From rah2k at virginia.edu  Fri Jun  1 18:50:16 2018
From: rah2k at virginia.edu (Hueckstedt, Robert A. (rah2k))
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 18 18:50:16 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
In-Reply-To: <4D2C3030-B12E-4D8B-BF15-5C019133C9CF@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <BN6PR13MB11722B4E62691B141E827C8E87620@BN6PR13MB1172.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>

I may be getting a little off topic here, but perhaps the first female to study Sanskrit in the US did so at Yale, or at least under Whitney, perhaps privately. (Did Yale accept women at this time?) The woman?s name is Caroline Fitzgerald. She studied under Whitney in 1884-85, thereabouts, at the age of 19-20, and she was a Corporate Member of the American Oriental Society in 1886. She also corresponded with Lanman. There may be more about her in the AOS Library at Yale. Edward Burne-Jones painted a portrait of her, now in the Art Gallery of Ontario, in Toronto.

Bob Hueckstedt


From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 11:16 AM
To: Herman Tull <hermantull at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA

Note here the very useful on-line tool offered by Klaus Karttunen:

http://whowaswho-indology.info

So for Salisbury:
http://whowaswho-indology.info/5599/salisbury-edward-elbridge/

A near contemporary of Salisbury, also expert both in Arabic (that he studied with two disciples of de Sacy) and Sanskrit (learned in Bonn with Lassen), was the Swiss (from Geneva) Charles Rieu (1820-1902), who became Professor of Arabic in Cambridge.
http://whowaswho-indology.info/5212/rieu-charles-pierre-henri/
(his obituary in JRAS 1902 is available here:     https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S0035869X00029737 )

Le 31 mai 2018 ? 16:38, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

For those interested, Salisbury, who founded Sanskrit studies at Yale, was recently "rediscovered,", and there is some fascinating information about his program of "Oriental Studies" at Yale.

https://salisbury175.yale.edu/news/yale-marks-175th-anniversary-arabic-and-islamic-studies-exhibit-public-events

Among the many interesting tidbits was that Salisbury, by his own admission, was not much of a Sanskritist (or, much of a teacher), and had only two Sanskrit students (none in Arabic, which he seems to have known). One of his two students was W. D. Whitney. Whitney, went on to study in Germany, and then was appointed at Yale through Salisbury's generosity. Salisbury, who died around 1900, is said to have left an endowment valued at $130,000 in 19th c. dollars. Assuming it was all in cash (and it likely was not), that would today be an endowment of $3.5 million (US). Certainly enough to maintain Sanskrit at Yale!

Herman Tull
Princeton, NJ



On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:53 PM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180601/37969b3a/attachment.htm>

From LubinT at wlu.edu  Fri Jun  1 20:59:50 2018
From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 18 20:59:50 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA
In-Reply-To: <BN6PR13MB11722B4E62691B141E827C8E87620@BN6PR13MB1172.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <D737292A.57380%lubint@wlu.edu>

Caroline Fitzgerald, as a member of the AOS, sounds perhaps more accomplished, but an even earlier instance of a woman studying Sanskrit in the U.S. appears to have been one Jessie Hainning, an interesting character in her own right who took lessons from the then president of Washington College (my employer) in the 1850s.  This tantalizing bit of information comes from:
https://books.google.com/books?id=vfR2AAAAMAAJ&q=Sanskrit+Lexington+Junkin&dq=Sanskrit+Lexington+Junkin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ugnKUMacHMjr0QGOl4GQAg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA
(Stonewall Jackson: The Man, the Soldier, the Legend, by James I. Robertson, Macmillan, 1997, p. 173)

On Junkin:
http://home.wlu.edu/%7Elubint/SanskritatWLU.htm  (see the bottom of the page) and in more detail (but with no mention of Sanskrit):
http://www.frontierfamilies.net/family/junkin/family/C7GJ.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=IS12qilW6wIC

Best,

Tim Lubin

Timothy Lubin
Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
Chair of the Department of Religion
Chair of the Middle East and South Asia Studies Program
204 Tucker Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, Virginia 24450

http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint
https://hcommons.org/members/lubin
http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949



From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: "Hueckstedt, Robert A. (rah2k)" <rah2k at virginia.edu<mailto:rah2k at virginia.edu>>
Date: Friday, June 1, 2018 at 2:50 PM
To: INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA

I may be getting a little off topic here, but perhaps the first female to study Sanskrit in the US did so at Yale, or at least under Whitney, perhaps privately. (Did Yale accept women at this time?) The woman?s name is Caroline Fitzgerald. She studied under Whitney in 1884-85, thereabouts, at the age of 19-20, and she was a Corporate Member of the American Oriental Society in 1886. She also corresponded with Lanman. There may be more about her in the AOS Library at Yale. Edward Burne-Jones painted a portrait of her, now in the Art Gallery of Ontario, in Toronto.

Bob Hueckstedt


From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] On Behalf Of Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 11:16 AM
To: Herman Tull <hermantull at gmail.com<mailto:hermantull at gmail.com>>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On Sanskrit in the USA

Note here the very useful on-line tool offered by Klaus Karttunen:

http://whowaswho-indology.info

So for Salisbury:
http://whowaswho-indology.info/5599/salisbury-edward-elbridge/

A near contemporary of Salisbury, also expert both in Arabic (that he studied with two disciples of de Sacy) and Sanskrit (learned in Bonn with Lassen), was the Swiss (from Geneva) Charles Rieu (1820-1902), who became Professor of Arabic in Cambridge.
http://whowaswho-indology.info/5212/rieu-charles-pierre-henri/
(his obituary in JRAS 1902 is available here:     https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S0035869X00029737 )

Le 31 mai 2018 ? 16:38, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

For those interested, Salisbury, who founded Sanskrit studies at Yale, was recently "rediscovered,", and there is some fascinating information about his program of "Oriental Studies" at Yale.

https://salisbury175.yale.edu/news/yale-marks-175th-anniversary-arabic-and-islamic-studies-exhibit-public-events

Among the many interesting tidbits was that Salisbury, by his own admission, was not much of a Sanskritist (or, much of a teacher), and had only two Sanskrit students (none in Arabic, which he seems to have known). One of his two students was W. D. Whitney. Whitney, went on to study in Germany, and then was appointed at Yale through Salisbury's generosity. Salisbury, who died around 1900, is said to have left an endowment valued at $130,000 in 19th c. dollars. Assuming it was all in cash (and it likely was not), that would today be an endowment of $3.5 million (US). Certainly enough to maintain Sanskrit at Yale!

Herman Tull
Princeton, NJ



On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:53 PM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/04/17/yales-last-sanskrit-expert-to-leave/

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180601/f090ac3d/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun  2 00:51:57 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 18 17:51:57 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Emeritus
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzetvVq4eueWD9XWXDGMwkQNczbv60G41d6Ab7rPGN7qiw@mail.gmail.com>

June 1 was the beginning of my retirment from the University of Michigan. I
have been informed by my department that from now on my status as
"Professor Emeritus" has been officially approved by the University of
Michigan. I just returned to San Francisco from a week in London, and
during the 11 hour flight I composed 35 new Krishna verses. Will put them
up once I get to translating them.

Madhav Deshpande


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180601/f77a8ca8/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun  2 00:54:31 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 18 17:54:31 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Emeritus
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfr9C=jbFycHA1-_37zwktx6-hvBgyX_FVOiJvZBgW-0g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

June 1 was the beginning of my retirement from the University of Michigan.
I have been informed by my department that from now on my status as
"Professor Emeritus" has been officially approved by the University of
Michigan. I just returned to San Francisco from a week in London, and
during the 11 hour flight I composed 35 new Krishna verses. Will put them
up once I get to translating them.

Madhav Deshpande


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180601/f49b40bc/attachment.htm>

From jemhouben at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 08:05:25 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 10:05:25 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor Emeritus
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzetvVq4eueWD9XWXDGMwkQNczbv60G41d6Ab7rPGN7qiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBtZX+jbxGNoeO_1n9YzWb5NAVaoogsO+=Z586L9F8QGA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Madhav,
Congratulations on acquiring this new status and we look forward to seeing
your new Madhava Krishna verses !
Jan Houben

On 2 June 2018 at 02:51, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> June 1 was the beginning of my retirment from the University of Michigan.
> I have been informed by my department that from now on my status as
> "Professor Emeritus" has been officially approved by the University of
> Michigan. I just returned to San Francisco from a week in London, and
> during the 11 hour flight I composed 35 new Krishna verses. Will put them
> up once I get to translating them.
>
> Madhav Deshpande
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/585aba34/attachment.htm>

From toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk  Sun Jun  3 08:09:49 2018
From: toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 08:09:49 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <5795C36D-D57A-4313-A720-6B989E446868@hum.ku.dk>

Dear Professor Deshpande,

First of all, congratulations on your new status as Professor Emeritus. That?s wonderful. Additionally, I?d like to express my appreciation for the verses on Kr???a you?ve been posting on the Indology list. It?s a pleasure reading them.

With all best wishes,
Toke

-----
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen, Ph.D.

Associate Professor and Marie Sk?odowska-Curie Fellow
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen

<toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk>




From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 13:10:22 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 09:10:22 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFSR=AEzmjz+HyeGPVvGBqaReF0OEzeORjFgKO4V+=13Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

Can someone give the etymology of mukunda?

Is the information in Monier-Williams under "muku" a folk-etymology?
muku = mukti (a word formed to explain mukun-da as "giver of liberation")

Thanks,
Harry Spier


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/6fac624c/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun  3 13:28:35 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 06:28:35 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdMwV=jvUfXRiUUmFLk1bFKMM3NCwLFb=cxvsAkHbqL8g@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

???????? ???: ????? ?????? ???? ?

???????? ?????? ?? ?????, ???? ????? ?? ???? ???????

O M?dhava, you are the creator of this world, of everything that moves and
does not move.  No one else created me.  How could I have Karma?


??????? ?? ????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?

???? ???? ????, ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???????

Whatever Karma is mine, it is all that you made me do.  Let all that Karma
be yours, and so its fruits also be yours.


???? ????????? ????????? ???????????? ?

???? ?? ????????: ???????? ?? ???? ????: ???????

I am just your hand, and was made to do what you desired.  How could I have
a bondage of Karma?  This is the doubt in my heart.


????: ???: ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?

????????? ?????????? ???? ??????? ???? ???????

O Lord, you do all your work with your own hands.  O M?dhava, then why do
you bind them with Karma for no reason?


?????? ?????? ??????? ???????????? ?? ??? ?

?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???????? ???????

Binding your own hand, if you then free it, what sort of a game is this?  Or
is this some entertainment of your mind?


? ?? ????? ? ?? ?????? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?

?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???????? ????? ???????

If I have no Karma whatsoever, then I neither have bondage nor a
release.  Don?t
waste your efforts in freeing someone who is already free.


???? ??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ?

??????? ??????? ?? ?? ???????????????? ???? ???????

O Lord, sleep peacefully on your bed of the cosmic snake.  O M?dhava, let
your sleep not be disturbed by worries about us.


???? ?? ????? ???? ??????????? ??????? ?

?? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ????????? ???????

O K???a, like the sky you envelope everything in the world.  O Delight of
Nanda, we live embraced by your love.


??? ???? ?????????? ??????????? ??????: ?

????? ??? ??????????????? ???????????: ???????

Even the wise are confused about what to do and not to do.  We, the
ignorant ones, were indeed enlightened by you with your own words [in the
Bhagavad-Gita].


?? ???? ?? ????? ????????? ?????????? ?

???????????? ??????? ????????????? ?? ???????

Let your effort to enlighten us not be fruitless.  O Lord, even the great
Arjuna later forgot your words.

Madhav Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/3141a086/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun  3 13:36:42 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 06:36:42 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFSR=AEzmjz+HyeGPVvGBqaReF0OEzeORjFgKO4V+=13Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdj=DzM4n-GuD+a-jtTmcKAWDf6w77zbyTfkbvoZUyXBQ@mail.gmail.com>

I was under the impression that words like Mukunda, Aravinda, Maranda,
Mucakunda were historically of non-Indo-European origin.  Did Michael
Witzel write something about such words?  Trying to remember.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> Can someone give the etymology of mukunda?
>
> Is the information in Monier-Williams under "muku" a folk-etymology?
> muku = mukti (a word formed to explain mukun-da as "giver of liberation")
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/3587be2e/attachment.htm>

From Palaniappa at aol.com  Sun Jun  3 14:44:41 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 09:44:41 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Philology and Network Science
Message-ID: <51D2118F-B8AB-4F87-8AD9-558B726FD3FC@aol.com>

I thought the attached excerpt from an article published in the Penn Engineer magazine issue of Spring 2018 may be of interest to the members. 

Regards,
Palaniappan
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PhilologyandNetworkScienceBW.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 468334 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/2b7dc94e/attachment.pdf>

From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 15:06:16 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 11:06:16 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdj=DzM4n-GuD+a-jtTmcKAWDf6w77zbyTfkbvoZUyXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQFpX1Mb=wYifCk3S0cEhZZeY6sAx7cQNFYdyctLYrg3Bg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Madhav,

You mention aravinda as possibly non-indo-european.  Does that also apply
to govinda?
Monier-Williams has govinda as go-vinda with vinda ifc as "finding".  But I
vaguely recall (though I can't find it anymore) that MacDonells or Whitneys
grammar   had a footnote somewhere that the etymology of govinda was
uncertain and that it might be from go+indra through the prakrit.

Harry Spier

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> I was under the impression that words like Mukunda, Aravinda, Maranda,
> Mucakunda were historically of non-Indo-European origin.  Did Michael
> Witzel write something about such words?  Trying to remember.  Best,
>
> Madhav Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> Can someone give the etymology of mukunda?
>>
>> Is the information in Monier-Williams under "muku" a folk-etymology?
>> muku = mukti (a word formed to explain mukun-da as "giver of liberation")
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Harry Spier
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/5b61deb6/attachment.htm>

From hhhock at illinois.edu  Sun Jun  3 15:19:59 2018
From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 15:19:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQFpX1Mb=wYifCk3S0cEhZZeY6sAx7cQNFYdyctLYrg3Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C76ADD96-DDD5-4364-A508-843B2C7BAF94@illinois.edu>

fwiw: Another possible source of govinda is gopendra ?chief of the cowherds?

Hans Henrich


On 3 Jun 2018, at 10:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Thank you Madhav,

You mention aravinda as possibly non-indo-european.  Does that also apply to govinda?
Monier-Williams has govinda as go-vinda with vinda ifc as "finding".  But I vaguely recall (though I can't find it anymore) that MacDonells or Whitneys grammar   had a footnote somewhere that the etymology of govinda was uncertain and that it might be from go+indra through the prakrit.

Harry Spier

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu<mailto:mmdesh at umich.edu>> wrote:
I was under the impression that words like Mukunda, Aravinda, Maranda, Mucakunda were historically of non-Indo-European origin.  Did Michael Witzel write something about such words?  Trying to remember.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear list members,

Can someone give the etymology of mukunda?

Is the information in Monier-Williams under "muku" a folk-etymology?
muku = mukti (a word formed to explain mukun-da as "giver of liberation")

Thanks,
Harry Spier

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/cb3183f4/attachment.htm>

From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 16:08:15 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 18:08:15 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
In-Reply-To: <C76ADD96-DDD5-4364-A508-843B2C7BAF94@illinois.edu>
Message-ID: <CAANHO1611kvhBFfnLHe6CFp8qp5b7EpbRKr+NLVVrQQMphbrbg@mail.gmail.com>

I remind everyone that Manfred Mayrhofer spent his entire life writing
etymological dictionaries of Sanskrit, the Etymologisches W?rterbuch des
Altindoarischen and the Kurzgefasstes etymologisches W?rterbuch des
Altindischen. Even if you don't read German (and the KEWA has English
glosses), you are always better off trying to make sense of his comments
than Whitney's (or almost anyone else's) guesses. For most of the words
mentioned in this thread, he has reliable and relatively up-to-date
comments. He refers to the two possible explanations for g?vinda-
(including references to Vedic g?v?d- and g?vind?-, ga?? ?vindan, Avestan
v?dat?.gu-, etc.) and adduces ????????? ?chickpea? and Kannada are-viri ?be
half open? in the case of aravinda-.

2018-06-03 17:19 GMT+02:00 Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> fwiw: Another possible source of *govinda* is *gopendra* ?chief of the
> cowherds?
>
> Hans Henrich
>
>
> On 3 Jun 2018, at 10:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Thank you Madhav,
>
> You mention aravinda as possibly non-indo-european.  Does that also apply
> to govinda?
> Monier-Williams has govinda as go-vinda with vinda ifc as "finding".  But
> I vaguely recall (though I can't find it anymore) that MacDonells or
> Whitneys grammar   had a footnote somewhere that the etymology of govinda
> was uncertain and that it might be from go+indra through the prakrit.
>
> Harry Spier
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> I was under the impression that words like Mukunda, Aravinda, Maranda,
>> Mucakunda were historically of non-Indo-European origin.  Did Michael
>> Witzel write something about such words?  Trying to remember.  Best,
>>
>> Madhav Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus
>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear list members,
>>>
>>> Can someone give the etymology of mukunda?
>>>
>>> Is the information in Monier-Williams under "muku" a folk-etymology?
>>> muku = mukti (a word formed to explain mukun-da as "giver of liberation")
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Harry Spier
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/eabf9596/attachment.htm>

From hhhock at illinois.edu  Sun Jun  3 17:11:59 2018
From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 17:11:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO1611kvhBFfnLHe6CFp8qp5b7EpbRKr+NLVVrQQMphbrbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9BF223C2-DE73-4B8F-9D65-12CAFAD706D4@illinois.edu>

Right; the EWA is not accessible to me right now.

Renou (introduction g?n?rale to Wackernagel), p. 29-30, accepts gopendra as the source, with folk etymology (not his term) of MIAr. govinda (fr. Skt. gopendra) as based on go and vid; and in note 438 he states that this has been accepted by Mayrhofer in his EWA. ? ?Ainsi govinda- ?p?tre? (surnom de K???a), forme m.i., s?est accr?dit?e en place du synonnyme gopendra- [438], parce qu?on pouvait la relier ? vid- (vindati)[439] et l?analyser en go-vinda- ?qui trouve our procure des vaches?.'



On 3 Jun 2018, at 11:08, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I remind everyone that Manfred Mayrhofer spent his entire life writing etymological dictionaries of Sanskrit, the Etymologisches W?rterbuch des Altindoarischen and the Kurzgefasstes etymologisches W?rterbuch des Altindischen. Even if you don't read German (and the KEWA has English glosses), you are always better off trying to make sense of his comments than Whitney's (or almost anyone else's) guesses. For most of the words mentioned in this thread, he has reliable and relatively up-to-date comments. He refers to the two possible explanations for g?vinda- (including references to Vedic g?v?d- and g?vind?-, ga?? ?vindan, Avestan v?dat?.gu-, etc.) and adduces ????????? ?chickpea? and Kannada are-viri ?be half open? in the case of aravinda-.

2018-06-03 17:19 GMT+02:00 Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
fwiw: Another possible source of govinda is gopendra ?chief of the cowherds?

Hans Henrich


On 3 Jun 2018, at 10:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Thank you Madhav,

You mention aravinda as possibly non-indo-european.  Does that also apply to govinda?
Monier-Williams has govinda as go-vinda with vinda ifc as "finding".  But I vaguely recall (though I can't find it anymore) that MacDonells or Whitneys grammar   had a footnote somewhere that the etymology of govinda was uncertain and that it might be from go+indra through the prakrit.

Harry Spier

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu<mailto:mmdesh at umich.edu>> wrote:
I was under the impression that words like Mukunda, Aravinda, Maranda, Mucakunda were historically of non-Indo-European origin.  Did Michael Witzel write something about such words?  Trying to remember.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear list members,

Can someone give the etymology of mukunda?

Is the information in Monier-Williams under "muku" a folk-etymology?
muku = mukti (a word formed to explain mukun-da as "giver of liberation")

Thanks,
Harry Spier

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/65445c97/attachment.htm>

From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 19:15:08 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 15:15:08 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Etymology of Mukunda
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzdj=DzM4n-GuD+a-jtTmcKAWDf6w77zbyTfkbvoZUyXBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHSMeq1ftL3mzWhq5UDbfLywZrdD-ctxCp5UyFsAvXQWA@mail.gmail.com>

Madhav wrote:


I was under the impression that words like Mukunda, Aravinda, Maranda,
> Mucakunda were historically of non-Indo-European origin.  Did Michael
> Witzel write something about such words?
>

You are correct.
page 4  Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan (?gvedic, Middle and Late
Vedic) by M. Witzel

. . . suffixes such as -??, -?a, -an-da/-a-nda-, -b?th- a/-b?-th-a do not
exist in ?E and ??r.  ....

Harry Spier


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/adfe3a6f/attachment.htm>

From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 19:17:16 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 13:17:16 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Philology and Network Science
In-Reply-To: <51D2118F-B8AB-4F87-8AD9-558B726FD3FC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cep3WsL+pehQ8HJCL_j+AfbBMY+ev8e4N4HnXmFiNStJQ@mail.gmail.com>

The statistical techniques of text analysis described as being used by
Ribeiro were developed in the 1960s and 1970s.  I used such ideas in an
article I published in 1978.  It's very old-hat.  The statistical methods
are worthwhile and will - when applied - help us indologists too, with
cases like Kalidasa and Sankara.  The work of Oliver Hellwig on the
chronology of Sanskrit alchemical literature is a wonderful case study of
this kind of thing, but much more sophisticated than Ribeiro's work.
Ribeiro appears not to have the slightest awareness of the field of Digital
Humanities, at least as he is represented in this article.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca
??



On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 at 08:45, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I thought the attached excerpt from an article published in the Penn
> Engineer magazine issue of Spring 2018 may be of interest to the members.
>
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/800101c1/attachment.htm>

From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 21:23:46 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 17:23:46 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQGD2+Cj0h6cZrem=1X3eA9PY-nbqZr=aRAv1hoXNEtvBA@mail.gmail.com>

My understanding is that in modern sanskrit translations when the
translator inserts words into the translation that weren't in the sanskrit
to make the meaning clearer then those words  are usually put in brackets.

Is there a convention on what type of brackets are usually used, square
brackets or regular brackets?

Thanks,
Harry Spier


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/c838e781/attachment.htm>

From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 02:23:19 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 18 20:23:19 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQGD2+Cj0h6cZrem=1X3eA9PY-nbqZr=aRAv1hoXNEtvBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeJE-65WDa7svbDaG9XrL=hYuYYPgDKaA7fe+-hfuTheg@mail.gmail.com>

Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here
<https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>
.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?
??



On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 at 15:24, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> My understanding is that in modern sanskrit translations when the
> translator inserts words into the translation that weren't in the sanskrit
> to make the meaning clearer then those words  are usually put in brackets.
>
> Is there a convention on what type of brackets are usually used, square
> brackets or regular brackets?
>
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180603/ae4aba42/attachment.htm>

From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at  Mon Jun  4 04:04:37 2018
From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 18 06:04:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeJE-65WDa7svbDaG9XrL=hYuYYPgDKaA7fe+-hfuTheg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7f0801d3-8e1c-eefc-a500-a3d34da2b06f@oeaw.ac.at>

The use of brackets in translations of philosophical texts in particular 
has been much discussed lately, and my impression is that in this area 
brackets have fallen out of favor (or are in the process of falling ...).

McCrea and Patil articulate and also demonstrate a "no 
brackets"-approach to translation in their rendering of J??na?r?mitra's 
Apohaprakara?a ("Buddhist Philosophy of Language in India", Columbia 
Univ. Press 2010).

But to answer Harry Spier's specific question, the convention I am 
familiar with in German translations is that square brackets are used 
for supplying words without lexical representation in the Sanskrit, 
while round brackets are used to enclose Sanskrit terms when such terms 
are adduced within the English translation.

With best regards,

Birgit Kellner


Am 2018-06-04 um 04:23 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY:
> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)? My thoughts are 
> here 
> <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>.
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ?,?
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ?,?
>
> Department of History and Classics 
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ?,?
> University of Alberta, Canada
> ?.?
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
> ?sas.ualberta.ca? <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
> ??
>
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 at 15:24, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>     My understanding is that in modern sanskrit translations when the
>     translator inserts words into the translation that weren't in the
>     sanskrit to make the meaning clearer then those words? are usually
>     put in brackets.
>
>     Is there a convention on what type of brackets are usually used,
>     square brackets or regular brackets?
>
>     Thanks,
>     Harry Spier
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
----
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
A-1020 Vienna
Austria
Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410
http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180604/dcd22189/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jun  4 13:18:18 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 18 06:18:18 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfprCUQ3+kgLKMVT8Z5mqDOc6zZmYu2BB=M40LkgmYj4w@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Sanskrit Krishna verses:

????????????? ??????: ??????? ??????: ?
???????? ???????????? ???????????? ???? ???????
Vi??u is described as having the complexion of the moon and wearing white
garments. Just after being born in the womb of Devaki, how did he acquire a
dark hue?

??????????: ???? ???? ????????????? ?
?????????????? ???????????????? ????????? ??
Looking at your own reflection in the mirror of the water of Yamun?, and
noticing your own dark hue, you asked your mother about it.

??????? ?????????????? ?????? ?? ????????: ?
??????? ?????????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???????
Why am I with a dark hue, while my brother looks fair. O Mother, please
tell me. What is the reason behind my dark hue?

??????? ?? ????????? ???: ????? ????: ?
??????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ???????
O Kr???a, there are many reasons for your dark hue. Pay attention to what I
am telling you, O Madhus?dana.

??????? ????????? ??????? ???? ???? ?
?????????????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???????
Day after day you dive into the dark waters of Yamun?, and then your body
became dark. O M?dhava, is there any surprise?

?????? ??? ??????: ????? ???? ???????? ?
???? ???????? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ???????
O Kr???a, even if you bathe in the water of Yamun? a hundred times, that
water of Yamun? is of a dark hue. How will your dark hue go away?

???? ????????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?
?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????: ???????
On the banks of Yamun?, you play in the sun day after day. Your brother
plays in the shade. That is why he looks fair.

????? ????????? ?????????????????????: ?
??? ????????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ??? ???????
As a child, you used to run here and there stuffing your mouth with mud.
Your body smeared with that mud became dark.

?????? ?????????????: ????????? ????????? ?
?????? ?? ??????????? ?????????? ????? ???? ???????
The collyrium in the eyes of the mother passes on to the body of her child.
O M?dhava, the collyrium from my eyes passed on to you.

?????? ???????????? ???????????? ? ?
???????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????
There is collyrium in R?dh??s eyes and in the eyes of the milkmaids, and it
constantly showers on you in Gokula, O Kr???a.

?????????? ????????? ??????: ??????? ?? ???: ?
????? ??? ?????? ????? ? ???????? ????? ???????
The gaze of the milkmaids, smeared with collyrium, touches your body. That
collyrium of theirs will never go away.

??????? ?? ??????? ????????? ????? ?? ?
?? ?????? ????????? ????? ????? ???? ????????? ?? ???????
O Govinda, your dark hue has entered into my heart. What worry is bothering
you today? You are dear to me as you are.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180604/d1c0354e/attachment.htm>

From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 14:44:30 2018
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (adheesh sathaye)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 18 07:44:30 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeJE-65WDa7svbDaG9XrL=hYuYYPgDKaA7fe+-hfuTheg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4953C296-6FC5-4164-9E6A-15DA8C7B4847@gmail.com>

Thank you, Dominik, for point us to a really thoughtful piece, coming at a timely moment for me personaly, as I embark upon a couple of translation projects. I especially appreciate this sentence, which I also firmly believe:

" To present an incoherent English text is a tacit assertion that the Sanskrit is incoherent.?



With gratitude,
Adheesh

?
Adheesh Sathaye
University of British Columbia




> On Jun 3, 2018, at 19.23, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>.
> 
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>?,?
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity?,?
> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>?,?
> University of Alberta, Canada?.?
> South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>??
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 at 15:24, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> My understanding is that in modern sanskrit translations when the translator inserts words into the translation that weren't in the sanskrit to make the meaning clearer then those words  are usually put in brackets.
> 
> Is there a convention on what type of brackets are usually used, square brackets or regular brackets?
> 
> Thanks,
> Harry Spier
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180604/74458a40/attachment.htm>

From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Mon Jun  4 20:39:50 2018
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 18 22:39:50 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Der im Traum pferdlos geritten ist (Re: Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <4953C296-6FC5-4164-9E6A-15DA8C7B4847@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9325b124-3625-1ac2-32ea-9a2941d5c273@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Adheesh,

reading Dominik's "RED BUTTON" thoughts ;-) , the Kielhorn quotation 
which he provides, and your comment, made me realize two things:

(1)
I am glad Kielhorn wrote the way he wrote :-)
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PCYb5KMkh5E/VxqoZQErkLI/AAAAAAAAfuU/pTICt1pelO4LyLWHUSJTefYYk5f3wXJXACLcB/s1600/kielhorn.jpg
I find it beautiful (and mentally stimulating)

(2)
Many native speakers of English do not realize how it is for others,
whose feelings have been eloquently expressed by the mathematician 
Hermann Weyl in the preface to one of his books

https://books.google.de/books?id=2twDDAAAQBAJ

<BEGIN QUOTE>
"The gods have imposed upon my writing the yoke of a foreign tongue that 
was not sung at my cradle."
<END QUOTE>

[and switched to German, saying:]
<BEGIN QUOTE>
"Was dies heissen will weiss jeder
Der im Traum pferdlos geritten ist"
<END QUOTE>

(see attached image, if it goes through)

I had found (LONG AGO) a web page (no longer active)

http://www.mis.mpg.de/zeidler/preface-qft1.pdf

where these two German lines were translated as:

"Everyone who has dreamt of riding free, without the need of a horse, 
will know what I mean".


Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc (in Hamburg)


https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard

https://twitter.com/JLC1956


On 04/06/2018 16:44, adheesh sathaye via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Thank you, Dominik, for point us to a really thoughtful piece, coming at 
> a timely moment for me personaly, as I embark upon a couple of 
> translation projects. I especially appreciate this sentence, which I 
> also firmly believe:
> 
> " To present an incoherent English text is a tacit assertion that the 
> Sanskrit is incoherent.?
> 
> 
> 
> With gratitude,
> Adheesh
> 
> ?
> Adheesh Sathaye
> University of British Columbia
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 3, 2018, at 19.23, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)? My thoughts are 
>> here 
>> <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>.
>>
>> --
>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>> ?,?
>>
>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>> ?,?
>>
>> Department of History and Classics 
>> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>> ?,?
>> University of Alberta, Canada
>> ?.?
>>
>> South Asia at the U of A:
>> ?sas.ualberta.ca? <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
>> ??
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 at 15:24, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>>     My understanding is that in modern sanskrit translations when the
>>     translator inserts words into the translation that weren't in the
>>     sanskrit to make the meaning clearer then those words? are usually
>>     put in brackets.
>>
>>     Is there a convention on what type of brackets are usually used,
>>     square brackets or regular brackets?
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>     Harry Spier
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>>     managing committee)
>>     http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/>
>>     (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 





From dnreigle at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 23:35:40 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 18 17:35:40 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <4953C296-6FC5-4164-9E6A-15DA8C7B4847@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYU+OevXHN47SkjVNPtqQ=nK1jEq=Vh2eP+7AWVA_zStg@mail.gmail.com>

 Jean-Luc's reply has emboldened me to present a couple of observations on
this issue. But first, a clarification. In American English the word
"brackets" refers to square brackets [like this], while the word
"parentheses" refers to round brackets (like this). From some things I have
read by British writers, this may not be the usage in British English.

Many times I have noticed something particularly interesting to me in an
English translation of a Sanskrit text, and have then looked it up to find
the Sanskrit behind it. Many times the Sanskrit is not there; the
interesting English portion was silently supplied by the translator. The
problem here, for me, is that things get attributed to a Sanskrit writer
that are in fact by an English-language translator. So brackets are very
helpful to me, at least in technical writings (obviously excluding such
writings as novels).

This pertains to the issue of accuracy, which can be more important than
readability. The large-scale translation of the Buddhist scriptures from
Sanskrit, first into Chinese, and later into Tibetan, is probably the
largest example known to history from which the effects of literary versus
literal translations can be studied. The Chinese translations were
literary, while the Tibetan translations were literal, so literally
accurate that brackets were not required. In general, nothing was added
that was not in the Sanskrit. The Tibetan translations were made literally
by early royal decree, the idea being that the Buddha's words were too
sacred to risk interpretation by translators. The resulting translations
were not readily comprehensible to the people, as Geshe Lozang Jamspal
assured me. The canonical translations were usually studied in Tibet by way
of later commentaries on them written in native Tibetan.

In brief, Buddhism did not flourish in China, at least partly due to
confusion of the meaning of the Buddhist texts resulting from their more
literary translations, and contradictions between the different Chinese
translations of the same Sanskrit text. By contrast, Buddhism flourished in
Tibet, at least partly due to the consistency of the literally accurate
translations of the Buddhist texts, with their standardized translation
terms. The various Buddhist schools could arise in Tibet, with their
various interpretations of the Buddhist texts, because they all started
from the consistently same basis. The interpretations came later; they were
not built in to the translations of the core texts by the translators.

No one in Tibet wondered, for example, whether a Sanskrit core text spoke
of dhy?na or sam?dhi, because dhy?na was consistently translated as bsam
gtan, while sam?dhi was consistently translated as ting nge 'dzin. The
Tibetans did not have to contend with "meditation" or "concentration" or
"meditative absorption" or "meditative stabilization" used variously for
these two words in translations, like we have in English translations
today, and apparently like what occurred in the Chinese translations. Since
we do not have standardized translation terms, adding the Sanskrit word in
parentheses is something I find helpful. Nor did the Tibetans have to
wonder whether a word or phrase was added to the translation by the
translator. When words or phrases are added, as I believe is often
necessary in translations of terse Sanskrit into English, I find brackets
to be helpful.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180604/df691940/attachment.htm>

From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 08:46:49 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 10:46:49 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekYU+OevXHN47SkjVNPtqQ=nK1jEq=Vh2eP+7AWVA_zStg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4LJtuye5sz=qUORA+RcmevimDTaW2R6DOZSBmz2upgs2w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear David, dear all

I am not very sure about engaging here, but my great appreciation for David
and his contributions (as well as his personal kindnesses to me) prompts me
to try to correct what I see as a few misunderstandings here.
First, there is a wide variation in not only the quality but also the
approach to translations into Chinese from, let us say for ease of
conversation, Sanskrit. From a Chinese perspective, the use of the word
"literary" is incautious; I think there is probably close to nothing
translated into Chinese of Buddhist literature which was considered
literary (yes, I know, one could argue a few cases, but on the whole this
is true, I believe). But let us assume for the moment that there is a good
distinction between "literal" and "literary" (which I think there is not):
the distinction between Tibetan and Chinese translations is in any case not
of this type, and one main reason is that, contrary to the 'evidence' of
one modern Tibetan, we have almost no idea how contemporary readers
understood their texts. BUT wait, we actually do have at least one way of
seeking this out: I have been working recently on a corpus of materials
translated from Chinese into Tibetan, mostly but not exclusively in
Dunhuang. And guess what: when the Tibetan readers recorded in Tibetan
their understanding of the Chinese translations, it comes out looking every
bit as "precise" and "literal" as the translations from Sanskrit. So
something is a bit wrong with this picture.
I am not going to go into the issue of royal decrees here, but I would
suggest that there is much more of the political here than there is concern
with fidelity, or better, that these are deeply intertwined.
I confess to finding it a bit difficult to understand the claim that
Buddhism did not flourish in China. I had to read the paragraph several
times (even without parentheses!) to discover that this is indeed the
intended meaning. But by almost any measure, this is clearly simply wrong
(not to mention that, uh, it ignores the deep Tibetan debt to China for
part of its own Buddhist traditions...). The rest of that paragraph would
require a bit of unpacking; I think I know what it means, and I disagree
with it, but I might be wrong, so I'll leave it aside.
As for the last paragraph, please refer to what I wrote above about the
Tibetan translations from Chinese, first of all, but second of all: the
more we learn about Indian Buddhist texts, the more we learn that --at
least as far as scriptures are concerned, and it might be somewhat
different in the case of ??stras-- the fluidity of vocabulary, even
technical vocabulary, is much greater than we might expect (1), and since
there is virtually no case in which we know exactly which Sanskrit text
served as the Vorlage for a Tibetan translation, we simply cannot know what
they were attempting to render in any given case (of course there are
patterns, but again, even with ??stras, fluidity exists) (2).
So in all, I think that we need to seriously reconsider the model David
offers here.
None of this however is really relevant to the question of parentheses in
translations--apologies for the rant!
David, please don't take this as in any way ad hominem--it is not meant
that way in the least!!
Very best, Jonathan

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:35 AM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Jean-Luc's reply has emboldened me to present a couple of observations on
> this issue. But first, a clarification. In American English the word
> "brackets" refers to square brackets [like this], while the word
> "parentheses" refers to round brackets (like this). From some things I have
> read by British writers, this may not be the usage in British English.
>
> Many times I have noticed something particularly interesting to me in an
> English translation of a Sanskrit text, and have then looked it up to find
> the Sanskrit behind it. Many times the Sanskrit is not there; the
> interesting English portion was silently supplied by the translator. The
> problem here, for me, is that things get attributed to a Sanskrit writer
> that are in fact by an English-language translator. So brackets are very
> helpful to me, at least in technical writings (obviously excluding such
> writings as novels).
>
> This pertains to the issue of accuracy, which can be more important than
> readability. The large-scale translation of the Buddhist scriptures from
> Sanskrit, first into Chinese, and later into Tibetan, is probably the
> largest example known to history from which the effects of literary versus
> literal translations can be studied. The Chinese translations were
> literary, while the Tibetan translations were literal, so literally
> accurate that brackets were not required. In general, nothing was added
> that was not in the Sanskrit. The Tibetan translations were made literally
> by early royal decree, the idea being that the Buddha's words were too
> sacred to risk interpretation by translators. The resulting translations
> were not readily comprehensible to the people, as Geshe Lozang Jamspal
> assured me. The canonical translations were usually studied in Tibet by way
> of later commentaries on them written in native Tibetan.
>
> In brief, Buddhism did not flourish in China, at least partly due to
> confusion of the meaning of the Buddhist texts resulting from their more
> literary translations, and contradictions between the different Chinese
> translations of the same Sanskrit text. By contrast, Buddhism flourished in
> Tibet, at least partly due to the consistency of the literally accurate
> translations of the Buddhist texts, with their standardized translation
> terms. The various Buddhist schools could arise in Tibet, with their
> various interpretations of the Buddhist texts, because they all started
> from the consistently same basis. The interpretations came later; they were
> not built in to the translations of the core texts by the translators.
>
> No one in Tibet wondered, for example, whether a Sanskrit core text spoke
> of dhy?na or sam?dhi, because dhy?na was consistently translated as bsam
> gtan, while sam?dhi was consistently translated as ting nge 'dzin. The
> Tibetans did not have to contend with "meditation" or "concentration" or
> "meditative absorption" or "meditative stabilization" used variously for
> these two words in translations, like we have in English translations
> today, and apparently like what occurred in the Chinese translations. Since
> we do not have standardized translation terms, adding the Sanskrit word in
> parentheses is something I find helpful. Nor did the Tibetans have to
> wonder whether a word or phrase was added to the translation by the
> translator. When words or phrases are added, as I believe is often
> necessary in translations of terse Sanskrit into English, I find brackets
> to be helpful.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/28c31875/attachment.htm>

From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 08:54:41 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 10:54:41 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Der im Traum pferdlos geritten ist (Re: Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <9325b124-3625-1ac2-32ea-9a2941d5c273@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4+OQ2bctVwpjhAeHOdHbKWSggqPDTFJbsQ5QBiv6XKW7w@mail.gmail.com>

there is another issue with the Kielhorn quotation, I would say, namely
that most (or at least much) of the inserted material is not necessary at
all!

"All of this is inadmissible" is EXACTLY the same thing as "All of this is,
however, inadmissible", with or without parentheses.
Every individual word? Is that somehow different from every word?
So I'm not entirely sure in this case also why Dominik picked this example,
although knowing him I would not be surprised if he had this very point in
mind as well... (and yes, I did not notice the incoherent sentences later
in the paragraph...)

Jonathan

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:39 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Adheesh,
>
> reading Dominik's "RED BUTTON" thoughts ;-) , the Kielhorn quotation which
> he provides, and your comment, made me realize two things:
>
> (1)
> I am glad Kielhorn wrote the way he wrote :-)
> https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PCYb5KMkh5E/VxqoZQErkLI/AAAAAAAAf
> uU/pTICt1pelO4LyLWHUSJTefYYk5f3wXJXACLcB/s1600/kielhorn.jpg
> I find it beautiful (and mentally stimulating)
>
> (2)
> Many native speakers of English do not realize how it is for others,
> whose feelings have been eloquently expressed by the mathematician Hermann
> Weyl in the preface to one of his books
>
> https://books.google.de/books?id=2twDDAAAQBAJ
>
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
> "The gods have imposed upon my writing the yoke of a foreign tongue that
> was not sung at my cradle."
> <END QUOTE>
>
> [and switched to German, saying:]
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
> "Was dies heissen will weiss jeder
> Der im Traum pferdlos geritten ist"
> <END QUOTE>
>
> (see attached image, if it goes through)
>
> I had found (LONG AGO) a web page (no longer active)
>
> http://www.mis.mpg.de/zeidler/preface-qft1.pdf
>
> where these two German lines were translated as:
>
> "Everyone who has dreamt of riding free, without the need of a horse, will
> know what I mean".
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> -- Jean-Luc (in Hamburg)
>
>
> https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard
>
> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
>
>
> On 04/06/2018 16:44, adheesh sathaye via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Dominik, for point us to a really thoughtful piece, coming at
>> a timely moment for me personaly, as I embark upon a couple of translation
>> projects. I especially appreciate this sentence, which I also firmly
>> believe:
>>
>> " To present an incoherent English text is a tacit assertion that the
>> Sanskrit is incoherent.?
>>
>>
>>
>> With gratitude,
>> Adheesh
>>
>> ?
>> Adheesh Sathaye
>> University of British Columbia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 3, 2018, at 19.23, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here <
>>> https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-
>>> in-translation.html>.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk
>>> >
>>> ?,?
>>>
>>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>>> ?,?
>>>
>>> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ual
>>> berta.ca/>
>>> ?,?
>>> University of Alberta, Canada
>>> ?.?
>>>
>>> South Asia at the U of A:
>>> ?sas.ualberta.ca? <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
>>> ??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 at 15:24, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     My understanding is that in modern sanskrit translations when the
>>>     translator inserts words into the translation that weren't in the
>>>     sanskrit to make the meaning clearer then those words  are usually
>>>     put in brackets.
>>>
>>>     Is there a convention on what type of brackets are usually used,
>>>     square brackets or regular brackets?
>>>
>>>     Thanks,
>>>     Harry Spier
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>>>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>>>     managing committee)
>>>     http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/>
>>>     (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/8c06ccab/attachment.htm>

From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Jun  5 12:05:45 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 12:05:45 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4LJtuye5sz=qUORA+RcmevimDTaW2R6DOZSBmz2upgs2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB15984B30B9E563878D30548FA1660@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear David,


Of course, this thread is about the use of brackets, not translation per se, but because the issue was raised I wish to say, despite my customary agreement with you, that the issue of "literary" vs. "literal" in Tibetan translation from Sanskrit is a red herring. Some Tibetan translations do indeed have the status of major literary works in Tibet, others are virtually unreadable, even for suitably educated Tibetans. And the storied Tibetan literalism, the reputation for translations that are word for word calques, is generally misleading.


It is true that the Tibetans worked with a highly standardized translation lexicon, but they departed from this when it was clearly warranted to do so. Moreover, given the polysemy of Sanskrit, the better translators recognized that choices had to be made on many occasions. In addition, there are many features of Tibetan translation that are not explicitly represented in the Sanskrit at all; for instance, compounds, in Tibetan translation, often in fact give the vigraha of the compound.


I cannot imagine that anyone might consider the Tibetan translation of a phrase from the BCA, rasaj?tam ativa vedhan?yam as gser 'gyur rtsi yi rnam pa mchog lta bu, "like the best form of the gold-transforming-ointment," to be precisely "literal," but in the context of the verse in which it occurs, it works perfectly well.


