From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 01:30:06 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 18 19:30:06 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Don't write to me!
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdMdbQ-qR1Uj-AoVLq72u5DfyF9cRYQLiDmYZ5jATYWsw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends,

If you have any message relating to INDOLOGY - website or discussion forum
- please kindly write to the Managing Committee, <
indology-owner at list.indology.info>.  This contact address is given in the
footer on every page of the INDOLOGY <http://indology.info> website.

Please don't write to me personally.  The members of the committee take
turns to be on duty, and therefore we are all off duty more than we are on
duty.  If you write to me personally, I usually simply have the added work
of forwarding your message to the Committee address for you.

I'd be really grateful if you could follow these guidelines.

Best wishes,
Dominik Wujastyk (off duty Committee member :-)


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From anurupa.n at ifpindia.org  Mon Oct  1 04:12:39 2018
From: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org (Anurupa Naik)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 18 09:42:39 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0902MB17534F234822BB6BFDC589C3A5EE0@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <71b53c1a-2508-60e2-58e7-a4019a0da582@ifpindia.org>

Thank you Arlo! I had replied to Prof. Chakravarthi offlist, and 
provided him with some material.

With best wishes,
Anurupa

On 30-09-2018 11:52, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
>
> Interesting question. I suppose you mean an external point of view, 
> not the brief self-description that can be read on 
> http://www.ifpindia.org/the-institute 
> <http://www.ifpindia.org/the-institute>? If anything exists, I am sure 
> its librarian Anurupa Naik, who I believe is on this list, will know.
> <http://www.ifpindia.org/the-institute>
> 	
> About us - French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP) 
> <http://www.ifpindia.org/the-institute>
> www.ifpindia.org
> The French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP), UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE, is a 
> research institution under the joint supervision of the French 
> Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the French National Centre for 
> Scientific Research (CNRS).
>
>
> Arlo Griffiths
> ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (Paris)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of 
> Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 PM
> *To:* indology at list.indology.info
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] French Institute at Pondicherry
> Dear all,
> Is there are work on the history and functions of the French 
> Institute, in either French or English?
> Thank you!
> Ram-Prasad
>
> Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad
> Fellow of the British Academy
> Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy
> Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion
> Lancaster University
> UK
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
Ms. Anurupa Naik
Head, Library and Publication Division
French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP)
UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE
P.B. 33
11, St. Louis Street
Pondicherry-605 001, INDIA

Tel: 91-413-2231660
Fax: 91-413-2231605
e-mail: anurupa.n at ifpindia.org
website: www.ifpindia.org

  



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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Oct  1 16:45:56 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 18 18:45:56 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Russian abbreviation
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsv+X9eGLGUnAjdTkxsf=SqOOi5OR3v4t7AkKMQrrpuig@mail.gmail.com>

A highly interesting paper (by ????????? ?????????, "*?????? ?
???????*. *??????
? ??????? ???????????? ??????* *? ?????????? ???????????? ????????"*)

Printed in a book published by (?) *???? ???*

Would someone, please, decipher this abbreviation and quote here its full
Russian form?

Best,

Artur Karp (em.)
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej
Uniwersytet Warszawski
Polska


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Mon Oct  1 16:51:08 2018
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 18 16:51:08 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Russian abbreviation
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsv+X9eGLGUnAjdTkxsf=SqOOi5OR3v4t7AkKMQrrpuig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D7D7C837.5E1A5%lubint@wlu.edu>

Dear Artur,

It must be the ?????? ??????????????? ? ???????????? ???????????? of the ?????????? ???????? ???? (Russian Academy of Sciences).

Best,
Tim

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl<mailto:karp at uw.edu.pl>>
Date: Monday, October 1, 2018 at 12:45 PM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Russian abbreviation

A highly interesting paper (by ????????? ?????????, "?????? ? ???????. ?????? ? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ???????????? ????????")

Printed in a book published by (?) ???? ???

Would someone, please, decipher this abbreviation and quote here its full Russian form?

Best,

Artur Karp (em.)
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej
Uniwersytet Warszawski
Polska




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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Oct  2 05:04:39 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 18 22:04:39 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcJVBRaJ0RUqYVj1ecPs384gYOm17xNkEknarPfOgL-AA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

?????? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?
????? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????? ???????
I will go in the world lead by you. You are my movement. O Lord, where
shall I go leaving you?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From danilov.dmitry.an at gmail.com  Tue Oct  2 19:41:22 2018
From: danilov.dmitry.an at gmail.com (Danilov Dmitry)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 18 22:41:22 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Russian abbreviation
Message-ID: <CAPqVmwmNBf=EL49Dh=d-EBSX-d3wS7-NGugKBnyJGEifZos=jA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Artur,

"????? ??????????????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ??? (???? ???)" *stands
 for* "Center of Civilizational and Regional Studies of Russian Academy of
Sciences"

"????????? ?????????, " *?????? ? ???????*. *?????? ? ??????? ????????????
??????* *? ?????????? ???????????? ????????"* *stands for * "Alexander
 Agadjanian", "Foundations and Limits of the Sacralization of Power in
Buddhist Political Tradition".

*Quotation in Russian:*
?????? ? ???????. ?????? ? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ? ??????????
????????. ? ?. ??????????, ?. ????????, ?. ????????, ???. ????????????
?????? ? ???????             ???????????. ??????, ????? ??????????????? ?
???????????? ????????????, 2005, ????? 3, 149-180.

* Quotation in English:*
Dharma and Empire: Foundations and Limits of the Sacralization of Power in
Buddhist
Political Tradition. A Chapter in D. Bondarenko, A. Korotaev, eds.,
Sacralization of Power in the History of Civilizations, 2005, Vol. 2,
149-180 (in Russian).

Best,
Danilov Dmitry
+380676242453
https://filosof.academia.edu/DanilovDmitry


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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 02:48:25 2018
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 08:18:25 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?=
In-Reply-To: <mv0mmn23j9mru7dns1qokb6a.1538533114934@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5bb42dff.1c69fb81.72e97.72e1@mx.google.com>

I am enchanted to relish this shloka? full? of extreme and exclusive bhakti.I felt earlier your bhakti is mixed with divine knowledge but this one revealed your pure(unmixed)Bhakti?that is surrendering and rare and is noteworthy that these people are very very dear to ShriKrishna.Pranamami.Girish K.Jha


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> Date: 10/2/18  10:35 AM  (GMT+05:30) To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>, Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvparishat at googlegroups.com>, e-shabda-charcha-peeth <e-shabda-charcha-peeth at googlegroups.com>, Jayaram Sethuraman <sethu at stat.fsu.edu>, Ranjana Date <ranjanadate51 at gmail.com>, Indira Peterson <indira.p19 at gmail.com>, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com> Subject: {???????????????????} Continuing my Krishna verses 
Continuing my Krishna verses:
?????? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????? ???????I will go in the world lead by you.  You are my movement.  O Lord, where shall I go leaving you?
Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California]



-- 

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "???????????????????" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Oct  3 13:02:56 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 13:02:56 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] makhi and tubaki
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B7734B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear all,
In his sources (VOC archives) a colleague-historian comes across a name Tryambaka Makhi. The meaning of makhi, from makha, is clear. What he would like to know is what this "suffix" says about the person, for instance if he is a brahmin? Another, maybe related, question is if this makhi stays within the family and is passed on from father to son.
In the same material he comes across the name Tubaki Anandappa Nayaka. Tubaki stands for Tamil tupp?kki, meaning "pistol". The combination Tubaki NN reminds me of that of Pistolen Paultje (Paultje, Little Paul), a Dutch criminal, well-known (and admired, as if he was a Robin Hood, which he wasn't) in the sixties of the last century. However, could tubaki also means something like "infantrist, foot-soldier"
With kind regards, Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Oct  3 14:08:21 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 07:08:21 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzefuAFnQGZYNCi4KXzOFNfad9-c+-WkUGZyAvDjGcr9_w@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

?????? ?? ?????????? ????????????? ?? ?
??? ????? ???????? ?????? ?????????????? ???????
Your company is the provision for my journey. What else do I have? With
you, the provider of all, always being with me, I don?t need anything else.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 15:04:42 2018
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 11:04:42 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] makhi and tubaki
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B7734B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAHA53YBKQxx0YrJ+KSFepRzLk+_7D6L9=F+VVx+s=9sZhd-Seg@mail.gmail.com>

In Telugu, there are still many people with the family name of tup?ki
or tup?kula
(genitive of plural tup?ki). It is possible that someone in their family
was in-charge of pistols (at least they claim their ancestors were
in-charge of pistols). Furthermore, ce?ji kri??appa n?yakkar (??????
?????????? ????????) is referred in some Telugu texts are tup?kula r?ya?u.

makha is sacrifice, and makhi is referred to the sacrifier, and it is
definitely a title given to brahmins conducting sacrifices.

Regards,
Suresh.
Atlanta, GA.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:03 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
> In his sources (VOC archives) a colleague-historian comes across a name
> Tryambaka Makhi. The meaning of makhi, from makha, is clear. What he would
> like to know is what this "suffix" says about the person, for instance if
> he is a brahmin? Another, maybe related, question is if this makhi stays
> within the family and is passed on from father to son.
> In the same material he comes across the name Tubaki Anandappa Nayaka.
> Tubaki stands for Tamil tupp?kki, meaning "pistol". The combination Tubaki
> NN reminds me of that of Pistolen Paultje (Paultje, Little Paul), a Dutch
> criminal, well-known (and admired, as if he was a Robin Hood, which he
> wasn't) in the sixties of the last century. However, could tubaki also
> means something like "infantrist, foot-soldier"
> With kind regards, Herman
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Oct  3 16:53:44 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 09:53:44 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] makhi and tubaki
In-Reply-To: <CAHA53YBKQxx0YrJ+KSFepRzLk+_7D6L9=F+VVx+s=9sZhd-Seg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcfkZP+y5fsdfSSCAZ-cUt8GF=O0=eF5uXj7_=brMzn6Q@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if Telugu tup?ki is related to the Marathi word ??? "cannon."  The
family of one of my ancestors was in charge of cannons in Gwalior and
earned the family name ?????????, where, I am told, the word Jinsi refers
to cannon-balls.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:05 AM Suresh Kolichala via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> In Telugu, there are still many people with the family name of tup?ki or
> tup?kula (genitive of plural tup?ki). It is possible that someone in
> their family was in-charge of pistols (at least they claim their ancestors
> were in-charge of pistols). Furthermore, ce?ji kri??appa n?yakkar (??????
> ?????????? ????????) is referred in some Telugu texts are tup
> ?kula r?ya?u.
>
> makha is sacrifice, and makhi is referred to the sacrifier, and it is
> definitely a title given to brahmins conducting sacrifices.
>
> Regards,
> Suresh.
> Atlanta, GA.
>
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:03 AM Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> In his sources (VOC archives) a colleague-historian comes across a name
>> Tryambaka Makhi. The meaning of makhi, from makha, is clear. What he would
>> like to know is what this "suffix" says about the person, for instance if
>> he is a brahmin? Another, maybe related, question is if this makhi stays
>> within the family and is passed on from father to son.
>> In the same material he comes across the name Tubaki Anandappa Nayaka.
>> Tubaki stands for Tamil tupp?kki, meaning "pistol". The combination Tubaki
>> NN reminds me of that of Pistolen Paultje (Paultje, Little Paul), a Dutch
>> criminal, well-known (and admired, as if he was a Robin Hood, which he
>> wasn't) in the sixties of the last century. However, could tubaki also
>> means something like "infantrist, foot-soldier"
>> With kind regards, Herman
>>
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 17:46:15 2018
From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 13:46:15 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] makhi and tubaki
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcfkZP+y5fsdfSSCAZ-cUt8GF=O0=eF5uXj7_=brMzn6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHA53YDq-897gq8KUesopsqbO9OeYrxkxRVMOZATj5g5WiyrVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 12:54 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> I wonder if Telugu tup?ki is related to the Marathi word ??? "cannon."
> The family of one of my ancestors was in charge of cannons in Gwalior and
> earned the family name ?????????, where, I am told, the word Jinsi refers
> to cannon-balls.
>

Yes. I believe they are all related. In Telugu *t?p(h)-???na* is still used
to refer a storehouse of guns. But  *t?ph *used only for canons.  There is
another persian word  *tupak *to refer to a musket. I believe Telugu/Tamil
tup?ki came from the Persian word. Another word *tamanca* is also used in
Telugu for pistols, which also has a corresponding word in Persian.

???? *tufang,* A musket
 ??? tupak, A musket
????? tamancha, A pistol.
(From Steingass, Francis Joseph. *A Comprehensive Persian-English
dictionary)*

I am not sure, but I think some of these words have a Turkish origin. Other
knowledgeable people on this list perhaps can explain.

Regards,
Suresh.


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From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu  Wed Oct  3 20:33:55 2018
From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 18 22:33:55 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP: BDRC Occasional Papers in Buddhist Studies (BOPBS)
Message-ID: <CADKD_zi=koOYCab_RtBMBV9jLCz=T7irO_XjgZcOjTtMq2S49g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends and colleagues,

Please forgive any cross-posting. Below find the CFP for a new publication
series focussing on Buddhist Studies. Submissions from folk working on
Sanskrit or Pali material is quite encouraged.

All best,
Charles

Call for Papers:

BDRC Occasional Papers in Buddhist Studies (BOPBS)

On behalf of the Buddhist Digital Resource Center (BDRC
<https://www.tbrc.org/#!footer/about/newhome>), we are pleased to invite
academic papers on all facets of Buddhist Studies for the inaugural
publication of the BDRC Occasional Papers in Buddhist Studies (BOPBS)
series. BOPBS is an online, open access, peer-reviewed academic publication
series that will be one component of BDRC?s next-generation Linked Open
Data platform known as the Buddhist Universal Digital Archive (BUDA). The
BOPBS series provides the many scholars who cooperate with and contribute
to BDRC and use the material we have targeted for preservation with a venue
to publish the work resulting from their use of BDRC?s resources as well as
other original research. The series is edited and reviewed by scholars on
BDRC?s Board of Advisors and is professionally copy-edited ensuring digital
academic publications of a high caliber that are of immediate use to all
Buddhist Studies scholars and interested parties.

The series covers the following areas:

Papers on all aspects of Buddhist Studies in relation to primary textual
sources in any of the known languages of Buddhist textual transmission will
be considered for publication including but not limited to work on:
Buddhist literature, narrative studies, philology, codicology, epigraphy,
textual studies, textual collections, textual preservation, Digital
Humanities, methodological issues found within Buddhist Studies as it
relates to Buddhist literature, or either classical or digital approaches
to the study of any of the aforementioned topics. Critical editions and/or
translations of Buddhist texts are also encouraged.

Editorial Board

Stefan Baums

Marcus Bingenheimer

Jowita Kramer

Todd Lewis

Alexander von Rospatt

Vesna Wallace

Date of publication: BOPBS is currently inviting papers for Volume 1
scheduled to be published in Summer 2019.

Submission deadline: Drafts should be submitted by March 1, 2019. Authors
are welcome to contact the editor before the submission deadline.

Submission guidelines: All submissions should be sent in both MS Word (or
equivalent) and PDF format. Formatting should follow the latest edition of
the Chicago Manual of Style. While there is no page limit, submissions
should generally fall within 5,000?10,000 words. Authors wishing to submit
a substantially longer paper are encouraged to contact the editor.
Contributions for subsequent volumes will be accepted on a rolling basis
and will be considered as they arrive for the next available upcoming
volume. Please include a brief biographical note (50?100 words) with your
submission. Send your manuscript, proposals for potential works relevant to
the series that are still in the planning stage, and questions to the
editor, Charles DiSimone at disimone at tbrc.org.


-- 
Dr. des. Charles DiSimone | Research Scholar
Buddhist Digital Resource Center ????????
tbrc.org


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From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de  Thu Oct  4 10:01:06 2018
From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 18 12:01:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Post-doc position: history of Malayalam mathematics
In-Reply-To: <9795f6f3-23c8-48e2-3ad0-52c3ce4eab02@gess.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <3C5CFE1F-9695-4875-AB1A-633E774D192C@uni-tuebingen.de>


> Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht:
> 
> Von: Wagner Roy <roy.wagner at gess.ethz.ch>
> Betreff: Post-doc position: history of Malayalam mathematics
> Datum: 4. Oktober 2018 um 11:48:13 MESZ
> An: <heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de>
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> In the attachment and the link below you'll find the details for a post-doc position dedicated to the research of the history Malayalm mathematics.
> The position will be hosted by my chair at the ETH Zurich, has a duration of up to 4 years, and will starting during the first half of 2019.
> If we can't find an excellent post-doc, we will consider also candidates for doctoral studies.
> Please distribute wherever you think may be relevant.
> 
> All the best, Roy Wagner.
> 
> Browser: https://apply.refline.ch/845721/6576/pub/1/index.html <https://apply.refline.ch/845721/6576/pub/1/index.html> 
> Mobile: https://m.refline.ch/845721/6576/pub/1/index.html <https://m.refline.ch/845721/6576/pub/1/index.html>
>  
> 
>  





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From desimonedaniela at yahoo.it  Thu Oct  4 13:37:57 2018
From: desimonedaniela at yahoo.it (Daniela De Simone)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 18 13:37:57 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book --- Giovanni Verardi 'The Gods and the Heretics: Crisis and Ruin of Indian Buddhism'
In-Reply-To: <1185990074.5976654.1538660277619.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1185990074.5976654.1538660277619@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Colleagues,
On behalf of the author, I would like to bring to your attention the publication of a substantially revised edition of Giovanni Verardi?s Hardships and Downfall of Buddhism in India (New Delhi 2011).
The book is now titled The Gods and the Heretics: Crisis and Ruin of Indian Buddhism, and has come out with Aditya Prakashan in New Delhi, co-published with the Fundaci?n Bodhiy?na (Buenos Aires).http://www.adityaprakashan.com/index.php?p=sr&Field=isbn&Exactly=yes&Format=detail&String=9788193462164

Best regards,
Daniela De Simone
Dr. Daniela De SimoneProject CuratorBeyond Boundaries: Religion, Region, Language and the StateERC Synergy Project
Department of AsiaT +44 (0)20 7323 8776ddesimone at britishmuseum.org??The British MuseumGreat Russell Street, London WC1B 3DGwww.britishmuseum.org?


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 00:51:18 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 18 18:51:18 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] post doc position advertisement
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cfc08p2e3So1CaEUMzDNVMXTwCFtRxAGo++C-4+tv77Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded from Prof. Roy Wagner (recent HSSA article
<https://doi.org/10.18732/hssa.v6i0.23>).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From the first half of 2019, the Chair of History and Philosophy of
Mathematical Sciences at ETH Zurich, is offering a Post-Doc/Doctoral
Student position for the ?*History of* *vernacular Mathematics in medieval
South India*? project

The candidate will research Malayalam mathematical manuscripts reflecting
mathematical practice in late Medieval Kerala for up to four years. The
scope of the project ranges from elementary and practical mathematics to
the work of the Kerala School of mathematical astronomy. The research
involves analyzing the texts in the contexts of their practical-historical
setting and producing editions and research papers. It will be conducted in
the framework of the chair for the History and Philosophy of Mathematical
Sciences at the ETH and in cooperation with scholars in India.

The successful candidate must have a very high level of literacy in
Malayalam, including older forms of Malayalam, as well as academic training
in history, mathematics, and/or Malayalam literature/linguistics. Fluency
in spoken English and proficiency in written English is also a requirement.
Training or proficiency in any of the following is an advantage: Sanskrit,
Tamil, history of mathematics/astronomy, history of medieval/pre-colonial
south India, Dravidian linguistics. Post-doctoral candidates are preferred,
but if no excellent post-doctoral candidates are found, candidates for
doctoral studies will also be considered. The salary will be paid according
to ETH standards.

We look forward to receiving your online application including a CV and
one-page letter of motivation describing your background, training, and
interest in the project until November 15, 2018. Early applications are
encouraged. Further materials (publications, reference letters, etc.) may
be requested later. Please note that we exclusively accept applications
submitted through our online application portal. Applications via email or
postal services will not be considered.

For further information about the the Chair of History and Philosophy of
Mathematical Sciences, please visit our website
www.hpm.ethz.ch/the-group.html. Questions regarding the position should be
directed to Prof. Roy Wagner by email roy.wagner at gess.ethz.ch (no
applications).

Apply now


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Oct  5 13:37:04 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 18 06:37:04 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzepmLeDphznwFxwXExqvK1DnaYeuEW3dct3yjHivpAVJA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

????? ?????????????? ??????? ???? ?? ?
????? ???????? ? ?? ?????????????? ???????: ???????
O Krishna, I follow you, and I will carry out your words. I do not have
anyone else in the world to show me the path.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From vglyssenko at yandex.ru  Sat Oct  6 06:55:15 2018
From: vglyssenko at yandex.ru (Viktoria Lysenko)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 18 09:55:15 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf of Shoryu Katsura 1993
Message-ID: <9556651538808915@myt6-add70abb4f02.qloud-c.yandex.net>


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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 10:45:00 2018
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 18 16:15:00 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for an article
Message-ID: <CAJz4T_7Can7d0q3COwc2R2=2QK-E9E3SeB4s29Y=uTeOduZPxA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

Greetings! Would someone happen to have a PDF of the following article:

Choudhuri, Indra Nath. ?Verfremdung of Brecht and Rasa in Theatre and its
Validity.? In Lexet litterae: Studies in Honour of Professor Oscar Botto.
Edited by S. Lienhard and I. Piovano, 125?139. Alessandria, Italy: Edizioni
dell?Orso, 1997.


Thanks very much in advance and the help would be much appreciated.

Mrinal
------
Mrinal Kaul, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor - Manipal Centre for Humanities (MCH)
Coordinator - Centre for Religious Studies (CRS)
Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex
Alevoor Road, Manipal 576 104
Karnataka, INDIA
Tel +91-820-29-23567 Extn: 23567
https://iuo.academia.edu/MrinalKaul
email: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu


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From vglyssenko at yandex.ru  Sat Oct  6 11:34:05 2018
From: vglyssenko at yandex.ru (Viktoria Lysenko)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 18 14:34:05 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf of Shoryu Katsura 1993
In-Reply-To: <9556651538808915@myt6-add70abb4f02.qloud-c.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <2091731538825645@myt5-9da6df248f4a.qloud-c.yandex.net>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Oct  6 13:48:51 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 18 06:48:51 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcnO8LxPCoKhnRiz+-6RCBAqk4J+r4s8hqjkzbkdjg_=g@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

?????? ?? ???????: ???????? ???????: ?
????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ????? ????? ???????
My provision is Govinda, and Madhusudana is my path. I am Madhava, the
traveler, and I am going to my own home.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk  Sat Oct  6 17:08:34 2018
From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 18 17:08:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Balarama behind a rock
Message-ID: <HE1PR02MB3212FBE08E8A63CC82F8B9BC8CE40@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,

Can anyone tell me the source of the detail that while Krishna was enjoying himself with the gopis, Balarama was watching from behind a rock?

Many thanks ...

Simon Brodbeck
Cardiff University


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Oct  8 02:49:23 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 18 19:49:23 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeuqG_gNF_g037wG7vzHx4v3Tkxf+K_aDwBRhvAMPyzAg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ???: ?
????????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????
O Krishna, you are in my heart.  I listen to your sweet words.  Your names
are on my lips and your hand is in my hand.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From dominik.haas at univie.ac.at  Mon Oct  8 08:00:00 2018
From: dominik.haas at univie.ac.at (Dominik Haas)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 18 10:00:00 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cohesive devices in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <e0c277b6-6df2-779f-a6c2-1cbeb29df765@univie.ac.at>

Dear list members,

does anyone know about studies on cohesive devices in the Sanskrit 
language?

Many thanks...

Best regards,
Dominik Haas




__________________
*Dominik Haas, BA MA*
dominik.haas at univie.ac.at <mailto:dominik.haas at univie.ac.at>
ORCID: 0000-0002-8505-6112 <https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8505-6112>
academia.edu/DominikHaas <univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas>

/Infodienst/
*Fachbereichsbibliothek S?dasien-, *
*Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde*
Universit?tsbibliothek Wien
Spitalgasse 2-4
1090 Wien
t +43-1-4277-16571
bibliothek.univie.ac.at/fb-suedasien_tibet_buddhismuskunde/ 
<https://bibliothek.univie.ac.at/fb-suedasien_tibet_buddhismuskunde/>
bibliothek.univie.ac.at/ <https://bibliothek.univie.ac.at/>
facebook.com/ub.wien/ <http://www.facebook.com/ub.wien/>


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From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 10:21:35 2018
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 18 12:21:35 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cohesive devices in Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <e0c277b6-6df2-779f-a6c2-1cbeb29df765@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <5879caf3-2607-7085-06a7-7780093ef69d@gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,

usually I consult Bertold DELBR?CK, Altindische Syntax (1888).

There is a OCR-pdf of this book at Gretil.

Best

Heiner


Am 08.10.2018 um 10:00 schrieb Dominik Haas via INDOLOGY:
>
> Dear list members,
>
> does anyone know about studies on cohesive devices in the Sanskrit 
> language?
>
> Many thanks...
>
> Best regards,
> Dominik Haas
>
>
>
>
> __________________
> *Dominik Haas, BA MA*
> dominik.haas at univie.ac.at <mailto:dominik.haas at univie.ac.at>
> ORCID: 0000-0002-8505-6112 <https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8505-6112>
> academia.edu/DominikHaas <univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas>
>
> /Infodienst/
> *Fachbereichsbibliothek S?dasien-, *
> *Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde*
> Universit?tsbibliothek Wien
> Spitalgasse 2-4
> 1090 Wien
> t +43-1-4277-16571
> bibliothek.univie.ac.at/fb-suedasien_tibet_buddhismuskunde/ 
> <https://bibliothek.univie.ac.at/fb-suedasien_tibet_buddhismuskunde/>
> bibliothek.univie.ac.at/ <https://bibliothek.univie.ac.at/>
> facebook.com/ub.wien/ <http://www.facebook.com/ub.wien/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



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From dcgunkel at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 12:01:10 2018
From: dcgunkel at gmail.com (Dieter Gunkel)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 18 08:01:10 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Cohesive devices in Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <5879caf3-2607-7085-06a7-7780093ef69d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADVOX37LLweDi_jZOojXRAuos5+mwXWmPSFFae9Z4MrgGz5vsg@mail.gmail.com>

See also

Hock, Hans Heinrich. 2016. "Narrative Linkage in Sanskrit." In *Sahasram
Ati Srajas: Indo-Iranian and Indo-European Studies in Honor of Stephanie W.
Jamison*, ed. Dieter Gunkel, Joshua T. Katz, Brent Vine, and Michael Weiss,
120?134. Ann Arbor: Beech Stave Press.

which contains plentiful further references, both to classics such as
Delbr?ck and to more recent studies.

All the best,

Dieter

On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 6:22 AM Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
>
> usually I consult Bertold DELBR?CK, Altindische Syntax (1888).
>
> There is a OCR-pdf of this book at Gretil.
>
> Best
>
> Heiner
>
> Am 08.10.2018 um 10:00 schrieb Dominik Haas via INDOLOGY:
>
> Dear list members,
>
> does anyone know about studies on cohesive devices in the Sanskrit
> language?
>
> Many thanks...
>
> Best regards,
> Dominik Haas
>
>
>
> __________________
> *Dominik Haas, BA MA*
> dominik.haas at univie.ac.at
> ORCID: 0000-0002-8505-6112 <https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8505-6112>
> academia.edu/DominikHaas <http://univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas>
>
> *Infodienst*
> * Fachbereichsbibliothek S?dasien-, *
> *Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde*
> Universit?tsbibliothek Wien
> Spitalgasse 2-4
> 1090 Wien
> t +43-1-4277-16571
> bibliothek.univie.ac.at/fb-suedasien_tibet_buddhismuskunde/
> bibliothek.univie.ac.at/
> facebook.com/ub.wien/ <http://www.facebook.com/ub.wien/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> -- www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From sloubem at wwu.edu  Mon Oct  8 23:41:59 2018
From: sloubem at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 18 23:41:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tenure-track Position: Assistant Professor in South Asian History at Western Washington University
Message-ID: <e7e5f929-0971-1d14-36e1-5301dc715735@wwu.edu>

Dear Colleagues,

On behalf of my colleagues in the History Department, I call your 
attention to the following job posting for a tenure-track position in 
South Asian History (broadly defined).? Please see the link for further 
details:

http://employment.wwu.edu/cw/en-us/job/496154/assistant-professor-of-south-asian-history

Application review is scheduled to commence November 11, 2018.

Thank you,

Michael

?
Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
Dept. of Liberal Studies
Western Washington University





From Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu  Tue Oct  9 01:05:11 2018
From: Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 01:05:11 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tenure-track Position: Assistant Professor in South Asian History at Western Washington University
Message-ID: <CY4PR02MB32852FE02F5DDF4836C26E74ECE70@CY4PR02MB3285.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>

(Resending this due to mail filter error)

Dear Colleagues,

On behalf of my colleagues in the History Department, I call your attention to the following job posting for a tenure-track position in South Asian History (broadly defined).  Please see the link for further details:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Femployment.wwu.edu%2Fcw%2Fen-us%2Fjob%2F496154%2Fassistant-professor-of-south-asian-history&amp;data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Slouber%40wwu.edu%7C0fceb970a0af4601f71f08d62d82fac4%7Cdc46140ce26f43efb0ae00f257f478ff%7C0%7C0%7C636746437909565928&amp;sdata=hRFta6T5Wunw7ZDBuqnldTcfV4CQwp2rxOp2M%2BMOsps%3D&amp;reserved=0

Application review is scheduled to commence November 11, 2018.

Thank you,

Michael

?
Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
Dept. of Liberal Studies
Western Washington University




From jonathan.edelmann at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 01:15:33 2018
From: jonathan.edelmann at gmail.com (Jonathan Edelmann)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 18 21:15:33 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
Message-ID: <4C293BD2-11EF-4AC9-8AC6-E517772297BE@gmail.com>

Greetings,

Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on the identification of soma in the ?gveda with Amanita muscaria? I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Edelmann

Jonathan Edelmann ? Assistant Professor
University of Florida ? Department of Religion


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From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk  Tue Oct  9 01:35:21 2018
From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 01:35:21 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <4C293BD2-11EF-4AC9-8AC6-E517772297BE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54457336-68DA-4C55-B6EE-D64038054AD7@cardiff.ac.uk>

It's few years old by now (2004) but vol.9 no.1 of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies was a special issue edited by Jan Houben on the Soma-Haoma question, with articles by Jan Houben, C.C. Bakels, Viktor Sarianidi and George Thompson.

It doesn?t seem to be available at present from the EJVS website at http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/, but Jan?s article is on his academia.edu<http://academia.edu> site at https://www.academia.edu/5425231/The_Soma-Haoma_problem_Introductory_overview_and_observations_on_the_discussion._Electronic_Journal_of_Vedic_Studies_9.1 and there are links to related papers there.

Some people on the list may know whether the rest of the issue is still somewhere on the web.

Best wishes

Geoffrey



On 9 Oct 2018, at 12:15, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Greetings,

Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on the identification of soma in the ?gveda with Amanita muscaria? I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Edelmann

Jonathan Edelmann ? Assistant Professor
University of Florida ? Department of Religion
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 01:37:46 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 18 19:37:46 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <4C293BD2-11EF-4AC9-8AC6-E517772297BE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeBJRyw8Ugmepx-b-CCai7gYSOe5UtTW=CZVzEaA+qX3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Matthew Clarke's book, *The Tawny One*
<https://www.sunypress.edu/p-6425-the-tawny-one.aspx>, is the most recent
reconsideration of Soma's identity that I know of.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 at 19:16, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on the
> identification of *soma* in the ?gveda with *Amanita muscaria*? I?m aware
> of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help appreciated.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jonathan Edelmann
>
> Jonathan Edelmann ? Assistant Professor
> University of Florida ? Department of Religion
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From antonio.jardim at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 02:33:23 2018
From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 12:33:23 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <54457336-68DA-4C55-B6EE-D64038054AD7@cardiff.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAGDOqfocqPg7+dipgN31E-K2goDFft73MF33LoSpcrB6Phr4Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jonathan,

I would also recommend Prof Harry Falk:
https://www.academia.edu/2097761/Soma_I_and_II
https://www.academia.edu/3569584/more_on_Soma

& Prof Albrecht Wezler's chapter in Aldous Huxley Between East and
West edited by C. C. Barfoot:
"Psychadelic Drugs as Means to Mystical Experience" pp.191ff
(should be available on Google Books in your region)

Kind regards,
Antonio
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 12:34 PM Geoffrey Samuel via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> It's few years old by now (2004) but vol.9 no.1 of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies was a special issue edited by Jan Houben on the Soma-Haoma question, with articles by Jan Houben, C.C. Bakels, Viktor Sarianidi and George Thompson.
>
> It doesn?t seem to be available at present from the EJVS website at http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/, but Jan?s article is on his academia.edu site at https://www.academia.edu/5425231/The_Soma-Haoma_problem_Introductory_overview_and_observations_on_the_discussion._Electronic_Journal_of_Vedic_Studies_9.1 and there are links to related papers there.
>
> Some people on the list may know whether the rest of the issue is still somewhere on the web.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Geoffrey
>
>
>
> On 9 Oct 2018, at 12:15, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on the identification of soma in the ?gveda with Amanita muscaria? I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help appreciated.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jonathan Edelmann
>
> Jonathan Edelmann ? Assistant Professor
> University of Florida ? Department of Religion
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From alanus1216 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  9 03:10:28 2018
From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 03:10:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <4C293BD2-11EF-4AC9-8AC6-E517772297BE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <234643002.6673725.1539054628951@mail.yahoo.com>

Do any of the authors mentioned discuss the testimony of the mycological literature as to where Amanita muscaria is found and relate it to where the Rgveda is thought to have been composed?
Allen


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From manjushree42 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 04:49:00 2018
From: manjushree42 at gmail.com (Manjushree Hegde)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 10:19:00 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Participation: 7-day textual workshop on Madhusudana Sarasvati's Sidhhantabindu
In-Reply-To: <CANrUQiRBoMj5O9wvwqW_QtKnqAVy6+5fKDnTJb4gO7kqF=zKjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANrUQiQtPLAQc7WpX+o7Uu2rKk0kfjsrZ4g9bUr8Dy4EcTG0uw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,


We are pleased to announce that Amrita Darshanam ? International Centre for
Spiritual Studies ? in association  with Indian Council for Philosophical
Research (ICPR) is organizing a 7-day textual workshop on Madhus?dana
Sarasvat??s *Siddh?ntabindu *between 10-16 November 2018 in Amrita Vishwa
Vidyapeetham, Coimbatore.


*Siddh?ntabindu* or *Siddh?ntatattvabindu* is Madhus?dana Sarasvat??s
commentary on ?ri ?ankar?c?rya?s *Da?a?lok?*, also known as the
*Cid?nandastavar?ja* or *Cid?nandada?a?lok?* or *Nirv??ada?aka*. The text
presents all the basic principles of *advaita* in the prima facie views and
their refutations, and is a reliable and comprehensive digest of *advaita
ved?nta*.


The workshop will be conducted be renowned scholars:


*(a)   **Prof. Kutumba Sastry,*

Former Vice Chancellor, Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan,

President, IASS


*(b)   **Prof. V.N. Jha*

Former Director, Centre of Advanced Studies in Sanskrit, Pune

Founder Chairperson, Special Centre for Sanskrit Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru
University.


*(c)    * *Prof. K. Ramasubramanian*

Professor, Indian Science and Technology in Sanskrit, Department of
Humanitites and Social Sciences, IIT Bombay.


*(d)   **Prof. Ramachandra G Bhat*

Vice Chancellor, S-VYASA,


*(e)    **Prof. **K. Srinivasan*

Former Principal, Ramakrishna Mission Vivekananda College, Chennai.



The workshop is open to all interested.


Registration is free but compulsory.

To register, visit:
https://www.amrita.edu/event/seven-day-textual-workshop-madhus-dana-sarasvat-s-siddh-ntabindu


Kindly refer to the attached brochure for further information.


Apologies for cross-posting.



Best,

Manjushree Hegde,

Assistant Professor,

Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Coimbatore.


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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Tue Oct  9 10:45:22 2018
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 12:45:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <234643002.6673725.1539054628951@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbq0jphYCZoynpZdzYy_jdnmgP4Y68edApBZDBEM_5Jm3w@mail.gmail.com>

https://crossasia-journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/ejvs/article/view/2150

Best,

Joanna

---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


wt., 9 pa? 2018 o 05:11 Allen Thrasher via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> Do any of the authors mentioned discuss the testimony of the mycological
> literature as to where Amanita muscaria is found and relate it to where the
> Rgveda is thought to have been composed?
>
> Allen
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Tue Oct  9 12:48:59 2018
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 12:48:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP: Special Issue on Mahayana
Message-ID: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700111D61C40@tabvmexdag1mb06.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>

Dear Colleagues,



While the past few decades have shown remarkable advances in our knowledge of Mahayana Buddhism, much of the work has attempted to mine early sources for their bearing on what modern scholars understand to be the general category of ?Mahayana Buddhism.? But when the term ?Mahayana? or its tokens (bodhisattvas, mandalals, etc.) appear in texts, inscriptions or contemporary discussions Mahayana sometimes marks a distinction from something else (i.e. from other Buddhist or non-Buddhist doctrines or practices) and sometimes is simply an epithet for Buddhism itself. Either way, the attempt to distinguish or not distinguish Mahayana is strategic and serves to get something done for those engaging it. This special issue of Religions is devoted to what the Mahayana distinction means or meant to Buddhists themselves, and seeks essays tracing the genealogies of the Mahayana distinction in specific loci of power (as reflected in texts or in material culture) in order to bring to light the variety of local issues and interests at stake in the association (or disassociation) with the movement.



Allow me to give a brief example. On February 25, 1978 Sri Lankan President J.R. Jayawardene presided over a ceremony placing an eleven-foot bronze pinnacle on top of the newly constructed ?Peace Pagoda? near Adam?s Peak. The Pagoda was a joint project, designed and funded in part by a Japanese Nichiren association. At the opening ceremony, attended by some six hundred Japanese monks, Jayawardene delivered a speech in which he stated, ?The two creeds - Mah?y?na and Therav?da - do not have much difference except in rituals. The Japanese follow the teachings [of the Buddha] in pristine glory.?  Twelve years later, a Sri Lankan Siyam Nikaya monk named Palpola Vipassi who had been prominent in promoting and raising funds for the Pagoda project, flew to Japan to be initiated into the ma??alas of Shingon Buddhism. According to Ananda Abeysekara, Vipassi?s ?conversion? received considerable media attention, and, ?Soon the report was interpreted by a number of monks as an attempt by Vipassi and Japanese temples to introduce Mahayana Buddhism to Sri Lanka and wipe out the ?pure? (nirmala) Theravada Buddhist tradition.? The Theravada monk Labugama Lankananda, the head of Vipassi?s former monastic fraternity, characterized the threat facing Sri Lanka as ?the terror of the Mahayana? (mah?y?na bh?shanaya), and within days, posters stating ?Let us Terminate the Terror of the Mahayana? popped up throughout Colombo,? igniting a nation-wide debate involving monks, politicians, and lay Buddhists.



One of Abeysekara?s arguments is that the concept ?Mahayana? has meaning only within its use at the intersection of specific debates vying for authority. The question of whether Mahayana is merely Buddhism itself or whether it is Buddhist anathema cannot therefore be addressed in the abstract. The meaning of the Mahayana distinction only achieves intelligibility by returning it to the specific uses in which we find it. Abeysekara adroitly demonstrates that the social judgements of identity between Mah?y?na and Therav?da and the competing rhetoric of the ?terror of Mah?y?na? occupied a strategic place at the intersection of the longstanding economic and political interests of each. Hence, the grouping the two together under the rubric of ?pristine Buddhism? by President Jayawardene cannot responsibly be removed from the locus of power described by his presidency, (particularly his interests in bolstering Japanese-Sinhala trade relations) just as the later emergence of the opposition to the threat of Mahayana has to be read against the backdrop of monastic disputes marking the changes in alliances with particular fraternities (parshavayas).



For this issue, I would like to ask for articles addressing the issue of how the Mahayana distinction was deployed in specific locales (?locale? can be functionally as large as Jayawardene?s Japan-Sri Lanka dialogue or as small as Vipassi?s Colombo). I invite contributions from text scholars, archaeologists, art-historians or anyone else working on Mahayana in any region.



Best,



-j


Joseph Walser

Associate Professor

Department of Religion

Tufts University

________________________________


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Oct  9 13:49:51 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 06:49:51 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcXq-tVa-68Vsv-91ka2Sd8DrO_1j-iMkPJ8dFvhcDh4w@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ?? ?????????????????? ??? ?? ?
?????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????????: ???????
O Lord, your lotus face blooms in my mind. With its vision, all the
modulations of my mind become quiet.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From whitakjl at wfu.edu  Tue Oct  9 16:13:47 2018
From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Whitaker, Jarrod L.)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 12:13:47 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1539100803.29621.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <8ba1f71b-36e8-80fc-8cc4-bb302e201d6e@wfu.edu>

I would recommend the following sources on Soma's identity (taken from 
my article ?Rig Veda.? Oxford Bibliographies ? Hinduism: 
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/obo/page/hinduism. August 30, 2016):

Falk, Harry. ?Soma I and II.? Bulletin of the School of Oriental and 
African Studies, University of London 52.1 (1989): 77?90.
Falk pays close attention to the descriptions of s?ma in the Rgveda and 
Avesta, and argues strongly for a type of ephedra for the identity and 
stimulant effects of the plant.
Flattery, David S., and Martin Schwartz. Haoma and Harmaline. Berkeley: 
University of California Press, 1989.
Argues for the identity of the s?ma and Avestan haoma as wild rue 
(Peganum harmala).
Houben, Jan E. M. ?The Soma-Haoma Problem: Introductory Overview and 
Observations on the discussion.? Edited by Jan E. M Houben. Electronic 
Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003).
In the most comprehensive study of its kind, Houben provides a detailed 
summary of past theories on the identity of the s?ma and its Avestan 
counterpart haoma and concludes that a type of ephedra is the best 
candidate for the plant.
Nicholson, Philip T. ?The Soma Code, Parts I?III.? Electronic Journal of 
Vedic Studies 8.3 (2002): 1?64.
Nicholson is concerned with the imagery of light and ecstatic visions in 
relation to drinking the substance.
Nyberg, Harri. ?The Problem of the Aryans and the Soma: The Botanical 
Evidence.? In The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material 
Culture and Ethnicity. Edited by George Erdosy, 382?406. Berlin: Walter 
de Gruyter, 1995.
Nyberg examines the botanical evidence for Central Asia, the Hindukush 
region, and northwest Pakistan/India, and concludes that ephedra-based 
plants are the best candidates for s?ma.
Staal, Frits. ?How a Psychoactive Substance Becomes a Ritual: The Case 
of Soma.? Social Research: Altered States of Consciousness 68.3 (2001): 
745?778.
Staal argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma since it 
plays a substantial role in generating visions for poets in the Rgveda.
Stuhrman, Rainer. ?Rgvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, 
pharmakolisch, in den Augen der Kavis.? Electronic Journal of Vedic 
Studies 13.1 (2006): 1?93.
Given the prevalence of light imagery in the text, Stuhrman argues for a 
hallucinogenic effect of s?ma.
Thompson, George. ?Soma and Ecstasy in the Rgveda.? Edited by Jan E. M. 
Houben. Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003).
Thompson argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma, 
particularly given its role in visions and out-of-body experiences, 
which may be attested in several Rgvedic hymns.
Wasson, R. Gordon. Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality. New York: 
Harcourt, Brace and World, 1968.
Perhaps the most famous view on the identity of the plant, Wasson argues 
that s?ma was the hallucinogenic fly agaric mushroom Amanita muscaria. 
Wasson?s conclusion, while still perpetuated by some academics and the 
wider media, is no longer thought to be credible by the vast majority of 
Vedic scholars.

JW

-- 

Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
Associate Professor,
Graduate Program Director,
Department for the Study of Religions.

Wake Forest University
P.O. Box 7212
Winston-Salem, NC 27109
whitakjl at wfu.edu
p 336.758.4162






From gthomgt at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 18:30:48 2018
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 14:30:48 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <8ba1f71b-36e8-80fc-8cc4-bb302e201d6e@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zt0V6OK7RLO3eCUKJnWEzvSZ9y4iXw7aki9E9UcgJ9N3A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jarrod,

Thanks for this extensive series of references.  I would like to add one
more:  "A Brief Anthology of hymns in the Rgveda Having to do With Soma
(and Shamanism)" written  by me and published by me in "On Meaning and
Mantras: Essays in Honor of Frits Staal", edited by me and Richard Payne,
published by the Institute of Buddhist Studies and BDK America, Inc. 2016.
By the way, there are lots of great articles in this volume.

Best wishes to all.

George Thompson



On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 12:14 PM Whitaker, Jarrod L. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I would recommend the following sources on Soma's identity (taken from
> my article ?Rig Veda.? Oxford Bibliographies ? Hinduism:
> http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/obo/page/hinduism. August 30, 2016):
>
> Falk, Harry. ?Soma I and II.? Bulletin of the School of Oriental and
> African Studies, University of London 52.1 (1989): 77?90.
> Falk pays close attention to the descriptions of s?ma in the Rgveda and
> Avesta, and argues strongly for a type of ephedra for the identity and
> stimulant effects of the plant.
> Flattery, David S., and Martin Schwartz. Haoma and Harmaline. Berkeley:
> University of California Press, 1989.
> Argues for the identity of the s?ma and Avestan haoma as wild rue
> (Peganum harmala).
> Houben, Jan E. M. ?The Soma-Haoma Problem: Introductory Overview and
> Observations on the discussion.? Edited by Jan E. M Houben. Electronic
> Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003).
> In the most comprehensive study of its kind, Houben provides a detailed
> summary of past theories on the identity of the s?ma and its Avestan
> counterpart haoma and concludes that a type of ephedra is the best
> candidate for the plant.
> Nicholson, Philip T. ?The Soma Code, Parts I?III.? Electronic Journal of
> Vedic Studies 8.3 (2002): 1?64.
> Nicholson is concerned with the imagery of light and ecstatic visions in
> relation to drinking the substance.
> Nyberg, Harri. ?The Problem of the Aryans and the Soma: The Botanical
> Evidence.? In The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material
> Culture and Ethnicity. Edited by George Erdosy, 382?406. Berlin: Walter
> de Gruyter, 1995.
> Nyberg examines the botanical evidence for Central Asia, the Hindukush
> region, and northwest Pakistan/India, and concludes that ephedra-based
> plants are the best candidates for s?ma.
> Staal, Frits. ?How a Psychoactive Substance Becomes a Ritual: The Case
> of Soma.? Social Research: Altered States of Consciousness 68.3 (2001):
> 745?778.
> Staal argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma since it
> plays a substantial role in generating visions for poets in the Rgveda.
> Stuhrman, Rainer. ?Rgvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch,
> pharmakolisch, in den Augen der Kavis.? Electronic Journal of Vedic
> Studies 13.1 (2006): 1?93.
> Given the prevalence of light imagery in the text, Stuhrman argues for a
> hallucinogenic effect of s?ma.
> Thompson, George. ?Soma and Ecstasy in the Rgveda.? Edited by Jan E. M.
> Houben. Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003).
> Thompson argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma,
> particularly given its role in visions and out-of-body experiences,
> which may be attested in several Rgvedic hymns.
> Wasson, R. Gordon. Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality. New York:
> Harcourt, Brace and World, 1968.
> Perhaps the most famous view on the identity of the plant, Wasson argues
> that s?ma was the hallucinogenic fly agaric mushroom Amanita muscaria.
> Wasson?s conclusion, while still perpetuated by some academics and the
> wider media, is no longer thought to be credible by the vast majority of
> Vedic scholars.
>
> JW
>
> --
>
> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor,
> Graduate Program Director,
> Department for the Study of Religions.
>
> Wake Forest University
> P.O. Box 7212
> Winston-Salem, NC 27109
> whitakjl at wfu.edu
> p 336.758.4162
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr  Tue Oct  9 21:39:30 2018
From: georges.pinault at wanadoo.fr (Georges PINAULT)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 23:39:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
Message-ID: <1095912131.21596.1539121170553.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m17>

?
Dear All,? The list of references provided by Jarod is excellent and nearly complete. I may add a little contribution of mine, that may escape notice: in "Further links between the Indo-Iranian substratum and the BMAC language", in B. Tikkanen & H. Hettrich, Themes and tasks in Old and Middle Indo-Aryan linguistics, Delhi, 2006, p. 167-196. I have devoted some argument (184-189) about the name RV aMSu-, which I consider as the genuine name of the plant, because soma- was actually the name of the juice. My etymology of aMSu- takes it as a colour name borrowed from a language of Central Asia, and referring? to the rusty red (brown) colour of the internal part of its stalk. All other colours attributed to th soma- in the RV are based on metaphors. This would support the identification as ephedra.?
?
This is a modest contribution to the debate. Best wishes, ? Georges-Jean Pinault?
?
?
> Message du 09/10/18 18:14> De : "Whitaker, Jarrod L. via INDOLOGY" > A : indology at list.indology.info> Copie ? : > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria> > I would recommend the following sources on Soma's identity (taken from my article ?Rig Veda.? Oxford Bibliographies ? Hinduism: http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/obo/page/hinduism. August 30, 2016): Falk, Harry. ?Soma I and II.? Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London 52.1 (1989): 77?90. Falk pays close attention to the descriptions of s?ma in the Rgveda and Avesta, and argues strongly for a type of ephedra for the identity and stimulant effects of the plant. Flattery, David S., and Martin Schwartz. Haoma and Harmaline. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989. Argues for the identity of the s?ma and Avestan haoma as wild rue (Peganum harmala). Houben, Jan E. M. ?The Soma-Haoma Problem: Introductory Overview and Observations on the discussion.? Edited by Jan E. M Houben. Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003). In the most comprehensive study of its kind, Houben provides a detailed summary of past theories on the identity of the s?ma and its Avestan counterpart haoma and concludes that a type of ephedra is the best candidate for the plant. Nicholson, Philip T. ?The Soma Code, Parts I?III.? Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 8.3 (2002): 1?64. Nicholson is concerned with the imagery of light and ecstatic visions in relation to drinking the substance. Nyberg, Harri. ?The Problem of the Aryans and the Soma: The Botanical Evidence.? In The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity. Edited by George Erdosy, 382?406. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1995. Nyberg examines the botanical evidence for Central Asia, the Hindukush region, and northwest Pakistan/India, and concludes that ephedra-based plants are the best candidates for s?ma. Staal, Frits. ?How a Psychoactive Substance Becomes a Ritual: The Case of Soma.? Social Research: Altered States of Consciousness 68.3 (2001): 745?778. Staal argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma since it plays a substantial role in generating visions for poets in the Rgveda. Stuhrman, Rainer. ?Rgvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, pharmakolisch, in den Augen der Kavis.? Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 13.1 (2006): 1?93. Given the prevalence of light imagery in the text, Stuhrman argues for a hallucinogenic effect of s?ma. Thompson, George. ?Soma and Ecstasy in the Rgveda.? Edited by Jan E. M. Houben. Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003). Thompson argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma, particularly given its role in visions and out-of-body experiences, which may be attested in several Rgvedic hymns. Wasson, R. Gordon. Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality. New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1968. Perhaps the most famous view on the identity of the plant, Wasson argues that s?ma was the hallucinogenic fly agaric mushroom Amanita muscaria. Wasson?s conclusion, while still perpetuated by some academics and the wider media, is no longer thought to be credible by the vast majority of Vedic scholars. JW -- Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Graduate Program Director, Department for the Study of Religions. Wake Forest University P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 22:05:46 2018
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 18:05:46 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <1095912131.21596.1539121170553.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m17>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zsBZCSS0bzhHHtg1F0F267YXYnyq3wyQZ+DCrkG2wsmrA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Georges-Jean,

In my paper published in the Staal memorial volume I also assert that the
original name of the Soma plant was aMSu, but I did not offer an etymology
of this term.  And I don't believe that the plant was an ephedra.

Best wishes,

George



On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:40 PM Georges PINAULT via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
>
> Dear All,  The list of references provided by Jarod is excellent and
> nearly complete. I may add a little contribution of mine, that may escape
> notice: in "Further links between the Indo-Iranian substratum and the BMAC
> language", in B. Tikkanen & H. Hettrich, Themes and tasks in Old and Middle
> Indo-Aryan linguistics, Delhi, 2006, p. 167-196. I have devoted some
> argument (184-189) about the name RV aMSu-, which I consider as the genuine
> name of the plant, because soma- was actually the name of the juice. My
> etymology of aMSu- takes it as a colour name borrowed from a language of
> Central Asia, and referring  to the rusty red (brown) colour of the
> internal part of its stalk. All other colours attributed to th soma- in the
> RV are based on metaphors. This would support the identification as
> ephedra.
>
>
>
> This is a modest contribution to the debate. Best wishes,   Georges-Jean
> Pinault
>
>
>
>
>
> > Message du 09/10/18 18:14
> > De : "Whitaker, Jarrod L. via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info>
> > A : indology at list.indology.info
> > Copie ? :
> > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
> >
> > I would recommend the following sources on Soma's identity (taken from
> my article ?Rig Veda.? Oxford Bibliographies ? Hinduism:
> http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/obo/page/hinduism. August 30, 2016):
> Falk, Harry. ?Soma I and II.? Bulletin of the School of Oriental and
> African Studies, University of London 52.1 (1989): 77?90. Falk pays close
> attention to the descriptions of s?ma in the Rgveda and Avesta, and argues
> strongly for a type of ephedra for the identity and stimulant effects of
> the plant. Flattery, David S., and Martin Schwartz. Haoma and Harmaline.
> Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989. Argues for the identity of
> the s?ma and Avestan haoma as wild rue (Peganum harmala). Houben, Jan E. M.
> ?The Soma-Haoma Problem: Introductory Overview and Observations on the
> discussion.? Edited by Jan E. M Houben. Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies
> 9.1 (2003). In the most comprehensive study of its kind, Houben provides a
> detailed summary of past theories on the identity of the s?ma and its
> Avestan counterpart haoma and concludes that a type of ephedra is the best
> candidate for the plant. Nicholson, Philip T. ?The Soma Code, Parts I?III.?
> Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 8.3 (2002): 1?64. Nicholson is
> concerned with the imagery of light and ecstatic visions in relation to
> drinking the substance. Nyberg, Harri. ?The Problem of the Aryans and the
> Soma: The Botanical Evidence.? In The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia:
> Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity. Edited by George Erdosy, 382?406.
> Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1995. Nyberg examines the botanical evidence for
> Central Asia, the Hindukush region, and northwest Pakistan/India, and
> concludes that ephedra-based plants are the best candidates for s?ma.
> Staal, Frits. ?How a Psychoactive Substance Becomes a Ritual: The Case of
> Soma.? Social Research: Altered States of Consciousness 68.3 (2001):
> 745?778. Staal argues for a hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma
> since it plays a substantial role in generating visions for poets in the
> Rgveda. Stuhrman, Rainer. ?Rgvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch,
> pharmakolisch, in den Augen der Kavis.? Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies
> 13.1 (2006): 1?93. Given the prevalence of light imagery in the text,
> Stuhrman argues for a hallucinogenic effect of s?ma. Thompson, George.
> ?Soma and Ecstasy in the Rgveda.? Edited by Jan E. M. Houben. Electronic
> Journal of Vedic Studies 9.1 (2003). Thompson argues for a
> hallucinogenic/psychedelic effect for s?ma, particularly given its role in
> visions and out-of-body experiences, which may be attested in several
> Rgvedic hymns. Wasson, R. Gordon. Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality. New
> York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1968. Perhaps the most famous view on the
> identity of the plant, Wasson argues that s?ma was the hallucinogenic fly
> agaric mushroom Amanita muscaria. Wasson?s conclusion, while still
> perpetuated by some academics and the wider media, is no longer thought to
> be credible by the vast majority of Vedic scholars. JW -- Jarrod Whitaker,
> Ph.D. Associate Professor, Graduate Program Director, Department for the
> Study of Religions. Wake Forest University P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC
> 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162
> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages
> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where
> you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 22:58:28 2018
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 15:58:28 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zsBZCSS0bzhHHtg1F0F267YXYnyq3wyQZ+DCrkG2wsmrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <356F92B9-7915-409C-A92D-2E23088EA9B6@gmail.com>

If this title is not there in the bibliographies of the books and articles mentioned so far:

Kashikar, C.G. 1990. Identification of Soma. Pune: Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapeetha. Research Series no. 7.



a.a.


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 23:27:18 2018
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 18 16:27:18 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Balarama behind a rock
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR02MB3212FBE08E8A63CC82F8B9BC8CE40@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <D7433DBF-7A34-420E-BB84-1BE4F4EA1ED3@gmail.com>

> On Oct 6, 2018, at 10:08 AM, Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>  
> Can anyone tell me the source of the detail that while Krishna was enjoying himself with the gopis, Balarama was watching from behind a rock?

Dear Simon,

The detail is more likely to have come from the oral tradition(s) of k?rtanak?ras or hari-kath?k?ras than from any written source. These performers are known to answer queries from the audience occasionally in a light-hearted way. The Hindu audience is ordinarily quite comfortable with the liberties they take in the middle of a serious, uplifting discourse. 

In the detail to which you refer ? Balar?ma watching intimacies without himself being seen ? may also  indicate a  liberal attitude toward voyeurism. 

