From skarashima at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 02:21:29 2017 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 11:21:29 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Does anyone happen to have data or a searchable file of the *A?gavijj?*? This Jain text is a rich resource of vocabulary of everyday life in Ancient India. It is very useful also for Buddhist textual studies. Thank you very much in advance, Seishi Karashima IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:32:23 2017 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 12:32:23 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Concerning_micch=C4=81_mi_dukka=E1=B8=8Dam?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, In verses of Middle Indic, Skt. *me* becomes *mi* (m.c.), cf. Pischel 1900 ?? 85, 415, 417, 418; BHSG ?? 20.13, 20.63. Schubring (*Die Lehre der Jainas**: nach den alten Quellen dargestellt*, Berlin 1935: W. de Gruyter = *The Doctrine of the Jainas: Described after the Old Sources*, Delhi 1962: Motilal Banarsidass, ? 159 ) wrote *tassa micch? **me** dukka?a?*, and Caillat translated *tassa micch? **me** dukka?a?* as "my fault < has been due> to error" (Caillat *Atonements in the Ancient Ritual of the Jaina Monks*, Ahmedabad 1975, p. 133 = *Les expiations dans le rituel ancien des religieux jaina*, Paris 1965: Boccard, p. 155). I think, therefore, that *mi* in the phrase *micch? mi dukka?am* is a variant of *m?* (< *me*), though probably not m.c. Oberlies (*?va?yaka-Studien, Glossar ausgew?hlter W?rter zu E. Leumanns ,,Die ?va?yaka-Erz?hlungen?*, Stuttgart 1993: F. Steiner, p. 134), however, takes it as ?< *mithy? asmi du?k?tam*?, which is, to my opinion, implausible. See the attachment. The phrases quoted in Oberlies?s glossary clearly demonstrates that the phrase was not interpreted as ?*m? + icch?mi*?. Cf. also Willem B. Boll?e, *Bhadrab?hu B?hat-kalpa-niryukti and Sanghad?sa B?hat-kalpa-bh??ya: Romanized and Metrically Revised Version, Notes from Related Texts and a Selective Glossary*, Stuttgart 1998: F. Steiner, vol. 3 (Beitr?ge zur S?dasienforschung, Bd. 181.3), p. 188. With best wishes, Seishi Karashima IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Oberlies1993Avasyaka-Studienp.134.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 334279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From royce.wiles at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:39:57 2017 From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 03:39:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A PDF of the edited Angavijja can be downloaded from the Jainelibrary (signing up for access is quite quick and totally free). The file is 51 MB btw On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 at 12:23, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > Does anyone happen to have data or a searchable file of the *A?gavijj?*? > This Jain text is a rich resource of vocabulary of everyday life in Ancient > India. It is very useful also for Buddhist textual studies. > > > Thank you very much in advance, > > Seishi Karashima > > IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo > > https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:43:49 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 09:13:49 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gUml2ZXIg4KSV4KS+4KSv4KSV4KWB4KSf4KWA?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Alakendu das, Christophe , Manu Francis, And Palani Appa Thanks every one for the reply with most useful resources. Sorry for delay in replying as I was traveling. Thanks On 29-Aug-2017 1:04 AM, "Krishnaprasad G" wrote: Dear all In Raghuvamsa 6th Canto and Verse 58 or 59 ???????????? ?????? ???? first foot says about Nagapura or Uragapura Mallinatha explains as ??????????????????????????? but this seems to be a mistake as Kanouj is on the North of India , whereas the poet in further verses clearly places it on the south. And on further search I found Arunagirinatha and Narayana in the commentary to the above mentioned verse give the details as the place in the bank of the river ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????... Does any one knows about this river or its modern name kindly inform. I also believe that even Mallinatha has written ??????? as the name is not famous that must be due to ??????????? scribal error occurred Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:45:00 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 09:15:00 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gUml2ZXIg4KSV4KS+4KSv4KSV4KWB4KSf4KWA?= In-Reply-To: <0D83DA54-91D1-42FA-B7B1-81D0123754D3@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Special thanks for the last mail sent by Christophe which is quite promising. On 31-Aug-2017 9:32 PM, "Christophe Vielle" wrote: > There is a K?yaku??/"Kayakudi" river in Tamil Nadu, more precisely in the > Pandya country. See: > > The imperial gazetteer of India, W.W. Hunter, vol. 1, 1885, p. 12: > > https://archive.org/stream/imperialgazette01huntuoft#page/12/mode/2up > > Achandavilt?n. ? Town in Srivilliputtur *t?luk*, Tinnevelli District, > Madras Presidency. Lat. 9 29' n., long. 77 42' e. ; population (1881), 2765 > ; houses, 544. Situated on the left bank of the Kayak?di river. > > http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/achamthavilthan/about.htm > > "Achamthavilthan" , means "the lord has removed the fear from the minds > of the people". There is a small story behind this. > > There is a river in between the two parts of the village. People have to > go to other side of the river to buy Vegetables and other items. Once a > pragrent lady has gone to other side to buy some items. On return, due to > sudden rainfall there was a heavy water in the river and she has prayed to > the Lord Venkatesa Perumal and he made the way for her. Due to this the > people of this village has changed the name as "Achamthavilthan". > > 11km from there, the same river (a tributary of the Vaippar river/stream, > which flows between the Vangai and the Tamraparni) is also linked to the > Madavar Vilagam Vaidyanathar temple in Srivilliputhur (now Virudhunagar > District): > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madavar_Vilagam_Vaidyanathar_temple > http://temple.dinamalar.com/en/new_en.php?id=686 > The lord also said that as the spring healed her wounds and quenched her > thirst, *the stream would be known as Kayakudi Aaru*. Those having a dip > in the river would be free of all fears of life and attain all comforts in > life. > > This should be the river to which refers the South-Indian commentator > Dak?i??vartan?tha (who himself originated from some village called > Mah?rjuna, identified with the "region called Madhy?rjuna which is the > Sanskritised form of the popular name of Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" > [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, according to N. P. Unni). > > Why Dak?i??vartan?tha says that [the supposed Pandyan capital] N?gapuram > is on the border of this river? Maybe because at the time of the late > Pandyas (from the second third of the 14th c. onwards, after the > establishment of the Sultanate of Madurai), their real capital was no > longer in Madurai (even if they never stopped in their inscriptions to > symbolically present themselves as the true rulers of Madurai); "they found > themselves restricted to their more southern possessions" (K.A. Nilakanta > Sastri, The Pandyan Kingdom, 1929, p. 217) in the regions of Srivilliputur, > Tenkasi and Tirunelveli. > > I am not sure that more historical importance has to be ascribed to this > possibly "new" location of N?gapura by Dak?i??vartan?tha, who is a rather > fanciful commentator. > > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > Le 29 ao?t 2017 ? 23:27, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan a > ?crit : > > If the question is really about the river mentioned by a commentator, > there is no river in Tamil Nadu called K?yaku??. If one considers the > possibility that this name is a translation of some Tamil name, one has to > allow for ?losses in translation?. According to Monier Williams, k?ya also > means "assemblage , collection , multitude SaddhP.? This seems to be a > synonym of sa?gha (perhaps referring to the legendary Tamil assembly in > Madurai) or a translation of ?Ta. K??al?, another name of the city of > Madurai. > > If it was related to the city called uraga, there was a discussion in > Indology earlier such as > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/1999-March/016494.html > > I was not able to navigate and get to all the posts from this link. You > may want to do a search on ?uraga? and look at the posts. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > On Aug 29, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > The name of this river is reminding of 'K?yal', the name of the emporium > in the delta of the Tamraparni (Tinnevelly District) referred to by Marco > Polo (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/polo/marco/travels/book3.21.html - > cf. K?lkhoi emporion, Ptolemy Geogr. 7, 1, 10). But the Tamil word k?yal > ('backwater, mouth of a stream") is far from the meaning of "Curve of the > body" (ku?? is found in several words for/names of "curving" rivers). The > T?mrapar?? herself is described by K?lid?sa in 4.50 (53 crit. ed. > Goodall & Isaacson). > This explanation of N?ga(/Uraga)-pura as a city on the border of the K? > yaku?? river in the P???ya country was already made by > Dak?i??vartan?tha (13th-14th c.) in his unpublished *d?pik?* on the > *Raghuva??a* according to N. P. Unni (*Highways and Byways in Sanskrit > Literature, *Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2012, p. 159, who > relies on a KUML transcript-manuscript). It is in this case (like in other) > the source of Aru?agirin?tha (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th > century - the latter who also sometimes uses Dak?i??vartan?tha has > possibly misread his source here or, as you guess, his text has been later > corrupted), himself followed by N?r?ya?a Pa??ita. > The commentary of Vallabhadeva could be useful here, but I have not > Goodall & Isaacson edition at hand. > On his side, the commentator Hem?dri says: urag?khyasyeti kalpit?rtham. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > Le 28 ao?t 2017 ? 21:34, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear all > > In Raghuvamsa 6th Canto and Verse 58 or 59 > ???????????? ?????? ???? first foot says about Nagapura or Uragapura > Mallinatha explains as ??????????????????????????? but this seems to be a > mistake as Kanouj is on the North of India , whereas the poet in further > verses clearly places it on the south. > > And on further search I found Arunagirinatha and Narayana in the > commentary to the above mentioned verse give the details as the place in > the bank of the river ??????? > ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????... > > Does any one knows about this river or its modern name kindly inform. > > I also believe that even Mallinatha has written ??????? as the name is not > famous that must be due to ??????????? scribal error occurred > Thanks > > Correction : > Not ??????? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:47:35 2017 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 12:47:35 +0900 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr. Wiles, Thank you for your prompt reply. I have the file(s). However, they are unsearchable. With best wishes, Seishi Karashima 2017-09-01 12:39 GMT+09:00 Royce Wiles : > A PDF of the edited Angavijja can be downloaded from the Jainelibrary > (signing up for access is quite quick and totally free). The file is 51 MB > btw > > > On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 at 12:23, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> >> Does anyone happen to have data or a searchable file of the *A?gavijj?*? >> This Jain text is a rich resource of vocabulary of everyday life in Ancient >> India. It is very useful also for Buddhist textual studies. >> >> >> Thank you very much in advance, >> >> Seishi Karashima >> >> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >> >> https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima >> >> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From royce.wiles at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 03:53:16 2017 From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 03:53:16 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dr Karashima Yes, you are totally correct I think all of the hundreds of documents in that library are image files with no searchable Devanagari or other text. Regards On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 at 13:48, Seishi Karashima wrote: > Dear Dr. Wiles, > Thank you for your prompt reply. I have the file(s). However, they are > unsearchable. > With best wishes, > Seishi Karashima > > 2017-09-01 12:39 GMT+09:00 Royce Wiles : > >> A PDF of the edited Angavijja can be downloaded from the Jainelibrary >> (signing up for access is quite quick and totally free). The file is 51 MB >> btw >> >> >> On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 at 12:23, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear colleagues, >>> >>> >>> Does anyone happen to have data or a searchable file of the *A?gavijj?*? >>> This Jain text is a rich resource of vocabulary of everyday life in Ancient >>> India. It is very useful also for Buddhist textual studies. >>> >>> >>> Thank you very much in advance, >>> >>> Seishi Karashima >>> >>> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >>> >>> https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima >>> >>> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Sep 1 07:04:17 2017 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 02:04:17 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gUml2ZXIg4KSV4KS+4KSv4KSV4KWB4KSf4KWA?= In-Reply-To: <0D83DA54-91D1-42FA-B7B1-81D0123754D3@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Thank you Christophe. I stand corrected regarding the name K?yakku?i. Here is the location of the village Achamthavilthan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Achamthavilthan,+Tamil+Nadu+626137,+India/@9.3406345,77.5745443,13.98z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3b06c40d59b23ce7:0xefcca7727b8ad986!8m2!3d9.4368458!4d77.6643502 . The river K?yakku?i is not marked in the map, even at maximum zooming. (In contrast, one can see Vaippar can be seen further to the south.) But the satellite map shows a possible dry bed with potential water flows when there is heavy rain on the mountains to the west of Rajapalaiyam. Also see http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=9.466122&lon=77.574162&z=15&m=b&show=/19005235/?????????-??? . It is really surprising that such an insignificant river (probably unknown to people from outside the immediate area) is mentioned by a person from a far-away Tiruvi?aimarut?r. (One source says Dak?i??vartan?tha is from Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumpak??am. See https://books.google.com/books?id=70uvBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT37&lpg=PT37&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=fJgek3fYnA&sig=IuQZUkdGSskYUIqSsIMN43p3VXU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXnqHGtYPWAhWj6oMKHRveCIIQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) If the name K?yakku?i is indeed mentioned in the commentary, and if Dak?i??vartan?tha?s place is still open, a possible candidate is Tiruppu?aimarut?r, the southern ?arjuna? location. (See https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) One source dates Dak?i??vartan?tha to 12th century. See https://books.google.com/books?id=9P3lDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=6hFyoz8A9b&sig=XbHCimb93_96S5HpUkD63FXetXk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqvSko4PWAhUB7oMKHf5OBUcQ6AEIRzAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false . In the 12th century, the P???iyas were in Madurai. Even if Dak?i??vartan?tha lived in the 14th or 15th century, there was no headquarters of the P???iyas on the K?yakku?i river. Two places associated with the P???iyas were Ukkira? K???ai (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) and Te?k?ci (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) Both are nowhere near the K?yakku?i river. I think this K?yakku?i river is a red herring as far as identifying Uraga is concerned. Regards, Palaniappan > On Aug 31, 2017, at 11:02 AM, Christophe Vielle wrote: > > There is a K?yaku??/"Kayakudi" river in Tamil Nadu, more precisely in the Pandya country. See: > > The imperial gazetteer of India, W.W. Hunter, vol. 1, 1885, p. 12: > https://archive.org/stream/imperialgazette01huntuoft#page/12/mode/2up > Achandavilt?n. ? Town in Srivilliputtur t?luk, Tinnevelli District, Madras Presidency. Lat. 9 29' n., long. 77 42' e. ; population (1881), 2765 ; houses, 544. Situated on the left bank of the Kayak?di river. > > http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/achamthavilthan/about.htm > "Achamthavilthan" , means "the lord has removed the fear from the minds of the people". There is a small story behind this. > > There is a river in between the two parts of the village. People have to go to other side of the river to buy Vegetables and other items. Once a pragrent lady has gone to other side to buy some items. On return, due to sudden rainfall there was a heavy water in the river and she has prayed to the Lord Venkatesa Perumal and he made the way for her. Due to this the people of this village has changed the name as "Achamthavilthan". > > 11km from there, the same river (a tributary of the Vaippar river/stream, which flows between the Vangai and the Tamraparni) is also linked to the Madavar Vilagam Vaidyanathar temple in Srivilliputhur (now Virudhunagar District): > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madavar_Vilagam_Vaidyanathar_temple > http://temple.dinamalar.com/en/new_en.php?id=686 > The lord also said that as the spring healed her wounds and quenched her thirst, the stream would be known as Kayakudi Aaru. Those having a dip in the river would be free of all fears of life and attain all comforts in life. > > This should be the river to which refers the South-Indian commentator Dak?i??vartan?tha (who himself originated from some village called Mah?rjuna, identified with the "region called Madhy?rjuna which is the Sanskritised form of the popular name of Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, according to N. P. Unni). > > Why Dak?i??vartan?tha says that [the supposed Pandyan capital] N?gapuram is on the border of this river? Maybe because at the time of the late Pandyas (from the second third of the 14th c. onwards, after the establishment of the Sultanate of Madurai), their real capital was no longer in Madurai (even if they never stopped in their inscriptions to symbolically present themselves as the true rulers of Madurai); "they found themselves restricted to their more southern possessions" (K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, The Pandyan Kingdom, 1929, p. 217) in the regions of Srivilliputur, Tenkasi and Tirunelveli. > > I am not sure that more historical importance has to be ascribed to this possibly "new" location of N?gapura by Dak?i??vartan?tha, who is a rather fanciful commentator. > > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > Le 29 ao?t 2017 ? 23:27, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > a ?crit : > >> If the question is really about the river mentioned by a commentator, there is no river in Tamil Nadu called K?yaku??. If one considers the possibility that this name is a translation of some Tamil name, one has to allow for ?losses in translation?. According to Monier Williams, k?ya also means "assemblage , collection , multitude SaddhP.? This seems to be a synonym of sa?gha (perhaps referring to the legendary Tamil assembly in Madurai) or a translation of ?Ta. K??al?, another name of the city of Madurai. >> >> If it was related to the city called uraga, there was a discussion in Indology earlier such as >> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1999-March/016494.html >> >> I was not able to navigate and get to all the posts from this link. You may want to do a search on ?uraga? and look at the posts. >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >>> On Aug 29, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>> >>> The name of this river is reminding of 'K?yal', the name of the emporium in the delta of the Tamraparni (Tinnevelly District) referred to by Marco Polo (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/polo/marco/travels/book3.21.html - cf. K?lkhoi emporion, Ptolemy Geogr. 7, 1, 10). But the Tamil word k?yal ('backwater, mouth of a stream") is far from the meaning of "Curve of the body" (ku?? is found in several words for/names of "curving" rivers). The T?mrapar?? herself is described by K?lid?sa in 4.50 (53 crit. ed. Goodall & Isaacson). >>> This explanation of N?ga(/Uraga)-pura as a city on the border of the K?yaku?? river in the P???ya country was already made by Dak?i??vartan?tha (13th-14th c.) in his unpublished d?pik? on the Raghuva??a according to N. P. Unni (Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2012, p. 159, who relies on a KUML transcript-manuscript). It is in this case (like in other) the source of Aru?agirin?tha (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century - the latter who also sometimes uses Dak?i??vartan?tha has possibly misread his source here or, as you guess, his text has been later corrupted), himself followed by N?r?ya?a Pa??ita. >>> The commentary of Vallabhadeva could be useful here, but I have not Goodall & Isaacson edition at hand. >>> On his side, the commentator Hem?dri says: urag?khyasyeti kalpit?rtham. >>> Best wishes, >>> Christophe Vielle >>> >>> Le 28 ao?t 2017 ? 21:34, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : >>> >>>> Dear all >>>> >>>> In Raghuvamsa 6th Canto and Verse 58 or 59 >>>> ???????????? ?????? ???? first foot says about Nagapura or Uragapura >>>> Mallinatha explains as ??????????????????????????? but this seems to be a mistake as Kanouj is on the North of India , whereas the poet in further verses clearly places it on the south. >>>> >>>> And on further search I found Arunagirinatha and Narayana in the commentary to the above mentioned verse give the details as the place in the bank of the river ??????? >>>> ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????... >>>> >>>> Does any one knows about this river or its modern name kindly inform. >>>> >>>> I also believe that even Mallinatha has written ??????? as the name is not famous that must be due to ??????????? scribal error occurred >>>> Thanks >>> Correction : >>> Not ??????? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> ??????????????????? >>> Christophe Vielle >>> Louvain-la-Neuve >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Sep 1 10:24:35 2017 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 06:24:35 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Link for scans of old Marathi publications Message-ID: Dear Friends, Recently I came across this amazing collection of scans of nearly one thousand older (and some not so old) Marathi publications on archive.org. May be of interest to some of you. https://archive.org/details/BharatvarshiyMadhyayuginCharitrakoshCropped Madhav Deshpande -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Sep 1 10:25:58 2017 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 06:25:58 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Concerning_micch=C4=81_mi_dukka=E1=B8=8Dam?