficult to do so are encouraged to apply for this bursary/scholarship by filling in the relevant parts of the Student Participant Application Form . The Center will inform students by the end of April whether they have been selected to receive the travel and accommodation bursary. *Faculty/researcher participants:* University faculty and researchers (including independent researchers) that are working with material texts or who would like to begin working with material texts are encouraged to participate in the workshop. Seats in the venue are limited, so we kindly request interested scholars to register via the Participant Registration Form . Regards, Tyler Williams Assistant Professor South Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Tue Apr 16 07:27:10 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 07:27:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 In-Reply-To: <4557BB6B-9ED3-459E-944F-053CBF850F2F@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Dr Palaniappan, So I misunderstood your question about ko?ukka(k)kol?ka. But also in the case of ko?umi? kol?mi? it all comes down to finding the right meaning of the verb kol?. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [palaniappa at aol.com] Verzonden: maandag 15 april 2019 23:25 Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.; Indology List Onderwerp: Re: A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 Dear Dr. Tieken, Yes, nampa?ku is the dative of nampa?. While both nampa? and the honorific form nampar could occur in the verse, I wanted to know if the correct variant in the verse was based on nampa?. As for ?ko?ukkak?, I would expect an exhortation of right behavior would simply say ?give? rather than ?consider to give?. Moreover, I think what we have here is an underlying egalitarian behavior expected among the followers of the bhakti cult. Another ?aiva example is from Tiruppall???u 2 of C?nta??r from the 9th Tirumu?ai. mi??u ma?attavar p?mi?ka?, meyya?iy?rka? viraintu vammi? ko??um ko?uttum ku?iku?i ?ca?ku ??ceymmi? ku??m pukuntu a??am ka?anta ve??ap poru? a?avillat?r ??anta ve??app poru? pa??um i??um e??um u??a poru? e??? pall???u k??utum? I feel ?ko??um ko?uttum? in the second line refers to the same behavior. Also, in Vai??ava To??ara?ippo?i ??v?r?s Tirum?lai 42 we find the exhortation ?ko?umi? ko?mi??. Regards, Palaniappan From: "Tieken, H.J.H." Date: Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:36 AM To: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappant , Indology List Subject: RE: A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 Dear Dr Palaniappan About nampa?ku, is it not the dative of nampa?, "god", in casu ?iva: "beating the drum for Lord ?iva"? Probably I miss the point, but I do not see any problem in ko?ukka(k) kol?ka, "consider (kol?ka) to give (ko?ukka) to those who beat the drum ...". But as said, I may have missed the point and maybe for the verb kol? another meaning should be looked for. Best Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: maandag 15 april 2019 7:00 Aan: Indology List Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] A question on Tevaram 5.92.2 I have two questions on the text of T?v?ram 5.92.2. I am giving below the text and commentary on T?v?ram 5.92.2 as given in the Digital T?v?ram of IFP. http://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/VMS5_092.HTM#p2 na?ukkattu??um, nakaiyu?um, nampa?kuk ka?ukkak kallava?am _i?uv?rka?kuk ko?ukkak ko?ka _e?a _uraipp?rka?ai _i?ukka? ceyyappe??r, _i?ku n??kum?! ????????????????, ?????????, ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????, ????? ????????! {5:92}__2+ {$} ???????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????? (1) ???????? ????????????? Do not inflict sufferings on those who say give anything to the devotees and those who actually give to them who play on the instrument Kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively. [[???????? a kind of drum; ???????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ??????? (campantar, tiruvi?imi?alai (8) 6); ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? (cuntarar, tirukk??ap?r, 5)]] ??????? ???????? leave from this place also. [[Variant reading: (1) ???????? ???????????]] The first question is a minor one. Although the commentary uses ?namparkku? instead of ?nampa?ku?, is the reading ?nampa?ku? considered to be the correct reading? The second question is more involved. The translation with two different types of people, who are to be protected from suffering at the hands of Yama?s messengers does not make sense. I think the reading ?ko?ukkak ko?ka? should be corrected to ?ko?ukka ko?ka?, where both ?ko?ukka? and ?ko?ka? are imperative/optative forms. In that case, the messengers of Yama are asked not to inflict sufferings on those who say ?give (to) and receive (from) those who play the kallava?am with speed, in times of adversity when their minds tremble and when people laugh derisively.? It is possible that the erroneous insertion of ?-k? in ?ko?ukkak? had happened long ago. Has anyone seen any manuscripts with the variant ??ko?ukka?? Thanks in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 16 13:21:47 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 06:21:47 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ??????????? ???? ???? ????????? ? ???????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ??????? Radhika and Krishna are two faces of the same ultimate principle. Though there is a difference of form for play, there is ultimately a unity. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Tue Apr 16 14:09:36 2019 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 14:09:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems we are starting all over again. Probably some people can't leave it alone. So be it. But I object to the Indology List being used as a pillory! Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Joydeep via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: dinsdag 16 april 2019 15:19 Aan: Ananya Vajpeyi CC: Audrey Truschke; Indology; Dr. Kaushal Panwar Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi https://www.buzzfeed.com/christinefair/himtoo-a-reckoning https://shortbustoparadise.wordpress.com/2018/02/23/the-university-chicago-is-okay-with-dipesh-chakrabarty-propositioning-a-graduate-student/ If we wish to address gender inequality in academia, a key issue we must confront is the system of trailing hires, which encourages and legitimates relationships between powerful professors (usually male) and students (usually female). The article mentions Dipesh Chakrabarty?Rochona Majumdar, but several others come to mind. The complainant mentions that Pollock shielded Chakrabarty, and it?s interesting that Shelly also had a relationship with a student (Allison Busch, PhD 2003; Shelly was the advisor on both Majumdar?s and Busch?s dissertations). I?m not saying these relationships would not have occurred without the system of trailing hires, but clearly faced with a choice between joining the ranks of thousands of unemployed or underemployed PhDs and marrying a tenure professor (usually drawing two or three additional salaries besides a hefty pay package 15?20 times what the average adjunct earns), the system of trailing hires makes the choice that much easier (Busch was hired to Columbia as the junior hire in 2005, the same year as Shelly; the NY marriage license dates July 11, 2007). Instead of incentivizing relationships with professors, universities should discourage them. If it was clear that a student, who married her professor, would not be hired under any circumstances, there would be a massive disincentive to entering such relationships. Instead, powerful men (professors but also provosts, deans, etc.) have created a system of institutionalized concubinage paid for by taxpayer and tuition dollars. The trailing hire injects sexual competition into a system in which students already compete for attention from professors, who can not only withhold the PhD but also open up career paths (exchanges, grants, recommendations, fellowships, hires, etc.). Women almost always pay the price. I learned an interesting term from the article: ?enabler.? If #MeToo has taught us one thing, it is that a man who has behaved inappropriately once has done it before and will do it again. One of the interesting details to emerge from the Searle scandal is that female colleagues and former students knew of the behavior and had kept silent. The female scholars involved face Hilary?s choice. We have to look at this as an institutional problem with multiple stakeholders (e.g., editors who publish their colleagues? work, students who invite professors for lectures, provide publicity, write op-eds, i.e., the entire system of how knowledge and power are created and circulated). In Philosophy, women overcome the stakeholder problem by prioritizing solidarity and creating a database. Perhaps we need a similar database for Indology. There are examples from Germany (one I knew personally: Mitsuyo Demoto-Hahn; Michael Hahn?s student, hired to the Marburg Indology Department and recipient of a DFG grant). The problem is universal (there was a Facebook list of Indian academics circulating that also mentioned Chakrabarty) and what we?ve learned is that there are concentrations of abuse (Blake Wentworth; Pollock was again the dissertation advisor) and an international circuit through which abuse travels (that Indian scholars can also tap into provided they facilitate abusers? careers). Dr. Joydeep Bagchee Academia.edu Homepage The Nay Science Argument and Design Philology and Criticism: A Guide to Mah?bh?rata Textual Criticism ___________________ What, then, is Philosophy? Philosophy is the supremely precious. Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5 On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 12:38 PM Ananya Vajpeyi via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Shri Varakhedi, I received your long note addressed to me, but since so did the entire Indology List it appears, I am responding via the list. No, unfortunately I haven't had time to watch the proceedings in Udupi. But I really don't know what you expect from me. Engagement? Respect? Agreement? Should I abandon my convictions in the face of this barrage of mansplaining? It would be so helpful if you might begin by figuring out an appropriate mode of address for say Kaushal Panwar or me, which either uses our academic titles ("Dr."+ Surname), or a conventional mode of professional address ("Professor" + Surname), or our respective first names, in a friendly and non-offensive way. Further, it would encourage a genuine dialogue if you and your colleagues in forums like the BVP were not continually attacking Kaushal Panwar, Audrey Truschke, Sheldon Pollock, and so many others I think of as my friends, colleagues, teachers and fellow-students of Sanskrit, on and off list, in private and in public, in print and in speech. Your hostilities are as relentless as they are senseless. You perceive threats to your religion, caste, gender and beliefs where these are in no way factors driving any of us in our thinking, life or scholarship. You at once seek our attention and make us the targets of such tremendous antagonism that after a point it is simply not possible to either hear what you have to say or debate with you in any sensible manner. We have fundamental disagreements, let us not equivocate. The way we see texts, language, history, society, politics, truth, transcendence, institutions, practices; the way we make sense of what we read and what we experience, these are often incommensurable or untranslatable. Indology is not an Indian forum and I have no desire to make it into a platform to perform my nationalism or yours. It is not a Hindu forum and I refuse to position Sanskrit texts within a "Hindu" framework in any case, with anyone, not just you. I intend to continue reading whatever texts interest me, with the best philological, hermeneutic and exegetical tools and skills at my disposal, and to interpret them in ways that I think don't just make sense of the texts themselves but also make sense within a context of reading, research, pedagogy, historiography and a wider public conversation with cultural and political dimensions. You can shout at me when I'm on stage or abuse me on your groups and lists; you can write me polite but essentially tone-deaf letters; you can rebut my arguments with whatever capacities you can muster, it's all fine, it's part of the game. Personally I don't like the social media harassment and trolling, but let us say, as in the old proverb, the dogs bark, the caravan moves on, something like this. However I fear you have missed the point, of the Caste and Gender forum at the WSC last summer; of my article in the Hindu; of all the ferment in academia east and west around gender equality, caste equality, equality, period. Either you're committed to equality, as the plinth of your politics and your scholarship, or you're not. That's where I'm coming from and that's the path on which I plan to continue. I'm not here to convince people that they should accept inequality as a given and learn to live with it. I don't see that as what I signed up to do when I chose the life of the mind. Your complaints regarding the Vancouver event should please be directed to the organisers, hosts and sponsors, and not at the invited speakers, who were simply there to talk about what they were invited to talk about. Sincerely, Ananya Vajpeyi. -- Ananya Vajpeyi Fellow and Associate Professor Centre for the Study of Developing Societies 29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines New Delhi 110054 e: vajpeyi at csds.in ext: 229 http://www.csds.in/faculty_ananya_vajpeyi.htm [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B0BiexZKrQe8OEU4VGpWU05CTk0&revid=0B0BiexZKrQe8dlBRTWdWWkZFaHdKV3Z0WWoxQnh6Sm1zYkp3PQ] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in Tue Apr 16 16:21:04 2019 From: raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in (Raja Rosenhagen) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 21:51:04 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Anek=C4=81ntav=C4=81da_-_suggestions=3F?= Message-ID: <04ba01d4f470$655c0170$30140450$@ashoka.edu.in> Dear all, Greetings from Ashoka University! I am primarily a philosopher, but have a background in Indian Studies (especially Hindi and Sanskrit). As I am currently compiling a reading list on Anek?ntav?da, I would love to receive your suggestions. Indeed, every suggestion will be very much appreciated ? either via the list (if you think it is of interest to many) or via personal email (see below)! Thank you and best wishes, Raja -- Raja Rosenhagen Assistant Professor of Philosophy Ashoka University raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 21:12:13 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 19 15:12:13 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Medin=C4=ABko=C5=9Ba?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See Vogel, C., 1979. *Indian Lexicography* . In *A History of Indian Literature* ed. J. Gonda. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, p. 347 et passim. http://n2t.net/ ark:/13960/t9k427t7q -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Wed Apr 17 04:56:31 2019 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 06:56:31 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Medin=C4=ABko=C5=9Ba?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See Claus Vogel, Indian Lexicography. *Revised and enlarged edition*. Ed. by J?rgen Hanneder and Martin Straube. M?nchen 2015. (Indologica Marpurgensia. 6). Regards, WS Am Di., 16. Apr. 2019 um 23:12 Uhr schrieb Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > See > Vogel, C., 1979. *Indian Lexicography* . In *A History of Indian > Literature* ed. J. Gonda. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, p. 347 et passim. > http://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t9k427t7q > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 07:46:23 2019 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 09:46:23 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY Message-ID: Dear Members of INDOLOGY, The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a temporary or permanent removal from the list.? ( http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/). The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list. With best regards, Philipp Maas Governing Committee Member on duty __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 17 13:19:44 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 06:19:44 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???????? ??????? ???? ???????? ?????????? ? ???????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ??????? Gods in heaven rejoice watching [the dance of] Krishna and Radhika. Showering flowers they clap with their hands. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Apr 17 16:54:36 2019 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 16:54:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY Message-ID: Dear Philipp, I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much to the point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one could find it defamatory would be by confusing correlation with causation. To those who have witnessed this forum over a period of several years, the idea that the committee had ?no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list? may seem far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of gender equality not be made by the committee proceeding in this way, but the committee may be seen to be actively hindering the making of such progress. I may be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s previous contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this list, may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to overreact in this instance. One might also wonder whether the committee?s decision is somehow connected to its current male to female ratio (4:1 following the unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). Yours collegially, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University ---------------------------------- From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY Sent: 17 April 2019 08:46 To: Indology > Cc: jbagchee at gmail.com; Indology Committee > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY Dear Members of INDOLOGY, The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a temporary or permanent removal from the list.? (http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/). The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list. With best regards, Philipp Maas Governing Committee Member on duty __________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:08:04 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 13:08:04 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Luis_O._Gomez_Sukh=C4=81vat=C4=AB-vy=C5=ABha-s=C5=ABtra_translations?= Message-ID: As many of you know, English translations by the late Luis O. Gomez of both the shorter and longer Sukh?vat?-vy?ha-s?tras, from Sanskrit, and again from Chinese, were published in 1996 by University of Hawai'i Press in the book titled, The Land of Bliss. These were what he called his "free" translations of these texts. Two more volumes were to come out, giving his technical translations of these texts, heavily annotated. Does anyone know if these translations were completed? If they still exist? If they will ever be published? Thanks. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 21:56:56 2019 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 23:56:56 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] LtoBB? Message-ID: The problem that is attributed to *authors* of messages on the list -- grown over several decades and much appreciated as a precious medium for students and scholars in our domain -- could that be, in part, *also* a problem of lack of *organization of the list*, perhaps even more, of the *archive*? The linearity of the list could then be replaced or supplemented by the two-dimensionality of a bulletin board, divided into three main categories (each with possible sub-categories): (A) agents and places of indology; (B) the process of indology (projects, scholarships, positions); (C) the object of indology (questions ranging from: difficult passages, syntactic categories, to searches for scans of rare publications, etc etc.). Accepted members can choose to react to messages or post their message in one of the provided categories, and the message will remain available there. No need anymore for a message belonging to category (A) to receive a large number of comments by those more interested in category (B) or (C), on whether or not the message should have been posted or whether it or the thread to which it belongs is taking too much bandwidth etc. In a bulletin-board setting an interested reader can focus on the required category and need not be regretting to have started to read a message that does not provide the information seeked for, for instance on scholarships, job openings etc. As the present list is a private enterprise set up by a visionary colleague in the 1990s and administered by volunteering committee members (including the undersigned from ca. 2000 to ca. 2012), I have no objection to these committee members -- who represent nothing or no-one since they are co-opted but not voted for -- taking their own decisions in order to keep the list focused on what they perceive and have announced as the list's main domains of interest. Adding a "donation-button" to the Indology.info website for entirely anonymous donations without any obligation and without providing any privilege should in the meantime be considered. With best regards, Jan -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Wed Apr 17 21:56:54 2019 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 09:56:54 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1555538214.4723.9.camel@fastmail.com> Dear Colleagues, It would be good to think that the upshot of recent discussions was a move towards greater openness and diversity. Unfortunately, I can't see this recent decision by the committee as anything but retrograde. With kind regards, Richard -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:54:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY To: indology at list.indology.info Reply-to: Simon Brodbeck From: Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY Dear Philipp, I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much to the point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one could find it defamatory would be by confusing correlation with causation. To those who have witnessed this forum over a period of several years, the idea that the committee had ?no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list? may seem far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of gender equality not be made by the committee proceeding in this way, but the committee may be seen to be actively hindering the making of such progress. I may be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s previous contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this list, may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to overreact in this instance. One might also wonder whether the committee?s decision is somehow connected to its current male to female ratio (4:1 following the unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). Yours collegially, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University ---------------------------------- From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY Sent: 17 April 2019 08:46 To: Indology Cc: jbagchee at gmail.com; Indology Committee Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY Dear Members of INDOLOGY, The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a temporary or permanent removal from the list.? (http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/). The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list. With best regards, Philipp Maas Governing Committee Member on duty __________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 22:04:06 2019 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 19 16:04:06 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] LtoBB? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The bulletin-board idea has some merits (and demerits). It was actually put to a vote of the membership, quite a long time ago. At that time, there was a unanimous and very strong preference for a continuation of the plain email list in its present form. Best, Dominik Wujastyk On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The problem that is attributed to *authors* of messages on the list -- > grown over several decades and much appreciated as a precious medium for > students and scholars in our domain -- could that be, in part, *also* a > problem of lack of *organization of the list*, perhaps even more, of the > *archive*? > The linearity of the list could then be replaced or supplemented by the > two-dimensionality of a bulletin board, divided into three main categories > (each with possible sub-categories): (A) agents and places of indology; (B) > the process of indology (projects, scholarships, positions); (C) the object > of indology (questions ranging from: difficult passages, syntactic > categories, to searches for scans of rare publications, etc etc.). > Accepted members can choose to react to messages or post their message in > one of the provided categories, and the message will remain available > there. > No need anymore for a message belonging to category (A) to receive a large > number of comments by those more interested in category (B) or (C), on > whether or not the message should have been posted or whether it or the > thread to which it belongs is taking too much bandwidth etc. > In a bulletin-board setting an interested reader can focus on the required > category and need not be regretting to have started to read a message that > does not provide the information seeked for, for instance on scholarships, > job openings etc. > As the present list is a private enterprise set up by a visionary > colleague in the 1990s and administered by volunteering committee members > (including the undersigned from ca. 2000 to ca. 2012), I have no objection > to these committee members -- who represent nothing or no-one since they > are co-opted but not voted for -- taking their own decisions in order to > keep the list focused on what they perceive and have announced as the > list's main domains of interest. > Adding a "donation-button" to the Indology.info website for entirely > anonymous donations without any obligation and without providing any > privilege should in the meantime be considered. > With best regards, > Jan > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 04:08:57 2019 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 04:08:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Scientist article about the Yamnaya migrations (27 March 2019 ) In-Reply-To: <4BC865FA-CA34-447E-81F8-2641B5D571FC@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <1194629983.1358360.1555560537082@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for pointing this out George. I was going to make a comment along similar lines but didn't have your very helpful example at hand. Do you happen to have a citation for this study? Best, Dean On Monday, April 15, 2019, 9:01:57 PM GMT+5:30, George Hart via INDOLOGY wrote: ?Indigenous males seem to have been marginalised by the new arrivals much more than the women and were unable to have children to the same extent,? says Richards. ?This seems unlikely to have been a wholly benign process.? Perhaps it?s worth pointing out that current research suggests that Ashkenazi Jews also have a mixture of DNA ? paternal DNA from the near east but maternal DNA mostly from Europe. I don?t think anyone has suggested that the Jews have a violent history as anything but victims in Europe. It seems to me that Richards? suggestion is irresponsible and almost certainly inaccurate. George Hart On Apr 14, 2019, at 8:56 PM, Matthew Scarborough via INDOLOGY wrote: The new picture that the aDNA evidence is painting for Indo-European expansions is indeed grim and disturbing. I feel there is an urgent duty upon us ? especially upon those of us who are also Indo-Europeanists ? to be vigilant against attempts to co-opt these narratives of violence and oppression in the distant prehistoric past to justify violence and oppression in the present day. I do not hesitate to add that in today?s political climate where forces are actively pushing back and attempting to undermine the hard-fought advancements in human rights protections and progress towards gender equality achieved in the last decades, this seems more important than ever. While the picture *does* look very bad, I suppose popular science articles whose headline brands the Yamnaya peoples as 'the most murderous people of all time' (admittedly a more nuanced take in the actual text of the article) is perhaps not the best way of communicating the results of this research to the general public. Kind regards to all, Matthew --- Dr. M. J. C. ScarboroughResearch Associate in Indo-European Comparative Linguistics Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." On 2019-04-14 19:14, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: - https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132230-200-story-of-most-murderous-people-of-all-time-revealed-in-ancient-dna/ :-(-- Professor?Dominik Wujastyk, Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, Department of History and Classics,University of Alberta, Canada.South Asia at the U of A:?sas.ualberta.ca?? _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 06:10:08 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 08:10:08 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Luis_O._Gomez_Sukh=C4=81vat=C4=AB-vy=C5=ABha-s=C5=ABtra_translations?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David As far as I know--and I tried to find out several times--Luis himself had no plans to publish whatever he had accomplished, despite my own entreaties and offers to help. Moreover, while I do not have direct contact with his widow, it is my understanding that access to the materials he left behind is not easy. As far as the smaller s?tra goes, however, I myself will publish something (let's not get into my promising a date!) which will try to take into account all available materials, including a reconsideration of the Sanskrit materials published by Fujita who, however, actually normalized his texts to a degree that perhaps slightly misrepresents the tradition as available. When I have something, I'll let you know. Best, Jonathan On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:08 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > As many of you know, English translations by the late Luis O. Gomez of > both the shorter and longer Sukh?vat?-vy?ha-s?tras, from Sanskrit, and > again from Chinese, were published in 1996 by University of Hawai'i Press > in the book titled, The Land of Bliss. These were what he called his "free" > translations of these texts. Two more volumes were to come out, giving his > technical translations of these texts, heavily annotated. Does anyone know > if these translations were completed? If they still exist? If they will > ever be published? > > Thanks. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 06:32:03 2019 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 06:32:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: <1555538214.4723.9.camel@fastmail.com> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I have no qualms in expressing my support to the committee's decision. When we walk in our orchard and see our gardener cut out dead wood or even parasites from our fruit-bearing trees, we do not reprimand him ? or her! ? for taking retrograde steps. Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:56 PM To: Simon Brodbeck; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY Dear Colleagues, It would be good to think that the upshot of recent discussions was a move towards greater openness and diversity. Unfortunately, I can't see this recent decision by the committee as anything but retrograde. With kind regards, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:54:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY To: indology at list.indology.info > Reply-to: Simon Brodbeck From: Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY > Dear Philipp, I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much to the point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one could find it defamatory would be by confusing correlation with causation. To those who have witnessed this forum over a period of several years, the idea that the committee had ?no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list? may seem far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of gender equality not be made by the committee proceeding in this way, but the committee may be seen to be actively hindering the making of such progress. I may be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s previous contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this list, may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to overreact in this instance. One might also wonder whether the committee?s decision is somehow connected to its current male to female ratio (4:1 following the unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). Yours collegially, Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University ---------------------------------- From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY Sent: 17 April 2019 08:46 To: Indology > Cc: jbagchee at gmail.com; Indology Committee > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY Dear Members of INDOLOGY, The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a temporary or permanent removal from the list.? (http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/). The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list. With best regards, Philipp Maas Governing Committee Member on duty __________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Thu Apr 18 08:27:56 2019 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 10:27:56 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I unreservedly second what Arlo has spoken out in explicit terms. After all, as its name suggests, the "Indology List" is, and should remain, a scholarly forum concentrating on research questions pertaining to cultural aspects of India. Whoever wants to shift their research activities to Indologists and their private affairs is kindly invited to subscribe to, or establish an, independent sociological discussion forum ("Indologists List"), where methods adequate to the social sciences are mastered and applied. It is certainly not possible to carry out serious research into the American academia or to make reasoned statements about them and their institutions by applying Indological methods, the only ones the great majority on this list has been trained in. In the absence of proper methodology, all accusations and lamentations put forward in this forum are nothing but vain chatter, gossip and insinuation, something we gladly forgo. It engenders suspicion of hubris when Indologists despite their lack of proper academic training in the respective fields publicly perform the business of other disciplines and mime the state prosecutor. Regards, WS Am Do., 18. Apr. 2019 um 08:32 Uhr schrieb Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear colleagues, > > I have no qualms in expressing my support to the committee's decision. > > When we walk in our orchard and see our gardener cut out dead wood or even > parasites from our fruit-bearing trees, we do not reprimand him ? or her! > ? for taking retrograde steps. > > Arlo Griffiths > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:56 PM > *To:* Simon Brodbeck; indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY > > Dear Colleagues, > > It would be good to think that the upshot of recent discussions was a > move towards greater openness and diversity. Unfortunately, I can't > see this recent decision by the committee as anything but retrograde. > > With kind regards, Richard > > > > -- > > Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica > > Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ > T: +6433121699 M: +64210640216 > r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org > > http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ > > -----Original Message----- > > *Date*: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:54:36 +0000 > *Subject*: Re: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY > *To*: indology at list.indology.info <%22indology at list.indology.info%22%20%3cindology at list.indology.info%3e>> > Reply-to: Simon Brodbeck > *From*: Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY > > > Dear Philipp, > > > > I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much to the > point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one could find it > defamatory would be by confusing correlation with causation. To those who > have witnessed this forum over a period of several years, the idea that the > committee had ?no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from > the list? may seem far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of > gender equality not be made by the committee proceeding in this way, but > the committee may be seen to be actively hindering the making of such > progress. I may be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s > previous contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this > list, may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to > overreact in this instance. One might also wonder whether the committee?s > decision is somehow connected to its current male to female ratio (4:1 > following the unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). > > > > Yours collegially, > > Simon Brodbeck > > Cardiff University > > > > ---------------------------------- > > *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info > ] *On Behalf Of *Philipp Maas via > INDOLOGY > *Sent:* 17 April 2019 08:46 > *To:* Indology > *Cc:* jbagchee at gmail.com; Indology Committee < > indology-owner at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY > > > > Dear Members of INDOLOGY, > > The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the > header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates > the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, > personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic > postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding > of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the > Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal > attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a > temporary or permanent removal from the list.? ( > http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/ > > ). > > > > The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY > Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee > permanently from the list. > > > > With best regards, > > > > Philipp Maas > > > > Governing Committee Member on duty > > __________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 18 13:23:45 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 06:23:45 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????????? ??????? ???????????? ??????? ? ????????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????? Lotus flowers bloom when the sun rises in the morning. Hearts of friends also rejoice with the arrival of Radha and Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 19:55:58 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 13:55:58 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Luis_O._Gomez_Sukh=C4=81vat=C4=AB-vy=C5=ABha-s=C5=ABtra_translations?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, Thanks for this information, that Luis himself seems to have had no plans to publish whatever he had accomplished. His Preface to the 1996 book gave the impression that much of the writing of the other two projected volumes was already done. Besides saying that he had prepared two different translations of each text, a free one and technical one (p. xi), he also wrote (p. xiv): "In the introductions to the technical translations, I explain in more detail what I mean by 'free' and 'technical.' There I also explain the theoretical justification for this distinction and in what sense this is to a great extent a working or pragmatic distinction." He indicated that his technical translations were heavily annotated. It would be a shame if all this work was lost forever. I was glad to hear of your own work on the smaller sutra. Please do let us all know when you publish this. Of course, no rush, but please live long enough to complete it (unlike the lamented Luis Gomez)! You mentioned the Sanskrit materials published by Fujita. I wonder if you are referring to the corrections he published in 1975, both to the larger sutra edited by Atsuuji Ashikaga, and to the smaller sutra edited by F. Max Muller and Bunyiu Nanjio. Or did he also publish complete editions? I only know of his published corrections. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:10 AM Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear David > As far as I know--and I tried to find out several times--Luis himself had > no plans to publish whatever he had accomplished, despite my own entreaties > and offers to help. Moreover, while I do not have direct contact with his > widow, it is my understanding that access to the materials he left behind > is not easy. > As far as the smaller s?tra goes, however, I myself will publish something > (let's not get into my promising a date!) which will try to take into > account all available materials, including a reconsideration of the > Sanskrit materials published by Fujita who, however, actually normalized > his texts to a degree that perhaps slightly misrepresents the tradition as > available. > When I have something, I'll let you know. > Best, Jonathan > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:08 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> As many of you know, English translations by the late Luis O. Gomez of >> both the shorter and longer Sukh?vat?-vy?ha-s?tras, from Sanskrit, and >> again from Chinese, were published in 1996 by University of Hawai'i Press >> in the book titled, The Land of Bliss. These were what he called his "free" >> translations of these texts. Two more volumes were to come out, giving his >> technical translations of these texts, heavily annotated. Does anyone know >> if these translations were completed? If they still exist? If they will >> ever be published? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 19:57:52 2019 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 19:57:52 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Anek=C4=81ntav=C4=81da_-_suggestions=3F?= In-Reply-To: <04ba01d4f470$655c0170$30140450$@ashoka.edu.in> Message-ID: <697945553.2701459.1555617472990@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Raja (if I may), Hopefully, this reply will be of general interest to the entire list. ?Anek?ntav?da is a topic that is of particular interest to me, so I am happy to share this list. Probably the best book on this topic is: Bimal Krishna Matilal, The Central Philosophy of Jainism (Anek?ntav?da)?(Ahmedabad: L.D. Institute of Indology, 1981) I also recommend: Satkari Mookerjee,?The Jaina Philosophy of Non-Absolutism:?A Critical Study of?Anek?ntav?da?(Delhi:??Motilal Banarsidass, 1978) Y.J. Padmarajiah,?A Comparative Study of the Jaina Theories of Reality and Knowledge?(Bombay:??Jain Sahitya Vikas Mandal, 1963) An excellent recent work which delves into the origins of anek?ntav?da is: Piotr Balcerowicz,?Early Asceticism in Jainism: ?jivikism and Jainism(London: Routledge, 2016) The following article by John Cort provides a great critique of the frequently asserted claim that anek?ntav?da historically functions as a philosophy of 'intellectual ahi?s?': John E. Cort, ??Intellectual Ahimsa? Revisited:??Jain Tolerance and Intolerance of?Others? (Philosophy East and West?Volume 50, Number 3 July 2000 324-347). Chapters 5 and 6 of my Jainism: An Introduction?(London: IB Tauris, 2009) present,?respectively, historical and philosophical analyses of anek?ntav?da and the related doctrines, nayav?da and sy?dvada ?These analyses, in turn, are based on my 2000 doctoral dissertation from the University of Chicago, Plurality and Relativity: Whitehead, Jainism, and the Reconstruction of Religious Pluralism. Paul Dundas' The Jains?(London: Routledge, 2002?second edition) and Padmanabh S. Jaini's The?Jaina Path of Purification?(Berkeley: University of California Press, 1979) have relevant sections on anek?ntav?da and sy?dv?da. ?I also recommend Tara Sethia's 2004 edited volume, Anek?nta and Ahi?s??(Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 2004). This is by no means a complete list, but it is a good start. ?I hope you find it useful! With best wishes,Jeff Dr. Jeffery D. Long Professor of Religion and Asian Studies Elizabethtown CollegeElizabethtown, PA https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong Series Editor,?Explorations in Indic Traditions: Theological, Ethical, and PhilosophicalLexington Books "One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." ?(Holy Mother Sarada Devi) "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan) On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 12:21:57 PM EDT, Raja Rosenhagen via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear all, ? Greetings from Ashoka University! I am primarily a philosopher, but have a background in Indian Studies (especially Hindi and Sanskrit). As I am currently compiling a reading list on Anek?ntav?da, I would love to receive your suggestions. ? Indeed, every suggestion will be very much appreciated ? either via the list (if you think it is of interest to many) or via personal email (see below)! ? Thank you and best wishes, Raja -- Raja Rosenhagen Assistant Professor of Philosophy Ashoka University raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in ? _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Thu Apr 18 20:34:56 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 20:34:56 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fw:__Anek=C4=81ntav=C4=81da_-_suggestions=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear friends, Though concerned with much more than Anek?ntav?da, some will find the bibliography by Patrick S. O'Donnell to be a useful reference source for this and other matters relating to Jain Studies: https://www.academia.edu/34447581/Jainism_a_basic_bibliography Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jeffery Long via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 2:57:52 PM To: indology at list.indology.info; raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Anek?ntav?da - suggestions? Dear Raja (if I may), Hopefully, this reply will be of general interest to the entire list. Anek?ntav?da is a topic that is of particular interest to me, so I am happy to share this list. Probably the best book on this topic is: Bimal Krishna Matilal, The Central Philosophy of Jainism (Anek?ntav?da) (Ahmedabad: L.D. Institute of Indology, 1981) I also recommend: Satkari Mookerjee, The Jaina Philosophy of Non-Absolutism: A Critical Study of Anek?ntav?da (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1978) Y.J. Padmarajiah, A Comparative Study of the Jaina Theories of Reality and Knowledge (Bombay: Jain Sahitya Vikas Mandal, 1963) An excellent recent work which delves into the origins of anek?ntav?da is: Piotr Balcerowicz, Early Asceticism in Jainism: ?jivikism and Jainism(London: Routledge, 2016) The following article by John Cort provides a great critique of the frequently asserted claim that anek?ntav?da historically functions as a philosophy of 'intellectual ahi?s?': John E. Cort, ??Intellectual Ahimsa? Revisited: Jain Tolerance and Intolerance of Others? (Philosophy East and West Volume 50, Number 3 July 2000 324-347). Chapters 5 and 6 of my Jainism: An Introduction (London: IB Tauris, 2009) present, respectively, historical and philosophical analyses of anek?ntav?da and the related doctrines, nayav?da and sy?dvada These analyses, in turn, are based on my 2000 doctoral dissertation from the University of Chicago, Plurality and Relativity: Whitehead, Jainism, and the Reconstruction of Religious Pluralism. Paul Dundas' The Jains (London: Routledge, 2002?second edition) and Padmanabh S. Jaini's The Jaina Path of Purification (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1979) have relevant sections on anek?ntav?da and sy?dv?da. I also recommend Tara Sethia's 2004 edited volume, Anek?nta and Ahi?s? (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 2004). This is by no means a complete list, but it is a good start. I hope you find it useful! With best wishes, Jeff Dr. Jeffery D. Long Professor of Religion and Asian Studies Elizabethtown College Elizabethtown, PA https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Theological, Ethical, and Philosophical Lexington Books "One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." (Holy Mother Sarada Devi) "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan) On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 12:21:57 PM EDT, Raja Rosenhagen via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear all, Greetings from Ashoka University! I am primarily a philosopher, but have a background in Indian Studies (especially Hindi and Sanskrit). As I am currently compiling a reading list on Anek?ntav?da, I would love to receive your suggestions. Indeed, every suggestion will be very much appreciated ? either via the list (if you think it is of interest to many) or via personal email (see below)! Thank you and best wishes, Raja -- Raja Rosenhagen Assistant Professor of Philosophy Ashoka University raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 20:51:37 2019 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 22:51:37 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Luis_O._Gomez_Sukh=C4=81vat=C4=AB-vy=C5=ABha-s=C5=ABtra_translations?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My copy is in my office, closed for the holiday, so I can't verify all of this with my physical copy, but: ??????????????? ???????2011? Bonbun Mury?juky? Bonbun Amidaky? k?tei, Kyoto: H?z?kan 2011. 978-4-8318-7075-9 Here's an Amazon Japan link: https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%A2%B5%E6%96%87%E7%84%A1%E9%87%8F%E5%AF%BF%E7%B5%8C%E3%83%BB%E6%A2%B5%E6%96%87%E9%98%BF%E5%BC%A5%E9%99%80%E7%B5%8C-%E8%97%A4%E7%94%B0-%E5%AE%8F%E9%81%94/dp/4831870757 The book contains editions of both sutras. Jonathan On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 9:56 PM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > Thanks for this information, that Luis himself seems to have had no plans > to publish whatever he had accomplished. His Preface to the 1996 book gave > the impression that much of the writing of the other two projected volumes > was already done. Besides saying that he had prepared two different > translations of each text, a free one and technical one (p. xi), he also > wrote (p. xiv): > > "In the introductions to the technical translations, I explain in more > detail what I mean by 'free' and 'technical.' There I also explain the > theoretical justification for this distinction and in what sense this is to > a great extent a working or pragmatic distinction." > > He indicated that his technical translations were heavily annotated. It > would be a shame if all this work was lost forever. > > I was glad to hear of your own work on the smaller sutra. Please do let us > all know when you publish this. Of course, no rush, but please live long > enough to complete it (unlike the lamented Luis Gomez)! > > You mentioned the Sanskrit materials published by Fujita. I wonder if you > are referring to the corrections he published in 1975, both to the larger > sutra edited by Atsuuji Ashikaga, and to the smaller sutra edited by F. Max > Muller and Bunyiu Nanjio. Or did he also publish complete editions? I only > know of his published corrections. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:10 AM Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> Dear David >> As far as I know--and I tried to find out several times--Luis himself had >> no plans to publish whatever he had accomplished, despite my own entreaties >> and offers to help. Moreover, while I do not have direct contact with his >> widow, it is my understanding that access to the materials he left behind >> is not easy. >> As far as the smaller s?tra goes, however, I myself will publish >> something (let's not get into my promising a date!) which will try to take >> into account all available materials, including a reconsideration of the >> Sanskrit materials published by Fujita who, however, actually normalized >> his texts to a degree that perhaps slightly misrepresents the tradition as >> available. >> When I have something, I'll let you know. >> Best, Jonathan >> >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:08 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> As many of you know, English translations by the late Luis O. Gomez of >>> both the shorter and longer Sukh?vat?-vy?ha-s?tras, from Sanskrit, and >>> again from Chinese, were published in 1996 by University of Hawai'i Press >>> in the book titled, The Land of Bliss. These were what he called his "free" >>> translations of these texts. Two more volumes were to come out, giving his >>> technical translations of these texts, heavily annotated. Does anyone know >>> if these translations were completed? If they still exist? If they will >>> ever be published? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> David Reigle >>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 18 21:55:31 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 14:55:31 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Luis_O._Gomez_Sukh=C4=81vat=C4=AB-vy=C5=ABha-s=C5=ABtra_translations?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a colleague of Luis Gomez at Michigan, I occasionally participated in his translation projects. What I remember of his practice of multiple translations is that there was to be a translation for scholars that was technical, very close to the text and annotated. This assumed that the reader also understood Sanskrit and was able to understand technical aspects of the text, vocabulary, grammar, variants etc. The other kind of translation was intended for a wider general readership that had no access to the original Sanskrit text and did not have specific expertise in Buddhism. What could a common reader get out of a Sanskrit text? Not everything, but indeed something of understandable content, something that would be readable to an English reader with no background of Sanskrit or Buddhism. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 1:53 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > My copy is in my office, closed for the holiday, so I can't verify all of > this with my physical copy, but: > > ??????????????? ???????2011? > Bonbun Mury?juky? Bonbun Amidaky? k?tei, Kyoto: H?z?kan 2011. > 978-4-8318-7075-9 > Here's an Amazon Japan link: > https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%A2%B5%E6%96%87%E7%84%A1%E9%87%8F%E5%AF%BF%E7%B5%8C%E3%83%BB%E6%A2%B5%E6%96%87%E9%98%BF%E5%BC%A5%E9%99%80%E7%B5%8C-%E8%97%A4%E7%94%B0-%E5%AE%8F%E9%81%94/dp/4831870757 > > The book contains editions of both sutras. > > Jonathan > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 9:56 PM David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > >> Dear Jonathan, >> >> Thanks for this information, that Luis himself seems to have had no plans >> to publish whatever he had accomplished. His Preface to the 1996 book gave >> the impression that much of the writing of the other two projected volumes >> was already done. Besides saying that he had prepared two different >> translations of each text, a free one and technical one (p. xi), he also >> wrote (p. xiv): >> >> "In the introductions to the technical translations, I explain in more >> detail what I mean by 'free' and 'technical.' There I also explain the >> theoretical justification for this distinction and in what sense this is to >> a great extent a working or pragmatic distinction." >> >> He indicated that his technical translations were heavily annotated. It >> would be a shame if all this work was lost forever. >> >> I was glad to hear of your own work on the smaller sutra. Please do let >> us all know when you publish this. Of course, no rush, but please live long >> enough to complete it (unlike the lamented Luis Gomez)! >> >> You mentioned the Sanskrit materials published by Fujita. I wonder if you >> are referring to the corrections he published in 1975, both to the larger >> sutra edited by Atsuuji Ashikaga, and to the smaller sutra edited by F. Max >> Muller and Bunyiu Nanjio. Or did he also publish complete editions? I only >> know of his published corrections. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:10 AM Jonathan Silk wrote: >> >>> Dear David >>> As far as I know--and I tried to find out several times--Luis himself >>> had no plans to publish whatever he had accomplished, despite my own >>> entreaties and offers to help. Moreover, while I do not have direct contact >>> with his widow, it is my understanding that access to the materials he left >>> behind is not easy. >>> As far as the smaller s?tra goes, however, I myself will publish >>> something (let's not get into my promising a date!) which will try to take >>> into account all available materials, including a reconsideration of the >>> Sanskrit materials published by Fujita who, however, actually normalized >>> his texts to a degree that perhaps slightly misrepresents the tradition as >>> available. >>> When I have something, I'll let you know. >>> Best, Jonathan >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:08 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> As many of you know, English translations by the late Luis O. Gomez of >>>> both the shorter and longer Sukh?vat?-vy?ha-s?tras, from Sanskrit, and >>>> again from Chinese, were published in 1996 by University of Hawai'i Press >>>> in the book titled, The Land of Bliss. These were what he called his "free" >>>> translations of these texts. Two more volumes were to come out, giving his >>>> technical translations of these texts, heavily annotated. Does anyone know >>>> if these translations were completed? If they still exist? If they will >>>> ever be published? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> David Reigle >>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >> > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 00:59:41 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 20:59:41 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_mah=C4=81lak=E1=B9=A3mya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADakastotram?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm having finger trouble today :-} I meant to say: I'm looking for variations in the mah?lak?mya??akastotram in popular books of collections of stotras. If any members have books of collections of stotras with the mah?lak?mya??akastotram in it and could scan the page with the hymn and the title page and send it to me, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Harry Spier On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 8:55 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > I'm looking for variations in the mah?lak?mya??akastotram in popular books > of collections of stotras. > > If any list members have books of collections of stotras that have the > mah?lak?mya??akastotram in them. and could scan the page with that hymn > and the title page and it to me I'd appreciate it. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 00:55:23 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 19 20:55:23 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_mah=C4=81lak=E1=B9=A3mya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADakastotram?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I'm looking for variations in the mah?lak?mya??akastotram in popular books of collections of stotras. If any list members have books of collections of stotras that have the mah?lak?mya??akastotram in them. and could scan the page with that hymn and the title page and it to me I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 00:55:38 2019 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 09:55:38 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Luis_O._Gomez_Sukh=C4=81vat=C4=AB-vy=C5=ABha-s=C5=ABtra_translations?