It is also possible that the k?rtana or hari-kath? performer did not wish to come across as a deficient knower of the tradition. In other words, if the traditional sources did not raise a question that an inquisitive member of the audience thought of, he had the presence of mind to improvise an answer ? that he was not one who did not know answers to all questions.

A few statements about Balar?ma in a similar vein can be found on pp. 275-277, 319 (last 5 lines) of Lee Siegel's _Laughing Matters_ Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1987. 

a.a.






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From r.stuhrmann at t-online.de  Wed Oct 10 05:09:50 2018
From: r.stuhrmann at t-online.de (rainer stuhrmann)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 07:09:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zsBZCSS0bzhHHtg1F0F267YXYnyq3wyQZ+DCrkG2wsmrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55a3ea6f-7dad-8dd2-c6a4-d22ce2423805@t-online.de>

Dear George and Georges,

actually already Grassmann in his W?rterbuch on the very first page has 
taken aMSu- as the name of the plant:

?NamederPflanze,auswelcherderSomasaftgepresstwurde...Also:1)Somapflanze,..".

For a discussion of the word and related terms and also for further 
references to the literature, see my article
"Rigvedische Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, pharmakologisch, in den 
Augen der Kavis"
(Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (EJVS) 13-1, April 2006, 1-93.) 
p.22ff,
for a discussion of all the colour attributes of Soma, that are clearly 
not metaphoric in the RV,
p. 31-37, and for the effects of Soma which are not ephedrine-like, pp. 
44-71.

Rainer Stuhrmann






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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 06:49:37 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 08:49:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAAPrgbq0jphYCZoynpZdzYy_jdnmgP4Y68edApBZDBEM_5Jm3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAkAqxx=uhwnezFLsour8oDztk0gDTQ6NB_vdgsPYGWdw@mail.gmail.com>

High time for an experiment:
Since performances of Agni??omas (simple Soma ritual) are no more *that*
rare in India...
A. let there be, between now and, say, five to ten years from now:
10 classical Agni??omas in which Soma-substitute P?t?ka is pressed;
10 classical Agni??omas in which Ephedra is pressed;
B. Interview the yajamana and soma-drinking priests before and after the
ritual.
C. Conclude whether what seems to be the main candidate for having been the
"real" Soma, namely Ephedra, -- *in combination with the other
"transformative-hallucinogenic" practices such as fasting, listening to
myths, riddles and endless chants of samaveda etc.* -- provides or
reinforces the expected (not just recreative "hallucinogenic" but rather,
in any case for the yajamana between the diiksaa when he starts to keep his
fists as an embryo and the avabhrtha or concluding bath when he opens his
hands, "transformative") experiences.

In 2001 I studied only one (1) "Aty-Agnistoma" beautifully performed in
Barsi, Maharashtra, in which a local shrub considered to be P?t?ka -- "ran
sher" is the name I remember, a sample was identified as probably
Sarcostemma brevistigma, without known psychotropic effects -- was pressed,
and I filmed a statistically insignificant number of yet in several
respects quite revealing interviews (mostly in sanskrit mixed with marathi)
with the main participants. A tiny amount of my material has been edited
and can be found on the "Vedic ritual" channel at vimeo
https://vimeo.com/channels/vedicritual; more, including also material by
other scholars, will appear after our panel "Visual Asian Studies: Vedic
Ritual in India & Nepal" planned at the upcoming International Congres of
Asian Scholars (ICAS 11), July 16-19, Leiden.

The research could be extended even beyond the two times 10 performances,
although the following would be much more difficult to arrange:
10 *fantasy* Agni??omas in which Amanita muscaria is "pressed": in spite of
Dr Stuhrmann's claim in his abstract which he has nowhere substantiated in
his 2006 (or 1985) article: the mushroom Amanita muscaria does *not* fit
the ritual procedures of drying, transporting, sprinkling and "pressing"
the Soma as demonstrated by Brough 1971 to be read together with Brough
1973; to escape the non-fit of Amanita muscaria, Wasson had to suppose
(1972a: 14) that the pressing of Soma with stones or pestles is
adventitious (!), in spite of abundant references in the RV and in spite of
its structural presence as a crucial ritual episode in the Agni??oma; see
further also Jarrod Whitaker's article and his contribution to this
thread.
(On the other hand, some of the truly hallucinogenic candidates proposed by
Schwartz and Flattery *could* be amenable to a "classical" performance, if
ritual agents willing to cooperate can be found...)

In his article, Dr. Stuhrmann fails to refer to major evidence and
discusions that are problematic for his position, for instance discussions
by John Brough and F.B.J. Kuiper.
He enters into a detailed discussion with John Brough on the meagre and
preliminary basis of only the latter's 1971 article "Soma and Amanita
muscaria." Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 34.2:
331-362.
but does not even mention the continuation of the discussion (and Brough's
reply to Wasson's reply) in
Brough, John. 1973. "Problems of the ?Soma-mushroom? theory." Indologica
Taurinensia 1: 21-32.

Two other publications that he should have taken into account:
Kuiper, F.B.J. 1970. Review of Wasson 1969. Indo-Iranian-Journal,12.4:
279-285.
Kuiper, F.B.J. 1984. "Was the Putika a mushroom?." In: Amrtadhara:
Professor R.N. Dandekar Felicitation Volume (ed. by S.D. Joshi): 219-227.
Delhi: Ajanta.

The main error in the argument and valuable contributions to the discussion
by Dr. Stuhrmann and others would seem to be that *all*
poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the Soma plant are taken as resulting
*directly and exclusively* from the use of a drug or psychoactive
substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which the Soma-beverage is produced
contains other, significant "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that
appear as crucial already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint
Franciscus and Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire,
poets write "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have
used strong psychotropic substances.

C.G. Kashikar 1990 study is mentioned and evaluated in my 2003 article: he
naturally made full use of his profound knowledge of the classical Srauta
ritual and parallels in Zoroastrian ritual to conclude that a type of
ephedra is the most likely plant that was used in the Soma ritual.
Together with Asko Parpola, Kashikar wrote in Vol. 2 of Staal's Agni
(Kashikar and Parpola 1983: 248) that for the original Soma "[t]he most
likely candidate seems to be some species of Ephedra."

On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 at 12:46, Joanna Jurewicz via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> https://crossasia-journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/ejvs/article/view/2150
>
> Best,
>
> Joanna
>
> ---
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
> wt., 9 pa? 2018 o 05:11 Allen Thrasher via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):
>
>> Do any of the authors mentioned discuss the testimony of the mycological
>> literature as to where Amanita muscaria is found and relate it to where the
>> Rgveda is thought to have been composed?
>>
>> Allen
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From r.stuhrmann at t-online.de  Wed Oct 10 09:44:00 2018
From: r.stuhrmann at t-online.de (rainer stuhrmann)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 11:44:00 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoAkAqxx=uhwnezFLsour8oDztk0gDTQ6NB_vdgsPYGWdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90d73b7d-4da9-1502-9e00-b9ea08077860@t-online.de>

Dear all,

To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments

that can prove everything and nothing:

Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all

1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my 
article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV

about ?sprinkling? the Soma),

2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38

3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71

whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.

To

?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others

would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the 
Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the 
use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which 
the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant 
  "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial 
already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus and 
Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write 
"psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used 
strong psychotropic substances.?

the answer is:

(1) has not be demonstrated for the RV

(2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of 
which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.

But if Houben argues:

? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may 
induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of 
substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a 
large
extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject, 
whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)

the problem here is:

the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation 
of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear: ?We 
have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).

And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in water, 
swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not beaten), 
giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described 
effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic 
drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including 
counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article 
2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .

Best regards

Rainer Stuhrmann







From slaje at kabelmail.de  Wed Oct 10 14:31:59 2018
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 16:31:59 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <90d73b7d-4da9-1502-9e00-b9ea08077860@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nXMkK2rc+3LwP9x3Tj5xm6ZsG_2CQFum2XwkMTh+=wgng@mail.gmail.com>

An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from a
western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until the
ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:


[image: grafik.png]




The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:

?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from Mount
M?javant !?


p?yat?m, svastaye!

WS


Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear all,
>
> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>
> that can prove everything and nothing:
>
> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>
> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>
> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>
> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>
> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>
> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>
> To
>
> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>
> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which
> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus and
> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
> strong psychotropic substances.?
>
> the answer is:
>
> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>
> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>
> But if Houben argues:
>
> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a
> large
> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject,
> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>
> the problem here is:
>
> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation
> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear: ?We
> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>
> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in water,
> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not beaten),
> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>
> Best regards
>
> Rainer Stuhrmann
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Oct 10 15:48:19 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 08:48:19 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nXMkK2rc+3LwP9x3Tj5xm6ZsG_2CQFum2XwkMTh+=wgng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfoYkfvOH-MFRCJM0SFWjgS-NgVKZPCRxh-T7bJt2kQcA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Walter,

     This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening for
some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.  Thanks.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from a
> western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until the
> ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>
>
> [image: grafik.png]
>
>
>
>
> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>
> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from Mount
> M?javant !?
>
>
> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>
> WS
>
>
> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>
>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>
>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>
>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>
>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>
>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>
>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>
>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>
>> To
>>
>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>
>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which
>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus and
>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>
>> the answer is:
>>
>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>
>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>
>> But if Houben argues:
>>
>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a
>> large
>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject,
>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>
>> the problem here is:
>>
>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation
>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear: ?We
>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>
>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in water,
>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not beaten),
>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Wed Oct 10 16:01:59 2018
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 18:01:59 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfoYkfvOH-MFRCJM0SFWjgS-NgVKZPCRxh-T7bJt2kQcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nUVKg5Khgahb7Se-oVGt-ab8B5w5+qn+K-BqMZx0Uv1_w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
trade, here is the link for further research:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg

Best wishes,
WS

Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
mmdesh at umich.edu>:

> Dear Walter,
>
>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening for
> some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.  Thanks.
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>>
>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from a
>> western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until the
>> ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>>
>>
>> [image: grafik.png]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>
>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
>> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
>> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>> Mount M?javant !?
>>
>>
>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>
>> WS
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info>:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>
>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>
>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>
>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>
>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>
>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>
>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>
>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>
>>> To
>>>
>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>
>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which
>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus and
>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>
>>> the answer is:
>>>
>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>
>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>
>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>
>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a
>>> large
>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject,
>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>
>>> the problem here is:
>>>
>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation
>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear: ?We
>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>
>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in water,
>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not beaten),
>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 18:46:39 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 18 00:16:39 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nUVKg5Khgahb7Se-oVGt-ab8B5w5+qn+K-BqMZx0Uv1_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZ1DL6c_oN8HSHci9MtpTAcir-P9U2dL3BwBAJKv-PZQw@mail.gmail.com>

Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:

Dear Scholars,

I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya T.V.Kapali
Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
or inner meaning of the RgVeda.

"........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
property is not mentioned"

"...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is taken
to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O Thou,
all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord, encompass all
the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the all) and
flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda 9.86.5).
Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the herb,
one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him whom the
Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)

regards

Shrikant Jamadagni
Bangalore

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the same list,

Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:

Soma: What it is and what it does


Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets SOMA
only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of Soma plant,
(also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the stalks, an
????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the priests, then
sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get Soma.  Anshu
???? however
is translated by MW  as  a filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end
of a thread, a minute particle; a point, end;..

....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma. It
will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread, end
of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept of
an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled with
water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined
process and not physically feasible .

In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by which
human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and then
sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom. That
is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human anatomy
that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
processing of information by human brain.

 Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation, which
is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma is a lot
more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9th  chapter
Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped notice of MW in
giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani Soma signifies a
  non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant for physical action for
welfare and benefit of entire creation.

Vedic Soma

???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !

??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2

Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
in them.



???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !

???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3

 Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and then
drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
because that is not true soma."

But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
edible product.

???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !

????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4

It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
in the material world .

Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*

* -.....     .......   .......  *


*......    ......  .........*

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
> trade, here is the link for further research:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>
> Best wishes,
> WS
>
> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>
>> Dear Walter,
>>
>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening for
>> some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.  Thanks.
>>
>> Madhav
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus
>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan
>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from a
>>> western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until the
>>> ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>
>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
>>> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
>>> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>
>>>
>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>
>>> WS
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY
>>> <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>>
>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>
>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>
>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>
>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>
>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>
>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>
>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>
>>>> To
>>>>
>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>
>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>> which
>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus
>>>> and
>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>
>>>> the answer is:
>>>>
>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>
>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>
>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>
>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a
>>>> large
>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject,
>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>
>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>
>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation
>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear:
>>>> ?We
>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>
>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>> water,
>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>> beaten),
>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 18:56:19 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 20:56:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CALoZ1nXMkK2rc+3LwP9x3Tj5xm6ZsG_2CQFum2XwkMTh+=wgng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoDJQrgncVaut4yiFa649tiKyZtDx=NS69x3RSi7TsrEBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Walter,
Indeed a remarkable piece of evidence!
But it does not clinch the issue as the scene must have been not just
pre-?rauta but faaar pre-Rgvedic (as the continuity of ?rauta ritual, and
late and early Rgvedic ritual, in some crucial respects even pre-Rgvedic
Indo-Iranian ritual, is well-known: cp. Hillebrandt 1897: 11 ).
And if the last line suggests a contemporary exclamation I would expect,
instead of su-astaye: pra-astaye > pr?staye (cp. L. and G. Prosit !)
Jan

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 16:33, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from a
> western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until the
> ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>
>
> [image: grafik.png]
>
>
>
>
> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>
> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from Mount
> M?javant !?
>
>
> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>
> WS
>
>
> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>
>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>
>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>
>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>
>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>
>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>
>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>
>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>
>> To
>>
>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>
>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which
>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus and
>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>
>> the answer is:
>>
>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>
>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>
>> But if Houben argues:
>>
>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a
>> large
>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject,
>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>
>> the problem here is:
>>
>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation
>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear: ?We
>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>
>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in water,
>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not beaten),
>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 19:45:05 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 15:45:05 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Meaning_of_gh=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=87e=C5=9Ba?=
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQE_a-_+r4AvFDTPbBN8KBRo6Ay3_7Z_QLU1C1OxJJp1WA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

One of the jyotirlingams is gh???e?a .  Can anyone tell me what the
meaning  of the name is.  I can find no entries for gh???a or gh???? in
Boehtlink-Roth or Monier-Williams.

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 19:46:08 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 21:46:08 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eZ1DL6c_oN8HSHci9MtpTAcir-P9U2dL3BwBAJKv-PZQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBmAu-tO5WVBz-1Zwv3cr=sMpHnGax_LOJp_=6hK+wEmA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Nagaraj-ji,
To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
between "modern" and "traditional").
The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and, I
hope, all the more, to the new "??stric research methodology" you and your
colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
languages.
For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility to
put the accent in Rgvedic style.
There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which allow
putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including according to
the style of other ??kh?s as well.
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>
> Dear Scholars,
>
> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya T.V.Kapali
> Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>
> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
> property is not mentioned"
>
> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is taken
> to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O Thou,
> all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord, encompass all
> the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the all) and
> flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda 9.86.5).
> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>
> regards
>
> Shrikant Jamadagni
> Bangalore
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On the same list,
>
> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>
> Soma: What it is and what it does
>
>
> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of Soma
> plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
> stalks, an  ????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
> Soma.  Anshu ???? however is translated by MW  as  a filament(especially
> of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute particle; a point, end;..
>
> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma. It
> will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread, end
> of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept of
> an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled with
> water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined
> process and not physically feasible .
>
> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
> processing of information by human brain.
>
>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma is
> a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9th  chapter
> Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped notice of MW in
> giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani Soma signifies a
>   non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant for physical action
> for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>
> Vedic Soma
>
> ???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !
>
> ??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2
>
> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
> in them.
>
>
>
> ???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !
>
> ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3
>
>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
> because that is not true soma."
>
> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
> edible product.
>
> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !
>
> ????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4
>
> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
> in the material world .
>
> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>
> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>
>
> *......    ......  .........*
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> WS
>>
>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>
>>> Dear Walter,
>>>
>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening for
>>> some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> Madhav
>>>
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus
>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from
>>>> a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until
>>>> the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>
>>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
>>>> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
>>>> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>>
>>>> WS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>>>
>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>
>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>
>>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>
>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>
>>>>> To
>>>>>
>>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>
>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>> which
>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus
>>>>> and
>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>>
>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>
>>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to
>>>>> a
>>>>> large
>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>> subject,
>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>
>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>
>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting, deprivation
>>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear:
>>>>> ?We
>>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>> water,
>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>> beaten),
>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 21:11:58 2018
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 17:11:58 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBmAu-tO5WVBz-1Zwv3cr=sMpHnGax_LOJp_=6hK+wEmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zsh=TGiTFrd27-iS-FDz7GTb9LzugTngUvMj33i08s7GQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.

Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number of
years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in the
US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
scholarly papers.

George

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
> Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
> for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
> Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
> detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
> scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
> scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
> between "modern" and "traditional").
> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and, I
> hope, all the more, to the new "??stric research methodology" you and your
> colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
> languages.
> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility
> to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which allow
> putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including according to
> the style of other ??kh?s as well.
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>
>> Dear Scholars,
>>
>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya T.V.Kapali
>> Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>
>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
>> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>> property is not mentioned"
>>
>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>> 9.86.5).
>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>> Bangalore
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On the same list,
>>
>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>
>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>
>>
>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>> stalks, an  ????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>> Soma.  Anshu ???? however is translated by MW  as  a filament(especially
>> of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute particle; a point, end;
>> ..
>>
>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma.
>> It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread,
>> end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept
>> of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled
>> with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined
>> process and not physically feasible .
>>
>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>> processing of information by human brain.
>>
>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma is
>> a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9th  chapter
>> Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped notice of MW in
>> giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani Soma signifies a
>>   non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant for physical action
>> for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>
>> Vedic Soma
>>
>> ???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !
>>
>> ??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2
>>
>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
>> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
>> in them.
>>
>>
>>
>> ???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !
>>
>> ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3
>>
>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>> because that is not true soma."
>>
>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
>> edible product.
>>
>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !
>>
>> ????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4
>>
>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>> in the material world .
>>
>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>
>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>
>>
>> *......    ......  .........*
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> WS
>>>
>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>
>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>
>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Madhav
>>>>
>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>> University of Michigan
>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from
>>>>> a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until
>>>>> the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
>>>>> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
>>>>> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>>>
>>>>> WS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>
>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>
>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> large
>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear:
>>>>>> ?We
>>>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>> water,
>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>> article
>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 21:32:06 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 23:32:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zsh=TGiTFrd27-iS-FDz7GTb9LzugTngUvMj33i08s7GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoB0MiYE_EQicUq2T=Rxx8ji=eQqc3L3uVENqVak6mYh-w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear George,
Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always
enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree
in all respects.
And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical book
at home and/or in a library.
Best regards,
Jan


On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
> recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
> several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
> I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
> in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
> cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
> convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.
>
> Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number of
> years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in the
> US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
> written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
> scholarly papers.
>
> George
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
>> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
>> Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
>> for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
>> Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
>> detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
>> scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
>> scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
>> between "modern" and "traditional").
>> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and, I
>> hope, all the more, to the new "??stric research methodology" you and your
>> colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
>> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
>> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
>> languages.
>> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility
>> to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
>> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which allow
>> putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including according to
>> the style of other ??kh?s as well.
>> With best regards,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>>
>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>
>>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya
>>> T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>>
>>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
>>> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>>> property is not mentioned"
>>>
>>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>>> 9.86.5).
>>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>> Bangalore
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On the same list,
>>>
>>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>>
>>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>>
>>>
>>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>>> stalks, an  ????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>>> Soma.  Anshu ???? however is translated by MW  as  a
>>> filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute
>>> particle; a point, end;..
>>>
>>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma.
>>> It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread,
>>> end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept
>>> of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled
>>> with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined
>>> process and not physically feasible .
>>>
>>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>>> processing of information by human brain.
>>>
>>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma
>>> is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9th
>>>   chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped
>>> notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani
>>> Soma signifies a  non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant for
>>> physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>>
>>> Vedic Soma
>>>
>>> ???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !
>>>
>>> ??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2
>>>
>>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
>>> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
>>> in them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !
>>>
>>> ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3
>>>
>>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>>> because that is not true soma."
>>>
>>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
>>> edible product.
>>>
>>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !
>>>
>>> ????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4
>>>
>>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>>> in the material world .
>>>
>>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>>
>>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>>
>>>
>>> *......    ......  .........*
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
>>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> WS
>>>>
>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>>
>>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>
>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>> University of Michigan
>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved
>>>>>> from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and
>>>>>> until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm
>>>>>> counterevidence:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by
>>>>>> a satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill
>>>>>> of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend
>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear:
>>>>>>> ?We
>>>>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Oct 11 00:04:44 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 18 17:04:44 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfrF6ssZKRPN+zksnjgzSUMQPcTtBzuvXyL-h-BZtSaCw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

????? ?? ???????? ???????????????: ?
?????????????? ?????????? ??????? ??: ???????
May the Dark Royal Swan wander in the lake of my mind and clear my mind by
separating the good from the bad.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Thu Oct 11 03:15:21 2018
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (jhakgirish)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 18 08:45:21 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?=
In-Reply-To: <h17do2cg812trf0k7q8ojavj.1539226734152@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5bbec04c.1c69fb81.81d61.a5a6@mx.google.com>

Dear Professor Sahab,Chetas chiraat arthayate mamedamKritaarthito,aham bhavataadya nunam.Jaane na kenaasmy anrino mahaatmanEvam prabhuyaan madhuram vachas te.//?Pranamaami.Girish K.JhaRetd. Univ.ProfessorDept of SanskritPatna UniversityPatnaResidence:Kolkata: India.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> Date: 10/11/18  5:35 AM  (GMT+05:30) To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>, Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvparishat at googlegroups.com>, e-shabda-charcha-peeth <e-shabda-charcha-peeth at googlegroups.com>, Jayaram Sethuraman <sethu at stat.fsu.edu>, Ranjana Date <ranjanadate51 at gmail.com>, Indira Peterson <indira.p19 at gmail.com>, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com> Subject: {???????????????????} Continuing my Krishna verses 
Continuing my Krishna verses
????? ?? ???????? ???????????????: ??????????????? ?????????? ??????? ??: ???????May the Dark Royal Swan wander in the lake of my mind and clear my mind by separating the good from the bad.
Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California]



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From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Thu Oct 11 10:11:07 2018
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 18 12:11:07 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoB0MiYE_EQicUq2T=Rxx8ji=eQqc3L3uVENqVak6mYh-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbqkKifKht_yW=qX8Ss6uOC5Ex8tRjRCnsrxTkuX50H1fg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear George,

I am also waiting for your paper. Please, do find it!

I would also like to say that I have analysed the problem of Soma in my
"Fire and cognition in the Rgveda" (2010). I have not tried to decide its
botanical identification, but I have analysed how this concept was used by
the Rgvedic poets (on the basis of the experience which is attested in the
RV) in their philosophical (yes, I dare to use this word) investigation.
The work of George was very useful for me.

Best wishes,

Joanna

---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


?r., 10 pa? 2018 o 23:33 Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):

> Dear George,
> Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always
> enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree
> in all respects.
> And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical
> book at home and/or in a library.
> Best regards,
> Jan
>
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
>> recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
>> several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
>> I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
>> in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
>> cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
>> convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.
>>
>> Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number
>> of years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in
>> the US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
>> written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
>> scholarly papers.
>>
>> George
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
>>> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
>>> Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
>>> for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
>>> Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
>>> detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
>>> scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
>>> scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
>>> between "modern" and "traditional").
>>> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and,
>>> I hope, all the more, to the new "??stric research methodology" you and
>>> your colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
>>> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
>>> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
>>> languages.
>>> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility
>>> to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
>>> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which
>>> allow putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including
>>> according to the style of other ??kh?s as well.
>>> With best regards,
>>> Jan Houben
>>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>>
>>>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya
>>>> T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>>>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>>>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>>>
>>>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
>>>> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>>>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>>>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>>>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>>>> property is not mentioned"
>>>>
>>>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>>>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>>>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>>>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>>>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>>>> 9.86.5).
>>>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>>>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>>>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>
>>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>>> Bangalore
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> On the same list,
>>>>
>>>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>>>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>>>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>>>> stalks, an  ????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>>>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>>>> Soma.  Anshu ???? however is translated by MW  as  a
>>>> filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute
>>>> particle; a point, end;..
>>>>
>>>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma.
>>>> It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread,
>>>> end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept
>>>> of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones,
>>>> sprinkled with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an
>>>> imagined process and not physically feasible .
>>>>
>>>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>>>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>>>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>>>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>>>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>>>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>>>> processing of information by human brain.
>>>>
>>>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>>>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma
>>>> is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9
>>>> th  chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped
>>>> notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani
>>>> Soma signifies a  non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant
>>>> for physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>>>
>>>> Vedic Soma
>>>>
>>>> ???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !
>>>>
>>>> ??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2
>>>>
>>>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
>>>> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
>>>> in them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !
>>>>
>>>> ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3
>>>>
>>>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>>>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>>>> because that is not true soma."
>>>>
>>>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
>>>> edible product.
>>>>
>>>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !
>>>>
>>>> ????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4
>>>>
>>>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>>>> in the material world .
>>>>
>>>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>>>
>>>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *......    ......  .........*
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>>>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
>>>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> WS
>>>>>
>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>> University of Michigan
>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved
>>>>>>> from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and
>>>>>>> until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm
>>>>>>> counterevidence:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by
>>>>>>> a satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill
>>>>>>> of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future
>>>>>>>> experiments
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint
>>>>>>>> Franciscus and
>>>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend
>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and
>>>>>>>> clear: ?We
>>>>>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by
>>>>>>>> hallicunogenic
>>>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded
>>>>>>>> side-effects,
>>>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>
>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>
>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>
>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>
>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>
>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>>
>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>
>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>>
>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>>
>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>
>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Thu Oct 11 23:05:12 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 18 19:05:12 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Meaning_of_gh=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=87e=C5=9Ba?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQE_a-_+r4AvFDTPbBN8KBRo6Ay3_7Z_QLU1C1OxJJp1WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQG52XJhbHyaz7aWeEM79vYg3M-f+8kUe1Q9sby3YTCvPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you to Gerard Huet and Roland Steiner who answered my query off-list.
Harry Spier

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:45 PM Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> One of the jyotirlingams is gh???e?a .  Can anyone tell me what the
> meaning  of the name is.  I can find no entries for gh???a or gh???? in
> Boehtlink-Roth or Monier-Williams.
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Oct 12 04:33:45 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 18 21:33:45 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Meaning_of_gh=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=87e=C5=9Ba?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQG52XJhbHyaz7aWeEM79vYg3M-f+8kUe1Q9sby3YTCvPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcGF6EhgMEWPyYLysVCOnRJXNmEQTRA70i7TH9386J0+w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Harry,

Please let us know what this word means according to Huet and Steiner.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:06 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thank you to Gerard Huet and Roland Steiner who answered my query off-list.
> Harry Spier
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:45 PM Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> One of the jyotirlingams is gh???e?a .  Can anyone tell me what the
>> meaning  of the name is.  I can find no entries for gh???a or gh???? in
>> Boehtlink-Roth or Monier-Williams.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Harry Spier
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Fri Oct 12 04:52:26 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 18 00:52:26 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Meaning_of_gh=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=87e=C5=9Ba?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcGF6EhgMEWPyYLysVCOnRJXNmEQTRA70i7TH9386J0+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQGHa7hzzDW9NOV1AvrQW_HcD_CsqMDLU6-6HD-HzQ2yyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 12:34 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Hi Harry,
>
> Please let us know what this word means according to Huet and Steiner.
>
>>
>>
Dear Madhav,

I receive 4 replies.

1) Gerard Huet quoting a reply from yourself to him on the same question
from 2001.

The following information I got from Madhav Deshpande on 09-05-01, but I
can?t find it in the Indology archives (months of May and June 2001 are
missing),
so maybe it was in some other place or in a private communication.

Information about gh???e?vara appears in the Marathi encyclopedia
Bhaaratiiya Sa.msk.rtikoza, edited by Mahaadeva  Zastrii Jozii, vol. 3, p.
274.
This work cites several accounts. The first account is referred to a story
from the Padmapuraa.na where a devoted woman named Gh.r.s.naa asks Ziva to
come and reside in this place. Thus, the name Lord of Gh.r.s.naa.
The second story narrates interaction between Ziva and Paarvatii. Paarvatii
is rubbing (Skt. root gh.r.s) safron on her palms, and out of this rubbing
this particular Zivalifga is produced. Therefore, it was called
Ghus.r.nezvara > Gh.r.s.nezvara.
Then finally we are informed that the temple of Gh.r.s.nezvara was built by
the same K.r.s.naraaja who built the Kailaasa temple at Ellora. This gives
us a possible clue.
A Ziva temple built by K.r.s.na <http://k.r.s.na/> became K.r.s.nezvara >
Gh.r.s.nezvara.
So we have a number of possible explanations.


2) From Roland Steiner

Could the first part of the compound be read as dh???i "ray of light"?


3) From Dipak Bhattacharya

gh???e?a or gh??e?a?


4) From Seishi Karashima

Please see the attached image from K. R. Norman, Collected Papers VII, PTS
2001. The meaning given there, however, does not fit the compound gh???e?a.


(I've attached the page to this posting)


Harry Spier


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From racleach at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 12 09:25:48 2018
From: racleach at googlemail.com (Robert Leach)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 18 10:25:48 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] caesarean sections
Message-ID: <CAAyw6C=be6CrZSCvJWfq-2Ch=vVezM=ZOegr=OrbtBG=ZYs3mg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I ask on behalf of a friend of mine who works in the history of medicine
and has little knowledge of South Asian medical history: can anyone share
references to pre-modern (ideally pre-second millennium CE) descriptions of
caesarean sections in South Asian literature?

I'd be very grateful for any pointers...

Many thanks in advance!

Robert


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Oct 12 17:46:52 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 18 11:46:52 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] caesarean sections
In-Reply-To: <CAAyw6C=be6CrZSCvJWfq-2Ch=vVezM=ZOegr=OrbtBG=ZYs3mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CenfKo+Y9nDrG=KobA8fptRBdjsvksfDF4DLBp4yNqnDg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Robert!

No, cesarian delivery is not described in the early Ayurvedic literature.

There are detailed descriptions of prenatal and postnatal care as well as
delivery.  There is also an early (Su?ruta) description of how to remove a
dead child from the mother's womb.  It is done with cutting and hooking
instruments via the birth canal.  The description is grim and sad, and one
of the only places in Ayurveda literature that mentions the use of an
anaesthetic (wine).  There is brief mention in the classic texts of the
surgical removal of a fetus through the abdomen, but only if the mother has
died.

Good sources for general medical history questions like this include:

   - Priyadaranjan Ray and Hirendra Nath Gupta and Mira Roy. 1980. Su?ruta
   Sa?hita (a Scientific Synopsis) . New Delhi: INSA. (The Archive:
   http://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t64511t6v <http://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t64511t6v>
   )
   - Priyadaranjan Ray and Hirendra Nath Gupta. 1980. Caraka Sa?hita (a
   Scientific Synopsis) . 2nd ed. New Delhi: INSA. (
   http://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t9378z44z)
   and the old but still superb
   - Jolly, Julius. 1951. Indian Medicine, Translated from the German by C.
   G. Kashikar . Poona: C. G. Kashikar. (http://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t65491w39
   )

Best,
Dominik

Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 03:26, Robert Leach via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I ask on behalf of a friend of mine who works in the history of medicine
> and has little knowledge of South Asian medical history: can anyone share
> references to pre-modern (ideally pre-second millennium CE) descriptions of
> caesarean sections in South Asian literature?
>
> I'd be very grateful for any pointers...
>
> Many thanks in advance!
>
> Robert
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri Oct 12 18:56:13 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 18 00:26:13 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBmAu-tO5WVBz-1Zwv3cr=sMpHnGax_LOJp_=6hK+wEmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYbArkpfJSMdVLoskNfOb8H30vmWu1OgOANOfpgMVzDvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the delayed response from my side, Prof. Houben.

Thanks for your constructive suggestion regarding accents. I will convey to
the posting colleagues.

Regards,

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 1:16 AM Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
> Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
> for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
> Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
> detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
> scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
> scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
> between "modern" and "traditional").
> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and, I
> hope, all the more, to the new "??stric research methodology" you and your
> colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
> languages.
> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility
> to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which allow
> putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including according to
> the style of other ??kh?s as well.
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>
>> Dear Scholars,
>>
>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya T.V.Kapali
>> Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>
>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
>> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>> property is not mentioned"
>>
>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>> 9.86.5).
>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>> Bangalore
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On the same list,
>>
>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>
>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>
>>
>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>> stalks, an  ????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>> Soma.  Anshu ???? however is translated by MW  as  a filament(especially
>> of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute particle; a point, end;
>> ..
>>
>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma.
>> It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread,
>> end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept
>> of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled
>> with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined
>> process and not physically feasible .
>>
>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>> processing of information by human brain.
>>
>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma is
>> a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9th  chapter
>> Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped notice of MW in
>> giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani Soma signifies a
>>   non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant for physical action
>> for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>
>> Vedic Soma
>>
>> ???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !
>>
>> ??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2
>>
>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
>> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
>> in them.
>>
>>
>>
>> ???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !
>>
>> ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3
>>
>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>> because that is not true soma."
>>
>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
>> edible product.
>>
>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !
>>
>> ????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4
>>
>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>> in the material world .
>>
>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>
>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>
>>
>> *......    ......  .........*
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> WS
>>>
>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>
>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>
>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Madhav
>>>>
>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>> University of Michigan
>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from
>>>>> a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until
>>>>> the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a
>>>>> satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of
>>>>> anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>>>
>>>>> WS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>
>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>
>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> large
>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear:
>>>>>> ?We
>>>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>> water,
>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the described
>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>> article
>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From gthomgt at gmail.com  Fri Oct 12 22:15:55 2018
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 18 18:15:55 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAAPrgbqkKifKht_yW=qX8Ss6uOC5Ex8tRjRCnsrxTkuX50H1fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zvMRTBR-mxFiMPD7KG26-8diYvcrDjL7HECmuSL8RHg8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Joanna and list members,

I apologize for being slow to respond.  I have come down with the flu.  My
body aches all over and I am unable to move around easily.  It will
probably take me a few days to get pdfs to you all.

Thanks in advance for your patience.

George

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:11 AM Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
wrote:

> Dear George,
>
> I am also waiting for your paper. Please, do find it!
>
> I would also like to say that I have analysed the problem of Soma in my
> "Fire and cognition in the Rgveda" (2010). I have not tried to decide its
> botanical identification, but I have analysed how this concept was used by
> the Rgvedic poets (on the basis of the experience which is attested in the
> RV) in their philosophical (yes, I dare to use this word) investigation.
> The work of George was very useful for me.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joanna
>
> ---
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia
> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
> ?r., 10 pa? 2018 o 23:33 Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a):
>
>> Dear George,
>> Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always
>> enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree
>> in all respects.
>> And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical
>> book at home and/or in a library.
>> Best regards,
>> Jan
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
>>> recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
>>> several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
>>> I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
>>> in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
>>> cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
>>> convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.
>>>
>>> Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number
>>> of years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in
>>> the US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
>>> written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
>>> scholarly papers.
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
>>>> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote
>>>> the Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an
>>>> indispensable feature for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a
>>>> feature, moreover, which Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much
>>>> trouble to describe in detail and which has been studied with much critical
>>>> acumen by modern scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for
>>>> excellent Vedic scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and
>>>> "indic", at the most between "modern" and "traditional").
>>>> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and,
>>>> I hope, all the more, to the new "??stric research methodology" you and
>>>> your colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
>>>> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
>>>> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
>>>> languages.
>>>> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic
>>>> possibility to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
>>>> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which
>>>> allow putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including
>>>> according to the style of other ??kh?s as well.
>>>> With best regards,
>>>> Jan Houben
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya
>>>>> T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>>>>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>>>>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>>>>
>>>>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an
>>>>> extinct species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>>>>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>>>>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>>>>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>>>>> property is not mentioned"
>>>>>
>>>>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>>>>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>>>>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>>>>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>>>>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>>>>> 9.86.5).
>>>>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>>>>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>>>>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>>>> Bangalore
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> On the same list,
>>>>>
>>>>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>>>>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>>>>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>>>>> stalks, an  ????  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>>>>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>>>>> Soma.  Anshu ???? however is translated by MW  as  a
>>>>> filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute
>>>>> particle; a point, end;..
>>>>>
>>>>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of
>>>>> Soma. It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the
>>>>> thread, end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire
>>>>> concept of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones,
>>>>> sprinkled with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an
>>>>> imagined process and not physically feasible .
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>>>>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>>>>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>>>>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>>>>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>>>>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>>>>> processing of information by human brain.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>>>>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma
>>>>> is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9
>>>>> th  chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have
>>>>> escaped notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma.
>>>>> Pavmani Soma signifies a  non physical  entity  that provides the
>>>>> stimulant for physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vedic Soma
>>>>>
>>>>> ???????????? ????: ?????? ?????? ??? !
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? ????????????????????? ??? ????: !! ?????? 10/85/2
>>>>>
>>>>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the
>>>>> sky that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is
>>>>> established in them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ???? ?????? ?????????????????????????? !
>>>>>
>>>>> ???? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? !! ?????? 10/85/3
>>>>>
>>>>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>>>>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>>>>> because that is not true soma."
>>>>>
>>>>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not
>>>>> an edible product.
>>>>>
>>>>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ??????: !
>>>>>
>>>>> ????????????????????????? ??? ??????? ???????: !! ?????? 10/85/4
>>>>>
>>>>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>>>>> in the material world .
>>>>>
>>>>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>>>>
>>>>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *......    ......  .........*
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing
>>>>>> picture!
>>>>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>>>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>>>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>>>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-?rauta early Aryan Soma
>>>>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>>>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>>> University of Michigan
>>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved
>>>>>>>> from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and
>>>>>>>> until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm
>>>>>>>> counterevidence:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?*A??u* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes
>>>>>>>> by a satisfied ?ryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his
>>>>>>>> thrill of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>>>>> Mount M?javant !?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> p?yat?m, svastaye!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future
>>>>>>>>> experiments
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> about ?sprinkling? the Soma),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ?The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as
>>>>>>>>> crucial
>>>>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint
>>>>>>>>> Franciscus and
>>>>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets
>>>>>>>>> write
>>>>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the
>>>>>>>>> occurence of
>>>>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ? In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend
>>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.?(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about ?fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>>>>> of sleep? (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and
>>>>>>>>> clear: ?We
>>>>>>>>> have just drunk Soma? (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /m?da/ ?inebriation?, the
>>>>>>>>> described
>>>>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by
>>>>>>>>> hallicunogenic
>>>>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded
>>>>>>>>> side-effects,
>>>>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>>
>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>>
>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>>
>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>>>
>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>>
>>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>>>
>>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>>>
>>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>>
>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From ms156 at soas.ac.uk  Sat Oct 13 07:53:05 2018
From: ms156 at soas.ac.uk (Mark Singleton)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 18 08:53:05 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <4C293BD2-11EF-4AC9-8AC6-E517772297BE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <908b0e4c-4d69-a30a-a370-5ea47e617910@soas.ac.uk>

Posting on behalf of Matthew Clark (S0AS):

In my book, "The Tawny One: Soma, Homa and Ayahuasca" (Muswell Hill 
Press, 2017), I take a fresh look at the soma/haoma issue. Summarized 
below is my argument. All the details, arguments, counter-arguments and 
references are supplied in my book. The points presented below comprise, 
generally, the current scholarly consensus on many of the topics.

1. The soma/homa cult originated in Turkmenistan.

2. Large scale migrations took place in Asia around 1600 BCE. (I suggest 
that these migratons, which coincided with the collapse of all Bronze 
Age civilizations, from Crete to the Indus, were caused by the eruption 
of the Santorini volcano in 1615 BCE.)

3. "Aryans" came to the Punjab from Turkmenistan (not Anatolya, e.g. 
Colin Renfrew). bringing the cults of soma and the sacred fire. These 
are the two central elements of ancient Indo-Iranian religion.

4. Soma rites are the most esteemed of Vedic shrauta rites.

5. There are three theories about soma that still have some scholarly 
support: ephedra, Syrian rue, and fly agaric.

6. Nearly all commentators agree that soma/haoma was a drug.

7. Ephedra is a mild stimulant, but like any stimulant, engenders a 
hangover. It is not visionary or psychedelic. Sustained use of large 
doses of ephedra is debilitating and can lead to tachycardia. But it may 
have been used sometimes as an additive to a "base" concoction (see below).

8. Ritualist appear to be "reborn" after a soma rite and not hungover.

9. The Labha Sukhta and Hom Yasht 9-11 appear, contra Falk et al., to 
indicate visionary or psychedelic experience.

10. Rue, at high doses, is almost psychedelic, but also highly 
destabilizing. It is not a psychedelic drug. It is dream-inducing: 
oneirophrenic. But rue contains MAOIs.

11. Wasson's fly agaric is a massive red herring (or red mushroom!). 
Since Wasson, people have been "finding" these mushrooms in Tibetan 
Buddhism, early Christianity and Greek mystery rites. I don't agree with 
any of these "findings".

Contra fly-agaric:

12. Even drying the mushrooms, thereby converting more of the ibotenic 
acid to muscimol, still does not eliminate toxins sufficiently to 
engender a ritual-friendly trip (blurred vision, stomach cramps, tremors 
etc.).

13. There is no pee drinking in the Vedas or Avesta.

14. Soma/haoma is the juice of stalks that need vigorous pounding. 
Stipes of mushrooms do not need pounding. In Siberia and Afghanistan the 
mushrooms are consumed whole, dried or peeled. Never are they pounded in 
mortar and pestle (as haoma is pounded in Zoroastrian and Mithraic 
rites, and with large stones in Vedic rites).

15. Fly agaric grows in many places in South Asia and worldwide. It is 
easily available.

16. If we are looking for a psychedelic, it was most probably a 
tryptamine, not a phenethylamine, and certainly not any plant containing 
scopolamine. Unlike the enthusiasm and reverence for the "classic" 
tryptamines (LSD in the 60s and 70s, psilocybin from the mid-70s, and 
ayahuasca, i.e. DMT + MAOIs, from the early 90s), nearly no one 
regularly drinks or eats fly agaric, even though it is easily available 
almost everywhere. Even Siberians often prefer alcohol to the mushrooms. 
Wasson himself tried the mushrooms many times but just felt sick and 
tired. Fly-agaric is, essentially, in my opinion, too toxic to be the 
queen of entheogens.

17. Soma was as purgative (see the Brahmanas). The purgative aspect is 
due to MAOIs, not DMT (see below). It was bitter and tawny coloured. 
During soma rites it is drunk about every three hours. Rites sometimes 
continue for several days. This has parallels with some ayahuasca 
rituals (see below).

18. In both the Vedas and Avesta there are references to "many 
somas/haomas": soma of the valleys, soma of the hills, soma of the 
rivers etc., in the Rigveda. "Many haomas" are mentioned several times 
in the Avesta.

19. Around 60 common plants contain DMT, and around 70 plants contain 
MAOIs. All 4,200 combinations work similarly as ayahuasca analogues.

20. In the Amazon region around 100 plants are used variously as 
additives to the base concoction for making ayahuasca, a mixture of DMT 
(in chacruna) and MAOIs (in the Banisteriopsis caapi vine). Recipes 
vary. It was the same in ancient Asia.

21. Soma/haoma was never one plant, it was many plants. As with curare, 
in South America, early researchers were wrong to think it was just one 
vine. Local shamans add lots of other plants as boosters.

22. Similarly, Ayurvedic formulas and Greek and Roman medicines often 
use complex plant formulas. The synergetic effect of some traditional, 
complex plant medicines is still poorly understood.

23. In the Materia Medica of India around 20 plants are called soma 
(including rue). Several of these plants contain either DMT or MAOIs. 
Virtually no phytochemical work has been done on the potential 
psychoactive properties of many plants called soma.

24. Soma/haoma was ayahuasca analogues. I identify around a dozen plants 
referred to in the Vedas and Avesta, some of which are known to contain 
DMT or MAOIs, which could have been used as soma/haoma concoctions.

25. The rituals of the Santo Daime church exhibit some striking 
parallels with Vedic ritual. This shows that regular, bi-weekly, 
life-long consumption of ayahuasca (or ayahuasca analogues) is quite 
compatible with sustained ritual activity and recitation of hymns/mantras.

26. The kykeon of the Greek mystery rites was also an ayahuasca analogue 
concoction.

27. Vedic and Zoroastrian soma/haoma rituals developed primarily as 
vehicles for a deep entheogenic trip, within a ritually confined and 
ordered space within which a trip could be safely and comfortably 
managed by trained priests.

My work on this topic is ongoing. I have made a few new discoveries 
since my book was published last year. Four articles that I have 
recently written on soma will be published next year.


Matthew Clark (SOAS).



On 09/10/2018 02:15, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on 
> the identification of /soma/ in the ?gveda with /Amanita muscaria/? 
> I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help 
> appreciated.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jonathan Edelmann
>
> Jonathan Edelmann?? Assistant Professor
> University of Florida?? Department of Religion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch  Sat Oct 13 09:18:22 2018
From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 18 09:18:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <908b0e4c-4d69-a30a-a370-5ea47e617910@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <229FA23D-FAA0-4E17-9C13-018ED9733497@unil.ch>

I am sympathetic to the arguments of Matthew Clark (I have not yet seen his book), but wish to raise a question that may or may not be relevant in this discussion:
It has repeatedly been observed that there is a "striking anomaly" between the much greater number of psychoactive plants known to the original Americans, who had utilised between eighty and a hundred different species, as compared with the much smaller number ? no more than eight or ten ? used in the Old World (Peter Watson, The Great Divide, Phoenix 2012, p. 193 ff., with references to Weston La Barre and others). Clark, too, refers to psychedelic drugs (ayahuasca, Daime, psilocybin) that are mainly known for their indigenous use in the Americas. My question is therefore: What easily available plants might have been used by the consumers of Soma? Is it enough to say that certain plants contain DMT, certain others MAOIs, without specifying how these could be subjected to relatively easy processes that would result in psychedelic substances?
Are there easy answers to these questions?
 Johannes Bronkhorst

On 13 Oct 2018, at 09:53, Mark Singleton via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Posting on behalf of Matthew Clark (S0AS):

In my book, "The Tawny One: Soma, Homa and Ayahuasca" (Muswell Hill Press, 2017), I take a fresh look at the soma/haoma issue. Summarized below is my argument. All the details, arguments, counter-arguments and references are supplied in my book. The points presented below comprise, generally, the current scholarly consensus on many of the topics.

1. The soma/homa cult originated in Turkmenistan.

2. Large scale migrations took place in Asia around 1600 BCE. (I suggest that these migratons, which coincided with the collapse of all Bronze Age civilizations, from Crete to the Indus, were caused by the eruption of the Santorini volcano in 1615 BCE.)

3. "Aryans" came to the Punjab from Turkmenistan (not Anatolya, e.g. Colin Renfrew). bringing the cults of soma and the sacred fire. These are the two central elements of ancient Indo-Iranian religion.

4. Soma rites are the most esteemed of Vedic shrauta rites.

5. There are three theories about soma that still have some scholarly support: ephedra, Syrian rue, and fly agaric.

6. Nearly all commentators agree that soma/haoma was a drug.

7. Ephedra is a mild stimulant, but like any stimulant, engenders a hangover. It is not visionary or psychedelic. Sustained use of large doses of ephedra is debilitating and can lead to tachycardia. But it may have been used sometimes as an additive to a "base" concoction (see below).

8. Ritualist appear to be "reborn" after a soma rite and not hungover.

9. The Labha Sukhta and Hom Yasht 9-11 appear, contra Falk et al., to indicate visionary or psychedelic experience.

10. Rue, at high doses, is almost psychedelic, but also highly destabilizing. It is not a psychedelic drug. It is dream-inducing: oneirophrenic. But rue contains MAOIs.

11. Wasson's fly agaric is a massive red herring (or red mushroom!). Since Wasson, people have been "finding" these mushrooms in Tibetan Buddhism, early Christianity and Greek mystery rites. I don't agree with any of these "findings".

Contra fly-agaric:

12. Even drying the mushrooms, thereby converting more of the ibotenic acid to muscimol, still does not eliminate toxins sufficiently to engender a ritual-friendly trip (blurred vision, stomach cramps, tremors etc.).

13. There is no pee drinking in the Vedas or Avesta.

14. Soma/haoma is the juice of stalks that need vigorous pounding. Stipes of mushrooms do not need pounding. In Siberia and Afghanistan the mushrooms are consumed whole, dried or peeled. Never are they pounded in mortar and pestle (as haoma is pounded in Zoroastrian and Mithraic rites, and with large stones in Vedic rites).

15. Fly agaric grows in many places in South Asia and worldwide. It is easily available.

16. If we are looking for a psychedelic, it was most probably a tryptamine, not a phenethylamine, and certainly not any plant containing scopolamine. Unlike the enthusiasm and reverence for the "classic" tryptamines (LSD in the 60s and 70s, psilocybin from the mid-70s, and ayahuasca, i.e. DMT + MAOIs, from the early 90s), nearly no one regularly drinks or eats fly agaric, even though it is easily available almost everywhere. Even Siberians often prefer alcohol to the mushrooms. Wasson himself tried the mushrooms many times but just felt sick and tired. Fly-agaric is, essentially, in my opinion, too toxic to be the queen of entheogens.

17. Soma was as purgative (see the Brahmanas). The purgative aspect is due to MAOIs, not DMT (see below). It was bitter and tawny coloured. During soma rites it is drunk about every three hours. Rites sometimes continue for several days. This has parallels with some ayahuasca rituals (see below).

18. In both the Vedas and Avesta there are references to "many somas/haomas": soma of the valleys, soma of the hills, soma of the rivers etc., in the Rigveda. "Many haomas" are mentioned several times in the Avesta.

19. Around 60 common plants contain DMT, and around 70 plants contain MAOIs. All 4,200 combinations work similarly as ayahuasca analogues.

20. In the Amazon region around 100 plants are used variously as additives to the base concoction for making ayahuasca, a mixture of DMT (in chacruna) and MAOIs (in the Banisteriopsis caapi vine). Recipes vary. It was the same in ancient Asia.

21. Soma/haoma was never one plant, it was many plants. As with curare, in South America, early researchers were wrong to think it was just one vine. Local shamans add lots of other plants as boosters.

22. Similarly, Ayurvedic formulas and Greek and Roman medicines often use complex plant formulas. The synergetic effect of some traditional, complex plant medicines is still poorly understood.

23. In the Materia Medica of India around 20 plants are called soma (including rue). Several of these plants contain either DMT or MAOIs. Virtually no phytochemical work has been done on the potential psychoactive properties of many plants called soma.

24. Soma/haoma was ayahuasca analogues. I identify around a dozen plants referred to in the Vedas and Avesta, some of which are known to contain DMT or MAOIs, which could have been used as soma/haoma concoctions.

25. The rituals of the Santo Daime church exhibit some striking parallels with Vedic ritual. This shows that regular, bi-weekly, life-long consumption of ayahuasca (or ayahuasca analogues) is quite compatible with sustained ritual activity and recitation of hymns/mantras.

26. The kykeon of the Greek mystery rites was also an ayahuasca analogue concoction.

27. Vedic and Zoroastrian soma/haoma rituals developed primarily as vehicles for a deep entheogenic trip, within a ritually confined and ordered space within which a trip could be safely and comfortably managed by trained priests.

My work on this topic is ongoing. I have made a few new discoveries since my book was published last year. Four articles that I have recently written on soma will be published next year.


Matthew Clark (SOAS).



On 09/10/2018 02:15, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY wrote:
Greetings,

Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on the identification of soma in the ?gveda with Amanita muscaria? I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Edelmann

Jonathan Edelmann ? Assistant Professor
University of Florida ? Department of Religion



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From ms156 at soas.ac.uk  Sun Oct 14 07:15:29 2018
From: ms156 at soas.ac.uk (Mark Singleton)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 18 08:15:29 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <229FA23D-FAA0-4E17-9C13-018ED9733497@unil.ch>
Message-ID: <3afefa21-9bfc-f9c7-851e-171ef691dc1d@soas.ac.uk>

Posting again on behalf of Matthew Clarke (awaiting acceptance to 
Indology list):

Dear Johannes, thanks for the question. Please excuse me, but I am in 
India at the moment, travelling light, and have no access to references. 
And I'm working just with my phone, so there will be errors in my text.

Firstly, I don't think Watson is quite right with his thesis or about 
the small number of psychoactive plants used in Asia. He fails to refer 
to publications on the use of psychoactive plants in New Guinea, for 
example.

The living tradition of the use of ayahuasca, epena, yopo etc. in South 
America has, in the last 70 years or so, led ethnobotanists to conduct 
tests on numerous plants, revealing their psychoactive properties. 
Richard Shultes and his students (Wade Davis, Mark Plotkin, Tim 
Ploughman, Glen Shepard, Mike Ballick, et al.) have been giants in this 
field.

As there is no living psychedelic tradition in South Asia (though there 
is a psychedelic haoma cult run by Qalandar Sufis in Iran - see my 
book), virtually no research into psychoactive plants in South Asia has 
been conducted so far.

In my book I have a preliminary "hit list" of a dozen plants. Leonti and 
Casu, in their important paper, provide details of 6 plants containing 
DMT, MAOIs, ephedrine and ibogaine. These plants are included in 
formulas for amrita that are in the Bower Manuscript. The two formulas 
for amrita in this text comprise around 100 plants, many of uncertain 
botanical classification. They observe that most of the plants have 
never been tested for psychoactive properties.

Additionally, I suggest that kusha/darbha grass deserves proper 
phytochemical analysis. Kusha is a relative of Phalaris grass, some 
varieties of which are rich in DMT. Giorgio Samorini has conducted 
extensive tests on Phalaris.

The variety of Arundo donax (Giant Reed) that grows in India has the 
highest DMT content of all varieties tested so far. I suggest that the 
mysterious hadhanaipata of the Avesta may be Arundo donax.

Praised in the highest terms in the AV is the kushta plant. I suggest 
that this may possibly be galangal (fragrant ginger), which is 
exceptionally rich in MAOIs.

The banyan, peepal, Butea frondosa (parna), and ficus glomerata, could, 
I speculate, also have psychoactive properties.

The soma oblation in Vedic rites is uncooked. Some South American groups 
press uncooked vines to extract the juice. I have come across anecdotal 
reports of successful "trips" using cold pressed Arundo donax.

There are unanswered questions in my thesis. Many plants need proper 
testing. But I believe that my ayahuasca analogue thesis gets the 
closest yet to answering the soma riddle.

Best regards, Matthew.



