From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Tue May  1 01:34:21 2018
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Tue, 01 May 18 01:34:21 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gUmU6IFF1ZXN0aW9uIG9uIFNhcmFzdmF0aSBhcyBhIG1hc2N1bGluZSB0aXRsZQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eYy01B36KbCmCOJr=oj3goDb13dhXfo7-kFMk-k3RkXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZh8BZLxMhjByV3O_mHL26jmUHHwEE1sD2=qQnsYYdwp0w@mail.gmail.com>

Maadhva Sanyasins have tirtha now a days. But in earlier days one who is a
peetadhipati was having title tirtha. Poornaprajna is the name after
sanyasa without tirtha. After pattabhiseka the name changed to Ananda tirtha

On Tue 1 May, 2018, 1:35 AM Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY, <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> There are Deekshaa naamas ending in Giri, Puree etc. too for Advaita
> sanyaasis.
>
> Maadhva sannyaasis have Teertha etc.
>
> Sarasvatee ,  Bhaaratee could be just codes not titles, nor parts of the
> name.
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2018, 1:09 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Herman.  Will look up the discussion in Wackernagel.  Best,
>>
>> Madhav
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Madhav,
>>> I have lost track of the reactions to your question.  Maybe someone has
>>> already drawn your attention to compounds like K?lid?sa, Lak?mivardhana,
>>> etc. discussed in Wackernagel and Debrunner, Altindische Grammatik, Band
>>> II, 2, pp. 304-6. If not, I do hereby.
>>> Herman
>>>
>>>
>>> Herman Tieken
>>> Stationsweg 58
>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Stationsweg+58&entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>> The Netherlands
>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Madhav
>>> Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
>>> *Verzonden:* zondag 29 april 2018 20:23
>>> *Aan:* Indology; Bharatiya Vidvat parishad; e-shabda-charcha-peeth
>>> *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Question on Sarasvati as a masculine title
>>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>>      This morning I came across this book, where the author's name is
>>> given as ?????????????????????, where the word "sarasvati" occurs with a
>>> short "i".  This "sarasvat?", as well as "Bh?rat?" is added in the title of
>>> many Sannyasins.  Sometimes I see the titles with a long "?", and here is
>>> an instance of a short "i".  I am wondering as to what is the common
>>> practice and the grammar of that practice, especially since normally
>>> feminine expressions are being used in male titles.  Any suggestions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Madhav Deshpande
>>> Campbell, California
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "???????????????????" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May  1 05:07:21 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 18 22:07:21 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Concluding_verses_of_M=C4=81dhava-=C5=9Aatakam?=
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfupYDRzJ7eMPsi-0FaE5prqFRU--azMyadQbMfwWBw=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Concluding verses of my M?dhava-?atakam:

?? ???????? ?????? ????????? ??? ?? ?
????? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ???????? ??????
There are nine doors to the body, but my mind has no door. Come and go, O
Kr???a, at all times as you please.

??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?
?? ???????? ?????????????? ?? ????????? ??????
M?dhava, O Friend, if you are always everywhere, what is the reason for the
delay in your arrival in my courtyard?

????? ? ?? ???? ? ??????? ???????? ?
????????????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????
Perhaps, it is not your fault that I don?t see you arriving in my house.
This physical eye of mine is not capable to see you.

??? ????????????? ???????? ?????? ??? ?
??? ??? ????????? ???????? ????? ????? ??????
O Lord, please instruct this poor person as to whatever way to have your
vision.

???????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?
?????, ???? ?????? ???????? ????????: ??????
Holding my hand, O Kr???a, quickly take me where you are. With my eyes
covered, I am unable to go [by myself].

???? ???? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?
??? ??????? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ??????
O Lord of Mathura, it is your own power of delusion that ties up my eyes. O
Lord, how can I see your true form that lies beyond my delusion?

????? ?? ??????????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?
?????????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??????
O Lord, the possessor of the power, free me, whose eyes are covered by your
own power of delusion. I am just a part of you. Why do you tie me with your
power of delusion?

???????????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?
??????????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ??????
This ignorance, that has no beginning, always covers my eyes. O Cosmic
Lord, why does this demoness always follow me?

???? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ?
?????????? ??????????? ??? ?????? ??????
Stop this demoness. Tell me, who created her? Perhaps, my sight enveloped
with darkness sees her, where she actually does not exist.

?????????????? ??????????? ? ???? ???? ??????????: ?
????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????
If you are not visible with my open eyes, then, O Lord, I will certainly
try to see you with my closed eyes.

????????????? ??????????? ??????? ?? ??????????? ?
????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????
With my eyes closed, O Kr???a, now your lotus-face, brightly shining,
becomes visible in the mirror of my heart.

?????????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ?????: ?
????????????????????? ???????? ????? ????? ??????
Seeing your self-illuminated face in my cloudless heart, even with my eyes
closed I will have true satisfaction of my heart.

??????????????? ??????? ???????? ?? ?????? ??? ?
???? ???????????????? ???? ?????? ??????
O Govinda, though I do not desire anything, I always wish to see you. If I
get that one thing, don?t give me anything else.

??????? ?????????? ??????????? ?? ?
???? ????, ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????
O Govind, Delight of Gokula, do become the delight of my heart. Why would I
then run anywhere else?

???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ?
? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ??????? ??????
If I am where you are, and you are where I am, then, O M?dhava, I have no
other destination anywhere in this world.

??? ??????? ???? ??? ???????? ????: ?
???? ?? ???? ?????????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??????
The sages always see your highest abode where exists the fountain of your
nectar. O M?dhava, please take me there.

???? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ???: ?
?????? ????????? ????????????? ?? ??????
Perhaps, let my mind not be preoccupied with going and coming. You yourself
just come back into my heart.

????? ??? ?? ????????????? ???????? ? ??????? ?
?????????? ???????? ???: ?????? ???: ??????
I have attained your friendship, now there is nothing else to be attained.
Having attained the wish-fulfilling jewel, why would anyone lust for a
glass-bead?

?????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ??????????: ?
?????? ??? ????? ???????? ???????? ???? ???????
My words were inspired by no one other than you, and I have used them to
please you. O M?dhava, please accept this offering given by me with love.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue May  1 10:40:00 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 01 May 18 10:40:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Akananuru Critical Edition and Akam 24
In-Reply-To: <9E7AF8DE-FB0E-47A2-BC66-5AFB54A02C45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B12506@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Dr Palaniappan,

I have nothing to contribute to the discussion of v?l??[r]pp?rppa?. However, I do have a comment on Wilden?s translation of the passage. My remark concerns her translation of the word ko?untu with ?splinters? (followed by a question mark). Actually, the image is quite clear. The bud of the paka??ai, or jalap, looks very much like a conch shell, both ending in what might with some imagination be called a plume. This is one of the meanings of ko?untu (see the Tamil Lexicon, which refers to the plume of the yak tail). It is this part of the conch shell which is left over after having sawn through the shell, as for bracelets one uses its wider part.

As to the construction v?l??-p-p?rpp??, a brahmin/priest/p?rpp??, with this difference that this is a brahmin/priest/p?rpp?? who does not sacrifice?, there is an article on this turn of phrase by Leen van Daalen in Sanskrit literature. Unfortunately I do not have the exact reference at hand. I think, though, that it was published in Indologica Taurinensia.

Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 30 april 2018 22:46
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Akananuru Critical Edition and Akam 24

In Indology posts long ago, I had suggested that the Tamil word p?rpp?? originally could mean ?priest? in general and not ?brahmin? per se and some of the references to p?rpp?? in Classical Tamil poems could refer to non-brahmin potter priests as in Akam 337 (http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-June/132646.html). Similarly I had questioned the reading ?ve??p p?rpp??? in Akam 24.1 which is usually interpreted/translated as a non-sacrificing brahmin. I had suggested that the original words probably referred to a potter priest. In connection with this, Eva Wilden?s recently published critical edition of the Ka?i??iy??ainirai (poems 1-120) part of the Akan????u provides important evidence for the case of potter priest in Akam 24.1.

According to Eva Wilden, the present available manuscripts are not more than about 300 years old. There have been two strands of transmission, a ?aiva one and a Vai??ava one. Wilden has given primary variants from both strands as part of the critical text. See attachment for Akam 24. On Akam 24.1, the Vai??ava strand has the reading v???r. The ?aiva strand has v???. But both strands are derived from one original. The difference in readings happened about 300 years ago. But irrespective of the manuscripts of the strand used, all the editors, Raghava Iyengar (RK), Vaiyapuri Pillai (VP), and Murray Rajam (ER), chose to go with the reading v???. This can be seen highlighted on p. 158. Although Eva Wilden finally gives only 'non-sacrificing brahmin? in the translation on page 160, personally, I believe that since the dominant belief at the time the strands diverged most likely was that p?rpp?? referred to a brahmin, v??a should have been the emended version similar to the choice made by the editors of published versions in the 20th century. The variant v???r should have been the retained original version since there could be no reason for one to insert the ?r? in v???r.

The V???rs are potter priests today in Tamil Nadu. Here is a description of the community http://tinyurl.com/ycdvsbkg. Tamil Lexicon entry for v???? (the singular form of v???r) shows the following:
?????? v????, n. < id. 1. A caste title; ??? ?????????????????. ????????? ??????? ?????? (S. I. I. ii, 10). 2. A title of persons belonging to the Kuyavar caste; ??????? ?????? ???????????. Mod.

Kuyavar are potters. Actually, as I have shown in earlier posts related to potters, the title v???? has been associated with chieftains, high officials, as well as potters in medieval inscriptions. The honorific/plural form of v???? is v???r. (The -?? or -?r is a PNG suffix and there is no negation involved here.) So while in modern times, the title could be a caste title, it would be simply a professional/lineage title in Classical Tamil times. In other instances in Classical Tamil, potters are mentioned as v??k? (v??+k?), where the first component again is the same as in v???r. So in the interlinear English version on p. 159, Wilden?s meaning of ?v??ar? as ?sacrifice-not-they (h.)? is not appropriate since there has been no known case of ?v???r? as a brahmin group. Even in the Cilappatik?ram, which talks about a brahmin group that has given up Vedic chanting and taken up music (Cil. 13.38-39), they are not called v???r. We already know of potter priests in Classical Tamil as in Na??i?ai 293. So I would suggest 'potter priest' as the meaning for v???rp p?rpp??. (Incidentally, according to Tamil Lexicon, one of the meanings of Ta. verb p?r is 'to worship'.)

Interestingly, ?v?r M?la?ki??r, the author of Akam 24, has authored a Pu?an????u poem (no. 166) about a brahmin who performs Vedic rites. So he must have known a brahmin priest as well as a potter priest. In Akam 24, by the use of v???rp p?rpp??, the poet makes it clear that the priest in question is a potter. We should also note that a female priestess in Pu?an????u 372 is called v??m?? (v??+maka?). This suggests that the potters officiated as priest (p?rpp??) in the Tamil society before that role came to be dominated by brahmins.

Thanks to the Vai??ava copyist who copied the manuscript about 300 years ago and Eva Wilden, who has produced the critical edition, we can reconstruct one important aspect of Tamil socio-religious history.

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From lw24 at soas.ac.uk  Tue May  1 18:06:27 2018
From: lw24 at soas.ac.uk (Lidia Wojtczak)
Date: Tue, 01 May 18 19:06:27 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Prof. Madhav Deshpande at SOAS, the University of Cambridge and the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies_amended
Message-ID: <CALo6i+t705KK8ETUAGiQdtVkanETZXSXZ=uWBcJ07abKw=aQrw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
the poster for Prof. Deshpande's visit to the UK needed to be slightly
amended. All the dates, times and places remain unchanged. Please find the
new version attached.
I look forward to seeing you in London, Oxford and Cambridge.
All the best,
Lidia Wojtczak


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue May  1 18:38:46 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 02 May 18 00:08:46 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gender, Power, and Rape when Conducting Research
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eZb4-5Sokz794tRz49Y24f3imbhwukDH=tqmVe7o0yKJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ea7Qnuaf7qbEEaE+mx6DYrDHo+o+hti63m6xnZQjs38KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Copy of the judgement so that we will be in a position to decide whether we
need to trace the sources of the line of argument in the judgement in
ancient Indian texts and so on:

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/160377045/

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I found the following English translation:
>
> From Manusmrti (Laws of Manu) Chapter III
>
> 20. Now listen to the brief description of the following eight
> marriage-rites used by the four castes (varna) which partly secure benefits
> and partly produce evil both in this life and after death.
>
>
>
> 21. They are the rite of Brahmana (Brahma), that of the gods (Daiva), that
> of the Rishis (Arsha), that of Prajapati (Prajapatya), that of the Asuras
> (Asura), that of the Gandharvas (Gandharva), that of the Rakshasas
> (Rakshasa), and that of the Pisakas (Paisaka).
>
>
>
> 22. Which is lawful for each caste (varna) and which are the virtues or
> faults of each (rite), all this I will declare to you, as well as their
> good and evil results with respect to the offspring.
>
>
>
> 23.One may know that the first six according to the order (followed above)
> are lawful for a Brahmana, the four last for a Kshatriya, and the same
> four, excepting the Rakshasa rite, for a Vaisya and a Sudra.
>
>
>
> 24. The sages state that the first four are approved (in the case) of a
> Brahmana, one, the Rakshasa rite in the case of a Kshatriya, and the Asura
> (marriage in that) of a Vaisya and of a Sudra.
>
>
>
> 25. But in these institutes of the sacred law, three of the five (last)
> are declared to be lawful and two unlawful; *the Paisaka and the Asura
> rites must never be used.*
>
>
>
> 26. For Kshatriyas those before mentioned two rites, the Gandharva and the
> Rakshasa, whether separate or mixed, are permitted by the sacred tradition.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think Prof. Slaje's
>>
>> It is well known that ?secret intercourse with a woman who is asleep,
>> drunk, or mentally deranged? is categorized as a form of ?marriage? in
>> ancient Indian law books.
>>
>> Manu (3.34) uses ?*upa-gam*? ? *inire feminam* (pw) / to approach a
>> woman sexually (MW) ? for the consummation of ?marriage?. *upa-gam* is a
>> common verb for ?having sex? in a general sense.
>>
>>
>> is a reference to pai??cha as a viv?ha.
>>
>> Attention may be paid to the name of the  viv?ha . pi??cha --> pai??cha
>>
>> Each of the  viv?has is described as found among a certain community.
>>
>> Does anyone have info on which community is described as following  pai??cha
>> as a viv?ha?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> There is also this:
>>>
>>> https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/mahmood-farooqui-and-his-acquit
>>> tal-in-rape-case-1803070
>>>
>>> And this:
>>>
>>> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/mahmood-farooqui-r
>>> ape-acquittal-extremely-well-decided-says-supreme-court-dism
>>> issing-appeal-against-earlier-verdict/articleshow/62566322.cms
>>>
>>> The Mah?tm? moreover stated:
>>>
>>> ?I have always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman
>>> against her will. [ . . . ] If she cannot meet the assailant's physical
>>> might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he succeeds
>>> in violating her. [ . . . ] I know that women are capable of throwing
>>> away their lives for a much lesser purpose. Only a few days ago a young
>>> girl of twenty burnt herself to death as she felt she was being persecuted
>>> for refusing to go in for ordinary studies. And she perished with such cool
>>> courage and determination. She ignited her sari with an ordinary oil-light
>>> and did not so much as raise a cry, so that the people in the neighbouring
>>> room were unaware of the happening until all was over.? *Harijan*, 25-8-1940
>>> and 1-9-1940.
>>>
>>> (Quoted from M. K. GANDHI, The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
>>> (Electronic Book). 98 volumes. New Delhi: Publications Division Government
>>> of India 1999. [http://www.gandhiserve.org/ cwmg/
>>> <http://gandhiserve.org/cwmg/> cwmg.html] 79, Nr. 130: 126 f).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Modern American and traditional Indian notions of rape, honour, consent
>>> and ?sexual interaction? (e.g., the exchange of kisses can count as such)
>>> seem to differ widely.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is well known that ?secret intercourse with a woman who is asleep,
>>> drunk, or mentally deranged? is categorized as a form of ?marriage? in
>>> ancient Indian law books.
>>>
>>> Manu (3.34) uses ?*upa-gam*? ? *inire feminam* (pw) / to approach a
>>> woman sexually (MW) ? for the consummation of ?marriage?. *upa-gam* is
>>> a common verb for ?having sex? in a general sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the given context, recent English translations use however ?to rape?
>>> as an equivalent (see Olivelle 2005, p. 110). Interpretations follow suit:
>>> ?Tantamount to rape? (Jamison in Olivelle & Davis (ed.), Hindu Law 2017, p.
>>> 130).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unless supported by unambiguous evidence, such readings should be
>>> treated as notionally anachronistic interpretations reflexively projected
>>> onto ancient India. What appears to be ?rape?, or to be ?tantamount to
>>> rape?, in the eyes of 21st century Western Indologists, does not
>>> necessarily represent the viewpoint of a (pre)modern Indian society.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With regard to its connotation, Doniger (1991: 46) and Michaels (2010:
>>> 49) offer neutral and therefore more faithful translations of *upa-gam*:
>>> ?to have sex with? and ?Beischlaf?.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, we are in dire need of a substantial investigation into the
>>> history of the notions of ?rape? as they prevailed in premodern India. This
>>> will help to understand and assess their (dis)continuation also in the
>>> thinking of today.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> WS
>>>
>>> -----------------------------
>>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
>>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
>>> D-99425 Weimar
>>> Deutschland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2018-04-26 15:27 GMT+02:00 Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> I would like to share this insightful, brave piece written by a PhD
>>>> student at Columbia University about her experience pursuing a rape charge
>>>> against Mahmood Farooqui in the Indian judicial system. I think it is
>>>> relevant for Indologists, especially for sending students to conduct
>>>> research abroad, dealing with our own instances of sexual misconduct in the
>>>> field, and thinking about gender and power dynamics.
>>>>
>>>> https://scroll.in/article/876788/healing-myself-a-woman-reco
>>>> unts-her-struggles-after-a-court-acquitted-the-man-she-accused-of-rape
>>>>
>>>> Audrey
>>>>
>>>> Audrey Truschke
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of History
>>>> Rutgers University-Newark
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From e.demichelis at ymail.com  Tue May  1 19:13:45 2018
From: e.demichelis at ymail.com (Elizabeth De Michelis)
Date: Tue, 01 May 18 19:13:45 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Launch of the Journal of Yoga Studies (JoYS)
In-Reply-To: <182293552.4765568.1525202025351.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <182293552.4765568.1525202025351@mail.yahoo.com>

(with apologies for any cross-posting)

Dear List Members,
I am delighted to announce the official launch of the Journal of Yoga Studies or JoYS.

I and the other founding members (Jason Birch,  Matthew Clark,?Jacqueline Hargreaves and Suzanne Newcombe) have been working very hard over the last 18 months in order to bring this publication to fruition. 

Please find the Journal description below (copied from the website). You will find further information in the inaugural Editorial. The first two articles (by Philip Deslippe and Seth Powell) were uploaded today.

Please note also the launch events (poster in ANNOUNCEMENTS) due to take place next week in Kyoto, London and Delhi.

I take this chance to thank all the colleagues, institutions and friends who have supported and continue to support this project. I also want to extend a special 'thank you' to members of JoYS' Adisory and Editorial Boards.

We hope that you will find our Journal of interest! We look forward to high quality, engaging submissions.

Please feel free to spread the word.
With best regards,

Elizabeth De Michelis
(JoYS Senior Editor and Administration Manager)


++++++++++++++++++++++ JOURNAL DESCRIPTION ++++++++++++++++

The?Journal of Yoga Studies (JoYS)?is a peer-reviewed, open access e-journal committed to publishing the highest quality academic research and critical discussions on all topics related to the study of all forms of yoga, from ancient to contemporary, across multiple humanities and social sciences disciplines. Authors will retain copyright of their articles.

JoYS aims to serve the needs of this emerging field of study by offering a forum for reporting on research findings, discoveries, theoretical discussions and critical debates in the field, and for disseminating critical editions, translations, book reviews and other key reference materials.

As the ?study of Yoga? is a broad and varied subject, the scope of JoYS is inclusive of all forms of rigorous intellectual activity including but not limited to Religious Studies, Modern, Medieval and Classical History of South Asia, Indology, Philology, Philosophy, Anthropology, Sociology, Political Studies, Literature and Arts.

To start with, papers will be published on a rolling-basis throughout the year in electronic form only (downloadable PDF). A yearly collection of papers will form a single volume of JoYS. On occasion, a number of papers may be gathered together under a specific thematic heading (article sets).

The scope of JoYS is limited only by the expertise of its editors and peer-reviewers. Guest editors may be invited to oversee the production of a JoYS article set themed towards a specific topic or subject of interest.

JoYS published its two?inaugural articles on 1st May?2018.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed May  2 06:12:30 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 02 May 18 11:42:30 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gender, Power, and Rape when Conducting Research
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ea7Qnuaf7qbEEaE+mx6DYrDHo+o+hti63m6xnZQjs38KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZSStB2ftNMZ9AG+oBTOB7VV++cjY461JJXq6y+UPspNw@mail.gmail.com>

Did we note that the two most important epics of the Indian nation,
Ramayana and Mahabharata have the offences of abducting a woman to force
her for marriage/sex and to disrobe a woman in full court respectively are
the key events leading to /contributing to the wars and in both cases the
offenders are punished with death ? In both cases the offenders are
confronted by the victims in an aggressive and bold language.

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 12:08 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Copy of the judgement so that we will be in a position to decide whether
> we need to trace the sources of the line of argument in the judgement in
> ancient Indian texts and so on:
>
> https://indiankanoon.org/doc/160377045/
>
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I found the following English translation:
>>
>> From Manusmrti (Laws of Manu) Chapter III
>>
>> 20. Now listen to the brief description of the following eight
>> marriage-rites used by the four castes (varna) which partly secure benefits
>> and partly produce evil both in this life and after death.
>>
>>
>>
>> 21. They are the rite of Brahmana (Brahma), that of the gods (Daiva),
>> that of the Rishis (Arsha), that of Prajapati (Prajapatya), that of the
>> Asuras (Asura), that of the Gandharvas (Gandharva), that of the Rakshasas
>> (Rakshasa), and that of the Pisakas (Paisaka).
>>
>>
>>
>> 22. Which is lawful for each caste (varna) and which are the virtues or
>> faults of each (rite), all this I will declare to you, as well as their
>> good and evil results with respect to the offspring.
>>
>>
>>
>> 23.One may know that the first six according to the order (followed
>> above) are lawful for a Brahmana, the four last for a Kshatriya, and the
>> same four, excepting the Rakshasa rite, for a Vaisya and a Sudra.
>>
>>
>>
>> 24. The sages state that the first four are approved (in the case) of a
>> Brahmana, one, the Rakshasa rite in the case of a Kshatriya, and the Asura
>> (marriage in that) of a Vaisya and of a Sudra.
>>
>>
>>
>> 25. But in these institutes of the sacred law, three of the five (last)
>> are declared to be lawful and two unlawful; *the Paisaka and the Asura
>> rites must never be used.*
>>
>>
>>
>> 26. For Kshatriyas those before mentioned two rites, the Gandharva and
>> the Rakshasa, whether separate or mixed, are permitted by the sacred
>> tradition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think Prof. Slaje's
>>>
>>> It is well known that ?secret intercourse with a woman who is asleep,
>>> drunk, or mentally deranged? is categorized as a form of ?marriage? in
>>> ancient Indian law books.
>>>
>>> Manu (3.34) uses ?*upa-gam*? ? *inire feminam* (pw) / to approach a
>>> woman sexually (MW) ? for the consummation of ?marriage?. *upa-gam* is
>>> a common verb for ?having sex? in a general sense.
>>>
>>>
>>> is a reference to pai??cha as a viv?ha.
>>>
>>> Attention may be paid to the name of the  viv?ha . pi??cha --> pai??cha
>>>
>>> Each of the  viv?has is described as found among a certain community.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have info on which community is described as following  pai??cha
>>> as a viv?ha?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is also this:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/mahmood-farooqui-and-his-acquit
>>>> tal-in-rape-case-1803070
>>>>
>>>> And this:
>>>>
>>>> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/mahmood-farooqui-r
>>>> ape-acquittal-extremely-well-decided-says-supreme-court-dism
>>>> issing-appeal-against-earlier-verdict/articleshow/62566322.cms
>>>>
>>>> The Mah?tm? moreover stated:
>>>>
>>>> ?I have always held that it is physically impossible to violate a woman
>>>> against her will. [ . . . ] If she cannot meet the assailant's
>>>> physical might, her purity will give her the strength to die before he
>>>> succeeds in violating her. [ . . . ] I know that women are capable of
>>>> throwing away their lives for a much lesser purpose. Only a few days
>>>> ago a young girl of twenty burnt herself to death as she felt she was being
>>>> persecuted for refusing to go in for ordinary studies. And she perished
>>>> with such cool courage and determination. She ignited her sari with an
>>>> ordinary oil-light and did not so much as raise a cry, so that the people
>>>> in the neighbouring room were unaware of the happening until all was over.?
>>>> *Harijan*, 25-8-1940 and 1-9-1940.
>>>>
>>>> (Quoted from M. K. GANDHI, The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
>>>> (Electronic Book). 98 volumes. New Delhi: Publications Division Government
>>>> of India 1999. [http://www.gandhiserve.org/ cwmg/
>>>> <http://gandhiserve.org/cwmg/> cwmg.html] 79, Nr. 130: 126 f).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Modern American and traditional Indian notions of rape, honour, consent
>>>> and ?sexual interaction? (e.g., the exchange of kisses can count as such)
>>>> seem to differ widely.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is well known that ?secret intercourse with a woman who is asleep,
>>>> drunk, or mentally deranged? is categorized as a form of ?marriage? in
>>>> ancient Indian law books.
>>>>
>>>> Manu (3.34) uses ?*upa-gam*? ? *inire feminam* (pw) / to approach a
>>>> woman sexually (MW) ? for the consummation of ?marriage?. *upa-gam* is
>>>> a common verb for ?having sex? in a general sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the given context, recent English translations use however ?to rape?
>>>> as an equivalent (see Olivelle 2005, p. 110). Interpretations follow suit:
>>>> ?Tantamount to rape? (Jamison in Olivelle & Davis (ed.), Hindu Law 2017, p.
>>>> 130).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unless supported by unambiguous evidence, such readings should be
>>>> treated as notionally anachronistic interpretations reflexively projected
>>>> onto ancient India. What appears to be ?rape?, or to be ?tantamount to
>>>> rape?, in the eyes of 21st century Western Indologists, does not
>>>> necessarily represent the viewpoint of a (pre)modern Indian society.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With regard to its connotation, Doniger (1991: 46) and Michaels (2010:
>>>> 49) offer neutral and therefore more faithful translations of *upa-gam*:
>>>> ?to have sex with? and ?Beischlaf?.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually, we are in dire need of a substantial investigation into the
>>>> history of the notions of ?rape? as they prevailed in premodern India. This
>>>> will help to understand and assess their (dis)continuation also in the
>>>> thinking of today.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> WS
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------
>>>> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
>>>> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
>>>> D-99425 Weimar
>>>> Deutschland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2018-04-26 15:27 GMT+02:00 Audrey Truschke via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to share this insightful, brave piece written by a PhD
>>>>> student at Columbia University about her experience pursuing a rape charge
>>>>> against Mahmood Farooqui in the Indian judicial system. I think it is
>>>>> relevant for Indologists, especially for sending students to conduct
>>>>> research abroad, dealing with our own instances of sexual misconduct in the
>>>>> field, and thinking about gender and power dynamics.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://scroll.in/article/876788/healing-myself-a-woman-reco
>>>>> unts-her-struggles-after-a-court-acquitted-the-man-she-accused-of-rape
>>>>>
>>>>> Audrey
>>>>>
>>>>> Audrey Truschke
>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>> Department of History
>>>>> Rutgers University-Newark
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From ambapradeep at gmail.com  Wed May  2 09:14:13 2018
From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni)
Date: Wed, 02 May 18 14:44:13 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Software Expo and Demo Sessions at WSC
Message-ID: <CAFffahDPMgpBFkvv4Md_up1pn+oLBo_SFjpL=+d+s0LVh=QJTg@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear members,

Software Expo and Demo sessions have been announced as part of *SECTION 19,
???????? ????????????????? ? (Computational Sanskrit & the Digital
Humanities)*  at World Sanskrit Conference at Vancouver.

For more details, visit https://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/academics.

If you wish to participate in these demo sessions or in the software expo,
please contact the WSC Secretariat directly at wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca before
the deadline of May 9, 2018.


With kind regards,
Amba Kulkarni


-- 

? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.

Professor & Head
Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad
Prof. C.R. Rao Road
Hyderabad-500 046

(91) 040 23133802(off)

http://scl.samsaadhanii.in <http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba>
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl
http://tdil-dc.in/scl <http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl>
<http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl>
http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu May  3 04:36:32 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 02 May 18 21:36:32 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze6U+9vxaT0XQ_26vCL_geixxsojXdUSsyuhA+p+V6j9A@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with Krishna verses. [Just can't seem to stop]

????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ??????????: ?
????????????????????? ??? ?????? ????????? ??
O Govinda, let the evil logicians debate whether you exist or do not exist.
What is the purpose with logic for those who know the nectar of your
sweetness?

??????? ??? ???????? ??????? ??????????? ?
???????? ??? ???????? ?????????????? ???: ??
[O Logician,] if your inference is that God does exist, they your fault is
that you have proven what is already established. If your inference is that
God does not exist, how can you disprove what is already established?

??? ?????????: ????? ?????????? ???????: ?
????? ??? ???????: ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??
If the sound of the flute [of Kr???a] reaches your ears, what is the point
of exertion in logic? If Govinda is in your heart, what would you gain with
logic?

??????? ??? ??????????????????????? ?
?????? ??????? ?? ????? ???????????? ???? ??
How can logic steal away the Stealer of Yoghurt [= Kr???a] from the banks
of Yamun?? How can logic free him from the good bonds of [his mother]
Ya?od??

??????? ????? ??? ? ?????? ? ?????????? ?
?? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????: ??
The killer of [the demoness] P?tan? is not scared of the logician. The
Pacifier of [the demon] Madhu is capable of pacifying your logic.

?? ?? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ?
???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ??
O you Logician, you are so dumb. Why are you running away from Govinda?
While you are trying to prove his non-existence, he will offer you success.

?? ?? ??????? ?? ????????? ???? ??????? ?
???? ???????????????????? ?? ?????????? ??
O Logician, don?t be scared. Just once visit Gokula. The Great Thief over
there will steal away your logic.

???????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????????? ?????? ?
??????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????????????????? ??
The one you are trying to prove to be non-existent, you can observe him in
Gokula. How can your logic be stronger than your direct vision.

??? ????????????????? ???? ? ????????? ?
????????? ????: ???????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??
Due to your strong pride in logic, if you are not inclined to go [to
Gokula], the kind-hearted M?dhava himself will grant you a vision with love.

????????? ????????????????? ?? ???????? ?
?????????? ?????????? ????????????? ??????? ??
Like a person with eyes who acts like a blind, like a person with ears who
acts like a deaf, and a person, though touching, does not feel the touch, O
Logician, you are out of luck.

???? ???? ???? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ?
????????? ???????????????? ????? ??????? ????: ??
Go wherever you wish trying to prove whatever you want. M?dhava will go on
his own to free you from the snake of logic.

?????????????????? ???????? ??????? ???: ?
??????? ??????????? ???? ?????? ???: ??
The mind of the learned people deeply infused with the poison of logic
regains life by singing the songs of Govinda.

?????????????????? ???????? ???? ?? ??? ?
????????: ???????????? ?????? ????????????: ??
O friend, do not place your trust in unfounded logic. The Cosmic Lord,
having assumed the form of a child, is well-established in Gokula.

? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ???? ?????????: ?
???????????? ?? ?????? ??????????????? ???? ??
Even if you were a good logician, your logic does not save you. What then
to speak of a bad logician? How can bad logic save him?

?????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?
??? ????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????????? ??
Set aside your logic, O Logician. Let your logic entertain your mind. [But]
board the boat of Kr???a, and save yourself from the delusion of your mind.

???? ?????? ???? ?? ???: ????? ??? ?
????????? ?? ?????????? ???? ??????? ??
In reference to Lord Kr???a who is beyond [logic], your mind should not be
lead by logic. Let Kr???a remove the darkness of delusion that has settled
in your eye.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From elena.mucciarelli at indo.uni-tuebingen.de  Thu May  3 13:03:38 2018
From: elena.mucciarelli at indo.uni-tuebingen.de (Elena Mucciarelli Tuebingen)
Date: Thu, 03 May 18 16:03:38 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Post-Doctoral Stipend at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, academic year 2018-2019, in South Indian studies
Message-ID: <d14e7015-e7e9-49ab-855e-50d7ec501a4d@Spark>

Dear members of the list, dear colleagues,

We are happy to announce a one-year post-doctoral stipend, possibly renewable, beginning October 1, 2018, at the Hebrew University in the context of a European Research Council grant on "The New Ecology of Expressive Modes in Early Modern South India.?

This five-year grant, led by Prof. (Emer.) David Shulman, is based on the working assumption that all the major expressive domains-- literature, music, dance, theater, painting, sculpture, architecture-- and their associated erudite and theoretical treatises generated in southern India during the sixteenth to eighteenth centuries belong to a single multi-lingual and multi-cultural eco-system and need to be studied together, along with their particular social and political contexts. We will be reading intensively in all the major languages of the south--Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi-- as well as in the trans-local languages of Sanskrit and Persian.
?Along with the ongoing sessions in the core group of young scholars dealing with the various texts and disciplines, there will be workshops, conferences, seminars, and field expeditions to south India.

We are looking for highly trained scholars within five years of the approval of their Ph.D. dissertation, with knowledge of Sanskrit and at least one south Indian language and its classical traditions.

The fellowship is generously funded. Applications (CV, list of publications, brief statement of scholarly focus and goals, and one letter of recommendation) should be sent to the following address: ?ddshulman at yahoo.com

Best Wishes,
Elena Mucciarelli


____________________

Dr. Elena Mucciarelli
Research Fellow

The Martin Buber Society of Fellows in the Humanities and Social Sciences
Mandel Building, Room 342.
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel
Tel: 00972 (0) 2-5880414



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From lw24 at soas.ac.uk  Thu May  3 13:30:02 2018
From: lw24 at soas.ac.uk (Lidia Wojtczak)
Date: Thu, 03 May 18 14:30:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 10) at SOAS
Message-ID: <CALo6i+u-QkitwooJKP7vPhgucUeCkzD_p9hhufv6VUELtUGctg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
this is a gentle reminder that the deadline for abstract submission
for the International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 10)
at SOAS is coming up.

If you are thinking about submitting an abstract, we strongly
encourage you to do so by May 6th at:
iigrsuk at googlemail.com

If you are teaching at an institution, we would be grateful if you
could spread this information among your students. More information
can be found in the attached poster and online:
https://iigrs.wordpress.com/

Best wishes,
Lidia Wojtczak
SOAS University of London
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu May  3 17:14:56 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 03 May 18 10:14:56 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Surprising publisher of a Sanskrit text
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzet9pr=6RA+vPb+jVDYfaDtKvg7-mMw7+GogjivFqb21w@mail.gmail.com>

This morning I came across this edition of A???vakra G?t? published by
Shareef, the son of Saleh Muhammad Noorani.  Any information about this
person:

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Fri May  4 01:34:28 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Thu, 03 May 18 21:34:28 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article needed
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFtS3uFMgZzHEhWVu+QCLbTbTtVkA-5j6moU7umunDC0A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

If anyone has a pdf of the article Budha-Kau?ika's R?marak??stotra. A
Contribution to the Study of Sanskrit Devotional Poetry. Vienna 1983 by
Gudrun Buhnemann and could send it to me I'd greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks,
Harry Spier


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From manjushree42 at gmail.com  Fri May  4 03:38:36 2018
From: manjushree42 at gmail.com (Manjushree Hegde)
Date: Fri, 04 May 18 09:08:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Masters in Philosophy: Invitation for applications.
Message-ID: <CANrUQiThybbfLczaV6CLbTA6pq6Vca+=xZy-B4Dh9BcykcDF1w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,

We are pleased to share that Amrita Darshanam, Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham,
is inviting applications for M.A candidates for *Philosophy* this year.



