[INDOLOGY] [Spam:******] Re: Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change)

Tue Sep 11 16:17:44 UTC 2018

Dear Herman,

It is very interesting indeed. Does this mean that also the Leiden University spam filter is racist? Or rather programmed by old white men?

Best wishes,

Camillo

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries  
The Weston Library 
Broad Street, Oxford 
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk 

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University's
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> 
Sent: 10 September 2018 20:11
To: s.raman at utoronto.ca; indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] [Spam:******] Re: Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change)

It may be of some interest to the participants of the present discussion on racism, nazism etc. that the last few messages did not pass the Leiden University spam filter.

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com

________________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Srilata Raman via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 10 september 2018 20:25
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [Spam:******] Re: [INDOLOGY] Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle    climate change)

Dear Colleagues,
We must sympathize and feel with Dr. Bagchee on this "non-racist"
remark about "aging white men"! Also for the modest and clear articulation of his unsurpassed and unchallengeable "knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist." I really think there is nothing further to be said is there - on the part especially of any of us who have also, alas for us,  studied "German Indology" in Germany and must now shamefully bear that dreadful cross for the rest of our lives!  I will leave it to Dr. Bagchee to have the last word yet again as he usually does and must - after all I cannot claim to even have a minuscule amount of his knowledge, his vast sense of victimhood or his sheer expertise regarding the weighty matter at hand.

with friendly greetings,
Srilata Raman
Associate Professor of Hinduism
University of Toronto

Quoting Joydeep via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear friends,
>
>
>
> The problem with Indology is perhaps greater than we think, when two 
> young Indian intellectuals are called names in this forum by aging white men.
>
>
>
> Remember that a few days ago there were loud demands for apologies to 
> women who had apparently been criticized at the WSC. Since when has it 
> become acceptable to scream names like ?Hindutva racist?? If only 
> hypocrisy could speak!
>
>
>
> Self-righteous posturing is no substitute for hard work and rigorous 
> research. By calling us ?Hindutva? you have only demonstrated that the 
> term is a weapon you use fecklessly to defend weak scholarship from criticism.
>
>
>
> Not ONE of our arguments in any of our books rests on ad hominems. Do 
> not display your ignorance by repeating hearsay... it only 
> demonstrates that you do not read.
>
>
>
> Because George Thompson raised the issue of racism in Indology, here 
> is our work on the subject:
>
>
>
> https://www.academia.edu/37374680/Indology_The_Origins_of_Racism_in_th
> e_Humanities
> .
>
>
>
> It is a review of Pascale Rabault-Feurhahn?s book *Archives of Origins*.
>
>
>
> We do not make the charge of racism lightly: it is based on a 
> knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and 
> philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any 
> Indologist. When you attack us for bringing these problems to light, 
> you only prove their continuing existence and the timeliness of our critique.
>
>
>
> Shana Tova,
>
> Joydeep
>
>
> Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Academia.edu Homepage 
> <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>
>
> The Nay Science
> <http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;
> jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
> Argument and Design
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabhar
> ata> Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
> When the Goddess Was a Woman 
> <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
> Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India 
> <http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
> German Indology on OBO Hinduism
> <http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/o
> bo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
> ___________________
> What, then, is Philosophy?
> Philosophy is the supremely precious.
>
> Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 6:30 PM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < 
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Camillo, dear all,
>>
>> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of 
>> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 
>> 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread 
>> does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers 
>> they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down 
>> in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that 
>> might be relevant in the climate change debate.
>>
>> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live 
>> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with 
>> respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is 
>> needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors 
>> are that are the most damaging to the environment.
>>
>> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit 
>> literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over 
>> the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even 
>> millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others.
>> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. 
>> the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As 
>> such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit 
>> literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with 
>> many other aspects of our modern lives.
>>
>> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us 
>> tackle climate change.
>>
>> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of 
>> the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which 
>> people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the 
>> ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: 
>> this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things).
>>
>> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just 
>> need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; 
>> maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding.
>>
>> All the best,
>>       Antonia
>>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < 
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t 
>>> decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead 
>>> for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for 
>>> humankind and many other living beings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cammillo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>>>
>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bodleian Libraries
>>>
>>> The Weston Library
>>>
>>> Broad Street, Oxford
>>>
>>> OX1 3BG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>>>
>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>>>
>>> in Oxford University?s
>>>
>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>>>
>>> www.mindgrowing.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04
>>> *To:* Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com>; Indology < 
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >  I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it
>>> because German Indology has been good Indology.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no 
>>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your 
>>> statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or 
>>> biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention 
>>> is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to 
>>> statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own 
>>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our 
>>> educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, 
>>> nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ??????  ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a 
>>> renounced ascetic , not a ??????  , a family person. Within the 
>>> reference frame of  ?????? ,  expressions such as ?? ?? ??????  ?????
>>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery 
>>> to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" 
>>> used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta 
>>> used by family people with mundane interests.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my 
>>> understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not 
>>> adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other 
>>> strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even 
>>> talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. 
>>> That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. 
>>> Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and 
>>> responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues 
>>> such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th
>>> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two 
>>> professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were 
>>> doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of 
>>> self-contradictions etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of 
>>> early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of 
>>> this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the 
>>> symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word 
>>> nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to 
>>> stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, 
>>> Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is 
>>> not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri 
>>> and Bagchee. But the  repeated invoking of stereotypes of 
>>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal 
>>> in tendency etc  is found almost everywhere including popular 
>>> political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism 
>>> may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why 
>>> Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why 
>>> Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 
>>> 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries 
>>> and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss 
>>> with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of  ?? ?? ??????  ????? 
>>> ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when 
>>> I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture 
>>> is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those 
>>> who chose  Sanskrit, India and Indian culture  as their subject 
>>> matter out of love and respect for that subject matter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain 
>>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think 
>>> "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other 
>>> assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to 
>>> allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into 
>>> the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his 
>>> policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc).
>>>
>>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of 
>>> which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is 
>>> naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to 
>>> it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear:
>>> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories 
>>> concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. 
>>> Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of 
>>> those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind.
>>> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a 
>>> different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than 
>>> whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of 
>>> persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, 
>>> or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers 
>>> of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an 
>>> incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the 
>>> day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the 
>>> Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, 
>>> but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, 
>>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take 
>>> solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads 
>>> prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!)
>>>
>>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first 
>>> person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German"
>>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against 
>>> one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes 
>>> any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. 
>>> Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some 
>>> ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and 
>>> unhelpful as they may be,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson 
>>> <gthomgt at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> re JOYDEEP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, 
>>> mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the 
>>> years, then I will fight with you.  I don't defend "German Indology" 
>>> because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology.
>>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology.  I think that Jonathan and 
>>> Nagaraj are astonishingly naïve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology.  
>>> Have they read Joydeep's papers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Shame on you both!  Please read some of  Joydeep's papers, and then 
>>> get back in touch with the rest of us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> best wishes,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> George Thompson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> J. Silk
>>> Leiden University
>>>
>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>>
>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3
>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&sourc
>>> e=g>,
>>> Room 0.05b
>>>
>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>>
>>> The Netherlands
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>>
>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal 
>>> Education,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list 
>>> options or
>>> unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Antonia Ruppel
>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>

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