On 13/10/2018 10:18, Johannes Bronkhorst wrote:
>
> I am sympathetic to the arguments of Matthew Clark (I have not yet 
> seen his book), but wish to raise a question that may or may not be 
> relevant in this discussion:
>
> It has repeatedly been observed that there is a "striking anomaly" 
> between the much greater number of psychoactive plants known to the 
> original Americans, who had utilised between eighty and a hundred 
> different species, as compared with the much smaller number ? no more 
> than eight or ten ? used in the Old World (Peter Watson, /The Great 
> Divide/, Phoenix 2012, p. 193 ff., with references to Weston La Barre 
> and others). Clark, too, refers to psychedelic drugs (ayahuasca, 
> Daime, psilocybin) that are mainly known for their indigenous use in 
> the Americas. My question is therefore: What easily available plants 
> might have been used by the consumers of Soma? Is it enough to say 
> that certain plants contain DMT, certain others MAOIs, without 
> specifying how these could be subjected to relatively easy processes 
> that would result in psychedelic substances?
>
> Are there easy answers to these questions?
>
> Johannes Bronkhorst
>
>
>> On 13 Oct 2018, at 09:53, Mark Singleton via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> Posting on behalf of Matthew Clark (S0AS):
>>
>> In my book, "The Tawny One: Soma, Homa and Ayahuasca" (Muswell Hill 
>> Press, 2017), I take a fresh look at the soma/haoma issue. Summarized 
>> below is my argument. All the details, arguments, counter-arguments 
>> and references are supplied in my book. The points presented below 
>> comprise, generally, the current scholarly consensus on many of the 
>> topics.
>>
>> 1. The soma/homa cult originated in Turkmenistan.
>>
>> 2. Large scale migrations took place in Asia around 1600 BCE. (I 
>> suggest that these migratons, which coincided with the collapse of 
>> all Bronze Age civilizations, from Crete to the Indus, were caused by 
>> the eruption of the Santorini volcano in 1615 BCE.)
>>
>> 3. "Aryans" came to the Punjab from Turkmenistan (not Anatolya, e.g. 
>> Colin Renfrew). bringing the cults of soma and the sacred fire. These 
>> are the two central elements of ancient Indo-Iranian religion.
>>
>> 4. Soma rites are the most esteemed of Vedic shrauta rites.
>>
>> 5. There are three theories about soma that still have some scholarly 
>> support: ephedra, Syrian rue, and fly agaric.
>>
>> 6. Nearly all commentators agree that soma/haoma was a drug.
>>
>> 7. Ephedra is a mild stimulant, but like any stimulant, engenders a 
>> hangover. It is not visionary or psychedelic. Sustained use of large 
>> doses of ephedra is debilitating and can lead to tachycardia. But it 
>> may have been used sometimes as an additive to a "base" concoction 
>> (see below).
>>
>> 8. Ritualist appear to be "reborn" after a soma rite and not hungover.
>>
>> 9. The Labha Sukhta and Hom Yasht 9-11 appear, contra Falk et al., to 
>> indicate visionary or psychedelic experience.
>>
>> 10. Rue, at high doses, is almost psychedelic, but also highly 
>> destabilizing. It is not a psychedelic drug. It is dream-inducing: 
>> oneirophrenic. But rue contains MAOIs.
>>
>> 11. Wasson's fly agaric is a massive red herring (or red mushroom!). 
>> Since Wasson, people have been "finding" these mushrooms in Tibetan 
>> Buddhism, early Christianity and Greek mystery rites. I don't agree 
>> with any of these "findings".
>>
>> Contra fly-agaric:
>>
>> 12. Even drying the mushrooms, thereby converting more of the 
>> ibotenic acid to muscimol, still does not eliminate toxins 
>> sufficiently to engender a ritual-friendly trip (blurred vision, 
>> stomach cramps, tremors etc.).
>>
>> 13. There is no pee drinking in the Vedas or Avesta.
>>
>> 14. Soma/haoma is the juice of stalks that need vigorous pounding. 
>> Stipes of mushrooms do not need pounding. In Siberia and Afghanistan 
>> the mushrooms are consumed whole, dried or peeled. Never are they 
>> pounded in mortar and pestle (as haoma is pounded in Zoroastrian and 
>> Mithraic rites, and with large stones in Vedic rites).
>>
>> 15. Fly agaric grows in many places in South Asia and worldwide. It 
>> is easily available.
>>
>> 16. If we are looking for a psychedelic, it was most probably a 
>> tryptamine, not a phenethylamine, and certainly not any plant 
>> containing scopolamine. Unlike the enthusiasm and reverence for the 
>> "classic" tryptamines (LSD in the 60s and 70s, psilocybin from the 
>> mid-70s, and ayahuasca, i.e. DMT + MAOIs, from the early 90s), nearly 
>> no one regularly drinks or eats fly agaric, even though it is easily 
>> available almost everywhere. Even Siberians often prefer alcohol to 
>> the mushrooms. Wasson himself tried the mushrooms many times but just 
>> felt sick and tired. Fly-agaric is, essentially, in my opinion, too 
>> toxic to be the queen of entheogens.
>>
>> 17. Soma was as purgative (see the Brahmanas). The purgative aspect 
>> is due to MAOIs, not DMT (see below). It was bitter and tawny 
>> coloured. During soma rites it is drunk about every three hours. 
>> Rites sometimes continue for several days. This has parallels with 
>> some ayahuasca rituals (see below).
>>
>> 18. In both the Vedas and Avesta there are references to "many 
>> somas/haomas": soma of the valleys, soma of the hills, soma of the 
>> rivers etc., in the Rigveda. "Many haomas" are mentioned several 
>> times in the Avesta.
>>
>> 19. Around 60 common plants contain DMT, and around 70 plants contain 
>> MAOIs. All 4,200 combinations work similarly as ayahuasca analogues.
>>
>> 20. In the Amazon region around 100 plants are used variously as 
>> additives to the base concoction for making ayahuasca, a mixture of 
>> DMT (in chacruna) and MAOIs (in the Banisteriopsis caapi vine). 
>> Recipes vary. It was the same in ancient Asia.
>>
>> 21. Soma/haoma was never one plant, it was many plants. As with 
>> curare, in South America, early researchers were wrong to think it 
>> was just one vine. Local shamans add lots of other plants as boosters.
>>
>> 22. Similarly, Ayurvedic formulas and Greek and Roman medicines often 
>> use complex plant formulas. The synergetic effect of some 
>> traditional, complex plant medicines is still poorly understood.
>>
>> 23. In the Materia Medica of India around 20 plants are called soma 
>> (including rue). Several of these plants contain either DMT or MAOIs. 
>> Virtually no phytochemical work has been done on the potential 
>> psychoactive properties of many plants called soma.
>>
>> 24. Soma/haoma was ayahuasca analogues. I identify around a dozen 
>> plants referred to in the Vedas and Avesta, some of which are known 
>> to contain DMT or MAOIs, which could have been used as soma/haoma 
>> concoctions.
>>
>> 25. The rituals of the Santo Daime church exhibit some striking 
>> parallels with Vedic ritual. This shows that regular, bi-weekly, 
>> life-long consumption of ayahuasca (or ayahuasca analogues) is quite 
>> compatible with sustained ritual activity and recitation of 
>> hymns/mantras.
>>
>> 26. The kykeon of the Greek mystery rites was also an ayahuasca 
>> analogue concoction.
>>
>> 27. Vedic and Zoroastrian soma/haoma rituals developed primarily as 
>> vehicles for a deep entheogenic trip, within a ritually confined and 
>> ordered space within which a trip could be safely and comfortably 
>> managed by trained priests.
>>
>> My work on this topic is ongoing. I have made a few new discoveries 
>> since my book was published last year. Four articles that I have 
>> recently written on soma will be published next year.
>>
>>
>> Matthew Clark (SOAS).
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/10/2018 02:15, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies 
>>> on the identification of /soma/ in the ?gveda with /Amanita 
>>> muscaria/? I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, 
>>> etc. Any help appreciated.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Jonathan Edelmann
>>>
>>> Jonathan Edelmann?? Assistant Professor
>>> University of Florida?? Department of Religion
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info  (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info  (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or unsubscribe)
>



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From saf at safarmer.com  Sun Oct 14 07:36:42 2018
From: saf at safarmer.com (Steve Farmer)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 18 00:36:42 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <908b0e4c-4d69-a30a-a370-5ea47e617910@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <F6A3BC07-E6AC-49E2-BB9A-36B682168DF8@safarmer.com>

Dear Mark,

Thanks much for passing on this really interesting post from Matthew Clark, whose work I wasn?t aware of previously.

I?ve always viewed skeptically claims that all references to homa/soma over the long periods and vast regions in which its use was reported in antiquity referred to one psychoactive plant. I think that you and I discussed this at one point years ago. It is nice to see Matthew suggesting the same thing, backing his case with cross-cultural evidence involving ayahuasca, which has long been known to involve different mixtures of drugs in different S. American regions. 

That said, in discussing the different types of plants & drugs putatively linked to homa/soma, I suspect that Matthew underestimates the potential role of ephedra (or ephedrine), which like a long list of similar sympathomimetic drugs in modern use (cocaine, amphetamine, methamphetamine, methylphenidate, etc.) is capable with chronic use of triggering schizophrenic-like visions not substantially different from those produced (if more reliably) by the hallucinogenic substances used in ayahuasca or similar psychoactive mixtures in the premodern world.

Thus Matthew writes: 

>> 7. Ephedra is a mild stimulant, but like any stimulant, engenders a hangover. It is not visionary or psychedelic. 

A lot of medical evidence in fact exists that off-target effects of chronic use of ephedra and related sympathomimetic drugs do, in fact, include hallucinations, although that was not the reason the FDA banned ephedra?s use in 2004.  

I became aware of these issues when involved in the mid 1990s in studies of narcoleptics, whose treatment at the time commonly involved long-term use of high doses of methylphenidate, methamphetamine, and other sympathomimetics related structurally to the stimulants in ephedra. A frantic search was on at the time for replacements for those drugs since an increasing number of narcoleptics were having psychotic reactions to the drugs that involved visual and auditory hallucinations indistinguishable from those seen in schizophrenics and users of LSD and similar psychedelic drugs. 

New supposedly safer stimulants like modafinil eventually came on the market, but over time it turned out that hallucinations were among their common off-target effects as well. The reasons why that is try can be inferred from what I say below.

I solicited and collected in the mid 1990s numerous reports from narcoleptic patients, including some who became friends, of contacts with aliens (or alternately, depending on their cultural backgrounds) of communications with gods, angels, or demons, etc., attributable to the drugs and not the waking dreams narcoleptics (who are not psychotic) experience daily.

The evidence is very strong today that hallucinations of similar sorts can be triggered by many different kinds of drugs, not just those currently viewed as psychedelics. The similarities are explained by many recent fMRI and post-mortem anatomical studies that suggest that the main driver of hallucinations of all sorts involves disruptions of neural systems linking ?higher? cortical regions in the prefrontal cortex to subcortical networks and key integrative neural networks in the insula and linked cortical structures, e.g. the anterior cingulate. 

The key point here is that *any* disruptions to the default resting networks linking those regions ? whether deriving from ingestion of exogenous chemicals like those in ephedra or by specific neurological diseases (bipolar disorder, Parkinson?s, Alzheimer?s, Huntington?s disease, & many others that produce hallucinations) will lead to similar schizophrenic-like or waking-visions. 

For some suggestive evidence here, see this recent paper by a major group on auditory hallucinations in the _Schizophrenia Bulletin_ which suggests the existence of ?domain-general mechanisms for hallucinations? of all major types:

_Auditory Hallucinations and the Brain?s Resting-State Networks: Findings and Methodological Observations_:

Full paper downloadable here: http://tinyurl.com/ycfyhm5j

Other recent papers on Alzheimer?s disease and hallucinations and visual rather than auditory hallucinations come to the same conclusion. 

In sum, you can damage these networks in many different ways, but the existence of those disruptions and not the specific diseases or chemicals causing the damage is what defines the character of the hallucinations. 

And all this together implies that you will never be able to identify the drug or more likely multiple drugs behind the hoama/soma question from evidence in the different strata of Vedic or early Iranian texts describing the nature of the visions. Hallucinations on this model whether triggered by stimulants, psychedelics, intentionally cultivated visionary experience, visions induced by sleep deprivation, or for that matter a well-aimed hammer to the head can all be expected on a deep level to look pretty much the same.

Granted, however, that some hallucinations may be more pleasant than others:

https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/481451

Regards,
Steve Farmer

The Systems Biology Group
Palo Alto, California
saf at safarmer.com
  
> On Oct 13, 2018, at 12:53 AM, Mark Singleton via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Posting on behalf of Matthew Clark (S0AS): 
> 
> In my book, "The Tawny One: Soma, Homa and Ayahuasca" (Muswell Hill Press, 2017), I take a fresh look at the soma/haoma issue. Summarized below is my argument. All the details, arguments, counter-arguments and references are supplied in my book. The points presented below comprise, generally, the current scholarly consensus on many of the topics.
> 
> 1. The soma/homa cult originated in Turkmenistan.
> 
> 2. Large scale migrations took place in Asia around 1600 BCE. (I suggest that these migratons, which coincided with the collapse of all Bronze Age civilizations, from Crete to the Indus, were caused by the eruption of the Santorini volcano in 1615 BCE.)
> 
> 3. "Aryans" came to the Punjab from Turkmenistan (not Anatolya, e.g. Colin Renfrew). bringing the cults of soma and the sacred fire. These are the two central elements of ancient Indo-Iranian religion.
> 
> 4. Soma rites are the most esteemed of Vedic shrauta rites.
> 
> 5. There are three theories about soma that still have some scholarly support: ephedra, Syrian rue, and fly agaric.
> 
> 6. Nearly all commentators agree that soma/haoma was a drug.
> 
> 7. Ephedra is a mild stimulant, but like any stimulant, engenders a hangover. It is not visionary or psychedelic. Sustained use of large doses of ephedra is debilitating and can lead to tachycardia. But it may have been used sometimes as an additive to a "base" concoction (see below).
> 
> 8. Ritualist appear to be "reborn" after a soma rite and not hungover.
> 
> 9. The Labha Sukhta and Hom Yasht 9-11 appear, contra Falk et al., to indicate visionary or psychedelic experience.
> 
> 10. Rue, at high doses, is almost psychedelic, but also highly destabilizing. It is not a psychedelic drug. It is dream-inducing: oneirophrenic. But rue contains MAOIs.
> 
> 11. Wasson's fly agaric is a massive red herring (or red mushroom!). Since Wasson, people have been "finding" these mushrooms in Tibetan Buddhism, early Christianity and Greek mystery rites. I don't agree with any of these "findings".
> 
> Contra fly-agaric:
> 
> 12. Even drying the mushrooms, thereby converting more of the ibotenic acid to muscimol, still does not eliminate toxins sufficiently to engender a ritual-friendly trip (blurred vision, stomach cramps, tremors etc.). 
> 
> 13. There is no pee drinking in the Vedas or Avesta.
> 
> 14. Soma/haoma is the juice of stalks that need vigorous pounding. Stipes of mushrooms do not need pounding. In Siberia and Afghanistan the mushrooms are consumed whole, dried or peeled. Never are they pounded in mortar and pestle (as haoma is pounded in Zoroastrian and Mithraic rites, and with large stones in Vedic rites).
> 
> 15. Fly agaric grows in many places in South Asia and worldwide. It is easily available.
> 
> 16. If we are looking for a psychedelic, it was most probably a tryptamine, not a phenethylamine, and certainly not any plant containing scopolamine. Unlike the enthusiasm and reverence for the "classic" tryptamines (LSD in the 60s and 70s, psilocybin from the mid-70s, and ayahuasca, i.e. DMT + MAOIs, from the early 90s), nearly no one regularly drinks or eats fly agaric, even though it is easily available almost everywhere. Even Siberians often prefer alcohol to the mushrooms. Wasson himself tried the mushrooms many times but just felt sick and tired. Fly-agaric is, essentially, in my opinion, too toxic to be the queen of entheogens.
> 
> 17. Soma was as purgative (see the Brahmanas). The purgative aspect is due to MAOIs, not DMT (see below). It was bitter and tawny coloured. During soma rites it is drunk about every three hours. Rites sometimes continue for several days. This has parallels with some ayahuasca rituals (see below).
> 
> 18. In both the Vedas and Avesta there are references to "many somas/haomas": soma of the valleys, soma of the hills, soma of the rivers etc., in the Rigveda. "Many haomas" are mentioned several times in the Avesta.
> 
> 19. Around 60 common plants contain DMT, and around 70 plants contain MAOIs. All 4,200 combinations work similarly as ayahuasca analogues.
> 
> 20. In the Amazon region around 100 plants are used variously as additives to the base concoction for making ayahuasca, a mixture of DMT (in chacruna) and MAOIs (in the Banisteriopsis caapi vine). Recipes vary. It was the same in ancient Asia.
> 
> 21. Soma/haoma was never one plant, it was many plants. As with curare, in South America, early researchers were wrong to think it was just one vine. Local shamans add lots of other plants as boosters.
> 
> 22. Similarly, Ayurvedic formulas and Greek and Roman medicines often use complex plant formulas. The synergetic effect of some traditional, complex plant medicines is still poorly understood.
> 
> 23. In the Materia Medica of India around 20 plants are called soma (including rue). Several of these plants contain either DMT or MAOIs. Virtually no phytochemical work has been done on the potential psychoactive properties of many plants called soma.
> 
> 24. Soma/haoma was ayahuasca analogues. I identify around a dozen plants referred to in the Vedas and Avesta, some of which are known to contain DMT or MAOIs, which could have been used as soma/haoma concoctions.
> 
> 25. The rituals of the Santo Daime church exhibit some striking parallels with Vedic ritual. This shows that regular, bi-weekly, life-long consumption of ayahuasca (or ayahuasca analogues) is quite compatible with sustained ritual activity and recitation of hymns/mantras.
> 
> 26. The kykeon of the Greek mystery rites was also an ayahuasca analogue concoction.
> 
> 27. Vedic and Zoroastrian soma/haoma rituals developed primarily as vehicles for a deep entheogenic trip, within a ritually confined and ordered space within which a trip could be safely and comfortably managed by trained priests.
> 
> My work on this topic is ongoing. I have made a few new discoveries since my book was published last year. Four articles that I have recently written on soma will be published next year.
> 
> 
> Matthew Clark (SOAS).
> 
> 
> 
> On 09/10/2018 02:15, Jonathan Edelmann via INDOLOGY wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> Does anyone know of recent philological and pharmacological studies on the identification of soma in the ?gveda with Amanita muscaria? I?m aware of older studies by Wasson, Ingalls, Doniger, etc. Any help appreciated.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Jonathan Edelmann
>> 
>> Jonathan Edelmann ? Assistant Professor
>> University of Florida ? Department of Religion
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> 
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info
>>  (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> 
>> http://listinfo.indology.info
>>  (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Sun Oct 14 08:57:53 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 18 03:57:53 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Concerning the International Association of Sanskrit Studies
Message-ID: <CAANHO17dSbV-huQbHyewWrha0CRPfBnohk3Uf2yzGQFG6ETDEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

A number of Sanskrit scholars plan to present the following letter to the
International Association of Sanskrit Studies. We think it's important that
everyone in the field of Sanskrit studies who is concerned about its future
should have the opportunity to read it and add his or her voice. If you
would like to add your name, send a message to iassletter at gmail.com (not to
me, please). After a week or two, the list will be finalized and presented
to the IASS.

Andrew

------------------------------------

Current as of: October 11, 2018

(to sign, send a message to *iassletter at gmail.com <iassletter at gmail.com>*)


To the International Association of Sanskrit Studies:


The extremely well-organized World Sanskrit Conference that recently took
place at the University of British Columbia has given scholars of Sanskrit
all over the world an opportunity to reflect on the state of our field?an
opportunity that was, unfortunately, missed after the controversial events
of the preceding World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok. According to its
Statute <http://www.sanskritassociation.org/about-us.php>, the purpose of
the International Association of Sanskrit Studies (IASS) is to ?to promote,
diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
of the world; to maintain contacts with the organising committee of the
International Congresses of Asian and North African Studies; to organise
international conferences of Sanskrit studies; to promote scholarly
publication of Sanskrit-based studies; to establish and foster relations
with national associations of Sanskrit studies.?

We, the undersigned, believe that the IASS could do much more to ?promote,
diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
of the world.? Taking this mission statement seriously would involve
expanding the range of activities of the IASS. More importantly, it would
require the IASS to strenuously avoid any actions or remarks, on the part
of its members and leadership, which can do serious harm to the goal of
fostering Sanskrit Studies globally, and to distance itself, as a
professional organization, from such actions or remarks as already have
been made. The Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, a former
institutional member of the IASS, has withdrawn
<https://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/iass.html> its membership on precisely
these grounds (see ZDMG 168.1 [2018], p. 253), and it is possible that
other individual and institutional members will follow suit unless the IASS
develops appropriate responses to the challenges currently facing its
future.

Specifically, we would like to see the IASS do the following:

   -

   Make all offices of the Board subject to regular election. Currently the
   offices of General Secretary, Treasurer, and President are not subject to a
   regular election. It is crucial that the members of the association are
   able to elect the leadership of the association on a regular basis.
   -

   Call an election of the Board before the end of 2018. The members of the
   IASS must have the opportunity to decide who will represent them as office
   holders, and above all, as President of the Association.
   -

   Make it absolutely clear that the IASS is a scholarly organization, and
   that membership in the organization, and participation in the World
   Sanskrit Conference, requires a scholarly engagement with Sanskrit.
   -

   Sever any ties, official or unofficial, between the IASS and any
   national governments.
   -

   Create connections between Sanskrit studies and other disciplines. The
   study of Sanskrit has always had the potential for close connections to the
   disciplines of history, philosophy, linguistics, philology, sociology,
   anthropology, literary studies, religious studies, gender studies, and many
   more. The IASS should forge connections between its members and the
   professional organizations that represent those disciplines.
   -

   Form committees devoted to professional issues, publication, research,
   diversity, and programming, which will produce reports on a regular basis
   .
   -

   Originate guidelines for the conduct of future WSC meetings and other
   IASS-sponsored activities that emphasise professionalism, neutrality, and
   independence.

It may be the case that these changes cannot be implemented without
rewriting the Statute of the IASS. In that case, we request that the IASS
will involve a diverse selection of scholars, drawn from outside the
current Board and Consultative Committee, to assist in making the required
changes, and that this process be as transparent as possible. We also
sincerely request the IASS Board to respond to these suggestions in a
timely manner and apprise the undersigned scholars what steps it will take
and when. We consider these issues to be of utmost importance. We are
concerned that if the IASS does not take appropriate steps as a matter of
urgency, even more scholars will abandon the Association and its
conferences, to the detriment of international Sanskrit studies.

Signed [in alphabetical order],


Yigal Bronner

Jonardon Ganeri

Mrinal Kaul

Jim Mallinson

Andrew Ollett

Karin Preisendanz

Ajay Rao

Isabelle Ratie

Martha Ann Selby

David Shulman

Gary Tubb

Dominik Wujastyk


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From r.stuhrmann at t-online.de  Sun Oct 14 09:13:28 2018
From: r.stuhrmann at t-online.de (rainer stuhrmann)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 18 11:13:28 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <908b0e4c-4d69-a30a-a370-5ea47e617910@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <a633f155-d536-c22e-15bf-7087567e68e5@t-online.de>

Thank you, dear Mr. Singleton and dear Mr. Clark, for this interesting 
punctuation.

I of course appreciate everybody who sees that in the RV Soma was a real 
hallucinogenic drug that was actually comsumed and that the Soma stanzas 
are not about felt visions etc gained through exercises like fasting, 
thirsting or sleep deprivation.

I just want to deal in short with those points that are listed under the 
header ?Contra fly agaric? (12-27)

I refer to the points given in a short way and add the pages of a paper, 
where that counterarguments are dealt with in detail (?gvedische 
Lichtaufnahmen: Soma botanisch, pharmakologisch, in den Augen der 
Kavis./Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (EJVS), Vol. 13, Issue 1, 
2006, p. 1-93)/

But first I like to insert point 0:

Somahas been substituted by other plants even in the latest book (10) of 
the Rigveda (p. 41ff ).

So, whatever it was in the Br?hma?a or the Avesta, for the Soma of the 
Rigveda, you have to look at the Rigveda.

Now with reference to the points given:

ad 12 . While that is true, it did not hinder the Sibirians to consume 
the fly-agaric even raw, the dreaded side-effects are also mentionend in 
the Rigveda, see p. 47 ff.

Btw: different fly-agaric populations have different effects in 
different regions and also different contents of muscimol within one and 
the same population. Best thing do to: dry them and mix them up for 
concoction., see p. 29ff

ad 13. Urin: true, but an argumentum ex silentio and then also not a 
premise at all for consuming the fly-agaric. You can even eat (not 
advisable) it raw. To make a mixture with an even distributed content of 
muscimol for every one s. point 12. , best thing is to soak them and 
press them out.

ad 14. /a???/ does not mean stalk or fibre, it is the proper name of the 
plant. Nowhere in the RV it is said that the plant is pounded 
vigourously. If the poets use stonger roots like /?han/ oder 
/sam-?pi??//,///that is together with useful herbs or plants 
/??ad?i(i)/, words that are never used for ?pressing ? Soma, ?the 
pressed one?, p.41f. Soaked mushrooms are actually to be dealt with like 
fruits or berries: they are pressed out by the help of stones, but also 
wooden boards, p.26, there are even hints that they were also pressed 
out by hand, p. 25f. Btw after soaking the soma plant is swelling 
/?pyaa/ viz. what dried mushrooms /(?Schwammerl?/ in South Germany and 
Austria) do, it is likened to something bellied like an udder and so on, 
it is milked from the bellies, the swollen /a???/?s are milked like the 
udders of a cow, and so forth, 27ff.

ad 15.It is not easy availabe in the plains of the Punjab, because in 
India it only grows in mycorrhizal relationship with birch tres and 
koniferes, found in the Himalayas about a height from 1300m altitude 
onwards, 38f, Soma only grows in the mountains, p.39ff

ad 16. It is nowhere said in the RV that Soma was an all day beverage, 
the amount of soma-stanzas separately collected in book 9 is due to its 
impact, but does not signify comsumption on a weekly or monthly basis.

Btw: even Indians today prefer alcohol.

ad 17. see point O.

ad 18. not true for the RV; for the interpretation ofthe ?many somas? in 
the Avesta , Y.10,17, see. p.39ff

In the RV it is a single plant, from which a concoction is prepared on 
the ritual place.

Points 19 - 27 are, though still listed unter the heading ?Contra 
fly-agaric?, no counterarguments at all,but only a list of the use of a 
combination of MAOI and DMT containing plants for visisonary experiences 
elsewehere and its possible usein India and elsewhere.

Best regards

Rainer Stuhrmann



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From vajpeyi at csds.in  Sun Oct 14 10:16:30 2018
From: vajpeyi at csds.in (Ananya Vajpeyi)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 18 15:46:30 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Concerning the International Association of Sanskrit Studies
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO17dSbV-huQbHyewWrha0CRPfBnohk3Uf2yzGQFG6ETDEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxuC0Q1gEuYSqAJZFadUr8Ga255nExHP6H2zYTXQhrrTCFGZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

It has been 3 months since the World Sanskrit Conference in Vancouver, and
it's heartening to see that fellow-scholars have got together to suggest a
constructive and positive way forward for the IASS. The statement is a
precise formulation of concerns shared by many and a helpful key to what
can be done to address problems that have lingered for years, if not
decades. Thanks to the authors and to current and future signatories, and
to all who have participated vigorously in the debate in good faith, no
matter what their personal views on this or that issue.

Sincerely,

Ananya Vajpeyi.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 2:27 PM
Subject: Concerning the International Association of Sanskrit Studies
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>


Dear Colleagues,

A number of Sanskrit scholars plan to present the following letter to the
International Association of Sanskrit Studies. We think it's important that
everyone in the field of Sanskrit studies who is concerned about its future
should have the opportunity to read it and add his or her voice. If you
would like to add your name, send a message to iassletter at gmail.com (not to
me, please). After a week or two, the list will be finalized and presented
to the IASS.

Andrew

------------------------------------

Current as of: October 11, 2018

(to sign, send a message to *iassletter at gmail.com <iassletter at gmail.com>*)


To the International Association of Sanskrit Studies:


The extremely well-organized World Sanskrit Conference that recently took
place at the University of British Columbia has given scholars of Sanskrit
all over the world an opportunity to reflect on the state of our field?an
opportunity that was, unfortunately, missed after the controversial events
of the preceding World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok. According to its
Statute <http://www.sanskritassociation.org/about-us.php>, the purpose of
the International Association of Sanskrit Studies (IASS) is to ?to promote,
diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
of the world; to maintain contacts with the organising committee of the
International Congresses of Asian and North African Studies; to organise
international conferences of Sanskrit studies; to promote scholarly
publication of Sanskrit-based studies; to establish and foster relations
with national associations of Sanskrit studies.?

We, the undersigned, believe that the IASS could do much more to ?promote,
diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
of the world.? Taking this mission statement seriously would involve
expanding the range of activities of the IASS. More importantly, it would
require the IASS to strenuously avoid any actions or remarks, on the part
of its members and leadership, which can do serious harm to the goal of
fostering Sanskrit Studies globally, and to distance itself, as a
professional organization, from such actions or remarks as already have
been made. The Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, a former
institutional member of the IASS, has withdrawn
<https://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/iass.html> its membership on precisely
these grounds (see ZDMG 168.1 [2018], p. 253), and it is possible that
other individual and institutional members will follow suit unless the IASS
develops appropriate responses to the challenges currently facing its
future.

Specifically, we would like to see the IASS do the following:

   -

   Make all offices of the Board subject to regular election. Currently the
   offices of General Secretary, Treasurer, and President are not subject to a
   regular election. It is crucial that the members of the association are
   able to elect the leadership of the association on a regular basis.
   -

   Call an election of the Board before the end of 2018. The members of the
   IASS must have the opportunity to decide who will represent them as office
   holders, and above all, as President of the Association.
   -

   Make it absolutely clear that the IASS is a scholarly organization, and
   that membership in the organization, and participation in the World
   Sanskrit Conference, requires a scholarly engagement with Sanskrit.
   -

   Sever any ties, official or unofficial, between the IASS and any
   national governments.
   -

   Create connections between Sanskrit studies and other disciplines. The
   study of Sanskrit has always had the potential for close connections to the
   disciplines of history, philosophy, linguistics, philology, sociology,
   anthropology, literary studies, religious studies, gender studies, and many
   more. The IASS should forge connections between its members and the
   professional organizations that represent those disciplines.
   -

   Form committees devoted to professional issues, publication, research,
   diversity, and programming, which will produce reports on a regular basis
   .
   -

   Originate guidelines for the conduct of future WSC meetings and other
   IASS-sponsored activities that emphasise professionalism, neutrality, and
   independence.

It may be the case that these changes cannot be implemented without
rewriting the Statute of the IASS. In that case, we request that the IASS
will involve a diverse selection of scholars, drawn from outside the
current Board and Consultative Committee, to assist in making the required
changes, and that this process be as transparent as possible. We also
sincerely request the IASS Board to respond to these suggestions in a
timely manner and apprise the undersigned scholars what steps it will take
and when. We consider these issues to be of utmost importance. We are
concerned that if the IASS does not take appropriate steps as a matter of
urgency, even more scholars will abandon the Association and its
conferences, to the detriment of international Sanskrit studies.

Signed [in alphabetical order],


Yigal Bronner

Jonardon Ganeri

Mrinal Kaul

Jim Mallinson

Andrew Ollett

Karin Preisendanz

Ajay Rao

Isabelle Ratie

Martha Ann Selby

David Shulman

Gary Tubb

Dominik Wujastyk



-- 

Ananya Vajpeyi
Fellow and Associate Professor
Centre for the Study of Developing Societies
29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines
New Delhi 110054
e: vajpeyi at csds.in
http://www.csds.in/faculty_ananya_vajpeyi.htm


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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Sun Oct 14 22:44:03 2018
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 18 22:44:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Belated report on the 17th WSC in Vancouver
Message-ID: <ME1PR01MB203460D937EDD470D92C021DAEFC0@ME1PR01MB2034.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/news/1035/17th-world-sanskrit-conference-vancouver-2018

[http://style.anu.edu.au/_anu/4/images/logos/anu_logo_fb_350.png]<http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/news/1035/17th-world-sanskrit-conference-vancouver-2018>

The 17th World Sanskrit Conference, Vancouver, 2018 - CHL ...<http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/news/1035/17th-world-sanskrit-conference-vancouver-2018>
chl.anu.edu.au
It is easy to love Vancouver in the summertime: long mild days, trees in full leaf and snow on the mountain tops across the water. The University of British Columbia campus occupies most of a peninsular that juts out into the Strait of Georgia and is fringed by national park that drops down to the water?s edge.




------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


[1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]

Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'


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From Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu  Mon Oct 15 02:34:33 2018
From: Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 02:34:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
Message-ID: <CY4PR02MB3285B9154D521D46787263FBECFD0@CY4PR02MB3285.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Just a note that is it certainly untrue that South Asia lacks living traditions involving consumption of psychedelic plants; shamans in Nepal, for example, have a rich and diverse tradition of using dozens of such plants.  On this, see the following excellent and heavily photo-documented book:  *Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas* by Claudia Mu?ller-Ebeling; Christian Ra?tsch, 2002.

Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
Dept. of Liberal Studies
Western Washington University




From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 03:29:31 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 08:59:31 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR02MB3285B9154D521D46787263FBECFD0@CY4PR02MB3285.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebpTEVFhQeLPCO8S3aS31M=OgZmUp+FcNZQ9DGS_p9ZWg@mail.gmail.com>

In Bhagavadgita, we have

???????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ? ??-???

This usage of the word Soma indicates that at least by the time of
composition of Gita, Soma has been viewed as the Rasa that provides the
common quality to all the (medicinal) plants.

Even if this usage is viewed as the result of a semantic change from the
Vedic usage, there has to be a common semantic connection between the two
usages that lead to this semantic change.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Michael Slouber via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Just a note that is it certainly untrue that South Asia lacks living
> traditions involving consumption of psychedelic plants; shamans in Nepal,
> for example, have a rich and diverse tradition of using dozens of such
> plants.  On this, see the following excellent and heavily photo-documented
> book:  *Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas* by Claudia Mu?ller-Ebeling;
> Christian Ra?tsch, 2002.
>
> Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
> Dept. of Liberal Studies
> Western Washington University
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it  Mon Oct 15 07:57:36 2018
From: davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it (David Pierdominici)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 09:57:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] scan copy
Message-ID: <BB61C8FE-12A7-43B8-915D-E865BDC873BD@uniroma1.it>

Dear list members,

does anyone have by any chance a pdf of the Samaskrita Ranga Annual, vol. no.6, 1972? It does not seem to be available in the library I am currently visiting.
I would be very grateful for any help.
Best,

David Pierdominici Le?o
Ph.D., Gonda Fellow, IIAS
Academia: https://uniroma1.academia.edu/DavidPierdominici
Mobile +39 3407303232
Skype: davidpaolo89



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From veerankp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 11:13:30 2018
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 16:43:30 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Belated report on the 17th WSC in Vancouver
In-Reply-To: <ME1PR01MB203460D937EDD470D92C021DAEFC0@ME1PR01MB2034.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnSTei=gyzJGj6__5hspA6-g44VLi5FcqpgMgkRe2H+tH7Skw@mail.gmail.com>

It is more balanced one.
I hope the organisers of WSCs take more care to involve indian scholars  so
that they can see what is happening in other parts. Most western colleagues
will be able to attend wscs held anywhere in the globe. But It is difficult
for Indian collegues to attend them if are held outside India due to
various reasons. Moreover "important" new western papers will escape the
strict scrutiny because there are very less experts outside in many areas.

*Most important thing is we have to collaborate with each other for the
sake of Samskrit rather than being carried away  by screeming.*

we have to work in a manner that helps it grow. We need to concentrate on
serious understanding, serious teaching, help it's spread.

I request to all my western collegues to help  who are really working hard
for Samskrit, if you really want to help Samskrit.

Help the desirous students to study Samskrit properly, rather than to make
superficial studies without any substance. There are somany most urgent
things to in Samskrit studies like preservation of manuscripts, study and
publishing than screeming. Every day we are loosing manuscripts.

Help meritorious students irrespective of caste and creed. Don't
discriminate. But don't support  non-scholars who act like Samskrit
scholars. These are the enemies of Samskrit. They will produce only
non-scholars, chain will continue.

Please do not support the persons who do not/can not teach Samskrit
properly who can't do serious research in Samskrit.

Samskrit studies are shrinking globally as you know very well. It is the
same situation here too. While the field is seeing many new scholars from
other fields, and it is good, we are also seeing long list of incapable
teachers being daily appointed in Samskrit universities/ Samskrit
departments allover India due to various nonsense reasons and political
policies. These teachers will certainly kill Samskrit, if it is not dead
already.
Support these teachers if you too want to see Samskrit dead.
Please come to Indian universities to witness the new age scholars
teaching, you can work with them too. Read Tarkatandava, Vakyapaeeya and
Mahabhashya with them. You will understand it. And I believe many people
crying all these days on this list would like to do it too.

*Or else, wake up, do something for Samskrit.* *Establish libraries, send
your books and articles, come and tell what you reseached, interact, push
Indian government to adopt good policies for Samskrit, because many in
India think that there should be something in Samskrit if Americans are
studying it.*


My message is too belated. Sorry for that.


On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 04:14 McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/news/1035/17th-world-sanskrit-conference-vancouver-2018
>
> <http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/news/1035/17th-world-sanskrit-conference-vancouver-2018>
> The 17th World Sanskrit Conference, Vancouver, 2018 - CHL ...
> <http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/news/1035/17th-world-sanskrit-conference-vancouver-2018>
> chl.anu.edu.au
> It is easy to love Vancouver in the summertime: long mild days, trees in
> full leaf and snow on the mountain tops across the water. The University of
> British Columbia campus occupies most of a peninsular that juts out into
> the Strait of Georgia and is fringed by national park that drops down to
> the water?s edge.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>
> Ask me about my new project:
>
> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 15:28:44 2018
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 15:28:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] opinion piece from Le Monde on Open Access publishing
Message-ID: <HE1PR0902MB17535C7BE9539BDCDD0752B0A5FD0@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,


A few days ago, Le Monde carried an interesting opinion piece on the issue of "Open Access" publishing in scholarly journals, in reaction to the European policies unfolded here <https://www.scienceeurope.org/coalition-s/>.

Science Europe ? cOAlition S<https://www.scienceeurope.org/coalition-s/>
www.scienceeurope.org
cOAlition S. What is cOALition S? On 4 September 2018, a group national research funding organisation, with the support of the European Commission and the European Research Council (ERC), announced the launch of cOAlition S, an initiative to make full and immediate Open Access to research publications a reality.


Poignantly, Le Monde's business model does not involve free accessibility of all content. This opinion piece, for instance, is accessible only to subscribers. I am one, so I have printed the article to pdf and am attaching it hereto, for those of you are interested and can read French.


Best wishes,


Arlo Griffiths

EFEO, Paris






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From shyamr at yorku.ca  Mon Oct 15 16:23:58 2018
From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 12:23:58 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
Message-ID: <80a6b526-c4a0-87df-fd5d-ea83bb9c718d@yorku.ca>

Dear all,

Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.

I recall that in /India and Europe,/ Halbfass discusses the development 
of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an 
interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this 
topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of 
India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) 
where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not 
sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was 
wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or 
book).

Thanks,

Shyam


-- 

Shyam Ranganathan

Department of Philosophy

York Center for Asian Research
York University, Toronto

shyam-ranganathan.info <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>

/Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation 
<https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>/

/The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics 
<http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>/

/Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras 
<http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>/?(Translation, 
Edition and Commentary)

/Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin 
Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>/

Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>



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From shyamr at yorku.ca  Mon Oct 15 16:25:31 2018
From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 12:25:31 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
Message-ID: <70d3d97d-c2de-1ffa-497d-b116a27545fa@yorku.ca>

Dear all,

Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.

I recall that in /India and Europe,/ Halbfass discusses the development 
of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an 
interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this 
topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of 
India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) 
where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not 
sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was 
wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or 
book).

Thanks,

Shyam


-- 

Shyam Ranganathan

Department of Philosophy

York Center for Asian Research
York University, Toronto

shyam-ranganathan.info <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>

/Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation 
<https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>/

/The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics 
<http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>/

/Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras 
<http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>/?(Translation, 
Edition and Commentary)

/Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin 
Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>/

Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Oct 15 17:07:33 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 17:07:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
In-Reply-To: <70d3d97d-c2de-1ffa-497d-b116a27545fa@yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B79E17@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Not again!

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 15 oktober 2018 18:25
Aan: INDOLOGY
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India


Dear all,

Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.

I recall that in India and Europe, Halbfass discusses the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).

Thanks,

Shyam


--
Shyam Ranganathan
Department of Philosophy
York Center for Asian Research
York University, Toronto

shyam-ranganathan.info <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>

Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation<https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>

The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics<http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>

Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras<http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/> (Translation, Edition and Commentary)

Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin Concepts<https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>

Full List, Publications<https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>




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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Mon Oct 15 19:21:47 2018
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 21:21:47 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
In-Reply-To: <1539620831662.1796146748@boxbe>
Message-ID: <1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>

Dear Shyam, dear listfolk, 


" the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India"? That is the central thesis of Sheldon Pollock's paper Ex Oriente Nox, 1993, and this is my refutation: 

http://www.academia.edu/33837547/PurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx 


On " the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory": India was treated as a kind of prehistory of Europe during the first decades after the official annunciation of Indo-European unity in 1786. And even before, vide passing remarks in that sense by Voltaire, Kant and Herder. Details available in my (in other respects already dated) paper: 

http://www.academia.edu/14458226/Why_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question 

And in my book Asterisk in Bh?rop?yasth?n, of which the relevant chapters are available on-line: 

http://www.academia.edu/20084004/_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 

http://www.academia.edu/20084136/_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 

As for the swastika: if Hitler, who repeatedly expressed his contempt for India and Hinduism (as opposed to Islam: martial and natalistic and thus an example to follow), would never have chosen the Swastika if he had associated it with India. In his view, Indians received the benefit of the Swastika from the invading Aryans from Europe. He was a Philhellene (Grecophile) and the Swastika was a common motif in Greece and Troy. It also existed marginally in the European Middle Ages, and especially, even till today, in the Baltic states. There, in 1919-20, German WW1-returned soldiers formed the Freikorps militias to fight off Soviet aggression, and they brought it home. Many of these combative nationalists flocked to the budding NSDAP. Hitler vaguely knew that the Swastika was popular in Asia, but he attributed that to importation by the invading "Aryans". The Nazis and all other Europeans at that time located the Homeland somewhere in Europe. Most favoured at that time was the Pripyet swamps in Belorus, but Germany, Scandinavia, the Balkans and also already the Pontic steppes were other candidates, and Heinrich Himmler's research instititute Ahnenerbe even thought of Atlantis; but at any rate not India. Nor Tibet, where the SS sent an expedition but found that the Tibetans had the broadest skulls of all, whereas Aryans were supposed to be dolichocephalic. 

In 1920, Hitler even explicitly formulated the Aryan Invasion Theory (references in one of the above papers), complete with upper-castes as mongrelized immigrants from Europe. Interestingly, some Indian AIT champions have recently revived this view, on the primitive assumption that the linguistic Homeland question can be solved by genetics, the more advanced form of the physical anthropology so dear to the Nazis. 

As for "Aryan", of course the substance of the word came from Sanskrit, but a century before Nazism started. The attributed meaning was already a reinterpretation. It never had a racial meaning (in the physical-anthropological sense), though it had a relative-ethnic meaning: "fellow tribesman", "us". Hindu apologists will tell you that it only means "noble", but that is already a derived meaning. See: 

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html (please ignore the garbled chapter numeration) 

and (you might be surprised by the title, as I was when discovering this hypothesis): 

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html 

I have more stuff on this topic, all generated by debates with existing opposite viewpoints. There are many misconceptions and mystifications in this field (often deliberately kept alive for political reasons), yet you only need to read Hitler's brief but crystal-clear statements on Hindus and on Aryans to start pin-pricking them. 

Hope this helps. 


Dr. Koenraad Elst, non-affiliated Orientalist 


Van: "Indology" <indology at list.indology.info> 
Aan: "Indology" <indology at list.indology.info> 
Verzonden: Maandag 15 oktober 2018 18:23:58 
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India, 





>I recall that in India and Europe, Halbfass discusses the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).< 


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Oct 15 23:07:57 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 18 16:07:57 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeBT=QJY_EN_GqYo+reJ3u33Txe5Sbx0UV2Lo7k2k_3BA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

???????????? ??????? ?????????? ????: ?
?????????? ?????? ?????????????? ???????
When the Moon of Krishna rises, cool like the moon with snowy rays, the
torments of the world vanish with the touch of its rays.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 17:04:53 2018
From: olga.nowicka00 at gmail.com (Olga Nowicka)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 18 19:04:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland - digitization project
Message-ID: <CAFLy5L2Z=YnqzNLxrDMtw08xF8Cf3aXd3DbjK=m0nqA_NePiww@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
During my recent stay in London I visited the library of Royal Asiatic
Society of Great Britain and Ireland where I learned from the librarian
that this year they started to digitize their manuscript collections. First
portion of the digitized manuscripts belongs to Whish Collection.
All digitized texts are in open access and you can find it by clicking on
the link below:
https://archive.org/details/royalasiaticsociety

Kind regards,
Olga Nowicka
Department of Languages and Cultures of India and South Asia
Institute of Oriental Studies
Jagiellonian University, Cracow


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Tue Oct 16 17:27:08 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 18 19:27:08 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 69, Issue 16
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1539705605.25736.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <9f9336ef-f394-bcf1-c98d-d980851de64e@wanadoo.fr>

People obsessed with Nazism, Hitler or racism should not be allowed to 
post on the list.

This kind of post is just nauseating.

Is it possible to put this person on no-post status or just ban him?

Thanks

With kind regards.


Arnaud Fournet

Independent researcher

La Garenne Colombes



Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit?:
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 12:23:58 -0400
> From: Shyam Ranganathan<shyamr at yorku.ca>
> To: Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY<indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
> Message-ID:<80a6b526-c4a0-87df-fd5d-ea83bb9c718d at yorku.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>
> I recall that in /India and Europe,/ Halbfass discusses the development
> of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an
> interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this
> topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of
> India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance)
> where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not
> sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was
> wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or
> book).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shyam



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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Tue Oct 16 17:42:38 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 18 19:42:38 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 69, Issue 16
In-Reply-To: <9f9336ef-f394-bcf1-c98d-d980851de64e@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFt4fQqSV5oB0q52rc=651guG1nhejtkBOq0AgKZUxXObA@mail.gmail.com>

Shyam Ranganathan does not seem to be  "obsessed with Nazism, Hitler or
racism".

Perfectly neutral request.

Regards,

Artur Karp (ret.)
Chair of South Asian Studies
University of Warsaw
Poland

2018-10-16 19:27 GMT+02:00 Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> People obsessed with Nazism, Hitler or racism should not be allowed to
> post on the list.
>
> This kind of post is just nauseating.
>
> Is it possible to put this person on no-post status or just ban him?
>
> Thanks
>
> With kind regards.
>
>
> Arnaud Fournet
>
> Independent researcher
>
> La Garenne Colombes
>
>
>
> Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit :
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 12:23:58 -0400
> From: Shyam Ranganathan <shyamr at yorku.ca> <shyamr at yorku.ca>
> To: Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
> Message-ID: <80a6b526-c4a0-87df-fd5d-ea83bb9c718d at yorku.ca> <80a6b526-c4a0-87df-fd5d-ea83bb9c718d at yorku.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear all,
>
> Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>
> I recall that in /India and Europe,/ Halbfass discusses the development
> of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an
> interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this
> topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of
> India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance)
> where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not
> sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was
> wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or
> book).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shyam
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Tue Oct 16 17:50:16 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 18 19:50:16 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 69, Issue 16
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFt4fQqSV5oB0q52rc=651guG1nhejtkBOq0AgKZUxXObA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84f2bb5e-a26d-ba09-181a-f09de64d520b@wanadoo.fr>

Then, why are these words appearing every two lines, in his posts and 
Elst's ones?

Arnaud Fournet


Le 16/10/2018 ? 19:42, Artur Karp a ?crit?:
> Shyam Ranganathan does not seem to be? "obsessed with Nazism, Hitler 
> or racism".
>
> Perfectly neutral request.
>
> Regards,
>
> Artur Karp (ret.)
> Chair of South Asian Studies
> University of Warsaw
> Poland
>
> 2018-10-16 19:27 GMT+02:00 Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
>
>     People obsessed with Nazism, Hitler or racism should not be
>     allowed to post on the list.
>
>     This kind of post is just nauseating.
>
>     Is it possible to put this person on no-post status or just ban him?
>
>     Thanks
>
>     With kind regards.
>
>
>     Arnaud Fournet
>
>     Independent researcher
>
>     La Garenne Colombes
>
>
>
>     Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit?:
>>     Message: 1
>>     Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 12:23:58 -0400
>>     From: Shyam Ranganathan<shyamr at yorku.ca> <mailto:shyamr at yorku.ca>
>>     To: Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY<indology at list.indology.info> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
>>     Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
>>     Message-ID:<80a6b526-c4a0-87df-fd5d-ea83bb9c718d at yorku.ca>
>>     <mailto:80a6b526-c4a0-87df-fd5d-ea83bb9c718d at yorku.ca>
>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>
>>     Dear all,
>>
>>     Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>>
>>     I recall that in /India and Europe,/ Halbfass discusses the development
>>     of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an
>>     interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this
>>     topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of
>>     India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance)
>>     where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not
>>     sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was
>>     wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or
>>     book).
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>
>>     Shyam
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>



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From veerankp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 19:02:58 2018
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 18 00:32:58 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New research on dating Brhadaranyaka
Message-ID: <CAPnSTegJcNyksP1oyMHFGQchsXVy=zHO94_YmV_LBnT+bZqVKA@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to know about new/ or relatively new research on the dating of
brihadaranyakopanisad. Thanks in advance for all.


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From shenyiming.bas at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 19:57:39 2018
From: shenyiming.bas at gmail.com (Yiming)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 18 21:57:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] <Call for Papers> Coffee Break Conference, Oxford 2018
Message-ID: <CAHKdJ06-7wrFf9wu=_sNO=Z1YJRccTcCxg0a9xvAOU3dhwsDvQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Coffee Break Conference, Oxford 2018*

*Call for papers*



We invite proposals for papers for the 9th Coffee Break Conference, which
will be hosted at Wolfson College, University of Oxford, 4-6 December 2018.



The theme of the conference this year is "Science and Technology in
Premodern Asia." We welcome proposals of papers on the topics of (1)
Mathematics & Astronomy and (2) Technology & Applied Science, both in
premodern Asia. The papers can be based upon all research methods;
cross-cultural or cross-disciplinary approaches are especially welcome.
Doctoral students are also invited to submit proposals.



Before the conference, papers and handouts will be pre-circulated among all
the participants. Each speaker will be allotted 20 minutes for the paper
and another 20 minutes for discussion.



We will be able to cover the 3-night accommodation in Oxford for every
participant. We may also have funding to partly cover travel expenses (in
principle, only within Europe), but we expect participants to pay for most
of their other expenses. There are no registration fees for the conference.



We are delighted to announce that our keynote speaker for the conference
will be Prof. Christopher Minkowski, Boden Professor of Sanskrit at the
University of Oxford.



If you would like to give a paper on the theme of Mathematics & Astronomy,
please send a title and abstract (max. 300 words) to Matt Kimberley,
Matt.Kimberley at bl.uk, by 31 October.



For papers on the theme of Technology & Applied Science, please send a
title and abstract (max. 300 words) to Dr. Jonathan Duquette,
jonathan.duquette at orinst.ox.ac.uk, by 31 October.



Further information about the conference will soon be available.



For any other question, please contact Yiming Shen (
yiming.shen at wolfson.ox.ac.uk) or Dr. Jonathan Duquette (
jonathan.duquette at orinst.ox.ac.uk).


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From ms156 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Oct 17 12:01:21 2018
From: ms156 at soas.ac.uk (Mark Singleton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 18 14:01:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reminder: SOAS workshop on traditional physical practices in India
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebpTEVFhQeLPCO8S3aS31M=OgZmUp+FcNZQ9DGS_p9ZWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd35434d-d878-7a14-1dde-9ab96f3c5c38@soas.ac.uk>

Dear all,

As mentioned some time ago, Daniela Bevilacqua and I are organising a 
workshop at SOAS for November 2019 entitled 'Yoga and the Traditional 
Physical Practices of India: Influence, Entanglement and Confrontation' 
(CFP attached). The deadline for proposals is October 31st.

At this stage, we are particularly interested in papers on textual 
sources for physical practices. And we are also wondering if anyone on 
the list could point us to scholars who have worked specifically on a) 
acrobats in India (we're only aware of Lee Siegel et al's film on 
acrobats in Delhi), and b) Persian/Islamic physical disciplines?

Thanks and best wishes,

Mark




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From ms156 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Oct 17 12:03:33 2018
From: ms156 at soas.ac.uk (Mark Singleton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 18 14:03:33 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR02MB3285B9154D521D46787263FBECFD0@CY4PR02MB3285.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1505d5ab-caeb-0fe7-d2d0-c944a7ebe140@soas.ac.uk>

[Once again, on behalf of Matthew Clark:]

Greetings all, thanks for the responses. Addressing some of the points 
raised:

1. There are references in the RV (see my book) to "soma of the valleys, 
soma of the hills, soma of the rivers", etc., i.e. many somas. This is 
echoed not only in the Avesta but also in the materia medica of India. 
Soma was not one plant, it was many plants.

2. I think that the strongest argument against fly agaric is recent 
psychedelic history. Who eats or drinks fly-agaric in the West (or 
anywhere, apart from Siberia, corners of Afghanistan, and by the Objiway 
of North America)? Very few people do so (there are a few enthusiasts, 
of course: see my book). Many years ago I tried eating fly agaric: it 
was quite destabilizing. In over 40 years of global observation I have 
never come across a fly-agaric "movement". In contrast, as I mentioned, 
consider the enthusiasm for the classic tryptamines. This is not a 
"knock-out" argument, just a consideration of the weight of probabilities.

3. In soma rites, the concoction is usually consumed three times in a day.

4. The sound of vigorous pounding is amplified in the sound holes under 
the planks.

5. The soma rasa of the Vedas later becomes an internal amrita in yoga 
texts and elsewhere.

6. Although psychedelic plants are consumed occasionally in some tribal 
cultures of South Asia, I am not aware of any living psychedelic "cult" 
as such (any information on this point would be greatly appreciated). In 
my book I mention the living ayahuasca analogue cult run by Qalandar in 
Iran.

More soon, no doubt. Matthew Clark.








From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 12:34:23 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 18 18:04:23 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reminder: SOAS workshop on traditional physical practices in India
In-Reply-To: <cd35434d-d878-7a14-1dde-9ab96f3c5c38@soas.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYCW+coFAXy+5U7uKyDW2CnV_fn0Og=WZ2hjwpfu6OC2w@mail.gmail.com>

I included part of my work on Dommaras (the acrobat Telugu speaking caste )
and the north Indian migrant acrobats of Hyderabad (India) in my paper

https://www.academia.edu/8614533/_Performing_aside_the_Road_and_along_the_Road_Crowd_around_and_procession_performances_at_the_international_seminar_on_Popular_performance_and_social_Change_organized_by_the_ESRC_Project_on_Popular_performances_in_AP2000


On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:32 PM Mark Singleton via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> As mentioned some time ago, Daniela Bevilacqua and I are organising a
> workshop at SOAS for November 2019 entitled 'Yoga and the Traditional
> Physical Practices of India: Influence, Entanglement and Confrontation'
> (CFP attached). The deadline for proposals is October 31st.
>
> At this stage, we are particularly interested in papers on textual
> sources for physical practices. And we are also wondering if anyone on
> the list could point us to scholars who have worked specifically on a)
> acrobats in India (we're only aware of Lee Siegel et al's film on
> acrobats in Delhi), and b) Persian/Islamic physical disciplines?
>
> Thanks and best wishes,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Oct 17 14:18:24 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 18 07:18:24 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfQ57K0ystE6N2VNyutFU0_pYAOpaBRAbteRMfCMY3vzw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

?????????????? ?????: ????? ??? ???????: ?
??? ?????? ???? ????????????????? ???????
The rays of the Moon of Krishna, though cool, are very bright and they
constantly break up all the darkness in the world.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu  Wed Oct 17 21:00:49 2018
From: mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu (Mark McClish)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 18 21:00:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grant/Sabbatical Opportunity at NU
Message-ID: <20BE45CE-B8D6-4BDD-BB06-A32147069114@northwestern.edu>

Dear Colleagues,

I?ve received notice of a grant/sabbatical opportunity from a new research group here at Northwestern, the Center for Fundamental Physics. Part of their mission includes "interdisciplinary activities that reflect upon, illuminate and reveal the assumptions, implications and methods of fundamental physics.? To that end they are soliciting applications for ?an interdisciplinary visitor? (explicitly mentioning philosophy and theology) for stays beginning in 2019. I would quite selfishly love to see an Indologist in that role, whether coming from a philosophical, theological, or history of science perspective.

The initiative website is here: http://cfp.physics.northwestern.edu

A description of the opportunity and application guidelines are here: http://cfp.physics.northwestern.edu/interdisciplinary-grants.html

Applications are accepted through December 1, 2018.

All best,
Mark McClish
Northwestern University


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Thu Oct 18 08:05:38 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 18 10:05:38 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1539705605.25736.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <ab57c477-9cab-13bd-66dd-64c7d65317c4@wanadoo.fr>

@ Koenraad Elst

I'd like to propose you a lexical challenge about your beloved OIT.

As an aside, we might discuss the exact nature of your "work". Is it 
really a scientific discourse or is it a kind of parasitic commentary on 
scientific discourse? I don't know if here is the right place for that 
kind of epistemological debate. My opinion is that your discourse is 
mostly a shit-and-muck sprinkling system that parades behind the mask of 
a pseudo-historiographical narrative, and that tries to sell a reductio 
ad Nazismus of Indo-European studies. But I'll let that to rest, as it 
might have been already discussed here.

Apparently, you do not seem to list in your bibliography the review I 
made of Talageri's book about "the final evidence", after you sent me a 
copy 10 years ago. To be frank, I belong to the category you mention of 
people who had never heard of the OIT. To put it simple, the OIT is so 
insane that I had not even imagined it existed.

Insane though the OIT may seem, it's not so easy to refute on purely 
lexical grounds and during the 10 years since you sent me Talageri's 
book, I've been thinking about regular linguistic arguments about how to 
handle the issue of the PIE homeland.

People usually consider that if a family originates in some homeland 
somewhere, then sister-families of said family should be located in the 
whereabouts of said homeland. I think this principle is universally 
accepted.

So I will first provide a number of indications about sister-languages 
of PIE:

1. Basque contains words that have decidedly archaic PIE phonetics. For 
example, hartz "bear" which is strikingly similar to Hittite hartakka- 
(PIE *H2rt-k-). Another less well-known item is ulhe, ulle "wool" (PIE 
*wlH2-). These Basque words are all the more interesting as they contain 
laryngeals. There are quite a lot of such words, but not all with 
laryngeals.

It seems unlikely that these words can be directly borrowed from PIE. 
Rather they are probably borrowed from some sister-language of PIE that 
was farther west than PIE and could get in contact with Basque at some 
point in the prehistory of Basque.

2. The existence of sister-languages of PIE in (Western) Europe is shown 
by a number of words in IEan languages (like Germanic, Italic or Celtic) 
that look like cognates but have un-IEan vocalism. For example, the word 
*pat-, *paut- "paw", or the word *kaput- "head". These words can be 
compared with PIE *ped- "foot" and PIE *ghebh-el- "head, top". They are 
dialectal with a limited geographic distribution, and logically they 
cannot be inherited from PIE properly said.