 The core and elective courses of the program is structured to acquaint the
student with Indian and Western philosophical thought ? through four
semesters, the student will methodically be introduced to Indian and
European metaphysics, and logic and epistemology. Electives include a
variety of topics like philosophy of tantra, advaita ved?nta, aesthetics,
South Indian philosophers (Tamil and Malayalam), etc. A detailed course
plan can be found here:
https://www.amrita.edu/admissions/ma-philosophy-2018/curriculum



The last date for applications for all Ph.Ds is *30 June 2018.*



Kindly refer to the brochure for more information, or visit the website
<https://www.amrita.edu/news/amrita-darshanam-invites-applications-ma-philosophy-admissions-2018>

Best,

Manjushree Hegde.


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri May  4 14:11:36 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 04 May 18 07:11:36 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More verses on Krishna and Tarkika
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcKpLeCyqS72M9pGNhTkHCkOW2CE4EZsf04RawYKqQcFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here are further verses on Krishna and Tarkika:

The Logician says:

??? ???????? ????? ???????? ??????? ?

???? ?????????????????? ?????????? ??

If I give up my logic, which has been the guide of my intelligence, then
who will prevent it from going astray and from a disaster?


Reply:

??? ???????? ???????: ?????????? ?????? ?

??? ???? ??? ????????? ?????? ?? ??

Govinda himself is the driver on the chariot of Arjuna.  Tell me how his
chariot can go astray.


???? ?? ?????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ?

???? ??????? ??????? ???????: ??

O Logician, instantly make him the driver of the chariot of your mind.  That
Ocean of Compassion will prevent it from going astray.


??? ????????????? ??????? ???????: ?

????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ??

If Kr???a were to become the guide of your ship, he will most certainly
take you across the formidable ocean of life.


? ?? ??????? ??????????????? ??????? ??? ???? ?

??????????????? ??????????? ????: ??

O Logician, your logic is incapable of knowing the highest abode.  A dwarf,
even if he raises his arms, is incapable of getting the fruit of a coconut
tree.


????????? ??? ??????? ??? ????????? ????? ?

? ??? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ??

If your logic is insufficient to know the abode that is beyond logic, that
does not take away the success of logic in other areas.


??????????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ?

????: ???????? ??????? ? ??????????: ??

Therefore, O Logician, don?t be depressed about the ability of your logic.  Let
your logic be your toy, but not the driver of the chariot of your mind.


????????????????????? ??????: ??? ??? ?

????: ????????????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??

The chariots of mind do not reach that highest abode of Vi??u, but M?dhava
can become the driver of your chariot of your mind and take it there.


??????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ?

???????? ???????????? ???????? ??? ???? ??

Enough of this debate, you poor soul, the best among logicians.  After
hearing about the friendship of M?dhava, you act as you please.


???? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??: ?

??????????????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??

Go your on way, O Logician.  May you be fine.  Proclaim that you killed God.
But we know the relative strength of God and Logician.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri May  4 15:34:43 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 04 May 18 15:34:43 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gTW9yZSB2ZXJzZXMgb24gS3Jpc2huYSBhbmQgVGFya2lrYQ==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcKpLeCyqS72M9pGNhTkHCkOW2CE4EZsf04RawYKqQcFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb8PCrHJkZQnt0V9QzuhtPdrweutA661Os2EJ6vr0e_Og@mail.gmail.com>

Where has this mahaa bhakta Maadhava been all the while?

Oh. you university career! You are the culprit! Thanks retirement! You gave
us our Maadhava back!

We the logic-ridden are the adhikaaris for this rasaananda.

On Fri, May 4, 2018, 7:42 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Here are further verses on Krishna and Tarkika:
>
> The Logician says:
>
> ??? ???????? ????? ???????? ??????? ?
>
> ???? ?????????????????? ?????????? ??
>
> If I give up my logic, which has been the guide of my intelligence, then
> who will prevent it from going astray and from a disaster?
>
>
> Reply:
>
> ??? ???????? ???????: ?????????? ?????? ?
>
> ??? ???? ??? ????????? ?????? ?? ??
>
> Govinda himself is the driver on the chariot of Arjuna.  Tell me how his
> chariot can go astray.
>
>
> ???? ?? ?????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ?
>
> ???? ??????? ??????? ???????: ??
>
> O Logician, instantly make him the driver of the chariot of your mind.  That
> Ocean of Compassion will prevent it from going astray.
>
>
> ??? ????????????? ??????? ???????: ?
>
> ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ??
>
> If Kr???a were to become the guide of your ship, he will most certainly
> take you across the formidable ocean of life.
>
>
> ? ?? ??????? ??????????????? ??????? ??? ???? ?
>
> ??????????????? ??????????? ????: ??
>
> O Logician, your logic is incapable of knowing the highest abode.  A
> dwarf, even if he raises his arms, is incapable of getting the fruit of a
> coconut tree.
>
>
> ????????? ??? ??????? ??? ????????? ????? ?
>
> ? ??? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ??
>
> If your logic is insufficient to know the abode that is beyond logic, that
> does not take away the success of logic in other areas.
>
>
> ??????????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????????? ?
>
> ????: ???????? ??????? ? ??????????: ??
>
> Therefore, O Logician, don?t be depressed about the ability of your logic.
> Let your logic be your toy, but not the driver of the chariot of your mind.
>
>
> ????????????????????? ??????: ??? ??? ?
>
> ????: ????????????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??
>
> The chariots of mind do not reach that highest abode of Vi??u, but
> M?dhava can become the driver of your chariot of your mind and take it
> there.
>
>
> ??????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ?
>
> ???????? ???????????? ???????? ??? ???? ??
>
> Enough of this debate, you poor soul, the best among logicians.  After
> hearing about the friendship of M?dhava, you act as you please.
>
>
> ???? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??: ?
>
> ??????????????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??
>
> Go your on way, O Logician.  May you be fine.  Proclaim that you killed
> God.  But we know the relative strength of God and Logician.
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Campbell, California
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat May  5 02:05:48 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 04 May 18 20:05:48 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Petition to complete the New Catalogus Catalogorum
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcFW9zhR=GczAdj0ywPZ5DVYaGeed=zkCPWvyzoh8kRwg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends,

The NCC is two or three volumes short of completion.  As many of you will
know, the project started publication in 1949 at the University of Madras
under the direction of Prof. V. Raghavan, and has continued - with ups and
downs - until the publication of volume thirty-nine in 2015.  With the
retirement of its energetic editor, Prof. S. Dash, publication has
stopped.  Volume thirty-nine ended with the titles "suhotrasa?hit?" and
"suhodita," so you can see how close the project is to completion.

I am writing to the Vice Chancellor of the University of Madras to
encourage him to bring all his energy to bear in order to complete the
publication of the NCC.  The end is tantalizingly close.

The draft text of my letter is below.  If you would like to add your name
as a signatory to the letter, please write to me directly at the address
wujastyk+ncc at gmail.com with your name and affiliation.  I will do the rest.

Sincerely,
Dominik Wujastyk


?
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?


?Draft:

Dear Professor Duraisamy,

I am writing to you in my capacity as a university professor specialising
in Sanskrit and the history of Indian literature. Several professional
colleagues have joined me in adding their names to this letter, below.

Throughout my career, I have referred very frequently to the *New Catalogus
Catalogorum: an Alphabetical Register of Sanskrit and Allied Works and
Authors*, published by your university since 1949 and edited and written by
the great Prof. V. Raghavan, Prof. C. Kunhan Raja, and many distinguished
scholars up to Prof. Siniruddha Dash.

The NCC, as the work is known amongst lovers of Sanskrit literature, is the
only complete, unified survey of all Sanskrit and Prakrit authors and works
that exists. It is a unique work and a golden key to India's heritage. It
is also the only comprehensive guide to the wealth of manuscripts in India
and abroad that transmit this precious heritage. Through the NCC, it is
possible to find all the known manuscripts of such works as the *?gveda*,
the *Bhagavadg?t?* and the *R?m?yana*, Caraka's great encyclopedia of
medicine and ?ryabha?a's reflections on mathematics and astronomy. Anybody
who speaks authoritatively about Indian literature does so because they
have been able to use the NCC to achieve certainty about the facts.

By supporting this great project through the twentieth- and now
twenty-first centuries, the University of Madras has performed one of the
most significant services to India's literary heritage of the last hundred
years.

Over the forty years of my career, I have visited the Sanskrit department
in Chennai as often as I could, to see how the NCC was coming along, and to
lend my encouragement and support to the project. I vividly remember
meeting Prof. E. R. Rama Bai about twenty years ago. At that time, she
despaired of ever seeing the project completed, although she heroically
produced volume fourteen.

Today, against all expectations, the NCC is almost complete. Since 1949,
the University of Madras has published thirty-nine volumes of the NCC. No
fewer than twenty-five of these were published under the editorship of
Prof. Siniruddha Dash between 2007 and 2015. Unfortunately, since Prof.
Dash's retirement a few years ago, publishing has ceased.

I am writing to you today to ask you to give your attention to this
monumental project and to do whatever you can to bring it to completion.
Only two or three volumes remain to be published! The end is very much
within sight. It would be a terrible shame if a project of this magnitude
at the University of Madras that has been running since 1949 were to fall
short of completion when the end is so very close.

I do not know what means are available to you for completing this project,
or what your ideas might be. Outsourcing the project just for this final
step may be necessary.

If I can be of any assistance in helping NCC to fulfilment, please tell me
what I can do! Quite apart from its intrinsic scholarly importance, the
project is of national and international significance as an icon of Indian
scholarship.

We, the undersigned, hope and trust that the University of Madras will be
able to complete the NCC project soon.
?

??


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From ajay.rao at utoronto.ca  Sat May  5 13:00:45 2018
From: ajay.rao at utoronto.ca (Ajay Rao)
Date: Sat, 05 May 18 13:00:45 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Postdoctoral Fellowship at the University of Toronto
Message-ID: <E260DF95-E80A-49A7-B704-2F6E1F0B05F1@utoronto.ca>

We would be grateful if you could circulate this announcement for a new postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Toronto to any interested applicants. The two-year position begins in September 2018.

Thank you,

Ajay Rao
University of Toronto

The Centre for South Asian Civilizations at the University of Toronto invites applications for a postdoctoral fellow in South Asian Studies. The appointment will begin on September 1, 2018. The post is for a period of 2 years with the possibility of extension after successful review.

Candidates working in any field of South Asian Studies are encouraged to apply. The successful applicant will have demonstrated expertise in one or more research languages and be able to work with primary source archives.

The Centre for South Asian Civilizations is housed at the University of Toronto Mississauga and is dedicated to interdisciplinary and critical engagement with the languages, cultures, religions, and histories of South Asia. While the primary responsibility of the postdoctoral fellow is research, the fellow will also be involved in Centre for South Asian Civilizations programming and will help foster intellectual community at the University of Toronto Mississauga. The position also includes the teaching of one 12-week course per academic year. The salary will be $42,000, which includes the teaching stipend.

Applicants must have successfully defended their doctoral theses by the commencement of the post, and no earlier than 2015. Applicants cannot hold a tenure-track or continuing faculty position at a college or university. Applicants may be citizens of any country, and graduates from any university. Successful international applicants must meet all Canadian immigration requirements.

The application deadline is June 11, 2018. Shortlisted candidates will be interviewed via Skype. Decisions will be made by July 2018.

For general inquiries, please contact csac at utoronto.ca<mailto:csac at utoronto.ca>

All qualified applicants are encouraged to apply by sending their dossier (consisting of cover letter, CV, writing sample, 1-page research statement, and 1-page statement on teaching and community engagement at a public university) with a specification in the subject line of ?CSAC PostDoc? to csac at utoronto.ca<mailto:csac at utoronto.ca>  Arrangements should also be made for two letters of reference to be submitted separately to this email address.

The University of Toronto is strongly committed to diversity within its community and especially welcomes applications from visible minority group members, women, Aboriginal persons, persons with disabilities, members of sexual minority groups, and others who may contribute to the further diversification of ideas.


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From ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il  Sat May  5 14:16:51 2018
From: ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il (Ofer Peres)
Date: Sat, 05 May 18 14:16:51 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pongu Sani
Message-ID: <CABcuftTreiWX2Lmr08UppzQ6URywUcDWv99SV0wqztJ+jiUuYg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I would appreciate any information on the history\origins of the south
Indian astrological concept "pongu sani" (benevolent Saturn).


Beat wishes,

Ofer Peres.


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat May  5 15:05:52 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 05 May 18 09:05:52 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Petition to complete the New Catalogus Catalogorum
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcFW9zhR=GczAdj0ywPZ5DVYaGeed=zkCPWvyzoh8kRwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdbXsk38RQ7O=jH93S3Fc-8BikyWJh0xD5aMfqQLdV7ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

A big thank you to those of you who have sent me your names for inclusion
in the petition.  To anyone else wanting to be included, just send me an
email at wujastyk+ncc at gmail.com (sorry! last time, I accidentally tagged
that as a website instead of an email address).

?
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?
??


On 4 May 2018 at 20:05, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> The NCC is two or three volumes short of completion.  As many of you will
> know, the project started publication in 1949 at the University of Madras
> under the direction of Prof. V. Raghavan, and has continued - with ups and
> downs - until the publication of volume thirty-nine in 2015.  With the
> retirement of its energetic editor, Prof. S. Dash, publication has
> stopped.  Volume thirty-nine ended with the titles "suhotrasa?hit?" and
> "suhodita," so you can see how close the project is to completion.
>
> I am writing to the Vice Chancellor of the University of Madras to
> encourage him to bring all his energy to bear in order to complete the
> publication of the NCC.  The end is tantalizingly close.
>
> The draft text of my letter is below.  If you would like to add your name
> as a signatory to the letter, please write to me directly at the address
> wujastyk+ncc at gmail.com with your name and affiliation.  I will do the
> rest.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dominik Wujastyk
>
>
> ?
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ?,?
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ?,?
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ?,?
> University of Alberta, Canada
> ?.?
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> ?sas.ualberta.ca?
>
>
> ?Draft:
>
> Dear Professor Duraisamy,
>
> I am writing to you in my capacity as a university professor specialising
> in Sanskrit and the history of Indian literature. Several professional
> colleagues have joined me in adding their names to this letter, below.
>
> Throughout my career, I have referred very frequently to the *New
> Catalogus Catalogorum: an Alphabetical Register of Sanskrit and Allied
> Works and Authors*, published by your university since 1949 and edited
> and written by the great Prof. V. Raghavan, Prof. C. Kunhan Raja, and many
> distinguished scholars up to Prof. Siniruddha Dash.
>
> The NCC, as the work is known amongst lovers of Sanskrit literature, is
> the only complete, unified survey of all Sanskrit and Prakrit authors and
> works that exists. It is a unique work and a golden key to India's
> heritage. It is also the only comprehensive guide to the wealth of
> manuscripts in India and abroad that transmit this precious heritage.
> Through the NCC, it is possible to find all the known manuscripts of such
> works as the *?gveda*, the *Bhagavadg?t?* and the *R?m?yana*, Caraka's
> great encyclopedia of medicine and ?ryabha?a's reflections on mathematics
> and astronomy. Anybody who speaks authoritatively about Indian literature
> does so because they have been able to use the NCC to achieve certainty
> about the facts.
>
> By supporting this great project through the twentieth- and now
> twenty-first centuries, the University of Madras has performed one of the
> most significant services to India's literary heritage of the last hundred
> years.
>
> Over the forty years of my career, I have visited the Sanskrit department
> in Chennai as often as I could, to see how the NCC was coming along, and to
> lend my encouragement and support to the project. I vividly remember
> meeting Prof. E. R. Rama Bai about twenty years ago. At that time, she
> despaired of ever seeing the project completed, although she heroically
> produced volume fourteen.
>
> Today, against all expectations, the NCC is almost complete. Since 1949,
> the University of Madras has published thirty-nine volumes of the NCC. No
> fewer than twenty-five of these were published under the editorship of
> Prof. Siniruddha Dash between 2007 and 2015. Unfortunately, since Prof.
> Dash's retirement a few years ago, publishing has ceased.
>
> I am writing to you today to ask you to give your attention to this
> monumental project and to do whatever you can to bring it to completion.
> Only two or three volumes remain to be published! The end is very much
> within sight. It would be a terrible shame if a project of this magnitude
> at the University of Madras that has been running since 1949 were to fall
> short of completion when the end is so very close.
>
> I do not know what means are available to you for completing this project,
> or what your ideas might be. Outsourcing the project just for this final
> step may be necessary.
>
> If I can be of any assistance in helping NCC to fulfilment, please tell me
> what I can do! Quite apart from its intrinsic scholarly importance, the
> project is of national and international significance as an icon of Indian
> scholarship.
>
> We, the undersigned, hope and trust that the University of Madras will be
> able to complete the NCC project soon.
> ?
>
> ??
>
>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Sat May  5 18:14:59 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Sat, 05 May 18 23:44:59 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pongu Sani
In-Reply-To: <CABcuftTreiWX2Lmr08UppzQ6URywUcDWv99SV0wqztJ+jiUuYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebBZbJeH7uJ=Kjf8GetJQ-OzD_x20DzBhjGAF7sU8eukA@mail.gmail.com>

Is it different from the well known s'ubhatva (benefic status) and
as'ubhatva (malefic status) of grahas in a chart based on their position
from the lagna of the subject (person) ?

Naturally malefic turns into benefic if he owns the 4th, 7th or 10th houses
from lagna (ascendant) . Owner of the 5th and 9th houses is benefic
whatever is its shubhaashubhatva naturally.

Saturn is the owner of Makara(Capricorn) and Kumbha (Aquarius) houses.

For Tula (libra) lagna for example, these two are 4th and 5th respectively.
Thus for this lagna, Saturn is benefic in both the positions.

-----------

I just found that if 71/2 S'ani occurs for the second time in life, it is
called pongu s'ani in Tamil.

On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ofer Peres via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I would appreciate any information on the history\origins of the south
> Indian astrological concept "pongu sani" (benevolent Saturn).
>
>
> Beat wishes,
>
> Ofer Peres.
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sat May  5 20:16:31 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 05 May 18 16:16:31 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article needed
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQGktX6mdYrgRw10p12BDqMyjwwO4rDfoQKWXsf75CR4pw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you to R. Narenthiran for forwarding the article.

Harry Spier

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 9:34 PM, Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> If anyone has a pdf of the article Budha-Kau?ika's R?marak??stotra. A
> Contribution to the Study of Sanskrit Devotional Poetry. Vienna 1983 by
> Gudrun Buhnemann and could send it to me I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
> Many thanks,
> Harry Spier
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun May  6 04:13:52 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 05 May 18 21:13:52 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze7+bgjii=+dtP6UFJML-dDABcBYKpSFRQOd9eqoL4VpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing Krishna verses this evening:

???????: ???? ?????? ???????????????

??????: ???? ????? ?????????

?????????????? ???????????

????????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????: ???????

Let the inexorable wheel of the world continue to rotate in front of my
eyes, and let any loud tumults fall on my ears. As long as the sound of
your flute is in my heart and your figure resides there, I am happy.


?????????? ????? ???????? ??????????

?????? ??????? ???? ??????????????? ?

I did not recognize your figure residing in my heart.  The immaturity of my
mind was previously preventing this.


?????????? ?? ???? ??????? ????

????? ?????? ???????????????? ???????

But your compassionate hand touched my body and removed that immaturity.


?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??: ??????? ????? ?

??? ?? ????????? ???????????: ???????? ???????

When the moon of Kr???a shines in the sky of my heart, darkness is removed
from my mind by your dark luster.


??????? ?? ?????????: ??????? ?????? ???: ?

? ??? ????????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????

The moon in the sky waxes and wanes.  But in the sky of my heart the moon
of Kr???a does not ever wane.


?????????????????? ???????????: ???????? ??? ?

???? ???? ??: ?????? ???????????????: ???????

The never-waning bright moon of Kr???a unrestingly destroys the darkness
hidden in the heart with compassion.


?????? ???? ??????? ?????????? ? ?????: ?

??? ?? ????????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????

In the sky, when the moon comes up, the stars do not shine.  Similarly, in
the sky of heart, nothing else shines.


???? ????? ??????? ??????? ? ???? ??????? ?

???????????? ???? ?? ???????? ????????? ???????

The moon shines at night, but not during the day.  The moon of Kr???a
shines in my mind day and night.


?????? ????????????? ??????: ????????: ????: ?

???????? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ???????

By the rising moon of Kr???a, all nights were turned into full-moon nights.
It does not leave my heart even during the day.


?????????????? ????? ????? ???? ??????: ?

????????? ?????? ??????: ??????????????????: ???????

On account of the cool brilliance of the moon of Kr???a, the blazing fires
in the mind, fueled by inherited karma, are pacified.


????? ????????????? ?????? ????????? ?

?????? ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????

By the young moon of Kr???a, the Gokula was brightened.  By the grown moon
of Kr???a on the [battlefield of] Kuruk?etra the entire world was
brightened.


?????????????? ??????? ????? ????????? ?

?????????? ????????????????? ?? ????? ???????

The face of mother Ya?oda, brightened by the dark brilliance of the moon of
Kr???a, shines like the moon.


???????????????????? ???????????????? ?

???????? ????? ????????????? ????????? ???????

The heart of Arjuna, enveloped by the evil of ignorance and overcome by
grief and delusion, was brightened by the moon of Kr???a.


?????????????? ?????: ???????? ?????????? ?

???????????: ??????? ????????? ????????? ???????

The beams of the moon of Kr???a, namely the words of the Bhagavad-Gita,
constantly spread over the world cleansing it of evil.


?? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?

???????????? ????? ????? ????????? ???? ???????

How can the darkness of ignorance enter the heart of those, who constantly
see the moon of Kr???a risen in the sky of their heart?


?? ????? ???????? ???????????? ????????? ?

????????? ???????????? ???? ? ??????? ???????

If the moon of Kr???a were not to shine in the three worlds, the sun and
the moon will not be able to remove darkness.


????? ???????????? ????? ????????? ?

?????? ?????? ???? ???????????? ??? ???????

O Friend, if you heart is overcome by darkness and the body is whitened,
that kind of life in this world is like a dried up leaf.


???????? ???????? ???????????? ??? ?? ?

??? ??????? ?????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ???????

When the moon of Kr???a shines in the sky of your heart, then unwaveringly
see M?dhava with your eyes closed.


???????? ????????? ??????????? ????? ???? ?

????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????????????? ???????

In one sky of heart, you should see M?dhava with joy.  He too will see you
as a friend.  You are two friends on the same branch.


??? ????? ??????? ????: ??????: ?????? ?

??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????????? ???? ???????

Whenever I see children playing around me, O M?dhava, Delight of Gokula, I
remember your play.


??????? ??????????????? ????????????? ????: ?

?????????? ?????? ??? ??????????????? ???????

The mothers doting their children and discipling them remind me of Ya?od?,
the mother of the delight of the father Nanda.


????? ????????????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?

???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????: ??????: ???????

A father carrying his child on his shoulders and showing him to people
seems to me, O Kr???a, like Nanda, with his delightful son.


??????? ?????? ??? ?????????????? ?

??????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????? ???????

O Lord, the entire moving and unmoving world spread around me appears to me
like Gokula, O Delight of Nanda.


???????????????? ???: ?????? ????????: ?

?????? ?????????? ?????? ????????? ???????

You subdued the poisonous K?liya snake, and you cleansed the water of
Yamun? for the life of the people.


?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?

????? ???????? ????? ???? ?????????????? ?????

There are many snakes hidden in the minds of people.  To purify their
minds, O Kr???a, destroy those snakes.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk  Sun May  6 16:04:48 2018
From: f.ferrari at chester.ac.uk (Fabrizio Ferrari)
Date: Sun, 06 May 18 16:04:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] McCutchion's article
In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1525622402.29108.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <1525622556624.32328@chester.ac.uk>

Dear list members, 

Does anybody have a .pdf copy of the following article (or know where to find one)?

McCutchion, David J. ?An Unidentified Sa?h?ram?rti of ?iva at Bh?ior (West Dinajpur).? Journal of Indian History 48, no. 1?2 (1970): 345?56.

I would be very thankful if could share it. 
With best wishes, 

Fabrizio Ferrari
University of Chester




From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun May  6 22:52:38 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 06 May 18 17:52:38 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
Message-ID: <6934A4EC-A77C-404F-9623-AC4868ED7FDC@aol.com>

Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:
 
"From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
 
"It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..." 

In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.  
The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.

ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?

Thanks

Regards,
Palaniappan




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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon May  7 09:05:36 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 09:05:36 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <6934A4EC-A77C-404F-9623-AC4868ED7FDC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B12AA9@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Palaniappan,

The interpretation of the verbal noun nilaiyal as an imperative/optative is unnecessary. Compare this instances with uyirttalum (2 x) in E?uttatik?ram 1. 17. And the conclusion drawn from the imperative/optative is rather far-fetched.
Apart from that, the dates given to Tolk?ppiya? are anyhow much too early, so the pul?l?i discussion is not relevant. I cannot keep myself from quoting Eva Wilden on the dating of Ca?kam poetry, and with that of Tolk?ppiyam:

"The coincidence between the start of the literary tradition and the beginning of the Christian era must be regarded as a mere "date of convenience". To this day no hard facts establishing a connection between the inner, literary and the outer, historical sequence have been convincingly shown to exist. Nothing that is of relevance to the following argument can be regarded as securely dated[,] before the P???iya inscriptions of the 9th century"

So finally she agrees with me (however, without any reference to my book and subsequent articles). We differ, however, on what should be done next. I have tried ? and am still trying ? to find points in history relevant for the dating of Ca?kam poetry (the P???iya inscriptions mentioned just now), while Wilden proceeds as if nothing has happened, placing the Ku?untokai and a few other presumably early collections in the 1st to 3rd centuries (Manuscript, Print and Memory. Relics of the Ca?kam in Tamilnadu. Berlin, 2014, pp. 7-8.).
I seem to be  living in another world than most Tamil scholars, but definitely a more exciting one..
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 7 mei 2018 0:52
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam

Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:

"From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.

"It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..."

In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.

The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.

ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?

Thanks

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Mon May  7 09:40:20 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 11:40:20 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <6934A4EC-A77C-404F-9623-AC4868ED7FDC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBDV7WZGf9xu87k+SSaVNHeaDkKtfpaxQABOX3doUQUXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Paniappan,
As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia
Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated.
Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is
prescriptive for the first time.
In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the
WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old
K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old
Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after
Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the
datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this
issue.
Best regards,
Jan Houben


On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some
> pages in the 2nd edition of *Early Tamil Epigraphy *(ETE) by Iravatham
> Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p.
> 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed
> after the *pu??i* was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil
> writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of
> the *pu??i* from about the end of the 1st century A.D., *Tolk?ppiyam* was
> composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca.
> 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a
> crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of
> the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in *International
> Journal of Dravidian Linguistics*, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this
> article, it is stated:
>
>
> "From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention,
> either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short *u* with a dot.
> The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of
> the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
>
>
>
> "It is possible that there existed in the pre-*Tolk?ppiyam* period, the
> convention of marking an extra short *u* with a dot and the author of
> *Tolk?ppiyam* extended the convention to the class of vowelless
> consonants..."
>
>
> In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who
> invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means
> that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (
> *pu??i*) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.
>
> The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule
> *Tolk?ppiyam* 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972
> translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.?
> Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the
> imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of *mey*
> (consonant) to stay with a *pu??i* (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate
> pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the
> imperative/optative construction in the rule.
> ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article,
> Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s
>  *A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, *wherein the
> imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in
> the discussion on *pu??i* in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not
> discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for
> Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not
> discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been
> any discussion of this issue by anybody else?
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

[image: 1506959459738_Signature]


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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Mon May  7 14:03:58 2018
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 16:03:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBDV7WZGf9xu87k+SSaVNHeaDkKtfpaxQABOX3doUQUXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5c4df8af-13e5-baf7-7923-ccca18ae6356@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Jan,

I don't believe wwhat you say is true.

However, it is indeed an opinion current among those who have not read 
the Tolk?ppiyam.

But if one reads the Tolk?ppiyam, one will not find this explanation to 
make much sense.

My preferred explanation is the traditional explanation, current among 
native Tamil scholars, which derives the name from ????????????????? 
[tolk?ppiyakku?i] which is the name of a clan (or gotra? or village?).

However,
life being short
and this topic having already been discussed on this very mailing list,
NINE years ago (in April 2009),
I shall leave it at that.

???????? [a?pu?a?]

-- Jean-Luc

https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard

https://twitter.com/JLC1956



On 07/05/2018 11:40, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY wrote:
> the most generally accepted etymogy of Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya"






From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Mon May  7 14:33:38 2018
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 16:33:38 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B12AA9@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <ca069334-1e97-eac8-7f83-a241eb570918@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Cher Herman,

je pr?f?re r?pondre en fran?ais parce que je peux ainsi mieux contr?ler 
le pouvoir des mots que j'emploie.

Je me faisais en lisant cette phrase de toi que je cite ci-dessous une 
r?flexion symm?trique
(we seem to live in different worlds)

La plupart des gens qui ?tudient et transmettent la litt?rature tamoule 
classique ont le sentiment que l'objet qu'ils ?tudient est beau et 
pr?cieux, et que c'est pour cela qu'il a ?t? transmis (et cultiv?) par 
un grand nombre de g?n?rations successives.

On a souvent l'impression en te lisant que tu ne partages pas ce point 
de vue.

Dans une infinit? de chemins possibles, pourquoi choisir une chemin 
qu'on ne trouve pas int?ressant?

Amicalement

-- Jean-Luc


https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard

https://twitter.com/JLC1956




On 07/05/2018 11:05, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY wrote:
> I seem to be? living in another world than most Tamil scholars, but 
> definitely a more exciting one..
> Herman
> 






From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon May  7 15:02:12 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 15:02:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <5c4df8af-13e5-baf7-7923-ccca18ae6356@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B12B1B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

I always thought that on this list ad hominem remarks are not permitted. Therefore I am amazed that Jean-Luc Chevillard's mail has passed the moderators. I refer to the sentence "It is indeed an opinion current among those who have not read Tolk?ppiyam", by which Jan Houben is set aside and disqualified to express an idea about the origin of the title Tolk?ppiyam. All this, only to get rid of the word k?vya in the name Tolk?ppiyam. Strictly speaking this move is not even necessary, that is, unnecessary for those who claim an early date of Ca?kam poetry, as the word k?vya is almost certainly older than the 9th century; see Stephanie Jamison, The Rig Veda Between Two Worlds, p. 144.
The type of argument used by Chevillard is typical of many Tamil scholars: about me (and not only about me but also to my face, in Pondichery and at JNU) they say that I do not know Tamil, for if I knew I would not date Ca?kam that late.
Here I stop, this is my last mail in this particular thread.
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com

________________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Jean-Luc Chevillard via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: maandag 7 mei 2018 16:03
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam

Dear Jan,

I don't believe wwhat you say is true.

However, it is indeed an opinion current among those who have not read
the Tolk?ppiyam.

But if one reads the Tolk?ppiyam, one will not find this explanation to
make much sense.

My preferred explanation is the traditional explanation, current among
native Tamil scholars, which derives the name from ?????????????????
[tolk?ppiyakku?i] which is the name of a clan (or gotra? or village?).

However,
life being short
and this topic having already been discussed on this very mailing list,
NINE years ago (in April 2009),
I shall leave it at that.

???????? [a?pu?a?]

-- Jean-Luc

https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard

https://twitter.com/JLC1956



On 07/05/2018 11:40, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY wrote:
> the most generally accepted etymogy of Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya"


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Mon May  7 15:20:10 2018
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 17:20:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B12B1B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <34c22169-4ee9-718b-6191-771391153f86@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Herman,

I do not see what is /ad hominem/ in my statement.

Jan's sentence is ambiguous.

It could mean

(A) the most generally accepted etymogy of Tolk?ppiyam [AMONG THOSE WHO 
HAVE STUDIED THAT TREATISE] is "old K?vya"

or

(B) the most generally accepted etymogy of Tolk?ppiyam [AMONG 
INDOLOGISTS IN GENERAL] is "old K?vya"

What I am saying is that (B) may be true but that I believe (A) is not true.

Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc

https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard

https://twitter.com/JLC1956




On 07/05/2018 17:02, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote:
> I always thought that on this list ad hominem remarks are not permitted. Therefore I am amazed that Jean-Luc Chevillard's mail has passed the moderators. I refer to the sentence "It is indeed an opinion current among those who have not read Tolk?ppiyam", by which Jan Houben is set aside and disqualified to express an idea about the origin of the title Tolk?ppiyam. All this, only to get rid of the word k?vya in the name Tolk?ppiyam. Strictly speaking this move is not even necessary, that is, unnecessary for those who claim an early date of Ca?kam poetry, as the word k?vya is almost certainly older than the 9th century; see Stephanie Jamison, The Rig Veda Between Two Worlds, p. 144.
> The type of argument used by Chevillard is typical of many Tamil scholars: about me (and not only about me but also to my face, in Pondichery and at JNU) they say that I do not know Tamil, for if I knew I would not date Ca?kam that late.
> Here I stop, this is my last mail in this particular thread.
> Herman
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> 
> ________________________________________
> Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Jean-Luc Chevillard via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> Verzonden: maandag 7 mei 2018 16:03
> Aan: indology at list.indology.info
> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
> 
> Dear Jan,
> 
> I don't believe wwhat you say is true.
> 
> However, it is indeed an opinion current among those who have not read
> the Tolk?ppiyam.
> 
> But if one reads the Tolk?ppiyam, one will not find this explanation to
> make much sense.
> 
> My preferred explanation is the traditional explanation, current among
> native Tamil scholars, which derives the name from ?????????????????
> [tolk?ppiyakku?i] which is the name of a clan (or gotra? or village?).
> 
> However,
> life being short
> and this topic having already been discussed on this very mailing list,
> NINE years ago (in April 2009),
> I shall leave it at that.
> 
> ???????? [a?pu?a?]
> 
> -- Jean-Luc
> 
> https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard
> 
> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
> 
> 
> 
> On 07/05/2018 11:40, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY wrote:
>> the most generally accepted etymogy of Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya"
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 






From glhart at berkeley.edu  Mon May  7 15:26:29 2018
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 11:26:29 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoBDV7WZGf9xu87k+SSaVNHeaDkKtfpaxQABOX3doUQUXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6CA66377-D0AA-4248-9920-2F6ACB7711E2@berkeley.edu>

It was my impression that, like many older Indian works (cf. the Vy?sa Mah?bh?rata, the Rig Veda, probably the N??ya??stra), the Tolk?ppiyam is a collection of things that may have been composed at different dates. Some parts may be quite early, some later, but I would be pretty surprised if anything in the work is as late as the 9th century. My opinion is that parts of the work may go back to (or mirror/be influenced by) things as early as the 1st century BCE (and conceivably even earlier) while other parts may be as late as the 3rd or even 4th century CE. Burnell's work relating the Tolk?ppiyam to the Sanskrit Aindra (On the Aindra School of Sanskrit Grammarians: Their Place in the Sanskrit, available on Google) is important. One might note that P??ini describes things that are earlier than the Sanskrit used when he composed his work ? I am not a vaiy?kara?ika, but I am sure people on this list can speak to this. The writers of grammars, whether in Sanskrit or Tamil, do not appear out of thin air. George

> On May 7, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Paniappan, 
> As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated. 
> Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is prescriptive for the first time. 
> In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
> Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this issue. 
> Best regards, 
> Jan Houben
> 
> 
> On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:
>  
> "From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
>  
> "It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..." 
> 
> In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.  
> The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.
> 
> ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jan E.M. Houben
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
> johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>
> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>
> <Outlook-1506959459.jpg>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon May  7 21:24:55 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 07 May 18 21:24:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Robert Charles Zaehner - photo?
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CdkwzNQk_j0SWSoh1qpnt6DPfZBa0n-Mz0740QiGvhd9A@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to locate a photo of Prof R. C. Zaehner, whose lectures I
attended in 1974, just before his demise.  Does anyone have one?  I've
scoured the internet without luck.  I think maybe he was not photographed
much because he had been a spy before he became a professor of eastern
religions.

The photo that often crops up
<https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/people/western_writers/zaehner.jpg>
for Zaehner when one does a Google search isn't him (it's Max Muller).

Best wishes,
Dominik


?
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?
??


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue May  8 16:42:12 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 18 16:42:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Robert Charles Zaehner - photo?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CdkwzNQk_j0SWSoh1qpnt6DPfZBa0n-Mz0740QiGvhd9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cd-ZK7r5M=WoAWkVoKF=SsTyOQD8DrbirutqnTHwL1ayw@mail.gmail.com>

?Prof. Karttunen kindly pointed me to Zaehner's obituary in *Iran* 13 (1975)
<https://www.jstor.org/stable/4300520>, where this image appears:

[image: zaehner.png]
?


