From f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk Sat Sep 1 09:40:06 2018 From: f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk (Fabrizio Ferrari) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 18 09:40:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] article request Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Does anybody have a scanned copy of the following paper to share? Meulenbeld, G. Jan (1989). ?The search for clues to the chronology of Sanskrit medical texts, as illustrated by the history of bha?g? (Cannabis sativa L.), Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, 15: 59?70. With kind regards, Fabrizio Ferrari Professor of Religious Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Chester Parkgate Road CH1 4BJ Chester Tel (office): +44.(0)1244.511039 Email: f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk Sat Sep 1 09:56:02 2018 From: f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk (Fabrizio Ferrari) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 18 09:56:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] R: article request In-Reply-To: <27ee854b122c9a6439ff564992e91ade@mail.aikq.de> Message-ID: Many thanks to Martin Straube for his fast reply! Best wishes, FF --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- Von: Fabrizio Ferrari via INDOLOGY > Datum: 01.09.2018 11:40:06 An: "indology at list.indology.info" > Betreff: [INDOLOGY] article request > Dear colleagues, > > Does anybody have a scanned copy of the following paper to share? > > Meulenbeld, G. Jan (1989). ?The search for clues to the chronology of > Sanskrit medical texts, as illustrated by the history of bha?g? > (Cannabis sativa L.), Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, 15: 59?70. > > With kind regards, > > Fabrizio Ferrari > Professor of Religious Studies > Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Chester > Parkgate Road > CH1 4BJ > Chester > Tel (office): +44.(0)1244.511039 > Email: f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Sep 1 13:33:23 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 18 06:33:23 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: Krishna says to me: ?????? ???? ? ??? ???????? ??????? ?? ??????? ? ??????????????????? ??? ???? ????????? ??????? Even if you are not able to see me with your eyes, I am that light with which you see the world. ? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????: ? ???? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ??????? You do not hear me with your ears, but residing in your heart I speak with your words. Know that, my best friend. ???? ?????? ?? ??????????: ??????? ?????? ? ????? ?? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? Though you don?t always feel me everywhere with your touch, I constantly do all the work with your hands. ?????? ???? ?? ????????? ? ?????????? ????? ? ????????????? ??????????? ???????????????? ??????? You don?t know the ways of my actions in the world, but I am engaged in turning the wheels of the world without rest. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.gluckman at alumni.anu.edu.au Sat Sep 1 23:24:44 2018 From: m.gluckman at alumni.anu.edu.au (Martin Gluckman) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 18 23:24:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Browser Based OCR Tool for Sanskrit Message-ID: Dear Friends, I am happy to announce the completion of our browser based OCR tool that has been developed for working primarily with Sanskrit text (Devanagari/IAST or mixed) is now ready. This tool makes use of Google's machine learning and supports many scripts including some undocumented and experimental ones so you might be pleasantly surprised that a rare script you are working on is supported or will be supported in future. You may access it herewith: https://ocr.sanskritdictionary.com/ To make use of it simply paste an image into the browser and the recognition will start automatically and output the text equivalent in Unicode text. I personally use a free tool called Lightshot to cut and paste selected parts of the screen. You may also manually upload an image file if you prefer. We have tested it with rather poorly printed texts and the results are very promising and we hope this will be of use to the scholarly community. As the system uses a machine learning engine it will constantly improve over time. I appreciate any feedback and suggestions for future improvement. With kindest wishes, Martin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 04:05:09 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 09:35:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5b8b617a.1c69fb81.63c8b.0a7d@mx.google.com> ShriKrishnah sharanam hi nah./Vrindaavane kunja vihaarashilamGopaanganaa vastra vilopa lilam./Chetoharam tam navanita lolamRaadhaa yutam? Krishnam aham prapadye.//Dhanyaa bhavanto haribhaavaputaahPushpena vaachaa sukham archayantah./Shlokena bhaktaan anuranjayantahYugaaya kurvanti nu pushpa shayyaam.//Adyaiva dishtyaa ShriKrishnapraakatya divasah. Mandasya girish Kumar Jha sharmanah..// Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY Date: 9/1/18 7:04 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Indology , Bharatiya Vidvat parishad , e-shabda-charcha-peeth , Jayaram Sethuraman , Ranjana Date Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Continuing my Krishna verses: Krishna says to me: ?????? ???? ? ??? ???????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???????????????????? ??? ???? ????????? ???????Even if you are not able to see me with your eyes, I am that light with which you see the world. ? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????: ????? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????You do not hear me with your ears, but residing in your heart I speak with your words. Know that, my best friend. ???? ?????? ?? ??????????: ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ???????Though you don?t always feel me everywhere with your touch, I constantly do all the work with your hands. ?????? ???? ?? ????????? ? ?????????? ????? ?????????????? ??????????? ???????????????? ???????You don?t know the ways of my actions in the world, but I am engaged in turning the wheels of the world without rest. Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 04:11:40 2018 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 09:41:40 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear scholars, I am looking for published commentaries on Yogasutra. The attached work mentioned 21 such published Sanskrit commentaries in bibliography from page 55-57. I have been able to locate book 3 in this list. I would appreciate if any scholar can point to pdf or purchasable copy of any of the above work. Also any other Sanskrit commentaries on Yoga works would be welcome. Best wishes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 17-Asana-in-PYSutra.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2213330 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 11:15:55 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 13:15:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Confession of ignorance and request for your kind advice Message-ID: Dear Colleagues I have been working for a while on a short text variously ascribed to differently named authors, a text called Pra?nottararatnam?lik? / ?m?l?. Several of the manuscripts I was able to obtain have interlinear commentaries (well, I understand them to be commentaries), but I cannot read them. I can live with that, but I'd at least like to know what language they are in. One of them is in Harvard, and the catalogue information for this manuscript contains the following: Interlinear commentary throughout the manuscript might be in old Hindi or Prakrit but Poleman has identified it as Gujarathi. The beginning and the end of the commentary is as follows, on [[facs=f1r, locus=f. 1r]] s?ri?gautama?ya namah? namaskari? kevali? tan?atu sva?mi? ti?rtham?kara pras?nottararatnama?la?prakaran?a bolisu . da?navamanus?ya devata?vam?dani?ka pu?jya tatha? deva ma?hi s?ri? maha?vi?ra and on [[facs=f4v, locus=f. 4v]] 28 ni?paja?vi? s?veta?m?bara a?ca?rye i?m? vimala i?saim? na?mi i?m? u?jhali? pras?nottararatnama?la? kam?t?hirahi hum?ti? purus?a pratina tralakari?m? api tu alam?kari? i?m? 29 . Another MS contains, for instance, near the beginning the following (I don't know how to split the words so I just transcribe as scripta continua as well as I can read it): tehani?nam?ni? pra?nottaratnam?l? n?ma prakara?a kahispu? Any advice would be appreciated, and with excuses in advance for my utter ignorance. Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 11:46:36 2018 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 17:16:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In respnse to my query, Mr. Shankara sent a list of the commentaries on YS. This satisfies my query. For the benefit of the list, I am attaching the XLSX. I also thank members of INDOLOGY list who sent links to various commentaries to me via private mail. Thank you very much. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 2 15:53:38 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 08:53:38 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: Krishna says to me: ???? ???????????????? ? ??????? ? ???????: ? ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? I am not some strange form, remote or mysterious. With a calm mind, you will see me as I am. ???? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?????, ???????? ? ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???????? ? ??? ?? ??????? I am the sensation in your heart, your faith and your intelligence. I am your thought and your movement. How am I not known to you? ??????? ??? ????? ?????????? ?? ???? ? ? ??????? ????????????????? ??: ??????? Fallen in some difficulty, O friend, when you call me with your words, I am not far away. I am near you and busy protecting you. ?? ??:???? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??? ? ???????? ??? ???????????? ? ??:?? ? ? ?? ????? ??????? O friend, I know your sorrows and happiness. In this world, no sorry or happiness transcends me. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 17:10:31 2018 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 13:10:31 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers: AJIS (Deadline in a week: 8th Sep) Message-ID: Dear Esteemed Colleagues, Inviting you all to send your papers for consideration for publication in the upcoming winter issue of AJIS. Deadline: September 9, 2018. Please check the Call for Papers for the Winter issue of American Journal of Indic Studies https://journals.library.unt.edu/index.php/indicstudies/about Please register on the journal website included in the link above. Papers can be submitted directly on the journal website. Please do not hesitate to contact me if there are any additional questions. Thank you. Lavanya Lavanya Vemsani Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies) Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences Shawnee State University Portsmouth OH 45662 Phone: 740-351-3233 Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies Editor-in-Chief, American Journal of Indic Studies Vice-President, Ohio Academy of History -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 17:15:55 2018 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 13:15:55 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers: AJIS Deadline Sep 9 th Message-ID: <3BF2059D-6B15-402F-9237-F0503B5FF0AC@gmail.com> I am extremely sorry for the typo in the subject line of my last post- Call for Papers- AJIS. The deadline is Sep 9th as noted in the content. Thank you. Lavanya Lavanya Vemsani Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies) Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences Shawnee State University Portsmouth OH 45662 Phone: 740-351-3233 Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies Editor-in-Chief American Journal of Indic Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 19:00:32 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 13:00:32 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dhaval Patel, If you just want to get an idea of what is in the various commentaries, any edition will do. But if you need to do serious research, commentaries that are well edited and accurately printed are necessary. In the case of the Vy?sa commentary, several editions are available. About the early editions, here is what James Haughton Woods wrote in the Preface to his 1914 English translation (p. xi): "The most accessible and the most carefully elaborated of these books is the one published in the ?nand??rama Series and edited by K???n?tha Sh?str? ?g??e. Variants from twelve manuscripts, mostly southern, are printed at the foot of each page; and Bhojadeva's V?tti is appended; also the text of the s?tras by itself and an index thereto. Another edition, in the Bombay Sanskrit Series, by R?jar?m Sh?str? Bodas, is also an excellent piece of work. I have, however, made use of the edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma (Calcutta, Sa?vat 1947, A.D. 1890; reprinted in Benares A.D. 1908) because it is based on northern manuscripts and because of the valuable notes in the editor's *?ippa?a*." The edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma was very hard to find. I finally had a friend make a photocopy of the 1908 reprint at the Harvard University Library, apparently the copy previously used by Woods. The ?nand??rama Series edition has been reprinted several times, but the reprints are re-typeset, introducing new typographical errors. So I photocopied the original 1904 edition at the University of Chicago Library. The original 1892 Bombay Sanskrit Series edition was also hard to find in North America, but I was able to photocopy it from the American Oriental Society Library at the Yale University Library. Scans of all three are posted here, along with a few other commentaries on the Yogas?tras: http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ Since the ?nand??rama Series edition was edited by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e from twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes, it is in effect a critical edition. However, the first critical edition that was called such is that by Vimala Karnatak, *P?ta?jala-Yoga-Dar?anam*, four volumes, Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University & Ratna Publications, 1992. It includes the commentaries by Vy?sa, V?caspati-mi?ra, and Vij??na-bhik?u. It also includes her own Hindi exposition. More recently the first volume of a critical edition by Philipp Maas was published: *Sam?dhip?da: das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * zum ersten Mal kritish ediert = The first chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * for the first time critically edited*, Aachen: Shaker, 2006. This is a very thorough critical edition of the Yogas?tras and Vy?sa's commentary, together forming the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, using all available sources. We anxiously await further volumes of this definitive critical edition. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 10:12 PM Dhaval Patel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear scholars, > > I am looking for published commentaries on Yogasutra. The attached work > mentioned 21 such published Sanskrit commentaries in bibliography from page > 55-57. > > I have been able to locate book 3 in this list. > I would appreciate if any scholar can point to pdf or purchasable copy of > any of the above work. > Also any other Sanskrit commentaries on Yoga works would be welcome. > > Best wishes > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 20:55:18 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 14:55:18 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dhaval Patel, Another example of the need to consult improved editions of Yogas?tra commentaries is the Yogasiddh?ntacandrika commentary by N?r?ya?at?rtha. This was published in the Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series as work 35 in 1910-1911, which long remained the only available edition, and is currently the edition that is available online. But this edition is incomplete, lacking the commentary on chapter 4 from the end of verse 3 to the end of the chapter, i.e., verses 4-34. It also lacks the commentary on most of verse 23 of chapter 1, all of verses 24 and 25, and the beginning of verse 26. It abruptly resumes with the commentary on verse 26 in mid-paragraph of the commentary on verse 23, without indication (p. 22, line 11). Fortunately, in 2000 a critical edition by Vimala Karnatak was published in the Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series as work 108. It is complete. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:00 PM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Dhaval Patel, > > If you just want to get an idea of what is in the various commentaries, > any edition will do. But if you need to do serious research, commentaries > that are well edited and accurately printed are necessary. In the case of > the Vy?sa commentary, several editions are available. About the early > editions, here is what James Haughton Woods wrote in the Preface to his > 1914 English translation (p. xi): > > "The most accessible and the most carefully elaborated of these books is > the one published in the ?nand??rama Series and edited by K???n?tha Sh?str > ? ?g??e. Variants from twelve manuscripts, mostly southern, are printed > at the foot of each page; and Bhojadeva's V?tti is appended; also the > text of the s?tras by itself and an index thereto. Another edition, in > the Bombay Sanskrit Series, by R?jar?m Sh?str? Bodas, is also an > excellent piece of work. I have, however, made use of the edition by Sv?mi > B?lar?ma (Calcutta, Sa?vat 1947, A.D. 1890; reprinted in Benares A.D. > 1908) because it is based on northern manuscripts and because of the > valuable notes in the editor's *?ippa?a*." > > The edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma was very hard to find. I finally had a > friend make a photocopy of the 1908 reprint at the Harvard University > Library, apparently the copy previously used by Woods. The ?nand??rama > Series edition has been reprinted several times, but the reprints are > re-typeset, introducing new typographical errors. So I photocopied the > original 1904 edition at the University of Chicago Library. The original > 1892 Bombay Sanskrit Series edition was also hard to find in North America, > but I was able to photocopy it from the American Oriental Society Library > at the Yale University Library. Scans of all three are posted here, along > with a few other commentaries on the Yogas?tras: > http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ > > Since the ?nand??rama Series edition was edited by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e > from twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes, it is in > effect a critical edition. However, the first critical edition that was > called such is that by Vimala Karnatak, *P?ta?jala-Yoga-Dar?anam*, four > volumes, Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University & Ratna Publications, 1992. It > includes the commentaries by Vy?sa, V?caspati-mi?ra, and Vij??na-bhik?u. > It also includes her own Hindi exposition. > > More recently the first volume of a critical edition by Philipp Maas was > published: *Sam?dhip?da: das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * zum > ersten Mal kritish ediert = The first chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * > for the first time critically edited*, Aachen: Shaker, 2006. This is a > very thorough critical edition of the Yogas?tras and Vy?sa's commentary, > together forming the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, using all available sources. > We anxiously await further volumes of this definitive critical edition. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 10:12 PM Dhaval Patel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear scholars, >> >> I am looking for published commentaries on Yogasutra. The attached work >> mentioned 21 such published Sanskrit commentaries in bibliography from page >> 55-57. >> >> I have been able to locate book 3 in this list. >> I would appreciate if any scholar can point to pdf or purchasable copy of >> any of the above work. >> Also any other Sanskrit commentaries on Yoga works would be welcome. >> >> Best wishes >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 22:53:01 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 16:53:01 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dhaval Patel, I just noticed that a commentary of some importance is missing in the list of 21 that you posted. It is of some importance because it is written by a Jaina commentator: Ya?ovijaya. It was first edited by Sukhlalji, *Yogadar?ana of Pata?jali with V?tti by Ya?ovijaya and Haribhadra's Yogavi??ik?*, Agra 1922. I have not seen this edition, so the bibliographic data is uncertain. I have only a 1991 reprint titled *P?ta?jala Yogadar?ana tath? H?ribhadr? Yogavi??ik?.* I also have a 2001 edition of it by Vair?gyarativijaya simply titled *P?ta?jalayogas?tr??i*, published by Pravachan Prakashan. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 2:55 PM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Dhaval Patel, > > Another example of the need to consult improved editions of Yogas?tra > commentaries is the Yogasiddh?ntacandrika commentary by N?r?ya?at?rtha. > This was published in the Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series as work 35 in > 1910-1911, which long remained the only available edition, and is currently > the edition that is available online. But this edition is incomplete, > lacking the commentary on chapter 4 from the end of verse 3 to the end of > the chapter, i.e., verses 4-34. It also lacks the commentary on most of > verse 23 of chapter 1, all of verses 24 and 25, and the beginning of verse > 26. It abruptly resumes with the commentary on verse 26 in mid-paragraph of > the commentary on verse 23, without indication (p. 22, line 11). > Fortunately, in 2000 a critical edition by Vimala Karnatak was published in > the Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series as work 108. It is complete. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:00 PM David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > >> Dear Dhaval Patel, >> >> If you just want to get an idea of what is in the various commentaries, >> any edition will do. But if you need to do serious research, commentaries >> that are well edited and accurately printed are necessary. In the case of >> the Vy?sa commentary, several editions are available. About the early >> editions, here is what James Haughton Woods wrote in the Preface to his >> 1914 English translation (p. xi): >> >> "The most accessible and the most carefully elaborated of these books is >> the one published in the ?nand??rama Series and edited by K???n?tha Sh? >> str? ?g??e. Variants from twelve manuscripts, mostly southern, are >> printed at the foot of each page; and Bhojadeva's V?tti is appended; >> also the text of the s?tras by itself and an index thereto. Another >> edition, in the Bombay Sanskrit Series, by R?jar?m Sh?str? Bodas, is >> also an excellent piece of work. I have, however, made use of the edition >> by Sv?mi B?lar?ma (Calcutta, Sa?vat 1947, A.D. 1890; reprinted in >> Benares A.D. 1908) because it is based on northern manuscripts and because >> of the valuable notes in the editor's *?ippa?a*." >> >> The edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma was very hard to find. I finally had a >> friend make a photocopy of the 1908 reprint at the Harvard University >> Library, apparently the copy previously used by Woods. The ?nand??rama >> Series edition has been reprinted several times, but the reprints are >> re-typeset, introducing new typographical errors. So I photocopied the >> original 1904 edition at the University of Chicago Library. The original >> 1892 Bombay Sanskrit Series edition was also hard to find in North America, >> but I was able to photocopy it from the American Oriental Society Library >> at the Yale University Library. Scans of all three are posted here, along >> with a few other commentaries on the Yogas?tras: >> http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ >> >> Since the ?nand??rama Series edition was edited by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e >> from twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes, it is in >> effect a critical edition. However, the first critical edition that was >> called such is that by Vimala Karnatak, *P?ta?jala-Yoga-Dar?anam*, four >> volumes, Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University & Ratna Publications, 1992. It >> includes the commentaries by Vy?sa, V?caspati-mi?ra, and Vij??na-bhik?u. >> It also includes her own Hindi exposition. >> >> More recently the first volume of a critical edition by Philipp Maas was >> published: *Sam?dhip?da: das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * >> zum ersten Mal kritish ediert = The first chapter of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * for the first time critically edited*, Aachen: >> Shaker, 2006. This is a very thorough critical edition of the Yogas?tras >> and Vy?sa's commentary, together forming the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, >> using all available sources. We anxiously await further volumes of this >> definitive critical edition. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 10:12 PM Dhaval Patel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear scholars, >>> >>> I am looking for published commentaries on Yogasutra. The attached work >>> mentioned 21 such published Sanskrit commentaries in bibliography from page >>> 55-57. >>> >>> I have been able to locate book 3 in this list. >>> I would appreciate if any scholar can point to pdf or purchasable copy >>> of any of the above work. >>> Also any other Sanskrit commentaries on Yoga works would be welcome. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 02:50:11 2018 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 18 22:50:11 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The universe as an image in a mirror Message-ID: The first verse of the Dak?in?m?rtistotram is: vi?va? darpa?a-d??yam?na-nagar?-tulya? nij?ntar-gata? pa?yann-?tmani m?yay? bahir ivodbhuta? yath? nidray? ya? s?k??t kurute prabodha-samaye sv?tmanam ev?dvaya? tasmai ?ri-guru-m?rtaye nama ida? ?ri-dak?in?m?rtaye One of the reasons Amarhath Rai in his article "The Daksinamurti Hymn and the Manasollasa published in Vol. 6 of The Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, 1932 gives for rejecting Sankaracarya as the author is the metaphor in the first verse of the world as an image in a mirror. Does this metaphor of the world as an image in a mirror only appear in Kashmir Shaivite writings or does it occur in the writings of other religous or philosophical schools. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 03:54:54 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 09:24:54 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The universe as an image in a mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?? ?? ????????????????? 3.2.28 ??????????? itself has the image/simile of images. ?????? here means the Sun's image. 3.2.28 is part of explaining ? ????????? ??????????????????????????? ??????? ?? 3.2.11 Thus 'image' as the relation between Brahman and the (entities in) Jagat is not limited to Advaita Vedanta. It is common to all schools of Vedanta. What Dakshinamurti stotra is specifically doing is making Jagat the image of Aatman inside the observer's ownself (????????????). For Advaita Aatman = Brahman. On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 8:20 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The first verse of the Dak?in?m?rtistotram is: > > vi?va? darpa?a-d??yam?na-nagar?-tulya? nij?ntar-gata? > > pa?yann-?tmani m?yay? bahir ivodbhuta? yath? nidray? > > ya? s?k??t kurute prabodha-samaye sv?tmanam ev?dvaya? > > tasmai ?ri-guru-m?rtaye nama ida? ?ri-dak?in?m?rtaye > > > One of the reasons Amarhath Rai in his article "The Daksinamurti Hymn and > the Manasollasa published in Vol. 6 of The Journal of Oriental Research, > Madras, 1932 gives for rejecting Sankaracarya as the author is the > metaphor in the first verse of the world as an image in a mirror. > > Does this metaphor of the world as an image in a mirror only appear in > Kashmir Shaivite writings or does it occur in the writings of other > religous or philosophical schools. > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 04:34:07 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 10:04:07 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5b8cb9c6.1c69fb81.82bc.8612@mx.google.com> Dear Professor Sahab,It's really a new idea and style to present thedevotion/Bhakti to Shri Krishna.I am indeed delighted.But you don't remember the Divine Couple including Rajarajeshwari Alabeli Aparimitakarunaamayi Sachchidaanandarupaa? Radha ShriKrishnasya paanigrihiti api vane Brahmavaivartaanusaarena.Although SriKrisna is Akaaranakarunaavarunaalayah but in doing karunaa Raadhaa goes superior to Shri Krishna as She never examines her Bhaktas especially sharanaagatas.Tathaapi kinchin nahi vaktum ishe? harshaabdhi vichi muditaantaraatmaa./Iti ShriKrisnadaasaanudaasasya GirishJha sharmanah. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: Madhav Deshpande Date: 9/2/18 9:24 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Indology , Bharatiya Vidvat parishad , e-shabda-charcha-peeth , Jayaram Sethuraman , Ranjana Date Subject: {???????????????????} Continuing my Krishna verses Continuing my Krishna verses: Krishna says to me: ???? ???????????????? ? ??????? ? ???????: ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????????? ???????I am not some strange form, remote or mysterious. With a calm mind, you will see me as I am. ???? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?????, ???????? ??????? ?????, ??????????, ???????? ? ??? ?? ???????I am the sensation in your heart, your faith and your intelligence. I am your thought and your movement. How am I not known to you? ??????? ??? ????? ?????????? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ????????????????? ??: ???????Fallen in some difficulty, O friend, when you call me with your words, I am not far away. I am near you and busy protecting you. ?? ??:???? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??? ????????? ??? ???????????? ? ??:?? ? ? ?? ????? ???????O friend, I know your sorrows and happiness. In this world, no sorry or happiness transcends me. Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "???????????????????" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Sep 3 09:15:36 2018 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 09:15:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The universe as an image in a mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, The image is definitely widespread in Buddhist materials, both tantric and non-tantric. One of the five aspects of the Buddha's gnosis (pa?caj??na) is "mirror-like gnosis" (?dar?aj??na), in which, according to the ca. 4th century Mah?y?nas?tr?la?k?ra (Bodhyadhik?ra) all that is knowable is reflected. I am sorry that I do not have the time at my disposal to identify additionalsources for you, but the famous article by Paul Demi?ville, ? Le miroir spirituel ?, Sinologica, I, 2, Basel, 1947,, pp. 112-137, may prove helpful (I do not recall now whether he considers only Chinese materials there or includes Buddhist canonical sources). Given the intertextuality between later Indian Buddhism and Kashmir Saivism, it is not surprising that the metaphor would be found in the latter sources as well. hope this helps to get you started, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Harry Spier via INDOLOGY Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2018 9:50:11 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] The universe as an image in a mirror The first verse of the Dak?in?m?rtistotram is: vi?va? darpa?a-d??yam?na-nagar?-tulya? nij?ntar-gata? pa?yann-?tmani m?yay? bahir ivodbhuta? yath? nidray? ya? s?k??t kurute prabodha-samaye sv?tmanam ev?dvaya? tasmai ?ri-guru-m?rtaye nama ida? ?ri-dak?in?m?rtaye One of the reasons Amarhath Rai in his article "The Daksinamurti Hymn and the Manasollasa published in Vol. 6 of The Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, 1932 gives for rejecting Sankaracarya as the author is the metaphor in the first verse of the world as an image in a mirror. Does this metaphor of the world as an image in a mirror only appear in Kashmir Shaivite writings or does it occur in the writings of other religous or philosophical schools. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep 3 09:57:55 2018 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 11:57:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The universe as an image in a mirror In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20180903115755.Horde.c3UV7jVRG7Y3tA5TCuOkorG@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Unsurprisingly, the image occurs very often in the Kashmirian Mok?op?ya (10th cent.), too. These are just a few examples taken at random from the 6th book: sarv?s?m anubh?t?n?m ?dar?o yo hy ak?trima? agamyo malalekh?n?? tac cittattvam aha? mahat (MU VI.11.107) ciddarpa?amah?lak?m?s trijagat pratibimbitam g?h??ty anugrahe??ntas svagarbham iva garbhi?? (MU VI.34.43) sarvag?pi cid etasmi?? cetasi pratibimbate pad?rtham antar ?datte n?nyo hi makur?d ?te (MU VI.36.52) jagannagaram ?dar?e cit?va pratibimbitam (MU VI.51.6ab) sarg?dita? prabh?ty eva nirmale 'rtha? prabimbate vid?tteti sthitis tv aiky?t sarvabimbyanubimbayo? (MU VI.54.41) [nirmale = citi] eva? par?t sam?y?t? r?jan sargaparampar?? tasminn eva mah?dar?e pratibimbam up?gat?? (MU VI.122.27) [mah?dar?e = cinm?tre] Best, R.S. From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:08:57 2018 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 07:08:57 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Stellenausschreibung / Job announcement University Assistant ("post doc") In-Reply-To: <9faeb11c-33db-1767-ffb4-7e0d8a3b6f9d@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, The University of Vienna is advertising a post-doc position (Universit?tsassistent/in ; University Assistant) in Modern South Asian Studies at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies. For further details, see the attachments in German and English. Both texts can also be found on the website of the University's Job Center at https://univis.univie.ac.at/ausschreibungstellensuche/flow/bew_ausschreibung-flow;jsessionid=C21D17890AE9FB1150CA7CA916CF2A8B?_flowExecutionKey=_cD89E9336-7670-3F26-C44E-427B1C4239FB_k800F2276-2554-EF6E-207E-C316EE0520D6&tid=68735.28&_language=en In the top left corner of the page, you can switch between the German and English versions. Applications may be submitted digitally via the Job Center no later than September 21, 2018. Please publicize this advertisement at your institution and forward it to qualified candidates. With kind regards, Dagmar Wujastyk -- Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Universit?t Wien Spitalgasse 2, Hof 2.1 1090 Wien T +43-1-4277 43502 F +43-1-4277 9435stb.univie.ac.at ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr?ft. www.avast.com <#m_-129857139467883340_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ausschreibung2018.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 101791 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: JobAnnouncement2018.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 81681 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:30:19 2018 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 20:00:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Confession of ignorance and request for your kind advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Namaste, I understand Gujarati. 'bolisu' seems Gujarati, meaning, 'we will speak'. I am a Gujarati and can read manuscripts with interlinear commentaries. I can help you decipher the commentary in case you wish to share the MSS via personal mail. On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, 16:47 Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues > > I have been working for a while on a short text variously ascribed to > differently named authors, a text called Pra?nottararatnam?lik? / ?m?l?. > Several of the manuscripts I was able to obtain have interlinear > commentaries (well, I understand them to be commentaries), but I cannot > read them. I can live with that, but I'd at least like to know what > language they are in. > One of them is in Harvard, and the catalogue information for this > manuscript contains the following: > > Interlinear commentary throughout the manuscript might be in old Hindi or > Prakrit but Poleman has identified it as Gujarathi. The beginning and the > end of the commentary is as follows, on [[facs=f1r, locus=f. 1r]] > s?ri?gautama?ya namah? namaskari? kevali? tan?atu sva?mi? ti?rtham?kara > pras?nottararatnama?la?prakaran?a bolisu . da?navamanus?ya > devata?vam?dani?ka pu?jya tatha? deva ma?hi s?ri? maha?vi?ra and on > [[facs=f4v, locus=f. 4v]] 28 ni?paja?vi? s?veta?m?bara a?ca?rye i?m? vimala > i?saim? na?mi i?m? u?jhali? pras?nottararatnama?la? kam?t?hirahi hum?ti? > purus?a pratina tralakari?m? api tu alam?kari? i?m? 29 . > > > Another MS contains, for instance, near the beginning the following (I > don't know how to split the words so I just transcribe as scripta continua > as well as I can read it): > tehani?nam?ni? pra?nottaratnam?l? n?ma prakara?a kahispu? > > Any advice would be appreciated, and with excuses in advance for my utter > ignorance. > > Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbagchee at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:01:44 2018 From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 16:01:44 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_"Gupta_Redaction"_and_Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata_Criticism?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Vishwa and I have composed a brief response to Fitzgerald?s ?Brahmanic redaction of earlier oral epic materials? hypothesis, presented at the recent Leiden conference organized by Peter Bisschop and Elizabeth Cecil (*Asia Beyond Boundaries: Transdisciplinary Perspectives on Primary Sources in the Premodern World* , August 27?31). At this venue, Fitzgerald repeated, despite extensive evidence against this thesis in print, his view that the Mah?bh?rata is presently a ?Brahmanic redaction of earlier oral epic materials.? Attributing Gupta-era origins to the text, he stated that the current text reflects an attempt by Brahmans to exert political and social influence following the Mauryas, an attempt he called ?largely successful.? We have already discussed the misconception that the Mah?bh?rata Critical Edition reconstructs a Brahmanic/normative/final redaction of the text in *Philology and Criticism* . We have also shown that the idea of an earlier, shorter, and more ?epic? ?Bh?rata,? which preceded the Mah?bh?rata, is a myth. This myth, as we showed in *The Nay Science* , originated in the German Indologists? nationalist, anti-Semitic, and racist longings, and was closely bound up with the idea of an Indo-Germanic or Aryan race. The search for the so-called *Urepos *has been one of the most spectacular misadventures in the humanities. Scholars have neither evolved objective criteria nor provided non-circular, non-question-begging conclusions. The idea that the P???avas were a non-Aryan, Brahmanic tribe that was ?grafted? into the Mah?bh?rata has racist antecedents, as we showed in *The Nay Science* . No evidence exists for an earlier *Heldengedicht *without the alleged Brahmanic and *bhakti *?interpolations,? an idea that we showed was Christian Lassen?s fantasy. Removing passages from the transmitted text neither establishes the existence of a ?pre-Brahmanic? Mah?bh?rata nor does it prove Brahmanic mischief, however much scholars may desire it. Fitzgerald?s conference paper uncritically repeated these tropes of an ideological Brahmanic takeover without either argument or evidence. Finally, the suggestion that the Mah?bh?rata is a Gupta-era text suffers from the fallacy of *cum hoc ergo propter hoc*: from the fact that we find material correlates (inscriptions, coinage, temple ruins) of the Mah?bh?rata?s theological and iconographic descriptions in the Gupta period we must not conclude that the work was authored or ?redacted? at this time. These descriptions could antedate their correlates by several centuries. Even if the Critical Edition has features that we think a text in the Gupta period would also have had, it does not follow that the text was ?redacted? to include them, for the simple reason that no one could have known that they had to redact this exemplar rather than any other, as it, rather than any other, would produce descendants that survived. Fitzgerald has not clarified which text he intends?do his comments pertain to the constituted text of the Critical Edition, the vulgate, or some earlier version? Moreover, which of the several manuscripts in existence are Fitzgerald?s ?Brahmans? supposed to have redacted? We have followed with interest the discussion on this list about opening up conferences to critical voices and minorities. The intent is laudable. But we will succeed only to the extent that we ourselves exercise absolute probity. Not hosting an open call for papers, using ERC funding without a transparent selection process, announcing conferences four days before they occur, inviting scholars connected by personal ties to the organizers; providing a platform for scholars whose tendentious and speculative views have been refuted, and not permitting competing views?are guaranteed to bring our discipline into disrepute. As Vishwa and I have repeatedly urged, let us first get our own house in order. To this day the German Oriental Society relies on an opaque and feudal system of *Empfehlungsschreiben *that bars critics from membership (see ?Theses on Indology,? nn. 13 and 55 and ?Jews and Hindus in Indology,? n. 178 ). To this day it has prevented discussion of its Nazi connections. The threatened exit of German Indologists from the IASS raises hopes that we can at last have a free and fair discussion about racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Brahmanism, Nazism, Christian evangelism, Protestant fundamentalism, caste discrimination, and the treatment of Jewish, minority, Asian, and women scholars in Indology. Instead of using the rhetoric of ?*Wissenschaft*? and ?expertise? (*Philology and Criticism*, pp. 269?74 ) to cover up a system of reciprocal favors, we should be using the conference system to foster excellence. Sincerely, Joydeep Dr. Joydeep Bagchee Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen Academia.edu Homepage The Nay Science Argument and Design Reading the Fifth Veda When the Goddess Was a Woman Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India German Indology on OBO Hinduism ___________________ What, then, is Philosophy? Philosophy is the supremely precious. Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lw24 at soas.ac.uk Mon Sep 3 17:43:48 2018 From: lw24 at soas.ac.uk (Lidia Wojtczak) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 18 18:43:48 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IIGRS 10 at SOAS Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, we're delighted to announce the programme of the tenth International Indology Graduate Research Symposium which will be taking place at SOAS University of London, September 28-29 , 2018. Please find the full programme in the attachment. Dr James Mallinson will give the keynote lecture "Cultural Flows in the History of Yoga." As usual, the IIGRS is free and open to the public but we request that those interested in attending register by writing to us at: iigrsuk at googlemail.com You can also find the programme and any other pertinent information on our website: https://iigrs.wordpress.com We look forward to seeing you in London! Lidia Wojtczak on behalf of the organisers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IIGRS10programme.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 378224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 18:34:55 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 00:04:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The universe as an image in a mirror In-Reply-To: <20180903115755.Horde.c3UV7jVRG7Y3tA5TCuOkorG@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: Sri Harry-ji , Is your question related to the authorship of Dak?in?m?rtistotram ? Is the question centred around whether S'ankar?ch?rya is its author or not? Isn't your question "Does this metaphor of the world as an image in a mirror only appear in Kashmir Shaivite writings?" imply that if it isn't the distinct feature of Kashmir Shaivism, Amarhath Rai's rejection of S'ankara's authorship on the basis of this image in the stotram is not tenable? Till now , did you get any message confirming that it is the distinct feature of Kashmir Shaivism ? 2018-09-03 15:27 GMT+05:30 Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > > Unsurprisingly, the image occurs very often in the Kashmirian Mok?op?ya > (10th cent.), too. These are just a few examples taken at random from the > 6th book: > > sarv?s?m anubh?t?n?m ?dar?o yo hy ak?trima? > agamyo malalekh?n?? tac cittattvam aha? mahat (MU VI.11.107) > > ciddarpa?amah?lak?m?s trijagat pratibimbitam > g?h??ty anugrahe??ntas svagarbham iva garbhi?? (MU VI.34.43) > > sarvag?pi cid etasmi?? cetasi pratibimbate > pad?rtham antar ?datte n?nyo hi makur?d ?te (MU VI.36.52) > > jagannagaram ?dar?e cit?va pratibimbitam (MU VI.51.6ab) > > sarg?dita? prabh?ty eva nirmale 'rtha? prabimbate > vid?tteti sthitis tv aiky?t sarvabimbyanubimbayo? (MU VI.54.41) [nirmale = > citi] > > eva? par?t sam?y?t? r?jan sargaparampar?? > tasminn eva mah?dar?e pratibimbam up?gat?? (MU VI.122.27) [mah?dar?e = > cinm?tre] > > Best, > R.S. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.t.bakker at rug.nl Tue Sep 4 07:05:53 2018 From: h.t.bakker at rug.nl (H.T.Bakker) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 09:05:53 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_13._"Gupta_Redaction"_and_Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata_Criticism_(Joydeep)?= Message-ID: <731cf739-7089-bc62-ff90-191c6d592d1e@rug.nl> Mitr??i ! The timelessness of Sanskrit literature cannot be illustrated better than by the figures of Kali and Dv?para who, time and again, find new embodiments. -- Dr Hans T. Bakker project curator (ERC), British Museum Professor emeritus of Sanskrit and Hinduism https://britishmuseum.academia.edu/HansTBakker http://dutchstudies-satsea.nl/auteur/33/HansTeye-Bakker.html From a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr Tue Sep 4 09:51:10 2018 From: a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr (a.murugaiyan) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 11:51:10 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reminder: FOURTEENTH INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON TAMIL EPIGRAPHY, 3-12 October 2018, India Message-ID: Dear List,Thanks for sharing the information. Best regards Appasamy Murugaiyan *??? ??? ??? ? FOURTEENTH INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON TAMIL EPIGRAPHY* /? Tamil Epigraphy: Corpus Analysis, Database Construction and Information Retrieval / *??? ??? ? ? Annamalai Unversity and Tamil University, Tamil Nadu, India, **3**-1**2****Octo**ber 2018* Jointly organised by: FRE 20188? Mondes iranien et indien, Paris, Annamalai University and Tamil University, Tamil Nadu, India. *For more details, please see the attached flyer and the following link:* http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/evenements-scientifiques/seminaires-de-recherche-stages/14th-international-workshop-on-tamil-epigraphy.html?lang=en **Appasamy Murugaiyan Coordinator EPHE-FRE 2018 Mondes iranien et indien Paris, France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Fourteenthworkshop_Tamilepigraphy.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 343909 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lw24 at soas.ac.uk Tue Sep 4 12:09:39 2018 From: lw24 at soas.ac.uk (Lidia Wojtczak) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 13:09:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IIGRS 10 at SOAS programme Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, since the attachment with the IIGRS 10 programme did not reach everyone, please find it pasted in the email below. You can download the PDF from our website: https://iigrs.wordpress.com/programme/ Best wishes, Avni Chag Karen O'Brien-Kop Lidia Wojtczak * International Indology Graduate Research Symposium 10* * SOAS University of London* SOAS South Asia Institute SOAS School of Languages, Cultures and Linguistics SOAS School of History, Religions and Philosophies SOAS Doctoral School Brough Sanskrit Awards *Programme 2018* *Friday, September 28th* *9:15 Welcome* *Session 1 *Chair: AVNI CHAG 9:30 TILAK PAREKH ? University of Cambridge ?aham brahma??smi? - A?tmabuddhi with the Brahmasvaru?pa Guru 10:00 HERSHINI SONEJI ? King?s College London Distinct Yet Dependent: The Interplay Between the Mind and ?tman in Sv?min?r?ya?a Hindu Philosophy 10:30 PUJA-ARTI PATEL ? Shree Somnath Sanskrit University Original Argument, Distinct Philosophy: The Interpretation of ?[sa] dahara uttarebhya?? in the Ved?nta Commentaries of R?m?nuja, ?r?ka??ha, and Bhadre?ad?sa 11:00 *tea* 11:30 KUSH DEPALA ? University of Heidelberg Ancient Form, Modern Interpretation: Reading a 21st Century V?dagrantha *Session 2* Chair: KAREN O?BRIEN-KOP 12:00 KEIKI NAKAYAMA ? Kyoto University The Criticism of Theism in the ?r?vakabh?mi of the Yog?c?rabh?mi 12:30 GAO MINGYUAN ? The Buddha-Dharma Centre of Hong Kong Vasubandhu and the Doctrine of Perfuming (v?san?) in Yog?c?rabh?mi 13:00 *lunch* *Session 3 *Chairs: KAREN O?BRIEN-KOP & LIDIA WOJTCZAK 14:30 ANA?S DORNIER-VIAVANT ? University of Paris 3 Sorbonne Nouvelle Dream in Buddhism: The Dispute Between the Vij??nav?da and the Madhyamaka Schools 15:00 SZILVIA SZANYI ? University of Oxford Cognitive Obstacles in the Way of Liberation in Vasubandhu?s Tri??ik? and Sthiramati?s Tri??ik?vij?aptibh??ya 15:30 P?TER SZ?LER ? E?tv?s Lor?nd University The Pre-?aiva Mah?k?la Of Ujjayin? 16:00 *tea* 16:30 DR JAMES MALLINSON *Keynote Lecture* ? Cultural Flows in the History of Yoga 18:30 * dinner* *Saturday, September 29th* *Session 3 *Chair: Y?TO KAWAMURA 9:00 ALFRED YE ? University of Oxford Uddyotakara?s Criticism of Sa?m?khya on Causality: With a Reflection on Early Nya?ya Theism 9:30 NIVEDITA CHATURVEDI ? University of Delhi A Critical Analysis of M?m??s?-s?tra 1.1.4, with reference to ?V?ttik?ra?, Kum?rila-bha??a and P?rthas?rathimi?ra 10:00 S?NDOR PAJOR ? E?tv?s Lor?nd University The Ny?yas?tra Against the P??upata Concept of God. An Old interpretation with New Proof 10:30 * tea* *Session 4 *Chair: GRAHAM BURNS 11:00 VALTERS NEGRIBS ? University of Oxford >From Equanimity to Yogic Meditation: The Dharmas?tras, the Mah?bh?rata, and the P?ta?jalayoga??stra 11:30 ARINDE JONKER ? Leiden University The Death of a Yogi. The Relation between Yoga and Death in Early ?aivism 12:00 SAMANI UNNATA PRAGYA ? SOAS Semantics of the Polysemous term Samudgh?ta in Jaina and Buddhist literature 12:30 * lunch* *Session 5* Chair: MADDALENA ITALIA 14:00 TARA HEUZ? ? University of Oxford ?What should I, ill-fated, do??: Madness and Culpability in the Nai?adh?nanda 14:30 IRIS IRAN FARKHONDEH ? University of Paris 3 Sorbonne Nouvelle Sanskrit Satire and its Humour: K?emendra?s Samaya-m?t?k? Within Sanskrit Literature 15:00 SUHAS MAHESH ? University of Oxford S?t? Strikes Back: A Citrak?vya from the Wodeyar Court 15:30 *tea* *Session 6 *Chair: YAEL SHIRI 16:00 HYOEUN CHO ? University of Bristol What Are the Fundamental Defilements of the Mind: The Systematisation of the List of Mental Defilements (kle?a/kilesa) in P?li Buddhist Texts 16:30 BRYAN DE NOTARIIS ? University of Turin >From the Canon to the Comment: A Development of the Concept of ?iddhi? within the P?li Buddhist Literature 17:00 H?L?NE DE BRUX ? Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t The Dh?ma Episode of the Avad?na?ataka: The Case of an Actorless Miracle in Buddhism *group photo, closing remarks* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 16:17:30 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 21:47:30 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Deshpande, I had expressed my humble suggestion about Radha ji.It's a matter of spiritual bliss and nothing else.As far as I know Radha is worshipped with Krisna everywhere.Your poetry is not a general one but it should be considered a devotional poetry.Hence my advice is not aimed at any narrow thinking but is to deepen the love emotion.A few years back Prof.Rasik vihari Joshi has also written a lot on Radha-Krisna Bhakti.Bhakti poetry has to be preserved within the bounds of Indian Culture.Nothing more to write.All are here Sanskrit Scholars.Jaya Radhe Shyama.Pranamaami punah punah. On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 9:24 PM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Continuing my Krishna verses: > > Krishna says to me: > > ???? ???????????????? ? ??????? ? ???????: ? > ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? > I am not some strange form, remote or mysterious. With a calm mind, you > will see me as I am. > > ???? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?????, ???????? ? > ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???????? ? ??? ?? ??????? > I am the sensation in your heart, your faith and your intelligence. I am > your thought and your movement. How am I not known to you? > > ??????? ??? ????? ?????????? ?? ???? ? > ? ??????? ????????????????? ??: ??????? > Fallen in some difficulty, O friend, when you call me with your words, I > am not far away. I am near you and busy protecting you. > > ?? ??:???? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??? ? > ???????? ??? ???????????? ? ??:?? ? ? ?? ????? ??????? > O friend, I know your sorrows and happiness. In this world, no sorry or > happiness transcends me. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Sep 4 18:27:02 2018 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 18:27:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query Message-ID: I have a citation from what is called ?N?mam?l??. I was unable to find the citation either in the N?mam?l? of Dhana?jaya or of Hemacandra. Is there other N?mam?las out there that I am not aware of? Thanks. Patrick ???????????????? ???????????:? ??? ??????? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Sep 4 19:12:58 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 12:12:58 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A somewhat similar passage [??????????????????????? ???????????:] occurs in Amarako?a, verse 131, K???a 3. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:28 AM Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I have a citation from what is called ?N?mam?l??. I was unable to find the > citation either in the N?mam?l? of Dhana?jaya or of Hemacandra. Is there > other N?mam?las out there that I am not aware of? Thanks. > > Patrick > > > ???????????????? ???????????:? ??? *???????* ? > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 19:31:19 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 13:31:19 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Harunaga Isaacson has kindly informed me that Vimala Karnatak's critical edition of the Yogasiddh?ntacandrika commentary by N?r?ya?at?rtha, published in 2000, is available online. He provided these two links to it: https://ia800808.us.archive.org/3/items/YogaSiddhantaChandrikaVimlaKarnatak/Yoga%20Siddhanta%20Chandrika%20-%20Vimla%20Karnatak.pdf https://ia800107.us.archive.org/19/items/YogaSiddhantaChandrikaNaryanaTirthaVimalaKarnatakChowkambha/Yoga%20Siddhanta%20Chandrika%20Naryana%20Tirtha%20%20Vimala%20Karnatak%20Chowkambha.pdf Sri Shankara provided a link to Sukhlalji's 1922 edition of Ya?ovijaya's Yogas?tra commentary. He pointed out that this v?tti covers only 27 of the 195 s?tras. He reports that Sukhlalji Sanghvi, who edited the book, says in his preface that the v?ttik?ra's intention was to show on which points Jaina Siddh?nta agreed or disagreed with the Vy?sabh??ya. https://jainelibrary.org/book-detail/?srno=007442 Since the Yogas?tra is a text of widespread interest, I post these links here. Thank you to Harunaga Isaacson and Sri Shankara. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 22:38:54 2018 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 18 22:38:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <349679788.1159970.1536100734752@mail.yahoo.com> Jim Nye of the Regenstein Library at the University of Chicago, who got many of the Anandasrama Series books microfilmed, told me that sometimes Anandasrama when doing a second edition of a text, would print a totally new edition rather than reprinting the old one.? David Reigle indicates he checked the reissues of Agase's edition and the different readings are errors stemming from fresh typesetting.? But if one is looking (or searching in online catalogs) other 2nd or further editions of Anandasrama publications, it might be wise to make sure they weren't fresh, independent, editions rather than mere reprintings. Allen On Sunday, September 2, 2018, 3:01:30 PM EDT, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dhaval Patel, If you just want to get an idea of what is in the various commentaries, any edition will do. But if you need to do serious research, commentaries that are well edited and accurately printed are necessary. In the case of the Vy?sa commentary, several editions are available. About the early editions, here is what James Haughton Woods wrote in the Preface to his 1914 English translation (p. xi): "The most accessible and the most carefully elaborated of these books is the one published in the ?nand??rama Series and edited by K???n?tha Sh?str? ?g??e. Variants from twelve manuscripts, mostly southern, are printed at the foot of each page; and Bhojadeva's V?tti is appended; also the text of the s?tras by itself and an index thereto. Another edition, in the Bombay Sanskrit Series, by R?jar?m Sh?str? Bodas, is also an excellent piece of work. I have, however, made use of the edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma (Calcutta, Sa?vat 1947, A.D. 1890; reprinted in Benares A.D. 1908) because it is based on northern manuscripts and because of the valuable notes in the editor's ?ippa?a." The edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma was very hard to find. I finally had a friend make a photocopy of the 1908 reprint at the Harvard University Library, apparently the copy previously used by Woods. The ?nand??rama Series edition has been reprinted several times, but the reprints are re-typeset, introducing new typographical errors. So I photocopied the original 1904 edition at the University of Chicago Library. The original 1892 Bombay Sanskrit Series edition was also hard to find in North America, but I was able to photocopy it from the American Oriental Society Library at the Yale University Library. Scans of all three are posted here, along with a few other commentaries on the Yogas?tras: http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ Since the ?nand??rama Series edition was edited by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??efrom twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes, it is in effect a critical edition. However, the first critical edition that was called such is that by Vimala Karnatak, P?ta?jala-Yoga-Dar?anam, four volumes, Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University & Ratna Publications, 1992. It includes the commentaries by Vy?sa, V?caspati-mi?ra, and Vij??na-bhik?u. It also includes her own Hindi exposition. More recently the first volume of a critical edition by Philipp Maas was published: Sam?dhip?da: das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??strazum ersten Mal kritish ediert = The first chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??strafor the first time critically edited, Aachen: Shaker, 2006. This is a very thorough critical edition of theYogas?tras and Vy?sa's commentary, together forming the P?ta?jalayoga??stra, using all available sources. We anxiously await further volumes of this definitive critical edition. Best regards, David ReigleColorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 10:12 PM Dhaval Patel via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear scholars, I am looking for published commentaries on Yogasutra. The attached work mentioned 21 such published Sanskrit commentaries in bibliography from page 55-57.? I have been able to locate book 3 in this list.?I would appreciate if any scholar can point to pdf or purchasable copy of any of the above work.Also any other Sanskrit commentaries on Yoga works would be welcome. Best wishes_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 02:38:25 2018 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 08:08:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] estampage of Gujjara edict of Ashoka Message-ID: Dear List members I need the estampage of Gujjara edict of Emperor Ashoka. Can you suggest where to search for it? regards Rupali Mokashi *http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 04:54:40 2018 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 13:54:40 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of papers by Katre and Bapat Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am looking for PDF files of the following papers. Could anybody help me by sharing them? It is difficult for me to get the former one through JSTOR. Katre, S.M. 1957 ?On some ?*laukika*? words cited in the commentaries of Cakrap??idatta (on Caraka) and ?alha?a (on Su?ruta)?, *Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute (Poona)* 18, 226-254. Bapat, Purushottam Vishvanath 1978 ?*Nah?ru* (*nh?ru*): *sn?vira*?, in: M. G. Dhadphale (ed.), Principal V. S. Apte Commemoration Volume, Poona 1978, 59?61. With many thanks in advance, Seishi Karashima PDF files of my works are placed on the following websites: https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/staff/karashima/index_karashima.html http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/BLSF/index_BLSF.html http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html http://glossaries.dila.edu.tw/glossaries/DAT http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/990-2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Wed Sep 5 07:08:06 2018 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 07:08:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] estampage of Gujjara edict of Ashoka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to Falk, A?okan Sites and Artefacts, 2006, p. 76, for (a photo of) the estampage you have to contact the Office of the Chief Epigraphist, Mysore, Negative No. 7108, "Gujarra". Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Dr. Rupali Mokashi via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: woensdag 5 september 2018 4:38 Aan: Indology List Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] estampage of Gujjara edict of Ashoka Dear List members I need the estampage of Gujjara edict of Emperor Ashoka. Can you suggest where to search for it? regards Rupali Mokashi http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:09:36 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 13:39:36 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are views ranging from non-recognition of Radha as part of Bhagavata sampradaaya as there is no direct mention of the name in Srimadbhaagavata puraaNa through acceptance of Radha as a concept but from outside Srimadbhaagavata puraaNa and through acceptance of Radha as a concept but from within Srimadbhaagavata puraaNa interpreting a certain event in Rasalila as describing Radha only though name is not mentioned to the view that Sri Krishna can not be without Radha and Radha is superior to Sri Krishna. To my knowledge, in Gaudiya Vaishnava, Radha is taken as the aa*raadhy*ataa /aasvaadyataa in Sri Krishna and hence the idea of Sri Krishna without Radha is a misnomer. ----------------------------------------- Prof. Deshpande , though Maadhva by family tradition, seems to be not following any 'Vaadabheda' to use the frequently used term from many Bhakti poets. ----------- My intention was as Dr B V K Sastry said, not to ask the poet to follow a specific tradition. ---- Prof. Girish Jha too, as can be seen from his mails too saattvika to force any one to do anything. It appears to be his abhinives'a for the primacy of Radha that made him express the way he did. -- Regards, On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 9:47 PM, Girish Jha wrote: > Dear Professor Deshpande, > I had expressed my humble suggestion about Radha ji.It's a matter of > spiritual bliss and nothing else.As far as I know Radha is worshipped with > Krisna everywhere.Your poetry is not a general one but it should be > considered a devotional poetry.Hence my advice is not aimed at any narrow > thinking but is to deepen the love emotion.A few years back Prof.Rasik > vihari Joshi has also written a lot on Radha-Krisna Bhakti.Bhakti poetry > has to be preserved within the bounds of Indian Culture.Nothing more to > write.All are here Sanskrit Scholars.Jaya Radhe Shyama.Pranamaami punah > punah. > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 9:24 PM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> Continuing my Krishna verses: >> >> Krishna says to me: >> >> ???? ???????????????? ? ??????? ? ???????: ? >> ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? >> I am not some strange form, remote or mysterious. With a calm mind, you >> will see me as I am. >> >> ???? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?????, ???????? ? >> ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???????? ? ??? ?? ??????? >> I am the sensation in your heart, your faith and your intelligence. I am >> your thought and your movement. How am I not known to you? >> >> ??????? ??? ????? ?????????? ?? ???? ? >> ? ??????? ????????????????? ??: ??????? >> Fallen in some difficulty, O friend, when you call me with your words, I >> am not far away. I am near you and busy protecting you. >> >> ?? ??:???? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??? ? >> ???????? ??? ???????????? ? ??:?? ? ? ?? ????? ??????? >> O friend, I know your sorrows and happiness. In this world, no sorry or >> happiness transcends me. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "???????????????????" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:31:21 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 16:01:21 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Dharma and Bhakti start from the faith.Only that Tarka[logic] is permissible there which is approved by Veda-Shastras.Tarkaapratisthaanaat.// As far as the Srimad Bhagavata is concerned acc. to Indian Vaisnav Saints Shukadeva ji approached his father Veda Vyasa.He began to narrate the srimadBhagavata and as soon as Radha's name was pronounced Shukadeva reached the stage of Samaadhi.This is why Veda Vyasa removed Radha's name from the SrimadBhagavata.But in several contacts Radha is mentioned indirectly.During the Raasalilaa Gopis, looking for srikrisna, went to the middle part of the forest and found a particular Gopi sitting with tears in her eyes.VedaVyasa sings, " anayaaraadhito nunam Bhagavaan Harir iishvarah/ Yan no vihaaya govindah priityaa taam anayad rahah" Radha's name was removed but the root radh with upasarga "aa"has been used. In some other contexts the word raadhas ha been employed and somewhere Radha is remembered in different styles. In other Puranas such as Padma,Skanda,Brahmavaivarta,DeviBhagavata and the like Radha's name has been directly written.Many Pancharatra texts also read Radha's name directly.The Gargasamhita depicts Radha in detail. Radha and Krisna are anaadisiddha nitya divya dampatii in Goloke.WhenKrishna came to the Martyaloke Radha became the role model for devotion in parakiyaa bhaava. This is why Radha is not married to Krisna.Vaisnavas of different schools consider Radha their svaamini [ aadyaa aachaaryaa]. In the Gagasamhita and some other texts there is a legend that many devotees expressed their desire to marry or embrace sri Ram. He prohibited them as he was Ekapatnivrata and inspired them to come to Dvaapara for Kaantaa bhaava.This is one of various reasons of Krisnaavataara.These things are the matter of firm belief.If you would try to prove these things on logic then the whole theism fall and scatter on the ground. Dear Indologists,I came to know this idea at the lotus feet of old saints.There are many other things and texts which I could not quote for fear of expansion. If my views are not acceptable please excuse me. Iti RadhaKrisnadaasaanudaasakinkarasya Girish Kumar Jha sharmanah. On 9/5/18, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > There are views ranging from > > non-recognition of Radha as part of Bhagavata sampradaaya as there is no > direct mention of the name in Srimadbhaagavata puraaNa > > through acceptance of Radha as a concept but from outside Srimadbhaagavata > puraaNa > > and through acceptance of Radha as a concept but from > within Srimadbhaagavata puraaNa interpreting a certain event in Rasalila > as describing Radha only though name is not mentioned > > to the view that Sri Krishna can not be without Radha and Radha is superior > to Sri Krishna. > > To my knowledge, in Gaudiya Vaishnava, Radha is taken as the aa*raadhy*ataa > /aasvaadyataa in Sri Krishna and hence the idea of Sri Krishna without > Radha is a misnomer. > > ----------------------------------------- > > Prof. Deshpande , though Maadhva by family tradition, seems to be not > following any 'Vaadabheda' to use the frequently used term from many Bhakti > poets. > > ----------- > > My intention was as Dr B V K Sastry said, not to ask the poet to follow a > specific tradition. > > ---- > > Prof. Girish Jha too, as can be seen from his mails too saattvika to force > any one to do anything. > > It appears to be his abhinives'a for the primacy of Radha that made him > express the way he did. > > -- > > Regards, > > > > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 9:47 PM, Girish Jha wrote: > >> Dear Professor Deshpande, >> I had expressed my humble suggestion about Radha ji.It's a matter of >> spiritual bliss and nothing else.As far as I know Radha is worshipped >> with >> Krisna everywhere.Your poetry is not a general one but it should be >> considered a devotional poetry.Hence my advice is not aimed at any narrow >> thinking but is to deepen the love emotion.A few years back Prof.Rasik >> vihari Joshi has also written a lot on Radha-Krisna Bhakti.Bhakti poetry >> has to be preserved within the bounds of Indian Culture.Nothing more to >> write.All are here Sanskrit Scholars.Jaya Radhe Shyama.Pranamaami punah >> punah. >> >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 9:24 PM Madhav Deshpande wrote: >> >>> Continuing my Krishna verses: >>> >>> Krishna says to me: >>> >>> ???? ???????????????? ? ??????? ? ???????: ? >>> ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? >>> I am not some strange form, remote or mysterious. With a calm mind, you >>> will see me as I am. >>> >>> ???? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?????, ???????? ? >>> ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???????? ? ??? ?? ??????? >>> I am the sensation in your heart, your faith and your intelligence. I am >>> your thought and your movement. How am I not known to you? >>> >>> ??????? ??? ????? ?????????? ?? ???? ? >>> ? ??????? ????????????????? ??: ??????? >>> Fallen in some difficulty, O friend, when you call me with your words, I >>> am not far away. I am near you and busy protecting you. >>> >>> ?? ??:???? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??? ? >>> ???????? ??? ???????????? ? ??:?? ? ? ?? ????? ??????? >>> O friend, I know your sorrows and happiness. In this world, no sorry or >>> happiness transcends me. >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> "???????????????????" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an >>> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "???????????????????" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Sep 5 13:35:50 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 06:35:50 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses Krishna says to me: ?????? ??? ??????????? ???????? ??? ?????? ? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? Not knowing me, if you think that I don?t exist, think for a moment as to you impels your thoughts. ??? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ??????? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ???????? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? When you think of me, I am near you. But even if you do not think of me, I am still near you. ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ??????? O friend, you are always in Me and I am always in you. However, your mind, overwhelmed by ignorance, is unable to see the non-difference. ?????? ??: ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ? ??? ?? ????????? ??????????????? ??? ??????? With wisdom, when all the darkness in your mind will disappear, then in the space of your heart, you will always see only Me. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westerhoff at cantab.net Wed Sep 5 13:36:55 2018 From: westerhoff at cantab.net (Jan Westerhoff) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 14:36:55 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New book: Nā gā rjuna's Vaidalyaprakaraṇ a: Crushing the Categories Message-ID: <34024.192.76.8.69.1536154615.squirrel@www.cantab.net> Dear Colleagues, some of you may be interested in this book, which has just come out: Crushing the Categories. Vaidalyaprakaraṇa by Nāgārjuna. Introduction, translation, and commentary by Jan Westerhoff. American Institute of Buddhist Studies / Wisdom Publications 2018, 320 pp, ISBN 978-1-949163-00-1. https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/crushing-categories "The Vaidalyaprakarana provides a rare glimpse of the sophisticated philosophical exchange between Buddhist and non-Buddhist schools at an early stage and will be of interest to scholars of Buddhist thought, classical Indian Philosophy, and the history of Asian thought. Belonging to a set of Nagarjuna?s philosophical works known as the yukti-corpus, the Vaidalyaprakarana is noteworthy for its close engagement with the Hindu philosophers. It refutes the sixteen categories of the Nyaya school, which formed the logical and epistemological framework for many of the debates between Buddhist and Hindu philosophers. The Sanskrit original of the Vaidalyaprakarana long lost, the author translates the text from Tibetan, giving it an extensive analytical commentary. The aim is twofold: to investigate the interaction of the founder of the Madhyamika school with this influential school of Hindu thought; and to make sense of how Nagarjuna?s arguments that refute the Naiyayika categories are essential to the Madhyamika path in general.? ?This translation of Nāgārjuna?s Vaidalyaprakaraṇa is an important contribution to Madhyamaka studies, to our understanding of the history of debates between early Indian Mahāyāna philosophers and their orthodox interlocutors, and to the history of world philosophy generally.? Jay L. Garfield, director, Buddhist studies program and logic program, Smith College Very best wishes Jan Westerhoff ************************** JC Westerhoff Lady Margaret Hall University of Oxford Norham Gardens Oxford OX2 6QA United Kingdom jan.westerhoff at lmh.ox.ac.uk www.janwesterhoff.net From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Wed Sep 5 18:05:16 2018 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 20:05:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How to translate an indological book from French to English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear members of the Indology list, Two years ago, I announced that my book Les math?matiques de l'autel v?dique, Le Baudh?yana ?ulbas?tra et son commentaire ?ulbad?pik?, was published by Droz, Geneva. Since then, some reviews have been written and one of them (see the last sentence of the attached file) insists on the urgence to translate the book into English. But English is not my mother language, and it would be much time-consuming for me to do so. Could anybody propose a solution to this problem ? Of course, I would be very happy to supervise the translation, in order to see if the meaning is well respected. Best regards and thank you for your help, Dr J.M.Delire, Lecturer on Science and Civilization of India - Sanskrit texts at the University of Brussels > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 8-54_15Isiscompterendu.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 48613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 18:14:15 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 23:44:15 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How to translate an indological book from French to English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Google translator gave me the translation of your title as The mathematics of the Vedic altar, Baudh?yana ?ulbas?tra and his comment ?ulbad?pik?, You may use that software On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:35 PM, jmdelire via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear members of the Indology list, > > Two years ago, I announced that my book Les math?matiques de l'autel > v?dique, Le Baudh?yana ?ulbas?tra et son commentaire ?ulbad?pik?, was > published by Droz, Geneva. > Since then, some reviews have been written and one of them (see the last > sentence of the attached file) insists on the urgence to translate the book > into English. But English is not my mother language, and it would be much > time-consuming for me to do so. > Could anybody propose a solution to this problem ? Of course, I would be > very happy to supervise the translation, in order to see if the meaning is > well respected. > > Best regards and thank you for your help, > > Dr J.M.Delire, > Lecturer on Science and Civilization of India - Sanskrit texts at the > University of Brussels > >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 18:54:31 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 18 12:54:31 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Forwarded call for papers Message-ID: >From Prof. Alexander A. Stolyarov . Please contact Prof. Stolyarov for further information. (Note: the proceedings of the first "Open Pages" meeting were published in 2014: Amazon link .) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ?*Open Pages in South Asian Studies - **3**?* The Centre for South-East Asian Studies (CSEAS) and the Department of Foreign Languages, GAUHATI UNIVERSITY, INDIA invites you to participate in the Symposium cum Workshop *?Open Pages in South Asian Studies - 3? *on 22-23 January, 2019 (Tentative) organised in collaboration with International Centre for South Asian Studies and the Faculty of International Relations and Area Studies of the Russian State University for the Humanities, Moscow, Russia *The Event* Though contemporary South Asia comprises of eight countries namely Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, they share a common origin and history as part of the Indus Valley Civilisation. In terms of geographical location, South Asia extends south from the main part of the continent to the Indian Ocean. The principal boundaries of South Asia are the Indian Ocean, the Himalayas, and Afghanistan. The Arabian Sea borders Pakistan and India to the west, and the Bay of Bengal borders India and Bangladesh to the east. The western boundary is the desert region where Pakistan shares a border with Iran. This common geographical location unites these countries politically as a sub-region of Asia. Within this region, two of the world?s great religions namely Hinduism and Buddhism originated, but there are also immense Muslim populations and large groups of followers of various other religions as well. Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism are the three major religions of South Asia. In addition, Sikhism is a major religion in the Punjab region, which is located on India?s northern border with Pakistan. The nature of the political systems in the South Asian countries makes this region even more politically and geo-strategically unique. It has a long history of democratic transition and consolidation along with periodic authoritarian and military rule in the countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Maldives. Though Bhutan is a small country in terms of its territorial size, the innovation of Gross National Happiness (GNH) has drawn considerable global attention towards this region in ensuring and promoting a culture of sustainable development and peace. Ethno-linguistic pluralism is a hallmark of the South Asian countries whereas it is also a prime factor of contentious relations among the member countries and intra-country conflicts in the form sub-nationalist and secessionist movements. The region is also home to the problem of terrorism that has paralysed not only the human and national development, but also has derailed the mutual understanding and harmonious relations of the countries in the region. Besides these, the border conflicts among the South Asian countries make this region more volatile and strategically significant in the contemporary global order. The South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC), mandated to integrate the countries of South Asia politically and economically, has merely failed to bring in the desired results of integration and cooperation due to these contentious relations. Migration across borders has been an issue of contention in the region. Consolidation of the neo-liberal economic policies across the countries in the region has brought both opportunities and challenges. In terms of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), many countries in the region witnessed marked progress. But, this has been accompanied by inequality both in income and in other social security domains. Growth with inequality has brought in popular outrage in the region. Informalization of labour, and growing privatization of essential services added new forms of inequality and insecurity, apart from raising concerns over ecology and common resources. The proposed symposium cum workshop, which will be interdisciplinary in nature, will endeavour to address these critical issues both from the perspective of the respective countries as well as from the perspective of South Asia as a transnational regional entity. *The issues and areas, the Symposium endeavours to deliberate are the following:* 1. Understanding South Asia as a region 2. Cultural realm of South Asia ? Various aspects of Cultural landscapes including religious diversities, linguistic and sociological mosaic. 3. Common Historical Connections- Ancient, Colonial and Post-Colonial Linkages of the South Asian region 4. State processes and development experiences in South Asia 5. South Asian Regionalism and Integration: Trends, Problems and prospects 6. Engaging Russia in South Asia *General Instructions* The Centre for South East Asian Studies and the Department of Foreign Languages, Gauhati University together with the International Centre for South Asian Studies of the Russian State University for the Humanities, the Faculty of International Relations and Area Studies of the Russian State University for the Humanities, are the initiators and organisers of this event. Their aim is *to present the comprehensive image of unknown that is to be discovered and described*. Masters and postgraduate students are also invited to take part in the workshop. Every speaker will be given 15 minutes for his/her presentation, followed by 10-15 minutes for discussion. The working language of the workshop will be English. The workshop will be held at the Gauhati University, Assam, India. Those interested in participating in the Symposium may send their abstracts to: Prof Kandarpa Das, Head, Dept of Foreign Languages, Gauhati University, India *kandarpadas at gauhati.ac.in * *kandarpagu at gmail.com * Prof Nani Gopal Mahanta, Director, Centre for South East Asian Studies, Dept. of Political Science, Gauhati University, India *ngmahanta at gmail.com * Prof Alexander Stolyarov, Director, Centre for South Asian Studies, Russian State University for the Humanities, Moscow *astol007 at gattamelata.com * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 23:47:31 2018 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 08:47:31 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of papers by Katre and Bapat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Thanks to a German colleague, I have obtained a PDF file of Katre?s article. With best regards, Seishi Karashima 2018-09-05 13:54 GMT+09:00 Seishi Karashima : > Dear colleagues, > > I am looking for PDF files of the following papers. Could anybody help > me by sharing them? It is difficult for me to get the former one through > JSTOR. > > Katre, S.M. > > 1957 ?On some ?*laukika*? words cited in the commentaries of > Cakrap??idatta (on Caraka) and ?alha?a (on Su?ruta)?, *Bulletin of the > Deccan College Research Institute (Poona)* 18, 226-254. > > Bapat, Purushottam Vishvanath > > 1978 ?*Nah?ru* (*nh?ru*): *sn?vira*?, in: M. G. Dhadphale (ed.), > Principal V. S. Apte Commemoration Volume, Poona 1978, 59?61. > > > With many thanks in advance, > > Seishi Karashima > > > PDF files of my works are placed on the following websites: > > https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima > > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/staff/karashima/index_karashima.html > > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/BLSF/index_BLSF.html > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/orc/Publications/StPSF/index_StPSF.html > > http://glossaries.dila.edu.tw/glossaries/DAT > > http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/990-2 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Thu Sep 6 00:21:57 2018 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 00:21:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'sma' in Cambodian inscription Message-ID: Dear Colleagues I have received this question from my friend and colleague in Cambodia, Kunthea Chhom, the director of the archaeological museum in Siem Reap. She is working more or less in isolation in Siem Reap, and is a very worthy and grateful recipient of your support. Thanks in advance for your help with this McComas ============ I'm working on a Cambodian inscription of early 7th century in Sanskrit. Below is the reading of a stanza which contains the particle of past tense SMA and its translation: (17)yajv? tray???m iha devat?n?? datv? dhana(?) yo harati sma lobh?t? (18)saha pras?ty? niraye nimajjed ?sa?plav?t sth?varaja?gam?n?? (||) The sacrificer has given here some wealth for/ to the three gods; he who, out of avidity, takes away (this wealth) will fall into hell along with his descendants (saha pras?ty?) from the floating (the rising) of the movable and immovable beings (it means here while other beings are rising, that criminal falls into hell) I find that the use of the particle ?sma? seems abnormal. Grammatically, it is used with a verb in present simple tense to turn it into past simple tense. In a subordination clause like yo harati ?he who takes away?, the present form harati ?takes away? should be preferred to the past form harati sma ?took away?. I would like to know if you have other examples of the particle 'sma' in similar context of the inscription. And how do you explain that? Looking forward to hearing back from you soon. ========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------ McComas Taylor, SFHEA Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179 Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200 [1498624349007_vishnu_small.png] Ask me about my new project: 'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Thu Sep 6 00:52:14 2018 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 00:52:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'sma' in Cambodian inscription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <357B773C-A562-4177-8F52-799566AAB7EB@illinois.edu> Dear McComas, Your colleague might consult works like Kale?s Higher Sanskrit grammar ? Like others, he notes that sma ?is generally used as an expletive? (beside its use with present-tense verbs to indicate past tense), and he notes a special use with m?, for which he actually gives an example (from the R?maya?a): m? sma ?oke mana? k?th?? ?do not turn your mind to sorrow?. So there is a wide use of sma in Classical Sanskrit beyond that as indicating past tense. Note also (from the Nalop?khy?nam) tatra gacchanti r?j?no r?japutra? ca sarva?a? || t?? ratnabh?t?? lokasya pr?rthayatno mah?k?ita? | k??k?anti sma vi?e?e?a ?, where gacchanti (w/o sma) and k??k?anti sma are parallel and hence presumably both in the (historical) present, without any need for assuming specific past-tense value for sma. Best wishes, Hans Henrich On 5 Sep 2018, at 19:21, McComas Taylor via > wrote: Dear Colleagues I have received this question from my friend and colleague in Cambodia, Kunthea Chhom, the director of the archaeological museum in Siem Reap. She is working more or less in isolation in Siem Reap, and is a very worthy and grateful recipient of your support. Thanks in advance for your help with this McComas ============ I'm working on a Cambodian inscription of early 7th century in Sanskrit. Below is the reading of a stanza which contains the particle of past tense SMA and its translation: (17)yajv? tray???m iha devat?n?? datv? dhana(?) yo harati sma lobh?t? (18)saha pras?ty? niraye nimajjed ?sa?plav?t sth?varaja?gam?n?? (||) The sacrificer has given here some wealth for/ to the three gods; he who, out of avidity, takes away (this wealth) will fall into hell along with his descendants (saha pras?ty?) from the floating (the rising) of the movable and immovable beings (it means here while other beings are rising, that criminal falls into hell) I find that the use of the particle ?sma? seems abnormal. Grammatically, it is used with a verb in present simple tense to turn it into past simple tense. In a subordination clause like yo harati ?he who takes away?, the present form harati ?takes away? should be preferred to the past form harati sma ?took away?. I would like to know if you have other examples of the particle 'sma' in similar context of the inscription. And how do you explain that? Looking forward to hearing back from you soon. ========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------ McComas Taylor, SFHEA Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179 Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200 Ask me about my new project: 'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a' _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sprajapati22 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 01:59:42 2018 From: sprajapati22 at yahoo.com (Dr. Sweta Prajapati) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 01:59:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Document from Hi In-Reply-To: <187453378.868145.1536199182164.