These words (*pat-, *paut- "paw", *kaput- "head") are structurally 
isomorphic with PIE as to consonants, but the vocalism a/u is aberrant. 
In other words, they are cognates belonging to sister-languages of PIE.

3. Another set of words can be derived from PIE roots thanks to un-IEan 
morphology. An example of that situation is Greek maskhal? "armpit" 
which shares the root of Germanic *skl-dr- "shoulder" and an extra 
prefix m(a)-. The root in maskhal? is not *maskh- but *skhal-. This 
prefix m- is in fact more frequent than people have been aware so far. 
For example, *manu- "man" can be compared with PIE *H4n-er "man". Again, 
we can see that a word like *manu- has the same aberrant vocalism a/u as 
*pat-, *paut- "paw", and *kaput- "head". Another better-known prefix is a-.

In my opinion, these words (and there are plenty of others) are highly 
suggestive that PIE must have been originally located not too far from 
Europe, where sister-languages of PIE seem to have been spoken, before 
their ultimate replacement by IEan languages. Otherwise, it becomes 
impossible to understand how sister-languages of PIE can provide 
borrowings in Basque with archaic phonetics or substratic words that 
look like cognates of PIE regular words.

So my lexical challenge for you and your OIT comrades is as follows: 
Considering that the OIT claims that PIE was originally a neighbor of 
Dravidian, Munda or Tibeto-Burmese,

1. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or 
Tibeto-Burmese, that have archaic PIE phonetics (like Basque hartz)? 
Laryngeals are especially welcome.

2. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or 
Tibeto-Burmese, that look like borrowings from a sister-language of PIE 
(like pat, paut, kaput, etc)? That is to say isomorphic with PIE words 
but with aberrant vocalism.

3. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or 
Tibeto-Burmese, that can be explained as PIE roots with abnormal 
morphology (like the pair Greek maskhal? "armpit" vs Germanic *skl-dr- 
"shoulder")? Of course, several words are necessary to make an affix a 
reasonable hypothesis.

Looking forward to your proposals.

Best regards

Arnaud Fournet








Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit?:
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:21:47 +0200 (CEST)
> From:koenraad.elst at telenet.be
> To: Shyam Ranganathan<shyamr at yorku.ca>
> Cc: Indology<indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
> Message-ID:
> 	<1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Shyam, dear listfolk,
>
>
> " the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India"? That is the central thesis of Sheldon Pollock's paper Ex Oriente Nox, 1993, and this is my refutation:
>
> http://www.academia.edu/33837547/PurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx  
>
>
> On " the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory": India was treated as a kind of prehistory of Europe during the first decades after the official annunciation of Indo-European unity in 1786. And even before, vide passing remarks in that sense by Voltaire, Kant and Herder. Details available in my (in other respects already dated) paper:
>
> http://www.academia.edu/14458226/Why_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question  
>
> And in my book Asterisk in Bh?rop?yasth?n, of which the relevant chapters are available on-line:
>
> http://www.academia.edu/20084004/_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007  
>
> http://www.academia.edu/20084136/_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007  
>
> As for the swastika: if Hitler, who repeatedly expressed his contempt for India and Hinduism (as opposed to Islam: martial and natalistic and thus an example to follow), would never have chosen the Swastika if he had associated it with India. In his view, Indians received the benefit of the Swastika from the invading Aryans from Europe. He was a Philhellene (Grecophile) and the Swastika was a common motif in Greece and Troy. It also existed marginally in the European Middle Ages, and especially, even till today, in the Baltic states. There, in 1919-20, German WW1-returned soldiers formed the Freikorps militias to fight off Soviet aggression, and they brought it home. Many of these combative nationalists flocked to the budding NSDAP. Hitler vaguely knew that the Swastika was popular in Asia, but he attributed that to importation by the invading "Aryans". The Nazis and all other Europeans at that time located the Homeland somewhere in Europe. Most favoured at that time was the Pripyet swamps in Belorus, but Germany, Scandinavia, the Balkans and also already the Pontic steppes were other candidates, and Heinrich Himmler's research instititute Ahnenerbe even thought of Atlantis; but at any rate not India. Nor Tibet, where the SS sent an expedition but found that the Tibetans had the broadest skulls of all, whereas Aryans were supposed to be dolichocephalic.
>
> In 1920, Hitler even explicitly formulated the Aryan Invasion Theory (references in one of the above papers), complete with upper-castes as mongrelized immigrants from Europe. Interestingly, some Indian AIT champions have recently revived this view, on the primitive assumption that the linguistic Homeland question can be solved by genetics, the more advanced form of the physical anthropology so dear to the Nazis.
>
> As for "Aryan", of course the substance of the word came from Sanskrit, but a century before Nazism started. The attributed meaning was already a reinterpretation. It never had a racial meaning (in the physical-anthropological sense), though it had a relative-ethnic meaning: "fellow tribesman", "us". Hindu apologists will tell you that it only means "noble", but that is already a derived meaning. See:
>
> http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html  (please ignore the garbled chapter numeration)
>
> and (you might be surprised by the title, as I was when discovering this hypothesis):
>
> http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html  
>
> I have more stuff on this topic, all generated by debates with existing opposite viewpoints. There are many misconceptions and mystifications in this field (often deliberately kept alive for political reasons), yet you only need to read Hitler's brief but crystal-clear statements on Hindus and on Aryans to start pin-pricking them.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst, non-affiliated Orientalist



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From paolo.magnone at unicatt.it  Thu Oct 18 09:19:42 2018
From: paolo.magnone at unicatt.it (Magnone Paolo)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 18 09:19:42 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <ab57c477-9cab-13bd-66dd-64c7d65317c4@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <82c4ed0d-250d-d632-2018-d273dfca7e7a@unicatt.it>

Dear  List Members and especially Moderators,

(With no particular wish to side with Koenrad Elst or to participate in the dispute)

A few years back I was reprimanded and even invited to retract just for a jocular remark on someone else?s  ?American-like money-mindedness?. In the meantime the list policy must have changed a lot if it is now deemed fine for a list member to call in earnest a ?shit-and-muck sprinkling system? some other list member?s discourse. Or does it depend on academic status ? some list members may be freely offended, and some must not, even in a dream?

Paolo Magnone

--
Paolo Magnone
Sanskrit Language and Literature
Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
Introduction to Hinduism
Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan

Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net<http://www.jambudvipa.net>)
Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone


On 18/10/2018 10:05, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY wrote:

@ Koenraad Elst

I'd like to propose you a lexical challenge about your beloved OIT.

As an aside, we might discuss the exact nature of your "work". Is it really a scientific discourse or is it a kind of parasitic commentary on scientific discourse? I don't know if here is the right place for that kind of epistemological debate. My opinion is that your discourse is mostly a shit-and-muck sprinkling system that parades behind the mask of a pseudo-historiographical narrative, and that tries to sell a reductio ad Nazismus of Indo-European studies. But I'll let that to rest, as it might have been already discussed here.

Apparently, you do not seem to list in your bibliography the review I made of Talageri's book about "the final evidence", after you sent me a copy 10 years ago. To be frank, I belong to the category you mention of people who had never heard of the OIT. To put it simple, the OIT is so insane that I had not even imagined it existed.

Insane though the OIT may seem, it's not so easy to refute on purely lexical grounds and during the 10 years since you sent me Talageri's book, I've been thinking about regular linguistic arguments about how to handle the issue of the PIE homeland.

People usually consider that if a family originates in some homeland somewhere, then sister-families of said family should be located in the whereabouts of said homeland. I think this principle is universally accepted.

So I will first provide a number of indications about sister-languages of PIE:

1. Basque contains words that have decidedly archaic PIE phonetics. For example, hartz "bear" which is strikingly similar to Hittite hartakka- (PIE *H2rt-k-). Another less well-known item is ulhe, ulle "wool" (PIE *wlH2-). These Basque words are all the more interesting as they contain laryngeals. There are quite a lot of such words, but not all with laryngeals.

It seems unlikely that these words can be directly borrowed from PIE. Rather they are probably borrowed from some sister-language of PIE that was farther west than PIE and could get in contact with Basque at some point in the prehistory of Basque.

2. The existence of sister-languages of PIE in (Western) Europe is shown by a number of words in IEan languages (like Germanic, Italic or Celtic) that look like cognates but have un-IEan vocalism. For example, the word *pat-, *paut- "paw", or the word *kaput- "head". These words can be compared with PIE *ped- "foot" and PIE *ghebh-el- "head, top". They are dialectal with a limited geographic distribution, and logically they cannot be inherited from PIE properly said.

These words (*pat-, *paut- "paw", *kaput- "head") are structurally isomorphic with PIE as to consonants, but the vocalism a/u is aberrant. In other words, they are cognates belonging to sister-languages of PIE.

3. Another set of words can be derived from PIE roots thanks to un-IEan morphology. An example of that situation is Greek maskhal? "armpit" which shares the root of Germanic *skl-dr- "shoulder" and an extra prefix m(a)-. The root in maskhal? is not *maskh- but *skhal-. This prefix m- is in fact more frequent than people have been aware so far. For example, *manu- "man" can be compared with PIE *H4n-er "man". Again, we can see that a word like *manu- has the same aberrant vocalism a/u as *pat-, *paut- "paw", and *kaput- "head". Another better-known prefix is a-.

In my opinion, these words (and there are plenty of others) are highly suggestive that PIE must have been originally located not too far from Europe, where sister-languages of PIE seem to have been spoken, before their ultimate replacement by IEan languages. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to understand how sister-languages of PIE can provide borrowings in Basque with archaic phonetics or substratic words that look like cognates of PIE regular words.

So my lexical challenge for you and your OIT comrades is as follows: Considering that the OIT claims that PIE was originally a neighbor of Dravidian, Munda or Tibeto-Burmese,

1. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or Tibeto-Burmese, that have archaic PIE phonetics (like Basque hartz)? Laryngeals are especially welcome.

2. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or Tibeto-Burmese, that look like borrowings from a sister-language of PIE (like pat, paut, kaput, etc)? That is to say isomorphic with PIE words but with aberrant vocalism.

3. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or Tibeto-Burmese, that can be explained as PIE roots with abnormal morphology (like the pair Greek maskhal? "armpit" vs Germanic *skl-dr- "shoulder")? Of course, several words are necessary to make an affix a reasonable hypothesis.

Looking forward to your proposals.

Best regards

Arnaud Fournet







Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info> a ?crit :

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:21:47 +0200 (CEST)
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be<mailto:koenraad.elst at telenet.be>
To: Shyam Ranganathan <shyamr at yorku.ca><mailto:shyamr at yorku.ca>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
Message-ID:
        <1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be><mailto:1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Shyam, dear listfolk,


" the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India"? That is the central thesis of Sheldon Pollock's paper Ex Oriente Nox, 1993, and this is my refutation:

http://www.academia.edu/33837547/PurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F33837547%2FPurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=zQg47KY4ovUK8fC6DQCEFISJJnv2i1IhP2QuiH9L9Rk%3D&reserved=0>


On " the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory": India was treated as a kind of prehistory of Europe during the first decades after the official annunciation of Indo-European unity in 1786. And even before, vide passing remarks in that sense by Voltaire, Kant and Herder. Details available in my (in other respects already dated) paper:

http://www.academia.edu/14458226/Why_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F14458226%2FWhy_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=6XbO44p60CfD%2F8ZsW%2FSDLoPviAPsY3UYFI4nbRM%2BPEU%3D&reserved=0>

And in my book Asterisk in Bh?rop?yasth?n, of which the relevant chapters are available on-line:

http://www.academia.edu/20084004/_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F20084004%2F_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh%3Frop%3Fyasth%3Fn_Delhi_2007&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=ttAKgnynhAK%2FqXR4skqUntbjuTfIAU5Nfmg1%2BCWzYvQ%3D&reserved=0>

http://www.academia.edu/20084136/_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F20084136%2F_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh%3Frop%3Fyasth%3Fn_Delhi_2007&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=Cv953mstK1Su6ac3FMDZm398OtAzfQI4kvDB2yppY5I%3D&reserved=0>

As for the swastika: if Hitler, who repeatedly expressed his contempt for India and Hinduism (as opposed to Islam: martial and natalistic and thus an example to follow), would never have chosen the Swastika if he had associated it with India. In his view, Indians received the benefit of the Swastika from the invading Aryans from Europe. He was a Philhellene (Grecophile) and the Swastika was a common motif in Greece and Troy. It also existed marginally in the European Middle Ages, and especially, even till today, in the Baltic states. There, in 1919-20, German WW1-returned soldiers formed the Freikorps militias to fight off Soviet aggression, and they brought it home. Many of these combative nationalists flocked to the budding NSDAP. Hitler vaguely knew that the Swastika was popular in Asia, but he attributed that to importation by the invading "Aryans". The Nazis and all other Europeans at that time located the Homeland somewhere in Europe. Most favoured at that time was the Pripyet swamps in Belorus, but Germany, Scandinavia, the Balkans and also already the Pontic steppes were other candidates, and Heinrich Himmler's research instititute Ahnenerbe even thought of Atlantis; but at any rate not India. Nor Tibet, where the SS sent an expedition but found that the Tibetans had the broadest skulls of all, whereas Aryans were supposed to be dolichocephalic.

In 1920, Hitler even explicitly formulated the Aryan Invasion Theory (references in one of the above papers), complete with upper-castes as mongrelized immigrants from Europe. Interestingly, some Indian AIT champions have recently revived this view, on the primitive assumption that the linguistic Homeland question can be solved by genetics, the more advanced form of the physical anthropology so dear to the Nazis.

As for "Aryan", of course the substance of the word came from Sanskrit, but a century before Nazism started. The attributed meaning was already a reinterpretation. It never had a racial meaning (in the physical-anthropological sense), though it had a relative-ethnic meaning: "fellow tribesman", "us". Hindu apologists will tell you that it only means "noble", but that is already a derived meaning. See:

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkoenraadelst.blogspot.com%2F2015%2F03%2Fthe-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=SP0rDS4cq6ijDojfD1u4VPXMGv0xfviIkCqYj8839AI%3D&reserved=0> (please ignore the garbled chapter numeration)

and (you might be surprised by the title, as I was when discovering this hypothesis):

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkoenraadelst.blogspot.com%2F2017%2F04%2Fthe-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467969095437&sdata=y7IScve7QUgT2XR336%2FllKnOYO9TUtyL2bLnl5ziCyg%3D&reserved=0>

I have more stuff on this topic, all generated by debates with existing opposite viewpoints. There are many misconceptions and mystifications in this field (often deliberately kept alive for political reasons), yet you only need to read Hitler's brief but crystal-clear statements on Hindus and on Aryans to start pin-pricking them.

Hope this helps.


Dr. Koenraad Elst, non-affiliated Orientalist




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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Thu Oct 18 17:41:06 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 18 19:41:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 69, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1539878405.18595.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <06ab3277-506a-aa0e-864f-575dbe5469c3@wanadoo.fr>

I agree that the phrase "shit-and-muck sprinkling system" is somewhat rough.

But I'm quite fed up with the tendency to reductio ad Nazismus of 
Indo-European studies promoted by some people. I have the right to be 
offended by this "method".

So I consider the phrase adequately describes the discourse of these 
people. That's basically what their discourse is about. It's not a 
regular and acceptable scientific discourse.

If you reduce Indo-European studies to Hitler, racism and nazism, don't 
expect to get rose petals in exchange (at least not from me).

With best regards.

Arnaud Fournet


Le 18/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit?:
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:19:42 +0000
> From: Magnone Paolo<paolo.magnone at unicatt.it>
> To:"indology at list.indology.info"  <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
> Message-ID:<82c4ed0d-250d-d632-2018-d273dfca7e7a at unicatt.it>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear  List Members and especially Moderators,
>
> (With no particular wish to side with Koenrad Elst or to participate in the dispute)
>
> A few years back I was reprimanded and even invited to retract just for a jocular remark on someone else?s  ?American-like money-mindedness?. In the meantime the list policy must have changed a lot if it is now deemed fine for a list member to call in earnest a ?shit-and-muck sprinkling system? some other list member?s discourse. Or does it depend on academic status ? some list members may be freely offended, and some must not, even in a dream?
>
> Paolo Magnone
>
> --
> Paolo Magnone
> Sanskrit Language and Literature
> Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
> Introduction to Hinduism
> Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan
>
> Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net<http://www.jambudvipa.net>)
> Academia.edu:http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone



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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Thu Oct 18 22:56:35 2018
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 00:56:35 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <CAPEK=J-P1_fPGebgzLvWb6LeirH9GD-=CGH7ddPVL5n5KpUDSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <298149338.320321101.1539903395506.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>


Dear Arnaud, 
dear listfolk, 


So you'd like to propose [me] a lexical challenge about [my] beloved OIT. The OIT is not my "beloved"; this is a well-known rhetorical strategem to emotionalize and thus to belittle an opponent's viewpoint. The OIT is just a theory, but one that happens to tally better with the evidence. The day you have counter-evidence, I'll listen to it attentively, and more politely than is the custom in your circles. 

This is the kind of challenge I welcome, far preferable to the stonewalling that has so far characterized the stand taken by most AIT champions. Now at last we are going to compare notes. But being serious business, it will take time. 

One important element that is already being addressed, is the PIE exchange with Tibetan, viz. by a young scholar from St-Petersburg, Igor Tonoyan-Belyayev, another convert to the OIT. Thus, Tib. pyugs, "cow", is said to be related to PIE > Latin pecus, "cattle", rather than to Sanskrit paSu. Of course it has its limitations, PIE being at the least 3000 year older than the oldest attested Tibetan, and still some 1500 years before the oldest cognate Chinese. But then Carpelan & Parpola dare to reconstruct both the Uralic and PIE genesis on the basis of languages separated from PIE by 5000 years. So this is a serious job, but logical: obviously the location of a language can partly be deduced from which other language has exchanged with it and which have not. 


You complain about my not mentioning your review of Talageri's 2008 book. Well, it was not material to the topic, so I didn't refer to it, anymore than to the review by NS Rajaram, who was equally scolding and negative, but then from a Hindu angle. (One of the misconceptions among outsiders of the Hindu view of the Homeland debate is that present-day politicos support the "OIT". In fact they oppose the AIT but don't support any scenario focusing on IE outside India, whether as origin or as destination. Their horizon stops at the Khyber Pass and they think any outside focus dishonours Mother India.). Meanwhile on your part, have you ever mentioned Talageri's reply to your review? I attach it here, and its two sequels, also to give third parties a glimpse of what this debate is about. It contains, among much else, a lexical challenge, and come to think of it, in fully ten years, you've never answered it. OK, so we'll take ten years to answer, and before we do, you answer first. 

I have never applied the Reductio ad Hitlerum to Indo-European studies. The opposite counts for many in India, who do see the whole issue in modern political terms and demonize the discipline itself as intrinsically imperialist and racist. They are so busy attributing colonial conspiracies to Max M?ller that they never get around to studying what actually happened 5000 years ago. But it so happens that all you AIT champions are, on this, in the same camp as Hitler. From a scholarly angle, this is no big deal, as even Hitler can be right once in a while; that at least is what all AIT believers implicitly claim. 

I only mention it because AIT defenders invariably justify their stonewalling of Shrikant Talageri's or Michel Danino's work by alleging associations with politics, viz. with Hindu Nationalism. Well, if you really insist on bringing in politics, it is well worth reminding everyone that there never was a scholarly theory more abused for politics than precisely their own AIT. It was central in the ideological superstructure of British colonialism (but also played a role in the budding Freedom Movement, as proving a common origin with the Brits), it was the illustration par excellence of the Nazi worldview, and it is still used till today by several political movements in India, notably neo-Ambedkarism (though BR Ambedkar himself rejected the AIT, unlike Hindutva founder VD Savarkar), Dravidian chauvinism and, less well-known, also by a last hold-out of Brahmin supremacism. So if you don't like politics, you should stay away from the AIT. 

Or more constructively: if Indo-Europeanists were serious about the Homeland question (and during the still-recent controversy about Colin Renfrew's Anatolian Homeland theory, they were), they would resolutely study the OIT, starting with Danino's work on the Saraswati (not a "Hindutva concoction" but documented by Western scholars since the 1850s), some of Nicholas Kazanas' work on the Sanskrit roots, and esp. Talageri's work on the Vedic evidence for the "Aryan" emigration from India. For those who never heard about this yet: Talageri has also done interesting work on the linguistic aspect (do read his argument of a rare case of successful linguistic paleontology, viz. on the elephant), but his major claim to fame is the discovery that there actually exists literary evidence for the IE expansion. For those not willing to part with a penny for purchasing his books: much of his work is available on the net in the form of webinars and blogs. 

Good luck, 


Dr. Koenraad Elst 













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Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, [ mailto:indology-request at list.indology.info | indology-request at list.indology.info ] a ?crit : 

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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:21:47 +0200 (CEST)
From: [ mailto:koenraad.elst at telenet.be | koenraad.elst at telenet.be ] To: Shyam Ranganathan [ mailto:shyamr at yorku.ca | <shyamr at yorku.ca> ] Cc: Indology [ mailto:indology at list.indology.info | <indology at list.indology.info> ] Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
Message-ID: [ mailto:1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be | <1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be> ] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Shyam, dear listfolk, 


" the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India"? That is the central thesis of Sheldon Pollock's paper Ex Oriente Nox, 1993, and this is my refutation: [ http://www.academia.edu/33837547/PurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx | http://www.academia.edu/33837547/PurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx ] On " the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory": India was treated as a kind of prehistory of Europe during the first decades after the official annunciation of Indo-European unity in 1786. And even before, vide passing remarks in that sense by Voltaire, Kant and Herder. Details available in my (in other respects already dated) paper: [ http://www.academia.edu/14458226/Why_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question | http://www.academia.edu/14458226/Why_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question ] And in my book Asterisk in Bh?rop?yasth?n, of which the relevant chapters are available on-line: [ http://www.academia.edu/20084004/_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 | http://www.academia.edu/20084004/_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 ] [ http://www.academia.edu/20084136/_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 | http://www.academia.edu/20084136/_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 ] As for the swastika: if Hitler, who repeatedly expressed his contempt for India and Hinduism (as opposed to Islam: martial and natalistic and thus an example to follow), would never have chosen the Swastika if he had associated it with India. In his view, Indians received the benefit of the Swastika from the invading Aryans from Europe. He was a Philhellene (Grecophile) and the Swastika was a common motif in Greece and Troy. It also existed marginally in the European Middle Ages, and especially, even till today, in the Baltic states. There, in 1919-20, German WW1-returned soldiers formed the Freikorps militias to fight off Soviet aggression, and they brought it home. Many of these combative nationalists flocked to the budding NSDAP. Hitler vaguely knew that the Swastika was popular in Asia, but he attributed that to importation by the invading "Aryans". The Nazis and all other Europeans at that time located the Homeland somewhere in Europe. Most favoured at that time was the Pripyet swamps in Belorus, but Germany, Scandinavia, the Balkans and also already the Pontic steppes were other candidates, and Heinrich Himmler's research instititute Ahnenerbe even thought of Atlantis; but at any rate not India. Nor Tibet, where the SS sent an expedition but found that the Tibetans had the broadest skulls of all, whereas Aryans were supposed to be dolichocephalic. 

In 1920, Hitler even explicitly formulated the Aryan Invasion Theory (references in one of the above papers), complete with upper-castes as mongrelized immigrants from Europe. Interestingly, some Indian AIT champions have recently revived this view, on the primitive assumption that the linguistic Homeland question can be solved by genetics, the more advanced form of the physical anthropology so dear to the Nazis. 

As for "Aryan", of course the substance of the word came from Sanskrit, but a century before Nazism started. The attributed meaning was already a reinterpretation. It never had a racial meaning (in the physical-anthropological sense), though it had a relative-ethnic meaning: "fellow tribesman", "us". Hindu apologists will tell you that it only means "noble", but that is already a derived meaning. See: [ http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html | http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html ] (please ignore the garbled chapter numeration) 

and (you might be surprised by the title, as I was when discovering this hypothesis): [ http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html | http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html ] I have more stuff on this topic, all generated by debates with existing opposite viewpoints. There are many misconceptions and mystifications in this field (often deliberately kept alive for political reasons), yet you only need to read Hitler's brief but crystal-clear statements on Hindus and on Aryans to start pin-pricking them. 

Hope this helps. 


Dr. Koenraad Elst, non-affiliated Orientalist 

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From reimann at berkeley.edu  Fri Oct 19 00:15:20 2018
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 18 17:15:20 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <298149338.320321101.1539903395506.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <cd18680c-3b8e-1cf1-9bbd-899f4f0981f1@berkeley.edu>

Dear all,

Regarding the into India versus out of India conversation, I would 
suggest looking at the latest DNA study on the topic. It is the most 
recent and most comprehensive study to date, from this year. Here is a 
general article noting its conclusions:

https://qz.com/india/1243436/aryan-migration-scientists-use-dna-to-explain-origins-of-ancient-indians/

For the scientific study itself:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/31/292581.full.pdf

The following map from the article summarizes the main population 
movements found with the current data. The map also appears in:

Reich, David. 2018. /Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the 
New Science of the Human Past/. New York: Pantheon Books. Chapter six is 
about India. Reich, at Harvard, is maybe the leading scientist in this 
field.

The main thing for this discussion in the map is the Indian Cline, which 
shows a movement into India from Inner Asia between 2000 BCE and 1700 
BCE. Notice also how those who are here identified as the Yamnaya 
pastoralists migrated west into Europe, and east and south into South 
Asia. Genetics, of course, is not the same as language, but it is 
striking that the period from 2000 to 1700 BCE coincides perfectly with 
the dates that have been estimated for the arrival of the self-styled 
Aryas into South Asia.

The map has high resolution, so it can be amplified. Here it is:




Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann

UC, Berkeley



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From antonio.jardim at gmail.com  Fri Oct 19 03:21:50 2018
From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 13:21:50 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] South Asia Books in Colombus MO?
Message-ID: <CAGDOqfoVtQ2xmhTVxrf98XCd+fgXA1jjROtoytRxQGT8zOJH=A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Does anyone know the fate of South Asia Books - formerly in Columbus, Missouri?

I am trying to obtain a copy of one the volumes of the Opera Minora of
the Harvard Oriental Studies series solely distributed by South Asia
Books. ("Vedic Sakhas")

However the company seems to have gone belly up! The only remaining
presence seems to be on the truly awful Amazon Marketplace. This
doesn't help either as Amazon have geoblocked Australians from buying
on their site - because they refuse to pay goods & sales tax to the
Australian Government.

Does anyone have any hints? This distributor had sole distribution
rights for a number of Indology titles so it is quite a shame!

Kind regards,
Antonio Ferreira-Jardim
Brisbane, Australia





From alanus1216 at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 19 03:33:05 2018
From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 03:33:05 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] South Asia Books in Colombus MO?
In-Reply-To: <CAGDOqfoVtQ2xmhTVxrf98XCd+fgXA1jjROtoytRxQGT8zOJH=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1706170144.12539094.1539919985882@mail.yahoo.com>

I have no idea about South Asia Books, but you could ask Michael Witzel at Harvard about the series, since he is itsbeditor.
Allen

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  
 


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Fri Oct 19 07:54:49 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 09:54:49 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4175.1539908170.9722.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <ef6d1c66-3f96-c867-5cce-8bca3fecc8fe@wanadoo.fr>


@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
"The OIT is just a theory, but one that happens to tally better with the 
evidence. The day you have counter-evidence, I'll listen to it 
attentively, and more politely than is the custom in your circles. "

Of course, I disagree that the OIT tallies better with the evidence we 
have. But let's proceed.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
This is the kind of challenge I welcome, far preferable to the 
stonewalling that has so far characterized the stand taken by most AIT 
champions. Now at last we are going to compare notes. But being serious 
business, it will take time.

yes, I agree that you need some time to address such the fairly complex 
challenge I propose. I myself did not assemble the data listed in the 
previous post in just a day.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
One important element that is already being addressed, is the PIE 
exchange with Tibetan, viz. by a young scholar from St-Petersburg, Igor 
Tonoyan-Belyayev, another convert to the OIT. Thus, Tib. pyugs, "cow", 
is said to be related to PIE > Latin pecus, "cattle", rather than to 
Sanskrit paSu. Of course it has its limitations, PIE being at the least 
3000 year older than the oldest attested Tibetan, and still some 1500 
years before the oldest cognate Chinese. But then Carpelan & Parpola 
dare to reconstruct both the Uralic and PIE genesis on the basis of 
languages separated from PIE by 5000 years. So this is a serious job, 
but logical: obviously the location of a language can partly be deduced 
from which other language has exchanged with it and which have not.

I have read some papers by Igor Tonoyan-Belyayev. I would emit very 
serious reservations about his competences on Indo-European issues.
As for Tibetan, the word is indeed interesting, but the correct form is 
phyugs (not **pyugs) "cow", with aspirated ph. It's always a problem if 
people can't even cite data correctly.
The word looks Tocharian, though not listed in Adams' dictionary. 
Compare *Hekw- > yuk, *pekw- > (unattested) pyuk > Tibetan.
So it's not a surprise that Tibetan contains borrowings from the 
easternmost branch of PIE.
Chinese *myet "honey" < Tocharian does not support the OIT either.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
 > I have never applied the Reductio ad Hitlerum to Indo-European studies.

Good joke. It's all what your shit-and-muck sprinkling system is about. 
I quote one of your papers: "The AIT defenders are in the same camp as 
Adolf Hitler, the OIT is the opposite camp."
It's difficult to be clearer... If it's not a Reductio ad Hitlerum, I 
wonder what a Reductio ad Hitlerum amounts to.
Besides, you're entirely mistaken here, because what you call the OIT is 
clearly extracted from the same intellectual mold as Nazism. This mold 
is about contriving a mythical past that can be used to legitimize 
political, social and foremost territorial claims. Both Nazism and the 
OIT share the same obsession with autochthonicity, and they need a 
mythical past to support their claims.
So reality is crystal clear: the one who sides with Hitler is you, not 
me. I don't care about autochthonicity and both the Pontico-Caspian 
homeland or the Anatolian homeland are ok with me, though scientifically 
I prefer Anatolia and an early Neolithic dating for PIE breakup.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
The opposite counts for many in India, who do see the whole issue in 
modern political terms and demonize the discipline itself as 
intrinsically imperialist and racist. They are so busy attributing 
colonial conspiracies to Max M?ller that they never get around to 
studying what actually happened 5000 years ago. But it so happens that 
all you AIT champions are, on this, in the same camp as Hitler. From a 
scholarly angle, this is no big deal, as even Hitler can be right once 
in a while; that at least is what all AIT believers implicitly claim.

ok, so you repeat your erroneous claim. I could have not quoted one of 
your papers.
The OIT and Nazism share the same intellectual mold and obsession with 
autochthonicity and a mythical past.
Migrations being the cause of IEan expansions, both (1) the 
Pontico-Caspian homeland of late Neolithic dating or (2) the Anatolian 
homeland of early Neolithic dating are anti-autochthonist theories. As a 
consequence, contrary to your claim, they do not side with Hitler, but 
the OIT sides with Hitler. Same mold, same intrinsic logic.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
I only mention it because AIT defenders invariably justify their 
stonewalling of Shrikant Talageri's or Michel Danino's work by alleging 
associations with politics, viz. with Hindu Nationalism. Well, if you 
really insist on bringing in politics,

LOL. I appreciate your sense of humour.
I definitely object to bringing in politics... and making a mess of IEan 
studies.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
it is well worth reminding everyone that there never was a scholarly 
theory more abused for politics than precisely their own AIT. It was 
central in the ideological superstructure of British colonialism (but 
also played a role in the budding Freedom Movement, as proving a common 
origin with the Brits), it was the illustration par excellence of the 
Nazi worldview, and it is still used till today by several political 
movements in India, notably neo-Ambedkarism (though BR Ambedkar himself 
rejected the AIT, unlike Hindutva founder VD Savarkar), Dravidian 
chauvinism and, less well-known, also by a last hold-out of Brahmin 
supremacism. So if you don't like politics, you should stay away from 
the AIT.

Anyway, the "AIT" does not exist. It's a strawman.
What exists is (1) the Pontico-Caspian homeland of late Neolithic dating 
or (2) the Anatolian homeland of early Neolithic dating.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
Or more constructively: if Indo-Europeanists were serious about the 
Homeland question (and during the still-recent controversy about Colin 
Renfrew's Anatolian Homeland theory, they were), they would resolutely 
study the OIT, starting with Danino's work on the Saraswati (not a 
"Hindutva concoction" but documented by Western scholars since the 
1850s), some of Nicholas Kazanas' work on the Sanskrit roots, and esp. 
Talageri's work on the Vedic evidence for the "Aryan" emigration from 
India. For those who never heard about this yet: Talageri has also done 
interesting work on the linguistic aspect (do read his argument of a 
rare case of successful linguistic paleontology, viz. on the elephant), 
but his major claim to fame is the discovery that there actually exists 
literary evidence for the IE expansion. For those not willing to part 
with a penny for purchasing his books: much of his work is available on 
the net in the form of webinars and blogs.

Who would pay to read that stuff ??






From kiepue at t-online.de  Fri Oct 19 17:47:27 2018
From: kiepue at t-online.de (petra kieffer-puelz)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 19:47:27 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] ASC, AR 1894
Message-ID: <F653FF49-F19B-48EB-9142-00888A7A713F@t-online.de>

Dear All,

does anyone, by chance, have a scan or copy of the Archaeological Survey of Ceylon Annual Report 1894?
If so, I would be grateful for a scan.

With kind regards,
Petra Kieffer-P?lz






From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Fri Oct 19 22:24:21 2018
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 00:24:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
Message-ID: <1408945620.330728342.1539987861580.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>

Dear Luis, 
Dear listfolk, 


Thanks for pointing out Reich's paper to those who didn't know of it yet. Since I am not against any research being done, I don't mind Reich's study. But with some caveats: 

1/ Many genetic studies so far have been scientific enough in their strictly genetic conclusions. But once they come to conclusions on Homeland theories, they make a jump from their own findings to hearsay about the dominant opinion in Indo-Europeanist circles, or just among the Indian media. In the latter, Reich's study was front-page news, though it's only one among many, whereas Talageri's theory, a bolt from the blue, has been given the silent treatment. Similar but not as extreme is the attitude to genetic studies with different conclusions, such as on the finding that Ukrainian cattle have Indian cattle (who never would cross the Hindu Kush at their own initiative) in their ancestry. This debate is marred by an undeniable bias, easy to verify. Indeed, the double standards pointed out by Paolo Magnone on this very list are just another symptom. Apart from an explicit bias, there is also, and even more widespread, an implicit bias stemming from the fact that the AIT is simply the best known model, to most laymen of the Homeland debate even the only one. Researchers in other fields tailor their findings to what they "know" of the broader context. 

2/ Genetic studies cannot be a substitute for linguistic proof of a linguistic theory. This should not be too difficult to understand even for AIT champions, who themselves persistently ignore the position on the AIT by most Indian archaeologists, viz. its rejection. They plead that "pottery doesn't speak" and that the unfindability of material discontinuities that would have suggested immigration need not preclude the adoption of a foreign language, IE. Genes (like archaeologists' pottery) don't speak, people can and do change language, just as they can and regularly do adopt others' material culture. Thus, in the last 3000 years, India has been invaded by Shakas, Hunas, Greeks, Kushanas, Arabs, Turks, Afghans, Ethiopian slave soldiers, and Europeans, and received Syrian and Parsi refugees. They are still traceable genetically, so that 17% of genes in males seem to point to a foreign origin. So? The "AIT geneticists" would have you believe that this means a proportionate (or if we want to keep up the comparison with the Aryans, far more than proportionate) impact upon India's linguistic landscape. In reality, all these invaders have linguistically assimilated; not one group preserved (let alone imposed) its own language. That race, or nowadays "cline" etc., is separate from language ought to be clear from the IE family itself: either the browns came northwest and transmitted their language to the white natives, or the reverse, but the language undeniably crossed a racial frontier in either one direction or the other. To say, as some Indian papers have recently done, that "genetics has proven the AIT", demonstrates a fundamental ignorance about the whole issue, the same mistake made by skull-measurers a century ago when hunting for a "dolichocephalic syntax". 

3/ It is all very well to smash open doors and make publicity for a genetic study that has already made headlines and needed no further introduction to those actively interested in the Homeland debate. A greater need of the hour is to draw attention to work that has emphatically not been allowed any headlines, viz. the OIT. That the media have been very partisan in this debate is not so important, but a cause for wonder to future historians of this debate is the militant disinterest in the OIT maintained by most scholars in the field. The main reason for scholars in general is the impression that the Homeland question is quaint and pointless, which I can understand in terms of the present Zeitgeist. For scholars still interested in the Homeland question, stonewalling the OIT is, as I have had occasion to notice first-hand many times, the rumour that the OIT has something to do (not that anyone can pinpoint just what, but "something") with Hindu Nationalism. Even in one of his pro-OIT papers elaborating interactions between PIE and Tibetan, Igor Tonoyan-Belyayev hurries to distance himself from it. This Hindu Nationalism seems to have committed Poland invasions and Holocausts many times over, for it makes related theories untouchable even for people freely advocating a theory that also happened to be Hitler's, viz. the AIT. Elsewhere, not even the association with the Nazis could make Nazi-pioneered rocket science untouchable, for the Soviets and Americans lost no time in adopting it; but the Hindutva thing seems to be unfathomably worse. 

4/ Well, OK then, if this Hindu Nationalism is that demonic, I understand your shyness of the OIT, though contrary to the rumour you people go by, the OIT has only a tenuous relation to Hindu Nationalism, starting with the fact that it actually originated in 18th-century Europe. (Relevant details about the contemporary ideological scene in India on request.) Yet even then, I have just enough of the scholar in me to become curious. Here is a theory that, if found to be true, upsets the entire framework of Indology, starting with ancient India's chronology, the bedrock of any historiography. Any scholar of the field who really has the spirit, would want to find out the truth about that. So I appeal to the scholars on this list (and even to the conformists and socialites who only care about being in the dominant opinion-makers' good books, for dominant opinion can change) to just study the few statements of the OIT, and after gaining sufficient first-hand knowledge of it, to respond to it. And then let the chips fall where they may. If you can refute the OIT, alright, then we can move on. If you can't, you may have some rethinking to do, but that is part of our job, it's a normal part of scholarship. In the recent Anatolian Homeland debate, I have witnessed some conversions and reconversions, and at any rate a lot more arguments and churning than have been produced in the generous doses of scatologism thrown at the OIT. To sum up: in my humble opinion, the OIT is just not something you can keep on ignoring. 


Dr. Koenraad Elst 





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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Fri Oct 19 22:33:16 2018
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst at telenet.be)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 00:33:16 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <1539938832390.1970255569@boxbe>
Message-ID: <1798201629.330754664.1539988396139.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>

Dear listfolk, 



The linguistic evidence merits better than to be discussed in the middle of a less scholarly controversy, so I will leave that for another occasion and probably another platform. More important to Arnaud is clearly this statement of mine: 

> I have never applied the Reductio ad Hitlerum to Indo-European studies.> 

Which he calls 

>Good joke. It's all what your shit-and-muck sprinkling system is about.< 

Wow, there he says this dirty word again. At least it provides an answer to Paolo's question: yes, the list rules have changed, such colloquialisms are now an approved part of list's discourse, and the scholars on this list don't object to being associated with them. Well, since these unprovoked attacks on me are being allowed, I have a right to answer them. And no, this does not mean that I want or need the right to answer them in kind. 

Of course I should have realized that for some people, highlighting the historical fact of a Nazi association with their own AIT is unbearable. Still, I sign and persist, confident that the first-hand evidenceamply supports this position. But is highlighting a connection also a reduction to that connection? Is this a Reductio ad Hitlerum? Unlike Arnaud, I happen to have a record of actively *opposing* such discourse, which among Hindus is very common. There, in an effort at criminalizing the specific AIT, many polemicists undiscerningly demonize the entire discipline of Comparative & Historical Linguistics, and do indeed reduce it to colonial racism, which later was taken to its extreme by the Nazis. (Hints at a much-diluted similar reduction are also present in Western scholarship: Poliakov, Lincoln, Arvidsson?) But, while on the one hand opposing this grim over-interpretation of the historical fact of a later association with the Nazis, I do on the other hand acknowledge that same historical fact: yes, the AIT was taught in the Nazi-controlled schools, not just as an ephemeral detail but as a cornerstone of Nazi *Rassenkunde*, as theorized by Nazi race theorist Hans G?nther and summed up briefly by Hitler himself. 

The usual attitude in the West is to let sleeping dogs lie: not soil our discipline with an annoying consciousness of this historical association. That is alright, except that too many AIT defenders do bring in political associations themselves. Some of them even slander the OIT by falsely linking it to those same Nazis; one example of this you have just seen. Does that mean the Nazis located the Homeland in India? Of course not, and Arnaud avoids mentioning this obvious refutation of his own claim. So he brings in something else as a common element: "autochthonicity". A general objection here is elementary logic: this is a "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. Indeed, all AIT defenders except the remaining deliberate racists among them are defying this pamphleteering fallacy all the time: they don't feel themselves to be Nazi just because they defend a Nazi-approved theory. Specifically, it also happens to be factually wrong: the Nazi doctrine about the Homeland was not "autochthonicity". Neither Belarus nor Atlantis are in Germany. What mattered for them was only that the Homeland was not in the territory of an "inferior" or "mongrel" race, India. There is also a chronological problem: when the later Nazis were still WW1 frontline soldiers, the first arguments against the AIT were already being developed by Sri Aurobindo (partly in a paper called Arya), whose secretary KD Sethna was later, in old age, to write the book Karpasa (1982) that set in motion the OIT 2.0 (i.e. Indian version). 

And by the way, for me the reason is not "autochthonicity" either. Unlike for Indians, India is not my country. If I had a say in the matter, I would locate the Homeland right in my garden so I could open an Urheimat theme park. But history is not there to fulfil our wishes, and some historical facts just have to be accepted even if inconvenient. Historians take dispassionate note of such facts, not the shrill rhetoric we have just been treated to. Some facts, like the "association" of X with Y, need not be treated as important, but they should not be denied either. 

All the best, 


KE 



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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Sat Oct 20 00:08:15 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 02:08:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <1798201629.330754664.1539988396139.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <74dfd796-a91d-a5ae-f765-0cdb65eb11db@wanadoo.fr>


@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
The linguistic evidence merits better than to be discussed in the middle 
of a less scholarly controversy, so I will leave that for another 
occasion and probably another platform. More important to Arnaud is 
clearly this statement of mine:

Well, it's your own subjective selection in my whole post.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
I have never applied the Reductio ad Hitlerum to Indo-European studies.>
Which he calls
Good joke. It's all what your shit-and-muck sprinkling system is about.
Wow, there he says this dirty word again.

The dirty word adequately and aptly describes your dirty method and your 
dirty discourse.
I think that cats are cats, and should be called cats, for the sake of 
clarity.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
At least it provides an answer to Paolo's question: yes, the list rules 
have changed, such colloquialisms are now an approved part of list's 
discourse, and the scholars on this list don't object to being 
associated with them. Well, since these unprovoked attacks on me are 
being allowed, I have a right to answer them. And no, this does not mean 
that I want or need the right to answer them in kind.

More jokes. Don't try to victimize yourself.
Who can seriously believe that your shit-and-muck sprinkling system is 
"unprovoked attacks"??
I'm quite convinced most people on the list see clear in your tricks.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
Of course I should have realized that for some people, highlighting the 
historical fact of a Nazi association with their own AIT is unbearable. 
Still, I sign and persist, confident that the first-hand evidence amply 
supports this position. But is highlighting a connection also a 
reduction to that connection? Is this a Reductio ad Hitlerum? Unlike 
Arnaud, I happen to have a record of actively *opposing* such discourse, 
which among Hindus is very common.

Again, more jokes.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
There, in an effort at criminalizing the specific AIT, many polemicists 
undiscerningly demonize the entire discipline of Comparative & 
Historical Linguistics, and do indeed reduce it to colonial racism, 
which later was taken to its extreme by the Nazis.

I don't want to defend the Germans, but at the time Germany sank into 
Nazism in 1933, it had no colony left since 1918...
So the link between Nazism and colonial racism is definitely odd.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
(Hints at a much-diluted similar reduction are also present in Western 
scholarship: Poliakov, Lincoln, Arvidsson?)? But, while on the one hand 
opposing this grim over-interpretation of the historical fact of a later 
association with the Nazis, I do on the other hand acknowledge that same 
historical fact: yes, the AIT was taught in the Nazi-controlled schools, 
not just as an ephemeral detail but as a cornerstone of Nazi 
*Rassenkunde*, as theorized by Nazi race theorist Hans G?nther and 
summed up briefly by Hitler himself.

Be it true or not, this is irrelevant as regards the nature and status 
of Indo-European studies as a whole, throughout the world.
Again, it's odd that you seem to think that Nazism is the Greenwich 
Meridian of everything, when most people think Nazism is a complete 
failure that led Germany into the deepest abyss.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
 > The usual attitude in the West is to let sleeping dogs lie: not soil 
our discipline with an annoying consciousness of this historical 
association. That is alright, except that too many AIT defenders do 
bring in political associations themselves. Some of them even slander 
the OIT by falsely linking it to those same Nazis; one example of this 
you have just seen. Does that mean the Nazis located the Homeland in 
India? Of course not, and Arnaud avoids mentioning this obvious 
refutation of his own claim.

Apparently, you do not seem to have understood what I wrote.
I'll develop more on this below.

@ Koenrad Elst scripsit:
So he brings in something else as a common element: "autochthonicity". A 
general objection here is elementary logic: this is a "cum hoc ergo 
propter hoc" fallacy. Indeed, all AIT defenders except the remaining 
deliberate racists among them are defying this pamphleteering fallacy 
all the time: they don't feel themselves to be Nazi just because they 
defend a Nazi-approved theory. Specifically, it also happens to be 
factually wrong: the Nazi doctrine about the Homeland was not 
"autochthonicity". Neither Belarus nor Atlantis are in Germany. What 
mattered for them was only that the Homeland was not in the territory of 
an "inferior" or "mongrel" race, India. There is also a chronological 
problem: when the later Nazis were still WW1 frontline soldiers, the 
first arguments against the AIT were already being developed by Sri 
Aurobindo (partly in a paper called Arya), whose secretary KD Sethna was 
later, in old age, to write the book Karpasa (1982) that set in motion 
the OIT 2.0 (i.e. Indian version).
 >
 > And by the way, for me the reason is not "autochthonicity" either. 
Unlike for Indians, India is not my country. If I had a say in the 
matter, I would locate the Homeland right in my garden so I could open 
an Urheimat theme park. But history is not there to fulfil our wishes, 
and some historical facts just have to be accepted even if inconvenient. 
Historians take dispassionate note of such facts, not the shrill 
rhetoric we have just been treated to. Some facts, like the 
"association" of X with Y, need not be treated as important, but they 
should not be denied either.

Basically, I will summarize my opinion by stating that the OIT is not a 
scientific theory but rather a kind of politico-religious belief.
I would personally distinguish three types of politico-religious groups 
and beliefs: Traditionalism, Millennarism and Ancestralism.
Each of the types is focused either on Present, Future or Past, 
respectively.

Typically, Judaism and Pre-Vatican2 Catholicism belong to the 
Traditionalist tendency. The motto is "let's keep being what we are".
Protestantism rather belongs to Millennarism, especially American 
Protestantism. Communism is also a Millenarist thinking. The motto is 
"Let's break away from the Past, and Future will be an ocean of myrth 
and happiness".
Ancestralism is exemplified by Islamic Salafism, and their completely 
invented Islam of the Origins, which is nothing but 100% myth. The motto 
is "The mythical past is what we need now".

Nazism is a bit peculiar because it mixes Millennarist and Ancestralist 
features: the 1000-j?hriges Reich (in the future) and the mythical pure 
race (in the past). I suppose this mixture bears testimony to the severe 
cultural breakdown and collapse of Germany at that time.
Obviously the OIT is an politico-religious belief of the Ancestralist type.
That's why the OIT shares features with Nazism and Islamic Salafism: all 
of them sell a completely mythical past.

That's why I wrote that the OIT has more in common with Nazism than the 
usual theories about the PIE homeland.
So, yes, you Koenrad Elst and your OIT comrades have more in common with 
Nazism than what you believe.
Basically, you-all have the same intellectual mold as Nazism to a large 
extent. You're Ancestralists.

Besides, neither the Pontico-Caspian homeland nor the Anatolian homeland 
have anything to do with Traditionalism, Millennarism and Ancestralism.
Contrary to the OIT, they are scientific theories and they are not 
politico-religious beliefs.










From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Oct 20 01:56:42 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 21:56:42 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcw6h5zGt=dsriJfjXEg23u3OvY11F9EswV2RV=pYJ-4g@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

????????? ???????????? ???????? ?? ???? ?
?????: ????? ????????????????? ?????? ???????
O Krishna, your darkness is reflected in the mirror of the moon. It is not
a dirty spot on the moon. It is an ornament.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From reimann at berkeley.edu  Sat Oct 20 02:17:35 2018
From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 18 19:17:35 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <1408945620.330728342.1539987861580.JavaMail.zimbra@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <fec135c2-5d05-80c6-74d8-1e393b208c22@berkeley.edu>

Hi Koenrad,

Below you express your very personal opinion about genetic studies when 
you write:

"But once they come to conclusions on Homeland theories, they make a 
jump from their own findings to hearsay about the dominant opinion in 
Indo-Europeanist circles, or just among the Indian media."This is a 
rather serious accusation against geneticists such as Reich, when you 
affirm they rely on "hearsay" and on Indian media, instead of strict 
analysis.

In this case you are totally wrong. As I said, this study is the most 
comprehensive to date and the authors didn't consult any sanskritist or 
archeologist until after they had reached their conclusions on purely 
genetic grounds. Only then did they talk to specialists outside their 
field. The study cannot be brushed aside by dismissively calling it 
merely "...only one among many...," as if all studies carried the same 
weight. That already points to a prejudice on your part.

Then you go on about language not being necessarily equivalent to 
genetics. You could have saved yourselves many words, as I wrote that 
myself in my previous post.

In any event, this study doesn't pretend to be the last word on the 
matter, as this is a rapidly evolving field. But is is worthy of very 
serious consideration.

Talageri is a different matter that has nothing to do with genetics. So 
please don't try to draw a comparison to Talageri. Those are two 
different fields of study. Don't conflate them.

For anyone interested, here is the abstract of the paper:

Abstract.

The genetic formation of Central and South Asian populations has been 
unclear because of an absence of ancient DNA. To address this gap, we 
generated genome-wide data from ancient individuals, including the first 
from eastern Iran, Turan (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Tajikistan), 
Bronze Age Kazakhstan, and South Asia. Our data reveal a complex set of 
genetic sources that ultimately combined to form the ancestry of South 
Asians today. We document a southward spread of genetic ancestry from 
the Eurasian Steppe, correlating with the archaeologically known 
expansion of pastoralist sites from the Steppe to Turan in the Middle 
Bronze Age (2300-1500 BCE). These Steppe communities mixed genetically 
with peoples of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) whom 
they encountered in Turan (primarily descendants of earlier 
agriculturalists of Iran), but there is no evidence that the main BMAC 
population contributed genetically to later South Asians. Instead, 
Steppe communities integrated farther south throughout the 2nd 
millennium BCE, and we show that they mixed with a more southern 
population that we document at multiple sites as outlier individuals 
exhibiting a distinctive mixture of ancestry related to Iranian 
agriculturalists and South Asian hunter-gathers. We call this group 
Indus Periphery because they were found at sites in cultural contact 
with the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and along its northern fringe, 
and also because they were genetically similar to post-IVC groups in the 
Swat Valley of Pakistan. By co-analyzing ancient DNA and genomic data 
from diverse present-day South Asians, we show that Indus Periphery 
related people are the single most important source of ancestry in South 
Asia?consistent with the idea that the Indus Periphery individuals are 
providing us with the first direct look at the ancestry of peoples of 
the IVC?and we develop a model for the formation of present-day South 
Asians in terms of the temporally and geographically proximate sources 
of Indus Periphery related, Steppe, and local South Asian 
hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. Our results show how ancestry from the 
Steppe genetically linked Europe and South Asia in the Bronze Age, and 
identifies the populations that almost certainly were responsible for 
spreading Indo-European languages across much of Eurasia.

Luis



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From koenraad.elst at telenet.be  Sat Oct 20 03:45:24 2018
From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be (koenraad.elst)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 05:45:24 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
Message-ID: <20181020054525.pflQ1y00C3JhALi01flQeg@baptiste.telenet-ops.be>


Dear listfolk,?
The last two e-mails I received on this forum either answer points I never made, or make points I already answered to in my previous mails. Since the art of reading properly what an author has actually said is quite well-developed in the present circle, I need not go over these points again.
Thanks also for the more constructive feedback I received off-line.?
Kind regards,

Dr. Koenraad ELST?




Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
null


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 00:28:11 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 18:28:11 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <82c4ed0d-250d-d632-2018-d273dfca7e7a@unicatt.it>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcM2a3AiU36NNkWwuQJrT+Qes7HGLiFCLY8KwxJGmGZoA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Paolo,

There's no need to join in the general insulting spree by ironically
accusing the INDOLOGY management committee of "changing policy."  Irony is
not a good tool in public email communications.

If anybody on this list wishes to know the policies of the forum, they are
on the website <http://indology.info> for all to read.  The heading to
click is "netiquette <http://indology.info/email/email-rfc-1855/>".  You
will find they have not changed.

The INDOLOGY forum is not moderated, and never has been.  The behaviour of
members is up to them.  But the management committee does sometimes
intervene privately or publicly when it seems that people are getting rude
and the language is not settling down by itself after a couple of exchanges.

--

When I read Dr Fournet's post, I winced at the opening paragraphs, which
were unacceptably rude in such a public forum.  I do understand the
background to his comments, but really, one can't talk like that in a
public, academic environment.  It does nobody any credit and does not
advance the quest for knowledge.

I also noticed the inutility of this rhetorical choice.  Dr Fournet's post
contained precise information and compelling argumentation, and challenged
Dr Elst in an interesting way to engage in a meaningful academic
discussion.  However, because of the rude opening remarks, Dr Elst was
justifiably able to spend many paragraphs in a rejoinder to the insults,
without giving the kind of scholarly and precise response to the specific
issues that Dr Fournet had raised, namely ancient loanwords appearing in
OIA.

>From every point of view, it is always more charming, pleasant and also
utilitarian to maintain a polite tone in this forum.

Dominik Wujastyk
Member, INDOLOGY management committee.