On Mon, 7 May 2018 at 15:24, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would like to locate a photo of Prof R. C. Zaehner, whose lectures I
> attended in 1974, just before his demise.  Does anyone have one?  I've
> scoured the internet without luck.  I think maybe he was not photographed
> much because he had been a spy before he became a professor of eastern
> religions.
>
> The photo that often crops up
> <https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/people/western_writers/zaehner.jpg>
> for Zaehner when one does a Google search isn't him (it's Max Muller).
>
> Best wishes,
> Dominik
>
>
> ?
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ?,?
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ?,?
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ?,?
> University of Alberta, Canada
> ?.?
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> ?sas.ualberta.ca?
> ??
>
>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May  8 17:10:29 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 08 May 18 10:10:29 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] More Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfik7G6OAx=nJn0fEHx5HvESMDF-n8cKjMs8Cm21Ho3yA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Here are some more of my Krishna verses:

???????? ???????? ??????????????? ??: ?

?????? ??????????? ????? ?????? ??? ???????

On the large stage of this world, there is no other actor than Kr???a.
Assuming
many forms, he always acts out a play.


??????? ????? ????????? ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ?

?????? ??? ?????????? ????? ??????? ???: ???????

Sometimes Kr???a becomes R?dh?, and sometimes R?dh? becomes Kr???a.  Even
though he is really one, he becomes two and shows his plays.


?????? ?????? ? ????? ????? ???????????? ?

?????? ?????? ???????????? ??????? ????????? ???????

Having become Vy?sa, he himself composed the Mah?bh?rata, and having become
Arjuna he questioned Kr???a.


???????? ????????? ????? ?????: ????????????? ??? ?

????????????  ??????????? ????????????????? ???????

Having asked the questions himself, Kr???a himself answered them.  He
performed this play on Kuruk?etra to cleanse the heart of the world.


???????????? ?? ????? ???????????? ?

??????????? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????

Having watched your beautiful dance subduing the K?liya snake in the water
of Yamun?, Yamuna herself broke out in waves.


??????? ?????????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?

????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????: ???????

Dancing on the stage of Gokula, you were not pleased by being alone.
Therefore,
you produced playful forms on all sides.


??????????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?

????????? ????? ? ????????????????? ???????

O Kr???a, you yourself are the milkman, and the milkmaid is none other than
you.  [Your parents] Nanda and Ya?od? are also you, and so is the entire
Gokula.


??????????????? ?????? ????????? ?

??? ?? ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ???????

The birth of the unborn highest Lord is only a [playful] illusion.  Just as
it is yours, so the distinctness of your specks [is also illusory].


??????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ?

??? ????? ??? ?????????????????? ???:???????  ???????

Though they are not truly different from you, your friends appear to be
different.  O Kr???a, how do we recognize you standing in front, when you
are not different [from us].


?????????????? ??????: ?????????: ?

?????????????? ?????????? ???????????????????: ???????

As if not knowing the non-difference, the milkmaids, tormented by your
separation, run around looking for you.  The are the lights on the path of
love.


?????: ????? ?????? ???????? ???????????? ?

??????????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ????1??

Enjoying your own play and forgetting that it is a play, O Kr???a, you are
tormented by separation from R?dh?.


????????????????? ???????????? ?? ?

????? ?????????? ??? ????: ???????? ???: ????2??

This very attractive play of yours is for the purpose of enlightening the
world, so that common people will be infused with love for you.


?????? ?????????? ?? ????????????????????? ?

??????? ????? ?????: ?????? ?????? ?????: ???????

Your dance on the stage of Gokula is a demonstration of love as devotion.  On
the battlefield [of Kuruk?etra] you exhorted Arjuna to do the needed duty.


????????? ????????? ???????? ?????? ??? ?

????????? ?????????? ?? ??????????????? ???????

The Yogins watching your dance on the bank of Yamun? want to become
milkmaids on account of your display of love.


?????????? ?? ????????? ?????????: ???????????: ?

?????????? ????? ???? ?????????? ??? ???????

Even after watching your Cosmic Form, the confused Arjuna took refuge at
your feet with love.


??????? ???? ????? ???? ??????????????? ?

?????? ????????? ?????? ????????????????: ???????

On the stage of the world, you destroy the demons who are opposed to
righteousness, and, promoting the wheel of righteousness, you protect the
righteous.


??????? ??????????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?

????????????? ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ???????

We hear you teaching the essence of righteousness on the battlefield [of
Kuruk?etra], and using the [dialogue with] Arjuna as an occasion, you point
us in the right direction.


?????????? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ?

??????? ????????????????, ??????? ????????? ???????

Your dance on the stage of K?liya?s head created fear for those enemies
whose hearts were filled with poison, and produced delight for the
good-minded people.


???????? ?? ????????? ??????? ???????? ?

?????? ?????????? ???????????? ???? ???????

O Kr???a, on your stage we are also made to dance by you holding the
strings.  We are the dancing toys.


?????? ????????????? ?????? ?????????? ?

??????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ???? ??????? ???????

In this game of play, you are always delighting.  However, O Lord, let
there be no confusion for us who are wandering on this stage.


????????? ?????????????? ?????? ????????? ?

?????????: ???? ??? ?? ???: ??????????????? ?? ???????

On the stage of this world, this drama of yours is continuously playing.  Are
we spectators, or actors, or are we your play dolls?


???????????????? ?? ?????? ???????? ?

???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ???????

Somehow or other, you yourself have involved us in your play, and you know
our strengths and weaknesses.


???????? ?????????? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ?

???????? ??? ???? ??????????????????: ???????

O Lord, whether we are wandering on your stage, or being made to wander
around, we don?t quite know, and, indeed, our minds are confused.


?????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ???????????? ?

??????? ?????? ????? ???????? ???????? ???????

O Kr???a, you alone know the story of your play as you intend it.  For
those of us running around on your stage, our strings are in your hands.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue May  8 21:20:53 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 08 May 18 16:20:53 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <6CA66377-D0AA-4248-9920-2F6ACB7711E2@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <273F00D3-C2DA-47B7-9494-06080F951B75@aol.com>

Based on the work I have done, the date of 9th century for the Classical Tamil texts is too late. 

At the Archaeology of Bhakti II: Royal Bhakti, Local Bhakti workshop-cum-conference, I presented two papers. One was entitled, ?On the War Instruments Mentioned in Periya Tirumo?i 2.9.9,? in which I dated the poem by Tiruma?kai ??v?r to 8th cerntury based on historical, epigraphical and philological considerations. The core problem was that  almost everyone had assumed that only one instrument was being mentionedin the verse. Actually, there were two instruments, a conch and a drum. Ka?uv?y was not describing the nature of the drum. It represented the name of the conch used in battle. The conch was most probably so named because blowing the conch produced a sound similar to the roar of a tiger.  The K?nd?r grant was simply rendering into Sanskrit the Tamil name Ka?uv?y. The presentation was well received and I was asked to submit it for the proceedings. However, I had also presented a paper on the Tamil P??ar as portrayed in hagiographic texts and inscriptions in which I pointed out that what the hagiographic texts had presented as the untouchability of the P??ar was fiction and was diametrically opposite to what the inscriptions and other historical data were showing. During the Q&A period after the talk, one Dr. Vijayavenugopal of EFEO went on a rant for so long that  the session moderator had to close the session and I did not have any time to respond to him! It showed how even persons working in institutions like EFEO treated hagiographies as history. As a result, since one could only submit one paper as part of the proceedings, I submitted the paper on the Tamil P??ar, which woud change the opinion that has been held by Tamil scholars for more than 800 years. If I had submitted the paper on Periya Tirumo?i 2.9.9, it would not have impacted the date of Classical Tamil texts since almost nobody other than Dr. Tieken subscribes to the 9th century date for those texts. So I have not published the paper on Periya Tirumo?i 2.9.9 anywhere yet.

To cut the long story short, if the Periya Tirumo?i is dated in the 8th century, the 9th century date for the Classical Tamil texts is impossible.

Regards,
Palaniappan



> On May 7, 2018, at 10:26 AM, George Hart via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> It was my impression that, like many older Indian works (cf. the Vy?sa Mah?bh?rata, the Rig Veda, probably the N??ya??stra), the Tolk?ppiyam is a collection of things that may have been composed at different dates. Some parts may be quite early, some later, but I would be pretty surprised if anything in the work is as late as the 9th century. My opinion is that parts of the work may go back to (or mirror/be influenced by) things as early as the 1st century BCE (and conceivably even earlier) while other parts may be as late as the 3rd or even 4th century CE. Burnell's work relating the Tolk?ppiyam to the Sanskrit Aindra (On the Aindra School of Sanskrit Grammarians: Their Place in the Sanskrit, available on Google) is important. One might note that P??ini describes things that are earlier than the Sanskrit used when he composed his work ? I am not a vaiy?kara?ika, but I am sure people on this list can speak to this. The writers of grammars, whether in Sanskrit or Tamil, do not appear out of thin air. George
> 
>> On May 7, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Paniappan, 
>> As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated. 
>> Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is prescriptive for the first time. 
>> In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
>> Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this issue. 
>> Best regards, 
>> Jan Houben
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:
>>  
>> "From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
>>  
>> "It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..." 
>> 
>> In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.  
>> The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.
>> 
>> ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Palaniappan
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jan E.M. Houben
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
>> johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>
>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>
>> <Outlook-1506959459.jpg>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed May  9 01:39:19 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 18 19:39:19 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B12B1B@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeqmDZLgLrG4=Wcg58-8wUu2=fVQjceoXCxvy5WEJ0FnA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 May 2018 at 09:02, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I always thought that on this list ad hominem remarks are not permitted.
> Therefore I am amazed that Jean-Luc Chevillard's mail has passed the
> moderators.
>

Rudeness is not appropriate on this list, if ever.  You are right.  But the
INDOLOGY forum is not moderated, and never has been.  We are on an honour
system.  It works well.

Best,
Dominik? Wujastyk
INDOLOGY committee member on duty this week.


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From omar.abudbei at gmail.com  Wed May  9 09:38:48 2018
From: omar.abudbei at gmail.com (Omar Abu Dbei)
Date: Wed, 09 May 18 11:38:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reminder: Laurea Honoris Causa Charles Malamoud, 15th May
Message-ID: <CAMQEYbpobCv+AyR05YduOa0xu6MjfCRdx8RVDdCVjfcnh6Boeg@mail.gmail.com>




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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 07:13:58 2018
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 07:13:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a Telugu inscription?
Message-ID: <VI1PR0902MB17588302B647FEF37C7BB6B6A5980@VI1PR0902MB1758.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,


The attached photo shows a stone in Rakhine State, Myanmar. Can anyone with more experience in reading Telugu confirm for me that this is in Telugu? Are the reading and meaning clear?


Best wishes,


Arlo Griffiths





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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu May 10 07:22:31 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 12:52:31 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] a Telugu inscription?
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR0902MB17588302B647FEF37C7BB6B6A5980@VI1PR0902MB1758.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZiikzHgNnh+a2r4NS_t_B8VE8oFuJ6=Mt20BOgQkBd0w@mail.gmail.com>

It is clearly Telugu.

.......??  ??????? ??......

.......n?  k?dalappa nr?......

???????   k?dalappa  seems to be a name.

??......    nr?......   seems to be the first syllable of ????? nr?p?la



On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
>
> The attached photo shows a stone in Rakhine State, Myanmar. Can anyone
> with more experience in reading Telugu confirm for me that this is in
> Telugu? Are the reading and meaning clear?
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Arlo Griffiths
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 10:31:00 2018
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 10:31:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi Dictionary
Message-ID: <HE1PR0902MB1753BD1ED932B7CCEB095851A5980@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues,


Does anyone have a better pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi Dictionary than the DLI set which is available through archive.org?


Thanks in advance.


Arlo Griffiths


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From toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk  Thu May 10 11:53:01 2018
From: toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 11:53:01 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_INSA_YOUNG_HISTORIAN_OF_SCIENCE_AWARD_=E2=80=93_2018?=
In-Reply-To: <fa2ee26f6ff4.5af461a2@nic.in>
Message-ID: <9D076BEC-666E-447F-AC21-AE828B602C46@hum.ku.dk>

Hi all,

This might be of interest to some members of the list.

Best,
Toke

=====

Sub: Call for Nomination 2018

Dear Madam/Sir,

INSA Young Historian of Science Award is instituted by Indian National Science Academy, New Delhi with the aim of recognizing young historians of science of extraordinary promise and creativity who have made notable research contributions in areas relating to History of Science. This award, considered to be the highest recognition of promise, creativity and excellence is made annually to those historians of science who are distinguished for these attributes as evidenced by their research work carried out in India or abroad. Only those born on or after January 1, 1983 are eligible for consideration in the year 2018.
            The awardee shall receive a certificate? a bronze medal, cash award of Rs. 25,000/- and a seed amount to initiate research project and further scope for overseas training for advancement of career.
            A candidate is to be nominated by a Fellow of the Indian National Science Academy and other National Scientific Societies, Vice Chancellors of Universities and Heads of Research Institutions.
            Nomination proforma may be availed from Assistant Executive Director at email ijhs at insa.nic.in<mailto:ijhs at insa.nic.in> or be downloaded from website www.insaindia.res.in<http://www.insaindia.res.in>. One hard copy and a soft copy (in MS Word only) of the nomination duly filled in, along with all supporting documents, must reach the Academy latest by June 30, 2018.

--
__________________________________________
Madhvendra Narayan
AED History of Science & Associate Editor, IJHS
Indian National Science Academy
Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg
New Delhi 110002
email:ijhs at insa.nic.in<mailto:ijhs at insa.nic.in>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu May 10 14:12:08 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 07:12:08 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcu=zS0tSpOfPVFQhBRfV0T1Vh9V+TvLvf=hLQuBp5EHg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

???? ?? ????? ?????????????????? ?

???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???: ???: ???????

O Kr???a, if acting in your play is so delightful, then engage me in your
play again and again.


?????? ?? ??????? ???????? ?????? ???? ?

??????????: ????????: ??? ????? ? ???? ???????

O Kr???a, we are the sounds coming from your flute.  O M?dhava, delighting
in ourselves, how should we not always be happy?


??????????? ???????????? ??????????: ????? ???? ?

?????? ????????: ????? ??????? ????????: ???????

You are the blazing fire and we are the sparks rising from you and flying
around and coming back to you, O Kr???a.


???????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??????????: ?

?? ???????? ????????? ????? ???????? ???????

On your stage of the world, O Lord, you created us with love, and for your
pleasure, we will do what you want us to do.


???? ?? ????????? ??? ????? ???????? ?

?????: ????????????? ?? ??????? ???? ??: ???????

We will carry out your words, as Arjuna said after listening to your advice
on the battlefield, and as he took refuge in you.


????????? ????????? ? ???? ? ???? ?

?????? ??????? ???? ???????: ??????? ?????????? ?? ???????

You and I are two birds sitting on the same branch, O M?dhava.  You are the
older brother and I am the younger.


?????????? ?? ?????????? ??: ??????? ???? ?

????????? ??????? ?????: ??????????????: ???????

O Kr???a, with your strong wings you touch the sky.  With a confused mind,
I am still sitting on the branch.


??? ????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????????? ?

????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????: ?????????? ???? ???????

Having left the branch, how will I move in the sky?  O M?dhava, is there
strength in my wings?


???????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?

??????? ????:?????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ???????

Seeing you roaming in the sky, if I were to try and fall, then who will
save me from the fall?


??????? ??? ????????? ?????? ????????? ?

???? ??? ???? ????????????? ??????: ???????

If you are ready to save me, then i will try to fly in the sky.  Watch me
flying into the sky without falling here and there.


????????????? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ?? ?

???? ?? ??????????????? ??????? ???? ???????

You are my brother, O Kr???a, and I am fortunate to have you as my brother.
O M?dhava, always have your compassionate gaze on your brother.


?? ???????????? ????? ???????? ?

????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???????

In your play in Gokula, I was your friend in stealing yoghurt.  But you ate
all the yoghurt that I had stolen.


?? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ?

????????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???????

O Lord, what is the benefit of becoming your friend?  Give me half of what
you stole, O Kr???a.


?????? ?? ??????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?

??????? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???????

It was your theft, and I was caught.  Is this right, O Kr???a?  Please
quickly free me caught for the theft.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From shrinsaha at gmail.com  Thu May 10 14:31:44 2018
From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 20:01:44 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
Message-ID: <CAHuz+CpO2JooXqpa7EOztKOxYjo41A9x3yGkFnXK9evU3_W8tA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of
the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.



With regards,
Niranjan

Publications:
https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha


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From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu  Thu May 10 14:53:06 2018
From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 14:53:06 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <CAHuz+CpO2JooXqpa7EOztKOxYjo41A9x3yGkFnXK9evU3_W8tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5F571B94D36DB4AA048E0CF279CFC700111D03C90@tabvmexdag1mb06.tufts.ad.tufts.edu>

See:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/6_sastra/3_phil/buddh/bsa025_u.htm
-j


Joseph Walser

Associate Professor

Department of Religion

Tufts University

________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:31 AM
To: Indology
Cc: Patitapaban Das
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.

Dear List,

Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.



With regards,
Niranjan

Publications:
https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha




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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu May 10 14:56:54 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 14:56:54 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw:  Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB16969C61E269B5359DAA94DAA1980@MWHPR11MB1696.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB1696C4B879966513E29D6D99A1980@MWHPR11MB1696.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>



Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago


________________________________
From: Matthew Kapstein
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:44 AM
To: Niranjan Saha
Cc: Patitapaban Das
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.


Dear Niranjan,


The title is actually RatnAvali and the later Michael Hahn's edition is available here:

http://www.iet-verlag.de/


I do not know if there is an e-text of his edition available, however.


The version given in the Digital Sanskrit Buddhist Canon is quite outdated (derived from Vaidya's reedition of Tucci's edition), but may be accessed here:

http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/book/233


I believe that some additional may have appeared in recent years, but I cannot locate the references just now (or perhaps my memory about this is in error).


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 9:31:44 AM
To: Indology
Cc: Patitapaban Das
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.

Dear List,

Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.



With regards,
Niranjan

Publications:
https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha




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From yogacara at gmail.com  Thu May 10 15:08:28 2018
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 11:08:28 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <CAHuz+CpO2JooXqpa7EOztKOxYjo41A9x3yGkFnXK9evU3_W8tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56ACA190-CB4D-4D1E-BE78-270E413A3E84@gmail.com>

Do you mean the ayurvedic/magical text, Yoga Ratnam?l?, attributed to N?g?rjuna?

If so, there is a hardcopy version, with the 140 Sanskrit verses (in devanagari) and an English translation, accompanied by a Sanskrit commentary by Jain MUni Shri Gunakara called Laghu Viv?tti.

Pushpendra Kumar, Nagarjuna?s Yogaratnamala, Delhi: Nag Publishers, 1980.

I don?t know of an e-version.

Dan Lusthaus

> On May 10, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear List,
> 
> Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
> 
> 
> 
> With regards,
> Niranjan
> 
> Publications:
> https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha <https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu May 10 15:13:23 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 15:13:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <56ACA190-CB4D-4D1E-BE78-270E413A3E84@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB1696BF6E7A27150560E43691A1980@MWHPR11MB1696.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Dan,


The medical text is not the RAjaparikathA....


best,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:08:28 AM
To: Niranjan Saha
Cc: Patitapaban Das; Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.

Do you mean the ayurvedic/magical text, Yoga Ratnam?l?, attributed to N?g?rjuna?

If so, there is a hardcopy version, with the 140 Sanskrit verses (in devanagari) and an English translation, accompanied by a Sanskrit commentary by Jain MUni Shri Gunakara called Laghu Viv?tti.

Pushpendra Kumar, Nagarjuna?s Yogaratnamala, Delhi: Nag Publishers, 1980.

I don?t know of an e-version.

Dan Lusthaus

On May 10, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear List,

Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.



With regards,
Niranjan

Publications:
https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From yogacara at gmail.com  Thu May 10 15:16:13 2018
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 11:16:13 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB1696BF6E7A27150560E43691A1980@MWHPR11MB1696.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <9025EDC9-04E2-48EF-B3F7-7E099C5DAB73@gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,

And the R?japarikath?- is not the Ratnam?l?. Just trying to cover all the bases.

best,
Dan

> On May 10, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Dan,
> 
> The medical text is not the RAjaparikathA.... 
> 
> best,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, 
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:08:28 AM
> To: Niranjan Saha
> Cc: Patitapaban Das; Indology
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>  
> Do you mean the ayurvedic/magical text, Yoga Ratnam?l?, attributed to N?g?rjuna?
> 
> If so, there is a hardcopy version, with the 140 Sanskrit verses (in devanagari) and an English translation, accompanied by a Sanskrit commentary by Jain MUni Shri Gunakara called Laghu Viv?tti.
> 
> Pushpendra Kumar, Nagarjuna?s Yogaratnamala, Delhi: Nag Publishers, 1980.
> 
> I don?t know of an e-version.
> 
> Dan Lusthaus
> 
>> On May 10, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear List,
>> 
>> Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> With regards,
>> Niranjan
>> 
>> Publications:
>> https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha <https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu May 10 15:22:54 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 15:22:54 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <9025EDC9-04E2-48EF-B3F7-7E099C5DAB73@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB1696C391609876AF9126877AA1980@MWHPR11MB1696.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Dan,


The RatnAvali became the RAjaparikathAratnamAlA owing to a calque from the Tibetan, that was followed before the actual Skt. became known. It is not widely recognized that many of the "Sanskrit" titles given in the Kanjur and Tanjur are in fact calques of this kind, Tibetan back translations that are not derived from the Indic originals. In this case, the Tibetan is

rgyal po la gtam bya ba rin chen phreng ba.


best,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:16:13 AM
To: Matthew Kapstein
Cc: Niranjan Saha; Patitapaban Das; indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.

Dear Matthew,

And the R?japarikath?- is not the Ratnam?l?. Just trying to cover all the bases.

best,
Dan

On May 10, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu<mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>> wrote:

Dear Dan,

The medical text is not the RAjaparikathA....

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:08:28 AM
To: Niranjan Saha
Cc: Patitapaban Das; Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.

Do you mean the ayurvedic/magical text, Yoga Ratnam?l?, attributed to N?g?rjuna?

If so, there is a hardcopy version, with the 140 Sanskrit verses (in devanagari) and an English translation, accompanied by a Sanskrit commentary by Jain MUni Shri Gunakara called Laghu Viv?tti.

Pushpendra Kumar, Nagarjuna?s Yogaratnamala, Delhi: Nag Publishers, 1980.

I don?t know of an e-version.

Dan Lusthaus

On May 10, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear List,

Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.



With regards,
Niranjan

Publications:
https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From yogacara at gmail.com  Thu May 10 15:35:09 2018
From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 11:35:09 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB1696C391609876AF9126877AA1980@MWHPR11MB1696.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <DE3230BF-F793-46A4-AE1D-09BEC210FFEE@gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for the clarification. Actually the same thing happened with Nanjio Bunyiu?s 1883 catalogue of titles in the Chinese canon, in which he attempted to create back-translated Sanskrit titles, most resulting in bogus titles that were nonetheless copied and repeated throughout most of the 20th century and still appear from time to time, even when actual titles have been discovered or a text has been identified as an East Asian apocryphon purporting to be a Chinese translation of an Indian text and thus had no Indic title. Additionally, many Chinese titles of Buddhist texts include classification information of the type of text, affiliation, etc., which were not part of the original Indic title, which many scholars still include when rendering the titles into Sanskrit. There are parts of Tibetan titles that are the same.

best,
Dan

> On May 10, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Dan,
> 
> The RatnAvali became the RAjaparikathAratnamAlA owing to a calque from the Tibetan, that was followed before the actual Skt. became known. It is not widely recognized that many of the "Sanskrit" titles given in the Kanjur and Tanjur are in fact calques of this kind, Tibetan back translations that are not derived from the Indic originals. In this case, the Tibetan is 
> rgyal po la gtam bya ba rin chen phreng ba.
> 
> best,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, 
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> From: Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com <mailto:yogacara at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:16:13 AM
> To: Matthew Kapstein
> Cc: Niranjan Saha; Patitapaban Das; indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>  
> Dear Matthew,
> 
> And the R?japarikath?- is not the Ratnam?l?. Just trying to cover all the bases.
> 
> best,
> Dan
> 
>> On May 10, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu <mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Dan,
>> 
>> The medical text is not the RAjaparikathA.... 
>> 
>> best,
>> Matthew
>> 
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'?tudes, 
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>> 
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:08:28 AM
>> To: Niranjan Saha
>> Cc: Patitapaban Das; Indology
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>>  
>> Do you mean the ayurvedic/magical text, Yoga Ratnam?l?, attributed to N?g?rjuna?
>> 
>> If so, there is a hardcopy version, with the 140 Sanskrit verses (in devanagari) and an English translation, accompanied by a Sanskrit commentary by Jain MUni Shri Gunakara called Laghu Viv?tti.
>> 
>> Pushpendra Kumar, Nagarjuna?s Yogaratnamala, Delhi: Nag Publishers, 1980.
>> 
>> I don?t know of an e-version.
>> 
>> Dan Lusthaus
>> 
>>> On May 10, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear List,
>>> 
>>> Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> With regards,
>>> Niranjan
>>> 
>>> Publications:
>>> https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha <https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Thu May 10 15:43:12 2018
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 17:43:12 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Association_between_n=C4=81=E1=B8=8D=C4=ABs_and_dv=C4=81ras_within_Jainism=3F?=
Message-ID: <facad8df9c6c7e9e763e72b3d03609a0@fabularasa.dk>

Dear all,

I am currently working on an analysis of Jain gy?n b?z? (Snakes & 
Ladders) charts. Evidence seems to indicate that the nine snakes which 
routinely appear on the charts are associated with "the nine great 
energy channels" (mah? nav n???) of the human body, and that the nine 
rows of the charts are likewise associated with the nine "gates" (dv?r) 
of the human body (i.e. eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, anus, urethra). The 
gates are furthermore associated with various rebirth categories, and 
the implied logic seems to be that by "closing off" the nine gates, one 
will be able to cut off the heads of the snakes, so to speak, stop the 
process of rebirth, and open up the tenth gate (brahmarandhra), thereby 
attaining liberation (and winning the game).

I am aware that Gorakhn?th associates ten n???s with the ten dv?ras in 
Siddhasiddh?ntapaddhati 1.67, but I have not been able to find a similar 
association within Jainism. It is not at all impossible that N?th 
thinking influenced the Jain charts in this respect, but I am not 
sufficiently well versed in Jain yoga to make such a call. If anybody is 
aware of such an association within Jainism or elsewhere, or perhaps 
even an association between dv?ras and rebirth categories, I would be 
very interested to know about it.

Kind regards,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Fellow (Indology)
University of Copenhagen
Denmark





From shrinsaha at gmail.com  Thu May 10 15:59:12 2018
From: shrinsaha at gmail.com (Niranjan Saha)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 21:29:12 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
In-Reply-To: <DE3230BF-F793-46A4-AE1D-09BEC210FFEE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHuz+CpQ9cLy_qgt3tLzzdFTCHC4oKfGxwMu0VG9vMvs4Ljcag@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patitpaban,

You may now see if you've got the copy/pdf  you were looking for, and write
off-list to those who have replied.


With thanks and regards,
Niranjan

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Matthew,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. Actually the same thing happened with Nanjio
> Bunyiu?s 1883 catalogue of titles in the Chinese canon, in which he
> attempted to create back-translated Sanskrit titles, most resulting in
> bogus titles that were nonetheless copied and repeated throughout most of
> the 20th century and still appear from time to time, even when actual
> titles have been discovered or a text has been identified as an East Asian
> apocryphon purporting to be a Chinese translation of an Indian text and
> thus had no Indic title. Additionally, many Chinese titles of Buddhist
> texts include classification information of the type of text, affiliation,
> etc., which were not part of the original Indic title, which many scholars
> still include when rendering the titles into Sanskrit. There are parts of
> Tibetan titles that are the same.
>
> best,
> Dan
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> The RatnAvali became the RAjaparikathAratnamAlA owing to a calque from the
> Tibetan, that was followed before the actual Skt. became known. It is not
> widely recognized that many of the "Sanskrit" titles given in the Kanjur
> and Tanjur are in fact calques of this kind, Tibetan back translations that
> are not derived from the Indic originals. In this case, the Tibetan is
> rgyal po la gtam bya ba rin chen phreng ba.
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dan Lusthaus <yogacara at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:16:13 AM
> *To:* Matthew Kapstein
> *Cc:* Niranjan Saha; Patitapaban Das; indology at list.indology.info
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>
> Dear Matthew,
>
> And the R?japarikath?- is not the Ratnam?l?. Just trying to cover all the
> bases.
>
> best,
> Dan
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> The medical text is not the RAjaparikathA....
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Dan
> Lusthaus via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2018 10:08:28 AM
> *To:* Niranjan Saha
> *Cc:* Patitapaban Das; Indology
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>
> Do you mean the ayurvedic/magical text, Yoga Ratnam?l?, attributed to
> N?g?rjuna?
>
> If so, there is a hardcopy version, with the 140 Sanskrit verses (in
> devanagari) and an English translation, accompanied by a Sanskrit
> commentary by Jain MUni Shri Gunakara called Laghu Viv?tti.
>
> Pushpendra Kumar, *Nagarjuna?s Yogaratnamala*, Delhi: Nag Publishers,
> 1980.
>
> I don?t know of an e-version.
>
> Dan Lusthaus
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Niranjan Saha via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear List,
>
> Might anybody could let me know of the availability of e-copy of
> the Rajaparikatharatnamala of Nagarjuna.
>
>
>
> With regards,
> Niranjan
>
> Publications:
> https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>


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From anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de  Thu May 10 16:20:17 2018
From: anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de (Anna Aurelia Esposito)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 18:20:17 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi Dictionary
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0902MB1753BD1ED932B7CCEB095851A5980@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20180510182017.Horde.En6Cc_V0kIjGIofzVHlL6Q1@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de>

Dear Prof. Griffiths,
did you look at Jain eLibrary?

https://jainelibrary.org/

I got my pdfs there, they are OK.

Best wishes,
Anna Esposito

Zitat von Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear colleagues,
>
>
> Does anyone have a better pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi  
> Dictionary than the DLI set which is available through archive.org?
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Arlo Griffiths



**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universitaet Wuerzburg
Lehrstuhl fuer Indologie / Suedasienkunde
Philosophiegebaude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
Bachgasse 3
97070 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3042293
**********
http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito
**********





From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 19:59:00 2018
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 19:59:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi Dictionary
In-Reply-To: <20180510182017.Horde.En6Cc_V0kIjGIofzVHlL6Q1@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0902MB17534B412F03C9F8D76601FDA5980@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks a lot Dr. Esposito. I had searched there previously without finding it. Now I have found it in the lefthand menu, under Dictionary, with the title Ardhamagadhi Kosha, in five parts.


Best wishes,

Arlo Griffiths


________________________________
From: Anna Aurelia Esposito <anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 4:20 PM
To: Arlo Griffiths
Cc: INDOLOGY
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi Dictionary

Dear Prof. Griffiths,
did you look at Jain eLibrary?

https://jainelibrary.org/

I got my pdfs there, they are OK.

Best wishes,
Anna Esposito

Zitat von Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear colleagues,
>
>
> Does anyone have a better pdf of An Illustrated Ardha-Magadhi
> Dictionary than the DLI set which is available through archive.org?
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Arlo Griffiths



**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universitaet Wuerzburg
Lehrstuhl fuer Indologie / Suedasienkunde
Philosophiegebaude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
Bachgasse 3
97070 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3042293
**********
http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito
**********


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Thu May 10 20:38:30 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 22:38:30 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Association_between_n=C4=81=E1=B8=8D=C4=ABs_and_dv=C4=81ras_within_Jainism=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <facad8df9c6c7e9e763e72b3d03609a0@fabularasa.dk>
Message-ID: <20180510223830.c6b1f32c86fced284048eac0@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Jacob,

I cannot help you with Jaina yoga texts, but in ha?hayoga texts the association of n???s with dv?ras is quite common. Or, to be more precise, most of the HY texts only list the main n???s (usually ten or fourteen), but some of them provide more details about their position. One of these systems (with 14 n???s) is described in the Vasi??hasa?hit? 2.34?40, where the link of n???s with dv?ras is as follows:

1/ kuh??: ?me?hr?nta?
2/ pi?gal?: y?mye n?s?nta?
3/ p???: y?mye netr?ntra?
4/ payasvin?: y?mye kar??ntam
5/ sarasvat?: ?jihv?y??
6/ ?a?khin?: ?savyakar??d
7/ g?ndh?r?: savyanetr?ntam
8/ i??: savyan?s?nta?
9/ alambu??: p?yum?l?d
The same verses are in Yogay?j?avalkya 4.39?45  (Divanji ed.) and similar system is e.g. in the compendium Ha?hatattvakaumud? 23.15?18.

More texts describe ten main n???s, e.g. ?ivasvarodaya (Lonavla ed.) 38?40:
i?? v?me sthit? bh?ge pi?gal? dak?i?e sm?t? |
su?umn? madhyade?e tu g?ndh?r? v?macak?u?i ?38?
dak?i?e hastijihv? ca p??? kar?e ca dak?i?e |
ya?asvin? v?makar?e ?nane c?py ala?bu?? ?39?
kuh?? ca li?gade?e tu m?lasth?ne tu ?a?khin? |
eva? dv?ra? sam??ritya ti??hanti da?a n??ik?? ?40?
= Gorak?a?ataka 29?31 (Nowotny ed.) etc.; slightly different system is in ?ar?gadharapaddhati 4309?4312.

Many of these verses are used in various Yogopani?ads, e.g.:
Dar?anopani?ad 4.13?22
Yogac???ma?yupani?ad 18?21
Brahmayogin on ????ilyopani?ad 1.10
cf. also J?b?ladar?anopani?ad 3.7?22.

Outside the yoga texts, several later tantras make this connection too, see e.g. Ahirbudhnyasa?hit? 32.24?30.

Thus it seems that in various Hindu yoga systems the association of n???s with dv?ras was common. This, however, does not mean anything for Jaina yoga. A few Jaina texts I am familiar with (e.g. Hemacandra's Yoga??stra or Haribhadra's Yogad???isamuccaya) do not describe system of n???s. I would recommend you to check Hemacandra's autocommentary on his Yoga??stra (Svopaj?avivara?a) - this is a great treasure of Jaina yoga concepts.

Best,
Lubomir





On Thu, 10 May 2018 17:43:12 +0200
Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> I am currently working on an analysis of Jain gy?n b?z? (Snakes & 
> Ladders) charts. Evidence seems to indicate that the nine snakes which 
> routinely appear on the charts are associated with "the nine great 
> energy channels" (mah? nav n???) of the human body, and that the nine 
> rows of the charts are likewise associated with the nine "gates" (dv?r) 
> of the human body (i.e. eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, anus, urethra). The 
> gates are furthermore associated with various rebirth categories, and 
> the implied logic seems to be that by "closing off" the nine gates, one 
> will be able to cut off the heads of the snakes, so to speak, stop the 
> process of rebirth, and open up the tenth gate (brahmarandhra), thereby 
> attaining liberation (and winning the game).
> 
> I am aware that Gorakhn?th associates ten n???s with the ten dv?ras in 
> Siddhasiddh?ntapaddhati 1.67, but I have not been able to find a similar 
> association within Jainism. It is not at all impossible that N?th 
> thinking influenced the Jain charts in this respect, but I am not 
> sufficiently well versed in Jain yoga to make such a call. If anybody is 
> aware of such an association within Jainism or elsewhere, or perhaps 
> even an association between dv?ras and rebirth categories, I would be 
> very interested to know about it.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Jacob
> 
> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
> PhD Fellow (Indology)
> University of Copenhagen
> Denmark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Thu May 10 22:19:00 2018
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 00:19:00 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Association_between_n=C4=81=E1=B8=8D=C4=ABs_and_dv=C4=81ras_within_Jainism=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <20180510223830.c6b1f32c86fced284048eac0@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <716bba0d658da6d3d045e1199ce9f343@fabularasa.dk>

Dear Lubom?r,

Many thanks for taking the time to answer my query in such detail. It is 
greatly appreciated.