As for Tibetan translations from Chinese, as Stein showed some decades ago, some are really very approximate paraphrases (e.g. the Tibetan Shujing), others attempt to "Indianize" certain Buddhist works of Chinese origin, while others still adopt a distinctive lexicon for the representation of Buddhist ideas.


as ever,

all best,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:46:49 AM
To: David and Nancy Reigle
Cc: Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations

Dear David, dear all

I am not very sure about engaging here, but my great appreciation for David and his contributions (as well as his personal kindnesses to me) prompts me to try to correct what I see as a few misunderstandings here.
First, there is a wide variation in not only the quality but also the approach to translations into Chinese from, let us say for ease of conversation, Sanskrit. From a Chinese perspective, the use of the word "literary" is incautious; I think there is probably close to nothing translated into Chinese of Buddhist literature which was considered literary (yes, I know, one could argue a few cases, but on the whole this is true, I believe). But let us assume for the moment that there is a good distinction between "literal" and "literary" (which I think there is not): the distinction between Tibetan and Chinese translations is in any case not of this type, and one main reason is that, contrary to the 'evidence' of one modern Tibetan, we have almost no idea how contemporary readers understood their texts. BUT wait, we actually do have at least one way of seeking this out: I have been working recently on a corpus of materials translated from Chinese into Tibetan, mostly but not exclusively in Dunhuang. And guess what: when the Tibetan readers recorded in Tibetan their understanding of the Chinese translations, it comes out looking every bit as "precise" and "literal" as the translations from Sanskrit. So something is a bit wrong with this picture.
I am not going to go into the issue of royal decrees here, but I would suggest that there is much more of the political here than there is concern with fidelity, or better, that these are deeply intertwined.
I confess to finding it a bit difficult to understand the claim that Buddhism did not flourish in China. I had to read the paragraph several times (even without parentheses!) to discover that this is indeed the intended meaning. But by almost any measure, this is clearly simply wrong (not to mention that, uh, it ignores the deep Tibetan debt to China for part of its own Buddhist traditions...). The rest of that paragraph would require a bit of unpacking; I think I know what it means, and I disagree with it, but I might be wrong, so I'll leave it aside.
As for the last paragraph, please refer to what I wrote above about the Tibetan translations from Chinese, first of all, but second of all: the more we learn about Indian Buddhist texts, the more we learn that --at least as far as scriptures are concerned, and it might be somewhat different in the case of ??stras-- the fluidity of vocabulary, even technical vocabulary, is much greater than we might expect (1), and since there is virtually no case in which we know exactly which Sanskrit text served as the Vorlage for a Tibetan translation, we simply cannot know what they were attempting to render in any given case (of course there are patterns, but again, even with ??stras, fluidity exists) (2).
So in all, I think that we need to seriously reconsider the model David offers here.
None of this however is really relevant to the question of parentheses in translations--apologies for the rant!
David, please don't take this as in any way ad hominem--it is not meant that way in the least!!
Very best, Jonathan

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:35 AM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Jean-Luc's reply has emboldened me to present a couple of observations on this issue. But first, a clarification. In American English the word "brackets" refers to square brackets [like this], while the word "parentheses" refers to round brackets (like this). From some things I have read by British writers, this may not be the usage in British English.

Many times I have noticed something particularly interesting to me in an English translation of a Sanskrit text, and have then looked it up to find the Sanskrit behind it. Many times the Sanskrit is not there; the interesting English portion was silently supplied by the translator. The problem here, for me, is that things get attributed to a Sanskrit writer that are in fact by an English-language translator. So brackets are very helpful to me, at least in technical writings (obviously excluding such writings as novels).

This pertains to the issue of accuracy, which can be more important than readability. The large-scale translation of the Buddhist scriptures from Sanskrit, first into Chinese, and later into Tibetan, is probably the largest example known to history from which the effects of literary versus literal translations can be studied. The Chinese translations were literary, while the Tibetan translations were literal, so literally accurate that brackets were not required. In general, nothing was added that was not in the Sanskrit. The Tibetan translations were made literally by early royal decree, the idea being that the Buddha's words were too sacred to risk interpretation by translators. The resulting translations were not readily comprehensible to the people, as Geshe Lozang Jamspal assured me. The canonical translations were usually studied in Tibet by way of later commentaries on them written in native Tibetan.

In brief, Buddhism did not flourish in China, at least partly due to confusion of the meaning of the Buddhist texts resulting from their more literary translations, and contradictions between the different Chinese translations of the same Sanskrit text. By contrast, Buddhism flourished in Tibet, at least partly due to the consistency of the literally accurate translations of the Buddhist texts, with their standardized translation terms. The various Buddhist schools could arise in Tibet, with their various interpretations of the Buddhist texts, because they all started from the consistently same basis. The interpretations came later; they were not built in to the translations of the core texts by the translators.

No one in Tibet wondered, for example, whether a Sanskrit core text spoke of dhy?na or sam?dhi, because dhy?na was consistently translated as bsam gtan, while sam?dhi was consistently translated as ting nge 'dzin. The Tibetans did not have to contend with "meditation" or "concentration" or "meditative absorption" or "meditative stabilization" used variously for these two words in translations, like we have in English translations today, and apparently like what occurred in the Chinese translations. Since we do not have standardized translation terms, adding the Sanskrit word in parentheses is something I find helpful. Nor did the Tibetans have to wonder whether a word or phrase was added to the translation by the translator. When words or phrases are added, as I believe is often necessary in translations of terse Sanskrit into English, I find brackets to be helpful.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/cf9060ff/attachment.htm>

From d.wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 12:38:21 2018
From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 14:38:21 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Shared histories of yoga and Ayurveda in the 20th century
Message-ID: <CAEhxeU2j7O_Bd228iy4R-yEt8oPLDz17EAz1T79vN3veQdLb4w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I am pleased to announce the launch of the Ayuryog project's timeline on
the shared histories of yoga and Ayurveda in the 20th century, which you
can find on the project website at http://ayuryog.org/timeline . The
timeline was created by Suzanne Newcombe.

One of the major aims of the Ayuryog project is to explore the
entanglements of yoga and Ayurveda. As a resource to visualize these
entanglements in the twentieth century, we are pleased to present an
interactive timeline of key events linked to the entanglement of yoga and
Ayurveda from the colonial period to the present.

Any summary of key events and dates is always incomplete. If you?d like to
suggest additions and corrections to the timeline, please get in touch!

We used a Drupal plugin for this, and have found the technical details of
the plugin somewhat limiting (for example, we can't go back any further
than the 19th century). Nevertheless, it's a start and will hopefully prove
useful.

With kind regards,

Dagmar Wujastyk


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/30aa2f8d/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun  5 13:44:40 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 06:44:40 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzf7hcXLEjFgZ6btDNE+7Zh4Hc5mU=SiVS-XmYY=See7jA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

?????? ?????????????? ??????? ???????? ?

??: ??????? ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????

The collyrium of the Moon of Kr???a spread into the waters of Yamun?.  From
there it spread everywhere, and gave Gokula its dark hue.


?????: ????????????? ?????????????? ?????? ?

??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????????????? ?????? ???????

The dark spot on the white moon shines like an ornament.  Then why would
the dark hue of the Moon of Kr???a be a blemish?


???????? ????????????? ?????? ?? ???????????? ?

??????? ? ????????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????

The dark daughter of Drupada treated Kr???a as her brother.  There is no
surprise.  They both have a dark hue.


???????????? ??????? ?? ?????: ?????? ????????? ?

????? ? ???????? ????? ????????: ????????? ???????

The great sage Vy?sa who constantly and devoutly meditates upon Kr???a
himself gained the name Kr???a.


???????????? ???????????? ??????????? ??????:? ?

??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ? ????????? ???????

On the holy battlefield of Kurukshetra, you explained that Arjuna was also
Kr???a by saying: ?I am Arjuna among the P???avas.?


????????????? ????????? ??????????? ??????? ?

????? ?????????????? ???? ?????? ????????? ???????

Even in the previous incarnation, when he was R?ma of the lineage of Raghu,
he had a dark hue.  So he never lets it go.


???????? ?????????????? ?????? ????? ?? ?

?????????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????

May the beams of the Moon of Kr???a, rising in my heart, cleanse the
blemishes hidden there for a long time.


????? ?????????????? ??: ????????????? ?

????????????????? ???? ?? ??????? ???????

The black darkness [of ignorance] was removed by the brilliance of the Moon
of Kr???a.  This is surprising, O Lord.  Is your darkness white?


???????? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?

?????? ??????? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ???????

O Kr???a, your uncontrolled dark hue runs through everything.  Whatever you
touch with your gaze turns dark.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/98840618/attachment.htm>

From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 14:07:45 2018
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 23:07:45 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yogascapes in Japan conference CfP deadline June 15
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrDFKDo38N9A0qgwCq1N7UwhQcJpLQAzztcKHU9ar9CCQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

The deadline for the Yogascapes in Japan Conference CfP deadline is 15
June.
Please consider submitting an abstract and registering to present via this
link.  <https://www.yogascapesinjapan.com/information-and-registration.html>

Some information is below.


*??Call for Papers*

This conference seeks to foster an interdisciplinary exchange between
anthropologists, sociologists, historians, indologists, scholars of
religion, philosophers, philologists and linguists. And, also, yoga
practitioners and members of the general public interested in attending.

The intention is to facilitate a leisurely and collegial two-day
interdisciplinary conference, which is thematically anchored around the
broad theme of *yoga as movement*, particularly in relation to the imaginative
consumption
<https://drive.google.com/open?id=1p3JAECEsKasMly1PikdfM88fQeXdZ187>of
tourism and pilgrimage within the multi-trillion-dollar global wellness
industry
<https://www.globalwellnessinstitute.org/press-room/statistics-and-facts/>
(which defines wellness as a*state of complete physical, mental, and social
well-being*).

Building upon a 'serious leisure perspective
<https://www.seriousleisure.net/concepts.html>*'* (SLP), participants are
free to discuss how movement can be understood as that which occurs *on and
off the yoga mat. *This includes the imaginative movement that occurs in
meditation, the physical movement to and within one?s local yoga studio, or
travel to exotic, distant lands. Aspects of which are inherent in the
creation and consumption yoga-inflected lifestyles.

We will also explore how the subjective, embodied experience of the yoga
practitioner is mediated through internal movements of aspiration,
expectation, and imagination. This includes textual-historical and
ethnographic analysis of how imaginative interiorisation is used to
traverse an internal sacred-scape, such as a*m?nasa-t?rtha* (mind-passage),
a process that is arguably as important as physical movement through time
and space.

This development and management of imaginary landscapes, where the imagined
*-scape* is interpolated onto a physical place, may hold more
epistemological and ontological importance than the physical location one
finds themselves in (See McCartney 2017
<https://www.utne.com/politics/imagining-sanskrit-land-zm0z17fzcmar>).

This notion of ?movement? allows for the exploration of how the pursuit of
self-improvement
<https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/01/15/improving-ourselves-to-death>
 and purification may consequently produce different types of environmental
and social 'pollution'; and how participation in the global yoga tribe
might potentially reify both, global and local, social and economic
networks and hierarchies. Thus, 'movement', also relates to cultural
conflict related to the social-political issues of manipulating cultural
narratives, cultural appropriation, 'white-washing', and the building of
cultural nationalisms. Therefore, there is space within the conference for
us to discuss the steps required to practically decolonise yoga
<https://medium.com/@psdmccartney/decolonizing-yoga-is-it-going-deep-enough-51a84560cab9>,
both from the colonial and post-colonial/neo-liberal masters.

?If you would like to read more about the ideas inspiring this conference,
click here
<https://medium.com/@psdmccartney/naked-yoga-in-kyoto-perspectives-on-postures-pollution-and-pilgrimage-d1f13519c100>
.

?Thank you, for your interest in this conference.


All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University

Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)


Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>

Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> <http:>

   -

Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>

Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>

Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>



All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
JSPS Fellow - Graduate School of Global Environmental Studies, Kyoto
University, Japan
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University

Skype - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp:  +81-80-9811-3235
Twitter - @psdmccartney

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)


Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/>

Academia <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/>

   -

Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>

Edanz <https://www.edanzediting.com/expert/anthropology/patrick-mccartney>

Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/3593be2d/attachment.htm>

From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 15:15:25 2018
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 17:15:25 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB15984B30B9E563878D30548FA1660@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X43dBtocg_3JjN2=V8RarRpwZRA9TfafOQ-nizaPoCK9_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Re the Sanskrit to Tibetan translation aspect, I would echo what Matthew
has written.  In my work on English translation from Buddhist Sanskrit
tantra material that also has Tibetan translations, I found that the
Tibetan versions are:
a) often very exactly literal, word for word renditions of the original
Sanskrit
b) often rewordings that capture essentially the same meaning though with
different phrasing, both in prose and poetry sections
c) sometimes,  the Tibetan translators use a more general term for a quite
specific Sanskrit meaning, leading to issues with English translations
based solely on the general Tibetan term rather than the Sanskrit original,
since the more general Tibetan term loses the specificity of meaning
intended by the Sanskrit.
d) sometimes, as Matthew writes, "given the polysemy of Sanskrit, the
better translators recognized that choices had to be made on many
occasions"--these
unavoidable choices in the case of polysemous Sanskrit terms result in what
one might term 'partial' meaning in Tibetan, when the Tibetan translators
sought a single term in Tibetan to represent the polysemous term in
Sanskrit, since typically I found that the use of the polysemous Sanskrit
term was intentional, with the multiplicity of meaning embedded in the
single Sanskrit word important, or even critically important to
understanding the intent of the text--these instances suggested to me that
it was better in fact not to translate the Sanskrit term, but rather import
it into English (along with a suitable explanatory note).
e) rarely Tibetan translators mistook the original Sanskrit term for
another term and translated it incorrectly (these instances were rare, but
not non-existent).
f) occasionally the Tibetan translators did not translate the Sanskrit, but
tried to copy transliaterate it into Tibetan--more often than not these
transliterations were somewhat or even largely erroneous.

On 5 June 2018 at 14:05, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear David,
>
>
> Of course, this thread is about the use of brackets, not translation per
> se, but because the issue was raised I wish to say, despite my
> customary agreement with you, that the issue of "literary" vs. "literal" in
> Tibetan translation from Sanskrit is a red herring. Some Tibetan
> translations do indeed have the status of major literary works in Tibet,
> others are virtually unreadable, even for suitably educated Tibetans. And
> the storied Tibetan literalism, the reputation for translations that are
> word for word calques, is generally misleading.
>
>
> It is true that the Tibetans worked with a highly standardized translation
> lexicon, but they departed from this when it was clearly warranted to do
> so. Moreover, given the polysemy of Sanskrit, the better translators
> recognized that choices had to be made on many occasions. In addition,
> there are many features of Tibetan translation that are not explicitly
> represented in the Sanskrit at all; for instance, compounds, in Tibetan
> translation, often in fact give the vigraha of the compound.
>
>
> I cannot imagine that anyone might consider the Tibetan translation of a
> phrase from the BCA, *rasaj?tam ativa vedhan?yam* as *gser 'gyur rtsi yi
> rnam pa mchog lta bu*, "like the best form of the
> gold-transforming-ointment," to be precisely "literal," but in the context
> of the verse in which it occurs, it works perfectly well.
>
>
> As for Tibetan translations from Chinese, as Stein showed some decades
> ago, some are really very approximate paraphrases (e.g. the Tibetan
> Shujing), others attempt to "Indianize" certain Buddhist works of Chinese
> origin, while others still adopt a distinctive lexicon for the
> representation of Buddhist ideas.
>
>
> as ever,
>
> all best,
>
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:46:49 AM
> *To:* David and Nancy Reigle
> *Cc:* Indology
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
>
> Dear David, dear all
>
> I am not very sure about engaging here, but my great appreciation for
> David and his contributions (as well as his personal kindnesses to me)
> prompts me to try to correct what I see as a few misunderstandings here.
> First, there is a wide variation in not only the quality but also the
> approach to translations into Chinese from, let us say for ease of
> conversation, Sanskrit. From a Chinese perspective, the use of the word
> "literary" is incautious; I think there is probably close to nothing
> translated into Chinese of Buddhist literature which was considered
> literary (yes, I know, one could argue a few cases, but on the whole this
> is true, I believe). But let us assume for the moment that there is a good
> distinction between "literal" and "literary" (which I think there is not):
> the distinction between Tibetan and Chinese translations is in any case not
> of this type, and one main reason is that, contrary to the 'evidence' of
> one modern Tibetan, we have almost no idea how contemporary readers
> understood their texts. BUT wait, we actually do have at least one way of
> seeking this out: I have been working recently on a corpus of materials
> translated from Chinese into Tibetan, mostly but not exclusively in
> Dunhuang. And guess what: when the Tibetan readers recorded in Tibetan
> their understanding of the Chinese translations, it comes out looking every
> bit as "precise" and "literal" as the translations from Sanskrit. So
> something is a bit wrong with this picture.
> I am not going to go into the issue of royal decrees here, but I would
> suggest that there is much more of the political here than there is concern
> with fidelity, or better, that these are deeply intertwined.
> I confess to finding it a bit difficult to understand the claim that
> Buddhism did not flourish in China. I had to read the paragraph several
> times (even without parentheses!) to discover that this is indeed the
> intended meaning. But by almost any measure, this is clearly simply wrong
> (not to mention that, uh, it ignores the deep Tibetan debt to China for
> part of its own Buddhist traditions...). The rest of that paragraph would
> require a bit of unpacking; I think I know what it means, and I disagree
> with it, but I might be wrong, so I'll leave it aside.
> As for the last paragraph, please refer to what I wrote above about the
> Tibetan translations from Chinese, first of all, but second of all: the
> more we learn about Indian Buddhist texts, the more we learn that --at
> least as far as scriptures are concerned, and it might be somewhat
> different in the case of ??stras-- the fluidity of vocabulary, even
> technical vocabulary, is much greater than we might expect (1), and since
> there is virtually no case in which we know exactly which Sanskrit text
> served as the Vorlage for a Tibetan translation, we simply cannot know what
> they were attempting to render in any given case (of course there are
> patterns, but again, even with ??stras, fluidity exists) (2).
> So in all, I think that we need to seriously reconsider the model David
> offers here.
> None of this however is really relevant to the question of parentheses in
> translations--apologies for the rant!
> David, please don't take this as in any way ad hominem--it is not meant
> that way in the least!!
> Very best, Jonathan
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:35 AM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Jean-Luc's reply has emboldened me to present a couple of observations on
> this issue. But first, a clarification. In American English the word
> "brackets" refers to square brackets [like this], while the word
> "parentheses" refers to round brackets (like this). From some things I have
> read by British writers, this may not be the usage in British English.
>
> Many times I have noticed something particularly interesting to me in an
> English translation of a Sanskrit text, and have then looked it up to find
> the Sanskrit behind it. Many times the Sanskrit is not there; the
> interesting English portion was silently supplied by the translator. The
> problem here, for me, is that things get attributed to a Sanskrit writer
> that are in fact by an English-language translator. So brackets are very
> helpful to me, at least in technical writings (obviously excluding such
> writings as novels).
>
> This pertains to the issue of accuracy, which can be more important than
> readability. The large-scale translation of the Buddhist scriptures from
> Sanskrit, first into Chinese, and later into Tibetan, is probably the
> largest example known to history from which the effects of literary versus
> literal translations can be studied. The Chinese translations were
> literary, while the Tibetan translations were literal, so literally
> accurate that brackets were not required. In general, nothing was added
> that was not in the Sanskrit. The Tibetan translations were made literally
> by early royal decree, the idea being that the Buddha's words were too
> sacred to risk interpretation by translators. The resulting translations
> were not readily comprehensible to the people, as Geshe Lozang Jamspal
> assured me. The canonical translations were usually studied in Tibet by way
> of later commentaries on them written in native Tibetan.
>
> In brief, Buddhism did not flourish in China, at least partly due to
> confusion of the meaning of the Buddhist texts resulting from their more
> literary translations, and contradictions between the different Chinese
> translations of the same Sanskrit text. By contrast, Buddhism flourished in
> Tibet, at least partly due to the consistency of the literally accurate
> translations of the Buddhist texts, with their standardized translation
> terms. The various Buddhist schools could arise in Tibet, with their
> various interpretations of the Buddhist texts, because they all started
> from the consistently same basis. The interpretations came later; they were
> not built in to the translations of the core texts by the translators.
>
> No one in Tibet wondered, for example, whether a Sanskrit core text spoke
> of dhy?na or sam?dhi, because dhy?na was consistently translated as bsam
> gtan, while sam?dhi was consistently translated as ting nge 'dzin. The
> Tibetans did not have to contend with "meditation" or "concentration" or
> "meditative absorption" or "meditative stabilization" used variously for
> these two words in translations, like we have in English translations
> today, and apparently like what occurred in the Chinese translations. Since
> we do not have standardized translation terms, adding the Sanskrit word in
> parentheses is something I find helpful. Nor did the Tibetans have to
> wonder whether a word or phrase was added to the translation by the
> translator. When words or phrases are added, as I believe is often
> necessary in translations of terse Sanskrit into English, I find brackets
> to be helpful.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
James Hartzell, PhD
Basque Center on Cognition, Brain and Language (BCBL), Donostia, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/02aa5b24/attachment.htm>

From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in  Tue Jun  5 18:16:26 2018
From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 23:46:26 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
Message-ID: <CA+H=kyQwagMOPyT8feRbTPKVxKevK8LApQwZBc+f0tSuf-Q1Ow@mail.gmail.com>

I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete / one-sided.
I would include at least the two following positive reasons.

1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also looking
at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing your
translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations of most Sanskrit
philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are extremely
difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at the Sanskrit, I
find the use of brackets in the translation of philosophical texts more
desirable than undesirable.)

2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows
straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of addition or
interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words correspond to
Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to complete the sense,
to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the reader what would have remained
obscure if you had just stuck to rendering the Sanskrit words.

Best
Alex

-- 
Alex Watson
Professor of Indian Philosophy
Head of Philosophy Department
Ashoka University
*https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson
<https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson>*
<http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>


>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here
> <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>
> .
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ?,?
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ?,?
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ?,?
> University of Alberta, Canada
> ?.?
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> ?sas.ualberta.ca?
> ??
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/8a6392af/attachment.htm>

From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch  Tue Jun  5 19:19:52 2018
From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 19:19:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CA+H=kyQwagMOPyT8feRbTPKVxKevK8LApQwZBc+f0tSuf-Q1Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E361F9BD-60AF-41B1-9B7B-AE2EB642632C@unil.ch>

I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the translation is for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use translations to inform themselves about texts that are not the focus of their research, these texts better not misinform their readers.
A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha ends with the words:
?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is the crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it is therefore left untouched here.?
Editions of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha that were made after this translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this translation, most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been composed by the same author.
However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing corresponding to by us. It reads: ita? para? sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam (or: likhitam) ity atropek?ita?. And the question as to the authorship of this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their readers, and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.

Johannes Bronkhorst



On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete / one-sided.
I would include at least the two following positive reasons.

1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing your translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations of most Sanskrit philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are extremely difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at the Sanskrit, I find the use of brackets in the translation of philosophical texts more desirable than undesirable.)

2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of addition or interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words correspond to Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to complete the sense, to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the reader what would have remained obscure if you had just stuck to rendering the Sanskrit words.

Best
Alex

--
Alex Watson
Professor of Indian Philosophy
Head of Philosophy Department
Ashoka University
https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson
[https://www.eventscribe.com/upload/planner/bannersNEW/16902EventBanner2340_48.png]<http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>>
To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com<mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Bcc:
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here<https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?<http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
??

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/a3755b4c/attachment.htm>

From birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at  Tue Jun  5 20:48:11 2018
From: birgit.kellner at oeaw.ac.at (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 22:48:11 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <E361F9BD-60AF-41B1-9B7B-AE2EB642632C@unil.ch>
Message-ID: <166f7067-f394-c05b-27e7-c476cdea6bb7@oeaw.ac.at>

I find the positive reasons adduced by Alex also convincing. I am 
wondering sometimes whether instead of the "translation without 
brackets" approach it might not be better to begin devising a new genre, 
one that does not announce itself as "translation", but more of a 
paraphrase or interpretive rendering which somehow makes transparent (1) 
that someone renders a Sanskrit text in another language (English or 
German or ...) and thus follows the logic / narrative and terminology of 
the text and (2) that interpretative work has gone into this rendering 
that makes it expressing one among several perhaps equally possible 
interpretations. Perhaps the problem is not one of how to translate, but 
that translation is overcharged with too many different and divergent 
functions, and expectations.

I don't find Dominik's argument to the effect that using brackets in a 
translation is premised on the assumption that the Sanskrit text is 
incoherent particularly convincing. Authors of texts make assumptions 
about what their audience knows, and expect them to fill in gaps. We are 
at a historical distance from these authors, and which gaps to fill, and 
how, is interpretative work we have to do, and (now going back to Alex' 
points about intellectual honesty) it may be advisable to signal where 
more of this work has been required, for instance, by brackets. This 
isn't a question of incoherence, it is perhaps a question of recognizing 
a legitimate multiplicity of different renderings.

Best regards, Birgit Kellner



Am 2018-06-05 um 21:19 schrieb Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY:
>
> I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the 
> translation is for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use 
> translations to inform themselves about texts that are not the focus 
> of their research, these texts better not misinform their readers.
>
> A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation of 
> the /Sarvadar?anasa?graha/ ends with the words:
>
> ?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is 
> the crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it 
> is therefore left untouched here.?
>
> Editions of the /Sarvadar?anasa?graha/ that were made after this 
> translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some 
> manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this 
> translation, most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been 
> composed by the same author.
>
> However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing 
> corresponding to /by us/. It reads: /ita? para? 
> sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam /(or: 
> /likhitam/) /ity atropek?ita?/. And the question as to the authorship 
> of this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their 
> readers, and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.
>
>
> Johannes Bronkhorst
>
>
>
>
>> On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete / 
>> one-sided.
>> I would include at least the two following positive reasons.
>>
>> 1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also 
>> looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing 
>> your translation with the Sanskrit.? (Since translations of most 
>> Sanskrit philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are 
>> extremely difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at 
>> the Sanskrit, I find the use of brackets in the translation of 
>> philosophical texts more desirable than undesirable.)
>>
>> 2. Intellectual honesty.? Use of brackets signals what follows 
>> straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of 
>> addition or interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words 
>> correspond to Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to 
>> complete the sense, to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the 
>> reader what would have remained obscure if you had just stuck to 
>> rendering the Sanskrit words.
>>
>> Best
>> Alex
>>
>> --
>> Alex Watson
>> Professor of Indian Philosophy
>> Head of Philosophy Department
>> Ashoka University
>> _https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson_
>> <http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>
>>
>>
>>     ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>     From:?Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>>
>>     To:?Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>>
>>     Cc:?Indology <indology at list.indology.info
>>     <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>     Bcc:
>>     Date:?Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
>>     Subject:?Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
>>     Your question presses a big red button for me :-) My thoughts are
>>     here
>>     <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>.
>>
>>     --
>>     Professor Dominik Wujastyk
>>     <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>>     ?,?
>>
>>     Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>>     ?,?
>>
>>     Department of History and Classics
>>     <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>>     ?,?
>>     University of Alberta, Canada
>>     ?.?
>>
>>     South Asia at the U of A:
>>     ?sas.ualberta.ca? <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
>>     ??
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info 
>> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's 
>> managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
>> or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
----
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
A-1020 Vienna
Austria
Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410
http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/ffd62edf/attachment.htm>

From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Tue Jun  5 21:50:09 2018
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 23:50:09 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <166f7067-f394-c05b-27e7-c476cdea6bb7@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CAETY2G2iraUHg6pT=LodqeFkPgqKBkHfepBrBjiUmp=+MPP8zg@mail.gmail.com>

On a related note, it might be worth looking at Eva Wilden's introduction
to her new edition and translation of the Akan????u, where the style of
translation is specifically addressed and defended. I'm afraid I don't have
the volumes at hand  and so cannot give an exact page reference, but they
will soon be freely available online.  In any case, the style and purpose
of a translation are certainly contingent on many factors.

I'm also not entirely sure about the label "Germanism" and the sweeping
statements about Germans. I've read this passage to several Germans
including my students, who regularly translate Sanskrit into German. The
remarks don't seem to hold much water (any more ?). Furthermore, one may
have a look at the translation of the Durgha?av?tti by Louis Renou (a
Frenchman), in which quite a bit of text is placed between (). On the flip
side, Geldner's translation of the ?gveda is rather light on the ()'s.

As for Kielhorn's translation of the Paribh??endu?ekhara, I'm not sure the
()'s are all that much of a hindrance and certainly very helpful at times,
but should they still be seen as a fault:

eko hi do?o gu?asa?nip?te nimajjat?ndo? kira?e?v iv??ka? //

All the Best,
Victor

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I find the positive reasons adduced by Alex also convincing. I am
> wondering sometimes whether instead of the "translation without brackets"
> approach it might not be better to begin devising a new genre, one that
> does not announce itself as "translation", but more of a paraphrase or
> interpretive rendering which somehow makes transparent (1) that someone
> renders a Sanskrit text in another language (English or German or ...) and
> thus follows the logic / narrative and terminology of the text and (2) that
> interpretative work has gone into this rendering that makes it expressing
> one among several perhaps equally possible interpretations. Perhaps the
> problem is not one of how to translate, but that translation is overcharged
> with too many different and divergent functions, and expectations.
>
> I don't find Dominik's argument to the effect that using brackets in a
> translation is premised on the assumption that the Sanskrit text is
> incoherent particularly convincing. Authors of texts make assumptions about
> what their audience knows, and expect them to fill in gaps. We are at a
> historical distance from these authors, and which gaps to fill, and how, is
> interpretative work we have to do, and (now going back to Alex' points
> about intellectual honesty) it may be advisable to signal where more of
> this work has been required, for instance, by brackets. This isn't a
> question of incoherence, it is perhaps a question of recognizing a
> legitimate multiplicity of different renderings.
>
> Best regards, Birgit Kellner
>
>
>
> Am 2018-06-05 um 21:19 schrieb Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY:
>
> I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the translation is
> for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use translations to inform
> themselves about texts that are not the focus of their research, these
> texts better not misinform their readers.
>
> A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation of the
> *Sarvadar?anasa?graha* ends with the words:
>
> ?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is the
> crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it is
> therefore left untouched here.?
>
> Editions of the *Sarvadar?anasa?graha* that were made after this
> translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some
> manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this translation,
> most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been composed by the
> same author.
>
> However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing
> corresponding to *by us*. It reads: *ita? para?
> sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam *(or:
> *likhitam*) *ity atropek?ita?*. And the question as to the authorship of
> this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their readers,
> and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.
>
>
> Johannes Bronkhorst
>
>
>
> On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete /
> one-sided.
> I would include at least the two following positive reasons.
>
> 1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also
> looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing your
> translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations of most Sanskrit
> philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are extremely
> difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at the Sanskrit, I
> find the use of brackets in the translation of philosophical texts more
> desirable than undesirable.)
>
> 2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows
> straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of addition or
> interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words correspond to
> Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to complete the sense,
> to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the reader what would have remained
> obscure if you had just stuck to rendering the Sanskrit words.
>
> Best
> Alex
>
> --
> Alex Watson
> Professor of Indian Philosophy
> Head of Philosophy Department
> Ashoka University
> *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson
> <https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson>*
> <http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>
>
>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>> To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
>> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here
>> <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>
>> .
>>
>> --
>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>> ?,?
>>
>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>> ?,?
>>
>> Department of History and Classics
>> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>> ?,?
>> University of Alberta, Canada
>> ?.?
>>
>> South Asia at the U of A:
>>
>> ?sas.ualberta.ca?
>> ??
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> ----
> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
> Director
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
> A-1020 Vienna
> Austria
> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/297c0702/attachment.htm>

From CoseruC at cofc.edu  Tue Jun  5 22:20:34 2018
From: CoseruC at cofc.edu (Coseru, Christian)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 22:20:34 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <166f7067-f394-c05b-27e7-c476cdea6bb7@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <FDB2893F-9D9E-459B-876D-5FA748BAE4DE@cofc.edu>

To follow up on Johannes Bronkhorst?s point about readership, it seems obvious that there are two broad categories of readers of translations from Sanskrit texts: Sanskritists and non-Sanskritists. Since the only way non-Sanskritists have access to Sanskrit texts is via translations in the language their are most fluent in (e.g., English, German, Japanese), the question becomes: should Sanskritists serve their own community or the reading academic community at large (to say nothing of the general public)?

Of course, in practice Sanskritists sever both demographics, but despite the good points about honesty, interpretive preferences, and purpose that Alex and Birgit raise, the use of square brackets confounds the non-specialists, and often makes the text a lot less inviting than it actually is. One might be tempted in this context to note that all translation is in some sense an interpretation since, as the late Luis O G?mez once quipped, the "only perfect translation that can be is the original itself."

One solution to this conundrum might be to adopt a two-tiered translation model, with a bracketed version for specialists and one without for the broader academic readership. In some respects, that two-tiered model exists already, which is why the issues was raise in the first place.

Christian Coseru




On Jun 5, 2018, at 4:48 PM, Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:


I find the positive reasons adduced by Alex also convincing. I am wondering sometimes whether instead of the "translation without brackets" approach it might not be better to begin devising a new genre, one that does not announce itself as "translation", but more of a paraphrase or interpretive rendering which somehow makes transparent (1) that someone renders a Sanskrit text in another language (English or German or ...) and thus follows the logic / narrative and terminology of the text and (2) that interpretative work has gone into this rendering that makes it expressing one among several perhaps equally possible interpretations. Perhaps the problem is not one of how to translate, but that translation is overcharged with too many different and divergent functions, and expectations.

I don't find Dominik's argument to the effect that using brackets in a translation is premised on the assumption that the Sanskrit text is incoherent particularly convincing. Authors of texts make assumptions about what their audience knows, and expect them to fill in gaps. We are at a historical distance from these authors, and which gaps to fill, and how, is interpretative work we have to do, and (now going back to Alex' points about intellectual honesty) it may be advisable to signal where more of this work has been required, for instance, by brackets. This isn't a question of incoherence, it is perhaps a question of recognizing a legitimate multiplicity of different renderings.

Best regards, Birgit Kellner


Am 2018-06-05 um 21:19 schrieb Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY:
I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the translation is for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use translations to inform themselves about texts that are not the focus of their research, these texts better not misinform their readers.
A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha ends with the words:
?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is the crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it is therefore left untouched here.?
Editions of the Sarvadar?anasa?graha that were made after this translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this translation, most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been composed by the same author.
However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing corresponding to by us. It reads: ita? para? sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam (or: likhitam) ity atropek?ita?. And the question as to the authorship of this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their readers, and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.

Johannes Bronkhorst



On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete / one-sided.
I would include at least the two following positive reasons.

1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing your translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations of most Sanskrit philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are extremely difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at the Sanskrit, I find the use of brackets in the translation of philosophical texts more desirable than undesirable.)

2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of addition or interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words correspond to Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to complete the sense, to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the reader what would have remained obscure if you had just stuck to rendering the Sanskrit words.

Best
Alex

--
Alex Watson
Professor of Indian Philosophy
Head of Philosophy Department
Ashoka University
https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fashokauniversity.academia.edu%2FAlexWatson&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=Jk2X1xPzDY2iIPnwQGm10CAbwP5UUx4uxINAauuyrNE%3D&reserved=0>
[https://www.eventscribe.com/upload/planner/bannersNEW/16902EventBanner2340_48.png]<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aas-in-asia2018.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=cYBWJR0wj3xJcSWX8LuSXSXdp5%2B7xPQAPVAq6dHqDOw%3D&reserved=0>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>>
To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com<mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Bcc:
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcikitsa.blogspot.com%2F2016%2F04%2Fon-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=3Fg36ZQaldIL3%2FPfFe0AKn21lYGKjuPebEhEsAQj784%3D&reserved=0>.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fualberta.academia.edu%2FDominikWujastyk&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=zzBI9KvVGYZ%2Fd5U%2FL40nAz1K%2BFN7B6G6n6ddzPd%2F9uE%3D&reserved=0>
?,?

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
?,?

Department of History and Classics<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistoryandclassics.ualberta.ca%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=o6UaM%2BCRg0JFWnGvX6B66eCvoD%2FV2PW%2FDkUi%2FyuOiwE%3D&reserved=0>
?,?
University of Alberta, Canada
?.?

South Asia at the U of A:

?sas.ualberta.ca?<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsas.ualberta.ca%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=dQt73XzS2E5NDuJNxVv2ZLMKMZVzNcAyeq8IHiwSSew%3D&reserved=0>
??

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=sEVmWZ0AGeBt1%2FaceVOZ99dYkOFldY29TUSJhqcPl4g%3D&reserved=0> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=sEVmWZ0AGeBt1%2FaceVOZ99dYkOFldY29TUSJhqcPl4g%3D&reserved=0> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
----
Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
Director
Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
A-1020 Vienna
Austria
Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410
http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fikga.oeaw.ac.at&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=2NYarjoGIwxUHd0WoFqkdDeMEQeHU%2F%2FXXL9l4PlbE8c%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792c011ed1ea42154edc08d5cb25c1da%7Ce285d438dbba4a4c941c593ba422deac%7C0%7C0%7C636638285386269930&sdata=sEVmWZ0AGeBt1%2FaceVOZ99dYkOFldY29TUSJhqcPl4g%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/71ab5e35/attachment.htm>

From hermantull at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 22:33:14 2018
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 18:33:14 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <166f7067-f394-c05b-27e7-c476cdea6bb7@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNhbpHD9oNnyX08Fa9OEqGo0O0aV_MYjSO7qh-Deut_gFg@mail.gmail.com>

Birgit's point is one I have mulled over for several years now. To
"translate" is to bring something from one language (place, context) into
another. And, yes, that may require quite a lot of interpreting,
"paraphrasing," etc. It is a unique art.

But, underlying this is that, at least in my case (and I suspect this is
true for many of us on this list), I was never trained in the art of
translation. Language and linguistics, even history...yes, but not
translation per se. When I "translate," I try to capture the original in my
"translation," but is that "translating,"? Or, just an attempt to represent
my historical-linguistic inquiries?

An interesting (and fun) read that looks at some of these issues is
O'Flaherty's (Doniger's) essay, "On Translating Sanskrit Myths" in Radice
and Reynolds, The Translator's art: essays in honour of Betty Radice.
Harmondsworth: Penguin. 1987.

Herman Tull

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:48 PM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I find the positive reasons adduced by Alex also convincing. I am
> wondering sometimes whether instead of the "translation without brackets"
> approach it might not be better to begin devising a new genre, one that
> does not announce itself as "translation", but more of a paraphrase or
> interpretive rendering which somehow makes transparent (1) that someone
> renders a Sanskrit text in another language (English or German or ...) and
> thus follows the logic / narrative and terminology of the text and (2) that
> interpretative work has gone into this rendering that makes it expressing
> one among several perhaps equally possible interpretations. Perhaps the
> problem is not one of how to translate, but that translation is overcharged
> with too many different and divergent functions, and expectations.
>
> I don't find Dominik's argument to the effect that using brackets in a
> translation is premised on the assumption that the Sanskrit text is
> incoherent particularly convincing. Authors of texts make assumptions about
> what their audience knows, and expect them to fill in gaps. We are at a
> historical distance from these authors, and which gaps to fill, and how, is
> interpretative work we have to do, and (now going back to Alex' points
> about intellectual honesty) it may be advisable to signal where more of
> this work has been required, for instance, by brackets. This isn't a
> question of incoherence, it is perhaps a question of recognizing a
> legitimate multiplicity of different renderings.
>
> Best regards, Birgit Kellner
>
>
>
> Am 2018-06-05 um 21:19 schrieb Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY:
>
> I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the translation is
> for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use translations to inform
> themselves about texts that are not the focus of their research, these
> texts better not misinform their readers.
>
> A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation of the
> *Sarvadar?anasa?graha* ends with the words:
>
> ?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is the
> crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it is
> therefore left untouched here.?
>
> Editions of the *Sarvadar?anasa?graha* that were made after this
> translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some
> manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this translation,
> most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been composed by the
> same author.
>
> However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing
> corresponding to *by us*. It reads: *ita? para?
> sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam *(or:
> *likhitam*) *ity atropek?ita?*. And the question as to the authorship of
> this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their readers,
> and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.
>
>
> Johannes Bronkhorst
>
>
>
> On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete /
> one-sided.
> I would include at least the two following positive reasons.
>
> 1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also
> looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing your
> translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations of most Sanskrit
> philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are extremely
> difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at the Sanskrit, I
> find the use of brackets in the translation of philosophical texts more
> desirable than undesirable.)
>
> 2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows
> straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of addition or
> interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words correspond to
> Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to complete the sense,
> to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the reader what would have remained
> obscure if you had just stuck to rendering the Sanskrit words.
>
> Best
> Alex
>
> --
> Alex Watson
> Professor of Indian Philosophy
> Head of Philosophy Department
> Ashoka University
> *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson
> <https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson>*
> <http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>
>
>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>> To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
>> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here
>> <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>
>> .
>>
>> --
>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>> ?,?
>>
>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>> ?,?
>>
>> Department of History and Classics
>> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>> ?,?
>> University of Alberta, Canada
>> ?.?
>>
>> South Asia at the U of A:
>>
>> ?sas.ualberta.ca?
>> ??
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
>
> --
> ----
> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
> Director
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
> A-1020 Vienna
> Austria
> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/ef967962/attachment.htm>

From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 23:38:06 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 01:38:06 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAFdBLNhbpHD9oNnyX08Fa9OEqGo0O0aV_MYjSO7qh-Deut_gFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO14j387j712HDv20soFvBrUL6_Hx=r62GT8p+w3qEsjL_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have seen brackets used for lots of different things:

1. elements of meaning that are *presupposed* by the Sanskrit expression
and wouldn't otherwise make sense to English readers, e.g. "contact [with
the sense-faculties]" for sa?nikar?a. "Contact" on its own won't convey a
specific enough meaning, unless the phrase "contact with the
sense-faculties" has been used in the same context. There are three types
of presupposition, as far as I can see:
 - 1a. lexical (sa?nikar?a- basically means indriyasa?nikar?a-)
 - 1b. syntactic (a word syntactically requires another word that is not
expressed, e.g., the agent/patient of an absolute participle)
 - 1c. pragmatic (if "Manu" has been mentioned four verses previously, and
the word smr?ti shows up, we can assume it's Manu's); most cases of
anaphoric parentheses (where the scholar replaces an "it" or a "that" with
its antecedent in parentheses) fall into this category.
2. elements of meaning that the Sanskrit language just does not encode in
the same way as European languages, e.g., instances where no agent is
expressed in the Sanskrit, but English either requires or prefers one.
 - 2a. brackets are often used to introduce specificity or individuation
that Sanskrit doesn't generally express, hence "their [own]," "every
[individual] word," etc.
3. expansions of a thought that has been expressed in an extremely
compressed way (e.g., a comparison is made between two things, but the
common property is omitted); cases of parenthetical paraphrase probably
fall into this category as well.
4. discursive and pragmatic shifts that are conventionalized in certain
genres (e.g., rendering nanu as "[One might object as follows:]")
5. bitextuality (the parentheses offer an alternative set of meanings for
the same text)

Others can probably add to this list. Case (3) is probably what Alex has in
mind, where texts like the ?l?kav?rttika or Pram??av?rttika just seem like
nonsense without such expansions, although my guess is that many such
expansions probably do "follow straightforwardly from the Sanskrit," and
probably belong more to case (1) or (2) than to case (3). Sanskrit drops
subject and object arguments all the time, and if we're not totally certain
of what the implicit argument is, we might as well be honest about it. But
whether that honesty has to involve parentheses is another question. The
use of parentheses for case (3) is completely arbitrary, in the sense that
one could use "speakers," or marginal notes, or some similar contrivance
(ditto for 5). In case (2), which is on reflection pretty similar to case
(1), I don't quite understand why parentheses are used for some cases of an
English element of meaning being merely "implicit" in the Sanskrit (e.g.,
particularity, contrast, sequence) and not others (e.g., definiteness or
indefiniteness), and overuse of these kinds of parentheses creates the
impression that one is reading first-year Sanskrit exams.

Most of the specific examples that have come up in this discussion don't
seem to require parentheses at all. I wonder if Professor Bronkhorst, for
instance, would have been happier if Cowell and Gough had simply omitted
"by us" than if they had put it in brackets. By the way, Indologists are
not the only people on earth to appreciate that texts are difficult,
subtle, allusive, that they have multiple interpretations, etc. But we do
seem to be the only people who communicate our knowledge and appreciation
of these facts by this particular typographic tick.