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <187453378.868145.1536199182164@mail.yahoo.com> Call for Papers.pdf Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CallforPapers.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 194208 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 03:35:11 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 09:05:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5b90a075.1c69fb81.9dbe.ebf8@mx.google.com> Dear Professor DeshpandePranamaami.Yadaa tvam maam-pleased me and your views indicate your emotion influenced by both Advaita and Dvaita Philosophies.The same emotion resides in my mind too,this is why I experience divine pleasure and I then can't stop my tendency to express it.This is the moment in which supernormal state of mind inspires and? instigates you toGift us such a wonderful delight.Vande svabhaavam? Krisnasya? ?rupan chaapi manoharam.Gopikaanaam praanarupam sakhaayan chaapi maadhavam//Chintayaami kave bhuyah kripaasindhuh sa maadhavah./Kaarayed abhiraaman tu kadaa melanam aavayoh//Iti vishayaabhiliptamanasah akalpaniiya niichasya Girish Jhasharmanah// Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY Date: 9/5/18 7:07 PM (GMT+05:30) To: Indology , Bharatiya Vidvat parishad , e-shabda-charcha-peeth , Jayaram Sethuraman , Ranjana Date Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Continuing my Krishna versesKrishna says to me: ?????? ??? ??????????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ???????Not knowing me, if you think that I don?t exist, think for a moment as to you impels your thoughts. ??? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ? ??? ???????? ????? ??????? ?? ???????When you think of me, I am near you. But even if you do not think of me, I am still near you. ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ???????O friend, you are always in Me and I am always in you. However, your mind, overwhelmed by ignorance, is unable to see the non-difference. ?????? ??: ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ??????????????? ??? ???????With wisdom, when all the darkness in your mind will disappear, then in the space of your heart, you will always see only Me. Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbalogh at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 04:57:36 2018 From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?D=C3=A1niel_Balogh?=) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 06:57:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'sma' in Cambodian inscription In-Reply-To: <357B773C-A562-4177-8F52-799566AAB7EB@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <67b2a561-92fb-9472-9307-7f627249857e@gmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hegartyjm at googlemail.com Thu Sep 6 08:10:39 2018 From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 09:10:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Broken Link Message-ID: <61DCD1CD-48E3-40D6-AB6B-FC3A7112A4FE@googlemail.com> Dear Colleagues, I am unable to access Prof. Witzel?s paper on Gandhara and the formation of the Vedic and Zoroastrian Canons from the following link: Gandh?ra and the formation of the Vedic and Zoroastrian canons. Traveaux de symposium international. Le Livre. La Roumanie. L?Europe. Troisi?me edition, 20-24 Septembre 2010. Tome III. Etudes euro- et afro-asiatiques. Bucharest: Biblioth?que de Bucarest 2011: 490- 532. Text of complete book:http://www.bibliotecametropolitana.ro/Uploads/Simpozionul%20International_Cartea_Romania_Europa_III_V3_mic.pdf Does anyone either (a) have the paper in question in electronic form or (b) have a functional link? With Thanks and Best Wishes, James Hegarty Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markandeia at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 08:31:23 2018 From: markandeia at gmail.com (Nataliya Yanchevskaya) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 04:31:23 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Broken Link In-Reply-To: <61DCD1CD-48E3-40D6-AB6B-FC3A7112A4FE@googlemail.com> Message-ID: Dear James, Here you go: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/9887626/Gandh%C4%81ra%20and%20the%20formation%20of%20the%20Vedic%20and%20Zoroastrian%20canons%20copy_0.pdf?sequence=1 Best wishes, Nataliya On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:11 AM James Hegarty via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I am unable to access Prof. Witzel?s paper on Gandhara and the formation > of the Vedic and Zoroastrian Canons from the following link: > > *Gandh?ra and the formation of the Vedic and Zoroastrian canons. Traveaux > de symposium international. Le Livre. La Roumanie. L?Europe. Troisi?me > edition, 20-24 Septembre 2010. Tome III. Etudes euro- et afro-asiatiques. > Bucharest: Biblioth?que de Bucarest 2011: 490- 532. Text of complete > book:http://www.bibliotecametropolitana.ro/Uploads/Simpozionul%20International_Cartea_Romania_Europa_III_V3_mic.pdf > * > > Does anyone either (a) have the paper in question in electronic form or > (b) have a functional link? > > With Thanks and Best Wishes, > > James Hegarty > Cardiff University > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Thu Sep 6 13:03:17 2018 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Prof. Dr. Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 15:03:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Message-ID: http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html (? of course including the Mattur myth.) -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institute of Indology and Tibetology Department of Asian Studies Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU) Germany From christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at Thu Sep 6 13:45:12 2018 From: christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at (Christian Ferstl) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 15:45:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The complete speech (and all previous Mann Ki Baat recordings) can be streamed from this site: http://pmonradio.nic.in/# Christian Ferstl University of Vienna Am 06.09.2018 15:03, schrieb Prof. Dr. Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY: > http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html > > (? of course including the Mattur myth.) > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Institute of Indology and Tibetology > Department of Asian Studies > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU) > Germany > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From dshevchenko at unm.edu Thu Sep 6 13:50:10 2018 From: dshevchenko at unm.edu (Dimitry Shevchenko) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 13:50:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: International Academics Condemn Assault on Freedom of Thought by the Indian State Message-ID: Dear all, I'm forwarding an email regarding the recent crack-down on intellectuals and human rights activists in India. Best, Dimitry Shevchenko From: "Steur, Luisa" > Subject: [Antr] FW: International Academics Condemn Assault on Freedom of Thought by the Indian State Date: 4 September 2018 at 22:18:37 CEST To: "antr at list.uva.nl" > Dear all, There's a rather terrifying crack-down going on in India by the BJP government on intellectuals, lawyers and human rights activists and I now hear that two scholars who I've worked closely with and who are among the most important Dalit-Leftist intellectuals in India today have been directly targetted. Please consider signing the petition: https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/international-academics-1?source=c.em.mt&r_by=20660718 Luisa Dr. Luisa Steur | Assistant Professor | Department of Anthropology | University of Amsterdam | REC B.5.07 ________________________________ From: Shah,AM [A.M.Shah at lse.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 10:05 PM Subject: International Academics Condemn Assault on Freedom of Thought by the Indian State Dear Friends and Colleagues https://petitions.moveon.org/sign/international-academics-1?source=c.em.mt&r_by=20660718 Please consider signing this petition concerning the recent raids and arrests of intellectuals, lawyers, human rights activists in India, events which are truly terrifying. This one focuses on Dalit academics Professor K Satyanarayan and Professor Anand Teltumbde both of who, as some of you may recall, were guests of our LSE-SOAS December conference of ?Ground Down by Growth?. Sudha Bhardwaj who has been arrested was also invited (though could not come). Gautam Navlakha who has also been arrested was our guest for an earlier scholarly conference. International solidarity and petitions do, I think, sometimes make a difference and hopefully this is one of those moments. With thanks and apologies for any cross postings. Alpa Background INTERNATIONAL ACADEMICS CONDEMN ASSAULT ON FREEDOM OF THOUGHT BY THE INDIAN STATE ?Across India on Tuesday [Aug 28, 2018], from New Delhi to Hyderabad to Ranchi, police officers carried out similar raids on the homes of at least a half-dozen activists, writers and lawyers. All were known for supporting resistance movements and marginalized groups, or for speaking out against the government.? (The New York Times, Aug 31, 2018) Two prominent academics of international repute, Professors K. Satyanaryana and Anand Teltumbde were targeted by the Indian police force because of their activism and Dalit background. In each case, police have unlawfully entered, searched, and seized private property. This follows a pattern of targeted assaults on, and violence against Dalit and Tribal activists and writers. Not since the time of the National Emergency (1975-77) has India witnessed such an extensive and coordinated attack on Indian civil actors. Dr. K. Satyanarayana, Professor of Cultural Studies and Dean, School of Interdisciplinary Studies, has made seminal contribution to the study of caste and to the field of Dalit Studies. The Indian police conducted an illegal raid on Dr. Satyanarayana?s house under the pretext of searching for his father-in-law, the renowned poet and activist, Varavara Rao, who was already under police custody. The Indian police entered his house without any search warrant and chastised Dr. Satyanarayana and his wife for not having any pictures of Hindu gods on their walls. They demanded to know why Dr. Satyanarayana read books by Marx and Ambedkar. The police seized three laptops, hard drives, pen drives, research material, and books. Dr. Satyanarayana?s thirty years of research is now in danger of being completely destroyed. His prominent books include, Dalit Writings in South India: No Alphabet in Sight, 2011; Steel Nibs are Sprouting, 2013; and Dalit Studies, 2016. In January 2018, Dr. Satyanaryana organized the Dalit Studies conference at CSDS, Delhi, together with a group of scholars. Dr. Anand Teltumbde, Senior Professor and Chair Big Data Analytics at the Goa Institute of Management, India, is among India?s most important public intellectuals writing on Dalit issues today. An alumnus of IIM Ahmedabad and well-known human right activist and a regular commentator in Indian media, Professor Teltumbde has published books and articles on Dalit related issues. His prominent books include, The Persistence of Caste: The Khairlanji Murders and India?s Hidden Apartheid, 2010; Hindutva and Dalits, 2017. He is a regular contributor to the renowned journal, The Economic and Political Weekly. The police broke into his house even though his entire family was away. The police also seized Professor Teltumbde?s computer, research materials, and books. As academics from across the world?the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Europe, Singapore, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, and Africa?we are distressed and deeply concerned about this assault on Indian academics belonging to the Dalit community. If India is to remain the world?s largest democracy in any meaningful sense, it is incumbent on the current government in India to observe the rule of law and respect citizens? right to freedom of thought, religion, and speech. We oppose and protest the concerted attack on academic freedom and progressive traditions within Indian universities that the Indian government led by Prime Minister Narender Modi has launched. We demand that personal belongings and research materials which were illegally seized by the police be returned immediately to Professors Satyanarayana and Teltumbde. We condemn the targeting of individuals under spurious charges of anti-national activity. We demand that the other activists who have been detained should be immediately released from the custody in which they are unlawfully and unjustly held. Signed, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Sep 6 17:30:16 2018 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 19:30:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Sanskrit forgeries of Senarat Paranavitana Message-ID: Dear List, The following 1994 article by Ananda W.P. Guruge: "Senarat Paranavitana as a writer of historical fiction in Sanskrit" http://dr.lib.sjp.ac.lk/bitstream/handle/123456789/696/Senarat%20Paranavitana%20as%20a%20writer%20of%20historical%20fiction%20in%20Sanskrit.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y (from the digital repository of the University of Sri Jayewardenepura: http://dr.lib.sjp.ac.lk ) clearly shows the fakeness of the mysterious sources "recovered" by the great Srilankan historian and epigraphist S. Paranavitana (1896-1972) at the end of his career (for earlier, more serious, references by the same, see: http://www.sards.uni-halle.de/?do=query s.v. "Paranavitana" and "Paranavitana, Senerat [sic] or Senarat", https://books.google.com/books?id=5Xk_AQAAIAAJ - or JRAS 88, 1956, pp. 237-40, and 89, 1957, pp. 213-4 , about the Pan?ka?uva copper-plate of Vijayab?hu I... as... a forgery - his complete bibliography is given in his 1978 Commemoration volume pp. 1-19: https://books.google.com/books?id=OIceAAAAIAAJ ), provided and used in his 1964-72 books such as https://archive.org/details/TheGreeksAndTheMauryasSParanavitana https://archive.org/details/TheGreeksAndTheMauryasSParanavitana_201807 https://books.google.com/books?id=y2lXAAAAMAAJ https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Story_of_Sigiri.html?id=lo0cAAAAMAAJ https://books.google.com/books?id=eaBcaFNjkOEC (I noted also his article "Newly discovered historical documents relating to Ceylon, India and South-East Asia" issued in The Buddhist Yearly (Halle = Jahrbuch f?r buddhistische Forschungen / Buddhist Centre Halle, Arbeitsgemeinschaft f?r Buddhistische Forschungen in der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik), 1967, pp. 26-58, or articles on "A Greek prince who was a Buddhist missionary" (item 287 in the B., 1969), and on "Traditions about K?lid?sa that were prevalent in ?r?vijaya" (it. 296, 1970).) It sometimes misled scholars: so V. Raghavan in his foreword to C.R. Swaminathan's J?nak?hara?a of Kum?rad?sa (1977, pp. vii) and S. Lienhard about the same mah?k?vya in A History of Classical Poetry (p. 197-8 and fn. 134) https://archive.org/stream/AHistoryOfIndianLiterature.Vol.IIIFasc.1.AHistoryOfClassicalPoetrySanskritPaliPrakrit.S.Lienhard/A%20history%20of%20Indian%20literature.%20Vol.%20III%2C%20fasc.1.%20A%20history%20of%20classical%20poetry%20Sanskrit-Pali-Prakrit.%20S.Lienhard#page/n207 In the latter case, Raghavan and Lienhard rely on Paranavitana's introduction to the Srilankan 1967 critical edition of the JH (the critical edition itself, made with C. E. Godakumbura, appears not affected by the forgery): https://archive.org/stream/JanakiharanaOfKumaradasaParanavitanaS.GodukumburaC.E./Janakiharana%20of%20Kumaradasa%20Paranavitana%20S.%20Godukumbura%20C.E.#page/n51 The passage invoking a new source being "the continuation of the Suvar??apurava??a" starts on p. lxi - cf. also p. lxv about the Para?parapustaka and the "other" (invented) lost mah?k?vya of Kum?rad?sa entitled ?r?ghanananda. I would be interested to know if other scholars have been mislead by Paranavitana's forgeries (not yet openly claimed as such at the time of his 1978 Commemoration Volume, even if the end of his obituary p. xi seems to not take seriously the results of his last reinterpretation of the history of Sri Lanka on the basis of the "so-called interlinear inscriptions", which rather demonstrate his "highly imaginative mind"). I just discover, through SARDS, Paranavitana's posthumous reference (not included in his 1978 bibliography): "The Dhvanik?rik?s in fifteenth century Ceylon, in: Journal of the American Oriental Society", 94, 1974, S. 131-13 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/599740 ) which obviously is another example of his forgeries (like for Kum?rad?sa, it aims to establish Paranavitana's own views in literary history). Best wishes, Christophe ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pf8 at soas.ac.uk Thu Sep 6 17:46:43 2018 From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 18:46:43 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers - 21st Jaina Studies Workshop at SOAS 22-23 March 2019 on Jainism and Money Message-ID: Dear Friends, Please take note of the call for papers on the above mentioned topic. Offers should be sent to: pf8 at soas.ac.uk Whoever wishes to attend the conference only as a listener please RSVP: centres at soas.ac.uk Coffee and vegetarian lunch will be provided. with best wishes Peter Fl?gel -- Dr Peter Fl?gel Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies Department of History, Religions and Philosophies School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aryadeva at uchicago.edu Thu Sep 6 22:05:12 2018 From: aryadeva at uchicago.edu (Christian Wedemeyer) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 18 22:05:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Position: South Asian Humanities Message-ID: <8C8CF8E4-BE0A-48A8-8B61-34F0F18AA565@uchicago.edu> Assistant Professor of South Asian Humanities The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at The University of Chicago invites applications for a tenure-track position at the level of Assistant Professor in the field of the South Asian humanities, preferably to begin July 1, 2019, or as soon as possible thereafter. We seek to appoint a junior scholar possessing field-leading empirical and theoretical interests and abilities, who will significantly contribute to current and future debates within the field of South Asian area studies, and who will be able to articulate how the goals of humanistic learning may be conceived from the perspective of the region. The area of specialization is open, but the Department especially welcomes applicants whose work focuses on the practice of multilingual philology, or those interested in humanistically inclined social science approaches to South Asia. Similarly, while no particular areas of language competence are specified, the successful candidate will be able to offer advanced language courses in one or more South Asian languages, possess superior skills in reading primary source texts, and be able to guide doctoral research in these areas. We are especially interested in candidates who can complement our existing strengths in Bangla, Hindi, Marathi, Sanskrit, Tamil, Tibetan, and Urdu, whether through enhancing these, or offering new areas of regional and language expertise. Applicants should be prepared to teach in UChicago's undergraduate College and to offer graduate courses in their area of specialization. The teaching load for tenure track positions is typically four courses per year; additional responsibilities include advising at all levels of the program as well as service on departmental and university committees. Candidates must submit a CV, a cover letter addressing current research and teaching interests, an article or chapter-length writing sample, and an abstract of a book or dissertation project to the Academic Careers website at https://academiccareers.uchicago.edu for posting #03871. In addition, the names, affiliations, and email addresses of three referees must be submitted with the application materials. A PhD is required by the start of the appointment. All requests for further information may be directed to salcsearches at lists.uchicago.edu. All application materials must be submitted by October 15, 2018. The position is contingent upon final budgetary approval. The University of Chicago is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity/Disabled/Veterans Employer and does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national or ethnic origin, age, status as an individual with a disability, protected veteran status, genetic information, or other protected classes under the law. For additional information please see the University's Notice of Nondiscrimination at http://www.uchicago.edu/about/non_discrimination_statement/. Job seekers in need of a reasonable accommodation to complete the application process should call 773-702-0287 or email ACOppAdministrator at uchicago.eduwith their request. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gvvajrac at wisc.edu Fri Sep 7 06:00:01 2018 From: gvvajrac at wisc.edu (GAUTAMA V VAJRACHARYA) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 06:00:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nepal Era and Vikrama era Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Attached herewith is my recent work on the origin of Nepal Samvat and Vikrama Samvat. Hope you find it interesting. Gautama -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MaheshChandra2018.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2575076 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 16:54:26 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 18:54:26 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for pdf Message-ID: Dear Friends, Our Special Collections library has the following: Peterson, Peter. 1887. ?A Third Report of Operations in Search of Sanskrit Mss. in the Bombay Circle April 1884-March 1886.? Extra Number of the *Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society*. Bombay: Society's Library, Town Hall/London: Tr?bner & Co., 1887. What they do not have is 1, 2, or 4 of this series. If anyone would know where I might find these, ideally digitally (and again ideally, digital versions of 3, 5, 6, since it is of course forbidden to photocopy them...), that would be great. And while I am asking... On Archive.org I found: Bhandarkar, Ramkrishna Gopal. 1887. ?Report on the Search For Sanskrit Manuscripts In the Bombay Presidency during the year 1883?84.? Unfortunately, the scan is so incredibly bad that it is very next to useless. Anyone possessing a readable scan... Well, I know that this is an ongoing issue (think for instance the old issues of the Journal Asiatique on the Gallica site, virtually useless in their entirety...) Just thought I'd ask, Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 17:08:27 2018 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 19:08:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for pdf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, See the magnificent resource set up by Dominik Wujastyk: http://catalogues.indology.info/ Peterson's catalogues are Biswas 0857. Best. -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis Le ven. 7 sept. 2018 ? 18:55, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > Dear Friends, > > Our Special Collections library has the following: > > Peterson, Peter. 1887. ?A Third Report of Operations in Search of > Sanskrit Mss. in the Bombay Circle April 1884-March 1886.? Extra Number of > the *Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society*. Bombay: > Society's Library, Town Hall/London: Tr?bner & Co., 1887. > What they do not have is 1, 2, or 4 of this series. If anyone would know > where I might find these, ideally digitally (and again ideally, digital > versions of 3, 5, 6, since it is of course forbidden to photocopy them...), > that would be great. > > And while I am asking... > On Archive.org I found: > > Bhandarkar, Ramkrishna Gopal. 1887. ?Report on the Search For Sanskrit > Manuscripts In the Bombay Presidency during the year 1883?84.? > Unfortunately, the scan is so incredibly bad that it is very next to > useless. Anyone possessing a readable scan... > > Well, I know that this is an ongoing issue (think for instance the old > issues of the Journal Asiatique on the Gallica site, virtually useless in > their entirety...) > > Just thought I'd ask, > > Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 17:32:38 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 11:32:38 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Sanskrit forgeries of Senarat Paranavitana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Coningham 1996 ("Passage to India? Anuradhapura and the Early Use of the Brahmi Script" DOI ) cites two Paranavitana publications. I haven't yet read the Coningham article specifically to see whether he has been misled. -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 11:31, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear List, > > The following 1994 article by Ananda W.P. Guruge: > "Senarat Paranavitana as a writer of historical fiction in Sanskrit" > > http://dr.lib.sjp.ac.lk/bitstream/handle/123456789/696/Senarat%20Paranavitana%20as%20a%20writer%20of%20historical%20fiction%20in%20Sanskrit.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y > (from the digital repository of the University of Sri Jayewardenepura: > http://dr.lib.sjp.ac.lk ) > clearly shows the fakeness of the mysterious sources "recovered" by the > great Srilankan historian and epigraphist S. Paranavitana (1896-1972) at > the end of his career (for earlier, more serious, references by the same, > see: > http://www.sards.uni-halle.de/?do=query s.v. "Paranavitana" and > "Paranavitana, Senerat [sic] or Senarat", > https://books.google.com/books?id=5Xk_AQAAIAAJ - or JRAS 88, 1956, pp. > 237-40, and 89, 1957, pp. 213-4 , about the Pan?ka?uva copper-plate of > Vijayab?hu I... as... a forgery - his complete bibliography is given in his > 1978 Commemoration volume pp. 1-19: > https://books.google.com/books?id=OIceAAAAIAAJ), > provided and used in his 1964-72 books such as > https://archive.org/details/TheGreeksAndTheMauryasSParanavitana > https://archive.org/details/TheGreeksAndTheMauryasSParanavitana_201807 > https://books.google.com/books?id=y2lXAAAAMAAJ > > https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Story_of_Sigiri.html?id=lo0cAAAAMAAJ > > https://books.google.com/books?id=eaBcaFNjkOEC > (I noted also his article "Newly discovered historical documents relating > to Ceylon, India and South-East Asia" issued in *The Buddhist Yearly *(Halle > = Jahrbuch f?r buddhistische Forschungen / *Buddhist* Centre Halle, > Arbeitsgemeinschaft f?r Buddhistische Forschungen in der Deutschen > Demokratischen Republik), 1967, pp. 26-58, or articles on "A Greek prince > who was a Buddhist missionary" (item 287 in the B., 1969), and on > "Traditions about K?lid?sa that were prevalent in ?r?vijaya" (it. 296, > 1970).) > > It sometimes misled scholars: so V. Raghavan in his foreword to C.R. > Swaminathan's *J?nak?hara?a of Kum?rad?sa* (1977, pp. vii) and S. > Lienhard about the same *mah**?**k**?**vya* in *A History of Classical > Poetry* (p. 197-8 and fn. 134) > > https://archive.org/stream/AHistoryOfIndianLiterature.Vol.IIIFasc.1.AHistoryOfClassicalPoetrySanskritPaliPrakrit.S.Lienhard/A%20history%20of%20Indian%20literature.%20Vol.%20III%2C%20fasc.1.%20A%20history%20of%20classical%20poetry%20Sanskrit-Pali-Prakrit.%20S.Lienhard#page/n207 > In the latter case, Raghavan and Lienhard rely on Paranavitana's > introduction to the Srilankan 1967 critical edition of the JH (the critical > edition itself, made with C. E. Godakumbura, appears not affected by the > forgery): > > https://archive.org/stream/JanakiharanaOfKumaradasaParanavitanaS.GodukumburaC.E./Janakiharana%20of%20Kumaradasa%20Paranavitana%20S.%20Godukumbura%20C.E.#page/n51 > The passage invoking a new source being "the continuation of the > *Suvar??apurava??a*" starts on p. lxi - cf. also p. lxv about the > *Para?parapustaka* and the "other" (invented) lost *mah**?**k**?**vya* > of Kum?rad?sa entitled > *?r?ghanananda*. > > I would be interested to know if other scholars have been mislead by > Paranavitana's forgeries (not yet openly claimed as such at the time of his > 1978 Commemoration Volume, even if the end of his obituary p. xi seems to > not take seriously the results of his last reinterpretation of the history > of Sri Lanka on the basis of the "so-called interlinear inscriptions", > which rather demonstrate his "highly imaginative mind"). > I just discover, through SARDS, Paranavitana's posthumous reference (not > included in his 1978 bibliography): "The Dhvanik?rik?s in fifteenth > century Ceylon, in: Journal of the American Oriental Society", 94, 1974, S. > 131-13 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/599740 ) which obviously is another > example of his forgeries (like for Kum?rad?sa, it aims to establish > Paranavitana's own views in literary history). > > Best wishes, > > Christophe > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 18:00:14 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 20:00:14 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for pdf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm ashamed; I knew of Dominik's page, but missed the references there to Peterson--shame on me! thank you, Christophe and Manu! As for the Bhandarkar, unfortunately that is the list published in 1884, not the 1887 publication of his 1884 search. Jonathan On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Manu Francis wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > See the magnificent resource set up by Dominik Wujastyk: > http://catalogues.indology.info/ > Peterson's catalogues are Biswas 0857. > > Best. > > -- > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, > Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis > > > Le ven. 7 sept. 2018 ? 18:55, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Our Special Collections library has the following: >> >> Peterson, Peter. 1887. ?A Third Report of Operations in Search of >> Sanskrit Mss. in the Bombay Circle April 1884-March 1886.? Extra Number of >> the *Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society*. Bombay: >> Society's Library, Town Hall/London: Tr?bner & Co., 1887. >> What they do not have is 1, 2, or 4 of this series. If anyone would know >> where I might find these, ideally digitally (and again ideally, digital >> versions of 3, 5, 6, since it is of course forbidden to photocopy them...), >> that would be great. >> >> And while I am asking... >> On Archive.org I found: >> >> Bhandarkar, Ramkrishna Gopal. 1887. ?Report on the Search For Sanskrit >> Manuscripts In the Bombay Presidency during the year 1883?84.? >> Unfortunately, the scan is so incredibly bad that it is very next to >> useless. Anyone possessing a readable scan... >> >> Well, I know that this is an ongoing issue (think for instance the old >> issues of the Journal Asiatique on the Gallica site, virtually useless in >> their entirety...) >> >> Just thought I'd ask, >> >> Jonathan >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgalasek at googlemail.com Fri Sep 7 20:01:31 2018 From: bgalasek at googlemail.com (Bruno Galasek) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 13:01:31 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Message-ID: http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html A ruse to justify continuing the use of coal, I assume. Perhaps the BJP-version of "climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals." (You know who) https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/08/02/india-shows-how-hard-it-is-to-move-beyond-fossil-fuels B. Galasek-Hul -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From audrey.truschke at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:20:02 2018 From: audrey.truschke at gmail.com (Audrey Truschke) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 16:20:02 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indologist featured in Amnesty International's campaign: Make Online Spaces Safe for Women Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am writing to share a recent venture of mine, which is not scholarly per se but certainly has strong implications for my scholarly activities - Amnesty International's campaign 'Make Online Spaces Safe for Women' (pdf attached; also link ). The campaign is specifically focused on India. As part of the project, Amnesty International did interviews with nine women who have faced particularly vitriolic attacks on social media, and I am one of the nine. I think this is relevant to Indology as a discipline as many of us face increasingly vehement attacks online. As we saw recently at the World Sanskrit Conference in Vancouver, inappropriate attacks - gendered and otherwise - can also happen in person. Sometimes threatened violence becomes real. Scholars, activists, and students have been the targets of violent assaults recently in India. I hope that some find this interesting and worth a few minutes of your time. Audrey Truschke Assistant Professor Department of History Rutgers University-Newark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MAS_Book_02FINALreducedsize.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 3141472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:23:23 2018 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 16:23:23 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: India's Modi = USA's Trump. Clueless. It's time to get rid of them. G. Thompson On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:02 PM Bruno Galasek via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html > > A ruse to justify continuing the use of coal, I assume. Perhaps the > BJP-version of "climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals." (You > know who) > > https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/08/02/india-shows-how-hard-it-is-to-move-beyond-fossil-fuels > > B. Galasek-Hul > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:41:33 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 14:41:33 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request for pdf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peterson's Reports 1-6 are at catalogues.indology.info (#0857) -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 7 Sep 2018 at 10:55, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Our Special Collections library has the following: > > Peterson, Peter. 1887. ?A Third Report of Operations in Search of > Sanskrit Mss. in the Bombay Circle April 1884-March 1886.? Extra Number of > the *Journal of the Bombay Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society*. Bombay: > Society's Library, Town Hall/London: Tr?bner & Co., 1887. > What they do not have is 1, 2, or 4 of this series. If anyone would know > where I might find these, ideally digitally (and again ideally, digital > versions of 3, 5, 6, since it is of course forbidden to photocopy them...), > that would be great. > > And while I am asking... > On Archive.org I found: > > Bhandarkar, Ramkrishna Gopal. 1887. ?Report on the Search For Sanskrit > Manuscripts In the Bombay Presidency during the year 1883?84.? > Unfortunately, the scan is so incredibly bad that it is very next to > useless. Anyone possessing a readable scan... > > Well, I know that this is an ongoing issue (think for instance the old > issues of the Journal Asiatique on the Gallica site, virtually useless in > their entirety...) > > Just thought I'd ask, > > Jonathan > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Sep 7 21:42:16 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 18 14:42:16 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses Krishna says to me: ?????? ???????? ?????????????? ? ????? ?? ????? ???????????? ??? ??????? ??????? This world resides only in Me in a seed form, and it arises from Me, and it certainly returns to Me. ??? ?????? ????????? ??????? ???????????? ? ??? ???? ????????? ????????? ??? ???? ??????? The whole circle of the universe, with its sun, moon and stars resides in Me. Without Me, how will this wheel of the universe turn? ??????? ??????????????????? ???????: ? ???????? ???????? ????????? ? ????: ??????? I am the truth and I am the peace. Being one, I am in many places. I am the devotion and strength. I am you. Let there be no doubt. ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ????????????? ???????? ? ??? ???????????????? ???????? ????????????? ?? ????? O friend, even if you do not see Me, I do see you. Watching over you, how will I leave you unprotected? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 03:59:36 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 09:29:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For some, Sanskrit , not some specific portions of its literature, is toxic. For some, Sanskrit, not some specific portions of its literature is amrita, ambrosia, nectar , a panacea. Prof. David Shulman said, " Even in Sanskrit, it?s a misconception, I think, that Sanskrit is built around this notion of tremendous power and inequality. There?s an aspect of that, but I certainly wouldn?t think of that as its major feature. Sanskrit?s a language, like any language. Everything is in it. All of human life is in it! " in https://nikhiletc.wordpress.com/2017/07/01/music-culture-his tory-a-conversation-with-david-shulman/ -------------------------------------------------------- With regards to environmentalist understanding in Sanskrit, you have in Gita: ??? ?????????? ????? ???????????? ?? ? ??????????????????? ???? ????? ? ????? ? ?-??? Those who do not follow/live as per the ecological cycle, such sensualists are paapajeevis and they live a vain life (experiencing the harmful consequences of not following the eco-cycle) ---------------------- ???????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ? ???? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ? ?-??? ??????????????? ?? ???? ???????? ?? ? ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ? ?-??? ??????????????? ?? ???? ????????? ??????????? ? ????????????????????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?? ? ?-??? Creator , in the beginning created human beings along with the (eco-friendly/nature nourishing/)sacrificial rituals and said through these rituals get what you want; these fulfil whatever you want Through these nourish and nurture the devas (nature forces) and they nourish and nurture you back. Thus 'treating' each other both you humans and the nature forces , may you achieve the best of the welfare Luxuries and pleasures that you want/like are provided by the devas (nature forces) who get treated by your eco-friendly/nature nourishing/sacrificial organised actions; thus enjoy all the luxuries provided by them. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- The Mann Ki Bath report by the news portal highlights one aspect of many praises of Modi for Sanskrit. That praise has a context. Sanskrit week celebration. A girl calls him from Bengaluru and speaks in Sanskrit. --------------------------------------------------------- Modi recently said that Tamil is the most ancient Indian language and received bashing from those who believe that Sanskrit of the Vedas, not Tamil , is the most ancient language of India. ------------- That article on coal has in fact some statements criticising Modi taking the side of renewable energy sources. Modi appears in that article in India has plans for alternative means of generating electricity. Even before the Paris summit, Narendra Modi, the prime minister, aimed to install 175 gigawatts (GW) of renewable-energy capacity by 2022, a vast increase from today. That has now risen to 227GW. and Mr Modi may have thrown his weight behind solar and wind but, until other forms of backup power, such as storage, become cheaper, the system will still need coal to keep the lights on. ------ The links provided show that the article, not Modi or BJP, is in support of continuing the use of coal. The links do not substantiate that Modi or BJP have the view that "Climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals ". On the contrary, the first link provided proves that Modi considers climate change is a problem and considers that texts in Sanskrit have a solution for it. On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Bruno Galasek via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle- > climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html > > A ruse to justify continuing the use of coal, I assume. Perhaps the > BJP-version of "climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals." (You > know who) > https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/08/02/india- > shows-how-hard-it-is-to-move-beyond-fossil-fuels > > B. Galasek-Hul > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 07:01:00 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 09:01:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: May I make a plea, please? I think all discussions of Sanskrit and Indology-related topics are appropriate and welcome here. I think discussions of world leaders (or non-leaders) when the topic does not bear on Indology or Sanskrit (Tamil etc) are not appropriate here, no matter how passionate you may be about that. There are plenty of other fora for that. Thank you keeping this a "safe space" for Indology (the scare-quoted expression was meant as a little joke...) Jonathan On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 5:59 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > For some, Sanskrit , not some specific portions of its literature, is > toxic. > > For some, Sanskrit, not some specific portions of its literature is > amrita, ambrosia, nectar , a panacea. > > Prof. David Shulman said, " Even in Sanskrit, it?s a misconception, I > think, that Sanskrit is built around this notion of tremendous power and > inequality. There?s an aspect of that, but I certainly wouldn?t think of > that as its major feature. Sanskrit?s a language, like any language. > Everything is in it. All of human life is in it! " > > in > > https://nikhiletc.wordpress.com/2017/07/01/music-culture-his > tory-a-conversation-with-david-shulman/ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > With regards to environmentalist understanding in Sanskrit, you have in > Gita: > > ??? ?????????? ????? ???????????? ?? ? > > ??????????????????? ???? ????? ? ????? ? ?-??? > Those who do not follow/live as per the ecological cycle, such sensualists > are paapajeevis and they live a vain life (experiencing the harmful > consequences of not following the eco-cycle) > > ---------------------- > > ???????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ? > > ???? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ? ?-??? > > > > ??????????????? ?? ???? ???????? ?? ? > > ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ? ?-??? > > > > ??????????????? ?? ???? ????????? ??????????? ? > > ????????????????????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?? ? ?-??? > > > Creator , in the beginning created human beings along with the > (eco-friendly/nature nourishing/)sacrificial rituals and said through these > rituals get what you want; these fulfil whatever you want > > Through these nourish and nurture the devas (nature forces) and they > nourish and nurture you back. Thus 'treating' each other both you humans > and the nature forces , may you achieve the best of the welfare > > Luxuries and pleasures that you want/like are provided by the devas > (nature forces) who get treated by your eco-friendly/nature > nourishing/sacrificial organised actions; thus enjoy all the luxuries > provided by them. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------------------------------------- > The Mann Ki Bath report by the news portal highlights one aspect of many > praises of Modi for Sanskrit. That praise has a context. Sanskrit week > celebration. A girl calls him from Bengaluru and speaks in Sanskrit. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Modi recently said that Tamil is the most ancient Indian language and > received bashing from those who believe that Sanskrit of the Vedas, not > Tamil , is the most ancient language of India. > > ------------- > > That article on coal has in fact some statements criticising Modi taking > the side of renewable energy sources. > > Modi appears in that article in > > India has plans for alternative means of generating electricity. Even > before the Paris summit, Narendra Modi, the prime minister, aimed to > install 175 gigawatts (GW) of renewable-energy capacity by 2022, a vast > increase from today. That has now risen to 227GW. > and > > Mr Modi may have thrown his weight behind solar and wind but, until other > forms of backup power, such as storage, become cheaper, the system will > still need coal to keep the lights on. > > ------ > > The links provided show that the article, not Modi or BJP, is in support > of continuing the use of coal. The links do not substantiate that Modi or > BJP have the view that "Climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals > ". On the contrary, the first link provided proves that Modi considers > climate change is a problem and considers that texts in Sanskrit have a > solution for it. > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Bruno Galasek via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> >> http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate- >> change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html >> >> A ruse to justify continuing the use of coal, I assume. Perhaps the >> BJP-version of "climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals." (You >> know who) >> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/08/02/india-shows- >> how-hard-it-is-to-move-beyond-fossil-fuels >> >> B. Galasek-Hul >> -- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 07:09:01 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 12:39:01 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Prof. Silk for bringing this alert that can avoid the initiation of such threads as is the present one. On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 12:31 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > May I make a plea, please? > I think all discussions of Sanskrit and Indology-related topics are > appropriate and welcome here. > I think discussions of world leaders (or non-leaders) when the topic does > not bear on Indology or Sanskrit (Tamil etc) are not appropriate here, no > matter how passionate you may be about that. There are plenty of other fora > for that. > Thank you keeping this a "safe space" for Indology (the scare-quoted > expression was meant as a little joke...) > > Jonathan > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 5:59 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> For some, Sanskrit , not some specific portions of its literature, is >> toxic. >> >> For some, Sanskrit, not some specific portions of its literature is >> amrita, ambrosia, nectar , a panacea. >> >> Prof. David Shulman said, " Even in Sanskrit, it?s a misconception, I >> think, that Sanskrit is built around this notion of tremendous power and >> inequality. There?s an aspect of that, but I certainly wouldn?t think of >> that as its major feature. Sanskrit?s a language, like any language. >> Everything is in it. All of human life is in it! " >> >> in >> >> https://nikhiletc.wordpress.com/2017/07/01/music-culture-his >> tory-a-conversation-with-david-shulman/ >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> >> With regards to environmentalist understanding in Sanskrit, you have in >> Gita: >> >> ??? ?????????? ????? ???????????? ?? ? >> >> ??????????????????? ???? ????? ? ????? ? ?-??? >> Those who do not follow/live as per the ecological cycle, such >> sensualists are paapajeevis and they live a vain life (experiencing the >> harmful consequences of not following the eco-cycle) >> >> ---------------------- >> >> ???????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ? >> >> ???? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ? ?-??? >> >> >> >> ??????????????? ?? ???? ???????? ?? ? >> >> ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ? ?-??? >> >> >> >> ??????????????? ?? ???? ????????? ??????????? ? >> >> ????????????????????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?? ? ?-??? >> >> >> Creator , in the beginning created human beings along with the >> (eco-friendly/nature nourishing/)sacrificial rituals and said through these >> rituals get what you want; these fulfil whatever you want >> >> Through these nourish and nurture the devas (nature forces) and they >> nourish and nurture you back. Thus 'treating' each other both you humans >> and the nature forces , may you achieve the best of the welfare >> >> Luxuries and pleasures that you want/like are provided by the devas >> (nature forces) who get treated by your eco-friendly/nature >> nourishing/sacrificial organised actions; thus enjoy all the luxuries >> provided by them. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------------------------------------- >> The Mann Ki Bath report by the news portal highlights one aspect of many >> praises of Modi for Sanskrit. That praise has a context. Sanskrit week >> celebration. A girl calls him from Bengaluru and speaks in Sanskrit. >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Modi recently said that Tamil is the most ancient Indian language and >> received bashing from those who believe that Sanskrit of the Vedas, not >> Tamil , is the most ancient language of India. >> >> ------------- >> >> That article on coal has in fact some statements criticising Modi taking >> the side of renewable energy sources. >> >> Modi appears in that article in >> >> India has plans for alternative means of generating electricity. Even >> before the Paris summit, Narendra Modi, the prime minister, aimed to >> install 175 gigawatts (GW) of renewable-energy capacity by 2022, a vast >> increase from today. That has now risen to 227GW. >> and >> >> Mr Modi may have thrown his weight behind solar and wind but, until other >> forms of backup power, such as storage, become cheaper, the system will >> still need coal to keep the lights on. >> >> ------ >> >> The links provided show that the article, not Modi or BJP, is in support >> of continuing the use of coal. The links do not substantiate that Modi or >> BJP have the view that "Climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals >> ". On the contrary, the first link provided proves that Modi considers >> climate change is a problem and considers that texts in Sanskrit have a >> solution for it. >> >> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Bruno Galasek via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-cha >>> nge-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html >>> >>> A ruse to justify continuing the use of coal, I assume. Perhaps the >>> BJP-version of "climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals." (You >>> know who) >>> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/08/02/india-shows-ho >>> w-hard-it-is-to-move-beyond-fossil-fuels >>> >>> B. Galasek-Hul >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Sat Sep 8 08:52:32 2018 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 08:52:32 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSBnb+G5o+G5rWjEqw==?= Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F77D81F997@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 12:34:17 2018 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 14:34:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New York Times Crossword In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the near future, the generally accepted correct answer consists perhaps of three letters: https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/we-are-all-harappans/300463 For now, it is apparently supposed to be a piece of general knowledge that the Indus Valley Inhabitant being "Aryan" is one (1) of the current *theories* popular in India about the Indus Valley Inhabitant's "identity". Jan Houben On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 at 17:12, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The online edition of today's new York Times crossword puzzle (which I > presume to be the same as the print edition) has "Early Indus Valley > Inhabitant" as the clue for 12 down. Sorry to be a spoiler here, but the > answer turns out to be "Aryan"! While I am pleased to see the Indus Valley > reference, the answer is disappointing, to say the least. > > cheers, > > Herman Tull > > -- > Herman Tull > Princeton, NJ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-1506959459.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7300 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 16:39:01 2018 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 12:39:01 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F77D81F997@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: Ken, I am not familiar with goshti as you use it. However, for an interesting exposition of "go" words in Vedic sources, see Keith and Macdonell's Vedic Index of Names and Subjects, vol 1, pp. 231 ff. It's available here: https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.284764/2015.284764.Vedic-Index#page/n1 On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 4:53 AM Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on > the Sanskrit word *go??h?* or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. > > Many thanks in advance. > > Best, > > Ken > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Herman Tull Princeton, NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Sep 8 17:14:18 2018 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 17:14:18 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You may wish to look into the surviving, vestigial manifestation, in the form of the gu?h? of Newar society in Kathmandu. There is a Wikipedia article on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthi (though it's misspelled there with a dental instead of retroflex consonant). But I imagine that the literature on Newar sociology and anthropology with have more - perhaps some of the others on the list can help with bibliography in that area. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca Sat Sep 8 18:33:24 2018 From: christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca (Christoph Emmrich) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 18:33:24 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fw:__go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= Message-ID: <20180908183322.7798869.48925.22674@utoronto.ca> Dear Matthew, Good to read you posts: they are always a pleasure, - and a reminder for me to say hello. To get the detail out of the way: the Newar spelling of guthi is indeed dental?, as Newar (not counting Sanskrit words) does not have retroflexes and the the word has been "newarized." How have you been doing? It has been so long. Srilata, Emilia, and I just returned from our regular Pondicherry summer with a month-long stint in Lalitpur,? to plunge into our respective terms without too much of an adjustment period. Not much time to rest, as Emilia did an intensive course in Upper Sorabian (my mother's family's language) in Bautzen in August and asked me to join her. Will you be in Chicago for the workshop in honour of Steve in November? I will be joining and if I am lucky, - fingers crossed, - I will see you there. Warmly, as ever, Christoph ---- Christoph Emmrich Associate Professor, Buddhist Studies Director, Centre for South Asian Studies at the Asian Institute, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy Chair, Numata Program UofT/McMaster University of Toronto http://www.religion.utoronto.ca/people/faculty/christoph-emmrich/ Department for the Study of Religion University of Toronto Jackman Humanities Building, R.203 170 St. George Street Toronto, Ontario M5R 2M8, Canada +416.978.6463 (o), +416.978.1610 (f) http://religion.utoronto.ca/people/faculty/christoph-emmrich/ Centre for South Asian Studies (CSAS) Asian Institute, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy North Building, R.106 1 Devonshire Place Toronto, ON M5S 3K7, Canada Tel.: (416) 978-6463 http://munkschool.utoronto.ca/csas/about/ Private: 18 Claxton Boulevard Toronto, ON M6C 1L8, Canada +1-416-317-2662 (c) christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca ? Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network. From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 1:25 PM To: zysk at hum.ku.dk; Herman Tull; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Reply To: Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? You may wish to look into the surviving, vestigial manifestation, in the form of the gu?h? of Newar society in Kathmandu. There is a Wikipedia article on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthi (though it's misspelled there with a dental instead of retroflex consonant). But I imagine that the literature on Newar sociology and anthropology with have more - perhaps some of the others on the list can help with bibliography in that area. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00001.txt URL: From christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca Sat Sep 8 18:39:44 2018 From: christoph.emmrich at utoronto.ca (Christoph Emmrich) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 18:39:44 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= Message-ID: <20180908183941.7798869.49769.22679@utoronto.ca> ?Dear Colleagues, Heartfelt apologies for the personal content of my last mail. Warmly, Christoph --- From: Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 1:25 PM To: zysk at hum.ku.dk; Herman Tull; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Reply To: Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? You may wish to look into the surviving, vestigial manifestation, in the form of the gu?h? of Newar society in Kathmandu. There is a Wikipedia article on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthi (though it's misspelled there with a dental instead of retroflex consonant). But I imagine that the literature on Newar sociology and anthropology with have more - perhaps some of the others on the list can help with bibliography in that area. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.bose at ubc.ca Sat Sep 8 20:39:51 2018 From: m.bose at ubc.ca (Bose, Mandakranta) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 20:39:51 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F77D81F997@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: "Go??h?' appears as a form of de??n??ya in Dattila, quoted in Sa?g?tan?r?ya?a (3. 15-18); V?tsy?yana, in his Kaamas?tra mentions "go upar?paka Mandakranta Bose, D.Phil. (Oxon.), FRAS, FRSC Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies Professor Emerita UBC Former Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver BC V6T 1Z2 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: September-08-18 1:52 AM To: Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: [INDOLOGY] go??h? I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.bose at ubc.ca Sat Sep 8 21:00:48 2018 From: m.bose at ubc.ca (Bose, Mandakranta) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 21:00:48 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My mail inadvertently was sent before I could finish my communication was completed. I do apologize. Here is the rest of my message. "Go??h?' appears as a form of de??n??ya in Dattila, quoted in Sa?g?tan?r?ya?a (3. 15-18); V?tsy?yana, in his Kaamas?tra mentions "go??h?" along with hallisaka and n??yar?saka and prek??aka (K?.II.10.25); Agnipur??a mentions "go??hupar?paka Mandakranta Bose, D.Phil. (Oxon.), FRAS, FRSC Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies Professor Emerita UBC Former Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver BC V6T 1Z2 ________________________________ From: Bose, Mandakranta Sent: September-08-18 1:39 PM To: Kenneth Gregory Zysk; Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: RE: go??h? "Go??h?' appears as a form of de??n??ya in Dattila, quoted in Sa?g?tan?r?ya?a (3. 15-18); V?tsy?yana, in his Kaamas?tra mentions "go upar?paka Mandakranta Bose, D.Phil. (Oxon.), FRAS, FRSC Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies Professor Emerita UBC Former Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver BC V6T 1Z2 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: September-08-18 1:52 AM To: Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: [INDOLOGY] go??h? I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From m.bose at ubc.ca Sat Sep 8 21:39:00 2018 From: m.bose at ubc.ca (Bose, Mandakranta) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 21:39:00 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Bose, Mandakranta via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: September-08-18 2:00 PM To: Kenneth Gregory Zysk; Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? My mail inadvertently was sent before I could finish my communication. I apologize. Here is the rest of my message. The term "go??h?" appears frequently in the ??stras of n??ya and denotes a group dance with music and some acting. Here are some references: "Go??h?' appears as a form of de??n??ya in Dattila, quoted in Sa?g?tan?r?ya?a (3. 15-18); V?tsy?yana, in his K?mas?tra mentions "go??h?" along with hallisaka and n??yar?saka and prek?a?aka as minor dramas or dance dramas (II.10.25); Agnipur??a also mentions "go??h?" without any detail. Bhoja first identified it as a minor drama in which K???a dances with gopis (???g?raprak??a, vol II, p. 468 in V. Raghavan, Madras,1963). R?macandra and Gu?acandra, Hemacandra, V?gbha?a, S?garanandin, S?rad?tanaya, Vi?van?tha and ?ubha?kara all include go??h? in their list of minor dramatic types that require song and dance. Vi?van?tha of the14th century identified minor dramatic types that included music and dance as upar?pakas. (See Bose, Mandakranta. Movement and Mimesis. Dordrecht, Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1991 for further details. p. 181). I am sorry that my email is working erratically. I hope this time it reaches in correct form. With kind regards, Mandakranta Bose, D.Phil. (Oxon.), FRAS, FRSC Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies Professor Emerita UBC Former Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver BC V6T 1Z2 ________________________________ From: Bose, Mandakranta Sent: September-08-18 1:39 PM To: Kenneth Gregory Zysk; Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: RE: go??h? "Go??h?' appears as a form of de??n??ya in Dattila, quoted in Sa?g?tan?r?ya?a (3. 15-18); V?tsy?yana, in his Kaamas?tra mentions "go upar?paka Mandakranta Bose, D.Phil. (Oxon.), FRAS, FRSC Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies Professor Emerita UBC Former Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver BC V6T 1Z2 ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: September-08-18 1:52 AM To: Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: [INDOLOGY] go??h? I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 21:52:10 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 15:52:10 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 at 11:25, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: ... Wikipedia article on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthi > (though it's misspelled there with a dental instead of retroflex consonant). > > I just corrected the spelling. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Sat Sep 8 22:30:52 2018 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 18 22:30:52 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Following up Ken?s and Matthew?s suggestion, here are some sources on guthis in Nepal < go???? in Licchavi inscriptions: Bernhard K?lver and Hemraj ?akya, Documents from the Rudravarna-Mah?vih?ra, P?tan. 1. Sales and Mortgages (1985), esp. disc. on pp. 18?21. U. N. Sinha, Development of Panchayats in Nepal (Patna, 1973, chapter IV. Mary Slusser in Nepal Ma??ala (1982). John K. Locke, Buddhist Monasteries of Nepal (Kathmandu: Sahayogi Press, 1985), esp. pp. 10, 14, and passim. Phanindra Ratna Vajracharya, "Role of Guthi in Newar Buddhist Culture? (1998 conference paper summary): http://www.aioiyama.net/lrc/papers/cbhnm-ppr-6.htm Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Chair of the Department of Religion 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" > Date: Saturday, September 8, 2018 at 1:14 PM To: Kenneth Zysk >, Herman Tull >, INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? You may wish to look into the surviving, vestigial manifestation, in the form of the gu?h? of Newar society in Kathmandu. There is a Wikipedia article on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthi (though it's misspelled there with a dental instead of retroflex consonant). But I imagine that the literature on Newar sociology and anthropology with have more - perhaps some of the others on the list can help with bibliography in that area. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From straube at aikq.de Sun Sep 9 09:29:02 2018 From: straube at aikq.de (Martin Straube) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 11:29:02 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F77D81F997@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: <72f3da027c9634f5b0549a444be0a9c3@mail.aikq.de> Dear Ken, for gosthi in the sense of a "society which promted cultural interests" (kavyagosthi, jalpagosthi etc.) see S. Lienhard, Classical Poetry (Hist. of Indian Lit. III.1), p. 16 ff. (check also the index), and A. Ollett, Language of the Snakes (open access: www.luminosoa.org), p. 60 f., 118 f., et infra. I found Bose, Jitendra Lal: Notes on club life in ancient India, in: Journal of the Bihar and Orissa Research Society, 3, 1917, S. 406-415, in SARDS, but I do not know that article. With best wishes Martin === Dr. Martin Straube Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography, Pali Text Society Philipps-Universit?t Marburg Indologie und Tibetologie Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg GERMANY --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- Von: Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY Datum: 08.09.2018 10:52:32 An: "Indology (indology at list.indology.info)" Betreff: [INDOLOGY] go??h? > I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on > the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. > Many thanks in advance. > Best, > Ken > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Sep 9 11:10:13 2018 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 11:10:13 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <72f3da027c9634f5b0549a444be0a9c3@mail.aikq.de> Message-ID: For information on how the participants of go??h?s pass the time the following article may be of interest: Cezary Galewicz and Lidia Sudyka, "If you know one thousand ?loka-s, you are half a poet: on the ak?ara-?loka tradition of Kerala", in: Cracow Indological Studies 7 (Jagiellonian University. Institute of Oriental Philology), Krakow 2005, pp. 295-315. It is one of the products of a project on literary societies in Kerala. For more information you might contact the authors. Best, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Martin Straube via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: zondag 9 september 2018 11:29 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? Dear Ken, for gosthi in the sense of a "society which promted cultural interests" (kavyagosthi, jalpagosthi etc.) see S. Lienhard, Classical Poetry (Hist. of Indian Lit. III.1), p. 16 ff. (check also the index), and A. Ollett, Language of the Snakes (open access: www.luminosoa.org), p. 60 f., 118 f., et infra. I found Bose, Jitendra Lal: Notes on club life in ancient India, in: Journal of the Bihar and Orissa Research Society, 3, 1917, S. 406-415, in SARDS, but I do not know that article. With best wishes Martin === Dr. Martin Straube Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography, Pali Text Society Philipps-Universit?t Marburg Indologie und Tibetologie Deutschhausstrasse 12 35032 Marburg GERMANY --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- Von: Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY Datum: 08.09.2018 10:52:32 An: "Indology (indology at list.indology.info)" Betreff: [INDOLOGY] go??h? > I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on > the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. > Many thanks in advance. > Best, > Ken > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it Sun Sep 9 11:37:07 2018 From: franceschini.marco at fastwebnet.it (Marco Franceschini) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 13:37:07 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <72f3da027c9634f5b0549a444be0a9c3@mail.aikq.de> Message-ID: <80A675D9-9020-44B3-873D-D17EF7680BE1@fastwebnet.it> Dear Martin, Bose?s article is available on Archive.org: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277246 Best wishes, Marco ? Marco Franceschini ??????????? Ricercatore a tempo determinato Universit? di Bologna Dipartimento Storia Culture Civilt? via Zamboni 33 - 40126 Bologna marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it www.unibo.it/sitoweb/marco.franceschini3 www.associazioneitalianadistudisanscriti.org --- Il giorno 09/set/2018, alle ore 11:29, Martin Straube via INDOLOGY ha scritto: > Dear Ken, > > for gosthi in the sense of a "society which promted cultural interests" (kavyagosthi, jalpagosthi etc.) see S. Lienhard, Classical Poetry (Hist. of Indian Lit. III.1), p. 16 ff. (check also the index), and A. Ollett, Language of the Snakes (open access: www.luminosoa.org), p. 60 f., 118 f., et infra. > > I found > > Bose, Jitendra Lal: Notes on club life in ancient India, in: Journal of the Bihar and Orissa Research Society, 3, 1917, S. 406-415, > > in SARDS, but I do not know that article. > > With best wishes > Martin > > === > Dr. Martin Straube > Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography, Pali Text Society > > Philipps-Universit?t Marburg > Indologie und Tibetologie > Deutschhausstrasse 12 > 35032 Marburg > GERMANY > > > --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- > Von: Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY > Datum: 08.09.2018 10:52:32 > An: "Indology (indology at list.indology.info)" > Betreff: [INDOLOGY] go??h? > >> I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on >> the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. >> Many thanks in advance. >> Best, >> Ken >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Sun Sep 9 14:50:56 2018 From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 14:50:56 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6D8343BB-85A0-4D7E-9344-9854B10EF46F@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Dear all, following Tim?s suggestions regarding the Newar guthi system, I also suggest to read: Mahesh Chandra Regmi, Landownership in Nepal. Berkeley, Los Angeles, London: University of California Press, 1976, ch. 4. Gerard Toffin, From Kin to Caste. The Role of Guthis in Newar Society and Culture. Lalitpur: Social Science Baha (Mahesh Chandra Regmi Lecture, 2005). And, Dominik, as already remarked by Christoph Emmrich, it?s guthi in Nev?r? and not gu?h? (as in Nep?l?). So you ?correction? in the Wikipedia article which refers to the Newar system is wrong, even though both terms stem from Skt. go??h?. Best, Axel Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and Humanities | Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????-?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities South Asia Institute Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html Von: INDOLOGY im Auftrag von "indology at list.indology.info" Antworten an: Timothy Lubin Datum: Sonntag, 9. September 2018 um 00:31 An: "mkapstei at uchicago.edu" , "zysk at hum.ku.dk" , Herman Tull , "indology at list.indology.info" Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? Following up Ken?s and Matthew?s suggestion, here are some sources on guthis in Nepal < go???? in Licchavi inscriptions: Bernhard K?lver and Hemraj ?akya, Documents from the Rudravarna-Mah?vih?ra, P?tan. 1. Sales and Mortgages (1985), esp. disc. on pp. 18?21. U. N. Sinha, Development of Panchayats in Nepal (Patna, 1973, chapter IV. Mary Slusser in Nepal Ma??ala (1982). John K. Locke, Buddhist Monasteries of Nepal (Kathmandu: Sahayogi Press, 1985), esp. pp. 10, 14, and passim. Phanindra Ratna Vajracharya, "Role of Guthi in Newar Buddhist Culture? (1998 conference paper summary): http://www.aioiyama.net/lrc/papers/cbhnm-ppr-6.htm Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Chair of the Department of Religion 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" > Date: Saturday, September 8, 2018 at 1:14 PM To: Kenneth Zysk >, Herman Tull >, INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] go??h? You may wish to look into the surviving, vestigial manifestation, in the form of the gu?h? of Newar society in Kathmandu. There is a Wikipedia article on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthi (though it's misspelled there with a dental instead of retroflex consonant). But I imagine that the literature on Newar sociology and anthropology with have more - perhaps some of the others on the list can help with bibliography in that area. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Sun Sep 9 15:17:59 2018 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 17:17:59 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] How to translate an indological book from French to English AGAIN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would like to thank all those who gave me ideas in order to solve my problem, exposed below. The difficulty now is the payement. I don't have the money to pay for the translation. Perhaps is there a solution through an Indian publishing house. Does anybody know a publisher, who could pay for the translation with the exclusive distribution in exchange ? Best regards, Dr J.M.Delire > Dear members of the Indology list, > > Two years ago, I announced that my book Les math?matiques de l'autel > v?dique, Le Baudh?yana ?ulbas?tra et son commentaire ?ulbad?pik?, was > published by Droz, Geneva. > Since then, some reviews have been written and one of them (see the > last sentence of the attached file) insists on the urgence to > translate the book into English. But English is not my mother > language, and it would be much time-consuming for me to do so. > Could anybody propose a solution to this problem ? Of course, I would > be very happy to supervise the translation, in order to see if the > meaning is well respected. > > Best regards and thank you for your help, > > Dr J.M.Delire, > Lecturer on Science and Civilization of India - Sanskrit texts at the > University of Brussels >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 15:27:04 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 09:27:04 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <6D8343BB-85A0-4D7E-9344-9854B10EF46F@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 at 08:51, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > > > And, Dominik, as already remarked by Christoph Emmrich, it?s *guthi* in > Nev?r? and not *gu?h?* (as in Nep?l?). So you ?correction? in the > Wikipedia article which refers to the Newar system is wrong, even though > both terms stem from Skt. *go??h?*. > > > Yes, I saw Christoph's note. I reinserted *guthi* at the start of the entry, as you probably saw when you looked at the page, but I haven't written a proper clarification because I don't know enough about Newar usage. Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 9 16:07:39 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 09:07:39 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <72f3da027c9634f5b0549a444be0a9c3@mail.aikq.de> Message-ID: Hello Ken, It seems to me that the connection of the words go??ha and go??h? needs to be investigated. Go??ha refers to the cowshed, and that cowshed may have served as a place for gathering of friends and family members to chat. Such may be the origin of go??h? as a dialogue/conversation/chatting. In this sense, the word go??? appears in Marathi usage, and the vernacular usage is probably related to the use of go??h? in combinations like k?vyago??h?, vidvadgo??h? etc. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 2:29 AM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Ken, > > for gosthi in the sense of a "society which promted cultural interests" > (kavyagosthi, jalpagosthi etc.) see S. Lienhard, Classical Poetry (Hist. of > Indian Lit. III.1), p. 16 ff. (check also the index), and A. Ollett, > Language of the Snakes (open access: www.luminosoa.org), p. 60 f., 118 > f., et infra. > > I found > > Bose, Jitendra Lal: Notes on club life in ancient India, in: Journal of > the Bihar and Orissa Research Society, 3, 1917, S. 406-415, > > in SARDS, but I do not know that article. > > With best wishes > Martin > > === > Dr. Martin Straube > Research Fellow in Pali Lexicography, Pali Text Society > > Philipps-Universit?t Marburg > Indologie und Tibetologie > Deutschhausstrasse 12 > 35032 Marburg > GERMANY > > > --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- > Von: Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY > Datum: 08.09.2018 10:52:32 > An: "Indology (indology at list.indology.info)" > Betreff: [INDOLOGY] go??h? > > > I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written > on > > the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. > > Many thanks in advance. > > Best, > > Ken > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manjushree42 at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 16:36:59 2018 From: manjushree42 at gmail.com (Manjushree Hegde) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 22:06:59 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Traditional_Pa=E1=B8=8Dayani_and_Kalamezhuthu_Pattu_in_"=C5=9Aakti_Worship_in_India"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list, We are delighted to inform you that Amrita Darshanam ? International Centre for Spiritual Studies, in association with *N?riv?da*, Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts (IGNCA), is organizing a three-day national seminar on ?*?akti Worship in India*? from September 21 to 23, 2018 at Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Kollam, Kerala. More than 25 scholars of renown will deliver invited lectures on the different aspects of *?akti* worship in India. During the course of the seminar, *two traditional rituals will be performed*: *Pa?ayani and Kalamezhuthu Pattu. * *Pa?ayani* is a masked performance of an ancient ritual performed to appease the fierce Bhadrak?li after she kills D?ruka. According to the legend, it was first performed by ?iva?s *bh?taga?a*-s in order to pacify her anger which could, otherwise, destroy the worlds. It is unique to central Kerala ? particularly popular in the districts of Kottayam and Pathanamthitta. It will be elaborately performed in Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Kerala, on *21 September 2018* by traditional artists (Making of *kollams* (masks) will be done throughout the day. Performance starts late evening, and will continue into the wee hours of the morning) *Kalamezhuthu* is a temple ritual that has three stages ? (a) drawing of the *kalam*, (b) worshiping of the *kalam* with lights called *thiri uzhichil*, and (c) erasing of the *kalam* *maykkal*. It will performed in Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Kerala, on *23 September 2018* (Drawing of *kalam* will start on the evening of 22/9/18; the ritual will commence on the morning of 23/9/18, and will be completed in 12 hours) Kindly refer to the brochure attached. To register, visit: *www.amrita.edu/ad/sswi * With best wishes, Manjushree Hegde, Assistant Professor, Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Coimbatore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NationalSeminaronSaktiWorshipinIndia_A3Poster_SpecialAttractions.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 5129905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Sun Sep 9 17:36:37 2018 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 17:36:37 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_go=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADh=C4=AB?= In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F77D81F997@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F77D81FF7F@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> I should like to thank everyone who responded to my enquiry about go??h? both on and off list. The suggestions were most help. All the best, Ken From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY Sent: 8. september 2018 10:53 To: Indology (indology at list.indology.info) Subject: [INDOLOGY] go??h? I should appreciate it if someone could direct me to any papers written on the Sanskrit word go??h? or ?the gentlemen?s club? in ancient India. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 19:54:59 2018 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 15:54:59 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for book by Norihiko Tanaka Message-ID: <79001DB3-AE5B-42AC-B787-2A095D64E205@gmail.com> Dear list members, For a new edition of vyoma?iva?s commentary on pad?rthadharmasa?graha? that I am preparing, I am looking for a copy, hard or soft, of: Norihiko Tanaka, The Padarthadharmasamgraha of Paasastapada. Volume I: Dvyaprakarana. [Part I Variant Readings of the Manuscripts (1)], Kyoto, 1994. If any other volumes have appeared since 1994, I will gratefully accept information about these, and how to obtain copies. Tanaka?s earlier work on ??rad? manuscripts of this text evidences some readings not attested in other editions that vyoma?iva?s commentary explains. Harunaga Isaacson refers to this work in his Materials for the study of the Vai?e?ika system (1995). I am unable to find any library location in WorldCat, or any reference to it other than Haru?s. Thank you, Elliot M. Stern -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 22:40:32 2018 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 18:40:32 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 4:10 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thanks Prof. Silk for bringing this alert that can avoid the initiation of > such threads as is the present one. > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 12:31 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >> May I make a plea, please? >> I think all discussions of Sanskrit and Indology-related topics are >> appropriate and welcome here. >> I think discussions of world leaders (or non-leaders) when the topic does >> not bear on Indology or Sanskrit (Tamil etc) are not appropriate here, no >> matter how passionate you may be about that. There are plenty of other fora >> for that. >> Thank you keeping this a "safe space" for Indology (the scare-quoted >> expression was meant as a little joke...) >> >> Jonathan >> >> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 5:59 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> For some, Sanskrit , not some specific portions of its literature, is >>> toxic. >>> >>> For some, Sanskrit, not some specific portions of its literature is >>> amrita, ambrosia, nectar , a panacea. >>> >>> Prof. David Shulman said, " Even in Sanskrit, it?s a misconception, I >>> think, that Sanskrit is built around this notion of tremendous power and >>> inequality. There?s an aspect of that, but I certainly wouldn?t think of >>> that as its major feature. Sanskrit?s a language, like any language. >>> Everything is in it. All of human life is in it! " >>> >>> in >>> >>> >>> https://nikhiletc.wordpress.com/2017/07/01/music-culture-history-a-conversation-with-david-shulman/ >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> With regards to environmentalist understanding in Sanskrit, you have in >>> Gita: >>> >>> ??? ?????????? ????? ???????????? ?? ? >>> >>> ??????????????????? ???? ????? ? ????? ? ?-??? >>> Those who do not follow/live as per the ecological cycle, such >>> sensualists are paapajeevis and they live a vain life (experiencing the >>> harmful consequences of not following the eco-cycle) >>> >>> ---------------------- >>> >>> ???????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ? >>> >>> ???? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ? ?-??? >>> >>> >>> >>> ??????????????? ?? ???? ???????? ?? ? >>> >>> ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ? ?-??? >>> >>> >>> >>> ??????????????? ?? ???? ????????? ??????????? ? >>> >>> ????????????????????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ?? ? ?-??? >>> >>> >>> Creator , in the beginning created human beings along with the >>> (eco-friendly/nature nourishing/)sacrificial rituals and said through these >>> rituals get what you want; these fulfil whatever you want >>> >>> Through these nourish and nurture the devas (nature forces) and they >>> nourish and nurture you back. Thus 'treating' each other both you humans >>> and the nature forces , may you achieve the best of the welfare >>> >>> Luxuries and pleasures that you want/like are provided by the devas >>> (nature forces) who get treated by your eco-friendly/nature >>> nourishing/sacrificial organised actions; thus enjoy all the luxuries >>> provided by them. >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> The Mann Ki Bath report by the news portal highlights one aspect of many >>> praises of Modi for Sanskrit. That praise has a context. Sanskrit week >>> celebration. A girl calls him from Bengaluru and speaks in Sanskrit. >>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Modi recently said that Tamil is the most ancient Indian language and >>> received bashing from those who believe that Sanskrit of the Vedas, not >>> Tamil , is the most ancient language of India. >>> >>> ------------- >>> >>> That article on coal has in fact some statements criticising Modi taking >>> the side of renewable energy sources. >>> >>> Modi appears in that article in >>> >>> India has plans for alternative means of generating electricity. Even >>> before the Paris summit, Narendra Modi, the prime minister, aimed to >>> install 175 gigawatts (GW) of renewable-energy capacity by 2022, a vast >>> increase from today. That has now risen to 227GW. >>> and >>> >>> Mr Modi may have thrown his weight behind solar and wind but, until >>> other forms of backup power, such as storage, become cheaper, the system >>> will still need coal to keep the lights on. >>> >>> ------ >>> >>> The links provided show that the article, not Modi or BJP, is in support >>> of continuing the use of coal. The links do not substantiate that Modi or >>> BJP have the view that "Climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals >>> ". On the contrary, the first link provided proves that Modi considers >>> climate change is a problem and considers that texts in Sanskrit have a >>> solution for it. >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Bruno Galasek via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html >>>> >>>> A ruse to justify continuing the use of coal, I assume. Perhaps the >>>> BJP-version of "climate change is a hoax, invented by left liberals." (You >>>> know who) >>>> >>>> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/08/02/india-shows-how-hard-it-is-to-move-beyond-fossil-fuels >>>> >>>> B. Galasek-Hul >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 9 23:53:01 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 18 16:53:01 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna Verses: ???????? ?? ??????????? ?? ????? ???????????: ? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??????? ? ??? ????? ??????? You are my devotee and are dear to Me. I am your friend, doing what is most dear to you. My mind is attached to you, and your mind is attached to Me. ?? ?????????????????? ?????? ????????????? ? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?????: ??????? O friend, day and night I shower you with my love. When all your burden rests on me, what is your worry?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??????????? ? ?????????????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? Day and night, remembering these words spoken by Krishna in my mind, I attain peace. What do I have to be afraid of? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Sep 10 05:47:17 2018 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 07:47:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution Message-ID: Dear List, In Mbh I, 30.8 *b* Garuda says: na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham *kasmaicid* - (to) *whom*? Who is going to be excluded? Your opinion, please? Thank you, Artur Karp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 07:22:28 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 09:22:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson wrote: > re JOYDEEP > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > best wishes, > > George Thompson > > > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 10:46:41 2018 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 06:46:41 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for book by Norihiko Tanaka fulfilled Message-ID: <4575F9B7-4187-40A4-B5E8-DE7672DF659D@gmail.com> I would like to thank Harunaga Isaacson for prompt response and sharing a pdf of the requested publication. I also thank Professor Noriyuko Kudo for a description of the progress of the Professor Tanaka?s project. Professor Tanaka?s duties as President of Bukkyo University, Kyoto., have resulted in a delay in completion of the project, but he intends to complete it. Professor Kudo worked together with Professor Tanaka, his teacher, for 15 years on this project, that now includes 54 mss and 8 printed editions. Elliot Dear list members, For a new edition of vyoma?iva?s commentary on pad?rthadharmasa?graha? that I am preparing, I am looking for a copy, hard or soft, of: Norihiko Tanaka, The Padarthadharmasamgraha of Paasastapada. Volume I: Dravyaprakarana. [Part I Variant Readings of the Manuscripts (1)], Kyoto, 1994. If any other volumes have appeared since 1994, I will gratefully accept information about these, and how to obtain copies. Tanaka?s earlier work on ??rad? manuscripts of this text evidences some readings not attested in other editions that vyoma?iva?s commentary explains. Harunaga Isaacson refers to this work in his Materials for the study of the Vai?e?ika system (1995). I am unable to find any library location in WorldCat, or any reference to it other than Haru?s. Thank you, Elliot M. Stern -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 11:03:44 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 16:33:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > Jonathan > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > >> re JOYDEEP >> >> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >> read Joydeep's papers? >> >> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >> back in touch with the rest of us. >> >> best wishes, >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 11:50:25 2018 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 17:20:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhusadani Commentary on Siva Mahimna Message-ID: Dear all Is there any critical edition of Madhusudani commentary on Siva mahimna stotra, If no, then are MSS available? I don't have access to NCC Kindly help. Thanks Krishna Prasad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrinsaha at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 13:15:57 2018 From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 18:45:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Madhusadani Commentary on Siva Mahimna In-Reply-To: <1536580548296.724024822@boxbe> Message-ID: Dear Krishna Prasadji, I can't say about the critical edition of MST, but the following editions are available: 1*. ?ivamahimna?stotra* (1996), *?ivamahimna?stotram of Pu?padant?c?rya with the commentaries ?Madhus?dan?? and ?Pa**?**camukh??*, ed. Karu??pati Trip?th?, Varanasi: Sampuranand Sanskrit University. 2. ?arm?, Ral?r?ma (trans. into Hindi) (2001) *Mahimnastotram ?r?madhus?dan???k?-tad?ryabh???nuv?dasahitam*, V?r??as?: Caukhamb? Vidy?bhavana (reprint). With regards, Niranjan Saha Publications: https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > [image: Boxbe] This message is eligible > for Automatic Cleanup! (indology at list.indology.info) Add cleanup rule > > | More info > > Dear all > Is there any critical edition of Madhusudani commentary on Siva mahimna > stotra, > If no, then are MSS available? I don't have access to NCC > Kindly help. > > Thanks > > Krishna Prasad > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk Mon Sep 10 13:16:23 2018 From: Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk (APPLETON Naomi) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 13:16:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP: Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions, 12th-14th April 2019, Lancaster Message-ID: <15A6811B-4ED4-4D5F-977E-467E09CC09E3@ed.ac.uk> Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions Call for papers: 2019 Symposium We invite proposals for papers for the 44th Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions, which will be hosted by Lancaster University, 12-14 April 2019. The theme this year is ?gender?. Our purview includes both religions of South Asian origin wherever in the world they are being practised, and those of non South Asian origin present within South Asia. We welcome papers based upon all research methods, including textual, historical, ethnographic, sociological and philosophical. Presenters are allocated forty minutes for their paper and twenty minutes for discussion, and will normally be expected to pay their own conference registration and expenses. The Symposium fee, including food and accommodation, is predicted to be ?190, with a non-residential rate of ?85. Registration details will be released in the new year. Limited financial assistance may be available for early career scholars or scholars from South Asia. If your participation depends upon such support please indicate this when you submit your abstract. We also welcome proposals from doctoral students, who will be allocated twenty minutes for their paper and ten minutes for discussion, and offered free registration at the Symposium (including accommodation). Doctoral student papers do not have to address the theme of gender, but are more than welcome to do so. We are delighted to announce our keynote speakers and their provisional paper titles: * Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad, Fellow of the British Academy and Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy at Lancaster University: ?Anger and Gender: A Sideways Look Through Rasa Theory at Draupad? and Bh?ma? * Sondra Hausner, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Oxford: ?Gender, Ritual, and Hierarchy: Ascetic Inversions at the Great Indian Kumbh Mela? If you would like to give a paper, please send a title and abstract (maximum 500 words) to Dr Brian Black, b.black at lancaster.ac.uk, by Friday 16 November 2018. Further information about the Symposium can be found on our website, spaldingsymposium.org, where you can also sign up to receive details of the programme and booking information when available. -------------------------------- Dr Naomi Appleton Senior Lecturer in Asian Religions School of Divinity, University of Edinburgh naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk www.naomiappleton.wordpress.com The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Sep 10 13:58:04 2018 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 13:58:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleague, The usual interpretation of the combination kim (interrogative pronoun) plus cid is as an indefinite, and combined with the negative na, it is best translated (in English) as ?anybody?. So the interpretation of the line would have to be something like ?I (aham) will not (na) give (d?sy?mi) soma to even (api) anyone (kasmaicid) to take (sam?d?tum) [it]?. So, everybody will be excluded from taking the soma. Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock On 10 Sep 2018, at 00:47, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear List, In Mbh I, 30.8 b Garuda says: na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham kasmaicid - (to) whom? Who is going to be excluded? Your opinion, please? Thank you, Artur Karp _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Sep 10 15:02:45 2018 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 17:02:45 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Hock, Thanks for the detailed analysis of the sentence. But. 'Anyone'. My English-Polish/Polish-English Dictionary directs me from 'anyone' to 'anybody'. And - according to it - 'anybody' may also mean 'somebody unimportant'. In Polish: 'byle kto'. Would you - definitely - exclude this very meaning? After careful deliberations, I decided for using it in my Polish translation of the episode. Best, Artur Karp (MA) Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) Department of South Asian Studies University of Warsaw 2018-09-10 15:58 GMT+02:00 Hock, Hans Henrich : > Dear Colleague, > > The usual interpretation of the combination *kim* (interrogative pronoun) > plus *cid* is as an indefinite, and combined with the negative * na*, it > is best translated (in English) as ?anybody?. So the interpretation of the > line would have to be something like ?I (aham) will not (na) give (d?sy?mi) > soma to even (api) anyone (kasmaicid) to take (sam?d?tum) [it]?. So, > everybody will be excluded from taking the soma. > > Best wishes, > > Hans Henrich Hock > > > On 10 Sep 2018, at 00:47, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear List, > > In Mbh I, 30.8 *b* Garuda says: > > na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham > > *kasmaicid* - (to) *whom*? > > Who is going to be excluded? > > Your opinion, please? > > Thank you, > > Artur Karp > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Mon Sep 10 16:12:00 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 16:12:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk Cc: George Thompson ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 16:29:14 2018 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 17:29:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbagchee at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 17:48:52 2018 From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 19:48:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear friends, The problem with Indology is perhaps greater than we think, when two young Indian intellectuals are called names in this forum by aging white men. Remember that a few days ago there were loud demands for apologies to women who had apparently been criticized at the WSC. Since when has it become acceptable to scream names like ?Hindutva racist?? If only hypocrisy could speak! Self-righteous posturing is no substitute for hard work and rigorous research. By calling us ?Hindutva? you have only demonstrated that the term is a weapon you use fecklessly to defend weak scholarship from criticism. Not ONE of our arguments in any of our books rests on ad hominems. Do not display your ignorance by repeating hearsay... it only demonstrates that you do not read. Because George Thompson raised the issue of racism in Indology, here is our work on the subject: https://www.academia.edu/37374680/Indology_The_Origins_of_Racism_in_the_Humanities . It is a review of Pascale Rabault-Feurhahn?s book *Archives of Origins*. We do not make the charge of racism lightly: it is based on a knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist. When you attack us for bringing these problems to light, you only prove their continuing existence and the timeliness of our critique. Shana Tova, Joydeep Dr. Joydeep Bagchee Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen Academia.edu Homepage The Nay Science Argument and Design Reading the Fifth Veda When the Goddess Was a Woman Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India German Indology on OBO Hinduism ___________________ What, then, is Philosophy? Philosophy is the supremely precious. Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5 On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 6:30 PM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > All the best, > Antonia > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >> >> >> >> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >> >> >> >> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >> and many other living beings. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Cammillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >> *To:* Jonathan Silk >> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >> because German Indology has been good Indology. >> >> >> >> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >> >> >> >> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >> >> >> >> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >> people with mundane interests. >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> >> >> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >> >> >> >> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >> etc. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >> >> >> >> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >> reasonable understanding. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >> and Bagchee. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >> for that subject matter. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >> wrote: >> >> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >> >> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >> >> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >> >> >> >> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >> they may be, >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> re JOYDEEP >> >> >> >> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >> read Joydeep's papers? >> >> >> >> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >> back in touch with the rest of us. >> >> >> >> best wishes, >> >> >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 18:09:15 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 23:39:15 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel wrote: > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > All the best, > Antonia > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >> >> >> >> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >> >> >> >> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >> and many other living beings. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Cammillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >> *To:* Jonathan Silk >> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >> because German Indology has been good Indology. >> >> >> >> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >> >> >> >> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >> >> >> >> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >> people with mundane interests. >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> >> >> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >> >> >> >> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >> etc. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >> >> >> >> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >> reasonable understanding. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >> and Bagchee. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >> for that subject matter. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >> wrote: >> >> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >> >> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >> >> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >> >> >> >> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >> they may be, >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> re JOYDEEP >> >> >> >> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >> read Joydeep's papers? >> >> >> >> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >> back in touch with the rest of us. >> >> >> >> best wishes, >> >> >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.raman at utoronto.ca Mon Sep 10 18:25:44 2018 From: s.raman at utoronto.ca (s.raman at utoronto.ca) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 14:25:44 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20180910142544.8rifg4zr9wokgco8@webmail.utoronto.ca> Dear Colleagues, We must sympathize and feel with Dr. Bagchee on this "non-racist" remark about "aging white men"! Also for the modest and clear articulation of his unsurpassed and unchallengeable "knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist." I really think there is nothing further to be said is there - on the part especially of any of us who have also, alas for us, studied "German Indology" in Germany and must now shamefully bear that dreadful cross for the rest of our lives! I will leave it to Dr. Bagchee to have the last word yet again as he usually does and must - after all I cannot claim to even have a minuscule amount of his knowledge, his vast sense of victimhood or his sheer expertise regarding the weighty matter at hand. with friendly greetings, Srilata Raman Associate Professor of Hinduism University of Toronto Quoting Joydeep via INDOLOGY : > Dear friends, > > > > The problem with Indology is perhaps greater than we think, when two young > Indian intellectuals are called names in this forum by aging white men. > > > > Remember that a few days ago there were loud demands for apologies to women > who had apparently been criticized at the WSC. Since when has it become > acceptable to scream names like ?Hindutva racist?? If only hypocrisy could > speak! > > > > Self-righteous posturing is no substitute for hard work and rigorous > research. By calling us ?Hindutva? you have only demonstrated that the term > is a weapon you use fecklessly to defend weak scholarship from criticism. > > > > Not ONE of our arguments in any of our books rests on ad hominems. Do not > display your ignorance by repeating hearsay... it only demonstrates that > you do not read. > > > > Because George Thompson raised the issue of racism in Indology, here is our > work on the subject: > > > > https://www.academia.edu/37374680/Indology_The_Origins_of_Racism_in_the_Humanities > . > > > > It is a review of Pascale Rabault-Feurhahn?s book *Archives of Origins*. > > > > We do not make the charge of racism lightly: it is based on a knowledge of > German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far > exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist. When you attack > us for bringing these problems to light, you only prove their continuing > existence and the timeliness of our critique. > > > > Shana Tova, > > Joydeep > > > Dr. Joydeep Bagchee > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen > Academia.edu Homepage > > The Nay Science > > Argument and Design > > Reading the Fifth Veda > When the Goddess Was a Woman > Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India > > German Indology on OBO Hinduism > > ___________________ > What, then, is Philosophy? > Philosophy is the supremely precious. > > Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5 > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 6:30 PM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Camillo, dear all, >> >> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >> debate. >> >> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >> companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that >> leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging >> to the environment. >> >> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, >> and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, >> present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful >> thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the >> kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, >> knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature >> can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects >> of our modern lives. >> >> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle >> climate change. >> >> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the >> thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in >> the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >> deal with climate change (among other things). >> >> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need >> to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then >> they'll stop cutting our funding. >> >> All the best, >> Antonia >> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >>> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >>> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >>> and many other living beings. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Cammillo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >>> *To:* Jonathan Silk >>> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>> >>> >>> >>> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >>> because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >>> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >>> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >>> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >>> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >>> >>> >>> >>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >>> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >>> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >>> >>> >>> >>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >>> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >>> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >>> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >>> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >>> people with mundane interests. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >>> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >>> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >>> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >>> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >>> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >>> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >>> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >>> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >>> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >>> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >>> etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >>> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >>> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >>> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >>> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >>> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >>> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >>> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >>> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >>> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >>> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >>> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >>> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >>> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >>> reasonable understanding. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >>> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >>> and Bagchee. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >>> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >>> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >>> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >>> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >>> for that subject matter. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >>> wrote: >>> >>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >>> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >>> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >>> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >>> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >>> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >>> >>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >>> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >>> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >>> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >>> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >>> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >>> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >>> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >>> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >>> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >>> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >>> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >>> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >>> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >>> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >>> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >>> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >>> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >>> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >>> >>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >>> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >>> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >>> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >>> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >>> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >>> they may be, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>> re JOYDEEP >>> >>> >>> >>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >>> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >>> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >>> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >>> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >>> read Joydeep's papers? >>> >>> >>> >>> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >>> back in touch with the rest of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> George Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>> , >>> Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >>> unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Sep 10 19:11:19 2018 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 19:11:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Spam:******] Re: Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) In-Reply-To: <20180910142544.8rifg4zr9wokgco8@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: It may be of some interest to the participants of the present discussion on racism, nazism etc. that the last few messages did not pass the Leiden University spam filter. Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Srilata Raman via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: maandag 10 september 2018 20:25 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:******] Re: [INDOLOGY] Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) Dear Colleagues, We must sympathize and feel with Dr. Bagchee on this "non-racist" remark about "aging white men"! Also for the modest and clear articulation of his unsurpassed and unchallengeable "knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist." I really think there is nothing further to be said is there - on the part especially of any of us who have also, alas for us, studied "German Indology" in Germany and must now shamefully bear that dreadful cross for the rest of our lives! I will leave it to Dr. Bagchee to have the last word yet again as he usually does and must - after all I cannot claim to even have a minuscule amount of his knowledge, his vast sense of victimhood or his sheer expertise regarding the weighty matter at hand. with friendly greetings, Srilata Raman Associate Professor of Hinduism University of Toronto Quoting Joydeep via INDOLOGY : > Dear friends, > > > > The problem with Indology is perhaps greater than we think, when two young > Indian intellectuals are called names in this forum by aging white men. > > > > Remember that a few days ago there were loud demands for apologies to women > who had apparently been criticized at the WSC. Since when has it become > acceptable to scream names like ?Hindutva racist?? If only hypocrisy could > speak! > > > > Self-righteous posturing is no substitute for hard work and rigorous > research. By calling us ?Hindutva? you have only demonstrated that the term > is a weapon you use fecklessly to defend weak scholarship from criticism. > > > > Not ONE of our arguments in any of our books rests on ad hominems. Do not > display your ignorance by repeating hearsay... it only demonstrates that > you do not read. > > > > Because George Thompson raised the issue of racism in Indology, here is our > work on the subject: > > > > https://www.academia.edu/37374680/Indology_The_Origins_of_Racism_in_the_Humanities > . > > > > It is a review of Pascale Rabault-Feurhahn?s book *Archives of Origins*. > > > > We do not make the charge of racism lightly: it is based on a knowledge of > German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far > exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist. When you attack > us for bringing these problems to light, you only prove their continuing > existence and the timeliness of our critique. > > > > Shana Tova, > > Joydeep > > > Dr. Joydeep Bagchee > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen > Academia.edu Homepage > > The Nay Science > > Argument and Design > > Reading the Fifth Veda > When the Goddess Was a Woman > Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India > > German Indology on OBO Hinduism > > ___________________ > What, then, is Philosophy? > Philosophy is the supremely precious. > > Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5 > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 6:30 PM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Camillo, dear all, >> >> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >> debate. >> >> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >> companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that >> leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging >> to the environment. >> >> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, >> and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, >> present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful >> thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the >> kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, >> knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature >> can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects >> of our modern lives. >> >> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle >> climate change. >> >> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the >> thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in >> the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >> deal with climate change (among other things). >> >> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need >> to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then >> they'll stop cutting our funding. >> >> All the best, >> Antonia >> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >>> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >>> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >>> and many other living beings. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Cammillo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >>> *To:* Jonathan Silk >>> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>> >>> >>> >>> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >>> because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >>> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >>> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >>> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >>> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >>> >>> >>> >>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >>> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >>> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >>> >>> >>> >>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >>> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >>> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >>> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >>> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >>> people with mundane interests. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >>> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >>> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >>> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >>> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >>> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >>> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >>> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >>> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >>> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >>> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >>> etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >>> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >>> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >>> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >>> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >>> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >>> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >>> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >>> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >>> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >>> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >>> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >>> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >>> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >>> reasonable understanding. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >>> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >>> and Bagchee. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >>> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >>> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >>> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >>> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >>> for that subject matter. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >>> wrote: >>> >>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >>> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >>> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >>> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >>> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >>> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >>> >>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >>> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >>> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >>> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >>> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >>> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >>> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >>> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >>> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >>> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >>> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >>> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >>> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >>> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >>> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >>> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >>> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >>> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >>> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >>> >>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >>> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >>> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >>> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >>> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >>> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >>> they may be, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>> re JOYDEEP >>> >>> >>> >>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >>> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >>> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >>> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >>> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >>> read Joydeep's papers? >>> >>> >>> >>> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >>> back in touch with the rest of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> George Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>> , >>> Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >>> unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 22:01:44 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 18 16:01:44 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Artur, Your query has given me an excuse to take out time to compare the new translation of the critical edition of the Mah?bh?rata by Bibek Debroy, something I had been wanting to do. Bibek Debroy translates this sentence as: I will not give the soma to anyone to drink. The first ever translation, by Kisari Mohan Ganguli, has (chapter 34): I shall not give the Soma to any one for drink. The next translation, by M. N. Dutt, has (chapter 34): I shall not give the Soma to any body to drink. The translation of this part of the critical edition by J. A. B. van Buitenen has: I shall not give it to anyone to partake of. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM Artur Karp via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Prof. Hock, > > Thanks for the detailed analysis of the sentence. > > But. 'Anyone'. > > My English-Polish/Polish-English Dictionary directs me from 'anyone' to > 'anybody'. And - according to it - 'anybody' may also mean 'somebody > unimportant'. In Polish: 'byle kto'. > > Would you - definitely - exclude this very meaning? After careful > deliberations, I decided for using it in my Polish translation of the > episode. > > Best, > > Artur Karp (MA) > Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) > Department of South Asian Studies > University of Warsaw > > > 2018-09-10 15:58 GMT+02:00 Hock, Hans Henrich : > >> Dear Colleague, >> >> The usual interpretation of the combination *kim* (interrogative >> pronoun) plus *cid* is as an indefinite, and combined with the negative * >> na*, it is best translated (in English) as ?anybody?. So the >> interpretation of the line would have to be something like ?I (aham) will >> not (na) give (d?sy?mi) soma to even (api) anyone (kasmaicid) to take >> (sam?d?tum) [it]?. So, everybody will be excluded from taking the soma. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Hans Henrich Hock >> >> >> On 10 Sep 2018, at 00:47, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear List, >> >> In Mbh I, 30.8 *b* Garuda says: >> >> na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham >> >> *kasmaicid* - (to) *whom*? >> >> Who is going to be excluded? >> >> Your opinion, please? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Artur Karp >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de Tue Sep 11 07:32:33 2018 From: michaels at asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de (Michaels, Axel) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 07:32:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India Message-ID: <33E400BA-7D9A-43FB-8EA3-B072B2D71ED3@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Dear all, In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. Best regards, Axel Michaels Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and Humanities | Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????-?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities South Asia Institute Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg, Germany http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 09:37:01 2018 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 11:37:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: <33E400BA-7D9A-43FB-8EA3-B072B2D71ED3@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: Dear Axel, I look forward to the final version of your contribution of which I heard a fascinating presentation in Delhi in November 2015. As you know, Frits Staal first expanded the concept of "science" beyond the narrow confines of "natural sciences" in order not just to include "human sciences" but also to go beyond the division between these and the natural sciences; next he showed how "India" contributed, at an early date, significantly and foremost to this "science" in a broadened sense, esp. to ritual science and linguistic science. Current "scientifications" as in the mentioned brochure, however, neglect India's contributions in ritual science (kalpa) and linguistic science (grammar, vyakarana) except for marginally mentioning phonetics: taking the narrow concept of "(natural, including, at the most, medical) science" as main reference point they make every effort to find "relevant" statements in ancient Indian literature (for Ayurveda only Sanskrit texts are considered, Siddha texts in Tamil are neglected; for other knowledge systems I am not aware of serious "Dravidian" counterclaims). In this context a question to all list members, does anyone have a scan of Frits Staal's* What Euclid is to Europe, Panini is to India -- or are they?* published in Bangalore, India: National Institute of Advanced Studies, 2005. Best, Jan Houben On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 09:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran > Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also > this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam > sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and > nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that > for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this > booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very > grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure > with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature > focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. > > > > Best regards, > > Axel Michaels > > > > Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels > > Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and > Humanities | > > Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- > ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities > > South Asia Institute > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg, Germany > > > http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 09:43:09 2018 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 19:43:09 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof Houben, Please find a pdf here: http://eprints.nias.res.in/435/ Long live D(e)utch Indology! Kind regards, Antonio On Tue., 11 Sep. 2018, 7:38 pm Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Axel, > I look forward to the final version of your contribution of which I heard > a fascinating presentation in Delhi in November 2015. As you know, Frits > Staal first expanded the concept of "science" beyond the narrow confines of > "natural sciences" in order not just to include "human sciences" but also > to go beyond the division between these and the natural sciences; next he > showed how "India" contributed, at an early date, significantly and > foremost to this "science" in a broadened sense, esp. to ritual science and > linguistic science. Current "scientifications" as in the mentioned > brochure, however, neglect India's contributions in ritual science (kalpa) > and linguistic science (grammar, vyakarana) except for marginally > mentioning phonetics: taking the narrow concept of "(natural, including, at > the most, medical) science" as main reference point they make every effort > to find "relevant" statements in ancient Indian literature (for Ayurveda > only Sanskrit texts are considered, Siddha texts in Tamil are neglected; > for other knowledge systems I am not aware of serious "Dravidian" > counterclaims). > In this context a question to all list members, does anyone have a scan of > Frits Staal's* What Euclid is to Europe, Panini is to India -- or are > they?* published in Bangalore, India: National Institute of Advanced > Studies, 2005. > Best, Jan Houben > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 09:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Axel Michaels >> >> >> >> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >> >> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >> Humanities | >> >> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >> >> South Asia Institute >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >> >> >> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 11:11:55 2018 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 13:11:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Obrigado! This one was missing in my collection. Several mentions and discussions of the alleged parallelism Euclid:Europe is appr. Panini:(classical) India exist, in French (by the brilliant German indologist August Wilhelm von Schlegel 1832), in Dutch (Staal 1963) and English (Ingalls, Staal, Bronkhorst), but I believe I am the first to have made these observations, whether one wants to agree with them or modify or reject them, accessible in Sanskrit -- fair enough, after ca. 250 years of excluding Sanskrit pandits from our discussions and "siddh?ntas" about them: https://www.academia.edu/5066874 ???????????????????? ??????????????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ?? ?????? ? ??? ????? ????????? ???????? ? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ? ????????? (???. 16) ? ???? ?? ???????? ???????? ? ????????????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ???????????? ??? ????????-??????-????? ?? ??????? ? Basic ethics in *modern* anthropology, not necessarily in 19th cent. anthropology and indology, requires that "objects" of our research should get a chance to give their own feedback on our conclusions (and, obviously, in their own preferred language). Cheers, JH On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 11:43, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim < antonio.jardim at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Prof Houben, > > Please find a pdf here: http://eprints.nias.res.in/435/ > > Long live D(e)utch Indology! > > Kind regards, > Antonio > > > > On Tue., 11 Sep. 2018, 7:38 pm Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY, < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Axel, >> I look forward to the final version of your contribution of which I heard >> a fascinating presentation in Delhi in November 2015. As you know, Frits >> Staal first expanded the concept of "science" beyond the narrow confines of >> "natural sciences" in order not just to include "human sciences" but also >> to go beyond the division between these and the natural sciences; next he >> showed how "India" contributed, at an early date, significantly and >> foremost to this "science" in a broadened sense, esp. to ritual science and >> linguistic science. Current "scientifications" as in the mentioned >> brochure, however, neglect India's contributions in ritual science (kalpa) >> and linguistic science (grammar, vyakarana) except for marginally >> mentioning phonetics: taking the narrow concept of "(natural, including, at >> the most, medical) science" as main reference point they make every effort >> to find "relevant" statements in ancient Indian literature (for Ayurveda >> only Sanskrit texts are considered, Siddha texts in Tamil are neglected; >> for other knowledge systems I am not aware of serious "Dravidian" >> counterclaims). >> In this context a question to all list members, does anyone have a scan >> of Frits Staal's* What Euclid is to Europe, Panini is to India -- or are >> they?* published in Bangalore, India: National Institute of Advanced >> Studies, 2005. >> Best, Jan Houben >> >> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 09:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >>> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >>> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >>> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >>> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >>> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >>> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >>> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >>> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >>> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Axel Michaels >>> >>> >>> >>> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >>> >>> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >>> Humanities | >>> >>> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >>> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >>> >>> South Asia Institute >>> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >>> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >>> >>> >>> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >> >> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * >> >> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpjain1903 at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 11:17:54 2018 From: rpjain1903 at gmail.com (R. P. Jain) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 16:47:54 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY LIST Message-ID: Dear Dr. Dominik I hope you are fine. My brother Mr. Rajendra Prakash Jain (rpjmlbd at gmail.com) would like to become a member of your Indology List. He is going to start an e-journal, *MLBD Journal of Vedic Renaissance* which he shall be operating under an independent foundation, *MLBD Research and Resource Foundation*. Therefore he requires support from scholars who are members of your list. The website of the foundation is www.mlbdfoundation.org. Kindly get in touch with my brother directly. Sincerely Rajeev Jain -- --------------------------- "Ananda" Villa # 7, 10 A, Rajniwas Marg Civil Lines Delhi - 110 054 (India) ----------------------------- Your enemy is your greatest teacher ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Tue Sep 11 11:21:13 2018 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 13:21:13 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" and "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina manuscripts and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate that the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, and would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in colophons to indicate as much. Kind regards, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen PhD Fellow (Indology) University of Copenhagen Denmark From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:31:07 2018 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 21:31:07 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: <33E400BA-7D9A-43FB-8EA3-B072B2D71ED3@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: Dear Prof. Michaels, Perhaps you already know of this overly misquoted article by Briggs , from which it is believed by many that NASA considers Sanskrit to be the best language for programming their computers and space ships. It seems, however, to be the source of one of the biggest factoids in relation to Sanskrit and Science. It seems that...no one who argues that Sanskrit is the best language for computing, has actually read the article. It suggests, instead, that learning case-inflected languages like Sanskrit might possibly help the computer programmer in making new, specifically-engineered languages for computing through having a better appreciation for languages. Samskrita Bharati have this publication . I was just watching this video by Sushma Swaraj, i n which by the 3rd-min, the audience learns of Sanskrit's true wonders as a programming language, amongst other things. Sanskrit will, it is alleged, even by high-ranking members of the Indian government, will heal the wounds of culture and tradition caused by modernity. Such as Prime Minister Modi?s recent factoid-laden opinion (in the first 5-minutes). Or the Minister for the MEA, Sushma Swaraj, who explained at the 16th World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok, 2015, that Sanskrit is capable of purifying the world. However, this is part of a bigger push to revive Sanskrit culture within India through the use of metaphors that suggest Sanskrit will purify all that comes in contact with it. Swaraj also asserts that Sanskrit is like the Ganges river; yet, we know that this river is terribly polluted . What, then, does this tell us about the purity of Sanskrit , and it?s ability to purify things, especially minds ? Also, I was watching this video this morning, in which, around the 19-min mark, Maria Wirth explains how the Russians apparently used knowledge from some ancient manuscript they took from the Germans after WW2 that helped them build their ICBMs. I often find myself reading Meera Nanda's work on 'Vedic science' to help understand this phenomenon. 'Science in Saffron' is quite good. And, also, prophets facing backwards . So too, Saffron Science . There is a broader discussion around pseudoscience mimicking science and the philosophy of pseudoscience , which are worth considering. Hope these links help. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto University, Japan Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +81-80-9811-3235 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) Yogascapes in Japan Academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:33 PM Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran > Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also > this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam > sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and > nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that > for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this > booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very > grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure > with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature > focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. > > > > Best regards, > > Axel Michaels > > > > Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels > > Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and > Humanities | > > Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- > ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities > > South Asia Institute > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg, Germany > > > http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 14:46:25 2018 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 20:16:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Karnataka Samskrit University- Sanskrit Learning Courses Message-ID: Dear list please see the details. *Course details* Duration 1 year *Application* Available http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/ *Last date to apply* 15th September *Fee Structure* : 1. Certificate course 1,000 Rs. 2. Diploma course1,400 Rs. *Fees payable through Demand draft only* *Payable* Finance officer , Karntaka Samskrit University *Contact* Director Adhyayananga Or Krishna Prasad +91 9632828911 Swarnadatta +91 9945459264 Address Karnataka Samskrit University Pampa Maha Kavi Road, Chamarajpete, opposite to Kannada Sahitya Parishat, Banglore 560004Dear all please see the details. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG-20180911-WA0014.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 519133 bytes Desc: not available URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 16:14:19 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 16:14:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel Cc: Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan Silk ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 16:17:44 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 16:17:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Spam:******] Re: Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Herman, It is very interesting indeed. Does this mean that also the Leiden University spam filter is racist? Or rather programmed by old white men? Best wishes, Camillo Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University's Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org -----Original Message----- From: Tieken, H.J.H. Sent: 10 September 2018 20:11 To: s.raman at utoronto.ca; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] [Spam:******] Re: Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) It may be of some interest to the participants of the present discussion on racism, nazism etc. that the last few messages did not pass the Leiden University spam filter. Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Srilata Raman via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: maandag 10 september 2018 20:25 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:******] Re: [INDOLOGY] Racism in Indology (Was: Sanskrit can tackle climate change) Dear Colleagues, We must sympathize and feel with Dr. Bagchee on this "non-racist" remark about "aging white men"! Also for the modest and clear articulation of his unsurpassed and unchallengeable "knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any Indologist." I really think there is nothing further to be said is there - on the part especially of any of us who have also, alas for us, studied "German Indology" in Germany and must now shamefully bear that dreadful cross for the rest of our lives! I will leave it to Dr. Bagchee to have the last word yet again as he usually does and must - after all I cannot claim to even have a minuscule amount of his knowledge, his vast sense of victimhood or his sheer expertise regarding the weighty matter at hand. with friendly greetings, Srilata Raman Associate Professor of Hinduism University of Toronto Quoting Joydeep via INDOLOGY : > Dear friends, > > > > The problem with Indology is perhaps greater than we think, when two > young Indian intellectuals are called names in this forum by aging white men. > > > > Remember that a few days ago there were loud demands for apologies to > women who had apparently been criticized at the WSC. Since when has it > become acceptable to scream names like ?Hindutva racist?? If only > hypocrisy could speak! > > > > Self-righteous posturing is no substitute for hard work and rigorous > research. By calling us ?Hindutva? you have only demonstrated that the > term is a weapon you use fecklessly to defend weak scholarship from criticism. > > > > Not ONE of our arguments in any of our books rests on ad hominems. Do > not display your ignorance by repeating hearsay... it only > demonstrates that you do not read. > > > > Because George Thompson raised the issue of racism in Indology, here > is our work on the subject: > > > > https://www.academia.edu/37374680/Indology_The_Origins_of_Racism_in_th > e_Humanities > . > > > > It is a review of Pascale Rabault-Feurhahn?s book *Archives of Origins*. > > > > We do not make the charge of racism lightly: it is based on a > knowledge of German history, politics, society, religion, and > philosophy that far exceeds our Germanist colleagues much less any > Indologist. When you attack us for bringing these problems to light, > you only prove their continuing existence and the timeliness of our critique. > > > > Shana Tova, > > Joydeep > > > Dr. Joydeep Bagchee > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen Academia.edu Homepage > > > The Nay Science > jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&> > Argument and Design > ata> Reading the Fifth Veda > When the Goddess Was a Woman > > Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India > > German Indology on OBO Hinduism > bo-9780195399318-0147.xml> > ___________________ > What, then, is Philosophy? > Philosophy is the supremely precious. > > Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5 > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 6:30 PM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Camillo, dear all, >> >> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say >> 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread >> does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers >> they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down >> in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that >> might be relevant in the climate change debate. >> >> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with >> respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is >> needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors >> are that are the most damaging to the environment. >> >> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit >> literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over >> the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even >> millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. >> the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As >> such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit >> literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with >> many other aspects of our modern lives. >> >> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >> tackle climate change. >> >> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of >> the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which >> people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the >> ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: >> this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). >> >> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just >> need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; >> maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. >> >> All the best, >> Antonia >> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t >>> decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead >>> for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for >>> humankind and many other living beings. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Cammillo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >>> *To:* Jonathan Silk >>> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>> >>> >>> >>> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >>> because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your >>> statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or >>> biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention >>> is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to >>> statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >>> >>> >>> >>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our >>> educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, >>> nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. >>> >>> >>> >>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >>> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >>> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery >>> to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" >>> used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta >>> used by family people with mundane interests. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my >>> understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not >>> adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other >>> strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even >>> talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. >>> That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. >>> Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and >>> responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues >>> such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >>> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two >>> professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were >>> doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of >>> self-contradictions etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of >>> early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of >>> this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the >>> symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word >>> nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to >>> stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, >>> Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is >>> not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri >>> and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal >>> in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular >>> political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism >>> may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why >>> Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why >>> Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were >>> 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries >>> and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss >>> with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when >>> I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture >>> is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those >>> who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject >>> matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >>> wrote: >>> >>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think >>> "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other >>> assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to >>> allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into >>> the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his >>> policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). >>> >>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of >>> which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is >>> naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to >>> it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >>> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories >>> concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. >>> Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of >>> those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >>> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a >>> different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than >>> whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of >>> persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, >>> or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers >>> of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an >>> incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the >>> day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the >>> Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, >>> but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take >>> solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads >>> prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >>> >>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first >>> person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against >>> one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes >>> any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. >>> Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some >>> ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and >>> unhelpful as they may be, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> re JOYDEEP >>> >>> >>> >>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, >>> mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the >>> years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" >>> because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and >>> Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. >>> Have they read Joydeep's papers? >>> >>> >>> >>> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then >>> get back in touch with the rest of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> George Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>> >> e=g>, >>> Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal >>> Education, >>> >>> >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>> options or >>> unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 16:23:11 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 21:53:11 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 16:31:28 2018 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 22:01:28 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <250ED54A-D928-419F-A637-522C192505B4@gmail.com> Dear Jacob, This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. Scholars of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both study and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). Best, TWW Sent from my iPhone > On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" and "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina manuscripts and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate that the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, and would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in colophons to indicate as much. > > Kind regards, > Jacob > > Jacob Schmidt-Madsen > PhD Fellow (Indology) > University of Copenhagen > Denmark > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 16:39:47 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 16:39:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:06:20 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 22:36:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. -Prof. Antonia Ruppel On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Tue Sep 11 17:13:54 2018 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George L. HART) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 13:13:54 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This reminds me of my own foray into Indian languages and computing. It was back when Pascal was widely used and Smalltalk (one of the first object-oriented programming languages, championed by Daniel Ingalls, Jr., the son of the famous Sanskritist) was widely discussed. Prof. Emeneau asked me to give a talk on linguistics and I decided to show how the Dravidian languages are well-adapted for computerization, or at least to show how some aspects of their structure could give insight into developing new computer languages. My idea was based on modularization. In South Dravidian (and, I would guess, other Dravidian branches), sentences have the structure SOV, and the verb can be changed from a finite verb to an adjective, noun or adverb by changing its suffix. When this is done, the sentence is then inserted into another sentence with a finite verb, which itself can then be changed into another part of speech if so desired. Dravidian thus makes it simple to create long sentences with many subsidiary parts that themselves are potential sentences. This, I thought, was something that fits the paradigm of object-oriented programming languages. In the event, my talk was scheduled at an inconvenient time and, fortunately perhaps, almost no one showed up. At present, I really don?t think any human languages are of much help in developing computer languages. The kind of modularity present in contemporary computer languages like Swift is quite different from the structure of any language I am familiar with. But, I would add, highly inflected Indo-European languages like Sanskrit and Russian strike me as singularly poor models for computer languages. Certainly, I would argue, a good case can be made that Tamil gives more insight into the sort of modularization central to programming than Sanskrit. George Hart On September 11, 2018 at 8:32:30 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY (indology at list.indology.info ) wrote: > Dear Prof. Michaels, widely > > Perhaps you already know of this overly misquoted article by Briggs , from which it is believed by many that NASA considers Sanskrit to be the best language for programming their computers and space ships. It seems, however, to be the source of one of the biggest factoids in relation to Sanskrit and Science. It seems that...no one who argues that Sanskrit is the best language for computing, has actually read the article. It suggests, instead, that learning case-inflected languages like Sanskrit might possibly help the computer programmer in making new, specifically-engineered languages for computing through having a better appreciation for languages. > > Samskrita Bharati have this publication . I was just watching this video by Sushma Swaraj, i n which by the 3rd-min, the audience learns of Sanskrit's true wonders as a programming language, amongst other things. Sanskrit will, it is alleged, even by high-ranking members of the Indian government, will heal the wounds of culture and tradition caused by modernity. Such as Prime Minister Modi?s recent factoid-laden opinion (in the first 5-minutes). Or the Minister for the MEA, Sushma Swaraj, who explained at the 16th World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok, 2015, that Sanskrit is capable of purifying the world. However, this is part of a bigger push to revive Sanskrit culture within India through the use of metaphors that suggest Sanskrit will purify all that comes in contact with it. Swaraj also asserts that Sanskrit is like the Ganges river; yet, we know that this river is terribly polluted . What, then, does this tell us about the purity of Sanskrit , and it?s ability to purify things, especially minds ? > > Also, I was watching this video this morning, in which, around the 19-min mark, Maria Wirth explains how the Russians apparently used knowledge from some ancient manuscript they took from the Germans after WW2 that helped them build their ICBMs. I often find myself reading Meera Nanda's work on 'Vedic science' to help understand this phenomenon. 'Science in Saffron' is quite good. And, also, prophets facing backwards . So too, Saffron Science . There is a broader discussion around pseudoscience mimicking science and the philosophy of pseudoscience , which are worth considering. > > Hope these links help. > > > All the best, > > ????????????? > Patrick McCartney, PhD > JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto University, Japan > Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan > Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +81- 80-9811-3235 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > bodhap?rvam calema ;-) > > > > Yogascapes in Japan > > Academia > Linkedin > > Edanz > > Modern Yoga Research > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:33 PM Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear all, > > > > In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. > > > > Best regards, > > Axel Michaels > > > > Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels > > Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and Humanities | > > Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????-?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities > > South Asia Institute > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg, Germany > > http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 17:14:15 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 17:14:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change.? Correct me if I?m wrong, but ?can help? is not the same as ?can tackle?. This means that only mankind can tackle climate change, not Sanskrit, pretty much as Henry David Thoreau?s writings or any other naturalist literature cannot per se tackle climate change, but only mankind can. Bottom line, either way, be it specific or general, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change. Again, am I right or not? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 11 September 2018 18:06 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. -Prof. Antonia Ruppel On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:22:06 2018 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 18:22:06 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 17:27:03 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 17:27:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:27:36 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 22:57:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" , "Toxicity of Sanskrit" " once the "toxicity", "extraordinary inequality" and "social poisons" of Sanskrit ' to which Prof. David Shulman had to respond saying,, " Even in Sanskrit, it?s a misconception, I think, that Sanskrit is built around this notion of tremendous power and inequality. There?s an aspect of that, but I certainly wouldn?t think of that as its major feature. Sanskrit?s a language, like any language. Everything is in it. All of human life is in it! " On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 10:52 PM, Antonia Ruppel wrote: > In isolation, the sentence > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > is like the sentence > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > All the best, > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: >> >> ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >> and for companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language >> - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures >> and literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with >> centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live >> happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts >> that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the >> necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) >> the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with >> climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? >> [emphasis mine] >> >> Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change >> and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other >> literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind >> in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even >> Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David >> Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate >> change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human >> and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. >> >> Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 >> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >> *Cc:* Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit >> can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can >> tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> >> Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, >> Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I >> misunderstood something? >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 >> *To:* Antonia Ruppel >> *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; >> Jonathan Silk ; Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. >> >> >> >> We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched >> words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. >> >> >> >> You articulated it better than I would have. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel >> wrote: >> >> Dear Camillo, dear all, >> >> >> >> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >> debate. >> >> >> >> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >> companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that >> leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging >> to the environment. >> >> >> >> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, >> and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, >> present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful >> thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the >> kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, >> knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature >> can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects >> of our modern lives. >> >> >> >> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >> tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the >> thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in >> the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >> deal with climate change (among other things). >> >> >> >> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need >> to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then >> they'll stop cutting our funding. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >> >> >> >> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >> >> >> >> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >> and many other living beings. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Cammillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >> *To:* Jonathan Silk >> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >> because German Indology has been good Indology. >> >> >> >> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >> >> >> >> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >> >> >> >> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >> people with mundane interests. >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> >> >> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >> >> >> >> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >> etc. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >> >> >> >> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >> reasonable understanding. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >> and Bagchee. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >> for that subject matter. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >> wrote: >> >> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >> >> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >> >> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >> >> >> >> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >> they may be, >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> re JOYDEEP >> >> >> >> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >> read Joydeep's papers? >> >> >> >> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >> back in touch with the rest of us. >> >> >> >> best wishes, >> >> >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:30:17 2018 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 18:30:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The attached article, which quotes the piece by Briggs that Patrick links to above, might also be of interest here. It is linked to at https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7724257/ and is part of conference proceedings rather than an article in one of IEEE's journals. The authors do their best to arrive at a positive answer of the title question ('Is Sanskrit the most suitable language for natural language processing?'), but their arguments fail to convince me. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:14, George L. HART via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > This reminds me of my own foray into Indian languages and computing. It > was back when Pascal was widely used and Smalltalk (one of the first > object-oriented programming languages, championed by Daniel Ingalls, Jr., > the son of the famous Sanskritist) was widely discussed. Prof. Emeneau > asked me to give a talk on linguistics and I decided to show how the > Dravidian languages are well-adapted for computerization, or at least to > show how some aspects of their structure could give insight into developing > new computer languages. My idea was based on modularization. In South > Dravidian (and, I would guess, other Dravidian branches), sentences have > the structure SOV, and the verb can be changed from a finite verb to an > adjective, noun or adverb by changing its suffix. When this is done, the > sentence is then inserted into another sentence with a finite verb, which > itself can then be changed into another part of speech if so desired. > Dravidian thus makes it simple to create long sentences with many > subsidiary parts that themselves are potential sentences. This, I thought, > was something that fits the paradigm of object-oriented programming > languages. In the event, my talk was scheduled at an inconvenient time and, > fortunately perhaps, almost no one showed up. > > At present, I really don?t think any human languages are of much help in > developing computer languages. The kind of modularity present in > contemporary computer languages like Swift is quite different from the > structure of any language I am familiar with. But, I would add, highly > inflected Indo-European languages like Sanskrit and Russian strike me as > singularly poor models for computer languages. Certainly, I would argue, a > good case can be made that Tamil gives more insight into the sort of > modularization central to programming than Sanskrit. George Hart > > On September 11, 2018 at 8:32:30 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY ( > indology at list.indology.info) wrote: > > Dear Prof. Michaels, widely > > Perhaps you already know of this overly misquoted article by Briggs > , from > which it is believed by many that NASA considers Sanskrit to be the best > language for programming their computers and space ships. It seems, > however, to be the source of one of the biggest factoids in relation to > Sanskrit and Science. It seems that...no one who argues that Sanskrit is > the best language for computing, has actually read the article. It > suggests, instead, that learning case-inflected languages like Sanskrit > might possibly help the computer programmer in making new, > specifically-engineered languages for computing through having a better > appreciation for languages. > > Samskrita Bharati have this publication > . > I was just watching this video by Sushma Swaraj, i > n which by the 3rd-min, the > audience learns of Sanskrit's true wonders as a programming language, > amongst other things. Sanskrit will, it is alleged, even by high-ranking > members of the Indian government, will heal the wounds of culture and > tradition caused by modernity. Such as Prime Minister Modi?s recent > factoid-laden opinion > (in the > first 5-minutes). Or the Minister for the MEA, Sushma Swaraj, > who explained at the 16th > World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok, 2015, that Sanskrit is capable of > purifying the world. However, this is part of a bigger push > to > revive Sanskrit culture within India through the use of metaphors that > suggest Sanskrit will purify all that comes in contact with it. Swaraj also > asserts that Sanskrit is like the Ganges river; yet, we know that this > river is terribly polluted > . > What, then, does this tell us about the purity of Sanskrit > , > and it?s ability to purify things, especially minds > > ? > > Also, I was watching this video this morning, in which, around the 19-min > mark, Maria Wirth explains > > how the Russians apparently used knowledge from some ancient manuscript > they took from the Germans after WW2 that helped them build their ICBMs. I > often find myself reading Meera Nanda's > > work on 'Vedic science' to help understand this phenomenon. 'Science in > Saffron' > > is quite good. And, also, prophets facing backwards > . > So too, Saffron Science > . > There is a broader discussion around pseudoscience mimicking science > and the philosophy > of pseudoscience > , > which are worth considering. > > Hope these links help. > > > All the best, > > ????? ??????? > Patrick McCartney, PhD > JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto > University, Japan > Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, > Japan > Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian > National University > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +81- <+81-80-9811-3235>80-9811-3235 <+81-80-9811-3235> > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > > Yogascapes in Japan > > Academia > > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > Modern Yoga Research > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:33 PM Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Axel Michaels >> >> >> >> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >> >> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >> Humanities | >> >> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >> >> South Asia Institute >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >> >> >> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 07724257.