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Professor Karashima, for these references. Madhav Deshpande On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > In verses of Middle Indic, Skt. *me* becomes *mi* (m.c.), cf. Pischel 1900 > ?? 85, 415, 417, 418; BHSG ?? 20.13, 20.63. > > > Schubring (*Die Lehre der Jainas**: nach den alten Quellen dargestellt*, > Berlin 1935: W. de Gruyter = *The Doctrine of the Jainas: Described > after the Old Sources*, Delhi 1962: Motilal Banarsidass, ? 159 ) wrote *tassa > micch? **me** dukka?a?*, and Caillat translated *tassa micch? **me** > dukka?a?* as "my fault < has been due> to error" (Caillat *Atonements in > the Ancient Ritual of the Jaina Monks*, Ahmedabad 1975, p. 133 = *Les > expiations dans le rituel ancien des religieux jaina*, Paris 1965: > Boccard, p. 155). > > > I think, therefore, that *mi* in the phrase *micch? mi dukka?am* is a > variant of *m?* (< *me*), though probably not m.c. > > > Oberlies (*?va?yaka-Studien, Glossar ausgew?hlter W?rter zu E. Leumanns > ,,Die ?va?yaka-Erz?hlungen?*, Stuttgart 1993: F. Steiner, p. 134), > however, takes it as ?< *mithy? asmi du?k?tam*?, which is, to my opinion, > implausible. See the attachment. > > > The phrases quoted in Oberlies?s glossary clearly demonstrates that the > phrase was not interpreted as ?*m? + icch?mi*?. > > > Cf. also Willem B. Boll?e, *Bhadrab?hu B?hat-kalpa-niryukti and > Sanghad?sa B?hat-kalpa-bh??ya: Romanized and Metrically Revised Version, > Notes from Related Texts and a Selective Glossary*, Stuttgart 1998: F. > Steiner, vol. 3 (Beitr?ge zur S?dasienforschung, Bd. 181.3), p. 188. > > > With best wishes, > > Seishi Karashima > > IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo > > https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Fri Sep 1 13:17:17 2017 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 15:17:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: A Hindu Apology for Caste and Untouchability Message-ID: Forwarded at the request of Professor Anantanand Rambachan. ?Kind regards, WS? ? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anantanand Rambachan Date: 2017-08-31 23:15 GMT+02:00 Subject: [RISA-L LIST] A Hindu Apology for Caste and Untouchability To: RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST Colleagues, I wanted to share this statement on caste and untouchability recently released by Sadhana (www.sadhana.org): https://actionnetwork.org/forms/926ebef6652be71fe435d6abeaa5 857df9629f1f?hash=c2f246c036a5e27ab02877b21f3853e9 Anantanand -- *Anantanand Rambachan* Professor of Religion [image: St. Olaf College] *Office: 507 786 3080* | *Mobile: 952 913 5745* 1520 St. Olaf Avenue Northfield, MN 55057 USA *A Hindu Theology of Liberation*: *Not-Two is Not One (http://www.sunypress.edu/p-5983-a-hindu-theology-of-liberation.aspx *) _______________________________________________ PLEASE post to this list ONLY from an email account that has been subscribed. RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyler.g.neill at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 13:47:53 2017 From: tyler.g.neill at gmail.com (Tyler Neill) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 15:47:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Reproduction of manuscripts is now FREE and publicly shareable in Italy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, It may interest you to hear that Italy has just relaxed the rules regarding photo-reproduction of material in its libraries. See copied message below, containing a short summary by a colleague of mine at Leipzig and also (attached) an official communication (in Italian) from the association "Fotografie Libere per i Beni Culturali", namely written by A. Brugnoli, S. Gardini, and M. Modolo. The latter contains the text of the decree as well. Best regards, Tyler Neill ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: chiarapalladino1 at gmail.com Date: Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 2:10 PM Subject: Reproduction of manuscripts is now FREE and publicly shareable in Italy To: Perseus Digital Library Since yesterday, you are explicitly allowed to take your own photographs, as many as you want, from material in Italian Libraries that is free of Copyright, with special regard to manuscripts, whose reproduction was subject, as we all know, to the payment of fees. You will also be able to share those reproductions in any non-profit context, not just "for personal study", without being subject to additional fees. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DAL_29_AGOSTO_2017_FOTOGRAFIE_LIBERE_IN.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 390636 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Fri Sep 1 19:43:34 2017 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 12:43:34 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A Hindu Apology for Caste and Untouchability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1EF29234-78E6-4E0C-B525-9D887B712E40@earthlink.net> Excellent article from Sadhana (www.sadhana.org )! Thank you for sharing! The 'caste and untouchability? issue is monstrous in S.India. Numerous families are devastated. I hope people get enlightened soon. How long do we have to wait for the Kalki-avatar??? Thanks and regards, rajam > On Sep 1, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Forwarded at the request of Professor Anantanand Rambachan. > > ?Kind regards, WS? > ? > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anantanand Rambachan > > Date: 2017-08-31 23:15 GMT+02:00 > Subject: [RISA-L LIST] A Hindu Apology for Caste and Untouchability > To: RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST > > > > Colleagues, > > I wanted to share this statement on caste and untouchability recently released by Sadhana (www.sadhana.org ): > > https://actionnetwork.org/forms/926ebef6652be71fe435d6abeaa5857df9629f1f?hash=c2f246c036a5e27ab02877b21f3853e9 > > Anantanand > > -- > Anantanand Rambachan > Professor of Religion > > Office: 507 786 3080 | Mobile: 952 913 5745 > 1520 St. Olaf Avenue Northfield, MN 55057 USA > > A Hindu Theology of Liberation: Not-Two is Not One (http://www.sunypress.edu/p-5983-a-hindu-theology-of-liberation.aspx ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > PLEASE post to this list ONLY from an email account that has been subscribed. > > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu > https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 20:57:47 2017 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 21:57:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] free online Sanskrit course Message-ID: Dear all, Starting in October, I will be offering a free online Sanskrit course, using my textbook that is now back on the shelves in its second imprint. The course will be fairly bare-bones (I will set a pace, provide the necessary printed and online resources, and post weekly quizzes, followed by their answer keys; a discussion group on Facebook, moderated by me and a few others, will be the main forum for people to ask their questions). There will be no official grades or academic credit of any kind. But if you happen to know anyone who would like to learn Sanskrit simply for the love of the language, would you please share the attached course blurb with them? Thank you, and all the best, Antonia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CISSanskritcourse-detailsandinvitation.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 230981 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hr at ivs.edu Sat Sep 2 03:17:17 2017 From: hr at ivs.edu (HR) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 17 20:17:17 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] free online Sanskrit course In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1504322282-6527585.22897696.fv823GXle013096@rs153.luxsci.com> Thank you Antonia for your noble service. I spread the word in my circle. Best, Howard > On Sep 1, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear all, > > Starting in October, I will be offering a free online Sanskrit course, using my textbook that is now back on the shelves in its second imprint. > > The course will be fairly bare-bones (I will set a pace, provide the necessary printed and online resources, and post weekly quizzes, followed by their answer keys; a discussion group on Facebook, moderated by me and a few others, will be the main forum for people to ask their questions). There will be no official grades or academic credit of any kind. But if you happen to know anyone who would like to learn Sanskrit simply for the love of the language, would you please share the attached course blurb with them? > > Thank you, > and all the best, > Antonia > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpjain1903 at gmail.com Sat Sep 2 11:20:07 2017 From: rpjain1903 at gmail.com (R. P. Jain) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 17 16:50:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] AN INDIAN RATIONAL THEOLOGY & MYTHOLOGY OF BRAHMA Message-ID: To The Members Motilal Banarsidass (MLBD) has got the reprinting rights of the following two titles : - An Indian Rational Theology : Introduction to Udayana's Nyayakusumanjali / George Chemparathy - Mythology of Brahma / Greg Bailey They need a copy of the above book along with the PDF file. In case any member has a copy in his / her library, please send it to Motilal. Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41 UA Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007 (India) Tel: +91 11 23851985 / 23858335 Email: mlbd at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com After printing MLBD will send 3 copies as complimentary in lieu of the original copy to the member. Looking forward to hearing from you soon. Sincerely Rajeev Jain --------------------------- "Ananda" Villa # 7, 10 A, Rajniwas Marg Civil Lines Delhi - 110 054 (India) ----------------------------- Your enemy is your greatest teacher ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Sat Sep 2 17:11:41 2017 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 17 13:11:41 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a small matter Message-ID: I recently had an enquiry about a short passage from the Shatapatha Brahmana. The passage in question is 7.4.1.1. Both Titus and Gretil transliterate as follows: ?tmano v? etamadhijanayati y?d???dva j?yate The "va" following the "y?d???d" is curious, and the several printed editions (Weber, etc) I checked (and asked colleagues to check...thanks to Steven Lindquist and Fred Smith) have "vai" Is there a convention I am missing, or is this an error? Thanks Herman Tull -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Sat Sep 2 21:20:36 2017 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 17 23:20:36 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Gasth=C3=B6rerin?= Message-ID: Liebe Tepke, ich habe eine Gasth?rerin, und sie m?chte wissen, ob sie eine Einwilligung ben?tigt. Ich habe keine Ahnung davon. Wissen Sie was dar?ber? Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Victor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Sat Sep 2 21:33:16 2017 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 17 17:33:16 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a small matter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2B28D657-706F-4972-9961-D2D213370B7F@gmail.com> Most likely this is an error. The two electronic versions seem to be related. Titus: ?atapatha-Br?hma?a (M?dhyandina recension) Books 1-11, 13-14: Data entry under the guidance of W.P. Lehmann (Austin, Texas) by H.S. Ananthanarayana (Hyderabad); adaptation by J.R. Gardner (Iowa) Gretil: Satapatha-Brahmana, Madhyamdina recension (input by John Robert Gardner) Elliot > On 02 Sep 2017, at 13:11, Herman Tull via INDOLOGY wrote: > > I recently had an enquiry about a short passage from the Shatapatha Brahmana. The passage in question is 7.4.1.1. > > Both Titus and Gretil transliterate as follows: > > ?tmano v? etamadhijanayati y?d???dva j?yate > > The "va" following the "y?d???d" is curious, and the several printed editions (Weber, etc) I checked (and asked colleagues to check...thanks to Steven Lindquist and Fred Smith) have "vai" > > Is there a convention I am missing, or is this an error? > > Thanks > > Herman Tull > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: quest.gif Type: image/gif Size: 882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Sat Sep 2 21:42:48 2017 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 17 23:42:48 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Gasth=C3=B6rerin?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies, that message was intended for indologie at uni-hamburg.de, not indology at list.indology.info. All the Best, Victor 2017-09-02 23:20 GMT+02:00 victor davella : > Liebe Tepke, > > ich habe eine Gasth?rerin, und sie m?chte wissen, ob sie eine Einwilligung > ben?tigt. Ich habe keine Ahnung davon. Wissen Sie was dar?ber? > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Victor > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Sep 3 07:26:01 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 17 01:26:01 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember once David Pingree told me that the Angavijja was "a list of everything in the universe. Literally every item." With his wry, amused smile. ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 31 August 2017 at 20:21, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > > Does anyone happen to have data or a searchable file of the *A?gavijj?*? > This Jain text is a rich resource of vocabulary of everyday life in Ancient > India. It is very useful also for Buddhist textual studies. > > > Thank you very much in advance, > > Seishi Karashima > > IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo > > https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima > > http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cezarygalewicz at yahoo.com Sun Sep 3 16:30:27 2017 From: cezarygalewicz at yahoo.com (Cezary Galewicz) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 17 16:30:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] book query: Jesuits Lutherans and Printing Press In-Reply-To: <486057362.2135240.1504456227980.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486057362.2135240.1504456227980@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Colleagues,I've been trying in vain to get access to a rather rare book: Katharine S. Dielh, Jesuits, Lutherans and Printing Press in South India (Printers and Printing in the East Indies, vol. III), 1996. I would appreciate if anybody could share a pdf or otherwise help... Cezary Galewicz Cezary GalewiczCentre for Comparative Studies of CivilizationsJagiellonian UniversityGrodzka 5231-044 Krakow? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sun Sep 3 17:08:28 2017 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 17 10:08:28 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] book query: Jesuits Lutherans and Printing Press In-Reply-To: <486057362.2135240.1504456227980@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <888D4C13-B76C-47E7-B61E-47CCF8AAE8B5@earthlink.net> A friend in Germany (Dr. Subhashini) also has been searching for this book and sent me a link to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Jesuits-Lutherans-Printing-Printers-Indies/dp/0892413921 > On Sep 3, 2017, at 9:30 AM, Cezary Galewicz via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > I've been trying in vain to get access to a rather rare book: Katharine S. Dielh, Jesuits, Lutherans and Printing Press in South India (Printers and Printing in the East Indies, vol. III), 1996. I would appreciate if anybody could share a pdf or otherwise help... > > Cezary Galewicz > > > Cezary Galewicz > Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilizations > Jagiellonian University > Grodzka 52 > 31-044 Krakow > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Sun Sep 3 18:52:31 2017 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 17 20:52:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] book query: Jesuits Lutherans and Printing Press In-Reply-To: <486057362.2135240.1504456227980@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20170903205231.5b75abf3d4a5994159a2ae28@ff.cuni.cz> Dear Cezary, what's the source of your reference? I think that this book has never been published. Katharine Smith Diehl (not Dielh) died in 1989. She was able to prepare for publication only the first volume of her work (planned for nine volumes): http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/233927351. All her mss are held in the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center (Uni of Texas), you should probably contact this Center and ask them. I have seen a few references to other volumes, but they were always quoting a typewritten material, not a printed book. Best, Lubomir On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 16:30:27 +0000 (UTC) Cezary Galewicz via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Colleagues,I've been trying in vain to get access to a rather rare book: Katharine S. Dielh, Jesuits, Lutherans and Printing Press in South India (Printers and Printing in the East Indies, vol. III), 1996. I would appreciate if anybody could share a pdf or otherwise help... > Cezary Galewicz > > Cezary GalewiczCentre for Comparative Studies of CivilizationsJagiellonian UniversityGrodzka 5231-044 Krakow? From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Sun Sep 3 23:16:38 2017 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 01:16:38 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gita 13.6 In-Reply-To: <1503370322-1905389.2548026.fv7M2paIQ009550@rs153.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <59AC8D56.4050601@uni-muenchen.de> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 02:06:28 2017 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 17 20:06:28 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to remember Dominik posting a link to an OCR program for devanagari in the last year. If so, could this be used to OCR the devanagari text and make a searchable file? Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I remember once David Pingree told me that the Angavijja was "a list of > everything in the universe. Literally every item." With his wry, amused > smile. > > ? > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > ?,? > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > ?,? > > Department of History and Classics > > ?,? > University of Alberta, Canada > ?.? > > South Asia at the U of A: > > ?sas.ualberta.ca? > ?? > > > On 31 August 2017 at 20:21, Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> >> Does anyone happen to have data or a searchable file of the *A?gavijj?*? >> This Jain text is a rich resource of vocabulary of everyday life in Ancient >> India. It is very useful also for Buddhist textual studies. >> >> >> Thank you very much in advance, >> >> Seishi Karashima >> >> IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo >> >> https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima >> >> http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 04:25:57 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 09:55:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gita 13.6 In-Reply-To: <59AC8D56.4050601@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: Can we have a copy of the article? On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:46 AM, Robert Zydenbos via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > As for 'elsewhere', I can refer to my article ?Is Krishna Seen Or Not? > Madhva?ca?rya on Bhagavadgi?ta? 12:1.? Journal of Vaisnava Studies 5.3 > (1997), pp. 55-63. For Madhva and the Dvaita tradition, avyakta is > prak?ti, in agreement with S??khya-Yoga terminology. > > RZ > > > HR via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Scholars, > > I would appreciate insights on how we might understand the use of ?avyakta,? the ?unmanifest? in the Gita 13.6 and elsewhere as a type of element or dimension of this world. > > Thanks, > Howard > > > > > -- > > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Institute of Indology and Tibetology > Department of Asian Studies > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich ? LMU) > Germany > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 > Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 > PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) public key: https://zydenbos.userweb.mwn.de/zydenbos-uni-muenchen-pgp-public-key.asc > Telegram Messenger: @zydenbos > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Sep 4 07:53:11 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 07:53:11 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_A=E1=B9=85gavijj=C4=81?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C62091@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear David, I believe that you are referring to the SanskritOCR developed by Oliver Hellwig: http://www.indsenz.com/int/index.php I have used this and it is quite accurate when the source -- a scanned pdf of a devanagari text -- is neat and clean. But even when it is "quite accurate" the results must be checked manually and, in the case of large texts, this is of course tedious. Hellwig's work has been remarkable, however -- it was not many years ago that I was told by an individual prominently involved in the digitalization of South Asia texts that devanagari OCR was well nigh impossible owing to the manner in which the characters are connected by a continuous upper line. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Sep 4 10:31:53 2017 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 06:31:53 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit Faculty position at the University of Michigan Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please take a look at the attached advertisement for a tenured/tenuretrack faculty position in Sanskrit at the University of Michigan, and share it with all interested individuals. Since I have retired from the University of Michigan recently, no correspondence regarding this position should be sent to me personally. With best wishes, Madhav Deshpande -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SanskritLiteratureAd.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 42835 bytes Desc: not available URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Sep 4 11:04:19 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 13:04:19 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gUml2ZXIg4KSV4KS+4KSv4KSV4KWB4KSf4KWA?