2018-06-06 0:33 GMT+02:00 Herman Tull via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Birgit's point is one I have mulled over for several years now. To
> "translate" is to bring something from one language (place, context) into
> another. And, yes, that may require quite a lot of interpreting,
> "paraphrasing," etc. It is a unique art.
>
> But, underlying this is that, at least in my case (and I suspect this is
> true for many of us on this list), I was never trained in the art of
> translation. Language and linguistics, even history...yes, but not
> translation per se. When I "translate," I try to capture the original in my
> "translation," but is that "translating,"? Or, just an attempt to represent
> my historical-linguistic inquiries?
>
> An interesting (and fun) read that looks at some of these issues is
> O'Flaherty's (Doniger's) essay, "On Translating Sanskrit Myths" in Radice
> and Reynolds, The Translator's art: essays in honour of Betty Radice.
> Harmondsworth: Penguin. 1987.
>
> Herman Tull
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:48 PM Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> I find the positive reasons adduced by Alex also convincing. I am
>> wondering sometimes whether instead of the "translation without brackets"
>> approach it might not be better to begin devising a new genre, one that
>> does not announce itself as "translation", but more of a paraphrase or
>> interpretive rendering which somehow makes transparent (1) that someone
>> renders a Sanskrit text in another language (English or German or ...) and
>> thus follows the logic / narrative and terminology of the text and (2) that
>> interpretative work has gone into this rendering that makes it expressing
>> one among several perhaps equally possible interpretations. Perhaps the
>> problem is not one of how to translate, but that translation is overcharged
>> with too many different and divergent functions, and expectations.
>>
>> I don't find Dominik's argument to the effect that using brackets in a
>> translation is premised on the assumption that the Sanskrit text is
>> incoherent particularly convincing. Authors of texts make assumptions about
>> what their audience knows, and expect them to fill in gaps. We are at a
>> historical distance from these authors, and which gaps to fill, and how, is
>> interpretative work we have to do, and (now going back to Alex' points
>> about intellectual honesty) it may be advisable to signal where more of
>> this work has been required, for instance, by brackets. This isn't a
>> question of incoherence, it is perhaps a question of recognizing a
>> legitimate multiplicity of different renderings.
>>
>> Best regards, Birgit Kellner
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 2018-06-05 um 21:19 schrieb Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY:
>>
>> I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the translation
>> is for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use translations to inform
>> themselves about texts that are not the focus of their research, these
>> texts better not misinform their readers.
>>
>> A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation of
>> the *Sarvadar?anasa?graha* ends with the words:
>>
>> ?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is the
>> crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it is
>> therefore left untouched here.?
>>
>> Editions of the *Sarvadar?anasa?graha* that were made after this
>> translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some
>> manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this translation,
>> most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been composed by the
>> same author.
>>
>> However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing
>> corresponding to *by us*. It reads: *ita? para?
>> sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam *(or:
>> *likhitam*) *ity atropek?ita?*. And the question as to the authorship of
>> this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their readers,
>> and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.
>>
>>
>> Johannes Bronkhorst
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete /
>> one-sided.
>> I would include at least the two following positive reasons.
>>
>> 1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also
>> looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are comparing your
>> translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations of most Sanskrit
>> philosophical texts, especially the more technical ones, are extremely
>> difficult to understand without simultaneously looking at the Sanskrit, I
>> find the use of brackets in the translation of philosophical texts more
>> desirable than undesirable.)
>>
>> 2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows
>> straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of addition or
>> interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words correspond to
>> Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to complete the sense,
>> to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the reader what would have remained
>> obscure if you had just stuck to rendering the Sanskrit words.
>>
>> Best
>> Alex
>>
>> --
>> Alex Watson
>> Professor of Indian Philosophy
>> Head of Philosophy Department
>> Ashoka University
>> *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson
>> <https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson>*
>> <http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>>> To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
>>> Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts are here
>>> <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>
>>> .
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk
>>> <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>>> ?,?
>>>
>>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>>> ?,?
>>>
>>> Department of History and Classics
>>> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>>> ?,?
>>> University of Alberta, Canada
>>> ?.?
>>>
>>> South Asia at the U of A:
>>>
>>> ?sas.ualberta.ca?
>>> ??
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----
>> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
>> Director
>> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
>> A-1020 Vienna
>> Austria
>> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
>> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/c06794dc/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 02:49:58 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 20:49:58 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYutJD0NAdV0_dVRwaS-Zt-gj=1q-pFHXDMROaQdLQMUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sincere thanks to Dan, Jonathan, and Matthew, for very helpful comments and
corrections to my post (Dan Lusthaus? reply to the list inadvertently went
only to me, so it is given below). One of the great values of this forum is
that posts like mine can get quick feedback from experts in the field. This
can save a person from veering too far off the path of accuracy in thought
and speech on a given subject.



Since the subject is no longer ?Brackets in modern Sanskrit translations,?
I have changed the heading to ?Accuracy in translations.?



Thank you, Dan, for providing a better perspective on the Chinese
translations of the Buddhist canon. My brief generalizations did not do
them justice. Yes, as you and Jonathan both pointed out, one cannot really
say that Buddhism did not flourish in China. More Buddhists rely on Chinese
translations than on Tibetan translations. By my rather poor choice of the
term ?flourish? I intended the vigorous interaction between the various
schools of thought seen in Tibetan Buddhism and the consequent growth and
development (?flourish? in that sense) of these schools of thought up to
the present. This is in contrast to D. T. Suzuki?s observation made in
1898: ?. . . in China where Buddhism is at present in a comatose state?
(?Notes on the M?dhyamika Philosophy,? *Journal of the Buddhist Text and
Anthropological Society*, vol. 6, part 3, p. 20).



Your example of the one Tibetan word 'dus pa translating both Sanskrit
words sam?ha and sa?cita, thereby obscuring the view that there are three
items rather than two, well illustrates an important fact about the Tibetan
translations. Since Tibetan has a considerably smaller vocabulary than
Sanskrit, a single Tibetan word must often do duty for translating two or
more Sanskrit words. This indeed causes loss of precision and resultant
inaccuracy, and explains the other example you gave of the Tibetan word
?don? translating several Sanskrit words.



I appreciate your comments on the ?myth of the alleged disparity between
the Chinese and Tibetan translations,? i.e., the latter being ?more literal
or accurate.? What has contributed to this myth (if it is one), are the
many introductions to editions and translations of Sanskrit texts where the
editors or translators say that the Tibetan translations were of
indispensable help, while the Chinese translations were of more limited
help. A single example will suffice, this from Gadjin Nagao?s *Index to the
Mah?y?na-s?tr?la?k?ra *(Part Two: Tibetan-Sanskrit & Chinese-Sanskrit, pp.
v-vi): ?As is generally known, Tibetan translations coincide very well with
Sanskrit originals. This is the case with our text. . . . On the contrary,
the case is quite different with the Chinese version. First, in our Chinese
text, we have many expressions which convey only the *meaning *but not
the *word-form.
*For example, . . . These are by no means literal translations. The reader
is, therefore, requested to be cautious of these *equivalents *and is
requested to go back to the original text to understand them in their
respective context.?



Thank you, Jonathan and Matthew, for pointing out that my use of the word
?literary? for the Chinese translations, in contrast to literal for the
Tibetan translations, was ?incautious? (Jonathan), a ?red herring?
(Matthew). I gratefully accept this corrective. My use of literary versus
literal was indeed far too simplistic, the use of ?literary? being simply
inaccurate.  What I intended by it was something along the lines of ?less
literal.? The Chinese translators were free to try to find an equivalent
that well expressed the meaning in a given context, while the Tibetan
translators were often constrained to use a standardized translation term,
whether or not it well expressed the meaning in a given context.



I will try to refine my model to bring it within the bounds of accuracy.
Even with all the examples cited in the replies (thanks also to James), of
Chinese translations being in many cases literal, and of Tibetan
translations being in many cases not literal, I think that valid
generalizations can be made. When we have a large number of translations,
the entire Buddhist canon, the sample is large enough to allow for
reasonably accurate conclusions. I believe it is true to say that the
Tibetan translations, in general, are significantly more literally accurate
than the Chinese translations. I do think that this had a profound impact
on the development of Buddhism in Tibet and in China, respectively.


I hope that this rather long post has clarified why I think that Buddhism
has developed more vigorously in Tibet than in China. Suzuki?s comment
about Buddhism being comatose in China was made before Mao and Communism. I
regard the cumulative evidence of editors and translators of Sanskrit texts
to have generated a reasonably accurate picture of the differences between
the Tibetan translations and the Chinese translations, in general. That is,
that the Tibetan translations are more literal, and that the Chinese
translations are less literal, in general, with an important feature of the
Tibetan translations being the standardized translation of technical terms.
The consistently same translation of technical terms throughout the Tibetan
Buddhist canon would have provided a more stable basis for the various
schools of thought to build upon.

With thanks and best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:

> Like David, I was going to avoid getting into the crosshairs on this,
> despite agreeing with the Jean-Luc and the beginning of David?s response.
> But David's ?myth? of the alleged disparity between the Chinese and Tibetan
> translations and even the supposed disparity in social consequences, a myth
> that has been in circulation for too long in Buddhist studies, requires
> some comment.
>
> First, as to the agreement. For exactly the reason that David mentions,
> brackets (and parentheses) should separate what can legitimately be
> attributed to the original underlying text and what is being added for
> clarity by the translator. Over the years, many undergraduate students have
> written papers or essays spinning out detailed and clever interpretations
> of texts they read in translation, but primarily extrapolating and
> unpacking implications of a word that they are unaware has no counterpart
> in the original text.
>
> Sanskrit in many genres puts a premium on conciseness, and can sometimes
> be so condensed as to require a bit of extra padding in translation to make
> explicit what is tacit. On such occasions brackets and parentheses may be
> optional at the discretion of a translator. And there is a principle by
> which things already stated needn?t be repeated, but remain implicit in
> later passages by context. Then, too, filling in the gaps for clarity in a
> translation is often necessary, and whether to use brackets or parentheses
> can be optional (perhaps determined by how much extra is being supplied).
> But there can be entire arguments that are presented in cryptic, ellitical
> shorthand; then, depending on the degree of confidence a translator has at
> identifying the fully developed argument, brackets, and or parentheses, and
> or additional annotations, may be necessary.
>
> It is true that a certain stylistic vogue took hold during the 20th c.
> that way overdid such interpolations, so that frequently, not just
> occasionally, more than 50% of a translation resided in brackets that added
> little clarity but made reading more difficut rather than easier. So the
> push-back against overuse of brackets and parentheses is understandable and
> necessary. As Buddha might recommend, however, a middle way ? a more
> efficient and effective use of interpolative graphics rather than banning
> them altogether, should be the goal.
>
> As for the myths:
>
> First, the Chinese translations are, in general, no less literal or
> accurate than the Tibetan. Both take liberties, and one reason another 20th
> century vogue ? back-translating texts from Tibetan and/or Chinese into
> Sanskrit ? has gone out of style is the continual recovery of lost Indic
> texts (not always in pure Sanskrit) which highlighted how inaccurate the
> back-translations often were, whether constructed from Chinese, Tibetan or
> both.
>
> The idea that TIbetan translations are more literal or accurate is a myth
> that doesn?t hold up to scrutiny. Matt Kapstein?s recent comments on this
> list about the calques of Tibetan titles for Indian texts is only the tip
> of the iceberg. Sometimes the Chinese texts are more accurate than the
> Tibetan. One example should suffice. In Dign?ga?s ?lambana-par?k?? for
> which only a few passages survive in Sanskrit, but three Chinese
> translations (by Param?rtha, Xuanzang, and Yijing ? three of the most
> famous translators, the Yijing translation embedded within his translation
> of Dharmap?la?s commentary which also doesn?t survive in Sanskrit) and a
> pair in Tibetan (the verses alone, and another with the verses inserted
> into the svav?tti) plus a translation of Vin?tadeva?s commentary which, as
> chance would have it, quotes and relies heavily on Dharmap?la?s commentary.
> The most ?literal? (and therefore difficult to decipher) is the Dharmap?la;
> one can recognize many of the parallels between it and the Tibetan version
> of the Vin?tadeva, but the latter is often equally cryptic in places (a
> group working on it frequently asked a group working on the Chinese for
> help clarifying passages). And here is perhaps the most significant example
> of where the accuracy of the Chinese easily eclipses the Tibetan. Dign?ga
> devotes five of the eight verses to refuting three different theories of
> how atoms could serve as ?lambana:
>
> 1. that the ?lambana is a param??u,
> 2. that it is a sam?ha of param??us, and
> 3. that it is a sa?cita (or sa?cita-?k?ra) of param??us (Dharmap?la
> differentiates this from a param??u by calling it an a?u, which is
> considered the minimum amount of param??us necessary to be perceived - not
> all discussions in India adhered to that terminological distinction)
>
> The main difference between two and three is that, in the jargon of some
> Buddhists of the day, a sam?ha is simply a praj?apti, and thus cannot cause
> anything, including being unable to cause a perception, and thus cannot be
> an ?lambana, while a sa?cita is, its advocates claim, a dravya and thus can
> cause a perception as well as convey its own svar?pa to the perception ?
> the two requirements Dign?ga stipulates for an ?lambana to be an ?lambana
> (based on the abhidharmic assumptions of his p?rvapak?as).
>
> All three Chinese versions distinguish the three theories by using
> different terms for each; the Tibetan uses only ?dus pa for both the second
> and third theories, the result being that when a respected Tibetan geshe
> was asked to give instruction on the text for the group preparing a
> translation from Tibetan, the geshe was surprised to learn there was a
> third position (and the book the group published makes serious
> equivocations about whether there is or isn?t a third position ? despite
> the fact that the Vin?tadeva text preserved in Tibetan explicitly announces
> the third position as ?the third? when coming to it (but the anonymous
> Tibetan translator, perhaps the same translator[s] that translated the
> verses and verse+svav?tti versions, also used ?dus pa for sam?ha and
> sa?cita in that text as well). On the other hand, the easiest of the
> translations to read?and *least* literal?is Xuanzang?s translation which
> takes a number of interesting liberties ? some of which, like the practice
> of the aforementioned undergraduates, became the fodder for extensive
> doctrinal exegesis in East Asian circles, unrecognized as Xuanzang?s own
> contributions. He didn?t use brackets or parentheses.
>
> To further easily test whether Tibetan is as isomorphic to Sanskrit as the
> propaganda insists, start with the Tibetan term don. Usually presumed to be
> the Tibetan for artha, in fact, according to the online Tibetan translation
> tool at http://www.thlib.org/reference/dictionaries/
> tibetan-dictionary/translate.php it is used as an attested equivalent for k?rya,
> k?ryatva, parak?rya, artha, arthatas, bh?va, vastu [and I would add that
> yul, the main Tibetan equivalent for vi?aya has a similar spread and
> overlap - the translation tool lists de?a.di?,  prade?a, *-antara, vi?aya,
>  gamya as equivalents, but I would suggest in practice there are more].
> Not only is there no one-to-one literal correspondence, which can
> complicate discussions of epistemology when terminological precision is
> required, but inflections can also get murky. Chinese translations,
> incidentally, can be fastidious about indicating Sanskrit inflections
> (though many modern readers overlook them).
>
> As for Buddhism being successful in Tibet but not China ? there are more
> East Asian Buddhists, all of whom rely on the Chinese canon, than there
> have ever been Tibetan Buddhists. When the PRC relaxed its suppression of
> all religions starting in the 1980s, Buddhism, which had been underground,
> reemerged into plain sight in vast numbers, and continues to flourish.
> Despite being persecuted for centuries by Confucians in Korea, Buddhism
> remains the largest religion there, and one needn?t point out its continued
> cultural significance in Japan.
>
> Dan Lusthaus
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/85d076fc/attachment.htm>

From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 03:31:25 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 18 21:31:25 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Der im Traum pferdlos geritten ist (Re: Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4+OQ2bctVwpjhAeHOdHbKWSggqPDTFJbsQ5QBiv6XKW7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeZUZOqVUJj5GvYJuTOH4nfBWOaisxMs+Pt0FJUa6YvyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 at 02:56, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> there is another issue with the Kielhorn quotation, I would say, namely
> that most (or at least much) of the inserted material is not necessary at
> all!
>
> "All of this is inadmissible" is EXACTLY the same thing as "All of this
> is, however, inadmissible", with or without parentheses.
> Every individual word? Is that somehow different from every word?
> So I'm not entirely sure in this case also why Dominik picked this
> example, although knowing him I would not be surprised if he had this very
> point in mind as well... (and yes, I did not notice the incoherent
> sentences later in the paragraph...)
>

?Yes, @Jonathan, I did indeed think that almost all Kielhorn's
parenthetical additions could be removed without much problem.  But also,
there's just something totally weird about it.  How would a contemporary
reader feel if a German translation of Shakespeare, or an English
translation of Goethe, had this many parenthetical statements?  I think
that we indologists are so inured to this habit of parenthetical
translating that we don't see it with others' eyes.

Or - if we want an example of technical writing, take Tarski's *Introduction
to Logic <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.471634>.  *Written
originally in Polish in 1936, and first translated into "exact" German in
1937, it appeared in the author's own English translation in 1941. There
are no "Kielhorn" parentheses.  None.  The fact that this is the author's
own translation of his own work makes it a particularly telling example, I
think.  To me, this says that someone who fully understands what they are
translating doesn't use parentheses all the time, or ever.

Best,
Dominik


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180605/7e068aa9/attachment.htm>

From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 11:14:10 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 13:14:10 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] "Linguistic paradox & diglossia": Just published & freely available
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoB=jUqqt-OFX-sxGNQgOAw4NvsLSpvrLpe=qoDaPfPXjg@mail.gmail.com>

Article "Linguistic paradox & diglossia"
(De Gruyter Open Linguistics) : Just published & freely available

DOI: 10.1515/opli-2018-0001
https://goo.gl/Rqkw6i

Keywords: Sanskrit; Prakrit; sociolinguistics; ?Hybrid? Sanskrit; Old
Persian; diglossia; emerging languages

Background:
Since the discovery of the Vedas and of the Avesta and since the
decipherment of old Persian inscriptions and of the royal inscriptions of
A?oka,
modern scholarship has made efforts to distinguish and separate
well-defined ancient languages and has tried to link these as discrete
"entities" in a genetic tree.
This has been only partly succesful and we are left with several problems,
including a considerable amount of linguistic evidence that has to be
arranged in the category of "hybrid".
In the study linguistic evidence the view points of "entities", "waves" and
"fields" have their value and their contribution to make to a better
understanding.
Recent scholarship in emerging languages (H. Kloss, ?. Mulja?i?, J.
Goossens, and others) -- e.g. on the development of romance languages, and
on the grammatical standardization of French and Dutch starting in the 16th
century
(L. Maigret, H.L. Spiegel), that of English ONE century later (unless we
count W. Bullokar's rudimentary Pamphlet on Grammar and Amendment of
Orthography) and that of German some TWO centuries later (J.C. Adelung) --
has reached a level of maturity which makes it now possible to shed new
light on the linguistic evidence of some of the most ancient testimonies of
Indian and Indo-European ritual, religious and philosophical poetry and
literature.


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

[image: 1506959459738_Signature]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/5db4408e/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Outlook-1506959459.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 7300 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/5db4408e/attachment.jpg>

From martingansten at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 11:38:48 2018
From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 13:38:48 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO14j387j712HDv20soFvBrUL6_Hx=r62GT8p+w3qEsjL_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8bfdcfcc-3189-daa4-4ca1-8596790b4094@gmail.com>

Andrew Ollett wrote:

> By the way, Indologists are not the only people on earth to appreciate 
> that texts are difficult, subtle, allusive, that they have multiple 
> interpretations, etc. But we do seem to be the only people who 
> communicate our knowledge and appreciation of these facts by this 
> particular typographic tick.

I'm not sure if the last word is a typo for 'tic' or 'trick'. Either 
way, the practice is not confined to Indologists: in my particular area 
of specialization -- the history of astrology -- the use of (mostly 
square or pointed, but sometimes round) brackets to mark insertions is 
pretty much standard practice in translations from several languages 
(and, I would say, mostly for very good reasons, which is not to say 
that I haven't seen them misused). Just pulling a few volumes off my 
shelf/from my hard drive, I see that Burnett and al-Hamdi, Dykes, 
Pingree and Yano all use brackets in their translations from Arabic; 
Denningmann, Frommhold, Gramaglia, Heilen, Holden, H?bner, Knobloch and 
Sch?nberger, Lopilato, Riley and Schmidt, in translations from Greek; 
Dykes and Holden, in translations from Latin; etc. I'm sure there are 
many more examples.

The few translations of astrological texts that I have seen which 
consistently avoid using brackets -- such as Robbins's now somewhat 
dated translation (1940) of the Tetrabiblos -- are, largely for that 
reason, rather unreliable and must be treated with caution by anyone 
wishing to disentangle the actual content of the original from the 
(sometimes necessary) interpretations/interpolations of the translator.

Martin Gansten






From kelleragathe600 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 11:50:23 2018
From: kelleragathe600 at gmail.com (Agathe Keller)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 13:50:23 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call For Papers on H. T. Colebrooke for April 2019 conference in Paris
Message-ID: <01573937-8EF2-4638-A82B-84A826698E8F@gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Please find attached a call for papers for a workshop we are organising in Paris on ?Colebrooke and the Historiography of mathematics and astral science in Sanskrit?, on the 15th and 16th of April 2019, in which Rosanne Rocher (University of Pennsylvania) and Pascale Rabault-Feuerhahn (CNRS) will give Keynote lectures. Titles and abstracts should be sent to Agathe Keller (kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr <mailto:kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr>) before August 30th 2018. Do not hesitate to circulate this call. 
Apologies for cross-postings.

with all best,

Karine Chemla et Agathe Keller
Sphere, Universit? Paris Diderot and CNRS, France

Colebrooke and the Historiography of mathematics and astral sciences in Sanskrit
org by. K. Chemla, A. Keller.

	A bit more than 200 years have elapsed since the publication of Henry Thomas Colebrooke?s Algebra, with Arithmetic and Mensuration, from the Sanscrit of Brahmegupta and Bh?scara. We will grasp this opportunity to organise a two day workshop to be held in Paris on the 15th and 16th of April 2019.The conference will concentrate on Colebrooke?s historiography of mathematics and astral sciences, and here are some of the general questions that we invite contributions to this workshop to tackle:
	In which contexts did Colebrooke?s interest in the mathematics and astral sciences of ancient India take shape? What was the ensuing impact, in Europe and beyond, of the 1817 publication for the writing of the history of mathematics not only in India, but also worldwide? What can be said on how Colebrooke translated and worked with Sanskrit sources dealing with mathematics and astral sciences? How can we situate this work by Colebrooke in the larger context of 18th and 19th century interest for ?oriental mathematics and astronomy?? Does Colebrooke?s early interest for mathematics and astral sciences echo into his other indological studies? Or, reciprocally, does he translate and study texts of history of mathematics and/or astral sciences in continuity with his other indological studies? 
	We are in particular interested in the various social environments with which Colebrooke interacted and in which he carried out his work. For example, we know that Colebrooke had close-knit relations actuaries in London, linguists in Germany and Scottish enlightenment mathematicians. Can we trace more specifically how some of these milieux helped structure research questions in the history of mathematics and astral sciences in South Asia? 
	We are also interested in how Colebrooke chose to translate the Sanskrit sources for which he set out to provide an English translation, and also on the impact of these translations. For example, one could explore why Colebrooke chose to translate some Sanskrit terms, such as the topics of mathematics known under the term vyavah?ras, as ?logistics?. This translation has long endured and is still used sometimes today: Why did he use such a translation, where did it come from, why was it retained for such a long time?




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/7a7ad25f/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/7a7ad25f/attachment-0001.htm>

From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Jun  6 12:54:00 2018
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 08:54:00 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <166f7067-f394-c05b-27e7-c476cdea6bb7@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <8e9c91ef-ec48-0cd4-475f-869c15a45253@sas.upenn.edu>

Using brackets is not that outlandish.  Journalists use them all the 
time when publishing transcripts of oral interviews to maintain fidelity 
to the oral text while elucidating its context. They never struck me as 
obtrusive.

Rosane Rocher

On 6/5/18 4:48 PM, Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> I find the positive reasons adduced by Alex also convincing. I am 
> wondering sometimes whether instead of the "translation without 
> brackets" approach it might not be better to begin devising a new 
> genre, one that does not announce itself as "translation", but more of 
> a paraphrase or interpretive rendering which somehow makes transparent 
> (1) that someone renders a Sanskrit text in another language (English 
> or German or ...) and thus follows the logic / narrative and 
> terminology of the text and (2) that interpretative work has gone into 
> this rendering that makes it expressing one among several perhaps 
> equally possible interpretations. Perhaps the problem is not one of 
> how to translate, but that translation is overcharged with too many 
> different and divergent functions, and expectations.
>
> I don't find Dominik's argument to the effect that using brackets in a 
> translation is premised on the assumption that the Sanskrit text is 
> incoherent particularly convincing. Authors of texts make assumptions 
> about what their audience knows, and expect them to fill in gaps. We 
> are at a historical distance from these authors, and which gaps to 
> fill, and how, is interpretative work we have to do, and (now going 
> back to Alex' points about intellectual honesty) it may be advisable 
> to signal where more of this work has been required, for instance, by 
> brackets. This isn't a question of incoherence, it is perhaps a 
> question of recognizing a legitimate multiplicity of different 
> renderings.
>
> Best regards, Birgit Kellner
>
>
>
> Am 2018-06-05 um 21:19 schrieb Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY:
>>
>> I tend to agree with Alex. Much depends on what readers the 
>> translation is for. Since even professional Sanskritists may use 
>> translations to inform themselves about texts that are not the focus 
>> of their research, these texts better not misinform their readers.
>>
>> A concrete example may clarify this. Cowell and Gough?s translation 
>> of the /Sarvadar?anasa?graha/ ends with the words:
>>
>> ?The system of ?a?kara, which comes next in succession, and which is 
>> the crest-gem of all systems, has been explained by us elsewhere; it 
>> is therefore left untouched here.?
>>
>> Editions of the /Sarvadar?anasa?graha/ that were made after this 
>> translation added a chapter on the ?system of ?a?kara? found in some 
>> manuscripts. Subsequently, and perhaps partly because of this 
>> translation, most scholars accepted that this final chapter had been 
>> composed by the same author.
>>
>> However, the Sanskrit translated by Cowell and Gough has nothing 
>> corresponding to /by us/. It reads: /ita? para? 
>> sarvadar?ana?iroma?ibh?ta? ???karadar?anam anyatra nir?pitam /(or: 
>> /likhitam/) /ity atropek?ita?/. And the question as to the authorship 
>> of this chapter remains open. Cowell and Gough might have done their 
>> readers, and scholarship, a favour by putting [by us] in brackets.
>>
>>
>> Johannes Bronkhorst
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 5 Jun 2018, at 20:16, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY 
>>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I found Dominik's list of reasons for using brackets incomplete / 
>>> one-sided.
>>> I would include at least the two following positive reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. While brackets may disrupt the flow for readers who are not also 
>>> looking at the Sanskrit, they are helpful for those who are 
>>> comparing your translation with the Sanskrit.  (Since translations 
>>> of most Sanskrit philosophical texts, especially the more technical 
>>> ones, are extremely difficult to understand without simultaneously 
>>> looking at the Sanskrit, I find the use of brackets in the 
>>> translation of philosophical texts more desirable than undesirable.)
>>>
>>> 2. Intellectual honesty.  Use of brackets signals what follows 
>>> straightforwardly from the Sanskrit, and what is the result of 
>>> addition or interpretation on your part ? which English etc. words 
>>> correspond to Sanskrit words, and what you have chosen to add in to 
>>> complete the sense, to disambiguate, or to make explicit to the 
>>> reader what would have remained obscure if you had just stuck to 
>>> rendering the Sanskrit words.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alex Watson
>>> Professor of Indian Philosophy
>>> Head of Philosophy Department
>>> Ashoka University
>>> _https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson_
>>> <http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>     ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>     From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>>
>>>     To: Harry Spier <hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com>>
>>>     Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info
>>>     <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>>     Bcc:
>>>     Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:23:19 -0600
>>>     Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
>>>     Your question presses a big red button for me :-)  My thoughts
>>>     are here
>>>     <https://cikitsa.blogspot.com/2016/04/on-use-of-parentheses-in-translation.html>.
>>>
>>>     --
>>>     Professor Dominik Wujastyk
>>>     <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>>>     ?,?
>>>
>>>     Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>>>     ?,?
>>>
>>>     Department of History and Classics
>>>     <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>>>     ?,?
>>>     University of Alberta, Canada
>>>     ?.?
>>>
>>>     South Asia at the U of A:
>>>     ?sas.ualberta.ca? <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
>>>     ??
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info 
>>> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's 
>>> managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list 
>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info  (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info  (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> -- 
> ----
> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
> Director
> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
> Austrian Academy of Sciences
> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
> A-1020 Vienna
> Austria
> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410
> http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/94ec8949/attachment.htm>

From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Jun  6 12:56:27 2018
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (rrocher)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 08:56:27 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call For Papers on H. T. Colebrooke for April 2019 conference in Paris
In-Reply-To: <01573937-8EF2-4638-A82B-84A826698E8F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9bb9529-82be-2ac4-1ad4-3a35465fa918@sas.upenn.edu>

Please note that my first name is spelled with a single "n". Blame my 
parents!

Rosane Rocher

On 6/6/18 7:50 AM, Agathe Keller via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Please find attached a call for papers for a workshop we are 
> organising in Paris on ?/Colebrooke and the Historiography of 
> mathematics and astral science in Sanskri/t?, on the 15^th  and 16^th 
>  of April 2019, in which Rosanne Rocher (University of Pennsylvania) 
> and Pascale Rabault-Feuerhahn (CNRS) will give Keynote lectures. 
> Titles and abstracts should be sent to Agathe Keller 
> (kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr <mailto:kellera at univ-paris-diderot.fr>) 
> before August 30^th  2018. Do not hesitate to circulate this call.
> Apologies for cross-postings.
>
> with all best,
>
> Karine Chemla et Agathe Keller
> Sphere, Universit? Paris Diderot and CNRS, France
>
> *Colebrooke and the Historiography of mathematics and astral sciences 
> in Sanskrit*
> *org by. K. Chemla, A. Keller.*
>
> A bit more than 200 years have elapsed since the publication of Henry 
> Thomas Colebrooke?s /Algebra, with Arithmetic and Mensuration, from 
> the Sanscrit of Brahmegupta and Bh?scara/. We will grasp this 
> opportunity to organise a two day workshop to be held in Paris on the 
> 15th and 16th of April 2019.The conference will concentrate on 
> Colebrooke?s historiography of mathematics and astral sciences, and 
> here are some of the general questions that we invite contributions to 
> this workshop to tackle:
> In which contexts did Colebrooke?s interest in the mathematics and 
> astral sciences of ancient India take shape? What was the ensuing 
> impact, in Europe and beyond, of the 1817 publication for the writing 
> of the history of mathematics not only in India, but also worldwide? 
> What can be said on how Colebrooke translated and worked with Sanskrit 
> sources dealing with mathematics and astral sciences? How can we 
> situate this work by Colebrooke in the larger context of 18th and 19th 
> century interest for ?oriental mathematics and astronomy?? Does 
> Colebrooke?s early interest for mathematics and astral sciences echo 
> into his other indological studies? Or, reciprocally, does he 
> translate and study texts of history of mathematics and/or astral 
> sciences in continuity with his other indological studies?
> We are in particular interested in the various social environments 
> with which Colebrooke interacted and in which he carried out his work. 
> For example, we know that Colebrooke had close-knit relations 
> actuaries in London, linguists in Germany and Scottish enlightenment 
> mathematicians. Can we trace more specifically how some of these 
> milieux helped structure research questions in the history of 
> mathematics and astral sciences in South Asia?
> We are also interested in how Colebrooke chose to translate the 
> Sanskrit sources for which he set out to provide an English 
> translation, and also on the impact of these translations. For 
> example, one could explore why Colebrooke chose to translate some 
> Sanskrit terms, such as the topics of mathematics known under the term 
> /vyavah?ras/, as ?logistics?. This translation has long endured and is 
> still used sometimes today: Why did he use such a translation, where 
> did it come from, why was it retained for such a long time?



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/1dc9df19/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jun  6 13:15:58 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 06:15:58 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] "Linguistic paradox & diglossia": Just published & freely available
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoB=jUqqt-OFX-sxGNQgOAw4NvsLSpvrLpe=qoDaPfPXjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfj8E7f-YRzWobiTB1KS88MGQwBjU_DKrTm9DDx9550Ng@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for sharing this paper, Jan.  With best wishes,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 4:14 AM, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Article "Linguistic paradox & diglossia"
> (De Gruyter Open Linguistics) : Just published & freely available
>
> DOI: 10.1515/opli-2018-0001
> https://goo.gl/Rqkw6i
>
> Keywords: Sanskrit; Prakrit; sociolinguistics; ?Hybrid? Sanskrit; Old
> Persian; diglossia; emerging languages
>
> Background:
> Since the discovery of the Vedas and of the Avesta and since the
> decipherment of old Persian inscriptions and of the royal inscriptions of
> A?oka,
> modern scholarship has made efforts to distinguish and separate
> well-defined ancient languages and has tried to link these as discrete
> "entities" in a genetic tree.
> This has been only partly succesful and we are left with several problems,
> including a considerable amount of linguistic evidence that has to be
> arranged in the category of "hybrid".
> In the study linguistic evidence the view points of "entities", "waves"
> and "fields" have their value and their contribution to make to a better
> understanding.
> Recent scholarship in emerging languages (H. Kloss, ?. Mulja?i?, J.
> Goossens, and others) -- e.g. on the development of romance languages, and
> on the grammatical standardization of French and Dutch starting in the 16th
> century
> (L. Maigret, H.L. Spiegel), that of English ONE century later (unless we
> count W. Bullokar's rudimentary Pamphlet on Grammar and Amendment of
> Orthography) and that of German some TWO centuries later (J.C. Adelung) --
> has reached a level of maturity which makes it now possible to shed new
> light on the linguistic evidence of some of the most ancient testimonies of
> Indian and Indo-European ritual, religious and philosophical poetry and
> literature.
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
> [image: 1506959459738_Signature]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/751c65a6/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Outlook-1506959459.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 7300 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/751c65a6/attachment.jpg>

From letusconnect at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  6 16:52:54 2018
From: letusconnect at hotmail.com (Jason Birch)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 16:52:54 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
Message-ID: <VI1PR0202MB329487F0B93D70AC254BB0F5CA650@VI1PR0202MB3294.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>

The assumption that the 'use of brackets confounds the non-specialist? may not be true. Dominik?s blogpost was the outcome of a discussion we had at the University of Vienna in 2016. Afterwards I wondered for a while whether non-specialists were confused by this convention, and so have since asked several groups of yoga students whether the brackets were helpful or not. In feedback forms, each group has been in favour of keeping the brackets in the translations I provided to them.

If one is writing something for ?non-specialists? and is worried that the use of brackets will confuse them, perhaps, it is simply a matter of explaining (in a note) the reasons for their use.

Best wishes,

Jason

__
Jason Birch
Post-Doctoral Research Fellow
Hatha Yoga Project
SOAS University of London



Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:20:34 +0000
From: "Coseru, Christian" <CoseruC at cofc.edu<mailto:CoseruC at cofc.edu>>
To: "indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
Message-ID: <FDB2893F-9D9E-459B-876D-5FA748BAE4DE at cofc.edu<mailto:FDB2893F-9D9E-459B-876D-5FA748BAE4DE at cofc.edu>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

To follow up on Johannes Bronkhorst?s point about readership, it seems obvious that there are two broad categories of readers of translations from Sanskrit texts: Sanskritists and non-Sanskritists. Since the only way non-Sanskritists have access to Sanskrit texts is via translations in the language their are most fluent in (e.g., English, German, Japanese), the question becomes: should Sanskritists serve their own community or the reading academic community at large (to say nothing of the general public)?

Of course, in practice Sanskritists sever both demographics, but despite the good points about honesty, interpretive preferences, and purpose that Alex and Birgit raise, the use of square brackets confounds the non-specialists, and often makes the text a lot less inviting than it actually is. One might be tempted in this context to note that all translation is in some sense an interpretation since, as the late Luis O G?mez once quipped, the "only perfect translation that can be is the original itself."

One solution to this conundrum might be to adopt a two-tiered translation model, with a bracketed version for specialists and one without for the broader academic readership. In some respects, that two-tiered model exists already, which is why the issues was raise in the first place.

Christian Coseru


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/3cecdd5a/attachment.htm>

From kauzeya at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 17:35:14 2018
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 19:35:14 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR0202MB329487F0B93D70AC254BB0F5CA650@VI1PR0202MB3294.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4L5coeOC4yF1PaBg+fYRcGJZ3YVbjWKrxVUoAcRxJ2H0g@mail.gmail.com>

We are perhaps somehow in this discussion running the risk of not
clarifying sufficiently what we mean.
To write: The Buddha attained extinction (nirodha) before ... is one thing
To write: I picked up (my) pen to write a letter to (my) mother... that's
another.
And when we get [The] Buddha spoke [outloud] to [the previously mentioned]
?ji?vika [renuniciant] [saying] "Hey [you]! How's it hanging?" ...
something is clearly wrong, is it not?

Just adding (my) 10? (an American unit of money; see US Mint 2012,
passim)....
jonathan*

*Yes, it's been a long day. We didn't, by the way, even talk about notes,
really.... and whether we are happy with pages littered with numbers (hint:
I'm not a big fan of this in translations, and think it can be an admission
that the translation is not actually doing its communicative job)


On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 6:52 PM, Jason Birch via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> The assumption that the 'use of brackets confounds the non-specialist? may
> not be true. Dominik?s blogpost was the outcome of a discussion we had at
> the University of Vienna in 2016. Afterwards I wondered for a while whether
> non-specialists were confused by this convention, and so have since asked
> several groups of yoga students whether the brackets were helpful or not.
> In feedback forms, each group has been in favour of keeping the brackets in
> the translations I provided to them.
>
> If one is writing something for ?non-specialists? and is worried that the
> use of brackets will confuse them, perhaps, it is simply a matter of
> explaining (in a note) the reasons for their use.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jason
>
> __
> Jason Birch
> Post-Doctoral Research Fellow
> Hatha Yoga Project
> SOAS University of London
>
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:20:34 +0000
> From: "Coseru, Christian" <CoseruC at cofc.edu>
> To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
> Message-ID: <FDB2893F-9D9E-459B-876D-5FA748BAE4DE at cofc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> To follow up on Johannes Bronkhorst?s point about readership, it seems
> obvious that there are two broad categories of readers of translations from
> Sanskrit texts: Sanskritists and non-Sanskritists. Since the only way
> non-Sanskritists have access to Sanskrit texts is via translations in the
> language their are most fluent in (e.g., English, German, Japanese), the
> question becomes: should Sanskritists serve their own community or the
> reading academic community at large (to say nothing of the general public)?
>
> Of course, in practice Sanskritists sever both demographics, but despite
> the good points about honesty, interpretive preferences, and purpose that
> Alex and Birgit raise, the use of square brackets confounds the
> non-specialists, and often makes the text a lot less inviting than it
> actually is. One might be tempted in this context to note that all
> translation is in some sense an interpretation since, as the late Luis O
> G?mez once quipped, the "only perfect translation that can be is the
> original itself."
>
> One solution to this conundrum might be to adopt a two-tiered translation
> model, with a bracketed version for specialists and one without for the
> broader academic readership. In some respects, that two-tiered model exists
> already, which is why the issues was raise in the first place.
>
> Christian Coseru
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/885fc902/attachment.htm>

From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 19:15:51 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 13:15:51 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR0202MB329487F0B93D70AC254BB0F5CA650@VI1PR0202MB3294.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CcnkXQRAVfyCTk9sgg0ZraxtoCkAowLWykthxngfdnoDg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very much enjoying this discussion.  Thanks, everyone.

I think @Christian Coseru (and @Bronkhorst) hit the nail on the head when
he emphasized audience.  Others have raised that too.  If I translate with
a particular target audience clearly in mind, my usage and choices are
likely to be more consistent and appropriate.

@Jonathan Silks' point, made just now, is very useful:

We are perhaps somehow in this discussion running the risk of not
clarifying sufficiently what we mean.
To write: The Buddha attained extinction (nirodha) before ... is one thing
To write: I picked up (my) pen to write a letter to (my) mother... that's
another.
And when we get [The] Buddha spoke [outloud] to [the previously mentioned]
?ji?vika [renuniciant] [saying] "Hey [you]! How's it hanging?" ...
something is clearly wrong, is it not?

Taking the second example, "I picked up (my) pen to write a letter to (my)
mother," I would like to channel Bimal Matilal, who would have said that
putting "my" in parentheses is incorrect, because even if the Sanskrit is
"lekhakam  abhyup?d?ya m?tre pattra? viracita? may?/" the presence or
absence of "my" isn't a matter of what the author intended to express,
rather it's a feature of how the different languages work.  So, "I picked
up my pen..."  would be, for Matilal, a faithful and fully correct
translation into English of the Sanskrit.  Adding parentheses around "my"
would be as nonsensical as putting "th" in parentheses because Sanskrit
doesn't have the sound /th/ (dentilingual voiced fricative) in its
syllabary.  Further, omitting the parentheses, "I picked up pen to write a
letter to mother" is not standard English, whereas the original Sanskrit is
standard Sanskrit.  Mutatis mutandis for the definite and indefinite
articles.  So by suggesting that parenthetical additions are necessary in
the English, the translator is tacitly telling the reader that the Sanskrit
is in some sense elliptical, when it really isn't; it's just a different
language, with different syntactic presuppositions.

Carrying too much of the source language into the target language can be
used for comic effect, as in the Belgian-English spoken by the world-famous
detective, Hercule Poirot.  I suggest that this is exactly what we do too
often with our Sanskrit translations.

I say all the above as a native English speaker and reader.  Please bear in
mind the evidence given by Venuti in *The Translator's Invisibility, *about
the quite different reception-expectations of German and French readers,
and other language communities.  When I talk about German translators and
readers I am thinking very specifically of the evidence marshalled by
Venuti about the different expectations that English and German audiences
have for the translations they read.

Best,
Dominik





Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:20:34 +0000
> From: "Coseru, Christian" <CoseruC at cofc.edu>
> To: "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Brackets in modern sanskrit translations
> Message-ID: <FDB2893F-9D9E-459B-876D-5FA748BAE4DE at cofc.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> To follow up on Johannes Bronkhorst?s point about readership, it seems
> obvious that there are two broad categories of readers of translations from
> Sanskrit texts: Sanskritists and non-Sanskritists. Since the only way
> non-Sanskritists have access to Sanskrit texts is via translations in the
> language their are most fluent in (e.g., English, German, Japanese), the
> question becomes: should Sanskritists serve their own community or the
> reading academic community at large (to say nothing of the general public)?
>
> Of course, in practice Sanskritists sever both demographics, but despite
> the good points about honesty, interpretive preferences, and purpose that
> Alex and Birgit raise, the use of square brackets confounds the
> non-specialists, and often makes the text a lot less inviting than it
> actually is. One might be tempted in this context to note that all
> translation is in some sense an interpretation since, as the late Luis O
> G?mez once quipped, the "only perfect translation that can be is the
> original itself."
>
> One solution to this conundrum might be to adopt a two-tiered translation
> model, with a bracketed version for specialists and one without for the
> broader academic readership. In some respects, that two-tiered model exists
> already, which is why the issues was raise in the first place.
>
> Christian Coseru
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/38b8aab9/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Jun  7 02:28:41 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 18 19:28:41 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing with my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzesRLuGAp-zZOCRR0p_BB4iYqxbZ--WCWtPSr+vybtm3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing with my Krishna verses:

????????????? ?????? ???????: ??????? ???? ?

???????? ???????????: ????? ?? ???????? ??? ???????

The dark deeds of your uncle Ka?sa cause fear in your mother, Devak?.  The
scare of your mother, O Kr???a, caused the dark hue of your body.


???? ??????? ???? ???????? ????????? ?

?????? ????????? ?? ????? ??????????? ??? ?? ?????

Perhaps it is the accumulated sins of your devotees that you removed that
is causing your dark hue, like the [held up] poison in the throat of ?iva.


??? ?? ????? ????? ????????? ???????????? ?

????????? ????????????? ??? ???????? ???????? ??: ???????

When S?t? entered the fire to show her purity, you were worried of her
burning.  Remembering that you developed a dark hue.


???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?

????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ??? ???????

Assuming the form of a boar when you held high on your raised tusk the
earth in the water, that earth gave you your dark hue.


??????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????????: ?

??? ?????????????? ??????? ???????????? ???????

When you traversed the earth assuming the form of a dwarf taking three
steps, then by the touch of that earth your body became dark.


?????????? ?????? ???? ??????????: ?

???????????: ?????, ?????: ?????????????? ???????

Assuming the form of Man-Lion, when you tore apart the belly of the demon
Hira?yaka?ipu, your anger became the cause of your dark hue.


???: ?????????????? ??????????????????? ?

??? ?????????: ????? ????? ????????????: ???????

The brilliance of a thousand suns will be too scorching for the eyes of the
devotees.  With this worry, O Kr???a, you assumed a dark hue.


??????????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ?

?? ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????????? ?? ???????

Whichever way your dark hue came about, O Kr???a, do not worry.  I love you
as you are.


?????: ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??????? ?

?????????????? ??????? ??????????????? ??? ???????

What kind of a hue or an illness you are, O Kr???a.  Merely by remembering
you, O Govinda, you have spread around me.



Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180606/283c7d6b/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 21:17:09 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 18 15:17:09 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekYutJD0NAdV0_dVRwaS-Zt-gj=1q-pFHXDMROaQdLQMUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekZ-0fHMFqnaH_wx_yN2JQOX9y-rGcy=_cqhZeZc5QxwuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

My interest here is in what legacy modern translators of Sanskrit texts are
leaving for future generations, and what we can learn from the legacies
left by Chinese translations and by Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts
in history. What Gadjin Nagao said about four different Chinese
translations of a Sanskrit text that were made in the past can easily apply
to four different English translations of a Sanskrit text that were made in
the present. After describing the four Chinese translations of the
*Mah?y?nasa?graha*, those by Hs?an-tsang, Dharmagupta, Param?rtha, and
Buddha??nta, Gadjin Nagao wrote (*An Index to Asa?ga?s Mah?y?nasa?graha*,
Part One, p. xiii-xiv):



?As one reads through the Chinese translations of the *Mah?y?nasa?graha*
many points come to one?s notice. We remark with surprise that various
translators deal entirely differently with what we may suppose to have been
more or less the same original. This is in virtually diametric opposition
to the practice of the Tibetan translators who in most cases followed
standardized renderings, for instance those listed in the *Mah?vyutpatti*.
In the Chinese versions it is not rare even for the same term in the same
paragraph to be rendered with a variety of, albeit synonymous, terms. This
is one reason that the Chinese-Sanskrit portion of the index has grown to
such an unexpectedly huge size. Hs?an-tsang?s attempt to standardize his
rendering of a given Sanskrit term must be seen, in this light, as an
exception rather than as the rule.?