On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 03:20, Magnone Paolo via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear  List Members and especially Moderators,
>
> (With no particular wish to side with Koenrad Elst or to participate in
> the dispute)
>
> A few years back I was reprimanded and even invited to retract just for a
> jocular remark on someone else?s  ?American-like money-mindedness?. In the
> meantime the list policy must have changed a lot if it is now deemed fine
> for a list member to call in earnest a ?shit-and-muck sprinkling system?
> some other list member?s discourse. Or does it depend on academic status ?
> some list members may be freely offended, and some must not, even in a
> dream?
>
> Paolo Magnone
>
> --
> Paolo Magnone
> Sanskrit Language and Literature
> Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
> Introduction to Hinduism
> Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan
>
> Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net)
> Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone
>
>
> On 18/10/2018 10:05, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> @ Koenraad Elst
>
> I'd like to propose you a lexical challenge about your beloved OIT.
>
> As an aside, we might discuss the exact nature of your "work". Is it
> really a scientific discourse or is it a kind of parasitic commentary on
> scientific discourse? I don't know if here is the right place for that kind
> of epistemological debate. My opinion is that your discourse is mostly a
> shit-and-muck sprinkling system that parades behind the mask of a
> pseudo-historiographical narrative, and that tries to sell a reductio ad
> Nazismus of Indo-European studies. But I'll let that to rest, as it might
> have been already discussed here.
>
> Apparently, you do not seem to list in your bibliography the review I made
> of Talageri's book about "the final evidence", after you sent me a copy 10
> years ago. To be frank, I belong to the category you mention of people who
> had never heard of the OIT. To put it simple, the OIT is so insane that I
> had not even imagined it existed.
>
> Insane though the OIT may seem, it's not so easy to refute on purely
> lexical grounds and during the 10 years since you sent me Talageri's book,
> I've been thinking about regular linguistic arguments about how to handle
> the issue of the PIE homeland.
>
> People usually consider that if a family originates in some homeland
> somewhere, then sister-families of said family should be located in the
> whereabouts of said homeland. I think this principle is universally
> accepted.
>
> So I will first provide a number of indications about sister-languages of
> PIE:
>
> 1. Basque contains words that have decidedly archaic PIE phonetics. For
> example, hartz "bear" which is strikingly similar to Hittite hartakka- (PIE
> *H2rt-k-). Another less well-known item is ulhe, ulle "wool" (PIE *wlH2-).
> These Basque words are all the more interesting as they contain laryngeals.
> There are quite a lot of such words, but not all with laryngeals.
>
> It seems unlikely that these words can be directly borrowed from PIE.
> Rather they are probably borrowed from some sister-language of PIE that was
> farther west than PIE and could get in contact with Basque at some point in
> the prehistory of Basque.
>
> 2. The existence of sister-languages of PIE in (Western) Europe is shown
> by a number of words in IEan languages (like Germanic, Italic or Celtic)
> that look like cognates but have un-IEan vocalism. For example, the word
> *pat-, *paut- "paw", or the word *kaput- "head". These words can be
> compared with PIE *ped- "foot" and PIE *ghebh-el- "head, top". They are
> dialectal with a limited geographic distribution, and logically they cannot
> be inherited from PIE properly said.
>
> These words (*pat-, *paut- "paw", *kaput- "head") are structurally
> isomorphic with PIE as to consonants, but the vocalism a/u is aberrant. In
> other words, they are cognates belonging to sister-languages of PIE.
>
> 3. Another set of words can be derived from PIE roots thanks to un-IEan
> morphology. An example of that situation is Greek maskhal? "armpit" which
> shares the root of Germanic *skl-dr- "shoulder" and an extra prefix m(a)-.
> The root in maskhal? is not *maskh- but *skhal-. This prefix m- is in fact
> more frequent than people have been aware so far. For example, *manu- "man"
> can be compared with PIE *H4n-er "man". Again, we can see that a word like
> *manu- has the same aberrant vocalism a/u as *pat-, *paut- "paw", and
> *kaput- "head". Another better-known prefix is a-.
>
> In my opinion, these words (and there are plenty of others) are highly
> suggestive that PIE must have been originally located not too far from
> Europe, where sister-languages of PIE seem to have been spoken, before
> their ultimate replacement by IEan languages. Otherwise, it becomes
> impossible to understand how sister-languages of PIE can provide borrowings
> in Basque with archaic phonetics or substratic words that look like
> cognates of PIE regular words.
>
> So my lexical challenge for you and your OIT comrades is as follows:
> Considering that the OIT claims that PIE was originally a neighbor of
> Dravidian, Munda or Tibeto-Burmese,
>
> 1. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or
> Tibeto-Burmese, that have archaic PIE phonetics (like Basque hartz)?
> Laryngeals are especially welcome.
>
> 2. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or
> Tibeto-Burmese, that look like borrowings from a sister-language of PIE
> (like pat, paut, kaput, etc)? That is to say isomorphic with PIE words but
> with aberrant vocalism.
>
> 3. Could you please provide a few words in Dravidian, Munda or
> Tibeto-Burmese, that can be explained as PIE roots with abnormal morphology
> (like the pair Greek maskhal? "armpit" vs Germanic *skl-dr- "shoulder")? Of
> course, several words are necessary to make an affix a reasonable
> hypothesis.
>
> Looking forward to your proposals.
>
> Best regards
>
> Arnaud Fournet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 16/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit :
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:21:47 +0200 (CEST)
> From: koenraad.elst at telenet.be
> To: Shyam Ranganathan <shyamr at yorku.ca> <shyamr at yorku.ca>
> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Nazi-ism, India,
> Message-ID:
> 	<1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be> <1870448034.285538446.1539631307453.JavaMail.zimbra at telenet.be>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Shyam, dear listfolk,
>
>
> " the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India"? That is the central thesis of Sheldon Pollock's paper Ex Oriente Nox, 1993, and this is my refutation:
> http://www.academia.edu/33837547/PurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F33837547%2FPurvaPaksha1607NaziIndology.docx&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=zQg47KY4ovUK8fC6DQCEFISJJnv2i1IhP2QuiH9L9Rk%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> On " the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory": India was treated as a kind of prehistory of Europe during the first decades after the official annunciation of Indo-European unity in 1786. And even before, vide passing remarks in that sense by Voltaire, Kant and Herder. Details available in my (in other respects already dated) paper:
> http://www.academia.edu/14458226/Why_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F14458226%2FWhy_Linguistics_necessarily_holds_the_key_to_the_solution_of_the_Indo-European_Homeland_question&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=6XbO44p60CfD%2F8ZsW%2FSDLoPviAPsY3UYFI4nbRM%2BPEU%3D&reserved=0>
>
> And in my book Asterisk in Bh?rop?yasth?n, of which the relevant chapters are available on-line:
> http://www.academia.edu/20084004/_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F20084004%2F_The_politics_of_the_Aryan_invasion_debate_ch._3_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh%3Frop%3Fyasth%3Fn_Delhi_2007&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=ttAKgnynhAK%2FqXR4skqUntbjuTfIAU5Nfmg1%2BCWzYvQ%3D&reserved=0>
> http://www.academia.edu/20084136/_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh?rop?yasth?n_Delhi_2007 <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F20084136%2F_Savarkar_Hinduness_and_the_Aryan_Homeland_ch._4_of_K._Elst_Asterisk_in_Bh%3Frop%3Fyasth%3Fn_Delhi_2007&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=Cv953mstK1Su6ac3FMDZm398OtAzfQI4kvDB2yppY5I%3D&reserved=0>
>
> As for the swastika: if Hitler, who repeatedly expressed his contempt for India and Hinduism (as opposed to Islam: martial and natalistic and thus an example to follow), would never have chosen the Swastika if he had associated it with India. In his view, Indians received the benefit of the Swastika from the invading Aryans from Europe. He was a Philhellene (Grecophile) and the Swastika was a common motif in Greece and Troy. It also existed marginally in the European Middle Ages, and especially, even till today, in the Baltic states. There, in 1919-20, German WW1-returned soldiers formed the Freikorps militias to fight off Soviet aggression, and they brought it home. Many of these combative nationalists flocked to the budding NSDAP. Hitler vaguely knew that the Swastika was popular in Asia, but he attributed that to importation by the invading "Aryans". The Nazis and all other Europeans at that time located the Homeland somewhere in Europe. Most favoured at that time was the Pripyet swamps in Belorus, but Germany, Scandinavia, the Balkans and also already the Pontic steppes were other candidates, and Heinrich Himmler's research instititute Ahnenerbe even thought of Atlantis; but at any rate not India. Nor Tibet, where the SS sent an expedition but found that the Tibetans had the broadest skulls of all, whereas Aryans were supposed to be dolichocephalic.
>
> In 1920, Hitler even explicitly formulated the Aryan Invasion Theory (references in one of the above papers), complete with upper-castes as mongrelized immigrants from Europe. Interestingly, some Indian AIT champions have recently revived this view, on the primitive assumption that the linguistic Homeland question can be solved by genetics, the more advanced form of the physical anthropology so dear to the Nazis.
>
> As for "Aryan", of course the substance of the word came from Sanskrit, but a century before Nazism started. The attributed meaning was already a reinterpretation. It never had a racial meaning (in the physical-anthropological sense), though it had a relative-ethnic meaning: "fellow tribesman", "us". Hindu apologists will tell you that it only means "noble", but that is already a derived meaning. See:
> http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkoenraadelst.blogspot.com%2F2015%2F03%2Fthe-indo-european-vedic-and-post-vedic.html&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467968939182&sdata=SP0rDS4cq6ijDojfD1u4VPXMGv0xfviIkCqYj8839AI%3D&reserved=0> (please ignore the garbled chapter numeration)
>
> and (you might be surprised by the title, as I was when discovering this hypothesis):
> http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html <https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkoenraadelst.blogspot.com%2F2017%2F04%2Fthe-chinese-self-designation-hua-and.html&data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467969095437&sdata=y7IScve7QUgT2XR336%2FllKnOYO9TUtyL2bLnl5ziCyg%3D&reserved=0>
>
> I have more stuff on this topic, all generated by debates with existing opposite viewpoints. There are many misconceptions and mystifications in this field (often deliberately kept alive for political reasons), yet you only need to read Hitler's brief but crystal-clear statements on Hindus and on Aryans to start pin-pricking them.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> Dr. Koenraad Elst, non-affiliated Orientalist
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cpaolo.magnone%40unicatt.it%7Cf582ed55a6654921fbbc08d634d09f13%7Cb94f7d7481ff44a9b5886682acc85779%7C0%7C0%7C636754467969095437&amp;sdata=NWrND7PUeRSKv0HhWKs2SCapCH0ZaF8X9XnwpUJ%2FbFQ%3D&amp;reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> *Destina il tuo 5 per mille all?Universit? Cattolica*
>
> *CF 02133120150 *www.unicatt.it/5permille
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 01:04:53 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 19:04:53 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
In-Reply-To: <fec135c2-5d05-80c6-74d8-1e393b208c22@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeDuuqa6z6pJsqU+PTPQg45PYS0KqGKRrGDY+PXs9dyTg@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to concur with Dr Gonzalez-Reimann about the recent book
publication by David Reich, *Who We Are and How We Got Here*.  I am reading
the book right now, and couldn't resist reading chapter six, "The Collision
that Formed India," first.  It's fascinating, as are the early chapters on
recent developments of research methodology in palaeo-genetics.  The
research of Reich and his collaborators in laboratories across the world
offers genuinely new evidence that directly affects the interpretation of
ancient South Asian history.  It's important.  And the evidence is
compelling.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 20:18, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hi Koenrad,
>
> Below you express your very personal opinion about genetic studies when
> you write:
>
> "But once they come to conclusions on Homeland theories, they make a jump
> from their own findings to hearsay about the dominant opinion in
> Indo-Europeanist circles, or just among the Indian media."This is a rather
> serious accusation against geneticists such as Reich, when you affirm they
> rely on "hearsay" and on Indian media, instead of strict analysis.
>
> In this case you are totally wrong. As I said, this study is the most
> comprehensive to date and the authors didn't consult any sanskritist or
> archeologist until after they had reached their conclusions on purely
> genetic grounds. Only then did they talk to specialists outside their
> field. The study cannot be brushed aside by dismissively calling it merely
> "...only one among many...," as if all studies carried the same weight.
> That already points to a prejudice on your part.
>
> Then you go on about language not being necessarily equivalent to
> genetics. You could have saved yourselves many words, as I wrote that
> myself in my previous post.
>
> In any event, this study doesn't pretend to be the last word on the
> matter, as this is a rapidly evolving field. But is is worthy of very
> serious consideration.
>
> Talageri is a different matter that has nothing to do with genetics. So
> please don't try to draw a comparison to Talageri. Those are two different
> fields of study. Don't conflate them.
>
> For anyone interested, here is the abstract of the paper:
> Abstract. The genetic formation of Central and South Asian populations
> has been unclear because of an absence of ancient DNA. To address this gap,
> we generated genome-wide data from ancient individuals, including the first
> from eastern Iran, Turan (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Tajikistan), Bronze
> Age Kazakhstan, and South Asia. Our data reveal a complex set of genetic
> sources that ultimately combined to form the ancestry of South Asians
> today. We document a southward spread of genetic ancestry from the Eurasian
> Steppe, correlating with the archaeologically known expansion of
> pastoralist sites from the Steppe to Turan in the Middle Bronze Age
> (2300-1500 BCE). These Steppe communities mixed genetically with peoples of
> the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) whom they encountered in
> Turan (primarily descendants of earlier agriculturalists of Iran), but
> there is no evidence that the main BMAC population contributed genetically
> to later South Asians. Instead, Steppe communities integrated farther south
> throughout the 2nd millennium BCE, and we show that they mixed with a more
> southern population that we document at multiple sites as outlier
> individuals exhibiting a distinctive mixture of ancestry related to Iranian
> agriculturalists and South Asian hunter-gathers. We call this group Indus
> Periphery because they were found at sites in cultural contact with the
> Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and along its northern fringe, and also
> because they were genetically similar to post-IVC groups in the Swat Valley
> of Pakistan. By co-analyzing ancient DNA and genomic data from diverse
> present-day South Asians, we show that Indus Periphery related people are
> the single most important source of ancestry in South Asia?consistent with
> the idea that the Indus Periphery individuals are providing us with the
> first direct look at the ancestry of peoples of the IVC?and we develop a
> model for the formation of present-day South Asians in terms of the
> temporally and geographically proximate sources of Indus Periphery related,
> Steppe, and local South Asian hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. Our results
> show how ancestry from the Steppe genetically linked Europe and South Asia
> in the Bronze Age, and identifies the populations that almost certainly
> were responsible for spreading Indo-European languages across much of
> Eurasia.
>
> Luis
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From ryugen.tanemura at nifty.com  Sun Oct 21 02:50:00 2018
From: ryugen.tanemura at nifty.com (Ryugen TANEMURA)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 11:50:00 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kickoff Symposium of Vihara Project
Message-ID: <71717fab-8415-75eb-02d9-f409ffa503fa@nifty.com>

Dear list members,

On behalf of Prof. Taiken Kyuma at Mie University, I am pleased to 
announce the kick-off symposium of his new project "Comprehensive 
Studies of Indian Buddhist Monasteries from the Gupta Period Onward 
(Vih?ra project)." Please see the pdf flyer attached to this email.

Dates: Nov . 2 (Fri.) ? 4 (Sun.), 2018
Venue: Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo, 
Main Conference Room (3rd Floor). URL: 
http://www.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/access/index.html
*Nov. 2: semi-closed; Nov. 3: semi-closed (morning) and open 
(afternoon); Nov.4: semi-closed

If you are interested in the semi-closed sessions on Nov. 2 and 4, 
please contact Prof. Kyuma (kyuma at human.mie-u.ac.jp).

Best regards,

Ryugen Tanemura
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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 04:21:42 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 22:21:42 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New research on dating Brhadaranyaka
In-Reply-To: <CAPnSTegJcNyksP1oyMHFGQchsXVy=zHO94_YmV_LBnT+bZqVKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeT-oLnOOjp8CzS9t37GV-oPL2axbTL8REzwK+Vw6Ph2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Do you mean newer than the learned introduction in Patrick Olivelle's
1998. *The
Early Upani?ads. Annotated Text and Translation*. New York, Oxford: Oxford
University Press?

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 13:03, Veeranarayana Pandurangi via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I would like to know about new/ or relatively new research on the dating
> of brihadaranyakopanisad. Thanks in advance for all.
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 04:29:01 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 18 22:29:01 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 69, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <06ab3277-506a-aa0e-864f-575dbe5469c3@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf=MSvVyn9QbYaxiA_oS8bBbhLE9ea8asz2PgN9Wn3k0A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dr Fournet,

You have every right to feel fed up with the tendencies you list.  You have
the right to be offended.  But you do not have the right to express your
feelings of annoyance in impolite terms in the INDOLOGY forum.  Nobody
does. At the time of joining this forum we each of us agreed that we had
read the terms of membership, and that includes the practice of standard
Netiquette.

Netiquette is not mere good manners.  It has evolved out of an intense
engagement with email discussion lists as a set of behaviours that maximize
useful conversation.  It is efficient, utilitarian.

I share your feelings about much of the discourse you refer to.  But I
promise you that insulting people with unpleasant language in front of 700
colleagues is not the best strategy for promoting the  scholarly methods
and discoveries that you value.

You are free to send your non-rose-petals to the people you describe.  But
please do it off-list.

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY managing committee.


On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 11:41, Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I agree that the phrase "shit-and-muck sprinkling system" is somewhat
> rough.
>
> But I'm quite fed up with the tendency to reductio ad Nazismus of
> Indo-European studies promoted by some people. I have the right to be
> offended by this "method".
>
> So I consider the phrase adequately describes the discourse of these
> people. That's basically what their discourse is about. It's not a regular
> and acceptable scientific discourse.
>
> If you reduce Indo-European studies to Hitler, racism and nazism, don't
> expect to get rose petals in exchange (at least not from me).
>
> With best regards.
>
> Arnaud Fournet
>
>
> Le 18/10/2018 ? 18:00, indology-request at list.indology.info a ?crit :
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:19:42 +0000
> From: Magnone Paolo <paolo.magnone at unicatt.it> <paolo.magnone at unicatt.it>
> To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Lexical challenge for the OIT
> Message-ID: <82c4ed0d-250d-d632-2018-d273dfca7e7a at unicatt.it> <82c4ed0d-250d-d632-2018-d273dfca7e7a at unicatt.it>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear  List Members and especially Moderators,
>
> (With no particular wish to side with Koenrad Elst or to participate in the dispute)
>
> A few years back I was reprimanded and even invited to retract just for a jocular remark on someone else?s  ?American-like money-mindedness?. In the meantime the list policy must have changed a lot if it is now deemed fine for a list member to call in earnest a ?shit-and-muck sprinkling system? some other list member?s discourse. Or does it depend on academic status ? some list members may be freely offended, and some must not, even in a dream?
>
> Paolo Magnone
>
> --
> Paolo Magnone
> Sanskrit Language and Literature
> Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
> Introduction to Hinduism
> Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan
>
> Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net<http://www.jambudvipa.net> <http://www.jambudvipa.net>)
> Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From veerankp at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 06:01:27 2018
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 11:31:27 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New research on dating Brhadaranyaka
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeT-oLnOOjp8CzS9t37GV-oPL2axbTL8REzwK+Vw6Ph2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnSTegez-keA3O6OfjiTP22N9+qv7Ha8Uf9gh7e5H2OtJ3DFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks sir, I have/seen This book mentioned by you.

What I mean is "which is accepted by (/siddhanta of)  all after rejecting
other views". I can't start from scratch again,  since research in West is
evergrowing.

 Or alternatively it may be other different views expressed later.

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 09:51 Dominik Wujastyk, <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Do you mean newer than the learned introduction in Patrick Olivelle's
> 1998. *The Early Upani?ads. Annotated Text and Translation*. New York,
> Oxford: Oxford University Press?
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> sas.ualberta.ca
>
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 13:03, Veeranarayana Pandurangi via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> I would like to know about new/ or relatively new research on the dating
>> of brihadaranyakopanisad. Thanks in advance for all.
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From ms156 at soas.ac.uk  Sun Oct 21 10:24:30 2018
From: ms156 at soas.ac.uk (Mark Singleton)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 12:24:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebpTEVFhQeLPCO8S3aS31M=OgZmUp+FcNZQ9DGS_p9ZWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37f826dc-14c2-2bbf-f582-5386c5657b85@soas.ac.uk>

[Once again, posting on behalf of Matthew Clark (who is still awaiting 
acceptance to the list):]


Greetings all, thanks for the responses. Addressing some of the points 
raised:

1. There are references in the RV (see my book) to "soma of the valleys, 
soma of the hills, soma of the rivers", etc., i.e. many somas. This is 
echoed not only in the Avesta but also in the materia medica of India. 
Soma was not one plant, it was many plants.

2. I think that the strongest argument against fly agaric is recent 
psychedelic history. Who eats or drinks fly-agaric in the West (or 
anywhere, apart from Siberia, corners of Afghanistan, and the Ojibway of 
North America)? Very few people do so (there are a few enthusiasts, of 
course: see my book). Many years ago I tried eating fly agaric: it was 
quite destabilizing. In over 40 years of global observation I have never 
come across a fly-agaric "movement". In contrast, as I mentioned, 
consider the enthusiasm for the classic tryptamines. This is not a 
"knock-out" argument, just a consideration of the weight of probabilities.

3. In soma rites, the concoction is usually consumed three times in a day.

4. The sound of vigorous pounding is amplified in the sound holes under 
the planks.

5. The soma rasa of the Vedas later becomes an internal amrita in yoga 
texts and elsewhere.

6. Although psychedelic plants are consumed occasionally in some tribal 
cultures of South Asia, I am not aware of any living psychedelic "cult" 
as such (any information on this point would be greatly appreciated). In 
my book I mention the living ayahuasca analogue cult run by Qalandar in 
Iran.

More soon, no doubt. Matthew Clark.




_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Oct 21 10:29:41 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 06:29:41 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdvGWBrN6aXJTU6Ug6SzGG0eNCN-0Ldd=ZV+WA1jK8AuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?
??????? ?? ??????? ??? ???????????? ???????
O Krishna, I get your friendship life after life. I delight in your sports.
What is the point of worrying about comings and goings?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 12:36:22 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 08:36:22 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Concerning the International Association of Sanskrit Studies
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO17dSbV-huQbHyewWrha0CRPfBnohk3Uf2yzGQFG6ETDEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO16tLHHyEy5q85fz71AEKxnjAAs08__Gry2JFtQweu3ACQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

Just a note that we will be accepting signatures until Wednesday, Oct. 24.
Please also feel free to share the letter with colleagues.

s?nunayam,

Andrew

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 4:57 AM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> A number of Sanskrit scholars plan to present the following letter to the
> International Association of Sanskrit Studies. We think it's important that
> everyone in the field of Sanskrit studies who is concerned about its future
> should have the opportunity to read it and add his or her voice. If you
> would like to add your name, send a message to iassletter at gmail.com (not
> to me, please). After a week or two, the list will be finalized and
> presented to the IASS.
>
> Andrew
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Current as of: October 11, 2018
>
> (to sign, send a message to *iassletter at gmail.com <iassletter at gmail.com>*)
>
>
> To the International Association of Sanskrit Studies:
>
>
> The extremely well-organized World Sanskrit Conference that recently took
> place at the University of British Columbia has given scholars of Sanskrit
> all over the world an opportunity to reflect on the state of our field?an
> opportunity that was, unfortunately, missed after the controversial events
> of the preceding World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok. According to its
> Statute <http://www.sanskritassociation.org/about-us.php>, the purpose of
> the International Association of Sanskrit Studies (IASS) is to ?to promote,
> diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
> of the world; to maintain contacts with the organising committee of the
> International Congresses of Asian and North African Studies; to organise
> international conferences of Sanskrit studies; to promote scholarly
> publication of Sanskrit-based studies; to establish and foster relations
> with national associations of Sanskrit studies.?
>
> We, the undersigned, believe that the IASS could do much more to ?promote,
> diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
> of the world.? Taking this mission statement seriously would involve
> expanding the range of activities of the IASS. More importantly, it would
> require the IASS to strenuously avoid any actions or remarks, on the part
> of its members and leadership, which can do serious harm to the goal of
> fostering Sanskrit Studies globally, and to distance itself, as a
> professional organization, from such actions or remarks as already have
> been made. The Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, a former
> institutional member of the IASS, has withdrawn
> <https://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/iass.html> its membership on precisely
> these grounds (see ZDMG 168.1 [2018], p. 253), and it is possible that
> other individual and institutional members will follow suit unless the IASS
> develops appropriate responses to the challenges currently facing its
> future.
>
> Specifically, we would like to see the IASS do the following:
>
>    -
>
>    Make all offices of the Board subject to regular election. Currently
>    the offices of General Secretary, Treasurer, and President are not subject
>    to a regular election. It is crucial that the members of the association
>    are able to elect the leadership of the association on a regular basis.
>    -
>
>    Call an election of the Board before the end of 2018. The members of
>    the IASS must have the opportunity to decide who will represent them as
>    office holders, and above all, as President of the Association.
>    -
>
>    Make it absolutely clear that the IASS is a scholarly organization,
>    and that membership in the organization, and participation in the World
>    Sanskrit Conference, requires a scholarly engagement with Sanskrit.
>    -
>
>    Sever any ties, official or unofficial, between the IASS and any
>    national governments.
>    -
>
>    Create connections between Sanskrit studies and other disciplines. The
>    study of Sanskrit has always had the potential for close connections to the
>    disciplines of history, philosophy, linguistics, philology, sociology,
>    anthropology, literary studies, religious studies, gender studies, and many
>    more. The IASS should forge connections between its members and the
>    professional organizations that represent those disciplines.
>    -
>
>    Form committees devoted to professional issues, publication, research,
>    diversity, and programming, which will produce reports on a regular basis
>    .
>    -
>
>    Originate guidelines for the conduct of future WSC meetings and other
>    IASS-sponsored activities that emphasise professionalism, neutrality, and
>    independence.
>
> It may be the case that these changes cannot be implemented without
> rewriting the Statute of the IASS. In that case, we request that the IASS
> will involve a diverse selection of scholars, drawn from outside the
> current Board and Consultative Committee, to assist in making the required
> changes, and that this process be as transparent as possible. We also
> sincerely request the IASS Board to respond to these suggestions in a
> timely manner and apprise the undersigned scholars what steps it will take
> and when. We consider these issues to be of utmost importance. We are
> concerned that if the IASS does not take appropriate steps as a matter of
> urgency, even more scholars will abandon the Association and its
> conferences, to the detriment of international Sanskrit studies.
>
> Signed [in alphabetical order],
>
>
> Yigal Bronner
>
> Jonardon Ganeri
>
> Mrinal Kaul
>
> Jim Mallinson
>
> Andrew Ollett
>
> Karin Preisendanz
>
> Ajay Rao
>
> Isabelle Ratie
>
> Martha Ann Selby
>
> David Shulman
>
> Gary Tubb
>
> Dominik Wujastyk
>


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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Sun Oct 21 17:49:46 2018
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 17:49:46 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic citations
Message-ID: <89E53329-CBF4-4170-A76E-050D784746B6@austin.utexas.edu>

Friends:

I am sure this is a problem we have all encountered. A presumably Vedic citation is given in a text, and it cannot be traced. But when such citations are given in such an ancient and authoritative text as ?abara?s commentary on the M?m??s? S?tras, however, they raise an issue. What do we make of such citations, which, I am sure, ?abara knew to be Vedic. Some of these can be traced, as Agrawal (M?m??s?-Uddhara?a-Ko?a) does, to extant texts such as the ?atapatha, but the wording is only approximate.

So we have
??????? ????????? ? ?????? ??? ??????? (?abara on PMS 3.4.20)
traced to ?Br 3.1.2.16 (Agrawal give 3.2.1.16, which is an error), but there we have: ??????? ?? ???????? (rest omitted).

I wonder whether anyone has thought about this. Thanks.

Patrick









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From bclough9377 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 18:23:22 2018
From: bclough9377 at gmail.com (Bradley Clough)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 12:23:22 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dating of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad
Message-ID: <CAMfk7BqYfEVucP8i0E8Mc+EJxLPPuvmg2RZ=mLUFd=j6F6YYXA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I would suggest consulting Signe Cohen?s edited volume (Routledge 2018)
titled *The Upanisads: A Complete Guide*.  Chapters 2-4, all by Cohen, and
Chapter 23, by Dermot Killingley, are particularly pertinent to this matter.

Brad Clough
The University of Montana


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From racleach at googlemail.com  Sun Oct 21 20:15:57 2018
From: racleach at googlemail.com (Robert Leach)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 21:15:57 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Satras in Assam
Message-ID: <CAAyw6C=A9+pVmJu=QfajLu3g3fX2ye9YXQSsOXUCjG+tKKK88Q@mail.gmail.com>

[please see below, posted on behalf of Jessie Pons]

--------------------


Dear list members,

A friend of mine would like to produce a photographic documentary on
Satras in Assam (Majuli Island) and is looking for scholarship on the
topic. He is particularly interested in the ordination system, the
monastic discipline and the social role that the monastery may play on
the island. This is not my area of expertise and I would be very
grateful to you if you could point me to any relevant bibliography on
the subject.

I thank you very much in advance for your kind help!

Best,
Jessie Pons


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Sun Oct 21 20:58:45 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 18 22:58:45 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Indology] Rules of the game
Message-ID: <0b4a6f15-516d-1a74-f5b4-d473be1cd54d@wanadoo.fr>

To all listees,
and especially,
to the team who owns the site and forum,

I think the current debate and issue is essential,
and here's why:

@ you wrote :
Dear Dr Fournet,
You have every right to feel fed up with the tendencies you list.  You have
the right to be offended.  But you do not have the right to express your
feelings of annoyance in impolite terms in the INDOLOGY forum.

well, Let's summarize the whole thing:

so I have the right to whatever, how nice!! how sweet sounding!!
but, concretely, the Hell cares,
so no matter how much s*t and m*k the sprinkling system sprinkles in my face, I just have to s*t up.
Because it's all about the rules (your rules).

So let's put it otherwise:

Pt1. you call it "Net-Etiquette"
Well, as a trueborn Frenchman, I really wonder why your rules bear a French-looking name "Etiquette".
I'm not far from thinking this is one more piece of abuse added to all the rest spit and spat in my face.
My piece of advice => find a non-French word for your rules. Thanks.
In all cases the French word "etiquette" has nothing to do with your rules, in nomine or in spiritu.

Pt2. You object to my phrase "s*t and m*k sprinkling system",
but apparently you don't object to other people's Reductio ad Nazismus.
I guess we really have a problem here, possibly of cultural or philosophical nature.

You seem to focus more on superficial features than on contents. It's possible that here, we have a deep cultural difference.
As a trueborn Frenchman, I tend to focus more on contents than on formalistic issues.
Among other things, that's why in rugby I believe that a SOB's kick in the testicles should be disapproved of, even if it's done Englishways ? la gentleman.
Of course, the Rugby International board thinks otherwise. If it looks ? la gentleman, then it's ok.
SOB's tricks are ok, if they respect surface "Etiquette". Well, I definitely disagree.
Contents matters more than form, in my world.

PT3. basically your "Etiquette", whatever that twisted pseudo-French word means, rejects my straightforward description but accepts Reductio ad Nazismus.
So let me reword what Koenrad Elst's "work" is about:
Basically, it's a Troyan horse: it looks like a pseudo-historiographical discourse, but the core of the beast is to sprinkle s*t and m*k on Indo-European Studies.

So, concretely, your "Etiquette", whatever that twisted pseudo-French word means,
1. does not promotes (academic) courtesy, it promotes hypocrisy and oblique abusive perversion,
2. puts historiography at risk of becoming the playground for hypocritical "s*t and m*k sprinkling systems".

I definitely believe that the historiography of sciences, and of linguistics in particular, deserves more than becoming the playground where a number of bastards can freely have fun with their "s*t and m*k sprinkling systems".

As a matter of fact, in France, we have one indigenous exemplar of a "s*t and m*k sprinkling system", namely Jean-Fran?ois Demoule, an archeologist who writes books on linguistics where he drools at heavy length on how much linguists are half-incompetent, half-nazi, etc.
As far as you are concerned, his "work" probably passes the test of your "Etiquette",
but as far as I am concerned, this individual only deserves the worst.

In all cases, I will not change my mind.

And I am ready to be banned,
because I prefer banning to dishonor.

And, as a last word, change your "Etiquette" for a word that makes sense.

Arnaud Fournet



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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Mon Oct 22 04:55:48 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 06:55:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Indology] Rules of the game
In-Reply-To: <0b4a6f15-516d-1a74-f5b4-d473be1cd54d@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFuEnjaT=+QoZn4aeU_ifH=ntW6DHBSZu934frToCp6pag@mail.gmail.com>

Wielce Szanowny Panie Arnoldzie (Arnaudzie does not sound properly Polish),

Nale?? - zgodnie z Pa?skim okre?leniem - do 'li?ciarzy' , czy 'listownik?w'
(listees) i dlatego pozwalam sobie na uwag? w j?zyku, w kt?rym ma sens
stare powiedzenie:

<<robi? z ig?y wid?y>>

As far as I am concerned this exchange of arguments re ad Hitlerum and
contra-ad Hitlerum is more than a bit dull. Quite boring, frankly speaking.
Threatening to become endless - and, finally, empty.

Robi Pan z ig?y wid?y.

There are much more important topics that need be laid on the indological
discussion table - such as the introduction of iron forging technologies
and its consequences in the sphere of cultural politics. Or - such as the
origins of untouchability.

Regards from suddenly coldish Warsaw -

Artur Karp (ret.)
Chair of South Asian Studies
University of Warsaw
Poland

2018-10-21 22:58 GMT+02:00 Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> To all listees,
> and especially,
> to the team who owns the site and forum,
>
> I think the current debate and issue is essential,
> and here's why:
>
> @ you wrote :
> Dear Dr Fournet,
> You have every right to feel fed up with the tendencies you list.  You have
> the right to be offended.  But you do not have the right to express your
> feelings of annoyance in impolite terms in the INDOLOGY forum.
>
> well, Let's summarize the whole thing:
>
> so I have the right to whatever, how nice!! how sweet sounding!!
> but, concretely, the Hell cares,
> so no matter how much s*t and m*k the sprinkling system sprinkles in my face, I just have to s*t up.
> Because it's all about the rules (your rules).
>
> So let's put it otherwise:
>
> Pt1. you call it "Net-Etiquette"
> Well, as a trueborn Frenchman, I really wonder why your rules bear a French-looking name "Etiquette".
> I'm not far from thinking this is one more piece of abuse added to all the rest spit and spat in my face.
> My piece of advice => find a non-French word for your rules. Thanks.
> In all cases the French word "etiquette" has nothing to do with your rules, in nomine or in spiritu.
>
> Pt2. You object to my phrase "s*t and m*k sprinkling system",
> but apparently you don't object to other people's Reductio ad Nazismus.
> I guess we really have a problem here, possibly of cultural or philosophical nature.
>
> You seem to focus more on superficial features than on contents. It's possible that here, we have a deep cultural difference.
> As a trueborn Frenchman, I tend to focus more on contents than on formalistic issues.
> Among other things, that's why in rugby I believe that a SOB's kick in the testicles should be disapproved of, even if it's done Englishways ? la gentleman.
> Of course, the Rugby International board thinks otherwise. If it looks ? la gentleman, then it's ok.
> SOB's tricks are ok, if they respect surface "Etiquette". Well, I definitely disagree.
> Contents matters more than form, in my world.
>
> PT3. basically your "Etiquette", whatever that twisted pseudo-French word means, rejects my straightforward description but accepts Reductio ad Nazismus.
> So let me reword what Koenrad Elst's "work" is about:
> Basically, it's a Troyan horse: it looks like a pseudo-historiographical discourse, but the core of the beast is to sprinkle s*t and m*k on Indo-European Studies.
>
> So, concretely, your "Etiquette", whatever that twisted pseudo-French word means,
> 1. does not promotes (academic) courtesy, it promotes hypocrisy and oblique abusive perversion,
> 2. puts historiography at risk of becoming the playground for hypocritical "s*t and m*k sprinkling systems".
>
> I definitely believe that the historiography of sciences, and of linguistics in particular, deserves more than becoming the playground where a number of bastards can freely have fun with their "s*t and m*k sprinkling systems".
>
> As a matter of fact, in France, we have one indigenous exemplar of a "s*t and m*k sprinkling system", namely Jean-Fran?ois Demoule, an archeologist who writes books on linguistics where he drools at heavy length on how much linguists are half-incompetent, half-nazi, etc.
> As far as you are concerned, his "work" probably passes the test of your "Etiquette",
> but as far as I am concerned, this individual only deserves the worst.
>
> In all cases, I will not change my mind.
>
> And I am ready to be banned,
> because I prefer banning to dishonor.
>
> And, as a last word, change your "Etiquette" for a word that makes sense.
>
> Arnaud Fournet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr  Mon Oct 22 08:57:36 2018
From: fournet.arnaud at wanadoo.fr (Arnaud Fournet)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 10:57:36 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Indology] Rules of the game
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFuEnjaT=+QoZn4aeU_ifH=ntW6DHBSZu934frToCp6pag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f156216e-d7cd-ec4f-81e0-37c148e0431b@wanadoo.fr>

Nie m?wi? po polsku, ale translate.google mo?e pom?c.

Wygl?da na to, ?e uwa?asz, ?e Reductio ad Nazismus jest do przyj?cia,
Nie zgadzam si? i wydaje si?, ?e nie chcesz zrozumie?.

Wygl?da na to, ?e nie ma kompromisu mi?dzy naszymi dwoma punktami widzenia.


Le 22/10/2018 ? 06:55, Artur Karp a ?crit?:
> Wielce Szanowny Panie Arnoldzie (Arnaudzie does not sound properly 
> Polish),
>
> Nale?? - zgodnie z Pa?skim okre?leniem - do 'li?ciarzy' , czy 
> 'listownik?w' (listees) i dlatego pozwalam sobie na uwag? w j?zyku, w 
> kt?rym ma sens stare powiedzenie:
>
> <<robi? z ig?y wid?y>>
>
> As far as I am concerned this exchange of arguments re ad Hitlerum and 
> contra-ad Hitlerum is more than a bit dull. Quite boring, frankly 
> speaking. Threatening to become endless - and, finally, empty.
>
> Robi Pan z ig?y wid?y.
>
> There are much more important topics that need be laid on the 
> indological discussion table - such as the introduction of iron 
> forging technologies and its consequences in the sphere of cultural 
> politics. Or - such as the origins of untouchability.
>
> Regards from suddenly coldish Warsaw -
>
> Artur Karp (ret.)
> Chair of South Asian Studies
> University of Warsaw
> Poland
>
> 2018-10-21 22:58 GMT+02:00 Arnaud Fournet via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
>
>     To all listees,
>     and especially,
>     to the team who owns the site and forum,
>
>     I think the current debate and issue is essential,
>     and here's why:
>
>     @ you wrote :
>     Dear Dr Fournet,
>     You have every right to feel fed up with the tendencies you list.  You have
>     the right to be offended.  But you do not have the right to express your
>     feelings of annoyance in impolite terms in the INDOLOGY forum.
>
>     well, Let's summarize the whole thing:
>
>     so I have the right to whatever, how nice!! how sweet sounding!!
>     but, concretely, the Hell cares,
>     so no matter how much s*t and m*k the sprinkling system sprinkles in my face, I just have to s*t up.
>     Because it's all about the rules (your rules).
>
>     So let's put it otherwise:
>
>     Pt1. you call it "Net-Etiquette"
>     Well, as a trueborn Frenchman, I really wonder why your rules bear a French-looking name "Etiquette".
>     I'm not far from thinking this is one more piece of abuse added to all the rest spit and spat in my face.
>     My piece of advice => find a non-French word for your rules. Thanks.
>     In all cases the French word "etiquette" has nothing to do with your rules, in nomine or in spiritu.
>
>     Pt2. You object to my phrase "s*t and m*k sprinkling system",
>     but apparently you don't object to other people's Reductio ad Nazismus.
>     I guess we really have a problem here, possibly of cultural or philosophical nature.
>
>     You seem to focus more on superficial features than on contents. It's possible that here, we have a deep cultural difference.
>     As a trueborn Frenchman, I tend to focus more on contents than on formalistic issues.
>     Among other things, that's why in rugby I believe that a SOB's kick in the testicles should be disapproved of, even if it's done Englishways ? la gentleman.
>     Of course, the Rugby International board thinks otherwise. If it looks ? la gentleman, then it's ok.
>     SOB's tricks are ok, if they respect surface "Etiquette". Well, I definitely disagree.
>     Contents matters more than form, in my world.
>
>     PT3. basically your "Etiquette", whatever that twisted pseudo-French word means, rejects my straightforward description but accepts Reductio ad Nazismus.
>     So let me reword what Koenrad Elst's "work" is about:
>     Basically, it's a Troyan horse: it looks like a pseudo-historiographical discourse, but the core of the beast is to sprinkle s*t and m*k on Indo-European Studies.
>
>     So, concretely, your "Etiquette", whatever that twisted pseudo-French word means,
>     1. does not promotes (academic) courtesy, it promotes hypocrisy and oblique abusive perversion,
>     2. puts historiography at risk of becoming the playground for hypocritical "s*t and m*k sprinkling systems".
>
>     I definitely believe that the historiography of sciences, and of linguistics in particular, deserves more than becoming the playground where a number of bastards can freely have fun with their "s*t and m*k sprinkling systems".
>
>     As a matter of fact, in France, we have one indigenous exemplar of a "s*t and m*k sprinkling system", namely Jean-Fran?ois Demoule, an archeologist who writes books on linguistics where he drools at heavy length on how much linguists are half-incompetent, half-nazi, etc.
>     As far as you are concerned, his "work" probably passes the test of your "Etiquette",
>     but as far as I am concerned, this individual only deserves the worst.
>
>     In all cases, I will not change my mind.
>
>     And I am ready to be banned,
>     because I prefer banning to dishonor.
>
>     And, as a last word, change your "Etiquette" for a word that makes sense.
>
>     Arnaud Fournet
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>



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From elisa.freschi at gmail.com  Mon Oct 22 10:44:25 2018
From: elisa.freschi at gmail.com (Elisa Freschi)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 12:44:25 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic citations
In-Reply-To: <89E53329-CBF4-4170-A76E-050D784746B6@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEYKMaeAT6C0w5xf+ObHAcGqrLFzvo5WSgNto42_VrpMPY2_jQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patrick,

perhaps you got already enough replies, but just in case: The problem of
"inaccurate" Vedic quotations in the ?Bh was acknowledged already by Garge
in his *Citations in ?abara-Bh**??**ya (A Study) *(1952). My sense is that
a scholar could reuse freely whatever belonged to their school, whereas one
had to be more cautious about quoting from another school. And one's
Veda??kh? was probably felt as "own" as one's own philosophical school. I
discussed this in my Introduction to the 2015 issue of the Journal of
Indian Philosophy on textual reuse.

Hope this helps! Please keep me updated if you continue working on the
topic.

Best,

elisa

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:50, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Friends:
>
> I am sure this is a problem we have all encountered. A presumably Vedic
> citation is given in a text, and it cannot be traced. But when such
> citations are given in such an ancient and authoritative text as ?abara?s
> commentary on the M?m??s? S?tras, however, they raise an issue. What do we
> make of such citations, which, I am sure, ?abara knew to be Vedic. Some of
> these can be traced, as Agrawal (M?m??s?-Uddhara?a-Ko?a) does, to extant
> texts such as the ?atapatha, but the wording is only approximate.
>
> So we have
> ??????? ????????? ? ?????? ??? ??????? (?abara on PMS 3.4.20)
> traced to ?Br 3.1.2.16 (Agrawal give 3.2.1.16, which is an error), but
> there we have: ??????? ?? ???????? (rest omitted).
>
> I wonder whether anyone has thought about this. Thanks.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Dr. Elisa Freschi

(Tue to Thu)
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Hollandstra?e 11-13, 2nd floor
1020 Vienna, Austria
Phone ++43 (0)1 51581 6433
Fax ++43 (0)1 51581 6410


(Fri to Tue)
Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
University of Vienna
Spitalgasse 2, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
1090 Vienna, Austria
Phone ++43 (0)1 4277 43505

http://elisafreschi.com
http://oeaw.academia.edu/elisafreschi


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Oct 22 12:21:57 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 12:21:57 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] question
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B829FE@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members,
I am looking for the following article:
Kesavan Veluthat, The Sannathi Inscriptions and the Questions they Raise. It is published in the Proceedings of the Indian History Congress. Golden Jubilee Session 1999. Calicut 2000, pp. 1081-6.
A pdf would be most helpful, or else information about the availability of these proceedings somewhere on the internet.
Best wishes, Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Oct 22 12:54:52 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 08:54:52 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzedFdqGjMr=KG=Hidbpy6oRF40-YvaV6qdnheDTK3MaBw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

??? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?
???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????????????? ???????
O Krishna, If I can be the sandal wood for your feet, my entire life will
be worthwhile. I do not desire anything else.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Oct 22 14:04:35 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 10:04:35 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyBteSBLcmlzaG5hIHZlcnNlcw==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzedFdqGjMr=KG=Hidbpy6oRF40-YvaV6qdnheDTK3MaBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfFqvJaKnp7rWO4htY4j7odRWQSg85AoAjk_MnvXZ9hGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the corrected version:
????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?
???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????????????? ???????

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:55 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Continuing my Krishna verses
>
> ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?
> ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????????????? ???????
> O Krishna, If I can be the sandal wood for your feet, my entire life will
> be worthwhile. I do not desire anything else.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


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From harzer at utexas.edu  Mon Oct 22 15:43:50 2018
From: harzer at utexas.edu (Edeltraud Harzer)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 10:43:50 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] question
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B829FE@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <7D369624-3CDA-4760-B622-E988D0CE214C@utexas.edu>

Herman,
this article is available on JSTOR, can be read free of charge:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44144181?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents <https://www.jstor.org/stable/44144181?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents>

Edeltraud Harzer


> On Oct 22, 2018, at 7:21 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear list members,
> I am looking for the following article:
> Kesavan Veluthat, The Sannathi Inscriptions and the Questions they Raise. It is published in the Proceedings of the Indian History Congress. Golden Jubilee Session 1999. Calicut 2000, pp. 1081-6.
> A pdf would be most helpful, or else information about the availability of these proceedings somewhere on the internet.
> Best wishes, Herman
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>_______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon Oct 22 16:28:47 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 16:28:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] question
In-Reply-To: <7D369624-3CDA-4760-B622-E988D0CE214C@utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B82A6D@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Edeltraud. Thank you very much for the link. Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Edeltraud Harzer [harzer at utexas.edu]
Verzonden: maandag 22 oktober 2018 17:43
Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.
CC: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] question

Herman,
this article is available on JSTOR, can be read free of charge:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44144181?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Edeltraud Harzer


On Oct 22, 2018, at 7:21 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear list members,
I am looking for the following article:
Kesavan Veluthat, The Sannathi Inscriptions and the Questions they Raise. It is published in the Proceedings of the Indian History Congress. Golden Jubilee Session 1999. Calicut 2000, pp. 1081-6.
A pdf would be most helpful, or else information about the availability of these proceedings somewhere on the internet.
Best wishes, Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Oct 22 18:12:03 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 12:12:03 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grant/Sabbatical Opportunity at NU
In-Reply-To: <20BE45CE-B8D6-4BDD-BB06-A32147069114@northwestern.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdeSskOtaUusjETWcX1wwiOFu7vdTpaupDJa2rDTgfbnw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark, shall I post this announcement to the "announcements
<https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/hssa/index.php/hssa/announcement>"
page of the HSSA journal?  You might reach a cross-section of people there
spanning physics and indology.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 15:01, Mark McClish via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I?ve received notice of a grant/sabbatical opportunity from a new research
> group here at Northwestern, the Center for Fundamental Physics. Part of
> their mission includes "interdisciplinary activities that reflect upon,
> illuminate and reveal the assumptions, implications and methods of
> fundamental physics.? To that end they are soliciting applications for ?an
> interdisciplinary visitor? (explicitly mentioning philosophy and theology)
> for stays beginning in 2019. I would quite selfishly love to see an
> Indologist in that role, whether coming from a philosophical, theological,
> or history of science perspective.
>
> The initiative website is here: http://cfp.physics.northwestern.edu
>
> A description of the opportunity and application guidelines are here:
> http://cfp.physics.northwestern.edu/interdisciplinary-grants.html
>
> Applications are accepted through December 1, 2018.
>
> All best,
> Mark McClish
> Northwestern University
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From martingansten at gmail.com  Mon Oct 22 18:30:30 2018
From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 18 20:30:30 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Middle Persian help needed
Message-ID: <79d47011-e20c-7c45-cb7a-008209f694c5@gmail.com>

This may be a slightly odd request for Indology-L, but I have a somewhat 
technical question relating to Middle Persian/Pahlavi, and don't know 
any specialists in the area. If there should be any on the list willing 
to help, I'd be grateful to hear from you (I suppose off-list would be 
best, as the question isn't really related to India or Indology).

Thanks in advance,
Martin Gansten






From mahabongo at gmail.com  Tue Oct 23 01:53:51 2018
From: mahabongo at gmail.com (Matthew Clark)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 18 07:23:51 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Re:  Soma and Amanita muscaria
In-Reply-To: <CAPhjsAfgENq69HcUHh2oHwzJmgHfO_o9dRhXLjTTtJLwQUU45g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhjsAc1Uav=aPmeLC-w7siy05e6cC_vRVHZ1FHiZjzqgggXGg@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings, I am not sure if my last reply was posted or not. Just in case
it wasn't, here are a few points in reply to previous questions. Best,
Matthew Clark.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Matthew Clark <mahabongo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 08:46
Subject: Re: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
To: Mark Singleton <ms156 at soas.ac.uk>


Greetings all, thanks for the responses. Addressing some of the points
raised:

1. There are references in the RV (see my book) to "soma of the valleys,
soma of the hills, soma of the rivers", etc., i.e. many somas. This is
echoed not only in the Avesta but also in the materia medica of India. Soma
was not one plant, it was many plants.

2. I think that the strongest argument against fly agaric is recent
psychedelic history. Who eats or drinks fly-agaric in the West (or
anywhere, apart from Siberia, corners of Afghanistan, and by the Objiway of
North America)? Very few people do so (there are a few enthusiasts, of
course: see my book). Many years ago I tried eating fly agaric: it was
quite destabilizing. In over 40 years of global observation I have never
come across a fly-agaric "movement". In contrast, as I mentioned, consider
the enthusiasm for the classic tryptamines. This is not a "knock-out"
argument, just a consideration of the weight of probabilities.

3. In soma rites, the concoction is usually consumed three times in a day.

4. The sound of vigorous pounding is amplified in the sound holes under the
planks.

5. The soma rasa of the Vedas later becomes an internal amrita in yoga
texts and elsewhere.

6. Although psychedelic plants are consumed occasionally in some tribal
cultures of South Asia, I am not aware of any living psychedelic "cult" as
such (any information on this point would be greatly appreciated). In my
book I mention the living ayahuasca analogue cult run by Qalandar in Iran.

More soon, no doubt. Matthew Clark.


On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 23:51 Mark Singleton <ms156 at soas.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:59:31 +0530
> From: Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> <indology at list.indology.info>
> Reply-To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> To: Michael Slouber <Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu> <Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu>
> CC: Indology <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info>
>
> In Bhagavadgita, we have
>
> ???????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ? ??-???
>
> This usage of the word Soma indicates that at least by the time of
> composition of Gita, Soma has been viewed as the Rasa that provides the
> common quality to all the (medicinal) plants.
>
> Even if this usage is viewed as the result of a semantic change from the
> Vedic usage, there has to be a common semantic connection between the two
> usages that lead to this semantic change.
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Michael Slouber via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Just a note that is it certainly untrue that South Asia lacks living
>> traditions involving consumption of psychedelic plants; shamans in Nepal,
>> for example, have a rich and diverse tradition of using dozens of such
>> plants.  On this, see the following excellent and heavily photo-documented
>> book:  *Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas* by Claudia Mu?ller-Ebeling;
>> Christian Ra?tsch, 2002.
>>
>> Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
>> Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
>> Dept. of Liberal Studies
>> Western Washington University
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>


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From anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de  Tue Oct 23 07:13:56 2018
From: anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de (Anna Aurelia Esposito)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 18 09:13:56 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Reminder:_November_1st_deadline_for_applications_for_Kannada_courses_at_W=C3=BCrzburg?=
Message-ID: <20181023091356.Horde.AsedA8uBjt4nDvANcgkYnIC@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de>

Dear Colleagues,

we invite applications for two intensive courses on Kannada, both  
conducted by Prof. B.A. Viveka Rai at the Chair of Indology, W?rzburg  
University:

"Kannada as a Classical Language",
January 14th until 18th 2019
In this course, besides the classical literary genre Champu, Shatpadi  
poetry will be introduced. Selected major texts of classical Kannada,  
viz. Janna's Yashodhara Charite (chapters 3 and 4) and Raghavanka's  
Harishchandra Kavya (chapters 12 and 13) will be read and studied.  
Participants are expected to possess knowledge of fundamental grammar  
and the Kannada script before attending the course.

"Modern Kannada ? Conversation",
January 21st until 25th 2019
The course is intended for students with basic knowledge of Kannada  
grammar. The focus will be on the developing of speaking abilities.  
Furthermore, the use of contextual vocabulary and grammatical  
structures will be deepened and consolidated. Participants are  
expected to possess knowledge of basic vocabulary, fundamental grammar  
and the Kannada script before attending the course.

!!! Applications for participation should reach us by November 1st !!!

The fee is 150 Euro per course (including teaching materials). A  
reduction for students and unemployed is possible upon request (write  
to anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de). For more information, please check  
the course website:

http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/studium-und-lehre/summer-schools/kannada-school-2019/

For any questions and for registration please write to Anna Aurelia  
Esposito (anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de).

We would be grateful if you could widely circulate this call for applications.

Best regards,
Anna Aurelia Esposito

**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universit?t W?rzburg
Lehrstuhl f?r Indologie / S?dasienkunde
Philosophiegeb?ude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 W?rzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
Bachgasse 3
97070 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3042293
**********
http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito
**********
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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Oct 23 21:15:27 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 18 15:15:27 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] technical remark (was Soma and Amanita muscaria)
In-Reply-To: <CAPhjsAc1Uav=aPmeLC-w7siy05e6cC_vRVHZ1FHiZjzqgggXGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce=BBMUUny--P6Sxqorc9y2wocgTu6oyB5afHB1VYAKkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 19:54, Matthew Clark via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Greetings, I am not sure if my last reply was posted or not. Just in case
> it wasn't, here are a few points in reply to previous questions. Best,
> Matthew Clark.
>
>
Welcome, Matthew!

For Matthew and for everyone, it's easy to see whether your post has gone
out to the INDOLOGY members or not.  On the indology.info website there's a
link saying that the archive back to 1990 can be browsed
<http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/>.  If you
click that, and click "date" in the top line (the most recent month), you
can look at the most recent posts to the lists.  Any new post is added to
this archive within a few seconds.

It often happens that one is not sure that one hit the right button or that
a post went out correctly to the forum.  This is how you can check for
yourself.

Best,
Dominik
INDOLOGY committee member.


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed Oct 24 07:07:58 2018
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 18 07:07:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Fellowships and Grants in Buddhist Studies
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR22MB016137DCA620421F2793333DB3F50@BN6PR22MB0161.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <DF540338-8C8C-4457-BEEF-1EB630D5886F@uclouvain.be>



D?but du message r?exp?di? :

De: Katie Smith <ksmith at ACLS.org<mailto:ksmith at ACLS.org>>
Objet: Fellowships and Grants in Buddhist Studies
Date: 23 octobre 2018 ? 18:53:21 UTC+2
?: Katie Smith <ksmith at ACLS.org<mailto:ksmith at ACLS.org>>

Greetings from ACLS in New York!

You may have already seen the below call for applications for the 2018-19 Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Program in Buddhist Studies competition. I?m writing to ask you to please share it with your networks and spread the word! A flyer for this year?s competition is attached. Thank you!

Best wishes,
Katie Smith

______________
Katie Smith
Coordinator of International Programs
American Council of Learned Societies
633 Third Avenue
New York, NY 10017
T: (212) 697-1505 x135
F: (212) 949-8058





[http://mailings.acls.org/getmedia/64bc9821-227a-426f-947f-71a7cfafb947/email_header.aspx?width=580&height=83]<http://www.acls.org/>


The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Program in Buddhist Studies








The American Council of Learned Societies (ACLS) invites applications in the 2018-19 competition year of The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Program in Buddhist Studies. In cooperation with the Foundation, ACLS offers an integrated set of fellowship and grant competitions supporting work that will expand the understanding and interpretation of Buddhist thought in scholarship and society, strengthen international networks of Buddhist studies, and increase the visibility of innovative currents in those studies.

  *   Dissertation Fellowships<http://www.acls.org/programs/buddhist-studies/>: one-year stipends to PhD candidates for full-time preparation of dissertations

  *   Postdoctoral Fellowships<http://www.acls.org/programs/buddhist-studies/>: two-year stipends to recent recipients of the PhD for residence at a university for research, writing, and teaching

  *   Research Fellowships<http://www.acls.org/programs/buddhist-studies/>: one-year stipends for scholars who hold a PhD degree, with no restrictions on time from the PhD

  *   Grants for Critical Editions and Scholarly Translations<http://www.acls.org/programs/buddhist-studies/>: one-year stipends for collaborative or individual projects focused on the creation of critical editions, translation of canonical texts, and translation of scholarly works

  *   New Professorships<http://www.acls.org/programs/buddhist-studies/>: multi-year grants to colleges and universities to establish or expand teaching in Buddhist studies

These are global competitions. There are no restrictions as to the location of work proposed, the citizenship of applicants, or the languages of the final written product. Applications must be submitted in English. Program information and applications are available at www.acls.org/programs/buddhist-studies/<http://ac-ibis.net/NLI/LE35.ashx?a=B638BF032891C3744776F95F976B9D540475D63BF553611180B9F376411315B9&b=F03408A300AE9FC32245A50AA5DB22CA>.<http://ac-ibis.net/NLI/LE35.ashx?a=B638BF032891C3744776F95F976B9D5464B9F87B439E7AA4634E26BECED9606A&b=F03408A300AE9FC32245A50AA5DB22CA>

Deadline for submission of fellowship applications: November 14, 2018.
Deadline for institutional applications for New Professorships: January 9, 2019.

For more information, please email BuddhistStudies at acls.org<mailto:BuddhistStudies at acls.org>.

Program in Buddhist Studies on Facebook<http://ac-ibis.net/NLI/LE35.ashx?a=B638BF032891C3744776F95F976B9D54B1BFCE3CCDF40D6F8DB31CCF68604A6E&b=F03408A300AE9FC32245A50AA5DB22CA>.

________________________________

The American Council of Learned Societies, a private, nonprofit federation of 75 national scholarly organizations, is the preeminent representative of American scholarship in the humanities and related social sciences. Advancing scholarship by awarding fellowships and strengthening relations among learned societies is central to ACLS?s work. In the 2017-18 competition year, ACLS funded about 350 fellows and scholars through grant programs, supporting humanistic work at over 100 US institutions of higher education and scores more outside the United States. More than $24 million was awarded across all programs.

Established in 2005, The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation is a private philanthropic organisation based in Hong Kong.The Foundation?s dual mission is to foster appreciation of Chinese arts and culture to advance global learning and to cultivate deeper understanding of Buddhism in the context of contemporary life.

The Foundation's Buddhist studies and Buddhist art programmes include the Buddhist Ministry Initiative at Harvard Divinity School; a centre and an professorship in Buddhist studies at Stanford University; a centre for Buddhist studies at the University of Toronto; a chair and programme in Buddhism and Contemporary Society at the University of British Columbia; a multi-year lecture series at SOAS University of London; the Centre for Buddhist Art and Conservation and MA programme at The Courtauld Institute of Art; the Galleries of Buddhist Art at the Victoria and Albert Museum; a three-year exhibition, Encountering the Buddha: Art and Practice Across Asia, that opened in the Sackler Gallery in Washington in October 2017, as well as other art exhibitions and related projects around the world.www.rhfamilyfoundation.org<http://www.rhfamilyfoundation.org/>.