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Palaniappan, the date (which can be estimated only relatively) and place of Dak?i??vartan?tha are indeed still open to discussion. I take the opportunity of your remark for reviewing my notes on the question. The dating to the 12th century given by Pollock (World Philology, p. 118 - https://books.google.be/books?hl=fr&id=lbMyBQAAQBAJ&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&q=Daksinavartanatha#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) is not really supported (there is a reference, ibid. fn. 18 p. 353, to Unni 1987 [see below], but the latter pp. 40-41 proposes a dating from the 13th to the 15th c.). The place Tiruvala?cu?i [Thiruvalanjuli, also near Kumbakonam] given by Ajay K. Rao 2014 (your reference) was suggested by T. Ga?apati ??str? in his preface to the 1919 Trivandrum Sanskrit Series (no. 64) edition of the Meghasa?de?a with Dak?i??vartan?tha's Prad?pa (following the name of ?iva called Dak?i??vartan?tha in the sanctuary there, see: http://www.archive.org/details/MeghadutaWithTheCommentaryOfDaksinavartanatha ). Unithiri 1976 (see below) suggests another Tiruvala?cu?i? in Kerala (Thrissur District), with the idea that D would be the Sanskritised form of a Malayalam place-name [Tiru +] "vala?cuzhi (dak?i?a = valam, 'right' + ?varta = cuzhi, 'whirlpool')". (Unni 1987, pp. 34-38, in discussing these suggestions even adds a third, Keralan also, Tiruvala?cu?i place, but he does not accept the Keralan ones and keeps the idea of the name Dak?i??vartan?tha as referring to the peculiar name of ?iva in the Tamil tradition linked to Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumbakonam). As we have seen, D gives the Sanskrit name of his place of origin (which could correspond to Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, and thus close to the shrine of his name-deity according to N. P. Unni), for which you make now another suggestion of interpretation (Tiruppu?aimarut?r [Thiruppudaimaruthur], Ambasamudram taluk in Thirunelveli Distr. - http://tnmurals.org/Tiruppudaimaruduur.html : mural paintings in the temple). As for the relative dating, according to T. Ga?apati ??str? the date of D must be between the 12th c. (since D quotes the lexicon of Ke?avasv?min [ed. TSS 23, 29, 31, 1913] dated by Ga?apati ??str? to the 12th c. - but this lexicon belongs probably rather to the 2nd part of the 13th c. according to Madhukar M. Patkar, History of Sanskrit Lexicography, 1981, p. 97) and Aru?agirin?tha's time (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century). Examining the peculiar relationships between Dak?i??vartan?tha's Prad?pa and P?r?asarasvat?'s Vidyullat?, S.K. De (intr. to his critical ed. of the poem, 1957, p. xxxi fn. 92 ; cf. also 1957 below, pp. 51-52) presumes that D is prior to P. This is also the opinion of Unni with a few more arguments (1987, pp. 52-53, cf. 2016 below). But Unithiri, who has made a closer comparison between the two (1976: "It is to be noticed that in almost all cases [when D differs from P in readings] D[a]k[?i??vartan?tha] notes the variant readings which are those of P[?r?a]s[arasvat?] and in most cases those of P[a]r[ame?va] also, indicating thereby that Dk corrects the traditionally accepted readings for his own reasons" ? about 20 such occurrences) has suggested the reverse (1975, p. viii; cf. also Iyer 1965, stressing on the differences between the Kerala textual tradition of P?r?asarasvat?/Parame?vara, on the one hand, and the one of Dak?i??vartan?tha/Mallin?tha on the other). Having myself several reasons to place P in the first part of the 14th c. (he must be close to Payy?r Bha??a Parame?vara 'I', fl. c. 1330, whose Sumanorama?? criticizes the Vidyullat? in a manner letting think that the two authors were very near in time and place), it would mean that D would belong either to to middle/second part of the 14th c. (close to both Mallin?tha and Aru?agirin?tha ? there is some connexion between them by their respective choices of names: A and M inspired by/having studied with D?) if he comes after, or to 2nd part of the 13th c. if he come before. I am at the moment of my examination rather inclined to place D after P. References: ? K. Chattopadhyaya, ?Dak?i??vartan?tha and his Commentary on the Meghad?ta?, Mahamahopadhyaya Kuppuswami Sastri Commemoration Volume [C. Kunhan Raja ed.], Madras [c. 1935], pp. 17-24: https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.201063/2015.201063.Kuppuswami-Sastri#page/n27/mode/2up ? S. K. De, ?Some Commentators on the Meghad?ta?, Annals of Oriental Research Institute (Madras), Centenary Number 13, 1957, (Sanskrit Section), pp. 49-64 https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.97583/2015.97583.Annals-Of-Oriental-Research--University-Of-Madrascentenary-Numbervol13#page/n259/mode/2up ? S. Venkitasubramonia Iyer, ?The Meghasande?a tradition in Kerala?, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 3/1, 1965, pp. 60-68. ? N.V.P Unithiri, ?Dak?i??vartan?tha?s commentary on Meghasa?de?a?, Journal of the Kerala University Oriental Research Institute & Manuscripts Library 20/1, 1975, pp. 13-20; Id. ?Dak?i??vartan?tha ? commentator on K?lid?sa?s poems: his provenance?, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 14, 1976, pp. 216-222; ? N.P. Unni, Meghasande?a (an assessment from the South), Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1987, pp. 33-65; Id., Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi : New Bharatiya Book, 2012, vol. 1, pp. 181-191, 232-238 [retyping of the previous one; on Dak?i??vartan?tha, same pages as in 1987 also in N.P. Unni, Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa with the commentaries Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, Vidyullat? of P?r?asarasvat?, Sumanorama?? of Parame?vara, edited with an elaborate introduction, Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1987, again retyped in Id. ed. Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa (text and translation) with Twelves Sanskrit Commentaries, Veliyanad: Chinmaya International Foundation, 2016, pp. 42-69 ? the text of the introduction of Unni in Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa with the Commentary Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, Delhi : Nag Publishers, 1984, is slightly different, sometimes more extended, than the 1987 version - the latter can be seen as the "revised" one since it is the one which has been thereafter reproduced; I couldn't check Unni's article [probably = the text of the 1984 ed. intr.] "Dak?i??vartan?tha: A commentator of K?lid?sa", Sri Jagannatha Jyothi - Journal of Indology 1/2 (Puri), 1984, pp. 94-106). P.S. 1. the wrong statement made by T. Ga?apati ??str? (1919) that Mallin?tha quotes "Aru??chalan?tha" (= Aru?agirin?tha) ? the n?tha to whom both Mallin?tha and Aru?agirin?tha refer being samely Dak?i??vartan?tha only ? is slavishly repeated by De 1957, p. 51, and should be ignored. 2. Here is the available portion of the text of Dak?i??vartan?tha's D?pik? on Raghuva??a 6.59 as quoted by Unni 1984, p. 10, 1987, p. 37 (2016, p. 44): p???yade?e k?yaku??ti k?pi nad? vidyate | 3. Editions of Dak?i??vartan?tha's D?pik?s on both the Raghuva??a and the Kum?rasambhava is something reallly needed: Unni is himself relying on, respectively, the KUML transcripts T.220 and T.216 (the first one was lost when I once tried to consult it). Best wishes, Christophe Le 1 sept. 2017 ? 09:04, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan a ?crit : > Thank you Christophe. I stand corrected regarding the name K?yakku?i. Here is the location of the village Achamthavilthan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Achamthavilthan,+Tamil+Nadu+626137,+India/@9.3406345,77.5745443,13.98z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3b06c40d59b23ce7:0xefcca7727b8ad986!8m2!3d9.4368458!4d77.6643502. > > The river K?yakku?i is not marked in the map, even at maximum zooming. (In contrast, one can see Vaippar can be seen further to the south.) But the satellite map shows a possible dry bed with potential water flows when there is heavy rain on the mountains to the west of Rajapalaiyam. Also see http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=9.466122&lon=77.574162&z=15&m=b&show=/19005235/?????????-???. > > It is really surprising that such an insignificant river (probably unknown to people from outside the immediate area) is mentioned by a person from a far-away Tiruvi?aimarut?r. (One source says Dak?i??vartan?tha is from Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumpak??am. See https://books.google.com/books?id=70uvBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT37&lpg=PT37&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=fJgek3fYnA&sig=IuQZUkdGSskYUIqSsIMN43p3VXU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXnqHGtYPWAhWj6oMKHRveCIIQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) If the name K?yakku?i is indeed mentioned in the commentary, and if Dak?i??vartan?tha?s place is still open, a possible candidate is Tiruppu?aimarut?r, the southern ?arjuna? location. (See https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z) > > One source dates Dak?i??vartan?tha to 12th century. See https://books.google.com/books?id=9P3lDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=6hFyoz8A9b&sig=XbHCimb93_96S5HpUkD63FXetXk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqvSko4PWAhUB7oMKHf5OBUcQ6AEIRzAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false. In the 12th century, the P???iyas were in Madurai. Even if Dak?i??vartan?tha lived in the 14th or 15th century, there was no headquarters of the P???iyas on the K?yakku?i river. Two places associated with the P???iyas were Ukkira? K???ai (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z) and Te?k?ci (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z) Both are nowhere near the K?yakku?i river. > > I think this K?yakku?i river is a red herring as far as identifying Uraga is concerned. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > >> On Aug 31, 2017, at 11:02 AM, Christophe Vielle wrote: >> >> There is a K?yaku??/"Kayakudi" river in Tamil Nadu, more precisely in the Pandya country. See: >> >> The imperial gazetteer of India, W.W. Hunter, vol. 1, 1885, p. 12: >> https://archive.org/stream/imperialgazette01huntuoft#page/12/mode/2up >> >> Achandavilt?n. ? Town in Srivilliputtur t?luk, Tinnevelli District, Madras Presidency. Lat. 9 29' n., long. 77 42' e. ; population (1881), 2765 ; houses, 544. Situated on the left bank of the Kayak?di river. >> >> http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/achamthavilthan/about.htm >> >> "Achamthavilthan" , means "the lord has removed the fear from the minds of the people". There is a small story behind this. >> >> There is a river in between the two parts of the village. People have to go to other side of the river to buy Vegetables and other items. Once a pragrent lady has gone to other side to buy some items. On return, due to sudden rainfall there was a heavy water in the river and she has prayed to the Lord Venkatesa Perumal and he made the way for her. Due to this the people of this village has changed the name as "Achamthavilthan". >> >> 11km from there, the same river (a tributary of the Vaippar river/stream, which flows between the Vangai and the Tamraparni) is also linked to the Madavar Vilagam Vaidyanathar temple in Srivilliputhur (now Virudhunagar District): >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madavar_Vilagam_Vaidyanathar_temple >> http://temple.dinamalar.com/en/new_en.php?id=686 >> The lord also said that as the spring healed her wounds and quenched her thirst, the stream would be known as Kayakudi Aaru. Those having a dip in the river would be free of all fears of life and attain all comforts in life. >> >> This should be the river to which refers the South-Indian commentator Dak?i??vartan?tha (who himself originated from some village called Mah?rjuna, identified with the "region called Madhy?rjuna which is the Sanskritised form of the popular name of Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, according to N. P. Unni). >> >> Why Dak?i??vartan?tha says that [the supposed Pandyan capital] N?gapuram is on the border of this river? Maybe because at the time of the late Pandyas (from the second third of the 14th c. onwards, after the establishment of the Sultanate of Madurai), their real capital was no longer in Madurai (even if they never stopped in their inscriptions to symbolically present themselves as the true rulers of Madurai); "they found themselves restricted to their more southern possessions" (K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, The Pandyan Kingdom, 1929, p. 217) in the regions of Srivilliputur, Tenkasi and Tirunelveli. >> >> I am not sure that more historical importance has to be ascribed to this possibly "new" location of N?gapura by Dak?i??vartan?tha, who is a rather fanciful commentator. >> >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >> Le 29 ao?t 2017 ? 23:27, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan a ?crit : >> >>> If the question is really about the river mentioned by a commentator, there is no river in Tamil Nadu called K?yaku??. If one considers the possibility that this name is a translation of some Tamil name, one has to allow for ?losses in translation?. According to Monier Williams, k?ya also means "assemblage , collection , multitude SaddhP.? This seems to be a synonym of sa?gha (perhaps referring to the legendary Tamil assembly in Madurai) or a translation of ?Ta. K??al?, another name of the city of Madurai. >>> >>> If it was related to the city called uraga, there was a discussion in Indology earlier such as >>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1999-March/016494.html >>> >>> I was not able to navigate and get to all the posts from this link. You may want to do a search on ?uraga? and look at the posts. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Palaniappan >>> >>>> On Aug 29, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY wrote: >>>> >>>> The name of this river is reminding of 'K?yal', the name of the emporium in the delta of the Tamraparni (Tinnevelly District) referred to by Marco Polo (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/polo/marco/travels/book3.21.html - cf. K?lkhoi emporion, Ptolemy Geogr. 7, 1, 10). But the Tamil word k?yal ('backwater, mouth of a stream") is far from the meaning of "Curve of the body" (ku?? is found in several words for/names of "curving" rivers). The T?mrapar?? herself is described by K?lid?sa in 4.50 (53 crit. ed. Goodall & Isaacson). >>>> This explanation of N?ga(/Uraga)-pura as a city on the border of the K?yaku?? river in the P???ya country was already made by Dak?i??vartan?tha (13th-14th c.) in his unpublished d?pik? on the Raghuva??a according to N. P. Unni (Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2012, p. 159, who relies on a KUML transcript-manuscript). It is in this case (like in other) the source of Aru?agirin?tha (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century - the latter who also sometimes uses Dak?i??vartan?tha has possibly misread his source here or, as you guess, his text has been later corrupted), himself followed by N?r?ya?a Pa??ita. >>>> The commentary of Vallabhadeva could be useful here, but I have not Goodall & Isaacson edition at hand. >>>> On his side, the commentator Hem?dri says: urag?khyasyeti kalpit?rtham. >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Christophe Vielle >>>> >>>> Le 28 ao?t 2017 ? 21:34, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> Dear all >>>>> >>>>> In Raghuvamsa 6th Canto and Verse 58 or 59 >>>>> ???????????? ?????? ???? first foot says about Nagapura or Uragapura >>>>> Mallinatha explains as ??????????????????????????? but this seems to be a mistake as Kanouj is on the North of India , whereas the poet in further verses clearly places it on the south. >>>>> >>>>> And on further search I found Arunagirinatha and Narayana in the commentary to the above mentioned verse give the details as the place in the bank of the river ??????? >>>>> ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????... >>>>> >>>>> Does any one knows about this river or its modern name kindly inform. >>>>> >>>>> I also believe that even Mallinatha has written ??????? as the name is not famous that must be due to ??????????? scribal error occurred >>>>> Thanks >>>> Correction : >>>> Not ??????? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> ??????????????????? >>>> Christophe Vielle >>>> Louvain-la-Neuve >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> > ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Sep 4 11:28:13 2017 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 11:28:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sandhi of vowels before (t)ti in Middle Indic Message-ID: Dear List members, I am looking for more information about word final vowels before the quotative particle (t)ti in Middle Indic in addition to Pischel's paragraphs 92, 93 and 143 and Geiger-Ghosh-Norman's paragraph 70 1 C (bhaviss?m?'ti) and 2 B (lahi?s?'ti). With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbroo at abo.fi Mon Sep 4 11:40:50 2017 From: mbroo at abo.fi (mbroo at abo.fi) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 14:40:50 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ramarcanacandrika Message-ID: <20170904144050.luwxm08200gcowsk@webmail2.abo.fi> Dear list members, Does anyone have a scan of the Nirnaya Sagara edition (1925) of Anandavana's Ramarcanacandrika? There is a Bengali ed on Archive.org, but the scan is hard to read. I would be very thankful for any help. Sincerely, M?ns -- Dr. M?ns Broo Senior Lecturer of Comparative Religion Editor of Temenos, Nordic Journal of Comparative Religion ?bo Akademi University Fabriksgatan 2 FI-20500 ?bo, Finland phone: +358-2-2154398 fax: +358-2-2154902 mobile: +358-50-5695754 From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Sep 4 12:56:05 2017 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 08:56:05 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Passing of Professor Luis Gomez Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, It is my sad duty to inform you that my colleague and a long time dear friend Professor Luis Gomez passed away yesterday in Mexico City. He was a leading scholar of Buddhist Studies and a wonderful teacher. He and I read many Sanskrit Buddhist texts together, and shared in common dozens of students at the University of Michigan. His memories will always be alive with me. Madhav Deshpande -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 13:45:28 2017 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 07:45:28 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Passing of Professor Luis Gomez In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, Thank you for letting us know. Only a few months ago, at the beginning of June, he gave what I thought was a very inspiring presentation at the Translation and Transmission Conference in Boulder, Colorado. He used examples, mostly from the Bodhicary?vat?ra, of getting to the intended meaning of particular words used by an author. He showed how easy it was to miss this when translating, and indicated ways to arrive at it. Afterwards, I asked him if he intended to publish his English translation of the Bodhicary?vat?ra, on which he had spent so much time determining the intent of the author. He said that he hoped to, but that he could not say much more then, apparently because of possibilities with more than one publisher. He seemed vibrant, and gave no sign of any health problems. I hope that this important work of his, if it is in fact finished (or nearly so), will not be lost. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:56 AM, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > It is my sad duty to inform you that my colleague and a long time > dear friend Professor Luis Gomez passed away yesterday in Mexico City. He > was a leading scholar of Buddhist Studies and a wonderful teacher. He and > I read many Sanskrit Buddhist texts together, and shared in common dozens > of students at the University of Michigan. His memories will always be > alive with me. > > Madhav Deshpande > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Mon Sep 4 16:27:09 2017 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 12:27:09 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rahul Sankrityayan's recordings of Sanskrit and Prakrit literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sincere thanks to everyone who replied off-list. It appears, sadly, that the recordings have not survived into the 21st century. 2017-08-29 12:59 GMT-04:00 Andrew Ollett : > Dear list members, > > I've come across a reference, in Alaka Atreya Chudal's book on Rahul > Sankrityayan, to recordings of Sanskrit and Prakrit texts (Artha??stra, > Nalop?khy?na, Setubandha, etc.) that the Mahapandit made while he was a > professor at Leningrad University (1945-1947). These recordings were > evidently available some decades afterwards in "the acoustics room at the > university," according to V. I. Kalianov. I've written to the institutions > at St. Petersburg that might know of the current whereabouts of these > recordings, but I thought that I would ask all of you if you have any > further information, especially since Sankrityayan is a relatively frequent > topic of conversation on this list. It would be great to put those > recordings online. > > I should also take the opportunity to ask whether any of you are aware of > any other recordings of Prakrit literature. I was surprised to see the > Setubandha in the list, since I know of many fine recordings of classical > Sanskrit and Kannada texts, but haven't yet found anything comparable for > Prakrit texts. > > Andrew > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Sep 5 03:52:25 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 17 21:52:25 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] SBL Varanasi Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Has there been any shift of late in the possibility of getting copies of manuscripts from the Saraswati Bhavan Library in Varanasi? Or are things as difficult as ever? Best, Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Tue Sep 5 13:45:05 2017 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 17 13:45:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 17th I.B. Horner Lecture, 29 September 2017 Message-ID: PALI TEXT SOCIETY 17th I. B. HORNER MEMORIAL LECTURE Vincent Tournier (SOAS, University of London) The Buddha?s Self-ordination: from the Vinaya m?t?k?s to the Milindapa?ha Friday, 29 September 2017, 5.30 p.m. Room FG01 (Faber Building) School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG All are welcome ABSTRACT This presentation will explore the status of the Buddha as an ?ordained? (upasampanna) master, as it emerges primarily within Vinaya literature. In fact, while the issue of the Buddha?s ordination (upasampad?) is not directly addressed in the Vinaya of the Mah?vih?rav?sins, a rich array of sources transmitted among other nik?yas understood the founder of the monastic lineage to have performed a specific kind of ordination, referred to as ?autonomous? (sv?ma?, svayambh?tva) or ?master-less? (an?c?ryaka) upasampad?. Such an ordination features prominently in lists of types of upasampad? opening texts belonging to the Vinayam?t?k? genre. These lists may be fruitfully compared in terms of their contents, ordering, and function within their wider scriptural contexts. In particular, it may be established that the category of self-ordination was used as an important organising factor in Vinaya narratives. Moreover, the buddhological implications of this notion deserve to be explored, and in particular the relationship between definitions of self-ordination and conceptions of ??kyamuni?s bodhisattva career, of his Awakening, and of his status as the initiator of the ??sana. Finally, to take into consideration definitions and uses of this notion within sources of the (M?la-)Sarv?stiv?dins, Mah?s??ghika (?Lokottarav?din)s, and S??mit?yas allows to better contextualise and understand an intriguing passage from the Milindapa?ha. This may contribute to the discussion on the northern connections and the doctrinal eclecticism of this unique P?li text, to the study of which P. Demi?ville as well as I. B. Horner masterfully contributed. -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TB, UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Wed Sep 6 14:00:41 2017 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 16:00:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gita 13.6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <59AFFF89.5090900@uni-muenchen.de> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 14:09:01 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 19:39:01 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mimamsa_Nyayaprakasa_commentary_Kr=CC=A5sn=CC=A3a=CC=A3=CC=84na=CC=84tha_nya=CC=84yapan=CC=83ca=CC=84nana._PDF?