This could just as well say: ?As one reads through the English translations
of such-and-such a Sanskrit text, we remark with surprise that various
translators deal entirely differently with the same original.? There are
many instances of this at present. In fact, what led me to study Sanskrit
was comparing several translations of Pata?jali?s *Yogas?tra*, which in
some cases were so different that you could not tell they were translating
the same Sanskrit s?tra.



Gadjin Nagao made a similar observation regarding the Chinese translations
(p. xv): ?Not a few times as we engaged in the work of compiling this index
we were puzzled by how to understand a certain difficult passage or how to
interpret the disagreement between the various versions.?



So how can current and future generations understand English translations
of Sanskrit texts when these translations disagree with each other? When
the translations disagree, they do not provide a stable basis for serious
engagement with the ideas found in the Sanskrit texts. I suggest that we
can learn from the Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts, translations
that were more literal and used standardized translation terms, and thereby
provided a stable basis for serious engagement with their ideas.



The issue of accuracy in translation, of course, is not limited to
Indological texts. It has a long history in Bible translations. With no
cognizance of the history of translations of Sanskrit texts into Chinese
and into Tibetan, Bible translation has on its own moved from less literal
to more literal. Today, the New Revised Standard Version has gained wide
acceptance, and has been adopted in influential publications including the *New
Oxford Annotated Bible*. Released in 1989, the New Revised Standard Version
was produced by a team of thirty translators under the mandate, ?As literal
as possible, as free as necessary.?


Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180607/12fde80a/attachment.htm>

From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de  Fri Jun  8 09:16:29 2018
From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 18 09:16:29 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL Update #489
Message-ID: <a1da533c75464180a03b63941012d5e5@sub.uni-goettingen.de>

GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection:

Texts added:
Bana: Harsacarita<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#BanaHcar>: analytic text
Ruyaka [Rajanaka]: Vyaktivivekavyakhya, 2nd vimarsa<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#RuyVyaViVya>: analytic and plain text
Candrasutra<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#CandraSu>: transliteration and plain text
Dhvajagrasutra<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#DhvajSu>: transliteration and plain text
Satyasutra<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#SatyaSu>: transliteration and plain text
Pratityasamutpadavibhangasutra<http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/#DSBC_Su027>: transliteration and plain text

__________________________________________________________________________
GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages:
http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/82368800/attachment.htm>

From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de  Fri Jun  8 11:32:47 2018
From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 18 13:32:47 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] PhD positions Junior Research Groups
In-Reply-To: <7db8a155-c75c-04d2-4506-51531741b712@uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <8EE5AEA5-8A9F-4B89-9B1F-C1318B5A628A@uni-bonn.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

please find attached information on a number of funded doctoral positions at the university of Bonn. Specialists from a South Asian research background are very welcome to apply and ?slavery? and dependency can be understood in indirect forms as well (?slave of god?, dependencies through caste affiliation, prescriptions in texts etc.). 

with best wishes,

Julia Hegewald.


> Questions should be direct to:
> Jeannine Bischoff
> University of Bonn
> Bonn Center for Dependency and Slavery Studies
> Heussallee 18-24
> D-53113 Bonn
> Tel.: 0049 228 73 62963
> https://www.dependency.uni-bonn.de/en?set_language=en
> 



Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald
Professorin f?r Orientalische Kunstgeschichte
Abteilungsleiterin
Universit?t Bonn
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften (IOA)
Abteilung f?r Asiatische und Islamische Kunstgeschichte
Adenauerallee 10
D ? 53113 Bonn

Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de
www.aik.uni-bonn.de
Tel. 0228-73 7213
Fax. 0228-73 4042











-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/8725f800/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: CallforPhDs_Gender.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 304091 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/8725f800/attachment.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/8725f800/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: CallPhDs_Asia.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 304592 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/8725f800/attachment-0001.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: CallPhDs_Punishment.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 303242 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/8725f800/attachment-0002.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/8725f800/attachment-0002.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun  8 13:42:38 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 18 06:42:38 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Sanskrit verses on Krishna
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzeguO--SGOmiNFRMSuV9yEKZAi=EaDuUYtwiAA5ZGgKxw@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Sanskrit verses on Krishna:

????? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????????? ?

????????? ???????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???????

O Kr???a, I beg for your dark hue, and I am willing to give everything I
have.  Take everything, but give me just this one thing.  O M?dhava, what
will you lose?


????????? ????????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?

?????????: ??? ????? ????????????? ???????????????

O Lord, just give me a speck of your dark hue.  By giving me just a speck
of it, your are not going to lose it all.


???????: ????????? ????????????????????? ?

???????? ?????????? ????? ??????????? ???????

That is Kr???a and this is Kr???a.  Kr???a arises from Kr???a.  Having
taken Kr???a from Kr???a, Kr???a alone remains behind.


??????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????????? ?

??????? ?????????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???????

If I am a speck of yours, O Kr???a, and if I have a dark hue, why would
that diminish your dark hue?


??????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???????? ?

?????? ? ? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???????: ???????

If I am a speck of yours, then my dark hue is uncontested.  It is neither
to be given or taken.  O Kr???a, it is my very own nature.


????? ?? ?????????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?

????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???????

O Kr???a, my whole world is immersed in your dark hue.  O M?dhava, how do I
know where you are and where I am.


?????????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????? ?

???????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ??? ???????

Immersed in the dark hue, when I search, O Lord, thinking it is you I grab
my own hand.


?????? ?????????????????? ?????? ??????????? ?

???????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????????? ?????: ???????

Let this play in the playground of your dark hue go on for ever.  Whether
you catch me or I catch you, there is no reduction in the joy of the game.


????????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?

?? ????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ???? ???????

O Kr???a, during this play, whether I catch you or you catch me, what
difference does it make, as long your hand catches my hand.


?????? ?? ?????????? ??????? ?? ???? ?

??????????? ????????????????? ???????????: ???????

O M?dhava, my otherness is dissolved in your dark hue.  I am unable to see
if you are other than me or if I am other than you.


??????????? ?????????? ??? ??????????????? ?

??????????????? ?????????????? ????? ???????

For those immersed in the ocean of your dark hue, how could there be
anything else to see?  There are only the waves of your dark water around
me, and nothing else.


??????????????????? ??????? ? ????????: ?

?????????????????????? ?????? ? ????: ???????

Why would the waves of the ocean of your dark hue not have that dark hue?  You
are the ocean, and I am a wave, but undoubtedly both have the same dark hue.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180608/25f414a9/attachment.htm>

From westerhoff at cantab.net  Fri Jun  8 14:29:58 2018
From: westerhoff at cantab.net (Jan Westerhoff)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 18 15:29:58 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New book: The Golden Age of Indian Buddhist Philosophy
Message-ID: <37917.192.76.8.92.1528468198.squirrel@www.cantab.net>

Dear Colleagues,
some of you may be interested in this book, which has just come out:

Jan Westerhoff: The Golden Age of Indian Buddhist Philosophy (The Oxford
History of Philosophy), Oxford University Press, 352 pages, 978-0198732662

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-golden-age-of-indian-buddhist-philosophy-9780198732662?cc=gb&lang=en&

Here is a short description, followed by the table of contents:

Jan Westerhoff unfolds the story of one of the richest episodes in the
history of Indian thought, the development of Buddhist philosophy in the
first millennium CE. He starts from the composition of the Abhidharma
works before the beginning of the common era and continues up to the time
of Dharmakirti in the sixth century. This period was characterized by the
development of a variety of philosophical schools and approaches that have
shaped Buddhist thought up to the present day: the scholasticism of the
Abhidharma, the Madhyamaka's theory of emptiness, Yogacara idealism, and
the logical and epistemological works of Dinnaga and Dharmakirti. The book
attempts to describe the historical development of these schools in their
intellectual and cultural context, with particular emphasis on three
factors that shaped the development of Buddhist philosophical thought: the
need to spell out the contents of canonical texts, the discourses of the
historical Buddha and the Mahayana sutras; the desire to defend their
positions by sophisticated arguments against criticisms from fellow
Buddhists and from non-Buddhist thinkers of classical Indian philosophy;
and the need to account for insights gained through the application of
specific meditative techniques. While the main focus is the period up to
the sixth century CE, Westerhoff also discusses some important thinkers
who influenced Buddhist thought between this time and the decline of
Buddhist scholastic philosophy in India at the beginning of the thirteenth
century. His aim is that the historical presentation will also allow the
reader to get a better systematic grasp of key Buddhist concepts such as
non-self, suffering, reincarnation, karma, and nirvana.


Table of contents
0. Introduction

1. Buddhist philosophy in India: a wheel ever turning

2. Philosophy as a game

3. Factors determining the game
a. Arguments
b. Sacred texts
c. Meditative practice

4. Narrating the game: how to structure the material

5. The sources of the game
a. The bases of Buddhist philosophy
b. Debates
c. Commentaries
d. Doxographies

6. The game?s view of the game


1. Abhidharma

1. Introducing the Abhidharma

a. Matrices
b. Question-and-answer format
c. Providing a comprehensive theory

2. The question of authenticity

3. The Abhidharma schools

a. Mah&#257;sa&#7747;ghika
b. Sthaviranik&#257;ya
c. Pudgalav&#257;da
d. Sarv&#257;stiv&#257;da
e. Sautr&#257;ntika


2. Madhyamaka

1. The rise of Mah&#257;y&#257;na and its relation to Buddhist philosophy

2. The Madhyamaka school

3. The teachings of the Perfection of Wisdom

a. Criticism of the Abhidharma project
b. The doctrine of illusionism
c. An explicit acceptance of contradictions

4. Key themes of N&#257;g&#257;rjuna?s thought

a. N&#257;g&#257;rjuna and the criticism of the Abhidharma project
b. Illusionism in N&#257;g&#257;rjuna?s thought
c. Contradictions and N&#257;g&#257;rjuna?s thought

5. The commentators

a. Buddhap&#257;lita
b. Bh&#257;vaviveka
c. Candrak&#299;rti

6. The great synthesizers: &#346;&#257;ntarak&#7779;ita and
Kamala&#347;&#299;la

7. Madhyamaka and Ny&#257;ya


3. Yog&#257;c&#257;ra
1. Five Stages of Yog&#257;c&#257;ra?s development

a. The early Yog&#257;c&#257;ra s&#363;tras
b. Stages 2 and 3: Maitreya and Asa&#7749;ga
c. Stage 4: Vasubandhu
d. Stage 5: Later Yog&#257;c&#257;ra

2. Proofs of Buddhist doctrines

a. Rebirth
b. Other minds
c. Momentariness

3. Key Yog&#257;c&#257;ra concepts

a. Cittam&#257;tra
b. &#256;layavij?&#257;na and the eight types of consciousness
c. Trisvabh&#257;va
d. Svasa&#7747;vedana
e. Three turnings
f. Tath&#257;gatagarbha and Yog&#257;c&#257;ra

4. Factors that shaped Yog&#257;c&#257;ra philosophy

a. argumentative factors
b. textual factors
c. meditative factors

5. Yog&#257;c&#257;ra and other schools of Buddhist philosophy

6. Yog&#257;c&#257;ra and Ved&#257;nta

4. The school of Di&#7749;n&#257;ga and Dharmak&#299;rti

1. The lives of Di&#7749;n&#257;ga and Dharmak&#299;rti

2. Epistemology

3. Inference

4. Metaphysics

5. Language

6. Scriptural authority and yogic perception

a. Scriptural authority
b. Yogic perception

7. How to classify Di&#7749;n&#257;ga?s and Dharmak&#299;rti?s philosophy

8. The school of Di&#7749;n&#257;ga and Dharmak&#299;rti and its relation
to M&#299;m&#257;&#7747;s&#257;

a. M&#299;m&#257;&#7747;s&#257; epistemology
b. M&#299;m&#257;&#7779;&#257; philosophy of language
c. M&#299;m&#257;&#7747;s&#257; and historiography

9. The end of Buddhist philosophy in India

a. &#346;&#257;ntideva
b. Ati&#347;a D&#299;pa&#7747;kara&#347;r&#299;j?&#257;na

Bibliography



Very best wishes

Jan Westerhoff




**************************
JC Westerhoff
Lady Margaret Hall
University of Oxford
Norham Gardens
Oxford OX2 6QA
United Kingdom

jan.westerhoff at lmh.ox.ac.uk
www.janwesterhoff.net








From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk  Sat Jun  9 09:37:26 2018
From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 18 09:37:26 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekZ-0fHMFqnaH_wx_yN2JQOX9y-rGcy=_cqhZeZc5QxwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <487A2E95-9820-4980-91D8-E8810367448D@bodleian.ox.ac.uk>

Dear all,

This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot, thank you!

If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit terminology.

Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices, alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in our own field.

Best wishes,

Camillo


From: David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 8 June 2018 at 00:17
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations

Dear all,

My interest here is in what legacy modern translators of Sanskrit texts are leaving for future generations, and what we can learn from the legacies left by Chinese translations and by Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts in history. What Gadjin Nagao said about four different Chinese translations of a Sanskrit text that were made in the past can easily apply to four different English translations of a Sanskrit text that were made in the present. After describing the four Chinese translations of the Mah?y?nasa?graha, those by Hs?an-tsang, Dharmagupta, Param?rtha, and Buddha??nta, Gadjin Nagao wrote (An Index to Asa?ga?s Mah?y?nasa?graha, Part One, p. xiii-xiv):

?As one reads through the Chinese translations of the Mah?y?nasa?graha many points come to one?s notice. We remark with surprise that various translators deal entirely differently with what we may suppose to have been more or less the same original. This is in virtually diametric opposition to the practice of the Tibetan translators who in most cases followed standardized renderings, for instance those listed in the Mah?vyutpatti. In the Chinese versions it is not rare even for the same term in the same paragraph to be rendered with a variety of, albeit synonymous, terms. This is one reason that the Chinese-Sanskrit portion of the index has grown to such an unexpectedly huge size. Hs?an-tsang?s attempt to standardize his rendering of a given Sanskrit term must be seen, in this light, as an exception rather than as the rule.?

This could just as well say: ?As one reads through the English translations of such-and-such a Sanskrit text, we remark with surprise that various translators deal entirely differently with the same original.? There are many instances of this at present. In fact, what led me to study Sanskrit was comparing several translations of Pata?jali?s Yogas?tra, which in some cases were so different that you could not tell they were translating the same Sanskrit s?tra.

Gadjin Nagao made a similar observation regarding the Chinese translations (p. xv): ?Not a few times as we engaged in the work of compiling this index we were puzzled by how to understand a certain difficult passage or how to interpret the disagreement between the various versions.?

So how can current and future generations understand English translations of Sanskrit texts when these translations disagree with each other? When the translations disagree, they do not provide a stable basis for serious engagement with the ideas found in the Sanskrit texts. I suggest that we can learn from the Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts, translations that were more literal and used standardized translation terms, and thereby provided a stable basis for serious engagement with their ideas.

The issue of accuracy in translation, of course, is not limited to Indological texts. It has a long history in Bible translations. With no cognizance of the history of translations of Sanskrit texts into Chinese and into Tibetan, Bible translation has on its own moved from less literal to more literal. Today, the New Revised Standard Version has gained wide acceptance, and has been adopted in influential publications including the New Oxford Annotated Bible. Released in 1989, the New Revised Standard Version was produced by a team of thirty translators under the mandate, ?As literal as possible, as free as necessary.?

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180609/e4d6df89/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sat Jun  9 15:51:39 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 18 08:51:39 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfW4PzUsuCUpZ88Uviza1Kr6MznH2KvoA3ZqL_8nq_WbA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna verses:

????????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ?

??????? ?? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???? ???????

Whether my eyes are open or closed, if I am immersed in your dark hue, how
could I see anything different?


???????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ?

????? ?????? ?????: ????? ?????? ????: ???????

Thinking that I am Kr???a, I assumed your name.  If M?dhava is Kr???a,
then, O Kr???a, you must be M?dhava.


??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ???????? ???? ?

????????? ?????????????? ???: ?????? ????? ???????

O Kr???a, your uncontrolled dark hue catches everyone.  Even Arjuna, though
he did not know it, was transformed into you, O Lord.


?????????? ???????? ?????????????????? ?

????????? ?? ????????? ????? ? ??????? ???????

Those who claim to know do not, and those who do not claim to know do know.
 Such is the dark hue of yours and mine, O Lord.


????? ?? ?????????? ?? ????????? ????????? ?

????? ??? ??????? ? ?? ??? ?????: ???????

If my dark hue will merge into your dark you, O Kr???a, that will be a
great joyous occasion for me.


?????????????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ?

? ????????? ???????????? ??????? ???????

O M?dhava, your dark hue exceeds all other colors.  What else would a wise
person wish for, O Madhus?dana.


??????????? ??????? ??????????? ???? ?

?????? ????????????? ?????? ????? ???????

O Krishna, like the sky you cover the world with your compassion.  Like a
cloud you fill the earth with the rushing waters of your kindness.


????????????????? ????: ???????? ?

??????? ??????: ?????? ???? ?????????????? ???????

Quench the thirst of the world like water, O Cool Krishna.  Like the
life-giving breath, the wind, you enliven the whole world.


???? ?????? ??? ????????????? ??? ?

????????????? ????? ????? ???????? ???????

Like the earth, O Lord, you are the loving support of the world.  O Lord,
like the sun, sprinkle the earth with your brilliance.


???????????? ????????? ??? ?????? ???? ?

?????????? ???? ? ???????????????? ??? ??? ???????

You are the sky and you are the cloud and the water, O M?dhava.  You are
the wind, the earth and the sun, O Krishna.


????????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?

?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???????

Support of the World, O Krishna, these are your own forms, and holding
those forms you always take care of the earth.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180609/4677bde1/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sat Jun  9 19:08:22 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 18 13:08:22 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <27A643CF-4231-4A70-90CC-C79847CBF4DA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekb8Ju6sApACff=xWfT4U7sVSWw+R59RBdZeqAdSzXYHMA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dan,



Among the additional observations you have provided, I thought your last
paragraph was especially relevant for providing a proper perspective on the
Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts.



First, it is only fair to say that I am unable to regard as a myth the idea
that the Tibetan translations are more literal than the Chinese
translations, and to concisely state the reasons why. In my attempt to
gather all printed editions of Sanskrit Buddhist texts I have usually read
the introductions. These, when they spoke of the Tibetan and Chinese
translations, uniformly spoke of the Tibetan translations as being more
literal than the Chinese translations. I do not recall a single exception.
This is equally true of introductions to English translations of Sanskrit
Buddhist texts. Additionally, the many critical reviews by J. W. de Jong
and others said the same. My own forays into the Tibetan canonical texts in
comparison with the Sanskrit texts had also impressed me with their
literalness. More often than not they even followed the Sanskrit word
order, only moving the verb to the end when it was not already there, such
as in Sanskrit verse. The two examples I cited from Gadjin Nagao are
particularly instructive, not only because his wide familiarity with
Buddhist texts is undoubted, but also because they are from word-indexes
that obviously took full and careful account of the words in the texts.
Thus, I cannot regard the idea that the Tibetan translations are more
literal than the Chinese translations as a myth.



Your last paragraph points to what can well be regarded as a myth: the idea
that the Tibetan translations are so accurate that nothing else is needed,
and hence they can be accurately translated without reference to the
Sanskrit. I, too, have been disappointed in the quality of the many
translations made only from the Tibetan translations, when Sanskrit
editions exist. Why would a translator purposely choose to translate a
translation when an original is available? Leaving aside the many cases
where we no longer have the Sanskrit, the rationale for translating a
Tibetan translation rather than the Sanskrit is the transmission lineage.
There is a widespread belief that a text cannot be properly understood
unless there is an unbroken lineage of transmission of the text from the
time it was written up to the present. The Tibetans have retained the
transmission lineages for their translations, while the transmission
lineages have been lost for the Sanskrit texts when these fell out of use
in India. So we have the strange situation that the Tibetans highly respect
the Sanskrit texts as their sourceworks, but do not wish to use them.



As a personal aside, of little or no relevance to this discussion, Xuanzang
is one of my heroes. I have the greatest respect for his incredible journey
to India in search of Sanskrit texts to bring back to China. Then back
there, he translated more Sanskrit texts than anyone has ever done in known
history. As ? <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%89>tienne Lamotte wrote:
?Hs?an-tsang, who spent the last nineteen years of his life translating
some 75 S?tras and ??stras, was the greatest expert in Buddhist literature
of all time.? (*The Teaching of Vimalak?rti*, 1976, p. xxxv)

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:

> David,
>
> Your analogy to modern translations is apt.
>
> While you continue to document the pervasiveness of the myth, perhaps we
> should let the other shoe drop. While it is true that there are differences
> between the various Chinese translations of the Mah?y?nasamgraha, a more
> complete account would mention that there are actually seven Chinese
> translations (including bh??ya and upanibandhana), by four translators.
>
> Mah?y?nasa?graha (Asa?ga)
> (1) (T. 1592) Translation by Buddha?anta in 531.
>
> (2) (T. 1593) Translation by Param?rtha in 563.
>
> (3) (T. 1594) Translation by Xuanzang in 649.
> --
>
> (4) (T. 1595) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya (Vasubandhu?s comm.)
> Translation by Param?rtha in 563.
>
> (5) (T. 1596) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya
> Translation by Dharmagupta, sometime between 605-616.
>
> (6) (T. 1597) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya
> Translation by Xuanzang in 648.
> --
>
> (7) (T. 1598) Mah?y?nasa?grahopanibandhana (*Asvabh?va?s sub-comm.)
> Translation by Xuanzang between 647-649.
>
> The two versions that dominated E. Asian attention were those by
> Param?rtha (with -bh??ya) and the three versions by Xuanzang. Dharmagupta?s
> translation, done while Xuanzang was a youngster, never rivaled
> Param?rtha?s version which was the hot item in that period, totally
> eclipsing Buddha?anta?s earlier effort. Study groups and temples all
> devoted inordinate attention to Param?rtha?s She lun; everyone studied it,
> masters lectured on it, it was on the reading list for all Buddhist sects
> in China, including early Chan. It is precisely due to its defects ?
> ideological distortions, not just translation errors ? that led Xuanzang to
> put not only the Mah?y?nasa?graha on his to-do list when he returned from
> India in 645, but to retranslate Vasubandhu?s comm. and introduce
> *Asvabh?va?s subcommentary, just to make sure the correct reading of the
> text would become available in China. When Griffiths, Keenan, et al.,
> worked on the 10th chapter with Hakamaya, they found that the Tibetan of
> Asvabh?va?s subcommentary basically concurred with Xuanzang?s text ?
> though, if you read their introduction, they are somewhat struggling with
> that realization, since another important Japanese scholar, Ui Hakuju, had
> championed Param?rtha?s texts over Xuanzang?s (another ideological myth
> with some live embers in Asia) ? and the evidence of the texts they were
> reading was indicating otherwise.
>
> There are only three Tibetan versions: one for the main text, one for
> Vasubandhu?s comm., and one for the Asvabh?va subcommentary. The first and
> third are attributed to basically the same translators, with a redactor
> homogenizing the third as well. So ?uniformity? is not surprising.
>
> (1) Mah?y?nasa?graha (theg pa chen po bsdus pa)
> translation ascribed to Jinamitra, ??lendrabodhi, Ye-shes-sde
>
> (2) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya (theg pa chen po bsdus pa'i 'grel pa)
> translation ascribed to ?t??a D?pa?kara?r?j??na, Nag-tsho
> Tshul-khrims-rgyal-ba
>
> (3) Mah?y?nasa?grahopanibandhana (theg pa chen po bsdus pa'i bshad sbyar)
>
> translation ascribed to Jinamitra, ??lendrabodhi, Ye-shes-sde
> with revisions ascribed to R. Dpal brtsegs
>
> That they agree with Xuanzang?s text would suggest either that Xuanzang
> and the Tibetans were good at capturing the Sanskrit, or (!) that the
> Tibetan translations and/or redactions were done with one eye on Xuanzang?s
> rendition. The Sanskrit has not survived, so we can?t rule either
> possibility out.
>
> But a bigger issue is the role of redaction, revision, on what becomes the
> received texts. Even apart from known variants in different editions of the
> Chinese and Tibetan canons, there were wholesale ?revisions? of many texts,
> some multiple times.
>
> But more germane to the Chinese vs Tibetan translation issues:
>
> There are two Tib. versions of the Trisvabh?vanirde?a ? one designating
> Vasubandhu as the original author and the other naming N?g?rjuna as the
> author. (I don?t think it is possible that either of them had anything to
> do with it). There are serious discrepancies between these two translations.
>
> Or, to take a more influential text, there are two divergent translations
> of Dign?ga?s Pram??asamuccaya, both of which, while unavoidable since the
> Skt was lost, were commonly panned as bad translations. With the recovery
> of the Skt of Jinendrabuddhi?s -??k?, which retains perhaps 70% of
> Dign?ga?s original text, we can now see more clearly what the Sanskrit
> underlying the two Tib translations was, and suddenly some are beginning to
> say the Tib translations weren?t so bad after all. I suspect that
> reappraisal is a result of knowing what the Tibetan is *supposed* to
> indicate, and then finding it there. Reading in the other direction is more
> fraught.
>
> One could make a similar case for some Chinese translations as well. Some
> years back a reading group of grad students was reading the Yog?c?rabh?mi
> with me. Our procedure was to read a passage in Skt, translate it orally,
> and then look at Xuanzang?s Chinese and translate that. We often looked at
> the Tibetan as well, esp. for thornier passages. After some weeks, the
> students, most of whom were Chinese, remarked how impressed they were with
> Xuanzang?s translation, declaring him great and accurate. I cautioned it
> only looks that way because they had already worked on the Sanskrit and
> knew what to look for. They disagreed. So the next session, I had them read
> Xuanzang?s Chinese version first, and translate that. They cobbled together
> a plausible reading. Then I had them read the Sanskrit. They immediately
> recognized the mistakes they had just made. Since they were native readers
> of Chinese, trained in reading classical and Buddhist Chinese as well as
> Sanskrit (two had studied Sanskrit and Pali for years in India and Sri
> Lanka, and one was a monk), the mistakes they made were not ?student?
> mistakes but natural misreadings that can occur in the absence of the
> underlying Sanskrit. (Incidentally, on the few occasions when Xuanzang and
> the Tib diverged, it was almost always because each was offering a
> legitimate interpretation of what the Sanskrit said, but their
> interpretations differed.)
>
> One can find better and worse translations in Chinese and Tibetan. Some
> years back I complained at a conference on Buddhist translations that many
> of the translations of classic Buddhist texts coming out in English from
> Tibetan versions of Indian texts were insipid, lacking in conceptual
> distinctness and clarity (of course, there are many exceptions to that, but
> that does identify a certain genre of English representations, which I will
> leave unidentified). One of the conference participants, an important
> scholar, in defense of those translations, replied: ?To be fair, that?s how
> they read in Tibetan, too."
>
> As we all know, translation is never as easy as it looks ? and it doesn?t
> even look easy.
>
> Dan
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180609/d2b2962b/attachment.htm>

From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Jun  9 21:29:57 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 18 21:29:57 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekb8Ju6sApACff=xWfT4U7sVSWw+R59RBdZeqAdSzXYHMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB1598B251C7D09B63320AE1E5A17A0@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear David and Dan,


To my way of thinking the emphasis on "literalness" in translation is misplaced.

Tibetan translations give an impression of great literalness because the Tibetans adhered rather closely -- sometimes too closely -- to a rigid scheme of lexical equivalents. But translation is something more than this; it requires sensitivity to syntax, idiom, nuance and more. The great 13th c. Tibetan translator Byang-chub-rtse-mo clearly recognized this and is quoted in his biography as saying that only poor translators follow the MahAvyutpatti with complete faithfulness.


It is not difficult to find instances of Tibetan translations that are, to all intents and purposes, equally "literal," but that one is a fine, elegant work and the other unreadable hash. A case in point is Vasubandhu's ADhKBh, a great achievement, vs. Sthiramati's commentary on the ADhk, a pretty dismal exercise. And it would not be difficult to multiply the examples.


I could go on, but my point is concise: in judging the value of a translation, literalness is but one value that must be considered alongside a range of others. And while I have great respect for Tibetan transmission lineages, it would be naive to imagine that sometimes grotesque misunderstandings have never crept into tradition. But I'll leave it at that.


best regards,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2018 2:08:22 PM
To: Dan Lusthaus
Cc: Indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations


Dear Dan,



Among the additional observations you have provided, I thought your last paragraph was especially relevant for providing a proper perspective on the Tibetan translations of Sanskrit texts.



First, it is only fair to say that I am unable to regard as a myth the idea that the Tibetan translations are more literal than the Chinese translations, and to concisely state the reasons why. In my attempt to gather all printed editions of Sanskrit Buddhist texts I have usually read the introductions. These, when they spoke of the Tibetan and Chinese translations, uniformly spoke of the Tibetan translations as being more literal than the Chinese translations. I do not recall a single exception. This is equally true of introductions to English translations of Sanskrit Buddhist texts. Additionally, the many critical reviews by J. W. de Jong and others said the same. My own forays into the Tibetan canonical texts in comparison with the Sanskrit texts had also impressed me with their literalness. More often than not they even followed the Sanskrit word order, only moving the verb to the end when it was not already there, such as in Sanskrit verse. The two examples I cited from Gadjin Nagao are particularly instructive, not only because his wide familiarity with Buddhist texts is undoubted, but also because they are from word-indexes that obviously took full and careful account of the words in the texts. Thus, I cannot regard the idea that the Tibetan translations are more literal than the Chinese translations as a myth.



Your last paragraph points to what can well be regarded as a myth: the idea that the Tibetan translations are so accurate that nothing else is needed, and hence they can be accurately translated without reference to the Sanskrit. I, too, have been disappointed in the quality of the many translations made only from the Tibetan translations, when Sanskrit editions exist. Why would a translator purposely choose to translate a translation when an original is available? Leaving aside the many cases where we no longer have the Sanskrit, the rationale for translating a Tibetan translation rather than the Sanskrit is the transmission lineage. There is a widespread belief that a text cannot be properly understood unless there is an unbroken lineage of transmission of the text from the time it was written up to the present. The Tibetans have retained the transmission lineages for their translations, while the transmission lineages have been lost for the Sanskrit texts when these fell out of use in India. So we have the strange situation that the Tibetans highly respect the Sanskrit texts as their sourceworks, but do not wish to use them.



As a personal aside, of little or no relevance to this discussion, Xuanzang is one of my heroes. I have the greatest respect for his incredible journey to India in search of Sanskrit texts to bring back to China. Then back there, he translated more Sanskrit texts than anyone has ever done in known history. As ?<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%89>tienne Lamotte wrote: ?Hs?an-tsang, who spent the last nineteen years of his life translating some 75 S?tras and ??stras, was the greatest expert in Buddhist literature of all time.? (The Teaching of Vimalak?rti, 1976, p. xxxv)

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com<mailto:prajnapti at gmail.com>> wrote:
David,

Your analogy to modern translations is apt.

While you continue to document the pervasiveness of the myth, perhaps we should let the other shoe drop. While it is true that there are differences between the various Chinese translations of the Mah?y?nasamgraha, a more complete account would mention that there are actually seven Chinese translations (including bh??ya and upanibandhana), by four translators.

Mah?y?nasa?graha (Asa?ga)
(1) (T. 1592) Translation by Buddha?anta in 531.

(2) (T. 1593) Translation by Param?rtha in 563.

(3) (T. 1594) Translation by Xuanzang in 649.
--

(4) (T. 1595) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya (Vasubandhu?s comm.)
Translation by Param?rtha in 563.

(5) (T. 1596) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya
Translation by Dharmagupta, sometime between 605-616.

(6) (T. 1597) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya
Translation by Xuanzang in 648.
--

(7) (T. 1598) Mah?y?nasa?grahopanibandhana (*Asvabh?va?s sub-comm.)
Translation by Xuanzang between 647-649.

The two versions that dominated E. Asian attention were those by Param?rtha (with -bh??ya) and the three versions by Xuanzang. Dharmagupta?s translation, done while Xuanzang was a youngster, never rivaled Param?rtha?s version which was the hot item in that period, totally eclipsing Buddha?anta?s earlier effort. Study groups and temples all devoted inordinate attention to Param?rtha?s She lun; everyone studied it, masters lectured on it, it was on the reading list for all Buddhist sects in China, including early Chan. It is precisely due to its defects ? ideological distortions, not just translation errors ? that led Xuanzang to put not only the Mah?y?nasa?graha on his to-do list when he returned from India in 645, but to retranslate Vasubandhu?s comm. and introduce *Asvabh?va?s subcommentary, just to make sure the correct reading of the text would become available in China. When Griffiths, Keenan, et al., worked on the 10th chapter with Hakamaya, they found that the Tibetan of Asvabh?va?s subcommentary basically concurred with Xuanzang?s text ? though, if you read their introduction, they are somewhat struggling with that realization, since another important Japanese scholar, Ui Hakuju, had championed Param?rtha?s texts over Xuanzang?s (another ideological myth with some live embers in Asia) ? and the evidence of the texts they were reading was indicating otherwise.

There are only three Tibetan versions: one for the main text, one for Vasubandhu?s comm., and one for the Asvabh?va subcommentary. The first and third are attributed to basically the same translators, with a redactor homogenizing the third as well. So ?uniformity? is not surprising.

(1) Mah?y?nasa?graha (theg pa chen po bsdus pa)
translation ascribed to Jinamitra, ??lendrabodhi, Ye-shes-sde

(2) Mah?y?nasa?graha-bh??ya (theg pa chen po bsdus pa'i 'grel pa)
translation ascribed to ?t??a D?pa?kara?r?j??na, Nag-tsho Tshul-khrims-rgyal-ba

(3) Mah?y?nasa?grahopanibandhana (theg pa chen po bsdus pa'i bshad sbyar)
translation ascribed to Jinamitra, ??lendrabodhi, Ye-shes-sde
with revisions ascribed to R. Dpal brtsegs

That they agree with Xuanzang?s text would suggest either that Xuanzang and the Tibetans were good at capturing the Sanskrit, or (!) that the Tibetan translations and/or redactions were done with one eye on Xuanzang?s rendition. The Sanskrit has not survived, so we can?t rule either possibility out.

But a bigger issue is the role of redaction, revision, on what becomes the received texts. Even apart from known variants in different editions of the Chinese and Tibetan canons, there were wholesale ?revisions? of many texts, some multiple times.

But more germane to the Chinese vs Tibetan translation issues:

There are two Tib. versions of the Trisvabh?vanirde?a ? one designating Vasubandhu as the original author and the other naming N?g?rjuna as the author. (I don?t think it is possible that either of them had anything to do with it). There are serious discrepancies between these two translations.

Or, to take a more influential text, there are two divergent translations of Dign?ga?s Pram??asamuccaya, both of which, while unavoidable since the Skt was lost, were commonly panned as bad translations. With the recovery of the Skt of Jinendrabuddhi?s -??k?, which retains perhaps 70% of Dign?ga?s original text, we can now see more clearly what the Sanskrit underlying the two Tib translations was, and suddenly some are beginning to say the Tib translations weren?t so bad after all. I suspect that reappraisal is a result of knowing what the Tibetan is *supposed* to indicate, and then finding it there. Reading in the other direction is more fraught.

One could make a similar case for some Chinese translations as well. Some years back a reading group of grad students was reading the Yog?c?rabh?mi with me. Our procedure was to read a passage in Skt, translate it orally, and then look at Xuanzang?s Chinese and translate that. We often looked at the Tibetan as well, esp. for thornier passages. After some weeks, the students, most of whom were Chinese, remarked how impressed they were with Xuanzang?s translation, declaring him great and accurate. I cautioned it only looks that way because they had already worked on the Sanskrit and knew what to look for. They disagreed. So the next session, I had them read Xuanzang?s Chinese version first, and translate that. They cobbled together a plausible reading. Then I had them read the Sanskrit. They immediately recognized the mistakes they had just made. Since they were native readers of Chinese, trained in reading classical and Buddhist Chinese as well as Sanskrit (two had studied Sanskrit and Pali for years in India and Sri Lanka, and one was a monk), the mistakes they made were not ?student? mistakes but natural misreadings that can occur in the absence of the underlying Sanskrit. (Incidentally, on the few occasions when Xuanzang and the Tib diverged, it was almost always because each was offering a legitimate interpretation of what the Sanskrit said, but their interpretations differed.)

One can find better and worse translations in Chinese and Tibetan. Some years back I complained at a conference on Buddhist translations that many of the translations of classic Buddhist texts coming out in English from Tibetan versions of Indian texts were insipid, lacking in conceptual distinctness and clarity (of course, there are many exceptions to that, but that does identify a certain genre of English representations, which I will leave unidentified). One of the conference participants, an important scholar, in defense of those translations, replied: ?To be fair, that?s how they read in Tibetan, too."

As we all know, translation is never as easy as it looks ? and it doesn?t even look easy.

Dan




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180609/00615286/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sat Jun  9 21:34:05 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 18 15:34:05 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <487A2E95-9820-4980-91D8-E8810367448D@bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbcNLCg2KC7wSEzxuiKMQSbC7asqyQR+wCdusG34Dn83A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Camillo,



I think you have provided the only possible answer in our time: for a
unified and unifying terminology use the Sanskrit terminology. It was long
ago possible to have standardized translation terminology adopted in
Tibetan by royal decree; this is not possible today in our highly
individualistic age. Today we may use Sanskrit terms directly, as you
suggest, or we may place them in parentheses after the translation term of
our choice. It is even possible to put them in comprehensive glossaries.
One way or the other, the Sanskrit terms themselves provide the only
realistic option for a unifying terminology.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:37 AM, Camillo Formigatti <
camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
>
>
> This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot,
> thank you!
>
>
>
> If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two
> cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember
> correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and
> translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a
> given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by
> David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much
> needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a
> certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit
> terminology.
>
>
>
> Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an
> undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the
> term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to
> distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent
> philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the
> Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use
> Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations
> either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer
> from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices,
> alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific
> expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If
> we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in
> our own field.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Camillo
>
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180609/abb38c87/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun 10 15:49:34 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 18 08:49:34 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzddK_T4YxhqHBEp1X5U6Nnj2A3w50_79hzmAJkeA3b-ZA@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses:

????? ???? ???? ?????? ????????????? ??? ?

????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????: ???????

Like a father and a loving mother you protect the world, O Krishna.  Like a
kinsman and a friend you are the best among those who please the people.


????? ???? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ?

?????????? ????????????? ??? ????????? ???????

Without you, how can even the blade of grass move?  Only with your will,
the wheel of this world constantly rotates.


????????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ?

???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????

The wheel of the world has twelve spokes, and its hub is in your finger.  The
seasons and the months move along when you move them.


??????????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????????? ?

??????? ?????????? ??????????? ???????? ???????

The night and the day, the moments, hours and watches move along by your
will.


??????? ? ????????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?

??? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???????

There is not even a speck, O M?dhava, where you are not.  You reside in
every pot, every tree and every mountain.


???? ???? ????????? ???????? ???????: ?

????? ???? ? ??????????? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????

In the form of an individual soul, you yourself reside in every body.  Without
you we cannot live, O Krishna.  You are our life.


?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????????? ? ?

??????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????

O Krishna, you are the heart, the mind and the intellect, and you are the
blood flowing in all my veins.


???????? ??????????? ?????? ?? ??????????? ?

?? ?????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ???????

Holding your finger, I walk along the path of the world.  O Krishna, please
do not go elsewhere.  Where can I go without you?


??????? ????? ?? ???? ? ?????? ??????? ?

???: ????? ?? ????: ????? ???????? ???????

I beg for your friendship, O Krishna, and not for your servitude.  You have
many servants, but I am only your friend.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180610/293f7467/attachment.htm>

From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 00:12:39 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 18 18:12:39 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekbcNLCg2KC7wSEzxuiKMQSbC7asqyQR+wCdusG34Dn83A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CfS=n0LLhFzkU6oY3hcrH+O9iozv7wDbbS6fX8524em8g@mail.gmail.com>

I am concerned that the conversation seems to have turned to the idea of a
universal right way to translate.  Isn't this a mistake?  Several people in
this conversation have noted the point about translating differently for
different audiences.  And of course, we're all individuals ("I'm not!" :-)
So there can't possibly be uniformity across translations of the same
text.  Nor should we seek it, any more than we would require that a room
full of painters should produce the same painting of a bowl of fruit.

There is such a thing as error, and sometimes that accounts for very
different translations.  But setting that trivial case aside, there can
still be many good yet different translations that are appropriate to
different audiences and that are done by translators with different
backgrounds and propensities.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca
??



On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 at 15:34, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Camillo,
>
>
>
> I think you have provided the only possible answer in our time: for a
> unified and unifying terminology use the Sanskrit terminology. It was long
> ago possible to have standardized translation terminology adopted in
> Tibetan by royal decree; this is not possible today in our highly
> individualistic age. Today we may use Sanskrit terms directly, as you
> suggest, or we may place them in parentheses after the translation term of
> our choice. It is even possible to put them in comprehensive glossaries.
> One way or the other, the Sanskrit terms themselves provide the only
> realistic option for a unifying terminology.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:37 AM, Camillo Formigatti <
> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>>
>> This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot,
>> thank you!
>>
>>
>>
>> If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two
>> cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember
>> correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and
>> translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a
>> given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by
>> David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much
>> needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a
>> certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit
>> terminology.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an
>> undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the
>> term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to
>> distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent
>> philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the
>> Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use
>> Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations
>> either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer
>> from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices,
>> alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific
>> expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If
>> we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in
>> our own field.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Camillo
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180610/fb6be5bf/attachment.htm>

From spezialef at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 13:10:56 2018
From: spezialef at yahoo.com (Fabrizio Speziale)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 13:10:56 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Applications for Master programme in Asian Studies - EHESS
In-Reply-To: <1167433727.3060674.1528722656742.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1167433727.3060674.1528722656742@mail.yahoo.com>


Applications for 2018-2019 Master programme in Asian Studies


School of Advanced Studies in the SocialSciences (EHESS), Paris


The detailed list of research seminars related to the Master?sprogramme can be found attached and on the website: https://masterasie.hypotheses.org/enseignements
?DeadlineStudents can apply from Mid-May to 25 September 2018.
?How to applyCheck on the entry requirements and application rules (pdf). You canalso visit the dedicated section on the website:?https://masterasie.hypotheses.org/candidater/objectifs-de-la-formation/master-in-asian-studies-english-version
Choosing a tutor or supervisor is a prerequisite before enrollingfor the Master?s programme. You can find here the list of eligible tutors andalso visit the research centres on Asian cultural areas at the EHESS: https://masterasie.hypotheses.org/equipe-pedagogique

Note that most of the courses are dispensed in French language. Allstudents must prove they meet French language requirements, in order to beconsidered for admission. However, since English language is anotherprerequisite for following the courses, the Master thesis during the secondyear can be prepared and written in English.

?

?