AMERICAN COUNCIL OF LEARNED SOCIETIES
633 THIRD AVENUE, NEW YORK, NY 10017-6795
TELEPHONE: 212-697-1505<tel:212-697-1505>


CONNECT WITH ACLS<http://www.acls.org/connect/>
WWW.ACLS.ORG<http://www.acls.org/>









???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From shenyiming.bas at gmail.com  Wed Oct 24 08:54:21 2018
From: shenyiming.bas at gmail.com (Yiming)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 18 10:54:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Coffee Break Conference Oxford - flyer attached and reminder about the CfP
Message-ID: <CAHKdJ06uUonr6k9Tmhjq-MTatnJz7qaHeOoU_4xj7gJ1eZt=_w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,


We are happy to announce that the 9th Coffee Break Conference, with the
theme "Science and Technology in Premodern Asia", will be hosted at Wolfson
College, University of Oxford, on 4-6 December 2018.



We attach herewith a flyer of the conference, and would like to remind that
the ongoing CfP will end on 31 Oct.



We will be more than happy to answer any questions in the following email
address: yiming.shen at wolfson.ox.ac.uk



Looking forward to hearing from / seeing you,

Yiming


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Oct 24 20:58:47 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 18 22:58:47 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoD4op5EXuOa=PM8pzOUVTZF4crmMzvnhOBDWB-HPQfRzg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,
According to the Vedic Index of A.A. Macdonell and A.B. Keith, vol. I p.
479, "polyandry is not Vedic" (with obligatory references to extremely
sporadic exceptions such as in the RV "wedding hymn"). Then in the
Mahabharata there is suddenly the major character of Draupadii/Krsnaa
marrying all five Pandava brothers. I am aware of the two volumes of Alf
Hiltebeitel which are an excellent ethnographic study of the Draupadii cult
in South India. However, what are currently the most important philological
studies of the background of this character and of polyandry itself in late
Vedic, post Vedic and epic/Puranic texts? Apart from purely/mainly
structuralist approaches (Biardeau), I would be interested in explorations
of whether the problematic presence of polyandry in the Mahabharata and
elsewhere may imply a reference to contemporaneous (Mahabharata time)
practices (just as the reference to Nagas burnt in the Khandava forest was
taken as more than just an element needed in the narrative: it would also
have been a reference to forest tribes and conflicting modes of resource
use acc. to Irawati Karve and to Gadgil & Guha).
With best regards,
Jan Houben
-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Oct 25 02:11:21 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 18 22:11:21 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfNw84rG+gEev7r-KgU3FuE6CLa7nuLE0-F-ZWkiuzcKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

????????????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?
????? ????? ??? ??????????????????????? ???????
O Krishna, You are the wish-fulfilling tree growing in the courtyard of my
mind. Once I have attained you, O Lord, nothing else remains to be attained.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk  Thu Oct 25 11:51:15 2018
From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 18 11:51:15 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoD4op5EXuOa=PM8pzOUVTZF4crmMzvnhOBDWB-HPQfRzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR02MB321216B5257DE9DA9574B6058CF70@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Professor Houben,

In this connection there is a book by Sarva Daman Singh entitled Polyandry in Ancient India (Motilal Banarsidass, 1978). There are also some enthological comments on the last few pages of A. N. Jani?s paper (?Socio-Moral Implications of Draupadi?s Marriage to Five Husbands?) in Bimal Krishna Matilal, ed., Moral Dilemmas in the Mahabharata (Indian Institute of Advanced Study / Motilal Banarsidass, 1989).


After the Pandavas have already decided they will all marry Draupadi, the link from this particular polyandric marriage to other such marriages is apparently made by Yudhishthira, in amongst a battery of other explanations for it, when he addresses Drupada at Mbh 1.187.28cd: pUrveSAm AnupUrvyeNa yAtaM vartmAnuyAmahe (?We follow one after the other the path that was travelled by the Ancient?, trans. van Buitenen). In context this is a general comment on what one can do given the subtlety of dharma: the previous line reads sUkSmo dharmo mahArAja nAsya vidmo vayaM gatim (?The law is subtle, great king, and we do not know its course?). But the comment can be taken to imply polyandric precedents. Drupada seems to deny that there are precedents (or at least respectable ones) when he says to Vyasa: na cApy AcaritaH pUrvair ayaM dharmo mahAtmabhiH (?Nor has this Law been practiced by the Ancient of great spirits?, Mbh 1.188.8ab). But Yudhishthira then gives the example (zrUyate hi purANe 'pi) of Jatila Gautami who ?lay with the Seven Seers? (Mbh 1.188.14). Jatila as Draupadi?s precursor in this regard is mentioned also by the women of Hastinapura at Mbh 12.39.5. But this precursor is evidently in the realm of distant mythology, not the realm of contemporaneous practice.

Simon Brodbeck
Cardiff University


From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
Sent: 24 October 2018 21:59
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry

Dear All,
According to the Vedic Index of A.A. Macdonell and A.B. Keith, vol. I p. 479, "polyandry is not Vedic" (with obligatory references to extremely sporadic exceptions such as in the RV "wedding hymn"). Then in the Mahabharata there is suddenly the major character of Draupadii/Krsnaa marrying all five Pandava brothers. I am aware of the two volumes of Alf Hiltebeitel which are an excellent ethnographic study of the Draupadii cult in South India. However, what are currently the most important philological studies of the background of this character and of polyandry itself in late Vedic, post Vedic and epic/Puranic texts? Apart from purely/mainly structuralist approaches (Biardeau), I would be interested in explorations of whether the problematic presence of polyandry in the Mahabharata and elsewhere may imply a reference to contemporaneous (Mahabharata time) practices (just as the reference to Nagas burnt in the Khandava forest was taken as more than just an element needed in the narrative: it would also have been a reference to forest tribes and conflicting modes of resource use acc. to Irawati Karve and to Gadgil & Guha).
With best regards,
Jan Houben
--

Jan E.M. Houben

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

Sciences historiques et philologiques

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>

johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben


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From manufrancis at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 12:09:02 2018
From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 18 14:09:02 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Job vacancies at the Cluster of Excellence "Written Artefacts"
In-Reply-To: <199753243.71887522.1540469011344.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr>
Message-ID: <CANVHsm5UOCNVPMYwBDRxEveLePuxvL2JeEkBmK6yr+78Q+=19A@mail.gmail.com>

Transfered from CSMC, Hamburg


------------------------------

Dear colleagues,

following the approval of the Cluster of Excellence ?Understanding Written
Artefacts? Universit?t Hamburg invites applications for 55 new positions
for research associates. The initial fixed term is three years. The
application deadline is 16 November 2018.

Further information and calls for applications:
https://www.written-artefacts.uni-hamburg.de/en/vacant-positions.html

Please forward this call to potentially suitable candidates and share it in
your respective scientific communities, on mailing lists etc.

With best regards,

Karsten Helmholz


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 14:21:13 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 18 10:21:13 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Concerning the International Association of Sanskrit Studies
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO16tLHHyEy5q85fz71AEKxnjAAs08__Gry2JFtQweu3ACQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO17Li2PSu+QLJq=6hDuUrDJazXvB8WAXAsw4_J7BpMPj4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list-members and colleagues,

This is just a note that the letter which so many of you have signed has
now been finalized and delivered to the board of the IASS, its regional
directors, and its consultative committee. The complete text and list of
signatories is pasted below. A pdf version is also available here
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4p0fnycbfrqgse/IASSLetter.pdf?dl=0>. I
sincerely hope that I have not omitted or misspelled anyone's name. We all
await their response.

Andrew

========================

Thursday, Oct. 25, 2018


To the International Association of Sanskrit Studies:

The extremely well-organized World Sanskrit Conference that recently took
place at the University of British Columbia has given scholars of Sanskrit
all over the world an opportunity to reflect on the state of our field?an
opportunity that was, unfortunately, missed after the controversial events
of the preceding World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok. According to its
Statute <http://www.sanskritassociation.org/about-us.php>, the purpose of
the International Association of Sanskrit Studies (IASS) is to ?to promote,
diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
of the world; to maintain contacts with the organising committee of the
International Congresses of Asian and North African Studies; to organise
international conferences of Sanskrit studies; to promote scholarly
publication of Sanskrit-based studies; to establish and foster relations
with national associations of Sanskrit studies.?

We, the undersigned, believe that the IASS could do much more to ?promote,
diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the countries
of the world.? Taking this mission statement seriously would involve
expanding the range of activities of the IASS. More importantly, it would
require the IASS to strenuously avoid any actions or remarks, on the part
of its members and leadership, which can do serious harm to the goal of
fostering Sanskrit Studies globally, and to distance itself, as a
professional organization, from such actions or remarks as already have
been made. The Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, a former
institutional member of the IASS, has withdrawn
<https://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/iass.html> its membership on precisely
these grounds (see ZDMG 168.1 [2018], p. 253), and it is possible that
other individual and institutional members will follow suit unless the IASS
develops appropriate responses to the challenges currently facing its
future.

Specifically, we would like to see the IASS do the following:

   -

   Make all offices of the Board subject to regular election. Currently the
   offices of General Secretary, Treasurer, and President are not subject to a
   regular election. It is crucial that the members of the association are
   able to elect the leadership of the association on a regular basis.
   -

   Call an election of the Board before the end of 2018. The members of the
   IASS must have the opportunity to decide who will represent them as office
   holders, and above all, as President of the Association.
   -

   Make it absolutely clear that the IASS is a scholarly organization, and
   that membership in the organization, and participation in the World
   Sanskrit Conference, requires a scholarly engagement with Sanskrit.
   -

   Sever any ties, official or unofficial, between the IASS and any
   national governments.
   -

   Create connections between Sanskrit studies and other disciplines. The
   study of Sanskrit has always had the potential for close connections to the
   disciplines of history, philosophy, linguistics, philology, sociology,
   anthropology, literary studies, religious studies, gender studies, and many
   more. The IASS should forge connections between its members and the
   professional organizations that represent those disciplines.
   -

   Form committees devoted to professional issues, publication, research,
   diversity, and programming, which will produce reports on a regular basis
   .
   -

   Originate guidelines for the conduct of future WSC meetings and other
   IASS-sponsored activities that emphasise professionalism, neutrality, and
   independence.

It may be the case that these changes cannot be implemented without
rewriting the Statute of the IASS. In that case, we request that the IASS
will involve a diverse selection of scholars, drawn from outside the
current Board and Consultative Committee, to assist in making the required
changes, and that this process be as transparent as possible. We also
sincerely request the IASS Board to respond to these suggestions in a
timely manner and apprise the undersigned scholars what steps it will take
and when. We consider these issues to be of utmost importance. We are
concerned that if the IASS does not take appropriate steps as a matter of
urgency, even more scholars will abandon the Association and its
conferences, to the detriment of international Sanskrit studies.

Signed [in alphabetical order],


Andrea Acri

Michael Allen

Talia Ariav

Christ?le Barois

Stefan Baums

Ana Bajzelj

Gil Ben-Herut

Jason Birch

Peter Bisschop

Adam Bowles

Jo Brill

Yigal Bronner

Whitney Cox

Daniele Cuneo

Victor D?Avella

Paul Dundas

Vincent Eltschinger

Christoph Emmrich

Iris Iran Farkhondeh

Marco Ferrante

Marco Franceschini

Emmanuel Francis

Elisa Freschi

Jonardon Ganeri

Rupert Gethin

Robert P. Goldman

Arlo Griffiths

J?rgen Hanneder

James Hartzell

Zo? Woodbury High

Alfred Hiltebeitel

Jan Houben

Jamal A. Jones

Mrinal Kaul

Agathe Keller

Birgit Kellner

Dermot Killingley

Rafal Kleczek

Jesse Knutson

Frank K?hler

Steven E. Lindquist

Jeffery D. Long

Timothy Lubin

Philipp Maas

Nabanjan Maitra

Jim Mallinson

Mark McClish

Lawrence J. McCrea

Christopher Minkowski

Jason Neelis

John Nemec

Andrew J. Nicholson

Monika Nowakowska

Heike Oberlin

Patrick Olivelle

Andrew Ollett

Lubom?r Ondra?ka

Karin Preisendanz

Asko Parpola

Parimal Patil

Pranav Prakash

Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad

Srilata Raman

Ajay Rao

Srilata Raman

Isabelle Ratie

Madhusudan Rimal

Antonia Ruppel

Alexis Sanderson

Bihani Sarkar

Patricia Sauthoff

Martha Ann Selby

Sven Sellmer

David Shulman

Shalini Sinha

Michael Slouber

Caley Charles Smith

Frederick M. Smith

Barbora Sojkova

Hamsa Stainton

Sally Sutherland Goldman

McComas Taylor

Raffaele Torella

Davey K. Tomlinson

Audrey Truschke

Gary Tubb

Roy Tzohar

Alexander Uskokov

Christian Wedemeyer

Lidia Wojtczak

Dominik Wujastyk

Ananya Vajpeyi

Christophe Vielle

Robert Zydenbos




On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:36 AM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Just a note that we will be accepting signatures until Wednesday, Oct. 24.
> Please also feel free to share the letter with colleagues.
>
> s?nunayam,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 4:57 AM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> A number of Sanskrit scholars plan to present the following letter to the
>> International Association of Sanskrit Studies. We think it's important that
>> everyone in the field of Sanskrit studies who is concerned about its future
>> should have the opportunity to read it and add his or her voice. If you
>> would like to add your name, send a message to iassletter at gmail.com (not
>> to me, please). After a week or two, the list will be finalized and
>> presented to the IASS.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Current as of: October 11, 2018
>>
>> (to sign, send a message to *iassletter at gmail.com <iassletter at gmail.com>*
>> )
>>
>>
>> To the International Association of Sanskrit Studies:
>>
>>
>> The extremely well-organized World Sanskrit Conference that recently took
>> place at the University of British Columbia has given scholars of Sanskrit
>> all over the world an opportunity to reflect on the state of our field?an
>> opportunity that was, unfortunately, missed after the controversial events
>> of the preceding World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok. According to its
>> Statute <http://www.sanskritassociation.org/about-us.php>, the purpose
>> of the International Association of Sanskrit Studies (IASS) is to ?to
>> promote, diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the
>> countries of the world; to maintain contacts with the organising committee
>> of the International Congresses of Asian and North African Studies; to
>> organise international conferences of Sanskrit studies; to promote
>> scholarly publication of Sanskrit-based studies; to establish and foster
>> relations with national associations of Sanskrit studies.?
>>
>> We, the undersigned, believe that the IASS could do much more to
>> ?promote, diversify, intensify and coordinate Sanskrit Studies in all the
>> countries of the world.? Taking this mission statement seriously would
>> involve expanding the range of activities of the IASS. More importantly, it
>> would require the IASS to strenuously avoid any actions or remarks, on the
>> part of its members and leadership, which can do serious harm to the goal
>> of fostering Sanskrit Studies globally, and to distance itself, as a
>> professional organization, from such actions or remarks as already have
>> been made. The Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, a former
>> institutional member of the IASS, has withdrawn
>> <https://www.dmg-web.de/indologie/iass.html> its membership on precisely
>> these grounds (see ZDMG 168.1 [2018], p. 253), and it is possible that
>> other individual and institutional members will follow suit unless the IASS
>> develops appropriate responses to the challenges currently facing its
>> future.
>>
>> Specifically, we would like to see the IASS do the following:
>>
>>    -
>>
>>    Make all offices of the Board subject to regular election. Currently
>>    the offices of General Secretary, Treasurer, and President are not subject
>>    to a regular election. It is crucial that the members of the association
>>    are able to elect the leadership of the association on a regular basis.
>>    -
>>
>>    Call an election of the Board before the end of 2018. The members of
>>    the IASS must have the opportunity to decide who will represent them as
>>    office holders, and above all, as President of the Association.
>>    -
>>
>>    Make it absolutely clear that the IASS is a scholarly organization,
>>    and that membership in the organization, and participation in the World
>>    Sanskrit Conference, requires a scholarly engagement with Sanskrit.
>>    -
>>
>>    Sever any ties, official or unofficial, between the IASS and any
>>    national governments.
>>    -
>>
>>    Create connections between Sanskrit studies and other disciplines.
>>    The study of Sanskrit has always had the potential for close connections to
>>    the disciplines of history, philosophy, linguistics, philology, sociology,
>>    anthropology, literary studies, religious studies, gender studies, and many
>>    more. The IASS should forge connections between its members and the
>>    professional organizations that represent those disciplines.
>>    -
>>
>>    Form committees devoted to professional issues, publication,
>>    research, diversity, and programming, which will produce reports on a
>>    regular basis.
>>    -
>>
>>    Originate guidelines for the conduct of future WSC meetings and other
>>    IASS-sponsored activities that emphasise professionalism, neutrality, and
>>    independence.
>>
>> It may be the case that these changes cannot be implemented without
>> rewriting the Statute of the IASS. In that case, we request that the IASS
>> will involve a diverse selection of scholars, drawn from outside the
>> current Board and Consultative Committee, to assist in making the required
>> changes, and that this process be as transparent as possible. We also
>> sincerely request the IASS Board to respond to these suggestions in a
>> timely manner and apprise the undersigned scholars what steps it will take
>> and when. We consider these issues to be of utmost importance. We are
>> concerned that if the IASS does not take appropriate steps as a matter of
>> urgency, even more scholars will abandon the Association and its
>> conferences, to the detriment of international Sanskrit studies.
>>
>> Signed [in alphabetical order],
>>
>>
>> Yigal Bronner
>>
>> Jonardon Ganeri
>>
>> Mrinal Kaul
>>
>> Jim Mallinson
>>
>> Andrew Ollett
>>
>> Karin Preisendanz
>>
>> Ajay Rao
>>
>> Isabelle Ratie
>>
>> Martha Ann Selby
>>
>> David Shulman
>>
>> Gary Tubb
>>
>> Dominik Wujastyk
>>
>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Thu Oct 25 17:47:39 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 18 19:47:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR02MB321216B5257DE9DA9574B6058CF70@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFvYdhfBZR__Xv+J3y2HHV5PC9mSuRcEtged6vCLOdcrJg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

A, perhaps, simplistic explanation for the unexpected textual appearance of
Draupadi?s polyandrous marriage - quite unknown to the earlier strata of
the epic.



To my mind ? a bit of cultural politics, at work. Surrounding inclusions of
new economically important tribal territories in the realm of the 'Aryas'.



The need to show to its fresh members that they do belong ? despite some of
their outlandish customs. The need to demonstrate that we, the 'Aryas',
also share them - the example of one of them, of polyandrous union, is
certainly to be found in our great epic. And, considering the status of its
participants, it is given a properly high prestige.


Regards, etc.,


Artur Karp (ret.)

Chair of South Asian Studies,

University of Warsaw

Poland



2018-10-25 13:51 GMT+02:00 Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear Professor Houben,
>
>
>
> In this connection there is a book by Sarva Daman Singh entitled *Polyandry
> in Ancient India* (Motilal Banarsidass, 1978). There are also some
> enthological comments on the last few pages of A. N. Jani?s paper
> (?Socio-Moral Implications of Draupadi?s Marriage to Five Husbands?) in
> Bimal Krishna Matilal, ed., *Moral Dilemmas in the Mahabharata* (Indian
> Institute of Advanced Study / Motilal Banarsidass, 1989).
>
>
>
> After the Pandavas have already decided they will all marry Draupadi, the
> link from this particular polyandric marriage to other such marriages is
> apparently made by Yudhishthira, in amongst a battery of other explanations
> for it, when he addresses Drupada at Mbh 1.187.28cd: *pUrveSAm
> AnupUrvyeNa yAtaM vartmAnuyAmahe* (?We follow one after the other the
> path that was travelled by the Ancient?, trans. van Buitenen). In context
> this is a general comment on what one can do given the subtlety of *
> dharma*: the previous line reads *sUkSmo dharmo mahArAja nAsya vidmo
> vayaM gatim* (?The law is subtle, great king, and we do not know its
> course?). But the comment can be taken to imply polyandric precedents.
> Drupada seems to deny that there are precedents (or at least respectable
> ones) when he says to Vyasa: *na cApy AcaritaH pUrvair ayaM dharmo
> mahAtmabhiH* (?Nor has this Law been practiced by the Ancient of great
> spirits?, Mbh 1.188.8ab). But Yudhishthira then gives the example (*zrUyate
> hi purANe 'pi*) of Jatila Gautami who ?lay with the Seven Seers? (Mbh
> 1.188.14). Jatila as Draupadi?s precursor in this regard is mentioned also
> by the women of Hastinapura at Mbh 12.39.5. But this precursor is evidently
> in the realm of distant mythology, not the realm of contemporaneous
> practice.
>
>
>
> Simon Brodbeck
>
> Cardiff University
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf
> Of *Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
> *Sent:* 24 October 2018 21:59
> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> According to the Vedic Index of A.A. Macdonell and A.B. Keith, vol. I p.
> 479, "polyandry is not Vedic" (with obligatory references to extremely
> sporadic exceptions such as in the RV "wedding hymn"). Then in the
> Mahabharata there is suddenly the major character of Draupadii/Krsnaa
> marrying all five Pandava brothers. I am aware of the two volumes of Alf
> Hiltebeitel which are an excellent ethnographic study of the Draupadii cult
> in South India. However, what are currently the most important philological
> studies of the background of this character and of polyandry itself in late
> Vedic, post Vedic and epic/Puranic texts? Apart from purely/mainly
> structuralist approaches (Biardeau), I would be interested in explorations
> of whether the problematic presence of polyandry in the Mahabharata and
> elsewhere may imply a reference to contemporaneous (Mahabharata time)
> practices (just as the reference to Nagas burnt in the Khandava forest was
> taken as more than just an element needed in the narrative: it would also
> have been a reference to forest tribes and conflicting modes of resource
> use acc. to Irawati Karve and to Gadgil & Guha).
>
> With best regards,
>
> Jan Houben
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Oct 26 00:49:31 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 18 17:49:31 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfo4RLAjkDq4c4G-OWo7sqBHTkhWPA+Hf0Pgz6rBJhu6g@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses

?????????? ????? ????????? ?? ????? ?
?? ???????????? ?????????????????????: ???????
O Krishna, you rise in my mind like the moon with cool rays. With the flood
of your sweetness, the modulations of my mind have been arrested.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 04:50:02 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 00:50:02 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clay Sanskrit Library search message
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHEhSoDf-ZzMDqk9DcA0ySO-yRpiMqjSt96S9e9QQv3iA@mail.gmail.com>

I just did a google search for Clay Sanskrit Library and in the google
search result for the library  Google prints a message "This site may be
hacked"

Harry Spier


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From jbagchee at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 16:16:55 2018
From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 12:16:55 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFvYdhfBZR__Xv+J3y2HHV5PC9mSuRcEtged6vCLOdcrJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB7QHO0PQ1XbzReOTqRL+4ufGyYnxW-jg_h_sgy-57oe2Gm_Pg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Artur,



I see several problems with your argument.

>> quite unknown to the earlier strata of the epic.

How are you identifying the ?earlier strata? of the epic? If you argue, the
earlier strata are the ones that do not report polyandrous marriage, the
argument is circular.



>>To my mind ? a bit of cultural politics, at work. Surrounding inclusions
of new economically important tribal territories in the realm of the
'Aryas'.

Do you have evidence for thinking polyandry is non-Aryan? German
Indologists claimed the P???avas were non-Aryan (see *The Nay Science*,
123); Fitzgerald rehashes this theory (ibid., 151). But for the argument to
work, the P???avas must be originally non-Aryan, whereas, for the
attempted cultural assimilation to hold, they must be Aryans in the MBh,
but the reason for positing a discrepancy between the text and ?historical?
reality is their polyandry, which is non-Aryan, but this was the very point
in contention.... I am sure you appreciate the circularity.



>>The need to show to its fresh members that they do belong ? despite some
of their outlandish customs.

If the point was to suggest ?that they do belong,? surely it is better to
retain them in the text rather than ?whitefacing? them. Indeed, if the
point was to show that, though non-Aryan, on consideration polyandry is
acceptable, there was no need to make the P???avas ?Aryas.? I think the
problem arises from your vacillation between the MBh?s use of the term and
a racial sense (which you wrongly identify with the ?historical? meaning),
and the circumstance that you use the former as evidence for the latter.



>>The need to demonstrate that we, the 'Aryas', also share them - the
example of one of them, of polyandrous union, is certainly to be found in
our great epic. And, considering the status of its participants, it is
given a properly high prestige.

But *what* epic? In what text was this change made? Presumably, it was made
in the exemplar or exemplars destined for dissemination in ?tribal
territories,? since the claim was for their appeasement. How, then, do you
explain its occurrence in the manuscripts found today? Do you suppose that
the exemplars in the Aryan territories ceased to be copied and control of
the tradition passed to ?tribal territories??



>>is certainly to be found in our great epic.

Non-Aryan tribes could hardly know of the MBh as ?our great epic,? since
this was their first encounter with it. (If it was not, the argument
doesn?t work, since they then know a version exists without polyandry.) The
argument thus requires them both to know and not know of the MBh. Perhaps
you mean the MBh?s fame preceded it such that the tribes could appreciate
the favor done them? But they could only appreciate the favor done them if
they knew that polyandry was not normally accepted among ?Aryans.? The
argument is self-defeating.



Moreover, scholars have worked the argument both ways?certain sexual or
social practices were commonplace among the ?Aryans?; it is not the
practice that was inserted into the text but its posterior justification.
The only criterion appears to be what the scholar wishes to attribute (or
not see attributed) to his ?Aryans??constructed, of course, entirely from
his fantasy self-image. Winternitz?s comment is apt: ?Mr. Dahlmann says
that the custom is ?un-Aryan? (p. 90). But who can tell whether the
P???avas were Aryans or non-Aryans? Besides, what right have we to describe
everything we do not like as ?un-Aryan??? (?Notes on the Mah?bh?rata,?
756). I recommend revisiting his article and also *The Nay Science*,
chapters 1?2.



Three final points: (1) You appear to be working on a model of donor-donee
cultures, which has its origins in Friedrich Schlegel?s work, and was
clearly not just racial but *racist *in intent. Vast amounts of time and
ingenuity have been expended on figuring out what proportion of Indian
culture can be attributed to ?Aryan? influence (Oldenberg, Frauwallner,
etc.). Perhaps we should move beyond it. (2) Cultural interactions are more
complex than our models assume. Even in the most recent ?Aryan? aggression
(for which we also happen to have reliable historical data), the situation
was more complex, as this article explains:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/poland-holocaust-death-camps/552455/.
(3) Ever since Christian Lassen, it has been customary for Indologists to
identify racial explanations with the ?real,? ?historical? meaning of the
text. In truth, these pseudohistorical explanations clarify nothing. They
only attest to our penchant for privileging racial explanations over other
kinds of explanation (literary, aesthetic, philosophical, psychoanalytic,
etc.). Here also, we should ask why we think we have understood a text when
we have converted it from one set of symbols (its own) into another (our
own). We should ask why race is the fiction that in our time we grant
immediate reality such that when we have identified MBh characters with
tribes or communities, we think we know what *really *happened or the
*real *underlying event that was blown up into ?mythic? proportions. (From
this also arises the notion that Indians lack a historical sense; what we
really mean is that they don?t possess history in our specific sense of a
racial narrative.) This also applies to Indian scholars such as Irawati
Karve, for whom the ?myth? of the burning of the Kh???ava Forest is
?really? about Aryan invasion and land-clearing. Incidentally, Irawati
Karve received her PhD under the infamous Eugen Fischer of the
*Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut
f?r Anthropologie, menschliche Erblehre und Eugenik *so these connections
of how racial discourse entered South Asian studies can be quite easily
traced.



Regards,

Joydeep
Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>

The Nay Science
<http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
Argument and Design
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
<http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
German Indology on OBO Hinduism
<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
___________________
What, then, is Philosophy?
Philosophy is the supremely precious.

Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5


On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 1:48 PM Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> A, perhaps, simplistic explanation for the unexpected textual appearance
> of Draupadi?s polyandrous marriage - quite unknown to the earlier strata of
> the epic.
>
>
>
> To my mind ? a bit of cultural politics, at work. Surrounding inclusions
> of new economically important tribal territories in the realm of the
> 'Aryas'.
>
>
>
> The need to show to its fresh members that they do belong ? despite some
> of their outlandish customs. The need to demonstrate that we, the 'Aryas',
> also share them - the example of one of them, of polyandrous union, is
> certainly to be found in our great epic. And, considering the status of its
> participants, it is given a properly high prestige.
>
>
> Regards, etc.,
>
>
> Artur Karp (ret.)
>
> Chair of South Asian Studies,
>
> University of Warsaw
>
> Poland
>
>
>
> 2018-10-25 13:51 GMT+02:00 Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> Dear Professor Houben,
>>
>>
>>
>> In this connection there is a book by Sarva Daman Singh entitled *Polyandry
>> in Ancient India* (Motilal Banarsidass, 1978). There are also some
>> enthological comments on the last few pages of A. N. Jani?s paper
>> (?Socio-Moral Implications of Draupadi?s Marriage to Five Husbands?) in
>> Bimal Krishna Matilal, ed., *Moral Dilemmas in the Mahabharata* (Indian
>> Institute of Advanced Study / Motilal Banarsidass, 1989).
>>
>>
>>
>> After the Pandavas have already decided they will all marry Draupadi, the
>> link from this particular polyandric marriage to other such marriages is
>> apparently made by Yudhishthira, in amongst a battery of other explanations
>> for it, when he addresses Drupada at Mbh 1.187.28cd: *pUrveSAm
>> AnupUrvyeNa yAtaM vartmAnuyAmahe* (?We follow one after the other the
>> path that was travelled by the Ancient?, trans. van Buitenen). In
>> context this is a general comment on what one can do given the subtlety of *
>> dharma*: the previous line reads *sUkSmo dharmo mahArAja nAsya vidmo
>> vayaM gatim* (?The law is subtle, great king, and we do not know its
>> course?). But the comment can be taken to imply polyandric precedents.
>> Drupada seems to deny that there are precedents (or at least respectable
>> ones) when he says to Vyasa: *na cApy AcaritaH pUrvair ayaM dharmo
>> mahAtmabhiH* (?Nor has this Law been practiced by the Ancient of great
>> spirits?, Mbh 1.188.8ab). But Yudhishthira then gives the example (*zrUyate
>> hi purANe 'pi*) of Jatila Gautami who ?lay with the Seven Seers? (Mbh
>> 1.188.14). Jatila as Draupadi?s precursor in this regard is mentioned also
>> by the women of Hastinapura at Mbh 12.39.5. But this precursor is evidently
>> in the realm of distant mythology, not the realm of contemporaneous
>> practice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon Brodbeck
>>
>> Cardiff University
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf
>> Of *Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
>> *Sent:* 24 October 2018 21:59
>> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> According to the Vedic Index of A.A. Macdonell and A.B. Keith, vol. I p.
>> 479, "polyandry is not Vedic" (with obligatory references to extremely
>> sporadic exceptions such as in the RV "wedding hymn"). Then in the
>> Mahabharata there is suddenly the major character of Draupadii/Krsnaa
>> marrying all five Pandava brothers. I am aware of the two volumes of Alf
>> Hiltebeitel which are an excellent ethnographic study of the Draupadii cult
>> in South India. However, what are currently the most important philological
>> studies of the background of this character and of polyandry itself in late
>> Vedic, post Vedic and epic/Puranic texts? Apart from purely/mainly
>> structuralist approaches (Biardeau), I would be interested in explorations
>> of whether the problematic presence of polyandry in the Mahabharata and
>> elsewhere may imply a reference to contemporaneous (Mahabharata time)
>> practices (just as the reference to Nagas burnt in the Khandava forest was
>> taken as more than just an element needed in the narrative: it would also
>> have been a reference to forest tribes and conflicting modes of resource
>> use acc. to Irawati Karve and to Gadgil & Guha).
>>
>> With best regards,
>>
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk  Fri Oct 26 16:48:44 2018
From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 16:48:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clay Sanskrit Library search message
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHEhSoDf-ZzMDqk9DcA0ySO-yRpiMqjSt96S9e9QQv3iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <LO2P265MB03047D60FF652D5A3A0184438EF00@LO2P265MB0304.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Dear Harry,

Unfortunately, I can confirm that the CSL website was hacked. I was notified about it some days ago and the work to bring it back online started immediately, but we still don?t know when it will be back online.

Best wishes,

Camillo


________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University?s
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: Harry Spier [mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com]
Sent: 26 October 2018 05:50
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clay Sanskrit Library search message

I just did a google search for Clay Sanskrit Library and in the google search result for the library  Google prints a message "This site may be hacked"

Harry Spier


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 21:24:14 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 17:24:14 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CAB7QHO0PQ1XbzReOTqRL+4ufGyYnxW-jg_h_sgy-57oe2Gm_Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFk-Eegc05UymbnUUk-J=OMO8gCvPrw7tDxrw34Q2cn_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM Joydeep via INDOLOGY

> How are you identifying the ?earlier strata? of the epic?
>

1) I'd be interested if someone could  point out the scholarly articles on
relative dating of different parts of the Mahabharata.?

2) Could the techniques Michael Witzel pointed out years ago in this
posting  to relatively date the books or the Ramayana  be used.  I.e
relative occurance of  vai or similar words in vedic position 2 versus
elsewhere. ?
http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-March/020863.html

3) Could a similar technique be used with other linguistic
characteristics.I.e. relative occurance of linguistic characteristics  that
are uncommon in vedic but common in classical sanskrit.  Whitney noted use
of passive constructions,  participles instead of verbs, substitution of
compounds for sentences as characteristic of the change from vedic to the
classical language.

Harry Spier

>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 21:43:03 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 15:43:03 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Clay Sanskrit Library search message
In-Reply-To: <LO2P265MB03047D60FF652D5A3A0184438EF00@LO2P265MB0304.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdpmUGfX7jWK03UWayR7D+dJZD4Yu1J7pJb-_kidszuVA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be interested to know who hacked it, if that can be discovered.  Just
random bots, or something more targetted (what possible reason?)?

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca



On Fri, 26 Oct 2018 at 15:25, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Harry,
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I can confirm that the CSL website was hacked. I was
> notified about it some days ago and the work to bring it back online
> started immediately, but we still don?t know when it will be back online.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Camillo
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>
> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>
>
>
> Bodleian Libraries
>
> The Weston Library
>
> Broad Street, Oxford
>
> OX1 3BG
>
>
>
> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>
> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>
>
>
> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>
> in Oxford University?s
>
> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>
> www.mindgrowing.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Harry Spier [mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 26 October 2018 05:50
> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Clay Sanskrit Library search message
>
>
>
> I just did a google search for Clay Sanskrit Library and in the google
> search result for the library  Google prints a message "This site may be
> hacked"
>
>
>
> Harry Spier
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 22:19:13 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 18:19:13 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFk-Eegc05UymbnUUk-J=OMO8gCvPrw7tDxrw34Q2cn_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO14W2LM7tUnowLrXexi1yQWo1H5+0EH72d=c8fuaSk0zqw@mail.gmail.com>

Oliver Hellwig has written some very interesting articles on applying
various statistical techniques to Sanskrit texts (including the
Mah?bh?rata) in order to determine "authorial structures" and hence
relative dating:

https://doi.org/10.1093/llc/fqp034
https://doi.org/10.1093/llc/fqn043
https://doi.org/10.1163/15728536-06002001

The last article presents a technique for distinguishing sections of a text
based on several features (lexical, syntactic, metrical, etc.) while
controlling for differences introduced by changing topics.

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM Joydeep via INDOLOGY
>
>> How are you identifying the ?earlier strata? of the epic?
>>
>
> 1) I'd be interested if someone could  point out the scholarly articles
> on  relative dating of different parts of the Mahabharata.?
>
> 2) Could the techniques Michael Witzel pointed out years ago in this
> posting  to relatively date the books or the Ramayana  be used.  I.e
> relative occurance of  vai or similar words in vedic position 2 versus
> elsewhere. ?
>
> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-March/020863.html
>
> 3) Could a similar technique be used with other linguistic
> characteristics.I.e. relative occurance of linguistic characteristics  that
> are uncommon in vedic but common in classical sanskrit.  Whitney noted use
> of passive constructions,  participles instead of verbs, substitution of
> compounds for sentences as characteristic of the change from vedic to the
> classical language.
>
> Harry Spier
>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jbagchee at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 23:08:32 2018
From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 19:08:32 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFk-Eegc05UymbnUUk-J=OMO8gCvPrw7tDxrw34Q2cn_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB7QHO1AFZ0tonouauW2E-zEsp_WxFCC=Qk1wdiLZ8jd5jUJCA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Harry,

For a clarification of Witzel?s views as a textual critic, see *Philology
and Criticism*, Conclusion: Textual Criticism and Indology. The entire file
is available here: https://www.academia.edu/36999444/Philology_and_Criticism.
On the attempted stratification of the BhG (and Artur?s reference to
?earlier strata?) see ?Paradigm Lost: The Application of the
Historical-Critical Method to the Bhagavadg?t?,? available here:
https://www.academia.edu/30431442/Paradigm_Lost. See especially the table
on pp. 259?61.



Best,

Joydeep


Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>

The Nay Science
<http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
Argument and Design
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
<http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
German Indology on OBO Hinduism
<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
___________________
What, then, is Philosophy?
Philosophy is the supremely precious.

Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5


On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:24 PM Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM Joydeep via INDOLOGY
>
>> How are you identifying the ?earlier strata? of the epic?
>>
>
> 1) I'd be interested if someone could  point out the scholarly articles
> on  relative dating of different parts of the Mahabharata.?
>
> 2) Could the techniques Michael Witzel pointed out years ago in this
> posting  to relatively date the books or the Ramayana  be used.  I.e
> relative occurance of  vai or similar words in vedic position 2 versus
> elsewhere. ?
>
> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-March/020863.html
>
> 3) Could a similar technique be used with other linguistic
> characteristics.I.e. relative occurance of linguistic characteristics  that
> are uncommon in vedic but common in classical sanskrit.  Whitney noted use
> of passive constructions,  participles instead of verbs, substitution of
> compounds for sentences as characteristic of the change from vedic to the
> classical language.
>
> Harry Spier
>
>>
>>
>


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From jbagchee at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 23:30:51 2018
From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 19:30:51 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO14W2LM7tUnowLrXexi1yQWo1H5+0EH72d=c8fuaSk0zqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB7QHO0xYy5TgRCSexK-7wmsL0d5aoTmN++5bn3CYL34Gy6+=g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Andrew,



I agree that Oliver has done some careful and interesting work. But in
?Stratifying the Mah?bh?rata,? he makes no claims about the MBh?s dates.
Cf. the remark: ?I would like to emphasize that these findings do not imply
any statement about the sequence of events that led to the composition of
the Bh?P or of the Mbh. They can be reconciled [both] with theories that
postulate a relatively short duration of composition [and] with temporally
more extended models [?], because the algorithm does not contain a temporal
component? (ibid., 134). Oliver explicitly emphasized this point in our
conversation in Vienna. See *Philology and Criticism*, 100, n. 81. I
haven?t examined the other articles yet, but now that you have drawn my
attention to them I will. A quick perusal reveals that ?A Chronometric
Approach to Indian Alchemical Literature? doesn?t mention the MBh at all,
whereas ?Etymological Trends in the Sanskrit Vocabulary? only places the
MBh as a whole within a broad period (500 BCE?300 CE) and doesn?t make any
claims about strata *within*the MBh. Oliver?s work is valuable precisely
because it avoids speculation as to ?redactors,? their motives, assumed
sequence and rationale for interpolation, *Besitzwechsel*, etc.



All best,

Joydeep


Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>

The Nay Science
<http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
Argument and Design
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
<http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
German Indology on OBO Hinduism
<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
___________________
What, then, is Philosophy?
Philosophy is the supremely precious.

Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5


On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 6:20 PM Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Oliver Hellwig has written some very interesting articles on applying
> various statistical techniques to Sanskrit texts (including the
> Mah?bh?rata) in order to determine "authorial structures" and hence
> relative dating:
>
> https://doi.org/10.1093/llc/fqp034
> https://doi.org/10.1093/llc/fqn043
> https://doi.org/10.1163/15728536-06002001
>
> The last article presents a technique for distinguishing sections of a
> text based on several features (lexical, syntactic, metrical, etc.) while
> controlling for differences introduced by changing topics.
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM Joydeep via INDOLOGY
>>
>>> How are you identifying the ?earlier strata? of the epic?
>>>
>>
>> 1) I'd be interested if someone could  point out the scholarly articles
>> on  relative dating of different parts of the Mahabharata.?
>>
>> 2) Could the techniques Michael Witzel pointed out years ago in this
>> posting  to relatively date the books or the Ramayana  be used.  I.e
>> relative occurance of  vai or similar words in vedic position 2 versus
>> elsewhere. ?
>>
>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-March/020863.html
>>
>> 3) Could a similar technique be used with other linguistic
>> characteristics.I.e. relative occurance of linguistic characteristics  that
>> are uncommon in vedic but common in classical sanskrit.  Whitney noted use
>> of passive constructions,  participles instead of verbs, substitution of
>> compounds for sentences as characteristic of the change from vedic to the
>> classical language.
>>
>> Harry Spier
>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Oct 27 02:34:37 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 18 19:34:37 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdtEKMJ=YohZ9A09u6WVZdaVmxHQrV8i-SjxZxSRiWYmg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses"

???????? ??? ???????????????? ?? ??????? ?
??????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????
Luring me with your words, you climbed on the chariot of my mind. Now you
are the driver, and yet this chariot is not going anywhere else.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 09:10:21 2018
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 18:10:21 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrB675_V2VdZEnmVbYcYfYSAWvp-pgYsKgnKMupY4-kHWg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and their
equivalent in English and/or Latin?

Something like this, for example:
vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem

thank you.

All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University

Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)


Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>

Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>

   -

Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>

Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>

Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 09:21:37 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 14:51:37 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrB675_V2VdZEnmVbYcYfYSAWvp-pgYsKgnKMupY4-kHWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eauiqWdsE4eeDzagR3mysQQ1bMNUuGc3MbqmAvcLChBfg@mail.gmail.com>

Many are in te form of nyayas such as ?????????????????

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 2:41 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hello,
> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and their
> equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>
> Something like this, for example:
> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>
> thank you.
>
> All the best,
>
> ????? ???????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
> University, Japan
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
> Japan
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
> National University
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>
> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>
>
> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>
> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>
>    -
>
> Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>
> Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>
> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From jhakgirish at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 12:29:32 2018
From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 17:59:32 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdtEKMJ=YohZ9A09u6WVZdaVmxHQrV8i-SjxZxSRiWYmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdrZG0dXWpD-dO1QetjKV4eVd+uAmvf5b5yM-mptG7_w1vqJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Respected Professor sahib
Pranamaami.
Padyam aasvaadya hristo;smi bhaavayaami Dhanurdharah.
Paartha eva samaayaato vidyate maadhavah kimu.
Padyam hridyam haratyeva maanasaani sachetasaam.
Rochate tu "atohyesha"  saarathistvam-atah param..
Dhanyo'smi iti Devanaagari-tankanaanabhijno Vidushaam vidheyah
Girish K. Jha

On 10/27/18, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> Continuing my Krishna verses"
>
> ???????? ??? ???????????????? ?? ??????? ?
> ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????
> Luring me with your words, you climbed on the chariot of my mind. Now you
> are the driver, and yet this chariot is not going anywhere else.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>




From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca  Sat Oct 27 12:33:01 2018
From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan S. Gillon, Prof.)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 12:33:01 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrB675_V2VdZEnmVbYcYfYSAWvp-pgYsKgnKMupY4-kHWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6e88dd6-c05a-82ac-f18c-f0c366e75ff8@mcgill.ca>

The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.

Brendan Gillon

On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
Hello,
Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and their equivalent in English and/or Latin?

Something like this, for example:
vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem

thank you.

All the best,

?????????????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University

Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney

bodhap?rvam calema ;-)

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B0ONiOO-EUx-SW40eFB1Z296VEk&revid=0B0ONiOO-EUx-TFZJWmNaRUEvb2E5QnVxdFNvYk91Ny8yVm5BPQ]

Yogascapes in Japan<http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>

Academia<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>

  *

Linkedin<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>

Edanz<https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>

Modern Yoga Research<http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>






_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--

Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca<mailto:brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca>
Department of Linguistics
McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
H3A 1A7  CANADA

webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Oct 27 13:09:14 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 06:09:14 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
In-Reply-To: <CAKdrZG0dXWpD-dO1QetjKV4eVd+uAmvf5b5yM-mptG7_w1vqJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcFMivqL3Fc=cdX8VV4Q-iCuboGhb+65nPyuyeaqyN8tg@mail.gmail.com>

?????????????? ????????????? ? ????????: ?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:29 AM Girish Jha <jhakgirish at gmail.com> wrote:

> Respected Professor sahib
> Pranamaami.
> Padyam aasvaadya hristo;smi bhaavayaami Dhanurdharah.
> Paartha eva samaayaato vidyate maadhavah kimu.
> Padyam hridyam haratyeva maanasaani sachetasaam.
> Rochate tu "atohyesha"  saarathistvam-atah param..
> Dhanyo'smi iti Devanaagari-tankanaanabhijno Vidushaam vidheyah
> Girish K. Jha
>
> On 10/27/18, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> wrote:
> > Continuing my Krishna verses"
> >
> > ???????? ??? ???????????????? ?? ??????? ?
> > ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????
> > Luring me with your words, you climbed on the chariot of my mind. Now you
> > are the driver, and yet this chariot is not going anywhere else.
> >
> > Madhav M. Deshpande
> > Professor Emeritus
> > Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > University of Michigan
> > [Residence: Campbell, California]
> >
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Oct 27 13:54:33 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 06:54:33 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Jaini's 95th birthday
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzew=88n9JX=3S6XrTO71ZMAp9Ui2HaJERGuhxbK=6XPcw@mail.gmail.com>

I was so fortunate to attend Professor Padmanabh Jaini's 95th birthday
celebration yesterday at the University of California in Berkeley. In 1972,
Jaini left Michigan for Berkeley, and I became his replacement in Michigan.
He is a giant in the fields of Buddhist and Jain Studies, and it was
wonderful to see the love of his students and colleagues for him.

[image: IMG_2027.HEIC]

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 14:18:45 2018
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 23:18:45 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <a6e88dd6-c05a-82ac-f18c-f0c366e75ff8@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrBnnFrpB9d7+QvJtQts91f-v_m_iEtYG5HCSZNVj8tBRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Brendan.

I found Pandeya's book on archive
<https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
.
Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to share
such things here.

I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book Philipp
Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie der fr?hen
philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.

All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University

Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)


Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>

Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>

   -

Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>

Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>

Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>





On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a discussion of
> fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard Hamblin's Fallacies,
> Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies (hetvaabhaasa) in India is
> Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a formal analysis, Eastern Book
> Linkers.
>
> Brendan Gillon
>
> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and their
> equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>
> Something like this, for example:
> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>
> thank you.
>
> All the best,
>
> ????? ???????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
> University, Japan
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
> Japan
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
> Department, Australian National University
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>
> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>
>
> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>
> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>
>    -
>
> Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>
> Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>
> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
>
> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
> Department of Linguistics
> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>
> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 15:49:56 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 17:49:56 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrBnnFrpB9d7+QvJtQts91f-v_m_iEtYG5HCSZNVj8tBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4JNYE7J9ieQr4JnxpJX4FpkGRmJDS-3N7BfoFMYHShPyA@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
the library....
https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
point is now rather clear...

JAS


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thank you, Brendan.
>
> I found Pandeya's book on archive
> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
> .
> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to share
> such things here.
>
> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book Philipp
> Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie der fr?hen
> philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>
> All the best,
>
> ????? ???????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
> University, Japan
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
> Japan
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
> Department, Australian National University
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>
> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>
>
> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>
> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>
>    -
>
> Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>
> Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>
> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a discussion
>> of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard Hamblin's
>> Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies (hetvaabhaasa) in
>> India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a formal analysis,
>> Eastern Book Linkers.
>>
>> Brendan Gillon
>>
>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and their
>> equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>
>> Something like this, for example:
>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>
>> thank you.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> ????? ???????
>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>> University, Japan
>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
>> Japan
>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>> Department, Australian National University
>>
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>
>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>
>>
>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>
>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>
>>    -
>>
>> Linkedin
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>
>> Edanz
>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>
>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>> Department of Linguistics
>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>
>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Oct 27 17:41:39 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 19:41:39 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CAB7QHO0xYy5TgRCSexK-7wmsL0d5aoTmN++5bn3CYL34Gy6+=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsW1rYTC3tRaVvpaz5Dfc2Z1Yhe5gRG=-dp8by_VTnVEg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Discussants,



In his letter (the first *re*) Jan E.M. Houben writes: "Then in the
Mahabharata there is suddenly the major character of Draupadii/Krsnaa
marrying all five Pandava brothers."



Suddenly. The unexpected appearance of the motif.



Unexpected ? and seen as such in the Mbh. (I, CLXLVIII);  the two
mythological precedents given there seem to be unknown to those who
participate in the exchange of opinions on the project.



The creation of the epic is in itself a political act. Why, then, shouldn't
we treat the acts of its heroes as mirroring the political ethos of the era?



The question arises ? why? Why would the epic makers want Draupadi to marry
'all five Pandava brothers'? To my mind ? a signal, directed to the
prospective audiences of the epic, confirming their *belonging to*.



You were kind enough to kill my supposition ? using the
philological/logical arsenal of counter-arguments.



The Mahabharatian stratigraphy. A difficult subject, in itself.



But ? to my mind (again) ? what is unexpected, devoid of precedents, might
be rightly treated as belonging to the epic's later stratum. As something
disturbing, a novelty, unsettling in its very unexpectedness. Demanding
explanations ? and given them, but ? unconvincing and weak. Opening the
space for the appearance of successive, ever new concepts of feminine
power. And freedom. Vide the popularity of the motif of the Draupadi's
*svayamvara* ? in its modern film-and-theatrical versions.



https://www.google.pl/search?source=hp&ei=LZrUW4fFNLLPrgScvZHAAg&q=draupadi+swayamvar&oq=Draupadi+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1903.4327.0.8316.10.7.0.2.2.0.177.634.6j1.7.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.9.642.0...0.Tidik47OxuA



[About 108,000 results !!!!]



A bit more on *unexpectedness* ? no one called my way of thinking on the
nature of Indian cultural processes (with their search for the ways of
intercommunication) as *racist*. Not so far.




Regards ?



Artur Karp

2018-10-27 1:30 GMT+02:00 Joydeep via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
:

> Dear Andrew,
>
>
>
> I agree that Oliver has done some careful and interesting work. But in
> ?Stratifying the Mah?bh?rata,? he makes no claims about the MBh?s dates.
> Cf. the remark: ?I would like to emphasize that these findings do not imply
> any statement about the sequence of events that led to the composition of
> the Bh?P or of the Mbh. They can be reconciled [both] with theories that
> postulate a relatively short duration of composition [and] with temporally
> more extended models [?], because the algorithm does not contain a temporal
> component? (ibid., 134). Oliver explicitly emphasized this point in our
> conversation in Vienna. See *Philology and Criticism*, 100, n. 81. I
> haven?t examined the other articles yet, but now that you have drawn my
> attention to them I will. A quick perusal reveals that ?A Chronometric
> Approach to Indian Alchemical Literature? doesn?t mention the MBh at all,
> whereas ?Etymological Trends in the Sanskrit Vocabulary? only places the
> MBh as a whole within a broad period (500 BCE?300 CE) and doesn?t make any
> claims about strata *within*the MBh. Oliver?s work is valuable precisely
> because it avoids speculation as to ?redactors,? their motives, assumed
> sequence and rationale for interpolation, *Besitzwechsel*, etc.
>
>
>
> All best,
>
> Joydeep
>
>
> Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
> Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>
>
> The Nay Science
> <http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
> Argument and Design
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
> Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
> When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
> Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
> <http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
> German Indology on OBO Hinduism
> <http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
> ___________________
> What, then, is Philosophy?
> Philosophy is the supremely precious.
>
> Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 6:20 PM Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Oliver Hellwig has written some very interesting articles on applying
>> various statistical techniques to Sanskrit texts (including the
>> Mah?bh?rata) in order to determine "authorial structures" and hence
>> relative dating:
>>
>> https://doi.org/10.1093/llc/fqp034
>> https://doi.org/10.1093/llc/fqn043
>> https://doi.org/10.1163/15728536-06002001
>>
>> The last article presents a technique for distinguishing sections of a
>> text based on several features (lexical, syntactic, metrical, etc.) while
>> controlling for differences introduced by changing topics.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:25 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM Joydeep via INDOLOGY
>>>
>>>> How are you identifying the ?earlier strata? of the epic?
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1) I'd be interested if someone could  point out the scholarly articles
>>> on  relative dating of different parts of the Mahabharata.?
>>>
>>> 2) Could the techniques Michael Witzel pointed out years ago in this
>>> posting  to relatively date the books or the Ramayana  be used.  I.e
>>> relative occurance of  vai or similar words in vedic position 2 versus
>>> elsewhere. ?
>>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.
>>> indology.info/2000-March/020863.html
>>>
>>> 3) Could a similar technique be used with other linguistic
>>> characteristics.I.e. relative occurance of linguistic characteristics  that
>>> are uncommon in vedic but common in classical sanskrit.  Whitney noted use
>>> of passive constructions,  participles instead of verbs, substitution of
>>> compounds for sentences as characteristic of the change from vedic to the
>>> classical language.
>>>
>>> Harry Spier
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk  Sat Oct 27 19:14:26 2018
From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 19:14:26 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsW1rYTC3tRaVvpaz5Dfc2Z1Yhe5gRG=-dp8by_VTnVEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR02MB321276132393F4BE1AA2F9058CF10@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Artur,


You say Draupadi's polyandry is "unexpected, devoid of precedents". It is unexpected to Drupada most particularly, since the Pandavas have been given to expect it by Vyasa a little while beforehand, and Draupadi herself takes to it very nicely. But there is apparently the precedent that Yudhishthira mentions. As you say, that the polyandry demands explanations -- and so it is given plenty of them. How are those explanations "unconvincing and weak"? In context they are strong enough to be convincing to all surprised parties, even if Karna later says she is a whore.


All the best, from Simon B.


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sat Oct 27 21:06:10 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 23:06:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR02MB321276132393F4BE1AA2F9058CF10@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFuMWMEp-TX1WfK2deshkx36sRb-BAVF5FgUm3YH9qyuFg@mail.gmail.com>

We should take care not to confuse *arguments for* with *historical
precedents*.

Since historical precedents are in this case weak, the arguments for seem
to be *ad hoc* creations, only feigning strength, just pretending to be
based on secure premises.

Karna sees through them.

And - the best, too.

Artur


2018-10-27 21:14 GMT+02:00 Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear Artur,
>
>
> You say Draupadi's polyandry is "unexpected, devoid of precedents". It is
> unexpected to Drupada most particularly, since the Pandavas have been given
> to expect it by Vyasa a little while beforehand, and Draupadi herself takes
> to it very nicely. But there is apparently the precedent that Yudhishthira
> mentions. As you say, that the polyandry demands explanations -- and so it
> is given plenty of them. How are those explanations "unconvincing and
> weak"? In context they are strong enough to be convincing to all surprised
> parties, even if Karna later says she is a whore.
>
>
> All the best, from Simon B.
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Oct 27 22:29:08 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 18 22:29:08 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Jaini's 95th birthday
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzew=88n9JX=3S6XrTO71ZMAp9Ui2HaJERGuhxbK=6XPcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR1101MB22228120DC09E425B1153CE0A1F10@MWHPR1101MB2222.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks for this, Madhav.
I was fortunate to be a student at Berkeley when Jaini arrived in 72 and have always continued to learn from his extraordinary scholarship. A revered guru!

Best,
Matthew

Matthew T. Kapstein
EPHE, Paris
The University of Chicago

________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 9:54:33 PM
To: Indology; bvparishat at googlegroups.com
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Jaini's 95th birthday

I was so fortunate to attend Professor Padmanabh Jaini's 95th birthday celebration yesterday at the University of California in Berkeley. In 1972, Jaini left Michigan for Berkeley, and I became his replacement in Michigan. He is a giant in the fields of Buddhist and Jain Studies, and it was wonderful to see the love of his students and colleagues for him.

[IMG_2027.HEIC]

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 28 01:19:07 2018
From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 01:19:07 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Jaini's 95th birthday
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR1101MB22228120DC09E425B1153CE0A1F10@MWHPR1101MB2222.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1900979906.18300491.1540689547404@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Madhav,
I second Matthew?s sentiments. I have long admired Dr. Jaini?s work and was grateful for his attendance at and wise commentary following a guest lecture I gave at Berkeley in a ?few months ago. Thank you for sharing this!
All the best,Jeffery Long


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, October 27, 2018, 6:29 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Thanks for this, Madhav.
I was fortunate to be a student at Berkeley when Jaini arrived in 72 and have always continued to learn from his extraordinary scholarship. A revered guru!

Best,
Matthew

Matthew T. Kapstein
EPHE, Paris
The University of Chicago
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 9:54:33 PM
To: Indology; bvparishat at googlegroups.com
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Jaini's 95th birthday?I was so fortunate to attend Professor Padmanabh Jaini's 95th birthday celebration yesterday at the University of California in Berkeley. In 1972, Jaini left Michigan for Berkeley, and I became his replacement in Michigan. He is a giant in the fields of Buddhist and Jain Studies, and it was wonderful to see the love of his students and colleagues for him.


Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California]_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 02:06:56 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 07:36:56 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4JNYE7J9ieQr4JnxpJX4FpkGRmJDS-3N7BfoFMYHShPyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eYXw_GV_XFL2iX1x3XEe3R-mwWgTXxavkEmVmBtsZY9aw@mail.gmail.com>

There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane, once
shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
logical fallacies.