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 224440 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:39:18 2018 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 18:39:18 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > is like the sentence > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > All the best, > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: >> >> ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >> and for companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language >> - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures >> and literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with >> centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live >> happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts >> that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the >> necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) >> the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with >> climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? >> [emphasis mine] >> >> Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change >> and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other >> literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind >> in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even >> Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David >> Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate >> change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human >> and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. >> >> Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 >> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >> *Cc:* Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit >> can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can >> tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> >> Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, >> Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I >> misunderstood something? >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 >> *To:* Antonia Ruppel >> *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; >> Jonathan Silk ; Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. >> >> >> >> We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched >> words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. >> >> >> >> You articulated it better than I would have. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel >> wrote: >> >> Dear Camillo, dear all, >> >> >> >> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >> debate. >> >> >> >> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >> companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that >> leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging >> to the environment. >> >> >> >> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, >> and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, >> present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful >> thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the >> kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, >> knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature >> can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects >> of our modern lives. >> >> >> >> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >> tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the >> thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in >> the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >> deal with climate change (among other things). >> >> >> >> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need >> to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then >> they'll stop cutting our funding. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >> >> >> >> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >> >> >> >> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >> and many other living beings. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Cammillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >> *To:* Jonathan Silk >> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >> because German Indology has been good Indology. >> >> >> >> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >> >> >> >> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >> >> >> >> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >> people with mundane interests. >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> >> >> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >> >> >> >> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >> etc. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >> >> >> >> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >> reasonable understanding. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >> and Bagchee. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >> for that subject matter. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >> wrote: >> >> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >> >> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >> >> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >> >> >> >> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >> they may be, >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> re JOYDEEP >> >> >> >> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >> read Joydeep's papers? >> >> >> >> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >> back in touch with the rest of us. >> >> >> >> best wishes, >> >> >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:39:57 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 23:09:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks , Prof. Jan E M Houben, for reminding the scholars on the list that Basic ethics in *modern* anthropology, not necessarily in 19th cent. anthropology and indology, requires that "objects" of our research should get a chance to give their own feedback on our conclusions (and, obviously, in their own preferred language). I am glade to read, " I am the first to have made these observations, whether one wants to agree with them or modify or reject them, accessible in Sanskrit -- fair enough, after ca. 250 years of excluding Sanskrit pandits from our discussions and "siddh?ntas" about them: https://www.academia.edu/5066874 ???????????????????? ??????????????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ?? ?????? ? ??? ????? ????????? ???????? ? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ? ????????? (???. 16) ? ???? ?? ???????? ???????? ? ????????????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ???????????? ??? ????????-??????-????? ?? ??????? ? ' On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:41 PM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Obrigado! > This one was missing in my collection. > Several mentions and discussions of the alleged parallelism > Euclid:Europe is appr. Panini:(classical) India exist, in French (by the > brilliant German indologist August Wilhelm von Schlegel 1832), in Dutch > (Staal 1963) and English (Ingalls, Staal, Bronkhorst), but I believe I am > the first to have made these observations, whether one wants to agree with > them or modify or reject them, accessible in Sanskrit -- fair enough, after > ca. 250 years of excluding Sanskrit pandits from our discussions and > "siddh?ntas" about them: > https://www.academia.edu/5066874 > ???????????????????? ??????????????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ?? ?????? ? > ??? ????? ????????? ???????? ? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ? ????????? (???. > 16) ? ???? ?? ???????? ???????? ? > ????????????????? ???????? ??????????? ? > ???????????? ??? ????????-??????-????? ?? ??????? ? > Basic ethics in *modern* anthropology, not necessarily in 19th cent. > anthropology and indology, requires that "objects" of our research should > get a chance to give their own feedback on our conclusions (and, obviously, > in their own preferred language). > Cheers, > JH > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 11:43, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim < > antonio.jardim at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Prof Houben, >> >> Please find a pdf here: http://eprints.nias.res.in/435/ >> >> Long live D(e)utch Indology! >> >> Kind regards, >> Antonio >> >> >> >> On Tue., 11 Sep. 2018, 7:38 pm Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY, < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Axel, >>> I look forward to the final version of your contribution of which I >>> heard a fascinating presentation in Delhi in November 2015. As you know, >>> Frits Staal first expanded the concept of "science" beyond the narrow >>> confines of "natural sciences" in order not just to include "human >>> sciences" but also to go beyond the division between these and the natural >>> sciences; next he showed how "India" contributed, at an early date, >>> significantly and foremost to this "science" in a broadened sense, esp. to >>> ritual science and linguistic science. Current "scientifications" as in the >>> mentioned brochure, however, neglect India's contributions in ritual >>> science (kalpa) and linguistic science (grammar, vyakarana) except for >>> marginally mentioning phonetics: taking the narrow concept of "(natural, >>> including, at the most, medical) science" as main reference point they make >>> every effort to find "relevant" statements in ancient Indian literature >>> (for Ayurveda only Sanskrit texts are considered, Siddha texts in Tamil are >>> neglected; for other knowledge systems I am not aware of serious >>> "Dravidian" counterclaims). >>> In this context a question to all list members, does anyone have a scan >>> of Frits Staal's* What Euclid is to Europe, Panini is to India -- or >>> are they?* published in Bangalore, India: National Institute of >>> Advanced Studies, 2005. >>> Best, Jan Houben >>> >>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 09:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >>>> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >>>> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >>>> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >>>> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >>>> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >>>> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >>>> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >>>> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >>>> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Axel Michaels >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >>>> >>>> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >>>> Humanities | >>>> >>>> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >>>> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >>>> >>>> South Asia Institute >>>> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >>>> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >>>> >>>> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/ >>>> forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>> >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>> >>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>> >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>> >>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * >>> >>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * >>> >>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Sep 11 17:42:17 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 10:42:17 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: <250ED54A-D928-419F-A637-522C192505B4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda manuscripts from the region of Gujarat. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Jacob, > > This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with genitives to > indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. Scholars of Jainism would know > better than I any particular connoted performance contexts, but in general > this can mean for both study and recitation (at least in the case of > non-Jain manuscripts). > > Best, > TWW > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" and > "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina manuscripts and > drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate that the > text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, and would be > interested to know if they are conventionally used in colophons to indicate > as much. > > > > Kind regards, > > Jacob > > > > Jacob Schmidt-Madsen > > PhD Fellow (Indology) > > University of Copenhagen > > Denmark > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:46:07 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 23:16:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel wrote: > Dear Camillo, > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > All the best, > Antonia > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate >> change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained >> therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it >> directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >> >> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >> >> >> ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- >> >> In isolation, the sentence >> >> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >> >> is like the sentence >> >> 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' >> >> The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically >> doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in >> general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property >> specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures >> - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit >> literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit >> language. >> >> In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit >> literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to >> reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit >> (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, >> either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit >> language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. >> >> All the best, >> Antonia >> >> >> >> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nagaraj, >>> >>> >>> >>> I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: >>> >>> ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >>> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >>> and for companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language >>> - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures >>> and literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with >>> centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live >>> happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts >>> that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the >>> necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) >>> the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with >>> climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? >>> [emphasis mine] >>> >>> Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change >>> and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other >>> literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind >>> in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even >>> Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David >>> Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate >>> change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human >>> and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. >>> >>> Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> Camillo >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>> *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 >>> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >>> *Cc:* Indology >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>> >>> >>> >>> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit >>> can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can >>> tackle climate change. >>> >>> >>> >>> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, >>> Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I >>> misunderstood something? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Camillo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 >>> *To:* Antonia Ruppel >>> *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; >>> Jonathan Silk ; Indology >> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You >>> snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. >>> >>> >>> >>> You articulated it better than I would have. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Camillo, dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >>> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >>> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >>> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >>> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >>> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >>> debate. >>> >>> >>> >>> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >>> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >>> companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that >>> leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging >>> to the environment. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, >>> and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, >>> present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful >>> thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >>> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the >>> kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, >>> knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature >>> can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects >>> of our modern lives. >>> >>> >>> >>> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >>> tackle climate change. >>> >>> >>> >>> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the >>> thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in >>> the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >>> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >>> deal with climate change (among other things). >>> >>> >>> >>> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just >>> need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe >>> then they'll stop cutting our funding. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Antonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >>> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >>> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >>> and many other living beings. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Cammillo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >>> *To:* Jonathan Silk >>> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>> >>> >>> >>> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >>> because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >>> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >>> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >>> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >>> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >>> >>> >>> >>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >>> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >>> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >>> >>> >>> >>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >>> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >>> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >>> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >>> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >>> people with mundane interests. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >>> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >>> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >>> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >>> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >>> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >>> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >>> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >>> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two >>> professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >>> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >>> etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early >>> or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >>> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >>> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >>> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >>> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >>> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >>> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >>> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >>> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >>> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >>> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >>> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >>> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >>> reasonable understanding. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and >>> its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s >>> Adluri and Bagchee. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >>> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >>> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >>> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >>> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >>> for that subject matter. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >>> wrote: >>> >>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >>> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >>> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >>> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >>> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >>> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >>> >>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which >>> I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >>> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >>> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >>> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >>> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >>> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >>> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >>> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >>> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >>> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >>> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >>> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >>> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >>> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >>> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >>> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >>> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >>> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >>> >>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first >>> person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >>> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >>> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >>> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >>> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful >>> as they may be, >>> >>> >>> >>> Jonathan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>> re JOYDEEP >>> >>> >>> >>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >>> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >>> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >>> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >>> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >>> read Joydeep's papers? >>> >>> >>> >>> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >>> back in touch with the rest of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> George Thompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>> , >>> Room 0.05b >>> >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dr Antonia Ruppel >>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 18:40:57 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 18:40:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue Sep 11 19:14:34 2018 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 21:14:34 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List Memebers, First of all: my thanks to all who gave me their time and answered my query - preventing me from commiting a grave error. To Roland Steiner, Hans Henrich Hock, David and Nancy Reigle, Tracy Coleman. Now, my second question --- In Mbh I, 30.7c-e Indra says (to Garuda): 01.030.007c na k?rya? tava somena mama soma? prad?yat?m 01.030.007e asm??s te hi prab?dheyur yebhyo dady?d bhav?n imam VanBuitenen 1973: 90: "If you have no need for the soma, return the soma to me. For those to whom you may give it will forever best us". [ad 'best': Monier-Williams has several other - sort of 'sharper' - meanings for pra-b?dh: to repel, drive away, keep off (Mbh); to torment, vex, hurt, injure, annoy. By the way - Kalyanov (I value his pioneering translation immensely) 1950: 103: "Yesli ty ne nameren vospol'zovat'sya somoy, to day yeyo mne. Ibo te, kotorym sobirayesh'sya dat' yeyo, budut vredit' nam". 'Budut vredit' nam' - 'shall injure us'; no 'forever'.] *Whom the myth makers may have in mind when they speak about those who "will forever best us"? * I'd be grateful if the comments were directed to the List, not to my private e-mail address. Thanks, Artur Karp (M.A.) Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) South Asian Studies Department University of Warsaw 2018-09-10 7:47 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > Dear List, > > In Mbh I, 30.8 *b* Garuda says: > > na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham > > *kasmaicid* - (to) *whom*? > > Who is going to be excluded? > > Your opinion, please? > > Thank you, > > Artur Karp > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:21:55 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 00:51:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > >> Dear Camillo, >> >> > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle >> climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas >> contained >> > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle >> it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >> >> Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) >> can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate >> change ni which a larger perspective is useful. >> >> To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial >> mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make >> this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence >> >> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >> >> can meaningfully be used as phrased. >> >> All the best, >> Antonia >> >> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < >> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate >>> change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained >>> therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it >>> directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >>> >>> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >>> >>> >>> ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- >>> >>> In isolation, the sentence >>> >>> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >>> >>> is like the sentence >>> >>> 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' >>> >>> The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically >>> doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in >>> general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property >>> specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures >>> - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit >>> literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit >>> language. >>> >>> In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly >>> 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more >>> helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use >>> Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as >>> though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the >>> Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. >>> >>> All the best, >>> Antonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Nagaraj, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: >>>> >>>> ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >>>> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >>>> and for companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the >>>> language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other >>>> literatures and literary cultures all over the world,* present us with >>>> us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how >>>> to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many >>>> texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the >>>> necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) >>>> the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with >>>> climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? >>>> [emphasis mine] >>>> >>>> Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change >>>> and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other >>>> literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind >>>> in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even >>>> Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David >>>> Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate >>>> change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human >>>> and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. >>>> >>>> Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> >>>> Camillo >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>> >>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bodleian Libraries >>>> >>>> The Weston Library >>>> >>>> Broad Street, Oxford >>>> >>>> OX1 3BG >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>> >>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>>> >>>> in Oxford University?s >>>> >>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>>> >>>> www.mindgrowing.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>>> *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 >>>> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >>>> *Cc:* Indology >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in >>>> Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, >>>> Sanskrit can tackle climate change. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, >>>> Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I >>>> misunderstood something? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Camillo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>> >>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bodleian Libraries >>>> >>>> The Weston Library >>>> >>>> Broad Street, Oxford >>>> >>>> OX1 3BG >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>> >>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>>> >>>> in Oxford University?s >>>> >>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>>> >>>> www.mindgrowing.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 >>>> *To:* Antonia Ruppel >>>> *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; >>>> Jonathan Silk ; Indology < >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You >>>> snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You articulated it better than I would have. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel < >>>> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Camillo, dear all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >>>> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >>>> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >>>> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >>>> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >>>> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >>>> debate. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >>>> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >>>> and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research >>>> that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most >>>> damaging to the environment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit >>>> literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the >>>> world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of >>>> careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for >>>> others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, >>>> i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As >>>> such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit >>>> literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many >>>> other aspects of our modern lives. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >>>> tackle climate change. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of >>>> the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people >>>> in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >>>> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >>>> deal with climate change (among other things). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just >>>> need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe >>>> then they'll stop cutting our funding. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t >>>> decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >>>> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >>>> and many other living beings. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cammillo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>> >>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bodleian Libraries >>>> >>>> The Weston Library >>>> >>>> Broad Street, Oxford >>>> >>>> OX1 3BG >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>> >>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>>> >>>> in Oxford University?s >>>> >>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>>> >>>> www.mindgrowing.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >>>> *To:* Jonathan Silk >>>> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >>>> because German Indology has been good Indology. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >>>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >>>> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >>>> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >>>> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >>>> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >>>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >>>> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >>>> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >>>> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >>>> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >>>> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >>>> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >>>> people with mundane interests. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my >>>> understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced >>>> enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of >>>> Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German >>>> Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a >>>> minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people >>>> asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I >>>> responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German >>>> Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied >>>> by me so well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two >>>> professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >>>> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early >>>> or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >>>> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >>>> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >>>> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >>>> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >>>> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >>>> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >>>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >>>> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >>>> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >>>> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >>>> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >>>> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >>>> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >>>> reasonable understanding. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and >>>> its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s >>>> Adluri and Bagchee. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >>>> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >>>> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >>>> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >>>> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >>>> for that subject matter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >>>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >>>> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >>>> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >>>> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >>>> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >>>> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >>>> >>>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which >>>> I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >>>> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >>>> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >>>> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >>>> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >>>> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >>>> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >>>> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >>>> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >>>> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >>>> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >>>> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >>>> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >>>> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >>>> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >>>> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >>>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >>>> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >>>> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >>>> >>>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first >>>> person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >>>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >>>> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >>>> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >>>> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >>>> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful >>>> as they may be, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jonathan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> re JOYDEEP >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >>>> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >>>> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >>>> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >>>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >>>> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >>>> read Joydeep's papers? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >>>> back in touch with the rest of us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> best wishes, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> George Thompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> J. Silk >>>> Leiden University >>>> >>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>>> >>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>>> , >>>> Room 0.05b >>>> >>>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>>> >>>> The Netherlands >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at >>>> >>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Dr Antonia Ruppel >>>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Antonia Ruppel >>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 20:20:49 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 14:20:49 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: <33E400BA-7D9A-43FB-8EA3-B072B2D71ED3@asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de> Message-ID: Dear Axel, Madhusudana Ojha (1866-1939) was an important early-twentieth century voice in popularizing this view. He published a lot of material, like *Indravijaya*, some of which still circulates I believe. I once visited his former home in Jaipur, and many of his unpublished papers and diagrams were still there, and the family was keeping alive a devotion to his cosmic visions and scientist message. One of Ojha's students was Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal ??str? (1908-1960) who continued to publish in the same vein, as do others . Some notes from my visit in 2011: *Manvashram *(map ) Shree Krishna Sharma, Gopalpura Mode, Tonk Road, Jaipur. A little , quiet, grassy enclosed courtyard with a grazing cow. Various buildings around, labelled "university," printing press," etc., as if it were a small campus. And a rusting 1903 English printing press at the front. Not a single Sanskrit MS, though. The story of the place is quite interesting, nevertheless. *Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal ??str?* (1908-1960) was the spirit of the place, and the father of the present occupant. Motilal wrote 80,000 pages of materials on the interpretation of the Veda and on the ?atapathabr?hma?a. He discovered a special code or cypher that explained everything. He also developed a series of coloured geometrical drawings that showed a kind of evolutionary and hierarchical cosmology. It turns out that his teacher was *Madhusudana Ojha* (1866-1939), which explains all the pseudo-science and back-to-the-vedas ideology (independent of the Arya Samaj, as far as I know). Motilal ??str?'s father Balendu (I think) had the first printing press in Jaipur. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 01:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > > > In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran > Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also > this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam > sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and > nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that > for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this > booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very > grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure > with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature > focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. > > > > Best regards, > > Axel Michaels > > > > Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels > > Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and > Humanities | > > Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- > ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities > > South Asia Institute > Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 > 69120 Heidelberg, Germany > > > http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Sep 11 23:39:57 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 18 16:39:57 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: ???????????? ????????? ?? ?????????? ??????? ?? ? ? ? ???????????????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? Am I awake or asleep? Is this a dream or reality? I don?t know anything. O Lord, stay near me. ??????? ?? ??????????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???????: ??????? O Lord, what difference does it make to me if it is a dream or reality, if the Lord is always awake in my heart? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 04:46:41 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:16:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha Message-ID: <5b989a35.1c69fb81.c06ea.38d8@mx.google.com> Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha.?I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM? (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry.????? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 04:51:25 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:21:25 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gc2hhIGFuZCBraGE=?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5b989b52.1c69fb81.ddafe.2ff4@mx.google.com> Dear colleaguesSorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaningdaughter-in-law and not grand daughter.Girish K.Jha Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: jhakgirish Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha.?I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM? (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry.????? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 04:54:55 2018 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:24:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sorry for error in haste Message-ID: <5b989c23.1c69fb81.ddafe.30c2@mx.google.com> Dear colleaguesSorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaningdaughter-in-law and not grand daughter.Girish K.JhaSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: jhakgirish Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM? (GMT+05:30) To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha.?I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM? (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry.????? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 05:06:47 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:36:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Prof. Dominik Wujastyk for bringing origins of such ideas into discussion and mentioning Arya Samaj. That may indicate that you are aware of the origin of such ideas in Arya Samaj. Whether you are aware or not, Swami Dayananda Saraswati , the founder of Arya Samaj, in his Rigvedadi Bhaashya Bhumikaa tries to show 'sciences' such as Astronomy, political thought etc. in the Vedas. When you trace the origins of ideas such as ' all science is rooted in India.' to such 19th century ideas as those of the founder of Arya Samaj, you can see those ideas to be the extreme opposite ideas to the view of Indians as savage, barbarian, ignorant lot without any rational thinking, full of superstitions etc. Those ideas were a reaction to the humiliation of a colonised nation by the coloniser community. This article is one of many historical studies of such humiliating attitude of the intellectuals from the community of the British people who colonised India. "No science, no rational / logical thinking" was responded with claims ranging from "no dearth for logical thinking, 'sciences etc.' " up to the claims of all 'sciences'. India-humiliating colonial historiography was responded to by India- praising nationalist historiography. Though most of the nationalist historiographers were rigorous in their methodology and were careful enough not to make unjustifiable claims, as it always happens, particularly in the emotional conditions such as the Indian national movement, the tracing of ancient India's advancements in various knowledge areas lead to the popular exaggerations such as ' all science is rooted in India.' . The two models of knowledge development, both extremes exaggerations, one of "Paradise Lost" and the other of linear evolutionist strand for which all older knowledge has to be inferior to the newer one by definition, have been running parallel to each other, opposing each other, swinging the pendulum to their own extremes. The claims such as ' , of the all science is rooted in India.' of the "Paradise Lost" school of thought very quickly exploited by the linear evolutionist strand for discounting the well founded claims of advanced knowledge in India in certain knowledge areas. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Axel, > > Madhusudana Ojha > > (1866-1939) was an important early-twentieth century voice in popularizing > this view. He published a lot of material, like *Indravijaya*, some of > which still circulates I believe. I once visited his former home in > Jaipur, and many of his unpublished papers and diagrams were still there, > and the family was keeping alive a devotion to his cosmic visions and > scientist message. One of Ojha's students was Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal > ??str? (1908-1960) who continued to publish in the same vein, as do others > . > > Some notes from my visit in 2011: > > *Manvashram *(map ) > Shree Krishna Sharma, Gopalpura Mode, Tonk Road, Jaipur. > A little , quiet, grassy enclosed courtyard with a grazing cow. Various > buildings around, labelled "university," printing press," etc., as if it > were a small campus. And a rusting 1903 English printing press at the > front. > Not a single Sanskrit MS, though. The story of the place is quite > interesting, nevertheless. *Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal ??str?* > (1908-1960) was the spirit of the place, and the father of the present > occupant. Motilal wrote 80,000 pages of materials on the interpretation of > the Veda and on the ?atapathabr?hma?a. He discovered a special code or > cypher that explained everything. He also developed a series of coloured > geometrical drawings that showed a kind of evolutionary and hierarchical > cosmology. It turns out that his teacher was *Madhusudana Ojha* > (1866-1939), which explains all the pseudo-science and back-to-the-vedas > ideology (independent of the Arya Samaj, as far as I know). > Motilal ??str?'s father Balendu (I think) had the first printing press in > Jaipur. > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 01:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Axel Michaels >> >> >> >> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >> >> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >> Humanities | >> >> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >> >> South Asia Institute >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >> >> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index. >> de.html >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 07:17:53 2018 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 16:17:53 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This article by Scott Lowe looks at TM and the issues of vedic science and science. Another fascinating example that seems to offer a confluence of Nagaraj's parallel streams is the FVI, and their aspiration to re-establish a Vedic India. This page has some of their videos that introduce the TM concepts. Typical of TM, their research is exceptionally pseudosciency. One of the speakers was no other than Ramdev swami, who claims that the goal is to first create a Vedic (Hindu) nation then Vedic world. It would seem that, like the Sangh's pivot to using Upadhaya's Integral Humanism instead of the more controversial, Hindutva, the rhetorical pivot to Vedic also serves to obfuscate this theo-political aspiration. One of the key members of the AVI is John Hagelin, who used to work at CERN (the physics lab), but was too controversial. So controversial in fact that CERN wrote an open letter to him asking him to stop mentioning his former association with them. But not too controversial to be awarded the Ig Nobel Prize . The following is an excerpt from an article currently under review in which I discuss, in part, Hagelin's views: As Eriksen explains, 97 through the commodification of local products into distant imaginary *-scapes*, many concepts borrowed from science become theoretically dis-embedded through their use in popular mediums; which promotes ?representational incorrectness?. This is evidenced in a series of lectures facilitated by the Vedic India Foundation,98 which present an idea of quantum physics with a new-age interpretation of Vedic cosmology that ultimately serves to create a Vedic India and world through combining it with string theory.99 However, Woit100 argues strongly against this position, ?Virtually every theoretical physicist in the world rejects all of this as nonsense and the work of a crackpot?. Ultimately, promoters of ?Vedic Science? aim to legitimise a Hindu nationalist worldview.10 97 Eriksen T.H., *Globalization: The key concepts, *Bloomsbury, New York, 2014. 98 Vedic India Foundation, International Conference to Re-establish Vedic India, *http://* *www.vedicindiafoundation.org/ *(accessed 14.072015). 99 Scientific Basis for Vedic India, Dr. John Hagelin: Veda and Physics: The Science and Technology of the Unified Field, *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u3f7_p1i8c&t=22s *(accessed 09.07.2018). 100 Woit Peter, *Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Continuing *Challenge to Unify the Laws of Physics, Jonathan Cape, London, 2006, pp 209-210. 101 Nanda, 2003, p. 95. Some 20 years ago, I was deeply enamored by NC Panda's books that seek to combine advaita darshanas with quantam theory. I had the good fortune of staying with him in his home in Bhubaneswar. I fondly remember a discussion around scalar waves and samadhi. This collaboration by Deepak Chopra and physicist Leonard Mlodinow is also quite interesting. While they don't agree on many things, it's an interesting project. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto University, Japan Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +81-80-9811-3235 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) Yogascapes in Japan Academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thanks, Prof. Dominik Wujastyk for bringing origins of such ideas into > discussion and mentioning Arya Samaj. That may indicate that you are aware > of the origin of such ideas in Arya Samaj. Whether you are aware or not, > Swami Dayananda Saraswati , the founder of Arya Samaj, in his Rigvedadi > Bhaashya Bhumikaa tries to show 'sciences' such as Astronomy, political > thought etc. in the Vedas. > > When you trace the origins of ideas such as ' all science is rooted in > India.' to such 19th century ideas as those of the founder of Arya Samaj, > you can see those ideas to be the extreme opposite ideas to the view of > Indians as savage, barbarian, ignorant lot without any rational thinking, > full of superstitions etc. Those ideas were a reaction to the humiliation > of a colonised nation by the coloniser community. This article > is one of many > historical studies of such humiliating attitude of the intellectuals from > the community of the British people who colonised India. "No science, no > rational / logical thinking" was responded with claims ranging from "no > dearth for logical thinking, 'sciences etc.' " up to the claims of all > 'sciences'. India-humiliating colonial historiography was responded to by > India- praising nationalist historiography. Though most of the nationalist > historiographers were rigorous in their methodology and were careful enough > not to make unjustifiable claims, as it always happens, particularly in the > emotional conditions such as the Indian national movement, the tracing of > ancient India's advancements in various knowledge areas lead to the popular > exaggerations such as ' all science is rooted in India.' . The two > models of knowledge development, both extremes exaggerations, one of > "Paradise Lost" and the other of linear evolutionist strand for which all > older knowledge has to be inferior to the newer one by definition, have > been running parallel to each other, opposing each other, swinging the > pendulum to their own extremes. The claims such as ' , of the all > science is rooted in India.' of the "Paradise Lost" school of thought > very quickly exploited by the linear evolutionist strand for discounting > the well founded claims of advanced knowledge in India in certain knowledge > areas. > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Axel, >> >> Madhusudana Ojha >> >> (1866-1939) was an important early-twentieth century voice in popularizing >> this view. He published a lot of material, like *Indravijaya*, some of >> which still circulates I believe. I once visited his former home in >> Jaipur, and many of his unpublished papers and diagrams were still there, >> and the family was keeping alive a devotion to his cosmic visions and >> scientist message. One of Ojha's students was Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal >> ??str? (1908-1960) who continued to publish in the same vein, as do >> others . >> >> Some notes from my visit in 2011: >> >> *Manvashram *(map ) >> Shree Krishna Sharma, Gopalpura Mode, Tonk Road, Jaipur. >> A little , quiet, grassy enclosed courtyard with a grazing cow. Various >> buildings around, labelled "university," printing press," etc., as if it >> were a small campus. And a rusting 1903 English printing press at the >> front. >> Not a single Sanskrit MS, though. The story of the place is quite >> interesting, nevertheless. *Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal ??str?* >> (1908-1960) was the spirit of the place, and the father of the present >> occupant. Motilal wrote 80,000 pages of materials on the interpretation of >> the Veda and on the ?atapathabr?hma?a. He discovered a special code or >> cypher that explained everything. He also developed a series of coloured >> geometrical drawings that showed a kind of evolutionary and hierarchical >> cosmology. It turns out that his teacher was *Madhusudana Ojha* >> (1866-1939), which explains all the pseudo-science and back-to-the-vedas >> ideology (independent of the Arya Samaj, as far as I know). >> Motilal ??str?'s father Balendu (I think) had the first printing press in >> Jaipur. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> , >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> , >> University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> sas.ualberta.ca >> >> >> >> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 01:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >>> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >>> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >>> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >>> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >>> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >>> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >>> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >>> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >>> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Axel Michaels >>> >>> >>> >>> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >>> >>> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >>> Humanities | >>> >>> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >>> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >>> >>> South Asia Institute >>> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >>> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >>> >>> >>> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Sep 12 07:29:11 2018 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 07:29:11 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_new_book_by_Peter_Bisschop:_Universal_=C5=9Aaivism?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Allow me to draw your attention to Peter Bisschop's new book Universal ?aivism: The Appeasement of All Gods and Powers in the ??ntyadhy?ya of the ?ivadharma??stra that has just been published. Thanks to the support of the Gonda foundation the book is available in Open Access. You can download it for free via this link: https://brill.com/view/title/39141. Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Sep 12 07:32:15 2018 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 09:32:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <18E497BF-BB9D-497C-A8E8-487B81B961A5@uclouvain.be> The snakes (to whom Garu?a is ready to bring the stolen Soma). See the story as told in the late Vedic metrical play Supar??dhy?ya, s?kta 14, varga 28, v. 10, ed. and transl. Gaya Charan Tripathi (New Delhi: Nat.Mis.Mss and DKPrintworld, 2016), pp. 252 (critically restored text), 295 (transl.) indu? cet sarp?? p?syanti tvay? datta? viha?gama | ajana? te kari?yanti tan na s?dhu bhavi?yati ||10|| [Indra to Garu?a] ?In case the snakes [are allowed to] drink the Soma (= am?tam) [bought by you and] given to them, [[o Bird]], they will make a clean sweep of all human beings [on earth]. This [surely] wouldn't be nice.? And in s?kta 15, varga 29, v. 6, Indra turning to Garu?a (who has visited the serpents, but has not given them the Sma): ?I have excelled all my ennemies in might. Because of my might I am all in this (i.e. overlord of this) world. How did you [dare to] take away by force the Soma which is pressed [especially] for such a mightier than mighty [person] like me.? So one can infer that the soma provides this almightiness. > Le 11 sept. 2018 ? 21:14, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > Dear List Memebers, > > First of all: my thanks to all who gave me their time and answered my query - preventing me from commiting a grave error. To Roland Steiner, Hans Henrich Hock, David and Nancy Reigle, Tracy Coleman. > > Now, my second question --- > > In Mbh I, 30.7c-e Indra says (to Garuda): > > 01.030.007c na k?rya? tava somena mama soma? prad?yat?m > 01.030.007e asm??s te hi prab?dheyur yebhyo dady?d bhav?n imam > > VanBuitenen 1973: 90: "If you have no need for the soma, return the soma to me. For those to whom you may give it will forever best us". > > [ad 'best': Monier-Williams has several other - sort of 'sharper' - meanings for pra-b?dh: to repel, drive away, keep off (Mbh); to torment, vex, hurt, injure, annoy. > > By the way - Kalyanov (I value his pioneering translation immensely) 1950: 103: "Yesli ty ne nameren vospol'zovat'sya somoy, to day yeyo mne. Ibo te, kotorym sobirayesh'sya dat' yeyo, budut vredit' nam". 'Budut vredit' nam' - 'shall injure us'; no 'forever'.] > > Whom the myth makers may have in mind when they speak about those who "will forever best us"? > > I'd be grateful if the comments were directed to the List, not to my private e-mail address. > > Thanks, > > Artur Karp (M.A.) > Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) > South Asian Studies Department > University of Warsaw > > > > 2018-09-10 7:47 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp >: > Dear List, > > In Mbh I, 30.8 b Garuda says: > > na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham > > kasmaicid - (to) whom? > > Who is going to be excluded? > > Your opinion, please? > > Thank you, > > Artur Karp > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 08:20:29 2018 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:20:29 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Just published: Yoga in Transformation: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The following edited volume was just published by Vienna University Press: Karl Baier, Philipp A. Maas and Karin Preisendanz. *Yoga in Transformation*: *Historical and Contemporary Perspectives.* Vienna: Vienna University Press, 2018 (Vienna Forum for Theology and the Study of Religions 16). 630 p., ISBN Print: 9783847108627 ? ISBN E-Lib: 9783737008624. 85,- ?. Thanks to the support of the Rectorate of the University of Vienna, the Association Mon?gasque pour la Recherche Acad?mique sur le Yoga (AMRAY) and the European Research Council (ERC), the volume is published in open access. A PDF-file of the volume is downloadable free of charge here . For the table of contents, please see the attached file. With best wishes, Philipp Maas __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ToC_Yogaintransformation.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 357841 bytes Desc: not available URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 09:01:51 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 09:01:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:09:23 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 14:39:23 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I >> don't think any language can be toxic. >> >> I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle >> climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate >> change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, >> and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" >> cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit >> cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. >> >> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >> >> >> ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- >> >> >> That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. >> >> Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. >> >> It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as >> "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > > wrote: >> >>> Dear Camillo, >>> >>> > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle >>> climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas >>> contained >>> > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle >>> it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >>> >>> Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained >>> therein) can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as >>> climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. >>> >>> To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial >>> mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make >>> this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence >>> >>> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >>> >>> can meaningfully be used as phrased. >>> >>> All the best, >>> Antonia >>> >>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < >>> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle >>>> climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas >>>> contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can >>>> tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >>>> >>>> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >>>> >>>> >>>> ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- >>>> >>>> In isolation, the sentence >>>> >>>> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >>>> >>>> is like the sentence >>>> >>>> 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' >>>> >>>> The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically >>>> doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in >>>> general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property >>>> specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures >>>> - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit >>>> literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit >>>> language. >>>> >>>> In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly >>>> 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more >>>> helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use >>>> Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as >>>> though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the >>>> Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Nagaraj, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: >>>>> >>>>> ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >>>>> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >>>>> and for companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the >>>>> language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other >>>>> literatures and literary cultures all over the world,* present us >>>>> with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on >>>>> how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are >>>>> many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that >>>>> is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of >>>>> (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed >>>>> help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our >>>>> modern lives.? [emphasis mine] >>>>> >>>>> Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change >>>>> and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other >>>>> literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind >>>>> in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even >>>>> Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David >>>>> Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate >>>>> change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human >>>>> and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. >>>>> >>>>> Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Camillo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>>> >>>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bodleian Libraries >>>>> >>>>> The Weston Library >>>>> >>>>> Broad Street, Oxford >>>>> >>>>> OX1 3BG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>>> >>>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>>>> >>>>> in Oxford University?s >>>>> >>>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>>>> >>>>> www.mindgrowing.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 >>>>> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >>>>> *Cc:* Indology >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in >>>>> Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, >>>>> Sanskrit can tackle climate change. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, >>>>> Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I >>>>> misunderstood something? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Camillo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>>> >>>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bodleian Libraries >>>>> >>>>> The Weston Library >>>>> >>>>> Broad Street, Oxford >>>>> >>>>> OX1 3BG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>>> >>>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>>>> >>>>> in Oxford University?s >>>>> >>>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>>>> >>>>> www.mindgrowing.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 >>>>> *To:* Antonia Ruppel >>>>> *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; >>>>> Jonathan Silk ; Indology < >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You >>>>> snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You articulated it better than I would have. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel < >>>>> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Camillo, dear all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >>>>> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >>>>> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >>>>> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >>>>> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >>>>> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >>>>> debate. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live >>>>> moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, >>>>> and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research >>>>> that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most >>>>> damaging to the environment. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit >>>>> literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the >>>>> world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of >>>>> careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for >>>>> others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, >>>>> i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As >>>>> such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit >>>>> literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many >>>>> other aspects of our modern lives. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >>>>> tackle climate change. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of >>>>> the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people >>>>> in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >>>>> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >>>>> deal with climate change (among other things). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just >>>>> need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe >>>>> then they'll stop cutting our funding. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> >>>>> Antonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t >>>>> decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead >>>>> for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for >>>>> humankind and many other living beings. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cammillo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>>>> >>>>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bodleian Libraries >>>>> >>>>> The Weston Library >>>>> >>>>> Broad Street, Oxford >>>>> >>>>> OX1 3BG >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>>> >>>>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >>>>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>>>> >>>>> in Oxford University?s >>>>> >>>>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>>>> >>>>> www.mindgrowing.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >>>>> *To:* Jonathan Silk >>>>> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >>>>> because German Indology has been good Indology. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >>>>> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >>>>> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >>>>> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >>>>> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >>>>> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >>>>> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >>>>> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >>>>> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >>>>> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >>>>> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >>>>> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >>>>> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >>>>> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >>>>> people with mundane interests. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my >>>>> understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced >>>>> enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of >>>>> Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German >>>>> Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a >>>>> minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people >>>>> asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I >>>>> responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German >>>>> Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied >>>>> by me so well. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two >>>>> professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >>>>> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early >>>>> or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of >>>>> this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >>>>> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >>>>> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >>>>> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >>>>> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >>>>> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >>>>> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >>>>> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >>>>> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >>>>> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >>>>> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >>>>> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >>>>> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >>>>> reasonable understanding. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and >>>>> its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s >>>>> Adluri and Bagchee. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >>>>> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >>>>> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >>>>> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >>>>> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >>>>> for that subject matter. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >>>>> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >>>>> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >>>>> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >>>>> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >>>>> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >>>>> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >>>>> >>>>> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of >>>>> which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally >>>>> an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please >>>>> please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly >>>>> clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories >>>>> concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they >>>>> are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage >>>>> in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond >>>>> in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a >>>>> different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we >>>>> should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history >>>>> is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >>>>> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >>>>> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >>>>> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >>>>> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >>>>> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >>>>> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >>>>> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >>>>> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first >>>>> person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >>>>> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >>>>> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >>>>> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >>>>> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >>>>> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful >>>>> as they may be, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> re JOYDEEP >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >>>>> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >>>>> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >>>>> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >>>>> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >>>>> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >>>>> read Joydeep's papers? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then >>>>> get back in touch with the rest of us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> George Thompson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> J. Silk >>>>> Leiden University >>>>> >>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>>>> >>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>>>> , >>>>> Room 0.05b >>>>> >>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>>>> >>>>> The Netherlands >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> copies of my publications may be found at >>>>> >>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Dr Antonia Ruppel >>>>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr Antonia Ruppel >>>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Antonia Ruppel >>> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.shaw at ucl.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 09:11:01 2018 From: julia.shaw at ucl.ac.uk (Shaw, Julia) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 09:11:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] re. Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Further to Antonia Ruppell's pertinent remarks on this topic, some of you may be interested in my recent edited volume on Archaeology and Environmental Ethics which calls for those studying environmental events past and present to give greater thought to the religio-philosophical and epistemological roots of the historically specific human?environmental relationships that underlie our current environmental and climate-change crisis, and to question how differing attitudes towards the relationship between humans and non-humans may produce distinct environmental trajectories and responses to extreme events. https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rwar20/48/4 The following is from the Introduction: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2016.132675 The volume brings together papers on archaeology? s engagement with the ethical dimension of past:present:future global environmental discourse, arguing that the study of historically specific human:non-human:environment worldviews and epistemologies, particularly those in which religio-cultural constructs regarding humans? place in the world are shaping forces in economic, socio-political and environmental action, should be key to building long-term perspectives on the current global environmental crisis. Its publication is timely given the growing cross-disciplinary interest in Anthropocene studies with which archaeology has only recently begun to engage, albeit generally with the rather restricted aim of promoting its capacity to deepen temporal perspectives on the social-construction-of-? nature? theme that permeates Anthropocene discussions and to provide empirical evidence for practical and material responses to climate change and extreme environmental events, as relevant models for present:future challenges. Further, the related human:environmental ? entanglement? discourse has, with recent exceptions (Lane 2015 ), tended to focus on agrarian and technological agents of change, rather than on underlying ethical frameworks whether driven by explicit religious theologies and epistemologies or through more broadly applicable ideological ? worldviews? akin to Latour? s (2013b ) ? secular religion? . Finally, archaeology? s growing interest in the generalized term ? climate change? , itself a symptom of deeper human:environment imbalance, tends to overlook the diversity and variation of impact in terms of both causal contributing factors and individualized impact at a human level. The volume arose from the need to address these problems through examination of historical concepts of human:non-human care in relation to environmental ethics and historical socioecology and assessment of how particular social, religious, or political groups responded to new environmental challenges in antiquity. My own contribution addresses gaps in the understanding of the interface between religious, socio-economic and environmental change in ancient India, perpetuated partly by a lack of coordinated interdisciplinary teamwork between Indology and archaeology, and queries to what extent ancient Indian religio-philosophical traditions upheld notions of ? nature? , ? environment? and environmental ethics that can contribute to contemporary discourse on our climate / environmental change crisis. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2016.1250671 Best wishes Julia Shaw ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr Julia Shaw Lecturer in South Asian Archaeology Chair of Ethics Committee Tutor for Academic Writing Institute of Archaeology UCL 31-34 Gordon Square London WC1H 0PY http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/academic/julia-shaw https://ucl.academia.edu/juliashaw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:25:02 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 14:55:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] re. Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For a sample of a kind of archeological discussion of environmental aspects of ancient India, ADDRESS OF THE SECTIONAL PRESIDENT: ENVIRONMENT, ROYAL POLICY AND SOCIAL FORMATION IN THE EASTERN GHATS SOUTH INDIA, A.D. 1000 - 1500 M.L.K. MURTY Proceedings of the Indian History Congress Vol. 53 (1992), pp. 615-631 https://www.jstor.org/stable/44142879?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents Prof. M L K Murty passed away recently. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Shaw, Julia via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Further to Antonia Ruppell's pertinent remarks on this topic, some of you > may be interested in my recent edited volume on Archaeology > and Environmental Ethics which calls for those studying environmental > events past and present to give greater thought to the > religio-philosophical and epistemological roots of the historically > specific human?environmental relationships that underlie our current > environmental and climate-change crisis, and to question how differing > attitudes towards the relationship between humans and non-humans may > produce distinct environmental trajectories and responses to extreme > events. > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rwar20/48/4 > > > The following is from the Introduction: https://www. > tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2016.132675 > > > > The volume brings together papers on archaeology? s engagement with the > ethical dimension of > > past:present:future global environmental discourse, arguing that the study > of historically specific > > human:non-human:environment worldviews and epistemologies, particularly > those in which > > religio-cultural constructs regarding humans? place in the world are > shaping forces in economic, > > socio-political and environmental action, should be key to building > long-term perspectives on the > > current global environmental crisis. Its publication is timely given the > growing cross-disciplinary > > interest in Anthropocene studies with which archaeology has only recently > begun to engage, > > albeit generally with the rather restricted aim of promoting its capacity > to deepen temporal > > perspectives on the social-construction-of-? nature? theme that > permeates Anthropocene discussions > > and to provide empirical evidence for practical and material responses to > climate change and > > extreme environmental events, as relevant models for present:future > challenges. Further, the > > related human:environmental ? entanglement? discourse has, with recent > exceptions (Lane 2015 ), > > tended to focus on agrarian and technological agents of change, rather > than on underlying ethical > > frameworks whether driven by explicit religious theologies and > epistemologies or through more > > broadly applicable ideological ? worldviews? akin to Latour? s (2013b ) > ? secular religion? . Finally, > > archaeology? s growing interest in the generalized term ? climate change? > , itself a symptom of > > deeper human:environment imbalance, tends to overlook the diversity and > variation of impact > > in terms of both causal contributing factors and individualized impact at > a human level. > > The volume arose from the need to address these problems through > examination of historical > > concepts of human:non-human care in relation to environmental ethics and > historical socioecology > > and assessment of how particular social, religious, or political groups > responded to new > > environmental challenges in antiquity. > > > My own contribution addresses gaps in the understanding of the interface > between religious, socio-economic and environmental change in ancient India > , perpetuated partly by a lack of coordinated interdisciplinary teamwork > between Indology and archaeology, and queries to what extent ancient > Indian religio-philosophical traditions upheld notions of ? nature? , ? > environment? and environmental ethics that can contribute to > contemporary discourse on our climate / environmental change crisis. > > > https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2016.1250671 > > > > > Best wishes > > Julia Shaw > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Dr Julia Shaw > > Lecturer in South Asian Archaeology > Chair of Ethics Committee > Tutor for Academic Writing > Institute of Archaeology UCL > 31-34 Gordon Square > London WC1H 0PY > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/academic/julia-shaw > > https://ucl.academia.edu/juliashaw > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 09:42:04 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 09:42:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:48:59 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:18:59 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > is like the sentence > > > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 09:51:30 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 09:51:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 09:57:26 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:27:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > What about this? > > > > ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as > mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. > > > > I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > is like the sentence > > > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:01:37 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:01:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:08:19 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:38:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle > climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than > the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, > now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate > change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? > > > > It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the > rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:57 > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: > > > > " > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > " > > > > This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us > tackle climate change. " > > > > The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " > > > > does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > What about this? > > > > ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as > mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. > > > > I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > is like the sentence > > > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > ... > > [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:09:27 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:39:27 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: alam ativistarENa ityEva mEpi matih On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' > conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the > reported part. > > Thus in > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. > > That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by > > Dr Ruppel's > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle >> climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can >> >> tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than >> the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, >> now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate >> change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? >> >> >> >> It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the >> rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate >> change? >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:57 >> >> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >> *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: >> >> >> >> " >> >> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit >> >> can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can >> >> tackle climate change. >> >> " >> >> >> >> This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's >> >> >> >> " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >> tackle climate change. " >> >> >> >> The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " >> >> >> >> does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < >> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> What about this? >> >> >> >> ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. >> >> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? >> >> >> >> So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 >> >> >> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >> *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as >> mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. >> >> >> >> I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < >> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? >> >> >> >> Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology. >> info/2018-September/142992.html >> >> >> >> ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? >> >> >> >> Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit >> can tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? >> >> >> >> ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? >> >> >> >> Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology. >> info/2018-September/142995.html >> >> >> >> By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance >> to academic titles. >> >> >> >> So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate >> change? >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 >> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >> *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? >> >> >> >> Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? >> >> >> >> Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < >> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely >> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel >> provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I >> understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you >> replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. >> After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature >> can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The >> thread is there for everyone to be read. >> >> >> >> Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which >> is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple >> answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether >> Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. >> Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> >> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >> >> >> >> ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- >> >> Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any >> language is not toxic. >> >> >> >> Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. >> >> >> >> Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it >> can not tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' >> attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific >> book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian >> attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " >> Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards >> traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at >> the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key >> to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity >> from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the >> uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit >> articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is >> the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very >> clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. >> as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of >> ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But >> this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient >> Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of >> the list, we are doing it here. >> >> >> >> I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> anywhere in the thread. >> >> >> >> When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the >> thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would >> have said the same. >> >> >> >> This book >> and >> Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher >> discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < >> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I >> don't think any language can be toxic. >> >> >> >> I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle >> climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate >> change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, >> and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" >> cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit >> cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. >> >> >> >> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >> >> >> >> ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- >> >> >> >> That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. >> >> >> >> Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. >> >> >> >> It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as >> "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel >> wrote: >> >> Dear Camillo, >> >> >> >> > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle >> climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas >> contained >> >> > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle >> it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >> >> >> >> Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) >> can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate >> change ni which a larger perspective is useful. >> >> >> >> To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial >> mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make >> this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence >> >> >> >> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >> >> >> >> can meaningfully be used as phrased. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < >> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate >> change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained >> therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it >> directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. >> >> >> >> Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone >> >> >> >> ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- >> >> In isolation, the sentence >> >> >> >> 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' >> >> >> >> is like the sentence >> >> >> >> 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' >> >> >> >> The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically >> doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in >> general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property >> specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures >> - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit >> literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit >> language. >> >> >> >> In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit >> literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to >> reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit >> (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, >> either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit >> language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> >> >> I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: >> >> ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >> companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot >> help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and >> literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries >> and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily >> without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that >> furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary >> basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the >> thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with >> climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? >> [emphasis mine] >> >> Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change >> and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other >> literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind >> in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even >> Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David >> Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate >> change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human >> and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. >> >> Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 >> *To:* Camillo Formigatti >> *Cc:* Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit >> can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can >> tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> >> Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, >> Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I >> misunderstood something? >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 >> *To:* Antonia Ruppel >> *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; >> Jonathan Silk ; Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. >> >> >> >> We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched >> words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. >> >> >> >> You articulated it better than I would have. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel >> wrote: >> >> Dear Camillo, dear all, >> >> >> >> What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of >> definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The >> author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had >> a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; >> as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* >> contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change >> debate. >> >> >> >> What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately >> and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for >> companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that >> leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging >> to the environment. >> >> >> >> Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, >> and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, >> present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful >> thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. >> There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the >> kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, >> knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature >> can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects >> of our modern lives. >> >> >> >> So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us >> tackle climate change. >> >> >> >> But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the >> thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in >> the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which >> those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us >> deal with climate change (among other things). >> >> >> >> So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need >> to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then >> they'll stop cutting our funding. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, >> >> >> >> I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide >> whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. >> >> >> >> What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for >> the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind >> and many other living beings. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Cammillo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi >> *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 >> *To:* Jonathan Silk >> *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change >> >> >> >> > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it >> because German Indology has been good Indology. >> >> >> >> -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no >> anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement >> German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement >> but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the >> same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective >> countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. >> >> >> >> Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own >> individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational >> institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current >> belonging etc. is unnecessary. >> >> >> >> Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a >> renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the >> reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? >> ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to >> that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in >> reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family >> people with mundane interests. >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> >> >> >> Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding >> of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to >> distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s >> Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and >> 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my >> level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to >> their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that >> the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th >> centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. >> >> >> >> Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors >> in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a >> poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions >> etc. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or >> old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. >> >> >> >> But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this >> straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of >> swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian >> nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian >> nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word >> German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of >> Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of >> 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in >> tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political >> discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least >> give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad >> because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be >> bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the >> unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any >> reasonable understanding. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its >> connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri >> and Bagchee. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or >> what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that >> misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done >> particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, >> India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect >> for that subject matter. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk >> wrote: >> >> I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain >> viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there >> are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my >> position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; >> it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to >> introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology >> (Skt, Tamil, etc). >> >> I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I >> would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an >> entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please >> let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: >> this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the >> MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just >> because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem >> attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. >> "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, >> although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should >> acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is >> absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, >> although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research >> of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his >> prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the >> land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my >> stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, >> stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace >> in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] >> (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) >> >> Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person >> to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" >> Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one >> approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is >> not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the >> wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published >> as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. >> >> >> >> Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as >> they may be, >> >> >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> >> re JOYDEEP >> >> >> >> As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr >> joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then >> I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am >> German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. >> Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj >> are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they >> read Joydeep's papers? >> >> >> >> Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get >> back in touch with the rest of us. >> >> >> >> best wishes, >> >> >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr Antonia Ruppel >> www.cambridge-sanskrit.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ... >> >> [Message clipped] > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:11:03 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:11:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:11:35 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:41:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scientification in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the other side, there have been critical assessments of the following type too: http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0471.pdf On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:47 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: > This article by Scott Lowe > > looks at TM and the issues of vedic science and science. Another > fascinating example that seems to offer a confluence of Nagaraj's parallel > streams is the FVI, and their aspiration to re-establish a Vedic India. > This page > has some of their videos > that introduce the TM concepts. Typical of TM, their research > is exceptionally > pseudosciency. One of the speakers was no other than Ramdev swami, > who claims that the goal is > to first create a Vedic (Hindu) nation then Vedic world. It would seem > that, like the Sangh's pivot to using Upadhaya's Integral Humanism > instead > of the more controversial, Hindutva, the rhetorical pivot to Vedic also > serves to obfuscate this theo-political aspiration. One of the key members > of the AVI is John Hagelin, who used to work at CERN (the physics lab), but > was too controversial. So controversial in fact that CERN wrote an open > letter to him asking him to stop mentioning his former association with > them. But not too controversial to be awarded the Ig Nobel Prize > . The following is an > excerpt from an article currently under review in which I discuss, in part, > Hagelin's views: > > As Eriksen explains, 97 through the commodification of local products > into distant imaginary *-scapes*, many concepts borrowed from science > become theoretically dis-embedded through their use in popular mediums; > which promotes ?representational incorrectness?. This is evidenced in a > series of lectures facilitated by the Vedic India Foundation,98 which > present an idea of quantum physics with a new-age interpretation of Vedic > cosmology that ultimately serves to create a Vedic India and world through > combining it with string theory.99 However, Woit100 argues strongly > against this position, ?Virtually every theoretical physicist in the world > rejects all of this as nonsense and the work of a crackpot?. Ultimately, > promoters of ?Vedic Science? aim to legitimise a Hindu nationalist > worldview.10 > > > 97 Eriksen T.H., *Globalization: The key concepts, *Bloomsbury, New York, > 2014. > > 98 Vedic India Foundation, International Conference to Re-establish Vedic > India, *http://* > > *www.vedicindiafoundation.org/ *(accessed > 14.072015). > > 99 Scientific Basis for Vedic India, Dr. John Hagelin: Veda and Physics: > The Science and Technology of the > > Unified Field, *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u3f7_p1i8c&t=22s > *(accessed > 09.07.2018). > > 100 Woit Peter, *Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the > Continuing *Challenge to Unify the > > Laws of Physics, Jonathan Cape, London, 2006, pp 209-210. > > 101 Nanda, 2003, p. 95. > > > Some 20 years ago, I was deeply enamored by NC Panda's books that seek to > combine advaita darshanas > with > quantam theory. I had the good fortune of staying with him in his home in > Bhubaneswar. I fondly remember a discussion around scalar waves and > samadhi. This collaboration by Deepak Chopra and physicist Leonard > Mlodinow is also quite interesting. While they don't agree on many things, > it's an interesting project. > > All the best, > > ????? ??????? > Patrick McCartney, PhD > JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto > University, Japan > Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, > Japan > Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian > National University > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +81-80-9811-3235 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > > Yogascapes in Japan > > Academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > Modern Yoga Research > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Thanks, Prof. Dominik Wujastyk for bringing origins of such ideas into >> discussion and mentioning Arya Samaj. That may indicate that you are aware >> of the origin of such ideas in Arya Samaj. Whether you are aware or not, >> Swami Dayananda Saraswati , the founder of Arya Samaj, in his Rigvedadi >> Bhaashya Bhumikaa tries to show 'sciences' such as Astronomy, political >> thought etc. in the Vedas. >> >> When you trace the origins of ideas such as ' all science is rooted in >> India.' to such 19th century ideas as those of the founder of Arya >> Samaj, you can see those ideas to be the extreme opposite ideas to the view >> of Indians as savage, barbarian, ignorant lot without any rational >> thinking, full of superstitions etc. Those ideas were a reaction to the >> humiliation of a colonised nation by the coloniser community. This >> article is one of >> many historical studies of such humiliating attitude of the intellectuals >> from the community of the British people who colonised India. "No science, >> no rational / logical thinking" was responded with claims ranging from "no >> dearth for logical thinking, 'sciences etc.' " up to the claims of all >> 'sciences'. India-humiliating colonial historiography was responded to by >> India- praising nationalist historiography. Though most of the nationalist >> historiographers were rigorous in their methodology and were careful enough >> not to make unjustifiable claims, as it always happens, particularly in the >> emotional conditions such as the Indian national movement, the tracing of >> ancient India's advancements in various knowledge areas lead to the popular >> exaggerations such as ' all science is rooted in India.' . The two >> models of knowledge development, both extremes exaggerations, one of >> "Paradise Lost" and the other of linear evolutionist strand for which all >> older knowledge has to be inferior to the newer one by definition, have >> been running parallel to each other, opposing each other, swinging the >> pendulum to their own extremes. The claims such as ' , of the all >> science is rooted in India.' of the "Paradise Lost" school of thought >> very quickly exploited by the linear evolutionist strand for >> discounting the well founded claims of advanced knowledge in India in >> certain knowledge areas. >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Axel, >>> >>> Madhusudana Ojha >>> >>> (1866-1939) was an important early-twentieth century voice in popularizing >>> this view. He published a lot of material, like *Indravijaya*, some of >>> which still circulates I believe. I once visited his former home in >>> Jaipur, and many of his unpublished papers and diagrams were still there, >>> and the family was keeping alive a devotion to his cosmic visions and >>> scientist message. One of Ojha's students was Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal >>> ??str? (1908-1960) who continued to publish in the same vein, as do >>> others >>> . >>> >>> Some notes from my visit in 2011: >>> >>> *Manvashram *(map ) >>> Shree Krishna Sharma, Gopalpura Mode, Tonk Road, Jaipur. >>> A little , quiet, grassy enclosed courtyard with a grazing cow. Various >>> buildings around, labelled "university," printing press," etc., as if it >>> were a small campus. And a rusting 1903 English printing press at the >>> front. >>> Not a single Sanskrit MS, though. The story of the place is quite >>> interesting, nevertheless. *Vedav?caspati Pa??it Motilal ??str?* >>> (1908-1960) was the spirit of the place, and the father of the present >>> occupant. Motilal wrote 80,000 pages of materials on the interpretation of >>> the Veda and on the ?atapathabr?hma?a. He discovered a special code or >>> cypher that explained everything. He also developed a series of coloured >>> geometrical drawings that showed a kind of evolutionary and hierarchical >>> cosmology. It turns out that his teacher was *Madhusudana Ojha* >>> (1866-1939), which explains all the pseudo-science and back-to-the-vedas >>> ideology (independent of the Arya Samaj, as far as I know). >>> Motilal ??str?'s father Balendu (I think) had the first printing press >>> in Jaipur. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> >>> -- >>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >>> >>> , >>> >>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >>> , >>> >>> Department of History and Classics >>> >>> , >>> University of Alberta, Canada >>> . >>> >>> South Asia at the U of A: >>> >>> sas.ualberta.ca >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 01:33, Michaels, Axel via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In the course of the recent WSC discussions on this list, Dr Iris Iran >>>> Farkhondeh recently mentioned a little brochure by the RSS: ?There was also >>>> this little booklet produced by the RSS (samskrit samsthan and not svayam >>>> sevak even though it seems now that the two RSS are getting nearer and >>>> nearer) with a mention of astrolomy (sic) and all the other sciences that >>>> for sure originated in ancient India.? Unfortunately, she did not keep this >>>> booklet. Since I am co-editing a book on this topic, I would be very >>>> grateful if someone who attended the conference could share the brochure >>>> with me. I would also be interested in relevant and serious literature >>>> focusing and the wide-spread claim that all science is rooted in India. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Axel Michaels >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels >>>> >>>> Seniorprofessor | Vice President Heidelberg Academy of Science and >>>> Humanities | >>>> >>>> Director Research Unit "Historical Documents of Nepal" (??????? ?????- >>>> ?????? ????? ???????), Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities >>>> >>>> South Asia Institute >>>> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 >>>> >>>> 69120 Heidelberg, Germany >>>> >>>> http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/ >>>> forschungsstellen/nepal/index.de.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:12:25 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:12:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, Sure, this is your opinion, that it is more than enough. But still, you haven?t answered the question with a simple yes or no. I wonder why is that. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 11:09 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change alam ativistarENa ityEva mEpi matih On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:12:24 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:42:24 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't care for this. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the > question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 11:08 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' > conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the > reported part. > > > > Thus in > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. > > That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by > > > > Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle > climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than > the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, > now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate > change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? > > > > It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the > rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:57 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: > > > > " > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > " > > > > This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us > tackle climate change. " > > > > The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " > > > > does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > What about this? > > > > ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as > mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. > > > > I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > is like the sentence > > > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > ... > > [Message clipped] > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:13:48 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:13:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: P.S. By the way, can Sanskrit make climate change worse? I would just like to point out that "Sanskrit" can make climate change much, much worse. What do the Vedas pray for? Cattle. Cows emit methane. ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:14:30 2018 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 12:14:30 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Waste of energy and resourses aggravates climate change, and may even affect the intellectual climate on this list. Would the two remaining participants of the topic mind clarifying their respective positions privately? Thank you in advance for considering my proposal. Best wishes, Philipp Maas __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Mi., 12. Sep. 2018 um 12:13 Uhr schrieb Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Sure, this is your opinion, that it is more than enough. But still, you > haven?t answered the question with a simple yes or no. I wonder why is that. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 11:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > alam ativistarENa ityEva mEpi matih > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' > conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the > reported part. > > > > Thus in > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. > > That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by > > Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle > climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than > the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, > now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate > change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? > > > > It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the > rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:57 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: > > > > " > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > " > > > > This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us > tackle climate change. " > > > > The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " > > > > does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > What about this? > > > > ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as > mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. > > > > I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > > > Here: > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > > > Here: > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > is like the sentence > > > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:14:48 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:14:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, basically now you are saying that you don?t care for climate change? Or that you spent so much effort and time in a useless discussion? I don?t feel that way, I was asking serious questions. ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi Sent: 12 September 2018 11:12 To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Antonia Ruppel ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change I don't care for this. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:15:38 2018 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:15:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Surely Nagaraj has made it quite clear that, whatever the precise wording of his sentence, he did not intend to affirm that Sanskrit can tackle climate change. I think he has also made it clear that he does not wish to affirm categorically that Sanskrit (whatever we might mean here by Sanskrit) cannot assist in tackling climate change. That seems to me a perfectly reasonable position. I don?t see what purpose is served by trying to insist that his words mean something other than what he clearly intends. It?s not a particularly edifying or constructive spectacle. I think too that we should avoid assuming that all Indian scholars who criticise Western presuppositions are mindless adherents of RSS or Hindutva propaganda. The situation is more complicated and more nuanced both in India and in Western academia. Can we not be a little more respectful of each other, even when we disagree? Geoffrey Samuel On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:12, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY > wrote: I don't care for this. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 10:15:50 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 15:45:50 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Readers are witness to where it is going. Prudent on my part to move out. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > P.S. By the way, can Sanskrit make climate change worse? I would just > like to point out that "Sanskrit" can make climate change much, much worse. > What do the Vedas pray for? Cattle. Cows emit methane. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 11:08 > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' > conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the > reported part. > > > > Thus in > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. > > That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by > > > > Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle > climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than > the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, > now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate > change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? > > > > It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the > rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:57 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: > > > > " > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > " > > > > This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us > tackle climate change. " > > > > The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " > > > > does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > What about this? > > > > ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 > > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as > mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. > > > > I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > > In isolation, the sentence > > > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > > > is like the sentence > > > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > > Best wishes, > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Regards, > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > > > All the best, > > Antonia > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Cammillo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > > > best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > > -- > > Nagaraj Paturi > > > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where y > > ... > > [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed Sep 12 10:01:39 2018 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:01:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: alam ativistareNa! Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 4:57 AM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 10:37:30 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 10:37:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Samuel, I asked repeatedly a simple question and I did not get a clear answer. The thread is there as a witness. I do not assume anything about Indian scholars and my impression from your reply is that you assume a lot about Western scholars. Nagaraj could have answered immediately by simply saying that he agrees with me, instead he produced a long series of e-mail defending Sanskrit literature, including the one with statements about the toxicity of Sanskrit which had nothing to do with the thread, but instead moved once again the topic of the thread towards the assumptions that all Western scholars are biased against Sanskrit. I am not, I assure you, and you can see it from my answers. Now, I do not see why you are not presupposing the same about Nagaraj, that he is biased against Western scholars. It doesn?t seem fair to me that you only presuppose that I am biased only because I am a Westerner. This is what you are all thinking about, really, and not climate change. At the beginning of the thread I really asked a serious question and Dr Ruppel gave a serious answer, which was basically no, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change. I can understand that you are all weary of this thread, and so am I. I did not want to sound disrespectful, I really asked a simple question to which I received plenty of nuanced answers, but no clear-cut answer. I am sure that none of us, including Nagaraj, thinks that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, but for some mysterious reason I am the only one saying it clearly. Moreover, it was not the initiator of the thread to use the phrase, but it is the title of this article: http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html Apparently, it is the Indian PM Narendra Modi who is stating it. Therefore, please do put the whole discussion in perspective, it is not a nominalistic discussion, it is a politically important discussion, if the PM of a great democratic country such as India goes on the record saying that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, because it cannot. I am really very worried about climate change and in no moment of the discussion I wanted to disrespect Nagaraj, which is clear from the tone of my messages. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Geoffrey Samuel Sent: 12 September 2018 11:16 To: Nagaraj Paturi ; Camillo Formigatti ; INDOLOGY (e-mail list) Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Surely Nagaraj has made it quite clear that, whatever the precise wording of his sentence, he did not intend to affirm that Sanskrit can tackle climate change. I think he has also made it clear that he does not wish to affirm categorically that Sanskrit (whatever we might mean here by Sanskrit) cannot assist in tackling climate change. That seems to me a perfectly reasonable position. I don?t see what purpose is served by trying to insist that his words mean something other than what he clearly intends. It?s not a particularly edifying or constructive spectacle. I think too that we should avoid assuming that all Indian scholars who criticise Western presuppositions are mindless adherents of RSS or Hindutva propaganda. The situation is more complicated and more nuanced both in India and in Western academia. Can we not be a little more respectful of each other, even when we disagree? Geoffrey Samuel On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:12, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY > wrote: I don't care for this. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Sep 12 11:04:22 2018 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 11:04:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Camillo I am well aware that this thread began with the report of Narendra Modi?s remarks, and that the apparent ignorance (or wilful denial) of world leaders in relation to climate change is an appalling problem. Not only in India, of course; my own country (Australia)?s political leadership is hardly helping, not to mention the situation in the USA. I certainly don?t see anything in Modi?s reported remarks that is likely to help. I don?t wish to prolong the thread unnecessarily, so can I just say that I did not intend to impute motives or assumptions to anyone, and I am happy to accept Camillo's statement that he did not intend any disrespect to Nagaraj. Regards to all Geoffrey On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:37, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Samuel, I asked repeatedly a simple question and I did not get a clear answer. The thread is there as a witness. I do not assume anything about Indian scholars and my impression from your reply is that you assume a lot about Western scholars. Nagaraj could have answered immediately by simply saying that he agrees with me, instead he produced a long series of e-mail defending Sanskrit literature, including the one with statements about the toxicity of Sanskrit which had nothing to do with the thread, but instead moved once again the topic of the thread towards the assumptions that all Western scholars are biased against Sanskrit. I am not, I assure you, and you can see it from my answers. Now, I do not see why you are not presupposing the same about Nagaraj, that he is biased against Western scholars. It doesn?t seem fair to me that you only presuppose that I am biased only because I am a Westerner. This is what you are all thinking about, really, and not climate change. At the beginning of the thread I really asked a serious question and Dr Ruppel gave a serious answer, which was basically no, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change. I can understand that you are all weary of this thread, and so am I. I did not want to sound disrespectful, I really asked a simple question to which I received plenty of nuanced answers, but no clear-cut answer. I am sure that none of us, including Nagaraj, thinks that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, but for some mysterious reason I am the only one saying it clearly. Moreover, it was not the initiator of the thread to use the phrase, but it is the title of this article: http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html Apparently, it is the Indian PM Narendra Modi who is stating it. Therefore, please do put the whole discussion in perspective, it is not a nominalistic discussion, it is a politically important discussion, if the PM of a great democratic country such as India goes on the record saying that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, because it cannot. I am really very worried about climate change and in no moment of the discussion I wanted to disrespect Nagaraj, which is clear from the tone of my messages. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Geoffrey Samuel > Sent: 12 September 2018 11:16 To: Nagaraj Paturi >; Camillo Formigatti >; INDOLOGY (e-mail list) > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Surely Nagaraj has made it quite clear that, whatever the precise wording of his sentence, he did not intend to affirm that Sanskrit can tackle climate change. I think he has also made it clear that he does not wish to affirm categorically that Sanskrit (whatever we might mean here by Sanskrit) cannot assist in tackling climate change. That seems to me a perfectly reasonable position. I don?t see what purpose is served by trying to insist that his words mean something other than what he clearly intends. It?s not a particularly edifying or constructive spectacle. I think too that we should avoid assuming that all Indian scholars who criticise Western presuppositions are mindless adherents of RSS or Hindutva propaganda. The situation is more complicated and more nuanced both in India and in Western academia. Can we not be a little more respectful of each other, even when we disagree? Geoffrey Samuel On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:12, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY > wrote: I don't care for this. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part. Thus in Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: " Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. " This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: What about this? ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles. So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Antonia Ruppel >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read. Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. Best wishes, Camillo Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic. Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change. After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here. I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread. When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same. This book and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic. I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, > Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful. To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' can meaningfully be used as phrased. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- In isolation, the sentence 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' is like the sentence 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language. In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. All the best, Antonia On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj, I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 To: Antonia Ruppel > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. You articulated it better than I would have. Thanks, Regards, On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: Dear Camillo, dear all, What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. All the best, Antonia On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. Best wishes, Cammillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. ----------------------------- Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. --------------------------------- Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. ------------------------------ Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. ------------------------------- I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: re JOYDEEP As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. best wishes, George Thompson -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Dr Antonia Ruppel www.cambridge-sanskrit.org -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) ... [Message clipped] -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 11:26:07 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 16:56:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/full-text-of-pm-narendra-modis-47th-mann-ki-baat-5325454/ On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Geoffrey Samuel wrote: > Dear Camillo > > I am well aware that this thread began with the report of Narendra Modi?s > remarks, and that the apparent ignorance (or wilful denial) of world > leaders in relation to climate change is an appalling problem. Not only in > India, of course; my own country (Australia)?s political leadership is > hardly helping, not to mention the situation in the USA. I certainly don?t > see anything in Modi?s reported remarks that is likely to help. > > I don?t wish to prolong the thread unnecessarily, so can I just say that I > did not intend to impute motives or assumptions to anyone, and I am happy > to accept Camillo's statement that he did not intend any disrespect to > Nagaraj. > > Regards to all > > Geoffrey > > > On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:37, Camillo Formigatti ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Samuel, > > I asked repeatedly a simple question and I did not get a clear answer. The > thread is there as a witness. I do not assume anything about Indian > scholars and my impression from your reply is that you assume a lot about > Western scholars. Nagaraj could have answered immediately by simply saying > that he agrees with me, instead he produced a long series of e-mail > defending Sanskrit literature, including the one with statements about the > toxicity of Sanskrit which had nothing to do with the thread, but instead > moved once again the topic of the thread towards the assumptions that all > Western scholars are biased against Sanskrit. I am not, I assure you, and > you can see it from my answers. > > Now, I do not see why you are not presupposing the same about Nagaraj, > that he is biased against Western scholars. It doesn?t seem fair to me that > you only presuppose that I am biased only because I am a Westerner. This is > what you are all thinking about, really, and not climate change. At the > beginning of the thread I really asked a serious question and Dr Ruppel > gave a serious answer, which was basically no, Sanskrit cannot tackle > climate change. I can understand that you are all weary of this thread, and > so am I. I did not want to sound disrespectful, I really asked a simple > question to which I received plenty of nuanced answers, but no clear-cut > answer. I am sure that none of us, including Nagaraj, thinks that Sanskrit > can tackle climate change, but for some mysterious reason I am the only one > saying it clearly. Moreover, it was not the initiator of the thread to use > the phrase, but it is the title of this article: > > http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle- > climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html > > Apparently, it is the Indian PM Narendra Modi who is stating it. > Therefore, please do put the whole discussion in perspective, it is not a > nominalistic discussion, it is a politically important discussion, if the > PM of a great democratic country such as India goes on the record saying > that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, because it cannot. I am really > very worried about climate change and in no moment of the discussion I > wanted to disrespect Nagaraj, which is clear from the tone of my messages. > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Geoffrey Samuel > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 11:16 > *To:* Nagaraj Paturi ; Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>; INDOLOGY (e-mail list) < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > Surely Nagaraj has made it quite clear that, whatever the precise wording > of his sentence, he did not intend to affirm that Sanskrit can tackle > climate change. > > I think he has also made it clear that he does not wish to affirm > categorically that Sanskrit (whatever we might mean here by Sanskrit) > cannot assist in tackling climate change. That seems to me a perfectly > reasonable position. > > I don?t see what purpose is served by trying to insist that his words mean > something other than what he clearly intends. It?s not a particularly > edifying or constructive spectacle. > > I think too that we should avoid assuming that all Indian scholars who > criticise Western presuppositions are mindless adherents of RSS or Hindutva > propaganda. The situation is more complicated and more nuanced both in > India and in Western academia. Can we not be a little more respectful of > each other, even when we disagree? > > Geoffrey Samuel > > > > > On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:12, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> wrote: > > I don't care for this. > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > As I said, I don?t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the > question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no? > > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 11:08 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' > conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the > reported part. > > Thus in > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part. > > That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by > > > > Dr Ruppel's > > > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Sure, but she wrote that ?texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle > climate change?, not you. You wrote ?In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change?, which you already agreed that it?s different than > the sentence ?Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change?. So, > now I?m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate > change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change? > > It?s a simple question to which I?m asking you for a simple answer, the > rest doesn?t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:57 > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this: > > " > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > > tackle climate change. > > " > > This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's > > " So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us > tackle climate change. " > > The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" " > > does not imply that I made a statement " Sky is not blue" > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > What about this? > > ?In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:49 > > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as > mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me. > > I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" . > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > ?Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?? > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142992.html > > ?Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?? > > Same message as above, from which I quote you: ?In that sense, Sanskrit > can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.? > > ?Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?? > > Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2018-September/142995.html > > By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance > to academic titles. > > So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate > change? > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 12 September 2018 10:09 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Antonia Ruppel ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong? > > Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change? > > Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change? > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel > provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I > understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you > replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature > can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The > thread is there for everyone to be read. > > Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is > your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, > no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether > Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. > Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world. > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any > language is not toxic. > > Yes, I am equally worried about climate change. > > Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change. > > Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it > can not tackle climate change. > > After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' > attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific > book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian > attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " > Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards > traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at > the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key > to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity > from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the > uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit > articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is > the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very > clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. > as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of > ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But > this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient > Egypt if there are any. Since discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of > the list, we are doing it here. > > I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change > anywhere in the thread. > > When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the > thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would > have said the same. > > This book > and > Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher > discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I > don't think any language can be toxic. > > I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle > climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate > change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, > and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" > cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit > cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now. > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > ---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ---- > > > That was the phrasing by the thread initiator. > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it. > > It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as > "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be. > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, > > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) > can *help* tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change > ni which a larger perspective is useful. > > To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial > mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make > this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > can meaningfully be used as phrased. > > All the best, > Antonia > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti < > camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Still, Sanskrit can only *help* tackle, and not directly tackle climate > change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained > therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it > directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong. > > Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone > > > > ---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ---- > In isolation, the sentence > > 'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' > > is like the sentence > > 'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics' > > The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically > doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in > general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property > specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures > - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit > language. > > In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit > literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to > reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit > (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, > either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit > language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have. > > All the best, > Antonia > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj, > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. [?] *Sanskrit - the language - cannot > help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and > literary cultures all over the world,* present us with us with centuries > and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily > without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that > furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary > basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the > thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with > climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? > [emphasis mine] > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and > some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other > literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind > in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even > Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David > Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate > change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human > and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 11 September 2018 17:23 > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit > can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can > tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, > Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I > misunderstood something? > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 19:09 > *To:* Antonia Ruppel > *Cc:* Camillo Formigatti ; Jonathan > Silk ; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched > words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > Thanks, > > Regards, > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of > definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The > author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had > a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; > as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* > contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change > debate. > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately > and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for > companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that > leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging > to the environment. > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, > and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, > present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful > thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. > There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the > kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, > knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature > can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects > of our modern lives. > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle > climate change. > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the > thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in > the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which > those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us > deal with climate change (among other things). > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need > to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then > they'll stop cutting our funding. > > All the best, > Antonia > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide > whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for > the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind > and many other living beings. > > Best wishes, > > Cammillo > > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > *From:* Nagaraj Paturi > *Sent:* 10 September 2018 12:04 > *To:* Jonathan Silk > *Cc:* George Thompson ; Indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it > because German Indology has been good Indology. > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no > anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement > German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement > but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the > same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective > countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own > individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational > institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current > belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a > renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference > frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? are > not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In > Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such > usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane > interests. > > ----------------------------- > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding > of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to > distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s > Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and > 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my > level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to > their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that > the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th > centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors > in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a > poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions > etc. > > --------------------------------- > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or > old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this > straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of > swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian > nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian > nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word > German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of > Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of > 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in > tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political > discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least > give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad > because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be > bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the > unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any > reasonable understanding. > > ------------------------------ > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its > connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri > and Bagchee. > > ------------------------------- > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or > what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that > misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done > particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, > India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect > for that subject matter. > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain > viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there > are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my > position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; > it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to > introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology > (Skt, Tamil, etc). > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I > would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an > entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please > let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: > this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the > MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just > because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem > attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. > "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, > although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should > acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is > absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, > although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research > of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his > prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the > land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my > stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, > stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace > in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] > (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person > to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" > Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one > approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is > not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the > wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published > as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as > they may be, > > Jonathan > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > re JOYDEEP > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr > joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then > I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am > German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj > are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they > read Joydeep's papers? > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get > back in touch with the rest of us. > > best wishes, > > > George Thompson > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 > , > Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > ... > > [Message clipped] > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:14:27 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 14:14:27 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gc2hhIGFuZCBraGE=?= In-Reply-To: <5b989b52.1c69fb81.ddafe.2ff4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically motivated fusion? Curious, Jonathan Silk On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues > Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the > meaning > daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. > Girish K.Jha > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jhakgirish > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) > To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com > Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha > > Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah > khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined > with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. > But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it > is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our > Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha > but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili > Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I > would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a > Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have > the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. > Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India > 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy > smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian < > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: > BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: > {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, > 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly > this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My > grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? > ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in > Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, > 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? > ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are > subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:40:23 2018 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 13:40:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in various journals in the 1970s-1990s. Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM To: jhakgirish Cc: bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha Dear Colleagues, I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically motivated fusion? Curious, Jonathan Silk On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaning daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. Girish K.Jha Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message -------- From: jhakgirish > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) To: Indology >, bvparishat at googlegroups.com Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian > Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT > Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi > wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Wed Sep 12 13:54:05 2018 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 13:54:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5E160D9C-A1C1-40AC-8037-2577E94C292B@austin.utexas.edu> I have not looked at Michael?s material, but this phenomenon is widespread even in classical Sanskrit and Prakrits. Perhaps it had to do with regional pronunciations. The word that comes to mind is ?p??a??a? with no obvious Indo-European etymology (see the forthcoming paper by Joel Brereton in my edited volume on the G?hastha). It has several variants: earliest in A?oka is p?sa??a (with variants in different locations), and in Sanskrit generally p??a??a, and often also p?kha??a. In Jain Prakrit also the form p?sattha. I find both p?kha??a and p??a??a forms in manuscripts in various scripts. Patrick On Sep 12, 2018, at 8:40 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > wrote: There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in various journals in the 1970s-1990s. Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM To: jhakgirish Cc: bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha Dear Colleagues, I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically motivated fusion? Curious, Jonathan Silk On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaning daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. Girish K.Jha Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message -------- From: jhakgirish > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) To: Indology >, bvparishat at googlegroups.com Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian > Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT > Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi > wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at tending.to Wed Sep 12 13:57:18 2018 From: will at tending.to (Will Tuladhar Douglas) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 19:57:18 +0600 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gc2hhIGFuZCBraGE=?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan, It's a phonological feature that is characteristic, I think, of a specific group of MIA/NIA and nearby languages. Hence, for example, both the modern Nepali name Harkha (<--Har?a) and the modern Newar pronunciation and occasional orthography of the ?khe?ak?ar?? (= ?a?ak?ar?). Newars would have been speaking about these texts in Newari, of course, but using pronunciations that made sense in a linguistic and cultural milieu that connects them to Bengali, Maithili and so on. There is a paper by Brinkhaus that may examine some of this, but I've never been able to put my hands on a copy. Would anyone happen to have a copy? Brinkhaus, Horst. 2003. "On the Transisiton from Bengali to Maithili in Nepalese Dramas of the 16th and 17th Centuries." In Maithili Studies: Papers Presented at the Stockholm Conference on Maithili Language and Literature, pp. 67-77. Be well, ?WBTD. - - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- Will Tuladhar Douglas Email: will at tending.to Blog: Tending to blether Asian Philosophies and Comparative Religion, Asian University for Women > On 12 Sep, 2018, at 18:14, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically motivated fusion? > > Curious, Jonathan Silk > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear colleagues > Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaning > daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. > Girish K.Jha > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jhakgirish > > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) > To: Indology >, bvparishat at googlegroups.com > Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha > > Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian > Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT > Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi > wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Sep 12 14:35:32 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 07:35:32 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, As Professor Girish Jha described, the change of ?a to kha, except in conjuncts with ?a-varga [?: ?????????], is prescribed by the Pr?ti??khya of the ?ukla-Yajurveda and seen in the recitation of this Veda till today. This also results in variation like p??a??a/p?kha??a. Certainly, a wide-spread dialectal feature. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:41 AM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael > Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in > various journals in the 1970s-1990s. > > > Arlo Griffiths > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM > *To:* jhakgirish > *Cc:* bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha > > Dear Colleagues, > > I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having > learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a > "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they > were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's > lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and > Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a > "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically > motivated fusion? > > Curious, Jonathan Silk > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear colleagues > Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the > meaning > daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. > Girish K.Jha > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jhakgirish > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) > To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com > Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha > > Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah > khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined > with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. > But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it > is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our > Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha > but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili > Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I > would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a > Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have > the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. > Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India > 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy > smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian < > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: > BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: > {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, > 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly > this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My > grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? > ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in > Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, > 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? > ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are > subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 18:09:52 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 18 20:09:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Telegu (Telugu) script Message-ID: Dear Colleagues I wonder whether a kind soul would be able and willing to help me. I have a text I am editing, most of the MSS of which are in n?gar? (or something like it), one in Tilagari, and one in Telegu. The Tilagari MS has been deciphered (not by me) but the Telegu... well, let's just say that my optimism that with a script table I could make something of it (since I already know what the text says!) was hyper-over-optimistic. Therefore, I wonder if anyone familiar with the script already would be willing to contact me off list; I could send you both the text (edited) and the photos, which are extremely high quality, and... well, if it works out that would be wonderful. It's very short, 27 ?ry? verses (probably + ma?gala and a colophon). Very best thanks in advance, jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 02:18:45 2018 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 11:18:45 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan and colleagues, Concerning* kh* / *?*, cf. Weber, *?ber ein zum Weissen Yajus geh?riges phonetisches Compendium, das Pratijn?s?tra* 1872: 84~85; Pischel ? 265; Oertel, *The Syntax of Cases in the Narrative and Descriptive Prose of the Br?hma?as*, I. *The Disjunct Use of Cases *1926: 56, ? 29, ex. 6; AiGr I, p. 136-137, Nachtr?ge p. 75; *Vedic Variants* II ? 295; Renou, Gr, p. 4; Allen, *Phonetics in Ancient India *1953: 56; Bloch/Master p. 73; Handurukande 1967: xiii; Kuiper, *Gop?lakelicandrik?* 1987: 152~154 ( ?the old North indian tradition? ?a common interchange arising from R?jasth?n? speech?); BHSD, p. 532, *?e?ita* (f?r *?ekhita*); Masato Kobayashi, *Historical Phonology of Old Indo-Aryan Consonants*, 2004: 60 (?/s./ and /kh/ are often confused in some manuscripts and in later Indo-Aryan languages?); cf. also *A Dictinaray of Old Marathi* (abbr. DOM) dokha < Skt. do?a; vi?aya: DOM:/cf. vikhaya; a-nam?kha : DOM: ?without blinking, vigilantly" < animi?a; agha-markha?a /Skt. aghamar??a etc. etc. Seishi Karashima 2018-09-12 23:35 GMT+09:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear Jonathan, > > As Professor Girish Jha described, the change of ?a to kha, except in > conjuncts with ?a-varga [?: ?????????], is prescribed by the Pr?ti??khya of > the ?ukla-Yajurveda and seen in the recitation of this Veda till today. > This also results in variation like p??a??a/p?kha??a. Certainly, a > wide-spread dialectal feature. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:41 AM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> >> There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael >> Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in >> various journals in the 1970s-1990s. >> >> >> Arlo Griffiths >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM >> *To:* jhakgirish >> *Cc:* bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having >> learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a >> "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they >> were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's >> lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and >> Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a >> "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically >> motivated fusion? >> >> Curious, Jonathan Silk >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues >> Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the >> meaning >> daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. >> Girish K.Jha >> >> >> >> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: jhakgirish >> Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) >> To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com >> Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha >> >> Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah >> khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined >> with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. >> But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it >> is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our >> Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha >> but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili >> Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I >> would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a >> Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have >> the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. >> Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India >> 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy >> smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian < >> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: >> BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: >> {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, >> 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly >> this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My >> grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? >> ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in >> Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, >> 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? >> ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are >> subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 06:36:48 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 08:36:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My sincere thanks to all who helped me understand this phenomenon! Jonathan On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Jonathan and colleagues, > > > Concerning* kh* / *?