FabrizioSpezialeDirecteurd??tudes - Professor?coledes Hautes ?tudes en Sciences SocialesCenterfor South Asian Studies54Boulevard Raspail75006,Paris??
http://www.perso-indica.net/https://ehess.academia.edu/FabrizioSpeziale






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/9be41e47/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: BrochureAMO2018-2019.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 1275245 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/9be41e47/attachment.pdf>

From glhart at berkeley.edu  Mon Jun 11 16:24:18 2018
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 12:24:18 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfS=n0LLhFzkU6oY3hcrH+O9iozv7wDbbS6fX8524em8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8B504E3E-CB8C-41F3-B930-5FBA0556EF1B@berkeley.edu>

Many years ago, Hank Heifetz, a poet and novelist with whom I worked and published several books as a coauthor, wrote for his PhD thesis a tract on translating from classical Indian languages (Sanskrit and Tamil). Many in this forum may be aware of his fine translation of the Kum?rasa?bhava (The Origin of the Young God), published by Penguin. He called the language of the Victorian and stilted translations from Sanskrit that abound Indologese, and he suggested that anyone who wishes to translate from Sanskrit or other South Asian language take the time to read modern English poetry and writing and learn to avoid the stiffness and infelicity that we often see. He showed examples of what he felt were poor and awkward translations and suggested what the problems with them are. It would be wonderful if his thesis were published ? some on this forum might find it useful, even if they disagree with some of Hank?s judgments. See

http://oskicat.berkeley.edu/search~S1?/Xberkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies&searchscope=1&SORT=D/Xberkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies&searchscope=1&SORT=D&SUBKEY=berkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies/101%2C118%2C118%2CB/frameset&FF=Xberkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies&searchscope=1&SORT=D&104%2C104%2C

Unfortunately, a pdf of the work is not available, but if there is interest I could see what could be done to make it more accessible. George

> On Jun 10, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> I am concerned that the conversation seems to have turned to the idea of a universal right way to translate.  Isn't this a mistake?  Several people in this conversation have noted the point about translating differently for different audiences.  And of course, we're all individuals ("I'm not!" :-)  So there can't possibly be uniformity across translations of the same text.  Nor should we seek it, any more than we would require that a room full of painters should produce the same painting of a bowl of fruit.
> 
> There is such a thing as error, and sometimes that accounts for very different translations.  But setting that trivial case aside, there can still be many good yet different translations that are appropriate to different audiences and that are done by translators with different backgrounds and propensities.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>,
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>,
> University of Alberta, Canada.
> South Asia at the U of A:  sas.ualberta.ca  <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>??
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 at 15:34, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear Camillo,
>  
> I think you have provided the only possible answer in our time: for a unified and unifying terminology use the Sanskrit terminology. It was long ago possible to have standardized translation terminology adopted in Tibetan by royal decree; this is not possible today in our highly individualistic age. Today we may use Sanskrit terms directly, as you suggest, or we may place them in parentheses after the translation term of our choice. It is even possible to put them in comprehensive glossaries. One way or the other, the Sanskrit terms themselves provide the only realistic option for a unifying terminology.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:37 AM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk <mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
>  
> 
> This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot, thank you!
> 
>  
> 
> If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit terminology.
> 
>  
> 
> Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices, alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in our own field.
> 
>  
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
>  
> 
> Camillo
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/c094ff2f/attachment.htm>

From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk  Mon Jun 11 16:49:17 2018
From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 16:49:17 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <8B504E3E-CB8C-41F3-B930-5FBA0556EF1B@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <HE1PR04MB305054BF0469017808B4F4FB9C780@HE1PR04MB3050.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

As someone who has read and enjoyed Heifetz? translations, I would certainly like to see his thesis made accessible.
Best wishes,
Ram-Prasad

Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad
Fellow of the British Academy
Distinguished Professor of Comparative Religion and Philosophy
Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion
Lancaster University
UK
_____________________________
From: George Hart via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 5:30 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>


Many years ago, Hank Heifetz, a poet and novelist with whom I worked and published several books as a coauthor, wrote for his PhD thesis a tract on translating from classical Indian languages (Sanskrit and Tamil). Many in this forum may be aware of his fine translation of the Kum?rasa?bhava (The Origin of the Young God), published by Penguin. He called the language of the Victorian and stilted translations from Sanskrit that abound Indologese, and he suggested that anyone who wishes to translate from Sanskrit or other South Asian language take the time to read modern English poetry and writing and learn to avoid the stiffness and infelicity that we often see. He showed examples of what he felt were poor and awkward translations and suggested what the problems with them are. It would be wonderful if his thesis were published ? some on this forum might find it useful, even if they disagree with some of Hank?s judgments. See

http://oskicat.berkeley.edu/search~S1?/Xberkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies&searchscope=1&SORT=D/Xberkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies&searchscope=1&SORT=D&SUBKEY=berkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies/101%2C118%2C118%2CB/frameset&FF=Xberkeley+dissertations+south+and+southeast+asian+studies&searchscope=1&SORT=D&104%2C104%2C

Unfortunately, a pdf of the work is not available, but if there is interest I could see what could be done to make it more accessible. George

On Jun 10, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I am concerned that the conversation seems to have turned to the idea of a universal right way to translate.  Isn't this a mistake?  Several people in this conversation have noted the point about translating differently for different audiences.  And of course, we're all individuals ("I'm not!" :-)  So there can't possibly be uniformity across translations of the same text.  Nor should we seek it, any more than we would require that a room full of painters should produce the same painting of a bowl of fruit.

There is such a thing as error, and sometimes that accounts for very different translations.  But setting that trivial case aside, there can still be many good yet different translations that are appropriate to different audiences and that are done by translators with different backgrounds and propensities.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca<http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
??



On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 at 15:34, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Camillo,

I think you have provided the only possible answer in our time: for a unified and unifying terminology use the Sanskrit terminology. It was long ago possible to have standardized translation terminology adopted in Tibetan by royal decree; this is not possible today in our highly individualistic age. Today we may use Sanskrit terms directly, as you suggest, or we may place them in parentheses after the translation term of our choice. It is even possible to put them in comprehensive glossaries. One way or the other, the Sanskrit terms themselves provide the only realistic option for a unifying terminology.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:37 AM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear all,

This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot, thank you!

If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit terminology.

Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices, alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in our own field.

Best wishes,

Camillo

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/9832a405/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 17:09:14 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 11:09:14 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB1598B251C7D09B63320AE1E5A17A0@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekb5B2hnWJuFt+2g3aPJfqor+1A2UZMx0CZtbjy82YBgGw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,



I am thinking that those who use the word ?literal? approvingly do not
intend thereby to exclude such aspects as syntax, idiom, nuance, etc., even
though the word would usually exclude these aspects. Those who use it in
connection with the Tibetan translations of Sanskrit Buddhist texts
probably could not think of another word to describe what they saw as the
most distinctive characteristic of these translations. I get the impression
that those who use ?literal? approvingly do so for lack of a better word to
indicate contrast with more free translations, meaning by it only less free.


Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.



On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
wrote:

> Dear David and Dan,
>
>
> To my way of thinking the emphasis on "literalness" in translation is
> misplaced.
>
> Tibetan translations give an impression of great literalness because the
> Tibetans adhered rather closely -- sometimes too closely -- to a rigid
> scheme of lexical equivalents. But translation is something more than this;
> it requires sensitivity to syntax, idiom, nuance and more. The great 13th
> c. Tibetan translator Byang-chub-rtse-mo clearly recognized this and is
> quoted in his biography as saying that only poor translators follow the
> MahAvyutpatti with complete faithfulness.
>
>
> It is not difficult to find instances of Tibetan translations that are, to
> all intents and purposes, equally "literal," but that one is a fine,
> elegant work and the other unreadable hash. A case in point is Vasubandhu's
> ADhKBh, a great achievement, vs. Sthiramati's commentary on the ADhk, a
> pretty dismal exercise. And it would not be difficult to multiply the
> examples.
>
>
> I could go on, but my point is concise: in judging the value of a
> translation, literalness is but one value that must be considered alongside
> a range of others. And while I have great respect for Tibetan transmission
> lineages, it would be naive to imagine that sometimes grotesque
> misunderstandings have never crept into tradition. But I'll leave it at
> that.
>
>
> best regards,
>
> Matthew
>
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ------------------------------
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/e25056d1/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 17:17:13 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 11:17:13 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfS=n0LLhFzkU6oY3hcrH+O9iozv7wDbbS6fX8524em8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbyU3groZLi3ciaaPzbDbNxoOkjgUc4BA8UthRi4K6FwA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dominik,



Your cautionary note about the idea of a universal right way to translate
is well taken. Sorry I forgot to qualify what I wrote. It is only for those
who wish to somehow emulate what the Tibetan translations did, with their
unified and unifying translation terminology, that I think the only
possible or realistic answer in our time is to use the Sanskrit terminology.


Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.



On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:12 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I am concerned that the conversation seems to have turned to the idea of a
> universal right way to translate.  Isn't this a mistake?  Several people in
> this conversation have noted the point about translating differently for
> different audiences.  And of course, we're all individuals ("I'm not!" :-)
> So there can't possibly be uniformity across translations of the same
> text.  Nor should we seek it, any more than we would require that a room
> full of painters should produce the same painting of a bowl of fruit.
>
> There is such a thing as error, and sometimes that accounts for very
> different translations.  But setting that trivial case aside, there can
> still be many good yet different translations that are appropriate to
> different audiences and that are done by translators with different
> backgrounds and propensities.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> sas.ualberta.ca
> ??
>
>
>
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 at 15:34, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Camillo,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you have provided the only possible answer in our time: for a
>> unified and unifying terminology use the Sanskrit terminology. It was long
>> ago possible to have standardized translation terminology adopted in
>> Tibetan by royal decree; this is not possible today in our highly
>> individualistic age. Today we may use Sanskrit terms directly, as you
>> suggest, or we may place them in parentheses after the translation term of
>> our choice. It is even possible to put them in comprehensive glossaries.
>> One way or the other, the Sanskrit terms themselves provide the only
>> realistic option for a unifying terminology.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> David Reigle
>> Colorado, U.S.A.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:37 AM, Camillo Formigatti <
>> camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot,
>>> thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two
>>> cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember
>>> correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and
>>> translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a
>>> given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by
>>> David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much
>>> needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a
>>> certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit
>>> terminology.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an
>>> undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the
>>> term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to
>>> distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent
>>> philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the
>>> Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use
>>> Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations
>>> either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer
>>> from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices,
>>> alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific
>>> expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If
>>> we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in
>>> our own field.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Camillo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/3c13b6bf/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Jun 11 17:33:33 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 10:33:33 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comic Sanskrit Verse
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzchEsheeL-LcspRrOs-V9d6gd92YrJ5exDtAWZxNGbv9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Here is my comic Sanskrit verse today:

????????? ????????????????????? ??????: ?
????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??????????: ??

????:

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/2005953b/attachment.htm>

From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Mon Jun 11 21:20:16 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 18 21:20:16 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekb5B2hnWJuFt+2g3aPJfqor+1A2UZMx0CZtbjy82YBgGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB15985391C7FEA146A839E39FA1780@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear David,


Those involved in Tibetan translation often harbor, I think, a mistaken idea of "literalness" and its role in Tibetan translation. They incorrectly believe that creating a fairly consistent table of lexical equivalents is a sign of this "literalness." But if we consider terms such as sangs-rgyas for buddha, or byang-chub for bodhi, we learn that they were neologisms invented to stand in for the Skt. terms in question. That is, they became "literal" equivalents by sustained regular usage.  And when we compare Tibetan translations from Skt. with those from Chinese, we learn that there was a phase during which there was far less certainty about what counted as literally correct.

Tshor-ba, for instance, could be used as an equivalent of Skt. vedanA, "sensation," or of Chinese jue, "awakening." Which one did it "literally" stand for? The question seems to me to be fundamentally misconceived.


"I have hunger" is the literal translation of French "j'ai faim," but is an incorrect translation, in that it makes erroneous use of the target language.


I would agree that translation from Tibetan has become far more nuanced in recent years than it was not long ago. But the traductology remains rudimentary.


all best,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 12:09:14 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein
Cc: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations


Dear Matthew,



I am thinking that those who use the word ?literal? approvingly do not intend thereby to exclude such aspects as syntax, idiom, nuance, etc., even though the word would usually exclude these aspects. Those who use it in connection with the Tibetan translations of Sanskrit Buddhist texts probably could not think of another word to describe what they saw as the most distinctive characteristic of these translations. I get the impression that those who use ?literal? approvingly do so for lack of a better word to indicate contrast with more free translations, meaning by it only less free.


Best regards,


David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu<mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>> wrote:

Dear David and Dan,


To my way of thinking the emphasis on "literalness" in translation is misplaced.

Tibetan translations give an impression of great literalness because the Tibetans adhered rather closely -- sometimes too closely -- to a rigid scheme of lexical equivalents. But translation is something more than this; it requires sensitivity to syntax, idiom, nuance and more. The great 13th c. Tibetan translator Byang-chub-rtse-mo clearly recognized this and is quoted in his biography as saying that only poor translators follow the MahAvyutpatti with complete faithfulness.


It is not difficult to find instances of Tibetan translations that are, to all intents and purposes, equally "literal," but that one is a fine, elegant work and the other unreadable hash. A case in point is Vasubandhu's ADhKBh, a great achievement, vs. Sthiramati's commentary on the ADhk, a pretty dismal exercise. And it would not be difficult to multiply the examples.


I could go on, but my point is concise: in judging the value of a translation, literalness is but one value that must be considered alongside a range of others. And while I have great respect for Tibetan transmission lineages, it would be naive to imagine that sometimes grotesque misunderstandings have never crept into tradition. But I'll leave it at that.


best regards,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180611/6d34a265/attachment.htm>

From christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at  Tue Jun 12 13:25:37 2018
From: christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at (Christian Ferstl)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 18 15:25:37 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Journal Request: Maha Bodhi 52-54 (1944): 84
Message-ID: <3ce886ec8a9890b7d6a293c56c6605b7@univie.ac.at>

Dear list members,

does anyone have access to the issue of the Journal Maha Bodhi 52-54 
from 1944? Page 84(f?) contains a review of Surya Narayana Caudhari's 
book As?vaghos?akr?ta Buddhacarita, if I am not mistaken. I would be 
very grateful for a link to or a PDF of this review.

Thanks a lot,
Christian Ferstl

PhD candidate
University of Vienna





From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk  Tue Jun 12 13:50:03 2018
From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 18 13:50:03 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CfS=n0LLhFzkU6oY3hcrH+O9iozv7wDbbS6fX8524em8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43642760-AC29-4F53-9E29-DD91C9EF77BC@bodleian.ox.ac.uk>

Dear Dominik,

I agree with you in general on the point you raise, but I don?t think the discussion has turned to the idea of a universal right way to translate, not for me at least. The title of the thread was changed to Accuracy in translations and I tried to suggest a practical way of overcoming a specific problem of inaccuracy, which is a totally different thing than trying to find a universal way of translating?as you point out, there are different translators, different audiences and I would also add different target languages that might be involved in the translation of the same text.

I am aware that at the same time I was broadening the scope of the discussion, admittedly to a topic not related to translation techniques, namely the political weight of scholarly disciplines and its influence on the disciplines themselves. This last topic was more important to me when writing my reply, rather than the other.

Best wishes,

Camillo



From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, 11 June 2018 at 03:12
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Accuracy in translations

I am concerned that the conversation seems to have turned to the idea of a universal right way to translate.  Isn't this a mistake?  Several people in this conversation have noted the point about translating differently for different audiences.  And of course, we're all individuals ("I'm not!" :-)  So there can't possibly be uniformity across translations of the same text.  Nor should we seek it, any more than we would require that a room full of painters should produce the same painting of a bowl of fruit.

There is such a thing as error, and sometimes that accounts for very different translations.  But setting that trivial case aside, there can still be many good yet different translations that are appropriate to different audiences and that are done by translators with different backgrounds and propensities.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk<http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca <http://sas.ualberta.ca/>
??


On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 at 15:34, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Camillo,

I think you have provided the only possible answer in our time: for a unified and unifying terminology use the Sanskrit terminology. It was long ago possible to have standardized translation terminology adopted in Tibetan by royal decree; this is not possible today in our highly individualistic age. Today we may use Sanskrit terms directly, as you suggest, or we may place them in parentheses after the translation term of our choice. It is even possible to put them in comprehensive glossaries. One way or the other, the Sanskrit terms themselves provide the only realistic option for a unifying terminology.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.


On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 3:37 AM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear all,

This was an utterly fascinating discussion to read, I?ve learned a lot, thank you!

If I may, I?d like to add my mustard to the discussion, pardon my two cents, even if the discussion seems to have run out of steam. If I remember correctly, no question was raised about the need to always try and translate for instance Sanskrit philosophical terms, which seems to be a given for all of us. The example from Chinese translations provided by David Reigle is very interesting in this respect, because it is a much needed call for a unified and unifying terminology. I believe that to a certain extent we already have a unifying terminology, the Sanskrit terminology.

Again, if I remember correctly from my times in high school and as an undergraduate, no scholar of Classics or Theology has problems using the term logos, for instance, to distinguish it from mythos, or physis to distinguish from nomos, or even to use doxa. If we think of more recent philosophical terms, the Cartesian res cogitans is even included in the Merriam Webster dictionary?pretty much as Dharma. Why shouldn?t we then use Sanskrit terms directly, and obviously provide them with explanations either in the introduction or in notes? Sometimes I think we all suffer from a strange syndrome, namely that we always have to justify our choices, alas sometimes even our right to research, by trying to match specific expectations that other colleagues in similar fields actually disregard. If we always stay on the defensive, I fear that we will lose authority even in our own field.

Best wishes,

Camillo

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180612/702a4e5b/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 12 13:57:24 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 18 06:57:24 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna VErses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdeUBMNhgoJt4Dhr=uAHWSH4hC6MTZAq6NQHghH3=KPog@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses:

??????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?

??????: ???????? ???????????????: ???????

Always dancing in my heart and softly playing your flute, you send its tune
to my ears, unseen by others.


???? ?? ???????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ?

?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ? ???? ???????

Placing words in my speech and meanings in my heart, you make my hands and
feet move, O M?dhava.


??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ????????? ?

??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ????????? ???????

If you make me speak, how can I say that I am speaking?  If you make me
walk, how can I say that I am walking?


??? ????? ??????? ???? ??????????: ?

????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???????

How can I think on my own, if you are the driver of my mind?  You are the
poet in my heart.  How can [I say] I write poetry?


????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ????? ?

????? ??????????????? ?????????? ???????

When you reside on my tongue, Sarasvat?, the Goddess of Learning, comes on
her own.  I am telling a lie that it is my poetry.


?????? ??????? ????????? ????? ????? ????? ?

?????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???????

You yourself compose [my] words and this pen is yours.  This hand is also
yours.  Then how can the poem be mine?


???? ????????? ????????????? ?

????????? ??? ?????? ??????????????? ???????

Your own poetry comes into my hands, O Krishna, and, like a garland of
flowers, I offer it to you.


??? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?

??? ??????? ??????? ? ???? ??? ???????????? ???????

O Krishna, when I look in the mirror of my heart, I only see you.  I don?t
know where I have gone.


?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??????????????? ?

???????? ?? ???????? ????? ??????????????????? ???????

What sort of a play is this that it abducted me from myself.  Entering the
space of my heart, you have exiled me [my ego].


?????? ??????????? ???? ?? ??????????: ?

????????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????

My ego has been removed and you are situated in my heart.  May this palace
be yours.  Mine is only the name.



Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180612/ce07933d/attachment.htm>

From dcgunkel at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 14:34:26 2018
From: dcgunkel at gmail.com (Dieter Gunkel)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 18 16:34:26 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Oldenberg's Kleine Schriften
Message-ID: <CADVOX37Ekn0r+TfgSQhA=feRTdWimNgOVJQJy9pK4OJW2C8Zog@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,
I'm searching for a soft copy of Oldenberg's *Kleine Schriften*.
Best,
Dieter


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180612/eceb0e3a/attachment.htm>

From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Tue Jun 12 18:42:08 2018
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 18 20:42:08 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Scholars proficient in 19th-century Rajasthani dialects
Message-ID: <96e9e181e993236684ee20af7377a68c@fabularasa.dk>

Dear all,

I'm looking for someone proficient in 19th-century Rajasthani dialects 
to help identify the language in a verse on a gy?n caupa? chart from the 
Maharaja Sawai Man Singh II Museum in Jaipur. I thought that I would 
start here as this diverse and learned group might have a few obvious 
suggestions up their sleeve.

Kind regards,
Jacob

Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
PhD Fellow (Indology)
University of Copenhagen
Denmark





From oleg.bendz at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 14 09:10:09 2018
From: oleg.bendz at yahoo.com (Oleg Bendz)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 18 09:10:09 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Oldenberg's Kleine Schriften
In-Reply-To: <CADVOX37Ekn0r+TfgSQhA=feRTdWimNgOVJQJy9pK4OJW2C8Zog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2004480929.4807214.1528967409300@mail.yahoo.com>

2018-06-14
Dear Dieter:
I have an interest in Sanskrit accentology.? I must simply say that finding Oldenberg's material is extremely challenging.I have forever wondered why that is.I shall look through my materials for "Kleine Schriften."More to come.Thank you.Oleg Bendz
 

    On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:35 AM, Dieter Gunkel via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
 

 Dear all,?I'm searching for a soft copy of Oldenberg's Kleine Schriften.Best,?Dieter_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


   


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180614/f2741ba1/attachment.htm>

From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 14 09:23:12 2018
From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 18 09:23:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] just published: BEFEO volume 103 (2017)
Message-ID: <HE1PR0902MB175385AF1A158380DDD94005A57D0@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>

BEFEO volume 103 contains several items of Indological interest. See the table of contents here:


<http://news.efeo.fr:3000/archive/H1oCoo1Z7/r1_0YP-JQ/rJPIz9PW1Q>


The contents of the volume will be available on JSTOR one year from now.


Arlo Griffiths

Book review editor for BEFEO






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180614/c2d966b8/attachment.htm>

From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 13:05:28 2018
From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 18 18:35:28 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Phanigiri Inscriptions
Message-ID: <CAK2tbYySJ48OVtzSgEduX_C56fTSoy4dU9-87JYGLBaQmyEgZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Members

I am searching for Phanigiri: A Buddhist Site in Andhra Pradesh: an Interim
Report, 2001-2007 by B. Subrahmanyam. Kindly share if anyone has the same
regards
Rupali Mokashi




*http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/* <http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180614/886cf0d4/attachment.htm>

From gthomgt at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 20:30:05 2018
From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 18 16:30:05 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Oldenberg's Kleine Schriften
In-Reply-To: <2004480929.4807214.1528967409300@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1Y1zvLVFXyAHwj-8=VfaicqS=PTAXUBx5YuN8_UcpgC2U_uQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Oldenberg's  Kleine Schriften consists of two big volumes that consist of
about 1600 pages.  It seems to me that it is very unlikely that there is a
soft copy of it....

Best wishes,

George Thompson

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 5:10 AM, Oleg Bendz via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> 2018-06-14
>
> Dear Dieter:
>
> I have an interest in Sanskrit accentology.  I must simply say that finding
> Oldenberg's material is *extremely* challenging.
> I have forever wondered why that is.
> I shall look through my materials for "Kleine Schriften."
> More to come.
> Thank you.
> Oleg Bendz
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:35 AM, Dieter Gunkel via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>
> Dear all,
> I'm searching for a soft copy of Oldenberg's *Kleine Schriften*.
> Best,
> Dieter
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180614/7f11e4cd/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 21:31:29 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 18 15:31:29 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Oldenberg's Kleine Schriften
In-Reply-To: <CAP1Y1zvLVFXyAHwj-8=VfaicqS=PTAXUBx5YuN8_UcpgC2U_uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbPh94kno-fH-A40ptw514bhQuXsOfZbyV=8pq5a-b3zw@mail.gmail.com>

At present, Oldenberg's Kleine Schriften is available at a reduced price
from the publisher, Harrassowitz Verlag, under "Special Offers", for 99
Euros:

https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Kleine_Schriften_I_und_II/title_1872.ahtml

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:30 PM, George Thompson via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> Oldenberg's  Kleine Schriften consists of two big volumes that consist of
> about 1600 pages.  It seems to me that it is very unlikely that there is a
> soft copy of it....
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George Thompson
>
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 5:10 AM, Oleg Bendz via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> 2018-06-14
>>
>> Dear Dieter:
>>
>> I have an interest in Sanskrit accentology.  I must simply say that finding
>> Oldenberg's material is *extremely* challenging.
>> I have forever wondered why that is.
>> I shall look through my materials for "Kleine Schriften."
>> More to come.
>> Thank you.
>> Oleg Bendz
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:35 AM, Dieter Gunkel via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> I'm searching for a soft copy of Oldenberg's *Kleine Schriften*.
>> Best,
>> Dieter
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180614/d71d6fc7/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun 15 01:24:43 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 18 18:24:43 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfc7ogQn42mM-u7+0n+bpBALKXYQHzE6LgcgmSk-Qyr+g@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses:

??????? ????????? ?? ???? ???????? ?

??????? ?? ????????? ???? ??:?????? ??????? ???????

O Krishna, your play on the banks of Yamun? is so delightful.  On the other
hand, our play on the stage of this world is sometimes unhappy.


????????????????????????????? ?????: ?

??????????? ?????????? ?????????? ??:??? ??????????

You are the Lord untouched by afflictions, actions and fruition. [Yogas?tra
1.24].  Then, why is it that for us, who are specks of yours, there is a
painful touch of all these, O Lord?


? ????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ?

??????? ???????????? ??? ?????? ???? ???????

O Lord, I do not suspect that you are uneven or cruel.  You give us the
fruit in proportion of our Karma, O Lord.


????? ?? ?????????? ???? ?? ??????????? ?

????????? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ??: ???????

Still I do have a doubt as to why I have this bondage of Karma.  Is it
appropriate to say that my bondage of Karma is without beginning?


??????????? ??????? ??????????????? ??????: ?

???????????????????? ???? ?? ??????????? ???????

O Lord, you are without beginning, and you are untouched by Karma.  If I am
a speck of yours and equally without beginning, why do I have the bondage
of Karma?


??????????? ??????????????????????? ? ?????? ?

?????? ? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????: ???: ???????

If the bondage of Karma is without beginning, then there is no cause for
its existence.  I have not committed a crime, and yet why am I locked up in
a prison?


????? ????????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?

????????????? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????

O Lord, if there is an answer, please tell me.  O Lord, do not cause
delusion in my mind with mixed up words.


?????????? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ???????: ?

??????????????????? ???? ? ?? ???? ???????

Even after hearing your words [in the Bhagavad Gita], I still have
confusion in mind.  O M?dhava, this is my own fault, a dullard, and not
yours.


????????? ? ?? ?????????????? ???????? ?

??? ????? ???????? ??????? ??????????? ???????

Dancing on the banks of Yamun?, you have no bondage of Karma.  O Krishna,
how will you understand our pains of Karma?


?????????? ?????? ???????: ?????? ?????????? ?

????? ????????? ??????????? ????? ?? ???? ???????

While resting on the cosmic ocean, Lakshmi presses your feet and the cosmic
snake Shesha holds a shade for you.  Why would you have a worry?


??????? ?????????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?

??????? ???????????????????? ???????

O Krishna, if you wake up for a moment, please look at our difficult
circumstances that have no cause.


????? ??????? ??????????? ??? ?: ????????? ?

???????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ???????

With you being awake, how can we have the pain of Karma?  O Lord, is it
justified?  You decide for yourself.


??? ?: ?????????????? ?? ???????? ???? ?

?????? ?????: ????????? ???????? ???? ????? ???????

If we do have a bondage of Karma, O Lord, please remove it.  If we do not
have a bondage of Karma, then happily go to sleep on the ocean.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180614/69f22548/attachment.htm>

From rhododaktylos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 14:47:18 2018
From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 18 15:47:18 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Online Sanskrit Course
Message-ID: <CAEjEOsBqXUHQSec_CdpUQi7nWwUNONGYh0D5TofaOLMCiz0iuA@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear all,

Following the positive reactions to last year?s (and still ongoing) course,
I will again be offering an online Sanskrit course based on my textbook,
The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit.

- The course will start October 1.
- It will require about three hours of work per week and will take you
through the book in about two years.
- Participants will receive weekly emails (sent through google groups) that
set a certain amount of work and list the various resources that will take
them through that material: in addition to the relevant pages of the book,
each chapter comes with its own video and online flashcards as well as
freely downloadable supplementary handouts.
- There is no fixed course time; anyone can do the work and access the
materials at whatever time(s) during the week that best suits them.
- Exercises from the textbook will be assigned each week, and the Key to
them provided.
- Each week concludes with a self-graded test; and every six or so
chapters, there will be a more comprehensive exam.

There are no fees, no credits and no certificates; the course?s sole
purpose is to help people learn Sanskrit. The only costs participants incur
are the money for the textbook and the time they spend on their work each
week.

If you are interested (or know someone who might be), please join the
google group for the course:

cis-study-group-2018+subscribe at googlegroups.com

(You can unsubscribe at any time.)

There also is a Facebook group used for asking questions about each week?s
material and anything else relating to the course:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/CambridgeIntroToSanskrit/

Any questions, please email me at cambridge.sanskrit at gmail.com. Feel free
to forward this email widely. As attachments sometimes don?t make it
through on mailing lists, I have simply added the text of the syllabus for
the first term at the bottom of this email.

All the best,
    Antonia

PS: The ongoing course currently is on Chapter 12 of the textbook; get in
touch with me if you'd like to join that.



*The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit: An Online Course*



*Syllabus*



*General*

This document gives you an overview of what material from the *Cambridge
Introduction to Sanskrit *(CIS) will be covered each week.



Starting on September 28, there will be a *new email and Facebook group
update every Friday*. This email will include details on (1) how to
approach the coming week?s material and (2), from the end of the first week
on, a test on the material you have just studied. Each test will come with
a key to the answers and a grade scale, allowing you to check your own
work, see what progress you have made and which material you may want to
look over again.



*Textbook*

A.M. Ruppel, *The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit *(Cambridge University
Press). ISBN: 978-1107459069 (international edition, paperback);
978-1108439152 (South Asian edition, paperback). (Both have identical
content.)



*Other Resources*

For each Chapter, there is an accompanying YouTube video, the direct link
to which will be included in each week?s email. For all new verb and noun
forms, as well as for all Sanskrit characters and *sandhi* forms (relevant
later!), there are flash cards on the CIS Brainscape account. There also
are a variety of downloadable handouts. All of these can be accessed via
the CIS website, *www.cambridge-sanskrit.org
<http://www.cambridge-sanskrit.org/>*.



*Study Suggestions*

Don?t try to do too much at once. When you read a new content section, do
that for 30-45 minutes. But when you memorise new material, repeated
sessions of no more than 10-15 minutes are best. (Google *?Spaced
Repetition?* and read the Wikipedia entry on this topic for some ideas on
how to memorise new material.)



*A Practical Point*

Sanskrit isn?t easy. This course tries to make it easier by suggesting a
pace that should allow you to digest new material before going on to the
next chunk, and by providing a variety of resources that will hopefully
offer something to everyone. Still, the material *is* challenging, so if
you ever find yourself struggling, remind yourself the problem is *not* that
you are not good enough. You?re finding it challenging because it is
challenging. And if you have any specific questions, do post them in the
Facebook group.



*Overview of Assignments*



*Week 0 (now ? October 1)*

Read *Chapter 0*. (Yes, it?s just the introduction, but seriously, do
it:-)! You?ll find it useful.)



*Week 1 (Oct 1-7)*

*Chapter 1* p. 9 to middle of p. 12

Test: Reading and writing single *devan?gar?* characters.



*Week 2 (Oct 8-14)*

*Chapter 1* p. 12 to top of p. 14

Test: Combining consonants and vowels, using *anusv?ra* and *visarga*.



*Week 3 (Oct 15-21)*

*Chapter 1*: rest of chapter

Test: Reading (not writing) conjunct consonants; reviewing all the material
of Chapter 1 (reading/writing *devan?gar?*).



*Week 4 (Oct 22-28)*

*Chapter 2*

Test: The new concepts from Chapter 2, more reading/writing revision.



*Week 5 (Oct 29-Nov 4)*

*Chapter 2a*, *Chapter 3* pp. 29-30

(Note: Chapter 2a should be read, but will not be tested.)

Test: The new concepts from pp.29-30; more reading/writing revision.



*Week 6 (Nov 5-11)*

*Chapter 3* pp.  31-end

Test: The new concepts in the rest of Chapter 3; the Vocabulary on p. 35 (I
will give you the Sanskrit words and you will need to provide their English
meaning).



*Week 7 (Nov 12-18)*

*Chapter 4* p. 38-top of p. 40

Test: the present active indicative endings of verbs; how to form the
present stem of Class I, IV and VI verbs; the present active indicative
paradigm of ?*bh?*.



*Week 8 (Nov 19-25)*

*Chapter 4* p. 40-end.

Test: Chapter 4 vocabulary, present-tense forms of the verbs in Chapter 4
vocabulary.



*Week 9 (Nov 26-Dec 2)*

*Chapter 5* pp. 43-48, p. 51

Test: The new concepts from pp. 43-48; the first half of Chapter 5
vocabulary (*nagaram* to *deva?*).



*Week 10 (Dec 3-9)*

*Chapter 5* p.48-end

Test: The new concepts from pp. 48-50; the second half of Chapter 5
vocabulary (*nara?* to *iva*).



*Week 11 (Dec 10-16)*

*Chapter 6* p. 57, 60

Test: The forms of *deva*-, the first half of Chapter 6 vocabulary (*puru?a*-
to *yuddha-*).



*Week 12 (Dec 17-23)*

*Chapter 6* pp. 58-end

Test: The forms of *vana*-, the new concepts on pp. 58-59; second half of
Chapter 6 vocabulary.



*Dec 24-Jan 6: Winter Break (Summer Break for Antipodeans!)*

Enjoy some time off! (Or if you prefer, use the time to start reviewing for
the big January test).



*Week 13 (Jan 7-13)*

*Revision week*

Test: Chapter 1-6 material.

Questionnaire: What should stay the same about the course, what would you
like to see changed?



(The week after, the course will continue with Chapter 7. The details for
this will be available from around mid-December on.)


-- 
Dr Antonia Ruppel
www.cambridge-sanskrit.org


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180616/10e87938/attachment.htm>

From franco at uni-leipzig.de  Sun Jun 17 09:13:08 2018
From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 18 11:13:08 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Summer school in spoken Sanskrit in Leipzig
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0902MB175385AF1A158380DDD94005A57D0@HE1PR0902MB1753.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20180617111308.Horde.VQ6SsSDq9zQOYi2V4V2ORQz@mail.uni-leipzig.de>


Dear friends and colleagues,

There are a few places left for the summer school in spoken Sanskrit  
in Leipzig (3rd to 30th of August).
For details please see

https://home.uni-leipzig.de/sprachen/es/unsere-kurse/sanskrit/

I would be grateful if you could convey this information to potential  
participants.

Please note that this year we also have an advanced summer school in  
spoken Sanskrit in September (open to those who completed the regular  
course or have similar qualifications); see:

https://home.uni-leipzig.de/sprachen/es/unsere-kurse/sanskrit/

With best wishes,
Eli


-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148







From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 19:43:21 2018
From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 18 15:43:21 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book: Modern Hinduism in Text and Context
Message-ID: <0FA9E61E-62B4-4E05-9C2C-5BDD90C2E053@gmail.com>



Hello All, 
Sorry about touting my own horn! But happy to inform you that my edited volume, Modern Hinduism in Text and Context, is just published. Please check it out on the Bloomsbury website below: 
https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/modern-hinduism-in-text-and-context-9781350045095/
Thank you. 
Lavanya 


Lavanya Vemsani 
Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies)
Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences
Shawnee State University 
Portsmouth OH 45662
Phone: 740-351-3233
Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies 
Editor-in-Chief 
American Journal of Indic Studies


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180617/0bd8432d/attachment.htm>

From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Sun Jun 17 21:42:12 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 18 23:42:12 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
Message-ID: <20180617234212.714c2b1cba615ad1a8b04b4a@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear colleagues,

I have  a small group of students interested in the S??khyak?rik? and we have a seminar where we interpret this text with the help of classical (pre-Kaumud?) commentaries (mainly Yuktid?pik?). When reading SK 10, we encountered a problem which I could not answer.

SK 10 defines vyakta and says that avyakta has opposite characteristics. One of these characteristics is non-pervasiveness (avy?pi? vyaktam vipar?tam avyaktam). Almost all commentaries are clear and say that vyakta is not all-pervasive, but avyakta and puru?a are.

Gau?ap?da:
avy?pi ? asarvagam ity artha? / yath? pradh?napuru?au sarvagatau naiva? vyaktam /

M??harav?tti is almost the same.

Param?rtha: 
pradh?napuru?au sarvatra p?thivy?m antarik?e divi ca vy?pnuta? / mahad?di k?ryantu na tath? / asarvagamatatv?t, tasm?t prak?tivibhinnam /

S??khyav?tti: 
avy?pi ? na vy?pi mahad?di li?gam asarvagatam ity artha? / yath? pradh?napuru?au divi bhuvi c?ntarik?e ca vartete [tath?] tanmahad?di li?ga? na vartante / ki?c?nyat avy?pi vyaktam asarvagatatv?t / vy?pi pradh?nam, kasm?t, sarvagatatv?t /

S??khyasaptativ?tti is similar.

Yuktid?pik? is unfortunately missing for this passage, but I think that in other part (ad SK 19 on puru?a?s akart?bh?va) it also subscribes to the concept that puru?a is all-pervasive. It says that since pradh?na is all-pervasive and creative, all-pervasive puru?a should be also creative. This possibility is of course denied (vibhutv?d iti cet / sy?d etat / yath? vibhutve sati pradh?nasya sakriyatvam eva? puru?asya sati vibhutve sakriyatvena bhavitavyam iti / tac ca naivam / Wezler-Motegi, p. 180).

Now, Jayama?gal? says this:
avy?pi vyaktam, vy?py avyaktam / puru?o'pi vy?p? yad? prak?ty? mukta? / yukta? cet vyaktena sad??o  na pradh?nena / hi sarvad? dev?di?u pravartate /

This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.


Many thanks
With best regards
Lubomir

-- 
Lubom?r Ondra?ka
Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies
Faculty of Arts, Charles University
Nam. J. Palacha 2, Praha 1, 116 38
CZECH REPUBLIC
e-mail: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz





From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Mon Jun 18 02:54:27 2018
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 02:54:27 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
Message-ID: <1529289888.S.29566.autosave.drafts.1529290467.27523@webmail.rediffmail.com>

It's true there are logical flaws in Samkhya karika which has been aptly pointed out by the AdwaityaVadins in BrahmaSutras.However Purusha in Samkhya is indeed the Atmana,or the Emancipated Alone.....and Atmana is always all -pervasive, irrespective of space and time .
Alakendu Das.

Sent from RediffmailNG on Android




From: Lubom  r Ondra  ka via INDOLOGY &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Sent: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 03:12:07 GMT+0530
To: &lt;indology at list.indology.info&gt;
Subject: [INDOLOGY] all-pervasive puru?a in classical S??khya

Dear colleagues,



I have &nbsp;a small group of students interested in the S??khyak?rik? and we have a seminar where we interpret this text with the help of classical (pre-Kaumud?) commentaries (mainly Yuktid?pik?). When reading SK 10, we encountered a problem which I could not answer.



SK 10 defines vyakta and says that avyakta has opposite characteristics. One of these characteristics is non-pervasiveness (avy?pi? vyaktam vipar?tam avyaktam). Almost all commentaries are clear and say that vyakta is not all-pervasive, but avyakta and puru?a are.



Gau?ap?da:

avy?pi ?&nbsp;asarvagam ity artha? / yath? pradh?napuru?au sarvagatau naiva? vyaktam /



M??harav?tti is almost the same.



Param?rtha: 

pradh?napuru?au sarvatra p?thivy?m antarik?e divi ca vy?pnuta? / mahad?di k?ryantu na tath? / asarvagamatatv?t, tasm?t prak?tivibhinnam /



S??khyav?tti: 

avy?pi ?&nbsp;na vy?pi mahad?di li?gam asarvagatam ity artha? / yath? pradh?napuru?au divi bhuvi c?ntarik?e ca vartete [tath?] tanmahad?di li?ga? na vartante / ki?c?nyat avy?pi vyaktam asarvagatatv?t / vy?pi pradh?nam, kasm?t, sarvagatatv?t /



S??khyasaptativ?tti is similar.



Yuktid?pik? is unfortunately missing for this passage, but I think that in other part (ad SK 19 on puru?a?s akart?bh?va) it also subscribes to the concept that puru?a is all-pervasive. It says that since pradh?na is all-pervasive and creative, all-pervasive puru?a should be also creative. This possibility is of course denied (vibhutv?d iti cet / sy?d etat / yath? vibhutve sati pradh?nasya sakriyatvam eva? puru?asya sati vibhutve sakriyatvena bhavitavyam iti / tac ca naivam / Wezler-Motegi, p. 180).



Now, Jayama?gal? says this:

avy?pi vyaktam, vy?py avyaktam / puru?o'pi vy?p? yad? prak?ty? mukta? / yukta? cet vyaktena sad??o &nbsp;na pradh?nena / hi sarvad? dev?di?u pravartate /



This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.





Many thanks

With best regards

Lubomir



-- 

Lubom?r Ondra?ka

Department of Philosophy &amp; Religious Studies

Faculty of Arts, Charles University

Nam. J. Palacha 2, Praha 1, 116 38

CZECH REPUBLIC

e-mail: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz



_______________________________________________

INDOLOGY mailing list

INDOLOGY at list.indology.info

indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)

http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/2d2d6290/attachment.htm>

From giles.r.hooper at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 03:29:51 2018
From: giles.r.hooper at gmail.com (Giles Hooper)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 13:29:51 +1000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Seeking help with problem compiling word index in Pages
Message-ID: <CANtzjMpevcaeAt0kxOwKj1f6zMATu0WuUcZ8vok5Lke08townA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List Members

I have been compiling a Word Index for some translations I have been doing
for my PhD thesis. The word entries are in transliterated roman with
diacritical marks.

I use a Mac and have been compiling the list in a Table using Apple's word
processing software, Pages. Unfortunately, that software does not allow me
to go beyond 1000 rows which I wasn't told before I started. I have reached
that limit and have only completed half the index. A search on the internet
has not turned up anything about how, if at all, I can extend the Table. I
obviously can't start a new Table and continue with that at the end of the
one I've already finished.

I assume I will now have to resort to some specific software for compiling
a simple Word Index and transfer the material I have already compiled into
the new software.

1. Am I correct in my assumption or is anyone aware of a way I can continue
to use the Table I have already started in Pages?

2. Can any list member with experience in compiling word indexes recommend
any software that is straightforward to use and Mac compatible?

3. What other options might I have?

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Yours in hope

Giles Hooper
PhD Candidate
University of Sydney
Australia


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/1104f2b5/attachment.htm>

From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 03:56:21 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 09:26:21 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <1529289888.S.29566.autosave.drafts.1529290467.27523@webmail.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZb163g6Mf6MFZGfTpihoYr1fE3a9nCArABmvVsMGoK3w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Lubomir-ji,

avy?pi vyaktam, vy?py avyaktam / puru?o'pi vy?p? yad? prak?ty? mukta? /
yukta? cet vyaktena sad??o  na pradh?nena / hi sarvad? dev?di?u pravartate /

yad? prak?ty? mukta? is just solving a logical problem.

As long as  puru?a is bound with  prak?ti, it has the features of prak?ti.
Since  prak?ti is  avy?pi ,   as long as  puru?a is bound with  prak?ti ,
puru?a  is also avy?pi. But being  vy?pi  is the nature of   puru?a . When
is this nature  puru?a found? When it is not bound to  prak?ti .


On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 8:24 AM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> It's true there are logical flaws in Samkhya karika which has been aptly
> pointed out by the AdwaityaVadins in BrahmaSutras.However Purusha in
> Samkhya is indeed the Atmana,or the Emancipated Alone.....and Atmana is
> always all -pervasive, irrespective of space and time .
>
> Alakendu Das.
>
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>
>
>
>
> From: Lubom r Ondra ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 03:12:07 GMT+0530
> To: <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] all-pervasive puru?a in classical S??khya
>
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I have  a small group of students interested in the S??khyak?rik? and we
> have a seminar where we interpret this text with the help of classical
> (pre-Kaumud?) commentaries (mainly Yuktid?pik?). When reading SK 10, we
> encountered a problem which I could not answer.
>
> SK 10 defines vyakta and says that avyakta has opposite characteristics.
> One of these characteristics is non-pervasiveness (avy?pi? vyaktam
> vipar?tam avyaktam). Almost all commentaries are clear and say that vyakta
> is not all-pervasive, but avyakta and puru?a are.
>
> Gau?ap?da:
> avy?pi ? asarvagam ity artha? / yath? pradh?napuru?au sarvagatau naiva?
> vyaktam /
>
> M??harav?tti is almost the same.
>
> Param?rtha:
> pradh?napuru?au sarvatra p?thivy?m antarik?e divi ca vy?pnuta? / mahad?di
> k?ryantu na tath? / asarvagamatatv?t, tasm?t prak?tivibhinnam /
>
> S??khyav?tti:
> avy?pi ? na vy?pi mahad?di li?gam asarvagatam ity artha? / yath?
> pradh?napuru?au divi bhuvi c?ntarik?e ca vartete [tath?] tanmahad?di li?ga?
> na vartante / ki?c?nyat avy?pi vyaktam asarvagatatv?t / vy?pi pradh?nam,
> kasm?t, sarvagatatv?t /
>
> S??khyasaptativ?tti is similar.
>
> Yuktid?pik? is unfortunately missing for this passage, but I think that in
> other part (ad SK 19 on puru?a?s akart?bh?va) it also subscribes to the
> concept that puru?a is all-pervasive. It says that since pradh?na is
> all-pervasive and creative, all-pervasive puru?a should be also creative.
> This possibility is of course denied (vibhutv?d iti cet / sy?d etat / yath?
> vibhutve sati pradh?nasya sakriyatvam eva? puru?asya sati vibhutve
> sakriyatvena bhavitavyam iti / tac ca naivam / Wezler-Motegi, p. 180).
>
> Now, Jayama?gal? says this:
> avy?pi vyaktam, vy?py avyaktam / puru?o'pi vy?p? yad? prak?ty? mukta? /
> yukta? cet vyaktena sad??o  na pradh?nena / hi sarvad? dev?di?u pravartate /
>
> This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive
> only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense
> similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could
> puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And
> where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help
> me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this
> seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on
> puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get
> the right answers.
>
>
> Many thanks
> With best regards
> Lubomir
>
> --
> Lubom?r Ondra?ka
> Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies
> Faculty of Arts, Charles University
> Nam. J. Palacha 2, Praha 1, 116 38
> CZECH REPUBLIC
> e-mail: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/ea07e542/attachment.htm>

From sprajapati22 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 12:53:22 2018
From: sprajapati22 at yahoo.com (Dr. Sweta Prajapati)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 12:53:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lecture
In-Reply-To: <593055334.1969641.1529326402264.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <593055334.1969641.1529326402264@mail.yahoo.com>





Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/6cf0d753/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG-20180618-WA0010.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 117201 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/6cf0d753/attachment.jpg>

From kiepue at t-online.de  Mon Jun 18 13:29:52 2018
From: kiepue at t-online.de (petra kieffer-puelz)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 15:29:52 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] BL&S II
Message-ID: <B547F4BE-3483-4A6E-966A-EF2A887311CC@t-online.de>

Dear All,

I?d like to announce the publication of the second volume of Buddhism, Law & Society.