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all I am constantly searching for the commentary of ?????????????????? by Kr?sn?a??na?tha nya?yapan?ca?nana. No luck till date. If any one finds the book even in any library kindly let me know. This book must have published from Calcutta 1880s. There is in an entry in Bibliography of Indian Philosophy. He has not only written on Nyayaprakasa but also on Arthasangraha which is very lucid, Vedantaparibhasa and also on Champu Ramayana Abhijnana Shakuntala etc. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From collinb1 at ohio.edu Wed Sep 6 14:13:51 2017 From: collinb1 at ohio.edu (Collins, Brian) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 14:13:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Open Position at Ohio University for Tenured Full Professors of Any Humanities Discipline Message-ID: <727C8F27-A6E3-4D97-A52D-E0A798CF4F2D@ohio.edu> Dear List, Ohio University is accepting application for a new Ping Professor. The rank is tenured full professor and the job is open to religionists, South Asianists, Buddhologists, Indologists, philologists, Islamicists, and any other field of the humanities. Thanks, Brian Asst. Prof. Brian Collins Drs. Ram and Sushila Gawande Chair in Indian Religion and Philosophy N282 Lindley Hall Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 740-597-2103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From collinb1 at ohio.edu Wed Sep 6 14:20:36 2017 From: collinb1 at ohio.edu (Collins, Brian) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 14:20:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Open Position at Ohio University for Tenured Full Professors of Any Humanities Discipline In-Reply-To: <727C8F27-A6E3-4D97-A52D-E0A798CF4F2D@ohio.edu> Message-ID: <846A4BAB-5755-4C92-A702-712CA7E13B80@ohio.edu> Apologies, I forgot the link: https://www.ohiouniversityjobs.com/postings/23965 On Sep 6, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Collins, Brian via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear List, Ohio University is accepting application for a new Ping Professor. The rank is tenured full professor and the job is open to religionists, South Asianists, Buddhologists, Indologists, philologists, Islamicists, and any other field of the humanities. Thanks, Brian Asst. Prof. Brian Collins Drs. Ram and Sushila Gawande Chair in Indian Religion and Philosophy N282 Lindley Hall Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 740-597-2103 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fleming_b4 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 6 16:20:41 2017 From: fleming_b4 at hotmail.com (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 16:20:41 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 2017 Schoenberg Symposium_Registration open Message-ID: Dear group [apologies for x-posting], See below for information about Penn Libraries' upcoming symposium with speakers and topics relevant to this list: 10th Annual Lawrence J. Schoenberg Symposium on Manuscript Studies in the Digital Age November 2-4, 2017 Intertwined Worlds Registration now open! In partnership with the Rare Book Department of the Free Library of Philadelphia, the Schoenberg Institute of Manuscript Studies (SIMS) at the University of Pennsylvania Libraries is pleased to announce the 10th Annual Lawrence J. Schoenberg Symposium on Manuscript Studies in the Digital Age. Despite the linguistic and cultural complexity of many regions of the premodern world, religion supplies the basis of a strong material and textual cohesion that both crosses and intertwines boundaries between communities. This year?s theme, ?Intertwined Worlds,? will highlight the confluence of expressions of belief, ritual, and social engagement emerging in technologies and traditions of the world's manuscript cultures, often beyond a single religious context. It will consider common themes and practices of textual, artistic, literary, and iconographic production in religious life across time and geography, from ancient precedents to modern reception and dissemination in the digital age. The program will begin Thursday evening at 5:00 pm on November 2nd, 2017, at the Free Library of Philadelphia, Parkway Central Library, with a keynote lecture by Phyllis Granoff, Yale University. The symposium will continue November 3rd-4th at the Kislak Center of Special Collections, Rare Books, and Manuscripts at the University of Pennsylvania Libraries. For more information and to register, go to: http://www.library.upenn.edu/exhibits/lectures/ljs_symposium10.html . Participants include: * Iqbal Akhtar, Florida International University * Paul Dilley, University of Iowa * Benjamin Fleming, University of Pennsylvania * Ellen Gough, Emory University * Thibaud d'Hubert, University of Chicago * Zsuzsanna Gul?csi, Northern Arizona University * Ayesha Irani, University of Massachusetts, Boston * Shazia Jagot, University of Southern Denmark * Samantha Kelly, Rutgers University * Jinah Kim, Harvard University * Gila Prebor, Bar-Ilan University * Michael Pregil, Boston University * Michael Stanley-Baker, Max Planck Institute for the History of Science * Columba Stewart, Hill Museum and Manuscript Library * Justine Walden, University of Toronto * Tyler Williams, University of Chicago * Saymon Zakaria, Bangla Academy, Dhaka * Maayan Zhitomirsky-Geffet, Bar-Ilan University -- Benjamin Fleming, Kislak Center for Special Collections, Rare Books and Manuscripts; Philadelphia, PA 19104 U.S.A. Telephone - 215-900-5744 http://www.sas.upenn.edu/religious_studies/faculty/fleming https://twitter.com/Indic_MSS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu Wed Sep 6 21:11:44 2017 From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 17:11:44 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Online Course: The Science and Practice of Yoga Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Now that the semester has begun to get rolling, I wanted to share with you a possible resource for you or your students. The University of Texas at Arlington in conjunction with edX is offering a MOOC (massive open online course) on ?The Science and Practice of Yoga.? My understanding is that this course will feature recent research from scholars of contemplative neuroscience and positive psychology. I am no neuroscientist, but I have also contributed to the course a short discussion about the history of yoga and yoga?s relation to some pre-modern Indian religious traditions. The course begins on October 16, 2017. It is free for all who wish to enroll. More information and a button to enroll is here: https://www.edx.org/course/science-practice-yoga-utarlingtonx-link-bw-1x#! All best wishes, Andrew Andrew J. Nicholson Associate Professor Graduate Studies Director Asian & Asian American Studies Stony Brook University Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 USA (631) 632-4030 http://philosophicalrasika.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Wed Sep 6 22:36:51 2017 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 10:36:51 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indica et Buddhica now publishing critical editions Message-ID: <20170907113651.00003f46.rmahoney@fastmail.com> Dear Colleagues, Indica et Buddhica is publishing critical editions in classical Indian and Buddhist Studies. A proof-of-concept chapter is available here: ??ntideva: Bodhi(sattva)cary?vat?ra / Bodhicitt?nu?a?sa? prathama? pariccheda? / Sanskrit texts & Tibetan translations http://indica-et-buddhica.org/bodhicaryavatara-concept.pdf Please feel free to contact us if we could be of any help. Indica et Buddhica -- Author guidelines http://indica-et-buddhica.org/academic-author With best regards, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | INDICA ET BUDDHICA Littledene Bay Road Oxford New Zealand T: +64-3-312-1699 | www.indica-et-buddhica.org From skarashima at gmail.com Wed Sep 6 23:26:15 2017 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 08:26:15 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Concerning sandhi of vowels before (t)ti in Middle Indic Message-ID: Dear Prof. Tieken and colleagues, Concerning final vowels before the quotative particle *(t)ti* in Middle Indic, cf. BHSG ?? 4.7 ff., esp. ? 4.18. Cf. also Boris Oguib?nine, ?Sandhi et la particule *iti/ti* dans le *Bhik?u??-Vinaya*?, in: *Dharmad?ta, M?langes offerts au V?n?rable Th?ch Huy?n-Vi ? l?occasion de son soixante-dixi?me anniversaire, *dirig?s par Bhikkhu Tampalawela Dhammaratana, Bhikkhu P?s?dika, Paris 1997, pp. 169~182: You-Feng; von Hin?ber, *Das ?ltere Mittelindisch im ?berblick*, 2., erweiterte Auflage, Wien 2001: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, ?? 277f.; Roland Steiner, *Untersuchungen zu Har?adevas N?g?nanda und zum indischen Schauspiel*, Swisttal-Odendorf 1997: Indica et Tibetica Verlag (Indica et Tibetica 31), 189f.; Anna Aurelia Esposito, *C?rudatta. Ein indisches Schauspiel. Kritische Edition und ?bersetzung mit einer Studie des Prakrits der ?Trivandrum-Dramen?*, Wiesbaden 2004: Harrassowitz (Drama und Theater in S?dasien 4), pp. 42, 44. With best wishes, Seishi Karashima IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Thu Sep 7 01:53:45 2017 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 17 20:53:45 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gUml2ZXIg4KSV4KS+4KSv4KSV4KWB4KSf4KWA?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Christophe, Here are some further thoughts related to the place of Dak?i??vartan?tha. If he calls it ?Mah?rjuna', one should not equate it with Madhy?rjuna or Tiruvi?aimarut?r. We should look for a place called Perumarut?r. Today, you will find many Marut?rs in Tamil Nadu. There is a Perumarut?r in Pudukkottai District (https://www.google.com/maps/@10.0792648,79.1085514,15.95z ). But there are no inscriptional records supporting this location as a settlement of Brahmins of high achievement. However, we have another Perumarut?r mentioned in inscriptions from the 7th century. The I?aiy??putt?r copper plates (?va?am 18, p.10) mention a Perumarut?r, a village on the bank of the K?viri river where Vedic Brahmins lived. The objective of the grant was to give a Brahmin from this village a Brahmadeya village called I?aiy??putt?r in K?vilpa??i-Ca?kara?k?vil region of today. R. Nagaswamy has discussed this inscription in http://tamilartsacademy.com/articles/article54.xml . Later medieval inscriptions also mention persons from Perumarut?r as living in different villages. SII 12, no. 184 refers to a Brahmin from Perumarut?r living in Ulaka?antac??accaturvetima?kalam identified with Om?mpuliyur near Chidambaram. (The inscription also refers to a Tiruvala?cu?i U?aiy?r Iccippe??arayar of A?icupakkam. Interestingly Tiruvala?cu?i U?aiy?r is the Tamil equivalent of Dak?i??vartan?tha (except for the prefix Tiru-) and he is supposedly from A?icup?kkam.) Karantai Plates mention a According to SII 2, no. 70, p. 332, Perumarut?r (Perumarud?r) was in the K??Pal??u subdivision of P?cci? K???am of R?j??raya Va?an??u. Karandai Plates of 1021 mention a Brahmin from the same village receiving a share of the grant. Karandai Plates also mention another Brahmin from Perumarut?r but living in a different village. SII 26, no. 729 of 1219-20 CE in Tirune?u?ka?am in Tiruchi district mentions a Ma??aiy??v?? Vetan?yakapa??an (Vedan?yakabha??a) of K??yapa gotra from Perumarut?r. Inscription SII 26, no. 140 of 1411 CE in Komaralingam in Coimbatore district mentions a Brahmin from Perumarut?r who acted as a representative of the Vijayanagara king. According to K. G. Krishnan, the editor of Karandai Plates of 1021 CE, this village was located either in Lalgudi or Musiri Taluk of Tiruchirappalli district. There is a village called Ci?umarut?r/Sirmarudhur (Little Marut?r) to the west of Lalgudi. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sirumarudhur,+Tamil+Nadu+621218,+India/@10.8824954,78.7518197,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3baaf14646fb8353:0xb6c72eac7121f4!8m2!3d10.8819984!4d78.7603726 ) To the north of Ci?umarut?r is a village called Marut?r. I do not know if this was the Perumarut?r (contrasting with the Little Marut?r) mentioned in the inscriptions. Whatever be its current exact location is, I propose this Perumarut?r near Tiruchrappalli to be the Tamil equivalent of ?Mah?rjuna' of Dak?i??vartan?tha. Regards, Palaniappan > On Sep 4, 2017, at 6:04 AM, Christophe Vielle wrote: > > Dear Palaniappan, > > the date (which can be estimated only relatively) and place of Dak?i??vartan?tha are indeed still open to discussion. I take the opportunity of your remark for reviewing my notes on the question. > > The dating to the 12th century given by Pollock (World Philology, p. 118 - https://books.google.be/books?hl=fr&id=lbMyBQAAQBAJ&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&q=Daksinavartanatha#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) > is not really supported (there is a reference, ibid. fn. 18 p. 353, to Unni 1987 [see below], but the latter pp. 40-41 proposes a dating from the 13th to the 15th c.). > > The place Tiruvala?cu?i [Thiruvalanjuli, also near Kumbakonam] given by Ajay K. Rao 2014 (your reference) was suggested by T. Ga?apati ??str? in his preface to the 1919 Trivandrum Sanskrit Series (no. 64) edition of the Meghasa?de?a with Dak?i??vartan?tha's Prad?pa (following the name of ?iva called Dak?i??vartan?tha in the sanctuary there, see: http://www.archive.org/details/MeghadutaWithTheCommentaryOfDaksinavartanatha ). > Unithiri 1976 (see below) suggests another Tiruvala?cu?i? in Kerala (Thrissur District), with the idea that D would be the Sanskritised form of a Malayalam place-name [Tiru +] "vala?cuzhi (dak?i?a = valam, 'right' + ?varta = cuzhi, 'whirlpool')". (Unni 1987, pp. 34-38, in discussing these suggestions even adds a third, Keralan also, Tiruvala?cu?i place, but he does not accept the Keralan ones and keeps the idea of the name Dak?i??vartan?tha as referring to the peculiar name of ?iva in the Tamil tradition linked to Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumbakonam). As we have seen, D gives the Sanskrit name of his place of origin (which could correspond to Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, and thus close to the shrine of his name-deity according to N. P. Unni), for which you make now another suggestion of interpretation (Tiruppu?aimarut?r [Thiruppudaimaruthur], Ambasamudram taluk in Thirunelveli Distr. - http://tnmurals.org/Tiruppudaimaruduur.html : mural paintings in the temple). > > As for the relative dating, according to T. Ga?apati ??str? the date of D must be between the 12th c. (since D quotes the lexicon of Ke?avasv?min [ed. TSS 23, 29, 31, 1913] dated by Ga?apati ??str? to the 12th c. - but this lexicon belongs probably rather to the 2nd part of the 13th c. according to Madhukar M. Patkar, History of Sanskrit Lexicography, 1981, p. 97) and Aru?agirin?tha's time (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century). > Examining the peculiar relationships between Dak?i??vartan?tha's Prad?pa and P?r?asarasvat?'s Vidyullat?, S.K. De (intr. to his critical ed. of the poem, 1957, p. xxxi fn. 92 ; cf. also 1957 below, pp. 51-52) presumes that D is prior to P. This is also the opinion of Unni with a few more arguments (1987, pp. 52-53, cf. 2016 below). But Unithiri, who has made a closer comparison between the two (1976: "It is to be noticed that in almost all cases [when D differs from P in readings] D[a]k[?i??vartan?tha] notes the variant readings which are those of P[?r?a]s[arasvat?] and in most cases those of P[a]r[ame?va] also, indicating thereby that Dk corrects the traditionally accepted readings for his own reasons" ? about 20 such occurrences) has suggested the reverse (1975, p. viii; cf. also Iyer 1965, stressing on the differences between the Kerala textual tradition of P?r?asarasvat?/Parame?vara, on the one hand, and the one of Dak?i??vartan?tha/Mallin?tha on the other). > > Having myself several reasons to place P in the first part of the 14th c. (he must be close to Payy?r Bha??a Parame?vara 'I', fl. c. 1330, whose Sumanorama?? criticizes the Vidyullat? in a manner letting think that the two authors were very near in time and place), it would mean that D would belong either to to middle/second part of the 14th c. (close to both Mallin?tha and Aru?agirin?tha ? there is some connexion between them by their respective choices of names: A and M inspired by/having studied with D?) if he comes after, or to 2nd part of the 13th c. if he come before. I am at the moment of my examination rather inclined to place D after P. > > References: > ? K. Chattopadhyaya, ?Dak?i??vartan?tha and his Commentary on the Meghad?ta?, Mahamahopadhyaya Kuppuswami Sastri Commemoration Volume [C. Kunhan Raja ed.], Madras [c. 1935], pp. 17-24: https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.201063/2015.201063.Kuppuswami-Sastri#page/n27/mode/2up > ? S. K. De, ?Some Commentators on the Meghad?ta?, Annals of Oriental Research Institute (Madras), Centenary Number 13, 1957, (Sanskrit Section), pp. 49-64 > https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.97583/2015.97583.Annals-Of-Oriental-Research--University-Of-Madrascentenary-Numbervol13#page/n259/mode/2up > ? S. Venkitasubramonia Iyer, ?The Meghasande?a tradition in Kerala?, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 3/1, 1965, pp. 60-68. > ? N.V.P Unithiri, ?Dak?i??vartan?tha?s commentary on Meghasa?de?a?, Journal of the Kerala University Oriental Research Institute & Manuscripts Library 20/1, 1975, pp. 13-20; Id. ?Dak?i??vartan?tha ? commentator on K?lid?sa?s poems: his provenance?, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 14, 1976, pp. 216-222; > ? N.P. Unni, Meghasande?a (an assessment from the South), Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1987, pp. 33-65; Id., Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi : New Bharatiya Book, 2012, vol. 1, pp. 181-191, 232-238 [retyping of the previous one; on Dak?i??vartan?tha, same pages as in 1987 also in N.P. Unni, Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa with the commentaries Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, Vidyullat? of P?r?asarasvat?, Sumanorama?? of Parame?vara, edited with an elaborate introduction, > Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1987, again retyped in Id. ed. Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa (text and translation) with Twelves Sanskrit Commentaries, Veliyanad: Chinmaya International Foundation, 2016, pp. 42-69 ? the text of the introduction of Unni in Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa with the Commentary Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, Delhi : Nag Publishers, 1984, is slightly different, sometimes more extended, than the 1987 version - the latter can be seen as the "revised" one since it is the one which has been thereafter reproduced; I couldn't check Unni's article [probably = the text of the 1984 ed. intr.] "Dak?i??vartan?tha: A commentator of K?lid?sa", Sri Jagannatha Jyothi - Journal of Indology 1/2 (Puri), 1984, pp. 94-106). > > P.S. > 1. the wrong statement made by T. Ga?apati ??str? (1919) that Mallin?tha quotes "Aru??chalan?tha" (= Aru?agirin?tha) ? the n?tha to whom both Mallin?tha and Aru?agirin?tha refer being samely Dak?i??vartan?tha only ? is slavishly repeated by De 1957, p. 51, and should be ignored. > 2. Here is the available portion of the text of Dak?i??vartan?tha's D?pik? on Raghuva??a 6.59 as quoted by Unni 1984, p. 10, 1987, p. 37 (2016, p. 44): p???yade?e k?yaku??ti k?pi nad? vidyate | > 3. Editions of Dak?i??vartan?tha's D?pik?s on both the Raghuva??a and the Kum?rasambhava is something reallly needed: Unni is himself relying on, respectively, the KUML transcripts T.220 and T.216 (the first one was lost when I once tried to consult it). > > Best wishes, > Christophe > > > Le 1 sept. 2017 ? 09:04, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > a ?crit : > >> Thank you Christophe. I stand corrected regarding the name K?yakku?i. Here is the location of the village Achamthavilthan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Achamthavilthan,+Tamil+Nadu+626137,+India/@9.3406345,77.5745443,13.98z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3b06c40d59b23ce7:0xefcca7727b8ad986!8m2!3d9.4368458!4d77.6643502 . >> >> The river K?yakku?i is not marked in the map, even at maximum zooming. (In contrast, one can see Vaippar can be seen further to the south.) But the satellite map shows a possible dry bed with potential water flows when there is heavy rain on the mountains to the west of Rajapalaiyam. Also see http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=9.466122&lon=77.574162&z=15&m=b&show=/19005235/?????????-??? . >> >> It is really surprising that such an insignificant river (probably unknown to people from outside the immediate area) is mentioned by a person from a far-away Tiruvi?aimarut?r. (One source says Dak?i??vartan?tha is from Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumpak??am. See https://books.google.com/books?id=70uvBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT37&lpg=PT37&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=fJgek3fYnA&sig=IuQZUkdGSskYUIqSsIMN43p3VXU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXnqHGtYPWAhWj6oMKHRveCIIQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) If the name K?yakku?i is indeed mentioned in the commentary, and if Dak?i??vartan?tha?s place is still open, a possible candidate is Tiruppu?aimarut?r, the southern ?arjuna? location. (See https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) >> >> One source dates Dak?i??vartan?tha to 12th century. See https://books.google.com/books?id=9P3lDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=6hFyoz8A9b&sig=XbHCimb93_96S5HpUkD63FXetXk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqvSko4PWAhUB7oMKHf5OBUcQ6AEIRzAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false . In the 12th century, the P???iyas were in Madurai. Even if Dak?i??vartan?tha lived in the 14th or 15th century, there was no headquarters of the P???iyas on the K?yakku?i river. Two places associated with the P???iyas were Ukkira? K???ai (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) and Te?k?ci (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) Both are nowhere near the K?yakku?i river. >> >> I think this K?yakku?i river is a red herring as far as identifying Uraga is concerned. >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >>> On Aug 31, 2017, at 11:02 AM, Christophe Vielle > wrote: >>> >>> There is a K?yaku??