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
> the library....
> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
> point is now rather clear...
>
> JAS
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>
>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>> .
>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to share
>> such things here.
>>
>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book Philipp
>> Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie der fr?hen
>> philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> ????? ???????
>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>> University, Japan
>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
>> Japan
>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>> Department, Australian National University
>>
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>
>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>
>>
>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>
>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>
>>    -
>>
>> Linkedin
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>
>> Edanz
>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>
>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a discussion
>>> of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard Hamblin's
>>> Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies (hetvaabhaasa) in
>>> India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a formal analysis,
>>> Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>
>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>
>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>
>>> Something like this, for example:
>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>
>>> thank you.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> ????? ???????
>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>> University, Japan
>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>
>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>
>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>> Linkedin
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>
>>> Edanz
>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>
>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>
>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 03:53:23 2018
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 09:23:23 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYXw_GV_XFL2iX1x3XEe3R-mwWgTXxavkEmVmBtsZY9aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZhJqcJExKemFPo13OnOKgtEX_UtH6iKv70qZzYKMuMRxQ@mail.gmail.com>

ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English translation.
If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala

Dear Nagaraj Paturi
The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim

On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane, once
> shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
> logical fallacies.
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
>> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
>> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
>> the library....
>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
>> point is now rather clear...
>>
>> JAS
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>
>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>> .
>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to share
>>> such things here.
>>>
>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book Philipp
>>> Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie der fr?hen
>>> philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> ????? ???????
>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>> University, Japan
>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>
>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>
>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>> Linkedin
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>
>>> Edanz
>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>
>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a discussion
>>>> of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard Hamblin's
>>>> Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies (hetvaabhaasa) in
>>>> India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a formal analysis,
>>>> Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>
>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>
>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>
>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>
>>>> thank you.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> ????? ???????
>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>> University, Japan
>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>
>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>
>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>
>>>>    -
>>>>
>>>> Linkedin
>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>
>>>> Edanz
>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>
>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>
>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> J. Silk
>> Leiden University
>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> copies of my publications may be found at
>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 04:18:09 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 09:48:09 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZhJqcJExKemFPo13OnOKgtEX_UtH6iKv70qZzYKMuMRxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebzAaRy0yBuKHHYN4aQLEhhkijn9ZS2hgG_PamF4u=O+w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for enlightening.

If I thought, Logical fallacy = nyaya , I would not have said .'some of
these are expressed as nyayas.

English translation maxim for nyaya ,

logical fallacy for hetvaabhaasaa

themselves have their inaccuracies.



On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:24 AM Krishnaprasad G <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English translation.
> If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala
>
> Dear Nagaraj Paturi
> The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
> Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim
>
> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane,
>> once shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
>> logical fallacies.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
>>> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
>>> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
>>> the library....
>>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
>>> point is now rather clear...
>>>
>>> JAS
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>>
>>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>>> .
>>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to share
>>>> such things here.
>>>>
>>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book
>>>> Philipp Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie
>>>> der fr?hen philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> ????? ???????
>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>> University, Japan
>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>
>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>
>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>
>>>>    -
>>>>
>>>> Linkedin
>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>
>>>> Edanz
>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>
>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a
>>>>> discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard
>>>>> Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies
>>>>> (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a
>>>>> formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>>
>>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>>> University, Japan
>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>
>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>
>>>>>    -
>>>>>
>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>
>>>>> Edanz
>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>
>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>>
>>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> J. Silk
>>> Leiden University
>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>> The Netherlands
>>>
>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 04:32:05 2018
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 10:02:05 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebzAaRy0yBuKHHYN4aQLEhhkijn9ZS2hgG_PamF4u=O+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZhLqnuX70SBmJ0R_u18iYQwv2uU7qGZ1u1tOEqdx5f75w@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry
I was unaware that you are already aware and still mailing.

On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 9:48 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for enlightening.
>
> If I thought, Logical fallacy = nyaya , I would not have said .'some of
> these are expressed as nyayas.
>
> English translation maxim for nyaya ,
>
> logical fallacy for hetvaabhaasaa
>
> themselves have their inaccuracies.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:24 AM Krishnaprasad G <
> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English translation.
>> If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala
>>
>> Dear Nagaraj Paturi
>> The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
>> Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim
>>
>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane,
>>> once shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
>>> logical fallacies.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
>>>> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
>>>> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
>>>> the library....
>>>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>>>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>>>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>>>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
>>>> point is now rather clear...
>>>>
>>>> JAS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>>>
>>>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>>>> .
>>>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to
>>>>> share such things here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book
>>>>> Philipp Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie
>>>>> der fr?hen philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>>> University, Japan
>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>
>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>
>>>>>    -
>>>>>
>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>
>>>>> Edanz
>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>
>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a
>>>>>> discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard
>>>>>> Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies
>>>>>> (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a
>>>>>> formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>>>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>>>> University, Japan
>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> J. Silk
>>>> Leiden University
>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>
>>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 04:36:41 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 10:06:41 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZhLqnuX70SBmJ0R_u18iYQwv2uU7qGZ1u1tOEqdx5f75w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eY3uLjgRjCZ1D_8Cksr5H3JbF=5P6H1Av+eFzdzzOosaA@mail.gmail.com>

Please never mind.

I take logical fallacies with a pinch of salt.

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:03 AM Krishnaprasad G <
krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry
> I was unaware that you are already aware and still mailing.
>
> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 9:48 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for enlightening.
>>
>> If I thought, Logical fallacy = nyaya , I would not have said .'some of
>> these are expressed as nyayas.
>>
>> English translation maxim for nyaya ,
>>
>> logical fallacy for hetvaabhaasaa
>>
>> themselves have their inaccuracies.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:24 AM Krishnaprasad G <
>> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English translation.
>>> If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala
>>>
>>> Dear Nagaraj Paturi
>>> The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
>>> Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim
>>>
>>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane,
>>>> once shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
>>>> logical fallacies.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
>>>>> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
>>>>> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
>>>>> the library....
>>>>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>>>>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>>>>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>>>>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
>>>>> point is now rather clear...
>>>>>
>>>>> JAS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to
>>>>>> share such things here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book
>>>>>> Philipp Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie
>>>>>> der fr?hen philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>>>> University, Japan
>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY
>>>>>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a
>>>>>>> discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard
>>>>>>> Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies
>>>>>>> (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a
>>>>>>> formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>>>>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thank you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>>>>> University, Japan
>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> J. Silk
>>>>> Leiden University
>>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>>
>>>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>
>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>
>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 04:37:59 2018
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 10:07:59 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eY3uLjgRjCZ1D_8Cksr5H3JbF=5P6H1Av+eFzdzzOosaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZi5JfMfcQ8yYXvKOdjs9cwXJx+AigUQ7bOUYQUtqbrkeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Haha, thanks! Such a great open minded sochkar you are. PraNaams

On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 10:07 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Please never mind.
>
> I take logical fallacies with a pinch of salt.
>
> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:03 AM Krishnaprasad G <
> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry
>> I was unaware that you are already aware and still mailing.
>>
>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 9:48 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for enlightening.
>>>
>>> If I thought, Logical fallacy = nyaya , I would not have said .'some of
>>> these are expressed as nyayas.
>>>
>>> English translation maxim for nyaya ,
>>>
>>> logical fallacy for hetvaabhaasaa
>>>
>>> themselves have their inaccuracies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:24 AM Krishnaprasad G <
>>> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English translation.
>>>> If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala
>>>>
>>>> Dear Nagaraj Paturi
>>>> The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
>>>> Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim
>>>>
>>>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane,
>>>>> once shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
>>>>> logical fallacies.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
>>>>>> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
>>>>>> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
>>>>>> the library....
>>>>>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>>>>>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>>>>>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>>>>>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think
>>>>>> the point is now rather clear...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JAS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to
>>>>>>> share such things here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book
>>>>>>> Philipp Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie
>>>>>>> der fr?hen philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna
>>>>>>> 2006.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>>>>>> University, Japan
>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a
>>>>>>>> discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard
>>>>>>>> Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies
>>>>>>>> (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a
>>>>>>>> formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>>>>>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>>>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies,
>>>>>>>> Kyoto University, Japan
>>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>>>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>>>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> J. Silk
>>>>>> Leiden University
>>>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>>>
>>>>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 04:39:30 2018
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 10:09:30 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZi5JfMfcQ8yYXvKOdjs9cwXJx+AigUQ7bOUYQUtqbrkeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZg4YKO7pyn6a7+0gcAy7Jgu8i-3y+etB4H=rggKVtZSqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ha ha Thanks ! Such a great open minded Scholar you are in whole India
Pranaams

On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 10:07 AM Krishnaprasad G, <krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Haha, thanks! Such a great open minded sochkar you are. PraNaams
>
> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 10:07 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Please never mind.
>>
>> I take logical fallacies with a pinch of salt.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:03 AM Krishnaprasad G <
>> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry
>>> I was unaware that you are already aware and still mailing.
>>>
>>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 9:48 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for enlightening.
>>>>
>>>> If I thought, Logical fallacy = nyaya , I would not have said .'some of
>>>> these are expressed as nyayas.
>>>>
>>>> English translation maxim for nyaya ,
>>>>
>>>> logical fallacy for hetvaabhaasaa
>>>>
>>>> themselves have their inaccuracies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:24 AM Krishnaprasad G <
>>>> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English
>>>>> translation.
>>>>> If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>> The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
>>>>> Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V Kane,
>>>>>> once shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas concern
>>>>>> logical fallacies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things
>>>>>>> called printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not
>>>>>>> two, but actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to
>>>>>>> go to the library....
>>>>>>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>>>>>>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>>>>>>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>>>>>>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think
>>>>>>> the point is now rather clear...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JAS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>>>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to
>>>>>>>> share such things here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book
>>>>>>>> Philipp Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie
>>>>>>>> der fr?hen philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna
>>>>>>>> 2006.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies,
>>>>>>>> Kyoto University, Japan
>>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a
>>>>>>>>> discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard
>>>>>>>>> Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies
>>>>>>>>> (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a
>>>>>>>>> formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies
>>>>>>>>> and their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>>>>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> thank you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies,
>>>>>>>>> Kyoto University, Japan
>>>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>>>>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>>>>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> J. Silk
>>>>>>> Leiden University
>>>>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>>>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>>>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>>>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>
>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>
>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 04:42:39 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 10:12:39 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAODNnZg4YKO7pyn6a7+0gcAy7Jgu8i-3y+etB4H=rggKVtZSqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZn80-MCcU_BNfqtL6Bn80XfyNgqeP9pD3rBMDtgvkCdg@mail.gmail.com>

Haha, thanks!

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:10 AM Krishnaprasad G <
krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ha ha Thanks ! Such a great open minded Scholar you are in whole India
> Pranaams
>
> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 10:07 AM Krishnaprasad G, <
> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Haha, thanks! Such a great open minded sochkar you are. PraNaams
>>
>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 10:07 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Please never mind.
>>>
>>> I take logical fallacies with a pinch of salt.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:03 AM Krishnaprasad G <
>>> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry
>>>> I was unaware that you are already aware and still mailing.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 9:48 AM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for enlightening.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I thought, Logical fallacy = nyaya , I would not have said .'some
>>>>> of these are expressed as nyayas.
>>>>>
>>>>> English translation maxim for nyaya ,
>>>>>
>>>>> logical fallacy for hetvaabhaasaa
>>>>>
>>>>> themselves have their inaccuracies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 9:24 AM Krishnaprasad G <
>>>>> krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ManikaNa published by Adyar has all hetvabhaasa has English
>>>>>> translation.
>>>>>> If not, please check, Indian Logic by D C Guha Publish Motilala
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>> The earlier mails by you is nothing to do with Logical fallacy.
>>>>>> Hetvabhasa is different thank Maxim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun 28 Oct, 2018, 8:52 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a book (a part of a book ) purvamimamsa nyayas  by P V
>>>>>>> Kane, once shared by Sri Ajit Gargeswari on BVP list. Some of the nyayas
>>>>>>> concern logical fallacies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:21 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things
>>>>>>>> called printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not
>>>>>>>> two, but actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to
>>>>>>>> go to the library....
>>>>>>>> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
>>>>>>>> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
>>>>>>>> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
>>>>>>>> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think
>>>>>>>> the point is now rather clear...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JAS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>>>>>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to
>>>>>>>>> share such things here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book
>>>>>>>>> Philipp Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie
>>>>>>>>> der fr?hen philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna
>>>>>>>>> 2006.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies,
>>>>>>>>> Kyoto University, Japan
>>>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a
>>>>>>>>>> discussion of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard
>>>>>>>>>> Hamblin's Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies
>>>>>>>>>> (hetvaabhaasa) in India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a
>>>>>>>>>> formal analysis, Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies
>>>>>>>>>> and their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Something like this, for example:
>>>>>>>>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thank you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ????? ???????
>>>>>>>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>>>>>>>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies,
>>>>>>>>>> Kyoto University, Japan
>>>>>>>>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>>>>>>>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>>>>>>>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>>>>>>>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>>>>>>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Linkedin
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Edanz
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>>>>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>>>>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>>>>>>>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>>>>>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>>>>>>>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> J. Silk
>>>>>>>> Leiden University
>>>>>>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>>>>>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>>>>>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>>>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>>>>>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 06:31:28 2018
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 15:31:28 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] logical fallacies
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4JNYE7J9ieQr4JnxpJX4FpkGRmJDS-3N7BfoFMYHShPyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrDjsJgOsi4qBswyWfzQaFQy-FHx9d99PJ84Qj8EfJeCnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Jonathan, for being rather clear; and, as you say, 'old fashioned'.
It would help if I were currently in any of those three locations to access
these books. This might explain the current search for a digital copy. Had
someone not already sent me a copy of not one volume, not two volumes, but
all three volumes, I probably won't have to worry about those things called
printed books.

All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University

Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)


Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>

Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>

   -

Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>

Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>

Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>





On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:50 AM Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps I am simply old-fashioned, but, ahem, there are things called
> printed books, and ... Kyoto University library owns not one, not two, but
> actually three sets of the Oberhammer books. So if you are able to go to
> the library....
> https://kuline.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=v3search_view_main_init&block_id=286&tab_num=0&op_param=srhRevTagFlg%3Dtrue%26words%3DG.%2520Oberhammer%2520et%2520al.%252C%2520Terminologie%2520der%2520fr%25C3%25BChen%2520philosophsichen%2520Scholastik%2520in%2520Indien#catdbl-TY86149825
> At least the first two volumes are in ANU:
> http://library.anu.edu.au/record=b1802210
> and I suppose that the volumes must also be in Nagoya, but I think the
> point is now rather clear...
>
> JAS
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Brendan.
>>
>> I found Pandeya's book on archive
>> <https://archive.org/details/MajorHetvabhasasAFormalAnalysisDr.RaghavendraPandeya>
>> .
>> Hamblin's book is on a server but I don't think we are allowed to share
>> such things here.
>>
>> I am having more trouble finding an electronic copy of this book Philipp
>> Maas kindly suggested by G. Oberhammer et al., *Terminologie der fr?hen
>> philosophsichen Scholastik in Indien*. Vol 3. Vienna 2006.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> ????? ???????
>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>> University, Japan
>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
>> Japan
>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>> Department, Australian National University
>>
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>
>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>
>>
>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>
>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>
>>    -
>>
>> Linkedin
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>
>> Edanz
>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>
>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:33 PM Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> The classic contemporary work on fallacies, which includes a discussion
>>> of fallacies in the Indian tradition, is Charles Leonard Hamblin's
>>> Fallacies, Methuen, 1970. A work exclusively on fallacies (hetvaabhaasa) in
>>> India is Raghavendra Pandeya's Major Hetvaabhaasas, a formal analysis,
>>> Eastern Book Linkers.
>>>
>>> Brendan Gillon
>>>
>>> On 2018-10-27 05:10 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Does anyone have a list of Sanskrit terms for logical fallacies and
>>> their equivalent in English and/or Latin?
>>>
>>> Something like this, for example:
>>> vyakti prati yukti argumentum ad hominem
>>>
>>> thank you.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> ????? ???????
>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>>> JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
>>> University, Japan
>>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute,
>>> Nagoya, Japan
>>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies
>>> Department, Australian National University
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>>>
>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>
>>>
>>> Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>> Linkedin
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>>
>>> Edanz
>>> <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>
>>>
>>> Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Brendan S. Gillon                       email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
>>> 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>> Montreal, Quebec                        fax.:  001 514 398 7088
>>> H3A 1A7  CANADA
>>>
>>> webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>


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From hellwig7 at gmx.de  Sun Oct 28 08:45:10 2018
From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 09:45:10 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6346.1540689833.9722.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <4e6cc77d-3c1b-0371-f527-e2e42be5bfb7@gmx.de>

Dear all,

just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep and 
others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks digesting 
all kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based 
on them) seems to suggest that we can distinguish temporal strata in the 
Mbh. A detail study of the Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not 
too far away from some outcomes of philological research:
 ?* BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries CE 
(rather 200 CE++)
 ?* Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE

Best, Oliver

---
Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf, IVS Z?rich





From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Sun Oct 28 09:21:37 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 09:21:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Asian Literature and Translation
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B91FF4@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear list members
It is a pleasure to announce the publication of Volume 5/1 (2018) of the internet journal Asian Literature and Translation (https://alt.cardiffuniversitypress.org/)https://alt.cardiffuniversitypress.org/

Sanskritists may be interested in the following three articles:

Demot Killingley, Edwin Arnold's Translation of the Hitopade?a

Giuliano Giustarini, A Translation of the Nakulapit?sutta and its Commentaries

and Moving To and Fro between Alak? and R?magiri in K?lid?sa's Meghad?ta

by myself.

Best wishes,
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Oct 28 10:51:51 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 11:51:51 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
In-Reply-To: <4e6cc77d-3c1b-0371-f527-e2e42be5bfb7@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFsMC7F6DNGrAUWkh96hLd+fXE4rRZgLQPm1AU3kqA3hEw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Oliver,

As a retiree of - already - some seniority, I have difficulty in ingesting
phraseological solids, such as <<neural networks digesting all kinds of
linguistic features and making temporal predictions based on them>>.

Could you please explain what hides behind these scholarly terms?

Regards,

Artur


2018-10-28 9:45 GMT+01:00 Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear all,
>
> just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep and
> others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks digesting all
> kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based on them)
> seems to suggest that we can distinguish temporal strata in the Mbh. A
> detail study of the Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not too far
> away from some outcomes of philological research:
>  * BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries CE
> (rather 200 CE++)
>  * Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> ---
> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf, IVS Z?rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hellwig7 at gmx.de  Sun Oct 28 12:09:32 2018
From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 13:09:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsMC7F6DNGrAUWkh96hLd+fXE4rRZgLQPm1AU3kqA3hEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9b0c2d9-5afc-25c0-46d9-420e07699d15@gmx.de>

Dear Arthur,

one possible explanation runs as follows:

(1) Linguistic features: Every text from the DCS is split into sections 
of equal sizes (say 100 lines). Frequencies of approx. 1,000 linguistic 
features such as the accusative, certain Sandhi, metre, ... are counted 
in each of these sections.

(2) Dates: I collect approximate dates for each text from secondary 
literature. They include "exact" ones, as for some texts after 1000 CE, 
as well as quite wide temporal ranges for Puranas (and almost all the 
rest of Sanskrit literature).

(3) Now, I use a mathematical model (neural networks) that tries to 
predict the approximate dates (2) on the basis of the feature 
frequencies (1). Basically the same as is done, for instance, for 
weather forecasting: Collect some information about the weather of 
today, and try to predict the temperature in the next 24 hrs.

The uncertainties arising from (2) are hopefully handled in a follow-up 
of the follow-up, which I am currently working on.

Best, Oliver


On 28/10/2018 11:51, Artur Karp wrote:
> Dear Oliver,
>
> As a retiree of - already - some seniority, I have difficulty in 
> ingesting phraseological solids, such as <<neural networks digesting 
> all kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based 
> on them>>.
>
> Could you please explain what hides behind these scholarly terms?
>
> Regards,
>
> Artur
>
>
> 2018-10-28 9:45 GMT+01:00 Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
>
>     Dear all,
>
>     just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep
>     and others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks
>     digesting all kinds of linguistic features and making temporal
>     predictions based on them) seems to suggest that we can
>     distinguish temporal strata in the Mbh. A detail study of the
>     Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not too far away from some
>     outcomes of philological research:
>     ?* BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries
>     CE (rather 200 CE++)
>     ?* Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE
>
>     Best, Oliver
>
>     ---
>     Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf, IVS Z?rich
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Oct 28 13:26:47 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 06:26:47 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdr8nEWoMMiprJm32VHQh012qCk1T9MDXXsVNE2DEkUbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

????: ?????: ????? ? ?????? ??????? ?
????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ? ????????? ??????
O Krishna, a chariot driver has not been seen in the world, such that the
chariot does not go anywhere leaving his feet.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From karp at uw.edu.pl  Sun Oct 28 16:55:33 2018
From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 17:55:33 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd:  Mbh stratification
In-Reply-To: <CALNcvFsNstUgqy3jdvAxJ_BjLgL-X1-XsztEEVz2vDCk1SAhdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALNcvFt5jNKUJx2_=jbawXghp9WFZ2ZnmLKaEZYAxJhRxHbEow@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
Date: 2018-10-28 17:50 GMT+01:00
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
To: "McGrath, Kevin" <kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu>


I, quite to the contrary, am not convinced.

While determining the sequence of the epic's strata, I would instead search
for the mentions (direct or indirect) for the datable indicators of
material development. Such as networks of roads, novel technical and
architectural solutions (among them the Buddhist and the Jaina forms), use
of metals (especially iron), the introduction of new, non-native plant and
animal species.

Datable - because known well to archaeology.

I would also search for the mentions of uncharacteristic relations linking
people belonging to different communities/social strata. Such as 'mixed'
marriages and the appearance of the new type of heroes (as Astika) willing
to serve as mediators between the 'human' and the 'demonic' peoples. Which,
indeed, would place them in the later strata of the text.





2018-10-28 13:32 GMT+01:00 McGrath, Kevin <kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu>:

>
>  Dear Oliver,
>
>
> This is most interesting and I look forward to reading your MBh. essay in
> IIJ.
>
>
> The problem is with "2", it would seem, and the grounds for consistent
> inference which these various 'secondary literatures' employ.
>
>
> Relating "1" with "2" must be so tentative, no?
>
>
> Ideally on should use the primary text, in this case the MBh., as a source
> of dating.
>
>
> Anyway, let me read your essay now ...
>
> Thanks, and with very best wishes, from,
>
>
>   Kevin.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 28, 2018 8:09 AM
> *To:* Artur Karp
> *Cc:* indology
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
>
>
> Dear Arthur,
>
> one possible explanation runs as follows:
>
> (1) Linguistic features: Every text from the DCS is split into sections of
> equal sizes (say 100 lines). Frequencies of approx. 1,000 linguistic
> features such as the accusative, certain Sandhi, metre, ... are counted in
> each of these sections.
>
> (2) Dates: I collect approximate dates for each text from secondary
> literature. They include "exact" ones, as for some texts after 1000 CE, as
> well as quite wide temporal ranges for Puranas (and almost all the rest of
> Sanskrit literature).
>
> (3) Now, I use a mathematical model (neural networks) that tries to
> predict the approximate dates (2) on the basis of the feature frequencies
> (1). Basically the same as is done, for instance, for weather forecasting:
> Collect some information about the weather of today, and try to predict the
> temperature in the next 24 hrs.
>
> The uncertainties arising from (2) are hopefully handled in a follow-up of
> the follow-up, which I am currently working on.
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> On 28/10/2018 11:51, Artur Karp wrote:
>
> Dear Oliver,
>
> As a retiree of - already - some seniority, I have difficulty in ingesting
> phraseological solids, such as <<neural networks digesting all kinds of
> linguistic features and making temporal predictions based on them>>.
>
> Could you please explain what hides behind these scholarly terms?
>
> Regards,
>
> Artur
>
>
> 2018-10-28 9:45 GMT+01:00 Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
> Dear all,
>
> just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep and
> others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks digesting all
> kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based on them)
> seems to suggest that we can distinguish temporal strata in the Mbh. A
> detail study of the Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not too far
> away from some outcomes of philological research:
>  * BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries CE
> (rather 200 CE++)
>  * Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> ---
> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf, IVS Z?rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listinfo.indology.info&d=DwMDaQ&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=-rSViEkizAtPgNXOsdcFqntk_9Seik5EdKrDK00t28U&m=VZwzOVpmkkwy-3YSX_499tk1rLqYHy02SjFD3iL-PjY&s=oDvqEd6Yd3g-v36-w16pfS43R1-sbCY1Wy2YjYl_IUI&e=>
> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>


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From sravana.varma at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 17:57:39 2018
From: sravana.varma at gmail.com (Sravana Borkataky-Varma)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 12:57:39 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Search for a Text
Message-ID: <CA+826e-ZnOhAWSRV4K4T6s+nM9Psokc-oda7eVeCK1bh2unH7A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

Looking for a copy of the text *K?mr? b?j?k?a* or *The K?mar?pa Seed
Syllables*. PDF or leads will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Best
-- 
Dr. Sravana Borkataky-Varma
*Visiting Faculty *
University of North Carolina Wilmington & University of Montana
*Instructor *
Susanne M. Glasscock School of Continuing Studies, Rice University &
The Women's Institute of Houston

Co-Chair, American Academy of Religion, Yoga in Theory and Practice
https://rice.academia.edu/SravanaBorkatakyVarma


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Sun Oct 28 18:28:29 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 18:28:29 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Search for a Text
In-Reply-To: <CA+826e-ZnOhAWSRV4K4T6s+nM9Psokc-oda7eVeCK1bh2unH7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181028193004.e80c3ae09c6e1e786e2fc1e3@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Sravana,

I do not think that there is any Indian (Sanskrit) text with this title available to us.

'K?mr? b?j?k?a' is a title reconstructed by Carl Ernst from the Persian translation of this text. See his paper:

'Being Careful with the Goddess: Yoginis in Persian and Arabic Texts'
in Pallabi Chakravorty and Scott Kugle (eds.), Performing Ecstasy: The Poetics and Politics of Religion in India, New Delhi: Manohar, 2009, pp. 189?203.

Kazuyo Sakaki disputed this reconstruction and she offered different reading of the Persian title: K?mar?papa?c??ik?. See her paper:
'Yogico-tantric Traditions in the ?awd al-?ay?t', Journal of the Japanese Association for South Asian Studies, 17 (2005): 135?156 (p. 138).

Best,
Lubomir



On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 12:57:39 -0500
Sravana Borkataky-Varma via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Looking for a copy of the text *K?mr? b?j?k?a* or *The K?mar?pa Seed
> Syllables*. PDF or leads will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Best
> -- 
> Dr. Sravana Borkataky-Varma
> *Visiting Faculty *
> University of North Carolina Wilmington & University of Montana
> *Instructor *
> Susanne M. Glasscock School of Continuing Studies, Rice University &
> The Women's Institute of Houston
> 
> Co-Chair, American Academy of Religion, Yoga in Theory and Practice
> https://rice.academia.edu/SravanaBorkatakyVarma




From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 18:53:01 2018
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 18 00:23:01 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Confirmation of unpublished Nyaya works
Message-ID: <CADSGPzW8-Adc3gwYQ2ZupokPCzYW4Ya1h0EiAFK6EAUJ6Tr3UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
We are currently in process of identifying potentially unpublished
manuscripts in Chunilal Gandhi Vidyabhavan, Surat (
http://www.cgvidyabhavan.org/), so that in future some scholars can do work
thereon.

The process hitherto has been very crude.
We checked on google whether the work has any digital copy available or
not. The works which have not been traced on google have been noted
herewith.
I would request the scholars to help us with two items.

1. Kindly refer me to some works which have bibliographical details about
works published in the field of Nyaya or Vaisheshika.
2. Go through the list and let me know if any of these works are published.
A link to digital copy, reference to some bibliography where its
publication is mentioned or link to purchaseable copy would be welcome.

Accession Number  - Work - Author
838    ????????????????
948    ????????????????
126    ??????????????????????    ???????? ?????????
949    ????????????????????    ?????? ??????????
951    ??????????????    ?????? ??????????
752    ????????????    ???????? ??????
131    ??????????????    ??????
840    ???-????????????    ?????? ?????????
687    ???-?????
245    ??????????????    ??????
543    ??????????????    ?????? ?????????
669    ????????????    ????? ?????????????
566    ???    ????????
43    ?????????????    ?????????????
688    ?????????????
841    ????????????????
553A    ??????    ????? ????
553B    ?????? (?)
37    ????????    ??????????
679    ???????    ?????
671    ??????????    ?????? ??????????????
674    ?????????????
677    ????????????????????????
1364    ????????????????    ????????
31    ??????????    ???????? ?????????
538    ??????????????    ????? ??????????
540    ???????????    ?????? ???????????
675    ??????????????????    ?????? ?????????????
690    ???????????????
1054    ???????????????    ????????????
655    ???????????????    ????????
913    ????????????    ????????
34+36    ?????????????????    ???????? ??????
517    ?????????????????????????? (??????????)    ???????? ???????
518    ?????????????????????????? (?????????????)    ???????? ???????
848    ?????????????????????????? (?????????????)    ???????? ???????
1404    ?????????????????????????    ??????
669A    ????????????????    ??????????
678    ?????????????????    ?????? ??????????
412    ??????????    ????? ????????????
1409-1410    ??????????    ?????
1411    ?????????????
242A    ??????????
392    ??????????    ???????? ??????????
324    ????????????????    ???????
689    ??????????????????    ????????? ????????
571    ??????????    ????? ????
241    ??????????????
242    ?????????????????????    ???????? ???????? ???????
1460    ??????????????????    ??????????????? ??????????
127    ????????????????    ?????? ?????
542    ??????????    ???????? ???????
575    ??????????    ???????? ???????
539    ??????????    ???????? ???????
634    ?????????????    ???????? ???????
573    ??????????????????????
129    ????????????????????    ??????? ??????
520    ????????????????????    ??????? ??????
1529    ????????????????????    ??????? ??????
911    ?????????????????    ??????
839    ??????????    ???
46    ???????    ??????
128    ???????    ?????
519    ?????????    ??????
683    ?????????
1561    ????????????????????????
1228    ???????????????????????????????
572    ?????????????????
83    ?????????????    ?????


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in

<https://www.avast.com/en-in/recommend?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=default3&tag=9ce30a2e-8efe-4469-a69c-e1bda09c7ef7>
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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 19:20:46 2018
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 18 00:50:46 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29uZmlybWF0aW9uIG9mIHVucHVibGlzaGVkIE55YXlhIHdvcmtz?=
In-Reply-To: <1135476068.15850605.1540753482693@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVgGJ=DEtvmWe-PQxOZ1_TRjzcOi=-ysSvSaCo=7XQehg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Shankara Ji.
It indeed is the same work. I confirmed with the manuscript.
The published book title has 'Nilakantha Dikshita', but the inside text has
'Shrikantha Dikshita'.
https://archive.org/details/NyayaSiddhantaManjariJanakiNathBruhatTarkaPrakasaAbidhaNilakantha/page/n181.
So this is the same work as in Manuscript.


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 20:57:24 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 21:57:24 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
In-Reply-To: <70d3d97d-c2de-1ffa-497d-b116a27545fa@yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoCjMEuFkyh+syYN8Z5-B+nL0EjJSx4ui2tG_JTHMJCbAA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Shyam Ranganathan,
This is a legitimate question, which merits an adequate response.
My "two cents":
You may already have looked at the bibliographical article ?German
Indology? by Joydeep Bagchee (JB) (Oxford Bibliographies online:
www.oxfordbibliographies.com under ?German Indology? or:
www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml
)
Since, as I pointed out elsewhere, ?Indology was more or less since its
beginnings, end 18th ? beginning 19th century, mainly ?European? in
character with intensive cooperations between French, British and German
specialists, and has thus not only been sharing Oriental dreams but also a
Nazi-nightmare,? the focus on ?German Indology? in JB?s article is itself
problematic, especially because the author justifies it by invoking ?a
distinct history and traditions? for German Indology, and ?unique concerns
that set it apart from other forms of research into India? (?German
Indology?, section ?Introduction?). Given this and other peculiar premises,
the article contains nevertheless useful bibliographic references and brief
evaluations (from the author?s point of view) of relevant publications,
especially ? for your subject ? in two sections of the article: ?National
Socialism? (topic: German Indology and National Socialism) and ?German
Responses to National Socialist Indology.? Another relevant section is
?Orientalism Debate? which, in the view of the author (JB), as he expresses
it in his evaluation of Halbfass?s India and Europe (1988), really starts
with the publication of ?Pollock 1993? (see above). It is hence regrettable
but not entirely surprising that the collective volume Beyond Orientalism
(1997) is regarded by JB as a work which ?does not directly address the
orientalist debate; it is really an overview of Halbfass?s work as a
post-orientalist scholar.? In this section a reference is lacking to my
review of this work which discusses and demonstrates how the work and in
particular Halbfass?s dialogical contributions to it are indeed directly
relevant to the ?Orientalism Debate? (?Orientalism, its critique, and
beyond: review article of Beyond Orientalism, ed. by K. Preisendanz and E.
Franco, Amsterdam 1997? (15 [1998]: 16) IIAS-Newsletter : Newsletter of the
International Institute for Asian Studies (Leiden), no. 15. 1998 :
https://www.academia.edu/6169112). With regard to Halbfass?s unsurpassed
India and Europe (1988), the author (JB) thinks that it ?needs revision in
light of newer discoveries? but fails to point out that several currently
self-styled ?new discoveries? need, in fact, also revision in the light of
Halbfass?s monumental achievement in comparative philosophy which is
exceptionally well-founded both in ?Western? and in Indian philosophy.
I have in the meantime also updated my almost antique "conference report"
(of the 29th DOT of the DMG in Leipzig, 1995)
www.academia.edu/7378413
with two "Further Postscripts", the second of which containing a brief *compte
rendu* of VA&JB's *The Nay Science* in which I address two "key-problems"
that remain in this work, a heavy ?stone in the pond? of Indology and Asian
Studies, in spite of the large number of reviews and rejoinders that have
already appeared, and propose two "keys" to solve them.
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 18:26, Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>
> I recall that in *India and Europe,* Halbfass discusses the development
> of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest
> in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm
> trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe
> (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was
> treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point
> to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was
> something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shyam
>
>
> --
>
> Shyam Ranganathan
>
> Department of Philosophy
>
> York Center for Asian Research
> York University, Toronto
>
>
>
> shyam-ranganathan.info  <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>
>
>
>
> *Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation
> <https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>*
>
>
>
> *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics
> <http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>*
>
>
>
> *Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras
> <http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>* (Translation,
> Edition and Commentary)
>
>
>
> *Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin
> Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>*
>
>
>
> Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 21:13:34 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 22:13:34 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR02MB321216B5257DE9DA9574B6058CF70@HE1PR02MB3212.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoA__WU5bOcKEJHZw8YBsC1+nkD83pZLCuGkJ+RQQuSoHA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All, "Thanks a lot" "Merci infiniment" "Dzi?kuj? bardzo" and "????
???????" for sharing your information, references and viewpoints on- and
off-list.
I am particularly happy to have the very precise and useful textual
references of Simon Brodbeck.
Your reading and citations seem to confirm that polyandry was
contemporaneously indeed experienced as something "excessively" or "too"
innovative.
(To me this neither implies nor excludes layers in the text: an author may
in a single design adopt a different, traditional style for "battle scenes"
and compose a different style epic poetry for other passages; again, unless
the epic is inscribed and well-preserved in rock, we cannot be sure whether
successive author-transmitters may have overlaid an old blue-print with new
ones.)
I also thank Matthew and Asko for their useful references off-list to
practices in Himalayan societies (but attested only from the late first
millennium) and to Iran,
and esp. for the reference to
A. Parpola ?Panda?ee and Siitaa: On the historical background of the
Sanskrit epics?, JAOS 122 (2), 361-373, and
A. Parpola  ?The Roots of Hinduism? (OUP 2015), p. 148-149
which I have started to re-read.
Not everything needs to be explained through direct contact and exchange,
but I recently came across another (possible) link between Iran and
Himalayan societies in the study of Tibetologist and Bonpo specialist Henk
Blezer et al. "Where to look for the origins of Zhang-Zhung related
scripts" Journal of the International Association of Bon Research Vol. 1
(2013): 99-174, according to which one of the places where representatives
of Zhang-Zhung ritual and religion imagine their pre-Buddhist origin is "to
the west", more precisely "Ta zig" (cp. Tajik-istan) i.e. prob. ancient
"Greater" Persia.  A structuralist or even a psychoanalytic interpretation
of epic passages need not exclude an interpretation in terms of references
to "ethnic" realities contemporaneous to the authors and first transmitters
of a text, and neither the formation of "linguistic communities" nor the
formation of "ethnic communities" necessarily depends (exclusively) on
genes (which also means that current hunter-gatherers or nomads need not be
racially "the same" as the hunter-gatherers or nomads of 2000 or 3000 years
ago -- this seems to be either forgotten or insufficiently highlighted in
current genetic studies).
Jan Houben

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 13:52, Simon Brodbeck via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Professor Houben,
>
>
>
> In this connection there is a book by Sarva Daman Singh entitled *Polyandry
> in Ancient India* (Motilal Banarsidass, 1978). There are also some
> enthological comments on the last few pages of A. N. Jani?s paper
> (?Socio-Moral Implications of Draupadi?s Marriage to Five Husbands?) in
> Bimal Krishna Matilal, ed., *Moral Dilemmas in the Mahabharata* (Indian
> Institute of Advanced Study / Motilal Banarsidass, 1989).
>
>
>
> After the Pandavas have already decided they will all marry Draupadi, the
> link from this particular polyandric marriage to other such marriages is
> apparently made by Yudhishthira, in amongst a battery of other explanations
> for it, when he addresses Drupada at Mbh 1.187.28cd: *pUrveSAm
> AnupUrvyeNa yAtaM vartmAnuyAmahe* (?We follow one after the other the
> path that was travelled by the Ancient?, trans. van Buitenen). In context
> this is a general comment on what one can do given the subtlety of *
> dharma*: the previous line reads *sUkSmo dharmo mahArAja nAsya vidmo
> vayaM gatim* (?The law is subtle, great king, and we do not know its
> course?). But the comment can be taken to imply polyandric precedents.
> Drupada seems to deny that there are precedents (or at least respectable
> ones) when he says to Vyasa: *na cApy AcaritaH pUrvair ayaM dharmo
> mahAtmabhiH* (?Nor has this Law been practiced by the Ancient of great
> spirits?, Mbh 1.188.8ab). But Yudhishthira then gives the example (*zrUyate
> hi purANe 'pi*) of Jatila Gautami who ?lay with the Seven Seers? (Mbh
> 1.188.14). Jatila as Draupadi?s precursor in this regard is mentioned also
> by the women of Hastinapura at Mbh 12.39.5. But this precursor is evidently
> in the realm of distant mythology, not the realm of contemporaneous
> practice.
>
>
>
> Simon Brodbeck
>
> Cardiff University
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On Behalf
> Of *Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
> *Sent:* 24 October 2018 21:59
> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Draupadii and polyandry
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> According to the Vedic Index of A.A. Macdonell and A.B. Keith, vol. I p.
> 479, "polyandry is not Vedic" (with obligatory references to extremely
> sporadic exceptions such as in the RV "wedding hymn"). Then in the
> Mahabharata there is suddenly the major character of Draupadii/Krsnaa
> marrying all five Pandava brothers. I am aware of the two volumes of Alf
> Hiltebeitel which are an excellent ethnographic study of the Draupadii cult
> in South India. However, what are currently the most important philological
> studies of the background of this character and of polyandry itself in late
> Vedic, post Vedic and epic/Puranic texts? Apart from purely/mainly
> structuralist approaches (Biardeau), I would be interested in explorations
> of whether the problematic presence of polyandry in the Mahabharata and
> elsewhere may imply a reference to contemporaneous (Mahabharata time)
> practices (just as the reference to Nagas burnt in the Khandava forest was
> taken as more than just an element needed in the narrative: it would also
> have been a reference to forest tribes and conflicting modes of resource
> use acc. to Irawati Karve and to Gadgil & Guha).
>
> With best regards,
>
> Jan Houben
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 23:39:13 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 18 19:39:13 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
In-Reply-To: <4e6cc77d-3c1b-0371-f527-e2e42be5bfb7@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQGvgAYXg6iXayf3ChcXNMXCVpk_Ek4eS6XptDHSZDe4Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Is the relative frequency of epic forms and constructions in the
Mahabharata independent of the age of the section they appear in?  Or do
older parts of the Mahabharata have more epic forms than newer sections?

Are there any epic forms in the Bhagavadgita?

Harry Spier

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 4:45 AM Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep and
> others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks digesting
> all kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based
> on them) seems to suggest that we can distinguish temporal strata in the
> Mbh. A detail study of the Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not
> too far away from some outcomes of philological research:
>   * BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries CE
> (rather 200 CE++)
>   * Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> ---
> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf, IVS Z?rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Oct 29 14:55:37 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 18 07:55:37 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzf3KQccUqXCcjuA3Y8kTeMOpfNYZ9D4G+g5s=Z4d8DqhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

????? ???????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????: ???: ?
??????? ?? ?????????? ? ??? ???? ????????? ???????
O Lord, by placing my trust in you I made you the driver of the chariot of
my mind. And now my unmoving chariot does not take me anywhere.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu  Mon Oct 29 20:48:44 2018
From: mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu (Mark McClish)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 18 20:48:44 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_gang_zag_and_puru=E1=B9=A3a?=
Message-ID: <E064824A-D519-4629-9CC8-1572853720CB@northwestern.edu>

Dear List,

A colleague who does not subscribe to the list is investigating the Tibetan term gang zag and its use as a translation of Sanskrit puru?a or pudgala. I am unfamiliar with Tibetan, but am told that gang zag can be etymologized as ?full? (gang) and ?impurities, outflows? (zag). If it is a rendering of puru?a, I can see that ?full? might come from reading the first part of puru?a as p?ra. The rest eludes me. There is also the fact that puru?a occurs in P?li as purisa, close to Sanskrit pur??a (?rubble," ?feces," etc.).

Any help untangling the relationship between these terms and their translation between Tibetan and Sanskrit/P?li would be most appreciated.

All best,
Mark McClish



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From christian.haskett at centre.edu  Tue Oct 30 00:01:32 2018
From: christian.haskett at centre.edu (Christian P. Haskett)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 00:01:32 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_gang_zag_and_puru=E1=B9=A3a?=
Message-ID: <FFD3B1D4-B50D-463F-A993-BEB8D288F0DE@centre.edu>


Negi, Tibetan-Sanskrit Dictionary [vol. 2], CIHTS, Varanasi, p. 473 gives pudgala?, with sattva? as a secondary for gang zag; then lists pu?gava? and pum?n.   Through the next 15-20 definitions, there are variations of pudgala such as pudgalapraj?apti? (gang zag ?dogs pa), but none with puru?a.

I forget where, but I read a perhaps apocryphal story, maybe a joke, about a nomad or some other rustic visiting Lhasa who came upon two monks hotly debating the famous emptiness of the gang zag, and intervened to say, as I recall, ?pray sirs, just use mine!? offering his tobacco pipe (gang zag).  A tobacco pipe is filled (gang) and emptied (zag).


This meaning of pudgala (Pkt puggala) becomes clearer in the Jain context where a person?an individual karmic subject?waxes and wanes. Thus, Jainendra Siddh?nta Ko?a (vol 4, p 68) cites niyamas?ra t?tparya v?tti 6: galanap?ra?asvabh?vasan?tha? pudgala?


For puru?a, Tibetan translates skyes bu or mi.

best
cpbh
--
Chris Haskett
Assistant Professor, Religion
Centre College







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From loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu  Tue Oct 30 00:55:47 2018
From: loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu (Loriliai Biernacki)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 00:55:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source
Message-ID: <D7FD0742.1398E6%biernack@colorado.edu>


Dear folks,
I?m wondering if anyone knows the source of this quote I found in Abhinavagupta:

'pravibhajy?tman?tm?na? s???v? bh?v?n p?thag vidh?n |
         sarve?vara? sarvamaya? svapne bhokt? pravartate  ||'

Which I?ve translated as: Dividing the Self by the Self, having created entities of different types, he places them separately.  The Lord of all, consisting of all, is the enjoyer, the experiencer in dreams, who sets things in motion.

Thanks for any assistance!
All best,
 Loriliai Biernacki






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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Tue Oct 30 01:00:25 2018
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 01:00:25 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source
Message-ID: <D7FD252D.62DCE%lubint@wlu.edu>

It is Bhart?hari?s V?kyapad?ya 1.140.

Best,
Tim Lubin

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Loriliai Biernacki <loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu<mailto:loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu>>
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:55 PM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source


Dear folks,
I?m wondering if anyone knows the source of this quote I found in Abhinavagupta:

'pravibhajy?tman?tm?na? s???v? bh?v?n p?thag vidh?n |
         sarve?vara? sarvamaya? svapne bhokt? pravartate  ||'

Which I?ve translated as: Dividing the Self by the Self, having created entities of different types, he places them separately.  The Lord of all, consisting of all, is the enjoyer, the experiencer in dreams, who sets things in motion.

Thanks for any assistance!
All best,
 Loriliai Biernacki






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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Tue Oct 30 01:09:39 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 18 21:09:39 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source
In-Reply-To: <D7FD0742.1398E6%biernack@colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHG6-ZGGX=ZaCzNi3xNKJnSMkLYxV_1mYD=9Vh-v=j-5g@mail.gmail.com>

If you do a search of the Mu;ktabodha digital library you'll see the line
occurs in the ??varapratyabhij??viv?tivimar?in?, param?rthas?ra,  and the
spandak?rik?.

The SpandakarikA attributes the line to bhart?hari

Harry Spier

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 8:56 PM Loriliai Biernacki via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> Dear folks,
> I?m wondering if anyone knows the source of this quote I found in
> Abhinavagupta:
>
> 'pravibhajy?tman?tm?na? s???v? bh?v?n p?thag vidh?n |
>
>          sarve?vara? sarvamaya? svapne bhokt? pravartate  ||'
>
> Which I?ve translated as: Dividing the Self by the Self, having created
> entities of different types, he places them separately.  The Lord of all,
> consisting of all, is the enjoyer, the experiencer in dreams, who sets
> things in motion.
>
>
> Thanks for any assistance!
> All best,
>  Loriliai Biernacki
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Tue Oct 30 01:22:21 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 18 21:22:21 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHG6-ZGGX=ZaCzNi3xNKJnSMkLYxV_1mYD=9Vh-v=j-5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFH16LTH9Cv9KbdP88Naohy-F3fzVYP-znne-PDMJhfQg@mail.gmail.com>

To clarify what I just sent.
The line is quoted in Abhinavagupta;s viv?tivimar?in?, Yogaraja's
commentary to Abhinavagupta's param?rthas?ra and r?maka??ha's viv?ti to the
spandak?rik? where it is attributed to bhart?hari.
Best wishes,
Harry Spier

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:09 PM Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 8:56 PM Loriliai Biernacki via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear folks,
>> I?m wondering if anyone knows the source of this quote I found in
>> Abhinavagupta:
>>
>> 'pravibhajy?tman?tm?na? s???v? bh?v?n p?thag vidh?n |
>>
>>          sarve?vara? sarvamaya? svapne bhokt? pravartate  ||'
>>
>> Which I?ve translated as: Dividing the Self by the Self, having created
>> entities of different types, he places them separately.  The Lord of
>> all, consisting of all, is the enjoyer, the experiencer in dreams, who sets
>> things in motion.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for any assistance!
>> All best,
>>  Loriliai Biernacki
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>


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From loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu  Tue Oct 30 01:48:34 2018
From: loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu (Loriliai Biernacki)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 01:48:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source
In-Reply-To: <D7FD252D.62DCE%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <D7FD1455.139973%biernack@colorado.edu>


Thanks to Tim Lubin and Tim Cahill for such speedy replies!

All best,
Loriliai Biernacki


From: "Lubin, Tim" <LubinT at wlu.edu<mailto:LubinT at wlu.edu>>
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018 at 7:00 PM
To: Loriliai Biernacki <Loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu<mailto:Loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu>>, "indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] quote source

It is Bhart?hari?s V?kyapad?ya 1.140.

Best,
Tim Lubin

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Loriliai Biernacki <loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu<mailto:loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu>>
Date: Monday, October 29, 2018 at 8:55 PM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] quote source


Dear folks,
I?m wondering if anyone knows the source of this quote I found in Abhinavagupta:

'pravibhajy?tman?tm?na? s???v? bh?v?n p?thag vidh?n |
         sarve?vara? sarvamaya? svapne bhokt? pravartate  ||'

Which I?ve translated as: Dividing the Self by the Self, having created entities of different types, he places them separately.  The Lord of all, consisting of all, is the enjoyer, the experiencer in dreams, who sets things in motion.

Thanks for any assistance!
All best,
 Loriliai Biernacki






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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Tue Oct 30 08:10:13 2018
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 09:10:13 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_gang_zag_and_puru=E1=B9=A3a?=
In-Reply-To: <E064824A-D519-4629-9CC8-1572853720CB@northwestern.edu>
Message-ID: <20181030091013.Horde.BD3WLfvUtNQu5YDbs1d4Qq9@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>


In his article

"A propos the Term gtsug lag" (first published in: Tibetan Studies.  
Proceedings of the 7th Seminar of the International Association for  
Tibetan Studies, Graz 1995, Vol. 1, ed. by Helmut Krasser, Michael  
Thorsten Much, Ernst Steinkellner, Helmut Tauscher, Wien 1997  
{?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften,  
Philosophisch-historische Klasse, Denkschriften, 256. Band, pp.  
347-354 = Michael Hahn: Schl?ssel zum Lehrbuch der klassischen  
tibetischen Schriftsprache und Beitr?ge zur tibetischen Wortkunde  
[Miscellanea etymologica tibetica I-VI], Marburg 2003 [Indica et  
Tibetica. 10a], pp. 131-143),

Michael Hahn gives the following explanation (Hahn 1997, p. 352 = Hahn  
2003, p. 140):

"ga? zag, rendering pudgala 'individual being': literally '(that which  
is first) completed and then decaying'"

Obviously, ga? zag is an attempted etymological translation pf  
pudgala/pu?gala (p?r, "to fill, fulfill", ga? ba "full" + gal, "to  
drop; to vanish, disappear", zag pa = gzag pa > 'dzag pa "to drop,  
drip, trickle; to flow out").


Best,
Roland Steiner






From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Oct 30 17:34:12 2018
From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 18:34:12 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_University_of_T=C3=BCbingen,_20.11.2018:_Hermann_Gundert_Digital?=
Message-ID: <5DDC6CDF-8DD4-48BA-902C-5E88039DFA15@uni-tuebingen.de>

INVITATION to the official launch of the ?Hermann Gundert Portal?

http://gundert-portal.de (not yet online)

20th November 2018, 4.15 pm
Tu?bingen University Library, Historical Reading Room

Dear colleagues,

The Department of Indology of the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies and the Tu?bingen University Library, with the support of the German Research Foundation (DFG), have digitised the Hermann Gundert legacy (manuscripts, prints) kept at the University Library and prepared it for use by the scientific community.

In southwestern India, Hermann Gundert, grandfather of Hermann Hesse, still enjoys a high esteem: During his time as a missionary of the Basel Mission (1838 - 1859), he researched Malayalam, the language spoken in the region and wrote his famous Malayalam-English dictionary, which is still being reprinted today. He also promoted many translations.

Contributors in India, Israel, Poland and Germany were involved in this successful international project. The result of this project is now available digitally and to a large extent as a searchable full text. Partners from the Indian state of Kerala have been won for transcribing the Malayalam texts.

On 20th November 2018, we would like to present the result of this project, the Hermann Gundert Portal. Prof. M. Sreenathan will be representing the Malayalam University, Tirur, Kerala.
The event will take place at 4.15 pm in the Historical Reading Room of the Tu?bingen University Library. Afterwards we invite you to a small reception.

	    Greetings

Dr. Marianne Do?rr (Chief Librarian, Tu?bingen University Library)

Prof. Dr. Ju?rgen Leonhardt (Dean of the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Tu?bingen)

Dr. Albrecht Frenz (Founder of the Hermann-Gundert-Gesellschaft)

Short lectures

The Kerala Archives Interest Group and the importance of 19th century Malayalam works for Kerala (Shiju Alex, Coordinator Team India)

Introduction to the project and live presentation of the portal
(Dr. Gabriele Zeller, Subject Specialist, Tu?bingen University Library)

The Hermann Gundert Portal: Its Relevance for Indology and Beyond (Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin, Department of Indology, University of Tu?bingen)

The Gundert Portal: A Resource for Indian Academia
(Prof. Dr. M. Sreenathan, Malayalam University, Tirur / Kerala) 



-------------------
Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin
Eberhard Karls University of Tuebingen
Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI)
Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion
Keplerstr. 2 (room 139)  ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany

Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066
heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de
 
http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/aoi/indologie/mitarbeiter/heike-oberlin-moser.html





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From sravana.varma at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 01:38:30 2018
From: sravana.varma at gmail.com (Sravana Borkataky-Varma)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 18 20:38:30 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Tripurasundar=C4=AB?=
Message-ID: <CA+826e_sGwhVLg+i3V-jm1EvF9_RSkermuOorxfFanHXiKD2Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Risa Jana,

Looking for some leads on the reasons for differences in Tripurasundar?
representations in Tripura (Matabari temple) and Tripurasundar? in South
India (?r?vidy? tradition).

Thank you,

Sravana

-- 
Dr. Sravana Borkataky-Varma
*Visiting Faculty *
University of North Carolina Wilmington & University of Montana
*Instructor *
Susanne M. Glasscock School of Continuing Studies, Rice University &
The Women's Institute of Houston

Co-Chair, American Academy of Religion, Yoga in Theory and Practice
https://rice.academia.edu/SravanaBorkatakyVarma


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From clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Oct 31 05:24:59 2018
From: clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz (Clemency Montelle)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 05:24:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about manuscript ownership
Message-ID: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FE6A4B4@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>

Dear colleagues,

A researcher purchased an original Sanskrit manuscript, date of copying unknown, from a dealer in India, and made photocopies of it.  The original manuscript was then donated to a manuscript library in India. (The manuscript never left India so there is no conflict with the 1972 Antiquities and Art Treasures Act's export restrictions.) The researcher now wants to use some of the photocopied images of the manuscript---which were made while the researcher owned the manuscript---in a publication.

Who needs to give permission for the use of those photocopied images?  The researcher (and past owner of the original manuscript) who made and owns the photocopies, the manuscript library which is the present owner of the original manuscript, or both?

Thanks to any insight anyone might have in this particularly complicated question!

Best wishes,
Clemency

----
Dr. Clemency Montelle
Associate Professor
School of Mathematics and Statistics
University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
NEW ZEALAND
http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/


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From antonio.jardim at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 05:34:03 2018
From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 15:34:03 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about manuscript ownership
In-Reply-To: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FE6A4B4@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CAGDOqfoWPYwg9Af8=S0v5PoJXAp6+fHh3L+LZTLRLDGrz3SMRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Clemency,

The photographs are the intellectual property of the researcher and can use
them as they see fit - unless the terms of sale of the manuscript to the
museum contained restraint of use clauses - which may or may not be legally
enforceable in an Indian court.

Kind regards,
Antonio
UQ
Australia

On Wed., 31 Oct. 2018, 3:25 pm Clemency Montelle via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> A researcher purchased an original Sanskrit manuscript, date of copying
> unknown, from a dealer in India, and made photocopies of it.  The original
> manuscript was then donated to a manuscript library in India. (The
> manuscript never left India so there is no conflict with the 1972
> Antiquities and Art Treasures Act's export restrictions.) The researcher
> now wants to use some of the photocopied images of the manuscript---which
> were made while the researcher owned the manuscript---in a publication.
>
> Who needs to give permission for the use of those photocopied images?  The
> researcher (and past owner of the original manuscript) who made and owns
> the photocopies, the manuscript library which is the present owner of the
> original manuscript, or both?
>
> Thanks to any insight anyone might have in this particularly complicated
> question!
>
> Best wishes,
> Clemency
>
> ----
>
> Dr. Clemency Montelle
>
> Associate Professor
>
> School of Mathematics and Statistics
>
> University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
>
> Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
>
> NEW ZEALAND
>
> http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From vajpeyi at csds.in  Wed Oct 31 09:37:04 2018
From: vajpeyi at csds.in (Ananya Vajpeyi)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 15:07:04 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query about Poetics
Message-ID: <CAHxuC0RwDGGhgD0zOhTFxO8MXTRmh393SC0yrDyDSOcVoNejzw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I wondered if there is a preferred English-language term used currently to
replace ?poetician? when referring to writers on poetics / literary and
aesthetic theory / literary criticism / figures of speech in the Sanskrit
traditions of Alankara Sastra and Kavya Sastra. I find ?poetician? somewhat
dated and I?ve never really seen it used outside of Indological
scholarship.

Please advise.

Thank you,

Ananya Vajpeyi.





-- 
Sent on the fly, please excuse typos.