I had a quick look at the Svopaj?avivara?a commentary on Y? V.61-9 which 
describe the three main n???s (i??, pi?gal?, su?um??), but did not find 
any mention of further n???s or dv?ras. I will have to look more closely 
at other passages as well, but as you mentioned yourself it does not 
seem to include a more developed system of n???s.

I might also add that about half of the approximately sixty Jain gy?n 
b?z? charts included in my analysis features a verse describing them as 
"the game of the nameless brahman" (an?mat brahm k? b?j?) which seems to 
indicate outside (possibly N?th) influence.

Once again, thank you so much.

Best regards,
Jacob

Lubom?r Ondra?ka skrev den 2018-05-10 22:38:
> Dear Jacob,
> 
> I cannot help you with Jaina yoga texts, but in ha?hayoga texts the
> association of n???s with dv?ras is quite common. Or, to be more
> precise, most of the HY texts only list the main n???s (usually ten or
> fourteen), but some of them provide more details about their position.
> One of these systems (with 14 n???s) is described in the
> Vasi??hasa?hit? 2.34?40, where the link of n???s with dv?ras is as
> follows:
> 
> 1/ kuh??: ?me?hr?nta?
> 2/ pi?gal?: y?mye n?s?nta?
> 3/ p???: y?mye netr?ntra?
> 4/ payasvin?: y?mye kar??ntam
> 5/ sarasvat?: ?jihv?y??
> 6/ ?a?khin?: ?savyakar??d
> 7/ g?ndh?r?: savyanetr?ntam
> 8/ i??: savyan?s?nta?
> 9/ alambu??: p?yum?l?d
> The same verses are in Yogay?j?avalkya 4.39?45  (Divanji ed.) and
> similar system is e.g. in the compendium Ha?hatattvakaumud? 23.15?18.
> 
> More texts describe ten main n???s, e.g. ?ivasvarodaya (Lonavla ed.) 
> 38?40:
> i?? v?me sthit? bh?ge pi?gal? dak?i?e sm?t? |
> su?umn? madhyade?e tu g?ndh?r? v?macak?u?i ?38?
> dak?i?e hastijihv? ca p??? kar?e ca dak?i?e |
> ya?asvin? v?makar?e ?nane c?py ala?bu?? ?39?
> kuh?? ca li?gade?e tu m?lasth?ne tu ?a?khin? |
> eva? dv?ra? sam??ritya ti??hanti da?a n??ik?? ?40?
> = Gorak?a?ataka 29?31 (Nowotny ed.) etc.; slightly different system is
> in ?ar?gadharapaddhati 4309?4312.
> 
> Many of these verses are used in various Yogopani?ads, e.g.:
> Dar?anopani?ad 4.13?22
> Yogac???ma?yupani?ad 18?21
> Brahmayogin on ????ilyopani?ad 1.10
> cf. also J?b?ladar?anopani?ad 3.7?22.
> 
> Outside the yoga texts, several later tantras make this connection
> too, see e.g. Ahirbudhnyasa?hit? 32.24?30.
> 
> Thus it seems that in various Hindu yoga systems the association of
> n???s with dv?ras was common. This, however, does not mean anything
> for Jaina yoga. A few Jaina texts I am familiar with (e.g.
> Hemacandra's Yoga??stra or Haribhadra's Yogad???isamuccaya) do not
> describe system of n???s. I would recommend you to check Hemacandra's
> autocommentary on his Yoga??stra (Svopaj?avivara?a) - this is a great
> treasure of Jaina yoga concepts.
> 
> Best,
> Lubomir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 10 May 2018 17:43:12 +0200
> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> I am currently working on an analysis of Jain gy?n b?z? (Snakes &
>> Ladders) charts. Evidence seems to indicate that the nine snakes which
>> routinely appear on the charts are associated with "the nine great
>> energy channels" (mah? nav n???) of the human body, and that the nine
>> rows of the charts are likewise associated with the nine "gates" 
>> (dv?r)
>> of the human body (i.e. eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, anus, urethra). 
>> The
>> gates are furthermore associated with various rebirth categories, and
>> the implied logic seems to be that by "closing off" the nine gates, 
>> one
>> will be able to cut off the heads of the snakes, so to speak, stop the
>> process of rebirth, and open up the tenth gate (brahmarandhra), 
>> thereby
>> attaining liberation (and winning the game).
>> 
>> I am aware that Gorakhn?th associates ten n???s with the ten dv?ras in
>> Siddhasiddh?ntapaddhati 1.67, but I have not been able to find a 
>> similar
>> association within Jainism. It is not at all impossible that N?th
>> thinking influenced the Jain charts in this respect, but I am not
>> sufficiently well versed in Jain yoga to make such a call. If anybody 
>> is
>> aware of such an association within Jainism or elsewhere, or perhaps
>> even an association between dv?ras and rebirth categories, I would be
>> very interested to know about it.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> Jacob
>> 
>> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
>> PhD Fellow (Indology)
>> University of Copenhagen
>> Denmark
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or unsubscribe)





From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri May 11 05:02:47 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 22:02:47 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reaching 200 verses on Krishna
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcJk+DjPJZeF-rsq6R=HGf2nBONpudMvvombR1ZwrW-Mg@mail.gmail.com>

Reaching the completion of my 200 verses on Krishna [Will it continue
beyond, I don't know]:

????????? ??????: ????? ?????? ? ???? ?

???????? ????????? ???????????? ??? ???????

What kind of a great thief you are, O M?dhava?  You were not satisfied with
[stealing] yoghurt [from the milkmaids of Gokula].  You also stole the
great ignorance of Arjuna on the battlefield.


????????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????: ?

??????????????????? ??????? ?? ?????? ???????

O Kr???a, I am a friend of yours.  Becoming a helper to me, please take
away the ignorance spread around me on the battlefield of my mind.


?????? ??? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?

????? ?? ????????????? ?? ????? ?????? ???????

On the battlefield of my mind, how can fight against the enemies without
your assistance?  Do become a helper to me in this battle of mine and stand
on the chariot of my mind.


???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???????????? ?

?????????????? ????? ??????? ?????????: ???????

Seeing you near me as the driver of the chariot of my  mind, determined for
battle, O Kr???a, I will destroy the unrighteousness [in my mind].


???? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ?

????? ?? ????????? ?????? ?? ???????????: ???????

I have heard that where you are there is the victory.  With you in my
heart, I will certainly conquer my mind.


????????????????????? ?????? ????????? ?

?????????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????

By the touch of the sandalwood paste on your body, the water of Yamun? was
purified.  O Kr???a, purify my mind with the touch of your feet.


?? ??????? ??? ???????????? ???? ??????? ?

?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ???????

O Lord, I do not ask for anything other than your friendship.  Your
friendship is the highest bliss.  O Kr???a, may I have that.


????? ?? ???????? ???: ????? ?? ????????? ?

????? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???????

What a difference between my pedestrian words and the greatness of your
qualities?  Even so, accept with love my offering of words.


???????????????? ??????? ?? ????????? ?

?????? ?????????? ????????? ???????????? ???????

With your grace, my the stream of my words keep on flowing entertaining the
heart.


??????? ?????????? ????????? ???? ?

???? ?? ??? ?? ???????????? ??? ?? ???????

O Govinda, the Delight of Gokula, Joy of Heart, O M?dhava, may your honey
be in my words, and I offer it at your feet.


???????? ???????? ??????? ???? ?? ?

??????????????????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???????

Let my words, words of M?dhava, inspired by M?dhava [=Kr???a] and inspiring
love for M?dhava, lead to the delight of good-hearted [readers].


Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri May 11 05:33:48 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 10 May 18 22:33:48 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Reaching 200 verses on Krishna
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzcJk+DjPJZeF-rsq6R=HGf2nBONpudMvvombR1ZwrW-Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfSJu8cuf1JdqMvfg01PuK=jP-TwW2KWJEA6+TZsB-0Tw@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the corrected reading for one of the verses:

????????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????: ?
???????????????????? ??????? ?? ?????? ???????

O Kr???a, I am a friend of yours. Becoming a helper to me, you took away
the ignorance spread around me on the battlefield of my mind.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


2018-05-10 22:02 GMT-07:00 Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>:

> Reaching the completion of my 200 verses on Krishna [Will it continue
> beyond, I don't know]:
>
> ????????? ??????: ????? ?????? ? ???? ?
>
> ???????? ????????? ???????????? ??? ???????
>
> What kind of a great thief you are, O M?dhava?  You were not satisfied
> with [stealing] yoghurt [from the milkmaids of Gokula].  You also stole
> the great ignorance of Arjuna on the battlefield.
>
>
> ????????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????: ?
>
> ??????????????????? ??????? ?? ?????? ???????
>
> O Kr???a, I am a friend of yours.  Becoming a helper to me, please take
> away the ignorance spread around me on the battlefield of my mind.
>
>
> ?????? ??? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?
>
> ????? ?? ????????????? ?? ????? ?????? ???????
>
> On the battlefield of my mind, how can fight against the enemies without
> your assistance?  Do become a helper to me in this battle of mine and
> stand on the chariot of my mind.
>
>
> ???????? ?? ???????? ????? ???????????? ?
>
> ?????????????? ????? ??????? ?????????: ???????
>
> Seeing you near me as the driver of the chariot of my  mind, determined
> for battle, O Kr???a, I will destroy the unrighteousness [in my mind].
>
>
> ???? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ?
>
> ????? ?? ????????? ?????? ?? ???????????: ???????
>
> I have heard that where you are there is the victory.  With you in my
> heart, I will certainly conquer my mind.
>
>
> ????????????????????? ?????? ????????? ?
>
> ?????????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????
>
> By the touch of the sandalwood paste on your body, the water of Yamun? was
> purified.  O Kr???a, purify my mind with the touch of your feet.
>
>
> ?? ??????? ??? ???????????? ???? ??????? ?
>
> ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ???????
>
> O Lord, I do not ask for anything other than your friendship.  Your
> friendship is the highest bliss.  O Kr???a, may I have that.
>
>
> ????? ?? ???????? ???: ????? ?? ????????? ?
>
> ????? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ???????
>
> What a difference between my pedestrian words and the greatness of your
> qualities?  Even so, accept with love my offering of words.
>
>
> ???????????????? ??????? ?? ????????? ?
>
> ?????? ?????????? ????????? ???????????? ???????
>
> With your grace, my the stream of my words keep on flowing entertaining
> the heart.
>
>
> ??????? ?????????? ????????? ???? ?
>
> ???? ?? ??? ?? ???????????? ??? ?? ???????
>
> O Govinda, the Delight of Gokula, Joy of Heart, O M?dhava, may your honey
> be in my words, and I offer it at your feet.
>
>
> ???????? ???????? ??????? ???? ?? ?
>
> ??????????????????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???????
>
> Let my words, words of M?dhava, inspired by M?dhava [=Kr???a] and
> inspiring love for M?dhava, lead to the delight of good-hearted [readers].
>
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Campbell, California
>
>


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From royce.wiles at gmail.com  Fri May 11 09:59:35 2018
From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 19:59:35 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death of Luise Anna Hercus (nee Schwarzschild) (1926-2018)
Message-ID: <EAF95573-AED6-44AA-A50E-012BF5C86EA8@gmail.com>

Dear colleagues

I have today attended the very well-attended ceremony to mark the passing away of Luise Anna Schwarzschild (LA Hercus) a few weeks ago?Luise's exemplary and important work on the grammar of Middle Indo-Aryan dialects spanned many decades until the mid- to late-1970s. Luise was a mainstay of the teaching of Sanskrit and Prakrits at the Australian National University (ANU) in Canberra for many decades; her quirky, engrossing and inspiring classes will be remembered by any who had the good fortune to sit in on them.

>From the early 1960s onwards her research focus included an incredible amount ?salvage-linguisitcs? focused on the vanishing Aboriginal languages of Australia; she made many pioneering and exceptionally important contributions to both the recording of vestigal and threatened languages (including many hundreds of hours of reel-to-reel tapes done under difficult circumstances in remote desert and outback locations)?she published numerous grammars and translations (for more details the Wikipedia entry is helpful).

An obituary has been published in the Australian newspaper
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/indigenous/obituary-dr-luise-anna-hercus-ao/news-story/3fca363b4d9cbcb8f26932a9de00f1d6 <https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/indigenous/obituary-dr-luise-anna-hercus-ao/news-story/3fca363b4d9cbcb8f26932a9de00f1d6>

Regards

Royce WILES


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Fri May 11 15:21:36 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 10:21:36 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Death of Luise Anna Hercus (nee Schwarzschild) (1926-2018)
In-Reply-To: <EAF95573-AED6-44AA-A50E-012BF5C86EA8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO15N_pAMT8d_TVzJ5e8U+A64Kt4mcFeVzkAtuTKMLvAmAg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Royce, for this news. Her work on Middle Indic is truly exemplary:
focused, rich in linguistic insight, and based on a wide and careful
reading of texts. I had no idea, though I am not surprised, that she also
made similarly profound contributions to the study of Australian languages.
m??a?ijja? cea j?a?.

2018-05-11 4:59 GMT-05:00 Royce Wiles via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear colleagues
>
> I have today attended the very well-attended ceremony to mark the passing
> away of Luise Anna Schwarzschild (LA Hercus) a few weeks ago?Luise's
> exemplary and important work on the grammar of Middle Indo-Aryan dialects
> spanned many decades until the mid- to late-1970s. Luise was a mainstay of
> the teaching of Sanskrit and Prakrits at the Australian National University
> (ANU) in Canberra for many decades; her quirky, engrossing and inspiring
> classes will be remembered by any who had the good fortune to sit in on
> them.
>
> From the early 1960s onwards her research focus included an incredible
> amount ?salvage-linguisitcs? focused on the vanishing Aboriginal languages
> of Australia; she made many pioneering and exceptionally important
> contributions to both the recording of vestigal and threatened languages
> (including many hundreds of hours of reel-to-reel tapes done under
> difficult circumstances in remote desert and outback locations)?she
> published numerous grammars and translations (for more details the
> Wikipedia entry is helpful).
>
> An obituary has been published in the Australian newspaper
> https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/
> indigenous/obituary-dr-luise-anna-hercus-ao/news-story/
> 3fca363b4d9cbcb8f26932a9de00f1d6
>
> Regards
>
> Royce WILES
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Fri May 11 16:55:29 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 10:55:29 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Petition to complete the New Catalogus Catalogorum
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcFW9zhR=GczAdj0ywPZ5DVYaGeed=zkCPWvyzoh8kRwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeY9B0Ez1mDvZ8zJ2bUwyoEUO8JPGTFYfsf5NuvcKidrA@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to thank those of you who wrote in support of the letter to Dr
Duraisamy, the Vice Chancellor of the University of Madras, requesting him
to help complete the *New Catalogus Catalogorum*.

I sent the letter today, with seventy-three signatures in addition to my
own.

Again, thank you all very much indeed!

Dominik

?
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?
??


?


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From rajam at earthlink.net  Fri May 11 20:39:03 2018
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 13:39:03 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <6CA66377-D0AA-4248-9920-2F6ACB7711E2@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <D3CD0569-27A3-4A07-A450-10268FAED718@earthlink.net>

Dear List Members,

[Disclaimer: I?m not a social historian, nor an interpretive socio-anthro person, nor an etymologist. I?m just a morphologist/grammarian. ;-) I?m not an expert in ?dating? any ancient texts. In fact, I won?t worry if someone declares that the Tolkappiyam was written/verbally transmitted in the remotely unknown BCE times or in the late CE times. What matters to me is the content of the Tolkappiyam, which is quite sophisticated in my opinion.]

Anyway, I have some questions which occurred when I read through this discussion thread.

Questions:

1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?

2. This question is for George. George, could you please explain the ?layer?ed aspect of the Tolkappiyam? Exactly which parts of the Tolkappiyam are layered and how? 

I?ve heard about this ?layer?ed business of the Tolkappiyam in the Tamil circles where some people are like parrots just repeating what the West has said. But, so far, to my knowledge, no one seems to have explained precisely what parts of the Tolkappiyam belong to which layer, and so on. 

3. This question is for everybody ascribing to the ?layer?ed nature of the Tolkappiyam. So ? if it took several centuries to compose the Tolkappiyam, how many authors were involved? Why only one author is known now and what happened to the rest?

I would appreciate precise answers to my questions.

Thanks and regards,
rajam


> On May 7, 2018, at 8:26 AM, George Hart via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> It was my impression that, like many older Indian works (cf. the Vy?sa Mah?bh?rata, the Rig Veda, probably the N??ya??stra), the Tolk?ppiyam is a collection of things that may have been composed at different dates. Some parts may be quite early, some later, but I would be pretty surprised if anything in the work is as late as the 9th century. My opinion is that parts of the work may go back to (or mirror/be influenced by) things as early as the 1st century BCE (and conceivably even earlier) while other parts may be as late as the 3rd or even 4th century CE. Burnell's work relating the Tolk?ppiyam to the Sanskrit Aindra (On the Aindra School of Sanskrit Grammarians: Their Place in the Sanskrit, available on Google) is important. One might note that P??ini describes things that are earlier than the Sanskrit used when he composed his work ? I am not a vaiy?kara?ika, but I am sure people on this list can speak to this. The writers of grammars, whether in Sanskrit or Tamil, do not appear out of thin air. George
> 
>> On May 7, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Paniappan, 
>> As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated. 
>> Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is prescriptive for the first time. 
>> In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
>> Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this issue. 
>> Best regards, 
>> Jan Houben
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:
>>  
>> "From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
>>  
>> "It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..." 
>> 
>> In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.  
>> The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.
>> 
>> ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Palaniappan
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jan E.M. Houben
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
>> johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>
>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>
>> <Outlook-1506959459.jpg>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri May 11 23:44:22 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 18:44:22 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <D3CD0569-27A3-4A07-A450-10268FAED718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1DBEF46F-F98A-4B33-B18E-0120DB9F221F@aol.com>

The question of the name ?Tolk?ppiyam? being related to ?k?vya' arises only if the name of the author, Tolk?ppiya?, is derived from his work. But that does not seem to be the case according to the p?yiram of the Tolk?ppiyam. According to the p?yiram of the Tolk?ppiyam, his name was Tolk?ppiya?. Since the p?yiram is supposed to be produced at the beginning of a text?s existence, it is unlikely, the author would be named after the grammar at that stage. Then the question has to be changed to whether he could have been named after some exemplary k?vya he had authored before producing his grammar. That seems unlikely also since the author is only praised for his knowledge of Aintiram, a possible grammatical text and not a k?vya. It is high time we give up relating the name ?Tolk?ppiyam' to k?vya.

On the other hand, the name k?ppiya? has been discussed in this list earlier as derived from a gotra name. See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-April/127593.html. See attachment for SII 8, no. 196.

Regards,
Palaniappan




> On May 11, 2018, at 3:39 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> 1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?



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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Fri May 11 23:53:23 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 18:53:23 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <1DBEF46F-F98A-4B33-B18E-0120DB9F221F@aol.com>
Message-ID: <12718258-B166-4756-BE6A-F211C0FF83BD@aol.com>

Sorry, here is the attachment I forgot to attach.



Regards,
Palaniappan

> On May 11, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> The question of the name ?Tolk?ppiyam? being related to ?k?vya' arises only if the name of the author, Tolk?ppiya?, is derived from his work. But that does not seem to be the case according to the p?yiram of the Tolk?ppiyam. According to the p?yiram of the Tolk?ppiyam, his name was Tolk?ppiya?. Since the p?yiram is supposed to be produced at the beginning of a text?s existence, it is unlikely, the author would be named after the grammar at that stage. Then the question has to be changed to whether he could have been named after some exemplary k?vya he had authored before producing his grammar. That seems unlikely also since the author is only praised for his knowledge of Aintiram, a possible grammatical text and not a k?vya. It is high time we give up relating the name ?Tolk?ppiyam' to k?vya.
> 
> On the other hand, the name k?ppiya? has been discussed in this list earlier as derived from a gotra name. See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-April/127593.html <http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-April/127593.html>. See attachment for SII 8, no. 196.
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 11, 2018, at 3:39 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> 1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?
> 





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From rajam at earthlink.net  Sat May 12 01:13:51 2018
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 18:13:51 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <12718258-B166-4756-BE6A-F211C0FF83BD@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8DD09E82-2539-411B-BD8F-46273AD85AA2@earthlink.net>

Thanks! My comments are inserted below.


> On May 11, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, here is the attachment I forgot to attach.
> 
> <SII volume 8, number 196.pdf>
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
>> On May 11, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <palaniappa at aol.com <mailto:palaniappa at aol.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The question of the name ?Tolk?ppiyam? being related to ?k?vya' arises only if the name of the author, Tolk?ppiya?, is derived from his work. But that does not seem to be the case according to the p?yiram of the Tolk?ppiyam. According to the p?yiram of the Tolk?ppiyam, his name was Tolk?ppiya?.

It?s not just in the p?yiram (???????), but in I?amp?ra?ar?s commentary also we find the word Tolk?ppiya? as the name of the author and Tolk?ppiyam as the name of the book. 

Reference: Tolkappiyam, collatik?ram, v???umai mayankiyal 33

For the benefit of all those who can read Tamil:

? ??????????????? ????????????? ????????????? ?



>> Since the p?yiram is supposed to be produced at the beginning of a text?s existence, it is unlikely, the author would be named after the grammar at that stage. Then the question has to be changed to whether he could have been named after some exemplary k?vya he had authored before producing his grammar. That seems unlikely also since the author is only praised for his knowledge of Aintiram, a possible grammatical text and not a k?vya. It is high time we give up relating the name ?Tolk?ppiyam' to k?vya.
>> 
>> On the other hand, the name k?ppiya? has been discussed in this list earlier as derived from a gotra name. See http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-April/127593.html <http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2009-April/127593.html>. See attachment for SII 8, no. 196.


Good! I just saw them.


>> 
>> Regards,
>> Palaniappan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 11, 2018, at 3:39 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?
>> 
> 



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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Sat May 12 01:31:19 2018
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Fri, 11 May 18 21:31:19 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <D3CD0569-27A3-4A07-A450-10268FAED718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4BEE3F21-FAFC-4CA7-911E-28C6A2E3F8B0@berkeley.edu>

Dear Rajam,

As you know, I am not an expert on the Tolk?ppiyam. With that proviso, let me respond to your post. 

1. Regarding the derivation of Tolk?ppiyam, I had the same problem you did. To translate ?Tolk?ppiyam? as ?Old K?vya? does not make sense, since the work is not a k?vya.

(My comments on to 2 and 3 do not apply to the Poru?atik?ram, which is not a grammatical work in the common sense of the term).

2. As far as ?layers? are concerned, my point was that after the Tolk?ppiyam was written down, it might have come into the keeping of a group of (Jain?) scholars, monks, or others who wished to keep it current and added to it or emended it. It is possible, though obviously it?s just speculation, that the section on the pu??i was added when the ?dot? (pu??i) started to be incorporated into the writing system. It is equally possible that the work itself postdates the appearance of the pu??i and that it is not layered at all but is actually the product of one person (or conceivably a group of people) who lived at a certain period. 

3.  It seems to me likely that if the text was added to and/or emended, those who did so would have been careful to keep the name of the original author in order to maintain the legitimacy of the text.

I wonder whether there is any way additions or emendations, if they exist, could be identified. Is there a change in the use of language or any other aspect of the text/content that could be identified as not fitting with some of the other parts of the work? I think this is unlikely, as the emenders (if they existed) would have been careful to add/change things so they appeared to fit with the older text. 

I think a better case can be made that the Poru?atik?ram is layered, or at least that it has disparate elements. It is my impression that the grammatical parts of the Tolk?ppiyam (Collatik?ram, E?uttatik?ram) are more coherent.

George


> On May 11, 2018, at 4:39 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear List Members,
> 
> [Disclaimer: I?m not a social historian, nor an interpretive socio-anthro person, nor an etymologist. I?m just a morphologist/grammarian. ;-) I?m not an expert in ?dating? any ancient texts. In fact, I won?t worry if someone declares that the Tolkappiyam was written/verbally transmitted in the remotely unknown BCE times or in the late CE times. What matters to me is the content of the Tolkappiyam, which is quite sophisticated in my opinion.]
> 
> Anyway, I have some questions which occurred when I read through this discussion thread.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?
> 
> 2. This question is for George. George, could you please explain the ?layer?ed aspect of the Tolkappiyam? Exactly which parts of the Tolkappiyam are layered and how? 
> 
> I?ve heard about this ?layer?ed business of the Tolkappiyam in the Tamil circles where some people are like parrots just repeating what the West has said. But, so far, to my knowledge, no one seems to have explained precisely what parts of the Tolkappiyam belong to which layer, and so on. 
> 
> 3. This question is for everybody ascribing to the ?layer?ed nature of the Tolkappiyam. So ? if it took several centuries to compose the Tolkappiyam, how many authors were involved? Why only one author is known now and what happened to the rest?
> 
> I would appreciate precise answers to my questions.
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> rajam
> 
> 
>> On May 7, 2018, at 8:26 AM, George Hart via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> It was my impression that, like many older Indian works (cf. the Vy?sa Mah?bh?rata, the Rig Veda, probably the N??ya??stra), the Tolk?ppiyam is a collection of things that may have been composed at different dates. Some parts may be quite early, some later, but I would be pretty surprised if anything in the work is as late as the 9th century. My opinion is that parts of the work may go back to (or mirror/be influenced by) things as early as the 1st century BCE (and conceivably even earlier) while other parts may be as late as the 3rd or even 4th century CE. Burnell's work relating the Tolk?ppiyam to the Sanskrit Aindra (On the Aindra School of Sanskrit Grammarians: Their Place in the Sanskrit, available on Google) is important. One might note that P??ini describes things that are earlier than the Sanskrit used when he composed his work ? I am not a vaiy?kara?ika, but I am sure people on this list can speak to this. The writers of grammars, whether in Sanskrit or Tamil, do not appear out of thin air. George
>> 
>>> On May 7, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Paniappan, 
>>> As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated. 
>>> Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is prescriptive for the first time. 
>>> In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
>>> Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this issue. 
>>> Best regards, 
>>> Jan Houben
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:
>>>  
>>> "From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
>>>  
>>> "It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..." 
>>> 
>>> In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.  
>>> The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.
>>> 
>>> ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Palaniappan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Jan E.M. Houben
>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
>>> johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>
>>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>
>>> <Outlook-1506959459.jpg>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat May 12 14:30:07 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 07:30:07 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzck=RN5EnvTRj--BJ3PMrSMBbR2nG6iDMm5YHQS6rXaYw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

??????? ?? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ?

????????? ?????? ? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

Bearing the touch of your feet as you were dancing in the courtyard of
Gokula, the earth shook up with excitement and joy.


?????? ???????????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?

???????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

When you did your dance of destruction on the head of the Kaliya snake,
watching that with fear, and yet pleased, the earth shook up.


???????? ???? ???????? ??????????????????: ?

????????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

When you were just born from your mother Devak? in the prison, you showed
her your cosmic form.  Seeing that the earth shook up.


?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ?

?????  ??? ?? ?????, ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

Even though you were just a child, you felled and killed the huge demoness
P?tan? who had come to give you poison.  At that time, the earth shook up.


?????? ????????? ????????? ????? ?? ?

???????? ????? ??????????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

Seeing you dancing with R?dh? on the bank of Yamun?, the earth shook up
with a surge of love.


????????: ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?

????? ????????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

When Akr?ra came to take you to Mathur?, unable to bear your separation,
the earth shook up.


???????? ??? ???: ?????????? ????????? ?

???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

When the evil-doer Kamsa was killed by you in Mathur?, the pleased earth
shook up, as a burden was lifted.


???????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?

??????????????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

On the holy battlefield of Kuruk?etra in the battle between the Kauravas
and P???avas, hearing the sound of the conch P??cajanya [the conch of Kr???a],
the earth shook up.


??????? ?????????????????? ??? ????

??????? ????????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

When your cosmic form was shown to Arjuna during the battle, when he was
overcome with grief and delusion, the earth shook up.


?????: ??????????????? ??? ????? ????????: ?

??????? ????????? ???:, ?????? ?? ???????? ???????

When the Y?davas, fighting among themselves, were all killed, and when a
hunter struck your foot, the earth shook up.


??????? ??????????? ??????????????: ?

???????????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????

Even though your incarnation was over, you as the bestower of safety to
your devotees never went away from here.  You are always everywhere, O Lord.


?????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ????????: ?

??? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????? ???????? ???????

With you being present everywhere, your coming and going [as an
incarnation] is only a fiction.  Realizing this, with a calm heart, the
earth stopped shaking.


Madhav Deshpande


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From jmmadaio at gmail.com  Sat May 12 15:48:57 2018
From: jmmadaio at gmail.com (James Madaio)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 17:48:57 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers - Journal of Hindu Studies
Message-ID: <CAJZ7h_ynO+Yye1C5wT-_m1a0-Qz=A9n11ggy_c-3Zqd1vY_stg@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies for cross-posting.

The Journal of Hindu Studies invites papers on the theme of mok?a for a
forthcoming issue in early 2019. Papers that address the topic of
liberation are warmly welcomed. The deadline for submission is 15 August
2018.

The Journal of Hindu Studies is a peer-reviewed journal published by Oxford
University Press. It is committed to a critical approach to the broad area
of research surrounding the study of Hindu and related cultures. The
Journal aims to provide a forum for peer-reviewed articles on topics
spanning relevant disciplines, regions, and periods of history.

For Submission Guidelines please see here:
http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/jhs/for_authors/

For Online Submission of Manuscripts please see here:
http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/jhs/for_authors/


--

Dr. James Madaio
Fellow, Oriental Institute (Prague), Czech Academy of Sciences
Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies
Associate Editor, Journal of Hindu Studies


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sat May 12 15:57:15 2018
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 17:57:15 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_publications_(Edition_and_Translation_of_Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_VI.1-119)?=
Message-ID: <20180512175715.Horde.TDPVihPQDK_KQmcfgYosASN@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Dear colleagues,

I am happy to announce the release of the two following books:

* * *

-- Mok?op?ya. Das Sechste Buch. Nirv??aprakara?a. 1.Teil: Kapitel  
1-119. Kritische Edition von Susanne
Krause-Stinner und Peter Stephan. (Anonymus Casmiriensis: Mok?op?ya.  
Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe. Herausgegeben unter der Leitung  
von Walter Slaje. Textedition. Teil 5). [Akademie der Wissenschaften  
und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der  
F?chergruppenkommission f?r Au?ereurop?ische Sprachen und Kulturen.  
Studien zur Indologie]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2018. LIV, 490 pp. 1  
farbige Abbildung. ISBN: 978-3-447-11015-0

https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Anonymus_Casmiriensis_Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_Textedition_Teil_5_Das_Sechste_Buch:_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87aprakara%E1%B9%87a_1._Teil:_Kapitel_1%E2%80%93119/titel_5616.ahtml

Publisher's description::

In der Mitte des 10. Jh.s verfasste ein anonymer Autor in Kaschmir ein  
philosophisches Lehrgedicht zur Selbsterl?sung: Mok?op?ya ("Weg zur  
Befreiung"). Die in Kaschmir ?berlieferte Sanskrit-Fassung dieses in  
der indischen Geistesgeschichte einzigartigen Welterkl?rungsentwurfs  
wird hiermit zum ersten Mal als historisch-kritische Textausgabe ihrer  
sechs B?cher mit etwa 30.000 Strophen zug?nglich gemacht.

Mit Teil V liegt der erste von drei Teilb?nden des umfangreichen  
sechsten Buches "(?ber das) Nirv??a" vor. Er enth?lt die ersten 119  
Kapitel des auf der Grundlage aller verf?gbaren Manuskripte kritisch  
edierten Textes sowie eine Zusammenfassung des Inhalts.

Prinz R?ma, der im gesamten Werk beispielhaft den Weg zur Befreiung  
durchl?uft, gilt nun als "vollst?ndig erwacht", da er die ihm durch  
den Weisen Vasi??ha vermittelte Weltsicht und Erl?sungslehre  
verinnerlicht hat. Entsprechende philosophische Reflexionen werden von  
15 Erz?hlungen begleitet, die komplexe Aspekte mit literarischen  
Mitteln ausdeuten.

Die Geschichte des K?nigs ?ikhidhvaja z.B. nimmt einen  
fortgeschrittenen Standpunkt zu religi?ser Weltflucht, individuell  
abgestimmter Didaktik und pers?nlicher Erfahrung ein. Zugleich stellt  
diese Erz?hlung um eine geistig hochbegabte Herrscherin, die ihren  
Mann mit Hilfe magischer Verwirrspiele erzieht, einen H?hepunkt mit  
f?r die altindische Literatur seltenen Motiven dar. Die Fabel vom  
Raben Bhusu??a fragt nach der M?glichkeit eines langen Lebens in  
weltlicher Aktivit?t, w?hrend ein fiktiver Bericht das philosophische  
Problem intersubjektiver Erfahrung aufgreift, indem er schildert, wie  
ein buddhistischer M?nch in Meditation in immer neue Verk?rperungen  
ger?t. In einer Bhagavadg?t?-Adaption wird die einschl?gige  
Handlungsethik geschickt mit der kognitiven Selbstbefreiung des  
Mok?op?ya verbunden.


* * *


-- Der Weg zur Befreiung. Das Sechste Buch. Das Buch ?ber das Nirv??a.  
1. Teil: Kapitel 1?119. ?bersetzung von Roland Steiner. (Anonymus  
Casmiriensis: Mok?op?ya. Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe.  
Herausgegeben unter der Leitung von Walter Slaje. ?bersetzung. Teil  
5). [Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz.  
Ver?ffentlichungen der F?chergruppenkommission f?r Au?ereurop?ische  
Sprachen und Kulturen. Studien zur Indologie]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz  
2018. XLI, 835 Seiten, 1 farbige Abbildung. ISBN: 978-3-447-11016-7

https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Anonymus_Casmiriensis_Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_%C3%9Cbersetzung_Teil_5_Das_Sechste_Buch:_Das_Buch_%C3%BCber_das_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87a_1._Teil:_Kapitel_1%E2%80%93119/titel_5582.ahtml

Publisher's description::

Der "Weg zur Befreiung" (Mok?op?ya) ist ein im 10. Jahrhundert in  
Kaschmir entstandener Sanskrit-Text, der im Kern auf einen anonymen  
Autor zur?ckgeht, sich in verschiedenen Fassungen ?ber Indien  
verbreitet hat und vor allem in einer sp?ten, vielfach entstellten  
Vulgata-Rezension unter dem Namen "Yogav?si??ha" bekannt geworden ist.  
Inhaltlich handelt es sich um eine philosophische Welterkl?rung, die  
der Weise Vasi??ha dem K?nigssohn R?ma in einem langen Gespr?ch  
darlegt, dessen Hauptaussage lautet, dass nichts, was als Objekt und  
als Subjekt der eigenen Erkenntnis erscheint, tats?chlich existiert,  
sondern alles nichts als "Geist" (cit) st. Ziel dieser didaktisch  
aufgebauten Unterweisung ist die Selbstbefreiung aus dem leidvollen  
Daseinskreislauf, die nicht zu einem R?ckzug aus der Welt f?hren muss,  
sondern dem "schon zu Lebzeiten Befreiten" (j?vanmukta) ein  
intentionslos-t?tiges, leidfreies Leben in der Welt erm?glicht. Dabei  
wechseln philosophische Abschnitte mit kunstvoll erz?hlten  
Geschichten, die bestimmte philosophische Aussagen veranschaulichen  
sollen.

Das 6. Buch ?ber das Nirv??a bildet die zweite H?lfte des Mok?op?ya:  
Der geistig erwachte R?ma ist jetzt dazu imstande, den eigentlichen  
Standpunkt (siddh?nta) des Lehrwerks zu erfassen. Mit dem 1. Teil wird  
eine kommentierte philologische ?bersetzung der aus 5092 Strophen  
bestehenden Kapitel 1?119 dieses 6. Buches nach dem Wortlaut der  
historisch-kritischen Gesamtausgabe vorgelegt. Sie enth?lt 15  
Erz?hlungen, darunter die Geschichte des unsterblichen Raben Bhusu??a,  
den eine philosophisch umgedeutete Atem-Methode (pr???y?ma) zur  
Befreiung gef?hrt hat; eine Darlegung des Gottes ?iva, was unter  
?u?erer und innerer Gottesverehrung aus geistig aufgekl?rter Sicht zu  
verstehen ist; eine geistmonistische Version der Bhagavadg?t?, die aus  
der Erz?hlperspektive des Mok?op?ya in der Zukunft stattfinden wird;  
und nicht zuletzt die lange Geschichte der K?nigin C???l?, die sich  
u.a. in einen Mann verwandelt, um ihrem Gatten zur befreienden  
Erkenntnis zu verhelfen.