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I saw a manuscript of a heavily annotated version of Prof. Gomez's translation of the Larger Sukh?vat?vy?ha around 20(?) years ago. As far as I know, Prof. Gomez was translating the text on the request of J?do Shinsh? Otaniha (?????). As being a member of this school, I was asked to go to Chicago and assist him, which I declined. Much later the director of the school showed me a copy of Prof. Gomez's annotated translation and asked me to evaluate it ??? according to my vague memory, the director was not very happy with too much detailed notes in it. When the book was published, I was surprised to find that it differed very much from the version which I saw. Therefore, it is possible a copy of a heavily annotated version exists somewhere in Japan. With best regards, Seishi Karashima (currently Numata visiting professor at UC Berkeley) 2019?4?19?(?) 6:56 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > As a colleague of Luis Gomez at Michigan, I occasionally participated in > his translation projects. What I remember of his practice of multiple > translations is that there was to be a translation for scholars that was > technical, very close to the text and annotated. This assumed that the > reader also understood Sanskrit and was able to understand technical > aspects of the text, vocabulary, grammar, variants etc. The other kind of > translation was intended for a wider general readership that had no access > to the original Sanskrit text and did not have specific expertise in > Buddhism. What could a common reader get out of a Sanskrit text? Not > everything, but indeed something of understandable content, something that > would be readable to an English reader with no background of Sanskrit or > Buddhism. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 1:53 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> My copy is in my office, closed for the holiday, so I can't verify all of >> this with my physical copy, but: >> >> ??????????????? ???????2011? >> Bonbun Mury?juky? Bonbun Amidaky? k?tei, Kyoto: H?z?kan 2011. >> 978-4-8318-7075-9 >> Here's an Amazon Japan link: >> https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%A2%B5%E6%96%87%E7%84%A1%E9%87%8F%E5%AF%BF%E7%B5%8C%E3%83%BB%E6%A2%B5%E6%96%87%E9%98%BF%E5%BC%A5%E9%99%80%E7%B5%8C-%E8%97%A4%E7%94%B0-%E5%AE%8F%E9%81%94/dp/4831870757 >> >> The book contains editions of both sutras. >> >> Jonathan >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 9:56 PM David and Nancy Reigle < >> dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jonathan, >>> >>> Thanks for this information, that Luis himself seems to have had no >>> plans to publish whatever he had accomplished. His Preface to the 1996 book >>> gave the impression that much of the writing of the other two projected >>> volumes was already done. Besides saying that he had prepared two different >>> translations of each text, a free one and technical one (p. xi), he also >>> wrote (p. xiv): >>> >>> "In the introductions to the technical translations, I explain in more >>> detail what I mean by 'free' and 'technical.' There I also explain the >>> theoretical justification for this distinction and in what sense this is to >>> a great extent a working or pragmatic distinction." >>> >>> He indicated that his technical translations were heavily annotated. It >>> would be a shame if all this work was lost forever. >>> >>> I was glad to hear of your own work on the smaller sutra. Please do let >>> us all know when you publish this. Of course, no rush, but please live long >>> enough to complete it (unlike the lamented Luis Gomez)! >>> >>> You mentioned the Sanskrit materials published by Fujita. I wonder if >>> you are referring to the corrections he published in 1975, both to the >>> larger sutra edited by Atsuuji Ashikaga, and to the smaller sutra edited by >>> F. Max Muller and Bunyiu Nanjio. Or did he also publish complete editions? >>> I only know of his published corrections. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> David Reigle >>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:10 AM Jonathan Silk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear David >>>> As far as I know--and I tried to find out several times--Luis himself >>>> had no plans to publish whatever he had accomplished, despite my own >>>> entreaties and offers to help. Moreover, while I do not have direct contact >>>> with his widow, it is my understanding that access to the materials he left >>>> behind is not easy. >>>> As far as the smaller s?tra goes, however, I myself will publish >>>> something (let's not get into my promising a date!) which will try to take >>>> into account all available materials, including a reconsideration of the >>>> Sanskrit materials published by Fujita who, however, actually normalized >>>> his texts to a degree that perhaps slightly misrepresents the tradition as >>>> available. >>>> When I have something, I'll let you know. >>>> Best, Jonathan >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 9:08 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As many of you know, English translations by the late Luis O. Gomez of >>>>> both the shorter and longer Sukh?vat?-vy?ha-s?tras, from Sanskrit, >>>>> and again from Chinese, were published in 1996 by University of Hawai'i >>>>> Press in the book titled, The Land of Bliss. These were what he called his >>>>> "free" translations of these texts. Two more volumes were to come out, >>>>> giving his technical translations of these texts, heavily annotated. Does >>>>> anyone know if these translations were completed? If they still exist? If >>>>> they will ever be published? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> David Reigle >>>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> J. Silk >>>> Leiden University >>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>>> The Netherlands >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at >>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrivara at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 08:50:21 2019 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 14:20:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <89AA1508-E34A-4576-9333-42CBA2B2F19E@gmail.com> Governing Council, I second the opinion of Simon Brodbeck. The posting of Jaydeep was just a continuation of the thread on the gender issue. He just brought some issues objectively without any sort of personal objectionable comments/allegations on any one. The Governing council may disclose if anyone has raised any complaint on his posting. Even if such complaint exists, in a democratic set up, it is appropriate to give a notice and to provide with an opportunity to hear from the person whose posting is found objectionable. Without any such proceedings and justifications, taking action or decision may set a wrong precedence. Kindly revisit the decision. Warm regards, Shrinivasa Varakhedi > On 17-Apr-2019, at 10:24 PM, Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Philipp, > > I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much to the point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one could find it defamatory would be by confusing correlation with causation. To those who have witnessed this forum over a period of several years, the idea that the committee had ?no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list? may seem far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of gender equality not be made by the committee proceeding in this way, but the committee may be seen to be actively hindering the making of such progress. I may be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s previous contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this list, may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to overreact in this instance. One might also wonder whether the committee?s decision is somehow connected to its current male to female ratio (4:1 following the unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). > > Yours collegially, > Simon Brodbeck > Cardiff University > > ---------------------------------- > From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info ] On Behalf Of Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY > Sent: 17 April 2019 08:46 > To: Indology > > Cc: jbagchee at gmail.com ; Indology Committee > > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY > > Dear Members of INDOLOGY, > The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a temporary or permanent removal from the list.? (http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/ ). > > The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list. > > With best regards, > > Philipp Maas > > Governing Committee Member on duty > __________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at Fri Apr 19 09:48:00 2019 From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 11:48:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: <89AA1508-E34A-4576-9333-42CBA2B2F19E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b66ddcf-b241-9511-999e-d5205a43f82b@oeaw.ac.at> I respectfully disagree as to the assessment of Joydeep Bagchee's posting. The posting contained several personal attacks on individual scholars, and it did in this respect clearly violate the list's guidelines (http://indology.info/email/email-const/). One can certainly criticize certain hiring practices at universities (though I fail to see how this would be a specifically Indological topic), as Joydeep Bagchee did, but this can surely be done in a constructive manner and without ad-hominem attacks. With best regards, Birgit Kellner Am 19.04.19 um 10:50 schrieb Shrinivasa Varakhedi via INDOLOGY: > Governing Council, > > I second the opinion of Simon Brodbeck. The posting of Jaydeep was > just a continuation of the thread on the gender issue. He just brought > some issues objectively without any sort of personal objectionable > comments/allegations on any one. The Governing council may disclose if > anyone has raised any complaint on his posting. Even if such complaint > exists, in a democratic set up, it is appropriate to give a notice and > to provide with an opportunity to hear from the person whose posting > is found objectionable. Without any such proceedings and > justifications, taking action or decision may set a wrong precedence. > Kindly revisit the decision. > > Warm regards, > Shrinivasa Varakhedi > >> On 17-Apr-2019, at 10:24 PM, Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY >> > wrote: >> >> Dear Philipp, >> I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much >> to the point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one >> could find it defamatory would be by confusing correlation with >> causation. To those who have witnessed this forum over a period of >> several years, the idea that the committee had ?no choicebut to >> remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from the list? may seem >> far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of gender equality not >> be made by the committee proceeding in this way, butthe committee may >> be seen to be actively hindering the making of such progress. I may >> be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s previous >> contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this >> list, may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to >> overreact in this instance. One might also wonder whether the >> committee?s decision is somehow connected to its current male to >> female ratio (4:1 following the unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). >> Yours collegially, >> Simon Brodbeck >> Cardiff University >> ---------------------------------- >> *From:*INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info]*On >> Behalf Of*Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY >> *Sent:*17 April 2019 08:46 >> *To:*Indology > > >> *Cc:*jbagchee at gmail.com ; Indology >> Committee > > >> *Subject:*[INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY >> Dear Members of INDOLOGY, >> The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the >> header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely >> violates the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that >> ?In particular, personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude >> language, and off-topic postings are violations of the list rules. >> The definition and understanding of what constitutes improper use of >> the forum shall be a matter for the Governing Committee. [...] The >> Governing Committee may penalize personal attacks or defamatory >> speech directed against other list members with a temporary or >> permanent removal from the list.? >> (http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/ >> ). >> >> The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the >> INDOLOGY Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep >> Bagchee permanently from the list. >> With best regards, >> Philipp Maas >> Governing Committee Member on duty >> >> __________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where >> you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- ---- Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner Director Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 A-1020 Vienna Austria Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410 http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 10:45:29 2019 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 06:45:29 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: <5b66ddcf-b241-9511-999e-d5205a43f82b@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am really perplexed as to why some members of this list found Dr. Bagchee's post "much to the point" and "objective," while others (including myself) just as clearly read it as violating the rules of the forum against ad hominem attacks against scholars. We are supposed to make our livings by reading texts. What is going on here? The suggestion that we democratically discuss every instance where the clearly-enunciated rules of the forum are violated will lead, inevitably, to further instances of harrassment and defamation on the list, since those who are inclined to conduct themselves in that way will only need an opportunity and a halfway convincing justification for their remarks. Some of us may think that there is not much to lose by allowing list members to talk about the personal and professional lives of colleagues, who are not members of the list and who can therefore not address the insinuations, distortions, and name-calling in their remarks. Some may think that appeals to "respect," "civility," and "professionalism" are simply ways of silencing people with whom we have differences. I disagree. It is unacceptable to tolerate ad hominem attacks on this forum. Andrew On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 5:48 AM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I respectfully disagree as to the assessment of Joydeep Bagchee's posting. > The posting contained several personal attacks on individual scholars, and > it did in this respect clearly violate the list's guidelines ( > http://indology.info/email/email-const/). One can certainly criticize > certain hiring practices at universities (though I fail to see how this > would be a specifically Indological topic), as Joydeep Bagchee did, but > this can surely be done in a constructive manner and without ad-hominem > attacks. > > With best regards, > > Birgit Kellner > Am 19.04.19 um 10:50 schrieb Shrinivasa Varakhedi via INDOLOGY: > > Governing Council, > > I second the opinion of Simon Brodbeck. The posting of Jaydeep was just a > continuation of the thread on the gender issue. He just brought some issues > objectively without any sort of personal objectionable comments/allegations > on any one. The Governing council may disclose if anyone has raised any > complaint on his posting. Even if such complaint exists, in a democratic > set up, it is appropriate to give a notice and to provide with an > opportunity to hear from the person whose posting is found objectionable. > Without any such proceedings and justifications, taking action or decision > may set a wrong precedence. Kindly revisit the decision. > > Warm regards, > Shrinivasa Varakhedi > > On 17-Apr-2019, at 10:24 PM, Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Philipp, > > I object to this move. Bagchee?s post was interesting and very much to the > point of our recent discussion, and I think the main way one could find it > defamatory would be by confusing correlation with causation. To those who > have witnessed this forum over a period of several years, the idea that the > committee had ?no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee permanently from > the list? may seem far-fetched. Not only will progress in matters of > gender equality not be made by the committee proceeding in this way, but the > committee may be seen to be actively hindering the making of such progress. > I may be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that Bagchee?s previous > contributions, which have been famously abominated by some on this list, > may have prejudiced the committee against him and caused it to overreact in > this instance. One might also wonder whether the committee?s decision is > somehow connected to its current male to female ratio (4:1 following the > unfortunate resignation of Dr Truschke). > > Yours collegially, > Simon Brodbeck > Cardiff University > > ---------------------------------- > *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info > ] *On Behalf Of *Philipp Maas via > INDOLOGY > *Sent:* 17 April 2019 08:46 > *To:* Indology > *Cc:* jbagchee at gmail.com; Indology Committee < > indology-owner at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY > > Dear Members of INDOLOGY, > The post that Joydeep Bagchee sent to this list on 16 April under the > header ?Re: [INDOLOGY] Response to Shrinivasa Varakhedi? severely violates > the rules for usage of the INDOLOGY list, which state that ?In particular, > personal attacks of an ad-hominem nature, rude language, and off-topic > postings are violations of the list rules. The definition and understanding > of what constitutes improper use of the forum shall be a matter for the > Governing Committee. [...] The Governing Committee may penalize personal > attacks or defamatory speech directed against other list members with a > temporary or permanent removal from the list.? ( > http://www.indology.info/email/email-const/ > > ). > > The above mentioned severe violation of the Guidelines left the INDOLOGY > Governing Committee with no choice but to remove Joydeep Bagchee > permanently from the list. > > With best regards, > > Philipp Maas > > Governing Committee Member on duty > > __________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > ---- > Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner > Director > Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia > Austrian Academy of Sciences > Hollandstrasse 11-13/2 > A-1020 Vienna > Austria > Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420 > Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Apr 19 10:53:36 2019 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 12:53:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: <5b66ddcf-b241-9511-999e-d5205a43f82b@oeaw.ac.at> Message-ID: <20190419125336.Horde.1Lnuk-I_GrtGmYLWypIWJgM@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> I absolutely second the postings of Arlo Griffith, Walter Slaje, Birgit Kellner and Andrew Ollett. We should read Joydeep Bagchee's message as professionals, namely as philologists, and thus cannot but regard his posting as full of inacceptable insinuations. With best regards, Roland Steimer From racleach at googlemail.com Fri Apr 19 12:17:13 2019 From: racleach at googlemail.com (Robert Leach) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 13:17:13 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Anek=C4=81ntav=C4=81da_-_suggestions=3F?= In-Reply-To: <04ba01d4f470$655c0170$30140450$@ashoka.edu.in> Message-ID: Dear Raja, A couple of perhaps obvious suggestions (and apologies if they've already been mentioned): The volume *Ahi?s?, Anek?nta and Jainism* edited by Tara Sethia (2004?). And Johannes Bronkhorst has written (at least?) two papers on anek?ntav?da: "Jainism's First Heretic and the Origin of anek?ntav?da" in *Jainism and Early Buddhism: Essays in Honour of Padmanabh S. Jaini* edited by Olle Qvarnstr?m, 2003. and "Anek?ntav?da, the central philosophy of ?j?vikism?" *International Journal of Jaina Studies *2013. Best wishes, Robert On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:21 PM Raja Rosenhagen via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > Greetings from Ashoka University! > > I am primarily a philosopher, but have a background in Indian Studies > (especially Hindi and Sanskrit). > > As I am currently compiling a reading list on Anek?ntav?da, I would love > to receive your suggestions. > > > > Indeed, every suggestion will be very much appreciated ? either via the > list (if you think it is of interest to many) or via personal email (see > below)! > > > > Thank you and best wishes, > > Raja > > -- > > Raja Rosenhagen > > Assistant Professor of Philosophy > > Ashoka University > > raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 19 13:22:44 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 06:22:44 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????????? ???? ????????????? ???: ? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ????? ??????? Krishna adores Radha and Radha adores Krishna. Adoring each other, may they show the way to bliss. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shyamr at yorku.ca Fri Apr 19 17:31:45 2019 From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 13:31:45 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Joydeep Bagchee's membership to INDOLOGY In-Reply-To: <20190419125336.Horde.1Lnuk-I_GrtGmYLWypIWJgM@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <8b4fbcc9-00d2-7659-6323-09fddf155ba1@yorku.ca> Hello all, I'm not surprised that some members of this list conflate being professional with being a philologist (see below), as though that's all Indology could be. I'm not surprised as I've written on this for some time, and there are cultural roots to this focus on language as the source of knowledge about an area of study. That too I've written on. And for the record, I'm not a philologist. I'm a philosopher.? I suppose that some would think that I don't belong on this list. At least one member publicly claimed as much when I asked a question not too long ago.? That member was not removed from the list, though their attack on me was ad hominem. And one of the things that I teach, as a philosopher, are courses on logic and critical thinking. Ad hominem arguments fall under the heading of informal fallacies. An ad hominem argument is not an argument where one criticizes a person as instantiating something generally objectionable. An ad hominem argument is where you denigrate a person, and thereby their credibility as a witness, or reasoner. In philosophy we are routinely pressured to provide examples of a more general point, and what Bagchee did was just that. Of course, you could dispute the general point he was making, or the relevance of the specific examples (the examples could be false or misrepresented), but it seems to me that excluding him from the list simply because he provided such examples for a general point he was making is strange. For even if he didn't name names, we could have understood what examples from professional Indology fall under the general point he was making. I myself wouldn't have made the argument. But I have noticed for much time that Indology is a hostile place for philosophy and the practices of philosophers. Any time ethical questions come up on this list, they are shot down as irrelevant to Indology. If Indology excludes philosophy, then yes, talking about ethical questions would be out of bounds---and talking about examples of a general ethical point would also be a distraction from Indology. But if Indology excludes philosophy it's strange that so much attention is given to the history of Indian philosophy by Indologists and that they are routinely called upon to referee peer reviewed articles on Indian philosophy. Best wishes, Shyam Shyam Ranganathan Department of Philosophy York Center for Asian Research, York University, Toronto On 19/04/2019 6:53 a.m., Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY wrote: > I absolutely second the postings of Arlo Griffith, Walter Slaje, > Birgit Kellner and Andrew Ollett. We should read Joydeep Bagchee's > message as professionals, namely as philologists, and thus cannot but > regard his posting as full of inacceptable insinuations. > > With best regards, > > Roland Steimer > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) -- Shyam Ranganathan Department of Philosophy York Center for Asian Research York University, Toronto shyam-ranganathan.info /Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation / /The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics / /Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras /?(Translation, Edition and Commentary) /Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin Concepts / Full List, Publications -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 03:23:33 2019 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 19 23:23:33 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problem searching Indology archives Message-ID: I've just tried to search the Indology archives. When I click on any of the search results I get this error message. Not Found The requested URL /pipermail/ indology_list.indology.info/2008-July/126472.html was not found on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 08:28:57 2019 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 19 13:58:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] ellora paintings Message-ID: Dear List members I am searching for reference material on paintings in Ellora caves. I came across Ellora paintings by Pa??har?n?tha Vish?upanta R?na?e. Is it available as pdf? Can you suggest any other work on this subject? regards Rupali Mokashi *http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 20 13:16:14 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 19 06:16:14 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????????: ? ????? ??? ???????????????? ? ???????????? ??????? Blessed are the cowherds, the land of Vraja and the cowherd maids, and so are we blessed remembering them and that Delight of the Cowherds. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Apr 21 13:36:53 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 19 06:36:53 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ? ??????? ? ??????? ?????????? ? ?? ???? ? ????? ??? ????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? Our wealth is not gold, jewels or pearls. Blessed are we that we have found the great wealth in the form of Krishna. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 16:30:49 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 19 22:00:49 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication details of Anugama in Navya Nyaya Message-ID: Dear all I am interested to know is there a book or research papers published by D.C Guha author of Navya Nyaya system of logic in which he has mentioned about a separate treatise called Anugama in Navya Nyaya. Any pointers will be highly appreciated. Kindly help. Thanks and regards KP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Sun Apr 21 18:48:03 2019 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 19 20:48:03 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Fwd: An Important announcement from BORI Message-ID: <9eb8dd4944c37eb0b7bf7cf4461500f9@imapproxy.vub.ac.be> Dear list, I supposed this announcement is some kind of joke, for I received this mail on 14 April morning, while the deadline for submission is 15 April 2019. Or is there a complementary information I don't have, like a postponement of the deadline ? Best regards, Dr Jean Michel Delire, Lecturer on Science and civilization of India at the University of Brussels -------- Message original -------- Objet: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: An Important announcement from BORI Date: 14.04.2019 08:46 De: Shrinivasa Varakhedi via INDOLOGY ?: "" R?pondre ?: Shrinivasa Varakhedi For info to the list :? ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: SECRETARY BORI INDIA Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 11:25 AM Subject: Fwd: An Important announcement from BORI To: Coordinator at BORI BHANDARKAR ORIENTAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE, PUNE (INDIA) ? ACADEMIC DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME SUPPORTED BY INFOSYS FOUNDATION ? ANNOUNCEMENT ? Various academic programmes have been instituted at the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (BORI), thanks to the generous funding received from the Infosys Foundation for specialized research in thrust areas such as ? 1.????Indological Studies? 2.????Buddhist Studies 3.????The study of India?s cultural relations with other Asian countries in the ancient and early medieval period, and 4.????The comparative study of religions. ? An announcement of various positions has been made on the website of the BORI. The same is being made on national and international internet platforms and is being sent to scholars in India and abroad. ? Curriculum Vitae along with detailed project proposals shall be invited from reputed scholars. ? Interested scholars are requested to send a letter of interest to the Honorary Secretary of the BORI expressing his / her desire to conduct research at the BORI, together with a current CV and detailed research project. Names of eligible scholars may also be suggested by others with their CVs and detailed research projects. The format of the research project proposal is also available on BORI?s website.? ? The Search-cum-Selection Committee is authorised to nominate a scholar and possesses the right to accept or reject any name and/or research project. ? All other details regarding remuneration, logistics, etc. are being uploaded on the website of BORI and have also been attached herewith. ? For more information and queries, please contact: -- Honorary Secretary Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 812, Shivaji Nagar, Chiplunkar Road, Near?ILS Law College,?Pune 411004 (India) Phone:?+91-20-25656932 -- warm regards, Shrinivasa Varakhedi Vice-chancellor? Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sanskrit University Ramtek, Nagpur, Maharatshtra ------------------------------ (Recipient of Presidents Award) Professor in Shastra and Former Dean (Academics) Karnataka Samskrita University, Bengaluru - 560018 Mobile : +91-94853-01353 Ph Off : ?+91-7722011353 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 22 01:02:32 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 19 18:02:32 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] suggestions? Message-ID: I am looking for some English language book or article that discusses how passages from the Bhagavadg?t? or Upani?ads have been subjected to multiple *padacchedas* and interpretations by different commentators. I have most of the Sanskrit commentaries, but I need to provide some reading materials for a few readers who are interested in this phenomenon, but don't read Sanskrit commentaries. Any suggestions? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Apr 22 01:15:32 2019 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 19 01:15:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, I recall that Arvind Sharma once wrote a book entitled "The Hindu Gita" that explored the various commentarial traditions. https://www.amazon.com/Hindu-Gita-Classical-Interpretations-Bhagavadgita/dp/0812690133 However, I haven't looked at it for at least 20 years and I do not recall it well enough to say whether it may clarify the question you are raising. Its primary concern is to introduce the philosophical standpoint of the different commentators. Another work that juxtaposes aspects of the content of the Sankara and Ramanuja commentaries Is Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad's https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Self-Human-V-PUBLISHERS/dp/9386606364/ref=dp_ob_title_bk But I am not at all sure that either of these titles addresses directly the issue of varying padacchedas. It is possible that Van Buitenen's book on the Ramanuja commentary on the Gita may be worth consulting as well. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 8:02:32 PM To: Indology; Bharatiya Vidvat parishad Subject: [INDOLOGY] suggestions? I am looking for some English language book or article that discusses how passages from the Bhagavadg?t? or Upani?ads have been subjected to multiple padacchedas and interpretations by different commentators. I have most of the Sanskrit commentaries, but I need to provide some reading materials for a few readers who are interested in this phenomenon, but don't read Sanskrit commentaries. Any suggestions? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de Mon Apr 22 05:38:09 2019 From: anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de (Anna Aurelia Esposito) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 19 07:38:09 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Anek=C4=81ntav=C4=81da_-_suggestions=3F?= In-Reply-To: <04ba01d4f470$655c0170$30140450$@ashoka.edu.in> Message-ID: <20190422073809.Horde.Qhdl57h_idRhdi6FFtnYc8_@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> Dear Colleagues, a quite interesting new publication focussing on anek?ntav?da as an important tool for intercultural and interreligious encounter is: Barbato, Melanie. 2017. Jain Approaches to Plurality: Identity as Dialogue. Brill: Leiden. https://brill.com/view/title/34380?lang=en Best wishes, Anna Aurelia Esposito Zitat von Raja Rosenhagen via INDOLOGY : > Dear all, > > > > Greetings from Ashoka University! > > I am primarily a philosopher, but have a background in Indian Studies > (especially Hindi and Sanskrit). > > As I am currently compiling a reading list on Anek?ntav?da, I would love to > receive your suggestions. > > > > Indeed, every suggestion will be very much appreciated ? either via the list > (if you think it is of interest to many) or via personal email (see below)! > > > > Thank you and best wishes, > > Raja > > -- > > Raja Rosenhagen > > Assistant Professor of Philosophy > > Ashoka University > > raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in ********** PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito ********** Universit?t W?rzburg Lehrstuhl f?r Indologie Philosophiegeb?ude, Zi. 8U6 Am Hubland 97074 W?rzburg Germany Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512 ********** http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito ********** From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 11:47:28 2019 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 19 17:17:28 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Completion of Unicode Devanagari fonts with complete Vedic accents Message-ID: Dear all I am happy to announce about the completion of Vani Vilas fonts(Even these are created originally in Nirnaya Sagar Type foundry metal fonts and purchased by Vani Vilas press for their publication). The fonts are available to purchase shortly with a very nominal value of 1,500 INR for 3 font families ( the other 2 fonts are published shortly). The website and details of the purchase will be informed soon. No restrictions on user license. PS If anyone is interested to support financially please let me know. I need 45 members who can donate 15,000 INR to reach my breakeven point. Or how much ever possible. So that I can remove all the restrictions of user license and distribute for a very nominal price. [image: image.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ???.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 255030 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 22 13:33:04 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 19 06:33:04 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ? ?????? ?? ????? ???????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? Leaving the whole world behind, I rush to Gokula with my mind. My heart is excited seeing that beautiful Delight of the Yadus. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 19:16:13 2019 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 19 19:16:13 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Anek=C4=81ntav=C4=81da_-_suggestions=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20190422073809.Horde.Qhdl57h_idRhdi6FFtnYc8_@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> Message-ID: <712000117.4035553.1555960573102@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Anna, Thank you for mentioning this excellent book. I am embarrassed to have left it off my list. Mental lapse! All the best,Jeffery Long Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, April 22, 2019, 1:38 AM, Anna Aurelia Esposito via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Colleagues, a quite interesting new publication focussing on anek?ntav?da as an? important tool for intercultural and interreligious encounter is: Barbato, Melanie. 2017. Jain Approaches to Plurality: Identity as? Dialogue. Brill: Leiden. https://brill.com/view/title/34380?lang=en Best wishes, Anna Aurelia Esposito Zitat von Raja Rosenhagen via INDOLOGY : > Dear all, > > > > Greetings from Ashoka University! > > I am primarily a philosopher, but have a background in Indian Studies > (especially Hindi and Sanskrit). > > As I am currently compiling a reading list on Anek?ntav?da, I would love to > receive your suggestions. > > > > Indeed, every suggestion will be very much appreciated ? either via the list > (if you think it is of interest to many) or via personal email (see below)! > > > > Thank you and best wishes, > > Raja > > -- > > Raja Rosenhagen > > Assistant Professor of Philosophy > > Ashoka University > > raja.rosenhagen at ashoka.edu.in ********** PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito ********** Universit?t W?rzburg Lehrstuhl f?r Indologie Philosophiegeb?ude, Zi. 8U6 Am Hubland 97074 W?rzburg Germany Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512 ********** http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito ********** _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 23 13:22:21 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 06:22:21 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ??: ? ???? ????? ???????? ??????????? ???????? ??????? Having arrived at Gokula quickly, my mind stopped there. A fount of honey flows here. Why should it go anywhere else? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 14:35:23 2019 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 14:35:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1864023563.4457387.1556030123759@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Madhav, There is a good, clear book by Swami Tapasyananda from Advaita Ashrama called Bhakti Schools of Ved?nta. ?It nicely lays out the various non-Advaitic interpretations of the prasth?natray?. ?It does not get to the level of detail of the padacchedas, but is a good introduction to the varied interpretations to which these texts have been subject. I hope this is helpful! All the best,Jeff Dr. Jeffery D. Long Professor of Religion and Asian Studies Elizabethtown CollegeElizabethtown, PA https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong Series Editor,?Explorations in Indic Traditions: Theological, Ethical, and PhilosophicalLexington Books "One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life." ?(Holy Mother Sarada Devi) "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan) On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 9:16:20 PM EDT, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: #yiv2163247668 #yiv2163247668 -- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv2163247668 Dear Madhav, I recall that Arvind Sharma once wrote a book entitled "The Hindu Gita" that explored the various commentarial traditions. https://www.amazon.com/Hindu-Gita-Classical-Interpretations-Bhagavadgita/dp/0812690133 However, I haven't looked at it for at least 20 years and I do not recall it well enough to say whether it may clarify the question you are raising. Its primary concern is to introduce the philosophical standpoint of the different commentators. Another work that juxtaposes aspects of the content of the Sankara and Ramanuja commentaries Is Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad's https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Self-Human-V-PUBLISHERS/dp/9386606364/ref=dp_ob_title_bk But I am not at all sure that either of these titles addresses directly the issue of varying padacchedas. It is possible that Van Buitenen's book on the Ramanuja commentary on the Gita may be worth consulting as well. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 8:02:32 PM To: Indology; Bharatiya Vidvat parishad Subject: [INDOLOGY] suggestions??I am looking for some English language book or article that discusses how passages from the Bhagavadg?t? or Upani?ads have been subjected to multiplepadacchedas?and interpretations by different commentators.? I have most of the Sanskrit commentaries, but I need to provide some reading materials for a few readers who are interested in this phenomenon, but don't read Sanskrit commentaries.? Any suggestions? Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California]_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 14:52:21 2019 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (andra.kleb at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 23:52:21 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <98e2d508-6385-45fd-b29f-9663211a45a3@Spark> Dear Prof Deshpande, not exactly what you are looking form, but certainly on a similar theme: https://www.academia.edu/38729460/Bitextuality_in_Bh?gavata_Pur??a_X.29 best, Andrey On 22. Apr 2019, 10:03 +0900, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY , wrote: > I am looking for some English language book or article that discusses how passages from the Bhagavadg?t? or Upani?ads have been subjected to multiple padacchedas?and interpretations by different commentators.? I have most of the Sanskrit commentaries, but I need to provide some reading materials for a few readers who are interested in this phenomenon, but don't read Sanskrit commentaries.? Any suggestions? > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 23 19:56:58 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 12:56:58 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I found an old 2010 agreement that was signed between the University of Michigan and someone named Jiri Holba at the Charles University in Prague regarding publishing a Czech translation of my Sa?skr?ta-Subodhin?: A Sanskrit Primer. Neither I nor anyone at the University of Michigan ever heard again from this individual and I have not seen such a translation. Has anyone come across a Czech translation of my book? If you have, can you please send me details of this publication? Thanks for any assistance. This question has come up since someone at the University of Michigan found this old agreement and wrote to me asking if anything further developed. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From collinb1 at ohio.edu Tue Apr 23 20:59:52 2019 From: collinb1 at ohio.edu (Collins, Brian) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 20:59:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Deccan Axe Head Message-ID: Dear List, Does anyone recognize this picture and have any idea where I could go to ask for permission to use it (preferably in a higher quality version? Many thanks Brian [cid:AC3F8DFB-FFDF-47EF-82A6-CA26670E9B2B] Assoc. Prof. Brian Collins Drs. Ram and Sushila Gawande Chair in Indian Religion and Philosophy 245 Ellis Hall Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 740-597-2103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cover1DeccanAxeHead.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33720 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 23 22:13:58 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 15:13:58 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUXVlc3Rpb24=?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Professor Ramakrishnan, for this information. Best Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 3:10 PM Ramakrishnan wrote: > Dear Professor, > > You could write to him to check if he did anything with your work. > > http://www.orient.cas.cz/kontakty/pracovnici/holba.html > > holba at orient.cas.cz > > Regards, > Ramakrishnan > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 20:56, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I found an old 2010 agreement that was signed between the University >> of Michigan and someone named Jiri Holba at the Charles University in >> Prague regarding publishing a Czech translation of my Sa?skr?ta-Subodhin?: >> A Sanskrit Primer. Neither I nor anyone at the University of Michigan ever >> heard again from this individual and I have not seen such a translation. >> Has anyone come across a Czech translation of my book? If you have, can >> you please send me details of this publication? Thanks for any >> assistance. This question has come up since someone at the University of >> Michigan found this old agreement and wrote to me asking if anything >> further developed. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "???????????????????" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Tue Apr 23 23:11:52 2019 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 19 23:11:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kad(h?)imarkara Message-ID: Dear List, A friend who is not a member of the list has asked me about any Sanskrit references to kadi- or kadhi-markara, which must be kadhimakara. The latter part of the compound is common everywhere, but has anybody seen ka(?)dhi used in the meaning of ?sea? or with any meaning. MW gives ka?dhi as referring to sea, but provides no references. BR gives it as Meer (dam Wasser) + dhi haltend). I checked up a number of texts on Gretil, but came up blank. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Greg Bailey "Kadimarkara is one example among many of possible Skt-Indonesian loans in Australia. It's accepted that 16 Indic loans are in north Australia languages from Macassan Indonesian contacts." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hegartyjm at googlemail.com Wed Apr 24 11:27:03 2019 From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 12:27:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sent on behalf of Valerie Roebuck Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would appreciate it if you sent responses to the query below to vjroebuck at btinternet.com . Best Wishes, James Hegarty Dear Colleagues Can anyone kindly provide a translation of two verses from the Tibetan Ud?navarga (Ched dubrjod pa?i tshoms), Chapter 1 vv 13-14? Part of v. 14 is missing from the Sanskrit Ud?navarga, but it appears to exist in the Tibetan version. However, from Rockhill?s 1883 translation (the only one currently available to me) it looks as though the Tibetan departs quite drastically from the Sanskrit. It?s part of a sequence on the impermanence of human existence. The Sanskrit, as edited by Bernhard: Uv_1.13ab: yath?pi tantre vitate yad yad uta? samupyate / Uv_1.13cd: alpa? bhavati v?tavyam eva? martyasya j?vitam // Uv_1.14ab: yath?pi va - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - / Uv_1.14cd: - - - ghatano bhavati eva? martyasya j?vitam // My (tentative) translation: 13. Just as, when yarn is stretched out, Whatever was woven is sheared And soon must be sewn up, Such is the life of a mortal. 14. Just as ... [section missing] ? ?.destruction, Such is the life of a mortal. Rockhill has: 13 (347) It is with the life of mortal man as with the spider, who, stretching hither and thither its web, is enclosed in it. 14. It is with the life of mortal man as with (the spider), who, though it would free itself from its trap, finds, whichever way it takes a step, the abode of death before it. There is definitely no spider (usually ?r?an?bha) in the Sanskrit as we have it: verse 13 appears to be about a (human) weaver, not an (arachnid) spinner. So is Rockhill drastically over-translating, or has the spider somehow crept in between the Sanskrit and Tibetan versions of the Ud?navarga? Many thanks - Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 24 13:34:10 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 06:34:10 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???? ?????? ???? ????????? ?????? ?? ? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? When I go to Gokula with my mind, I forget myself. Closing my eyes, I see the Delight of Nanda playing there. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Wed Apr 24 13:54:27 2019 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 13:54:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kad(h?)imarkara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190424155544.30e10ab361eada03adc07ffc@ff.cuni.cz> Dear Greg, Apte has also this word (kandhi?: The ocean -f. The neck ) and he adds an interesting definition: "ka? ?iro jala? v? dh?yate 'tra" (see also the previous entries: kandha?: a cloud, and kandhara?: 1. the neck, 2. 'the holder of water', a cloud). This definition apparently comes either from the V?caspatyam (ka? ?irojala? v? dh?yate 'tra ?dh?re ki; vol. 7, p. 1650, Calcutta ed.) or the ?abdakalpadruma (ka? ?ira? samudrapak?e jala? dhriyate yatra; vol. 2, p. 21, Chaukhambha reprint). V?caspatyam and ?abdakalpadruma also quote their source: R?janirgha??a? (= R?janigha??u = Abhidh?nac???ma?i = Nigha??ur?ja). But this is again a lexicon, so it does not help much. Anyway, it might be useful to look at it (it was published in 1896, ASS 33). The Oriya Lexicon (vol. 2, p. 1303) has the word 'kandhi' and gives two meanings: 1. shoulder, 2. ocean, the sea. But I do not know whether it also takes this word from some Sanskrit lexicon, or whether it is indeed used in Oriya text(s). Best, Lubomir On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 23:11:52 +0000 Greg Bailey via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear List, > > A friend who is not a member of the list has asked me about any Sanskrit references to kadi- or kadhi-markara, which must be kadhimakara. The latter part of the compound is common everywhere, but has anybody seen ka(?)dhi used in the meaning of ?sea? or with any meaning. MW gives ka?dhi as referring to sea, but provides no references. BR gives it as Meer (dam Wasser) + dhi haltend). > > I checked up a number of texts on Gretil, but came up blank. Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Cheers, > > Greg Bailey > > > "Kadimarkara is one example among many of possible Skt-Indonesian loans in Australia. It's accepted that 16 Indic loans are in north Australia languages from Macassan Indonesian contacts." > From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Apr 24 15:16:39 2019 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 15:16:39 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: <1334697117.5771798.1556114267592@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43166861-72C9-442B-816E-1DE1DEA1DFF7@uclouvain.be> For those interested in the Ud?navarga. Note the iuxta displaying of the different versions on the Bibliotheca Polyglotta https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php : https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=fulltext&view=fulltext&vid=71&cid=110504&level=2 (The English translation is Rockhill's one) D?but du message r?exp?di? : De: Dylan Esler > Objet: Ud?navarga verses from the Tibetan Date: 24 avril 2019 ? 15:57:47 UTC+2 ?: "vjroebuck at btinternet.com" > R?pondre ?: Dylan Esler > Dear Dr Roebuck, Following your enquiry sent through the Indology list, please allow me to send you below my translation of the two Ud?navarga verses from the Tibetan. As you surmised, there is no mention of a spider! With best wishes, Dylan Esler Institut Orientaliste, Universit? catholique de Louvain CERES, Ruhr-Universit?t Bochum ********************************* Ud?navarga (Ched-du brjod-pa?i tshoms), in bKa?-?gyur, sDe-dge edition, vol.72 (mdo-sde, vol.sa), pp.417-505. Chapter 1, vv.13-14 (p.418.1-2) dper na thags ni brkyang ba la/ spun ni gang dang gang bcug pa?i/ spun gyis rting la gtugs pa ltar/ mi rnams srog kyang de bzhin no/ Translation: For instance, just as when a fabric is stretched out, Whatever yarn has been inserted (i.e. woven) Must later be sewn together, Such is human life. dper na nges par bsad pa dag/ gom pa gang dang gang bor bas/ gsad sa?i drung du bsnyen pa ltar/ mi rnams srog kyang de bzhin no/ Translation: For instance, just as one who is surely to be killed, Wherever he takes a step, Will approach the vicinity of the place of execution, Such is human life. ************************************** De: James Hegarty via INDOLOGY > Objet: [INDOLOGY] Sent on behalf of Valerie Roebuck Date: 24 avril 2019 ? 13:27:03 UTC+2 ?: indology > Cc: Valerie J Roebuck > R?pondre ?: James Hegarty > Dear Colleagues, I would appreciate it if you sent responses to the query below to vjroebuck at btinternet.com. Best Wishes, James Hegarty Dear Colleagues Can anyone kindly provide a translation of two verses from the Tibetan Ud?navarga (Ched dubrjod pa?i tshoms), Chapter 1 vv 13-14? Part of v. 14 is missing from the Sanskrit Ud?navarga, but it appears to exist in the Tibetan version. However, from Rockhill?s 1883 translation (the only one currently available to me) it looks as though the Tibetan departs quite drastically from the Sanskrit. It?s part of a sequence on the impermanence of human existence. The Sanskrit, as edited by Bernhard: Uv_1.13ab: yath?pi tantre vitate yad yad uta? samupyate / Uv_1.13cd: alpa? bhavati v?tavyam eva? martyasya j?vitam // Uv_1.14ab: yath?pi va - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - / Uv_1.14cd: - - - ghatano bhavati eva? martyasya j?vitam // My (tentative) translation: 13. Just as, when yarn is stretched out, Whatever was woven is sheared And soon must be sewn up, Such is the life of a mortal. 14. Just as ... [section missing] ? ?.destruction, Such is the life of a mortal. Rockhill has: 13 (347) It is with the life of mortal man as with the spider, who, stretching hither and thither its web, is enclosed in it. 14. It is with the life of mortal man as with (the spider), who, though it would free itself from its trap, finds, whichever way it takes a step, the abode of death before it. There is definitely no spider (usually ?r?an?bha) in the Sanskrit as we have it: verse 13 appears to be about a (human) weaver, not an (arachnid) spinner. So is Rockhill drastically over-translating, or has the spider somehow crept in between the Sanskrit and Tibetan versions of the Ud?navarga? Many thanks - Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hegartyjm at googlemail.com Wed Apr 24 16:03:57 2019 From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 17:03:57 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Thanks_from_Dr._Valerie_Roebuck_re._Ud=C4=81navarga?= Message-ID: <34F2143D-E598-4BBD-935B-300BD79C852F@googlemail.com> Dear Colleagues Thank you so much for all your help on the Ud?navarga verses. It seems clear now that the similes in vv. 13 and 14 are about respectively (13) weaving and (14) a condemned man on the way to execution, both of which fit very well into a chapter on Impermanence. The spider may possibly have crept in an a result of a misreading. As ever, I am awestruck by both the range of expertise and the helpfulness of this List. I seem to have dropped off it by accident, but hope to be back soon. Best wishes Valerie Roebuck From yogacara at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 17:28:38 2019 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 13:28:38 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: <43166861-72C9-442B-816E-1DE1DEA1DFF7@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <4e06d1ea-9522-a715-7762-8e9db8479ca6@gmail.com> Dear? all, This is only slightly off point. While the? Sanskrit version and the Tibetan are in accord, the Chinese poses a different verse in place of the weaver stanza; it is the strings of a musical instrument, not a piece of fabric, that are snapped. The earliest Chinese translation of the corresponding verses is by Zhu Fonian in 374 CE (T 212), which? reads. ????? ????? ????? ????? Just as stretching out and weaving together, in order to throw the loom's shuttle through the weave, gradually exhausts its threads, human life is like this. ????? ????? ????? ????? Just as a prisoner [about to] die, will be brought through the entire town, moving toward the street of his death, human life is like this. -- The version included on the Bibliotheca Polyglotta site (T 213), the last of several Chinese renderings, was tr. by Tian Xizai ca. 985 CE, fairly late for a Chinese translation. The weaving verse does not appear, but in its place is a musician: the strings of a musical instrument are severed, rather than threads: ????? ????? ????? ????? 11 Just as a person strumming a chin-se (Chinese "lute") fully embodies a plethora of wondrous tones, If the instrument's strings are cut there isn't even the tiniest of sounds. A person's life is also like this. ????? ????? ????? ????? 12 Just as a prisoner bound in fetters is dragged through all the town, moving toward the street of his execution, [a person's] life-span is also like this. In the series of "a person's life is also like this" stanzas, regardless of version, there is no mention of a spider. regards, Dan Lusthaus From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Apr 24 19:13:08 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 12:13:08 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Fwd:_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: <4e06d1ea-9522-a715-7762-8e9db8479ca6@gmail.com> Message-ID: What is the basis of the English translation, Sanskrit, Tibetan or Chinese? Madhav On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:29 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > This is only slightly off point. While the Sanskrit version and the > Tibetan are in accord, the Chinese poses a different verse in place of > the weaver stanza; it is the strings of a musical instrument, not a > piece of fabric, that are snapped. > > The earliest Chinese translation of the corresponding verses is by Zhu > Fonian in 374 CE (T 212), which reads. > > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > Just as stretching out and weaving together, > in order to throw the loom's shuttle through the weave, > gradually exhausts its threads, > human life is like this. > > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > Just as a prisoner [about to] die, > will be brought through the entire town, > moving toward the street of his death, > human life is like this. > -- > > > The version included on the Bibliotheca Polyglotta site (T 213), the > last of several Chinese renderings, was tr. by Tian Xizai ca. 985 CE, > fairly late for a Chinese translation. The weaving verse does not > appear, but in its place is a musician: the strings of a musical > instrument are severed, rather than threads: > > ????? ????? > ????? ????? 11 > Just as a person strumming a chin-se (Chinese "lute") > fully embodies a plethora of wondrous tones, > If the instrument's strings are cut there isn't even the tiniest of sounds. > A person's life is also like this. > > ????? ????? > ????? ????? 12 > Just as a prisoner bound in fetters > is dragged through all the town, > moving toward the street of his execution, > [a person's] life-span is also like this. > > > In the series of "a person's life is also like this" stanzas, regardless > of version, there is no mention of a spider. > > regards, > > Dan Lusthaus > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankajaindia at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 20:34:22 2019 From: pankajaindia at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?QFByb2ZQYW5rYWpKYWluIFBoRCDgpKrgpILgpJXgpJwg4KSc4KWI4KSo?=) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 15:34:22 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers: Jainism and Nonviolence for Newsletter of International Institute for Asian Studies, Leiden, Netherlands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: *Call for Papers for a special Focus section in The Newsletter, published by **International Institute for Asian Studies, Leiden, the Netherlands* The summer issue of The Newsletter*, to be published in June 2020, will feature a Focus section on the theme: *The history and contemporary relevance of Jainism and nonviolence in Asian traditions* Jainism, like Hinduism and Buddhism, is one of the three ancient traditions from India but remains relatively less known across the globe. One of the prime Jain virtues is Ahimsa, usually translated as nonviolence. There have been several volumes and special issues of academic books and journals focussing on violence but nonviolence remains a relatively untouched theme for such volumes. In a special issue for the International Institute for Asian Studies, we invite articles exploring the history and contemporary relevance of Jainism and Nonviolence in other Asian traditions. In addition to the historical themes, we invite articles also on contemporary themes that may discuss how nonviolent techniques, such as passive resistance, overlaps with issues such as the environment, geopolitical issues, education, diversity and inclusion, gender studies, and more. The articles can be from any discipline of humanities or social sciences focussing on Jainism or nonviolence in other traditions of Asia. The articles should be either 1400-1750 words (1 page) or 2600-3500 words (2 pages). Each article should start with a good introduction which clearly indicates what the reader can expect from the remainder of the article (not an abstract). Images (without copyright infringements) should be attached. Endnotes should be a necessary minimum. The issue will go into the layout in May 2020. You will receive PDF proof pages to check before we go to print at the beginning of June. The issue will be published mid-June 2020. It is distributed by hardcopy and online ? both for free. All contributors may request as many copies as they wish. *The International Institute for Asian Studies (IIAS) is located in Leiden, The Netherlands (https://iias.asia). IIAS is a humanities and social sciences research institute and knowledge exchange platform. It encourages the multidisciplinary study of Asia and initiates programmes that engage Asian and other international partners. IIAS facilitates fellowships, organizes conferences and publishes The Newsletter, a free academic non-peer-reviewed publication produced three times a year. With a worldwide readership of about 50,000. The Newsletter is the premier Asian Studies forum for Asia scholars. Please email your articles for this special issue to me by January 1st, 2020. Thanks, Pankaj Jain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Pankaj Jain ???? ??? Associate Professor, Dept of Philosophy and Religion Co-chair, India Initiative Group University of North Texas Editor, Encyclopedia of Hinduism unt.academia.edu/PankajJain/, @ProfPankajJain orcid.org/0000-0003-3906-0855 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 20:35:15 2019 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 19 16:35:15 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My English translations are fairly literal renderings of the Chinese. Dan > On Apr 24, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: > > What is the basis of the English translation, Sanskrit, Tibetan or Chinese? > > Madhav > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:29 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear all, > > This is only slightly off point. While the Sanskrit version and the > Tibetan are in accord, the Chinese poses a different verse in place of > the weaver stanza; it is the strings of a musical instrument, not a > piece of fabric, that are snapped. > > The earliest Chinese translation of the corresponding verses is by Zhu > Fonian in 374 CE (T 212), which reads. > > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > Just as stretching out and weaving together, > in order to throw the loom's shuttle through the weave, > gradually exhausts its threads, > human life is like this. > > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > Just as a prisoner [about to] die, > will be brought through the entire town, > moving toward the street of his death, > human life is like this. > -- > > > The version included on the Bibliotheca Polyglotta site (T 213), the > last of several Chinese renderings, was tr. by Tian Xizai ca. 985 CE, > fairly late for a Chinese translation. The weaving verse does not > appear, but in its place is a musician: the strings of a musical > instrument are severed, rather than threads: > > ????? ????? > ????? ????? 11 > Just as a person strumming a chin-se (Chinese "lute") > fully embodies a plethora of wondrous tones, > If the instrument's strings are cut there isn't even the tiniest of sounds. > A person's life is also like this. > > ????? ????? > ????? ????? 12 > Just as a prisoner bound in fetters > is dragged through all the town, > moving toward the street of his execution, > [a person's] life-span is also like this. > > > In the series of "a person's life is also like this" stanzas, regardless > of version, there is no mention of a spider. > > regards, > > Dan Lusthaus > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -- > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de Thu Apr 25 05:42:53 2019 From: straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de (Martin Straube) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 07:42:53 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: <4e06d1ea-9522-a715-7762-8e9db8479ca6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190425074253.Horde.Oj1PrEcBlxvVe_mSnd2i-XV@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear colleagues, Everyone interested in the Ud?navarga should consult the ?Sanskrit-W?rterbuch der buddhistischen Texte aus den Turfan-Funden und der kanonischen Literatur der Sarv?stiv?da-Schule? (Sanskrit Dictionary of the Buddhist Texts from the Turfan Finds and of the Canonical Literature of the Sarv?stiv?da School), G?ttingen 1994-2018. Countless manuscripts fragments that were unknown to older text editions have been taken into account for this dictionary. Thus, the relevant articles of a text or a passage, taken together, sometimes virtually amount to a new edition, which is especially true for the Ud?navarga, the Mah?prinirv??as?tra, and, to a lesser extent, the Catu?pari?ats?tra. For stanza Uv 1.14 one finds in the Additions and Corrections s.v. pada a nearly complete reconstruction, together with a quotation of a similar passage from the A?guttaranik?ya: Uv 1.14 (dazu Or.15014/718 Rb; vgl. SHT (VIII) 1993 V2) yath?pi va(dhy)/// ... ///(ya)d y(a)d uddharate p(a)da(m*) antik?ghatano bhavati (eva?) martyasya j?vitam (vgl. AN IV 138.4ff. seyyath? pi br?hma?a g?v? vajjh? ?gh?tana? niyyam?n? ya? ?ad eva p?da? [v.l. pada?] uddharati santike 'va hoti vadhassa santike 'va mara?assa, evam eva kho br?hma?a govajjh?pama? j?vita? manuss?na? ...). Also, the German translation of the complete Ud?navarga by Michael Hahn (contained in: ?Vom rechten Leben -- Buddhistische Lehren aus Indien und Tibet,? Frankfurt am Main, Leipzig, 2007) should be consulted. With best wishes Martin Straube -- Martin Straube Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography Pali Text Society Philipps-Universit?t Marburg Indologie und Tibetologie Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg Germany From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Apr 25 13:07:27 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 06:07:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ???? ??????????????? ????????????????? ?????: ? ???????? ?? ????????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? How would we be able to imagine the brilliance of the jewel of Krishna? Opening the gates of my mind, Krishna himself offered me a vision. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 13:34:27 2019 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 15:34:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A new blog on South Indian Manuscript Message-ID: Dear list members, I have the pleasure to announce that the scientific blog of the project *Texts Surrounding Texts*: *Satellite Stanzas, Prefaces and Colophons in South-Indian Manuscripts (collections of the Paris BnF and Hamburg Stabi)* (TST, funded by the research program FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG) is now online: https://tst.hypotheses.org/ Yours with best wishes. Emmanuel FRANCIS Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) Online CV HAL Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegoloukota at ucla.edu Thu Apr 25 15:50:40 2019 From: diegoloukota at ucla.edu (DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 10:50:40 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kad(h?)imarkara (Greg Bailey) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I feel the entire search for a Sanskrit etymon be a red herring. 19th century reports on the chimaerical *kadimakara*, as far as I have been able to track, always make reference to the mythology of the Dieri/Diyari people in the area of Lake Eyre, and therefore not in "Northern Australia." Peter K. Austin's *Dictionary of Diyari *( https://www.academia.edu/2491259/A_Dictionary_of_Diyari_South_Australia) gives *markara* as the name of a fish, *Macquaria Ambigua*; the element *kati *enters into the composition of the Diyari name for Lake Eyre, Katithandra. So perhaps it is all a coincidence? I doubt that a Sanskrit *kandhi=**"ocean" attested only in lexica could have spread in South East Asia, although, who knows. If possible, though, I would ask Dr. Bailey to ask his friend to share with us the list of Sanskrit lexical items in northern Australian languages, I would love to know which those are. *namaskaromi,* Diego Loukota -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.gluckman at alumni.anu.edu.au Thu Apr 25 16:55:20 2019 From: m.gluckman at alumni.anu.edu.au (Martin Gluckman) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 16:55:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lithuanian - Sanskrit cognates Message-ID: Dear friends, Could someone kindly point me to lists/sources for old (or modern) Lithuanian - Sanskrit (classical or Vedic) cognates. Also any if any comparative grammar studies have been done that would also be useful. With kindest wishes, Martin Gluckman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthew.scarborough at cantab.net Thu Apr 25 18:09:07 2019 From: matthew.scarborough at cantab.net (Matthew Scarborough) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 19:09:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lithuanian - Sanskrit cognates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <992a9a4747d88a1b26b484111ee072f4@cantab.net> Dear Martin, I think your best bet for this would be to trawl the indices for Vedic in a Lithuanian etymological dictionary, or the indices for Lithuanian in Mayrhofer's _Etymologisches W?rterbuch des Altindoarischen_. A very good and quite reliable dictionary for Old Lithuanian was recently published a few years ago: Hock, Wolfgang, Elvira-Julia Bukevi?iu?te?, Christiane Schiller, Reiner Fecht, Anna Helene Feulner, Eugen Hill & Dagmar S. Wodtko (eds) 2015. _Altlitauisches etymologisches W?rterbuch. Band I: A - M. Band II: N - ?. Band III: Verzeichnisse und Indices._ Hamburg: Baar Verlag. http://www.baar-verlag.com/en/Books/Altlitauisches-etymologisches-Woerterbuch-Old-Lithuanian-Etymological-Dictionary.html If you can read Polish, also useful and up to date is the following which includes the contemporary language: Smoczy?ski, Wojciech. 2007. _S?ownik etymologiczny j?zyka litewskiego_.Wilno: Uniwersytet Wile?ski, Wydzia? Filologiczny. In English there is also Rick Derksen's recent _Etymological Dictionary of the Baltic Inherited Lexicon_ which follows the Leiden School of Indo-European reconstruction: Derksen, Rick. 2015. _Etymological Dictionary of the Baltic Inherited Lexicon._ Leiden: Brill. Hope these suggestions help. Best wishes, Matthew --- Dr. M. J. C. Scarborough ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." On 2019-04-25 17:55, Martin Gluckman via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear friends, > > Could someone kindly point me to lists/sources for old (or modern) Lithuanian - Sanskrit (classical or Vedic) cognates. > > Also any if any comparative grammar studies have been done that would also be useful. > > With kindest wishes, > > Martin Gluckman > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Apr 25 19:03:34 2019 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 19 14:03:34 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Maturai_V=C4=ABra=E1=B9=89_Kataipp=C4=81=E1=B9=ADal__Introduction?= Message-ID: <1461B959-5939-439F-858F-285F7BA69188@aol.com> Dear Indologists, I need the introductory discussion in the Maturai V?ra? Kataipp??al edited by N?. V??am?malai and published by the Maturaik K?mar?car Palkalaikka?akam in 1972. I would really appreciate a PDF of the same. Thank you in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 09:59:41 2019 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 19 11:59:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indo-Aryan speakers and Shaktism Message-ID: Dear Indologists, A few years ago, I came across an article intended to debate the close connection of some "Indo-Aryan" speaking groups (I use commas because I doubt that we could never speak of "pure" Indo-Aryan speakers when the migration waves into the Subcontinent began) and Shakta traditions. Unfortunately, I am not able to remember who wrote about this topic. Anyway, the article focused on Indo-Aryan tribes settled in (Himalayan?) mountains, tracing a close connection between these tribes and Shaktism. Could anyone suggest any reference to this topic? Sincerely, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies(South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Apr 26 13:20:34 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 19 06:20:34 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??????????? ???? ????????? ?????: ? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? The little boy cherished by his mother Yashoda, cared for by his father Nanda, and loved by a host of cowherds is dancing in my heart. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Fri Apr 26 14:52:39 2019 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 19 16:52:39 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: <43166861-72C9-442B-816E-1DE1DEA1DFF7@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <87v9z095u0.fsf@lmu.de> Dear Valerie and Christophe, there is also (as noted by Bernhard) a Pali parallel for the first verse only at Ja vi 26: yath? pi tante vitate ya? yad ev?pav?yati appaka? hoti vetabba? eva? macc?na j?vita? and, more interestingly, a G?ndh?r? parallel in the Khotan Dharmapada https://gandhari.org/a_manuscript.php?catid=CKM0077 where verses 149?150 in contrast to the other versions form one single sentence: yadha vi tadri vikadi ya yed eva odu opadi apaka bhodi votavi ohara?aseva sadii emam eva ma?u?a?a (*ye) y[a?e] sadi pra?ayo ya ya i vivasadi radi mara?aseva sadii Brough (p. 222) translates this as follows: As on the stretched out warp, the more that the weft is woven, the less there remains to weave, as the end of the weaving comes nearer,?so also for men, and all other living creatures, each night that passes brings them nearer to death. and further notes: Rockhill?s translation of thags as ?spider? instead of ?warp? led to a misunderstanding of the verse as a whole, and a wrong comparison with Dhp. 347. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Fri Apr 26 15:01:17 2019 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 19 16:01:17 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:_Ud=C4=81navarga_verses_from_the_Tibetan?= In-Reply-To: <87v9z095u0.fsf@lmu.de> Message-ID: Marvellous! From my first Sanskrit professor, too. Valerie Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 26 Apr 2019, at 15:52, Stefan Baums wrote: > > Dear Valerie and Christophe, > > there is also (as noted by Bernhard) a Pali parallel for the first > verse only at Ja vi 26: > > yath? pi tante vitate > ya? yad ev?pav?yati > appaka? hoti vetabba? > eva? macc?na j?vita? > > and, more interestingly, a G?ndh?r? parallel in the Khotan > Dharmapada > > https://gandhari.org/a_manuscript.php?catid=CKM0077 > > where verses 149?150 in contrast to the other versions form one > single sentence: > > yadha vi tadri vikadi > ya yed eva odu opadi > apaka bhodi votavi > ohara?aseva sadii > > emam eva ma?u?a?a > (*ye) y[a?e] sadi pra?ayo > ya ya i vivasadi radi > mara?aseva sadii > > Brough (p. 222) translates this as follows: > > As on the stretched out warp, the more that the weft is woven, > the less there remains to weave, as the end of the weaving > comes nearer,?so also for men, and all other living creatures, > each night that passes brings them nearer to death. > > and further notes: > > Rockhill?s translation of thags as ?spider? instead of ?warp? > led to a misunderstanding of the verse as a whole, and a wrong > comparison with Dhp. 347. > > All best, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Baums, Ph.D. > Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From e.demichelis at ymail.com Sat Apr 27 12:23:31 2019 From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 19 12:23:31 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) In-Reply-To: <901252455.1766279.1556367811652.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <901252455.1766279.1556367811652@mail.yahoo.com> Re-posted from the H-BUDDHISM list, also relevant to this list.Best regardsElizabeth De Michelis(Independent scholar) PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) by Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn? Dear Colleagues, This is a message on behalf of the venerable Bhik?u Zhihan, president of the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na (Buenos Aires), to inform those of us who may not have heard the news yet, that Dr. Carmen Dragonetti (b. 1937) passed away on December 1st, 2018, following the passing of her husband Dr. Fernando Tola (b. 1915) the previous year (2017). Dr Tola and Dragonetti's Fundaci?n Instituto de Estudios Budistas (FIEB), with its extensive collection of Buddhist texts and secondary literature, is now effectively under the management of the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na. At present, they are still in the process of finding a permanent home for the?library collection in central Buenos Aires, intending to make it available to the general public, students and scholars in the near future. With kind regards, Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn? ? ?gama Research Group Department of Buddhist Studies Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts Dharma Drum Mountain Taiwan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 12:59:21 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 19 06:59:21 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) In-Reply-To: <901252455.1766279.1556367811652@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To use a phrase more appropriate for an Indologist who has made some of what she studied her own (a phrase that Prof. Paturi used earlier on this list): sad-gati-pr?ptir astu "May she attain a good gati." Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 27 13:35:47 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 19 06:35:47 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ??????? I wish to see with my mind Krishna in the courtyard of Gokula. What else in the world is more beautiful for me to see? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 15:47:01 2019 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 19 21:17:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >passed away on December 1st, 2018, following the passing of her husband Dr. Fernando Tola (b. 1915) the previous year (2017) Many of these are unable to bear the loss of their ardhaanga/ardhaangini. Sadgatipraaptirastu. On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 6:30 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > To use a phrase more appropriate for an Indologist who has made some of > what she studied her own (a phrase that Prof. Paturi used earlier on this > list): > > sad-gati-pr?ptir astu > > "May she attain a good gati." > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Apr 27 16:08:26 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 19 09:08:26 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) In-Reply-To: <901252455.1766279.1556367811652@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry to hear about the passing of Dr. Carmen Dragonetti. She and her husband Dr. Tola had visited the University of Michigan a few times and were friends with my late colleague Prof. Luis Gomez. Now, sadly all three are gone. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 5:24 AM Elizabeth De Michelis via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Re-posted from the H-BUDDHISM list, also relevant to this list. > Best regards > Elizabeth De Michelis > (Independent scholar) > > PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) > > by Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn? > > Dear Colleagues, > > This is a message on behalf of the venerable Bhik?u Zhihan, president of > the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na (Buenos Aires), to inform those of us who may not > have heard the news yet, that Dr. Carmen Dragonetti (b. 1937) passed away > on December 1st, 2018, following the passing of her husband Dr. Fernando > Tola (b. 1915) the previous year (2017). > > Dr Tola and Dragonetti's Fundaci?n Instituto de Estudios Budistas (FIEB), > with its extensive collection of Buddhist texts and secondary literature, > is now effectively under the management of the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na. At > present, they are still in the process of finding a permanent home for > the library collection in central Buenos Aires, intending to make it > available to the general public, students and scholars in the near future. > > With kind regards, > > Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn? > > > > ?gama Research Group > > Department of Buddhist Studies > > Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts > > Dharma Drum Mountain > > Taiwan > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dhammadinnaa at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 21:04:50 2019 From: dhammadinnaa at gmail.com (Bhikkhuni Dhammadinna) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 19 05:04:50 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, on seeing my message the to the H-Buddhism list re-posted by Elizabeth De Michelis, I realised I had accidentally sent an earlier message - meant to this list - to the list owner address instead of the list itself, and had been wondering what had happened to it. Apologies. Kind regards, Dhammadinna _______________ To: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] PASSING> Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) Message-ID: <901252455.1766279.1556367811652 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Re-posted from the H-BUDDHISM list, also relevant to this list.Best regards Elizabeth De Michelis(Independent scholar) ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Bhikkhuni Dhammadinna Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 09:54 Subject: Dr Carmen Dragonetti (1937-2018) To: Dear Colleagues, This is a message on behalf of the venerable Bhik?u Zhihan, president of the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na (Buenos Aires), to inform those of us who may not have heard the news yet, that Dr. Carmen Dragonetti (b. 1937) passed away on December 1st, 2018, following the passing of her husband Dr. Fernando Tola (b. 1915) the previous year (2017). Dr Tola and Dragonetti's Fundaci?n Instituto de Estudios Budistas (FIEB), with its extensive collection of Buddhist texts and secondary literature, is now effectively under the management of the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na. At present, they are still in the process of finding a permanent home for the library collection in central Buenos Aires, intending to make it available to the general public, students and scholar in the near future. With kind regards, Bhikkhun? Dhammadinn? ?gama Research Group Department of Buddhist Studies Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts Dharma Drum Mountain Taiwan http://agamaresearch.dila.edu.tw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 01:39:43 2019 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 19 07:09:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Irugapa Nanartharatnamala Message-ID: Dear scholars, Can anyone of you scan psges number 128 and 129 of the following book? The digital copy available at archive.org does not have these two pages. Nanartharatnamala of Irugapa Danadadhinatha Critically edited by B. R. Sharma Published by Deccan College, Poona -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Apr 28 13:16:38 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 19 06:16:38 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ????????????? ???????? ??????? ???? ???? ? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ???? ????? ??????? How can I describe the deeds of this wonderful Krishna, whose plays have astonished everyone's minds? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Mon Apr 29 12:03:53 2019 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 12:03:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson Message-ID: I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. Patrick Olivelle From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 29 12:19:22 2019 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 12:19:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1413560435.1916924.1556540362792@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Patrick, This is an enormous shock. Gerry and I just corresponded a few days ago. ?He contributed to my volume on reincarnation earlier this year.? This is an immeasurable loss both to his friends and loved ones and to the academy. ? In shared sorrow,Jeffery Long? Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad On Monday, April 29, 2019, 8:03 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dxs163 at case.edu Mon Apr 29 12:22:55 2019 From: dxs163 at case.edu (Deepak Sarma) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 08:22:55 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96C87E3E-3727-43D5-B87A-EAD68C1C9CD8@case.edu> Dear Patrick: I am so very sad to learn about this. Gerry was a mentor and friend since I was a graduate student in the early 90s. He was one of the foundations and founding members of the discipline. Here?s to hoping that his purusa is in kaivalya. Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Professor of Religious Studies Professor of Bioethics (secondary appointment) School of Medicine, Case Western Reserve University Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art Cleveland Museum of Art Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies Tomlinson Hall 2121 MLK Jr. Drive Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 deepak.sarma at case.edu deepaksarma.com > On Apr 29, 2019, at 8:03 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: > > I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Apr 29 13:08:45 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 06:08:45 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ??????????? ??????? ?????????? ? ??????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ?????? ??????? I offer my obeisance to that baby Krishna who sleeps on the leaf of a banyan tree placing his lotus-foot with his lotus-hand in his lotus-mouth. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 14:02:15 2019 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 19:32:15 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nanarthasangraha Ajayapala Message-ID: Dear Scholars, I am looking for missing pages of Nanarthasangraha of Ajayapala from pages 97 onwards. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.491316/page/n109 has data till sakAra, and thereafter the next two pages are blank in scan. The next data is of kSakAra. The data about hakArAdi words are missing in the scan. If any of you would be able to provide those missing pages, I would be obliged. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 16:54:45 2019 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 12:54:45 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1A4DA0F7-D55D-493C-9D34-07C8FE682E61@gmail.com> This is indeed sad news. I first met him many years ago at a conference at Stony Brook. We reminisced about that at last November?s AAR annual meeting. Gerry presented there on a panel that I chaired and suggested at the business meeting for the Indian and Chinese Religions Compared Unit a panel theme for the upcoming AAR meeting on Mind and Consciousness. He was to have presented at that as well. So this time the session will also sadly be a memorial to him. He will be missed. Dan Lusthaus > On Apr 29, 2019, at 8:03 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: > > I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 20:32:08 2019 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 14:32:08 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson In-Reply-To: <1A4DA0F7-D55D-493C-9D34-07C8FE682E61@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gerald Larson did something after retiring that was very inspiring to me, and will no doubt be inspiring to others. Freed from teaching duties, day after day for twelve years he worked persistently on a new translation of V?caspati-mi?ra?s Tattva-vai??rad? commentary on the Yoga-s?tra and bh??ya. He regarded this commentary as crucial for understanding the S??khya-Yoga tradition, and he felt that the two old translations of it (by R?ma Pras?da, 1910, and by James Haughton Woods, 1914) needed to be updated. His translation was published in 2018 as *Classical Yoga Philosophy and the Legacy of** S??khya, with Sanskrit Text and English Translation of P?ta?jala Yogas?tra-s, Vy?sa Bh??ya and Tattvavai??rad? of V?caspatimi?ra*. The fact that so many scholars die with their work unfinished did not deter him, and what he accomplished after retirement is an inspiration to us all. As is well known, Gerald Larson was a specialist in the joint S??khya-Yoga tradition. He and his longtime mentor Ram Shankar Bhattacharya together produced two volumes of the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies: Volume 4. S ??khya: A Dualist Tradition in Indian Philosophy (1987); and Volume 12. Yoga: India's Philosophy of Meditation (2008). For many years he taught classes on S??khya and Yoga combined, attracting hundreds of students (including myself) by the word Yoga, and then introducing them to S??khya as the underlying philosophical basis of Yoga. Personal reminiscences often show less-known sides of a person. My first-year Sanskrit class at University of California, Santa Barbara, taught by Nandini Iyer, consisted of mostly former students of the Maharishi International University (this was in 1978). They were strongly interested in the Vedas, and implored Gerald Larson to teach Vedic Sanskrit. Although this was not his personal interest, he kindly agreed to do so. He had studied it briefly at Columbia University, I think from a pupil of Vedic specialist W. Norman Brown. Despite not being particularly interested in it, he not only agreed to do it, but the enthusiasm that he brought to it in order to help his students was memorable. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 22:23:25 2019 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 19 18:23:25 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, Most likely W. Norman Brown?s student who taught Gerald Larson at Columbia was Royal W. Weiiler. Elliot > On Apr 29, 2019, at 4:32 PM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Gerald Larson did something after retiring that was very inspiring to me, and will no doubt be inspiring to others. Freed from teaching duties, day after day for twelve years he worked persistently on a new translation of V?caspati-mi?ra?s Tattva-vai??rad? commentary on the Yoga-s?tra and bh??ya. He regarded this commentary as crucial for understanding the S??khya-Yoga tradition, and he felt that the two old translations of it (by R?ma Pras?da, 1910, and by James Haughton Woods, 1914) needed to be updated. His translation was published in 2018 as Classical Yoga Philosophy and the Legacy of S??khya, with Sanskrit Text and English Translation of P?ta?jala Yogas?tra-s, Vy?sa Bh??ya and Tattvavai??rad? of V?caspatimi?ra. The fact that so many scholars die with their work unfinished did not deter him, and what he accomplished after retirement is an inspiration to us all. > > As is well known, Gerald Larson was a specialist in the joint S??khya-Yoga tradition. He and his longtime mentor Ram Shankar Bhattacharya together produced two volumes of the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies: Volume 4. S??khya: A Dualist Tradition in Indian Philosophy (1987); and Volume 12. Yoga: India's Philosophy of Meditation (2008). For many years he taught classes on S??khya and Yoga combined, attracting hundreds of students (including myself) by the word Yoga, and then introducing them to S??khya as the underlying philosophical basis of Yoga. > > Personal reminiscences often show less-known sides of a person. My first-year Sanskrit class at University of California, Santa Barbara, taught by Nandini Iyer, consisted of mostly former students of the Maharishi International University (this was in 1978). They were strongly interested in the Vedas, and implored Gerald Larson to teach Vedic Sanskrit. Although this was not his personal interest, he kindly agreed to do so. He had studied it briefly at Columbia University, I think from a pupil of Vedic specialist W. Norman Brown. Despite not being particularly interested in it, he not only agreed to do it, but the enthusiasm that he brought to it in order to help his students was memorable. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Apr 30 13:05:15 2019 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 19 06:05:15 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses ?????????? ???? ????????????????????? ? ?????????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???: ??????? We offer our obeisance to that child who lies in the fold of the leaf of a banyan tree in ocean of deluge with rising waves and protects the world placing it in his belly. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankajaindia at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 13:10:39 2019 From: pankajaindia at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?QFByb2ZQYW5rYWpKYWluIFBoRCDgpKrgpILgpJXgpJwg4KSc4KWI4KSo?=) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 19 08:10:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAIS Inaugural Conference in Feb 2020 in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello and Namaste, Please mark your calendars for the AAIS Inaugural Conference in Feb 2020 in Dallas, Texas in affiliation with NAAAS https://www.naaas.org/national-conference-2/ A detailed call for papers with the theme of postcolonialism will be announced soon. Hope to host you here in Dallas in February 2020. Thanks, Pankaj Jain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Pankaj Jain ???? ??? Associate Professor, Dept of Philosophy and Religion Co-chair, India Initiative Group University of North Texas Editor, Encyclopedia of Hinduism unt.academia.edu/PankajJain/, @ProfPankajJain orcid.org/0000-0003-3906-0855 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birendra176 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 15:51:54 2019 From: birendra176 at yahoo.com (Birendra Nath Prasad) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 19 15:51:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 75, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: <1379925197.2625485.1556639514273.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1379925197.2625485.1556639514273@mail.yahoo.com> Respected colleagues, I am looking for the following article: Deva, Krishna. 1980. ?Stone Temple (No.2) at Nalanda?. Journal of the Indian Society for Oriental Art, n.s., 11, pp. 80-84. If you have this paper, kindly share its PDF version. The PDF of this paper may kindly be sent as an email attachment. With regards Dr. Birendra Nath Prasad Assistant Professor Centre for Historical Studies Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi-110067 Email: bnprasad at mail.jnu.ac.in -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 4/29/19, wrote: Subject: INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 75, Issue 28 To: indology at list.indology.info Date: Monday, April 29, 2019, 4:00 PM Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to ??? indology at list.indology.info To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? indology-request at list.indology.info You can reach the person managing the list at ??? indology-owner at list.indology.info When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Gerry Larson (Olivelle, J P) ? 2. Re: Gerry Larson (Jeffery Long) ? 3. Re: Gerry Larson (Deepak Sarma) ? 4. Continuing my Krishna verses (Madhav Deshpande) ? 5. Nanarthasangraha Ajayapala (Dhaval Patel) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:03:53 +0000 From: "Olivelle, J P" To: Indology , +++RISA ACADEMIC ??? DISCUSSION LIST+++ Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. Patrick Olivelle ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:19:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Jeffery Long To: "Olivelle, J P" ,? Indology ??? ,? +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ ??? Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson Message-ID: <1413560435.1916924.1556540362792 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear Patrick, This is an enormous shock. Gerry and I just corresponded a few days ago. ?He contributed to my volume on reincarnation earlier this year.? This is an immeasurable loss both to his friends and loved ones and to the academy. ? In shared sorrow,Jeffery Long? Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad On Monday, April 29, 2019, 8:03 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 08:22:55 -0400 From: Deepak Sarma To: "Olivelle, J P" Cc: Indology , +++RISA ACADEMIC ??? DISCUSSION LIST+++ Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Gerry Larson Message-ID: <96C87E3E-3727-43D5-B87A-EAD68C1C9CD8 at case.edu> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset=utf-8 Dear Patrick: ??? I am so very sad to learn about this. Gerry was a mentor and friend since I was a graduate student in the early 90s. He was one of the foundations and founding members of the discipline. ??? Here?s to hoping that his purusa is in kaivalya. Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Professor of Religious Studies Professor of Bioethics (secondary appointment) School of Medicine, Case Western Reserve University Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art Cleveland Museum of Art Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies Tomlinson Hall 2121 MLK Jr. Drive Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 deepak.sarma at case.edu deepaksarma.com > On Apr 29, 2019, at 8:03 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: > > I just heard the sad news that Gerry Larson has passed away. I do not have any further details at this moment. > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 06:08:45 -0700 From: Madhav Deshpande To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Continuing my Krishna verses ??? ??????????? ??????? ?????????? ? ??????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ?????? ??????? I offer my obeisance to that baby Krishna who sleeps on the leaf of a banyan tree placing his lotus-foot with his lotus-hand in his lotus-mouth. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:32:15 +0530 From: Dhaval Patel To: indology at list.indology.info, bvparishat at googlegroups.com Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nanarthasangraha Ajayapala Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear Scholars, I am looking for missing pages of Nanarthasangraha of Ajayapala from pages 97 onwards. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.491316/page/n109 has data till sakAra, and thereafter the next two pages are blank in scan. The next data is of kSakAra. The data about hakArAdi words are missing in the scan. If any of you would be able to provide those missing pages, I would be obliged. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info ------------------------------ End of INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 75, Issue 28 **************************************** From birendra176 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 15:52:36 2019 From: birendra176 at yahoo.com (Birendra Nath Prasad) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 19 15:52:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for the PDF of a paper In-Reply-To: <1505077397.2645637.1556639556240.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1505077397.2645637.1556639556240@mail.yahoo.com> Respected colleagues, I am looking for the following article: Deva, Krishna. 1980. ?Stone Temple (No.2) at Nalanda?. Journal of the Indian Society for Oriental Art, n.s., 11, pp. 80-84. If you have this paper, kindly share its PDF version. The PDF of this paper may kindly be sent as an email attachment. With regards Dr. Birendra Nath Prasad Assistant Professor Centre for Historical Studies Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi-110067 Email: bnprasad at mail.jnu.ac.in