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 09:56:58 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 10:56:58 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about manuscript ownership
In-Reply-To: <CAGDOqfoWPYwg9Af8=S0v5PoJXAp6+fHh3L+LZTLRLDGrz3SMRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+RxgjQ4pFyYM0BOgziA5Ei75ushXBuUA4=SrsOQAWvfA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends
Nothing more than a small footnote to Antonio's response: I happened to
have a long discussion with an intellectual property law specialist last
week basically about exactly this question. The upshot: under US, UK and
European law (and I cannot say about India, but I guess it can't be
fundamentally different in this respect), it is not possible to exert
copyright over two dimensional reproductions of two dimensional objects (eg
manuscripts) which themselves are not subject to copyright. What is
possible is to make contractual conditions, but you can do this only if you
are the owner, of course. So if one does something with an MS, like
photographs it, and then the MS passes into other hands, it has no legal
bearing on the photos you made. What is more, if you take photos of an MS
in a library, for instance, or in someone's home, and they impose no
contractual conditions on you, you can do whatever you like with the photos
-- but also, note, you cannot --on the basis of copyright --claim further
control of the images.  What this comes down to is that many if not most of
the claims being made for control of images of manuscripts are not legally
valid.
Nota bene: this is a different question from the following: do you want to
get into a fight with a library? The British Library in my view illegally
puts conditions on manuscripts they own. But if you annoy them, I'm sure
they are perfectly capable of mishandling your next request... I hasten to
say this is not so far my experience, but I did write to them asking them
the legal grounds upon which they were imposing conditions on me and their
response was not warm and fuzzy.
It reminds me of a joke from my childhood: We're the telephone company; we
don't care, we don't have to.

Jonathan

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 6:34 AM Antonio Ferreira-Jardim via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hi Clemency,
>
> The photographs are the intellectual property of the researcher and can
> use them as they see fit - unless the terms of sale of the manuscript to
> the museum contained restraint of use clauses - which may or may not be
> legally enforceable in an Indian court.
>
> Kind regards,
> Antonio
> UQ
> Australia
>
> On Wed., 31 Oct. 2018, 3:25 pm Clemency Montelle via INDOLOGY, <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> A researcher purchased an original Sanskrit manuscript, date of copying
>> unknown, from a dealer in India, and made photocopies of it.  The original
>> manuscript was then donated to a manuscript library in India. (The
>> manuscript never left India so there is no conflict with the 1972
>> Antiquities and Art Treasures Act's export restrictions.) The researcher
>> now wants to use some of the photocopied images of the manuscript---which
>> were made while the researcher owned the manuscript---in a publication.
>>
>> Who needs to give permission for the use of those photocopied images?
>> The researcher (and past owner of the original manuscript) who made and
>> owns the photocopies, the manuscript library which is the present owner of
>> the original manuscript, or both?
>>
>> Thanks to any insight anyone might have in this particularly complicated
>> question!
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Clemency
>>
>> ----
>>
>> Dr. Clemency Montelle
>>
>> Associate Professor
>>
>> School of Mathematics and Statistics
>>
>> University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
>>
>> Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
>>
>> NEW ZEALAND
>>
>> http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Wed Oct 31 09:58:44 2018
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 10:58:44 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query about Poetics
In-Reply-To: <CAHxuC0RwDGGhgD0zOhTFxO8MXTRmh393SC0yrDyDSOcVoNejzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181031105844.Horde.hrK0AaQ8JGJhk3j8wSY7Toh@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>


In his monumental Indian K?vya Literature, A.K. Warder is using terms  
such as "[literary] critic" or "theorist of [styles, figures, etc.]."

Best,
R.S.








From veerankp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 13:01:22 2018
From: veerankp at gmail.com (Veeranarayana Pandurangi)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 18:31:22 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dating of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad
In-Reply-To: <CAMfk7BpNCgCo40w0dEhbWsA2QqawifKM1V==Ruh-CH=dyou=kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPnSTegXDTLCXUuxLMWYbGfHZ1zKWDsPw-7aTiwiXaKsJXC_nw@mail.gmail.com>

there is a mention of Steven Lindquist's "lines of descent and dissent"
published in "religions of south asia" 5. it is available in equinox
website for a price.  Brian Black's "Rethinking the Upanishadic Vamshas" is
also published in the same thing. I would be glad to read both. I hope you
will help me.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:21 AM Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Veenanarayana,
>
> Please find attached the relevant chapters from Cohen's book on the
> Upanishads.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Brad
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:00 AM Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sure, I?ll try my best to get those chapters scanned and emailed to you
>> later today.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:57 AM Veeranarayana Pandurangi <
>> veerankp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear sir, very much thanks.
>>> I am afraid that I may not be able to soon (in a week, that is my time
>>> for it now) anywhere in India. Pl. Help me get the scanned images of these
>>> chapters if possible.
>>>
>>> On 21 Oct 2018 11:54 pm, "Bradley Clough via INDOLOGY" <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> I would suggest consulting Signe Cohen?s edited volume (Routledge 2018)
>>> titled *The Upanisads: A Complete Guide*.  Chapters 2-4, all by Cohen, and
>>> Chapter 23, by Dermot Killingley, are particularly pertinent to this matter.
>>>
>>> Brad Clough
>>> The University of Montana
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>>

-- 
Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Director of Academics
Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
Karnakata Samskrita University,
Pampa Mahakavi Road,
Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.


?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ??????
???????????????
?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ????????
??????????? (?.??.)

http://www.ksu.ac.in
http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Oct 31 13:53:54 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 06:53:54 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcFXq1ryRO7NV5-OT9Hqdhg=b1wiUNdyN+JvhNZitdquw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

??????????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?
?? ???????????????????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????????
O friend, you have won me easily with your friendship. O Lord, take away
everything other than your friendship.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


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From csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Oct 31 16:36:40 2018
From: csaba_dezso at yahoo.co.uk (Csaba Dezso)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 17:36:40 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bhitari Pillar
Message-ID: <F11F7F62-5280-4479-956F-ED6097F005AA@yahoo.co.uk>

Dear Colleagues,
Does anyone happen to know where the Bhitari Pillar Inscription of Skandagupta is kept these days?
Many thanks for any info,
Csaba Dezs?




------
Csaba Dezs?, PhD
Senior Lecturer
Department of Indian Studies
E?tv?s Lor?nd University
H-1088 Budapest
M?zeum krt. 6-8/A.
Hungary
tel.: +36-1-4116500 / ext. 5368
e-mail: dezso.csaba at btk.elte.hu <mailto:dezso.csaba at btk.elte.hu>





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From jmmadaio at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 16:50:31 2018
From: jmmadaio at gmail.com (James Madaio)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 17:50:31 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_Book_Publication_-_A_Vai=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=87ava_Poet_in_Early_Modern_Bengal?=
Message-ID: <CAJZ7h_yZkhz-B16Ac41vENJCg1r+wHzAC1+snPRc7qhas-pPBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All,

Some on this list may be interested to know of a recently published book on
the Gau??ya Vai??ava tradition by my colleague Rembert Lutjeharms entitled *A
Vai??ava Poet in Early Modern Bengal: Kavikar?ap?ra's Splendour of Speech*.

Further information on the book is available here:
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-vaisnava-poet-in-early-modern-bengal-9780198827108?cc=gb&lang=en


I have been informed that the code AAFLYG6 can be used for a 30% discount
when ordering the book from OUP's global website (oup.com).

Best wishes,

James
-
Dr. James Madaio
Fellow, Oriental Institute (Prague), Czech Academy of Sciences
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Associate Editor, Journal of Hindu Studies


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From jbagchee at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 16:57:35 2018
From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 12:57:35 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoCjMEuFkyh+syYN8Z5-B+nL0EjJSx4ui2tG_JTHMJCbAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB7QHO0iZiGKTAmpJFq63kK95dJT6W2Hi7APOokj4Ct380x0sg@mail.gmail.com>

Not again! We?ve gone over this ground already. Eli already raised these
?misunderstandings? of *The Nay Science *before. We comprehensively
responded to him in ?Theses on Indology.? But if Jan wishes to have it all
explained again, here we go. Jan raises the following objections:



1. That we did not define German by race or nation or language.

2. That we overlooked the commonality of German Indology with other
countries.

3. That we made a subset of German Indology stand in for the whole.

4. That we critique Indology because we stand for tradition.

5. That we therefore stand outside a European tradition of critical inquiry.

6. And finally, that our work lacks the proper graces.



The definition of German Indology in terms of allegiance to intellectual
concerns and a methodological and institutional paradigm is wholly
consistent within itself, and misunderstandings such as those voiced in
points 2 and 3 only arise because scholars insist on the categories of
nation, language, and ethnicity. Finally, we can continue to repeat tropes
of ?European = critical,? ?Indian = traditional.? By now it is amply clear
whose work is critical and who is desperately trying to protect traditional
authority and privilege. Who is caricaturing whom here?



In order not to belabor the discussion, I have appended a list of our
writings where further clarifications to Jan?s comments can be found. If
there are new objections, Vishwa and I will be happy to respond to them.
But let?s not self-defeatingly keep proposing ethnic or national
definitions of ?German? and stereotypes of ?the critical European? vs. ?the
uncritical Indian.? It only confirms the point.



On ?German Indology and National Socialism? see ?Jews and Hindus in
Indology,? 24, n. 95, 26, n. 105, 27, n. 106, and 69, n. 199. On ?Andrew
Nicholson? see ?The Real Threat to the Humanities Today,? 1?16. On ?J?rgen
Hanneder? see ?5 in 10?Interview with Joydeep Bagchee? and ?Against
Occidentalism: A Conversation with Alice Crary and Vishwa Adluri in *The
Nay Science*.? On ?caricature? see ?Method and Racism in German Mah?bh?rata
Studies,? 1?6. On ?voluminous publication? see ?Theses on Indology,? 9?10
(on Bronkhorst), 10 (on Hanneder), and 11?14 (on Witzel). On ?the European
critical method of textual study? see *Philology and Criticism*, 63?65, and
99?100 (on Bronkhorst), 45?157 (on Bigger), 169?314 (on Gr?nendahl), 269?70
(on Slaje), 270?71 (on Hin?ber), 271?72 (on Fitzgerald), 272 (on Pollock),
320?36 (on Witzel), and 429?78 (on Brockington). On accepting ?any
traditionally proposed interpretation [?] without much reflection? see
ibid., 111?13 and 144?45 (on Austin), 21, 28?29, and 113?14 (on
Fitzgerald), 270 (on Bronkhorst), 434?35 and 466, n. 118 (on Brockington),
and the aforementioned pages in the Argument from Expertise again. See also
?Paradigm Lost,? 215?49 and 53?54 (on Jezic), 265, n. 12 (on Brockington),
282, n. 91 (on Witzel, Brockington, Malinar, and Szczurek), and 286, n. 104
(on Jezic, Szczurek, and Fitzgerald). See also Adluri, comments on Philipp
A. Maas, ?Negotiating Efficiencies,? parts 1?2 and final response. On ?a
very precise methodic research strategy [?] which goes back to earlier
stages of European philosophy [philology?] and critical reflection?
see *Philology
and Criticism*, 319?20, 323?24, and 339?40. On ?the art of ignoring? or
?methodic ignorance? see ?Jews and Hindus in Indology,? 66, n. 193 (on
Stache-Rosen, Franco, Schechtelich, Gr?nendahl, and Slaje). See also *The
Nay Science*, 426, n. 232 (on Slaje) and 444, n. 37 (on Steinkellner) and
the OBO entry on German Indology (on Hanneder). See also *Philology and
Criticism*, 432?33 and 435?49 (on Brockington?s ignorance of the concept of
a Venn diagram). On ?pure philological and linguistic research? see
?Indology: The Origins of Racism in the Humanities? 7 (on F. Schlegel) and
8?14 and 17, n. 43 (on A. W. Schlegel). On ?the research paradigm of
philological and linguistic research? see *Philology and Criticism*, 326,
nn. 7?8 (on Gr?nendahl), 326, nn. 9 (on Pollock and Jamison), and 327?28,
nn. 17?18 (on Witzel). See also Adluri, review of Pollock, et al., eds., *World
Philology*, 908?10 and Adluri, review of Malinar, *The Bhagavadg?t?*,
102?105. On the ?negativity? of ?European critical methods? see *Philology
and Criticism*, 93, n. 24 and 313, nn. 359?60. See also Bagchee?s
forthcoming review of Rabault-Feuerhahn, *Archives of Origins *in the
*International
Journal of Hindu Studies*. On the ?close relations? of German Indology with
?European orientalism? see the OBO entry ?European Constructions of
Hinduism.?



(Except for ?European Constructions of Hinduism" all writings are available
via Vishwa?s or my Academia page)


Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>

The Nay Science
<http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
Argument and Design
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
<http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
German Indology on OBO Hinduism
<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
___________________
What, then, is Philosophy?
Philosophy is the supremely precious.

Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5


On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 4:58 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Shyam Ranganathan,
> This is a legitimate question, which merits an adequate response.
> My "two cents":
> You may already have looked at the bibliographical article ?German
> Indology? by Joydeep Bagchee (JB) (Oxford Bibliographies online:
> www.oxfordbibliographies.com under ?German Indology? or:
>
> www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml
> )
> Since, as I pointed out elsewhere, ?Indology was more or less since its
> beginnings, end 18th ? beginning 19th century, mainly ?European? in
> character with intensive cooperations between French, British and German
> specialists, and has thus not only been sharing Oriental dreams but also a
> Nazi-nightmare,? the focus on ?German Indology? in JB?s article is itself
> problematic, especially because the author justifies it by invoking ?a
> distinct history and traditions? for German Indology, and ?unique concerns
> that set it apart from other forms of research into India? (?German
> Indology?, section ?Introduction?). Given this and other peculiar premises,
> the article contains nevertheless useful bibliographic references and brief
> evaluations (from the author?s point of view) of relevant publications,
> especially ? for your subject ? in two sections of the article: ?National
> Socialism? (topic: German Indology and National Socialism) and ?German
> Responses to National Socialist Indology.? Another relevant section is
> ?Orientalism Debate? which, in the view of the author (JB), as he expresses
> it in his evaluation of Halbfass?s India and Europe (1988), really starts
> with the publication of ?Pollock 1993? (see above). It is hence regrettable
> but not entirely surprising that the collective volume Beyond Orientalism
> (1997) is regarded by JB as a work which ?does not directly address the
> orientalist debate; it is really an overview of Halbfass?s work as a
> post-orientalist scholar.? In this section a reference is lacking to my
> review of this work which discusses and demonstrates how the work and in
> particular Halbfass?s dialogical contributions to it are indeed directly
> relevant to the ?Orientalism Debate? (?Orientalism, its critique, and
> beyond: review article of Beyond Orientalism, ed. by K. Preisendanz and E.
> Franco, Amsterdam 1997? (15 [1998]: 16) IIAS-Newsletter : Newsletter of the
> International Institute for Asian Studies (Leiden), no. 15. 1998 :
> https://www.academia.edu/6169112). With regard to Halbfass?s unsurpassed
> India and Europe (1988), the author (JB) thinks that it ?needs revision in
> light of newer discoveries? but fails to point out that several currently
> self-styled ?new discoveries? need, in fact, also revision in the light of
> Halbfass?s monumental achievement in comparative philosophy which is
> exceptionally well-founded both in ?Western? and in Indian philosophy.
> I have in the meantime also updated my almost antique "conference report"
> (of the 29th DOT of the DMG in Leipzig, 1995)
> www.academia.edu/7378413
> with two "Further Postscripts", the second of which containing a brief *compte
> rendu* of VA&JB's *The Nay Science* in which I address two "key-problems"
> that remain in this work, a heavy ?stone in the pond? of Indology and Asian
> Studies, in spite of the large number of reviews and rejoinders that have
> already appeared, and propose two "keys" to solve them.
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 18:26, Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>>
>> I recall that in *India and Europe,* Halbfass discusses the development
>> of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest
>> in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm
>> trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe
>> (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was
>> treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point
>> to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was
>> something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Shyam
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Shyam Ranganathan
>>
>> Department of Philosophy
>>
>> York Center for Asian Research
>> York University, Toronto
>>
>>
>>
>> shyam-ranganathan.info  <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation
>> <https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>*
>>
>>
>>
>> *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics
>> <http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras
>> <http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>* (Translation,
>> Edition and Commentary)
>>
>>
>>
>> *Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin
>> Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>*
>>
>>
>>
>> Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jbagchee at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 17:56:11 2018
From: jbagchee at gmail.com (Joydeep)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 13:56:11 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mbh stratification
In-Reply-To: <4e6cc77d-3c1b-0371-f527-e2e42be5bfb7@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <CAB7QHO0wrgNE9XTWq7ncLQcOrVAPsrKcbRqNuSyPaePCMsjBpg@mail.gmail.com>

Can you share a pre-print version of your paper, Oliver? I?m interested in
the developmental hypotheses you propose for these findings. When you write
?not too far away from some outcomes of philological research? I presume
you mean von Simson (1968/1969) (cited in your 2017 paper). But even if
your results are close, it cannot vindicate von Simson?s work as
?philological research.? It only demonstrates the failure of
text-historical philology as it unfolded from Lassen to von Simson, since a
a different science and technology, i.e., computer science and information
technology, was required. The success of psychopharmacology does not
vindicate phrenology as a science. Results acquired through prejudice,
chance, or ideology are not scientific results, and the development of a
posterior science cannot confer scientificity on them. Finally, we cannot
referee past Mah?bh?rata scholarship without attention to its historical
context. Here I recommend looking at *The Nay Science*for von Simson?s
reliance on Holtzmann?s ?inversion hypothesis? and on Lassen?s thesis of a
war epic before its ?Brahmanic? corruption. I have uploaded the section
here: http://www.academia.edu/37681318. Also, to bring this discussion,
which Jan Houben began, full circle, see this link for Irawati Karve:
http://manufacturingrace.org/3-researchers. We simply cannot go forward
with philology unless we acknowledge the problems with previous scholarship.



Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>

The Nay Science
<http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
Argument and Design
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
<http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
German Indology on OBO Hinduism
<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
___________________
What, then, is Philosophy?
Philosophy is the supremely precious.

Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5


On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 4:45 AM Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> just a short PS for the Mbh stratification thread (Andrew, Joydeep and
> others): A follow-up paper to appear in 2019 (neural networks digesting
> all kinds of linguistic features and making temporal predictions based
> on them) seems to suggest that we can distinguish temporal strata in the
> Mbh. A detail study of the Bhishmaparvan produces results that are not
> too far away from some outcomes of philological research:
>   * BhG + the introductory chapters of Book 6: first few centuries CE
> (rather 200 CE++)
>   * Battle passages quite constantly placed in the centuries BCE
>
> Best, Oliver
>
> ---
> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991 D?sseldorf, IVS Z?rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 18:01:02 2018
From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 19:01:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
In-Reply-To: <CAB7QHO0iZiGKTAmpJFq63kK95dJT6W2Hi7APOokj4Ct380x0sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOuG4CZ-FWDx40o05gy9+=FhJ+-s8Nh0E1HzA88gjr_XcgRZ1g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Members of the Indology list,

On the scholarly quality of (as well as on the personal motivation for) the
publication by V. Adluri and J. Bagchee on German Indology see now also
J?rgen Hanneder?s review entitled ?Kraut Indology? here
<https://www.uni-marburg.de/fb10/iksl/indologie/fachgebiet/mitarbeiter/hanneder/downloads/downloads-varia/krautindology.pdf>
.



Best,



Philipp Maas
__________________________

Dr. Philipp A. Maas
Research Associate
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Universit?t Leipzig
___________________________

https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas


Am Mi., 31. Okt. 2018 um 18:42 Uhr schrieb Joydeep via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Not again! We?ve gone over this ground already. Eli already raised these
> ?misunderstandings? of *The Nay Science *before. We comprehensively
> responded to him in ?Theses on Indology.? But if Jan wishes to have it all
> explained again, here we go. Jan raises the following objections:
>
>
>
> 1. That we did not define German by race or nation or language.
>
> 2. That we overlooked the commonality of German Indology with other
> countries.
>
> 3. That we made a subset of German Indology stand in for the whole.
>
> 4. That we critique Indology because we stand for tradition.
>
> 5. That we therefore stand outside a European tradition of critical
> inquiry.
>
> 6. And finally, that our work lacks the proper graces.
>
>
>
> The definition of German Indology in terms of allegiance to intellectual
> concerns and a methodological and institutional paradigm is wholly
> consistent within itself, and misunderstandings such as those voiced in
> points 2 and 3 only arise because scholars insist on the categories of
> nation, language, and ethnicity. Finally, we can continue to repeat tropes
> of ?European = critical,? ?Indian = traditional.? By now it is amply clear
> whose work is critical and who is desperately trying to protect traditional
> authority and privilege. Who is caricaturing whom here?
>
>
>
> In order not to belabor the discussion, I have appended a list of our
> writings where further clarifications to Jan?s comments can be found. If
> there are new objections, Vishwa and I will be happy to respond to them.
> But let?s not self-defeatingly keep proposing ethnic or national
> definitions of ?German? and stereotypes of ?the critical European? vs. ?the
> uncritical Indian.? It only confirms the point.
>
>
>
> On ?German Indology and National Socialism? see ?Jews and Hindus in
> Indology,? 24, n. 95, 26, n. 105, 27, n. 106, and 69, n. 199. On ?Andrew
> Nicholson? see ?The Real Threat to the Humanities Today,? 1?16. On ?J?rgen
> Hanneder? see ?5 in 10?Interview with Joydeep Bagchee? and ?Against
> Occidentalism: A Conversation with Alice Crary and Vishwa Adluri in *The
> Nay Science*.? On ?caricature? see ?Method and Racism in German
> Mah?bh?rata Studies,? 1?6. On ?voluminous publication? see ?Theses on
> Indology,? 9?10 (on Bronkhorst), 10 (on Hanneder), and 11?14 (on Witzel).
> On ?the European critical method of textual study? see *Philology and
> Criticism*, 63?65, and 99?100 (on Bronkhorst), 45?157 (on Bigger),
> 169?314 (on Gr?nendahl), 269?70 (on Slaje), 270?71 (on Hin?ber), 271?72 (on
> Fitzgerald), 272 (on Pollock), 320?36 (on Witzel), and 429?78 (on
> Brockington). On accepting ?any traditionally proposed interpretation [?]
> without much reflection? see ibid., 111?13 and 144?45 (on Austin), 21,
> 28?29, and 113?14 (on Fitzgerald), 270 (on Bronkhorst), 434?35 and 466, n.
> 118 (on Brockington), and the aforementioned pages in the Argument from
> Expertise again. See also ?Paradigm Lost,? 215?49 and 53?54 (on Jezic),
> 265, n. 12 (on Brockington), 282, n. 91 (on Witzel, Brockington, Malinar,
> and Szczurek), and 286, n. 104 (on Jezic, Szczurek, and Fitzgerald). See
> also Adluri, comments on Philipp A. Maas, ?Negotiating Efficiencies,? parts
> 1?2 and final response. On ?a very precise methodic research strategy [?]
> which goes back to earlier stages of European philosophy [philology?] and
> critical reflection? see *Philology and Criticism*, 319?20, 323?24, and
> 339?40. On ?the art of ignoring? or ?methodic ignorance? see ?Jews and
> Hindus in Indology,? 66, n. 193 (on Stache-Rosen, Franco, Schechtelich,
> Gr?nendahl, and Slaje). See also *The Nay Science*, 426, n. 232 (on
> Slaje) and 444, n. 37 (on Steinkellner) and the OBO entry on German
> Indology (on Hanneder). See also *Philology and Criticism*, 432?33 and
> 435?49 (on Brockington?s ignorance of the concept of a Venn diagram). On
> ?pure philological and linguistic research? see ?Indology: The Origins of
> Racism in the Humanities? 7 (on F. Schlegel) and 8?14 and 17, n. 43 (on A.
> W. Schlegel). On ?the research paradigm of philological and linguistic
> research? see *Philology and Criticism*, 326, nn. 7?8 (on Gr?nendahl),
> 326, nn. 9 (on Pollock and Jamison), and 327?28, nn. 17?18 (on Witzel). See
> also Adluri, review of Pollock, et al., eds., *World Philology*, 908?10
> and Adluri, review of Malinar, *The Bhagavadg?t?*, 102?105. On the
> ?negativity? of ?European critical methods? see *Philology and Criticism*,
> 93, n. 24 and 313, nn. 359?60. See also Bagchee?s forthcoming review of
> Rabault-Feuerhahn, *Archives of Origins *in the *International Journal of
> Hindu Studies*. On the ?close relations? of German Indology with
> ?European orientalism? see the OBO entry ?European Constructions of
> Hinduism.?
>
>
>
> (Except for ?European Constructions of Hinduism" all writings are
> available via Vishwa?s or my Academia page)
>
>
> Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
> Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>
>
> The Nay Science
> <http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
> Argument and Design
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
> Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
> When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
> Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
> <http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
> German Indology on OBO Hinduism
> <http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
> ___________________
> What, then, is Philosophy?
> Philosophy is the supremely precious.
>
> Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 4:58 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Shyam Ranganathan,
>> This is a legitimate question, which merits an adequate response.
>> My "two cents":
>> You may already have looked at the bibliographical article ?German
>> Indology? by Joydeep Bagchee (JB) (Oxford Bibliographies online:
>> www.oxfordbibliographies.com under ?German Indology? or:
>>
>> www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml
>> )
>> Since, as I pointed out elsewhere, ?Indology was more or less since its
>> beginnings, end 18th ? beginning 19th century, mainly ?European? in
>> character with intensive cooperations between French, British and German
>> specialists, and has thus not only been sharing Oriental dreams but also a
>> Nazi-nightmare,? the focus on ?German Indology? in JB?s article is itself
>> problematic, especially because the author justifies it by invoking ?a
>> distinct history and traditions? for German Indology, and ?unique concerns
>> that set it apart from other forms of research into India? (?German
>> Indology?, section ?Introduction?). Given this and other peculiar premises,
>> the article contains nevertheless useful bibliographic references and brief
>> evaluations (from the author?s point of view) of relevant publications,
>> especially ? for your subject ? in two sections of the article: ?National
>> Socialism? (topic: German Indology and National Socialism) and ?German
>> Responses to National Socialist Indology.? Another relevant section is
>> ?Orientalism Debate? which, in the view of the author (JB), as he expresses
>> it in his evaluation of Halbfass?s India and Europe (1988), really starts
>> with the publication of ?Pollock 1993? (see above). It is hence regrettable
>> but not entirely surprising that the collective volume Beyond Orientalism
>> (1997) is regarded by JB as a work which ?does not directly address the
>> orientalist debate; it is really an overview of Halbfass?s work as a
>> post-orientalist scholar.? In this section a reference is lacking to my
>> review of this work which discusses and demonstrates how the work and in
>> particular Halbfass?s dialogical contributions to it are indeed directly
>> relevant to the ?Orientalism Debate? (?Orientalism, its critique, and
>> beyond: review article of Beyond Orientalism, ed. by K. Preisendanz and E.
>> Franco, Amsterdam 1997? (15 [1998]: 16) IIAS-Newsletter : Newsletter of the
>> International Institute for Asian Studies (Leiden), no. 15. 1998 :
>> https://www.academia.edu/6169112). With regard to Halbfass?s unsurpassed
>> India and Europe (1988), the author (JB) thinks that it ?needs revision in
>> light of newer discoveries? but fails to point out that several currently
>> self-styled ?new discoveries? need, in fact, also revision in the light of
>> Halbfass?s monumental achievement in comparative philosophy which is
>> exceptionally well-founded both in ?Western? and in Indian philosophy.
>> I have in the meantime also updated my almost antique "conference report"
>> (of the 29th DOT of the DMG in Leipzig, 1995)
>> www.academia.edu/7378413
>> with two "Further Postscripts", the second of which containing a brief *compte
>> rendu* of VA&JB's *The Nay Science* in which I address two
>> "key-problems" that remain in this work, a heavy ?stone in the pond? of
>> Indology and Asian Studies, in spite of the large number of reviews and
>> rejoinders that have already appeared, and propose two "keys" to solve
>> them.
>> With best regards,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 18:26, Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>>>
>>> I recall that in *India and Europe,* Halbfass discusses the development
>>> of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest
>>> in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm
>>> trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe
>>> (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was
>>> treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point
>>> to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was
>>> something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Shyam
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Shyam Ranganathan
>>>
>>> Department of Philosophy
>>>
>>> York Center for Asian Research
>>> York University, Toronto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> shyam-ranganathan.info  <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation
>>> <https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics
>>> <http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras
>>> <http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>* (Translation,
>>> Edition and Commentary)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin
>>> Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 18:30:26 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 19:30:26 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
In-Reply-To: <CAB7QHO0iZiGKTAmpJFq63kK95dJT6W2Hi7APOokj4Ct380x0sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoDsbV2wkAztgVR-zO_OjHFX8Rb_ZU=cDLwzz+-qCyxk3w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Joydeep,
You are doing it again!
Which only confirms the aptness of my analysis at www.academia.edu/7378413
(last version with minor corrections 30-10-2018, pp. 9-12).
Point 1 of your representation of my argument is *almost* correct with one
crucial distinction: this was never my objection but an observation.
Gradually, the points of your representation swim away from my brief
analysis.
Until at points 5 and 6 it is diametrically opposed to the conclusions
reached in my analysis (as it is very clear in my review
that I consider* Love in a Dead Language* (by Lee Siegel) and "Ypsilon" (by
Hermann Weller) to be significant masterpieces).
From* almost *correct to diametrically opposed in just five to six steps.
Brilliant.
This is also what I predicted:
"the author of such allegory or caricature cannot himself explain it
without, in some sense, destroying the piece of art he has created" !
Best regards,
Jan

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 17:58, Joydeep <jbagchee at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not again! We?ve gone over this ground already. Eli already raised these
> ?misunderstandings? of *The Nay Science *before. We comprehensively
> responded to him in ?Theses on Indology.? But if Jan wishes to have it all
> explained again, here we go. Jan raises the following objections:
>
>
>
> 1. That we did not define German by race or nation or language.
>
> 2. That we overlooked the commonality of German Indology with other
> countries.
>
> 3. That we made a subset of German Indology stand in for the whole.
>
> 4. That we critique Indology because we stand for tradition.
>
> 5. That we therefore stand outside a European tradition of critical
> inquiry.
>
> 6. And finally, that our work lacks the proper graces.
>
>
>
> The definition of German Indology in terms of allegiance to intellectual
> concerns and a methodological and institutional paradigm is wholly
> consistent within itself, and misunderstandings such as those voiced in
> points 2 and 3 only arise because scholars insist on the categories of
> nation, language, and ethnicity. Finally, we can continue to repeat tropes
> of ?European = critical,? ?Indian = traditional.? By now it is amply clear
> whose work is critical and who is desperately trying to protect traditional
> authority and privilege. Who is caricaturing whom here?
>
>
>
> In order not to belabor the discussion, I have appended a list of our
> writings where further clarifications to Jan?s comments can be found. If
> there are new objections, Vishwa and I will be happy to respond to them.
> But let?s not self-defeatingly keep proposing ethnic or national
> definitions of ?German? and stereotypes of ?the critical European? vs. ?the
> uncritical Indian.? It only confirms the point.
>
>
>
> On ?German Indology and National Socialism? see ?Jews and Hindus in
> Indology,? 24, n. 95, 26, n. 105, 27, n. 106, and 69, n. 199. On ?Andrew
> Nicholson? see ?The Real Threat to the Humanities Today,? 1?16. On ?J?rgen
> Hanneder? see ?5 in 10?Interview with Joydeep Bagchee? and ?Against
> Occidentalism: A Conversation with Alice Crary and Vishwa Adluri in *The
> Nay Science*.? On ?caricature? see ?Method and Racism in German
> Mah?bh?rata Studies,? 1?6. On ?voluminous publication? see ?Theses on
> Indology,? 9?10 (on Bronkhorst), 10 (on Hanneder), and 11?14 (on Witzel).
> On ?the European critical method of textual study? see *Philology and
> Criticism*, 63?65, and 99?100 (on Bronkhorst), 45?157 (on Bigger),
> 169?314 (on Gr?nendahl), 269?70 (on Slaje), 270?71 (on Hin?ber), 271?72 (on
> Fitzgerald), 272 (on Pollock), 320?36 (on Witzel), and 429?78 (on
> Brockington). On accepting ?any traditionally proposed interpretation [?]
> without much reflection? see ibid., 111?13 and 144?45 (on Austin), 21,
> 28?29, and 113?14 (on Fitzgerald), 270 (on Bronkhorst), 434?35 and 466, n.
> 118 (on Brockington), and the aforementioned pages in the Argument from
> Expertise again. See also ?Paradigm Lost,? 215?49 and 53?54 (on Jezic),
> 265, n. 12 (on Brockington), 282, n. 91 (on Witzel, Brockington, Malinar,
> and Szczurek), and 286, n. 104 (on Jezic, Szczurek, and Fitzgerald). See
> also Adluri, comments on Philipp A. Maas, ?Negotiating Efficiencies,? parts
> 1?2 and final response. On ?a very precise methodic research strategy [?]
> which goes back to earlier stages of European philosophy [philology?] and
> critical reflection? see *Philology and Criticism*, 319?20, 323?24, and
> 339?40. On ?the art of ignoring? or ?methodic ignorance? see ?Jews and
> Hindus in Indology,? 66, n. 193 (on Stache-Rosen, Franco, Schechtelich,
> Gr?nendahl, and Slaje). See also *The Nay Science*, 426, n. 232 (on
> Slaje) and 444, n. 37 (on Steinkellner) and the OBO entry on German
> Indology (on Hanneder). See also *Philology and Criticism*, 432?33 and
> 435?49 (on Brockington?s ignorance of the concept of a Venn diagram). On
> ?pure philological and linguistic research? see ?Indology: The Origins of
> Racism in the Humanities? 7 (on F. Schlegel) and 8?14 and 17, n. 43 (on A.
> W. Schlegel). On ?the research paradigm of philological and linguistic
> research? see *Philology and Criticism*, 326, nn. 7?8 (on Gr?nendahl),
> 326, nn. 9 (on Pollock and Jamison), and 327?28, nn. 17?18 (on Witzel). See
> also Adluri, review of Pollock, et al., eds., *World Philology*, 908?10
> and Adluri, review of Malinar, *The Bhagavadg?t?*, 102?105. On the
> ?negativity? of ?European critical methods? see *Philology and Criticism*,
> 93, n. 24 and 313, nn. 359?60. See also Bagchee?s forthcoming review of
> Rabault-Feuerhahn, *Archives of Origins *in the *International Journal of
> Hindu Studies*. On the ?close relations? of German Indology with
> ?European orientalism? see the OBO entry ?European Constructions of
> Hinduism.?
>
>
>
> (Except for ?European Constructions of Hinduism" all writings are
> available via Vishwa?s or my Academia page)
>
>
> Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
> Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>
>
> The Nay Science
> <http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
> Argument and Design
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
> Reading the Fifth Veda <http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
> When the Goddess Was a Woman <http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
> Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India
> <http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
> German Indology on OBO Hinduism
> <http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
> ___________________
> What, then, is Philosophy?
> Philosophy is the supremely precious.
>
> Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 4:58 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Shyam Ranganathan,
>> This is a legitimate question, which merits an adequate response.
>> My "two cents":
>> You may already have looked at the bibliographical article ?German
>> Indology? by Joydeep Bagchee (JB) (Oxford Bibliographies online:
>> www.oxfordbibliographies.com under ?German Indology? or:
>>
>> www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml
>> )
>> Since, as I pointed out elsewhere, ?Indology was more or less since its
>> beginnings, end 18th ? beginning 19th century, mainly ?European? in
>> character with intensive cooperations between French, British and German
>> specialists, and has thus not only been sharing Oriental dreams but also a
>> Nazi-nightmare,? the focus on ?German Indology? in JB?s article is itself
>> problematic, especially because the author justifies it by invoking ?a
>> distinct history and traditions? for German Indology, and ?unique concerns
>> that set it apart from other forms of research into India? (?German
>> Indology?, section ?Introduction?). Given this and other peculiar premises,
>> the article contains nevertheless useful bibliographic references and brief
>> evaluations (from the author?s point of view) of relevant publications,
>> especially ? for your subject ? in two sections of the article: ?National
>> Socialism? (topic: German Indology and National Socialism) and ?German
>> Responses to National Socialist Indology.? Another relevant section is
>> ?Orientalism Debate? which, in the view of the author (JB), as he expresses
>> it in his evaluation of Halbfass?s India and Europe (1988), really starts
>> with the publication of ?Pollock 1993? (see above). It is hence regrettable
>> but not entirely surprising that the collective volume Beyond Orientalism
>> (1997) is regarded by JB as a work which ?does not directly address the
>> orientalist debate; it is really an overview of Halbfass?s work as a
>> post-orientalist scholar.? In this section a reference is lacking to my
>> review of this work which discusses and demonstrates how the work and in
>> particular Halbfass?s dialogical contributions to it are indeed directly
>> relevant to the ?Orientalism Debate? (?Orientalism, its critique, and
>> beyond: review article of Beyond Orientalism, ed. by K. Preisendanz and E.
>> Franco, Amsterdam 1997? (15 [1998]: 16) IIAS-Newsletter : Newsletter of the
>> International Institute for Asian Studies (Leiden), no. 15. 1998 :
>> https://www.academia.edu/6169112). With regard to Halbfass?s unsurpassed
>> India and Europe (1988), the author (JB) thinks that it ?needs revision in
>> light of newer discoveries? but fails to point out that several currently
>> self-styled ?new discoveries? need, in fact, also revision in the light of
>> Halbfass?s monumental achievement in comparative philosophy which is
>> exceptionally well-founded both in ?Western? and in Indian philosophy.
>> I have in the meantime also updated my almost antique "conference report"
>> (of the 29th DOT of the DMG in Leipzig, 1995)
>> www.academia.edu/7378413
>> with two "Further Postscripts", the second of which containing a brief *compte
>> rendu* of VA&JB's *The Nay Science* in which I address two
>> "key-problems" that remain in this work, a heavy ?stone in the pond? of
>> Indology and Asian Studies, in spite of the large number of reviews and
>> rejoinders that have already appeared, and propose two "keys" to solve
>> them.
>> With best regards,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 18:26, Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.
>>>
>>> I recall that in *India and Europe,* Halbfass discusses the development
>>> of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest
>>> in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm
>>> trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe
>>> (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was
>>> treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point
>>> to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was
>>> something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Shyam
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Shyam Ranganathan
>>>
>>> Department of Philosophy
>>>
>>> York Center for Asian Research
>>> York University, Toronto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> shyam-ranganathan.info  <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation
>>> <https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics
>>> <http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras
>>> <http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>* (Translation,
>>> Edition and Commentary)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin
>>> Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Oct 31 19:13:30 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 19:13:30 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoDsbV2wkAztgVR-zO_OjHFX8Rb_ZU=cDLwzz+-qCyxk3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B933D2@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

After an interesting discussion about Draupad?'s marriage to the five P???ava brothers we are back again at German Indology and Nazism, the latter an interesting illustration of Patrick Mccartney's vyakti prati yukti/ argumentum ad hominem.

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: woensdag 31 oktober 2018 19:30
Aan: Joydeep
CC: Indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Nazis, India

Dear Joydeep,
You are doing it again!
Which only confirms the aptness of my analysis at www.academia.edu/7378413<http://www.academia.edu/7378413> (last version with minor corrections 30-10-2018, pp. 9-12).
Point 1 of your representation of my argument is almost correct with one crucial distinction: this was never my objection but an observation.
Gradually, the points of your representation swim away from my brief analysis.
Until at points 5 and 6 it is diametrically opposed to the conclusions reached in my analysis (as it is very clear in my review
that I consider Love in a Dead Language (by Lee Siegel) and "Ypsilon" (by Hermann Weller) to be significant masterpieces).
>From almost correct to diametrically opposed in just five to six steps.
Brilliant.
This is also what I predicted:
"the author of such allegory or caricature cannot himself explain it without, in some sense, destroying the piece of art he has created" !
Best regards,
Jan

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 at 17:58, Joydeep <jbagchee at gmail.com<mailto:jbagchee at gmail.com>> wrote:
Not again! We?ve gone over this ground already. Eli already raised these ?misunderstandings? of The Nay Science before. We comprehensively responded to him in ?Theses on Indology.? But if Jan wishes to have it all explained again, here we go. Jan raises the following objections:

1. That we did not define German by race or nation or language.
2. That we overlooked the commonality of German Indology with other countries.
3. That we made a subset of German Indology stand in for the whole.
4. That we critique Indology because we stand for tradition.
5. That we therefore stand outside a European tradition of critical inquiry.
6. And finally, that our work lacks the proper graces.

The definition of German Indology in terms of allegiance to intellectual concerns and a methodological and institutional paradigm is wholly consistent within itself, and misunderstandings such as those voiced in points 2 and 3 only arise because scholars insist on the categories of nation, language, and ethnicity. Finally, we can continue to repeat tropes of ?European = critical,? ?Indian = traditional.? By now it is amply clear whose work is critical and who is desperately trying to protect traditional authority and privilege. Who is caricaturing whom here?

In order not to belabor the discussion, I have appended a list of our writings where further clarifications to Jan?s comments can be found. If there are new objections, Vishwa and I will be happy to respond to them. But let?s not self-defeatingly keep proposing ethnic or national definitions of ?German? and stereotypes of ?the critical European? vs. ?the uncritical Indian.? It only confirms the point.

On ?German Indology and National Socialism? see ?Jews and Hindus in Indology,? 24, n. 95, 26, n. 105, 27, n. 106, and 69, n. 199. On ?Andrew Nicholson? see ?The Real Threat to the Humanities Today,? 1?16. On ?J?rgen Hanneder? see ?5 in 10?Interview with Joydeep Bagchee? and ?Against Occidentalism: A Conversation with Alice Crary and Vishwa Adluri in The Nay Science.? On ?caricature? see ?Method and Racism in German Mah?bh?rata Studies,? 1?6. On ?voluminous publication? see ?Theses on Indology,? 9?10 (on Bronkhorst), 10 (on Hanneder), and 11?14 (on Witzel). On ?the European critical method of textual study? see Philology and Criticism, 63?65, and 99?100 (on Bronkhorst), 45?157 (on Bigger), 169?314 (on Gr?nendahl), 269?70 (on Slaje), 270?71 (on Hin?ber), 271?72 (on Fitzgerald), 272 (on Pollock), 320?36 (on Witzel), and 429?78 (on Brockington). On accepting ?any traditionally proposed interpretation [?] without much reflection? see ibid., 111?13 and 144?45 (on Austin), 21, 28?29, and 113?14 (on Fitzgerald), 270 (on Bronkhorst), 434?35 and 466, n. 118 (on Brockington), and the aforementioned pages in the Argument from Expertise again. See also ?Paradigm Lost,? 215?49 and 53?54 (on Jezic), 265, n. 12 (on Brockington), 282, n. 91 (on Witzel, Brockington, Malinar, and Szczurek), and 286, n. 104 (on Jezic, Szczurek, and Fitzgerald). See also Adluri, comments on Philipp A. Maas, ?Negotiating Efficiencies,? parts 1?2 and final response. On ?a very precise methodic research strategy [?] which goes back to earlier stages of European philosophy [philology?] and critical reflection? see Philology and Criticism, 319?20, 323?24, and 339?40. On ?the art of ignoring? or ?methodic ignorance? see ?Jews and Hindus in Indology,? 66, n. 193 (on Stache-Rosen, Franco, Schechtelich, Gr?nendahl, and Slaje). See also The Nay Science, 426, n. 232 (on Slaje) and 444, n. 37 (on Steinkellner) and the OBO entry on German Indology (on Hanneder). See also Philology and Criticism, 432?33 and 435?49 (on Brockington?s ignorance of the concept of a Venn diagram). On ?pure philological and linguistic research? see ?Indology: The Origins of Racism in the Humanities? 7 (on F. Schlegel) and 8?14 and 17, n. 43 (on A. W. Schlegel). On ?the research paradigm of philological and linguistic research? see Philology and Criticism, 326, nn. 7?8 (on Gr?nendahl), 326, nn. 9 (on Pollock and Jamison), and 327?28, nn. 17?18 (on Witzel). See also Adluri, review of Pollock, et al., eds., World Philology, 908?10 and Adluri, review of Malinar, The Bhagavadg?t?, 102?105. On the ?negativity? of ?European critical methods? see Philology and Criticism, 93, n. 24 and 313, nn. 359?60. See also Bagchee?s forthcoming review of Rabault-Feuerhahn, Archives of Origins in the International Journal of Hindu Studies. On the ?close relations? of German Indology with ?European orientalism? see the OBO entry ?European Constructions of Hinduism.?

(Except for ?European Constructions of Hinduism" all writings are available via Vishwa?s or my Academia page)

Dr. Joydeep Bagchee
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen
Academia.edu Homepage <https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/JoydeepBagchee>

The Nay Science<http://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-nay-science-9780199931361;jsessionid=94DFF6B197750DBE7C7E64A4FB8B28D2?cc=de&lang=en&>
Argument and Design<http://www.brill.com/products/book/argument-and-design-unity-mahabharata>
Reading the Fifth Veda<http://www.brill.com/reading-fifth-veda>
When the Goddess Was a Woman<http://www.brill.com/when-goddess-was-woman>
Transcultural Encounters between Germany and India<http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415844697/>
German Indology on OBO Hinduism<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>
___________________
What, then, is Philosophy?
Philosophy is the supremely precious.

Plotinus, Enneads I.III.5


On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 4:58 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Shyam Ranganathan,
This is a legitimate question, which merits an adequate response.
My "two cents":
You may already have looked at the bibliographical article ?German Indology? by Joydeep Bagchee (JB) (Oxford Bibliographies online: www.oxfordbibliographies.com<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com> under ?German Indology? or:
www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml<http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0147.xml>)
Since, as I pointed out elsewhere, ?Indology was more or less since its beginnings, end 18th ? beginning 19th century, mainly ?European? in character with intensive cooperations between French, British and German specialists, and has thus not only been sharing Oriental dreams but also a Nazi-nightmare,? the focus on ?German Indology? in JB?s article is itself problematic, especially because the author justifies it by invoking ?a distinct history and traditions? for German Indology, and ?unique concerns that set it apart from other forms of research into India? (?German Indology?, section ?Introduction?). Given this and other peculiar premises, the article contains nevertheless useful bibliographic references and brief evaluations (from the author?s point of view) of relevant publications, especially ? for your subject ? in two sections of the article: ?National Socialism? (topic: German Indology and National Socialism) and ?German Responses to National Socialist Indology.? Another relevant section is ?Orientalism Debate? which, in the view of the author (JB), as he expresses it in his evaluation of Halbfass?s India and Europe (1988), really starts with the publication of ?Pollock 1993? (see above). It is hence regrettable but not entirely surprising that the collective volume Beyond Orientalism (1997) is regarded by JB as a work which ?does not directly address the orientalist debate; it is really an overview of Halbfass?s work as a post-orientalist scholar.? In this section a reference is lacking to my review of this work which discusses and demonstrates how the work and in particular Halbfass?s dialogical contributions to it are indeed directly relevant to the ?Orientalism Debate? (?Orientalism, its critique, and beyond: review article of Beyond Orientalism, ed. by K. Preisendanz and E. Franco, Amsterdam 1997? (15 [1998]: 16) IIAS-Newsletter : Newsletter of the International Institute for Asian Studies (Leiden), no. 15. 1998 : https://www.academia.edu/6169112). With regard to Halbfass?s unsurpassed India and Europe (1988), the author (JB) thinks that it ?needs revision in light of newer discoveries? but fails to point out that several currently self-styled ?new discoveries? need, in fact, also revision in the light of Halbfass?s monumental achievement in comparative philosophy which is exceptionally well-founded both in ?Western? and in Indian philosophy.
I have in the meantime also updated my almost antique "conference report" (of the 29th DOT of the DMG in Leipzig, 1995)
www.academia.edu/7378413<http://www.academia.edu/7378413>
with two "Further Postscripts", the second of which containing a brief compte rendu of VA&JB's The Nay Science in which I address two "key-problems" that remain in this work, a heavy ?stone in the pond? of Indology and Asian Studies, in spite of the large number of reviews and rejoinders that have already appeared, and propose two "keys" to solve them.
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 18:26, Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear all,

Forgive me if this question has an obvious answer that I don't know.

I recall that in India and Europe, Halbfass discusses the development of ideas associated with National Socialism by those who took an interest in India. I'm wondering if there is anything classic on this topic. I'm trying to reference, in passing, the racist reception of India in Europe (the friendliness to "Arya" or "Swastika" for instance) where India was treated as a kind of European prehistory, and I'm not sure what to point to. I'm happy to point to Halbfass, though I was wondering if there was something specifically on this topic (a paper or book).

Thanks,

Shyam


--
Shyam Ranganathan
Department of Philosophy
York Center for Asian Research
York University, Toronto

shyam-ranganathan.info <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>

Hinduism: A Contemporary Philosophical Investigation<https://www.routledge.com/Hinduism-A-Contemporary-Philosophical-Investigation/Ranganathan/p/book/9781138909106>

The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics<http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>

Pata?jali`s Yoga S?tras<http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/> (Translation, Edition and Commentary)

Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin Concepts<https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>

Full List, Publications<https://philpapers.org/profile/22035>


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--

Jan E.M. Houben

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

Sciences historiques et philologiques

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>

johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--

Jan E.M. Houben

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

Sciences historiques et philologiques

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>

johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>

https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben


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From slindqui at mail.smu.edu  Wed Oct 31 19:21:04 2018
From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 19:21:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dating of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad
In-Reply-To: <CAPnSTegXDTLCXUuxLMWYbGfHZ1zKWDsPw-7aTiwiXaKsJXC_nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92ADE613-CF55-4903-B90A-ED7A7CE6EA86@smu.edu>

You can find some of my writings on the Upani?ads on academia.edu (https://smu.academia.edu/StevenLindquist), though I haven?t dealt specifically with the dating of the B?had.

My best,

Steven


STEVEN E. LINDQUIST, PH.D.
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES
DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES
____________________

Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU
PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275-0202
Email: slindqui at smu.edu<mailto:slindqui at smu.edu>
Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Reply-To: Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veerankp at gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:03 AM
To: Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com>, Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Dating of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad

there is a mention of Steven Lindquist's "lines of descent and dissent" published in "religions of south asia" 5. it is available in equinox website for a price.  Brian Black's "Rethinking the Upanishadic Vamshas" is also published in the same thing. I would be glad to read both. I hope you will help me.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:21 AM Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com<mailto:bclough9377 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Veenanarayana,

Please find attached the relevant chapters from Cohen's book on the Upanishads.

Best Wishes,
Brad

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:00 AM Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com<mailto:bclough9377 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Sure, I?ll try my best to get those chapters scanned and emailed to you later today.

Yours,
Brad




On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:57 AM Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veerankp at gmail.com<mailto:veerankp at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear sir, very much thanks.
I am afraid that I may not be able to soon (in a week, that is my time for it now) anywhere in India. Pl. Help me get the scanned images of these chapters if possible.

On 21 Oct 2018 11:54 pm, "Bradley Clough via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,

I would suggest consulting Signe Cohen?s edited volume (Routledge 2018) titled *The Upanisads: A Complete Guide*.  Chapters 2-4, all by Cohen, and Chapter 23, by Dermot Killingley, are particularly pertinent to this matter.

Brad Clough
The University of Montana
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Director of Academics
Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
Karnakata Samskrita University,
Pampa Mahakavi Road,
Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.


?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ???????????????
?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.)

http://www.ksu.ac.in<http://www.ksu.ac.in/>
http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat


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From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch  Wed Oct 31 20:14:00 2018
From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 20:14:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Dating of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad
In-Reply-To: <92ADE613-CF55-4903-B90A-ED7A7CE6EA86@smu.edu>
Message-ID: <7CCFC035-F361-4827-8C30-8EB8ABA714BC@unil.ch>

Since I am not at present in a position to consult recent literature on the date of the B?had?ra?yaka Upani?ad, I may superfluously draw attention to the discussion of the date of the Y?j?avalkya-K???a of that Upani?ad in my Greater Magadha (Brill 2007; Motilal Banarsidass 2013). I there present arguments to think that the grammarian "K?ty?yana knew this text [the YK] as an independent, recently composed work, as did Pata?jali some time after him". The creation of the B?had?ra?yaka Upani?ad as a whole, by bringing its three portions together, might have taken place a number of generations after Pata?jali. Pata?jali can be dated to the second half of the second century BCE.
Johannes Bronkhorst

On 31 Oct 2018, at 19:21, Lindquist, Steven via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

You can find some of my writings on the Upani?ads on academia.edu<http://academia.edu/> (https://smu.academia.edu/StevenLindquist), though I haven?t dealt specifically with the dating of the B?had.

My best,

Steven


STEVEN E. LINDQUIST, PH.D.
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, RELIGIOUS STUDIES
DIRECTOR, ASIAN STUDIES
____________________

Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences, SMU
PO Box 750202 | Dallas | TX | 75275-0202
Email: slindqui at smu.edu<mailto:slindqui at smu.edu>
Web: http://faculty.smu.edu/slindqui


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veerankp at gmail.com<mailto:veerankp at gmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:03 AM
To: Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com<mailto:bclough9377 at gmail.com>>, Indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Dating of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad

there is a mention of Steven Lindquist's "lines of descent and dissent" published in "religions of south asia" 5. it is available in equinox website for a price.  Brian Black's "Rethinking the Upanishadic Vamshas" is also published in the same thing. I would be glad to read both. I hope you will help me.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:21 AM Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com<mailto:bclough9377 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Veenanarayana,

Please find attached the relevant chapters from Cohen's book on the Upanishads.

Best Wishes,
Brad

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:00 AM Bradley Clough <bclough9377 at gmail.com<mailto:bclough9377 at gmail.com>> wrote:
Sure, I?ll try my best to get those chapters scanned and emailed to you later today.

Yours,
Brad




On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:57 AM Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veerankp at gmail.com<mailto:veerankp at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear sir, very much thanks.
I am afraid that I may not be able to soon (in a week, that is my time for it now) anywhere in India. Pl. Help me get the scanned images of these chapters if possible.

On 21 Oct 2018 11:54 pm, "Bradley Clough via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,

I would suggest consulting Signe Cohen?s edited volume (Routledge 2018) titled *The Upanisads: A Complete Guide*.  Chapters 2-4, all by Cohen, and Chapter 23, by Dermot Killingley, are particularly pertinent to this matter.

Brad Clough
The University of Montana
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Director of Academics
Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
Karnakata Samskrita University,
Pampa Mahakavi Road,
Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.


?? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ? ????????? ??? ???????? ??????? ? ?????? ???????????????
?????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????? (?.??.)

http://www.ksu.ac.in<http://www.ksu.ac.in/>
http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu  Wed Oct 31 21:00:54 2018
From: mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu (Mark McClish)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 21:00:54 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_gang_zag_and_puru=E1=B9=A3a?=
In-Reply-To: <20181030091013.Horde.BD3WLfvUtNQu5YDbs1d4Qq9@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <C8C29A0D-57F2-4118-B14F-889E3ED80E9E@northwestern.edu>

Thanks to Chris Haskett and Roland Steiner for clearing this matter up. I?ve passed the information along to my colleague.

Best,
Mark McClish

> On Oct 30, 2018, at 3:10 AM, Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 
> In his article
> 
> "A propos the Term gtsug lag" (first published in: Tibetan Studies. Proceedings of the 7th Seminar of the International Association for Tibetan Studies, Graz 1995, Vol. 1, ed. by Helmut Krasser, Michael Thorsten Much, Ernst Steinkellner, Helmut Tauscher, Wien 1997 {?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Philosophisch-historische Klasse, Denkschriften, 256. Band, pp. 347-354 = Michael Hahn: Schl?ssel zum Lehrbuch der klassischen tibetischen Schriftsprache und Beitr?ge zur tibetischen Wortkunde [Miscellanea etymologica tibetica I-VI], Marburg 2003 [Indica et Tibetica. 10a], pp. 131-143),
> 
> Michael Hahn gives the following explanation (Hahn 1997, p. 352 = Hahn 2003, p. 140):
> 
> "ga? zag, rendering pudgala 'individual being': literally '(that which is first) completed and then decaying'"
> 
> Obviously, ga? zag is an attempted etymological translation pf pudgala/pu?gala (p?r, "to fill, fulfill", ga? ba "full" + gal, "to drop; to vanish, disappear", zag pa = gzag pa > 'dzag pa "to drop, drip, trickle; to flow out").
> 
> 
> Best,
> Roland Steiner
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__listinfo.indology.info&d=DwIGaQ&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=0VMy4AVIL7ZKIaC4sH1Pm49PWgKJk0KFb86IpzVGC5E&m=xorGEQ7RXLOxqxAXYCfUg-OVIZbHKmIg_iNltmYWCOM&s=MRu6SBCTMQXxrKh5dbFpY83L3aTWCzHMMnSoiZi_HXc&e= (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 23:30:01 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 18 17:30:01 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about manuscript ownership
In-Reply-To: <CAGDOqfoWPYwg9Af8=S0v5PoJXAp6+fHh3L+LZTLRLDGrz3SMRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd06OHp2g=NcS8-gakYfjYzg9aKLy2wFT6GfPDU8n8SMA@mail.gmail.com>

Antonio nails it, I think (except we're talking about copyright, not
intellectual property rights).  Assuming there aren't any special
contractual agreements, the copyright of the photocopies belong to the
person who made the photocopies.  It would be the same with photos.  They
belong to the photographer, even if the original manuscript doesn't.

Jonathan raises some interesting special cases, but I am certain your
colleague can go ahead and use copies of the photocopies in a publication
without any risk of prosecution.

Best,
Dominik


On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 23:34, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hi Clemency,
>
> The photographs are the intellectual property of the researcher and can
> use them as they see fit - unless the terms of sale of the manuscript to
> the museum contained restraint of use clauses - which may or may not be
> legally enforceable in an Indian court.
>

> Kind regards,
> Antonio
> UQ
> Australia
>
>


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