Petra Kieffer-P?lz
Buddhism, Law & Society. Vol.  2 ? 2016?2017

CONTENTS

Rebecca Redwood French ? Editor's Introduction, vii?xvii

Jens W. Borgland ? ?Undetermined Matters: On the Use of Lay Witnesses in Buddhist Monastic Procedural Law?, pp. 1?55

Vesna A. Wallace ? ?The Interface of Mongolian Nomadic Culture, Law and Monastic Sexual Morality?, pp. 57?75

Richard W. Whitecross ? ?Of Texts and Drama: Delivering Justice in Bhutan?, pp. 77?101

Petra Kieffer-P?lz ? ?Translocal Debates and Legal Hermeneutics: Early P?li Vinaya Texts in the Adjudication of S?m? Procedures, c. 1200?1900 CE?, pp. 103?158

Ann Heirman ? ?Withdrawal from the Monastic Community and Re-ordination of Former Monastics in the Dharmaguptaka Tradition?, pp. 159?196

Shayne Clarke ? ?Lost in Tibet, Found in Bhutan: The Unique Nature of the M?lasarv?stiv?din Law Code for Nuns?, pp. 197?291




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/995bc152/attachment.htm>

From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Mon Jun 18 16:04:17 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 18:04:17 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <95696A01-C409-4095-A8C7-E4F862B31657@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180618180417.615cf8c8feaf9fcb67f9f4fa@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Dan,

thanks for this reference. As you say, this reflects a pre-classical or proto-S??khya teaching; in classical S??khya all puru?as are the same, there are no different types or kinds of puru?as. 

Jayama?gal? is probably the latest among the pre-Kaumud? commentaries and stays a bit apart from other commentaries. Sure, it might reflect some older teaching that survived outside the S??khya mainstream. But the question whether each puru?a is all-pervasive all the time or only when liberated seems to me rather crucial. All commentaries apparently take it for granted that puru?as are all-pervasive all the time, only Jayama?gal? for some reason distinguishes between liberated and non-liberated puru?a. This puzzles me. 

I simply do not understand how could puru?a (being an absolutely passive, reflective consciousness devoid of any activity) have any capacity for changing itself?

Best,
Lubomir


On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:54:32 -040;
Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Lubom?r,
> 
> If I understand correctly what you are asking, then one place to look would be the Bhagavad G?t?, XV.16-19 (though the G?t? reflects a pre-classical form of S??khya, in which, e.g., puru?a is still causal) which mentions three types of puru?a: K?ara puru?a, Ak?ara puru?a, and Puru?ottama (only the last is equivalent to Param?tman).
> 
> best wishes,
> Dan
> 
> > On Jun 17, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> > 
> > This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.
> 





From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Mon Jun 18 16:18:22 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 18:18:22 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eZb163g6Mf6MFZGfTpihoYr1fE3a9nCArABmvVsMGoK3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180618181822.dc831d68b5e8211e74b73622@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Nagaraj-ji,

thanks for your answer. Well, I understand what the Jayama?gal? says, but I am not able to reconcile it with my understanding of the classical S??khya teaching. As we know, puru?a, being an absolutely different ontological category from prak?ti, in fact cannot be ever bound by or released from prak?ti. This is not possible, as SK 62ab clearly says: tasm?n na badhyate n?pi mucyate n?pi sa?sarati ka?cit.

Best,
Lubomir


On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 09:26:21 +0530
Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Lubomir-ji,
> 
> avy?pi vyaktam, vy?py avyaktam / puru?o'pi vy?p? yad? prak?ty? mukta? /
> yukta? cet vyaktena sad??o  na pradh?nena / hi sarvad? dev?di?u pravartate /
> 
> yad? prak?ty? mukta? is just solving a logical problem.
> 
> As long as  puru?a is bound with  prak?ti, it has the features of prak?ti.
> Since  prak?ti is  avy?pi ,   as long as  puru?a is bound with  prak?ti ,
> puru?a  is also avy?pi. But being  vy?pi  is the nature of   puru?a . When
> is this nature  puru?a found? When it is not bound to  prak?ti .
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 8:24 AM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> > It's true there are logical flaws in Samkhya karika which has been aptly
> > pointed out by the AdwaityaVadins in BrahmaSutras.However Purusha in
> > Samkhya is indeed the Atmana,or the Emancipated Alone.....and Atmana is
> > always all -pervasive, irrespective of space and time .
> >
> > Alakendu Das.
> >
> > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Lubom r Ondra ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Sent: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 03:12:07 GMT+0530
> > To: <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Subject: [INDOLOGY] all-pervasive puru?a in classical S??khya
> >
> >
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > I have  a small group of students interested in the S??khyak?rik? and we
> > have a seminar where we interpret this text with the help of classical
> > (pre-Kaumud?) commentaries (mainly Yuktid?pik?). When reading SK 10, we
> > encountered a problem which I could not answer.
> >
> > SK 10 defines vyakta and says that avyakta has opposite characteristics.
> > One of these characteristics is non-pervasiveness (avy?pi? vyaktam
> > vipar?tam avyaktam). Almost all commentaries are clear and say that vyakta
> > is not all-pervasive, but avyakta and puru?a are.
> >
> > Gau?ap?da:
> > avy?pi ? asarvagam ity artha? / yath? pradh?napuru?au sarvagatau naiva?
> > vyaktam /
> >
> > M??harav?tti is almost the same.
> >
> > Param?rtha:
> > pradh?napuru?au sarvatra p?thivy?m antarik?e divi ca vy?pnuta? / mahad?di
> > k?ryantu na tath? / asarvagamatatv?t, tasm?t prak?tivibhinnam /
> >
> > S??khyav?tti:
> > avy?pi ? na vy?pi mahad?di li?gam asarvagatam ity artha? / yath?
> > pradh?napuru?au divi bhuvi c?ntarik?e ca vartete [tath?] tanmahad?di li?ga?
> > na vartante / ki?c?nyat avy?pi vyaktam asarvagatatv?t / vy?pi pradh?nam,
> > kasm?t, sarvagatatv?t /
> >
> > S??khyasaptativ?tti is similar.
> >
> > Yuktid?pik? is unfortunately missing for this passage, but I think that in
> > other part (ad SK 19 on puru?a?s akart?bh?va) it also subscribes to the
> > concept that puru?a is all-pervasive. It says that since pradh?na is
> > all-pervasive and creative, all-pervasive puru?a should be also creative.
> > This possibility is of course denied (vibhutv?d iti cet / sy?d etat / yath?
> > vibhutve sati pradh?nasya sakriyatvam eva? puru?asya sati vibhutve
> > sakriyatvena bhavitavyam iti / tac ca naivam / Wezler-Motegi, p. 180).
> >
> > Now, Jayama?gal? says this:
> > avy?pi vyaktam, vy?py avyaktam / puru?o'pi vy?p? yad? prak?ty? mukta? /
> > yukta? cet vyaktena sad??o  na pradh?nena / hi sarvad? dev?di?u pravartate /
> >
> > This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive
> > only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense
> > similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could
> > puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And
> > where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help
> > me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this
> > seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on
> > puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get
> > the right answers.
> >
> >
> > Many thanks
> > With best regards
> > Lubomir
> >
> > --
> > Lubom?r Ondra?ka
> > Department of Philosophy & Religious Studies
> > Faculty of Arts, Charles University
> > Nam. J. Palacha 2, Praha 1, 116 38
> > CZECH REPUBLIC
> > e-mail: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> > committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> > unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> > committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> > unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
> 
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> 
> 
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> 
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
> 
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
> 
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
> 
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )





From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch  Mon Jun 18 18:21:00 2018
From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 18:21:00 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <20180618180417.615cf8c8feaf9fcb67f9f4fa@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <20D31238-EEB0-424A-B1FD-036512B5D7A6@unil.ch>

Dear Lubomir,

The contradiction you have come across is not the only one in classical S??khya. You may wish to have a look at the following article:
"The contradiction of S??khya: on the number and the size of the different tattvas." ?tudes Asiatiques / Asiatische Studien 53(3), 1999 (Proceedings of the Conference on S??khya, Lausanne 6-8 November 1998), pp. 679-691.
http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_B50AF4380618.pdf

Good luck with it.

Johannes


On 18 Jun 2018, at 18:04, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Dan,

thanks for this reference. As you say, this reflects a pre-classical or proto-S??khya teaching; in classical S??khya all puru?as are the same, there are no different types or kinds of puru?as.

Jayama?gal? is probably the latest among the pre-Kaumud? commentaries and stays a bit apart from other commentaries. Sure, it might reflect some older teaching that survived outside the S??khya mainstream. But the question whether each puru?a is all-pervasive all the time or only when liberated seems to me rather crucial. All commentaries apparently take it for granted that puru?as are all-pervasive all the time, only Jayama?gal? for some reason distinguishes between liberated and non-liberated puru?a. This puzzles me.

I simply do not understand how could puru?a (being an absolutely passive, reflective consciousness devoid of any activity) have any capacity for changing itself?

Best,
Lubomir


On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:54:32 -040;
Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com<mailto:prajnapti at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Lubom?r,

If I understand correctly what you are asking, then one place to look would be the Bhagavad G?t?, XV.16-19 (though the G?t? reflects a pre-classical form of S??khya, in which, e.g., puru?a is still causal) which mentions three types of puru?a: K?ara puru?a, Ak?ara puru?a, and Puru?ottama (only the last is equivalent to Param?tman).

best wishes,
Dan

On Jun 17, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/10e55fb5/attachment.htm>

From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Mon Jun 18 18:56:02 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 20:56:02 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <20D31238-EEB0-424A-B1FD-036512B5D7A6@unil.ch>
Message-ID: <20180618205602.cf188a9ea0b8a546cd3f1314@ff.cuni.cz>

Dear Johannes,

thanks for this, of course I know all the papers from this conference, including this yours. It deals with the fundamental problem whether we should understand the teaching of classical S??khya more as a cosmogony or individual anthropogony. Preferably both, but then serious inconsistencies would arise.

I understand that in the light of this crucial question my problem with the all-pervasive puru?a is a minor one, but not being a S??khya specialist, I might overlook something important, so that is why I put my question to this forum.

All the best,
Lubomir


On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 18:21:00 +0000
Johannes Bronkhorst <johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch> wrote:

> Dear Lubomir,
> 
> The contradiction you have come across is not the only one in classical S??khya. You may wish to have a look at the following article:
> "The contradiction of S??khya: on the number and the size of the different tattvas." ?tudes Asiatiques / Asiatische Studien 53(3), 1999 (Proceedings of the Conference on S??khya, Lausanne 6-8 November 1998), pp. 679-691.
> http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_B50AF4380618.pdf
> 
> Good luck with it.
> 
> Johannes
> 
> 
> On 18 Jun 2018, at 18:04, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> 
> Dear Dan,
> 
> thanks for this reference. As you say, this reflects a pre-classical or proto-S??khya teaching; in classical S??khya all puru?as are the same, there are no different types or kinds of puru?as.
> 
> Jayama?gal? is probably the latest among the pre-Kaumud? commentaries and stays a bit apart from other commentaries. Sure, it might reflect some older teaching that survived outside the S??khya mainstream. But the question whether each puru?a is all-pervasive all the time or only when liberated seems to me rather crucial. All commentaries apparently take it for granted that puru?as are all-pervasive all the time, only Jayama?gal? for some reason distinguishes between liberated and non-liberated puru?a. This puzzles me.
> 
> I simply do not understand how could puru?a (being an absolutely passive, reflective consciousness devoid of any activity) have any capacity for changing itself?
> 
> Best,
> Lubomir
> 
> 
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:54:32 -040;
> Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com<mailto:prajnapti at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Dear Lubom?r,
> 
> If I understand correctly what you are asking, then one place to look would be the Bhagavad G?t?, XV.16-19 (though the G?t? reflects a pre-classical form of S??khya, in which, e.g., puru?a is still causal) which mentions three types of puru?a: K?ara puru?a, Ak?ara puru?a, and Puru?ottama (only the last is equivalent to Param?tman).
> 
> best wishes,
> Dan
> 
> On Jun 17, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> 
> This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Mon Jun 18 19:14:11 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 14:14:11 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
Message-ID: <88BF01B7-1639-4994-9BA8-FC8E57E8E658@aol.com>

Dear Scholars,

While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan




From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Mon Jun 18 19:28:52 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 19:28:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <88BF01B7-1639-4994-9BA8-FC8E57E8E658@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB15989E6FB6B2BF535A5D57DCA1710@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Palaniappan,


The recognition of true historical background of the Prabodhacandrodaya and the references to this contained within the play itself offer a case in point. I have discussed this in my introduction to my translation of the work, which is available here:

https://www.academia.edu/27671250/Introduction_to_The_Rise_of_Wisdom_Moon_Prabodhacandrodaya_


No doubt others will be able to bring up other examples.


best,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 2:14:11 PM
To: Indology List
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology

Dear Scholars,

While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/56357ea5/attachment.htm>

From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Jun 18 20:04:04 2018
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 20:04:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <88BF01B7-1639-4994-9BA8-FC8E57E8E658@aol.com>
Message-ID: <11B50AE3-DA47-4BBD-B28E-458A85D2F417@austin.utexas.edu>

Much of Gregory Schopen?s work on early Buddhism is exemplary in this regard.



> On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Scholars,
> 
> While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)





From harzer at utexas.edu  Mon Jun 18 20:49:35 2018
From: harzer at utexas.edu (Edeltraud Harzer)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 18 15:49:35 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <20180618180417.615cf8c8feaf9fcb67f9f4fa@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <ACA699F2-58E3-49E8-8093-38090E928264@utexas.edu>

Hello Lubom?re,

Even though your initial inquiry is about S??khya ontological questions, we can draw from some of the epistemological material of the YD, which shows that puru?a has no connection with vyakta, such as instruments/faculties engaged in the operation of acquiring knowledge. See YD on SK 36 (Wezler/Motegi edition), p. 223, l.1ff. 

tay? c?dhyavas?yar?p?pannay? cetan??aktir anug?hyate. na kara??ntarasya puru?e?a sambandho ?sti?

The intellect acquired the form of non-doubting awareness (adhyavas?ya) having accepted the conscious power/power of consciousness. There is no connection/bond of an internal instrument with the unintentional consciousness (puru?a)? 

 Of course, there is more to be said.

A little note: I would like to suggest that sometime we need to play a little with the way how we choose translating: vipary?sa, vipar?ta, etc., which may be understood as ?contrast? and not necessarily ?opposite.?    

Edeltraud Harzer. 

PS Jayama?gal? is suspected sometime that there might be other influences.


> On Jun 18, 2018, at 11:04 AM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Dan,
> 
> thanks for this reference. As you say, this reflects a pre-classical or proto-S??khya teaching; in classical S??khya all puru?as are the same, there are no different types or kinds of puru?as. 
> 
> Jayama?gal? is probably the latest among the pre-Kaumud? commentaries and stays a bit apart from other commentaries. Sure, it might reflect some older teaching that survived outside the S??khya mainstream. But the question whether each puru?a is all-pervasive all the time or only when liberated seems to me rather crucial. All commentaries apparently take it for granted that puru?as are all-pervasive all the time, only Jayama?gal? for some reason distinguishes between liberated and non-liberated puru?a. This puzzles me. 
> 
> I simply do not understand how could puru?a (being an absolutely passive, reflective consciousness devoid of any activity) have any capacity for changing itself?
> 
> Best,
> Lubomir
> 
> 
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:54:32 -040;
> Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Dear Lubom?r,
>> 
>> If I understand correctly what you are asking, then one place to look would be the Bhagavad G?t?, XV.16-19 (though the G?t? reflects a pre-classical form of S??khya, in which, e.g., puru?a is still causal) which mentions three types of puru?a: K?ara puru?a, Ak?ara puru?a, and Puru?ottama (only the last is equivalent to Param?tman).
>> 
>> best wishes,
>> Dan
>> 
>>> On Jun 17, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180618/032b23c7/attachment.htm>

From royce.wiles at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 23:23:58 2018
From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 09:23:58 +1000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9Avet=C4=81mbara_Jain_texts_available_in_digital_format_(Unicode_Devan=C4=81gar=C4=AB)?=
Message-ID: <BF9AA983-F676-43D7-ABC6-EDFDCA29296D@gmail.com>

?vet?mbara Jain texts available in digital format (Unicode Devan?gar?)
I wish to draw attention to a set of 45 ?vet?mbara Jain canonical texts in the original Prakrit uploaded as Word documents in (mostly?) Unicode compliant Devan?gari that has been available for sometime from the Jain eLibrary (run by Jain Education International). 

The eLibrary new website can be found with a search under jainlibrary.org <http://jainlibrary.org/> or similar terms (registration and approval is necessary there for access or to download the files for personal use). Searching on that site is a bit complex, the quickest way to locate these particular 45  files (amongst the hundreds of scanned and uploaded books) is to search using the file identification numbers 003701-003789 (only odd numbers though from that range).

As indicated in the email below (shared with permission), in 1996 Muni D?paratnas?gara-j? released his editions of the 45 texts of the ?vet?mbara Jain canon in booklet form based mainly on the ?gama ma?j??? set (1940s) (also on the website and available on-line) (003901 to 003953), which in turn was based on ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda?s earlier editions. 

By 2012 Muni D?paratnas?gara-j? had produced and released those 45 versions as digital files in Unicode Devan?gari: PDF and Word files can now be downloaded file by file, which means a searchable set of canonical texts is available for the first time (admittedly without apparatus but it is a wonderful starting point and put together by a single individual working consistently over many years).

Recently Pravin Shah, sent me the email below, based directly on Muni-j??s responses to my question about the basis for his textual work and this background is important for scholars making use of these documents (which certainly need to be recognized as a major step forward for studies of Jain texts and Prakrits).

Royce WILES


PS Any questions about accessing the texts can perhaps best be emailed to Pravin-bhai though he is travelling at the moment.

> On 5 Jun 2018, at 22:05, Pravin K Shah <jainaedu at gmail.com <mailto:jainaedu at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Dear Royce,
> 
> I have talked to Pujya Shri Deepratna-sagarji to list all references used in compilation of these 45 Agams.  The following is the list of all references.
> 
> The searchable docx files were prepared from the 45 Agam Mool Sutra books (Agam Suttani) that were published by him (Shri Deepratnasagar Maharaj Saheb) in 1996 (elibrary sr. numbers -  009727 to 009775). In these books reference Gatha number is indicated at the end of each Gatha.
> 
> Main References
> 
> The main source of the publication of these 45 Agam Mool Sutra books were "Agam Manjusha" compiled by Pujya Shri Anand-Sagar-Suri (popularly known as Sagaranand-suri) published about 70 to 75 years ago (eLibrary Sr. Number - 003901 to 003953). Also several other references were also used, and they are listed below.
> 
> Other References
> 
> *Vrutties of 45 aagam literature (except 6 Chhed Sutras and Chandra Pragnapti 38 aagams).  Edited By poojy Shri Sagaranandsooriji
> Some Churnis of Agam Literature
> Paynnas & some other Aagams compiled by Muni Shri Punyavijayji
> Some Manuscript of non printed Aagam from L D Indology, Ahmadabad
> 32 Agams of Sthanakvasi sect compiled by Acharya Ghasilalji (eLib# 006301 to 006399)
> 32 Agams of Terapanthi sect compiled by Acharya Tulasi (eLib# 003551 to 003627)
> Suttagam (eLib# 003551 to 003627)
> Note *
> 
> ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ???????? ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ??. 
> 
> ?? ????????? ? ??? ?????? ??? ??????????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??. ?????????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? (?) ?????? ?????, (?) ?????? ?????? ???, (?) ?????? ??????? ???? ? ???? ???????? ???????? ? ???? ??.
> ??? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??.
> ?????????? ? ??. ??????????? ?. ???????.
> ?????-??. ?????????? ???????
> ?????-??. ???? ????? ???????
> ????????-??. ????????? ??????? ??. 
> ?????????? ?????? ???. ??????????? ?? ?????? ? ??? ??. ???? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???.
> Suggested Other Agam References
> 
> In addition to above 45 docx (searchable) files, Maharaj Saheb has also published two more Agam related searchable files as follows:
> 
> Agam Vishay Anukram in Gujarati (eLibrary serial Num - 009143).  This is a very useful file to search the Agam references of any subject / Topic.
> Agam Sankshipta Parichay in Gujarati (eLibrary serial Num - 035100)
> Also, there are good non-searchable Agam references compiled by Shri Deepratnasagarji
> 
> Agam Suttani Satikam Part 1 to 30 (30 books ? eLibrary Sr 003305 to 003334) 
> Agam Shabda Kosh Part 1 to 4 (4 Books ? eLibrary Sr. 016024 to 016027)
> I work with Maharaj Saheb for last 8 years to scan all his Agam related work and upload them in Jain eLibrary website. 
> 
> He does not have any team to help him.  All his printed publications and web publications work was compiled by him alone.  He is a very hard-working Maharaj Saheb. 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Pravin Shah


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/e2a42507/attachment.htm>

From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au  Tue Jun 19 00:35:51 2018
From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 00:35:51 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
Message-ID: <ME1PR01MB20346A26322B7E619F89C0A5AE700@ME1PR01MB2034.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Friends


A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where possible.


She is asking for help with the following terms:


present stem


thematic and athematic verb classes


If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the information to her.


With thanks in advance


Yours


McComas




------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


[1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]

Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/cb8255e5/attachment.htm>

From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 02:03:56 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 07:33:56 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <11B50AE3-DA47-4BBD-B28E-458A85D2F417@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZ_V4yEt9=P16ZXUNAgo6XwjyVSjK_KotYX-COhJ37qYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Tiru Palaniappan avarghal,

I think the situation you mention is just the opposite of reality. Most of
the modern , particularly Indological understanding of literary texts has
been well informed by history which is mostly based on epigraphy. In fact,
we have to identify epigraphists who have been Indologists who used
literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data since their number is
not big.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 1:34 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Much of Gregory Schopen?s work on early Buddhism is exemplary in this
> regard.
>
>
>
> > On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Scholars,
> >
> > While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts to
> inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to
> scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data
> to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Regards,
> > Palaniappan
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/1c19ee35/attachment.htm>

From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Jun 19 04:15:20 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 04:15:20 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <ME1PR01MB20346A26322B7E619F89C0A5AE700@ME1PR01MB2034.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB15981195BD16F84DA049E20DA1700@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear McComas,

If I recall correctly, thematic and athematic were first employed by European Sanskritists on the basis of a perceived analogy with Greek. There is no corresponding traditional distinction.

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago

________________________________________
From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 7:35 PM
To: indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms

Dear Friends


A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where possible.


She is asking for help with the following terms:


present stem


thematic and athematic verb classes


If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the information to her.


With thanks in advance


Yours


McComas




------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/

Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


[1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]

Ask me about my new project:

'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'





From Palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Jun 19 05:19:00 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 00:19:00 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eZ_V4yEt9=P16ZXUNAgo6XwjyVSjK_KotYX-COhJ37qYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB2A3AA5-C0ED-4288-82FF-CB77E3F5A996@aol.com>

Dear Dr. Paturi,

I am not talking about historically locating literary texts. I have attached some pages from EI 7. They deal with three inscriptions described by three scholars. Each of them uses different literary textual references to explain parts of the inscriptions. But the third inscription also seems to provide an alternate etymology for the name R???rak??a. If the name R???rak??a occurs in a literary text, then Fleet?s discussion would contribute to a different understanding of an item in a literary context based on epigraphic data.

 
I hope this clarifies what I am looking for.

Regards,
Palaniappan

> On Jun 18, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Tiru Palaniappan avarghal,
> 
> I think the situation you mention is just the opposite of reality. Most of the modern , particularly Indological understanding of literary texts has been well informed by history which is mostly based on epigraphy. In fact, we have to identify epigraphists who have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data since their number is not big. 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 1:34 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Much of Gregory Schopen?s work on early Buddhism is exemplary in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Scholars,
> > 
> > While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Palaniappan
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> 
> 
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> 
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
> 
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>  
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>  
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>  
>  
>  





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/8762e63f/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: EpigraphiaIndicavol7pages.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 1786883 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/8762e63f/attachment.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/8762e63f/attachment-0001.htm>

From hermantull at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 05:41:53 2018
From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 08:41:53 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB15981195BD16F84DA049E20DA1700@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFdBLNib+GU03aYGF5R8nqWFOi17tGPHB-8OUB_yJLWWG5=gnw@mail.gmail.com>

Following up on Matthew Kapstein's comment, Whitney states of the
arrangement of the classes of roots,

"These are the "classes" or "conjugation-classes", as laid down by the
native Hindu grammarians. They are arranged by the latter in a certain
wholly artificial and unsystematic order (the ground of which has never
been discovered); and they are wont to be designated in European works
according to this order, or else, after Hindu example, by the root standing
at the head of each class in the Hindu lists. A different arrangement and
nomenclature will be followed here, namely as below ? the classes being
divided (as is usual in European grammars) into two more general classes or
conjugations, distinguished from one another by wider differences than
those which separate the special classes."

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 7:16 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear McComas,
>
> If I recall correctly, thematic and athematic were first employed by
> European Sanskritists on the basis of a perceived analogy with Greek. There
> is no corresponding traditional distinction.
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
>
> ________________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of McComas
> Taylor via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info]
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 7:35 PM
> To: indology
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
>
> Dear Friends
>
>
> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit into
> Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where possible.
>
>
> She is asking for help with the following terms:
>
>
> present stem
>
>
> thematic and athematic verb classes
>
>
> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the information to
> her.
>
>
> With thanks in advance
>
>
> Yours
>
>
> McComas
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
> [1498624349007_vishnu_small.png]
>
> Ask me about my new project:
>
> 'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/0625dfa9/attachment.htm>

From pkoskikallio at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 06:54:36 2018
From: pkoskikallio at gmail.com (pkoskikallio)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 09:54:36 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Edinburgh Vedic papers published
Message-ID: <CA+JSsdhFGxKHr_GdtYbSTe_j0Xrwe+bg1yvTxVHG54k87MEERg@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear All,

The following volume is now published:

Creating the Veda, Living the Veda. Selected Papers from the 13th World
Sanskrit Conference. Eds. Joel P. Brereton and Theodore N. Proferes
Annales Academiae Scientiarum Fennicae. Humaniora 379
Helsinki 2018, 185 pp.

This is the last publication of the Edinburgh WSC papers that will come
out. As I was involved in the practical part of the publication, it was
eventually published in the Finnish series which I co-edit. More
information (+ orders) through the link: https://www.tiedekirja.f
i/english/creating-the-veda-living-the-veda.html. Contents in the
attachment.


Petteri Koskikallio
Associate Editor, Humaniora Series


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/42894c83/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Conts.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 793201 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/42894c83/attachment.pdf>

From harzer at utexas.edu  Tue Jun 19 16:08:29 2018
From: harzer at utexas.edu (Edeltraud Harzer)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 11:08:29 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <ME1PR01MB20346A26322B7E619F89C0A5AE700@ME1PR01MB2034.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5795586B-CD07-474C-8396-FD66A9EED4F3@utexas.edu>

Hello McComas,
A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook in Robert Goldman?s Devav???prave?ik? starting on p. 403. They are in Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is not very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy always to find the term as in the example of the present tense: vartam?ne la? directs you to la? on the preceding page. Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by going through the four ad half pages of the glossary. 

Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.

Edeltraud harzer

University of Texas at Austin
Austin, USA


> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Friends
> 
> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where possible.
> 
> She is asking for help with the following terms:
> 
> present stem
> 
> thematic and athematic verb classes
> 
> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the information to her.
> 
> With thanks in advance
> 
> Yours
> 
> McComas
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ <https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/>
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
> 
> 
> Ask me about my new project:
> 'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/96c69a1e/attachment.htm>

From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:08:58 2018
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 19:08:58 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <5795586B-CD07-474C-8396-FD66A9EED4F3@utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAANHO17p0j3OOYKfWMd150t8-zkXLUPPYSU0XsckRe-FeuntCQ@mail.gmail.com>

There are real vaiy?kara?as on the list, but for what it is worth,
"thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars simply
mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured in
traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or "adanta-" if
you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a slightly more narrow
version of the verbal stem to which s?rvadh?tuka affixes are added (more
narrow because there are s?rvadh?tuka suffixes that wouldn't be considered
part of the present system, like kha?). I have to say, though, that I would
also appreciate some information about whether this identification holds.
Max M?ller translated ?rdhadh?tuka and s?rvadh?tuka as "general or
unmodified" tenses and "special or modified" tenses respectively.

2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Hello McComas,
> A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook in
> Robert Goldman?s *Devav???prave?ik?* starting on p. 403. They are in
> Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times and other times they
> are just explained. If your colleague is not very familiar with Sanskrit
> grammatical terms, it may not be easy always to find the term as in the
> example of the present tense: *vartam?ne* *la?* directs you to *la?* on
> the preceding page. Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily
> found by going through the four ad half pages of the glossary.
>
> Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.
>
> Edeltraud harzer
>
> University of Texas at Austin
> Austin, USA
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends
>
> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit into
> Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where possible.
>
> She is asking for help with the following terms:
>
> present stem
>
> thematic and athematic verb classes
>
> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the information to
> her.
>
> With thanks in advance
>
> Yours
>
> McComas
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>
>
> Ask me about my new project:
> *'Translating the **Vi??u Pur??a'*
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/53ac87d0/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 19 17:20:44 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 10:20:44 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdiCFpj+jKsV-aYYHpM1-qeUBpX+u1MQRr8GO1uzVVu1A@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses:

????????? ?????????? ??????? ? ??????? ?

????????????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ???????

O Lord, [in the Bhagavadg?t?] you spoke about detachment and attachment.  O
Kr???a, I am attached to you and to no one else.


??? ???????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??: ?

????????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ??????: ???????

O Kr???a, my mind is constantly attached to your figure.  There are many
desirables around me, but I have no delight in them.


??? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ?

??? ??? ???????? ????????? ??????????? ???????

My mind attached to you is transfixed by your play.  How will it turn away
from that strong bond of yours?


?????????: ??????? ???????? ????? ?????: ?

????????? ??????? ??????????? ??? ???? ???????

The sweet sound of your flute comes to my ears.  I look around everywhere.  O
M?dhava, where are you hidden?


???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?

???????? ????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

O Kr???a, you are like wind in the leaves of the trees.  The sound of your
flute in the bower of vines.  Where are you Kr???a?


????: ???? ?????? ??????????? ?????????? ?

??? ???????, ????????, ???? ???? ??????? ???????

Sleepless at night lying on my bed I am thinking only of you, O Kr???a.  Where
are you?  Show yourself to me.


????? ?? ??????????? ?? ?? ?????????: ?

??? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ????? ?? ???????

You are hidden in my heart, but be visible to my eyes.  How come you were
seen by Arjuna.  I am jealous.


?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?

??????????? ? ????? ???? ????? ? ?????? ???????

O Kr???a, the Gokula is enraptured by your sweet flute, and you are
enraptured with that flute, so that you are never without it.


????????? ????? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ?

???? ????? ?????????? ?? ???????????: ???????

Listening the sweet sound of your flute, the birds in the forest,
completely calmed in their minds, forget their own tweeting.


?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ????????? ?

???????? ???? ?????? ??????????????? ???????

O Kr???a, the water of Yamun? enraptured with your flute does not want to
move ahead of Gokula.


???????????? ????? ???????? ??????????: ?

???????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ???????

The ladies of Braj, listening to the sweet sound of your flute leave behind
churning the yogurt and rush to the bank of Yamun?.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/90f30677/attachment.htm>

From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 18:05:31 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 23:35:31 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <AB2A3AA5-C0ED-4288-82FF-CB77E3F5A996@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eaEWGdPRW6f-CjCufKApU9db4+HXjevz-tGG50_cdnNSQ@mail.gmail.com>

>  I am not talking about historically locating literary texts.

Using historical research including epigraphy for the study of literary
works did not stop at historically locating literary texts. It lead to an
entire branch of literary criticism called historical criticism.

Particularly in the case of literatures of Indian languages, where the
prefatory/introductory parts provide a very big amount of historical data
such as the patron king, his dynasty etc., the data was correlated with the
epigraphic information where the king and his dynasty find mention and that
in turn lead to the study of the literary work in its historical context.
Marxist literary criticism has also been broadly historical criticism only.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <
Palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

> Dear Dr. Paturi,
>
> I am not talking about historically locating literary texts. I have
> attached some pages from EI 7. They deal with three inscriptions described
> by three scholars. Each of them uses different literary textual references
> to explain parts of the inscriptions. But the third inscription also seems
> to provide an alternate etymology for the name R???rak??a. If the name
> R???rak??a occurs in a literary text, then Fleet?s discussion would
> contribute to a different understanding of an item in a literary context
> based on epigraphic data.
>
>
>
> I hope this clarifies what I am looking for.
>
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
>
> On Jun 18, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Tiru Palaniappan avarghal,
>
> I think the situation you mention is just the opposite of reality. Most of
> the modern , particularly Indological understanding of literary texts has
> been well informed by history which is mostly based on epigraphy. In fact,
> we have to identify epigraphists who have been Indologists who used
> literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data since their number is
> not big.
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 1:34 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Much of Gregory Schopen?s work on early Buddhism is exemplary in this
>> regard.
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Scholars,
>> >
>> > While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts
>> to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to
>> scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data
>> to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Palaniappan
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/3311c82d/attachment.htm>

From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 18:12:49 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 23:42:49 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <ACA699F2-58E3-49E8-8093-38090E928264@utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebn7a_ua8nkgobiyV3K6C2XPAhDuCU=UuC9C-ZJCPaXkw@mail.gmail.com>

What reality (real life) examples do you have in mind for purusha or
purushas ?

What  reality (real life) examples do you have in mind for prakriti?

--------------------------

Paradoxes are usual in spiritual /advanced philosophical statements.

Paradox is a figure of speech, where contradiction is apparent and not
real.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 2:19 AM, Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Hello Lubom?re,
>
> Even though your initial inquiry is about S??khya ontological questions,
> we can draw from some of the epistemological material of the YD, which
> shows that puru?a has no connection with vyakta, such as
> instruments/faculties engaged in the operation of acquiring knowledge. See
> YD on SK 36 (Wezler/Motegi edition), p. 223, l.1ff.
>
> tay? c?dhyavas?yar?p?pannay? cetan??aktir anug?hyate. na kara??ntarasya
> puru?e?a sambandho ?sti?
>
> The intellect acquired the form of non-doubting awareness (adhyavas?ya)
> having accepted the conscious power/power of consciousness. There is no
> connection/bond of an internal instrument with the unintentional
> consciousness (puru?a)?
>
>  Of course, there is more to be said.
>
> A little note: I would like to suggest that sometime we need to play a
> little with the way how we choose translating: vipary?sa, vipar?ta, etc.,
> which may be understood as ?contrast? and not necessarily ?opposite.?
>
> Edeltraud Harzer.
>
> PS Jayama?gal? is suspected sometime that there might be other influences.
>
> On Jun 18, 2018, at 11:04 AM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> thanks for this reference. As you say, this reflects a pre-classical or
> proto-S??khya teaching; in classical S??khya all puru?as are the same,
> there are no different types or kinds of puru?as.
>
> Jayama?gal? is probably the latest among the pre-Kaumud? commentaries and
> stays a bit apart from other commentaries. Sure, it might reflect some
> older teaching that survived outside the S??khya mainstream. But the
> question whether each puru?a is all-pervasive all the time or only when
> liberated seems to me rather crucial. All commentaries apparently take it
> for granted that puru?as are all-pervasive all the time, only Jayama?gal?
> for some reason distinguishes between liberated and non-liberated puru?a.
> This puzzles me.
>
> I simply do not understand how could puru?a (being an absolutely passive,
> reflective consciousness devoid of any activity) have any capacity for
> changing itself?
>
> Best,
> Lubomir
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:54:32 -040;
> Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Lubom?r,
>
> If I understand correctly what you are asking, then one place to look
> would be the Bhagavad G?t?, XV.16-19 (though the G?t? reflects a
> pre-classical form of S??khya, in which, e.g., puru?a is still causal)
> which mentions three types of puru?a: K?ara puru?a, Ak?ara puru?a, and
> Puru?ottama (only the last is equivalent to Param?tman).
>
> best wishes,
> Dan
>
> On Jun 17, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive
> only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense
> similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could
> puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And
> where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help
> me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this
> seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on
> puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get
> the right answers.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/1bce6b53/attachment.htm>

From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Tue Jun 19 18:27:40 2018
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 18 13:27:40 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO17p0j3OOYKfWMd150t8-zkXLUPPYSU0XsckRe-FeuntCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAETY2G3LtG-_SaXbyLeKydPeSPzOfBCAU4DdMrynKkzV1Xqpwg@mail.gmail.com>

I generally find it best, especially at the early stages of Sanskrit
learning/teaching, to avoid equating grammatical terms from different
systems. Most of the Sanskrit terms are fairly precise, whereas there is
often some variation in the definitions for Latinate terminology and the
two don't often match up exactly. Plus, to be accurate one often ends up
going on long tangents.

The technical terms s?rvadh?tuka and ?rdhudh?tuka and the results of being
so termed are very interesting as well as complex. I'm not sure how far we
can associated the stem to which s?rvadh?tuka suffixes are added with what
is commonly termed the present stem. Since all of the personal endings are
termed s?rvadh?tuka (ti??it s?rvadh?tukam), s?rvadh?tuka suffixes occur
with all of the tense stems.   The vikara?as, many of which are associated
with the class signs used to build the present stem, are not universally
termed s?rvadh?tuka either; u of the tan?di ga?a (3.1.79) is ?rdhadh?tuka
(it's not marked with ?) and hence is not ?it by P. 1.2.4 s?rvadh?tukam
apit. Consequently there is gu?a-strengthening in karoti from ? k? (?Uk??)
when u follows but not in sunoti from ? su (?u?) when ?nu follows (?nu,
being treated a marked with ? by P. 1.2.4 and hence blocking
gu?a-strengthening according to P. 1.1.5 k?iti ca). In any case, this can
get a bit complicated quickly, so it might be best to treat each set of
terms separately and not look for one to one correspondences.

Could a reference be given to Max M?ller's translation? It doesn't
immediately come to mind.

All the Best,
Victor


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180619/a84ca827/attachment.htm>

From dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 11:39:59 2018
From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk (dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 18 11:39:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO17p0j3OOYKfWMd150t8-zkXLUPPYSU0XsckRe-FeuntCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5B2A2EFF.19550.F36F5A@dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk>

Thanks to Andrew for this clarification.

"Present stem" is one of those oddities of terminology that have been carried over from Latin 
and Greek; in this case perhaps from Latin, where the "present stem" contrasts with the 
"perfect stem". In our little book for people approaching Sanskrit from the point of view of 
linguistics, Sanskrit (Languages of the World: Materials series, 18, Muenchen: Lincom 
Europa 1995), the late Siew-Yue Killingley and I called it the "active stem", because all the 
forms using it (whether parasmaipada or Atmanepada) are unambiguously active, so it 
contrasts with the passive stem, which makes Atmanepada forms which are unambiguously 
passive. In the "aorist" (which we call immediate past), "perfect" (remote past) and "future" 
(predictive) Atmanepada forms can be active or passive.

Dermot (Killingley)

On 19 Jun 2018 at 19:08, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY wrote:

There are real vaiyakaraas on the list, but for what it is worth, "thematic" and "athematic" in 
the usage of most European grammars simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," 
which is captured in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or "adanta-" if 
you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a slightly more narrow version of the verbal 
stem to which sarvadhatuka affixes are added (more narrow because there are sarvadhatuka 
suffixes that wouldn't be considered part of the present system, like kha?s). I have to say, 
though, that I would also appreciate some information about whether this identification holds. 
Max M?ller translated ardhadhatuka and sarvadhatuka as "general or unmodified" tenses 
and "special or modified" tenses respectively.

2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY < 
indology at list.indology.info>:
    Hello McComas, 
    A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook in Robert 
    Goldman's Devavaiprave?sika starting on p. 403. They are in Sanskrit with a straight 
    English translation at times and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is 
    not very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy always to find the 
    term as in the example of the present tense: vartamane la directs you to la on the 
    preceding page. Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by going 
    through the four ad half pages of the glossary. 

    Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.

    Edeltraud harzer

    University of Texas at Austin
    Austin, USA


    On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY 
    <indology at list.indology.info > wrote:

    Dear Friends

    A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit 
    into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms 
    where possible.

    She is asking for help with the following terms:

    present stem

    thematic and athematic verb classes

    If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the 
    information to her.

    With thanks in advance

    Yours

    McComas



------------------------------ ------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google. com/site/mccomasanu/
Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


Ask me about my new project:
'Translating the Viu Puraa'
    ______________________________ 
    _________________
    INDOLOGY mailing list
    INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
    indology-owner at list.indology. info (messages to the list's 
    managing committee)
    http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your 
    list options or unsubscribe)

    
    _______________________________________________
    INDOLOGY mailing list
    INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
    indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
    http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



-- 
Dermot Killingley
9, Rectory Drive,
Gosforth,
Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
Phone (0191) 285 8053



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180620/236bfe49/attachment.htm>

From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Wed Jun 20 10:53:47 2018
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 18 10:53:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO17p0j3OOYKfWMd150t8-zkXLUPPYSU0XsckRe-FeuntCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR11MB1598436B7D833279E33EE2A9A1770@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Andrew,


You write that:

"thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit....


Here is what Abhyankar, A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, p. 13, has to say about adanta:

"ending with the short vowel a ... a term applied to nouns of that kind, and roots of the tenth conjugation..."


This is surely not what the 19th c. grammarians had in mind in dividing the Skt. verb system according to the categories of thematic and athematic (none of them would have spoken of deva- as "a thematic noun"!)


It seems a good example of Victor Davella's point about mixing up the terminology of differing systems.


best,

Matthew


Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:08:58 PM
To: indology
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms

There are real vaiy?kara?as on the list, but for what it is worth, "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a slightly more narrow version of the verbal stem to which s?rvadh?tuka affixes are added (more narrow because there are s?rvadh?tuka suffixes that wouldn't be considered part of the present system, like kha?). I have to say, though, that I would also appreciate some information about whether this identification holds. Max M?ller translated ?rdhadh?tuka and s?rvadh?tuka as "general or unmodified" tenses and "special or modified" tenses respectively.

2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
Hello McComas,
A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook in Robert Goldman?s Devav???prave?ik? starting on p. 403. They are in Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is not very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy always to find the term as in the example of the present tense: vartam?ne la? directs you to la? on the preceding page. Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by going through the four ad half pages of the glossary.

Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.

Edeltraud harzer

University of Texas at Austin
Austin, USA


On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear Friends

A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where possible.

She is asking for help with the following terms:

present stem

thematic and athematic verb classes

If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the information to her.