/"Kayakudi" river in Tamil Nadu, more precisely in the Pandya country. See: >>> >>> The imperial gazetteer of India, W.W. Hunter, vol. 1, 1885, p. 12: >>> https://archive.org/stream/imperialgazette01huntuoft#page/12/mode/2up >>> Achandavilt?n. ? Town in Srivilliputtur t?luk, Tinnevelli District, Madras Presidency. Lat. 9 29' n., long. 77 42' e. ; population (1881), 2765 ; houses, 544. Situated on the left bank of the Kayak?di river. >>> >>> http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/achamthavilthan/about.htm >>> "Achamthavilthan" , means "the lord has removed the fear from the minds of the people". There is a small story behind this. >>> >>> There is a river in between the two parts of the village. People have to go to other side of the river to buy Vegetables and other items. Once a pragrent lady has gone to other side to buy some items. On return, due to sudden rainfall there was a heavy water in the river and she has prayed to the Lord Venkatesa Perumal and he made the way for her. Due to this the people of this village has changed the name as "Achamthavilthan". >>> >>> 11km from there, the same river (a tributary of the Vaippar river/stream, which flows between the Vangai and the Tamraparni) is also linked to the Madavar Vilagam Vaidyanathar temple in Srivilliputhur (now Virudhunagar District): >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madavar_Vilagam_Vaidyanathar_temple >>> http://temple.dinamalar.com/en/new_en.php?id=686 >>> The lord also said that as the spring healed her wounds and quenched her thirst, the stream would be known as Kayakudi Aaru. Those having a dip in the river would be free of all fears of life and attain all comforts in life. >>> >>> This should be the river to which refers the South-Indian commentator Dak?i??vartan?tha (who himself originated from some village called Mah?rjuna, identified with the "region called Madhy?rjuna which is the Sanskritised form of the popular name of Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, according to N. P. Unni). >>> >>> Why Dak?i??vartan?tha says that [the supposed Pandyan capital] N?gapuram is on the border of this river? Maybe because at the time of the late Pandyas (from the second third of the 14th c. onwards, after the establishment of the Sultanate of Madurai), their real capital was no longer in Madurai (even if they never stopped in their inscriptions to symbolically present themselves as the true rulers of Madurai); "they found themselves restricted to their more southern possessions" (K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, The Pandyan Kingdom, 1929, p. 217) in the regions of Srivilliputur, Tenkasi and Tirunelveli. >>> >>> I am not sure that more historical importance has to be ascribed to this possibly "new" location of N?gapura by Dak?i??vartan?tha, who is a rather fanciful commentator. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Christophe Vielle >>> >>> Le 29 ao?t 2017 ? 23:27, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > a ?crit : >>> >>>> If the question is really about the river mentioned by a commentator, there is no river in Tamil Nadu called K?yaku??. If one considers the possibility that this name is a translation of some Tamil name, one has to allow for ?losses in translation?. According to Monier Williams, k?ya also means "assemblage , collection , multitude SaddhP.? This seems to be a synonym of sa?gha (perhaps referring to the legendary Tamil assembly in Madurai) or a translation of ?Ta. K??al?, another name of the city of Madurai. >>>> >>>> If it was related to the city called uraga, there was a discussion in Indology earlier such as >>>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1999-March/016494.html >>>> >>>> I was not able to navigate and get to all the posts from this link. You may want to do a search on ?uraga? and look at the posts. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Palaniappan >>>> >>>>> On Aug 29, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The name of this river is reminding of 'K?yal', the name of the emporium in the delta of the Tamraparni (Tinnevelly District) referred to by Marco Polo (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/polo/marco/travels/book3.21.html - cf. K?lkhoi emporion, Ptolemy Geogr. 7, 1, 10). But the Tamil word k?yal ('backwater, mouth of a stream") is far from the meaning of "Curve of the body" (ku?? is found in several words for/names of "curving" rivers). The T?mrapar?? herself is described by K?lid?sa in 4.50 (53 crit. ed. Goodall & Isaacson). >>>>> This explanation of N?ga(/Uraga)-pura as a city on the border of the K?yaku?? river in the P???ya country was already made by Dak?i??vartan?tha (13th-14th c.) in his unpublished d?pik? on the Raghuva??a according to N. P. Unni (Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2012, p. 159, who relies on a KUML transcript-manuscript). It is in this case (like in other) the source of Aru?agirin?tha (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century - the latter who also sometimes uses Dak?i??vartan?tha has possibly misread his source here or, as you guess, his text has been later corrupted), himself followed by N?r?ya?a Pa??ita. >>>>> The commentary of Vallabhadeva could be useful here, but I have not Goodall & Isaacson edition at hand. >>>>> On his side, the commentator Hem?dri says: urag?khyasyeti kalpit?rtham. >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> Christophe Vielle >>>>> >>>>> Le 28 ao?t 2017 ? 21:34, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : >>>>> >>>>>> Dear all >>>>>> >>>>>> In Raghuvamsa 6th Canto and Verse 58 or 59 >>>>>> ???????????? ?????? ???? first foot says about Nagapura or Uragapura >>>>>> Mallinatha explains as ??????????????????????????? but this seems to be a mistake as Kanouj is on the North of India , whereas the poet in further verses clearly places it on the south. >>>>>> >>>>>> And on further search I found Arunagirinatha and Narayana in the commentary to the above mentioned verse give the details as the place in the bank of the river ??????? >>>>>> ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????... >>>>>> >>>>>> Does any one knows about this river or its modern name kindly inform. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also believe that even Mallinatha has written ??????? as the name is not famous that must be due to ??????????? scribal error occurred >>>>>> Thanks >>>>> Correction : >>>>> Not ??????? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> ??????????????????? >>>>> Christophe Vielle >>>>> Louvain-la-Neuve >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> ??????????????????? >>> Christophe Vielle >>> Louvain-la-Neuve >>> >> > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Thu Sep 7 07:32:55 2017 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 07:32:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Concerning sandhi of vowels before (t)ti in Middle Indic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Karashima, Thank you very much for the references. Roland Steiner and Professor Oguibenine had already written to me directly. My interest in the matter was raised by the situation in the A?oka inscriptions. In the Rock Edict Series the instances of the lengthening of the word final vowel before (i)ti seem to be found almost exclusively in the Kali?ga versions (vasev? ti in RES 1 A Dhauli) (and in the Separate Edicts found there [aphes? ti SepE 1 E Jauga?a, but aphesu ti Dhauli], not in the Separate Edicts in Sannati), and almost completely absent in K?ls? and E??agu?i. (the Kharo??h? versions can be discounted). The optatives are problematic in that the lengthening is also found without (t)ti: lahey? SepE 1 G in Jauga?a, la(b)hevu in Dhauli and Sannati, and calev? in Dhauli, caley? ti in Jauga?a and carevu in Sannati. The situation in the 6 versions of the Pillar Edict Series is equally confusing. gain, thank you very much for the references. With the best wishes, Herman Tieken Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] namens Seishi Karashima via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Verzonden: donderdag 7 september 2017 1:26 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Concerning sandhi of vowels before (t)ti in Middle Indic Dear Prof. Tieken and colleagues, Concerning final vowels before the quotative particle (t)ti in Middle Indic, cf. BHSG ?? 4.7 ff., esp. ? 4.18. Cf. also Boris Oguib?nine, ?Sandhi et la particule iti/ti dans le Bhik?u??-Vinaya?, in: Dharmad?ta, M?langes offerts au V?n?rable Th?ch Huy?n-Vi ? l?occasion de son soixante-dixi?me anniversaire, dirig?s par Bhikkhu Tampalawela Dhammaratana, Bhikkhu P?s?dika, Paris 1997, pp. 169~182: You-Feng; von Hin?ber, Das ?ltere Mittelindisch im ?berblick, 2., erweiterte Auflage, Wien 2001: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, ?? 277f.; Roland Steiner, Untersuchungen zu Har?adevas N?g?nanda und zum indischen Schauspiel, Swisttal-Odendorf 1997: Indica et Tibetica Verlag (Indica et Tibetica 31), 189f.; Anna Aurelia Esposito, C?rudatta. Ein indisches Schauspiel. Kritische Edition und ?bersetzung mit einer Studie des Prakrits der ?Trivandrum-Dramen?, Wiesbaden 2004: Harrassowitz (Drama und Theater in S?dasien 4), pp. 42, 44. With best wishes, Seishi Karashima IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrimaitreya at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 07:52:23 2017 From: shrimaitreya at gmail.com ((Maitreya) Borayin Larios) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 09:52:23 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Source_of_=C4=80ditya_Kavacam_(=3F)?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I have been trying to source a hymn entitled the "?ditya Kavacam." So far, I have only found a version on the Internet which gets copied around in different websites. For instance: http://www.vignanam. org/veda/aditya-kavacham-devanagari.html The Sanskrit has definitely a few typos and overall I am rather skeptical of online material that does not cite its sources. The "armor" in this version says that its source is the Gaur? Kha??a of the Sk?ndapur??a (iti sk?ndapur??e gaur?kha??e ?ditya kavaca? samp?r?am) however, I have not found it in the editions available to me. I know that many texts claim its source in the Sk?ndapur??a which, however, ends up being not more than just a claim. I wonder if the "?ditya Kavacam" is such a case. In any case, I would appreciate if anyone has a scan or a more reliable source for this text since all I have been able to find so far has only yielded one source in Kannada language that I, unfortunately, cannot read. Best, Borayin [image: --] Borayin Maitreya Larios [image: http://]about.me/borayin.larios Ezanvillestra?e 59 69118 Heidelberg Germany Office: (+49) 6221548939 Mobile: (+49) 17672329143 https://uni-heidelberg.academia.edu/BorayinLarios http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios/larios.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skarashima at gmail.com Thu Sep 7 08:15:40 2017 From: skarashima at gmail.com (Seishi Karashima) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 17:15:40 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Concerning sandhi of vowels before (t)ti in Middle Indic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Tieken, Thank you very much for the informative and suggestive message. According to my data, except for Pali literature and A?okan Minor Rock inscriptions in question and two occurrences in unpublished fragments in the Sch?yen Collection, the form -*? ti *occurs only in the Mah?s??ghika-Lokottarav?dins' Mah?vastu, Bhik?u??vinaya and Pr?timok?as?tra. The Mah?s??ghika school was predominant in Kali?ga. With best wishes, Seishi Karashima IRIAB, Soka University, Tokyo https://sokauniversity.academia.edu/SeishiKarashima http://iriab.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jneuss at makroskop.de Thu Sep 7 08:26:58 2017 From: jneuss at makroskop.de (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neu=C3=9F?=) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 10:26:58 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Book announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list members, I am pleased to announce the publication of my book: M?ndh?tr?durga ? A Preliminary Catalogue of the Historic Monuments at O?k?re?var-M?ndh?t?. The book is available as a free PDF, at the Open-Access publication platform CrossAsia-eBooks, hostet at the University of Heidelberg, Germany. Here is the link: http://crossasia-books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/xasia/catalog/book/269?lang=en A moderately priced hardcover copy is also available on amazon.de. Readers or institutions from outside Europe interested in obtaining a hardcover copy, are kindly requested to contact me off-list at jneuss at central-india.de Sorry for cross-posting. Best, J?rgen -- *** Dr. J?rgen Neu? Zwinglistr. 40 10555 Berlin Germany *** From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu Thu Sep 7 09:57:20 2017 From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 17 11:57:20 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Workshop: "Layers of Interpretation - Commentarial Practices Throughout Buddhist Textual Traditions", LMU, Munich, 15-16 June, 2018 Message-ID: Apologies for any crossposting. I would like to draw the attention of the list to this upcoming workshop in Munich. I, among others, would very much like to see abstracts sent from those working on Buddhist commentarial literature produced in the South Asia, Central Asia, and the Himalayan region. The Doctoral Program in Buddhist Studies at the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t, M?nchen is pleased to announce a call for papers for the workshop "Layers of Interpretation - Commentarial Practices Throughout Buddhist Textual Traditions," to be held on June 15-16, 2018 in Munich, Germany, with keynote addresses by Prof. Rupert Gethin (University of Bristol) and Prof. Alexander Mayer (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign). We invite applications from both established and early career scholars, including PhD students. The deadline for applications is November 15, 2017. For the CFP, please click here: http://www.buddhismus-studien.uni-muenchen.de/aktuelles/cfp_workshop/cfp_workshop_2018.pdf http://www.en.buddhismus-studien.uni-muenchen.de/currentissues/cfp_workshop2018/index.html -- Dr. des. Charles DiSimone Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep 8 13:35:43 2017 From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 17 15:35:43 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] DK AWARD for an outstanding PhD thesis on Sanskrit: 2015-2017 In-Reply-To: <20150712165548.Horde.dU7QQlCGuPAU74nk3dM931s@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <20170908153543.Horde.yeS1zuwxId3ZWxVxonGTvs3@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Fellow List Members, Here the announcement, with apologies for cross-postings: The DK Award for an outstanding doctoral thesis on Sanskrit and related studies was inaugurated in 2006 by the International Association of Sanskrit Studies at the World Sanskrit Conference in Edinburgh, in collaboration with DK Agencies, Delhi. The Award is for an outstanding PhD received in the period 2015-2017 on Sanskrit and related studies. It is for a scholar who is based outside South Asia. The deadline for applications for the next DK AWARD is 31st January 2018. As in previous years, the IASS will appoint a panel of adjudicators to assess the quality of the theses submitted for the award. The Award will be announced in July 2018, at the next WSC in Vancouver, Canada. The host of the IASS website is updating its programmes, so details about the DK Award (http://www.sanskritassociation.org/dk-award) may not be immediately accessible. Please consult the attachment (if the attachment gets rejected in transmission please write to me for a copy). The IASS thanks Mr Ramesh Mittal of DK Agencies personally and DK Agencies as a firm for supporting Sanskrit scholarship in a generous way: one thousand dollars worth of books from DK Agencies. Previous awardees have been Drs Wendy J. Phillips-Rodr?guez, Himal Trikha and Michael Slouber. yours sincerely, Jayandra Soni ------------------------------ Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies http://www.sanskritassociation.org jayandra.soni at sanskritassociation.org with a Cc to soni at staff.uni-marburg.de -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DKAwardConditions.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 49656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 19:07:30 2017 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 17 21:07:30 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <2c41315f-b0fe-28be-beb2-20062707a8f6@gmail.com> In recent years there has been a surge of popular books on the topic of cultivating one's ability to experience lucid dreams -- that is, dreams in which the dreamer is aware that he/she is dreaming and is able to a greater or lesser extent to influence the unfolding of dream events; extreme clarity and wealth of detail are other commonly reported features. Some of these books expound (with varying degrees of knowledge, or so it seems to a non-Tibetologist like myself) on the connection between lucid dreaming and Tibetan 'dream yoga'. But what about Sanskrit sources? Are there any works in Sanskrit -- Buddhist or otherwise -- dealing with such states of mind and/or practices? I know of works on svapna??stra in the sense of oneiromancy, but that is all. Martin Gansten From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 03:15:43 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 08:45:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <2c41315f-b0fe-28be-beb2-20062707a8f6@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-24-92-02-193.pdf THE HISTORY OF LUCID DREAMING For most of us such lucid dreamsare rare and beyond our abilityto induce. Is there any way of cultivatingour abilityto awaken in our dreams at will? A variety of contemplative traditions and dream explorerssay yes. In the fourth century,the classicalyoga sutrasof *Patanjali recommended "witnessing the process of dreaming or dreamless sleep" (Shearer, 1989).* Four centuries later Tibetan Buddhistsdevised a sophisticateddream yoga. In the 12thcentury the Sufi mystic Ibn El-Arabi, a religious and philosophicalgenius known to the Arab world as "the greatest master," claimed that "aperson must control his thoughts in a dream. The training of this alertness ... will produce great benefits for the individual, Everyone should apply himself to the attainment of this ability of such great value" (Shah, 1971). More recently a number of explorers and spiritual masters such as Sri Aurobindo (1970) and Rudolf Steiner (1947) also reported success with lucid dreaming. For decades Western researchers dismissed such reports as impossible. However, in the 1970s, in a breakthrough in the history of dream research, two investigators provided experimental proof of lucid dreaming. Working independently and quite unknown to each other, Alan Worsley in Britain and Stephen LaBerge in California both learned to dream lucidly (Laberge, 1985). Then, while being monitored electrophysiologically in a sleep laboratory, they signaled by means of eye movements that they were dreaming, and knew it. Their electroencephalograms showed the characteristic patterns of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, during which dreaming typically occurs, validating their reports. For the first time in history someone had brought back a message from the world of dreams while still dreaming. Dream research has never been the same since. Interestingly, for some time LaBerge was unable to get his reports published because reviewers simply refused to believe that lucid dreaming was possible. Since then, with the aid of eye movement signaling and electrophysiological measures, much progress has been made, such as in studies of the frequency and duration of lucid dreams, their physiological effects on brain and body, the psychological characteristics of those who have them, the means for inducing them more reliably, and their potential for healing and transpersonal exploration. SHEARER, P. (transl.) (1989). Effortless being: The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, London: Unwin. On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > In recent years there has been a surge of popular books on the topic of > cultivating one's ability to experience lucid dreams -- that is, dreams in > which the dreamer is aware that he/she is dreaming and is able to a greater > or lesser extent to influence the unfolding of dream events; extreme > clarity and wealth of detail are other commonly reported features. Some of > these books expound (with varying degrees of knowledge, or so it seems to a > non-Tibetologist like myself) on the connection between lucid dreaming and > Tibetan 'dream yoga'. But what about Sanskrit sources? Are there any works > in Sanskrit -- Buddhist or otherwise -- dealing with such states of mind > and/or practices? I know of works on svapna??stra in the sense of > oneiromancy, but that is all. > > Martin Gansten > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Sat Sep 9 03:35:50 2017 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 03:35:50 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1548251507.29897.1504928150067@mail.yahoo.com> Psychologist Charles Alexander was a leading researcher in this area and he made a distinction between lucid dreaming as it is commonly studied in that community and what Patanjali and other Yoga texts refer to. The difference seems to be whether the "witnesser" of the dreams is what the later Indian tradition might call the jiva versus the atman (my apologies for mixing terminologies, I'm in a rush and don't remember off-hand the proper Yoga terms.) These links refer to Alexander's work: 1) Is lucid dreaming related to higher states of consciousness? https://journals.macewan.ca/lucidity/article/viewFile/488/401 2) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1009507310513 From: Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY To: Martin Gansten Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-24-92-02-193.pdf THE HISTORY OF LUCID DREAMING For most of us such lucid dreamsare rare and beyond ourabilityto induce. Is there any way of cultivatingour abilityto awaken in ourdreams at will? A variety of contemplative traditions and dream explorerssayyes. In the fourth century,the classicalyoga sutrasof Patanjali recommended "witnessing the process of dreaming ordreamless sleep" (Shearer, 1989). Four centuries later TibetanBuddhistsdevised a sophisticateddream yoga. In the 12thcentury the Sufi mysticIbn El-Arabi, a religious and philosophicalgenius known to the Arab world as"the greatest master," claimed that "aperson must control histhoughts in a dream. The training of this alertness ... will produce greatbenefits for the individual, Everyone should apply himself to the attainment ofthis ability of such great value" (Shah, 1971). More recently a number ofexplorers and spiritual masters such as Sri Aurobindo (1970) and Rudolf Steiner(1947) also reported success with lucid dreaming. For decades ?Westernresearchers dismissed such reports as impossible. However, in the 1970s, in abreakthrough in the history of dream research, two investigators providedexperimental proof of lucid dreaming. Working independently and quite unknownto each other, Alan Worsley in Britain and Stephen LaBerge in California bothlearned to dream lucidly (Laberge, 1985). Then, while being monitoredelectrophysiologically in a sleep laboratory, they signaled by means of eyemovements that they were dreaming, and knew it. Their electroencephalogramsshowed the characteristic patterns of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, duringwhich dreaming typically occurs, validating their reports. For the first timein history someone had brought back a message from the world of dreams whilestill dreaming. Dream research has never been the same since. Interestingly,for some time LaBerge was unable to get his reports published because reviewerssimply refused to believe that lucid dreaming was possible. Since then, with the aid of eye movement signaling andelectrophysiological measures, much progress has been made, such as in studiesof the frequency and duration of lucid dreams, their physiological effects onbrain and body, the psychological characteristics of those who have them, the meansfor inducing them more reliably, and their potential for healing andtranspersonal exploration. SHEARER, P. (transl.) (1989). Effortless being: The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali,London: Unwin. On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: In recent years there has been a surge of popular books on the topic of cultivating one's ability to experience lucid dreams -- that is, dreams in which the dreamer is aware that he/she is dreaming and is able to a greater or lesser extent to influence the unfolding of dream events; extreme clarity and wealth of detail are other commonly reported features. Some of these books expound (with varying degrees of knowledge, or so it seems to a non-Tibetologist like myself) on the connection between lucid dreaming and Tibetan 'dream yoga'. But what about Sanskrit sources? Are there any works in Sanskrit -- Buddhist or otherwise -- dealing with such states of mind and/or practices? I know of works on svapna??stra in the sense of oneiromancy, but that is all. Martin Gansten ______________________________ _________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.i nfo (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi?Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies ?FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of??Liberal Education,?(Pune, Maharashtra,?INDIA?)???_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Sep 9 09:31:31 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 09:31:31 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <2c41315f-b0fe-28be-beb2-20062707a8f6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C63079@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear Martin, In my article "The Illusion of Spiritual Progress" (found here: https://www.academia.edu/9972609/Selected_Articles_on_Tibetan_Religion_11th-13th_c ), I considered a puzzling work called the MAyAdhvakrama, and now only available in Tibetan, in which the practice of lucid dreaming is quite clearly mentioned. At the time I wrote the article (early 90s), as will be seen in the notes, I was already dubious about the text's authenticity and I have since become certain that it is a 12th c. Tibetan apocryphon (though I've not yet published my arguments demonstrating this to be so). Many Tibetan sources cite the traditions of the Pancakrama of NAgArjuna and the Advayavijayatantra as the authorities for the practice. I have not investigated whether or not this is supported by bona fide Indian sources, however. (The mUla of the Pancakrama does not, I think, clearly reference lucid dreaming, but I haven't examined all the related literature by any means.) The CAryamelApakapradIpa, expertly studied by my colleague Christian Wedemeyer, has one passage (248-252 in the trans.) that perhaps hints at lucid dreaming, but it would be difficult to make a strong case for it. hope this helps, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago __________ From psdmccartney at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 09:59:26 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 19:29:26 +0930 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C63079@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: Dear Martin, While there doesn't seem to be much related to 'lucid dreaming' in this new book (2018) by Leanne Whitney, it appears to be a fascinating comparison between CJ Jung and Pata?jali that might add something to this discussion https://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=GlsvDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PT12&dq=yoga+jung+and+the+shadow&ots=DpRUmI20fB&sig=oz6BPKbMjWbfvEoOHLnAiUgUTZ4#v=snippet&q=dreams&f=false All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Martin, > > In my article "The Illusion of Spiritual Progress" (found here: > https://www.academia.edu/9972609/Selected_Articles_on_ > Tibetan_Religion_11th-13th_c ), I considered > a puzzling work called the MAyAdhvakrama, and now only available in > Tibetan, > in which the practice of lucid dreaming is quite clearly mentioned. At the > time I wrote the article (early 90s), > as will be seen in the notes, I was already dubious about the text's > authenticity and I have since > become certain that it is a 12th c. Tibetan apocryphon (though I've not > yet published my arguments > demonstrating this to be so). > > Many Tibetan sources cite the traditions of the Pancakrama of NAgArjuna > and the Advayavijayatantra as the > authorities for the practice. I have not investigated whether or not this > is supported by bona fide Indian sources, > however. (The mUla of the Pancakrama does not, I think, clearly reference > lucid dreaming, but I haven't examined > all the related literature by any means.) The CAryamelApakapradIpa, > expertly studied by my colleague > Christian Wedemeyer, has one passage (248-252 in the trans.) that perhaps > hints at lucid dreaming, > but it would be difficult to make a strong case for it. > > hope this helps, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > __________ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sat Sep 9 10:18:00 2017 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 12:18:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Before the Buddhahood, before Uruvela Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Is there somewhere in the Tipitaka a description of the days *preceding* the seven days meditation at Uruvela, on the bank of the river Neranjara? I seem to have lost some elements from the Buddha's Tipitakan biography. Thanks, Artur Karp (ret.) Chair of South Asian Studies, Uniwersytet Warszawski Polska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Sep 9 10:22:47 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 10:22:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C6309F@xm-mbx-06-prod> I forgot to add that the mahAjagrat "great awakening" of the MokSopaya, discussed by Juergen Hanneder in his very interesting contribution to http://indologica.de/drupal/?q=node/652 ( a book that may be in any case pertinent) also seems to intimate lucid dreaming. As Hanneder puts it (p. 93) "a dream world (svapna) becomes a new waking state...." - Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dominic.goodall at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 10:32:28 2017 From: dominic.goodall at gmail.com (Dominic Goodall) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 16:02:28 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0gUml2ZXIg4KSV4KS+4KSv4KSV4KWB4KSf4KWA?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: K?lid?sa's mention of an Uragapura (or, in the reading known to Vallabhadeva, N?gapura) seems to have given rise to several theories. Dak?i??varta?s location of the place on a river K?yaku?? is, as we have seen, echoed in the commentary Mallin?tha, but also in those of the Keralan commentators Aru?agirin?tha and N?r?ya?apa??ita. Unsurprisingly, the late medieval commentators from further North seem not to provide information about the identity of the place or the river that it lies on. Nandargikar in his notes to his 4th edition is categoric that the town must be Nagapattinam, which he asserts without any supporting argument (1971:123): ?Hem?dri interpretes (sic) this by ?n?gapurasya n?tha?.? But he is evidently wrong, the town alluded to here is n?gapa??ana or n?gapa??a?a (Negapattam) in the R?jamahendri district of the Madras Presidency.? (I suppose that this might mean that Nandargikar supposed that Hem?dri erroneously took the town to be the one that is now most famous under the name Nagpur.) Then there is the possibility that Uragapura refers to Madurai (as in the post referred to by Emmanuel Francis: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1999-March/016494.html). Others again think it must be in a suburb of Trichy, at the Northern edge of the P???ya area (Ghurye, Caste and Race in India, p. 357): ?This is again the earliest and perhaps also the solitary reference to the famous early mediaeval and late ancient city or town of Uraiyur in Tiruchirapalli (Trichinopoly) district.? Dhoy??s Pavanad?ta places the town on the bank of the T?mrapar??, which would preclude any identification with Nagapattinam, Madurai or Trichy: ?r?kha???dre? parisaram atikramya gavy?tim?tra? gantavyas te kim api jagat?ma??ana? p???yade?a?/ tatra khy?ta? puram uragam ity ?khyay? t?mrap?r?y?? t?re mugdhakramukatarubhir baddharekhe bhajeth??// 8 But of course it is possible that Dhoy? knew little about Uragapura/N?gapura, having simply read about it in, for instance, K?lid?sa?s Raghuva??a in the context of the description of the P???yan king, and that he decided on that basis that it must be on the bank of the T?mrapar??. Furthermore, it is perhaps not especially likely that K?lid?sa had been there either. It could simply have been famous to him as the P???ya capital, either in his own time, or in some legendary timeless time that he himself knew of only from other literary references. Dominic Goodall > On 07-Sep-2017, at 7:23 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Christophe, > > Here are some further thoughts related to the place of Dak?i??vartan?tha. If he calls it ?Mah?rjuna', one should not equate it with Madhy?rjuna or Tiruvi?aimarut?r. We should look for a place called Perumarut?r. Today, you will find many Marut?rs in Tamil Nadu. There is a Perumarut?r in Pudukkottai District (https://www.google.com/maps/@10.0792648,79.1085514,15.95z ). But there are no inscriptional records supporting this location as a settlement of Brahmins of high achievement. > > However, we have another Perumarut?r mentioned in inscriptions from the 7th century. The I?aiy??putt?r copper plates (?va?am 18, p.10) mention a Perumarut?r, a village on the bank of the K?viri river where Vedic Brahmins lived. The objective of the grant was to give a Brahmin from this village a Brahmadeya village called I?aiy??putt?r in K?vilpa??i-Ca?kara?k?vil region of today. R. Nagaswamy has discussed this inscription in http://tamilartsacademy.com/articles/article54.xml . > > Later medieval inscriptions also mention persons from Perumarut?r as living in different villages. SII 12, no. 184 refers to a Brahmin from Perumarut?r living in Ulaka?antac??accaturvetima?kalam identified with Om?mpuliyur near Chidambaram. (The inscription also refers to a Tiruvala?cu?i U?aiy?r Iccippe??arayar of A?icupakkam. Interestingly Tiruvala?cu?i U?aiy?r is the Tamil equivalent of Dak?i??vartan?tha (except for the prefix Tiru-) and he is supposedly from A?icup?kkam.) Karantai Plates mention a > > According to SII 2, no. 70, p. 332, Perumarut?r (Perumarud?r) was in the K??Pal??u subdivision of P?cci? K???am of R?j??raya Va?an??u. Karandai Plates of 1021 mention a Brahmin from the same village receiving a share of the grant. Karandai Plates also mention another Brahmin from Perumarut?r but living in a different village. SII 26, no. 729 of 1219-20 CE in Tirune?u?ka?am in Tiruchi district mentions a Ma??aiy??v?? Vetan?yakapa??an (Vedan?yakabha??a) of K??yapa gotra from Perumarut?r. Inscription SII 26, no. 140 of 1411 CE in Komaralingam in Coimbatore district mentions a Brahmin from Perumarut?r who acted as a representative of the Vijayanagara king. > > According to K. G. Krishnan, the editor of Karandai Plates of 1021 CE, this village was located either in Lalgudi or Musiri Taluk of Tiruchirappalli district. There is a village called Ci?umarut?r/Sirmarudhur (Little Marut?r) to the west of Lalgudi. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sirumarudhur,+Tamil+Nadu+621218,+India/@10.8824954,78.7518197,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3baaf14646fb8353:0xb6c72eac7121f4!8m2!3d10.8819984!4d78.7603726 ) To the north of Ci?umarut?r is a village called Marut?r. I do not know if this was the Perumarut?r (contrasting with the Little Marut?r) mentioned in the inscriptions. > > Whatever be its current exact location is, I propose this Perumarut?r near Tiruchrappalli to be the Tamil equivalent of ?Mah?rjuna' of Dak?i??vartan?tha. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Sep 4, 2017, at 6:04 AM, Christophe Vielle > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> >> the date (which can be estimated only relatively) and place of Dak?i??vartan?tha are indeed still open to discussion. I take the opportunity of your remark for reviewing my notes on the question. >> >> The dating to the 12th century given by Pollock (World Philology, p. 118 - https://books.google.be/books?hl=fr&id=lbMyBQAAQBAJ&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&q=Daksinavartanatha#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) >> is not really supported (there is a reference, ibid. fn. 18 p. 353, to Unni 1987 [see below], but the latter pp. 40-41 proposes a dating from the 13th to the 15th c.). >> >> The place Tiruvala?cu?i [Thiruvalanjuli, also near Kumbakonam] given by Ajay K. Rao 2014 (your reference) was suggested by T. Ga?apati ??str? in his preface to the 1919 Trivandrum Sanskrit Series (no. 64) edition of the Meghasa?de?a with Dak?i??vartan?tha's Prad?pa (following the name of ?iva called Dak?i??vartan?tha in the sanctuary there, see: http://www.archive.org/details/MeghadutaWithTheCommentaryOfDaksinavartanatha ). >> Unithiri 1976 (see below) suggests another Tiruvala?cu?i? in Kerala (Thrissur District), with the idea that D would be the Sanskritised form of a Malayalam place-name [Tiru +] "vala?cuzhi (dak?i?a = valam, 'right' + ?varta = cuzhi, 'whirlpool')". (Unni 1987, pp. 34-38, in discussing these suggestions even adds a third, Keralan also, Tiruvala?cu?i place, but he does not accept the Keralan ones and keeps the idea of the name Dak?i??vartan?tha as referring to the peculiar name of ?iva in the Tamil tradition linked to Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumbakonam). As we have seen, D gives the Sanskrit name of his place of origin (which could correspond to Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, and thus close to the shrine of his name-deity according to N. P. Unni), for which you make now another suggestion of interpretation (Tiruppu?aimarut?r [Thiruppudaimaruthur], Ambasamudram taluk in Thirunelveli Distr. - http://tnmurals.org/Tiruppudaimaruduur.html : mural paintings in the temple). >> >> As for the relative dating, according to T. Ga?apati ??str? the date of D must be between the 12th c. (since D quotes the lexicon of Ke?avasv?min [ed. TSS 23, 29, 31, 1913] dated by Ga?apati ??str? to the 12th c. - but this lexicon belongs probably rather to the 2nd part of the 13th c. according to Madhukar M. Patkar, History of Sanskrit Lexicography, 1981, p. 97) and Aru?agirin?tha's time (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century). >> Examining the peculiar relationships between Dak?i??vartan?tha's Prad?pa and P?r?asarasvat?'s Vidyullat?, S.K. De (intr. to his critical ed. of the poem, 1957, p. xxxi fn. 92 ; cf. also 1957 below, pp. 51-52) presumes that D is prior to P. This is also the opinion of Unni with a few more arguments (1987, pp. 52-53, cf. 2016 below). But Unithiri, who has made a closer comparison between the two (1976: "It is to be noticed that in almost all cases [when D differs from P in readings] D[a]k[?i??vartan?tha] notes the variant readings which are those of P[?r?a]s[arasvat?] and in most cases those of P[a]r[ame?va] also, indicating thereby that Dk corrects the traditionally accepted readings for his own reasons" ? about 20 such occurrences) has suggested the reverse (1975, p. viii; cf. also Iyer 1965, stressing on the differences between the Kerala textual tradition of P?r?asarasvat?/Parame?vara, on the one hand, and the one of Dak?i??vartan?tha/Mallin?tha on the other). >> >> Having myself several reasons to place P in the first part of the 14th c. (he must be close to Payy?r Bha??a Parame?vara 'I', fl. c. 1330, whose Sumanorama?? criticizes the Vidyullat? in a manner letting think that the two authors were very near in time and place), it would mean that D would belong either to to middle/second part of the 14th c. (close to both Mallin?tha and Aru?agirin?tha ? there is some connexion between them by their respective choices of names: A and M inspired by/having studied with D?) if he comes after, or to 2nd part of the 13th c. if he come before. I am at the moment of my examination rather inclined to place D after P. >> >> References: >> ? K. Chattopadhyaya, ?Dak?i??vartan?tha and his Commentary on the Meghad?ta?, Mahamahopadhyaya Kuppuswami Sastri Commemoration Volume [C. Kunhan Raja ed.], Madras [c. 1935], pp. 17-24: https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.201063/2015.201063.Kuppuswami-Sastri#page/n27/mode/2up >> ? S. K. De, ?Some Commentators on the Meghad?ta?, Annals of Oriental Research Institute (Madras), Centenary Number 13, 1957, (Sanskrit Section), pp. 49-64 >> https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.97583/2015.97583.Annals-Of-Oriental-Research--University-Of-Madrascentenary-Numbervol13#page/n259/mode/2up >> ? S. Venkitasubramonia Iyer, ?The Meghasande?a tradition in Kerala?, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 3/1, 1965, pp. 60-68. >> ? N.V.P Unithiri, ?Dak?i??vartan?tha?s commentary on Meghasa?de?a?, Journal of the Kerala University Oriental Research Institute & Manuscripts Library 20/1, 1975, pp. 13-20; Id. ?Dak?i??vartan?tha ? commentator on K?lid?sa?s poems: his provenance?, Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 14, 1976, pp. 216-222; >> ? N.P. Unni, Meghasande?a (an assessment from the South), Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1987, pp. 33-65; Id., Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi : New Bharatiya Book, 2012, vol. 1, pp. 181-191, 232-238 [retyping of the previous one; on Dak?i??vartan?tha, same pages as in 1987 also in N.P. Unni, Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa with the commentaries Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, Vidyullat? of P?r?asarasvat?, Sumanorama?? of Parame?vara, edited with an elaborate introduction, >> Delhi : Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1987, again retyped in Id. ed. Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa (text and translation) with Twelves Sanskrit Commentaries, Veliyanad: Chinmaya International Foundation, 2016, pp. 42-69 ? the text of the introduction of Unni in Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa with the Commentary Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, Delhi : Nag Publishers, 1984, is slightly different, sometimes more extended, than the 1987 version - the latter can be seen as the "revised" one since it is the one which has been thereafter reproduced; I couldn't check Unni's article [probably = the text of the 1984 ed. intr.] "Dak?i??vartan?tha: A commentator of K?lid?sa", Sri Jagannatha Jyothi - Journal of Indology 1/2 (Puri), 1984, pp. 94-106). >> >> P.S. >> 1. the wrong statement made by T. Ga?apati ??str? (1919) that Mallin?tha quotes "Aru??chalan?tha" (= Aru?agirin?tha) ? the n?tha to whom both Mallin?tha and Aru?agirin?tha refer being samely Dak?i??vartan?tha only ? is slavishly repeated by De 1957, p. 51, and should be ignored. >> 2. Here is the available portion of the text of Dak?i??vartan?tha's D?pik? on Raghuva??a 6.59 as quoted by Unni 1984, p. 10, 1987, p. 37 (2016, p. 44): p???yade?e k?yaku??ti k?pi nad? vidyate | >> 3. Editions of Dak?i??vartan?tha's D?pik?s on both the Raghuva??a and the Kum?rasambhava is something reallly needed: Unni is himself relying on, respectively, the KUML transcripts T.220 and T.216 (the first one was lost when I once tried to consult it). >> >> Best wishes, >> Christophe >> >> >> Le 1 sept. 2017 ? 09:04, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > a ?crit : >> >>> Thank you Christophe. I stand corrected regarding the name K?yakku?i. Here is the location of the village Achamthavilthan https://www.google.com/maps/place/Achamthavilthan,+Tamil+Nadu+626137,+India/@9.3406345,77.5745443,13.98z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x3b06c40d59b23ce7:0xefcca7727b8ad986!8m2!3d9.4368458!4d77.6643502 . >>> >>> The river K?yakku?i is not marked in the map, even at maximum zooming. (In contrast, one can see Vaippar can be seen further to the south.) But the satellite map shows a possible dry bed with potential water flows when there is heavy rain on the mountains to the west of Rajapalaiyam. Also see http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=9.466122&lon=77.574162&z=15&m=b&show=/19005235/?????????-??? . >>> >>> It is really surprising that such an insignificant river (probably unknown to people from outside the immediate area) is mentioned by a person from a far-away Tiruvi?aimarut?r. (One source says Dak?i??vartan?tha is from Tiruvala?cu?i near Kumpak??am. See https://books.google.com/books?id=70uvBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT37&lpg=PT37&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=fJgek3fYnA&sig=IuQZUkdGSskYUIqSsIMN43p3VXU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXnqHGtYPWAhWj6oMKHRveCIIQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false ) If the name K?yakku?i is indeed mentioned in the commentary, and if Dak?i??vartan?tha?s place is still open, a possible candidate is Tiruppu?aimarut?r, the southern ?arjuna? location. (See https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) >>> >>> One source dates Dak?i??vartan?tha to 12th century. See https://books.google.com/books?id=9P3lDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Dak?i??vartan?tha&source=bl&ots=6hFyoz8A9b&sig=XbHCimb93_96S5HpUkD63FXetXk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdqvSko4PWAhUB7oMKHf5OBUcQ6AEIRzAH#v=onepage&q=Dak?i??vartan?tha&f=false . In the 12th century, the P???iyas were in Madurai. Even if Dak?i??vartan?tha lived in the 14th or 15th century, there was no headquarters of the P???iyas on the K?yakku?i river. Two places associated with the P???iyas were Ukkira? K???ai (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) and Te?k?ci (https://www.google.com/maps/@9.8155248,77.8396093,8.27z ) Both are nowhere near the K?yakku?i river. >>> >>> I think this K?yakku?i river is a red herring as far as identifying Uraga is concerned. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Palaniappan >>> >>>> On Aug 31, 2017, at 11:02 AM, Christophe Vielle > wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a K?yaku??