*, cf. Weber, *?ber ein zum Weissen Yajus geh?riges > phonetisches Compendium, das Pratijn?s?tra* 1872: 84~85; Pischel ? 265; > Oertel, *The Syntax of Cases in the Narrative and Descriptive Prose of > the Br?hma?as*, I. *The Disjunct Use of Cases *1926: 56, ? 29, ex. 6; > AiGr I, p. 136-137, Nachtr?ge p. 75; *Vedic Variants* II ? 295; Renou, > Gr, p. 4; Allen, *Phonetics in Ancient India *1953: 56; Bloch/Master p. > 73; Handurukande 1967: xiii; Kuiper, *Gop?lakelicandrik?* 1987: 152~154 ( > ?the old North indian tradition? ?a common interchange arising from > R?jasth?n? speech?); BHSD, p. 532, *?e?ita* (f?r *?ekhita*); Masato > Kobayashi, *Historical Phonology of Old Indo-Aryan Consonants*, 2004: 60 > (?/s./ and /kh/ are often confused in some manuscripts and in later > Indo-Aryan languages?); cf. also *A Dictinaray of Old Marathi* (abbr. > DOM) dokha < Skt. do?a; vi?aya: DOM:/cf. vikhaya; a-nam?kha : DOM: > ?without blinking, vigilantly" < animi?a; agha-markha?a /Skt. aghamar??a > etc. etc. > > > Seishi Karashima > > > 2018-09-12 23:35 GMT+09:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> Dear Jonathan, >> >> As Professor Girish Jha described, the change of ?a to kha, except >> in conjuncts with ?a-varga [?: ?????????], is prescribed by the Pr?ti??khya >> of the ?ukla-Yajurveda and seen in the recitation of this Veda till today. >> This also results in variation like p??a??a/p?kha??a. Certainly, a >> wide-spread dialectal feature. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:41 AM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> >>> There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael >>> Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in >>> various journals in the 1970s-1990s. >>> >>> >>> Arlo Griffiths >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM >>> *To:* jhakgirish >>> *Cc:* bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having >>> learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a >>> "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they >>> were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's >>> lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and >>> Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a >>> "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically >>> motivated fusion? >>> >>> Curious, Jonathan Silk >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear colleagues >>> Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the >>> meaning >>> daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. >>> Girish K.Jha >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: jhakgirish >>> Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) >>> To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com >>> Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha >>> >>> Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." >>> shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except >>> combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is >>> pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost >>> all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to >>> mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only >>> pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha >>> and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of >>> the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European >>> period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit >>> "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish >>> K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India >>> 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy >>> smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian < >>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: >>> BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: >>> {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, >>> 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly >>> this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My >>> grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? >>> ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in >>> Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, >>> 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? >>> ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are >>> subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Thu Sep 13 08:02:42 2018 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 08:02:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Academic publishing Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Some may find this Guardian opinion piece by George Monbiot of interest, on the topic of academic publishing: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/scientific-publishing-rip-off-taxpayers-fund-research Simon Brodbeck Cardiff University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de Thu Sep 13 10:02:18 2018 From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 10:02:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #491 Message-ID: GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Texts added: Kunjarakarna Dharmakathana Slokantara Vratisasana Svagatasutra: transliteration and plain text Vidyasthanopamasutra: transliteration and plain text Texts revised: Ksemendra: Narmamala: preamble revised Vasubandhu: Trimsikavijnaptikarika, with Sthiramati's Trimsikavijnaptibhasya Isa-Upanisad: verse 8 revised Rastrapalasutra: transliteration and plain text Text refiled: Cumulative Pada-Index of metric Sanskrit portions of Javano-Balinese texts from Saiva (religious literature) to Excerpts from the Old Javanese section __________________________________________________________________________ GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Thu Sep 13 12:07:05 2018 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 14:07:05 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gc2hhIGFuZCBraGE=?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20180913140705.1f81f858560e2f8c59b2a99e@ff.cuni.cz> Here is the paper, but it does not discuss the problem of ?a/kha. Best, Lubomir On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 19:57:18 +0600 Will Tuladhar Douglas via INDOLOGY wrote: > Jonathan, > > It's a phonological feature that is characteristic, I think, of a specific group of MIA/NIA and nearby languages. Hence, for example, both the modern Nepali name Harkha (<--Har?a) and the modern Newar pronunciation and occasional orthography of the ?khe?ak?ar?? (= ?a?ak?ar?). Newars would have been speaking about these texts in Newari, of course, but using pronunciations that made sense in a linguistic and cultural milieu that connects them to Bengali, Maithili and so on. > > There is a paper by Brinkhaus that may examine some of this, but I've never been able to put my hands on a copy. Would anyone happen to have a copy? > > Brinkhaus, Horst. 2003. "On the Transisiton from Bengali to Maithili in Nepalese Dramas of the 16th and 17th Centuries." In Maithili Studies: Papers Presented at the Stockholm Conference on Maithili Language and Literature, pp. 67-77. > > Be well, > > ?WBTD. > - - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- > Will Tuladhar Douglas > Email: will at tending.to Blog: Tending to blether > Asian Philosophies and Comparative Religion, Asian University for Women > > > > > On 12 Sep, 2018, at 18:14, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically motivated fusion? > > > > Curious, Jonathan Silk > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > Dear colleagues > > Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaning > > daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. > > Girish K.Jha > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: jhakgirish > > > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) > > To: Indology >, bvparishat at googlegroups.com > > Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha > > > > Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian > Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT > Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi > wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Silk > > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BRINKHAUS2003OntheTransisitonfromBengalitoMaithiliinNepaleseDramasofthe16thand17thCenturies.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 673472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 12:32:59 2018 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 14:32:59 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Persian (?) seal on spurious Chola plates Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am presently studying a set of spurious Chola copper plates (in Tamil and Telugu) in the Chennai Government Museum from available descriptions and translations (no illustrations, unfortunately). Sources mention that the plates bear a Persian seal. In the catalogue of copper-plates of the Museum Srinivasa Ayyangar (1918, p. 15) writes: ?This and the subjoined eleven grants are more or less similar in character. Two of them are exactly alike, while the rest differ in minor details. These bear a seal at the top of the plates, in which is inscribed, in *Persian*, ?*R?h?lilla*? which means *dharma or charity* and another seal at the end of the inscription, in which is inscribed, in Telugu, ?yekk?l App?j??.? Could anybody kindly enlighten me on ?R?h?lilla?? Is it Persian? Arabic? Both? What does it mean precisely? Are other examples known? A subsidiary question concerns ?yekk?l App?j??? What does it mean? Note that Burgess & Na???a ??str? (1886, pp. 137ff.), who edited and translated some of these plates, record variant readings of ?Yekk?l App?j?? on some of the plates: ?Yek?l App?j??, ?Ekk?lu App?j??. There is also a Telugu seal reading ?Yajva App?j??. Burgess, J. & S.M. Na???a ??str? (1886). Tamil and Sanskrit Inscriptions with Notes on Village Antiquities Collected chiefly in the South of Madras Presidency by Jas. Burgess. With Translations by Na???a ??str?. Madras: Government Press (Archaeological Survey of Southern India; 4). Srinivasa Ayyangar, R. (1918). Catalogue of Copper-plate Grants in the Government Museum, Madras. Madras: Printed by the Superintendent, Government Press. With very best wishes. -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Thu Sep 13 12:36:51 2018 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 14:36:51 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <23f0b375cecf1c73d4329bc01777ee65@fabularasa.dk> Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It has been most helpful and much appreciated. For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch pointed me to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates pa?han?rtha as "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the context of a colophon to a Jaina manuscript. Best, Jacob Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: > I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda manuscripts > from the region of Gujarat. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY > wrote: > >> Dear Jacob, >> >> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with >> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. Scholars >> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted >> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both study >> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). >> >> Best, >> TWW >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear colleagues, >>> >>> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" and >> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina manuscripts >> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate that >> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, and >> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in >> colophons to indicate as much. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Jacob >>> >>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >>> PhD Fellow (Indology) >>> University of Copenhagen >>> Denmark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) From spezialef at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 13:08:26 2018 From: spezialef at yahoo.com (Fabrizio Speziale) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 13:08:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Persian (?) seal on spurious Chola plates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1180298433.4692468.1536844106816@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Emmanuel, For the Persian/Arabic expression, is not to say for certain without seeing the Persian seal.?? It is not certainly a single word but it seems a compound expression. If is meant to be a translation of dharma it could be "r?h il? All?h" i.e. the "way to Allah". This does not seem to me a conventional expression, especially the combination of the Persian r?h with the Arabic?il? All?h,?but it could be an acceptable translation for dharma. All the best, Fabrizio FabrizioSpezialeDirecteurd??tudes - Professor?coledes Hautes ?tudes en Sciences SocialesCenterfor South Asian Studies54Boulevard Raspail75006,Paris?? http://www.perso-indica.net/https://ehess.academia.edu/FabrizioSpeziale Il gioved? 13 settembre 2018, 14:33:11 CEST, Manu Francis via INDOLOGY ha scritto: Dear Colleagues, I am presently studying a set of spurious Chola copper plates (in Tamil and Telugu) in the Chennai Government Museum from available descriptions and translations (no illustrations, unfortunately). Sources mention that the plates bear a Persian seal. In the catalogue of copper-plates of the Museum Srinivasa Ayyangar (1918, p. 15) writes: ?This and the subjoined eleven grants are more or less similar in character. Two of them are exactly alike, while the rest differ in minor details. These bear a seal at the top of the plates, in which is inscribed, in Persian, ?R?h?lilla? which means dharma or charity and another seal at the end of the inscription, in which is inscribed, in Telugu, ?yekk?l App?j??.? Could anybody kindly enlighten me on ?R?h?lilla?? Is it Persian? Arabic? Both? What does it mean precisely? Are other examples known? A subsidiary question concerns ?yekk?l App?j??? What does it mean? Note that Burgess & Na???a ??str? (1886, pp. 137ff.), who edited and translated some of these plates, record variant readings of ?Yekk?l App?j?? on some of the plates: ?Yek?l App?j??, ?Ekk?lu App?j??. There is also a Telugu seal reading ?Yajva App?j??. Burgess, J. & S.M. Na???a ??str? (1886). Tamil and Sanskrit Inscriptions with Notes on Village Antiquities Collected chiefly in the South of Madras Presidency by Jas. Burgess. With Translations by Na???a ??str?. Madras: Government Press (Archaeological Survey of Southern India; 4). Srinivasa Ayyangar, R. (1918). Catalogue of Copper-plate Grants in the Government Museum, Madras. Madras: Printed by the Superintendent, Government Press. With very best wishes. -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spezialef at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 13:14:25 2018 From: spezialef at yahoo.com (Fabrizio Speziale) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 13:14:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: Persian (?) seal on spurious Chola plates In-Reply-To: <1180298433.4692468.1536844106816@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1234476380.4695582.1536844466042@mail.yahoo.com> sorry for the typo, "is not to say for certain ...?" FabrizioSpezialeDirecteurd??tudes - Professor?coledes Hautes ?tudes en Sciences SocialesCenterfor South Asian Studies54Boulevard Raspail75006,Paris?? http://www.perso-indica.net/https://ehess.academia.edu/FabrizioSpeziale ----- Messaggio inoltrato ----- Da: Fabrizio Speziale via INDOLOGY A: Manu Francis ; indology at list.indology.info Inviato: gioved? 13 settembre 2018, 15:09:33 CESTOggetto: Re: [INDOLOGY] Persian (?) seal on spurious Chola plates Dear Emmanuel, For the Persian/Arabic expression, is not to say for certain without seeing the Persian seal.?? It is not certainly a single word but it seems a compound expression. If is meant to be a translation of dharma it could be "r?h il? All?h" i.e. the "way to Allah". This does not seem to me a conventional expression, especially the combination of the Persian r?h with the Arabic?il? All?h,?but it could be an acceptable translation for dharma. All the best, Fabrizio FabrizioSpezialeDirecteurd??tudes - Professor?coledes Hautes ?tudes en Sciences SocialesCenterfor South Asian Studies54Boulevard Raspail75006,Paris?? http://www.perso-indica.net/https://ehess.academia.edu/FabrizioSpeziale Il gioved? 13 settembre 2018, 14:33:11 CEST, Manu Francis via INDOLOGY ha scritto: Dear Colleagues, I am presently studying a set of spurious Chola copper plates (in Tamil and Telugu) in the Chennai Government Museum from available descriptions and translations (no illustrations, unfortunately). Sources mention that the plates bear a Persian seal. In the catalogue of copper-plates of the Museum Srinivasa Ayyangar (1918, p. 15) writes: ?This and the subjoined eleven grants are more or less similar in character. Two of them are exactly alike, while the rest differ in minor details. These bear a seal at the top of the plates, in which is inscribed, in Persian, ?R?h?lilla? which means dharma or charity and another seal at the end of the inscription, in which is inscribed, in Telugu, ?yekk?l App?j??.? Could anybody kindly enlighten me on ?R?h?lilla?? Is it Persian? Arabic? Both? What does it mean precisely? Are other examples known? A subsidiary question concerns ?yekk?l App?j??? What does it mean? Note that Burgess & Na???a ??str? (1886, pp. 137ff.), who edited and translated some of these plates, record variant readings of ?Yekk?l App?j?? on some of the plates: ?Yek?l App?j??, ?Ekk?lu App?j??. There is also a Telugu seal reading ?Yajva App?j??. Burgess, J. & S.M. Na???a ??str? (1886). Tamil and Sanskrit Inscriptions with Notes on Village Antiquities Collected chiefly in the South of Madras Presidency by Jas. Burgess. With Translations by Na???a ??str?. Madras: Government Press (Archaeological Survey of Southern India; 4). Srinivasa Ayyangar, R. (1918). Catalogue of Copper-plate Grants in the Government Museum, Madras. Madras: Printed by the Superintendent, Government Press. With very best wishes. -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrea.pinkney at mcgill.ca Thu Sep 13 13:38:34 2018 From: andrea.pinkney at mcgill.ca (Andrea Marion Pinkney, Prof) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 13:38:34 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Collaborative Research Grant Announcement (AAR-ICC): 1 October 2018 Message-ID: <1EBB3D97-4AA2-4D71-88CE-3828A2FC4AE1@mcgill.ca> Dear Colleagues, The AAR?s International Connections Committee (ICC) is accepting applications until 1 October 2018 for its Collaborative International Research Grants program (CIRG). Multiple grants between $500-$5000USD are awarded annually to support generative research collaborations between scholars located in different geographical regions who wish to pursue focused, joint projects in any area of the study of religion. In the past, numerous scholars working on South Asia have been recipients of CIRG awards to fund joint projects in diverse areas of the study of South Asian religions?see the list of previous awardees. Information on how to apply can be found here: https://www.aarweb.org/programs-services/collaborative-international-research-grants Information about the ICC is available here: https://www.aarweb.org/about/international-connections-committee Please contact Professor Amy Allocco, chair of the ICC, for any queries about the program (aallocco at elon.edu). With best wishes, Andrea Andrea Marion Pinkney Associate Professor, McGill University Co-Chair, Religion in South Asia Steering Committee, American Academy of Religion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Sep 13 14:02:20 2018 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 16:02:20 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: <18E497BF-BB9D-497C-A8E8-487B81B961A5@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Great thanks, Christophe. I have found Tripathi's edition of the Suparnadhyaya: https://archive.org/stream/SuparnaAdhyayaCommentaryJayaSwamyEd.GayaCharanTripathiDramaOfVedicAge/Suparna%20Adhyaya%20Commentary%20Jaya%20Swamy%20Ed.%20Gaya%20Charan%20Tripathi%20%28Drama%20of%20Vedic%20Age%29#page/n0 What catches my interest is that Astikaparvan's Indra while warning Garuda against offering the Soma [to the serpents] says that they would then expel [prab?dheyur] the giver. In the Suparnadhyaya - if the serpents (sarp??) are given [even on] drop [of Soma] they would make him [Garuda] people-less [ajanam]. 'Expulsion' made into 'genocide'? If so - what could be the reason for this change? For such reinforcement in the meaning of the key phrase? Thanks again, Artur Karp 2018-09-12 9:32 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle : > The snakes (to whom Garu?a is ready to bring the stolen Soma). > See the story as told in the late Vedic metrical play Supar??dhy?ya, s?kta > 14, varga 28, v. 10, > ed. and transl. Gaya Charan Tripathi (New Delhi: Nat.Mis.Mss and > DKPrintworld, 2016), pp. 252 (critically restored text), 295 (transl.) > indu? cet sarp?? p?syanti tvay? datta? viha?gama | > ajana? te kari?yanti tan na s?dhu bhavi?yati ||10|| > [Indra to Garu?a] > ?In case the snakes [are allowed to] drink the Soma (= am?tam) [bought by > you and] given to them, [[o Bird]], they will make a clean sweep of all > human beings [on earth]. This [surely] wouldn't be nice.? > And in s?kta 15, varga 29, v. 6, Indra turning to Garu?a (who has visited > the serpents, but has not given them the Sma): > ?I have excelled all my ennemies in might. Because of my might I am all in > this (i.e. overlord of this) world. How did you [dare to] take away by > force the Soma which is pressed [especially] for such a mightier than > mighty [person] like me.? > So one can infer that the soma provides this almightiness. > > Le 11 sept. 2018 ? 21:14, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear List Memebers, > > First of all: my thanks to all who gave me their time and answered my > query - preventing me from commiting a grave error. To Roland Steiner, Hans > Henrich Hock, David and Nancy Reigle, Tracy Coleman. > > Now, my second question --- > > In Mbh I, 30.7c-e Indra says (to Garuda): > > 01.030.007c na k?rya? tava somena mama soma? prad?yat?m > 01.030.007e asm??s te hi prab?dheyur yebhyo dady?d bhav?n imam > > VanBuitenen 1973: 90: "If you have no need for the soma, return the soma > to me. For those to whom you may give it will forever best us". > > [ad 'best': Monier-Williams has several other - sort of 'sharper' - > meanings for pra-b?dh: to repel, drive away, keep off (Mbh); to torment, > vex, hurt, injure, annoy. > > By the way - Kalyanov (I value his pioneering translation immensely) 1950: > 103: "Yesli ty ne nameren vospol'zovat'sya somoy, to day yeyo mne. Ibo te, > kotorym sobirayesh'sya dat' yeyo, budut vredit' nam". 'Budut vredit' nam' - > 'shall injure us'; no 'forever'.] > > *Whom the myth makers may have in mind when they speak about those who > "will forever best us"? * > > I'd be grateful if the comments were directed to the List, not to my > private e-mail address. > > Thanks, > > Artur Karp (M.A.) > Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) > South Asian Studies Department > University of Warsaw > > > > 2018-09-10 7:47 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : > >> Dear List, >> >> In Mbh I, 30.8 *b* Garuda says: >> >> na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham >> >> *kasmaicid* - (to) *whom*? >> >> Who is going to be excluded? >> >> Your opinion, please? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Artur Karp >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Sep 13 15:45:06 2018 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 17:45:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <26A94369-C3FE-4C81-92FF-350475264295@uclouvain.be> Dear Artur I would not take ajanam as an adj. depending of [tv?m = Garudam] but as a neutral subst. = a desert [place], a [place] devoid of people. Indeed if the serpents are immortals and poison all the people, it will be the case. See the same interpretation by J. Charpentier Die Supar?asage p. 269-270 (making also the // with the MBh 1,30.7) : https://archive.org/stream/diesuparnasageun00charuoft#page/270 "da werden sie Menschenleere bewirken" In the MBh, I understand that "they would expel us" (it is Indra who speaks) = the gods (normal, since by loosing the amrta they would lose their overlordship). Best, Christophe > Le 13 sept. 2018 ? 16:02, Artur Karp a ?crit : > > Great thanks, Christophe. > > I have found Tripathi's edition of the Suparnadhyaya: > > https://archive.org/stream/SuparnaAdhyayaCommentaryJayaSwamyEd.GayaCharanTripathiDramaOfVedicAge/Suparna%20Adhyaya%20Commentary%20Jaya%20Swamy%20Ed.%20Gaya%20Charan%20Tripathi%20%28Drama%20of%20Vedic%20Age%29#page/n0 > > What catches my interest is that Astikaparvan's Indra while warning Garuda against offering the Soma [to the serpents] says that they would then expel [prab?dheyur] the giver. In the Suparnadhyaya - if the serpents (sarp??) are given [even on] drop [of Soma] they would make him [Garuda] people-less [ajanam]. 'Expulsion' made into 'genocide'? If so - what could be the reason for this change? For such reinforcement in the meaning of the key phrase? > > Thanks again, > > Artur Karp > > > > > > > 2018-09-12 9:32 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle >: > The snakes (to whom Garu?a is ready to bring the stolen Soma). > See the story as told in the late Vedic metrical play Supar??dhy?ya, s?kta 14, varga 28, v. 10, > ed. and transl. Gaya Charan Tripathi (New Delhi: Nat.Mis.Mss and DKPrintworld, 2016), pp. 252 (critically restored text), 295 (transl.) > indu? cet sarp?? p?syanti tvay? datta? viha?gama | > ajana? te kari?yanti tan na s?dhu bhavi?yati ||10|| > [Indra to Garu?a] > ?In case the snakes [are allowed to] drink the Soma (= am?tam) [bought by you and] given to them, [[o Bird]], they will make a clean sweep of all human beings [on earth]. This [surely] wouldn't be nice.? > And in s?kta 15, varga 29, v. 6, Indra turning to Garu?a (who has visited the serpents, but has not given them the Sma): > ?I have excelled all my ennemies in might. Because of my might I am all in this (i.e. overlord of this) world. How did you [dare to] take away by force the Soma which is pressed [especially] for such a mightier than mighty [person] like me.? > So one can infer that the soma provides this almightiness. > >> Le 11 sept. 2018 ? 21:14, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : >> >> Dear List Memebers, >> >> First of all: my thanks to all who gave me their time and answered my query - preventing me from commiting a grave error. To Roland Steiner, Hans Henrich Hock, David and Nancy Reigle, Tracy Coleman. >> >> Now, my second question --- >> >> In Mbh I, 30.7c-e Indra says (to Garuda): >> >> 01.030.007c na k?rya? tava somena mama soma? prad?yat?m >> 01.030.007e asm??s te hi prab?dheyur yebhyo dady?d bhav?n imam >> >> VanBuitenen 1973: 90: "If you have no need for the soma, return the soma to me. For those to whom you may give it will forever best us". >> >> [ad 'best': Monier-Williams has several other - sort of 'sharper' - meanings for pra-b?dh: to repel, drive away, keep off (Mbh); to torment, vex, hurt, injure, annoy. >> >> By the way - Kalyanov (I value his pioneering translation immensely) 1950: 103: "Yesli ty ne nameren vospol'zovat'sya somoy, to day yeyo mne. Ibo te, kotorym sobirayesh'sya dat' yeyo, budut vredit' nam". 'Budut vredit' nam' - 'shall injure us'; no 'forever'.] >> >> Whom the myth makers may have in mind when they speak about those who "will forever best us"? >> >> I'd be grateful if the comments were directed to the List, not to my private e-mail address. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Artur Karp (M.A.) >> Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) >> South Asian Studies Department >> University of Warsaw >> >> >> >> 2018-09-10 7:47 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp >: >> Dear List, >> >> In Mbh I, 30.8 b Garuda says: >> >> na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham >> >> kasmaicid - (to) whom? >> >> Who is going to be excluded? >> >> Your opinion, please? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Sep 13 15:54:38 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 08:54:38 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ? ????????????? ?????? ???? ??? ???????????: ??????? O Krishna, I listen to your words, and the world around me is silent. Entering into my heart, you woke me up from my slumber. ????? ?? ????? ???: ??????????????????: ? ????????????????????: ??????? ?? ????? ??????? O Krishna, your sweet words, cool to the touch like the moon, lightening up the world, shine in my mind. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 18:40:48 2018 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 20:40:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) Message-ID: <266525d4-a404-c67c-8de0-134e6db40cf8@gmail.com> A colleague working on Hellenic religious reconstructionism recently came across an 1852 book by one Edward Pococke entitled /India in Greece: Truth in Mythology (Containing the Sources of the Hellenic Race, the Colonization of Egypt and Palestine, the Wars of the Grand Lama and the Bud'histic Propaganda in Greece)/. The book itself is available on Archive, and there is some information on the author on WorldCat, but not much. Would anyone on this list happen to know more about Pococke and his work? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 19:04:33 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 15:04:33 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) In-Reply-To: <266525d4-a404-c67c-8de0-134e6db40cf8@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/epococke.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Pococke https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Edward_Pococke https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pococke-edward-x00b0 his writings available on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Edward-Pococke/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AEdward%20Pococke Dan > On Sep 13, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Edward Pococke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 19:44:34 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 15:44:34 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5AEF01E2-3472-4EC7-BEBA-EF158A791EEE@gmail.com> Since the author of India in Greece lived 2 centuries later than the same-named Edward Pococke (17th c), the links I sent are moot - unless the 19th c name is a deliberate pseudonym drawing on his illustrious predecessor. Perhaps one of Urs Apps? books on the western discovery of Buddhism ? e.g. The Cult of Emptiness. the Western Discovery of Buddhist Thought and the Invention of Oriental Philosophy (2014); or The Birth of Orientalism (Encounters with Asia) (2010) ? has some information on the 19th c figure. I don?t have them on hand at the moment. Dan > On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:04 PM, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > > http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/epococke.html > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Pococke > > https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Edward_Pococke > > https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pococke-edward-x00b0 > > his writings available on amazon: > https://www.amazon.com/Books-Edward-Pococke/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AEdward%20Pococke > > Dan > >> On Sep 13, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> Edward Pococke > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 19:46:31 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 13:46:31 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indo-European graduate studies? Message-ID: What are the top universities for graduate studies in IE at the moment? I'm aware of this list . Many thanks Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 20:05:09 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 16:05:09 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) In-Reply-To: <5AEF01E2-3472-4EC7-BEBA-EF158A791EEE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <283531BB-4053-4C84-A880-FF661853A29D@gmail.com> Apologies for the continuing messages. A little further digging reveals another book in which he took part, for which he edited the second edition - History of Greece, Macedonia and Syria (London: 1852): https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=-BpCAAAAcAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=edward+pococke+india&ots=SMnATEGEtb&sig=Ke27VA0RmKzkSyBKQ-e5T9fYWgg#v=onepage&q=edward%20pococke%20india&f=false In a list of publications by the same publisher at the front of the book, Pococke is mentioned as a co-author of a book titled A History of Greek Literature. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthew.scarborough at cantab.net Thu Sep 13 20:20:01 2018 From: matthew.scarborough at cantab.net (Matthew Scarborough) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 21:20:01 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indo-European graduate studies? Message-ID: <58867.24.66.17.56.1536870001.squirrel@www.cantab.net> Dear Dominik, There is also a useful list of universities currently offering courses and options in Indo-European studies on the Indogermanische Gesellshaft / Society for Indo-European Studies website, with helpful web links to individual programmes. https://www.indogermanistik.org/indogermanistik/studium/lehrstuehle.html Which programmes may be considered 'top' probably depends a lot on what a given student wants to research given the field is broad and different departments have their own special areas of concentration. In the USA, UCLA, Harvard, and Cornell have very good generalist IE programmes. There are many more in Europe; the programmes in??Copenhagen, Cologne, Munich, Leiden, Jena, Z??rich, and??Vienna are all highly regarded (apologies to my colleagues if I've missed any other obvious programmes). Kind regards, Matthew On Thu, September 13, 2018 20:46, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > What are the top universities for graduate studies in IE at the moment? > I'm aware of this list > > _centres> > . > > > Many thanks > Dominik > > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > > South Asia at the U of A: > > > sas.ualberta.ca _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > -- Dr. M. J. C. Scarborough Research Associate in Comparative Indo-European Linguistics Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution http://www.shh.mpg.de/438157/cobldatabase ???????? ?????????? ??????????, ???????????? ???????? ?????? "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 20:39:06 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 14:39:06 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ganganatha_Jha=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=9CSecond_Edition=E2=80=94Thoroughly_Revised=E2=80=9D_of_The_Yoga-Darshana?= Message-ID: To honor the intention of one of the greatest translators of dar?ana texts in modern times, Gang?n?tha Jh?, in a world where digital books have now come to be expected, I make the following inquiry. I am wondering if the ?Second Edition?Thoroughly Revised? of Gang?n?tha Jh??s translation, *The Yoga-Darshana, Comprising the S?tras of Pata?jali?with the Bh??ya of Vy?sa*, published in 1934, is available digitally. The 1907 first edition is widely available, both digitally and in various reprints, but this does a disservice to Gang?n?tha Jh?. He regarded the first edition, translated by him in 1895, as the work of a mere neophyte, while his second thoroughly revised edition is the fruit if his mature scholarship. He wrote in his 1907 Preface: ?The translation now placed before the public was prepared so long ago as 1895; and the vicissitudes through which the manuscript has passed has made it absolutely impossible for it to undergo any revision. So what is presented here is the work of a mere neophyte in the mysteries of Sanskrit Philosophical translation; and the translator would therefore, at the very outset, offer his apologies to the reader, for his providing for him what he himself considers a rather poor fare.? He wrote in his 1934 Preface: ?This revised and entirely re-written translation is presented before the world of scholars, in liquidation of the fourth, and I hope, the last debt due from me. This is the last of my works which I myself regarded as imperfect; and it was therefore due to the scholarly world that it should be revised. . . . In this revised edition, I have made the work as good as it lay in my power to make it.? I have already provided the second edition to Asian Humanities Press/Jain Publishing Company for a photographic reprint in 2002, still available, but am making this query for the sake of those who require digital books. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 20:47:17 2018 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 22:47:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indo-European graduate studies? In-Reply-To: <58867.24.66.17.56.1536870001.squirrel@www.cantab.net> Message-ID: In addition to the programs listed you may want to see the website of the Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes: https://www.ephe.fr/ search under: indo-europ?en linguistique baltique et indo-europ?enne avestique v?dique JH On 13 September 2018 at 22:20, Matthew Scarborough via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Dominik, > > There is also a useful list of universities currently offering courses and > options in Indo-European studies on the Indogermanische Gesellshaft / > Society for Indo-European Studies website, with helpful web links to > individual programmes. > > https://www.indogermanistik.org/indogermanistik/studium/lehrstuehle.html > > Which programmes may be considered 'top' probably depends a lot on what a > given student wants to research given the field is broad and different > departments have their own special areas of concentration. In the USA, > UCLA, Harvard, and Cornell have very good generalist IE programmes. There > are many more in Europe; the programmes in Copenhagen, Cologne, Munich, > Leiden, Jena, Z?rich, and Vienna are all highly regarded (apologies to my > colleagues if I've missed any other obvious programmes). > > Kind regards, > > Matthew > > On Thu, September 13, 2018 20:46, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > > What are the top universities for graduate studies in IE at the moment? > > I'm aware of this list > > > _centres> > > . > > > > > > Many thanks > > Dominik > > > > > > -- > > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > > , > > > > > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > > , > > > > > > Department of History and Classics > > > > , > > University of Alberta, Canada > > . > > > > > > South Asia at the U of A: > > > > > > sas.ualberta.ca _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > > options or unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > Dr. M. J. C. Scarborough > > Research Associate in Comparative Indo-European Linguistics > Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution > http://www.shh.mpg.de/438157/cobldatabase > > ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? > "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 21:02:49 2018 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 18 23:02:49 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indo-European graduate studies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: not to forget (through the same website www.ephe.fr): langues et litt?ratures celtiques philologie italique gallois linguistique gauloise histoire et philologie de la Scandinavie ancienne et m?di?vale (courses partly/mostly taught from indo-europeanist perspective) JH On 13 September 2018 at 22:47, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > In addition to the programs listed you may want to see the website of the > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes: > https://www.ephe.fr/ > search under: > indo-europ?en > linguistique baltique et indo-europ?enne > avestique > v?dique > > JH > > On 13 September 2018 at 22:20, Matthew Scarborough via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Dominik, >> >> There is also a useful list of universities currently offering courses >> and options in Indo-European studies on the Indogermanische Gesellshaft / >> Society for Indo-European Studies website, with helpful web links to >> individual programmes. >> >> https://www.indogermanistik.org/indogermanistik/studium/lehrstuehle.html >> >> Which programmes may be considered 'top' probably depends a lot on what a >> given student wants to research given the field is broad and different >> departments have their own special areas of concentration. In the USA, >> UCLA, Harvard, and Cornell have very good generalist IE programmes. There >> are many more in Europe; the programmes in Copenhagen, Cologne, Munich, >> Leiden, Jena, Z?rich, and Vienna are all highly regarded (apologies to my >> colleagues if I've missed any other obvious programmes). >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Matthew >> >> On Thu, September 13, 2018 20:46, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: >> > What are the top universities for graduate studies in IE at the moment? >> > I'm aware of this list >> > > _centres> >> > . >> > >> > >> > Many thanks >> > Dominik >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> > , >> > >> > >> > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> > , >> > >> > >> > Department of History and Classics >> > >> > , >> > University of Alberta, Canada >> > . >> > >> > >> > South Asia at the U of A: >> > >> > >> > sas.ualberta.ca _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> > committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your >> list >> > options or unsubscribe) >> > >> >> >> -- >> Dr. M. J. C. Scarborough >> >> Research Associate in Comparative Indo-European Linguistics >> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History >> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution >> http://www.shh.mpg.de/438157/cobldatabase >> >> ???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ??? >> "Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr * > > *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Sep 13 22:16:38 2018 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 00:16:38 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Garuda's resolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Artur Karp Date: 2018-09-14 0:15 GMT+02:00 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Garuda's resolution To: Christophe Vielle Dear Christophe, allow me to disagree re the meaning of *ajanam*. S. jana - taken as a collective noun - may mean 'subjects'. *ajana? te kari?yanti* - could then mean: 'will make you subject-less", "will deprive you of [your] subjects". *asm??s te hi prab?dheyur *------- *ajana? te kari?yanti* Roughly: <> Very roughly. Best, Artur 2018-09-13 17:45 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle : > Dear Artur > > I would not take ajanam as an adj. depending of [tv?m = Garudam] but as a > neutral subst. = a desert [place], a [place] devoid of people. Indeed if > the serpents are immortals and poison all the people, it will be the case. > See the same interpretation by J. Charpentier *Die Supar**?**asag*e p. > 269-270 (making also the // with the MBh 1,30.7) : > > https://archive.org/stream/diesuparnasageun00charuoft#page/270 > > "da werden sie Menschenleere bewirken" > > In the MBh, I understand that "they would expel *us*" (it is Indra who > speaks) = the gods (normal, since by loosing the amrta they would lose > their overlordship). > > Best, > > Christophe > > Le 13 sept. 2018 ? 16:02, Artur Karp a ?crit : > > Great thanks, Christophe. > > I have found Tripathi's edition of the Suparnadhyaya: > > https://archive.org/stream/SuparnaAdhyayaCommentaryJayaSwamy > Ed.GayaCharanTripathiDramaOfVedicAge/Suparna%20Adhyaya%20Com > mentary%20Jaya%20Swamy%20Ed.%20Gaya%20Charan%20Tripathi%20% > 28Drama%20of%20Vedic%20Age%29#page/n0 > > What catches my interest is that Astikaparvan's Indra while warning Garuda > against offering the Soma [to the serpents] says that they would then expel > [prab?dheyur] the giver. In the Suparnadhyaya - if the serpents (sarp??) > are given [even on] drop [of Soma] they would make him [Garuda] > people-less [ajanam]. 'Expulsion' made into 'genocide'? If so - what could > be the reason for this change? For such reinforcement in the meaning of the > key phrase? > > Thanks again, > > Artur Karp > > > > > > > 2018-09-12 9:32 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle e>: > >> The snakes (to whom Garu?a is ready to bring the stolen Soma). >> See the story as told in the late Vedic metrical play Supar??dhy?ya, s?kta >> 14, varga 28, v. 10, >> ed. and transl. Gaya Charan Tripathi (New Delhi: Nat.Mis.Mss and >> DKPrintworld, 2016), pp. 252 (critically restored text), 295 (transl.) >> indu? cet sarp?? p?syanti tvay? datta? viha?gama | >> ajana? te kari?yanti tan na s?dhu bhavi?yati ||10|| >> [Indra to Garu?a] >> ?In case the snakes [are allowed to] drink the Soma (= am?tam) [bought >> by you and] given to them, [[o Bird]], they will make a clean sweep of all >> human beings [on earth]. This [surely] wouldn't be nice.? >> And in s?kta 15, varga 29, v. 6, Indra turning to Garu?a (who has >> visited the serpents, but has not given them the Sma): >> ?I have excelled all my ennemies in might. Because of my might I am all >> in this (i.e. overlord of this) world. How did you [dare to] take away by >> force the Soma which is pressed [especially] for such a mightier than >> mighty [person] like me.? >> So one can infer that the soma provides this almightiness. >> >> Le 11 sept. 2018 ? 21:14, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : >> >> Dear List Memebers, >> >> First of all: my thanks to all who gave me their time and answered my >> query - preventing me from commiting a grave error. To Roland Steiner, Hans >> Henrich Hock, David and Nancy Reigle, Tracy Coleman. >> >> Now, my second question --- >> >> In Mbh I, 30.7c-e Indra says (to Garuda): >> >> 01.030.007c na k?rya? tava somena mama soma? prad?yat?m >> 01.030.007e asm??s te hi prab?dheyur yebhyo dady?d bhav?n imam >> >> VanBuitenen 1973: 90: "If you have no need for the soma, return the soma >> to me. For those to whom you may give it will forever best us". >> >> [ad 'best': Monier-Williams has several other - sort of 'sharper' - >> meanings for pra-b?dh: to repel, drive away, keep off (Mbh); to torment, >> vex, hurt, injure, annoy. >> >> By the way - Kalyanov (I value his pioneering translation immensely) >> 1950: 103: "Yesli ty ne nameren vospol'zovat'sya somoy, to day yeyo mne. >> Ibo te, kotorym sobirayesh'sya dat' yeyo, budut vredit' nam". 'Budut >> vredit' nam' - 'shall injure us'; no 'forever'.] >> >> *Whom the myth makers may have in mind when they speak about those who >> "will forever best us"? * >> >> I'd be grateful if the comments were directed to the List, not to my >> private e-mail address. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Artur Karp (M.A.) >> Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.) >> South Asian Studies Department >> University of Warsaw >> >> >> >> 2018-09-10 7:47 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp : >> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> In Mbh I, 30.8 *b* Garuda says: >>> >>> na d?sy?mi sam?d?tu? soma? kasmaicidapyaham >>> >>> *kasmaicid* - (to) *whom*? >>> >>> Who is going to be excluded? >>> >>> Your opinion, please? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> >> >> > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Fri Sep 14 06:34:20 2018 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 08:34:20 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) In-Reply-To: <266525d4-a404-c67c-8de0-134e6db40cf8@gmail.com> Message-ID: >From a quick google search "India OIT Pococke", his work appears well known and used in various writings related to the "Out of India" view. Best, Christophe > Le 13 sept. 2018 ? 20:40, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > A colleague working on Hellenic religious reconstructionism recently came across an 1852 book by one Edward Pococke entitled India in Greece: Truth in Mythology (Containing the Sources of the Hellenic Race, the Colonization of Egypt and Palestine, the Wars of the Grand Lama and the Bud'histic Propaganda in Greece). The book itself is available on Archive, and there is some information on the author on WorldCat, but not much. Would anyone on this list happen to know more about Pococke and his work? > > Thanks in advance, > Martin Gansten > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 09:05:55 2018 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 14:35:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 Message-ID: Dear list members I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is that American oriental Society Connectict ?? Could anyone kindly help. PS Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject Thanks Krishna Prasad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david_buchta at brown.edu Fri Sep 14 10:56:53 2018 From: david_buchta at brown.edu (Buchta, David) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 06:56:53 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Krishna Prasad, The "America" entries in NCC are a reference to Poleman's *Census of Indic Manuscripts in the United States and Canada. *Your Jagaddhara manuscript is right there on p. 96 as entry 2085: The "H" here stands for Harvard. You may also want to contact Peter Scharf, who was involved in digitizing some of the manuscripts at Harvard, Penn, Brown and other places. Best, Dave -- David Buchta, PhD Lecturer in Sanskrit Department of Classics Brown University On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:05 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members > > I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript > which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. > > NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the > initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is > that > American oriental Society Connectict ?? > Could anyone kindly help. > > PS > Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject > > > Thanks > Krishna Prasad > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 10:57:32 2018 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 12:57:32 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, In your mail to the Indology list at 2 September you referred to the ?nand??rama Series edition of the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra* (i.e., the Yogas?tra together with the so-called Yogabh??ya) by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e as being ?in effect a critical edition?, since it is based on twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes. I fully agree with you that this edition is useful since it presents a fairly intelligible Sanskrit text and some variants from manuscripts and printed editions in footnotes. But the edition is still is not a critical edition in the modern academic usage of the term ?critical edition?. K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e did not explain the method he used to generate the main text of his edition, and he was apparently completely unaware of the fact that the different text versions transmitted in the four manuscript and four printed edition that he used for the PY? are the result of changes that occurred during the history of the transmission of the PY? in writing. For a more comprehensive characterization of this edition, see the introduction to my critical edition of the Sam?dhip?da of the PY? (Maas 2006 , to which you kindly referred) on p. xxiii? xxiv. In any case, all manuscripts and printed editions at ?g??e's disposal transmit a fairly similar text, i.e. the vulgate version of the PY?. Not a single witness used by ?g??e transmits the "Southern Version" of the PY? which frequenlty has a better text quality than the vulgate (see see my article ?On the written transmission of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra? here ). The edition of the PY? by Vimala Kanartaka (1992, No. 21 in Maas 2006) that you mention, is also not a critical edition in any technical sense of the word. The main text in Karnataka?s edition is virtually a reproduction of the main text in the edition by N?r?ya?ami?ra (Varanasi 1971, no. 15. in Maas 2006) with only 11 deviation in the first chapter. As a comparison of the variant reading that Kanartaka reported in the footnotes of her edition with the original witnesses shows, her apparatus is not very reliable (see Maas 2006: xxxi f.). With best wishes, Philipp __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am So., 2. Sep. 2018 um 21:01 Uhr schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY : > Dear Dhaval Patel, > > If you just want to get an idea of what is in the various commentaries, > any edition will do. But if you need to do serious research, commentaries > that are well edited and accurately printed are necessary. In the case of > the Vy?sa commentary, several editions are available. About the early > editions, here is what James Haughton Woods wrote in the Preface to his > 1914 English translation (p. xi): > > "The most accessible and the most carefully elaborated of these books is > the one published in the ?nand??rama Series and edited by K???n?tha Sh?str > ? ?g??e. Variants from twelve manuscripts, mostly southern, are printed > at the foot of each page; and Bhojadeva's V?tti is appended; also the > text of the s?tras by itself and an index thereto. Another edition, in > the Bombay Sanskrit Series, by R?jar?m Sh?str? Bodas, is also an > excellent piece of work. I have, however, made use of the edition by Sv?mi > B?lar?ma (Calcutta, Sa?vat 1947, A.D. 1890; reprinted in Benares A.D. > 1908) because it is based on northern manuscripts and because of the > valuable notes in the editor's *?ippa?a*." > > The edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma was very hard to find. I finally had a > friend make a photocopy of the 1908 reprint at the Harvard University > Library, apparently the copy previously used by Woods. The ?nand??rama > Series edition has been reprinted several times, but the reprints are > re-typeset, introducing new typographical errors. So I photocopied the > original 1904 edition at the University of Chicago Library. The original > 1892 Bombay Sanskrit Series edition was also hard to find in North America, > but I was able to photocopy it from the American Oriental Society Library > at the Yale University Library. Scans of all three are posted here, along > with a few other commentaries on the Yogas?tras: > http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ > > Since the ?nand??rama Series edition was edited by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e > from twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes, it is in > effect a critical edition. However, the first critical edition that was > called such is that by Vimala Karnatak, *P?ta?jala-Yoga-Dar?anam*, four > volumes, Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University & Ratna Publications, 1992. It > includes the commentaries by Vy?sa, V?caspati-mi?ra, and Vij??na-bhik?u. > It also includes her own Hindi exposition. > > More recently the first volume of a critical edition by Philipp Maas was > published: *Sam?dhip?da: das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * zum > ersten Mal kritish ediert = The first chapter of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * > for the first time critically edited*, Aachen: Shaker, 2006. This is a > very thorough critical edition of the Yogas?tras and Vy?sa's commentary, > together forming the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, using all available sources. > We anxiously await further volumes of this definitive critical edition. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 10:12 PM Dhaval Patel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear scholars, >> >> I am looking for published commentaries on Yogasutra. The attached work >> mentioned 21 such published Sanskrit commentaries in bibliography from page >> 55-57. >> >> I have been able to locate book 3 in this list. >> I would appreciate if any scholar can point to pdf or purchasable copy of >> any of the above work. >> Also any other Sanskrit commentaries on Yoga works would be welcome. >> >> Best wishes >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 11:27:54 2018 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 16:57:54 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David Nichta Thanks a lot for your help On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 4:26 PM Buchta, David, wrote: > Hi Krishna Prasad, > > The "America" entries in NCC are a reference to Poleman's *Census of > Indic Manuscripts in the United States and Canada. *Your Jagaddhara > manuscript is right there on p. 96 as entry 2085: > > The "H" here stands for Harvard. You may also want to contact Peter > Scharf, who was involved in digitizing some of the manuscripts at Harvard, > Penn, Brown and other places. > > Best, > Dave > > -- > David Buchta, PhD > Lecturer in Sanskrit > Department of Classics > Brown University > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:05 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear list members >> >> I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript >> which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. >> >> NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the >> initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is >> that >> American oriental Society Connectict ?? >> Could anyone kindly help. >> >> PS >> Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject >> >> >> Thanks >> Krishna Prasad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 12:36:06 2018 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 14:36:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: just a side note: I believe that Harvard is making efforts to digitize their Skt MS holdings; they provided me recently with excellent photos, and were good enough to move my MS up in the list of those waiting to be photographed, so my assumption is that when scholars are interested in a particular MS they can facilitate access. Jonathan On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear David Nichta > Thanks a lot for your help > > On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 4:26 PM Buchta, David, > wrote: > >> Hi Krishna Prasad, >> >> The "America" entries in NCC are a reference to Poleman's *Census of >> Indic Manuscripts in the United States and Canada. *Your Jagaddhara >> manuscript is right there on p. 96 as entry 2085: >> >> The "H" here stands for Harvard. You may also want to contact Peter >> Scharf, who was involved in digitizing some of the manuscripts at Harvard, >> Penn, Brown and other places. >> >> Best, >> Dave >> >> -- >> David Buchta, PhD >> Lecturer in Sanskrit >> Department of Classics >> Brown University >> >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:05 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members >>> >>> I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript >>> which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. >>> >>> NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the >>> initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is >>> that >>> American oriental Society Connectict ?? >>> Could anyone kindly help. >>> >>> PS >>> Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> Krishna Prasad >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 12:38:27 2018 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 18:08:27 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan Silk Thanks for the information. Can you please share the email address of a concerned department. Thanks On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 6:06 PM Jonathan Silk, wrote: > just a side note: I believe that Harvard is making efforts to digitize > their Skt MS holdings; they provided me recently with excellent photos, and > were good enough to move my MS up in the list of those waiting to be > photographed, so my assumption is that when scholars are interested in a > particular MS they can facilitate access. > Jonathan > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear David Nichta >> Thanks a lot for your help >> >> On Fri 14 Sep, 2018, 4:26 PM Buchta, David, >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Krishna Prasad, >>> >>> The "America" entries in NCC are a reference to Poleman's *Census of >>> Indic Manuscripts in the United States and Canada. *Your Jagaddhara >>> manuscript is right there on p. 96 as entry 2085: >>> >>> The "H" here stands for Harvard. You may also want to contact Peter >>> Scharf, who was involved in digitizing some of the manuscripts at Harvard, >>> Penn, Brown and other places. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> David Buchta, PhD >>> Lecturer in Sanskrit >>> Department of Classics >>> Brown University >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:05 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear list members >>>> >>>> I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript >>>> which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. >>>> >>>> NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the >>>> initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is >>>> that >>>> American oriental Society Connectict ?? >>>> Could anyone kindly help. >>>> >>>> PS >>>> Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Krishna Prasad >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 16:33:30 2018 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 16:33:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Krishna Prasad, I don?t know if you are aware of it, but the Bodleian Libraries also hold a manuscript of this work, it is MS Chandra Shum Shere d.404(2) (70 ff. in Devanagari). If you need to order reproductions, please contact me. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Krishnaprasad G Sent: 14 September 2018 10:06 To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 Dear list members I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is that American oriental Society Connectict ?? Could anyone kindly help. PS Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject Thanks Krishna Prasad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:15:39 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 14:15:39 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry to be lazy, but is it possible to summarize the scholarship on ?/kh alternation as stating that it is - due in some cases to orthographic practice, - in other cases to spoken dialectical variation, and - in yet other cases to the orthographic recording of a spoken form? In other words, when we see ?/kh in manuscripts, it's not automatically possible to tell whether we are seeing a valid recording of phonetic /?/ or /kh/, or just a scribe writing kh when he sees ? in his exemplar or hears /?/ in the dictation he's following? So a critical editor should not automatically transcribe vikhaya or dokha as vi?aya and do?a? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 02:36, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > My sincere thanks to all who helped me understand this phenomenon! > Jonathan > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Jonathan and colleagues, >> >> >> Concerning* kh* / *?*, cf. Weber, *?ber ein zum Weissen Yajus geh?riges >> phonetisches Compendium, das Pratijn?s?tra* 1872: 84~85; Pischel ? 265; >> Oertel, *The Syntax of Cases in the Narrative and Descriptive Prose of >> the Br?hma?as*, I. *The Disjunct Use of Cases *1926: 56, ? 29, ex. 6; >> AiGr I, p. 136-137, Nachtr?ge p. 75; *Vedic Variants* II ? 295; Renou, >> Gr, p. 4; Allen, *Phonetics in Ancient India *1953: 56; Bloch/Master p. >> 73; Handurukande 1967: xiii; Kuiper, *Gop?lakelicandrik?* 1987: 152~154 >> ( ?the old North indian tradition? ?a common interchange arising from >> R?jasth?n? speech?); BHSD, p. 532, *?e?ita* (f?r *?ekhita*); Masato >> Kobayashi, *Historical Phonology of Old Indo-Aryan Consonants*, 2004: 60 >> (?/s./ and /kh/ are often confused in some manuscripts and in later >> Indo-Aryan languages?); cf. also *A Dictinaray of Old Marathi* (abbr. >> DOM) dokha < Skt. do?a; vi?aya: DOM:/cf. vikhaya; a-nam?kha : DOM: >> ?without blinking, vigilantly" < animi?a; agha-markha?a /Skt. aghamar??a >> etc. etc. >> >> >> Seishi Karashima >> >> >> 2018-09-12 23:35 GMT+09:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info>: >> >>> Dear Jonathan, >>> >>> As Professor Girish Jha described, the change of ?a to kha, except >>> in conjuncts with ?a-varga [?: ?????????], is prescribed by the Pr?ti??khya >>> of the ?ukla-Yajurveda and seen in the recitation of this Veda till today. >>> This also results in variation like p??a??a/p?kha??a. Certainly, a >>> wide-spread dialectal feature. >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:41 AM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael >>>> Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in >>>> various journals in the 1970s-1990s. >>>> >>>> >>>> Arlo Griffiths >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>>> Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM >>>> *To:* jhakgirish >>>> *Cc:* bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology >>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember >>>> having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that >>>> kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that >>>> they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John >>>> Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and >>>> Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a >>>> "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically >>>> motivated fusion? >>>> >>>> Curious, Jonathan Silk >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear colleagues >>>> Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the >>>> meaning >>>> daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. >>>> Girish K.Jha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: jhakgirish >>>> Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) >>>> To: Indology , bvparishat at googlegroups.com >>>> Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha >>>> >>>> Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." >>>> shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except >>>> combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is >>>> pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost >>>> all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to >>>> mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only >>>> pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha >>>> and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of >>>> the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European >>>> period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit >>>> "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish >>>> K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India >>>> 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy >>>> smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian < >>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: >>>> BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: >>>> {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, >>>> 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi wrote:Interestingly >>>> this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My >>>> grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? >>>> ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in >>>> Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, >>>> 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? >>>> ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are >>>> subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> J. Silk >>>> Leiden University >>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>>> The Netherlands >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at >>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:27:33 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 14:27:33 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tattvadipini Commentary MSS America 2085 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Poleman's Census is available at archive.org: https://archive.org/details/PolemanCensus1938 So is David Pingree's unpublished reverse index of the Harvard MSS mentioned in Poleman: https://archive.org/details/PingreeReverseindexofPolemanMSSatHarvard -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 04:57, Buchta, David via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Hi Krishna Prasad, > > The "America" entries in NCC are a reference to Poleman's *Census of > Indic Manuscripts in the United States and Canada. *Your Jagaddhara > manuscript is right there on p. 96 as entry 2085: > > The "H" here stands for Harvard. You may also want to contact Peter > Scharf, who was involved in digitizing some of the manuscripts at Harvard, > Penn, Brown and other places. > > Best, > Dave > > > -- > David Buchta, PhD > Lecturer in Sanskrit > Department of Classics > Brown University > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:05 AM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear list members >> >> I am looking forward some favor to search the Tattvadipini Manuscript >> which is written by Jagaddhara on the original work Vasavadatta. >> >> NCC suggests America 2085 and I also happen to see it expansion in the >> initial pages. But I am not clear as to which institute to be contacted. Is >> that >> American oriental Society Connectict ?? >> Could anyone kindly help. >> >> PS >> Tattvadipini editing is my thesis Subject >> >> >> Thanks >> Krishna Prasad >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 00:44:20 2018 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 09:44:20 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik and colleagues, (1) Concerning kh / ?: Ulrich Schneider wrote that the alternation of *kh / *? is due to their phonetical resemblance in the following article (see attachment; 1954: 580, n. 22 = 2002: 23, n. 22). Ulrich Schneider, 1954 ?Acht Etymologien aus dem Agga??a-Sutta?, in: *Asiatica: Festschrift Friedrich Weller*, Leipzig, pp. 575~583 = 2002: 18~26. 2002 *Opera minora*, hrsg. Marion Meisig, Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz (Beitr?ge zur Indologie 39). I asked my teacher, Mr. K. R. Norman, for his opinion on this matter more than thirty years ago in Cambridge. According to my memo, he said that the two *ak?ara*s, *kh(a)* and *?(a)*, resemble in some Br?hm? scripts. However, I do not think this confusion is due to writing ?? I cannot find such a script ???, but purely due to phonetical resemblance. *Puru?a* is pronounced like *purukha*, while *sukha* is pronounced like *su?a*. I assume that both *kh* and *?* were (are?) pronounced as voiceless velar fricative (x) at least in North (West) India at certain times. (2) Concerning *j? /j* Writing and pronunciation often differ. I wrote about lots of instances of confusion of *j??na* / *y?na* in the Lotus Sutra and other early Mah?y?na scriptures, and assumed that *mah?y?na* originally meant *mah?j??na* (this word occurs in the older manuscripts of the Lotus Sutra), i.e. *buddha-j??na*. Both *j??na* and *y?na *become as *j?na *or* j??a* in certain Middle Indic as well as modern languages. I wrote elsewhere as follows (?Vehicle (*y?na*) and Wisdom (*j??na*) in the Lotus Sutra ??? the Origin of the Notion of *y?na* in Mah?y?na Buddhism?, in: *Annual Report of The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology at Soka University*, vol. 18 (2015): 170f.) OIA. *y?na* (= P?; G?ndh?r? *ya?a*) becomes *j??a* in Prakrit (Pkt.), while OIA. *j??na* (> P?. *???a*, G?ndh?r? *?a?a*) develops into *???a*, *n??a *or *j??a*.(Cf. Pischel: ? 276.) Though Turner (CDIAL 5281 *j??na-*) assumes that the development *j??na* > Pkt. *j??a* took place under the influence of the verb *j?n?ti*, I assume the development *j?-* > Pkt. *j(j)* might have occurred by itself (note 1). There are traces of OIA. *j??na* > Pkt. **j?na*/*j??a*, found in medieval and modern dialects, such as: Old Marathi *j??a* (see DOM, s.v.), Sindh? *j??u*, Panj?b? *j??*, Gujar?t? *j??*, Kashmiri *z?n*, New?li, Bengali, Hind? *j?n* etc. (Turner, loc. cit.). To sum up, both *y?na* and *j??na* became **j?na/j??a* in Prakrit (note 2). 1 Cf. *?j??* > Pkt. *ajja*, *praj??* > Pkt. *pajj? abhij??* > *ahijja*; *vij?a* > *vijja* ; *sarvaj?a* > *savvajja*; *suj??na* > *sujj??a *(cf. Pischel ? 276); *j??nin* > *j??i*; *sa?j??* > *sa?j?*. Cf. also *Siddhahemacandram Adhy?na *VIII*, *II 83. *|| j?o ?a? || 83 || j?a? sa?bandhino ?asya lug v? bhavati | j??a? | ???a? | savvajjo | savva??? | appajjo | appa??? | daivajjo | daiva??? | i?giajjo | i?gia??? | ma?ojja? | ma?o??a? | ahijjo | ahi??? | pajj? | pa??? | ajj? | ??? | sa?j? | sa??? || kvacin na bhavati | vi????a? |* (Pischel 1877: 53); BHSD, *a-j?naka*, *j?naka.* In the Jain text *Mah?nis?ha*, whose language is essentially Jaina M?h?r???r? though blended with Ardham?gadh?, we find a part, where *n??a* and *j??a*, both Pkt forms of Skt. *j??na*, occur repeatedly side by side (Deleu / Schubring 1963: 51; translation 120f.). 2 In the Jaina text *S?yaga?a*, ? 1.1.1.18, there is a word *j??ay?*, which is said to mean ?Buddhists? (cf. MW, s.v. 2 *j?naka* ?pl. the Buddhists?). Some relate this form to *y?na*, while others to *j??naka*. Cf. Boll?e 1977: 75. Also, some Chinese transliterations indicate that* j??na* was pronounced *j?na*, T. 28, no. 1546, 33a. ????(EH. d?ja na > QYS. ?ja n?-; < *j??na*)???(wisdom)????(EH. bi d?ja na > QYS. bi- ?ja n?-; < *vij??na*)???(consciousness). Cf. also a famous translator?s name, ???? Jn?nagupta. The Chinese character ?(EH. d?ja > QYS. ?ja) was used otherwise to render Indic *j?, jh?*, e.g. ??(*jh?pita*), ?? (*j?ti*). Sorry for this long e-mail. Seishi Karashima 2018-09-15 5:15 GMT+09:00 Dominik Wujastyk : > I'm sorry to be lazy, but is it possible to summarize the scholarship on > ?/kh alternation as stating that it is > > - due in some cases to orthographic practice, > - in other cases to spoken dialectical variation, and > - in yet other cases to the orthographic recording of a spoken form? > > In other words, when we see ?/kh in manuscripts, it's not automatically > possible to tell whether we are seeing a valid recording of phonetic /?/ or > /kh/, or just a scribe writing kh when he sees ? in his exemplar or hears > /?/ in the dictation he's following? So a critical editor should not > automatically transcribe vikhaya or dokha as vi?aya and do?a? > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > , > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > > Department of History and Classics > > , > University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > > sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 02:36, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> My sincere thanks to all who helped me understand this phenomenon! >> Jonathan >> >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jonathan and colleagues, >>> >>> >>> Concerning* kh* / *?*, cf. Weber, *?ber ein zum Weissen Yajus geh?riges >>> phonetisches Compendium, das Pratijn?s?tra* 1872: 84~85; Pischel ? 265; >>> Oertel, *The Syntax of Cases in the Narrative and Descriptive Prose of >>> the Br?hma?as*, I. *The Disjunct Use of Cases *1926: 56, ? 29, ex. 6; >>> AiGr I, p. 136-137, Nachtr?ge p. 75; *Vedic Variants* II ? 295; Renou, >>> Gr, p. 4; Allen, *Phonetics in Ancient India *1953: 56; Bloch/Master p. >>> 73; Handurukande 1967: xiii; Kuiper, *Gop?lakelicandrik?* 1987: 152~154 >>> ( ?the old North indian tradition? ?a common interchange arising from >>> R?jasth?n? speech?); BHSD, p. 532, *?e?ita* (f?r *?ekhita*); Masato >>> Kobayashi, *Historical Phonology of Old Indo-Aryan Consonants*, 2004: >>> 60 (?/s./ and /kh/ are often confused in some manuscripts and in later >>> Indo-Aryan languages?); cf. also *A Dictinaray of Old Marathi* (abbr. >>> DOM) dokha < Skt. do?a; vi?aya: DOM:/cf. vikhaya; a-nam?kha : DOM: >>> ?without blinking, vigilantly" < animi?a; agha-markha?a /Skt. aghamar??a >>> etc. etc. >>> >>> >>> Seishi Karashima >>> >>> >>> 2018-09-12 23:35 GMT+09:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info>: >>> >>>> Dear Jonathan, >>>> >>>> As Professor Girish Jha described, the change of ?a to kha, except >>>> in conjuncts with ?a-varga [?: ?????????], is prescribed by the Pr?ti??khya >>>> of the ?ukla-Yajurveda and seen in the recitation of this Veda till today. >>>> This also results in variation like p??a??a/p?kha??a. Certainly, a >>>> wide-spread dialectal feature. >>>> >>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>> Professor Emeritus >>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>> University of Michigan >>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:41 AM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael >>>>> Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in >>>>> various journals in the 1970s-1990s. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Arlo Griffiths >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>>>> Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM >>>>> *To:* jhakgirish >>>>> *Cc:* bvparishat at googlegroups.com; Indology >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha >>>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember >>>>> having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that >>>>> kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that >>>>> they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John >>>>> Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and >>>>> Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a >>>>> "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically >>>>> motivated fusion? >>>>> >>>>> Curious, Jonathan Silk >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear colleagues >>>>> Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the >>>>> meaning >>>>> daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. >>>>> Girish K.Jha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: jhakgirish >>>>> Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) >>>>> To: Indology , >>>>> bvparishat at googlegroups.com >>>>> Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha >>>>> >>>>> Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." >>>>> shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except >>>>> combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is >>>>> pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost >>>>> all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to >>>>> mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only >>>>> pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha >>>>> and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of >>>>> the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European >>>>> period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit >>>>> "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish >>>>> K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India >>>>> 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy >>>>> smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian < >>>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: >>>>> BHARATIYA VIDVAT Subject: Re: >>>>> {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, >>>>> 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi >>>>> wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in >>>>> Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? >>>>> (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is >>>>> common in Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by >>>>> shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? >>>>> ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received >>>>> this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> J. Silk >>>>> Leiden University >>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >>>>> , >>>>> Room 0.05b >>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>>>> The Netherlands >>>>> >>>>> copies of my publications may be found at >>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3 >> , >> Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: s.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 687427 bytes Desc: not available URL: From koenraad.elst at telenet.be Sat Sep 15 01:36:50 2018 From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 03:36:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) Message-ID: <941781324.1334767789.1536975410880.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be> Dear listfolk, The case of Pococke's work, for all its obsoleteness, illustrates how India remained the leading Homeland candidate *in Europe* well into the 19th century. This early OIT already existed even before the notion of an IE language family. Voltaire, Johann Herder, Immanuel Kant and others had already traced European culture to India before William Jones' 1786 message of an IE kinship. The key role of Sanskrit in this discovery, and the closeness of Sanskrit to the earliest versions of reconstructed ancestral PIE, made it logical to put the Homeland in India. The classical expression of this Indocentric phase was Friedrich Schlegel's book Sprache und Weisheit der Indier, 1808. But even August Schleicher's 1861 story in PIE about the sheep and the horses is still a lot more Sanskritic than later reconstructions of PIE. This needs to be said because AIT polemicists, both among professional linguists and among New-Rightist ideologues, always fulminate that the OIT is a "Hindutva concoction" (usually with the implication that "it is politically motivated, so we need not bother answering it"). This is factually incorrect, starting with the fact that VD Savarkar, launcher of the notion Hindutva in his 1924 book Hindutva, simply accepted the AIT, then clad in the aura of science and the prestige of European academe. What much is true is that the Hindutva current latched on to the OIT once KD Sethna revived it in the 1980s. This was after 150 years in which the AIT had played a prominent political role in anti-Hindu discourse, first in British colonial self-justification, then as a cornerstone of the Nazi worldview (contrary to 19th German Indomania, Hitler had a deep contempt for Hindus), and then, until now, as the alpha and omega of the Dalitist and Dravidianist movement and of the Christian Missionary claim on the Tribals. Even then, the Hindutva movement has never invested any effort in pro-OIT research but piggy-backs on the lone efforts of a handful of scholars. It has never even familiarized itself with the state of the art, which explains the uninformed nonsense whenever they open their mouths about the Homeland debate. Yesterday and today there was a conference of the Indogermanische Gesellschaft in Brussels. During the tea breaks, I discreetly asked around for opinions on the Urheimatfrage. Result was the same as I always find at such conferences: most professionals of IE linguistics have no real opinion on it. Either they are camp-followers of an Urheimat somewhere on the Wolga, simply because that it what was taught to them (thus even two very prominent scholars in the field), or they say that "we will never know", since the question has been around for so long and so many things have already been claimed. For most, it is not a live issue anymore, if only because any concern about origins is deemed quaint; this contrasts with the strong passions the question still provokes in India. It follows that only a small minority really champions the AIT and argues the AIT, not really many more (though with far more institutional support) than the active and competent OIT champions. The latter can be counted on the fingers of two hands, with the majority being Europeans. Anyway, to sum up: the Pococke case is a reminder that, while the term "OIT" only dates to the 1990s (presumably coined by Edwin Bryant), the OIT as an explanatory model dates to the 18th century, staying on deep into the 19th, and stems not from India but from Europe. Dr. Koenraad Elst (till recently Visiting Professor of Indo-European Studies at the Indus University, Ahmedabad, a job that by Indian law I could only get because there was no qualified native candidate in sight) Van: "Indology" Aan: "Martin Gansten" Cc: "Indology" Verzonden: Vrijdag 14 september 2018 08:34:20 Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) [ https://www.boxbe.com/overview ] This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (indology at list.indology.info) [ https://www.boxbe.com/popup?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxbe.com%2Fcleanup%3Fkey%3DqOv7pxac5jEjC90B7A%252BTflDVKgkGATQmL1NN8gwmNT4%253D%26token%3DGsii1BB83gc5HJq%252FN4cCrZf9LXfgWfz2LO2%252FKzBPNVBe9O%252B5uA8%252F19lD%252FKz5KpRNHzF%252B4kAc13Ku%252F05CHNAqUCOPR8pyRYLee9v0qKCpm%252Fof3dn1g1bzoTo5SUqjK2sA5Y3E%252BrBU7u6aGZT3zI0DaQ%253D%253D&tc_serial=43152234015&tc_rand=348773222&utm_source=stf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADD&utm_content=001 | Add cleanup rule ] | [ http://blog.boxbe.com/general/boxbe-automatic-cleanup?tc_serial=43152234015&tc_rand=348773222&utm_source=stf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADD&utm_content=001 | More info ] >From a quick google search "India OIT Pococke", his work appears well known and used in various writings related to the "Out of India" view. Best, Christophe Le 13 sept. 2018 ? 20:40, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < [ mailto:indology at list.indology.info | indology at list.indology.info ] > a ?crit : A colleague working on Hellenic religious reconstructionism recently came across an 1852 book by one Edward Pococke entitled India in Greece: Truth in Mythology (Containing the Sources of the Hellenic Race, the Colonization of Egypt and Palestine, the Wars of the Grand Lama and the Bud'histic Propaganda in Greece) . The book itself is [ https://archive.org/details/indiaingreeceort00poco | available ] on Archive, and there is some [ https://www.worldcat.org/wcidentities/lccn-no2007036969 | information ] on the author on WorldCat, but not much. Would anyone on this list happen to know more about Pococke and his work? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 04:41:53 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 22:41:53 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: <23f0b375cecf1c73d4329bc01777ee65@fabularasa.dk> Message-ID: v?can?rtha just means "for the purpose of reading out loud". In contrast to pa?han?rtha "for the purpose of reading to one's self". -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 06:37, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It has > been most helpful and much appreciated. > > For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch pointed me > to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates pa?han?rtha as > "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the context of a > colophon to a Jaina manuscript. > > Best, > Jacob > > Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: > > I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda manuscripts > > from the region of Gujarat. > > > > Madhav M. Deshpande > > Professor Emeritus > > Sanskrit and Linguistics > > University of Michigan > > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Jacob, > >> > >> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with > >> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. Scholars > >> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted > >> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both study > >> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). > >> > >> Best, > >> TWW > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear colleagues, > >>> > >>> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" and > >> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina manuscripts > >> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate that > >> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, and > >> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in > >> colophons to indicate as much. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Jacob > >>> > >>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen > >>> PhD Fellow (Indology) > >>> University of Copenhagen > >>> Denmark > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >> committee) > >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > >> options or unsubscribe) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >> committee) > >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > >> options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 04:51:12 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 18 22:51:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) In-Reply-To: <941781324.1334767789.1536975410880.