* * *

With best regards,
Roland Steiner

Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg
Seminar f?r Indologie
Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9
D-06099 Halle (Saale)
Tel.: +49-345-55-23656
Fax.: +49-345-55-27211
URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/
E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de


-------------- next part --------------
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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sat May 12 16:51:46 2018
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 18:51:46 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_publications_(Edition_and_Translation_of_Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_VI.1-119)_[correction]?=
Message-ID: <20180512185146.Horde.dpeRgRJXCHs4Vv3QlGvlrki@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

[Please ignore my preceding message to the list. The correct version is:]


Dear colleagues,

I am happy to announce the release of the following two books:

* * *

-- Mok?op?ya. Das Sechste Buch. Nirv??aprakara?a. 1.Teil: Kapitel  
1-119. Kritische Edition von Susanne
Krause-Stinner und Peter Stephan. (Anonymus Casmiriensis: Mok?op?ya.  
Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe. Herausgegeben unter der Leitung  
von Walter Slaje. Textedition. Teil 5). [Akademie der Wissenschaften  
und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der  
F?chergruppenkommission f?r Au?ereurop?ische Sprachen und Kulturen.  
Studien zur Indologie]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2018. LIV, 490 pp. 1  
farbige Abbildung. ISBN: 978-3-447-11015-0

https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Anonymus_Casmiriensis_Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_Textedition_Teil_5_Das_Sechste_Buch:_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87aprakara%E1%B9%87a_1._Teil:_Kapitel_1%E2%80%93119/titel_5616.ahtml

Publisher's description::

In der Mitte des 10. Jh.s verfasste ein anonymer Autor in Kaschmir ein  
philosophisches Lehrgedicht zur Selbsterl?sung: Mok?op?ya ("Weg zur  
Befreiung"). Die in Kaschmir ?berlieferte Sanskrit-Fassung dieses in  
der indischen Geistesgeschichte einzigartigen Welterkl?rungsentwurfs  
wird hiermit zum ersten Mal als historisch-kritische Textausgabe ihrer  
sechs B?cher mit etwa 30.000 Strophen zug?nglich gemacht.

Mit Teil V liegt der erste von drei Teilb?nden des umfangreichen  
sechsten Buches "(?ber das) Nirv??a" vor. Er enth?lt die ersten 119  
Kapitel des auf der Grundlage aller verf?gbaren Manuskripte kritisch  
edierten Textes sowie eine Zusammenfassung des Inhalts.

Prinz R?ma, der im gesamten Werk beispielhaft den Weg zur Befreiung  
durchl?uft, gilt nun als "vollst?ndig erwacht", da er die ihm durch  
den Weisen Vasi??ha vermittelte Weltsicht und Erl?sungslehre  
verinnerlicht hat. Entsprechende philosophische Reflexionen werden von  
15 Erz?hlungen begleitet, die komplexe Aspekte mit literarischen  
Mitteln ausdeuten.

Die Geschichte des K?nigs ?ikhidhvaja z.B. nimmt einen  
fortgeschrittenen Standpunkt zu religi?ser Weltflucht, individuell  
abgestimmter Didaktik und pers?nlicher Erfahrung ein. Zugleich stellt  
diese Erz?hlung um eine geistig hochbegabte Herrscherin, die ihren  
Mann mit Hilfe magischer Verwirrspiele erzieht, einen H?hepunkt mit  
f?r die altindische Literatur seltenen Motiven dar. Die Fabel vom  
Raben Bhusu??a fragt nach der M?glichkeit eines langen Lebens in  
weltlicher Aktivit?t, w?hrend ein fiktiver Bericht das philosophische  
Problem intersubjektiver Erfahrung aufgreift, indem er schildert, wie  
ein buddhistischer M?nch in Meditation in immer neue Verk?rperungen  
ger?t. In einer Bhagavadg?t?-Adaption wird die einschl?gige  
Handlungsethik geschickt mit der kognitiven Selbstbefreiung des  
Mok?op?ya verbunden.


* * *


-- Der Weg zur Befreiung. Das Sechste Buch. Das Buch ?ber das Nirv??a.  
1. Teil: Kapitel 1?119. ?bersetzung von Roland Steiner. (Anonymus  
Casmiriensis: Mok?op?ya. Historisch-kritische Gesamtausgabe.  
Herausgegeben unter der Leitung von Walter Slaje. ?bersetzung. Teil  
5). [Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz.  
Ver?ffentlichungen der F?chergruppenkommission f?r Au?ereurop?ische  
Sprachen und Kulturen. Studien zur Indologie]. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz  
2018. XLI, 835 Seiten, 1 farbige Abbildung. ISBN: 978-3-447-11016-7

https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Anonymus_Casmiriensis_Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_%C3%9Cbersetzung_Teil_5_Das_Sechste_Buch:_Das_Buch_%C3%BCber_das_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87a_1._Teil:_Kapitel_1%E2%80%93119/titel_5582.ahtml

Publisher's description::

Der "Weg zur Befreiung" (Mok?op?ya) ist ein im 10. Jahrhundert in  
Kaschmir entstandener Sanskrit-Text, der im Kern auf einen anonymen  
Autor zur?ckgeht, sich in verschiedenen Fassungen ?ber Indien  
verbreitet hat und vor allem in einer sp?ten, vielfach entstellten  
Vulgata-Rezension unter dem Namen "Yogav?si??ha" bekannt geworden ist.  
Inhaltlich handelt es sich um eine philosophische Welterkl?rung, die  
der Weise Vasi??ha dem K?nigssohn R?ma in einem langen Gespr?ch  
darlegt, dessen Hauptaussage lautet, dass nichts, was als Objekt und  
als Subjekt der eigenen Erkenntnis erscheint, tats?chlich existiert,  
sondern alles nichts als "Geist" (cit) st. Ziel dieser didaktisch  
aufgebauten Unterweisung ist die Selbstbefreiung aus dem leidvollen  
Daseinskreislauf, die nicht zu einem R?ckzug aus der Welt f?hren muss,  
sondern dem "schon zu Lebzeiten Befreiten" (j?vanmukta) ein  
intentionslos-t?tiges, leidfreies Leben in der Welt erm?glicht. Dabei  
wechseln philosophische Abschnitte mit kunstvoll erz?hlten  
Geschichten, die bestimmte philosophische Aussagen veranschaulichen  
sollen.

Das 6. Buch ?ber das Nirv??a bildet die zweite H?lfte des Mok?op?ya:  
Der geistig erwachte R?ma ist jetzt dazu imstande, den eigentlichen  
Standpunkt (siddh?nta) des Lehrwerks zu erfassen. Mit dem 1. Teil wird  
eine kommentierte philologische ?bersetzung der aus 5092 Strophen  
bestehenden Kapitel 1?119 dieses 6. Buches nach dem Wortlaut der  
historisch-kritischen Gesamtausgabe vorgelegt. Sie enth?lt 15  
Erz?hlungen, darunter die Geschichte des unsterblichen Raben Bhusu??a,  
den eine philosophisch umgedeutete Atem-Methode (pr???y?ma) zur  
Befreiung gef?hrt hat; eine Darlegung des Gottes ?iva, was unter  
?u?erer und innerer Gottesverehrung aus geistig aufgekl?rter Sicht zu  
verstehen ist; eine geistmonistische Version der Bhagavadg?t?, die aus  
der Erz?hlperspektive des Mok?op?ya in der Zukunft stattfinden wird;  
und nicht zuletzt die lange Geschichte der K?nigin C???l?, die sich  
u.a. in einen Mann verwandelt, um ihrem Gatten zur befreienden  
Erkenntnis zu verhelfen.


* * *

With best regards,
Roland Steiner

Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg
Seminar f?r Indologie
Emil-Abderhalden-Str. 9
D-06099 Halle (Saale)
Tel.: +49-345-55-23656
Fax.: +49-345-55-27211
URL: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/
E-Mail: roland.steiner at indologie.uni-halle.de






From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sat May 12 20:13:52 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 16:13:52 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Meters measured by morae
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFbRzaCJFJegLdZ__TmVcHQYY945pXDgD+-6W9TomzB_A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

Can someone tell me if there is a sanskrit technical term for meters
measured by morae.  I don't mean the names of the individual meters such as
AryA etc.  But the sanskrit name for this type of meter (meters measured by
morae).

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Sat May 12 20:29:26 2018
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 10:29:26 -1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Meters measured by morae
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFbRzaCJFJegLdZ__TmVcHQYY945pXDgD+-6W9TomzB_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEUhb1THYxYVoFfO0qvaGUzxaLv2JXe1HR9JNFresadirw@mail.gmail.com>

j?ti

On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 10:13 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> Can someone tell me if there is a sanskrit technical term for meters
> measured by morae.  I don't mean the names of the individual meters such as
> AryA etc.  But the sanskrit name for this type of meter (meters measured by
> morae).
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature
Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
461 Spalding


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From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com  Sat May 12 23:28:58 2018
From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 16:28:58 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Meters measured by morae
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFbRzaCJFJegLdZ__TmVcHQYY945pXDgD+-6W9TomzB_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B873CF52-798A-4F2F-B2E5-A1EE43D5AD74@gmail.com>

In appendix A of V.S. Apte?s dictionary, you will find the term m?tr?-v?tta (in contradistinction to the term var?a-v?tta = ak?ara-ga?a-v?tta) for what you have in mind. 

a.a.

> On May 12, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Can someone tell me if there is a sanskrit technical term for meters measured by morae.  I don't mean the names of the individual meters such as AryA etc.  But the sanskrit name for this type of meter (meters measured by morae).





From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sat May 12 23:47:03 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 12 May 18 19:47:03 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Meters measured by morae
In-Reply-To: <B873CF52-798A-4F2F-B2E5-A1EE43D5AD74@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFG-3s=rObC9tT1OoFzndKmUiJVEdk=71mSvDLg3CBb7w@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you to Jesse Knutson, Madhav Deshpande and Ashok Aklujkar for their
answers.

Harry Spier

On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 7:28 PM, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com>
wrote:

> In appendix A of V.S. Apte?s dictionary, you will find the term
> m?tr?-v?tta (in contradistinction to the term var?a-v?tta =
> ak?ara-ga?a-v?tta) for what you have in mind.
>
> a.a.
>
> > On May 12, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> > Can someone tell me if there is a sanskrit technical term for meters
> measured by morae.  I don't mean the names of the individual meters such as
> AryA etc.  But the sanskrit name for this type of meter (meters measured by
> morae).
>


-------------- next part --------------
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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Mon May 14 05:07:58 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 01:07:58 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with translation
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFwapEcTWbPFgZj8SaA7KSDcotioUq_+hk-ytHzi5JHSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

The fourth verse of the vi?van?th???akam is:

?ita??u-?obhita-kir??a-vir?ja-m?nam

bhalek?a??nala-vi?o?ita-pa?ca-b?nam

n?g?dhip?-racita-bh?sura-kar?a-p?ram

v?r??as?-pura-pati? bhaja vi?van?tham

bhaja vi?van?tham


I've seen bhalek?a?a translated as "the eye on the forehead".

But Monier-Williams has bh?la not bhala as forehead.  And  M-W also
cross-references bhala to bhalla .

Can bhala be an alternate spelling for bhalla .  M-W has meanings for
bhalla of "a kind of arrow or missile with a point of a particular  shape"
and also "a particular part of an arrow".

In other words can bhalek?a?a mean "eye shaped like an arrowhead" so the
phrase bhalek?a??nala-vi?o?ita-pa?ca-b?nam  would mean something like "the
fire from His eye shaped like an arrowhead dessicated the bearer of the
five arrows [K?ma]".

Thanks,
Harry


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Mon May 14 05:38:53 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 01:38:53 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with translation
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFwapEcTWbPFgZj8SaA7KSDcotioUq_+hk-ytHzi5JHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFtH5XNxqS8SHSpR8AtHKthNL2tpWojy8W_qhqzi4ABEg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Please ignore this post I just sent.

As Madhav Deshpande just pointed out to me the version of the hymn I had
has a typo:
Its bh?lek?a??nala-vi?o?ita-pa?ca-b?nam not bhalek?a??nala-vi?o?ita-pa?ca-b?nam
so the question I asked makes no sense.

Thank you,
Harry Spier

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 1:07 AM, Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> The fourth verse of the vi?van?th???akam is:
>
> ?ita??u-?obhita-kir??a-vir?ja-m?nam
>
> bhalek?a??nala-vi?o?ita-pa?ca-b?nam
>
> n?g?dhip?-racita-bh?sura-kar?a-p?ram
>
> v?r??as?-pura-pati? bhaja vi?van?tham
>
> bhaja vi?van?tham
>
>
> I've seen bhalek?a?a translated as "the eye on the forehead".
>
> But Monier-Williams has bh?la not bhala as forehead.  And  M-W also
> cross-references bhala to bhalla .
>
> Can bhala be an alternate spelling for bhalla .  M-W has meanings for
> bhalla of "a kind of arrow or missile with a point of a particular
> shape"  and also "a particular part of an arrow".
>
> In other words can bhalek?a?a mean "eye shaped like an arrowhead" so the
> phrase bhalek?a??nala-vi?o?ita-pa?ca-b?nam  would mean something like
> "the fire from His eye shaped like an arrowhead dessicated the bearer of
> the five arrows [K?ma]".
>
> Thanks,
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Mon May 14 14:03:00 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 14:03:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <4BEE3F21-FAFC-4CA7-911E-28C6A2E3F8B0@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B1323A@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Rajam,
As to your question about the possibility to identify layers in the Tolk?ppiyam, did you have a look at Eva Wilden's article "On the Condensation and Extension of Knowledge: The S?tra Style in the Tolk?ppiyam Porul?atik?ram", which has appeared in Francois Gros's Felicitation Volume (2004), pp, 177-206? On pages 185-6 the author presents a "[t]entative chronological model in 4 layers for the development of the Tolk?ppiya? Porul?atik?ram Akatti?ai-iyal".
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens George Hart via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: zaterdag 12 mei 2018 3:31
Aan: Indology List
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam

Dear Rajam,

As you know, I am not an expert on the Tolk?ppiyam. With that proviso, let me respond to your post.

1. Regarding the derivation of Tolk?ppiyam, I had the same problem you did. To translate ?Tolk?ppiyam? as ?Old K?vya? does not make sense, since the work is not a k?vya.

(My comments on to 2 and 3 do not apply to the Poru?atik?ram, which is not a grammatical work in the common sense of the term).

2. As far as ?layers? are concerned, my point was that after the Tolk?ppiyam was written down, it might have come into the keeping of a group of (Jain?) scholars, monks, or others who wished to keep it current and added to it or emended it. It is possible, though obviously it?s just speculation, that the section on the pu??i was added when the ?dot? (pu??i) started to be incorporated into the writing system. It is equally possible that the work itself postdates the appearance of the pu??i and that it is not layered at all but is actually the product of one person (or conceivably a group of people) who lived at a certain period.

3.  It seems to me likely that if the text was added to and/or emended, those who did so would have been careful to keep the name of the original author in order to maintain the legitimacy of the text.

I wonder whether there is any way additions or emendations, if they exist, could be identified. Is there a change in the use of language or any other aspect of the text/content that could be identified as not fitting with some of the other parts of the work? I think this is unlikely, as the emenders (if they existed) would have been careful to add/change things so they appeared to fit with the older text.

I think a better case can be made that the Poru?atik?ram is layered, or at least that it has disparate elements. It is my impression that the grammatical parts of the Tolk?ppiyam (Collatik?ram, E?uttatik?ram) are more coherent.

George


On May 11, 2018, at 4:39 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear List Members,

[Disclaimer: I?m not a social historian, nor an interpretive socio-anthro person, nor an etymologist. I?m just a morphologist/grammarian. ;-) I?m not an expert in ?dating? any ancient texts. In fact, I won?t worry if someone declares that the Tolkappiyam was written/verbally transmitted in the remotely unknown BCE times or in the late CE times. What matters to me is the content of the Tolkappiyam, which is quite sophisticated in my opinion.]

Anyway, I have some questions which occurred when I read through this discussion thread.

Questions:

1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?

2. This question is for George. George, could you please explain the ?layer?ed aspect of the Tolkappiyam? Exactly which parts of the Tolkappiyam are layered and how?

I?ve heard about this ?layer?ed business of the Tolkappiyam in the Tamil circles where some people are like parrots just repeating what the West has said. But, so far, to my knowledge, no one seems to have explained precisely what parts of the Tolkappiyam belong to which layer, and so on.

3. This question is for everybody ascribing to the ?layer?ed nature of the Tolkappiyam. So ? if it took several centuries to compose the Tolkappiyam, how many authors were involved? Why only one author is known now and what happened to the rest?

I would appreciate precise answers to my questions.

Thanks and regards,
rajam


On May 7, 2018, at 8:26 AM, George Hart via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

It was my impression that, like many older Indian works (cf. the Vy?sa Mah?bh?rata, the Rig Veda, probably the N??ya??stra), the Tolk?ppiyam is a collection of things that may have been composed at different dates. Some parts may be quite early, some later, but I would be pretty surprised if anything in the work is as late as the 9th century. My opinion is that parts of the work may go back to (or mirror/be influenced by) things as early as the 1st century BCE (and conceivably even earlier) while other parts may be as late as the 3rd or even 4th century CE. Burnell's work relating the Tolk?ppiyam to the Sanskrit Aindra (On the Aindra School of Sanskrit Grammarians: Their Place in the Sanskrit, available on Google) is important. One might note that P??ini describes things that are earlier than the Sanskrit used when he composed his work ? I am not a vaiy?kara?ika, but I am sure people on this list can speak to this. The writers of grammars, whether in Sanskrit or Tamil, do not appear out of thin air. George

On May 7, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Paniappan,
As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated.
Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is prescriptive for the first time.
In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this issue.
Best regards,
Jan Houben


On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:

"From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.

"It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..."

In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.
The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.
ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?

Thanks

Regards,
Palaniappan


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--
Jan E.M. Houben
Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
Sciences historiques et philologiques
54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr<mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon May 14 18:04:47 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 11:04:47 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfsYsC=wgtC6fA8BqZxHaigBMxpdNvQRdd2ia_Kqp6vdA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

????? ????? ????? ????? ???????: ?

????? ????????? ????? ???????: ???????

O Kr???a, sweet is your flute, and sweet is the sound of your flute.  On
the sweet bank of Yamun? stands the sweet Holder of Flute.


????? ????????? ????? ???????????? ?

?????: ?????????????????? ?????????: ???????

Sweet is the water of Yamun?, and sweet the courtyard of Gokula.  Sweet is
the Delight of Nanda along with his sweet friends.


????? ????? ???? ???????? ????: ???? ?

? ????????????? ??????? ?? ????  ???????

Sweet is mother Ya?od? and sweet is your father Nanda.  O M?dhava, your
sweetness is well known since your childhood.


???????? ?????????? ??? ???????? ?? ?????: ?

?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???: ???: ???????

No sweet thief other than you is ever seen or heard of.  Even the robbed
beg you again and again ?Rob us.?


??????????? ??????????? ????????? ????????: ?

?? ??????? ?????????????????? ??????? ???: ???: ???????

You stole the clothes of the bathing milkmaids, and yet, saying ?Don?t go,?
they beg you again and again.


?????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ?

??????? ????????? ???? ? ?????????? ???????

Your danced sweetly, O Kr???a, in the sweet water of Yamun?.  You removed
the poison of the snake K?liya and sweetened the water.


????????????????????? ?????? ????? ??? ?

???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ??? ???????

Roaming with sweet milkmaids in the sweet woods, you appear to me like a
honey-bee collecting honey in spring.


?????????????? ???? ?????? ?? ????????? ?

?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????????? ???????

Your play, sprinkling nectar, goes on in Gokula.  Soaked in your sweetness,
Gokula became so sweet.


???????? ??: ???? ????????? ???????????? ?

?????? ????? ???????????? ?????? ???? ???????

In Mathur?, you killed your evil-doer uncle Kamsa, and freed your parents
from the prison and made them happy.


?? ????????????? ???????? ???? ?? ??: ?

???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????

With the shower of your sweetness, please remove the poisons from my mind.  Go
on roaming, O Honey-Bee, in the sweet wild of my mind.


???????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?

??? ?? ?????????? ??????????? ???: ???????

If I were to see you always roaming in my mind, then my mind becomes
Gokula, and I need to go nowhere else.


????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?

?????? ?? ??????????? ??? ???????????? ???????

May I always stay where M?dhava always happily roams around.  What is the
point of coming and going.


????? ?? ????? ???: ???????????? ???????? ?

?????? ?????????????? ????????????????: ???????

O Kr???a, your sweet words on the battlefield of Kuruk?etra completely
removed the darkness from Arjuna?s heart.

???????? ???? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ?

???????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????

The words that you spoke to Arjuna to purify his mind were all reported by
Sa?jaya to purify the world.


????????????? ?????? ???? ???? ???: ???? ?

??????? ??????? ????????? ???? ????? ???????

You, O Lord, the compassionate father of the world, by using Arjuna as an
occasion you taught to the whole world the path of righteousness.


????? ????? ? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ?

????????????????????????: ???????? ??????? ???????

O Lord, even though you are the maker and the sustainer of the world, there
is no sweet speaking teacher other than you.


Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From rajam at earthlink.net  Tue May 15 00:36:57 2018
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 17:36:57 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B1323A@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <37C8BF17-6520-4BAC-9A99-669C080D381F@earthlink.net>

Dear Professor Tieken,

Thank you for the information. I haven?t seen Eva Wilden?s article. I would appreciate it if someone can send me a PDF copy of the article. 

Thanks,
rajam


> On May 14, 2018, at 7:03 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Rajam,
> As to your question about the possibility to identify layers in the Tolk?ppiyam, did you have a look at Eva Wilden's article "On the Condensation and Extension of Knowledge: The S?tra Style in the Tolk?ppiyam Porul?atik?ram", which has appeared in Francois Gros's Felicitation Volume (2004), pp, 177-206? On pages 185-6 the author presents a "[t]entative chronological model in 4 layers for the development of the Tolk?ppiya? Porul?atik?ram Akatti?ai-iyal".
> Herman
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens George Hart via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>]
> Verzonden: zaterdag 12 mei 2018 3:31
> Aan: Indology List
> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Date of the Tolkappiyam
> 
> Dear Rajam,
> 
> As you know, I am not an expert on the Tolk?ppiyam. With that proviso, let me respond to your post. 
> 
> 1. Regarding the derivation of Tolk?ppiyam, I had the same problem you did. To translate ?Tolk?ppiyam? as ?Old K?vya? does not make sense, since the work is not a k?vya.
> 
> (My comments on to 2 and 3 do not apply to the Poru?atik?ram, which is not a grammatical work in the common sense of the term).
> 
> 2. As far as ?layers? are concerned, my point was that after the Tolk?ppiyam was written down, it might have come into the keeping of a group of (Jain?) scholars, monks, or others who wished to keep it current and added to it or emended it. It is possible, though obviously it?s just speculation, that the section on the pu??i was added when the ?dot? (pu??i) started to be incorporated into the writing system. It is equally possible that the work itself postdates the appearance of the pu??i and that it is not layered at all but is actually the product of one person (or conceivably a group of people) who lived at a certain period. 
> 
> 3.  It seems to me likely that if the text was added to and/or emended, those who did so would have been careful to keep the name of the original author in order to maintain the legitimacy of the text.
> 
> I wonder whether there is any way additions or emendations, if they exist, could be identified. Is there a change in the use of language or any other aspect of the text/content that could be identified as not fitting with some of the other parts of the work? I think this is unlikely, as the emenders (if they existed) would have been careful to add/change things so they appeared to fit with the older text. 
> 
> I think a better case can be made that the Poru?atik?ram is layered, or at least that it has disparate elements. It is my impression that the grammatical parts of the Tolk?ppiyam (Collatik?ram, E?uttatik?ram) are more coherent.
> 
> George
> 
> 
>> On May 11, 2018, at 4:39 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear List Members,
>> 
>> [Disclaimer: I?m not a social historian, nor an interpretive socio-anthro person, nor an etymologist. I?m just a morphologist/grammarian. ;-) I?m not an expert in ?dating? any ancient texts. In fact, I won?t worry if someone declares that the Tolkappiyam was written/verbally transmitted in the remotely unknown BCE times or in the late CE times. What matters to me is the content of the Tolkappiyam, which is quite sophisticated in my opinion.]
>> 
>> Anyway, I have some questions which occurred when I read through this discussion thread.
>> 
>> Questions:
>> 
>> 1. Doesn?t the word k?vya refer to something related to literature? If that would be the case, how can the Tolkappiyam, which is a grammar, can be connected with that?
>> 
>> 2. This question is for George. George, could you please explain the ?layer?ed aspect of the Tolkappiyam? Exactly which parts of the Tolkappiyam are layered and how? 
>> 
>> I?ve heard about this ?layer?ed business of the Tolkappiyam in the Tamil circles where some people are like parrots just repeating what the West has said. But, so far, to my knowledge, no one seems to have explained precisely what parts of the Tolkappiyam belong to which layer, and so on. 
>> 
>> 3. This question is for everybody ascribing to the ?layer?ed nature of the Tolkappiyam. So ? if it took several centuries to compose the Tolkappiyam, how many authors were involved? Why only one author is known now and what happened to the rest?
>> 
>> I would appreciate precise answers to my questions.
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> rajam
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 7, 2018, at 8:26 AM, George Hart via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It was my impression that, like many older Indian works (cf. the Vy?sa Mah?bh?rata, the Rig Veda, probably the N??ya??stra), the Tolk?ppiyam is a collection of things that may have been composed at different dates. Some parts may be quite early, some later, but I would be pretty surprised if anything in the work is as late as the 9th century. My opinion is that parts of the work may go back to (or mirror/be influenced by) things as early as the 1st century BCE (and conceivably even earlier) while other parts may be as late as the 3rd or even 4th century CE. Burnell's work relating the Tolk?ppiyam to the Sanskrit Aindra (On the Aindra School of Sanskrit Grammarians: Their Place in the Sanskrit, available on Google) is important. One might note that P??ini describes things that are earlier than the Sanskrit used when he composed his work ? I am not a vaiy?kara?ika, but I am sure people on this list can speak to this. The writers of grammars, whether in Sanskrit or Tamil, do not appear out of thin air. George
>>> 
>>>> On May 7, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Paniappan, 
>>>> As an old student of Prof. Kamil Zvelebil and of his student Dr Saskia Kersenboom I am not convinced that his translation is wrong or outdated. 
>>>> Moreover, even with his translation you can argue that the imperative is prescriptive for the first time. 
>>>> In other words, his translation is here only cited as a "strawman" with the WISH to attribute a more ancient date to the Tolk?ppiyam.
>>>> Since, however, the most generally accepted etymogy of  Tolk?ppiyam is "old K?vya" and since K?vya has a convincing etymology from the Vedic-Old Persian kav? this grammar was apparently composed or at least "named" after Sanskrit K?vya developed as a literary phenomenon. Which would match the datings proposed by Prof. Tieken in his recently reprinted study on this issue. 
>>>> Best regards, 
>>>> Jan Houben
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 7 May 2018 at 00:52, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>> Responding to a query on the date of the Tolk?ppiyam, I obtained some pages in the 2nd edition of Early Tamil Epigraphy (ETE) by Iravatham Mahadevan published in 2014. In his first edition Mahadevan had said on p. 231, ?It is thus clear that this grammatical work must have been composed after the pu??i was invented and had become an integral part of Tamil writing. Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrence of the pu??i from about the end of the 1st century A.D., Tolk?ppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Br?hm? Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)? Unfortunately, Mahadevan had not consulted a crucial article by Rajam Ramamurti of 1982 entitled, "The Relevance of the Term Mey, O??u, and Pu??i To the System of Tamil Morpho-phonemics" in International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 11 , no. 1, pp. 167-183. In this article, it is stated:
>>>>  
>>>> "From what Rule 106 says, we understand that there existed a convention, either earlier or contemporary, of marking an extra short u with a dot. The tone of Rules 15 and 105 in the Tolk?ppiyam suggests that the author of the text made his own rule of marking a vowelless consonant with a dot.
>>>>  
>>>> "It is possible that there existed in the pre-Tolk?ppiyam period, the convention of marking an extra short u with a dot and the author of Tolk?ppiyam extended the convention to the class of vowelless consonants..." 
>>>> 
>>>> In other words, it was Tolk?ppiyar, the author of the Tolk?ppiyam, who invented the convention of marking a pure consonant with a dot. This means that the Tolk?ppiyam must precede any epigraphic occurrence of the dot (pu??i) and not after as Mahadevan has stated.  
>>>> The crux of the problem seems to be the interpretation of the rule Tolk?ppiyam 15. Mahadevan has used Kamil Zvelebil?s outdated 1972 translation, ?The nature of the consonant is to be provided with a dot.? Ramamurti (1982:180)?s more precise translation using the imperative/optative interpretation is, "Let/May it be the nature of mey (consonant) to stay with a pu??i (dot).? If the use of dots to indicate pure consonants was already present, he would not have used the imperative/optative construction in the rule.
>>>> 
>>>> ETE's 2nd edition?s bibliography includes the afore-mentioned article, Ramamurti (1982). (Both editions? bibliographies also include V. S. Rajam?s  A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, wherein the imperative/optative use of verbal noun is discussed on p. 820.)  But in the discussion on pu??i in ETE's 2nd edition, Mahadevan does not discuss Ramamurti (1982) but essentially presents the same date for Tolk?ppiyam as in the first edition. See attachment. Mahadevan has not discussed why he still maintained his earlier conclusion.  Has there been any discussion of this issue by anybody else?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Palaniappan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Jan E.M. Houben
>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>>>> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
>>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
>>>> johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <mailto:johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>
>>>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>
>>>> <Outlook-1506959459.jpg>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
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From rajam at earthlink.net  Tue May 15 01:19:22 2018
From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 18:19:22 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gW01pblRhbWlsXSDgrqTgr4rgrrLgr43grpXgrr7grqrgr43grqrgrr/grq/grq7gr40g4K6q4K6x4K+N4K6x4K6/4K6a4K+NIOCumuCuv+CusiDgrpXgr4fgrrPgr43grrXgrr/grpXgrrPgr40gLi4uIOCuh+CusOCuo+CvjeCun+CuvuCuruCvjSDgrqrgrpXgr4HgrqTgrr8gLi4u?=
In-Reply-To: <8046123c-7201-4ea1-88d1-461857cd954d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4BCF1EE1-BC53-410E-B15C-D1459DD1A6BA@earthlink.net>

??????? ???? nkantan.

?????? ?????? ??????????? ???????????. ???????? ???????????????? ??????? ??????????? ???????? ??????????.

???????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????. 

///??????????????????? ???????? ????///

???? ?????? ???????????? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????????.

?????????? ??? ??????????????? ;-) . ?????????????, ????????????, ???????? ????????? ?????? 33 ("???????? ????????? ??????? ????????") ???????????. 

??????????????' ?????? ?????????? ????????? ??????????: ???????????????? ????????????? ?????????????.'


> On May 13, 2018, at 11:26 AM, nkantan r <rnkantan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ???? ???? ??????? ???????? ??? ???????????????????.
> 
> ???? ??????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????????????. ????????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????????? ?????????.
> 
> ???? ??? ???????????... ???? ?????? ??????. ??? ????????????? ???????. , ??? ???????? ????????????..  ???????? ?????????..
> 
> ???.. ???????????? ???????.
> 
> ??????????????????? ???????? ????  ?????????? ???????? /????????? ????????????? ?????????.. ??? ????????????..
> 
> .....???????? ???????
> ????????????? ???? ???????? ??????..'
> 
> ??? ?????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????.  ?????????..
> 
> '...?????? ?????? ??????????? ??????..' 
> 
> ??????, ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??????. ???????? ?? ????, ???? ????????? ??????????? ????????? ????????????????. ??????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????????????? ???????? ????????? ???????????????. 
> 
> ??, ???? ?????? ???? (???????????) ????, ?? ???? ?????????? ??????, ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????. ????????????? (?????????????, ????????? ??????. ??????????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????..) ???? ??????? ????? ?????????? ??????????..?
> 
> 
> ?????? +???? ?????? ????????? ???????,  ???? ???????????????????????  ????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ???????????? ????? ???????? ??????? ?????... ??????????.. 
> 
> rnk
> 
> (?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????  ???? '???????????' ????? ???? ?????, ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????  ?????? ??????? ??????????? ???????? 
> 
> ????????????? ?????????????? ??????????? ?????? ???????? ?????????. '??????????????' ????? ???????? ????? ??????????? ???????? ?????????.. ?? ???? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ???? ???????? ?????????? ????? ????????? 
> ???????????????)
> 
> -- 
> "Tamil in Digital Media" group is an activity of Tamil Heritage Foundation. Visit our website: http://www.tamilheritage.org; you may like to visit our Muthusom Blogs at: http://www.tamilheritage.org/how2contribute.html To post to this group, send email to minTamil at googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to minTamil-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Tue May 15 04:02:07 2018
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 04:02:07 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
Message-ID: <SY2PR01MB2667AF3A63D4E4CF79E1BF3FAE930@SY2PR01MB2667.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Dear colleagues


A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'


Can any of you learned folk help us out?


Thanks in advance


McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


[1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]

Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May 15 04:43:41 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 21:43:41 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <SY2PR01MB2667AF3A63D4E4CF79E1BF3FAE930@SY2PR01MB2667.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdKTzCXUo8MWT3A+WU2-CHPG88SDqVbPv3esHdAWDYFpw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear McComas,

     This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues
>
>
> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>
>
> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> McComas
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>
> Ask me about my new project:
>
> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Tue May 15 05:01:38 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 00:01:38 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdKTzCXUo8MWT3A+WU2-CHPG88SDqVbPv3esHdAWDYFpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO14ME1FX2S4qwW6kXwHmgNKSWJ6M3A2GsnwR6wfOHJw2zg@mail.gmail.com>

Some of the Prakrit manuscripts I've seen---most relatively recent, but
nevertheless pre-print---separate words in the Prakrit text with a dot or
with small da??a-like marks above the line (the latter may have been added
subsequently). Words aren't separated in the accompanying Sanskrit
commentaries to these texts.

There are spaces between (some) words in most versions of Asoka's pillar
edicts, but I'm not sure how frequent interword spacing is in later
inscriptions, if it happens at all.

2018-05-14 23:43 GMT-05:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Dear McComas,
>
>      This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
> exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
> form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
> materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
> early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
> writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
> were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
> do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
> the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Campbell, California
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues
>>
>>
>> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
>> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>>
>>
>> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>> McComas
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>
>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>
>>
>> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>>
>> Ask me about my new project:
>>
>> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From hermantull at gmail.com  Tue May 15 05:33:53 2018
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Mon, 14 May 18 22:33:53 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO14ME1FX2S4qwW6kXwHmgNKSWJ6M3A2GsnwR6wfOHJw2zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNimBTS0QpcyxGvCccWiPYBjG6DjgaQdVs6gfjztLdSLxw@mail.gmail.com>

H. H. Wilson, in his introduction to Stevenson's Sanhita of the Sama Veda
(1842) observes: "The Manuscript sent home by Mr. Stevenson is written in
the usual method of Sanskrit Manuscripts ; and has the words arranged
continuously, without any separation. The difliculties of the language of
the Vedas do not need to be aggravated by the perplexity which this style
of writing involves, especially when the words are obsolete or unusual, and
their dissection is unaided by previous familiarity with them in their
unconnected state. This has been felt by native Sanskrit scholars ; and
hence have arisen the Padas, or copies of the Sanhit?s of the different
Vedas, in which the connection of concurrent words is broken down, and each
word is placed within lines or brackets in its crude or uncompounded and
unattached form. Half the difficulty of the Text is at once removed by this
expedient ;  and I have thought that a similar assistance would not be
unthankfully received by the European Scholar. I have therefore followed
the Pada so far as to separate the words upon the principle that seems to
be least objectionable?that of dividing them from the words or passages
which follow, when it can be done without any offensive violation of the
laws of Sandhi or euphonic combination. It is needless to observe, that
this is very often quite practicable, and that it is always convenient to
the reader. The adoption of this modification has occasioned me very
considerable trouble; but if it has furnished that facility to the
understanding of the Text which may be expected to result from it, I shall
not regret my labour."