With thanks in advance

Yours

McComas



------------------------------------------------------------------------
McComas Taylor, SFHEA
Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
College of Asia and the Pacific
The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200


Ask me about my new project:
'Translating the Vi??u Pur??a'

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180620/9e5496f2/attachment.htm>

From chlodwig.h.werba at univie.ac.at  Wed Jun 20 12:07:40 2018
From: chlodwig.h.werba at univie.ac.at (Chlodwig H Werba)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 18 14:07:40 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR11MB1598436B7D833279E33EE2A9A1770@MWHPR11MB1598.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <9c3fb3a1a5d8f7bff765a68e236993a0@univie.ac.at>

Dear Colleagues,
In the given context, Andrew is -- pace Matthew -- absolutely right: 
Every historical linguist not only in the 19th cent., but also nowadays 
(as myself in the field of Indo-Iranian studies) would classify the 
inherited skt. dev?- as a thematic noun and, e.g., its derivational 
basis in Proto-Indo-European, being continued in Vedic Skt. by 
dy?v-/div-? 'heaven', as an athematic one.
With best regards
Chlodwig H. Werba


Am 20.06.2018 12:53, schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Andrew,
> 
> You write that:
> 
> "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
> simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
> in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
> "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit....
> 
> Here is what Abhyankar, A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, p. 13, has
> to say about adanta:
> 
> "ending with the short vowel a ... a term applied to nouns of that
> kind, and roots of the tenth conjugation..."
> 
> This is surely not what the 19th c. grammarians had in mind in
> dividing the Skt. verb system according to the categories of thematic
> and athematic (none of them would have spoken of deva- as "a thematic
> noun"!)
> 
> It seems a good example of Victor Davella's point about mixing up the
> terminology of differing systems.
> 
> best,
> 
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes,
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> FROM: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> SENT: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:08:58 PM
> TO: indology
> SUBJECT: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
> 
> There are real vaiy?kara?as on the list, but for what it is worth,
> "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
> simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
> in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
> "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a
> slightly more narrow version of the verbal stem to which
> s?rvadh?tuka affixes are added (more narrow because there are
> s?rvadh?tuka suffixes that wouldn't be considered part of the
> present system, like kha?). I have to say, though, that I would also
> appreciate some information about whether this identification holds.
> Max M?ller translated ?rdhadh?tuka and s?rvadh?tuka as "general
> or unmodified" tenses and "special or modified" tenses respectively.
> 
> 2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY
> <indology at list.indology.info>:
> 
>> Hello McComas,
>> A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook
>> in Robert Goldman?s _Devav???prave?ik?_ starting on p. 403.
>> They are in Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times
>> and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is not
>> very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy
>> always to find the term as in the example of the present tense:
>> _vartam?ne_ _la?_ directs you to _la?_ on the preceding page.
>> Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by
>> going through the four ad half pages of the glossary.
>> 
>> Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.
>> 
>> Edeltraud harzer
>> 
>> University of Texas at Austin
>> Austin, USA
>> 
>>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY
>>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Friends
>>> 
>>> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit
>>> into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where
>>> possible.
>>> 
>>> She is asking for help with the following terms:
>>> 
>>> present stem
>>> 
>>> thematic and athematic verb classes
>>> 
>>> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the
>>> information to her.
>>> 
>>> With thanks in advance
>>> 
>>> Yours
>>> 
>>> McComas
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ [1]
>>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>> 
>>> Ask me about my new project:
>>> 'TRANSLATING THE VI??U PUR??A'
>>> 
>>> __ _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list
>>> options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
> [2] http://listinfo.indology.info/
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)





From vbd203 at googlemail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:20:28 2018
From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 18 08:20:28 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <9c3fb3a1a5d8f7bff765a68e236993a0@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CAETY2G0+BP8Uwh0stYL4okVJSF7y8Ycw7N-kYwg0_GEmb2TFjA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

It is worth keeping in mind that (an)at/(an)adanta etc. are entirely formal
in P??ini's grammar and have been rightly translated as "that which ends
(or does not end) in shot a." What specifically ends (or does not end) in
short a must be ascertained from the larger context of the s?tra. For
example,  P. 7.1.5 ?tmanepade?v anata? prescribes that at (and not ant) be
substituted for jh in jha, the suffix for the 3rd person plural ?tm. (or
1st person if we wish to be P??inian) given in P. 3.4.78. anata?, "of that
which does not end in short a," modifies a?ga, "stem," (not specified to
either a verbal or a nominal form), which is continued from P. 6.4.1
a?gasya. This is how P??ini formulates a rule that one might give to
students as: in the non-thematic verbal classes, there is no n in the 3rd
person pl. ?tm., as apposed to labhante, padyante, etc. of the thematic
classes.  But P??ini's rule extends beyond the present tense stems and in
fact should not be strictly associated with anything other than "that which
does not end in short a" because it is by this same rule that aorist forms
are distinguished as well: adik?anta vs. ane?ata, etc. If we wish to use
thematic and non-thematic as a sort of  equivalent for P??inian
(an)at/(an)adanta, then it is crucial to include all places in the verbal
paradigm where being (an)adanta comes into play.   On the other hand, just
a few s?tras later, at is used in reference to a nominal form in P. 7.1.9
ato bhisa ais, in which case at (= adanta) again modifies a?ga but one that
is now nominal. The rule prescribes the substitution of ais for bhis, the
latter of which is the basic ending for the instrumental plural (t?t?y?
vibhakti), hence devai? and not devabhi?*. In any case, at/adanta is
neither restricted to nominal or verbal forms nor the present stem.

I find Abhyankar's entry on adanta somewhat misleading, as least as quoted,
and not terribly informative of how (an)at/(an)adanta is used in in the
A???dhy?y?. The business about "roots of the tenth conjugation which are
given with the letter a at their end which is not looked upon as mute
(it)..." is a bit recherch? and refers to a list of roots in the cur?di
ga?a of the P??inian dh?tup??ha. In Liebich's edition it begins on p. 190
with the head adant?? ita ? ga??nt?d ...  The reason, I believe, that he
gives slightly obscure references is that he was looking for specific
instances of adanta in the A???dhy?y? and not at, which, however, is
usually to be understood as adanta. The opening sentence of his entry,
nonetheless, repeats more or less the translation that has already been
said: "ending with the short vowel a".

All systems of grammar are fictional, and in teaching Sanskrit or whatever
language, the terminology and categories that make the most sense in a
specific context should be used. Comparison of preexisting systems, such as
that of P??ini (we should also recall that there are other systems with
different terminology and different definitions for the same P??inian
terms), should only be undertaken once the object of comparison is well
understood and beginning Sanskrit is usually not the place to begin such a
comparison. I do, however, support familiarization with P??inian
terminology but as it is defined by P??ini himself, not in reference to
Latinate terms.

All the Best,
Victor


On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:08 AM Chlodwig H Werba via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
> In the given context, Andrew is -- pace Matthew -- absolutely right:
> Every historical linguist not only in the 19th cent., but also nowadays
> (as myself in the field of Indo-Iranian studies) would classify the
> inherited skt. dev?- as a thematic noun and, e.g., its derivational
> basis in Proto-Indo-European, being continued in Vedic Skt. by
> dy?v-/div-? 'heaven', as an athematic one.
> With best regards
> Chlodwig H. Werba
>
>
> Am 20.06.2018 12:53, schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
> > Dear Andrew,
> >
> > You write that:
> >
> > "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
> > simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
> > in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
> > "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit....
> >
> > Here is what Abhyankar, A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, p. 13, has
> > to say about adanta:
> >
> > "ending with the short vowel a ... a term applied to nouns of that
> > kind, and roots of the tenth conjugation..."
> >
> > This is surely not what the 19th c. grammarians had in mind in
> > dividing the Skt. verb system according to the categories of thematic
> > and athematic (none of them would have spoken of deva- as "a thematic
> > noun"!)
> >
> > It seems a good example of Victor Davella's point about mixing up the
> > terminology of differing systems.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Matthew
> >
> > Matthew Kapstein
> > Directeur d'?tudes,
> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
> >
> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> > The University of Chicago
> >
> > -------------------------
> >
> > FROM: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> > Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> > SENT: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:08:58 PM
> > TO: indology
> > SUBJECT: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
> >
> > There are real vaiy?kara?as on the list, but for what it is worth,
> > "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
> > simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
> > in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
> > "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a
> > slightly more narrow version of the verbal stem to which
> > s?rvadh?tuka affixes are added (more narrow because there are
> > s?rvadh?tuka suffixes that wouldn't be considered part of the
> > present system, like kha?). I have to say, though, that I would also
> > appreciate some information about whether this identification holds.
> > Max M?ller translated ?rdhadh?tuka and s?rvadh?tuka as "general
> > or unmodified" tenses and "special or modified" tenses respectively.
> >
> > 2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info>:
> >
> >> Hello McComas,
> >> A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook
> >> in Robert Goldman?s _Devav???prave?ik?_ starting on p. 403.
> >> They are in Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times
> >> and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is not
> >> very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy
> >> always to find the term as in the example of the present tense:
> >> _vartam?ne_ _la?_ directs you to _la?_ on the preceding page.
> >> Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by
> >> going through the four ad half pages of the glossary.
> >>
> >> Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.
> >>
> >> Edeltraud harzer
> >>
> >> University of Texas at Austin
> >> Austin, USA
> >>
> >>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY
> >>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Friends
> >>>
> >>> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit
> >>> into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where
> >>> possible.
> >>>
> >>> She is asking for help with the following terms:
> >>>
> >>> present stem
> >>>
> >>> thematic and athematic verb classes
> >>>
> >>> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the
> >>> information to her.
> >>>
> >>> With thanks in advance
> >>>
> >>> Yours
> >>>
> >>> McComas
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
> >>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
> >>> College of Asia and the Pacific
> >>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
> >>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ [1]
> >>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
> >>>
> >>> Ask me about my new project:
> >>> 'TRANSLATING THE VI??U PUR??A'
> >>>
> >>> __ _______________________________________________
> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> >>> committee)
> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list
> >>> options or unsubscribe)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> >> committee)
> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> >> options or unsubscribe)
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
> > [2] http://listinfo.indology.info/
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> > committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> > or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180620/240e791b/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Wed Jun 20 13:37:22 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 18 06:37:22 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <CAETY2G0+BP8Uwh0stYL4okVJSF7y8Ycw7N-kYwg0_GEmb2TFjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzf-wLaDUAhiM9ftqsrsG+tyt_qQ7sRSgOJ6YXRfwnqJ=w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Victor, for your note of caution.  It is not always possible to
render P??inian terms into modern Latinate terms.  Terms like "active" and
"middle" fall in the same catetory.  They don't match Parasmaipada and
?tmanepada, or kartari and karma?i in P??ini.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 6:21 AM victor davella via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> It is worth keeping in mind that (an)at/(an)adanta etc. are entirely
> formal in P??ini's grammar and have been rightly translated as "that which
> ends (or does not end) in shot a." What specifically ends (or does not end)
> in short a must be ascertained from the larger context of the s?tra. For
> example,  P. 7.1.5 ?tmanepade?v anata? prescribes that at (and not ant) be
> substituted for jh in jha, the suffix for the 3rd person plural ?tm. (or
> 1st person if we wish to be P??inian) given in P. 3.4.78. anata?, "of that
> which does not end in short a," modifies a?ga, "stem," (not specified to
> either a verbal or a nominal form), which is continued from P. 6.4.1
> a?gasya. This is how P??ini formulates a rule that one might give to
> students as: in the non-thematic verbal classes, there is no n in the 3rd
> person pl. ?tm., as apposed to labhante, padyante, etc. of the thematic
> classes.  But P??ini's rule extends beyond the present tense stems and in
> fact should not be strictly associated with anything other than "that which
> does not end in short a" because it is by this same rule that aorist forms
> are distinguished as well: adik?anta vs. ane?ata, etc. If we wish to use
> thematic and non-thematic as a sort of  equivalent for P??inian
> (an)at/(an)adanta, then it is crucial to include all places in the verbal
> paradigm where being (an)adanta comes into play.   On the other hand, just
> a few s?tras later, at is used in reference to a nominal form in P. 7.1.9
> ato bhisa ais, in which case at (= adanta) again modifies a?ga but one that
> is now nominal. The rule prescribes the substitution of ais for bhis, the
> latter of which is the basic ending for the instrumental plural (t?t?y?
> vibhakti), hence devai? and not devabhi?*. In any case, at/adanta is
> neither restricted to nominal or verbal forms nor the present stem.
>
> I find Abhyankar's entry on adanta somewhat misleading, as least as
> quoted, and not terribly informative of how (an)at/(an)adanta is used in in
> the A???dhy?y?. The business about "roots of the tenth conjugation which
> are given with the letter a at their end which is not looked upon as mute
> (it)..." is a bit recherch? and refers to a list of roots in the cur?di
> ga?a of the P??inian dh?tup??ha. In Liebich's edition it begins on p. 190
> with the head adant?? ita ? ga??nt?d ...  The reason, I believe, that he
> gives slightly obscure references is that he was looking for specific
> instances of adanta in the A???dhy?y? and not at, which, however, is
> usually to be understood as adanta. The opening sentence of his entry,
> nonetheless, repeats more or less the translation that has already been
> said: "ending with the short vowel a".
>
> All systems of grammar are fictional, and in teaching Sanskrit or whatever
> language, the terminology and categories that make the most sense in a
> specific context should be used. Comparison of preexisting systems, such as
> that of P??ini (we should also recall that there are other systems with
> different terminology and different definitions for the same P??inian
> terms), should only be undertaken once the object of comparison is well
> understood and beginning Sanskrit is usually not the place to begin such a
> comparison. I do, however, support familiarization with P??inian
> terminology but as it is defined by P??ini himself, not in reference to
> Latinate terms.
>
> All the Best,
> Victor
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:08 AM Chlodwig H Werba via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> In the given context, Andrew is -- pace Matthew -- absolutely right:
>> Every historical linguist not only in the 19th cent., but also nowadays
>> (as myself in the field of Indo-Iranian studies) would classify the
>> inherited skt. dev?- as a thematic noun and, e.g., its derivational
>> basis in Proto-Indo-European, being continued in Vedic Skt. by
>> dy?v-/div-? 'heaven', as an athematic one.
>> With best regards
>> Chlodwig H. Werba
>>
>>
>> Am 20.06.2018 12:53, schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
>> > Dear Andrew,
>> >
>> > You write that:
>> >
>> > "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
>> > simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
>> > in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
>> > "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit....
>> >
>> > Here is what Abhyankar, A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, p. 13, has
>> > to say about adanta:
>> >
>> > "ending with the short vowel a ... a term applied to nouns of that
>> > kind, and roots of the tenth conjugation..."
>> >
>> > This is surely not what the 19th c. grammarians had in mind in
>> > dividing the Skt. verb system according to the categories of thematic
>> > and athematic (none of them would have spoken of deva- as "a thematic
>> > noun"!)
>> >
>> > It seems a good example of Victor Davella's point about mixing up the
>> > terminology of differing systems.
>> >
>> > best,
>> >
>> > Matthew
>> >
>> > Matthew Kapstein
>> > Directeur d'?tudes,
>> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>> >
>> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> > The University of Chicago
>> >
>> > -------------------------
>> >
>> > FROM: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> > Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> > SENT: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:08:58 PM
>> > TO: indology
>> > SUBJECT: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
>> >
>> > There are real vaiy?kara?as on the list, but for what it is worth,
>> > "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
>> > simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
>> > in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
>> > "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a
>> > slightly more narrow version of the verbal stem to which
>> > s?rvadh?tuka affixes are added (more narrow because there are
>> > s?rvadh?tuka suffixes that wouldn't be considered part of the
>> > present system, like kha?). I have to say, though, that I would also
>> > appreciate some information about whether this identification holds.
>> > Max M?ller translated ?rdhadh?tuka and s?rvadh?tuka as "general
>> > or unmodified" tenses and "special or modified" tenses respectively.
>> >
>> > 2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info>:
>> >
>> >> Hello McComas,
>> >> A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook
>> >> in Robert Goldman?s _Devav???prave?ik?_ starting on p. 403.
>> >> They are in Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times
>> >> and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is not
>> >> very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy
>> >> always to find the term as in the example of the present tense:
>> >> _vartam?ne_ _la?_ directs you to _la?_ on the preceding page.
>> >> Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by
>> >> going through the four ad half pages of the glossary.
>> >>
>> >> Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.
>> >>
>> >> Edeltraud harzer
>> >>
>> >> University of Texas at Austin
>> >> Austin, USA
>> >>
>> >>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY
>> >>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear Friends
>> >>>
>> >>> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit
>> >>> into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where
>> >>> possible.
>> >>>
>> >>> She is asking for help with the following terms:
>> >>>
>> >>> present stem
>> >>>
>> >>> thematic and athematic verb classes
>> >>>
>> >>> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the
>> >>> information to her.
>> >>>
>> >>> With thanks in advance
>> >>>
>> >>> Yours
>> >>>
>> >>> McComas
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>> >>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>> >>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>> >>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>> >>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ [1]
>> >>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>> >>>
>> >>> Ask me about my new project:
>> >>> 'TRANSLATING THE VI??U PUR??A'
>> >>>
>> >>> __ _______________________________________________
>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> >>> committee)
>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list
>> >>> options or unsubscribe)
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> >> committee)
>> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> >> options or unsubscribe)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Links:
>> > ------
>> > [1] https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>> > [2] http://listinfo.indology.info/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> > committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>> > or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180620/3b987caa/attachment.htm>

From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Wed Jun 20 16:22:28 2018
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 18 18:22:28 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_all-pervasive_puru=E1=B9=A3a_in_classical_S=C4=81=E1=B9=83khya?=
In-Reply-To: <ACA699F2-58E3-49E8-8093-38090E928264@utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <20180620182228.2028f3f13c126d6137df72c3@ff.cuni.cz>

I thank to everyone who responded to my query on and off the list. Apparently there is no easy and simple answer to the problem of the all-pervasive puru?a as it is described in the Jayama?gal?. I am inclined to believe that (as Edeltraud Harzer mentioned) this commentary sometimes comes with concepts which are different from the classical S??khya mainstream teaching.

Best,
Lubomir


On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:49:35 -0500
Edeltraud Harzer <harzer at utexas.edu> wrote:

> Hello Lubom?re,
> 
> Even though your initial inquiry is about S??khya ontological questions, we can draw from some of the epistemological material of the YD, which shows that puru?a has no connection with vyakta, such as instruments/faculties engaged in the operation of acquiring knowledge. See YD on SK 36 (Wezler/Motegi edition), p. 223, l.1ff. 
> 
> tay? c?dhyavas?yar?p?pannay? cetan??aktir anug?hyate. na kara??ntarasya puru?e?a sambandho ?sti?
> 
> The intellect acquired the form of non-doubting awareness (adhyavas?ya) having accepted the conscious power/power of consciousness. There is no connection/bond of an internal instrument with the unintentional consciousness (puru?a)? 
> 
>  Of course, there is more to be said.
> 
> A little note: I would like to suggest that sometime we need to play a little with the way how we choose translating: vipary?sa, vipar?ta, etc., which may be understood as ?contrast? and not necessarily ?opposite.?    
> 
> Edeltraud Harzer. 
> 
> PS Jayama?gal? is suspected sometime that there might be other influences.
> 
> 
> > On Jun 18, 2018, at 11:04 AM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Dan,
> > 
> > thanks for this reference. As you say, this reflects a pre-classical or proto-S??khya teaching; in classical S??khya all puru?as are the same, there are no different types or kinds of puru?as. 
> > 
> > Jayama?gal? is probably the latest among the pre-Kaumud? commentaries and stays a bit apart from other commentaries. Sure, it might reflect some older teaching that survived outside the S??khya mainstream. But the question whether each puru?a is all-pervasive all the time or only when liberated seems to me rather crucial. All commentaries apparently take it for granted that puru?as are all-pervasive all the time, only Jayama?gal? for some reason distinguishes between liberated and non-liberated puru?a. This puzzles me. 
> > 
> > I simply do not understand how could puru?a (being an absolutely passive, reflective consciousness devoid of any activity) have any capacity for changing itself?
> > 
> > Best,
> > Lubomir
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:54:32 -040;
> > Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Dear Lubom?r,
> >> 
> >> If I understand correctly what you are asking, then one place to look would be the Bhagavad G?t?, XV.16-19 (though the G?t? reflects a pre-classical form of S??khya, in which, e.g., puru?a is still causal) which mentions three types of puru?a: K?ara puru?a, Ak?ara puru?a, and Puru?ottama (only the last is equivalent to Param?tman).
> >> 
> >> best wishes,
> >> Dan
> >> 
> >>> On Jun 17, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> This is surprising. According to this commentary, puru?a is all-pervasive only when liberated, otherwise he is not all-pervasive and in this sense similar to vyakta. I cannot answer the question of my students how could puru?a (who is absolutely passive etc.) change itself so dramatically? And where does this concept occur in classical S??khya? Could you please help me with these answers? I am not a specialist in S??khya, we have this seminar just for fun, so I probably missed something in S??khya teaching on puru?a. I promised to my students that I will ask this learned forum to get the right answers.
> >> 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 





From wujastyk at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 20:30:54 2018
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 18 14:30:54 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzf-wLaDUAhiM9ftqsrsG+tyt_qQ7sRSgOJ6YXRfwnqJ=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf+4AZ8GVRMACnHF5dwNbczV7x+suvKKOLsa9OVVx2_yw@mail.gmail.com>

Just a footnote on the issue of ?rdhadh?tuka/s?rvadh?tuka and the ten
verbal classes, as many will already know, the topic was definitively
discussed by Betty Shefts in

Shefts, B. (1961) *Grammatical Method in **P??ini*, American Oriental
Series . New Haven: American Oriental Society. Available at:
https://archive.org/details/SheftsBettyGrammaticalMethodInPaniniHisTreatmentOfSanskritPresentStemsBSheeftsNe_201803,
pp. 14 ff. *et passim*.

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.

South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca
??



On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 at 07:38, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thanks, Victor, for your note of caution.  It is not always possible to
> render P??inian terms into modern Latinate terms.  Terms like "active" and
> "middle" fall in the same catetory.  They don't match Parasmaipada and
> ?tmanepada, or kartari and karma?i in P??ini.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 6:21 AM victor davella via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> It is worth keeping in mind that (an)at/(an)adanta etc. are entirely
>> formal in P??ini's grammar and have been rightly translated as "that which
>> ends (or does not end) in shot a." What specifically ends (or does not end)
>> in short a must be ascertained from the larger context of the s?tra. For
>> example,  P. 7.1.5 ?tmanepade?v anata? prescribes that at (and not ant) be
>> substituted for jh in jha, the suffix for the 3rd person plural ?tm. (or
>> 1st person if we wish to be P??inian) given in P. 3.4.78. anata?, "of that
>> which does not end in short a," modifies a?ga, "stem," (not specified to
>> either a verbal or a nominal form), which is continued from P. 6.4.1
>> a?gasya. This is how P??ini formulates a rule that one might give to
>> students as: in the non-thematic verbal classes, there is no n in the 3rd
>> person pl. ?tm., as apposed to labhante, padyante, etc. of the thematic
>> classes.  But P??ini's rule extends beyond the present tense stems and in
>> fact should not be strictly associated with anything other than "that which
>> does not end in short a" because it is by this same rule that aorist forms
>> are distinguished as well: adik?anta vs. ane?ata, etc. If we wish to use
>> thematic and non-thematic as a sort of  equivalent for P??inian
>> (an)at/(an)adanta, then it is crucial to include all places in the verbal
>> paradigm where being (an)adanta comes into play.   On the other hand, just
>> a few s?tras later, at is used in reference to a nominal form in P. 7.1.9
>> ato bhisa ais, in which case at (= adanta) again modifies a?ga but one that
>> is now nominal. The rule prescribes the substitution of ais for bhis, the
>> latter of which is the basic ending for the instrumental plural (t?t?y?
>> vibhakti), hence devai? and not devabhi?*. In any case, at/adanta is
>> neither restricted to nominal or verbal forms nor the present stem.
>>
>> I find Abhyankar's entry on adanta somewhat misleading, as least as
>> quoted, and not terribly informative of how (an)at/(an)adanta is used in in
>> the A???dhy?y?. The business about "roots of the tenth conjugation which
>> are given with the letter a at their end which is not looked upon as mute
>> (it)..." is a bit recherch? and refers to a list of roots in the cur?di
>> ga?a of the P??inian dh?tup??ha. In Liebich's edition it begins on p. 190
>> with the head adant?? ita ? ga??nt?d ...  The reason, I believe, that he
>> gives slightly obscure references is that he was looking for specific
>> instances of adanta in the A???dhy?y? and not at, which, however, is
>> usually to be understood as adanta. The opening sentence of his entry,
>> nonetheless, repeats more or less the translation that has already been
>> said: "ending with the short vowel a".
>>
>> All systems of grammar are fictional, and in teaching Sanskrit or
>> whatever language, the terminology and categories that make the most sense
>> in a specific context should be used. Comparison of preexisting systems,
>> such as that of P??ini (we should also recall that there are other systems
>> with different terminology and different definitions for the same P??inian
>> terms), should only be undertaken once the object of comparison is well
>> understood and beginning Sanskrit is usually not the place to begin such a
>> comparison. I do, however, support familiarization with P??inian
>> terminology but as it is defined by P??ini himself, not in reference to
>> Latinate terms.
>>
>> All the Best,
>> Victor
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:08 AM Chlodwig H Werba via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>> In the given context, Andrew is -- pace Matthew -- absolutely right:
>>> Every historical linguist not only in the 19th cent., but also nowadays
>>> (as myself in the field of Indo-Iranian studies) would classify the
>>> inherited skt. dev?- as a thematic noun and, e.g., its derivational
>>> basis in Proto-Indo-European, being continued in Vedic Skt. by
>>> dy?v-/div-? 'heaven', as an athematic one.
>>> With best regards
>>> Chlodwig H. Werba
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 20.06.2018 12:53, schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
>>> > Dear Andrew,
>>> >
>>> > You write that:
>>> >
>>> > "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
>>> > simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
>>> > in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
>>> > "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit....
>>> >
>>> > Here is what Abhyankar, A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, p. 13, has
>>> > to say about adanta:
>>> >
>>> > "ending with the short vowel a ... a term applied to nouns of that
>>> > kind, and roots of the tenth conjugation..."
>>> >
>>> > This is surely not what the 19th c. grammarians had in mind in
>>> > dividing the Skt. verb system according to the categories of thematic
>>> > and athematic (none of them would have spoken of deva- as "a thematic
>>> > noun"!)
>>> >
>>> > It seems a good example of Victor Davella's point about mixing up the
>>> > terminology of differing systems.
>>> >
>>> > best,
>>> >
>>> > Matthew
>>> >
>>> > Matthew Kapstein
>>> > Directeur d'?tudes,
>>> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>> >
>>> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>> > The University of Chicago
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------
>>> >
>>> > FROM: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>>> > Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> > SENT: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:08:58 PM
>>> > TO: indology
>>> > SUBJECT: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit grammatical terms
>>> >
>>> > There are real vaiy?kara?as on the list, but for what it is worth,
>>> > "thematic" and "athematic" in the usage of most European grammars
>>> > simply mean "ending in -a" and "not ending in -a," which is captured
>>> > in traditional Sanskrit grammar by "at" (see 7.2.80 and 81), or
>>> > "adanta-" if you like to be more explicit, and "present stem" is a
>>> > slightly more narrow version of the verbal stem to which
>>> > s?rvadh?tuka affixes are added (more narrow because there are
>>> > s?rvadh?tuka suffixes that wouldn't be considered part of the
>>> > present system, like kha?). I have to say, though, that I would also
>>> > appreciate some information about whether this identification holds.
>>> > Max M?ller translated ?rdhadh?tuka and s?rvadh?tuka as "general
>>> > or unmodified" tenses and "special or modified" tenses respectively.
>>> >
>>> > 2018-06-19 18:08 GMT+02:00 Edeltraud Harzer via INDOLOGY
>>> > <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>> >
>>> >> Hello McComas,
>>> >> A glossary of grammatical Sanskrit terms is appended to the textbook
>>> >> in Robert Goldman?s _Devav???prave?ik?_ starting on p. 403.
>>> >> They are in Sanskrit with a straight English translation at times
>>> >> and other times they are just explained. If your colleague is not
>>> >> very familiar with Sanskrit grammatical terms, it may not be easy
>>> >> always to find the term as in the example of the present tense:
>>> >> _vartam?ne_ _la?_ directs you to _la?_ on the preceding page.
>>> >> Many of the translations/explanations terms are easily found by
>>> >> going through the four ad half pages of the glossary.
>>> >>
>>> >> Wishing good luck to your colleague's enterprise.
>>> >>
>>> >> Edeltraud harzer
>>> >>
>>> >> University of Texas at Austin
>>> >> Austin, USA
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 7:35 PM, McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY
>>> >>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Dear Friends
>>> >>>
>>> >>> A Cambodian colleague is translating Gonda's grammar of Sanskrit
>>> >>> into Khmer. She would like to use Sanskrit grammatical terms where
>>> >>> possible.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> She is asking for help with the following terms:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> present stem
>>> >>>
>>> >>> thematic and athematic verb classes
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If some kind person could respond to me, I'll forward the
>>> >>> information to her.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> With thanks in advance
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Yours
>>> >>>
>>> >>> McComas
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>
>>> >>> McComas Taylor, SFHEA
>>> >>> Associate Professor, Reader in Sanskrit
>>> >>> College of Asia and the Pacific
>>> >>> The Australian National University, Tel. + 61 2 6125 3179
>>> >>> Website: https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/ [1]
>>> >>> Address: Baldessin Building 4.24, ANU, ACT 0200
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Ask me about my new project:
>>> >>> 'TRANSLATING THE VI??U PUR??A'
>>> >>>
>>> >>> __ _______________________________________________
>>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> >>> committee)
>>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [2] (where you can change your list
>>> >>> options or unsubscribe)
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> >> committee)
>>> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>> >> options or unsubscribe)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Links:
>>> > ------
>>> > [1] https://sites.google.com/site/mccomasanu/
>>> > [2] http://listinfo.indology.info/
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> > committee)
>>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> > or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180621/08b36558/attachment.htm>

From Heleen.DeJonckheere at UGent.be  Fri Jun 22 12:08:47 2018
From: Heleen.DeJonckheere at UGent.be (Heleen De Jonckheere)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 18 12:08:47 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Unreadable Colophon
Message-ID: <724078c1070b4f8c872d9ca9d2d0ddc0@xmail201.UGent.be>

Dear Indology members,

I am trying to decipher a colophon of a Jain manuscript of Hari?ena?s Dhammaparikkh?, but I have trouble in reading some parts of it.
Could anyone help me with the lines that I have marked? (picture below)
The colophon starts with giving the date (sa?vat 1595 var?e pau?adha m?se ?ukla pak?e ? tithau vu(?) ma?galav?re), but after that I cannot figure out what it says.
I suspect it is about a place and about a ruler of that time.

This obtained this manuscript from Kobatirth, where they told me it is a manuscript from Bhanka. Does anyone know how the manuscripts from Bhanka ended up in Kobatirth, and what the original bhandar was?

[cid:image001.png at 01D40A32.78CC1430]

Many thanks!

Yours,
Heleen

Heleen De Jonckheere
Doctoral Researcher (BOF)
Dept. Languages and Cultures
Ghent University
Blandijnberg 2 - 9000 Ghent - Room 150.009
Heleen.DeJonckheere at Ugent.be<mailto:Heleen.DeJonckheere at Ugent.be>
www.jainastudies.ugent.be<http://www.jainastudies.ugent.be>






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180622/e2250f7a/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Fri Jun 22 17:24:50 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 18 10:24:50 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzebd_=aBFKKJkpmseTkkW91H7JKyYdg1sEnTR=seCze-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses:

???????? ????? ???? ????????????? ???? ?

????? ????????? ?? ?? ??????????: ???????

O Kr???a, Enchanter of the world, having enchanted the entire world you
hide in the space of my heart.  Be visible to me.


????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ?

??????????????????????: ????????? ???????

O M?dhava, when you come and stand in front of me, with my mind stolen away
by you, I am unable to find words.


????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???? ??????? ?

?????????????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???????

Fulfilled is the day and fulfilled I am.  O Beautiful Looking Krishna, I
have seen you.  I have only one request.  Make this world sweet.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180622/8d52a126/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 03:19:02 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 18 21:19:02 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09=C5=9Avet=C4=81mbara_Jain_texts_available_in_digital_format_(Unicode_Devan=C4=81gar=C4=AB)?=
In-Reply-To: <BF9AA983-F676-43D7-ABC6-EDFDCA29296D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYt9WrxG5puO85iWFGrT2vYKfogpW-UtVERLU3Ho_jjCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Following up on the notification from Royce that the ?vet?mbara Jain
canonical texts in the original Prakrit are available in searchable files,
the other need is the commentaries on them, whether searchable or not. Most
of these are in Sanskrit, even though they are on texts in Prakrit. For
several decades, the main editions of these available were those included
in the canonical text editions by ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda, published by
the ?gamodaya Samiti starting in 1915 and continuing into the 1930s. But
almost none of these ever reached North America.

M. B. Emeneau's 1935 *Union List of Printed Indic Texts and Translations in
American Libraries* lists a grand total of four of these texts (2 at
Cleveland Public Library, 1 at University of Chicago Library, and 1 at Yale
University Library). A WorldCat search just now turned up only a few more
at Yale. This was no doubt a big factor in the paucity of Jaina studies by
American Indologists. These texts did not even start being replaced by
critical editions until the Jaina-?gama-Series published by the Shr? Mah?v?ra
Jaina Vidy?laya of Bombay (which began in 1968) started including Sanskrit
commentaries in 1999, and only a few with commentaries have so far been
published.

So I was quite happy to see the announcement of the
*Sav?ttika-?gama-Sutt??i* in 2017, which consists of photographic reprints
of ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda's editions in 40 volumes, prepared and
supplemented by the indefatigable Muni D?paratnas?gara. I intended to post
a notice of them here; but after receiving my set (can be purchased through
Biblia Impex), I saw that they were printed from the digital files
available at the Jain eLibrary. They can be found there under this spelling
of the title, Savruttik Aagam Sootraani, or of the editor, Anandsagarsuri,
or under the serial number 035001 and following.

The need for editions of the ?vet?mbara canonical texts with commentaries
had been met by Muni D?paratnas?gara with his 2000 publication of *?gama
Sutt??i (sa??ka?)* in 30 volumes (now also available at the Jain eLibrary,
serial numbers 003305 to 003334). However, when I was cataloguing my set
several years ago, I was somewhat dismayed to see typographical errors even
in some of the titles on the title pages (the volumes were all newly
typeset). Many (all?) of the volumes of ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda's editions
were typeset at the famous Nirnaya Sagar Press, Bombay, known for their
careful work. So I tend to trust the 2017 reprints over the 2000 newly
typeset edition. It may be that the corrections made by Muni D?paratnas?gara
in the 2000 edition over previous editions are more than counterbalanced by
the newly introduced typographical errors.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Royce Wiles via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> *?vet?mbara Jain texts available in digital format (Unicode Devan?gar?)*
>
> I wish to draw attention to a set of 45 ?vet?mbara Jain canonical texts
> in the original Prakrit uploaded as Word documents in (mostly?) Unicode
> compliant Devan?gari that has been available for sometime from the Jain
> eLibrary (run by Jain Education International).
>
> The eLibrary new website can be found with a search under jainlibrary.org or
> similar terms (registration and approval is necessary there for access or
> to download the files for personal use). Searching on that site is a bit
> complex, the quickest way to locate these particular 45  files (amongst the
> hundreds of scanned and uploaded books) is to search using the file
> identification numbers 003701-003789 (only odd numbers though from that
> range).
>
> As indicated in the email below (shared with permission), in 1996 Muni
> D?paratnas?gara-j? released his editions of the 45 texts of the ?vet?mbara
> Jain canon in booklet form based mainly on the ?gama ma?j??? set (1940s)
> (also on the website and available on-line) (003901 to 003953), which in
> turn was based on ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda?s earlier editions.
>
> By 2012 Muni D?paratnas?gara-j? had produced and released those 45
> versions as digital files in Unicode Devan?gari: PDF and Word files can now
> be downloaded file by file, which means a searchable set of canonical texts
> is available for the first time (admittedly without apparatus but it is a
> wonderful starting point and put together by a single individual working
> consistently over many years).
>
> Recently Pravin Shah, sent me the email below, based directly on Muni-j??s
> responses to my question about the basis for his textual work and this
> background is important for scholars making use of these documents (which
> certainly need to be recognized as a major step forward for studies of Jain
> texts and Prakrits).
>
> Royce WILES
>
> PS Any questions about accessing the texts can perhaps best be emailed to
> Pravin-bhai though he is travelling at the moment.
>
> On 5 Jun 2018, at 22:05, Pravin K Shah <jainaedu at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Royce,
>
> I have talked to Pujya Shri Deepratna-sagarji to list all references used
> in compilation of these 45 Agams.  The following is the list of all
> references.
>
> The searchable docx files were prepared from the 45 Agam Mool Sutra books
> (Agam Suttani) that were published by him (Shri Deepratnasagar Maharaj
> Saheb) in 1996 (elibrary sr. numbers -  009727 to 009775). In these books
> reference Gatha number is indicated at the end of each Gatha.
> Main References
>
> The main source of the publication of these 45 Agam Mool Sutra books were
> "Agam Manjusha" compiled by Pujya Shri Anand-Sagar-Suri (popularly known as
> Sagaranand-suri) published about 70 to 75 years ago (eLibrary Sr. Number -
> 003901 to 003953). Also several other references were also used, and they
> are listed below.
> Other References
>
>    - *Vrutties of 45 aagam literature (except 6 Chhed Sutras and Chandra
>    Pragnapti 38 aagams).  Edited By poojy Shri Sagaranandsooriji
>    - Some Churnis of Agam Literature
>    - Paynnas & some other Aagams compiled by Muni Shri Punyavijayji
>    - Some Manuscript of non printed Aagam from L D Indology, Ahmadabad
>    - 32 Agams of Sthanakvasi sect compiled by Acharya Ghasilalji (eLib#
>    006301 to 006399)
>    - 32 Agams of Terapanthi sect compiled by Acharya Tulasi (eLib# 003551
>    to 003627)
>    - Suttagam (eLib# 003551 to 003627)
>
> Note *
>
> ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ???????? ???
> ???????? ??? ??????? ??.
>
>    - ?? ????????? ? ??? ?????? ??? ??????????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??.
>    ?????????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? (?) ?????? ?????, (?) ??????
>    ?????? ???, (?) ?????? ??????? ???? ? ???? ???????? ???????? ? ???? ??.
>    - ??? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??.
>    - ?????????? ? ??. ??????????? ?. ???????.
>    - ?????-??. ?????????? ???????
>    - ?????-??. ???? ????? ???????
>    - ????????-??. ????????? ??????? ??.
>    - ?????????? ?????? ???. ??????????? ?? ?????? ? ??? ??. ???? ?????
>    ???????? ?? ???? ???.
>
> Suggested Other Agam References
>
> In addition to above 45 docx (searchable) files, Maharaj Saheb has also
> published two more Agam related searchable files as follows:
>
>    - Agam Vishay Anukram in Gujarati (eLibrary serial Num - 009143).  This
>    is a very useful file to search the Agam references of any subject / Topic.
>    - Agam Sankshipta Parichay in Gujarati (eLibrary serial Num - 035100)
>
> Also, there are good non-searchable Agam references compiled by Shri
> Deepratnasagarji
>
>    - Agam Suttani Satikam Part 1 to 30 (30 books ? eLibrary Sr 003305 to
>    003334)
>    - Agam Shabda Kosh Part 1 to 4 (4 Books ? eLibrary Sr. 016024 to
>    016027)
>
> I work with Maharaj Saheb for last 8 years to scan all his Agam related
> work and upload them in Jain eLibrary website.
>
> He does not have any team to help him.  All his printed publications and
> web publications work was compiled by him alone.  He is a very
> hard-working Maharaj Saheb.
>
> Thanks
>
> Pravin Shah
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180623/7984c17e/attachment.htm>

From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 10:42:12 2018
From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 18 12:42:12 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9Avet=C4=81mbara_Jain_texts_available_in_digital_format_(Unicode_Devan=C4=81gar=C4=AB)?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekYt9WrxG5puO85iWFGrT2vYKfogpW-UtVERLU3Ho_jjCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b82667a1-649b-4dfa-449c-99f0092103d9@gmail.com>

I would like to mention two points regarding the ?vet?mbara Jain 
canonical texts ( Anandsagarsuri) at? Jain eLibrary:

1. I opened one .docx-file: there is no searchable Unicode text but just 
pictures from the manuscripts.

2. The most important sources are still the C?r?is, since they are 
written in Prakrit without Sanskrit commentary and supposed to be one or 
two centuries earlier written down than Haribhadra's V?ttis 
(=Anandasagarsuri's edition). C?r?is are not included in the 
Anandasagarsukri-Edition. Or did I miss them?

Best

Heiner


Am 24.06.2018 um 05:19 schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY:
> Following up on the notification from Royce that the ?vet?mbara Jain 
> canonical texts in the original Prakrit are available in searchable 
> files, the other need is the commentaries on them, whether searchable 
> or not. Most of these are in Sanskrit, even though they are on texts 
> in Prakrit. For several decades, the main editions of these available 
> were those included in the canonical text editions by 
> ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda, published by the ?gamodaya Samiti starting 
> in 1915 and continuing into the 1930s. But almost none of these ever 
> reached North America.
>
> M. B. Emeneau's 1935 /Union List of Printed Indic Texts and 
> Translations in American Libraries/ lists a grand total of four of 
> these texts (2 at Cleveland Public Library, 1 at University of Chicago 
> Library, and 1 at Yale University Library). A WorldCat search just now 
> turned up only a few more at Yale. This was no doubt a big factor in 
> the paucity of Jaina studies by American Indologists. These texts did 
> not even start being replaced by critical editions until the 
> Jaina-?gama-Series published by the Shr? Mah?v?ra Jaina Vidy?laya of 
> Bombay (which began in 1968) started including Sanskrit commentaries 
> in 1999, and only a few with commentaries have so far been published.
>
> So I was quite happy to see the announcement of the 
> /Sav?ttika-?gama-Sutt??i/ in 2017, which consists of photographic 
> reprints of ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda's editions in 40 volumes, 
> prepared and supplemented by the indefatigable Muni D?paratnas?gara. I 
> intended to post a notice of them here; but after receiving my set 
> (can be purchased through Biblia Impex), I saw that they were printed 
> from the digital files available at the Jain eLibrary. They can be 
> found there under this spelling of the title, Savruttik Aagam 
> Sootraani, or of the editor, Anandsagarsuri, or under the serial 
> number 035001 and following.
>
> The need for editions of the ?vet?mbara canonical texts with 
> commentaries had been met by Muni D?paratnas?gara with his 2000 
> publication of /?gama Sutt??i (sa??ka?)/ in 30 volumes (now also 
> available at the Jain eLibrary, serial numbers 003305 to 003334). 
> However, when I was cataloguing my set several years ago, I was 
> somewhat dismayed to see typographical errors even in some of the 
> titles on the title pages (the volumes were all newly typeset). Many 
> (all?) of the volumes of ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda's editions were 
> typeset at the famous Nirnaya Sagar Press, Bombay, known for their 
> careful work. So I tend to trust the 2017 reprints over the 2000 newly 
> typeset edition. It may be that the corrections made by Muni 
> D?paratnas?gara in the 2000 edition over previous editions are more 
> than counterbalanced by the newly introduced typographical errors.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Reigle
> Colorado, U.S.A.
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Royce Wiles via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>
>     *?vet?mbara Jain texts available in digital format (Unicode
>     Devan?gar?)*
>
>     I wish to draw attention to a set of 45 ?vet?mbara Jain canonical
>     texts in the original Prakrit uploaded as Word documents in
>     (mostly?) Unicode compliant Devan?gari that has been available for
>     sometime from the Jain eLibrary (run by Jain Education
>     International).
>
>     The eLibrary new website can be found with a search under
>     jainlibrary.org <http://jainlibrary.org>?or similar terms
>     (registration and approval is necessary there for access or to
>     download the files for personal use). Searching on that site is a
>     bit complex, the quickest way to locate these particular 45 ?files
>     (amongst the hundreds of scanned and uploaded books) is to search
>     using the file identification numbers 003701-003789 (only odd
>     numbers though from that range).
>
>     As indicated in the email below (shared with permission), in 1996
>     Muni D?paratnas?gara-j? released his editions of the 45 texts of
>     the ?vet?mbara Jain canon in booklet form based mainly on the
>     ?gama ma?j??? set (1940s) (also on the website and available
>     on-line) (003901 to 003953), which in turn was based on
>     ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda?s earlier editions.
>
>     By 2012 Muni D?paratnas?gara-j? had produced and released those 45
>     versions as digital files in Unicode Devan?gari: PDF and Word
>     files can now be downloaded file by file, which means a searchable
>     set of canonical texts is available for the first time (admittedly
>     without apparatus but it is a wonderful starting point and put
>     together by a single individual working consistently over many years).
>
>     Recently Pravin Shah, sent me the email below, based directly on
>     Muni-j??s responses to my question about the basis for his textual
>     work and this background is important for scholars making use of
>     these documents (which certainly need to be recognized as a major
>     step forward for studies of Jain texts and Prakrits).
>
>     Royce WILES
>
>
>     PS Any questions about accessing the texts can perhaps best be
>     emailed to Pravin-bhai though he is travelling at the moment.
>
>>     On 5 Jun 2018, at 22:05, Pravin K Shah <jainaedu at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:jainaedu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear Royce,
>>
>>     I have talked to Pujya Shri Deepratna-sagarji to list all
>>     references used in compilation of these 45 Agams.The following is
>>     the list of all references.
>>
>>     The searchable docx files were prepared from the 45 Agam Mool
>>     Sutra books (Agam Suttani) that were published by him (Shri
>>     Deepratnasagar Maharaj Saheb) in 1996 (elibrary sr. numbers
>>     -009727 to 009775). In these books reference Gatha number is
>>     indicated at the end of each Gatha.
>>
>>
>>           Main References
>>
>>     The main source of the publication of these 45 Agam Mool Sutra
>>     books were "Agam Manjusha" compiled by Pujya Shri
>>     Anand-Sagar-Suri (popularly known as Sagaranand-suri) published
>>     about 70 to 75 years ago (eLibrary Sr. Number - 003901 to
>>     003953). Also several other references were also used, and they
>>     are listed below.
>>
>>
>>           Other References
>>
>>       * *Vrutties of 45 aagam literature (except 6 Chhed Sutras and
>>         Chandra Pragnapti 38 aagams).Edited By poojy Shri
>>         Sagaranandsooriji
>>       * Some Churnis of Agam Literature
>>       * Paynnas & some other Aagams compiled by Muni Shri Punyavijayji
>>       * Some Manuscript of non printed Aagam from L D Indology, Ahmadabad
>>       * 32 Agams of Sthanakvasi sect compiled by Acharya Ghasilalji
>>         (eLib# 006301 to 006399)
>>       * 32 Agams of Terapanthi sect compiled by Acharya Tulasi (eLib#
>>         003551 to 003627)
>>       * Suttagam (eLib# 003551 to 003627)
>>
>>
>>           Note *
>>
>>     ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ????????
>>     ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ??.
>>
>>       * ?? ????????? ? ??? ?????? ??? ??????????? ??????? ???? ????
>>         ??? ??. ?????????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? (?) ?????? ?????,
>>         (?) ?????? ?????? ???, (?) ?????? ??????? ???? ? ????
>>         ???????? ???????? ? ???? ??.
>>       * ??? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??.
>>       * ?????????? ? ??. ??????????? ?. ???????.
>>       * ?????-??. ?????????? ???????
>>       * ?????-??. ???? ????? ???????
>>       * ????????-??. ????????? ??????? ??.
>>       * ?????????? ?????? ???. ??????????? ?? ?????? ? ??? ??. ????
>>         ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???.
>>
>>
>>           Suggested Other Agam References
>>
>>     In addition to above 45 docx (searchable) files, Maharaj Saheb
>>     has also published two more Agam related searchable files as follows:
>>
>>       * Agam Vishay Anukram in Gujarati (eLibrary serial Num -
>>         009143).This is a very useful file to search the Agam
>>         references of any subject / Topic.
>>       * Agam Sankshipta Parichay in Gujarati (eLibrary serial Num -
>>         035100)
>>
>>     Also, there are good non-searchable Agam references compiled by
>>     Shri Deepratnasagarji
>>
>>       * Agam Suttani Satikam Part 1 to 30 (30 books ? eLibrary Sr
>>         003305 to 003334)
>>       * Agam Shabda Kosh Part 1 to 4 (4 Books ? eLibrary Sr. 016024
>>         to 016027)
>>
>>     I work with Maharaj Saheb for last 8 years to scan all his Agam
>>     related work and upload them in Jain eLibrary website.
>>
>>     He does not have any team to help him.All his printed
>>     publications and web publications work was compiled by him
>>     alone.He is a very hard-working Maharaj Saheb.
>>
>>     Thanks
>>
>>     Pravin Shah
>>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     INDOLOGY mailing list
>     INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>     indology-owner at list.indology.info
>     <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's
>     managing committee)
>     http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>     options or unsubscribe)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

-- 
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180624/226cba7a/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Jun 24 16:29:22 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 18 09:29:22 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfWHJ5YBku7KaszaJC3T8Nbo5A8fKC4U1b=J3sH55h9mQ@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses

??????????????: ????? ????????? ?????? ???? ?