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be> Message-ID: Regarding the first paragraph of Dr Elst's post, there's an elegant and profound book on this subject by Thomas Trautmann, Aryans and British India (1997). There's more to this topic than is suggested by Dr Elst's brief post, including the general early nineteenth-century belief in Mosaic time, and the sea-change in thought that followed the discoveries of Lyell on geology and Darwin on evolution that placed human history forever in a new chronological framework, dispelling older quests for an Edenic age in 4000 BC. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 19:37, koenraad.elst--- via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear listfolk, > > > The case of Pococke's work, for all its obsoleteness, illustrates how > India remained the leading Homeland candidate *in Europe* well into the > 19th century. This early OIT already existed even before the notion of an > IE language family. Voltaire, Johann Herder, Immanuel Kant and others had > already traced European culture to India before William Jones' 1786 message > of an IE kinship. The key role of Sanskrit in this discovery, and the > closeness of Sanskrit to the earliest versions of reconstructed ancestral > PIE, made it logical to put the Homeland in India. The classical expression > of this Indocentric phase was Friedrich Schlegel's book Sprache und > Weisheit der Indier, 1808. But even August Schleicher's 1861 story in PIE > about the sheep and the horses is still a lot more Sanskritic than later > reconstructions of PIE. > > This needs to be said because AIT polemicists, both among professional > linguists and among New-Rightist ideologues, always fulminate that the OIT > is a "Hindutva concoction" (usually with the implication that "it is > politically motivated, so we need not bother answering it"). This is > factually incorrect, starting with the fact that VD Savarkar, launcher of > the notion Hindutva in his 1924 book Hindutva, simply accepted the AIT, > then clad in the aura of science and the prestige of European academe. What > much is true is that the Hindutva current latched on to the OIT once KD > Sethna revived it in the 1980s. This was after 150 years in which the AIT > had played a prominent political role in anti-Hindu discourse, first in > British colonial self-justification, then as a cornerstone of the Nazi > worldview (contrary to 19th German Indomania, Hitler had a deep contempt > for Hindus), and then, until now, as the alpha and omega of the Dalitist > and Dravidianist movement and of the Christian Missionary claim on the > Tribals. Even then, the Hindutva movement has never invested any effort in > pro-OIT research but piggy-backs on the lone efforts of a handful of > scholars. It has never even familiarized itself with the state of the art, > which explains the uninformed nonsense whenever they open their mouths > about the Homeland debate. > > Yesterday and today there was a conference of the Indogermanische > Gesellschaft in Brussels. During the tea breaks, I discreetly asked around > for opinions on the Urheimatfrage. Result was the same as I always find at > such conferences: most professionals of IE linguistics have no real opinion > on it. Either they are camp-followers of an Urheimat somewhere on the > Wolga, simply because that it what was taught to them (thus even two very > prominent scholars in the field), or they say that "we will never know", > since the question has been around for so long and so many things have > already been claimed. For most, it is not a live issue anymore, if only > because any concern about origins is deemed quaint; this contrasts with the > strong passions the question still provokes in India. It follows that only > a small minority really champions the AIT and argues the AIT, not really > many more (though with far more institutional support) than the active and > competent OIT champions. The latter can be counted on the fingers of two > hands, with the majority being Europeans. > > Anyway, to sum up: the Pococke case is a reminder that, while the term > "OIT" only dates to the 1990s (presumably coined by Edwin Bryant), the OIT > as an explanatory model dates to the 18th century, staying on deep into the > 19th, and stems not from India but from Europe. > > > Dr. Koenraad Elst > > (till recently Visiting Professor of Indo-European Studies at the Indus > University, Ahmedabad, a job that by Indian law I could only get because > there was no qualified native candidate in sight) > > ------------------------------ > *Van: *"Indology" > *Aan: *"Martin Gansten" > *Cc: *"Indology" > *Verzonden: *Vrijdag 14 september 2018 08:34:20 > *Onderwerp: *Re: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th > century) > > [image: Boxbe] This message is eligible > for Automatic Cleanup! (indology at list.indology.info) Add cleanup rule > > | More info > > > From a quick google search "India OIT Pococke", > his work appears well known and used in various writings related to the > "Out of India" view. > Best, > Christophe > > Le 13 sept. 2018 ? 20:40, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > A colleague working on Hellenic religious reconstructionism recently came > across an 1852 book by one Edward Pococke entitled *India in Greece: > Truth in Mythology (Containing the Sources of the Hellenic Race, the > Colonization of Egypt and Palestine, the Wars of the Grand Lama and the > Bud'histic Propaganda in Greece)*. The book itself is available > on Archive, and > there is some information > on the author > on WorldCat, but not much. Would anyone on this list happen to know more > about Pococke and his work? > > Thanks in advance, > Martin Gansten > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at tending.to Sat Sep 15 02:34:57 2018 From: will at tending.to (Will Tuladhar Douglas) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 08:34:57 +0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sha and kha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik and all, That's a useful distinction, with the added provision that the reason may change back and forth over time. I would have to go dig quite a bit to prove this, but my impression is (and others on this list are better placed to comment) that (some) early Newar Buddhist manuscripts but also those edited or composed recently by scrupulous Newar Buddhist scholars keep the distinction, even where pronunciation contemporary with the manuscript shows a clear shift. Certainly some modern Newar Vajr?c?ryas are aware that the Tibetan pronunciation of various mantras, as broadcast on loudspeakers in public spaces, is ?wrong?, and the mispronunciation includes ?/kh shift terms like bhai?ajya or ?a?ak?ar? . This will be true even where, at other moments, pronunciation in their speech community shows elements of this same shift. Hope that's a help. Be well, ?WBTD. > On 15 Sep, 2018, at 02:15, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > I'm sorry to be lazy, but is it possible to summarize the scholarship on ?/kh alternation as stating that it is > due in some cases to orthographic practice, > in other cases to spoken dialectical variation, and > in yet other cases to the orthographic recording of a spoken form? > In other words, when we see ?/kh in manuscripts, it's not automatically possible to tell whether we are seeing a valid recording of phonetic /?/ or /kh/, or just a scribe writing kh when he sees ? in his exemplar or hears /?/ in the dictation he's following? So a critical editor should not automatically transcribe vikhaya or dokha as vi?aya and do?a? > > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity, > Department of History and Classics , > University of Alberta, Canada. > South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca > > > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 02:36, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > wrote: > My sincere thanks to all who helped me understand this phenomenon! > Jonathan > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Jonathan and colleagues, > > Concerning kh / ?, cf. Weber, ?ber ein zum Weissen Yajus geh?riges phonetisches Compendium, das Pratijn?s?tra 1872: 84~85; Pischel ? 265; Oertel, The Syntax of Cases in the Narrative and Descriptive Prose of the Br?hma?as, I. The Disjunct Use of Cases 1926: 56, ? 29, ex. 6; AiGr I, p. 136-137, Nachtr?ge p. 75; Vedic Variants II ? 295; Renou, Gr, p. 4; Allen, Phonetics in Ancient India 1953: 56; Bloch/Master p. 73; Handurukande 1967: xiii; Kuiper, Gop?lakelicandrik? 1987: 152~154 ( ?the old North indian tradition? ?a common interchange arising from R?jasth?n? speech?); BHSD, p. 532, ?e?ita (f?r ?ekhita); Masato Kobayashi, Historical Phonology of Old Indo-Aryan Consonants, 2004: 60 (?/s./ and /kh/ are often confused in some manuscripts and in later Indo-Aryan languages?); cf. also A Dictinaray of Old Marathi (abbr. DOM) dokha < Skt. do?a; vi?aya: DOM:/cf. vikhaya; a-nam?kha : DOM: ?without blinking, vigilantly" < animi?a; agha-markha?a /Skt. aghamar??a etc. etc. > > Seishi Karashima > > > 2018-09-12 23:35 GMT+09:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY >: > Dear Jonathan, > > As Professor Girish Jha described, the change of ?a to kha, except in conjuncts with ?a-varga [?: ?????????], is prescribed by the Pr?ti??khya of the ?ukla-Yajurveda and seen in the recitation of this Veda till today. This also results in variation like p??a??a/p?kha??a. Certainly, a wide-spread dialectal feature. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:41 AM Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > There is frequent reference to the same phenomenon in some of Michael Witzel's "Materials on Vedic ??kh?s", his series of articles published in various journals in the 1970s-1990s. > > Arlo Griffiths > > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY > > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:14 PM > To: jhakgirish > Cc: bvparishat at googlegroups.com ; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} sha and kha > > Dear Colleagues, > > I am very interested in this equivalence, because what I remember having learned (I am not sure now whether this is the right word) that kha/?a "confusion" was a characteristic of Nepalese manuscripts, and that they were to be considered the same (I perhaps learned this from John Brough's lengthy review of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Grammar and Dictionary, if memory serves...). But now it appears that this is not a "quirk" of Nepalese scribes but an instance of a wider phonologically motivated fusion? > > Curious, Jonathan Silk > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:51 AM, jhakgirish via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear colleagues > Sorry for the mistake due to haste.Both snushaa and snokhaa have the meaning > daughter-in-law and not grand daughter. > Girish K.Jha > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jhakgirish > > Date: 9/12/18 10:16 AM (GMT+05:30) > To: Indology >, bvparishat at googlegroups.com > Subject: {???????????????????} sha and kha > > Dear colleaguesThere is a sutra in Shukla yajuh praatishaakhya i.e." shah khah tumrite" It means retroflex sha is pronounced as kha except combined with the group t(tavarga).Hence in Shuklayajurveda it is pronouncedas kha. But in kashta,vishnu,etc. It is pronounced as sha.Almost all over India it is pronounced as kha in Shuklayajusha. I would like to mention that in our Mithila(North Bihar) retroflex sha is not only pronounced in Shuklayajusha but in ClassicalSanskrit too pronounced as kha and also inMaithili Language( a modern Indo-Aryan).It would not be out of the context what I would say.It has been coming from the Indo-European period.There is a Russian parallel "snokhaa" which resembles Sanskrit "snushaa" but both have the same meaning i.e.grand daughter.RegardsGirish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatna:India 800005(Residence-Kolkata:India)Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: V Subrahmanian > Date: 9/12/18 7:06 AM (GMT+05:30) To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT > Subject: Re: {???????????????????} Re: ???????????? -- ????? ???????? On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:23 AM Shashi Joshi > wrote:Interestingly this same ? ---> ? pronunciation transition is seen in Rajasthan. My grandfather would say words like???????? (????????? )????? (????? ???????)????? (????? in Hanuman Chalisa)??????? becoming ????? is common in Kannada poetry. ??? ?????? ?????Submitted by shreekant.mishrikoti on Tue, 06/01/2009 - 03:19(??? ???? ?????)??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????????? ???????? ???? ????????? ||?|-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "?????????? > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 06:57:02 2018 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 08:57:02 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] India in Greece by Edward Pococke (19th century) In-Reply-To: <283531BB-4053-4C84-A880-FF661853A29D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Dan Lusthaus and others for looking into this question. As I had suspected, it seems that Pococke was not an early Indologist, but rather what used to be called an 'antiquarian'. And yes, there was a 17th-century scholar, rather more well-known, of the same name. Best wishes, Martin Gansten Den 2018-09-13 kl. 22:05, skrev Dan Lusthaus: > Apologies for the continuing messages. A little further digging > reveals another book in which he took part, for which he edited the > second edition - /History of Greece, Macedonia and Syria /(London: 1852): > > https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=-BpCAAAAcAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=edward+pococke+india&ots=SMnATEGEtb&sig=Ke27VA0RmKzkSyBKQ-e5T9fYWgg#v=onepage&q=edward%20pococke%20india&f=false > > In a list of publications by the same publisher at the front of the > book, Pococke is mentioned as a co-author of a book titled /A History > of Greek Literature/. > > Dan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr Sat Sep 15 09:30:16 2018 From: georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr (Georges PINAULT) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 11:30:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indo-European graduate studies? Message-ID: <1705705800.2279.1537003816439.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f05> ? Dear colleagues, I may add that at the EPHE I give courses in Tocharian, Indo-iranian and Indo-european, plus reading of the Rigveda at the university Paris 3. Besides, I am responsible for the cursus/curriculum of graduate studies in IE linguistics and typology of languages at the EPHE ? (part of the Master EEMA). The EPHE provides a relatively large choice of courses in several IE and non-IE languages, done by scholars of international reputation. We welcome regularly foreign students preparing Master's degree and PhD. The information about the courses given in the two semesters of 2018-2019 is given on the web site of the EPHE (www.ephe.fr). Best regards, Georges Jean PINAULT, Directeur d'?tudes,? EPHE, Paris? Le 13 sept. 2018 ? 23:02, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: not to forget (through the same website www.ephe.fr):? langues et litt?ratures celtiques philologie italique? gallois linguistique gauloise histoire et philologie de la Scandinavie ancienne et m?di?vale (courses partly/mostly taught from indo-europeanist perspective) JH On 13 September 2018 at 22:47, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: In addition to the programs listed you may want to see the website of the Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes:? https://www.ephe.fr/ search under: indo-europ?en linguistique baltique et indo-europ?enne avestique v?dique ? JH ? On 13 September 2018 at 22:20, Matthew Scarborough via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Dominik, There is also a useful list of universities currently offering courses and options in Indo-European studies on the Indogermanische Gesellshaft / Society for Indo-European Studies website, with helpful web links to individual programmes. https://www.indogermanistik.org/indogermanistik/studium/lehrstuehle.html Which programmes may be considered 'top' probably depends a lot on what a given student wants to research given the field is broad and different departments have their own special areas of concentration. In the USA, UCLA, Harvard, and Cornell have very good generalist IE programmes. There are many more in Europe; the programmes in?Copenhagen, Cologne, Munich, Leiden, Jena, Z?rich, and?Vienna are all highly regarded (apologies to my colleagues if I've missed any other obvious programmes). Kind regards, Matthew ? On Thu, September 13, 2018 20:46, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote:> What are the top universities for graduate studies in IE at the moment?> I'm aware of this list> > _centres>> .>>> Many thanks> Dominik>>> --> Professor Dominik Wujastyk> ,>>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity> ,>>> Department of History and Classics>> ,> University of Alberta, Canada> .>>> South Asia at the U of A:>>> sas.ualberta.ca _______________________________________________> INDOLOGY mailing list> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing> committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list> options or unsubscribe)>--Dr. M. J. C. ScarboroughResearch Associate in Comparative Indo-European LinguisticsMax Planck Institute for the Science of Human HistoryDepartment of Linguistic and Cultural Evolutionhttp://www.shh.mpg.de/438157/cobldatabase???? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ???"Soviele Sprachen du sprichst, soviele Menschen du bist." _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ? -- Jan E.M. Houben Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris) Sciences historiques et philologiques? 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben ? _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Sat Sep 15 11:19:28 2018 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 13:19:28 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik, I agree with your translations, of course, but wonder how "v?can?rtha" might be understood in the context of a gy?n b?z? game chart which can hardly be read out meaningfully. Perhaps the implied meaning is that it was to be used for playing/instruction. Best, Jacob Dominik Wujastyk skrev den 2018-09-15 06:41: > v?can?rtha just means "for the purpose of reading out loud". In > contrast to pa?han?rtha "for the purpose of reading to one's self". > > -- > > Professor Dominik Wujastyk [1] > , > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > , > Department of History and Classics [2] > ,University of Alberta, Canada > . > > South Asia at the U of A: > sas.ualberta.ca [3] > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 06:37, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY > wrote: > >> Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It >> has >> been most helpful and much appreciated. >> >> For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch pointed >> me >> to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates >> pa?han?rtha as >> "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the >> context of a >> colophon to a Jaina manuscript. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: >>> I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda >> manuscripts >>> from the region of Gujarat. >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Jacob, >>>> >>>> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with >>>> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. >> Scholars >>>> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted >>>> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both study >>>> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> TWW >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" and >>>> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina manuscripts >>>> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate >> that >>>> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, >> and >>>> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in >>>> colophons to indicate as much. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Jacob >>>>> >>>>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >>>>> PhD Fellow (Indology) >>>>> University of Copenhagen >>>>> Denmark >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >> managing >>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >> managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>> options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk > [2] http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/ > [3] http://sas.ualberta.ca/ From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 13:31:13 2018 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 09:31:13 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari for Marathi Message-ID: Dear list members, Can someone tell me if in Marathi ? (? with dot underneath) is used for the letter transliterated as za . I've been told that in Marathi ? without dot underneath is used but the ISO transliteration guide has ? (? with dot underneath) for z . Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Sep 15 13:36:14 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 06:36:14 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari for Marathi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, Marathi does not use any letters like ? with an underdot. In Marathi, the written letters ?, ?, ?, ? have two pronunciations each, one set of pronunciations matching the Sanskrit palatal sounds, while the other set matching the dotted letters used in Hindi. While the native speakers have no problem with this, the non-native speakers often find it difficult to figure out which pronunciation is intended in a given word. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 6:32 AM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > > Can someone tell me if in Marathi ? (? with dot underneath) is used for > the letter transliterated as za . I've been told that in Marathi ? without > dot underneath is used but the ISO transliteration guide has ? (? with dot > underneath) for z . > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrivara at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 14:36:47 2018 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 20:06:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <95446FA1-31C0-4583-BA0C-383A2A9705C8@gmail.com> Dear colleagues, After hearing arguments of both sides on ?Sanskrit can or can not tackle the climate change?, we seem to be much worried about 'what Sanskrit can or can NOT do?, but not about ?how to tackle the climate change?. Anyway let me place my point here. In one of the postings I read a very careful reading of the phrase ?Sanskrit can tackle the climate change?. All statements need not be interpreted on their face-value. At the same time, without a meaningful purpose such lAkShaNika expressions are not worth to consider. In such case, we will have to analyse such statements carefully. As some opine it is true that ?Sanskrit is just a language as any other language?. So, as a language it can not bring any changes in external climate. However, the statement has something special to offer. That is - Sanskrit has some special characteristics which will help us to bring some changes in climate by bringing changes in human behaviour?..let us examine this how it is possible. Aspect one : Sanskrit, even as a language, employed in proper way, produces some purifying properties (Dhrma) in thoughts according to Patanjali. (See MahaBhashya). This ?PURE? Sanskrit employed in particular way by a team of people can tackle the climate change. Many a times it is tested and attested by conducting Varuna Japa (by chanting of Vedic hymns) (Nobody knows how is this possible) In India it is still practiced. (No matter even if Nonbeliveres may reject it, it happens and believed by people in India and many other places). I am not arguing in favour of this belief. But, academicians can not reject also without verifying if someone (tradition) says so. We should not in fact believe in either side without testing. Nor we can reject either side. Thus, ?Sanskrit can tackle the climate change? is still valid for some and invalid for some others. When we (including myself) do not possess the tools to explore such supernormal ideas, we can not say anything if we are honest. Logically also if someone does not have smelling sense, he can not deny the existence of the fragrance in the sandal wood. Second aspect : As someone said - In India the term ?Sanskrit? stands for ?the thought or knowledge that is embedded in sanskrit language?. With this notion, Sanskrit is always identified with its content for which it is regarded as special. Some languages are meant for some particular purpose. They will have certain impact on the mental behaviour. Sanskrit it is believed that it can influence the mind to develop certain thoughts, which will govern human behaviour towards the objects that we perceive. In this sense, Sanskrit can influence the thought by virtue of its content which will in turn can tackle the climate change through the human behaviour. Some factors are so powerful that can inevitably influence human behaviour without human interventions. In this sense, Sanskrit is said to be an instrument to tackle the climate change, though climate change is not directly achievable. Lastly : It is just a linguistic expression in secondary sense. Many a times we say ?This highway goes to Delhi?, which is ridiculous or illogical if we analyse it. For, way Never moves from one place to another. It helps other to move from one place to another. Notwithstanding this fact, the people say in this way. Nobody objects this. Similarly, Sanskrit helps us to tackle the climate change by its literature. The expression is to be taken in secondary sense. I don?t see any serious problem here unless we see it with particular colour. Warm regards, Shrinivasa Varakhedi > On 11-Sep-2018, at 10:44 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote: > > ?So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change.? > > Correct me if I?m wrong, but ?can help? is not the same as ?can tackle?. This means that only mankind can tackle climate change, not Sanskrit, pretty much as Henry David Thoreau?s writings or any other naturalist literature cannot per se tackle climate change, but only mankind can. Bottom line, either way, be it specific or general, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change. > > Again, am I right or not? > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > From: Nagaraj Paturi > Sent: 11 September 2018 18:06 > To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. > > -Prof. Antonia Ruppel > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 10:09 PM, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel?s answer: > ?What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. [?] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world,present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.? [emphasis mine] > Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in ?many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world?, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau?s books cannot either, because ?[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect?, and not simply read Sanskrit texts. > Again, am I wrong in this interpretation? > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > From: Nagaraj Paturi > > Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23 > To: Camillo Formigatti > > Cc: Indology > > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. > > can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something? > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > From: Nagaraj Paturi > > Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09 > To: Antonia Ruppel > > Cc: Camillo Formigatti >; Jonathan Silk >; Indology > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. > > We have an expression in Hindi, ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. > > You articulated it better than I would have. > > Thanks, > > Regards, > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel > wrote: > Dear Camillo, dear all, > > What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate. > > What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. > > Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives. > > So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. > > But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things). > > So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding. > > All the best, > Antonia > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dear Nagaraj and colleagues, > > I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can?t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not. > > What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings. > > Best wishes, > > Cammillo > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > From: Nagaraj Paturi > > Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04 > To: Jonathan Silk > > Cc: George Thompson >; Indology > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change > > > I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. > > -- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. > > Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. > > Expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? suit a ????????, a renounced ascetic , not a ?????? , a family person. Within the reference frame of ?????? , expressions such as ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. > > ----------------------------- > > Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. > > Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. > > --------------------------------- > > Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc. > > But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. > > ------------------------------ > > Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. > > ------------------------------- > > I for one, am not in a reference frame of ?? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose Sanskrit, India and Indian culture as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk > wrote: > I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). > I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!) > Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all. > > Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be, > > Jonathan > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > re JOYDEEP > > As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you. I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology. I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly na?ve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology. Have they read Joydeep's papers? > > Shame on you both! Please read some of Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us. > > best wishes, > > George Thompson > > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3 , Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > -- > Dr Antonia Ruppel > www.cambridge-sanskrit.org > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Sat Sep 15 15:41:31 2018 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 17:41:31 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: <2072536037.5784062.1537014169628@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8de84578ed811de8d84e6ff5f8582266@fabularasa.dk> Dear Sweta, Thank you for clarifying this. Your comments fit the context of my material nicely, and would indeed make very good sense. Best, Jacob Dr. Sweta Prajapati skrev den 2018-09-15 14:22: > Dear Jacob > > I think that Vacanartha and Pathanartha, both have same meaning. In > some cases Vacanartha means for group reading, to make it read, among > students or scholars. Vacanartha though it is derived from the root > vad, but the meaning that is accepted from Gujarati vacana means to > read and therefore such usage is found in Jain Gujarati manuscripts > colophon particularly when copied by Gujarati scribe in later period. > > While Pathanartha or Svapathanartha more specifically means for > reading by self and others or self reading. This is purely Sanskrit > usage. > > Sweta Prajapati > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android [2] > >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 4:50 pm, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> Dear Dominik, >> >> I agree with your translations, of course, but wonder how >> "v?can?rtha" >> might be understood in the context of a gy?n b?z? game chart >> which can >> hardly be read out meaningfully. Perhaps the implied meaning is that >> it >> was to be used for playing/instruction. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Dominik Wujastyk skrev den 2018-09-15 06:41: >>> v?can?rtha just means "for the purpose of reading out loud". In >>> contrast to pa?han?rtha "for the purpose of reading to one's >> self". >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk [1] >>> , >>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >>> , >>> Department of History and Classics [2] >>> ,University of Alberta, Canada >>> . >>> >>> South Asia at the U of A: >>> sas.ualberta.ca [3] >>> >>> On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 06:37, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It >>>> has >>>> been most helpful and much appreciated. >>>> >>>> For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch >> pointed >>>> me >>>> to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates >>>> pa?han?rtha as >>>> "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the >>>> context of a >>>> colophon to a Jaina manuscript. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Jacob >>>> >>>> Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: >>>>> I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda >>>> manuscripts >>>>> from the region of Gujarat. >>>>> >>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>>> Professor Emeritus >>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>>> University of Michigan >>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Jacob, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with >>>>>> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. >>>> Scholars >>>>>> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted >>>>>> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both >> study >>>>>> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> TWW >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" >> and >>>>>> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina >> manuscripts >>>>>> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate >>>> that >>>>>> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, >>>> and >>>>>> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in >>>>>> colophons to indicate as much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> Jacob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >>>>>>> PhD Fellow (Indology) >>>>>>> University of Copenhagen >>>>>>> Denmark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>> managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your >> list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>> managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your >> list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >> managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list >>>> options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk >>> [2] http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/ >>> [3] http://sas.ualberta.ca/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info > [2] > https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 16:54:44 2018 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 18:54:44 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: <8de84578ed811de8d84e6ff5f8582266@fabularasa.dk> Message-ID: <0a7c7ea1-8768-aa75-4b5b-6849fdeffb1d@gmail.com> If we speak of v?can? PWB has s.v. v?cana 2) f. ?: "Lektion, Kapitel" =Hemacandra's Pari?i??aparvan 9.67sq: One part of the Jaina canon (the D???iv?da) was lost. The sangha came together in Pataliputra and sent monks to Bhadrab?hu in Nepal asking him to come to Pataliputra and teach the D???iv?da. Bhadrab?hu was engaged in a religious vow and refused to join the meeting of monks. He offered to teach daily seven lessons to monks there in Nepal:? ... /sapta d?sy?mi v?can??/ (9.67d). One lesson after returning from th begging tour (/tatraika v?can?? d?sye bhik??cary?ta ?gata?/ (9.68ab). etc In the Buddhist Cullavagga? (GRETIL text) we read the colophon to a certain chapter of the Cullavagga: .../mah?vih?rav?s?na? v?can?/? "[this is] the chapter (/v?can?/) from the residents of the Mahavihara...". Best Heiner Am 15.09.2018 um 17:41 schrieb Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY: > Dear Sweta, > > Thank you for clarifying this. Your comments fit the context of my > material nicely, and would indeed make very good sense. > > Best, > Jacob > > Dr. Sweta Prajapati skrev den 2018-09-15 14:22: >> Dear Jacob >> >> I think that Vacanartha and Pathanartha, both have same meaning. In >> some cases Vacanartha means for group reading, to make it read, among >> students or scholars. Vacanartha though it is derived from the root >> vad, but the meaning that is accepted from Gujarati vacana means to >> read and therefore such usage is found in Jain Gujarati manuscripts >> colophon particularly when copied by Gujarati scribe in later period. >> >> While Pathanartha or Svapathanartha more specifically means for >> reading by self and others or self reading. This is purely Sanskrit >> usage. >> >> Sweta Prajapati >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android [2] >> >>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 4:50 pm, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >>> wrote: >>> Dear Dominik, >>> >>> I agree with your translations, of course, but wonder how >>> "v?can?rtha" >>> might be understood in the context of a gy?n b?z? game chart >>> which can >>> hardly be read out meaningfully. Perhaps the implied meaning is that >>> it >>> was to be used for playing/instruction. >>> >>> Best, >>> Jacob >>> >>> Dominik Wujastyk skrev den 2018-09-15 06:41: >>>> v?can?rtha just means "for the purpose of reading out loud".? In >>>> contrast to pa?han?rtha "for the purpose of reading to one's >>> self". >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk [1] >>>> , >>>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >>>> , >>>> Department of History and Classics [2] >>>> ,University of Alberta, Canada >>>> . >>>> >>>> South Asia at the U of A: >>>> sas.ualberta.ca [3] >>>> >>>> On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 06:37, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It >>>>> has >>>>> been most helpful and much appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch >>> pointed >>>>> me >>>>> to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates >>>>> pa?han?rtha as >>>>> "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the >>>>> context of a >>>>> colophon to a Jaina manuscript. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Jacob >>>>> >>>>> Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: >>>>>> I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda >>>>> manuscripts >>>>>> from the region of Gujarat. >>>>>> >>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>>>> Professor Emeritus >>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>>>> University of Michigan >>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Jacob, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with >>>>>>> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. >>>>> Scholars >>>>>>> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted >>>>>>> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both >>> study >>>>>>> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> TWW >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" >>> and >>>>>>> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina >>> manuscripts >>>>>>> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate >>>>> that >>>>>>> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, >>>>> and >>>>>>> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in >>>>>>> colophons to indicate as much. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>> Jacob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >>>>>>>> PhD Fellow (Indology) >>>>>>>> University of Copenhagen >>>>>>>> Denmark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>> managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your >>> list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>> managing >>>>>>> committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your >>> list >>>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>> managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list >>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> Links: >>>> ------ >>>> [1] http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk >>>> [2] http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/ >>>> [3] http://sas.ualberta.ca/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list >>> options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://listinfo.indology.info >> [2] >> https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) -- www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 21:45:23 2018 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 18 17:45:23 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari for Marathi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to Madhav Deshpande for answering offlist that Marathi doesn't use nukt? (the underneath dots in devanagari) . Does that mean only Hindi uses nukt? , also how modern is the use of nukt? in devanagari and related scripts ? Harry Spier On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > Can someone tell me if in Marathi ? (? with dot underneath) is used for > the letter transliterated as za . I've been told that in Marathi ? without > dot underneath is used but the ISO transliteration guide has ? (? with dot > underneath) for z . > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Sun Sep 16 10:12:10 2018 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 18 12:12:10 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: <0a7c7ea1-8768-aa75-4b5b-6849fdeffb1d@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here is an example of a colophon from a 19th-century Jaina gy?n b?z? from western India: ???????? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????? [written for the purpose of "v?cana/v?can?" by lay follower Keso R??mj? (under the instruction of?) Pa??it Lak?min? Je?h] The whole thing is written in Devan?gar? except for the "j?" which is written in Gujarati script. Following Sweta Prajapati's suggestion, I checked the meaning of "v?cana" (neuter substantive) and "v??cavu?" (verb) in Mehta & Mehta's "Modern Gujarati-English Dictionary" from 1925 (the only one currently available to me). Both indicate "reading, perusal, study" as the main meanings. However, based on the examples provided by Rolf Heinrich Koch, I wonder whether v?can?rtha could also be understood in the sense that the drawing of the gy?n b?z? was assigned as a lesson. Many thanks for your continued help in this matter. Kind regards, Jacob Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY skrev den 2018-09-15 18:54: > If we speak of v?can? PWB has s.v. v?cana 2) f. ?: "Lektion, > Kapitel" =Hemacandra's Pari?i??aparvan 9.67sq: > > One part of the Jaina canon (the D???iv?da) was lost. The > sangha came together in Pataliputra and sent monks to Bhadrab?hu in > Nepal asking him to come to Pataliputra and teach the > D???iv?da. Bhadrab?hu was engaged in a religious vow and > refused to join the meeting of monks. He offered to teach daily seven > lessons to monks there in Nepal: ... _sapta d?sy?mi v?can??_ > (9.67d). > One lesson after returning from th begging tour (_tatraika v?can?? > d?sye bhik??cary?ta ?gata?_ (9.68ab). > etc > > In the Buddhist Cullavagga (GRETIL text) we read the colophon to a > certain chapter of the Cullavagga: > ..._mah?vih?rav?s?na? v?can?_ "[this is] the chapter > (_v?can?_) from the residents of the Mahavihara...". > > Best > Heiner > > Am 15.09.2018 um 17:41 schrieb Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY: > >> Dear Sweta, >> >> Thank you for clarifying this. Your comments fit the context of my >> material nicely, and would indeed make very good sense. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Dr. Sweta Prajapati skrev den 2018-09-15 14:22: >> Dear Jacob >> >> I think that Vacanartha and Pathanartha, both have same meaning. In >> some cases Vacanartha means for group reading, to make it read, >> among >> students or scholars. Vacanartha though it is derived from the root >> vad, but the meaning that is accepted from Gujarati vacana means to >> read and therefore such usage is found in Jain Gujarati manuscripts >> colophon particularly when copied by Gujarati scribe in later >> period. >> >> While Pathanartha or Svapathanartha more specifically means for >> reading by self and others or self reading. This is purely Sanskrit >> usage. >> >> Sweta Prajapati >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android [2] >> >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 4:50 pm, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> Dear Dominik, >> >> I agree with your translations, of course, but wonder how >> "v?can?rtha" >> might be understood in the context of a gy?n b?z? game chart >> which can >> hardly be read out meaningfully. Perhaps the implied meaning is that >> >> it >> was to be used for playing/instruction. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Dominik Wujastyk skrev den 2018-09-15 06:41: >> v?can?rtha just means "for the purpose of reading out loud". In >> contrast to pa?han?rtha "for the purpose of reading to one's >> self". >> >> -- >> >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk [1] >> , >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> Department of History and Classics [2] >> ,University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> sas.ualberta.ca [3] >> >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 06:37, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It >> has >> been most helpful and much appreciated. >> >> For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch > pointed > >> me >> to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates >> pa?han?rtha as >> "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the >> context of a >> colophon to a Jaina manuscript. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: >> I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda >> manuscripts >> from the region of Gujarat. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Dear Jacob, >> >> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with >> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. > Scholars > >>> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted >>> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both > study > >> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). >> >> Best, >> TWW >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" > and > >> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina > manuscripts > >> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate > that > >>> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, > and > >> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in >> colophons to indicate as much. >> >> Kind regards, >> Jacob >> >> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >> PhD Fellow (Indology) >> University of Copenhagen >> Denmark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing > >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your > list > >> options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing > >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your > list > >> options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing > >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list >>> options or unsubscribe) >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk >> [2] http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/ >> [3] http://sas.ualberta.ca/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info > [2] > https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > > -- > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com [1] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From jacob at fabularasa.dk Sun Sep 16 10:59:23 2018 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 18 12:59:23 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Pa=E1=B9=ADhan=C4=81rtha_and_v=C4=81can=C4=81rtha?= In-Reply-To: <0a7c7ea1-8768-aa75-4b5b-6849fdeffb1d@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, how I MEANT to translate was: "Written by Pa??it Lak?min (in the month of) Je?h for the purpose of the "v?cana/v?can?" of lay follower Keso R??mj?." Best, Jacob ----- Here is an example of a colophon from a 19th-century Jaina gy?n b?z? from western India: ???????? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????????? [written for the purpose of "v?cana/v?can?" by lay follower Keso R??mj? (under the instruction of?) Pa??it Lak?min? Je?h] The whole thing is written in Devan?gar? except for the "j?" which is written in Gujarati script. Following Sweta Prajapati's suggestion, I checked the meaning of "v?cana" (neuter substantive) and "v??cavu?" (verb) in Mehta & Mehta's "Modern Gujarati-English Dictionary" from 1925 (the only one currently available to me). Both indicate "reading, perusal, study" as the main meanings. However, based on the examples provided by Rolf Heinrich Koch, I wonder whether v?can?rtha could also be understood in the sense that the drawing of the gy?n b?z? was assigned as a lesson. Many thanks for your continued help in this matter. Kind regards, Jacob Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY skrev den 2018-09-15 18:54: > If we speak of v?can? PWB has s.v. v?cana 2) f. ?: "Lektion, > Kapitel" =Hemacandra's Pari?i??aparvan 9.67sq: > > One part of the Jaina canon (the D???iv?da) was lost. The > sangha came together in Pataliputra and sent monks to Bhadrab?hu in > Nepal asking him to come to Pataliputra and teach the > D???iv?da. Bhadrab?hu was engaged in a religious vow and > refused to join the meeting of monks. He offered to teach daily seven > lessons to monks there in Nepal: ... _sapta d?sy?mi v?can??_ > (9.67d). > One lesson after returning from th begging tour (_tatraika v?can?? > d?sye bhik??cary?ta ?gata?_ (9.68ab). > etc > > In the Buddhist Cullavagga (GRETIL text) we read the colophon to a > certain chapter of the Cullavagga: > ..._mah?vih?rav?s?na? v?can?_ "[this is] the chapter > (_v?can?_) from the residents of the Mahavihara...". > > Best > Heiner > > Am 15.09.2018 um 17:41 schrieb Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY: > >> Dear Sweta, >> >> Thank you for clarifying this. Your comments fit the context of my >> material nicely, and would indeed make very good sense. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Dr. Sweta Prajapati skrev den 2018-09-15 14:22: >> Dear Jacob >> >> I think that Vacanartha and Pathanartha, both have same meaning. In >> some cases Vacanartha means for group reading, to make it read, >> among >> students or scholars. Vacanartha though it is derived from the root >> vad, but the meaning that is accepted from Gujarati vacana means to >> read and therefore such usage is found in Jain Gujarati manuscripts >> colophon particularly when copied by Gujarati scribe in later >> period. >> >> While Pathanartha or Svapathanartha more specifically means for >> reading by self and others or self reading. This is purely Sanskrit >> usage. >> >> Sweta Prajapati >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android [2] >> >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 4:50 pm, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> Dear Dominik, >> >> I agree with your translations, of course, but wonder how >> "v?can?rtha" >> might be understood in the context of a gy?n b?z? game chart >> which can >> hardly be read out meaningfully. Perhaps the implied meaning is that >> >> it >> was to be used for playing/instruction. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Dominik Wujastyk skrev den 2018-09-15 06:41: >> v?can?rtha just means "for the purpose of reading out loud". In >> contrast to pa?han?rtha "for the purpose of reading to one's >> self". >> >> -- >> >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk [1] >> , >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> , >> Department of History and Classics [2] >> ,University of Alberta, Canada >> . >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> sas.ualberta.ca [3] >> >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 06:37, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Thanks to everybody who responded to my query on and off list. It >> has >> been most helpful and much appreciated. >> >> For those of you who might be interested, Rolf Heinrich Koch > pointed > >> me >> to a footnote by Phyllis Granoff wherein she translates >> pa?han?rtha as >> "private study" and v?can?rtha as "public preaching" in the >> context of a >> colophon to a Jaina manuscript. >> >> Best, >> Jacob >> >> Madhav Deshpande skrev den 2018-09-11 19:42: >> I have seen these terms in the colophons of Atharvaveda >> manuscripts >> from the region of Gujarat. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:32 AM Tyler Williams via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Dear Jacob, >> >> This is a common feature in colophons and is often found with >> genitives to indicate for whom the manuscript was copied. > Scholars > >>> of Jainism would know better than I any particular connoted >>> performance contexts, but in general this can mean for both > study > >> and recitation (at least in the case of non-Jain manuscripts). >> >> Best, >> TWW >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 11-Sep-2018, at 4:51 PM, Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I have recently come across the expressions "pa?han?rtha" > and > >> "v?can?rtha" at the end of a few colophons in Jaina > manuscripts > >> and drawings/diagrams. I assume that the expressions indicate > that > >>> the text/drawing in question was copied for purposes of study, > and > >> would be interested to know if they are conventionally used in >> colophons to indicate as much. >> >> Kind regards, >> Jacob >> >> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen >> PhD Fellow (Indology) >> University of Copenhagen >> Denmark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing > >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your > list > >> options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing > >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your > list > >> options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing > >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list >>> options or unsubscribe) >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk >> [2] http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/ >> [3] http://sas.ualberta.ca/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info [1](where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://listinfo.indology.info > [2] > https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > > -- > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com [1] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From james.hartzell at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 16:55:11 2018 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 18 18:55:11 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] burning substance Message-ID: Hi there Could anyone point me to use of the term *dahyam?na vastu* in the Vedic literature? It shows up in tantric material discussing the use of mantras in the internal fire of the yogi (with some Vedic ritual comparisons) and it's not perfectly clear to me whether the term is intended to refer to the mantras or the fire itself. Cheers James -- James Hartzell, PhD Basque Center on Cognition, Brain and Language (BCBL), Donostia, Spain Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 02:27:16 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 18 20:27:16 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for commentaries on YS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Philipp, Thank you very much for your clarifications. They are very helpful. Always glad to learn more about these texts from your expert knowledge of them. I understand from your writings that all printed editions of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra transmit the vulgate or "northern version." The "southern version" is at present only accessible by way of your critical edition of the first chapter, and in part by way of the Vivara?a by ?a?kara. You also point out that the 1917 revised edition in the Bombay Sanskrit Series gives some variant readings in the footnotes. The 1892 first edition that I posted does not. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:57 AM Philipp Maas wrote: > Dear David, > > > > In your mail to the Indology list at 2 September you referred to the > ?nand??rama Series edition of the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra* (i.e., the > Yogas?tra together with the so-called Yogabh??ya) by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e > as being ?in effect a critical edition?, since it is based on twelve > manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes. I fully agree with you > that this edition is useful since it presents a fairly intelligible > Sanskrit text and some variants from manuscripts and printed editions in > footnotes. But the edition is still is not a critical edition in the modern > academic usage of the term ?critical edition?. K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e did > not explain the method he used to generate the main text of his edition, > and he was apparently completely unaware of the fact that the different > text versions transmitted in the four manuscript and four printed edition > that he used for the PY? are the result of changes that occurred during > the history of the transmission of the PY? in writing. For a more > comprehensive characterization of this edition, see the introduction to my > critical edition of the Sam?dhip?da of the PY? (Maas 2006 > , > to which you kindly referred) on p. xxiii? xxiv. In any case, all > manuscripts and printed editions at ?g??e's disposal transmit a fairly > similar text, i.e. the vulgate version of the PY?. Not a single witness > used by ?g??e transmits the "Southern Version" of the PY? which > frequenlty has a better text quality than the vulgate (see see my article > ?On the written transmission of the P?ta?jalayoga??stra? here > > ). > > > > The edition of the PY? by Vimala Kanartaka (1992, No. 21 in Maas 2006) > that you mention, is also not a critical edition in any technical sense of > the word. The main text in Karnataka?s edition is virtually a reproduction > of the main text in the edition by N?r?ya?ami?ra (Varanasi 1971, no. 15. in > Maas 2006) with only 11 deviation in the first chapter. As a comparison of > the variant reading that Kanartaka reported in the footnotes of her edition > with the original witnesses shows, her apparatus is not very reliable (see > Maas 2006: xxxi f.). > > > > With best wishes, > > > > Philipp > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > > Am So., 2. Sep. 2018 um 21:01 Uhr schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via > INDOLOGY : > >> Dear Dhaval Patel, >> >> If you just want to get an idea of what is in the various commentaries, >> any edition will do. But if you need to do serious research, commentaries >> that are well edited and accurately printed are necessary. In the case of >> the Vy?sa commentary, several editions are available. About the early >> editions, here is what James Haughton Woods wrote in the Preface to his >> 1914 English translation (p. xi): >> >> "The most accessible and the most carefully elaborated of these books is >> the one published in the ?nand??rama Series and edited by K???n?tha Sh? >> str? ?g??e. Variants from twelve manuscripts, mostly southern, are >> printed at the foot of each page; and Bhojadeva's V?tti is appended; >> also the text of the s?tras by itself and an index thereto. Another >> edition, in the Bombay Sanskrit Series, by R?jar?m Sh?str? Bodas, is >> also an excellent piece of work. I have, however, made use of the edition >> by Sv?mi B?lar?ma (Calcutta, Sa?vat 1947, A.D. 1890; reprinted in >> Benares A.D. 1908) because it is based on northern manuscripts and because >> of the valuable notes in the editor's *?ippa?a*." >> >> The edition by Sv?mi B?lar?ma was very hard to find. I finally had a >> friend make a photocopy of the 1908 reprint at the Harvard University >> Library, apparently the copy previously used by Woods. The ?nand??rama >> Series edition has been reprinted several times, but the reprints are >> re-typeset, introducing new typographical errors. So I photocopied the >> original 1904 edition at the University of Chicago Library. The original >> 1892 Bombay Sanskrit Series edition was also hard to find in North America, >> but I was able to photocopy it from the American Oriental Society Library >> at the Yale University Library. Scans of all three are posted here, along >> with a few other commentaries on the Yogas?tras: >> http://prajnaquest.fr/blog/sanskrit-texts-3/sanskrit-hindu-texts/ >> >> Since the ?nand??rama Series edition was edited by K???n?tha ??str? ?g??e >> from twelve manuscripts, giving variant readings in footnotes, it is in >> effect a critical edition. However, the first critical edition that was >> called such is that by Vimala Karnatak, *P?ta?jala-Yoga-Dar?anam*, four >> volumes, Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University & Ratna Publications, 1992. It >> includes the commentaries by Vy?sa, V?caspati-mi?ra, and Vij??na-bhik?u. >> It also includes her own Hindi exposition. >> >> More recently the first volume of a critical edition by Philipp Maas was >> published: *Sam?dhip?da: das erste Kapitel des P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * >> zum ersten Mal kritish ediert = The first chapter of the >> P?ta?jalayoga??stra* * for the first time critically edited*, Aachen: >> Shaker, 2006. This is a very thorough critical edition of the Yogas?tras >> and Vy?sa's commentary, together forming the *P?ta?jalayoga??stra*, >> using all available sources. We anxiously await further volumes of this >> definitive critical edition. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Mon Sep 17 10:23:36 2018 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 18 12:23:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] burning substance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear James, I am almost sure that this term is not used in the early Veda (up to Brahmanas and early Upanisads). However the concept of "burning substance" which, to some extent, coulc be seen as on of the roots of the later yogic experience can be found. It is the influence of Soma which - as it seems from the Rgvedic material - gave the strong experience of heat to its drinker. And Soma itself was conceived as "burning substance", or rather "burning fluid". If you need more references, you are most welcomed to write to me directly. Regards, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz niedz., 16 wrz 2018 o 18:56 James Hartzell via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Hi there > > Could anyone point me to use of the term *dahyam?na vastu* in the Vedic > literature? It shows up in tantric material discussing the use of mantras > in the internal fire of the yogi (with some Vedic ritual comparisons) and > it's not perfectly clear to me whether the term is intended to refer to the > mantras or the fire itself. > > Cheers > James > > -- > James Hartzell, PhD > Basque Center on Cognition, Brain and Language (BCBL), Donostia, Spain > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 11:00:12 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 18 16:30:12 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] burning substance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ????????????? ????????????????? ???????? ?? ??????? ?? ??????????? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ???? ???? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????????? ??????????????????????? ????? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????????? ? ??????? ????????? ???????????? ?????? ? *?????? ??????????????? ??????? ???* ? ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????: ???? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????????????????? ??????? ?????????? ?? ? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????: ? ??????????? ???? ???????????? ????????????? ???????????????? ????? ???????????? ? * ??? ???????? ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????????? ???? ????????????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????????????? ? ????????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ? ???? ????? ?????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ?????* ???????????????????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ???? ????????????????? ???? ?????* ????????? *??????????? ??????????? ??????? ???????? *????????????? ??????? *? ???????????????? *???? ????????????? ? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????? ??????????*? ? ?????? ? ???? ? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ??????? ? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ? ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear James, > > I am almost sure that this term is not used in the early Veda (up to > Brahmanas and early Upanisads). However the concept of "burning substance" > which, to some extent, coulc be seen as on of the roots of the later yogic > experience can be found. It is the influence of Soma which - as it seems > from the Rgvedic material - gave the strong experience of heat to its > drinker. And Soma itself was conceived as "burning substance", or rather > "burning fluid". If you need more references, you are most welcomed to > write to me directly. > > Regards, > > Joanna > > --- > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > 00-927 Warszawa > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > niedz., 16 wrz 2018 o 18:56 James Hartzell via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Hi there >> >> Could anyone point me to use of the term *dahyam?na vastu* in the Vedic >> literature? It shows up in tantric material discussing the use of mantras >> in the internal fire of the yogi (with some Vedic ritual comparisons) and >> it's not perfectly clear to me whether the term is intended to refer to the >> mantras or the fire itself. >> >> Cheers >> James >> >> -- >> James Hartzell, PhD >> Basque Center on Cognition, Brain and Language (BCBL), Donostia, Spain >> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy >> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 11:02:25 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 18 16:32:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] burning substance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ??? *????????? *?????? ????????? ??????????? ? ?????????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ? ??-??? Gita 2018-09-17 16:30 GMT+05:30 Nagaraj Paturi : > ????????????? > ????????????????? ???????? ?? ??????? ?? > ??????????? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ???? > ???? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????????? > ??????????????????????? ????? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????????? ? > ??????? ????????? ???????????? ?????? ? *?????? ??????????????? ??????? > ???* ? ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????: ???? ????????? ?????? ?????? > ??????? ???? ???? ????????????????? > ??????? ?????????? ?? ? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????: ? > ??????????? ???? ???????????? ????????????? ???????????????? ????? > ???????????? ? * ??? ???????? ????????????? ??????????? ???????? > ????????????? ???? ????????????? ????? ?????? ?????????? > ??????????????????? ? ????????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????? ???????????? > ? ???? ????? ?????????????????????????????????? > ???????????????????????????????? ?????* > ???????????????????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ???? ????????????????? > ???? ?????* ????????? *??????????? ??????????? ??????? ???????? *????????????? > ??????? *? ???????????????? *???? ????????????? ? ?????? ??????? ????? > ???????? ??????????*? ? ?????? ? ???? ? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? > ??????? ? > ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????? > ?? ??? ??? ???? > ???????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ? > ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? > > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear James, >> >> I am almost sure that this term is not used in the early Veda (up to >> Brahmanas and early Upanisads). However the concept of "burning substance" >> which, to some extent, coulc be seen as on of the roots of the later yogic >> experience can be found. It is the influence of Soma which - as it seems >> from the Rgvedic material - gave the strong experience of heat to its >> drinker. And Soma itself was conceived as "burning substance", or rather >> "burning fluid". If you need more references, you are most welcomed to >> write to me directly. >> >> Regards, >> >> Joanna >> >> --- >> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia >> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 >> 00-927 Warszawa >> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >> >> >> niedz., 16 wrz 2018 o 18:56 James Hartzell via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >> >>> Hi there >>> >>> Could anyone point me to use of the term *dahyam?na vastu* in the Vedic >>> literature? It shows up in tantric material discussing the use of mantras >>> in the internal fire of the yogi (with some Vedic ritual comparisons) and >>> it's not perfectly clear to me whether the term is intended to refer to the >>> mantras or the fire itself. >>> >>> Cheers >>> James >>> >>> -- >>> James Hartzell, PhD >>> Basque Center on Cognition, Brain and Language (BCBL), Donostia, Spain >>> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy >>> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Marion.Rastelli at oeaw.ac.at Tue Sep 18 12:38:55 2018 From: Marion.Rastelli at oeaw.ac.at (Rastelli, Marion) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 12:38:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for pdf Message-ID: <52f0757446e945e3a2e8fa7d99296f4a@oeaw.ac.at> Dear list members, Would anyone have a pdf of this paper: Vasudha Narayanan, Vaishnava Traditions in Cambodia. In: Festschrift for Dennis Hudson. Journal of Vaishnava Studies 11/1 (September 2002), 153-187. This journal is not available in Austria. Best regards, Marion Rastelli Mag.Dr. Marion Rastelli Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstra?e 11-13 1020 Vienna Austria Phone +43 1 51581 6417 Fax +43 1 51581 6410 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Sep 18 13:20:18 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 06:20:18 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKjgpL/gpLfgpY3gpJXgpL/gpJrgpKg6?= Message-ID: On the analogy of ??????????, my new word today is ????????. Since the kitchen counters are being installed today in our house, all kitchen appliances have been disconnected, and the kitchen is unusable for a few days. My vigrahav?kya for this new compound is: ?????????: ???????. ??? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 17:01:55 2018 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 17:01:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari for Marathi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, No, the underdot is also used for instance in Bengali and Oriya script. Its used as a diacritical marker is, however, much older than the development of these modern script forms. It is found, i.a., in the Pyu script that was in use in Burma from about the 6th or 7th century onwards to mark some kind of consonantal phonetic feature. See ?3.4.4 in ?Studies in Pyu Epigraphy, I: State of the Field, Edition and Analysis of the Kan Wet Khaung Mound Inscription, and Inventory of the Corpus,? BEFEO 103 (2017). Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths EFEO ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Harry Spier via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 9:45 PM To: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Devanagari for Marathi Thank you to Madhav Deshpande for answering offlist that Marathi doesn't use nukt? (the underneath dots in devanagari) . Does that mean only Hindi uses nukt? , also how modern is the use of nukt? in devanagari and related scripts ? Harry Spier On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Harry Spier > wrote: Dear list members, Can someone tell me if in Marathi ? (? with dot underneath) is used for the letter transliterated as za . I've been told that in Marathi ? without dot underneath is used but the ISO transliteration guide has ? (? with dot underneath) for z . Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Sep 19 00:48:21 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 17:48:21 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0g4KSo4KS/4KS34KWN4KSV4KS/4KSa4KSoOg==?= In-Reply-To: <1f371b61-8ceb-2f9f-3d49-014e955392dc@stat.fsu.edu> Message-ID: Love it! The NI?kitchens go to Subway for food. Madhav On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 4:52 PM Jayaram Sethuraman wrote: > Madhav: Here is take on your ????????. Sethuraman > > On 9/18/2018 9:20 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > On the analogy of ??????????, my new word today is ????????. Since the > kitchen counters are being installed today in our house, all kitchen > appliances have been disconnected, and the kitchen is unusable for a few > days. My vigrahav?kya for this new compound is: ?????????: ???????. ??? > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From revolvingsound at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 00:53:47 2018 From: revolvingsound at gmail.com (Brian Campbell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 17:53:47 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M.P. Pandit's citation of the Brihani Tantra?/Sastra?/Sutra? Message-ID: In M.P. Pandit's "Bases of Tantra Sadhana" (page 32-33), he cites a text, the "Brihani," which I am unfamiliar with and haven't been able to find a single reference to anywhere else. Hoping someone in the list might be able to shed some light on it. Many thanks. His quote is as follows: "Truth has no gender, but it is spoken of in terms of gender." -Brihani attached is a photo of the page Best, Brian Campbell Ph.D. Student Graduate Group for the Study of Religion University of California, Davis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 01:18:08 2018 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 21:18:08 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M.P. Pandit's citation of the Brihani Tantra?/Sastra?/Sutra? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Brian, There is a b?hannilatantra in the Muktabodha digital library. http://muktabodha.org/digital-library/ Harry Spier On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Brian Campbell via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > In M.P. Pandit's "Bases of Tantra Sadhana" (page 32-33), he cites a text, > the "Brihani," which I am unfamiliar with and haven't been able to find a > single reference to anywhere else. Hoping someone in the list might be able > to shed some light on it. Many thanks. > > His quote is as follows: > > "Truth has no gender, but it is spoken of in terms of gender." -Brihani > > attached is a photo of the page > > Best, > > Brian Campbell > Ph.D. Student > Graduate Group for the Study of Religion > University of California, Davis > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From revolvingsound at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 01:36:52 2018 From: revolvingsound at gmail.com (Brian Campbell) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 18:36:52 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] M.P. Pandit's citation of the Brihani Tantra?/Sastra?/Sutra? Message-ID: Thanks to Madhav and Harry for the quick responses and helpful links. On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear Brian, > > There is a b?hannilatantra in the Muktabodha digital library. > http://muktabodha.org/digital-library/ > > Harry Spier > > > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Brian Campbell via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> In M.P. Pandit's "Bases of Tantra Sadhana" (page 32-33), he cites a text, >> the "Brihani," which I am unfamiliar with and haven't been able to find a >> single reference to anywhere else. Hoping someone in the list might be able >> to shed some light on it. Many thanks. >> >> His quote is as follows: >> >> "Truth has no gender, but it is spoken of in terms of gender." -Brihani >> >> attached is a photo of the page >> >> Best, >> >> Brian Campbell >> Ph.D. Student >> Graduate Group for the Study of Religion >> University of California, Davis >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 01:59:56 2018 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 21:59:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] pratyagabhinnasya Message-ID: Dear list members, The third verse of the Dak?i??m?rtistotram is: yasya sphura?a? sad?tmakamasatkalp?rthagam bh?sate s?k??ttattvamas?ti vedavacas? yo bodhayaty??rit?n | yats?k??tkara??dbhavenna punar?v?ttirbhav?mbhonidhau tasmai ?r?gurum?rtaye nama ida? ?r?dak?i??m?rtaye || 3 || Svayampraka?a's gloss on the first word is: 'yasya' pratyagabhinnasya prame?varasya svar?pabh?ta? I'm unclear how to interpret pratyagabhinnasya . Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bimahony at davidson.edu Wed Sep 19 02:30:33 2018 From: bimahony at davidson.edu (Mahony, Bill) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 18 02:30:33 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0g4KSo4KS/4KS34KWN4KSV4KS/4KSa4KSoOg==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr Deshpande, I love it, too! My wife and I have been ???????? for several weeks now while carpenters perform their arts (and might it rather be spelled ????????? in order to meet the original English pronunciaton?) We do look forward being ?????? in order to enjoy to our culinary arts. ??? ????? Bill Mahony Dana Professor of Religious Studies Davidson College NC Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: > > ???????? From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed Sep 19 02:32:41 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 18 19:32:41 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0g4KSo4KS/4KS34KWN4KSV4KS/4KSa4KSoOg==?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bill. I hope you were safe in NC during the latest storms. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 7:30 PM Mahony, Bill wrote: > Dear Dr Deshpande, > > I love it, too! My wife and I have been ???????? for several weeks now > while carpenters perform their arts (and might it rather be spelled > ????????? in order to meet the original English pronunciaton?) We do look > forward being ?????? in order to enjoy to our culinary arts. > > ??? ????? > Bill Mahony > Dana Professor of Religious Studies > Davidson College NC > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > > ???????? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 02:41:20 2018 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 18 08:11:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Karnataka Samskrit University- Sanskrit Learning Courses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all The last date has been extended till 25th of September 2018. Regards KP On Tue 11 Sep, 2018, 8:16 PM Krishnaprasad G, wrote: > > Dear list please see the details. > > *Course details* > Duration 1 year > > *Application* Available http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/ > > > *Last date to apply* 15th September > > > *Fee Structure* : > 1. Certificate course 1,000 Rs. > 2. Diploma course1,400 > Rs. > > *Fees payable through Demand draft only* > *Payable* Finance officer , Karntaka Samskrit University > > > *Contact* > Director > Adhyayananga > > > Or > Krishna Prasad > +91 9632828911 > > Swarnadatta > +91 9945459264 > > Address > Karnataka Samskrit University > Pampa Maha Kavi Road, Chamarajpete, opposite to Kannada Sahitya Parishat, > Banglore 560004Dear all please see the details. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 02:55:41 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 18 08:25:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] pratyagabhinnasya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First, a small correction in the text : it is "yasyaiva" not "yasya" *yasyaiva* sphura?a? sad?tmakamasatkalp?rthagam bh?sate s?k??ttattvamas?ti vedavacas? yo bodhayaty??rit?n | yats?k??tkara??dbhavenna punar?v?ttirbhav?mbhonidhau tasmai ?r?gurum?rtaye nama ida? ?r?dak?i??m?rtaye || 3 || pratyagabhinnasya is pratyak + abhinnasya = of the one that is non-different from the pratyak. Pratyaktattva refers to Brahman. 2018-09-19 7:29 GMT+05:30 Harry Spier via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear list members, > > The third verse of the Dak?i??m?rtistotram is: > > yasya sphura?a? sad?tmakamasatkalp?rthagam bh?sate > > s?k??ttattvamas?ti vedavacas? yo bodhayaty??rit?n | > > yats?k??tkara??dbhavenna punar?v?ttirbhav?mbhonidhau > > tasmai ?r?gurum?rtaye nama ida? ?r?dak?i??m?rtaye || 3 || > > > Svayampraka?a's gloss on the first word is: > > 'yasya' pratyagabhinnasya prame?varasya svar?pabh?ta? > > I'm unclear how to interpret pratyagabhinnasya . > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Thu Sep 20 17:41:36 2018 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 18 17:41:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha Message-ID: <20180920174136.27380.qmail@f4mail-235-219.rediffmail.com> To all,1.1.2.of Jaimini's Sutra' on Purva Mimansha,says- ChodanaLakshmanArthaDharma".I am eager to get an elaborate meaning of the term" Chodana". Can anybody kindly  throw some light on this? Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Thu Sep 20 18:34:42 2018 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 18 18:34:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: <20180920174136.27380.qmail@f4mail-235-219.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <0F75784C-786E-4339-8DD9-0DC56B39EB0D@austin.utexas.edu> The s?tra reads: codan?lak?a?o ?rtho dharma?. codan? means injunction, especially Vedic injunction, and is often used as a synonym of vidhi. So dharma is something beneficial disclosed by a Vedic injunction. Patrick > On Sep 20, 2018, at 12:41 PM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY wrote: > > To all, > 1.1.2.of Jaimini's Sutra' on Purva Mimansha,says- ChodanaLakshmanArthaDharma". > I am eager to get an elaborate meaning of the term" Chodana". > > Can anybody kindly throw some light on this? > > Alakendu Das. > > > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From tcoleman at coloradocollege.edu Thu Sep 20 19:14:26 2018 From: tcoleman at coloradocollege.edu (Tracy Coleman) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 18 19:14:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: <0F75784C-786E-4339-8DD9-0DC56B39EB0D@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Is there a good English translation of this text available? --Tracy ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:34 PM To: alakendu das Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha This email originated outside Colorado College. Do not click links or attachments unless you know the content is safe. The s?tra reads: codan?lak?a?o ?rtho dharma?. codan? means injunction, especially Vedic injunction, and is often used as a synonym of vidhi. So dharma is something beneficial disclosed by a Vedic injunction. Patrick > On Sep 20, 2018, at 12:41 PM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY wrote: > > To all, > 1.1.2.of Jaimini's Sutra' on Purva Mimansha,says- ChodanaLakshmanArthaDharma". > I am eager to get an elaborate meaning of the term" Chodana". > > Can anybody kindly throw some light on this? > > Alakendu Das. > > > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C92200882592c496c1aff08d61f27d872%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C0%7C636730653340146464&sdata=%2FSi35HKyHpxnHkGcLRMOruAdKGZLclrVlNenokvBiEw%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7Ctcoleman%40coloradocollege.edu%7C92200882592c496c1aff08d61f27d872%7Ccfc7b13c12964387b3085de08fd13c99%7C1%7C0%7C636730653340146464&sdata=%2FSi35HKyHpxnHkGcLRMOruAdKGZLclrVlNenokvBiEw%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 20:49:55 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 18 14:49:55 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Is there a good English translation of this text available?" --Tracy The M?m?ms? S?tras of Jaimin?, Translated by Mohan Lal Sandal. The Sacred Books of the Hindus, vol. 27. Allahabad, 1925. Reprint, New York: AMS Press, 1974. Included in: Shabara-bh??ya, Translated by Ganganatha Jha, 3 volumes. Gaekwad?s Oriental Series, nos. 66, 70, 73. Baroda, 1933-1936. Reprint as ??bara-bh??ya, Baroda: Oriental Institute, 1973-1974. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:15 PM Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Is there a good English translation of this text available? > > --Tracy > > > ------------------------------ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harzer at utexas.edu Thu Sep 20 20:59:03 2018 From: harzer at utexas.edu (Edeltraud Harzer) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 18 15:59:03 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0CB85D0C-63D5-4E21-8A49-5723C217369D@utexas.edu> Perhaps we could also add: The Prabhakara School of Purva Mimamsa, Translated by Ganganatha Jha. Motilal Banarsidass, reprint 1978. Unless this publication has been included in some other publications. Good luck, Edeltraud Harzer. > On Sep 20, 2018, at 3:49 PM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY wrote: > > "Is there a good English translation of this text available?" > --Tracy > > The M?m?ms? S?tras of Jaimin?, Translated by Mohan Lal Sandal. The Sacred Books of the Hindus, vol. 27. Allahabad, 1925. Reprint, New York: AMS Press, 1974. > > Included in: Shabara-bh??ya, Translated by Ganganatha Jha, 3 volumes. Gaekwad?s Oriental Series, nos. 66, 70, 73. Baroda, 1933-1936. Reprint as ??bara-bh??ya, Baroda: Oriental Institute, 1973-1974. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:15 PM Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Is there a good English translation of this text available? > --Tracy > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Thu Sep 20 21:02:22 2018 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 18 21:02:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sandal available here: https://archive.org/details/mimamsasutra00jaimuoft Best, Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: David and Nancy Reigle > Date: Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 4:49 PM To: "tcoleman at ColoradoCollege.edu" > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha "Is there a good English translation of this text available?" --Tracy The M?m?ms? S?tras of Jaimin?, Translated by Mohan Lal Sandal. The Sacred Books of the Hindus, vol. 27. Allahabad, 1925. Reprint, New York: AMS Press, 1974. Included in: Shabara-bh??ya, Translated by Ganganatha Jha, 3 volumes. Gaekwad?s Oriental Series, nos. 66, 70, 73. Baroda, 1933-1936. Reprint as ??bara-bh??ya, Baroda: Oriental Institute, 1973-1974. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:15 PM Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY > wrote: Is there a good English translation of this text available? --Tracy ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tautatita at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 00:48:56 2018 From: tautatita at gmail.com (Kiyotaka Yoshimizu) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 18 09:48:56 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: <0F75784C-786E-4339-8DD9-0DC56B39EB0D@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: To my knowledge, the term ?codan?? in the M?m??s?s?tra refers to the fundamental injunction (literally, compelling injunction) among a lot of injunctions (vidhi-s) of a sacrifice. It prompts one to perform the sacrifice making one know the originality/novelty (ap?rva), that is, the unique form (r?pa) of the sacrifice that consists of the combination of oblation and deity. See my paper ?Change of View on Ap?rva from ?abarasv?min to Kum?rila.? S. Mayeda (ed.): The Way to Liberation, Indological Studies in Japan, Japanese Studies on South Asia No. 3, New Delhi, 2000, 149?165, p.150, notes 1?5, and 16, in: https://www.academia.edu/32175691/_Change_of_View_on_Ap%C5%ABrva_from_%C5%9Aabarasv%C4%81min_to_Kum%C4%81rila._S._Mayeda_ed._The_Way_to_Liberation_Indological_Studies_in_Japan_Japanese_Studies_on_South_Asia_No._3_New_Delhi_pp._149-165_2000 best wishes Kiyotaka Yoshimizu On 2018/09/21 3:34, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: > The s?tra reads: > > codan?lak?a?o ?rtho dharma?. > > codan? means injunction, especially Vedic injunction, and is often used as a synonym of vidhi. So dharma is something beneficial disclosed by a Vedic injunction. > > Patrick > > > >> On Sep 20, 2018, at 12:41 PM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> To all, >> 1.1.2.of Jaimini's Sutra' on Purva Mimansha,says- ChodanaLakshmanArthaDharma". >> I am eager to get an elaborate meaning of the term" Chodana". >> >> Can anybody kindly throw some light on this? >> >> Alakendu Das. >> >> >> >> >> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Fri Sep 21 06:23:36 2018 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 18 06:23:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another Sandal's exemplar : https://archive.org/stream/Sacred_Books_of_the_Hindus/SBH%2027%20-%20Mimamsa%20Sutras%20of%20Jaimini%20English%20Translation%20-%20Mohan%20Lal%20Sandal%201923#page/n5/mode/2up There is also Jha's translation of the beginning: The p?rva-mim?ms?-s?tras of Jaimini : chapters I-III / transl. with an original commentary [in English] by mahamahop?dhy?ya pandit Ganganath Jha, The sacred books of the Hindus ; vol. 10 . Allahabad : P?nini Office, 1916 [i.e. 1911-1915; Issued in 6 pts. contained in 5 fascicles On covers: Oct. & Nov. 1911, nos. 28 & 29; July 1912, no. 37; September 1913, no. 51; May 1915, no. 71; December 1915, no. 78 No more published. Added t.p. denoting intended scope of work dated 1911]; cf. reprint Varanasi ; Delhi : Bharatiya Publ., 1979, https://archive.org/stream/Sacred_Books_of_the_Hindus/SBH%2010%20-%20Purva%20Mimamsa%20Sutras%20of%20Jaimini%20English%20Translation%20Part%201%20%28Chapters%201%20to%203%29%20-%20Ganganatha%20Jha%201916 For the translation, with ?abara's Bh??ya, by Ganganatha Jha. GOS 66, 1933; 70, 1934; 73, 1936. Reprinted 1973-74. Three volumes. Portions reprinted in Source Book, 487-498, also in SourceBAP 82-91 (< Potter): vol. 1 : https://archive.org/details/shabarabhasyavol032868mbp https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.44511 vol. 2 : http://asi.nic.in/asi_books/8000.pdf https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.8000 vol. 3 : https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56843 index : https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.73538 or : https://archive.org/search.php?query=Shabara%20bhasya= Le 20 sept. 2018 ? 23:02, Lubin, Tim via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Sandal available here: https://archive.org/details/mimamsasutra00jaimuoft Best, Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: David and Nancy Reigle > Date: Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 4:49 PM To: "tcoleman at ColoradoCollege.edu" > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha "Is there a good English translation of this text available?" --Tracy The M?m?ms? S?tras of Jaimin?, Translated by Mohan Lal Sandal. The Sacred Books of the Hindus, vol. 27. Allahabad, 1925. Reprint, New York: AMS Press, 1974. Included in: Shabara-bh??ya, Translated by Ganganatha Jha, 3 volumes. Gaekwad?s Oriental Series, nos. 66, 70, 73. Baroda, 1933-1936. Reprint as ??bara-bh??ya, Baroda: Oriental Institute, 1973-1974. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:15 PM Tracy Coleman via INDOLOGY > wrote: Is there a good English translation of this text available? --Tracy ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Fri Sep 21 06:23:44 2018 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 18 06:23:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha Message-ID: <1537510637.S.34938.autosave.drafts.1537511024.18862@webmail.rediffmail.com> Thank you and everybody else for enlightening me on this.A proper interpretation of the term "Chodana" helps me to understand the arguments between Purva and UttarMimanshists system better. Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: "Olivelle, J P" <jpo at austin.utexas.edu> Sent: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 00:04:51 GMT+0530 To: alakendu das <mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Purva Mimansha The s?tra reads: codan?lak?a?o ?rtho dharma?. codan? means injunction, especially Vedic injunction, and is often used as a synonym of vidhi. So dharma is something beneficial disclosed by a Vedic injunction. Patrick > On Sep 20, 2018, at 12:41 PM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > To all, > 1.1.2.of Jaimini's Sutra' on Purva Mimansha,says- ChodanaLakshmanArthaDharma". > I am eager to get an elaborate meaning of the term" Chodana". > > Can anybody kindly  throw some light on this? > > Alakendu Das. > > > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Sep 21 13:26:53 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 18 06:26:53 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: ???????????? ????????????????? ? ???? ?? ??????? ???????????? ???? ??????? O Lord, your words pacify the torment of the worldly life and remove the pains of my mind. What better medicine is there? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????????? ? ?????? ?? ????? ????: ?????????? ?? ??? ??????? O Krishna, your words displayed your deep compassion. O Lord, my heart was instantly satisfied by the touch of your hand. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 21:37:35 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 18 15:37:35 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Biblatex and Indian manuscripts Message-ID: This message is for colleagues who use TeX, LaTeX and Biblatex . I recently did some experiments in using the "biblatex-manuscripts-philology " (github ) written by Ma?eul Rouquette (geekographer and author of the French book "XeLaTeX Applied to the Humanities "). I find it to be interesting, powerful and pleasing in its clean design. By "clean" I mean that it separates information about manuscripts (kept in a Biblatex database) from formatting and output. You build up a database of manuscript information using tailored biblatex fields like "support." Then you use the features of Biblatex to control the output formatting. If you know Biblatex, you already know how powerful the combination of style and \printbibliography options can be. The manuscript output can be a conspectus siglorum, or a bibliography of manuscripts sorted by location city, or other choices and criteria. The distribution at CTAN includes this demonstration file . Earlier this week, I talked with Ma?eul about adding some features for dealing with Indic manuscripts, and he was immediately responsive and helpful. We've updated the package so that it recognizes supports such as "palm leaf" and "birch bark" as well as scripts like "Devan?gar?" "??rad?," etc. The changes are documented and already posted at CTAN as version 2.0. If you work with manuscripts or critical editions (EDMAC, Ledmac, reledmac), biblatex-manuscripts-philology is worth a look. Best, Dominik -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 08:56:33 2018 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 18 10:56:33 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CfP: The Blend of Tantra: Continuity and Discontinuity within South Asian Mainstream Religions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, the deadline for abstract submission has been extended up to 20th October. Best, Paolo On Sat, 18 Aug 2018 at 17:25, Paolo Eugenio Rosati wrote: > Dear all, > > I > attach > ed > > a > CfP for the 17th conference of EASR > (website: https://easr2019.org/) for a session on Tantra. > > > *Call for Papers: *The European Association for the Study of Religions at > the University of Tartu (Estonia), 25?29 June 2019. > > *Panel Title:* The Blend of Tantra: Continuity and Discontinuity within > South Asian Mainstream Religions > > *Deadline:* 18 September 2018 > > > Further details in the attached file. > > Please email your name, title, abstract (max 300 words), and your short CV > (max 1 page) to > *paoloe.rosati at gmail.com * > > by 18 September 2018. > > > F > eel free to share it with interested students, > friends, > researchers, collegues and research groups. > > > Best > wishes > , > Paolo > > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati * > > > > *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian > Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies ?'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PanelEASR2019_TheBlendofTantra_EASR2019.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 157244 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Sep 22 22:59:52 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 18 15:59:52 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: ?????? ???? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ? ??? ?? ???? ??????????? ??????????????? ??????? I know that you are near me and ready to protect me. O Lord, the fear is gone from my mind, and I have found peace. ???? ???? ???? ???????? ??????????????? ? ??????? ????????????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? You can go wherever you want to rid the world of its torments. But being everywhere, how will you go away? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 23 04:05:53 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 18 21:05:53 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Why_there_is_no_Padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_for_this_mantra?= Message-ID: RV 7.59.12 ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? ??????????????????????? ?????????? does not have a Padap??ha. This is not a repeated mantra in the RV Sa?hit?. What might be the reason why this mantra does not have a Padap??ha? Is it likely that there were a few post-Padap??ha additions to the RV Sa?hit?? Someone asked this question on another discussion group. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch Sun Sep 23 05:22:57 2018 From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 18 05:22:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Why_there_is_no_Padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_for_this_mantra?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <25327A83-8748-4CD1-8E2A-6EDB2C0F604F@unil.ch> The following article mentions the six verses of the ?gveda that have no Padap??ha (on p. 44): Kashikar, C. G. (1951): "The problem of the ga?antas in the ?gveda-Padap??ha." Proceedings of the All-India Oriental Conference 13 (1946), 39-46. Commenting on this, I wrote in 1981 (p. 87): "This is most easily explained by the assumption that these verses were not considered part of the ?gveda by ??kalya. It further shows that the final redactors did not hesitate to deviate from the composer of the Padap??ha in deciding what did, and what did not, belong to the ?gveda. (It is interesting to note that at least one hymn of the ?gveda (10.95) is known to have had fewer verses than at present at as late a date as that of the ?atapatha Br?hma?a. See Oldenberg, 1912: 303.)" "The orthoepic diaskeuasis of the ?gveda and the date of P??ini." Indo-Iranian Journal 23 (1981), pp. 83-95. http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_F9751BB34E62.pdf with a reference to: Oldenberg, Hermann (1912): ?gveda. Textkritische und exegetische Noten. Siebentes bis Zehntes Buch. Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung. Johannes Bronkhorst On 23 Sep 2018, at 06:05, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: RV 7.59.12 ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? ??????????????????????? ?????????? does not have a Padap??ha. This is not a repeated mantra in the RV Sa?hit?. What might be the reason why this mantra does not have a Padap??ha? Is it likely that there were a few post-Padap??ha additions to the RV Sa?hit?? Someone asked this question on another discussion group. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 23 13:32:52 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 18 06:32:52 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Why_there_is_no_Padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_for_this_mantra?= In-Reply-To: <25327A83-8748-4CD1-8E2A-6EDB2C0F604F@unil.ch> Message-ID: Thanks, Johannes. Best. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:23 PM Johannes Bronkhorst < johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch> wrote: > The following article mentions the six verses of the ?gveda that have no > Padap??ha (on p. 44): > > Kashikar, C. G. (1951): "The problem of the ga?antas in the > ?gveda-Padap??ha." *Proceedings of the All-India Oriental Conference* 13 > (1946), 39-46. > > Commenting on this, I wrote in 1981 (p. 87): "This is most easily > explained by the assumption that these verses were not considered part of > the ?gveda by ??kalya. It further shows that the final redactors did not > hesitate to deviate from the composer of the Padap??ha in deciding what > did, and what did not, belong to the ?gveda. (It is interesting to note > that at least one hymn of the ?gveda (10.95) is known to have had fewer > verses than at present at as late a date as that of the ?atapatha Br?hma?a. > See Oldenberg, 1912: 303.)" > > "The orthoepic diaskeuasis of the ?gveda and the date of P??ini." *Indo-Iranian > Journal* 23 (1981), pp. 83-95. > > http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_F9751BB34E62.pdf > > with a reference to: > > Oldenberg, Hermann (1912): *?gveda. Textkritische und exegetische Noten*. > Siebentes bis Zehntes Buch. Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung. > > Johannes Bronkhorst > > On 23 Sep 2018, at 06:05, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > RV 7.59.12 ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? > ??????????????????????? ?????????? does not have a Padap??ha. This is not > a repeated mantra in the RV Sa?hit?. What might be the reason why this > mantra does not have a Padap??ha? Is it likely that there were a few > post-Padap??ha additions to the RV Sa?hit?? Someone asked this question on > another discussion group. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Sep 24 21:47:00 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 18 14:47:00 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: ????????????????? ?????? ?????????: ? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? Always determined to remove the torment of all and quickly going everywhere, you do great exertion. ???????: ?????????? ??? ?? ?????????: ? ??? ??????? ??????? ??? ?????: ??????? ?? ??????? Emersed in your compassion, how can we ever pay back your debt, O Lord? What can we, your portions, do to please you, O Lord? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 03:55:45 2018 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 18 21:55:45 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Why_there_is_no_Padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_for_this_mantra?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The other two recensions of the ?gveda sa?hit? that are now available in print have bearing on this question, the ??val?yana ??kh? and the ???kh?yana ??kh?. Both of them give a padap??ha for verse 7.59.12. What we do not know is whether the padap??ha for this verse was actually found in the 16 manuscripts of the ??val?yana padap??ha used by B. B. Chaubey for his edition, or in the 17 manuscripts of the ???kh?yana padap??ha used by Amal Dhari Singh Gautam for his edition. B. B. Chaubey says (p. 57) that he himself supplied the padap??ha for the 212 verses of the ??val?yana ??kh? that are not found in the ??kala ??kh?, since the ??val?yana padap??ha manuscripts did not give them. He does not say whether he also supplied the padap??ha for verse 7.59.12 that is found in the ??kala ??kh? but there lacks a padap??ha. As far as I could see, Amal Dhari Singh Gautam does not say whether he himself supplied the padap??ha for any verses in his edition of the ???kh?yana ??kh?. We may recall that Vishva Bandhu's edition of the ?gveda quietly supplies the padap??ha for the six verses of the ??kala ??kh? that did not have it. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 7:34 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thanks, Johannes. Best. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:23 PM Johannes Bronkhorst < > johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch> wrote: > >> The following article mentions the six verses of the ?gveda that have no >> Padap??ha (on p. 44): >> >> Kashikar, C. G. (1951): "The problem of the ga?antas in the >> ?gveda-Padap??ha." *Proceedings of the All-India Oriental Conference* 13 >> (1946), 39-46. >> >> Commenting on this, I wrote in 1981 (p. 87): "This is most easily >> explained by the assumption that these verses were not considered part of >> the ?gveda by ??kalya. It further shows that the final redactors did not >> hesitate to deviate from the composer of the Padap??ha in deciding what >> did, and what did not, belong to the ?gveda. (It is interesting to note >> that at least one hymn of the ?gveda (10.95) is known to have had fewer >> verses than at present at as late a date as that of the ?atapatha Br?hma?a. >> See Oldenberg, 1912: 303.)" >> >> "The orthoepic diaskeuasis of the ?gveda and the date of P??ini." *Indo-Iranian >> Journal* 23 (1981), pp. 83-95. >> >> http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_F9751BB34E62.pdf >> >> with a reference to: >> >> Oldenberg, Hermann (1912): *?gveda. Textkritische und exegetische Noten*. >> Siebentes bis Zehntes Buch. Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung. >> >> Johannes Bronkhorst >> >> On 23 Sep 2018, at 06:05, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> RV 7.59.12 ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? >> ??????????????????????? ?????????? does not have a Padap??ha. This is not >> a repeated mantra in the RV Sa?hit?. What might be the reason why this >> mantra does not have a Padap??ha? Is it likely that there were a few >> post-Padap??ha additions to the RV Sa?hit?? Someone asked this question on >> another discussion group. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Sep 25 04:33:48 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 18 21:33:48 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Why_there_is_no_Padap=C4=81=E1=B9=ADha_for_this_mantra?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, What you have reported is very worrisome. After getting hold of the editions of the ??val?yana and ???kh?yana Sa?hit?s, I was myself looking for such details, but many of these details are not provided by the editors. So, one does not know to what extent, these editions faithfully reflect the texts found in the source manuscripts and to what extend the text found in the manuscripts has been "normalized" by the editors. A careful researcher may need to return to the source manuscripts to check the facts. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 8:56 PM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > The other two recensions of the ?gveda sa?hit? that are now available in > print have bearing on this question, the ??val?yana ??kh? and the ???kh?yana > ??kh?. Both of them give a padap??ha for verse 7.59.12. What we do not > know is whether the padap??ha for this verse was actually found in the 16 > manuscripts of the ??val?yana padap??ha used by B. B. Chaubey for his > edition, or in the 17 manuscripts of the ???kh?yana padap??ha used by Amal > Dhari Singh Gautam for his edition. > > B. B. Chaubey says (p. 57) that he himself supplied the padap??ha for the > 212 verses of the ??val?yana ??kh? that are not found in the ??kala ??kh?, > since the ??val?yana padap??ha manuscripts did not give them. He does not > say whether he also supplied the padap??ha for verse 7.59.12 that is > found in the ??kala ??kh? but there lacks a padap??ha. As far as I could > see, Amal Dhari Singh Gautam does not say whether he himself supplied the > padap??ha for any verses in his edition of the ???kh?yana ??kh?. We may > recall that Vishva Bandhu's edition of the ?gveda quietly supplies the > padap??ha for the six verses of the ??kala ??kh? that did not have it. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 7:34 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Thanks, Johannes. Best. >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:23 PM Johannes Bronkhorst < >> johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch> wrote: >> >>> The following article mentions the six verses of the ?gveda that have no >>> Padap??ha (on p. 44): >>> >>> Kashikar, C. G. (1951): "The problem of the ga?antas in the >>> ?gveda-Padap??ha." *Proceedings of the All-India Oriental Conference* >>> 13 (1946), 39-46. >>> >>> Commenting on this, I wrote in 1981 (p. 87): "This is most easily >>> explained by the assumption that these verses were not considered part of >>> the ?gveda by ??kalya. It further shows that the final redactors did not >>> hesitate to deviate from the composer of the Padap??ha in deciding what >>> did, and what did not, belong to the ?gveda. (It is interesting to note >>> that at least one hymn of the ?gveda (10.95) is known to have had fewer >>> verses than at present at as late a date as that of the ?atapatha Br?hma?a. >>> See Oldenberg, 1912: 303.)" >>> >>> "The orthoepic diaskeuasis of the ?gveda and the date of P??ini." *Indo-Iranian >>> Journal* 23 (1981), pp. 83-95. >>> >>> http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_F9751BB34E62.pdf >>> >>> with a reference to: >>> >>> Oldenberg, Hermann (1912): *?gveda. Textkritische und exegetische Noten*. >>> Siebentes bis Zehntes Buch. Berlin: Weidmannsche Buchhandlung. >>> >>> Johannes Bronkhorst >>> >>> On 23 Sep 2018, at 06:05, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> RV 7.59.12 ?????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? >>> ??????????????????????? ?????????? does not have a Padap??ha. This is not >>> a repeated mantra in the RV Sa?hit?. What might be the reason why this >>> mantra does not have a Padap??ha? Is it likely that there were a few >>> post-Padap??ha additions to the RV Sa?hit?? Someone asked this question on >>> another discussion group. >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at gwu.edu Tue Sep 25 12:31:32 2018 From: beitel at gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 18 08:31:32 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 2 questions Message-ID: Dear Colleague*s*, I have two questions about a passage from the *N??ya??stra *cited in V. Raghava?s book,* The Number of Rasas.* The passage comes at the ed of Ragavan?s summary of the ?adbhuta synthesis? of N?r?ya?a, the grandfather of Vi?van?tha. First I give it in what seems a paraphrase: ?The story has to be, says Bharata, like a cow?s tail, bushy at the end, full of surprises. There must be adbhuta at the end.? Raghavan 1940, 173 cites and quotes *N??ya??stra* 20.46-47, which I give here in my transliteration: kAryaM gopucchAgraM kartavyaM kAvyabandhamAsAdya ye codAttA bhAvAH te sarve pRSThataH kAryAH sarveSAM kAvyAnaM nAnArasabhAvayuktiyuktAnAm nirvahaNe kartavyo nityaM hi raso ?dbhutastajjJaiH My two questions are: 1. I don?t see in the Sanskrit what would make the cow?s tail ?bushy?? 2. Can any of you tell me whether this is one of the *N??ya??stra*?s well-known gems, and, whether it is or not, does gopuccha occur elsewhere in connection with literary endings? Very best, Alf Hiltebeitel -- Alf Hiltebeitel Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences Department of Religion George Washington University 2106 G Street, NW Washington DC, 20052 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 18:34:21 2018 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 18 00:04:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 2 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is no word for 'bushy' in the verse. But in gopucchAgraM , agram is the qualified, the topic, the focus. For some one feeling the touch of the cow's tail from its root/beginning, the end is a sudden change, hence a surprise. Similarly in a kAvya, after the description of udAtta bhAvas, description of adbhuta gives a sudden change, a surprise. Giving details of the surprising part of the cow's tail as 'bushy' is just for adding details, for explanation/elaboration. On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Alfred Hiltebeitel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleague*s*, > > > > I have two questions about a passage from the *N??ya??stra *cited in V. > Raghava?s book,* The Number of Rasas.* The passage comes at the ed of > Ragavan?s summary of the ?adbhuta synthesis? of N?r?ya?a, the grandfather > of Vi?van?tha. > > First I give it in what seems a paraphrase: ?The story has to be, says > Bharata, like a cow?s tail, bushy at the end, full of surprises. There must > be adbhuta at the end.? > > Raghavan 1940, 173 cites and quotes *N??ya??stra* 20.46-47, which I give > here in my transliteration: > > kAryaM gopucchAgraM kartavyaM kAvyabandhamAsAdya > > ye codAttA bhAvAH te sarve pRSThataH kAryAH > > sarveSAM kAvyAnaM nAnArasabhAvayuktiyuktAnAm > > nirvahaNe kartavyo nityaM hi raso ?dbhutastajjJaiH > > > > My two questions are: > > 1. I don?t see in the Sanskrit what would make the cow?s tail > ?bushy?? > > 2. Can any of you tell me whether this is one of the *N??ya??stra*?s > well-known gems, and, whether it is or not, does gopuccha occur elsewhere > in connection with literary endings? > > > > Very best, > > Alf Hiltebeitel > > > -- > Alf Hiltebeitel > Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences > Department of Religion > George Washington University > 2106 G Street, NW > Washington DC, 20052 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpg at berkeley.edu Tue Sep 25 21:36:10 2018 From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 18 14:36:10 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: launch of Anthem World Epic and Romance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9934B60A-162B-412B-B1B5-080125B9FBEA@berkeley.edu> Dear Colleagues, I am forwarding, for your reference, the announcement of a new scholarly publication series focusing epic and romance literature from antiquity to modernity and from all languages and cultures. I will be serving as a member of the editorial board of the series.. Do pass this along to your colleagues and advanced students and keep the series in mind for possible publications of your own. Warmest good wishes to you all. Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Jo Ann Cavallo > Subject: launch of Anthem World Epic and Romance > Date: September 25, 2018 at 12:06:59 PM PDT > To: Jo Ann Cavallo > > Dear Colleagues, > I?m delighted to announce that the Anthem World Epic and Romance series has officially launched with 16 editorial board members affiliated with institutions in the USA, UK, Canada, Germany, and Italy, with expertise ranging across several epic and romance traditions from antiquity to the present. The flyer is attached below. Can you please share this news with both established and emerging scholars in your field and invite them to submit proposals? I hope you will also consider publishing your own work within the series. > > A website for the series has been created and will be updated by next week to reflect the full list of names: http://www.anthempress.com/anthem-world-epic-and-romance > > Also, since additional members have joined the editorial board since I last wrote, I?m attaching a revised list with everyone?s primary affiliation and epic/romance field for our internal use. > > Thank you again for your availability. I?m very much looking forward to working with each of you. > Best wishes, > Jo Ann > > Jo Ann Cavallo, Professor and Chair > Columbia University Department of Italian > 514 Hamilton Hall, MC 2835 > 1130 Amsterdam Avenue > New York, NY 10027 > http://italian.columbia.edu/people/profile/1479 > https://columbia.academia.edu/JoAnnCavallo > https://edblogs.columbia.edu/eboiardo/ > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AnthemWorldEpicandRomanceflyer.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 214938 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Wed Sep 26 07:32:03 2018 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 18 09:32:03 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6ea8da24-c924-ac10-db6b-eca41a65dfbb@gmx.de> Dear all, does anybody have a scan of Rau's "Staat und Gesellschaft im alten Indien" and would be ready to share it? I found a scan of this book in the web, but it unfortunately stops after page 55. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, D?sseldorf/IVS, Z?rich From hellwig7 at gmx.de Wed Sep 26 08:32:35 2018 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 18 10:32:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." In-Reply-To: <6ea8da24-c924-ac10-db6b-eca41a65dfbb@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1326215c-1b06-0431-7507-2bd1c746b044@gmx.de> Thanks a lot to Natalia Korneeva for sharing the pdf. Oliver -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 09:32:03 +0200 From: Oliver Hellwig To: Indology Dear all, does anybody have a scan of Rau's "Staat und Gesellschaft im alten Indien" and would be ready to share it? I found a scan of this book in the web, but it unfortunately stops after page 55. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, D?sseldorf/IVS, Z?rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Wed Sep 26 12:24:10 2018 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 18 12:24:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." In-Reply-To: <1326215c-1b06-0431-7507-2bd1c746b044@gmx.de> Message-ID: <50FE2345-47D0-40B6-96B4-ABE923C3437E@austin.utexas.edu> Is it possible to share with more widely? On Sep 26, 2018, at 3:32 AM, Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY > wrote: Thanks a lot to Natalia Korneeva for sharing the pdf. Oliver -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 09:32:03 +0200 From: Oliver Hellwig To: Indology Dear all, does anybody have a scan of Rau's "Staat und Gesellschaft im alten Indien" and would be ready to share it? I found a scan of this book in the web, but it unfortunately stops after page 55. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, D?sseldorf/IVS, Z?rich _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Sep 26 12:30:52 2018 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 18 14:30:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." In-Reply-To: <50FE2345-47D0-40B6-96B4-ABE923C3437E@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Also I would be grateful for a copy --- Artur Karp (ret.) South Asian Studies Deptt., University of Warsaw Poland karp at uw.edu.pl 2018-09-26 14:24 GMT+02:00 Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Is it possible to share with more widely? > > > > On Sep 26, 2018, at 3:32 AM, Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Thanks a lot to Natalia Korneeva for sharing the pdf. > > Oliver > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: PDF of Rau's "Staat ..." > Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 09:32:03 +0200 > From: Oliver Hellwig > To: Indology > > Dear all, > > does anybody have a scan of Rau's "Staat und Gesellschaft im alten > Indien" and would be ready to share it? > > I found a scan of this book in the web, but it unfortunately stops after > page 55. > > Best, Oliver > > --- > Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, D?sseldorf/IVS, Z?rich > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.sweetman at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 02:15:04 2018 From: will.sweetman at gmail.com (Will Sweetman) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 18 14:15:04 +1200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_First_volume_of_A_Descriptive_Catalogue_of_the_Sanskrit_Manuscripts_in_the_Tanjore_Maha=CC=84ra=CC=84ja_Serfoji=E2=80=99s_Sarasvati=CC=84_Maha=CC=84l_Library,_Tanjore?= Message-ID: <4e4fc42e-5f98-a603-9dcb-2aa0e9eeb56a@gmail.com> Could anyone point me to a scan of the first volume of P.P.S. Sastri's A Descriptive Catalogue of the Sanskrit Manuscripts in the Tanjore Maha?ra?ja Serfoji?s Sarasvati? Maha?l Library, Tanjore (1928)? I can find only from Vol.2 onwards in places like archive.org or the DLI mirror at https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/ Failing that, can anyone confirm the date of ms. no. 134? Many thanks Will Sweetman University of Otago From shrivara at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 03:24:13 2018 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrinivasa Varakhedi) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 18 08:54:13 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Four day workshop on Sastric Research Methodology - flyer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Welcome for registration. It?s a unique of its kind. Limited entries are available. Regards, SV -- warm regards, Shrinivasa Varakhedi Vice-chancellor Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sanskrit University Ramtek, Nagpur, Maharatshtra ------------------------------ (Recipient of Presidents Award) Professor in Shastra and Former Dean (Academics) Karnataka Samskrita University, Bengaluru - 560018 Mobile : +91-94853-01353 Ph Off : +91-7722011353 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: flyer-new-srm-1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 478081 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ParticipantBrochure-ShastricResearchMethodologyworkshop.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1305437 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Sep 27 13:50:07 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 18 06:50:07 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses Message-ID: Continuing my Krishna verses: ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ??????????? ? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ??????? O Krishna, when you take me along, holding my finger, I will never go astray. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk Thu Sep 27 19:22:18 2018 From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 18 19:22:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry Message-ID: Dear all, Is there are work on the history and functions of the French Institute, in either French or English? Thank you! Ram-Prasad Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Fellow of the British Academy Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion Lancaster University UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 04:44:06 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 18 22:44:06 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digitized palm leaf MSS from the Whish Collection of the Royal Asiatic Society, London Message-ID: https://archive.org/details/royalasiaticsociety -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 04:55:53 2018 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 18 22:55:53 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09First_volume_of_A_Descriptive_Catalogue_of_the_Sanskrit_Manuscripts_in_the_Tanjore_Maha=CC=84ra=CC=84ja_Serfoji=E2=80=99s_Sarasvati=CC=84_Maha=CC=84l_Library,_Tanjore?= In-Reply-To: <4e4fc42e-5f98-a603-9dcb-2aa0e9eeb56a@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.325998/page/n1 -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk , Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity , Department of History and Classics , University of Alberta, Canada . South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 at 20:15, Will Sweetman via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Could anyone point me to a scan of the first volume of P.P.S. Sastri's A > Descriptive Catalogue of the Sanskrit Manuscripts in the Tanjore > Maha?ra?ja Serfoji?s Sarasvati? Maha?l Library, Tanjore (1928)? I can > find only from Vol.2 onwards in places like archive.org or the DLI > mirror at https://dli.sanskritdictionary.com/ > > Failing that, can anyone confirm the date of ms. no. 134? > > Many thanks > > Will Sweetman > University of Otago > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From soni at staff.Uni-Marburg.DE Fri Sep 28 11:24:16 2018 From: soni at staff.Uni-Marburg.DE (soni at staff.Uni-Marburg.DE) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 18 13:24:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IASS Honorary Research Fellowship Message-ID: <20180928132416.Horde.vurAjKwqZrlKNEQoNRahhzr@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Colleagues, The IASS is happy to announce the Honorary Research Fellowship Beginning 1st March 2019 (with apologies for multiple postings). Any paying member of the IASS (International Association of Sanskrit Studies) is eligible for the HRF, if the scholar has received a PhD in Sanskrit or allied studies in the last five years beginning March 2015. The HRF is for research work to be conducted in South Asia for a period of at least two weeks in any field related to Sanskrit and allied studies. The DEADLINE for the written project proposal is 31 DECEMBER 2018. The honorary research fellowship, valued at 1000 Euros, will be announced annually, providing the IASS budget is able to sustain the expense. NOTE: Please send all proposals and/or queries to Associate Professor McComas Taylor of the IASS: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au See the details here: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/images/pdf/IASS-Honorary-Research-Fellowship.pdf Thank you. J. Soni Secretary General of the IASS The website of the IASS: http://www.sanskritassociation.org/index.php -- From manufrancis at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 15:42:09 2018 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 18 17:42:09 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Full Time Assistant Professor of Pre-Modern Indian Ocean Studies Message-ID: Good to know! *Full Time Assistant Professor of Pre-Modern Indian Ocean Studies* The Gallatin School of Individualized Study at New York University invites applications for a tenure-track position of Assistant Professor in Pre-Modern Indian Ocean Studies *to commence on September 1, 2019.* We seek a scholar of pre-modern Indian Ocean history, culture, politics, and economy, with a primary interest in the exchange of ideas, texts, cultural objects, commodities and trade patterns, and the intermigration of communities. We are particularly interested in an interdisciplinary scholar whose teaching and research focuses on conceiving new ways of thinking about circulation, mobility, and the migration of peoples and ideas within a transregional context. The Indian Ocean, in the pre-modern, constituted a critical central link between ?local? and broader regional and transregional constellations of culture and society, economy and politics that encompassed the Gulf region, Persia, East Africa, South Asia and Southeast Asia. These linkages manifested themselves in the circulations of religion, trade, ideas, language, literature, labor, and the workings of empire and territory. The potential candidate should be able to cover two or more of these geographical areas, with a strong scholarly interest in the theories of trans-cultural exchanges, migration and the creation of economies, polities, geographies and boundaries, within the broader Indian Ocean area. The teaching load for this position is four courses per year. In addition, the position involves serving as an adviser for 20-25 students. Founded in 1972, NYU Gallatin is a liberal arts college of 1,500 undergraduate students and 200 graduate students that are part of New York University. Its innovative B.A. and M.A. programs in individualized study encourage students to develop an integrated, interdisciplinary program of study that combines courses taken in the various schools of NYU with independent studies, internships, and Gallatin?s own interdisciplinary seminars, writing courses and arts workshops. The School emphasizes excellent teaching, top level faculty research, intensive student advising and mentoring, and a unique combination of program flexibility and academic rigor. To learn more about the Gallatin School, please visit our website at gallatin.nyu.edu. *Qualifications:* Ph.D. in hand by time of appointment; demonstrated excellence in teaching at the college or university level; and a strong record of research and writing. All application materials must be submitted electronically. *To apply, please visit:https://apply.interfolio.com/51764 * Please submit a letter of application, curriculum vitae, a statement of your teaching philosophy, a writing sample of 10-20 pages, a brief description of three dream courses (250 words), and three letters of reference. *Review of applications will begin on October 22, 2018 and will continue until the position is filled. For questions, please contact Gallatin Human Resources at **gallatin.hr at nyu.edu **. * NYU is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. --- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Sep 28 17:48:58 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 18 10:48:58 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] My verse on scholars and poets Message-ID: My verse on scholars and poets: ?????????? ? ??????? ? ??? ?????? ????? ? ????????? ???????: ?????: ????????? ???? ???? ?? Scholarship and poetry are never alike. Scholars conduct warfare with words, while poets play with words happily. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Sat Sep 29 11:45:00 2018 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 13:45:00 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_Nay_Science._A_History_of_German_Indology._Review_by_J=C3=BCrgen_Hanneder?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, on behalf of the author, I have the pleasure of drawing your attention to a review by J?rgen Hanneder of the so-called "Nay Science", passed off as a history of German Indology by Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee. A recommendable weekend leisure read, it can be downloaded from here at no charge: http://ogy.de/ltyf Enjoy! Kindly regarding, WS ----------------------------- Univ.-Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Sat Sep 29 17:28:48 2018 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 17:28:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fame Message-ID: <9B11C598-F39E-4337-A69A-7937A26033EF@austin.utexas.edu> Dear All: I am reaching out to find out any studies (thematic, word-study, etc.) on the concept of ?fame? in classical India: ya?as, k?rtti, etc. I got some information a while back from Jarrod Whitaker, but thought I would reach out more broadly to see whether there are any studies that I am not aware of. With thanks and best wishes, Patrick From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Sat Sep 29 20:35:04 2018 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 20:35:04 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_K._Wulff,_Sang_hyang_Kamah=C4=81y=C4=81nan_Mantr=C4=81naya?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Would anyone have a pdf to share of the following? Wulff, K. 1935. Sang hyang Kamah?y?nan Mantr?naya: Ansprache bei der Weihe buddhistischer M?nche aus dem Altjavanischen ?bersetzt und sprachlich erl?utert. Det Kgl. Danske Videnskabernes Selskab. Historisk-filologiske Meddelelser, XXI, 4. K?benhavn: E. Munksgaard. Thank you. Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 30 00:28:26 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 17:28:26 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= Message-ID: In an article by Ankur Barua [ http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 01:01:55 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 21:01:55 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8D69750E-4631-4CA0-B8C2-68E5B7C3A8E6@gmail.com> G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura , allowing only one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a contemporary of C??an?ga (DhsA.230; SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a pilgrimage to N?gad?pa . On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457?f. Dan > On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: > > In an article by Ankur Barua [http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html ], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan > monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 02:44:27 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 22:44:27 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: <8D69750E-4631-4CA0-B8C2-68E5B7C3A8E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf. http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. Dan > On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: > > G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. > > http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html > > 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura , allowing only one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a contemporary of C??an?ga (DhsA.230; SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a pilgrimage to N?gad?pa . On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457?f. > > Dan > >> On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> In an article by Ankur Barua [http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html ], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan >> monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 30 03:02:52 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 20:02:52 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Dan. Will see if I can locate the issue of Journal Asiatique. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an > earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later > MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by > Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, > who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, > since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf. > http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf > > Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who > wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du > Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. > > I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see > what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. > > Dan > > On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. > > http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html > > 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was > known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries > (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once > he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura > , allowing only > one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he > asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the > owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a > contemporary of C??an?ga > (DhsA.230; > SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the > Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words > uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, > is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a > pilgrimage to N?gad?pa . > On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked > self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, > and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha > had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457 f. > > Dan > > On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > In an article by Ankur Barua [ > http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html], > I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a > Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan > monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of > King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to > become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as > the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The > Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was > written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica > Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for > Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a > Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on > this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? > Best, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 03:18:32 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 23:18:32 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6CB39114-D454-4499-845B-2C0694922738@gmail.com> Here?s a bit more, Madhav. According to An Analysis of the P?li Canon, Edited by Russell Webb (Kandy: Sri Lanka, Buddhist Publication Society, 2008 online ed.) http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf The -??k? has several names, and the author is identified with two different names, one of them being Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya, so this is probably what Rahula was referring to. Pp. 21-22 of the ?Table of P?li Literature,? which begins about 3/4 of the way through the book lists the following. 2.6 Mil Milindapa?h?, Milindapa?h? (Title is plural: see Mil 419: ... milindapa?h? samatt? ... tisatapa?h? honti, sabb?va milindapa?h? ti sa?kha? gacchanti.) H 172ff, PL 110ff, PCS. 2.176, HP 93f, BnF 359f, LCM 1154, SH 237, 2.6.1 Mil-? Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) H 172m, PL 150, PSA 100f, HP 75, PCS 2.151, SH 237, VP 4/126, CB 49, EP 58, CS. Not to be conflated with Milindapa?haa??hakath? (B, That?n Mingun Zetawun Say??o/? N?rada Jetavana, 1949.) The abbreviations refer to: H: A Handbook of P?li Literature. Oskar von Hin?ber; Berlin 1996. (?) PL: P?li Literature; K.R. Norman, Wiesbaden, 1983. (? and pages.) (?Appendix I? in Norman?s Collected Papers V, Oxford, 1994, has been consulted) PSA: P?li Literature of South-east Asia; Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddh?tissa, Singapore, 1992, repr. 2004) PCS: P?li Literature Transmitted in Central Siam. Peter Skilling & Santi Pakdeekham; Bangkok 2002. (?) HP: Handbook of P?li Literature. Somapala Jayawardhana; Colombo, 1994. BnF: Catalogue des Manuscrits P?lis des Collections Fran?aises; Jacqueline Filliozat, Jinadasa Liyanaratne, William Pruitt, EFEO DATA Filliozat 101.(MS No.) LCM: Catalogue of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in the Library of the Colombo Museum; W.A. de Silva; Colombo 1938. SH: Singhalesische Handschriften Teil I; Heinz Bechert and Maria Bidoli, Wiesbaden, 1969. Singhalesische Handschriften Teil II; Heinz Bechert, Stuttgart, 1997. (MS No.) and so on. The full list is in the pdf in the ?Abbreviations of Catalogues?? best, Dan > On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Thanks, Dan. Will see if I can locate the issue of Journal Asiatique. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: > I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf. http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf > > Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. > > I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. > > Dan > >> On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. >> >> http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html >> >> 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura , allowing only one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a contemporary of C??an?ga (DhsA.230; SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a pilgrimage to N?gad?pa . On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457?f. >> >> Dan >> >>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>> >>> In an article by Ankur Barua [http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html ], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan >>> monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, >>> >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus >>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan >>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Sep 30 04:30:39 2018 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 21:30:39 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: <6CB39114-D454-4499-845B-2C0694922738@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Dan, Do you know if the Milindapa?ha??k? listed here as: Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) is the same as the Milinda??k? published by Padmanabha Jaini, and published by the PTS? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:18 PM Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Here?s a bit more, Madhav. > > According to *An Analysis of the P?li Canon*, Edited by Russell Webb (Kandy: > Sri Lanka, Buddhist Publication Society, 2008 online ed.) > http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf > > The -??k? has several names, and the author is identified with two > different names, one of them being Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya, so this is > probably what Rahula was referring to. Pp. 21-22 of the ?Table of P?li > Literature,? which begins about 3/4 of the way through the book lists the > following. > > 2.6 Mil > Milindapa?h?, Milindapa?h? (Title is plural: see Mil 419: ... milindapa?h? > samatt? ... tisatapa?h? honti, sabb?va milindapa?h? ti sa?kha? gacchanti.) > H 172ff, PL 110ff, PCS. 2.176, HP > 93f, BnF 359f, LCM 1154, SH 237, > > 2.6.1 Mil-? > Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, > Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) > > H 172m, PL 150, PSA 100f, HP 75, > PCS 2.151, SH 237, VP 4/126, CB > 49, EP 58, CS. > > Not to be conflated with > > Milindapa?haa??hakath? (B, That?n Mingun Zetawun Say??o/? N?rada > Jetavana, 1949.) > > The abbreviations refer to: > > H: A Handbook of P?li Literature. Oskar von Hin?ber; Berlin 1996. (?) > PL: P?li Literature; K.R. Norman, Wiesbaden, 1983. (? and pages.) > (?Appendix I? in Norman?s Collected Papers V, Oxford, 1994, has been > consulted) > PSA: P?li Literature of South-east Asia; Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddh?tissa, > Singapore, 1992, repr. 2004) > PCS: P?li Literature Transmitted in Central Siam. Peter Skilling & Santi > Pakdeekham; Bangkok 2002. (?) > HP: Handbook of P?li Literature. Somapala Jayawardhana; Colombo, 1994. > BnF: Catalogue des Manuscrits P?lis des Collections Fran?aises; Jacqueline > Filliozat, Jinadasa Liyanaratne, William Pruitt, EFEO DATA Filliozat > 101.(MS No.) > LCM: Catalogue of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in the Library of the Colombo > Museum; W.A. de Silva; Colombo 1938. > SH: Singhalesische Handschriften Teil I; Heinz Bechert and Maria Bidoli, > Wiesbaden, 1969. Singhalesische Handschriften Teil II; Heinz Bechert, > Stuttgart, 1997. (MS No.) > > and so on. The full list is in the pdf in the ?Abbreviations of > Catalogues?? > > best, > Dan > > > On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Thanks, Dan. Will see if I can locate the issue of Journal Asiatique. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an >> earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later >> MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by >> Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, >> who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, >> since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf. >> http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf >> >> Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who >> wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du >> Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. >> >> I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see >> what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. >> >> Dan >> >> On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. >> >> http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html >> >> 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was >> known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries >> (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. >> Once he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura >> , allowing only >> one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he >> asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the >> owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a >> contemporary of C??an?ga >> (DhsA.230; >> SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the >> Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words >> uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, >> is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a >> pilgrimage to N?gad?pa >> . On the way he >> stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made >> friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, and C???bhaya, >> seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the >> Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457 f. >> >> Dan >> >> On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> In an article by Ankur Barua [ >> http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html], >> I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a >> Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan >> monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of >> King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to >> become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as >> the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The >> Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was >> written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica >> Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for >> Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a >> Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on >> this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? >> Best, >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Sun Sep 30 05:38:20 2018 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 18 19:38:20 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clio and Her Descendents: Essays in Honor of Kesavan Veluthat Message-ID: Dear Friends, I wanted to let you know, on behalf of its accomplished editor Manu Devadevan, about a book that has recently been published called *Clio and Her Descendents: Essays in Honor of Kesavan Veluthat*. It is a Festschrift for the incomparable historian of early South India, Kesavan Veluthat. The book is a mammoth and I draw your attention to it because it includes so many extraordinary essays on a vast range of topics in the history of premodern and early modern South Asia (not restricted to the south by any means); made up of new and original work by so many star historians, philologists, and literary scholars, as well as even the occasional udb?hur v?mana? (such as the present emailer). Finally all royalties from the book's sales are being donated to the famed, though financially struggling, Kudiyattam troupe from Kerala, Nepathya. Here is the link to the publisher's page: http://www.primusbooks.com/showbookdetail.asp?bookid=218 Thanks, ??????,J ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Sun Sep 30 06:06:53 2018 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 06:06:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fame In-Reply-To: <9B11C598-F39E-4337-A69A-7937A26033EF@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Do you know this one? Vogel, J.Ph. 1906. ?Sanskrit k?rti.? Bijdragen tot de Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde 59: 344?48. https://doi.org/10.1163/22134379-90001965. Best wishes, Arlo ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2018 5:28 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fame Dear All: I am reaching out to find out any studies (thematic, word-study, etc.) on the concept of ?fame? in classical India: ya?as, k?rtti, etc. I got some information a while back from Jarrod Whitaker, but thought I would reach out more broadly to see whether there are any studies that I am not aware of. With thanks and best wishes, Patrick _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) INDOLOGY Info Page listinfo.indology.info INDOLOGY is an internet discussion group whose primary purpose is to provide a forum for discussion among professional scholars of classical Indian (South Asian) civilization. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Sun Sep 30 06:22:12 2018 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 06:22:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting question. I suppose you mean an external point of view, not the brief self-description that can be read on http://www.ifpindia.org/the-institute? If anything exists, I am sure its librarian Anurupa Naik, who I believe is on this list, will know. [http://www.ifpindia.org/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow_size/public/001-French-Institute-front-view.jpg?itok=XZksZZ7I] About us - French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) www.ifpindia.org The French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP), UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE, is a research institution under the joint supervision of the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS). Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Paris) ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry Dear all, Is there are work on the history and functions of the French Institute, in either French or English? Thank you! Ram-Prasad Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Fellow of the British Academy Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion Lancaster University UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 06:46:51 2018 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 02:46:51 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27426276-1234-4125-AD64-913A88E21C81@gmail.com> Hello, Madhav, Since the Table is introduced with an explanation discussing that many texts have multiple names, so that all the texts in the same box are to be considered alternate names of the same basic texts (variants between mss. and editions, etc. included), it would seem the Milindapa?ha??k? included as one of the titles, would be the same as the Milinda-??k? ed. by Jaini. Tracking down the various editions, mss., etc. could be done by checking the catalogues cited. The online book An Analysis of the P?li Canon (http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf ) seems to be a composite of two works. The first part by Webb is an ?analysis? of the P?li canon; the second part, with the table of texts and the catalogues in which they are identified, was initially a different work by Bhikkhu Nyanatusita titled A Reference Table of Pali Literature, which the online edition has added to the Webb book, treating them as a joint work; which is why the pagination for the later part with the Table commences new pagination. Rahula?s article should indicate which edition of the ??k? he consulted, and that then could be examined to see whether that coincides with the Jaini edition (which at first was a separate volume, but PTS eventually included it in their reprint of Pali edition of Milindapa?ha), or is an alternate version of the same (or different) text. best, Dan > On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:30 AM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Hello Dan, > > Do you know if the Milindapa?ha??k? listed here as: > > Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, > Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) > > is the same as the Milinda??k? published by Padmanabha Jaini, and published by the PTS? > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus > Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan > [Residence: Campbell, California] > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:18 PM Dan Lusthaus > wrote: > Here?s a bit more, Madhav. > > According to An Analysis of the P?li Canon, Edited by Russell Webb (Kandy: Sri Lanka, Buddhist Publication Society, 2008 online ed.) > http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf > > The -??k? has several names, and the author is identified with two different names, one of them being Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya, so this is probably what Rahula was referring to. Pp. 21-22 of the ?Table of P?li Literature,? which begins about 3/4 of the way through the book lists the following. > > 2.6 Mil > Milindapa?h?, Milindapa?h? (Title is plural: see Mil 419: ... milindapa?h? > samatt? ... tisatapa?h? honti, sabb?va milindapa?h? ti sa?kha? gacchanti.) > H 172ff, PL 110ff, PCS. 2.176, HP > 93f, BnF 359f, LCM 1154, SH 237, > > 2.6.1 Mil-? > Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, > Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) > > H 172m, PL 150, PSA 100f, HP 75, > PCS 2.151, SH 237, VP 4/126, CB > 49, EP 58, CS. > > Not to be conflated with > > Milindapa?haa??hakath? (B, That?n Mingun Zetawun Say??o/? N?rada > Jetavana, 1949.) > > The abbreviations refer to: > > H: A Handbook of P?li Literature. Oskar von Hin?ber; Berlin 1996. (?) > PL: P?li Literature; K.R. Norman, Wiesbaden, 1983. (? and pages.) (?Appendix I? in Norman?s Collected Papers V, Oxford, 1994, has been consulted) > PSA: P?li Literature of South-east Asia; Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddh?tissa, Singapore, 1992, repr. 2004) > PCS: P?li Literature Transmitted in Central Siam. Peter Skilling & Santi Pakdeekham; Bangkok 2002. (?) > HP: Handbook of P?li Literature. Somapala Jayawardhana; Colombo, 1994. > BnF: Catalogue des Manuscrits P?lis des Collections Fran?aises; Jacqueline Filliozat, Jinadasa Liyanaratne, William Pruitt, EFEO DATA Filliozat 101.(MS No.) > LCM: Catalogue of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in the Library of the Colombo Museum; W.A. de Silva; Colombo 1938. > SH: Singhalesische Handschriften Teil I; Heinz Bechert and Maria Bidoli, Wiesbaden, 1969. Singhalesische Handschriften Teil II; Heinz Bechert, Stuttgart, 1997. (MS No.) > > and so on. The full list is in the pdf in the ?Abbreviations of Catalogues?? > > best, > Dan > > >> On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: >> >> Thanks, Dan. Will see if I can locate the issue of Journal Asiatique. >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus >> Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan >> [Residence: Campbell, California] >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf. http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf >> >> Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. >> >> I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. >> >> Dan >> >>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>> >>> G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. >>> >>> http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html >>> >>> 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura , allowing only one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a contemporary of C??an?ga (DhsA.230; SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a pilgrimage to N?gad?pa . On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457?f. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>> >>>> In an article by Ankur Barua [http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html ], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan >>>> monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, >>>> >>>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>>> Professor Emeritus >>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics >>>> University of Michigan >>>> [Residence: Campbell, California] >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Sun Sep 30 07:59:53 2018 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 07:59:53 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: <27426276-1234-4125-AD64-913A88E21C81@gmail.com> Message-ID: O. von Hin?ber, A Hanbomok of P?li Literature (1996), p. 86 (? 180) referring to Jaini?s edition, comments: ?The Milinda??k? ? or Madhuratthappak?sin? ? by Mah?pi?aka C???bhayattthera has probably been composed in AD 1474 perhaps in Chiang Mai.? I don?t have Jaini?s edition immediately to hand, but the concluding verses of the BJT edition available via GRETIL do indeed contain an aspiration to becoming a buddha. I copy and paste from that electronic edition: Pu??enanena vipulena bhav?bhavesu Pu???bhiv???ha parisuddhagu??dhiv?so Hutv? nar?dhikataro (vata) sabbase??ho. Buddho bhaveyyamahamuttaman?than?tho. NB I see that on GRETIL the file milind2u.htm is listed as if it is vol 2 of Milindapa?ha, it is in fact Madhurathappak?sin?: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/2_pali/2_parcan/milind2u.htm An aspiration to buddhahood is found in the concluding verses of the works of other Lan Na authors, for example, at the end of ??nakitti?s Atthas?lin?-atthayojana. Best wishes, Rupert -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TB, UK Telephone: +44 117 928 8169 Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk On 30 Sep 2018, at 07:46, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: Hello, Madhav, Since the Table is introduced with an explanation discussing that many texts have multiple names, so that all the texts in the same box are to be considered alternate names of the same basic texts (variants between mss. and editions, etc. included), it would seem the Milindapa?ha??k? included as one of the titles, would be the same as the Milinda-??k? ed. by Jaini. Tracking down the various editions, mss., etc. could be done by checking the catalogues cited. The online book An Analysis of the P?li Canon (http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf ) seems to be a composite of two works. The first part by Webb is an ?analysis? of the P?li canon; the second part, with the table of texts and the catalogues in which they are identified, was initially a different work by Bhikkhu Nyanatusita titled A Reference Table of Pali Literature, which the online edition has added to the Webb book, treating them as a joint work; which is why the pagination for the later part with the Table commences new pagination. Rahula?s article should indicate which edition of the ??k? he consulted, and that then could be examined to see whether that coincides with the Jaini edition (which at first was a separate volume, but PTS eventually included it in their reprint of Pali edition of Milindapa?ha), or is an alternate version of the same (or different) text. best, Dan On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:30 AM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: Hello Dan, Do you know if the Milindapa?ha??k? listed here as: Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) is the same as the Milinda??k? published by Padmanabha Jaini, and published by the PTS? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:18 PM Dan Lusthaus > wrote: Here?s a bit more, Madhav. According to An Analysis of the P?li Canon, Edited by Russell Webb (Kandy: Sri Lanka, Buddhist Publication Society, 2008 online ed.) http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf The -??k? has several names, and the author is identified with two different names, one of them being Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya, so this is probably what Rahula was referring to. Pp. 21-22 of the ?Table of P?li Literature,? which begins about 3/4 of the way through the book lists the following. 2.6 Mil Milindapa?h?, Milindapa?h? (Title is plural: see Mil 419: ... milindapa?h? samatt? ... tisatapa?h? honti, sabb?va milindapa?h? ti sa?kha? gacchanti.) H 172ff, PL 110ff, PCS. 2.176, HP 93f, BnF 359f, LCM 1154, SH 237, 2.6.1 Mil-? Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) H 172m, PL 150, PSA 100f, HP 75, PCS 2.151, SH 237, VP 4/126, CB 49, EP 58, CS. Not to be conflated with Milindapa?haa??hakath? (B, That?n Mingun Zetawun Say??o/? N?rada Jetavana, 1949.) The abbreviations refer to: H: A Handbook of P?li Literature. Oskar von Hin?ber; Berlin 1996. (?) PL: P?li Literature; K.R. Norman, Wiesbaden, 1983. (? and pages.) (?Appendix I? in Norman?s Collected Papers V, Oxford, 1994, has been consulted) PSA: P?li Literature of South-east Asia; Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddh?tissa, Singapore, 1992, repr. 2004) PCS: P?li Literature Transmitted in Central Siam. Peter Skilling & Santi Pakdeekham; Bangkok 2002. (?) HP: Handbook of P?li Literature. Somapala Jayawardhana; Colombo, 1994. BnF: Catalogue des Manuscrits P?lis des Collections Fran?aises; Jacqueline Filliozat, Jinadasa Liyanaratne, William Pruitt, EFEO DATA Filliozat 101.(MS No.) LCM: Catalogue of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in the Library of the Colombo Museum; W.A. de Silva; Colombo 1938. SH: Singhalesische Handschriften Teil I; Heinz Bechert and Maria Bidoli, Wiesbaden, 1969. Singhalesische Handschriften Teil II; Heinz Bechert, Stuttgart, 1997. (MS No.) and so on. The full list is in the pdf in the ?Abbreviations of Catalogues?? best, Dan On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Thanks, Dan. Will see if I can locate the issue of Journal Asiatique. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf. http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. Dan On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY > wrote: G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html 3. C???bhaya.? A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries (e.g., VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once he shut three of the gates of Anur?dhapura, allowing only one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a contemporary of C??an?ga (DhsA.230; SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a pilgrimage to N?gad?pa. On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the vih?ra, and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457?f. Dan On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: In an article by Ankur Barua [http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work." Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57. I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 30 08:33:28 2018 From: georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr (Georges PINAULT) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 10:33:28 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81tipi=E1=B9=ADaka_C=C5=ABl=CC=A5=C4=81bhaya?= In-Reply-To: <27426276-1234-4125-AD64-913A88E21C81@gmail.com> Message-ID: <738278956.2388.1538296408720.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p17> Dear Colleagues, ? For these issues and connected matter, the Handbook of P?li Literature by Oskar von Hin?ber (Berlin-New York, 1996) remains worthy of being consulted, see precisely p. 83 and 86. Best regards, ?? Georges-Jean Pinault? ? ? ? ? > Message du 30/09/18 08:47> De : "Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY" > A : "Madhav Deshpande" > Copie ? : "Indology" > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Mah?tipi?aka C?l??bhaya> >Hello, Madhav, ? Since the Table is introduced with an explanation discussing that many texts have multiple names, so that all the texts in the same box are to be considered alternate names of the same basic texts (variants between mss. and editions, etc. included), it would seem the?Milindapa?ha??k? included as one of the titles, would be the same as the Milinda-??k? ed. by Jaini. Tracking down the various editions, mss., etc. could be done by checking the catalogues cited.? ? The online book?An Analysis of the P?li Canon (http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf?)?seems to be a composite of two works. The first part by Webb is an ?analysis? of the P?li canon; the second part, with the table of texts and the catalogues in which they are identified, was initially a different work by Bhikkhu Nyanatusita titled A Reference Table of Pali Literature, which the online edition has added to the Webb book, treating them as a joint work; which is why the pagination for the later part with the Table commences new pagination. ? Rahula?s article should indicate which edition of the ??k? he consulted, and that then could be examined to see whether that coincides with the Jaini edition (which at first was a separate volume, but PTS eventually included it in their reprint of Pali edition of Milindapa?ha), or is an alternate version of the same (or different) text. ? best, Dan On Sep 30, 2018, at 12:30 AM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: Hello Dan, ? Do you know if the Milindapa?ha??k? listed here as: ? Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) ? is the same as the Milinda??k? published by Padmanabha Jaini, and published by the PTS? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:18 PM Dan Lusthaus wrote: Here?s a bit more, Madhav. ? According to An Analysis of the P?li Canon, Edited by Russell Webb?(Kandy: Sri Lanka, Buddhist Publication Society, 2008 online ed.) http://budsas.net/sach/en137.pdf? The -??k? has several names, and the author is identified with two different names, one of them being?Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya, so this is probably what Rahula was referring to. Pp. 21-22 of the ?Table of P?li Literature,? which begins about 3/4 of the way through the book lists the following. 2.6 Mil Milindapa?h?, Milindapa?h? (Title is plural: see Mil 419: ... milindapa?h? samatt? ... tisatapa?h? honti, sabb?va milindapa?h? ti sa?kha? gacchanti.) H 172ff, PL 110ff, PCS. 2.176, HP 93f, BnF 359f, LCM 1154, SH 237, 2.6.1 Mil-? Madhuratthapak?sin?, Milindapa?ha??k?, Milindapa?havivara?a (CM ?, Mah?tipi?aka C???bhaya or Cullavimalabuddhi, 1474) H 172m, PL 150, PSA 100f, HP 75, PCS 2.151, SH 237, VP 4/126, CB 49, EP 58, CS. Not to be conflated with ? Milindapa?haa??hakath? (B, That?n Mingun Zetawun Say??o/? N?rada Jetavana, 1949.) The abbreviations refer to: H: A Handbook of P?li Literature. Oskar von Hin?ber; Berlin 1996. (?) PL: P?li Literature; K.R. Norman, Wiesbaden, 1983. (? and pages.) (?Appendix I? in Norman?s Collected Papers V, Oxford, 1994, has been consulted) PSA: P?li Literature of South-east Asia; Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddh?tissa, Singapore, 1992, repr. 2004) PCS: P?li Literature Transmitted in Central Siam. Peter Skilling & Santi Pakdeekham; Bangkok 2002. (?) HP: Handbook of P?li Literature. Somapala Jayawardhana; Colombo, 1994. BnF: Catalogue des Manuscrits P?lis des Collections Fran?aises; Jacqueline Filliozat, Jinadasa Liyanaratne, William Pruitt, EFEO DATA Filliozat 101.(MS No.)? LCM: Catalogue of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in the Library of the Colombo Museum; W.A. de Silva; Colombo 1938.? SH: Singhalesische Handschriften Teil I; Heinz Bechert and Maria Bidoli, Wiesbaden, 1969. Singhalesische Handschriften Teil II; Heinz Bechert, Stuttgart, 1997. (MS No.) ? and so on. The full list is in the pdf in the ?Abbreviations of Catalogues?? ? best, Dan ? ? On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: Thanks, Dan.? Will see if I can locate the issue of Journal Asiatique.?? ? Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 7:45 PM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: I should add, that like with a previous query, this is another case of an earlier and later figure sharing the same name (the later MAH?-Tipi?aka-C???bhaya is 12th c., while the earlier one described by Malalasekera is considered pre-Buddhaghosa). I don?t believe that Jaini, who edited the Milinda-??k?, identified the author of that commentary, but, since it cites Buddhaghosa, it must be by someone post-Buddhaghosa. Cf.?http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/an343601.pdf? ? Barua is quoting Walpola Rahula re: the 12th c Therav?din commentator who wanted to become a Buddha, with the reference: Walpola, R. 1971. L'ideal du Bodhisatta dans le Therav?da et le Mah?y?na. Journal Asiatique: 69. ? I don?t have access to that Journal at the moment, so can?t check to see what sources Rahula was drawing on. Perhaps someone else has it on hand. ? Dan On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: G.P. Malalasekera?s Dictionary of P?li Proper Names offers the following. ? http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/DPPN/culabhaya.html? ? 3. C???bhaya.??A Thera of Sri Lanka and a well-known commentator; he was known as Tipi?aka-C???bhaya. He is several times quoted in the Commentaries (e.g.,?VibhA.11, 16; Vism.69, 394, 397). He had a prodigious memory. Once he shut three of the gates of?Anur?dhapura, allowing only one door for the use of those leaving the city. As each person went out he asked his name, and each of these names he was able to repeat when the owner returned in the evening to the city (DA.ii.530). He was a contemporary of?C??an?ga?(DhsA.230; SA.iii.206), with whom he held discussions. His description (given at the?Lohap?s?da) (DA.ii.442) of the details connected with the first words uttered by the Buddha after his birth, and the manner in which he walked, is accepted as authentic. He once went with a company of monks on a pilgrimage to?N?gad?pa. On the way he stayed in a monastery. One of his followers, who lacked self-control, made friends with another of like temperament in the?vih?ra, and C???bhaya, seeing them laugh aloud, pointed out how truly the Buddha had said in the Dh?tusa?yutta that like joins with like. VibhA.457?f. ? Dan ? On Sep 29, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: In an article by Ankur Barua [http://introductiontoappliedbuddhism.blogspot.com/2009/10/bodhisatta-concept-in-theravada.html], I came across this reference: "Therav?din author who wished to become a Buddha?by following the Bodhisatta-y?na is the `Sri Lankan monk Mah?-Tipitaka C?l?bhaya. In his subcommentary on the ?Questions of King Milinda? during the twelfth-century, he wrote that he wished to become a Buddha at the end of his work."? Is this commentary the same as the Milinda??k? published by the PTS, or a different commentary?? The Milinda-A??hakath? of U N?rada alias Mingun Zetavun Sayadaw that was written around 1948 and transcribed and published by me [Studia Philologica Buddhica, Monograph Series XIII, Tokyo, The International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 1999] refers to the opinion of a Tipi?aka-C?l??bhayatthera on p.57.? I would appreciate any information on this monk and his commentary on Milindapa?ha. Is it available anywhere? Best, ? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan [Residence: Campbell, California] _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr Sun Sep 30 09:17:24 2018 From: georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr (Georges PINAULT) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 11:17:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry Message-ID: <369770584.2428.1538299044243.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m16> Dear Colleagues, ? Thanks for this interest. I would suggest to look at the bibliography of Jean Filliozat, where reports on the activity of the IFP can be found. You may also write to Nicolas Dejenne (nicolas.dejenne at gmail.com), who has made several stays there, and who knows the history of Indology in general.? Best regards, ? Georges-Jean Pinault? ? ? ? ? > Message du 30/09/18 08:23> De : "Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY" > A : "INDOLOGY" > Copie ? : > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry> > > Interesting question. I suppose you mean an external point of view, not the brief self-description that can be read on http://www.ifpindia.org/the-institute? If anything exists, I am sure its librarian Anurupa Naik, who I believe is on this list, will know.> ? About us - French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) www.ifpindia.org The French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP), UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE, is a research institution under the joint supervision of the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS). > Arlo Griffiths ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Paris)> > > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi via INDOLOGY > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 PM> To: indology at list.indology.info> Subject: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry ? Dear all, Is there are work on the history and functions of the French Institute, in either French or English?? Thank you! Ram-Prasad > Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad Fellow of the British Academy Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion Lancaster University UK _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 16:56:40 2018 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 18:56:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The churning of the ocean of milk -- pdf request Message-ID: Dear Indologists, I am looking for a pdf of three articles: *The Churning of the Ocean of Milk? Myth, Image and Ecology Joanna Williams India International Centre Quarterly Vol. 19, No. 1/2, INDIGENOUS VISION: PEOPLES OF INDIA ATTITUDES TO THE ENVIRONMENT (SPRING-SUMMER 1992), pp. 145-155 **A DISCUSSION OF TWO METAPHORS IN THE "CHURNING OF THE OCEANS" FROM THE "MAH?BH?RATA* Rodney Parrott Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute Vol. 64, No. 1/4 (1983), pp. 17-33 *THE VEDIC METAPHOR IN THE "CHURNING OF OCEAN" C. G. Kashikar Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute Vol. 65, No. 1/4 (1984), pp. 241-243 *Tortoise in Mythology and Ritual Hukam Chand Patyal East and West Vol. 45, No. 1/4 (December 1995), pp. 97-107 Any other suggestion on further readings on the relationship between milk/sexuality/creation in mythology is very welcome. Best, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 17:29:03 2018 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 19:29:03 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The churning of the ocean of milk -- pdf request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Lubom?r Ondra?ka for sending me the articles! Paolo On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 at 19:27, Paolo Eugenio Rosati wrote: > Thanks so much! > Paolo > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 at 19:21, Lubom?r Ondra?ka > wrote: > >> Dear Paolo, >> >> I have these articles. >> >> Best, >> Lubomir >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 18:56:40 +0200 >> Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> > Dear Indologists, >> > >> > I am looking for a pdf of three articles: >> > >> > >> > *The Churning of the Ocean of Milk? Myth, Image and Ecology >> > Joanna Williams >> > India International Centre Quarterly >> > Vol. 19, No. 1/2, INDIGENOUS VISION: PEOPLES OF INDIA ATTITUDES TO THE >> > ENVIRONMENT (SPRING-SUMMER 1992), pp. 145-155 >> > >> > **A DISCUSSION OF TWO METAPHORS IN THE "CHURNING OF THE OCEANS" FROM THE >> > "MAH?BH?RATA* >> > Rodney Parrott >> > Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute >> > Vol. 64, No. 1/4 (1983), pp. 17-33 >> > >> > *THE VEDIC METAPHOR IN THE "CHURNING OF OCEAN" >> > C. G. Kashikar >> > Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute >> > Vol. 65, No. 1/4 (1984), pp. 241-243 >> > >> > *Tortoise in Mythology and Ritual >> > Hukam Chand Patyal >> > East and West >> > Vol. 45, No. 1/4 (December 1995), pp. 97-107 >> > >> > Any other suggestion on further readings on the relationship between >> > milk/sexuality/creation in mythology is very welcome. >> > Best, >> > Paolo >> > -- >> > *Paolo E. Rosati * >> > >> > >> > >> > *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian >> > Institute of Oriental Studies 'Sapienza' University of Rome* >> > >> > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ >> > * >> > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it >> > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com >> > Skype: paoloe.rosati >> > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 >> > > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati * > > > > *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian > Institute of Oriental Studies ?'Sapienza' University of Rome* > > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Skype: paoloe.rosati > Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > > -- *Paolo E. Rosati * *PhD in Civilizations of Asia and Africa (South Asia Section)Italian Institute of Oriental Studies ?'Sapienza' University of Rome* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Sep 30 17:52:44 2018 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 12:52:44 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fame Message-ID: <34314DC0-FD54-4F5A-AF2C-5BF7AC3E4ADB@aol.com> Dear Patrick, Please see 'Tamil Heroic Poetry' by K. Kailasapathy, OUP, 1968, pp. 14 and 231-238. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 9/29/18, 12:29 PM, "INDOLOGY on behalf of Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY" wrote: Dear All: I am reaching out to find out any studies (thematic, word-study, etc.) on the concept of ?fame? in classical India: ya?as, k?rtti, etc. I got some information a while back from Jarrod Whitaker, but thought I would reach out more broadly to see whether there are any studies that I am not aware of. With thanks and best wishes, Patrick _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)