This is somewhat different, but not entirely contradicted by Monier
Williams's remarks in his "A Practical Grammar" (and more or less repeated
verbatim later by Whitney):

OF THE INDIAN METHOD OF WRITING.
26. According to Hindu grammarians every syllable ought to end in a vowel,
and every final consonant ought to be attracted to the beginning of the
next syllable; that where a word ends in a consonant, that consonant ought
to be pronounced with the initial letter of the next word. Hence in some
Sanskrit MSS. all the syllables are separated by slight spaces, and in
others all the words are joined together without any separation. Thus the
two words asid raja would in some books be written and in others In
Sanskrit works printed in Europe, the common practice is to separate only
those words the final or initial letter of which are not acted on by the
rules of combination. In such books asid raja would be written together,
because the final is the result of an euphonic change from caused by the
following r. There seems, however, but little reason for considering the
mere spaces left between the words of a sentence to be incompatible with
the operation of euphonic laws ; especially as the absence of such spaces
must always cause more or less impediment even to the fluent reader.
Therefore in many books recently printed in Europe, every uncompounded word
capable of separation by the use of the Vir?ma is separated. ... (Practical
Grammar, p. 16, 1857)



On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 10:01 PM, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Some of the Prakrit manuscripts I've seen---most relatively recent, but
> nevertheless pre-print---separate words in the Prakrit text with a dot or
> with small da??a-like marks above the line (the latter may have been added
> subsequently). Words aren't separated in the accompanying Sanskrit
> commentaries to these texts.
>
> There are spaces between (some) words in most versions of Asoka's pillar
> edicts, but I'm not sure how frequent interword spacing is in later
> inscriptions, if it happens at all.
>
> 2018-05-14 23:43 GMT-05:00 Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> Dear McComas,
>>
>>      This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
>> exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
>> form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
>> materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
>> early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
>> writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
>> were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
>> do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
>> the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.
>>
>> Madhav Deshpande
>> Campbell, California
>>
>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear colleagues
>>>
>>>
>>> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
>>> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>>>
>>>
>>> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>>
>>> McComas
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>>
>>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>>>
>>> Ask me about my new project:
>>>
>>> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue May 15 06:15:15 2018
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 06:15:15 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdKTzCXUo8MWT3A+WU2-CHPG88SDqVbPv3esHdAWDYFpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B132AF@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>

A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line. However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger than the others (influence from Dutch?).
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
Aan: McComas Taylor
CC: indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

Dear McComas,

     This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues


A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'


Can any of you learned folk help us out?


Thanks in advance


McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


[1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]

Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue May 15 08:27:50 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 10:27:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <EA8F815D502BC14097213C5D85BA1C6549B132AF@SPMXM07.VUW.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4JGSFRSGNV+wpQ+U_m4avBNzb9QfJO+NK4uTXr0WD6xWg@mail.gmail.com>

Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in
detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen in
As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der
orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of
the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far
as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an
English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult
to discover his main points.

Jonathan

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from
> Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private
> correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws
> writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the
> Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel
> of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that
> word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and
> there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into
> paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line.
> However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger
> than the others (influence from Dutch?).
> Herman
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com
> ------------------------------
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Madhav
> Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
> *Aan:* McComas Taylor
> *CC:* indology
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
> Dear McComas,
>
>      This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
> exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
> form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
> materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
> early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
> writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
> were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
> do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
> the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Campbell, California
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues
>>
>>
>> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
>> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>>
>>
>> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>> McComas
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>
>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>
>>
>> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>>
>> Ask me about my new project:
>>
>> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk  Tue May 15 16:19:48 2018
From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 16:19:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4JGSFRSGNV+wpQ+U_m4avBNzb9QfJO+NK4uTXr0WD6xWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523C4661B@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

Dear McComas

As you might have gathered from the various replies, I?m afraid your student asked a question which cannot really be answered, at least not yet?South Asian codicology is still in its cradle. As already pointed out in this thread, blank spaces were used already in Asokan inscriptions. In my modest opinion, the question cannot be easily answered also because we always have to distinguish between scripts and local usages. Moreover, other strategies were employed in manuscripts to achieve the same objective, for instance in many more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries. Also, the word dividers mentioned by Andrew are very widespread in all kind of Northern Indian manuscripts, above all of Gebrauchstexte and famous works which were read for teaching purposes. On the other hand, if I?m not wrong (my expertise in this field is very limited), South Indian scripts tend to have less punctuation and dividing marks than Northern Indian scripts.

You can get a good idea of such topics in the following book:

Einicke, Katrin. Korrektur, Differenzierung Und Abk?rzung in Indischen Inschriften und Handschriften. Abhandlungen F?r Die Kunde Des Morgenlandes ; Bd. 68. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009.

As to older manuscripts, I think this article is also very useful:

The Poetic and Prosodic Aspect of the Page. Forms and Graphic Artifices of Early Indic Buddhist Manuscripts in a Historical Perspective
Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina
DOI (Chapter): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110543100-009

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University?s
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com]
Sent: 15 May 2018 09:28
To: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Cc: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>; McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>; indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen in As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult to discover his main points.

Jonathan

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line. However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger than the others (influence from Dutch?).
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
Aan: McComas Taylor
CC: indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
Dear McComas,

     This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues



A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'



Can any of you learned folk help us out?



Thanks in advance



McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200



Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May 15 16:40:04 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 09:40:04 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523C4661B@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzd5503LYuMQNF=R264t2+Yyk2=bpb0s3MVkRzzf0MtDQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Camillo,

     There is something new to learn.  I noticed your statement: "in many
more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi
is used to mark word boundaries.".  I have not come across such
manuscripts, but evidently you have.  Can you give a reference to such a
manuscript, or give us a scan of a page from such a manuscript.  Except for
the Padap??ha manuscripts, I am not aware of this practice.  With best
wishes,

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Camillo Formigatti <
camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

> Dear McComas
>
>
>
> As you might have gathered from the various replies, I?m afraid your
> student asked a question which cannot really be answered, at least not
> yet?South Asian codicology is still in its cradle. As already pointed out
> in this thread, blank spaces were used already in Asokan inscriptions. In
> my modest opinion, the question cannot be easily answered also because we
> always have to distinguish between scripts and local usages. Moreover,
> other strategies were employed in manuscripts to achieve the same
> objective, for instance in many more manuscripts than we might think the
> non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries. Also,
> the word dividers mentioned by Andrew are very widespread in all kind of
> Northern Indian manuscripts, above all of Gebrauchstexte and famous works
> which were read for teaching purposes. On the other hand, if I?m not wrong
> (my expertise in this field is very limited), South Indian scripts tend to
> have less punctuation and dividing marks than Northern Indian scripts.
>
>
>
> You can get a good idea of such topics in the following book:
>
>
>
> Einicke, Katrin. *Korrektur, Differenzierung Und Abk?rzung in Indischen
> Inschriften und Handschriften*. Abhandlungen F?r Die Kunde Des
> Morgenlandes ; Bd. 68. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009.
>
>
>
> As to older manuscripts, I think this article is also very useful:
>
>
>
> The Poetic and Prosodic Aspect of the Page. Forms and Graphic Artifices of
> Early Indic Buddhist Manuscripts in a Historical Perspective
>
> Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina
>
> DOI (Chapter): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110543100-009
>
>
>
> I hope this is helpful.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Camillo
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>
> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>
>
>
> Bodleian Libraries
>
> The Weston Library
>
> Broad Street, Oxford
>
> OX1 3BG
>
>
>
> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>
> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>
>
>
> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>
> in Oxford University?s
>
> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>
> www.mindgrowing.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 15 May 2018 09:28
> *To:* Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
> *Cc:* Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>; McComas Taylor <
> McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>; indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
>
>
> Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in
> detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen
> in As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der
> orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of
> the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far
> as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an
> English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult
> to discover his main points.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from
> Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private
> correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws
> writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the
> Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel
> of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that
> word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and
> there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into
> paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line.
> However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger
> than the others (influence from Dutch?).
>
> Herman
>
>
>
> Herman Tieken
>
> Stationsweg 58
>
> 2515 BP Den Haag
>
> The Netherlands
>
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>
> website: hermantieken.com
> ------------------------------
>
> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Madhav
> Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
> *Aan:* McComas Taylor
> *CC:* indology
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
> Dear McComas,
>
>
>
>      This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
> exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
> form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
> materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
> early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
> writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
> were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
> do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
> the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.
>
>
>
> Madhav Deshpande
>
> Campbell, California
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues
>
>
>
> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>
>
>
> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
>
> McComas
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
>
> Ask me about my new project:
>
> *'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
>
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>,
> Room 0.05b
>
> 2311 BZ Leiden
>
> The Netherlands
>
>
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
>
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Tue May 15 17:04:22 2018
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 17:04:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzd5503LYuMQNF=R264t2+Yyk2=bpb0s3MVkRzzf0MtDQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D72088AA.5609B%lubint@wlu.edu>

Dear Madhav,

I my experience too, breaks in the application of external sandhi is a very common, even routine (if not consistently applied), as the most basic form of ?punctuation? in prose texts, used both for logical breaks in the syntax and occasionally just to avoid ambiguity.  Looking at the first lines of a commentary I have recently edited, I can find examples:
[cid:714FDB82-0720-4E4F-B9D4-0B3956017978]

In my edition:
[cid:D6C5F5CC-0DE2-4216-9F81-CE1D5B022413]

(Hope fully the images come through.)  Note the ak?aras on either side of where I have place the first two commas.  I see this all the time.

Best,
Tim

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
Chair of the Middle East and South Asia Studies Program
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu<mailto:mmdesh at umich.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 12:40 PM
To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

Hello Camillo,

     There is something new to learn.  I noticed your statement: "in many more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries.".  I have not come across such manuscripts, but evidently you have.  Can you give a reference to such a manuscript, or give us a scan of a page from such a manuscript.  Except for the Padap??ha manuscripts, I am not aware of this practice.  With best wishes,

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear McComas

As you might have gathered from the various replies, I?m afraid your student asked a question which cannot really be answered, at least not yet?South Asian codicology is still in its cradle. As already pointed out in this thread, blank spaces were used already in Asokan inscriptions. In my modest opinion, the question cannot be easily answered also because we always have to distinguish between scripts and local usages. Moreover, other strategies were employed in manuscripts to achieve the same objective, for instance in many more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries. Also, the word dividers mentioned by Andrew are very widespread in all kind of Northern Indian manuscripts, above all of Gebrauchstexte and famous works which were read for teaching purposes. On the other hand, if I?m not wrong (my expertise in this field is very limited), South Indian scripts tend to have less punctuation and dividing marks than Northern Indian scripts.

You can get a good idea of such topics in the following book:

Einicke, Katrin. Korrektur, Differenzierung Und Abk?rzung in Indischen Inschriften und Handschriften. Abhandlungen F?r Die Kunde Des Morgenlandes ; Bd. 68. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009.

As to older manuscripts, I think this article is also very useful:

The Poetic and Prosodic Aspect of the Page. Forms and Graphic Artifices of Early Indic Buddhist Manuscripts in a Historical Perspective
Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina
DOI (Chapter): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110543100-009

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University?s
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com<mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>]
Sent: 15 May 2018 09:28
To: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl<mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>>
Cc: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu<mailto:mmdesh at umich.edu>>; McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au<mailto:McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>>; indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen in As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult to discover his main points.

Jonathan

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line. However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger than the others (influence from Dutch?).
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
Aan: McComas Taylor
CC: indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
Dear McComas,

     This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues



A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'



Can any of you learned folk help us out?



Thanks in advance



McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200



Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
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indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3<https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk



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From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Tue May 15 17:05:46 2018
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 19:05:46 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <SY2PR01MB2667AF3A63D4E4CF79E1BF3FAE930@SY2PR01MB2667.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAETY2G1b0h3FV08=iAf=wXXuHKJMyqTcPt3br10gWxB3OawCjA@mail.gmail.com>

For one specific case of markers used to indicate word boundaries, see
Hahn's 2007 edition of the Kapphi??bhyudaya pp. 4ff. I have also found them
in other MSS, mostly from Nepal.

All the Best,
Victor



On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:02 AM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear colleagues
>
>
> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>
>
> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
> McComas
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>
> Ask me about my new project:
>
> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Tue May 15 17:10:22 2018
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 17:10:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <D72088AA.5609B%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <D7208C57.560B8%lubint@wlu.edu>

Dear Madhav,

[resent: annoyingly, the images did not come through, at least for me; I replace them with links]

I my experience too, breaks in the application of external sandhi is a very common, even routine (if not consistently applied), as the most basic form of ?punctuation? in prose texts, used both for logical breaks in the syntax and occasionally just to avoid ambiguity.  Looking at the first lines of a commentary I have recently edited, I can find examples:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5gva03bpwo4dia/-Anandasrama.ms288-4612a.png?dl=0

In my edition:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzfiwdpuaiu393e/Atharvasiras-Narayanaed.png?dl=0

(Hope fully the images come through.)  Note the ak?aras on either side of where I have place the first two commas.  I see this all the time.

Best,
Tim

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
Chair of the Middle East and South Asia Studies Program
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu<mailto:mmdesh at umich.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 12:40 PM
To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

Hello Camillo,

     There is something new to learn.  I noticed your statement: "in many more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries.".  I have not come across such manuscripts, but evidently you have.  Can you give a reference to such a manuscript, or give us a scan of a page from such a manuscript.  Except for the Padap??ha manuscripts, I am not aware of this practice.  With best wishes,

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear McComas

As you might have gathered from the various replies, I?m afraid your student asked a question which cannot really be answered, at least not yet?South Asian codicology is still in its cradle. As already pointed out in this thread, blank spaces were used already in Asokan inscriptions. In my modest opinion, the question cannot be easily answered also because we always have to distinguish between scripts and local usages. Moreover, other strategies were employed in manuscripts to achieve the same objective, for instance in many more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries. Also, the word dividers mentioned by Andrew are very widespread in all kind of Northern Indian manuscripts, above all of Gebrauchstexte and famous works which were read for teaching purposes. On the other hand, if I?m not wrong (my expertise in this field is very limited), South Indian scripts tend to have less punctuation and dividing marks than Northern Indian scripts.

You can get a good idea of such topics in the following book:

Einicke, Katrin. Korrektur, Differenzierung Und Abk?rzung in Indischen Inschriften und Handschriften. Abhandlungen F?r Die Kunde Des Morgenlandes ; Bd. 68. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009.

As to older manuscripts, I think this article is also very useful:

The Poetic and Prosodic Aspect of the Page. Forms and Graphic Artifices of Early Indic Buddhist Manuscripts in a Historical Perspective
Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina
DOI (Chapter): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110543100-009

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University?s
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com<mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>]
Sent: 15 May 2018 09:28
To: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl<mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>>
Cc: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu<mailto:mmdesh at umich.edu>>; McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au<mailto:McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>>; indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen in As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult to discover his main points.

Jonathan

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line. However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger than the others (influence from Dutch?).
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] namens Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
Aan: McComas Taylor
CC: indology
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
Dear McComas,

     This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues



A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'



Can any of you learned folk help us out?



Thanks in advance



McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200



Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3<https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk



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From hermantull at gmail.com  Tue May 15 17:45:11 2018
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 10:45:11 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <D7208C57.560B8%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNjQ3VUtag+5q6QzBCaM+994jRSTtO6B51ZMFP5xQtpdCg@mail.gmail.com>

This is a fascinating thread, and Camillo's remarks that there is still
much to be done in this area, certainly ring true.

Although McComas's initial concern was to find out when the scribes started
inserting spaces, I want to reiterate that the use of spaces is really a
European tradition, based on the fact that Europeans had become by the 19th
century were no longer comfortable with unspaced texts. (Unspaced printing
had been a European tradition, pre-1000.) In fact, many written cultures do
not use spaced texts, so we should in no way presume it is a "better" (or,
more "advanced") way of presenting text. Extensive presentation of Indian
texts with spacing likely is to be matched to the rise of printed texts in
India, which was initially directed by Europeans (Carey, Colebrooke, etc).

Related to this are the many 19th discussions of transliterated text, which
presume Sanskrit would be "easier" to read for Westerners (especially)
missionaries. This, too, is a ridiculous presupposition...

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Lubin, Tim via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Madhav,
>
> [resent: annoyingly, the images did not come through, at least for me; I
> replace them with links]
>
> I my experience too, breaks in the application of external sandhi is a
> very common, even routine (if not consistently applied), as the most basic
> form of ?punctuation? in prose texts, used both for logical breaks in the
> syntax and occasionally just to avoid ambiguity.  Looking at the first
> lines of a commentary I have recently edited, I can find examples:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5gva03bpwo4dia/-Anandasrama.
> ms288-4612a.png?dl=0
>
> In my edition:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzfiwdpuaiu393e/Atharvasiras-Narayanaed.png?dl=0
>
>
> (Hope fully the images come through.)  Note the ak?aras on either side of
> where I have place the first two commas.  I see this all the time.
>
> Best,
> Tim
>
> Timothy Lubin
> Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
> Chair of the Department of Religion
> Chair of the Middle East and South Asia Studies Program
> 204 Tucker Hall
> Washington and Lee University
> Lexington, Virginia 24450
>
> http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
> https://hcommons.org/members/lubin
> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
>
>
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Reply-To: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 12:40 PM
> To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
> Cc: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
> Hello Camillo,
>
>      There is something new to learn.  I noticed your statement: "in many
> more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi
> is used to mark word boundaries.".  I have not come across such
> manuscripts, but evidently you have.  Can you give a reference to such a
> manuscript, or give us a scan of a page from such a manuscript.  Except for
> the Padap??ha manuscripts, I am not aware of this practice.  With best
> wishes,
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Campbell, California
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Camillo Formigatti <
> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Dear McComas
>>
>>
>>
>> As you might have gathered from the various replies, I?m afraid your
>> student asked a question which cannot really be answered, at least not
>> yet?South Asian codicology is still in its cradle. As already pointed out
>> in this thread, blank spaces were used already in Asokan inscriptions. In
>> my modest opinion, the question cannot be easily answered also because we
>> always have to distinguish between scripts and local usages. Moreover,
>> other strategies were employed in manuscripts to achieve the same
>> objective, for instance in many more manuscripts than we might think the
>> non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries. Also,
>> the word dividers mentioned by Andrew are very widespread in all kind of
>> Northern Indian manuscripts, above all of Gebrauchstexte and famous works
>> which were read for teaching purposes. On the other hand, if I?m not wrong
>> (my expertise in this field is very limited), South Indian scripts tend to
>> have less punctuation and dividing marks than Northern Indian scripts.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can get a good idea of such topics in the following book:
>>
>>
>>
>> Einicke, Katrin. *Korrektur, Differenzierung Und Abk?rzung in Indischen
>> Inschriften und Handschriften*. Abhandlungen F?r Die Kunde Des
>> Morgenlandes ; Bd. 68. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009.
>>
>>
>>
>> As to older manuscripts, I think this article is also very useful:
>>
>>
>>
>> The Poetic and Prosodic Aspect of the Page. Forms and Graphic Artifices
>> of Early Indic Buddhist Manuscripts in a Historical Perspective
>>
>> Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina
>>
>> DOI (Chapter): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110543100-009
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this is helpful.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Camillo
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>>
>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>>
>>
>>
>> Bodleian Libraries
>>
>> The Weston Library
>>
>> Broad Street, Oxford
>>
>> OX1 3BG
>>
>>
>>
>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>>
>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>>
>>
>>
>> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>>
>> in Oxford University?s
>>
>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>>
>> www.mindgrowing.org
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 15 May 2018 09:28
>> *To:* Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
>> *Cc:* Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>; McComas Taylor <
>> McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>; indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in
>> detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen
>> in As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der
>> orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of
>> the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far
>> as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an
>> English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult
>> to discover his main points.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from
>> Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private
>> correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws
>> writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the
>> Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel
>> of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that
>> word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and
>> there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into
>> paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line.
>> However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger
>> than the others (influence from Dutch?).
>>
>> Herman
>>
>>
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>>
>> Stationsweg 58
>>
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>
>> website: hermantieken.com
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Madhav
>> Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
>> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
>> *Aan:* McComas Taylor
>> *CC:* indology
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>>
>> Dear McComas,
>>
>>
>>
>>      This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
>> exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
>> form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
>> materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
>> early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
>> writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
>> were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
>> do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
>> the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.
>>
>>
>>
>> Madhav Deshpande
>>
>> Campbell, California
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear colleagues
>>
>>
>>
>> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
>> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>>
>>
>>
>> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>>
>> McComas
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>
>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>
>>
>>
>> Ask me about my new project:
>>
>> *'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> J. Silk
>> Leiden University
>>
>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>
>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>,
>> Room 0.05b
>>
>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>
>> The Netherlands
>>
>>
>>
>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>
>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From franco at uni-leipzig.de  Tue May 15 18:20:48 2018
From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 20:20:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAETY2G1b0h3FV08=iAf=wXXuHKJMyqTcPt3br10gWxB3OawCjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180515202048.Horde.IRNtbN28wfh06GB6eE_3k1e@mail.uni-leipzig.de>


Dear All,
The Spitzer Manuscript, one of the oldest Skt manuscripts (of the  
Kushana period), regularly uses spaces between sentences.
It also uses special "viramic" forms of letters such as t or m in the  
end of sentences.
I think the same is true for the so-called "Dramenhandschrift", but am  
unable to check now.
The non-application of sandhi in the end of sentences is indeed very common.
Best wishes,
Eli



Zitat von victor davella via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> For one specific case of markers used to indicate word boundaries, see
> Hahn's 2007 edition of the Kapphi??bhyudaya pp. 4ff. I have also found them
> in other MSS, mostly from Nepal.
>
> All the Best,
> Victor
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:02 AM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear colleagues
>>
>>
>> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
>> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>>
>>
>> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>> McComas
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>
>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>
>>
>> [image: 1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>>
>> Ask me about my new project:
>>
>> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148







From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May 15 18:49:26 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 11:49:26 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <D72088AA.5609B%lubint@wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzcO0c=u6ay6pHHtohm7eu=219EFWdsARj7jrOP2UXtVMg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Tim, for this scan showing occasional breaks of external sandhis.

Madhav

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:04 AM, Lubin, Tim <LubinT at wlu.edu> wrote:

> Dear Madhav,
>
> I my experience too, breaks in the application of external sandhi is a
> very common, even routine (if not consistently applied), as the most basic
> form of ?punctuation? in prose texts, used both for logical breaks in the
> syntax and occasionally just to avoid ambiguity.  Looking at the first
> lines of a commentary I have recently edited, I can find examples:
>
> In my edition:
>
> (Hope fully the images come through.)  Note the ak?aras on either side of
> where I have place the first two commas.  I see this all the time.
>
> Best,
> Tim
>
> Timothy Lubin
> Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
> Chair of the Department of Religion
> Chair of the Middle East and South Asia Studies Program
> 204 Tucker Hall
> Washington and Lee University
> Lexington, Virginia 24450
>
> http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
> https://hcommons.org/members/lubin
> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949
>
>
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Reply-To: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 at 12:40 PM
> To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
> Cc: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
> Hello Camillo,
>
>      There is something new to learn.  I noticed your statement: "in many
> more manuscripts than we might think the non-application of external sandhi
> is used to mark word boundaries.".  I have not come across such
> manuscripts, but evidently you have.  Can you give a reference to such a
> manuscript, or give us a scan of a page from such a manuscript.  Except for
> the Padap??ha manuscripts, I am not aware of this practice.  With best
> wishes,
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Campbell, California
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:19 AM, Camillo Formigatti <
> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Dear McComas
>>
>>
>>
>> As you might have gathered from the various replies, I?m afraid your
>> student asked a question which cannot really be answered, at least not
>> yet?South Asian codicology is still in its cradle. As already pointed out
>> in this thread, blank spaces were used already in Asokan inscriptions. In
>> my modest opinion, the question cannot be easily answered also because we
>> always have to distinguish between scripts and local usages. Moreover,
>> other strategies were employed in manuscripts to achieve the same
>> objective, for instance in many more manuscripts than we might think the
>> non-application of external sandhi is used to mark word boundaries. Also,
>> the word dividers mentioned by Andrew are very widespread in all kind of
>> Northern Indian manuscripts, above all of Gebrauchstexte and famous works
>> which were read for teaching purposes. On the other hand, if I?m not wrong
>> (my expertise in this field is very limited), South Indian scripts tend to
>> have less punctuation and dividing marks than Northern Indian scripts.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can get a good idea of such topics in the following book:
>>
>>
>>
>> Einicke, Katrin. *Korrektur, Differenzierung Und Abk?rzung in Indischen
>> Inschriften und Handschriften*. Abhandlungen F?r Die Kunde Des
>> Morgenlandes ; Bd. 68. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2009.
>>
>>
>>
>> As to older manuscripts, I think this article is also very useful:
>>
>>
>>
>> The Poetic and Prosodic Aspect of the Page. Forms and Graphic Artifices
>> of Early Indic Buddhist Manuscripts in a Historical Perspective
>>
>> Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina
>>
>> DOI (Chapter): https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110543100-009
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this is helpful.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Camillo
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>>
>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>>
>>
>>
>> Bodleian Libraries
>>
>> The Weston Library
>>
>> Broad Street, Oxford
>>
>> OX1 3BG
>>
>>
>>
>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>>
>> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>>
>>
>>
>> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>>
>> in Oxford University?s
>>
>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>>
>> www.mindgrowing.org
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jonathan Silk [mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 15 May 2018 09:28
>> *To:* Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
>> *Cc:* Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>; McComas Taylor <
>> McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>; indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Alluded to earlier is what happens in A?oka's inscriptions, studied in
>> detail by Klaus Ludwig Janert:  Absta?nde und Schlussvokalverzeichnungen
>> in As?oka-Inschriften, Wiesbaden, : F. Steiner, 1972 . Verzeichnis der
>> orientalischen Handschriften in Deutschland. Supplementband ; 10. Some of
>> the VOHD is available online free, but apparently not this volume, as far
>> as I see from a cursory search. This work was much reviewed, and has an
>> English introduction, so even if you cannot read German it is not difficult
>> to discover his main points.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> A few years ago I have edited and translated Tamil letters sent from
>> Ceylon to Cape Town in South Africa between 1728-1737. It concerns private
>> correspondence: mother (dictated to brother-in-law), brothers, in-laws
>> writing to Nicolaas Ondaatje, who had been banished by the Dutch to the
>> Cape. The letters do not show any trace of interspacing. The initial vowel
>> of a word is attached to the final consonant of the preceding word (if that
>> word happens to end with a consonant). The letters lack punctuation and
>> there is no spacing between sentences. There is also no division into
>> paragraphs; a new paragraph may simply start in the middle of the line.
>> However, not infrequently the first letter of a new paragraph is larger
>> than the others (influence from Dutch?).
>>
>> Herman
>>
>>
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>>
>> Stationsweg 58
>>
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>
>> website: hermantieken.com
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *Van:* INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Madhav
>> Deshpande via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
>> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 mei 2018 6:43
>> *Aan:* McComas Taylor
>> *CC:* indology
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>>
>> Dear McComas,
>>
>>
>>
>>      This must have happened gradually after the Sanskrit Pundits were
>> exposed to English printing.  Even the early Sanskrit printed texts in the
>> form of pothis did not separate words.  I have many such old printed
>> materials.  I have attached a sample page.  If this practice continued into
>> early printing, it is simply because the printing style was copying the
>> writing style of the manuscripts.  I have photographs of a few texts that
>> were hand written by the famous Pandit Vasudeva Shastri Abhyankar where I
>> do not see gaps between the words.  Early pothis of Vedic texts printed by
>> the Nirnaya Sagara Press also do not show any gaps between words.
>>
>>
>>
>> Madhav Deshpande
>>
>> Campbell, California
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:02 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear colleagues
>>
>>
>>
>> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
>> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>>
>>
>>
>> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>>
>> McComas
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>
>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>
>>
>>
>> Ask me about my new project:
>>
>> *'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> J. Silk
>> Leiden University
>>
>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>
>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>,
>> Room 0.05b
>>
>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>
>> The Netherlands
>>
>>
>>
>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>
>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>
>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue May 15 23:41:58 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 15 May 18 17:41:58 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] SHASTRI has a new website
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Ce9MYMG91-Q1Jwz7X4Vua6O1rPJfN7PiyJSDmsM2jhmzQ@mail.gmail.com>

The SHASTRI Indo-Canadian Institute has a new website:
http://shastriinstitute.org

Please update your links and spread the word.

?
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?
??


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From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Wed May 16 02:06:40 2018
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 02:06:40 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts? - many thanks
Message-ID: <SY2PR01MB26677F2A854F365208330A1CAE920@SY2PR01MB2667.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Many thanks to all those scholars who kindly contributed to this discussion - appreciated!


Yours sincerely


McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


[1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]

Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'


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From clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed May 16 09:35:56 2018
From: clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz (Clemency Montelle)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 09:35:56 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Discovering De Jong blog
Message-ID: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FDEA807@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz>

Dear all,

I'm delighted to announce the launch of a blog dedicated to promoting and celebrating the De Jong collection which is now housed at the University of Canterbury, New Zealand.  The collection, acquired in 2000, consists of around 12, 000 published volumes and 50 linear metres of archival material. Subject areas cover Indology, Buddhist studies, classics, philosophy, and Australian history and literature.

The blog will periodically feature pieces written by scholars and research students about various 'special' items in the collection.  The home page of the blog can be found here:

https://blogs.canterbury.ac.nz/dejong/

We were lucky enough that McComas Taylor  provided the first blog. He offers his reflections on De Jong's copy of Wilkin's Bhagavad G?t?.  The direct link to his post here, with images can be found at:

 https://blogs.canterbury.ac.nz/dejong/2018/05/15/treasures-of-the-de-jong-collection-wilkins-bhagavadgita/

Please don't hesitate to contact me or the librarians at UC library (macbrown at libr.canterbury.ac.nz<mailto:macbrown at libr.canterbury.ac.nz>) if you would like to contribute.

With best wishes,
Clemency

----
Dr. Clemency Montelle
Associate Professor
School of Mathematics and Statistics
University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha
Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140
NEW ZEALAND
http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/

This email may be confidential and subject to legal privilege, it may
not reflect the views of the University of Canterbury, and it is not
guaranteed to be virus free. If you are not an intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and erase all copies of the message
and any attachments.

Please refer to http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/its/email-disclaimer/ for more
information.


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From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk  Wed May 16 16:15:00 2018
From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 16:15:00 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <CAETY2G1b0h3FV08=iAf=wXXuHKJMyqTcPt3br10gWxB3OawCjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523C468D1@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>

The use of word dividers is very widespread in manuscripts from Northern India and Nepal in general?for instance, it is developed to a high degree of exactness in Jaina manuscripts. As to the use of blank spaces between words, my impression is that blank spaces were used to separate syntactic units in prose or verses already early on, but not for single words systematically.

Best wishesm

Camillo


________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University?s
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: victor davella [mailto:vbd203 at googlemail.com]
Sent: 15 May 2018 18:06
To: McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>; indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?

For one specific case of markers used to indicate word boundaries, see Hahn's 2007 edition of the Kapphi??bhyudaya pp. 4ff. I have also found them in other MSS, mostly from Nepal.

All the Best,
Victor



On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:02 AM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear colleagues



A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'



Can any of you learned folk help us out?



Thanks in advance



McComas


------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200



Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu  Wed May 16 18:16:46 2018
From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 20:16:46 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
In-Reply-To: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523C468D1@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CADKD_zgASxDojc-KrvZ1TFNbmm9A5p8NQaT9-o5Fp=buAvthvA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

To quickly add to Camillo's statement, non-application of external sandhi
is a common (but not standardized) form of punctuation in Gilgit area
manuscripts, for example.

All best,
Charles

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> The use of word dividers is very widespread in manuscripts from Northern
> India and Nepal in general?for instance, it is developed to a high degree
> of exactness in Jaina manuscripts. As to the use of blank spaces between
> words, my impression is that blank spaces were used to separate syntactic
> units in prose or verses already early on, but not for single words
> systematically.
>
>
>
> Best wishesm
>
>
>
> Camillo
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>
> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>
>
>
> Bodleian Libraries
>
> The Weston Library
>
> Broad Street, Oxford
>
> OX1 3BG
>
>
>
> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>
> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk
>
>
>
> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>
> in Oxford University?s
>
> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>
> www.mindgrowing.org
>
>
>
> *From:* victor davella [mailto:vbd203 at googlemail.com]
> *Sent:* 15 May 2018 18:06
> *To:* McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>;
> indology at list.indology.info
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
>
>
> For one specific case of markers used to indicate word boundaries, see
> Hahn's 2007 edition of the Kapphi??bhyudaya pp. 4ff. I have also found them
> in other MSS, mostly from Nepal.
>
>
>
> All the Best,
>
> Victor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:02 AM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues
>
>
>
> A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer:  'When did scribes
> begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>
>
>
> Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
>
> McComas
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
>
> Ask me about my new project:
>
> *'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
Dr. des. Charles DiSimone | Research Scholar
Buddhist Digital Resource Center ????????
tbrc.org


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From rsalomon at uw.edu  Wed May 16 20:06:04 2018
From: rsalomon at uw.edu (Richard G Salomon)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 13:06:04 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts? > in inscriptions
In-Reply-To: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523C468D1@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cd292ea4-acd4-255a-3350-a87d62bb2d82@uw.edu>

I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned, but I briefly discussed 
the question of word division in inscriptions in my Indian Epigraphy 
book, p. 67. Basically, it is not found in Sanskrit inscriptions but 
does occur in some Prakrit inscriptions, mainly from the earlier periods.

Rich Salomon


On 5/16/2018 9:15 AM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> The use of word dividers is very widespread in manuscripts from 
> Northern India and Nepal in general?for instance, it is developed to a 
> high degree of exactness in Jaina manuscripts. As to the use of blank 
> spaces between words, my impression is that blank spaces were used to 
> separate syntactic units in prose or verses already early on, but not 
> for single words systematically.
>
> Best wishesm
>
> Camillo
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
>
> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian
>
> Bodleian Libraries
>
> The Weston Library
>
> Broad Street, Oxford
>
> OX1 3BG
>
> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk 
> <mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
>
> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk <http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>
>
> *GROW YOUR MIND*
>
> in Oxford University?s
>
> Gardens, Libraries and Museums
>
> www.mindgrowing.org <http://www.mindgrowing.org/>__
>
> *From:*victor davella [mailto:vbd203 at googlemail.com]
> *Sent:* 15 May 2018 18:06
> *To:* McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au>; 
> indology at list.indology.info
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?
>
> For one specific case of markers used to indicate word boundaries, see 
> Hahn's 2007 edition of the Kapphi??bhyudaya pp. 4ff. I have also found 
> them in other MSS, mostly from Nepal.
>
> All the Best,
>
> Victor
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:02 AM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>     Dear colleagues
>
>     A student has asked me a questions I cannot answer: 'When did
>     scribes begin to insert spaces between words in Sanskrit manuscripts?'
>
>     Can any of you learned folk help us out?
>
>     Thanks in advance
>
>     McComas
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>     Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>     College of Asia and the Pacific
>     The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>     Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
>     Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>     Ask me about my new project:
>
>     *'Translating the?Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
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>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed May 16 21:55:29 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 14:55:29 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfPTbtRLRXHkTfUUi8u6GGhPfpeAkCZMvk==NbNE5JT-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

??? ?? ??????: ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?

??????????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ?? ???????

O Kr???a, if your sweet names fall on my ears, then having received that
nectar for the ears, what else needs to be heard?


???? ??? ???????? ??????????? ?????????? ?? ?

??????????? ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ?? ???????

If Kr???a resides in my eyesight, then let anything else be in front of me.
Having received the nectar of sight, what else needs to be seen?


???? ???? ????????? ?? ???? ??????? ?

??????????? ???????????? ???????? ??????????? ?? ???????

O M?dhava, If I receive the touch of your hand filled with nectar, then
having received the nectar of touch, what else needs to be touched?


??????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????????? ?? ?

?????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ?? ???????

The delight of your name exceeds all other delights.  Having received the
delight of Kr???a, what else needs to be tasted?


????? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ?? ??????: ?

??????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ?? ???????

O Kr???a, your sweet words resound in my ears.  Having heard the nectar of
the Bhagavad-Gita, what remains to be asked?


????? ??? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ?

??????????? ????????? ????? ????? ???????? ???????

If your figure is in my heart and around me your blue color, then with you
near me, what else do I need to meditate upon.