/"Kayakudi" river in Tamil Nadu, more precisely in the Pandya country. See: >>>> >>>> The imperial gazetteer of India, W.W. Hunter, vol. 1, 1885, p. 12: >>>> https://archive.org/stream/imperialgazette01huntuoft#page/12/mode/2up >>>> Achandavilt?n. ? Town in Srivilliputtur t?luk, Tinnevelli District, Madras Presidency. Lat. 9 29' n., long. 77 42' e. ; population (1881), 2765 ; houses, 544. Situated on the left bank of the Kayak?di river. >>>> >>>> http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/achamthavilthan/about.htm >>>> "Achamthavilthan" , means "the lord has removed the fear from the minds of the people". There is a small story behind this. >>>> >>>> There is a river in between the two parts of the village. People have to go to other side of the river to buy Vegetables and other items. Once a pragrent lady has gone to other side to buy some items. On return, due to sudden rainfall there was a heavy water in the river and she has prayed to the Lord Venkatesa Perumal and he made the way for her. Due to this the people of this village has changed the name as "Achamthavilthan". >>>> >>>> 11km from there, the same river (a tributary of the Vaippar river/stream, which flows between the Vangai and the Tamraparni) is also linked to the Madavar Vilagam Vaidyanathar temple in Srivilliputhur (now Virudhunagar District): >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madavar_Vilagam_Vaidyanathar_temple >>>> http://temple.dinamalar.com/en/new_en.php?id=686 >>>> The lord also said that as the spring healed her wounds and quenched her thirst, the stream would be known as Kayakudi Aaru. Those having a dip in the river would be free of all fears of life and attain all comforts in life. >>>> >>>> This should be the river to which refers the South-Indian commentator Dak?i??vartan?tha (who himself originated from some village called Mah?rjuna, identified with the "region called Madhy?rjuna which is the Sanskritised form of the popular name of Tiruvi?aimarutt?r" [Thiruvidaimaruthur] near Kumbakonam, according to N. P. Unni). >>>> >>>> Why Dak?i??vartan?tha says that [the supposed Pandyan capital] N?gapuram is on the border of this river? Maybe because at the time of the late Pandyas (from the second third of the 14th c. onwards, after the establishment of the Sultanate of Madurai), their real capital was no longer in Madurai (even if they never stopped in their inscriptions to symbolically present themselves as the true rulers of Madurai); "they found themselves restricted to their more southern possessions" (K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, The Pandyan Kingdom, 1929, p. 217) in the regions of Srivilliputur, Tenkasi and Tirunelveli. >>>> >>>> I am not sure that more historical importance has to be ascribed to this possibly "new" location of N?gapura by Dak?i??vartan?tha, who is a rather fanciful commentator. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Christophe Vielle >>>> >>>> Le 29 ao?t 2017 ? 23:27, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> If the question is really about the river mentioned by a commentator, there is no river in Tamil Nadu called K?yaku??. If one considers the possibility that this name is a translation of some Tamil name, one has to allow for ?losses in translation?. According to Monier Williams, k?ya also means "assemblage , collection , multitude SaddhP.? This seems to be a synonym of sa?gha (perhaps referring to the legendary Tamil assembly in Madurai) or a translation of ?Ta. K??al?, another name of the city of Madurai. >>>>> >>>>> If it was related to the city called uraga, there was a discussion in Indology earlier such as >>>>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/1999-March/016494.html >>>>> >>>>> I was not able to navigate and get to all the posts from this link. You may want to do a search on ?uraga? and look at the posts. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Palaniappan >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 29, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The name of this river is reminding of 'K?yal', the name of the emporium in the delta of the Tamraparni (Tinnevelly District) referred to by Marco Polo (https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/polo/marco/travels/book3.21.html - cf. K?lkhoi emporion, Ptolemy Geogr. 7, 1, 10). But the Tamil word k?yal ('backwater, mouth of a stream") is far from the meaning of "Curve of the body" (ku?? is found in several words for/names of "curving" rivers). The T?mrapar?? herself is described by K?lid?sa in 4.50 (53 crit. ed. Goodall & Isaacson). >>>>>> This explanation of N?ga(/Uraga)-pura as a city on the border of the K?yaku?? river in the P???ya country was already made by Dak?i??vartan?tha (13th-14th c.) in his unpublished d?pik? on the Raghuva??a according to N. P. Unni (Highways and Byways in Sanskrit Literature, Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2012, p. 159, who relies on a KUML transcript-manuscript). It is in this case (like in other) the source of Aru?agirin?tha (contemporary of Mallin?tha, early 15th century - the latter who also sometimes uses Dak?i??vartan?tha has possibly misread his source here or, as you guess, his text has been later corrupted), himself followed by N?r?ya?a Pa??ita. >>>>>> The commentary of Vallabhadeva could be useful here, but I have not Goodall & Isaacson edition at hand. >>>>>> On his side, the commentator Hem?dri says: urag?khyasyeti kalpit?rtham. >>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>>> Christophe Vielle >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 28 ao?t 2017 ? 21:34, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In Raghuvamsa 6th Canto and Verse 58 or 59 >>>>>>> ???????????? ?????? ???? first foot says about Nagapura or Uragapura >>>>>>> Mallinatha explains as ??????????????????????????? but this seems to be a mistake as Kanouj is on the North of India , whereas the poet in further verses clearly places it on the south. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And on further search I found Arunagirinatha and Narayana in the commentary to the above mentioned verse give the details as the place in the bank of the river ??????? >>>>>>> ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???????????... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does any one knows about this river or its modern name kindly inform. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also believe that even Mallinatha has written ??????? as the name is not famous that must be due to ??????????? scribal error occurred >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> Correction : >>>>>> Not ??????? >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>>> ??????????????????? >>>>>> Christophe Vielle >>>>>> Louvain-la-Neuve >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> ??????????????????? >>>> Christophe Vielle >>>> Louvain-la-Neuve >>>> >>> >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Dominic Goodall ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient, 19, rue Dumas, Pondicherry 605001 Tel. +91 413 2334539 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Sat Sep 9 11:35:24 2017 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Franco) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 13:35:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C6309F@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: The term svapnAntika-jnAna is sometimes explained so (i.e. An awareness that is part of a dream and in which one is aware that one dreams). Best wishes, Eli Sent from my iPad > On 9 Sep 2017, at 12:22, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > > I forgot to add that the mahAjagrat "great awakening" of the MokSopaya, > discussed by Juergen Hanneder in his very interesting contribution to > http://indologica.de/drupal/?q=node/652 > ( a book that may be in any case pertinent) > also seems to intimate lucid dreaming. As Hanneder puts it (p. 93) > "a dream world (svapna) becomes a new waking state...." > > - Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 12:45:26 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 18:15:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yoga nidra of Hatha Yoga Pradipika ( 4-49 ) is expalined as having this as a part. On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Franco via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > The term svapnAntika-jnAna is sometimes explained so (i.e. An awareness > that is part of a dream and in which one is aware that one dreams). > Best wishes, > Eli > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9 Sep 2017, at 12:22, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > I forgot to add that the mahAjagrat "great awakening" of the MokSopaya, > discussed by Juergen Hanneder in his very interesting contribution to > http://indologica.de/drupal/?q=node/652 > ( a book that may be in any case pertinent) > also seems to intimate lucid dreaming. As Hanneder puts it (p. 93) > "a dream world (svapna) becomes a new waking state...." > > - Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Sat Sep 9 14:22:00 2017 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 14:22:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] SANSKRIT IN CROATIA: FROM SARASVATI TO HRVATI by James Cooper November, 2015 Message-ID: Dear List, The following article may be interesting to read. SANSKRIT IN CROATIA: FROM SARASVATI TO HRVATI by James Cooper November, 2015 http://www.sutrajournal.com/sanskrit-in-croatia-from-sarasvati-to-hrvati-by-james-cooper [http://sutrajournal.com/images/2015/nov/glagoljica-4.jpg] Sanskrit in Croatia From Sarasvati to Hrvati by James ... www.sutrajournal.com For most of the Croatian people (or as they call themselves, Hrvati) when it comes to defining their origins and tracing their ancient roots they turn towards the ... Warm Regards Debabrata Chakrabarti ???This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.??? ??? Anandamayi Ma ???Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.??? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 18:57:49 2017 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 00:27:49 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Vaidyan=C4=81tha_Tatsat?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I would be very thankful if anyone could direct me to any biographical etc sources on Vaidyanaatha Tatsat, who - among many other texts - has composed the Ala.mkaaracandrikaa on the Kuvalayaananda. The NCC (vol 32) lists a great variety of texts attributed to the author, none of which (apart from the above) is available to me. It mentions further that he was a son of someone Raamacandra (this info is, in fact, found in the concluding verses of the Ala.mkaaracandrikaa) and grandson of Vi.t.thala Bha.t.ta . Any clues on these? Any hints for possible directions of inquiry would be very much appreciated! best regards, Andrey Klebanov Sent from my iPhone From glhart at berkeley.edu Sat Sep 9 23:36:34 2017 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 17 19:36:34 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1E427098-807A-4377-9265-0A85C02B5727@berkeley.edu> This is somewhat off the topic, but the discussion of dreams reminded me of a curious reference to dreaming in the Akan????u (poem 303 by Auvaiy?r): I was afraid others might know what happened between us and, just as a demon never tells his dreams, I hid my secret, yet now that he has gone, my desire, so subtle and filled with every sort of goodness, has turned into gossip that, as it rises, is like the rushing waterfall 5 spreading from the summit of great Kolli mountain with its demon-haunted spaces and clouds that rain willingly, ruled by Po?aiya? whose ornaments are of fresh gold, whose army is valiant, whose spear brings victory. Here is my note on the second line: 2. ?Just as a demon never tells his dreams? is p?ey ka??a ka?avil. This is K?s interpretation, while K2 takes its other possible meaning: ?like a dream (you have) of a demon.? He remarks that people do not tell others about their nightmares. If K2 is correct, one would expect the k of ka??a to be doubled, which it is not. I am wondering whether anyone on the list has come across anything in Sanskrit that would throw light on this. George Hart > On Sep 9, 2017, at 8:45 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Yoga nidra of Hatha Yoga Pradipika ( 4-49 ) is expalined as having this as a part. > > On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Franco via INDOLOGY > wrote: > The term svapnAntika-jnAna is sometimes explained so (i.e. An awareness that is part of a dream and in which one is aware that one dreams). > Best wishes, > Eli > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 9 Sep 2017, at 12:22, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: > >> I forgot to add that the mahAjagrat "great awakening" of the MokSopaya, >> discussed by Juergen Hanneder in his very interesting contribution to >> http://indologica.de/drupal/?q=node/652 >> ( a book that may be in any case pertinent) >> also seems to intimate lucid dreaming. As Hanneder puts it (p. 93) >> "a dream world (svapna) becomes a new waking state...." >> >> - Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Sep 10 08:36:46 2017 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 08:36:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet Message-ID: Dear list members, I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but only for one or two letters. This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list is no longer active. With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Sep 10 08:54:24 2017 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 10:54:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Tieken, Would this be of help? http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/tamil.htm Best, Artur Karp 2017-09-10 10:36 GMT+02:00 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear list members, > I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the > Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but > only for one or two letters. > This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc > Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list > is no longer active. > With kind regards, Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 09:16:05 2017 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 11:16:05 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5a629555-71ac-3d30-5ed5-479d51d09ff1@gmail.com> Many thanks to all who replied to this query. So far there seems to be precious little material on lucid dreaming in Sanskrit, particularly in non-Buddhist sources. The reference to Pata?jali is presumably to YS (or PY?, if one prefers) 1.38, but the connection looks slim to nonexistent to me; the same is true of Ha?ha(yoga)prad?pik? 4.49, though I haven't explored any commentarial literature on that passage. The Hanneder/Mok?op?ya reference sounds more promising, and I'll try to follow it up. Eli Franco mentioned the term svapn?ntika-j??na, but not where it is found; I see that Monier-Williams (following B?htlingk/Roth) gives the Vai?e?ikas?tra as a source for svapn?ntika -- an unlikely place for a discussion of lucid dreaming, I'd have thought, but worth looking up. Thanks again, Martin G. From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Sep 10 09:21:30 2017 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 09:21:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Professor Karp, No, this is not what I am looking for, I am looking for instruction material on how to write Tamil letters (and conjuncts) with a pen. Where to begin and where to finish. With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Artur Karp [karp at uw.edu.pl] Verzonden: zondag 10 september 2017 10:54 Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. CC: Indology Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet Dear Prof. Tieken, Would this be of help? http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/tamil.htm Best, Artur Karp 2017-09-10 10:36 GMT+02:00 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY >: Dear list members, I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but only for one or two letters. This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list is no longer active. With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 09:58:43 2017 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 10:58:43 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <5a629555-71ac-3d30-5ed5-479d51d09ff1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Martin, In addition to the references already given, you may want to have a look at the book The Indian Night: Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture, ed. by C. Bautze-Picron, Delhi: Rupa & Co. 2009. >From the Foreword: "The papers included in the present publication derive from a conference on "Le sommeil dans le monde indien. Eclairages comparatifs" (Sleep and Dreams in the Indian World. Comparative Englightenments) held at the University of Paris-3, Sorbonne Nouvelle, in April 2004, 5th-7th, under the patronage of the University of Paris-3 and the National Centre for Scientific Research." Here's the ToC: The Indian Night - Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture ed. by Claudine Bautze-Picron Delhi: Rupa & Co., 2009 Contents Foreword vii The Physiology of Dreams 1. Dream Physiology: A Western View on Dreams Jean-Louis Valatx 3 2. Dreaming and Dying in Indian Mythology and AAyurvedic Classical Texts Martin Mittwede 21 The Meaning of Dream 3. A Song Against Bad Dreams: Magic, Superstition or Psychology? J.E.M. Houben 37 4. Dreams and other States of Consciousness in the Mok.sopaaya1 Juergen Hanneder 64 Dreams and Sleep in Praxis 5. How to sleep? What to dream? Nalini Balbir 103 6. Dreams in the ;Saivite Practice Marie-Luce Barazer-Billoret 159 7. Dreams and Transgressions in the Sanskrit Prescriptive Texts Jean Fezas 173 8. The Role of Dreams in Accessing Higher States of Consciousness as Practised in a Contemporary Indian Ashram Madhu Tandan 192 Dreams and Sleep in Language and Literature 9. Sleep and Dream in the Lexicon of the Indo-European Languages Georges-Jean Pinault 225 10. Common Dream and its Interpretation according to Indian narrative Material Jean-Pierre Osier 260 11. Between Dream and Reality: Literary Function of Dreams Sylvain Brocquet 275 12. Sleep and Dreams in the Raama-Kathaas Eva De Clercq 303 13. The Nightmare in Tamil Short Stories Chantal Delamourd 329 Dreams in Buddhism 14. Maayaa's Dream Anna Maria Quagliotti 349 15. The Presence of Five Dreams Claudine Bautze-Picron 418 16. Dreams about the Buddha's Departure Serinity Young 452 17. Riding the Ass Daniele Masset 468 Dreams from Abroad 18. The Role of Dreams in Muslim Mysticism Pierre Lory 493 19. Good Dreams, Bad Dreams, in the History of Japanese Civilisation Hartmut O. Rotermund 506 Images of Dreams and Sleep 20. Representations of Vi.s.nu's Cosmic Sleep in Nepalese Sculpture Anne-Claire Juramie 539 21. ;Sayana Forms of Devii in Sculptural Tradition from Central India Anne Casile 566 22. Two Illustrated Manuscripts on Dreams and Omens Joachim K. Bautze 615 The Authors 653 *** *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite Professor of South Asian History and Philology *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 10 September 2017 at 10:16, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Many thanks to all who replied to this query. So far there seems to be > precious little material on lucid dreaming in Sanskrit, particularly in > non-Buddhist sources. The reference to Pata?jali is presumably to YS (or > PY?, if one prefers) 1.38, but the connection looks slim to nonexistent to > me; the same is true of Ha?ha(yoga)prad?pik? 4.49, though I haven't > explored any commentarial literature on that passage. The > Hanneder/Mok?op?ya reference sounds more promising, and I'll try to follow > it up. Eli Franco mentioned the term svapn?ntika-j??na, but not where it is > found; I see that Monier-Williams (following B?htlingk/Roth) gives the > Vai?e?ikas?tra as a source for svapn?ntika -- an unlikely place for a > discussion of lucid dreaming, I'd have thought, but worth looking up. > > Thanks again, > Martin G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Sep 10 12:39:31 2017 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 07:39:31 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39D8AF4C-C610-42A2-AADB-2D874D061C2E@aol.com> How about http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/tamilweb/mkletter.html? Regards, Palaniappan Sent from my iPad > On Sep 10, 2017, at 4:21 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Professor Karp, > No, this is not what I am looking for, I am looking for instruction material on how to write Tamil letters (and conjuncts) with a pen. Where to begin and where to finish. > With kind regards, Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > Van: Artur Karp [karp at uw.edu.pl] > Verzonden: zondag 10 september 2017 10:54 > Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. > CC: Indology > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet > > Dear Prof. Tieken, > > Would this be of help? > > http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/tamil.htm > > Best, > > Artur Karp > > 2017-09-10 10:36 GMT+02:00 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY : >> Dear list members, >> I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but only for one or two letters. >> This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list is no longer active. >> With kind regards, Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website: hermantieken.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Sep 10 13:06:07 2017 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 08:06:07 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: <39D8AF4C-C610-42A2-AADB-2D874D061C2E@aol.com> Message-ID: <595A9190-D8C8-4D72-A59B-0FD08B028853@aol.com> And this http://sites.la.utexas.edu/tamilscript/handwriting Regards, Palaniappan Sent from my iPad > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > How about http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/tamilweb/mkletter.html? > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 4:21 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> Dear Professor Karp, >> No, this is not what I am looking for, I am looking for instruction material on how to write Tamil letters (and conjuncts) with a pen. Where to begin and where to finish. >> With kind regards, Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website: hermantieken.com >> Van: Artur Karp [karp at uw.edu.pl] >> Verzonden: zondag 10 september 2017 10:54 >> Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. >> CC: Indology >> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet >> >> Dear Prof. Tieken, >> >> Would this be of help? >> >> http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/tamil.htm >> >> Best, >> >> Artur Karp >> >> 2017-09-10 10:36 GMT+02:00 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY : >>> Dear list members, >>> I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but only for one or two letters. >>> This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list is no longer active. >>> With kind regards, Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website: hermantieken.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Sun Sep 10 14:46:04 2017 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 14:46:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42C99B4C-E76F-4453-BB4F-39A6BF848016@austin.utexas.edu> I wonder whether anyon would have access to electronic versions of these articles: Sasaki, Shizuka. 1992. "Sanghabheda", Buddhist Studies (Bukkyo Kenkyu) 21, 157-176. Sasaki, Shizuka. 