???? ???????? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ???????

A baby, just born, you were taken to Gokula at night.  Your mother who was
scared cried: ?Where are you, O Kr???a??


????????? ???????? ????????????? ??? ????: ?

??????????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???????? ?????? ???????

Taken to the home of Nanda, you, the child, were placed there, O Kr???a.  While
returning, your father says: ?Alas! Alas! Where are you my child!?


?????? ????????? ?????????????? ?

????? ????????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

Mother Ya?od?, not seeing you, runs after you who are running on the bank
of Yamun?.  Where are you, Kr???a?


?????? ?????????? ?????? ???? ??????????????? ?

????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ???????

Tied fast to the mortar by your mother, you still went out of the courtyard.
The worried mother Ya?od? says: ?Where are you, O Kr???a??


????????: ?? ??????? ???? ????????????: ?????: ?

???????? ?????????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

Playing with your friends, you hid behind a tree.  Your friends are calling
you: ?O Kr???a, where are you??


?????? ???????? ????? ???????? ?????? ?

??????????????????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

To take care of the serpent K?liya, you entered the water of the river and
was not seen.  Where are you, O Kr???a?


????????? ????? ?????????: ????????? ????????? ?

????????? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???????

Not seeing you, your scared friends are crying: ?Come out! Where are you?
Alas! Alas! O Kr???a!?


??????? ???? ????????? ??????: ???? ??: ?

???????, ????????????: ????????? ?? ??????? ???????

Dancing on the bank of Yamun? with the milkmaids, you suddenly became
invisible.  The tormented girls are crying because of you.


???????????? ??? ???: ????????? ????????: ?

????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

?You pitiless Kr???a, you went away abandoning us who are proud of
ourselves.  Our mind is attached to you, O Kr???a.  Where are you??


???????? ??? ???? ?????? ????????????? ?

????? ???? ? ?????: ???????? ??????? ???????

?Along with Akr?ra you went to Mathur? from the courtyard of Gokula.  We
cannot live without you.  O Kr???a, where are you??

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180624/2c553a71/attachment.htm>

From adheesh1 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 01:08:34 2018
From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (adheesh sathaye)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 18 18:08:34 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] 17th World Sanskrit Conference: Programme and Schedule of Papers
Message-ID: <80F09DE4-2048-41D3-9204-79A25BCD1106@gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues:

With two weeks left until the start of the 17th World Sanskrit Conference, to be held in Vancouver, Canada, July 9-13, 2018, we are pleased to release the Conference Programme and Schedule of Papers. 

You may download the Schedule of Papers HERE (6MB, 46 pages): https://tinyurl.com/y9btwlkp

Or download the complete 100-page full Conference Programme HERE (25 MB, 100 pages): https://tinyurl.com/ycsnta58

A printed version of the full programme, including the Schedule of Papers, is in production and will be provided to all registered participants in your conference bag when you check in at the WSC2018 Registration Desk.

Our enthusiastic WSC2018 Production Team of UBC students have also put together a guide to local restaurants, pubs, and places to see, called ?????????, which will also be included in your conference bag.

The guide is currently available for download HERE (4MB, 28 pages): https://tinyurl.com/yc9dnpwy

Here are some highlights of the WSC2018 Programme:

The 17th WSC features more than 500 papers in 24 distinct topical sections, as well as 20 special panels, workshops, and roundtables. 
Three distinguished speakers are confirmed to deliver lectures during the plenary session in the morning of Monday July 9 at the Chan Centre for the Performing Arts: 
George Cardona (Pennsylvania), "Philology, Text History and History of Ideas?
Dipti Tripathi (Delhi, NMM), "Reflections on Manuscriptology: Forays into Indian Paradigms of Knowledge Management?
Arvind Sharma (McGill), "The Surprising Modernity of Bhavabhu?ti?s Uttarara?macarita?
Other featured/keynote speakers:
Mah?mahop?dhy?ya Bhadreshdas Swami, "Aks?ara-Purus?ottama Dars?ana: Introduction & Book Launch? (Monday, July 9, 12-12.30PM)
Alexis Sanderson (Oxford), "The S?a?kta Transformation of S?aivism,? (Tuesday, July 10, 10.30AM-12.30PM)
Kaushal Panwar (Delhi) and Ananya Vajpeyi (CSDS, Delhi), with Mandakranta Bose (UBC): ?The Story of Our Sanskrit, A Public Forum on Gender & Caste in Sanskrit Studies? (Tuesday, July 10, 8-10PM)
Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE), "Registres de la the?a?tralite? indienne : le the?a?tre comme pratique religieuse? (Keynote French Lecture) (Wednesday, July 11, 4.30-6PM)
Vikram Chandra, ?The Poetry of Amazement? (Thursday, July 12, 6.30-7.30PM) [Indian Summer Festival Event]
James Mallinson, "Yoga: To Mortify or Cultivate the Body?? (Thursday, July 12, 8-9.30PM)
WSC Cultural Events open to the Public:
Monday, July 9, 7-11PM: ?Living Legends: A Rare Performance of K??iy???am Sanskrit Theatre? - Featuring the Nepathya Troupe performing B?livadham (Chan Centre for the Performing Arts, UBC)
Tuesday, July 10, 8-9.30PM: ??ivo?ham: ?iva through Indian Classical Music & Dance? - Presented by the Naad Foundation and Sudnya Dance Academy (Frederic Wood Theatre, UBC)
Wednesday, July 11, 7.30-10PM: ?Dak?i??patha: The Classical Music & Dance of South India? - Featuring Padma Sugavanam (Chennai/New Jersey, USA) and Mandala Arts & Culture (Vancouver), with guest dancer Naren Ganesan (Sanskriti, Edmonton) (Frederic Wood Theatre, UBC)
All-Conference Banquet for registered WSC participants, with a talk by Gary Tubb (Chicago) on Friday, July 13, 6-9PM (Vegetarian catering by Dhaliwal Caterers, Surrey) (Great Hall at the UBC Student Nest)
Sessions conducted in Sanskrit:
Ak?arapuru?ottama Dar?ana Vidvadgo??h?, moderated by Deven Patel (Pennsylvania), Tuesday, July 10, 4.30-6PM
??stracarc?sadas (Legal Debate) & Kavisamav?ya (Poets? Forum), Friday, July 13, 8AM-12.30PM
Workshops on Digital Sanskrit Studies - Computational Linguistics & Digital Humanities: Wednesday, July 11, 10.30AM-4PM
Sessions on K??iy???am Performance: Thursday, July 12, 2-6PM
Featured Section on Yoga and ?yurveda - Wednesday & Thursday, all day
Confirmed Exhibitors: Biblia Impex/Aditya Prakashan, Brill Publishers, Dev Publishers, DK Agencies, Radhika Devi, Sa?sk?tabh?rat?, Svadhyaya Publications, Vyoma Linguistic Labs + others! 

If you are a registered participant who will be coming to present your paper at the WSC, but *don?t* to see your paper in the schedule of papers, or should happen to notice other errors in scheduling, please let us know at once and we will look into the situation. If you have not yet downloaded and read the Fourth Circular, we urge you to do so, by going to the WSC website - wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca <http://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/>. You will also find the latest information on Housing, Meal plans, and Excursion bookings, if you still need to complete these formalities. 

We look forward to welcoming you all to Vancouver, Canada, in two short weeks! 


?
Secretariat, 17th World Sanskrit Conference, Vancouver, Canada ? July 9-13, 2018
wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca <http://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/>  || wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca <mailto:wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca> || +1 604 822 5188









-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180624/e8950ec1/attachment.htm>

From huesken at uni-heidelberg.de  Mon Jun 25 20:50:35 2018
From: huesken at uni-heidelberg.de (Ute Huesken)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 18 22:50:35 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] workshop: Dynamics of Female Agency in Buddhism and Hinduism at SAI, Heidelberg University
Message-ID: <31325695-9e0c-cd89-9a8d-1dbf1b8b2b87@uni-heidelberg.de>

Dear colleagues,

if you are in the area, we'd be happy to welcome you at the workshop


  Dynamics of Female Agency in Buddhism and Hinduism


/date/: 2.-3.7.2018

/location/: Heinrich Zimmer Lesesaal, South Asia Institute, Heidelberg 
University


  Program


    *Day 1: 2.7.2018*

9:30-10:00 *William Sax* (Director of the South Asia Institute): /Welcome /

*??? Ute H?sken:*/Introduction/

/Session 1.1/

Chair: *Rahul Mukherji* (South Asia Institute)

10:00-10:45*Amy Langenberg*(Eckerd College, Florida)

/Modalities of Female Agency at Peace Grove Institute, Lumbini, Nepal/

10:45-11:30*Ute H?sken*(South Asia Institute, Heidelberg University)

/Tradition, Innovation, and Resistance? //Training Girls in Vedic Rituals/

/Session 1.2/

Chair: *Astrid Zotter* (AdW Heidelberg)

12:00-12:45*Antoinette E.?DeNapoli*(Texas Christian University)

/"The Satis are Rising!" A Female Guru's Quest for Gender-Based Justice 
in Contemporary India/

/Session 2.1/

Chair: *J?rg Gengnagel* (W?rzburg University)

14:00-14:45*Priyanka Ramlakhan*(University of Florida, Gainesville)/
/

/??? ??? ??? ??? Hindu Women?s Ritual Agency in Trinidad/

14:45-15:30*Valeriya Gazizova *(Cambridge University)

/Female religious specialists in Kalmykia: custodians or reformers of 
traditional cosmology?/

/Session 2.2/

Chair: *Michael Radich* (Heidelberg Center for Transcultural Studies)

16:00-16:45*Elena Valussi*(Loyola University Chicago)

/Gender difference and gender equality for Buddhist women in early 20th 
century China/

16:45-17:30 concluding discussion of day 1


    *Day 2: 3.7.2018*

/Session 3.1/

Chair: *Christiane Brosius* (Heidelberg Center for Transcultural Studies)

10:00-10:45*Tarini Bedi (*University of Illinois at Chicago)

/Body-Politics and the Gendered Politics of Hindu Militancy: Shiv Sena 
Women and Political Agency in Western India/

10:45-11:30*Iselin Frydenlund*(MF Norwegian School of Theology)

/Buddhist radicalism: a vehicle for female empowerment?/

/Session 3.2/

Chair: *NN*

12:00-12:45*Shefali More*(Heidelberg University)

/Women?s rights to enter in places of Hindu worship/

/Session 4.1/

Chair: *Hans Harder* (South Asia Institute)

14:00-14:45*Martin Seeger*(University of Leeds)

/Female Buddhist practitioners in late 19th and 20th century Thailand 
and the path to awakening/

14:45-15:30*Vasudha Narayanan*(University of Florida, Gainesville)

/Sharing Bhakti, Singing Devotion:Women Teachers and Narrative Exponents 
in the Hindu Diaspora/

/Session 4.2/

Chair: *Borayin Larios* (EHESS/South Asia Institute)

16:00-16:45*Caroline Starkey*(University of Leeds)

/Buddhist Practice vs Feminist Politics? British Buddhist Women 
Navigating Gender Equality, Inequality, and the spaces in-between/

16:45-17:30 concluding discussion of day 2



-- 

Prof. Dr. Ute H?sken
Head of the Department
Cultural and Religious History of South Asia (Classical Indology)
South Asia Institute
Heidelberg University
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/huesken/huesken.php



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180625/9434c0a3/attachment.htm>

From dnreigle at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 21:15:50 2018
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 18 15:15:50 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09=C5=9Avet=C4=81mbara_Jain_texts_available_in_digital_format_(Unicode_Devan=C4=81gar=C4=AB)?=
In-Reply-To: <b82667a1-649b-4dfa-449c-99f0092103d9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekbDU91L1RfKtGD333431tru4y-_+4oC886zXZ3uwPuxRA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Heiner,

It may be that you got only text images rather than searchable text of the
?vet?mbara Jain canonical texts for one or two reasons. On my computer, I
had to click "enable editing" to make the .docx Word file searchable. The
PDF file of the same text was searchable upon opening. The other
possibility is downloading the wrong file. As Royce said, the Jain eLibrary
site is a bit complex, because they have so many texts. The searchable
files are the serial numbers 003701-003789 (only odd numbers).

No doubt the C?r?is are more important than the Sanskrit commentaries,
because they are older. But aside from the fact that we only have C?r?is on
some of the canonical texts, the very fact that they are in Prakrit like
the canonical texts presents the same accessibility problems. Already a
thousand years ago Jain writers such as Abhayadeva-s?ri felt the need to
write Sanskrit commentaries on the Prakrit canonical texts to make them
more accessible.

You are right that the available C?r?is are not included in
?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda's editions. However, Muni D?paratnas?gara's
2000 *?gama
Sutt??i (sa??ka?)* in 30 volumes includes Jinad?sa Mahattara's C?r?i
on the Ni??tha-cheda-s?tram
(vols. 15-17), Jinad?sa Mahattara's C?r?i on the Da???rutaskandha-cheda-s?tram
(in vol. 23), and Siddhasenaga?i's C?r?i on the J?takalpa-cheda-s?tram
(also in vol. 23). Jinad?sa Mahattara's C?r?i on the Anuyogadv?ra-s?tram
was included in the critical edition of the Anuyogadv?ras?tram prepared by
Muni Jamb?vijaya and published in 2 parts as volume 18 of the
Jaina-?gama-Series,
1999 and 2000. Jinad?sa Mahattara's C?r?i on the Nand?-s?tram was included
in Muni Punyavijaya's 1966 edition of the Nand?sutta? published as volume 9
of the Prakrit Text Society Series. ?nandas?gara/S?gar?nanda's edition of
Jinad?sa Mahattara's C?r?i on the ?va?yaka-s?tram was not published by
the ?gamodaya
Samiti, and I do not know of a newer edition than his 1928-1929 one in two
volumes.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 4:42 AM, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I would like to mention two points regarding the ?vet?mbara Jain canonical
> texts ( Anandsagarsuri) at  Jain eLibrary:
>
> 1. I opened one .docx-file: there is no searchable Unicode text but just
> pictures from the manuscripts.
>
> 2. The most important sources are still the C?r?is, since they are written
> in Prakrit without Sanskrit commentary and supposed to be one or two
> centuries earlier written down than Haribhadra's V?ttis (=Anandasagarsuri's
> edition). C?r?is are not included in the Anandasagarsukri-Edition. Or did I
> miss them?
>
> Best
>
> Heiner
>
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180625/ed0c5ada/attachment.htm>

From toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk  Tue Jun 26 08:57:41 2018
From: toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 08:57:41 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
Message-ID: <DF0B5613-BE21-4F9A-938A-8A7855F15079@hum.ku.dk>

Dear all,

I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?

The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya (composed in 499 CE).

I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these instances:

(1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.

(2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
  (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner kindly helped me with the references from this work)
  (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
  (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
  (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)

(3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound word bh?golacakra.

(4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.

(5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).

(6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.

Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of instances I?ve missed.

Many thanks in advance.

With all best wishes,
Toke




From anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de  Tue Jun 26 09:35:39 2018
From: anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de (Anna Aurelia Esposito)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 11:35:39 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Two_courses_on_classical_and_modern_Kannada_at_W=C3=BCrzburg_in_January_2019?=
Message-ID: <20180626113539.Horde.LVLzKSNVhq0oTflKuI6cWcw@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de>

Dear Colleagues,
we invite applications for two intensive courses on Kannada, both  
conducted by Prof. B.A. Viveka Rai at the Chair of Indology, W?rzburg  
University:

"Kannada as a Classical Language",
January 14th until 18th 2019
In this course, besides the classical literary genre Champu, Shatpadi  
poetry will be introduced. Selected major texts of classical Kannada,  
viz. Janna's Yashodhara Charite (chapters 3 and 4) and Raghavanka's  
Harishchandra Kavya (chapters 12 and 13) will be read and studied.  
Participants are expected to possess knowledge of fundamental grammar  
and the Kannada script before attending the course.

"Modern Kannada ? Konversation",
January 21st until 25th 2019
The course is intended for students with basic knowledge of Kannada  
grammar. The focus will be on the developing of speaking abilities.  
Furthermore, the use of contextual vocabulary and grammatical  
structures will be deepened and consolidated. Participants are  
expected to possess knowledge of basic vocabulary, fundamental grammar  
and the Kannada script before attending the course.

Prof. Dr. B.A. Viveka Rai is a retired professor of Kannada Literature  
and Folklore at the University of Mangalore. Since 2010, he is a  
regular guest professor at the Chair of Indology, University of  
W?rzburg, teaching Kannada and classical Kannada, as well as courses  
on the culture and literature of Karnataka.

The fee is 150 Euro per course (including teaching materials). A  
reduction for students and unemployed is possible upon request. For  
any questions and for registration please write to Anna Aurelia  
Esposito (anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de).

We would be grateful if you could widely circulate this call for applications.

Best regards,
Anna Aurelia Esposito


**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universitaet Wuerzburg
Lehrstuhl fuer Indologie / Suedasienkunde
Philosophiegebaude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
Bachgasse 3
97070 Wuerzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3042293
**********
http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito
**********
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2019_KWS_ClassicalKannada.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 113832 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/610f6425/attachment.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2019_KWS_ModernKannada.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 99585 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/610f6425/attachment-0001.pdf>

From Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk  Tue Jun 26 11:38:32 2018
From: Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk (APPLETON Naomi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 11:38:32 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mahabharata scroll online
Message-ID: <9E799D0B-E9C0-41CD-A622-1784A1B5C116@ed.ac.uk>

Dear Colleagues,

You may be interested to see this new digitisation project just completed by the University of Edinburgh library team. It is a fully scrollable high resolution digital version of an 18th century scroll of the Mahabharata, with beautiful illustrations. You can see it at the following link:

https://librarylabs.ed.ac.uk/iiif/uv/?manifest=https://librarylabs.ed.ac.uk/iiif/manifest/mahabharataFinal.json

A blog post on the project giving some more details can be found here: http://libraryblogs.is.ed.ac.uk/diu/2018/06/22/a-stitch-in-time-mahabharata-delivered-online/

With best wishes,
Naomi
--------------------------------
Dr Naomi Appleton
Senior Lecturer in Asian Religions
School of Divinity, University of Edinburgh
naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk<mailto:naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk>
www.naomiappleton.wordpress.com




The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/19e1cba7/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 26 14:01:49 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 07:01:49 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <DF0B5613-BE21-4F9A-938A-8A7855F15079@hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfGW1ufqVURPQHT7U5ZqXEaCwB8nLaX5uDTCELDhdA_7g@mail.gmail.com>

In modern Marathi, the word "bh?gola" is used in further extended meaning
of "geography," and the Marathi books on geography routinely use this
word.  However, the word "bh?ma??al?a" is used in the work of R?mad?sa in
the 17th century: "?????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???."
"Ma??a?a" and "Gola" are also used in Marathi in conjunction with S?rya.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as
> bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or
> ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
>
> The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the
> earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya
> (composed in 499 CE).
>
> I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other
> than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these
> instances:
>
> (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The
> Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and
> the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
>
> (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
>   (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner
> kindly helped me with the references from this work)
>   (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
>   (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
>   (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
>
> (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound
> word bh?golacakra.
>
> (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
>
> (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
>
> (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the
> Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa
> Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
>
> Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola
> outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of
> instances I?ve missed.
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Toke
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/2889ca32/attachment.htm>

From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 26 14:21:46 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 07:21:46 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Continuing my Krishna Verses
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzdBn5pBT0+k1sA34LS2w8ASqSCJjS2Nk1=Vbnm1JfcEDg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing my Krishna Verses:

????????? ?????? ????? ????????? ?????? ?

?????????? ???????? ????? ?????? ???? ???????

When that evil man Duryodhana wanted to arrest you in his court, O Kr???a,
you created thousands of your forms.


?????? ?????: ???????? ??????? ?????????????: ?

????????: ??????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???????

Confused seeing all those Kr???as wandering around him, Duryodhana asked
you: ?Where are you, O Kr???a??


??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????????? ?

??????? ???????????????? ??? ???? ??????? ???????

In the assembly of the hateful Kauravas, Draupad?, abandoned by her
husbands, was tormented, and calls upon you: ?Come running, O Kr???a!?


???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ?

??????? ???: ??????: ? ??? ???????? ???? ???????

?Save me, save me, O Kr???a.  O Lord, you are my brother.  O Kr???a, all my
five husbands are powerless, and they are not protecting me.?


??????????? ??????? ???????????: ???? ??????? ?

????????? ????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ???????

?O Kr???a, please protect your crying sister.  I am waiting for you, O
Brother of the Downtrodden!  Where are you, O Kr???a.?


???????????? ???????????? ???????? ????????????: ?

????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???????

On the holy battlefield of Kuruk?etra, Arjuna, kneeling on the ground near
his chariot, even while watching your cosmic form, cried out: ?Where are
you, O M?dhava.?


??????????? ??????? ??????? ????????: ?

???????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ???????

O Kr???a, though you are near, due to your massive cosmic form you are also
very far.  How do I know, O Kr???a, where you are?


????????? ?????????? ?????? ????: ??????????: ?

????????????? ??????: ???????? ??????? ???????

When your relatives, the Y?davas, fought each other in delusion, you, with
a wounded foot, departed.  Where are you, O Kr???a?


???? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ?????????? ???? ?

??????? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ???????

The whole world is worried whether you did or did not depart.  I am waiting
for your arrival.  Where are you, O Kr???a?


??? ??????? ???????? ????????? ??????? ?

????? ???? ?????????? ?????????????? ???????

If you did go to your heavenly world [Vaiku??ha], please come back quickly.
O Lord, how can the world survive without you?


???? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ?

??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????

If you did not depart, O Kr???a, then become visible to me.  Your
invisibility causes fear in us, O Lord.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/d941f183/attachment.htm>

From toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk  Tue Jun 26 14:40:42 2018
From: toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 14:40:42 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfGW1ufqVURPQHT7U5ZqXEaCwB8nLaX5uDTCELDhdA_7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16006FC1-AAF2-41B2-848F-8C10AF5B9ADE@hum.ku.dk>

Dear Madhav,

Thank you so much for your note. I noticed this usage of bh?gola in Asoke Chatterjee?s ?Padma-pur??a?A Study?:

https://archive.org/stream/PadmaPuranaAStudyAsokeChatterjeeSastri/Padma%20Purana%20A%20Study%20%20Asoke%20Chatterjee%20Sastri%20#page/n31/mode/2up/search/bhugola

The word bh?gola must have the same extended meaning of terrestrial geography in Bengali also.

Whether we can use this meaning of the word in passages from the Padmapur??a is another question.

Best wishes,
Toke



> On Jun 26, 2018, at 16:01, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> In modern Marathi, the word "bh?gola" is used in further extended meaning of "geography," and the Marathi books on geography routinely use this word.  However, the word "bh?ma??al?a" is used in the work of R?mad?sa in the 17th century: "?????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???."  "Ma??a?a" and "Gola" are also used in Marathi in conjunction with S?rya.
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
> [Residence: Campbell, California]
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
> 
> The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya (composed in 499 CE).
> 
> I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these instances:
> 
> (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
> 
> (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
>   (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner kindly helped me with the references from this work)
>   (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
>   (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
>   (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
> 
> (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound word bh?golacakra.
> 
> (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
> 
> (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
> 
> (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
> 
> Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of instances I?ve missed.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> 
> With all best wishes,
> Toke
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Jun 26 14:58:35 2018
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 07:58:35 -0700
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <16006FC1-AAF2-41B2-848F-8C10AF5B9ADE@hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfR45ndtVr5a9rhMQhDJzaLUvJ9SmkcuXK14oNqVtAa-g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Toke,

I have attached the pdf of V?dir?ja's Bh?golavar?anam.  The word bh?gola
also appears in R?pagosv?min's Bhakriras?mr?tasindhu.  That probably goes
back to the use of this word in texts like the Gop?lat?pan? Upani?ad.

Madhv

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:40 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <
toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk> wrote:

> Dear Madhav,
>
> Thank you so much for your note. I noticed this usage of bh?gola in Asoke
> Chatterjee?s ?Padma-pur??a?A Study?:
>
>
> https://archive.org/stream/PadmaPuranaAStudyAsokeChatterjeeSastri/Padma%20Purana%20A%20Study%20%20Asoke%20Chatterjee%20Sastri%20#page/n31/mode/2up/search/bhugola
>
> The word bh?gola must have the same extended meaning of terrestrial
> geography in Bengali also.
>
> Whether we can use this meaning of the word in passages from the
> Padmapur??a is another question.
>
> Best wishes,
> Toke
>
>
>
> > On Jun 26, 2018, at 16:01, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > In modern Marathi, the word "bh?gola" is used in further extended
> meaning of "geography," and the Marathi books on geography routinely use
> this word.  However, the word "bh?ma??al?a" is used in the work of R?mad?sa
> in the 17th century: "?????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???
> ???."  "Ma??a?a" and "Gola" are also used in Marathi in conjunction with
> S?rya.
> >
> > Madhav M. Deshpande
> > Professor Emeritus
> > Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > University of Michigan
> > [Residence: Campbell, California]
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as
> bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or
> ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
> >
> > The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the
> earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya
> (composed in 499 CE).
> >
> > I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other
> than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these
> instances:
> >
> > (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The
> Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and
> the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
> >
> > (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
> >   (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner
> kindly helped me with the references from this work)
> >   (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
> >   (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
> >   (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
> >
> > (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound
> word bh?golacakra.
> >
> > (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
> >
> > (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
> >
> > (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the
> Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa
> Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
> >
> > Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola
> outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of
> instances I?ve missed.
> >
> > Many thanks in advance.
> >
> > With all best wishes,
> > Toke
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/0c007eb0/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Vadiraja-Bhugolavarnanam.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 127851 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/0c007eb0/attachment.pdf>

From emstern1948 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 15:33:22 2018
From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 11:33:22 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <16006FC1-AAF2-41B2-848F-8C10AF5B9ADE@hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <99694A04-42ED-473A-9A34-6F6E1E72641F@gmail.com>

Vyoma?iva? (no later than the first half of the 10th century) says at the end of the karmapad?rtha? section: mah?bh?t?n?? bh?golakadevakul?d?n?? prak?obha?a? tatkampanam | (pad?rthadharmasa?graha??k? 2.268.3 in Gaur?n?tha??stri?s edition).

Elliot Stern
Philadelphia, PA

> On 26 Jun  2018, at 10:40, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> Dear Madhav,
> 
> Thank you so much for your note. I noticed this usage of bh?gola in Asoke Chatterjee?s ?Padma-pur??a?A Study?:
> 
> https://archive.org/stream/PadmaPuranaAStudyAsokeChatterjeeSastri/Padma%20Purana%20A%20Study%20%20Asoke%20Chatterjee%20Sastri%20#page/n31/mode/2up/search/bhugola
> 
> The word bh?gola must have the same extended meaning of terrestrial geography in Bengali also.
> 
> Whether we can use this meaning of the word in passages from the Padmapur??a is another question.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Toke
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 26, 2018, at 16:01, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> In modern Marathi, the word "bh?gola" is used in further extended meaning of "geography," and the Marathi books on geography routinely use this word.  However, the word "bh?ma??al?a" is used in the work of R?mad?sa in the 17th century: "?????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???."  "Ma??a?a" and "Gola" are also used in Marathi in conjunction with S?rya.
>> 
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus
>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan
>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
>> 
>> The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya (composed in 499 CE).
>> 
>> I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these instances:
>> 
>> (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
>> 
>> (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
>>  (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner kindly helped me with the references from this work)
>>  (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
>>  (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
>>  (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
>> 
>> (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound word bh?golacakra.
>> 
>> (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
>> 
>> (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
>> 
>> (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
>> 
>> Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of instances I?ve missed.
>> 
>> Many thanks in advance.
>> 
>> With all best wishes,
>> Toke
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)






From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 23:44:56 2018
From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 18 19:44:56 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <DF0B5613-BE21-4F9A-938A-8A7855F15079@hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <CAPW7aQHEw8Dtc4=8DwCK9Vd3ye0__5n0xeJYR9w53St831muUw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Toke,

A search of the Muktabodha digital library shows bh?gola occurs in
?nandatantra,, ??varapratyabhij?aviv?tivimar?in?, tantracint?ma?i,
dev?rahasya, pura?cary?r?ava, yogav?si??ha, yoginitantra,
?aktisa?gamatantra, saundaryalahar?, and svacchandatantra

Harry Spier

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as
> bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or
> ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
>
> The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the
> earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya
> (composed in 499 CE).
>
> I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other
> than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these
> instances:
>
> (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The
> Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and
> the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
>
> (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
>   (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner
> kindly helped me with the references from this work)
>   (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
>   (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
>   (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
>
> (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound
> word bh?golacakra.
>
> (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
>
> (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
>
> (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the
> Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa
> Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
>
> Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola
> outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of
> instances I?ve missed.
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Toke
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180626/ca164ed5/attachment.htm>

From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 05:27:18 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 18 10:57:18 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPW7aQHEw8Dtc4=8DwCK9Vd3ye0__5n0xeJYR9w53St831muUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eZFKjxmXVCXzKjfUP+nDErBd+eSpCEE6YV2+iLij8HVmA@mail.gmail.com>

Pravesh Vyas on another list posted as:

??????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?

*? ?? ????????? ??????????? ????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????????
??? ? ????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ???????, ????????? ?????????,
????????? ?????, ???????????????????, ????????? ??? ???????*


*aslo see discription of bhugola in -*

The vedic map of the universe(C.V.N.RAO), chapter IX, VII-A


On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 5:14 AM, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Toke,
>
> A search of the Muktabodha digital library shows bh?gola occurs in
> ?nandatantra,, ??varapratyabhij?aviv?tivimar?in?, tantracint?ma?i,
> dev?rahasya, pura?cary?r?ava, yogav?si??ha, yoginitantra,
> ?aktisa?gamatantra, saundaryalahar?, and svacchandatantra
>
> Harry Spier
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as
>> bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or
>> ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
>>
>> The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the
>> earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya
>> (composed in 499 CE).
>>
>> I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other
>> than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these
>> instances:
>>
>> (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The
>> Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and
>> the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
>>
>> (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
>>   (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner
>> kindly helped me with the references from this work)
>>   (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
>>   (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
>>   (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
>>
>> (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound
>> word bh?golacakra.
>>
>> (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
>>
>> (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
>>
>> (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the
>> Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa
>> Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
>>
>> Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola
>> outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of
>> instances I?ve missed.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance.
>>
>> With all best wishes,
>> Toke
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180627/706401c8/attachment.htm>

From toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk  Wed Jun 27 07:06:18 2018
From: toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 18 07:06:18 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_compound_word_bh=C5=ABgola?=
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfR45ndtVr5a9rhMQhDJzaLUvJ9SmkcuXK14oNqVtAa-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20657ED8-2155-4EF6-86DC-3A92B83F16A9@hum.ku.dk>

Dear Madhav,

Thank you for sending me this interesting text. V?dir?ja certainly doesn?t use the word bh?gola in the sense of ?the earth?s sphere,? a spherical earth at the center of the universe. I?m wondering what bh?gola means to him. The text goes beyond a description of terrestrial geography and includes, for example, a description of the region of the stars (nak?atragati; starting in verse 320) and a description of the various layers of the shell of the brahm???a is found toward the end of the text (starting in verse 345).

I wonder if V?dir?ja means the entire brahm???a when he uses the word bh?gola?

I see that V?dir?ja is a 16th-century Dvaita follower of Madhva.

Regarding the occurrences of bh?gola in the works of R?pagosv?min and J?vagosv?min, I agree that they probably go back to earlier uses of the word in texts they rely on. Going further, I wonder if their use of the word, along with the occurrences of the word in the G?tagovinda and the Gop?lat?pan?-upani?ad, can all be explained by the reliance of these texts and authors on the Bh?gavatapur??a (which uses the word five times)?

All best wishes,
Toke



> On Jun 26, 2018, at 16:58, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Toke,
> 
> I have attached the pdf of V?dir?ja's Bh?golavar?anam.  The word bh?gola also appears in R?pagosv?min's Bhakriras?mr?tasindhu.  That probably goes back to the use of this word in texts like the Gop?lat?pan? Upani?ad.
> 
> Madhv
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus
> Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan
> [Residence: Campbell, California]
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:40 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen <toke.knudsen at hum.ku.dk> wrote:
> Dear Madhav,
> 
> Thank you so much for your note. I noticed this usage of bh?gola in Asoke Chatterjee?s ?Padma-pur??a?A Study?:
> 
> https://archive.org/stream/PadmaPuranaAStudyAsokeChatterjeeSastri/Padma%20Purana%20A%20Study%20%20Asoke%20Chatterjee%20Sastri%20#page/n31/mode/2up/search/bhugola
> 
> The word bh?gola must have the same extended meaning of terrestrial geography in Bengali also.
> 
> Whether we can use this meaning of the word in passages from the Padmapur??a is another question.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Toke
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 26, 2018, at 16:01, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > In modern Marathi, the word "bh?gola" is used in further extended meaning of "geography," and the Marathi books on geography routinely use this word.  However, the word "bh?ma??al?a" is used in the work of R?mad?sa in the 17th century: "?????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???."  "Ma??a?a" and "Gola" are also used in Marathi in conjunction with S?rya.
> > 
> > Madhav M. Deshpande
> > Professor Emeritus
> > Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > University of Michigan
> > [Residence: Campbell, California]
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:58 AM Toke Lindegaard Knudsen via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > I?m interested in the compound word bh?gola (and related terms, such as bhuvo golam, dhar?gola, mah?gola, etc.). The word gola means ?ball? or ?globe,? and the compound word bh?gola means ?the earth?s sphere.?
> > 
> > The compound word bh?gola is used in the sense of ?earth-sphere,? ?the earth?s sphere? in astronomical texts since at least the ?ryabha??ya (composed in 499 CE).
> > 
> > I?m looking for uses of this compound word in texts and contexts other than the astronomical tradition of India. So far I?m aware of these instances:
> > 
> > (1) The compound word bh?gola occurs in the some pur??as. The Bh?gavatapur??a uses it five times; the Narasi?hapur??a uses it twice; and the Brahm???apur??a uses the equivalent term mah?gola once.
> > 
> > (2) Four philosophical texts use the compound word:
> >   (a) Mok?opaya (10th century) has dhar?gola and bh?gola (Roland Steiner kindly helped me with the references from this work)
> >   (b) Tattvacint?ma?i (12th century)
> >   (c) Ny?yasudh? (14th century)
> >   (d) Sa?khyas?travivara?a (a late commentary)
> > 
> > (3) The Gop?lat?panyupani?ad (13th century or later) uses the compound word bh?golacakra.
> > 
> > (4) The G?tagovinda (12th century) uses the compound word once.
> > 
> > (5) The Hariva??a uses it in one verse (a star-verse).
> > 
> > (6) Some Bengal Vai??ava works use the compound word; for example, the Gop?lacamp? of J?va Gosv?min (16th century) uses bh?migola once; R?pa Gosv?min (16th century) uses the compound word as well.
> > 
> > Does any of you know of other instances of the compound word bh?gola outside of the astronomical tradition? I?d greatly appreciate learning of instances I?ve missed.
> > 
> > Many thanks in advance.
> > 
> > With all best wishes,
> > Toke
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list
> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> <Va?dira?ja-Bhu?golavarn?anam.pdf>




From Palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Jun 27 21:38:15 2018
From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 18 16:38:15 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9eaEWGdPRW6f-CjCufKApU9db4+HXjevz-tGG50_cdnNSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB11E4AE-2A3C-46BB-B41B-F9BF13A81DF0@aol.com>

Dear Dr. Paturi garu,

Thank you.

I agree with you about the introductory parts of literary texts and how epigraphic information can be used along with them to date them, which will lead to the study of the text in its historical context. (My own 2016 paper entitled, "On the Date of Bhavatra?ta, the Jaimini?ya Commentator,? does the first part based on epigraphy arguing for a date several centuries after the one previously held by scholars. I do not know if anyone has followed up with the analysis of its historical context.)

But what I am looking for is a different issue. We know that epigraphic information is preserved intact for a much longer time than manuscripts of literary texts. In other words, inscriptions often preserve texts as they were inscribed long time ago. On the other hand, literary manuscripts, which need to be periodically copied, often contain variations resulting from hypercorrection, copyist errors, editorial efforts, etc. For instance, in my work on the name for Vai??ava saints, inscriptions preserve the original form ??v?r, while the literary texts have come to use the hypercorrect form, ??v?r. The meanings of the two forms are entirely different. Thus the inscriptions help us to identify the original significance of the appellation of a Vai??ava saint and how the literary form has changed. 

It was information on this type of Indological work that I am after.

Regards,
Palaniappan


> On Jun 19, 2018, at 1:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >  I am not talking about historically locating literary texts.
> 
> Using historical research including epigraphy for the study of literary works did not stop at historically locating literary texts. It lead to an entire branch of literary criticism called historical criticism. 
> 
> Particularly in the case of literatures of Indian languages, where the prefatory/introductory parts provide a very big amount of historical data such as the patron king, his dynasty etc., the data was correlated with the epigraphic information where the king and his dynasty find mention and that in turn lead to the study of the literary work in its historical context. Marxist literary criticism has also been broadly historical criticism only. 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at aol.com <mailto:Palaniappa at aol.com>> wrote:
> Dear Dr. Paturi,
> 
> I am not talking about historically locating literary texts. I have attached some pages from EI 7. They deal with three inscriptions described by three scholars. Each of them uses different literary textual references to explain parts of the inscriptions. But the third inscription also seems to provide an alternate etymology for the name R???rak??a. If the name R???rak??a occurs in a literary text, then Fleet?s discussion would contribute to a different understanding of an item in a literary context based on epigraphic data.
> 
> 
>  
> I hope this clarifies what I am looking for.
> 
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
> 
>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com <mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Tiru Palaniappan avarghal,
>> 
>> I think the situation you mention is just the opposite of reality. Most of the modern , particularly Indological understanding of literary texts has been well informed by history which is mostly based on epigraphy. In fact, we have to identify epigraphists who have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data since their number is not big. 
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 1:34 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> Much of Gregory Schopen?s work on early Buddhism is exemplary in this regard.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Dear Scholars,
>> > 
>> > While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.
>> > 
>> > Thanks in advance
>> > 
>> > Regards,
>> > Palaniappan
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> > http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>  
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>> 
>> 
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>> 
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>> 
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>  
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>  
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>  
>>  
>>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> 
> 
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> 
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
> 
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>  
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>  
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>  
>  
>  



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180627/bfdcb746/attachment.htm>

From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 03:29:28 2018
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 18 08:59:28 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Epigraphy and Indology
In-Reply-To: <EB11E4AE-2A3C-46BB-B41B-F9BF13A81DF0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebuV5Ozmaj9tzqbd8kpOgDT5KX9qLV8Cf6D6NAnRm_JBQ@mail.gmail.com>

The issue you mention belongs to textual criticism and a specific aspect of
it:application of parallel/relevant  epigraphic data to textual criticism.
Using the version of the text so decided for further criticism of various
kinds is the next step.

This  specific aspect of  textual criticism could be rare because the
possibility of portions of text in a manuscript  being found in an
inscription itself is very rare.

But its an interesting area of research.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 3:08 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <
Palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

> Dear Dr. Paturi garu,
>
> Thank you.
>
> I agree with you about the introductory parts of literary texts and how
> epigraphic information can be used along with them to date them, which will
> lead to the study of the text in its historical context. (My own 2016 paper
> entitled, "On the Date of Bhavatra?ta, the Jaimini?ya Commentator,? does
> the first part based on epigraphy arguing for a date several centuries
> after the one previously held by scholars. I do not know if anyone has
> followed up with the analysis of its historical context.)
>
> But what I am looking for is a different issue. We know that epigraphic
> information is preserved intact for a much longer time than manuscripts of
> literary texts. In other words, inscriptions often preserve texts as they
> were inscribed long time ago. On the other hand, literary manuscripts,
> which need to be periodically copied, often contain variations resulting
> from hypercorrection, copyist errors, editorial efforts, etc. For instance,
> in my work on the name for Vai??ava saints, inscriptions preserve the
> original form *??v?r*, while the literary texts have come to use the
> hypercorrect form, *??v?r*. The meanings of the two forms are entirely
> different. Thus the inscriptions help us to identify the original
> significance of the appellation of a Vai??ava saint and how the literary
> form has changed.
>
> It was information on this type of Indological work that I am after.
>
> Regards,
> Palaniappan
>
>
> On Jun 19, 2018, at 1:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >  I am not talking about historically locating literary texts.
>
> Using historical research including epigraphy for the study of literary
> works did not stop at historically locating literary texts. It lead to an
> entire branch of literary criticism called historical criticism.
>
> Particularly in the case of literatures of Indian languages, where the
> prefatory/introductory parts provide a very big amount of historical data
> such as the patron king, his dynasty etc., the data was correlated with the
> epigraphic information where the king and his dynasty find mention and that
> in turn lead to the study of the literary work in its historical context.
> Marxist literary criticism has also been broadly historical criticism only.
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <
> Palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Dr. Paturi,
>>
>> I am not talking about historically locating literary texts. I have
>> attached some pages from EI 7. They deal with three inscriptions described
>> by three scholars. Each of them uses different literary textual references
>> to explain parts of the inscriptions. But the third inscription also seems
>> to provide an alternate etymology for the name R???rak??a. If the name
>> R???rak??a occurs in a literary text, then Fleet?s discussion would
>> contribute to a different understanding of an item in a literary context
>> based on epigraphic data.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this clarifies what I am looking for.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Palaniappan
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Tiru Palaniappan avarghal,
>>
>> I think the situation you mention is just the opposite of reality. Most
>> of the modern , particularly Indological understanding of literary texts
>> has been well informed by history which is mostly based on epigraphy. In
>> fact, we have to identify epigraphists who have been Indologists who
>> used literary texts to inform and correct epigraphic data since their
>> number is not big.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 1:34 AM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Much of Gregory Schopen?s work on early Buddhism is exemplary in this
>>> regard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear Scholars,
>>> >
>>> > While many epigraphists have been Indologists who used literary texts
>>> to inform and correct epigraphic data, I would appreciate references to
>>> scholarly works in the other direction, i.e., the use of epigraphical data
>>> to inform and correct interpretations of literary texts.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks in advance
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Palaniappan
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180628/6be71f55/attachment.htm>

From chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 03:35:24 2018
From: chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com (Deepro Chakraborty)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 18 21:35:24 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Book_needed:_Liebich's_translation_of_the_K=C4=81tantra?=
Message-ID: <CAPNpus1=SVhrbSY3wz6GiwXMLjuFeJvpYyXc5iSHqBDgDE1hQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am looking for the first volume of "Zur Einf?hrung in die
indische einheimische Sprachwissenschaft" (Heidelberg, 1919) that consists
of Bruno Liebich's translation of the K?tantra. I would be very grateful if
anyone can provide me with the text.

Regards,
Deepro


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180627/313c6d19/attachment.htm>

From jemhouben at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 18:38:12 2018
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 18 20:38:12 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Parikh Pravinchandra's Gujaratma
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoBt+c1G87g2cMRjByeYfBmaXVg_VV0_HHzv9k5ZDWUy8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Does anyone have a soft copy of
Parikh Pravinchandra, Gujaratma Brahmithi Nagari sudhino Lipivikasa,
Gujarat University, 1974.
I would be grateful for a link or pdf if available.
Best,
Jan



-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, PSL - Universit? Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180629/b1033461/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Outlook-1506959459.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 7300 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20180629/b1033461/attachment.jpg>