?????? ?? ???? ?????????? ???????????? ?

?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

If you always reside in my heart, then, tell me O Kr???a, what else am I
supposed to think of?


????????: ???? ?? ?????????? ??? ?

???????? ?? ??: ??????????? ???????? ???????

If the Kr???a swan always roams in my lake, then where else shall my mind,
transfixed on it, go?


??? ??????? ????????? ????????????? ????????: ?

????? ?? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ?? ???????

?May I have this, and may I have that, and may I have it all,? thus I used
to desire.  But having achieved your friendship, I do not desire anything
else.


??????: ????? ?????????????????? ??????? ?

????: ????? ?? ?????????? ?????????? ?? ???????

O Kr???a, there is nothing else beyond you.  My only desire is that you
should not be beyond me.


????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ????????? ?

?? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ???? ????? ???????

Le my mind, resting in you, not run anywhere else.  O M?dhava, Don?t you
ever abandon me and run somewhere else.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu May 17 04:02:56 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 16 May 18 23:02:56 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Maharajas, Mahants and Historians
Message-ID: <8B5AC535-4D6D-4AB8-B759-9071377C55CF@aol.com>

Dear List Members,

I would appreciate very much if anyone could share the following article.

Kulke, Hermann (1985). ?Maharajas, Mahants and Historians: Reflections on the Historiography of Early Vijayanagara and Sringeri.? Vijayanagara?City and Empire: New Currents of Research, ed. A. L. Dallapiccola and S. Zingel-Av? Lallemant, pp. 120-143.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From astridzotter at yahoo.de  Thu May 17 12:26:08 2018
From: astridzotter at yahoo.de (astridzotter at yahoo.de)
Date: Thu, 17 May 18 12:26:08 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Nepali Summer School
In-Reply-To: <8B5AC535-4D6D-4AB8-B759-9071377C55CF@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1536603118.4112533.1526559968913@mail.yahoo.com>


DearColleagues,

The Research Unit ?Documents onthe History of Religion and Law in Premodern Nepal?, Heidelberg Academy ofSciences and Humanities and the Department of Cultural and Religious History ofSouth Asia, South Asia Institute, Heidelberg is pleased to offer a 

?

-? Nepali Summer Course (Laxmi NathShrestha)

?

from?3rd to 28th September, 2018?atthe South Asia Institute, Heidelberg.

?

Applications for participation in these courses areinvited and should reach us by?15th June 2018.

?

We would be verygrateful if you could inform your colleagues and students about thisopportunity by forwarding the enclosed posters. 

?

For further questions please do nothesitate to contact 

?

Bastian Jantke,

?

Coordinator, Nepali Summer Course 2018 

Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities

?

E-mail: nepali at sai.uni-heidelberg.de



Best wishes
Astrid

---

Dr. Astrid Zotter
Researcher and Project Coordinator
Unit "Historical Documents of Pre-modern Nepal"
Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities

South Asia Institute
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg

+49-6221-544940+49-6221-544940

 http://www.haw.uni-heidelberg.de/forschung/forschungsstellen/nepal/index.en.htmlCallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype 

  
 


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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu May 17 16:05:11 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 17 May 18 11:05:11 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [RISA-L LIST] Norvin Hein
In-Reply-To: <CAAMfvH1UBxsvHX75b31LjfAJcMZc62dhoOAgd6pWvm8JDsVwAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C36A0BE-29CB-4383-827D-CA7AB5212A81@aol.com>

This note from Jack Hawley on Prof. Norvin Hein posted on the RISA list may be of interest to some on this list.

Regards,
Palaniappan

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Jack Hawley <jsh3 at columbia.edu>
> Subject: [RISA-L LIST] Norvin Hein
> Date: May 17, 2018 at 10:11:44 AM CDT
> To: risa-l <risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu>, dmagier <dmagier at princeton.edu>, suzembree <suzembree at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ <risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu>
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> In case the news has not reached you, let me take this opportunity to say that Norvin Hein passed away last month at his home in Bethany, Connecticut, not far from Yale, where he was active for many, many years.  There will be a ceremony in Bethany at noon tomorrow, which will include a sharing of food and memories.  Here are some of my own, posted from Vrindavan:
> 
> http://www.vrindavantoday.com/2018/05/norvin-heins-life-and-contribution-to-the-study-of-rasa-lila/ <http://www.vrindavantoday.com/2018/05/norvin-heins-life-and-contribution-to-the-study-of-rasa-lila/> .
> 
> With thanks and best greetings to all,
> Jack
> 
> -- 
> John Stratton Hawley 
> Claire Tow Professor of Religion
> Barnard College, Columbia University
> 3009 Broadway
> New York, NY 10027 USA
> 
> Website: www.johnstrattonhawley.org <http://www.johnstrattonhawley.org/>
> India telephone:  +91 756 754 3989
> New York telephone: (212) 854-5292
> Fax: (212) 854-7491
> Office hours: On leave, 2016-17.
> E-mail: jsh3 at columbia.edu <mailto:jsh3 at columbia.edu>_______________________________________________
> PLEASE post to this list ONLY from an email account that has been subscribed.
> PLEASE use a signature with your full name and institutional affiliation.
> 
> RISA-L mailing list
> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu
> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l



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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Thu May 17 19:54:05 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 17 May 18 14:54:05 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Maharajas, Mahants and Historians
In-Reply-To: <8B5AC535-4D6D-4AB8-B759-9071377C55CF@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FBCC6799-6B29-4F5A-B6DD-A7527D6AA5FD@aol.com>

Dear List Members,

I received copies of the article from two members and two others offered to send it. 

Many thanks to all of them!

Regards,
Palaniappan

> On May 16, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear List Members,
> 
> I would appreciate very much if anyone could share the following article.
> 
> Kulke, Hermann (1985). ?Maharajas, Mahants and Historians: Reflections on the Historiography of Early Vijayanagara and Sringeri.? Vijayanagara?City and Empire: New Currents of Research, ed. A. L. Dallapiccola and S. Zingel-Av? Lallemant, pp. 120-143.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri May 18 02:09:08 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 17 May 18 19:09:08 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfNhzqkN800TZN9jzsTo_tLiB48m8Vf++h7k4mkwK0fXA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

?????? ?? ?? ?????? ?????????????????? ?

????????? ???????? ??????????????: ?????: ???????

Whatever exists in this world originated from you.  You are inside all the
moving and the unmoving objects.


??????????? ??????? ???? ? ???? ??????? ?

?????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????

You are the milkman and you are the milkmaid, O Kr???a.  You are yourself
the Gokula.  Therefore, you are happy with yourself.


????????????????? ??? ????????????????? ?

????????? ? ????????? ????? ?? ???? ???????

O Kr???a, you indeed delight in yourself, satisfied with yourself, and
contented with yourself with your plays.


???????????? ??? ?????????????? ?????? ???? ?

?????????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ???????

You are the holy sound OM, O Kr???a, the highest essence of speech.  O Kr???a,
you are the meaning of all words.


???????? ???????? ????????? ??????? ?

??????????? ???? ???????? ?????????? ???????

Whatever I do, eat, sacrifice and toil for, O Kr???a, I offer it all to you.


?????????? ????????????? ?? ?????????? ?

???????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??? ???????

My mind is convinced that I belong to you and you belong to me.  With Kr???a
being always in my heart, where is the question of giving and taking?


????? ????? ?: ????????????? ???: ???? ?

??? ???? ??????? ????????????? ?????? ???????

O Kr???a, if you are always everywhere, and there is nothing else, then who
can give anything to anyone, or take something from someone?


??? ??????: ?????? ???????? ??????? ?: ?

??? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ???????? ???????

Just as the ocean itself creates waves, similarly, O Kr???a, we are the
waves created by you around you.


???????????? ??????: ??????? ??????? ?????: ?

????? ???? ???????? ? ?? ???? ????: ???????

Though the waves belong the ocean, and the ocean does not belong to the
waves, still there is no doubt in my mind that you belong to me.


?????? ????????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?

????????? ?????????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???????

Just as we see the coming and going of waves in the ocean, similarly you
created comings and goings for us, who belong to you.


?? ??? ??? ?????: ??? ???????? ??????? ?

???????????? ??????????????????? ??? ???????

Who are we, where did we come from and where are we going, O Lord?  O Kr???a,
you are the only answer for all these questions.


???????? ????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???? ?

??? ??????? ????????? ??? ?? ???? ???????

Like Arjuna, I ask you various questions everyday, O Kr???a.  Do reply to
me, when you get a moment.


?????? ?? ????????? ????????????????? ?

????? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ???????? ???????

I know the burden of your task in keeping the wheel of the world
rotating.  Still,
do respond to me, O Kr???a, as you please.


Madhav Deshpande


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Fri May 18 08:39:13 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Fri, 18 May 18 14:09:13 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0g4KSF4KSy4KSC4KSV4KS+4KSw4KS24KS+4KS44KWN4KSk4KWN4KSw4KWHIOCksuCkleCljeCkt+Cko+CkvuCkteCljeCkr+CkvuCkquCkvuCksOCkgw==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB_6t-JkBZnprsh37V4z-twtA6sT8CUG7LaBBpVY134C2RD5yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebi_UT_3wB9pm2wR819ss5RWXROC0pUDKANsBRSu7cD4w@mail.gmail.com>

 Studies On Some Concepts Of The Alankara Sastra

by V Raghavan

at


https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.20774

has a chapter on LakshaNaa (pp 1-47)


2018-05-18 13:57 GMT+05:30 Sundareswaran N.K <nkswaran at gmail.com>:

> ??? ?????????
> ?????????????? ?????????????? ???  ????? ??????? ???????? ??????
> ?????????????? ?????  ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???????? ??????????? ????
> ?????????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? : - https://www.academia.edu/
> 25032318/%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%99_%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%
> E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B8_%E0%A4%A4_%E0%A4%B0%E0%
> A5%87_%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%95_%E0%A4%B7%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%
> B5_%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%83
>
> ????????????????????
> ????????????????
> --
> N. K. Sundareswaran,
> Professor & Head, Department of Sanskrit,
> University of Calicut,
> Kerala - 673635
> INDIA
> https://universityofcalicut.academia.edu/SundareswaranNK
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Fri May 18 10:25:54 2018
From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL)
Date: Fri, 18 May 18 10:25:54 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL Update #488
Message-ID: <9f18e7a58efe43a6a6a3bed3ab3e1743@sub.uni-goettingen.de>

GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:

Texts added:
Bana: Harsacarita<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#BanaHcar>: plain text
Mahadandadharanisitavati<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#MaDaDh>
Secondary Resource added:
Aufrecht: Catalogus Catalogorum<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#AufrCC>
Text revised:
Asvaghosa: Buddhacarita<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#AsvBc2>: verse 5.77 revised

__________________________________________________________________________
GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm



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From stella.sandahl at gmail.com  Fri May 18 14:58:40 2018
From: stella.sandahl at gmail.com (Stella Sandahl)
Date: Fri, 18 May 18 10:58:40 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Junked emails
Message-ID: <4606F1F4-11C3-44E0-A105-116C1B62C4BC@gmail.com>

All Indology emails sent to my google e-mail address stella.sandahl at gmail.com <mailto:stella.sandahl at gmail.com>, are
always put in junk mail
Please do NOT send any further Indology messages to this google address. Instead please 
use this address: ssandahl at sympatico.ca <mailto:ssandahl at sympatico.ca>
Many thanks
Stella Sandahl


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From LubinT at wlu.edu  Fri May 18 17:55:25 2018
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Fri, 18 May 18 17:55:25 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0g4KSF4KSy4KSC4KSV4KS+4KSw4KS24KS+4KS44KWN4KSk4KWN4KSw4KWHIOCksuCkleCljeCkt+Cko+CkvuCkteCljeCkr+CkvuCkquCkvuCksOCkgw==?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebi_UT_3wB9pm2wR819ss5RWXROC0pUDKANsBRSu7cD4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D7248B56.56598%lubint@wlu.edu>

Note that there is a revised edition of Raghavan?s Studies on Some Concepts of the Alankara ??stra, from 1973, also available
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.495255

Best,
Tim

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949


From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, May 18, 2018 at 4:39 AM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] {???????????????????} ?????????????? ??????????????

Studies On Some Concepts Of The Alankara Sastra

by V Raghavan

at


https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.20774

has a chapter on LakshaNaa (pp 1-47)


2018-05-18 13:57 GMT+05:30 Sundareswaran N.K <nkswaran at gmail.com<mailto:nkswaran at gmail.com>>:
??? ?????????
?????????????? ?????????????? ???  ????? ??????? ???????? ??????  ?????????????? ?????  ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???????? ??????????? ???? ?????????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? : - https://www.academia.edu/25032318/%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%99_%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B8_%E0%A4%A4_%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%87_%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%95_%E0%A4%B7%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B5_%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%83

????????????????????
????????????????
--
N. K. Sundareswaran,
Professor & Head, Department of Sanskrit,
University of Calicut,
Kerala - 673635
INDIA
https://universityofcalicut.academia.edu/SundareswaranNK

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "???????????????????" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com<mailto:bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com<mailto:bvparishat at googlegroups.com>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )





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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat May 19 05:01:31 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 18 May 18 22:01:31 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdJT5VEBYHOBztqiT8kLF0bq0OQNXV7sif8H-mH8YcFFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

??????????? ????? ?????????????? ????????? ?
?????????? ??????????????? ??????????: ?????
Living unseen in the heart, you are not found because you are so subtle,
and not because you don?t exist. This is how one should reply to the pour
deluded logician.

????????? ??????? ??????????????????? ?
??????? ??????? ?????????????????? ??????????? ???????
O Lord, in your cosmic form, you are not found because you are so great.
You are unseen with the physical eyes, but are visible to the divine eye.

??????????? ?????????????????? ?????? ?
?????? ????????????????? ??????????? ??????? ???????
Even though Arjuna was near you [on the battlefield of Kuruk?etra], he was
unable to see you [in your true form]. Therefore, you gave him the divine
eye to enable him to see your cosmic form.

??????????? ??? ???? ?????? ???????????? ?: ?
??? ?: ????? ???????? ????? ??????? ??????? ???????
Since he was your friend and devotee, he received this divine eye. Let
anyone who is your friend and devotee receive your vision.

???????????? ???????????? ??????????????? ?????? ?
??? ?????????????: ?????? ????????? ???????????: ???????
Thinking that there are [two people] Kr???a and Arjuna standing on the holy
battle field of the Kurus, Arjuna asked Kr???a with a confused mind.

????????? ????????? ????????? ??????? ??? ?
??????????????????? ???????????????:? ???????
?How shall I kill in battle these enemy relatives. Only sin will accrue to
us by killing these impetuous enemies.?

??? ?????? ??????????????????????????????? ?
??? ? ??????????? ????????????? ?????? ???????
When Arjuna saw the cosmic form of Kr???a with the divine eye given to him,
then he truly realize his own smallness.

??????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???? ?
??????????? ????????????????????????????: ?????: ???????
The entire world is inside of the cosmic Kr???a. The chariot is inside of
him. The battle is inside of him. Arjuna himself is inside of him.

?????: ???????????? ????????????: ?????: ?
???????????? ?????? ????????????????? ??????? ???????
The Kauravas, the P???avas, the elephants, horses and the foot soldiers.
The entire battle field of the Kurus was inside of Kr???a.

????? ?? ??????????? ????? ????? ? ????: ?
????????????? ???????????????? ????? ???? ???????
Kr???a alone is the creator, the sustainer and the destroyer of the world.
Arjuna was merely an instrument, and we are similar to him.

???????????????????????? ???? ??????? ?
???????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ???????
Neither killing nor being killed, we are little specks of him, and in the
play of the Lord, we do comings and goings for the play.


Madhav Deshpande

Campbell, California


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat May 19 13:54:32 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 19 May 18 06:54:32 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gQ29udGludWluZyB3aXRoIG15IEtyaXNobmEgdmVyc2Vz?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdJT5VEBYHOBztqiT8kLF0bq0OQNXV7sif8H-mH8YcFFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdctyN_LHfzD6ChkmSfKy9+x7OMhK2XCsDcx9P+AXCaXw@mail.gmail.com>

Just noticed a Mudr?r?k?asa:  Translation of verse 258: "pour deluded
logician" should of course be "poor deluded logician".  Typing late at
night can result in such errors.

Madhav

2018-05-18 22:01 GMT-07:00 Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>:

> Continuing with my Krishna verses:
>
> ??????????? ????? ?????????????? ????????? ?
> ?????????? ??????????????? ??????????: ?????
> Living unseen in the heart, you are not found because you are so subtle,
> and not because you don?t exist. This is how one should reply to the pour
> deluded logician.
>
> ????????? ??????? ??????????????????? ?
> ??????? ??????? ?????????????????? ??????????? ???????
> O Lord, in your cosmic form, you are not found because you are so great.
> You are unseen with the physical eyes, but are visible to the divine eye.
>
> ??????????? ?????????????????? ?????? ?
> ?????? ????????????????? ??????????? ??????? ???????
> Even though Arjuna was near you [on the battlefield of Kuruk?etra], he was
> unable to see you [in your true form]. Therefore, you gave him the divine
> eye to enable him to see your cosmic form.
>
> ??????????? ??? ???? ?????? ???????????? ?: ?
> ??? ?: ????? ???????? ????? ??????? ??????? ???????
> Since he was your friend and devotee, he received this divine eye. Let
> anyone who is your friend and devotee receive your vision.
>
> ???????????? ???????????? ??????????????? ?????? ?
> ??? ?????????????: ?????? ????????? ???????????: ???????
> Thinking that there are [two people] Kr???a and Arjuna standing on the
> holy battle field of the Kurus, Arjuna asked Kr???a with a confused mind.
>
> ????????? ????????? ????????? ??????? ??? ?
> ??????????????????? ???????????????:? ???????
> ?How shall I kill in battle these enemy relatives. Only sin will accrue to
> us by killing these impetuous enemies.?
>
> ??? ?????? ??????????????????????????????? ?
> ??? ? ??????????? ????????????? ?????? ???????
> When Arjuna saw the cosmic form of Kr???a with the divine eye given to
> him, then he truly realize his own smallness.
>
> ??????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???? ?
> ??????????? ????????????????????????????: ?????: ???????
> The entire world is inside of the cosmic Kr???a. The chariot is inside of
> him. The battle is inside of him. Arjuna himself is inside of him.
>
> ?????: ???????????? ????????????: ?????: ?
> ???????????? ?????? ????????????????? ??????? ???????
> The Kauravas, the P???avas, the elephants, horses and the foot soldiers.
> The entire battle field of the Kurus was inside of Kr???a.
>
> ????? ?? ??????????? ????? ????? ? ????: ?
> ????????????? ???????????????? ????? ???? ???????
> Kr???a alone is the creator, the sustainer and the destroyer of the world.
> Arjuna was merely an instrument, and we are similar to him.
>
> ???????????????????????? ???? ??????? ?
> ???????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ???????
> Neither killing nor being killed, we are little specks of him, and in the
> play of the Lord, we do comings and goings for the play.
>
>
> Madhav Deshpande
>
> Campbell, California
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "???????????????????" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com.
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>


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat May 19 17:15:43 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 19 May 18 10:15:43 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Marathi poem on Krishna
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzf28-oDWy3PXqa-ytsq-GCYszdJEp_SCd=Bx=AwB=YbqA@mail.gmail.com>

My Marathi poem on Krishna:

?????????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????
?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????
???? ???????? ???????????? ??????? ?????
??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????

The beautiful Blue Cloud roams in the sky of Gokula. His buddies roam
around him and their play looks beautiful. With the reflection of that
play, the water of Yamuna trembles, and Mother Yashoda, after seeing the
play, is very happy in her mind.

Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun May 20 03:12:33 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 19 May 18 20:12:33 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzevjBmvyyKBXzKyU460BzJgwSdgonvnVXPTRLH3qoE7kA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

???????????? ???????????? ??? ???????????: ?

?????????????????????? ????? ???????? ???????

At that (ancient time) on the holy battlefield of the Kurus, the Kauravas
and P???avas killed all the eighteen armies.


????? ????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ?

?????????? ?? ???? ???? ???????????: ???????

O Kr???a, a battle goes on even in my mind all the time.  My mind has
created its own Kauravas and P???avas.


???????: ?????????? ? ?????? ???????? ?

??????? ??????? ?????? ??????????????????? ???????

Born together, these Kauravas and P???avas do not tolerate each other, and
they constantly create unbearable attacks on my mind.


???????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?

??????????????????? ????? ???????????: ???????

Like Bh??ma fallen on the ground [in the Mahabharata battle], I watch this
battle raging around me.  How will these Kauravas and P???avas [in my mind]
stop this battle?


?????????????????? ?? ???????? ??????: ?

????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ???????

Modulations of my mind have become these Kauravas and P???avas.  To stop
them from battling, I need your help, O Kr???a.


?????????????????????? ? ? ????????????? ????? ?

?????????????: ????? ???? ?? ?????????: ???????

Raising up my arms, I call them out, but no one listens to me.  O Kr???a,
perhaps these unrestrained warriors might listen to you.


?????????????????? ?? ??? ?? ???????????: ?

?????? ?????????????????? ?????????? ???? ????? ???????

If my Kauravas and P???avas were to see your cosmic form, they would
certainly stop battling, and my mind will attain peace.


?????: ???????????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?

????? ?? ?????????: ???????????? ?? ???????

Struck with my own arrows, how shall I find peace, O Lord?  Perhaps, a
pleasant touch of your hand may pacify my pain.


???????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ?

?????? ???????: ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???????

When in the battle the P???avas were about to be completely destroyed, O
Lord, you compassionately saved five of them from fire.


????????????????????? ???????? ???????? ?

?? ????????????? ??? ???? ????? ???????

The house of my mind is burning with fierce flames.  O Compassionate Lord,
quench this fire with the shower of your sweetness.


Madhav Deshpande
Campbell, California


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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Mon May 21 11:50:20 2018
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 13:50:20 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two new books from IeT
Message-ID: <20180521135020.Horde.VdEdEdNHyjGVqW15vvdFppl@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>


---------------

Dear Colleagues,

I would like to point out two new publications in the Indica et  
Tibetica-Verlag.


1.
?yurveda und Poesie
Lolimbar?jas Lehrgedicht ?Leben des Arztes? (Vaidyaj?vana)

Herausgegeben und ?bersetzt von J?rgen Hanneder und Thomas Sch?fer.
Marburg: Indica et Tibetica Verlag 2018. 113 pp. (Broschiert)
ISBN 978-3-923776-57-3
Price:  18,00 ?

A collection of ?yurvedic recepies, but written as a K?vya and  
directed to the wife of the author. Re-edited Sanskrit text with  
German translation, Index of substances etc.

2.
Subh?ticandra's Kavik?madhenu on Amarako?a 1.4.8cd?2.2.5ab
Together with Si tu Pa? chen's Tibetan translation
(Indica et Tibetica 56)

Edited and introduced by Lata Mahesh Deokar.
Marburg: Indica et Tibetica Verlag 2018. xiii, 740 pp. (Hardcover)
ISBN 978-3-923776-58-0
Price:  48,00 ?

First Critical Edition of the Text and Tibetan Translation of this  
elaborate commentary on the Amarako?a.

The first volume was IeT 55 (2014).

For details and previews see  http://www.iet-verlag.de

Best regards,

J?rgen Hanneder


---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder at staff.uni-marburg.de






From fleming_b4 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 13:59:58 2018
From: fleming_b4 at hotmail.com (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 13:59:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] IndUni keyboard layouts?
Message-ID: <YTXPR0101MB14533A2540E463035147D264A4950@YTXPR0101MB1453.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Dear List,

I am currently trying to update my unicode diacritics input method from the "cut and paste? and or ?autocorrect? input methods I currently use. I was pointed to the IndUni keyboard layouts which I found on John Smith?s web site, however since the instructions are from 2009 I am not finding it easy to adapt to current Mac OS. Is their a better input system than IndUni that people use or have people learned to adapt it to current OS? 

Thanks for any input/help!

Best Wishes,
Ben Fleming




From fleming_b4 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 14:49:04 2018
From: fleming_b4 at hotmail.com (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 14:49:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] IndUni keyboard layouts?
In-Reply-To: <CAEYKMafXjbqLz1L_R3qU4yPTqiU1J0DK0i6DSPRxfOoPPw76Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YTXPR0101MB1453CEFC642AC29C6517C520A4950@YTXPR0101MB1453.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Dear Elisa,

Thanks you for your message. That is helpful though I find that only about 4 useful diacritical marks come up on the default ABC Extended keyboard: ?, ?, ?, and ? that I can see (I am using a Unicode font). Is there a good tutorial for navigating and/or inputting the diacritics one needs for Sanskrit? It is not self evident, at least to me.

Best,
Ben

On May 21, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Elisa Freschi <elisa.freschi at gmail.com<mailto:elisa.freschi at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Benjamin,

if you use a Mac, you just need to type using a ?US extended? or ?ABC extended? keyboard layout and select a unicode font, like Times or Gentium.

Best,

elisa

On Mon 21. May 2018 at 16:00, Benjamin Fleming via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear List,

I am currently trying to update my unicode diacritics input method from the "cut and paste? and or ?autocorrect? input methods I currently use. I was pointed to the IndUni keyboard layouts which I found on John Smith?s web site, however since the instructions are from 2009 I am not finding it easy to adapt to current Mac OS. Is their a better input system than IndUni that people use or have people learned to adapt it to current OS?

Thanks for any input/help!

Best Wishes,
Ben Fleming
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
--
Dr. Elisa Freschi

(Tue to Thu)
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Hollandstra?e 11-13, 2nd floor NEW ADDRESS!
1020 Vienna, Austria
Phone ++43 (0)1 51581 6433
Fax ++43 (0)1 51581 6410


(Fri to Tue)
Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
University of Vienna
Spitalgasse 2, Hof 2, Eingang 2.1
1090 Vienna, Austria
Phone ++43 (0)1 4277 43505

http://elisafreschi.com<http://elisafreschi.com/>
http://oeaw.academia.edu/elisafreschi




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From fleming_b4 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 15:04:37 2018
From: fleming_b4 at hotmail.com (Benjamin Fleming)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 15:04:37 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] IndUni keyboard layouts?
In-Reply-To: <AB942CDF-28FB-40A3-A8F9-CADE9AAC9450@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YTXPR0101MB145362D7FD3CBE8316E7FB3FA4950@YTXPR0101MB1453.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Dear Dan,

Thanks. I now have it figured out, was only missing the ? and have everything figured out now.

Best,
Ben

On May 21, 2018, at 11:01 AM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com<mailto:prajnapti at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Ben,

You don?t need an additional input system beyond what the Mac already has (but needs to be activated). The key to easy diacritical input on a Mac is to use the ABC Extended keyboard layout, instead of the regular English keyboard. That can be added from the System Preferences menu under Keyboard.

Then, you can type option-x + [any letter] to place an underdot under it: ? ? ? ? etc.
option-a places a macron over any letter - ? ? ? etc.
option-w places an overdot over any letter - ? ? etc
option-n + n = ?
option-e + [any letter] places forward slash - ? ?, etc.
option-u + [any letter] places an umlaut over the letter - ? ? etc.
and much more.

The [any letter] can be a capital or lower case. ?gveda (option-x + r) or ?g Veda (option-x + shift-r); ?iva (option-e + shift-s), etc.

This is a system-wide setting, so it works in any program: not just Word, but any program in which you can type. Word processor, email, text, etc. Easy once you get the hang. You won?t need to copy-and-paste autocorrect entries in Word - you?ll be able to type them directly into the autocorrect dialogue with the proper diacriticals.

Until you remember all the combinations, you can turn on ?Show Keyboard Viewer? from the keyboard layout menu that will appear in the upper right. When you press the option key it will highlight in orange the activated diacriticals.

Diacriticals are still something of a problem on PCs, but not a Mac.

The following might help you set it up.
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/120938/wheres-the-us-international-keyboard-on-os-x-10-9-mavericks

There might be a better tutorial out there, but this will get you started.

good luck.
Dan


On May 21, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Benjamin Fleming via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear List,

I am currently trying to update my unicode diacritics input method from the "cut and paste? and or ?autocorrect? input methods I currently use. I was pointed to the IndUni keyboard layouts which I found on John Smith?s web site, however since the instructions are from 2009 I am not finding it easy to adapt to current Mac OS. Is their a better input system than IndUni that people use or have people learned to adapt it to current OS?

Thanks for any input/help!

Best Wishes,
Ben Fleming
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




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From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Mon May 21 17:09:48 2018
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 19:09:48 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_Reading_Seminar_-_Marburg,_6.-10.8.2018?=
Message-ID: <20180521190948.Horde.dvhZuyKS-u4Q8-xxfldjPeX@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

-------------

Dear Colleagues

I would like to announce an intensive Sanskrit reading week at the  
University of Marburg, Germany, 6.-10.2018, where we shall deal with a  
newly edited text, the Bhusu??a story from the Mok?op?ya. Details can  
be seen in the flyer attached.

Best regards,
J?rgen Hanneder
-----------------

---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder at staff.uni-marburg.de

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From paolo.magnone at unicatt.it  Mon May 21 17:31:08 2018
From: paolo.magnone at unicatt.it (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 19:31:08 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Renou=E2=80=99s_article_needed?=
Message-ID: <da04d930-76a6-ed0e-c039-417e25d46488@unicatt.it>

Friends,

Would anybody be willing to share a copy of Renou?s (with Silburn) seminal study ?Sur la notion de brahman?, Journal Asiatique 237 (1949)? The old collection has seemingly been digitised only until 1940, nor do local libraries have a hard copy of the volume.

Thank you,

Paolo Magnone

--

Paolo Magnone
Sanskrit Language and Literature
Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
Introduction to Hinduism
Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan

Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net<http://www.jambudvipa.net>)
Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone




[http://Static.unicatt.it/layout/img/layout/5x1000.gif]
Destina il tuo 5 per mille all?Universit? Cattolica
CF 02133120150
www.unicatt.it/5permille<http://www.unicatt.it/5permille/>



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon May 21 18:04:03 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 21 May 18 11:04:03 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdR0H=8TiQ1Z4HHzudL0Kb1QcpfXMNJ7dhO5Z4LJZdBBg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

????????????? ????????? ?????????? ???? ?? ?
?????? ??? ???????? ????????? ????????? ???????
Even though Arjuna was a recipient of your compassion, even after hearing
your words, and saying ?I will carry out your words,? he forgot your words
after [the battle].

?????? ? ??????? ???????? ????? ??????? ?
???????????????? ??????? ???????: ???: ???????
[Therefore], he against asked you the significance of the Bhagavad-Gita,
and in the Later Gita [Uttara-Gita], you instructed him again.

?????? ??????: ????? ??? ? ?????? ??????: ?
????????????????? ????????? ?????????? ???????
Where am I with limited intelligence and where is Arjuna, the great mind.
[Still] I am struggling to make sense of your words.

????? ???? ? ???????????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ?
?????? ???? ????? ????????: ???: ???: ???????
If after making effort there is no success, then, O Lord, what should I do?
O Kr???a, you yourself should teach me again and again out of compassion.

????? ??? ?????????? ???????????? ???? ?
???????????????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???????
We who are little specks of you are ignorant, while you are knowledge
incarnate. O Kr???a, how can you tolerate this ignorance of ours?

??? ??? ???????? ????????? ?? ?????
???????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????
By whichever way, please satisfy my curiosity. With me remaining ignorant,
how can you be compassionate?

??????? ?? ???????? ?? ??? ????????? ???? ?
?????? ??????: ????? ??????????????????: ???????
I am like an atom, and you are so great, O Lord. How do you see me? There
are an infinite number of people like me, while you are the only
compassionate one.

??????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ?
????????????????? ????????: ?????? ???? ???????
O Lord, you are engaged in the benefit for all. We are always bathed in the
streams of your compassion.

????? ?? ???????????????? ?????????: ?
??????????: ???? ??????? ??? ????????? ???????
O Kr???a, being nudged by the flood of your compassion, we will certainly
reach across the ocean of ignorance.

?????? ???? ????????? ??? ???????? ????????? ?
?????????????????????? ?????? ???? ???????
If we get a rebirth in Gokula, then what is the use of heaven. The company
of the Delight of Nanda exceeds the Forest of Joy [in heaven].


Madhav Deshpande

Campbell, California


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May 22 22:49:40 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 22 May 18 15:49:40 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Concluding_(=3F)_verses_of_my_M=C4=81dhavakar=E1=B9=87=C4=81mr=CC=A5ta?=
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeeQEJnokzDuV65PQS8vUJFrB4d+5-4ZFU-EBChxcc6Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Concluding (?) verses of my Krishna poem:

???????? ?? ????????? ????? ???????? ???? ?
???????????: ????? ????????? ??? ???? ???????
O Kr???a, we have been happily placed on the stage of your world. You, O
Kr???a, are blissful, and we are your particles on the earth.

???? ????? ??????????? ??? ? ?????????????? ?
??????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????? ???????
O Lord, it is all your planning as to where you have placed me, how you
have placed me, and the task in which you have engaged me.

???????? ? ?????? ? ???? ?? ?????? ?
???? ???????????????? ?????? ???? ????????????
I do not understand the purpose, nor your plan. All I know is that
propelled into this world I am an instrument of yours.

??? ?????? ?? ????? ????????? ?? ???? ?
???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????: ???????
O Kr???a, though the hands are mine, you are the doer, and though my feet
move, you are their mover.

??? ????? ??????? ???????????? ?? ?
? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????????: ???????
Let my mind wander from object to object. I have no worry, O Lord, since
you are the driver of the chariot of my mind.

????????????????? ????????? ????????? ?
????? ??????? ???? ???? ????????? ???? ???????
The wheels of the world turn just by a tiny portion of your compassion. So
if the chariot of my life moves ahead, what is so surprising?

???????????????????? ?????????? ?????? ?
???? ?? ??????? ?? ??????? ????????? ???????
Just by a glance of yours, O Lord, the lotus of my mind blooms. Let it ever
close up.

????????? ????????? ????????? ??????? ????? ?
?????? ???????, ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????
The gate of my mind is open and for a long time I am waiting for you. Come
quickly. O Friend, do not delay.

????? ?? ????????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?
????? ????? ????????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????
O Lord, many of my lives have gone by and so also of yours. O Kr???a, life
after life, I was your friend.

??? ???? ?? ??????????? ????? ?????????? ?
??? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???????
O M?dhava, your friend is waiting for your in the yard. O Lord, as you did
before, do your play today.

???????? ?? ???????? ???????? ??? ?? ?
????????????????? ????? ????? ??? ???????
O Kr???a, this is your stage, and I am M?dhava, your friend. Let our happy
and blissful game go on for ever.

??? ?????????????????? ?????????? ???????? ????????????? [?????????]
???????? ?
Thus ends the M?dhava?s Nectar for the Ears, in three hundred verses,
composed by Madhav Deshpande.


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue May 22 22:58:09 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 22 May 18 15:58:09 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Concluding_(=3F)_verses_of_my_M=C4=81dhavakarn=C4=81mr=CC=A5tam?=
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdp9j2O_b7Fts3qiUqZpryVNL7KQqXx=RXYghLzqNM4nA@mail.gmail.com>

Concluding (?) verses of my Krishna poem:

???????? ?? ????????? ????? ???????? ???? ?
???????????: ????? ????????? ??? ???? ???????
O Kr???a, we have been happily placed on the stage of your world. You, O
Kr???a, are blissful, and we are your particles on the earth.

???? ????? ??????????? ??? ? ?????????????? ?
??????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????? ???????
O Lord, it is all your planning as to where you have placed me, how you
have placed me, and the task in which you have engaged me.

???????? ? ?????? ? ???? ?? ?????? ?
???? ???????????????? ?????? ???? ????????????
I do not understand the purpose, nor your plan. All I know is that
propelled into this world I am an instrument of yours.

??? ?????? ?? ????? ????????? ?? ???? ?
???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????: ???????
O Kr???a, though the hands are mine, you are the doer, and though my feet
move, you are their mover.

??? ????? ??????? ???????????? ?? ?
? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????????: ???????
Let my mind wander from object to object. I have no worry, O Lord, since
you are the driver of the chariot of my mind.

????????????????? ????????? ????????? ?
????? ??????? ???? ???? ????????? ???? ???????
The wheels of the world turn just by a tiny portion of your compassion. So
if the chariot of my life moves ahead, what is so surprising?

???????????????????? ?????????? ?????? ?
???? ?? ??????? ?? ??????? ????????? ???????
Just by a glance of yours, O Lord, the lotus of my mind blooms. Let it
never close up.

????????? ????????? ????????? ??????? ????? ?
?????? ???????, ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????
The gate of my mind is open and for a long time I am waiting for you. Come
quickly. O Friend, do not delay.

????? ?? ????????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?
????? ????? ????????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????
O Lord, many of my lives have gone by and so also of yours. O Kr???a, life
after life, I was your friend.

??? ???? ?? ??????????? ????? ?????????? ?
??? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???????
O M?dhava, your friend is waiting for your in the yard. O Lord, as you did
before, do your play today.

???????? ?? ???????? ???????? ??? ?? ?
????????????????? ????? ????? ??? ???????
O Kr???a, this is your stage, and I am M?dhava, your friend. Let our happy
and blissful game go on for ever.

??? ?????????????????? ?????????? ???????? ????????????? [?????????]
???????? ?
Thus ends the M?dhava?s Nectar for the Ears, in three hundred verses,
composed by Madhav Deshpande.


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From paolo.magnone at unicatt.it  Wed May 23 17:24:10 2018
From: paolo.magnone at unicatt.it (Paolo Magnone)
Date: Wed, 23 May 18 19:24:10 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Renou=E2=80=99s_article_needed?=
In-Reply-To: <da04d930-76a6-ed0e-c039-417e25d46488@unicatt.it>
Message-ID: <79681a9d-b226-24d9-e1ff-d18e68ed049c@unicatt.it>

Friends,

Thanks to Frank Koehler for sending me a scan of the article. Thanks also to Vincent Eltschinger, Georges Pinault and Christophe Vielle for pointing out that the article is now available in L?Inde fondamentale, ed. by Charles Malamoud, Paris, Hermann, 1978, pp. 83-116 ? indeed easier to obtain than the original.

With best wishes,
Paolo

--
Paolo Magnone
Sanskrit Language and Literature
Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
Introduction to Hinduism
Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan

Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net<http://www.jambudvipa.net>)
Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone

On 21/05/2018 19:31, Paolo Magnone wrote:

Friends,

Would anybody be willing to share a copy of Renou?s (with Silburn) seminal study ?Sur la notion de brahman?, Journal Asiatique 237 (1949)? The old collection has seemingly been digitised only until 1940, nor do local libraries have a hard copy of the volume.

Thank you,

Paolo Magnone

--

Paolo Magnone
Sanskrit Language and Literature
Catholic University of the Sacred Heart - Milan
Introduction to Hinduism
Higher Institute of Religious Sciences - Milan

Jambudvipa  - Indology and Sanskrit Studies (www.jambudvipa.net<http://www.jambudvipa.net>)
Academia.edu: http://unicatt.academia.edu/PaoloMagnone





[http://Static.unicatt.it/layout/img/layout/5x1000.gif]
Destina il tuo 5 per mille all?Universit? Cattolica
CF 02133120150
www.unicatt.it/5permille<http://www.unicatt.it/5permille/>



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From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com  Thu May 24 05:38:19 2018
From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 11:08:19 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Guide to the Asokan inscriptions Allachin - Norman
Message-ID: <CAK2tbYxDzjQ3B09zQ4LwBgisNwLjMO8NHbP_+rn5KXRv=1-CYw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Members
Can you share the article Guide to the Asokan inscriptions published in the
South Asian Studies  Vol-I: 49-50
regards
Rupali Mokashi

*http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/* <http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/>


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From drdj at austin.utexas.edu  Thu May 24 16:27:44 2018
From: drdj at austin.utexas.edu (Donald R Davis)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 16:27:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil Language Lecturer
Message-ID: <646D6EA1-6B6D-473F-96B7-954D3CA6E485@austin.utexas.edu>

Dear Colleagues,

The University of Texas at Austin invites applications for a Tamil Language Lecturer. Please see the details below or at this link: https://apply.interfolio.com/50970.

Best,

Don Davis
Dept. of Asian Studies
University of Texas at Austin

Description
The Department of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin is seeking a full-time lecturer in the Tamil language and either Kannada or Telugu, to begin September 1st, 2018.  The successful candidate will be responsible for teaching three courses per semester; Tamil at the Elementary and Intermediate levels, plus a third course in Kannada or Telugu.  Located at the flagship campus of the University of Texas System, the Department of Asian Studies provides an excellent and exciting context for teaching and research in the classical and modern languages of the South Asian region.

Qualifications
Candidates should have a minimum of a Master?s degree (Ph.D. is preferred) in the Tamil language with additional teaching ability in either Kannada or Telugu, or in a closely-related field (for example, in Dravidian Linguistics or South Indian Literature) and a record of teaching excellence in the American university context.  The successful candidate will be required to complete the Federal Employment Eligibility Verification form, I-9, and will be required to present acceptable and original documents to prove identity and authorization to work in the United States.  The University of Texas at Austin is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer committed to a diverse faculty, staff, and student body.  Women and minority candidates are strongly encouraged to apply.

Application Instructions
Interested candidates are invited to upload: 1) a cover letter detailing qualifications and teaching experience, 2) a detailed curriculum vitae, and 3) three confidential letters of recommendation.  The deadline for applications is Friday, June 15th, 2018.  Please direct all questions to Ms. Lucy Enniss (enniss.lucy at austin.utexas.edu) with the words ?Tamil search? in the subject line.


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From whitakjl at wfu.edu  Thu May 24 20:07:26 2018
From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Jarrod Whitaker)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 16:07:26 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chandogya Brahmana
In-Reply-To: <mailman.44.1527177602.3504.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <38ea5db6-46ec-cd29-0db5-fcaf266f5489@wfu.edu>

Dear Colleagues:
Do we have a reliable text and/or translation of the Samaveda Mantra 
Brahmana/Chandogya Brahmana? I'm particularly interested in SMB.2.7, so 
any information on books or articles addressing this hymn would also be 
welcome. I'm struggling to find anything, but I may just be missing 
something obvious.

Cheers
JW

Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
Associate Professor,
Graduate Program Director,
Department for the Study of Religions.

Wake Forest University
P.O. Box 7212
Winston-Salem, NC 27109
whitakjl at wfu.edu
p 336.758.4162







From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu May 24 20:41:01 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 14:41:01 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ya=C5=9Bomitra?=
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcgjZCLk21XTwx4u7se5gQDiJjpTaf3ZeRufAD2obJrJg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I have been doing a literature search for biographical information about
Ya?omitra, author of the *Sphu??rth?* commentary on Vasubandhu's
*Abhidharmako?abh??ya* and the *vy?khy?* on Asa?ga's *Abhidharmasamuccaya*.
I am finding almost no information at all.  I see the date 580 in Potter's
EIP, but I don't know where he gets it.  I have looked in Poussin's,
Stcherbatsky, Law's introductions, in SARDS3 (several promising articles,
but I don't read Japanese :-( ), Panditproject, Google Scholar, etc.  While
his views and interpretations of the m?la texts get attention, I find no
discussion about his biographical information.

If you know of any scholarship specifically on Ya?omitra's personal
background, evidence for his date, place of dwelling, lineage, etc., I
would be very grateful for the information.  Is he the same Ya?omitra who
owned the so-called Bower MS, for example?

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca
??


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From dnreigle at gmail.com  Thu May 24 21:45:27 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 15:45:27 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Chandogya Brahmana
In-Reply-To: <38ea5db6-46ec-cd29-0db5-fcaf266f5489@wfu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbtAK5N-wf=h_S-va6AZcAw5oZiCJiP3Om4TQhBhVK6=A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jarrod,

As for a reliable text, there is the critical edition by Durgamohan
Bhattacharyya, *Ch?ndogyabr?hma?a, with the commentaries of Gu?avi??u and
S?ya?a*. It was published as Calcutta Sanskrit College Research Series, no.
1, in 1958. It is based on four printed editions and eleven manuscripts.

An English translation by Sakuntala Rao Sastri was published as
*The Mantra-*
*Brahmana (A book describing the earliest domestic rituals of Aryans)*, by
the Viswa Parishad, Sanskrit University - Japan, no date. It is a
typescript.

Upon checking OCLC for more recent publications, I now see that Sakuntala
Rao Sastri has also published a romanized critical edition of the*
Mantra-Brahmana*, but I have not seen this book.

There is an early Sanskrit edition that includes German translation in two
publications, one for each of its two prap??hakas: *Das Mantrabr?hma?a. 1.
Prap??haka*, by Heinrich St?nner, Halle: 1901. *Das Mantrabr?hma?a. 2.
Prap??haka*, by Hans J?rgensen, Darmstadt: 1911.

If you cannot easily access these books, I can scan my copies.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Jarrod Whitaker via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues:
> Do we have a reliable text and/or translation of the Samaveda Mantra
> Brahmana/Chandogya Brahmana? I'm particularly interested in SMB.2.7, so any
> information on books or articles addressing this hymn would also be
> welcome. I'm struggling to find anything, but I may just be missing
> something obvious.
>
> Cheers
> JW
>
> Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor,
> Graduate Program Director,
> Department for the Study of Religions.
>
> Wake Forest University
> P.O. Box 7212
> Winston-Salem, NC 27109
> whitakjl at wfu.edu
> p 336.758.4162
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu May 24 23:08:41 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 17:08:41 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Ya=C5=9Bomitra?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CcgjZCLk21XTwx4u7se5gQDiJjpTaf3ZeRufAD2obJrJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cfi_DyP2dzy0KBqFNRGaYTAD+km06uKfNp2zmH6S_kL9w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to Edeltraud Harzer, who set me on a track that led to Marek
Mejor's *Vasubandhu?s
Abhidharmako?a and the Commentaries Preserved in the **Tanjur*, Stuttgart:
Steiner, 1991.  Pp. 38 ff. are quenching my j??nat???? for the moment.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca
??



On Thu, 24 May 2018 at 14:41, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> I have been doing a literature search for biographical information about
> Ya?omitra, author of the *Sphu??rth?* commentary on Vasubandhu's
> *Abhidharmako?abh??ya* and the *vy?khy?* on Asa?ga's *Abhidharmasamuccaya*.
> I am finding almost no information at all.  I see the date 580 in Potter's
> EIP, but I don't know where he gets it.  I have looked in Poussin's,
> Stcherbatsky, Law's introductions, in SARDS3 (several promising articles,
> but I don't read Japanese :-( ), Panditproject, Google Scholar, etc.  While
> his views and interpretations of the m?la texts get attention, I find no
> discussion about his biographical information.
>
> If you know of any scholarship specifically on Ya?omitra's personal
> background, evidence for his date, place of dwelling, lineage, etc., I
> would be very grateful for the information.  Is he the same Ya?omitra who
> owned the so-called Bower MS, for example?
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> sas.ualberta.ca
> ??
>
>


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Fri May 25 00:10:44 2018
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Thu, 24 May 18 14:10:44 -1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Oxford_Bibliographies_in_Hinduism:_Jayadeva_and_the_G=C4=ABtagovinda?=
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEWQczH7=2ZqkoXOpQDsRiPiSOVy79ZAUuZjy2p8GCjgaA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends, I was just informed that my bibliography of 'Jayadeva and the
G?tagovinda' is up on the OUP 'Bibliographies in Hinduism' resource. I want
to thank everyone again--so many of you helped with so many precious
details about myriad translations and other materials. The real pleasure
for me in this thankless task was that of learning so much from you when I
submitted my queries.

If you would like to have a look, it is here:

http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0204.xml?rskey=KDHyEf&result=1&q=Jayadeva#firstMatch

As usual my own institution doesn't have access, but OUP gave me a secret
login id and password that will work for 6 months:

Username: OxAccess60518
Password: Jennings242

Best, ??????,J


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From slaje at kabelmail.de  Fri May 25 13:29:06 2018
From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje)
Date: Fri, 25 May 18 15:29:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Return of the Slave
Message-ID: <CALoZ1nWmj6o2H5XMgDjJPSrokovr9ZvhUsDbhJExeh-B8_OC6Q@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear list,

I should like to draw your attention to an upcoming workshop dealing with
slavery in the Middle East and on the Indian Subcontinent from the past up
to the present day.

Venue: Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur in Mainz (Germany)
Time: November 7-8, 2018

Here is a link for more details on the subject and for downloading the
preliminary program:
https://www.islamic-empire.uni-hamburg.de/en/news-and-
events/conferences/slavery.html

Kindly regarding,
Walter Slaje

-----------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar
Deutschland

Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor
studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum
non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam,
sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus
humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat.
Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII.


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From roccocestola at gmail.com  Sat May 26 17:37:57 2018
From: roccocestola at gmail.com (Rocco Cestola)
Date: Sat, 26 May 18 19:37:57 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Vij=C3=B1=C4=81n=C4=81m=E1=B9=9Btabh=C4=81=E1=B9=A3ya_Needed?=
Message-ID: <CAAfXwN39rTM_nYvsrfQN4L3-S+zr9MKciOdgoxob=H1eZTV6Ow@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear list members,

If anyone had a pdf of Vij??nabhik?u's *Vij??n?m?tabh??ya*, edited by
Kedaranatha Tripathi (Varanasi: Banaras Hindu University Press, 1979) ,
would be so kind to share
it with me?

many thanks in advance


with best wishes and regards



Rocco Cestola

PhD, Universit? di Roma "La Sapienza"


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From jknutson at hawaii.edu  Mon May 28 01:15:38 2018
From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson)
Date: Sun, 27 May 18 15:15:38 -1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_article_request:_Porcher_(1982)_"M=C3=A9taphore_et_Comparaison_dans_quelques_compos=C3=A9s_Sanskrits"?=
Message-ID: <CAAiVBEWQavrqBqvFqNb_LX-uT70K8bRZTnRCRgtE05hBLDeq+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends, Does anyone have a soft copy of?:

Porcher, M.C. (1982) "M?taphore et Comparaison dans quelques compos?s
Sanskrits" Journal Asiatique 270 (1-2), 153-171.

I only seem to have access to JA up to 1939 or so. Best,J
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Associate Professor of Sanskrit Language and Literature
Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
461 Spalding


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From davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it  Mon May 28 09:41:11 2018
From: davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it (David Pierdominici)
Date: Mon, 28 May 18 11:41:11 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF enquiry
Message-ID: <FDBDC88F-18EF-412D-B61A-97707C9F31D7@uniroma1.it>

Dear Indologists and list members,

does anyone have by chance a PDF copy of the Tamil Tiruvi?aiy??al pur??am to kindly share with me? On Internet Archive only the front cover of the edition is digitised.
Thanking in advance, my warmest regards

David Pierdominici Le?o
Ph.D., Sapienza University
Academia: https://uniroma1.academia.edu/DavidPierdominici
Mobile +39 3407303232
Skype: davidpaolo89


-- 
___________________________________________
*Il tuo?5?diventa 1000*
Fai 
crescere la tua universit?
Dona il?5?per?mille?alla Sapienza
Codice 
fiscale:?*80209930587*

https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-universita-con-il-cinque-mille 
<https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-universita-con-il-cinque-mille>



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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Mon May 28 17:25:23 2018
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Mon, 28 May 18 17:25:23 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Ramanuja
Message-ID: <1527528275.S.1103.27803.f4mail-235-81.rediffmail.com.1527528323.31347@webmail.rediffmail.com>



Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: "alakendu das"&lt;mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com&gt;
Sent: Mon, 28 May 2018 22:54:35 GMT+0530
To: "INDOLOGY"&lt;INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk&gt;
Subject: Ramanuja

To all members,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Can anybody kindly inform me about any English version of Ramanuja's VishistaAdwaitya?
&nbsp; &nbsp; Alakendu Das.



Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




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From Palaniappa at aol.com  Mon May 28 23:08:59 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 28 May 18 18:08:59 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF enquiry
In-Reply-To: <FDBDC88F-18EF-412D-B61A-97707C9F31D7@uniroma1.it>
Message-ID: <56119A62-CB49-454B-8D8B-2557A018472A@aol.com>

This is not a pdf. But the text is available here in a Unicode-compliant format.

http://www.tamilvu.org/ta/library-l41d0-html-l41d0ind-139511 <http://www.tamilvu.org/ta/library-l41d0-html-l41d0ind-139511> 

Regards,
Palaniappan

> On May 28, 2018, at 4:41 AM, David Pierdominici via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Indologists and list members,
> 
> does anyone have by chance a PDF copy of the Tamil Tiruvi?aiy??al pur??am to kindly share with me? On Internet Archive only the front cover of the edition is digitised.
> Thanking in advance, my warmest regards
> 
> David Pierdominici Le?o
> Ph.D., Sapienza University
> Academia: https://uniroma1.academia.edu/DavidPierdominici <https://uniroma1.academia.edu/DavidPierdominici>
> Mobile +39 3407303232
> Skype: davidpaolo89
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________
> Il tuo 5 diventa 1000
> Fai crescere la tua universit?
> Dona il 5 per mille alla Sapienza
> Codice fiscale: 80209930587
> https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-universita-con-il-cinque-mille <https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-universita-con-il-cinque-mille>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue May 29 07:43:10 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 29 May 18 09:43:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Post-doc and PhD positions in Buddhist Studies in Leiden
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4Kta_Era-_2A0VM=B+-9Bup-BGOgDhR6EtBYVhuKz0WPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues
May I ask you to bring to the attention of all who might be interested, or
who might know someone who might be interested, a Post-doc position, and
two PhD positions in Buddhist Studies in Leiden?

https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/vacancies/2018/wk11-20/18-199-postdoctoral-researcher-in-buddhist-studies

https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/vacancies/2018/wk11-20/18-200-phd-candidate-in-buddhist-studies

Thank you!

Jonathan Silk

-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From manufrancis at gmail.com  Tue May 29 08:43:53 2018
From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis)
Date: Tue, 29 May 18 10:43:53 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF enquiry
In-Reply-To: <56119A62-CB49-454B-8D8B-2557A018472A@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CANVHsm53VNfzDRGuF10nvZW8hcqRP2Jyi9EZ9rVCBdZ-+duZ9w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear David,

There are two Tamil Tiruvi?aiy??a?pur??am:
- one by Perumpa???ppuliy?r Nampi (12e/13e c.?)
- one by Para?c?ti (16e/17e c.?)

Here are PDFs of both:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/werygroc21tw5yj/AACTNQ1yPbyd5mmV8hojBI7va?dl=0

With very best wishes.

--



Emmanuel Francis
Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR
8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris)
http://ceias.ehess.fr/
http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725
http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/
Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950,
Universit?t Hamburg)
http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html
https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis

2018-05-29 1:08 GMT+02:00 Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> This is not a pdf. But the text is available here in a Unicode-compliant
> format.
>
> http://www.tamilvu.org/ta/library-l41d0-html-l41d0ind-139511
>
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
>
> On May 28, 2018, at 4:41 AM, David Pierdominici via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Indologists and list members,
>
> does anyone have by chance a PDF copy of the Tamil Tiruvi?aiy??al pur??am
> to kindly share with me? On Internet Archive only the front cover of the
> edition is digitised.
> Thanking in advance, my warmest regards
>
> David Pierdominici Le?o
> Ph.D., Sapienza University
> Academia: https://uniroma1.academia.edu/DavidPierdominici
> Mobile +39 3407303232
> Skype: davidpaolo89
>
>
> ___________________________________________
> *Il tuo 5 diventa 1000*
> Fai crescere la tua universit?
> Dona il 5 per mille alla Sapienza
> Codice fiscale: *80209930587*
> https://www.uniroma1.it/it/pagina/fai-crescere-la-tua-univer
> sita-con-il-cinque-mille
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com  Tue May 29 09:58:16 2018
From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul)
Date: Tue, 29 May 18 15:28:16 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Teaching Positions available in the Abhinavagupta Institute of Aesthetics and Shaiva Philosophy
Message-ID: <CAJz4T_78rHM0v0aB39G1pDrt_=VpUi85LKaFu=pNfmzpNW2v2g@mail.gmail.com>

The
? ?
historic
? *?*
*?Abhinavagupta Institute of Aesthetics and Shaiva Philosophy*
? ?
at
? ?
the University of Lucknow established by Professor Kanti Chandra Pandey on
August 5, 1968, after being defunct due to retirement of teachers
specializing in the subject and dearth of suitable candidates for the job
? ?
for many decades, has got a new lease of life. Prof Pandey founded the
institute by donating his personal collection of books and works to the
library and with the help of government grant to promote quality research
in aesthetics and Shaiva philosophy.
? ?
The institute is starting afresh and has advertised several teaching
positions. The application deadline is *7.06.2018*. All those interested
may apply. See the more details and the application
? ?
process
? ?
following the following link:

http://www.lkouniv.ac.in/en/page/current-openings

Best wishes.

Mrinal Kaul
------
Mrinal Kaul, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor - Manipal Centre for Philosophy and Humanities (MCPH)
Coordinator - Centre for Religious Studies (CRS)
Dr TMA Pai Planetarium Complex
Alevoor Road, Manipal 576 104
Karnataka, INDIA
Tel +91-820-29-23567 Extn: 23567
https://iuo.academia.edu/MrinalKaul
email: mrinal.kaul at manipal.edu


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Tue May 29 15:03:55 2018
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Tue, 29 May 18 15:03:55 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ramanuja
Message-ID: <20180529150355.24951.qmail@f4mail-235-81.rediffmail.com>


Thanks everybody for the help.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Alakendu Das.


Sent from RediffmailNG on Android


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From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Wed May 30 00:53:57 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 29 May 18 20:53:57 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help identifying the deity of a gayatri mantra
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHFy9dum+3Oikn=Y-179_sHXm80zqyq2Opzj39d8KxMqA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
The Vaikhanasamantraprasna contains this gayatri mantra
r?jar?j?ya vidmahe
dhan?dhyak?y?ya dh?mahi
tan nas soma? pracoday?t

Monier-Williams identifies dhan?dhyak?ya as Kubera.
Is this a gayatri mantra to Kubera or to Soma as the moon, or to the elixir
Soma?

Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed May 30 01:19:56 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 30 May 18 06:49:56 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help identifying the deity of a gayatri mantra
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHFy9dum+3Oikn=Y-179_sHXm80zqyq2Opzj39d8KxMqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZX3qeE1Ne10UGskQJe6RYf4nADkT5jx2EDuXzQQAUS9g@mail.gmail.com>

Kubera

Raajaraaja / raajaadhiraaja is used as a synonym for kubera in mantrapushpa
? ??????????? ????????????? ??? ??? ????????? ????????
? ?? ?????????????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ??????
??????? ????????? ???????? ??? ? 2 ?







On Wed, May 30, 2018, 6:24 AM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
> The Vaikhanasamantraprasna contains this gayatri mantra
> r?jar?j?ya vidmahe
> dhan?dhyak?y?ya dh?mahi
> tan nas soma? pracoday?t
>
> Monier-Williams identifies dhan?dhyak?ya as Kubera.
> Is this a gayatri mantra to Kubera or to Soma as the moon, or to the
> elixir Soma?
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Wed May 30 16:52:10 2018
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Wed, 30 May 18 18:52:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
Message-ID: <11AE589A-2866-42CA-91FA-7A54FDA5410E@uclouvain.be>

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com  Wed May 30 17:46:00 2018
From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani)
Date: Wed, 30 May 18 13:46:00 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP: American Journal of Indic Studies deadline: Sep 9
Message-ID: <F354637F-D1E2-4AB8-B1A4-3E7319BDBC7B@gmail.com>

Dear Esteemed Colleagues, 
Inviting you all to send your papers for consideration for publication in the AJIS.
Deadline: September 9, 2018.

Please check the Call for Papers for the Winter issue of American Journal of Indic Studies 
https://journals.library.unt.edu/index.php/indicstudies/about

Please register on the journal website included in the link above. Papers can be submitted directly on the journal website. 

Please do not hesitate to contact me if there are any additional questions. 

Thank you. 
Lavanya 

Lavanya Vemsani 
Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
Shawnee State University 
Portsmouth OH 45662
Phone: 740-351-3233
Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies 
Editor-in-Chief 
American Journal of Indic Studies


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From jeb2104 at columbia.edu  Wed May 30 22:29:22 2018
From: jeb2104 at columbia.edu (Joel Eugene Bordeaux)
Date: Wed, 30 May 18 18:29:22 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help identifying the deity of a gayatri mantra
In-Reply-To: <mailman.36.1527696002.8916.indology_list.indology.info@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <06B196A9-1444-49C1-86C6-EDB9ECF2443D@columbia.edu>

While we?re at it, does anyone know of sources exploring the theoretical basis for or historical development of these ?gayatris?? 

For example, in what sense is the mantra below a ?gayatri? beyond containing the verbs dh?mahi and pracoday?t? Is there any relation postulated between the 'gayatris' of Kubera etc. and Gayatri as a goddess? 

 With thanks,
J.


Joel Bordeaux
Visiting Scholar
Mattoo Center for India Studies
Stony Brook University
bordeauxjoel at gmail.com
twitter.com/JoelBordeaux


> The Vaikhanasamantraprasna contains this gayatri mantra
> r?jar?j?ya vidmahe 
> dhan?dhyak?y?ya dh?mahi 
> tan nas soma? pracoday?t
> 
> Monier-Williams identifies dhan?dhyak?ya as Kubera.
> Is this a gayatri mantra to Kubera or to Soma as the moon, or to the elixir Soma?



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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu May 31 01:19:08 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 31 May 18 06:49:08 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help identifying the deity of a gayatri mantra
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHu=+UOK92mWKEg21XeaWYfT+a_htFwgHzLfPeu1oXQfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb29cQpcUxYjUHLghUo2xfdkgALP7J-79=OGf=mMH4Q=g@mail.gmail.com>

There was a thread on this list on this. I am travelling. Please search in
the archives.

The point is, these Gaayatris have no relation to the 'goddess' Gaayayree.

But the Gaayatree mantra is the prototype (maataa) after which these are
'generated'.



On Thu, May 31, 2018, 6:08 AM Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you Nagaraj
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 9:19 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Kubera
>>
>> Raajaraaja / raajaadhiraaja is used as a synonym for kubera in
>> mantrapushpa
>> ? ??????????? ????????????? ??? ??? ????????? ????????
>> ? ?? ?????????????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ??????
>> ??????? ????????? ???????? ??? ? 2 ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 30, 2018, 6:24 AM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear list members,
>>> The Vaikhanasamantraprasna contains this gayatri mantra
>>> r?jar?j?ya vidmahe
>>> dhan?dhyak?y?ya dh?mahi
>>> tan nas soma? pracoday?t
>>>
>>> Monier-Williams identifies dhan?dhyak?ya as Kubera.
>>> Is this a gayatri mantra to Kubera or to Soma as the moon, or to the
>>> elixir Soma?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Harry Spier
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Thu May 31 11:00:12 2018
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Thu, 31 May 18 11:00:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
Message-ID: <1527764217.S.98067.autosave.drafts.1527764412.11522@webmail.rediffmail.com>

Thank you very much for highlighting such an encouraging piece of event.It's heartening indeed to know the esteem with which Sanskrit is held in the West.
Alakendu Das.

Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Wed, 30 May 2018 22:23:05 GMT+0530
To: Indology &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA

  https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle
Louvain-la-Neuve




  
_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)

http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From franco at uni-leipzig.de  Thu May 31 11:09:31 2018
From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco)
Date: Thu, 31 May 18 13:09:31 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
In-Reply-To: <1527764217.S.98067.autosave.drafts.1527764412.11522@webmail.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180531130931.Horde.y9gSuzSdx74iTm76XyuRVzW@mail.uni-leipzig.de>


That article was a bit one-sided. Here is a response from one of  
Granoff's students:

LETTER 04.19
The Yale Daily News	Apr 18, 2018

On ?Yale?s last Sanskrit expert to leave?

?Yale?s last Sanskrit expert to leave? is plain wrong. In order to be  
right it minimizes the work of Phyllis Granoff, a religious studies  
professor, to the point of erasure. Far beyond ?proficient,? Granoff?s  
linguistic mastery is legendary among Sanskritists worldwide. At Yale  
she revived premodern South Asia and continues to train a vital cohort  
of scholars.

The article seems too busy lamenting the loss of Yale?s historic  
?reputation? in Sanskrit to ask: Why has Salisbury?s chair sat vacant  
since Stanley Insler?s retirement some seven years ago? A question for  
Linguistics, not Religious Studies. Inaugurated for Sanskrit and  
Arabic, this chair won fame through William Dwight Whitney, when  
rededicated to Sanskrit and Comparative Philology in 1869.  
Accordingly, for nearly five decades, Insler taught Sanskrit within  
the comparative study of languages ? from proto-Indo-European to Old  
Norse. Currently, Linguistics has turned from this  
philological-historical project to a presentist, computational model,  
reflecting broader shifts in that field. Even if the department  
enthusiastically pursued his replacement, it would struggle to find a  
scholar today with Insler?s skills.

If we want Sanskrit to continue at Yale, we had better spend more time  
getting our arguments straight rather than courting disparagement from  
non-Yale faculty members whose mansplaining comments are best not  
given published validation.

Sanskrit succeeds as a site of comparative interest. In Granoff?s  
hands, it?s but one of many languages for art, ritual, narrative and  
philosophy. To that extent to call her ? or Insler ?a ?mere?  
Sanskrititst would be a disservice. That is exactly why Sanskrit has  
thrived at Yale in their care.

Marko Geslani, GRD ?1




Zitat von alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> Thank you very much for highlighting such an encouraging piece of  
> event.It's heartening indeed to know the esteem with which Sanskrit  
> is held in the West.
> Alakendu Das.
>
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>
>
>
>
> From: Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
> Sent: Wed, 30 May 2018 22:23:05 GMT+0530
> To: Indology &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
>
>    
> https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/
>
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> INDOLOGY mailing list
>
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>
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> options or unsubscribe)


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148







From kauzeya at gmail.com  Thu May 31 11:29:04 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Thu, 31 May 18 13:29:04 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
In-Reply-To: <20180531130931.Horde.y9gSuzSdx74iTm76XyuRVzW@mail.uni-leipzig.de>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+=9S5842uHjNwhCzzzhiPdMU6OuresqCHR3aQEZs=kYw@mail.gmail.com>

It is perhaps not reasonable to enter into this question here, but:
insofar as any scholar has his or her own skill set and range of interests,
it is obviously true that "Even if the department enthusiastically pursued
his replacement, it would struggle to find a scholar today with Insler?s
skills." But only if that is understood to mean an exact or very close
match for Insler's skills. For there are more than a few Sanskritists with
excellent broad knowledge of Indo-European, general linguistics, Vedic etc.
and more than one of these scholars, I am quite sure, would be delighted to
apply for a chair at Yale. So it is a pity that Marko Geslani chose to
express the matter in this way. (None of this should be understood to be
any criticism of Prof Granoff, by the way; I was also more than a little
surprised to see that her almost superhuman knowledge of Indic languages
was ignored...)

JAS

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> That article was a bit one-sided. Here is a response from one of Granoff's
> students:
>
> LETTER 04.19
> The Yale Daily News     Apr 18, 2018
>
> On ?Yale?s last Sanskrit expert to leave?
>
> ?Yale?s last Sanskrit expert to leave? is plain wrong. In order to be
> right it minimizes the work of Phyllis Granoff, a religious studies
> professor, to the point of erasure. Far beyond ?proficient,? Granoff?s
> linguistic mastery is legendary among Sanskritists worldwide. At Yale she
> revived premodern South Asia and continues to train a vital cohort of
> scholars.
>
> The article seems too busy lamenting the loss of Yale?s historic
> ?reputation? in Sanskrit to ask: Why has Salisbury?s chair sat vacant since
> Stanley Insler?s retirement some seven years ago? A question for
> Linguistics, not Religious Studies. Inaugurated for Sanskrit and Arabic,
> this chair won fame through William Dwight Whitney, when rededicated to
> Sanskrit and Comparative Philology in 1869. Accordingly, for nearly five
> decades, Insler taught Sanskrit within the comparative study of languages ?
> from proto-Indo-European to Old Norse. Currently, Linguistics has turned
> from this philological-historical project to a presentist, computational
> model, reflecting broader shifts in that field. Even if the department
> enthusiastically pursued his replacement, it would struggle to find a
> scholar today with Insler?s skills.
>
> If we want Sanskrit to continue at Yale, we had better spend more time
> getting our arguments straight rather than courting disparagement from
> non-Yale faculty members whose mansplaining comments are best not given
> published validation.
>
> Sanskrit succeeds as a site of comparative interest. In Granoff?s hands,
> it?s but one of many languages for art, ritual, narrative and philosophy.
> To that extent to call her ? or Insler ?a ?mere? Sanskrititst would be a
> disservice. That is exactly why Sanskrit has thrived at Yale in their care.
>
> Marko Geslani, GRD ?1
>
>
>
>
> Zitat von alakendu das via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>
> Thank you very much for highlighting such an encouraging piece of
>> event.It's heartening indeed to know the esteem with which Sanskrit is held
>> in the West.
>> Alakendu Das.
>>
>> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
>> Sent: Wed, 30 May 2018 22:23:05 GMT+0530
>> To: Indology &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
>> Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
>>
>>   https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskri
>> t-expert-to-leave/
>>
>> ???????????????????
>> Christophe Vielle
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>>
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
> Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
> Schillerstr. 6
> 04109 Leipzig
>
> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
> Fax +49 341 9737 148
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From hermantull at gmail.com  Thu May 31 14:38:08 2018
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Thu, 31 May 18 10:38:08 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
In-Reply-To: <11AE589A-2866-42CA-91FA-7A54FDA5410E@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNisnb7iy4Li+3uQS7JSgZLFgLnzwitwic4XQ44YTo568w@mail.gmail.com>

For those interested, Salisbury, who founded Sanskrit studies at Yale, was
recently "rediscovered,", and there is some fascinating information about
his program of "Oriental Studies" at Yale.

https://salisbury175.yale.edu/news/yale-marks-175th-anniversary-arabic-and-islamic-studies-exhibit-public-events

Among the many interesting tidbits was that Salisbury, by his own
admission, was not much of a Sanskritist (or, much of a teacher), and had
only two Sanskrit students (none in Arabic, which he seems to have known).
One of his two students was W. D. Whitney. Whitney, went on to study in
Germany, and then was appointed at Yale through Salisbury's generosity.
Salisbury, who died around 1900, is said to have left an endowment valued
at $130,000 in 19th c. dollars. Assuming it was all in cash (and it likely
was not), that would today be an endowment of $3.5 million (US). Certainly
enough to maintain Sanskrit at Yale!

Herman Tull
Princeton, NJ



On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:53 PM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

>
> https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/
>
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Thu May 31 15:16:19 2018
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Thu, 31 May 18 17:16:19 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
In-Reply-To: <CAFdBLNisnb7iy4Li+3uQS7JSgZLFgLnzwitwic4XQ44YTo568w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D2C3030-B12E-4D8B-BF15-5C019133C9CF@uclouvain.be>

Note here the very useful on-line tool offered by Klaus Karttunen:

http://whowaswho-indology.info

So for Salisbury:
http://whowaswho-indology.info/5599/salisbury-edward-elbridge/

A near contemporary of Salisbury, also expert both in Arabic (that he studied with two disciples of de Sacy) and Sanskrit (learned in Bonn with Lassen), was the Swiss (from Geneva) Charles Rieu (1820-1902), who became Professor of Arabic in Cambridge. 
http://whowaswho-indology.info/5212/rieu-charles-pierre-henri/
(his obituary in JRAS 1902 is available here:     https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S0035869X00029737 <https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S0035869X00029737> )

> Le 31 mai 2018 ? 16:38, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> 
> For those interested, Salisbury, who founded Sanskrit studies at Yale, was recently "rediscovered,", and there is some fascinating information about his program of "Oriental Studies" at Yale. 
> 
> https://salisbury175.yale.edu/news/yale-marks-175th-anniversary-arabic-and-islamic-studies-exhibit-public-events <https://salisbury175.yale.edu/news/yale-marks-175th-anniversary-arabic-and-islamic-studies-exhibit-public-events>
> 
> Among the many interesting tidbits was that Salisbury, by his own admission, was not much of a Sanskritist (or, much of a teacher), and had only two Sanskrit students (none in Arabic, which he seems to have known). One of his two students was W. D. Whitney. Whitney, went on to study in Germany, and then was appointed at Yale through Salisbury's generosity. Salisbury, who died around 1900, is said to have left an endowment valued at $130,000 in 19th c. dollars. Assuming it was all in cash (and it likely was not), that would today be an endowment of $3.5 million (US). Certainly enough to maintain Sanskrit at Yale!
> 
> Herman Tull
> Princeton, NJ
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:53 PM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/ <https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/>
> 
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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