1988. "Buddhist Sects in the Asokan Period (!): The Meaning of the Schism Edict", Buddhist Studies (Bukkyo Kenkyu) 18, 181-202. Bechert, Heinz. 1982. "The Importance of Asoka's So-called Schism Edict", Indological and Buddhist Studies, Volume in Honour of Professor J. W de Jong ... , ed. L. A. Hercus, F. B. Kuiper et a!., Canberra, 61-68. Thank you very much. Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 15:21:44 2017 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 20:51:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: <595A9190-D8C8-4D72-A59B-0FD08B028853@aol.com> Message-ID: <5CE8F38B-A03E-40ED-BD87-95B973A59325@gmail.com> Dear Prof Tieken, I found the following to be very useful: http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/tamil/pdf/tamschri.pdf best, Andrey Sent from my iPhone > On 10. Sep 2017, at 18:36, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY wrote: > > And this http://sites.la.utexas.edu/tamilscript/handwriting > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >> >> How about http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/tamilweb/mkletter.html? >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 4:21 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> >>> Dear Professor Karp, >>> No, this is not what I am looking for, I am looking for instruction material on how to write Tamil letters (and conjuncts) with a pen. Where to begin and where to finish. >>> With kind regards, Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website: hermantieken.com >>> Van: Artur Karp [karp at uw.edu.pl] >>> Verzonden: zondag 10 september 2017 10:54 >>> Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. >>> CC: Indology >>> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet >>> >>> Dear Prof. Tieken, >>> >>> Would this be of help? >>> >>> http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/tamil.htm >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur Karp >>> >>> 2017-09-10 10:36 GMT+02:00 Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY : >>>> Dear list members, >>>> I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but only for one or two letters. >>>> This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list is no longer active. >>>> With kind regards, Herman >>>> >>>> Herman Tieken >>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>> The Netherlands >>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>> website: hermantieken.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tlighthiser at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 16:06:43 2017 From: tlighthiser at gmail.com (Timothy P. Lighthiser) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 10:06:43 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PDF_of_Vol._5_of_the_PTS's_version_of_the_Papa=C3=B1cas=C5=ABdan=C4=AB=3F?= Message-ID: Hello! Does anyone happen to have a relatively easy to access PDF of this text that they would be willing to share? Please note that I have already looked on Archive,org which has only Volume 1. Thank you! t -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu Sun Sep 10 17:03:44 2017 From: Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu (Clough, Bradley) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 17:03:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF of Article about Hindu Views of Buddhism Message-ID: <728284D2-8D4D-46D5-A25B-220D4665CDC3@mso.umt.edu> Dear Colleagues, I would be most grateful if anyone could send me a scan/PDF of the following article: Klaus Klostermaier, ?Hindu Views of Buddhism,? in Canadian Contributions to Buddhist Studies, ed. R. Amore (Waterloo: Wilfred Laurie University Press, 1979), 60-82. Many thanks in advance! Yours, Brad Dr. Bradley S. Clough Global Humanities and Religions LA 101 The University of Montana 32 Campus Drive Missoula, MT 59812 bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu Phone: 406-243-2837 Fax: 406-243-4076 From martingansten at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 17:36:04 2017 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 19:36:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Additional thanks to Jan Houben and Eli Franco. The volume Jan mentions (/The Indian Night: Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture/) is the one also referenced by Matthew Kapstein as containing, inter alia, J?rg Hanneder's piece on dreams in the Mok?op?ya. I had the chance to glance over that particular chapter, sent to me by a kind list member, earlier today; it was very interesting, but not really about lucid dreaming in the usual sense of the term. Martin G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 17:42:57 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 23:12:57 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following book in its starting pages has images of Tamil script symbols with arrow marks inside image guiding how to move the pencil/pen to write that script symbol : https://www.amazon.in/dp/1553940423/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=cd818f9c-142a-4b42-ad2c-f0421857aaf5&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=812881186X&pf_rd_m=A1VBAL9TL5WCBF&pf_rd_r=C845Y25R2RT1B1T9FA4A&pf_rd_r=C845Y25R2RT1B1T9FA4A&pf_rd_p=cd818f9c-142a-4b42-ad2c-f0421857aaf5 On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the > Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but > only for one or two letters. > This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc > Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list > is no longer active. > With kind regards, Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 17:44:45 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 23:14:45 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I shall scan the pages and upload soon. On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > The following book in its starting pages has images of Tamil script > symbols with arrow marks inside image guiding how to move the pencil/pen to > write that script symbol : > > https://www.amazon.in/dp/1553940423/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ > ss_2?pf_rd_p=cd818f9c-142a-4b42-ad2c-f0421857aaf5&pf_rd_ > s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=812881186X&pf_rd_m= > A1VBAL9TL5WCBF&pf_rd_r=C845Y25R2RT1B1T9FA4A&pf_rd_r= > C845Y25R2RT1B1T9FA4A&pf_rd_p=cd818f9c-142a-4b42-ad2c-f0421857aaf5 > > On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write the >> Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film but >> only for one or two letters. >> This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc >> Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list >> is no longer active. >> With kind regards, Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website: hermantieken.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Sep 10 18:04:42 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 17 23:34:42 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil alphabet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWMX8Zr_Td4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoEIiP4Z4hM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMCCARbado On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > I shall scan the pages and upload soon. > > On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> The following book in its starting pages has images of Tamil script >> symbols with arrow marks inside image guiding how to move the pencil/pen to >> write that script symbol : >> >> https://www.amazon.in/dp/1553940423/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2? >> pf_rd_p=cd818f9c-142a-4b42-ad2c-f0421857aaf5&pf_rd_s=lpo- >> top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=812881186X&pf_rd_m=A1VBAL9TL >> 5WCBF&pf_rd_r=C845Y25R2RT1B1T9FA4A&pf_rd_r=C845Y25R2RT1B1T9F >> A4A&pf_rd_p=cd818f9c-142a-4b42-ad2c-f0421857aaf5 >> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members, >>> I am looking for a pdf of a booklet with instructions on how to write >>> the Tamil alphabet, or else a link to a (you tube) film. I did find a film >>> but only for one or two letters. >>> This is a question which I would normally have submitted to Jean-Luc >>> Chevillard's Classical Tamil list, but I have the impression that this list >>> is no longer active. >>> With kind regards, Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website: hermantieken.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 04:09:52 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 09:39:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sharing the snapshot of Muktibodhananda's commentary on Hatha Yoga Pradipika On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 11:06 PM, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Additional thanks to Jan Houben and Eli Franco. The volume Jan mentions (*The > Indian Night: Sleep and Dreams in Indian Culture*) is the one also > referenced by Matthew Kapstein as containing, inter alia, J?rg Hanneder's > piece on dreams in the Mok?op?ya. I had the chance to glance over that > particular chapter, sent to me by a kind list member, earlier today; it was > very interesting, but not really about lucid dreaming in the usual sense of > the term. > > Martin G. > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HYPMuktibodhayoganidra.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 222563 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 04:33:09 2017 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 10:03:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] article access Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, It seems that somehow I still cannot have access to the following article even if I have access to the *Journal of Indian Philosophy* through several platforms. Would somebody be kind enough to send this article to me if they have access to it? *Fathers, sons and gurus: Oedipal conflict in the Sanskrit epics* *Journal of Indian Philosophy, 1978, Volume 6, Number 4, Page 325* *R. P. Goldman* Thanks very much in advance. Thanks. Mrinal Kaul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 06:28:42 2017 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 11:58:42 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] article access In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks very much to Prof Roland Steiner and Prof Luis Gonzalez-Riemann ?. I now have the article. Thanks very much indeed to both of you. Best wishes. Mrinal Kaul? On 11 September 2017 at 10:03, Mrinal Kaul wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > It seems that somehow I still cannot have access to the following article > even if I have access to the *Journal of Indian Philosophy* through > several platforms. Would somebody be kind enough to send this article to me > if they have access to it? > > *Fathers, sons and gurus: Oedipal conflict in the Sanskrit epics* > *Journal of Indian Philosophy, 1978, Volume 6, Number 4, Page 325* > *R. P. Goldman* > > Thanks very much in advance. Thanks. > > Mrinal Kaul > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martingansten at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 06:53:01 2017 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 08:53:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <857a39dc-bea6-ebb5-9e13-934d21c0d83c@gmail.com> Thank you, Nagaraj. This is obviously a modern commentary, though, and (only?) in English. Perhaps the author is this Muktibodhananda? I can't help wondering if her understanding is shared by earlier commentators. Martin G. Den 2017-09-11 kl. 06:09, skrev Nagaraj Paturi: > Sharing the snapshot of Muktibodhananda's commentary on Hatha Yoga > Pradipika -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Mon Sep 11 07:52:00 2017 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 09:52:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <857a39dc-bea6-ebb5-9e13-934d21c0d83c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170911095200.18dd5bf7be9f867b36524275@ff.cuni.cz> For the term yoganidr? and its meanings in yogic texts cf. very informative entry at the blog The Luminescent written by Jason Birch and Jacqueline Hargreaves "Yoganidr?: An Understanding of the History and Context": http://theluminescent.blogspot.cz/2015_01_01_archive.html Briefly, yoganidr? has no connection to lucid dreaming, it is either one of the synonyms for sam?dhi (early meaning), or the name of the ?sana (modern practice: ?av?sana combined with dissolution of the mind and other techniques). Best, Lubomir On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 08:53:01 +0200 Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY wrote: > Thank you, Nagaraj. This is obviously a modern commentary, though, and > (only?) in English. Perhaps the author is this > Muktibodhananda? I can't > help wondering if her understanding is shared by earlier commentators. > > Martin G. > > Den 2017-09-11 kl. 06:09, skrev Nagaraj Paturi: > > Sharing the snapshot of Muktibodhananda's commentary on Hatha Yoga > > Pradipika > From martingansten at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 08:29:10 2017 From: martingansten at gmail.com (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 10:29:10 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <17486D4B-72E9-4C20-BD37-6B1521D3BDED@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thank you, Jim and Lubom?r, for the confirmation and the very useful link! Martin Den 2017-09-11 kl. 09:32, skrev James Mallinson: > Dear Martin, > > Muktibodh?nanda's understanding of yoganidr? is indeed modern. For an > analysis of earlier usages, see this blogpost > ?by Jason > Birch and Jacqueline Hargreaves. In short, yoganidr? in yogic texts > usually means the state of sam?dhi, in which there is no conscious > activity. > > Yours, with best wishes, > > Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 09:25:05 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 14:55:05 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lucid dreaming in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good to know that the modern commentary is not acceptable. On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Martin Gansten via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thank you, Jim and Lubom?r, for the confirmation and the very useful link! > > Martin > > > Den 2017-09-11 kl. 09:32, skrev James Mallinson: > > Dear Martin, > > Muktibodh?nanda's understanding of yoganidr? is indeed modern. For an > analysis of earlier usages, see this blogpost > by Jason > Birch and Jacqueline Hargreaves. In short, yoganidr? in yogic texts usually > means the state of sam?dhi, in which there is no conscious activity. > > Yours, with best wishes, > > Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Sep 11 16:42:44 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 17 10:42:44 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Vaidyan=C4=81tha_Tatsat?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Andrey, Nowadays it is also worth consulting Panditproject.org for prosopographical queries such as yours. There is an entry on Vaidyan?tha Tatsat , with some bibliography. This may or may not provide information new to you, but as a resource it is growing rapidly. And you may sign up and make your own contributions. Best, Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 9 September 2017 at 12:57, Andrey Klebanov via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > > I would be very thankful if anyone could direct me to any biographical etc > sources on Vaidyanaatha Tatsat, who - among many other texts - has composed > the Ala.mkaaracandrikaa on the Kuvalayaananda. The NCC (vol 32) lists a > great variety of texts attributed to the author, none of which (apart from > the above) is available to me. It mentions further that he was a son of > someone Raamacandra (this info is, in fact, found in the concluding verses > of the Ala.mkaaracandrikaa) and grandson of Vi.t.thala Bha.t.ta . Any clues > on these? > Any hints for possible directions of inquiry would be very much > appreciated! > > best regards, > Andrey Klebanov > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Tue Sep 12 12:28:31 2017 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 17 17:58:31 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indian Numerals- Shobhana Gokhale Message-ID: Dear List members I am searching for the pdf of the book Indian Numerals by Shobhana Gokhale. Please share if anyone has the pdf regards Rupali Mokashi *http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manjushree42 at gmail.com Thu Sep 14 05:20:19 2017 From: manjushree42 at gmail.com (Manjushree Hegde) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 17 10:50:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Papers - Seminar on Temples: Symbolism, Art and Architecture. Message-ID: Dear scholars, We are ?delighted to inform you that Amrita Darshanam ? International Centre for Spiritual Studies, in association with the Ministry of Culture (South zone cultural centre, Tanjavur) is organizing a three-day national workshop on ?*Temples: Symbolism, Art and Architecture*? from January 5th to 7th, 2017 at Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Bangalore. Graduate students and scholars engaged in original research on temple rituals, festivals and related *?gama*-s, architectural styles and temple history, classical art forms and traditional learning associated with temples, socio-economic & cultural significance of temples, and other related themes are encouraged to apply. 300-word paper abstracts must be sent to j_arjun at blr.amrita.edu by October 20, 2017. Decisions will be communicated by October 25, 2017. Registration is free but essential. Please refer to attached brochure for more information. You may share this with all interested students, researchers, friends and colleagues, and research groups. With best wishes, Manjushree Hegde, Assistant Professor, Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetham, Ettimadai, Coimbatore-641112. +91-8277744095 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AD_NationalSeminaronTemples_Brochure.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 769457 bytes Desc: not available URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Thu Sep 14 11:45:56 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 17 11:45:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Message-ID: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523BCE50E@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Thu Sep 14 12:54:44 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 17 14:54:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New book on the Pallavas Message-ID: <8ECF8387-8ABE-4BBF-BDF7-822B8E2E9278@uclouvain.be> Dear List, it is an honor for me to announce the release of the second, concluding, volume of Emmanuel FRANCIS' Le discours royal dans l?Inde du Sud ancienne: Inscriptions et monuments pallava (IV?me-IX?me si?cles), Louvain-la-Neuve: Universit? catholique de Louvain - Peeters Publ., T. I : Introduction et sources, 2013 (Publications de l'Institut Orientaliste de Louvain, 64), xlii pp. + pp. 1-320 (including 5 maps, 3 plans and 254 ill.) isbn: 978-90-429-2688-2 (http://www.peeters-leuven.be/boekoverz.asp?nr=9131) T. II : Mythes dynastiques et pan?gyriques, 2017 (Publications de l'Institut Orientaliste de Louvain, 65), xl pp. + pp. 321-809 (including indices) isbn: 978-90-429-3229-6 (http://www.peeters-leuven.be/boekoverz.asp?nr=9991) This book is an in-depth study of the royal ideology of the Pallava dynasty (South India, 4th-9th c. CE). These Hindu kings have left numerous and diverse sources evincing their conceptions of the world and the society, and particularly their self-representation of kingship. Through the examination of epigraphical and iconographical panegyrics as well as of coinage and Tamil court poetry (Nantikkalampakam), the argument is that, beside the brahmanical model of subordination of king to brahmin, there existed a specific royal discourse, at times contentious. The crucial point of divergence is the Pallavas? claim to the double status of kings and brahmins. In this respect, kingship asserts its independence vis-?-vis the brahmanical class by incorporating it in its lineage, thus achieving the union of ?temporal? and ?spiritual? powers. The first volume contains the introduction and the presentation of the sources. The first part is a general presentation of Hindu kingship and the Pallava dynasty (origin, history, art). The second part draws up and presents the sources considered as testimonies of the royal discourse, contrasting them with other Pallava-period sources of ?local? nature. It concludes with considerations about the royal panegyric and the nature of royal sources (issuers, functions, addressees). The second volume offers, in the third part, an analysis of royal genealogies and dynastic myths of the Pallavas from epigraphical sources. The fourth, fifth and sixth parts investigate the content and development of the epigraphical and iconographical panegyric of the Pallavas in the course of the three successive periods in the history of the dynasty: the era of d?na (ca. 300-550), the era of monuments (ca. 550-730) and the era of decline (ca. 730-900). Here attached, the Table of contents. Scholars interested by reviewing this book (viz. the set of two volumes) in an Indological periodical are invited to contact me (connexions with Annali, BEFEO, IIJ and JAOS have already been, or are in course to be, made). Best wishes, Christophe Vielle ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve Editor, Publications de l'Institut Orientaliste de Louvain series - Last Indological issues: PIOL nos 53, 60, 63, 64 - Still available: Mah?praj??p?ramit???stra (vols 1-2-3-4-5), Asa?ga's Mah?y?nasa?graha, Vimalak?rtinirde?a, Lamotte's History of Indian Buddhism, etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: E.Francis_Pallavas_ToC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 939988 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PIOL64-Cover.gif Type: image/gif Size: 59311 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PIOL65-Cover.gif Type: image/gif Size: 89933 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk Thu Sep 14 15:51:36 2017 From: Naomi.Appleton at ed.ac.uk (APPLETON Naomi) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 17 15:51:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions 2018 Message-ID: <18961DA8-FCE4-437A-B7C7-37B8244F1634@ed.ac.uk> Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions Call for papers: 2018 Symposium We invite proposals for papers for the 43rd Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions, which will be held at Durham University, on 13th-15th April 2018. There is no theme this year, and so we welcome papers that address any aspect of the religions of South Asia, based upon any research methods, including textual, historical, ethnographic, sociological and philosophical. Presenters are allocated forty minutes for their paper and twenty minutes for discussion, and will normally be expected to pay their own conference registration and expenses. The Symposium fee, including food and accommodation, is predicted to be ?185, with a non-residential rate of ?90. Registration details will be released in the new year. Limited financial assistance may be available for early career scholars or scholars from South Asia. If your participation depends upon such support please indicate this when you submit your abstract. We also welcome proposals from doctoral students, who will be allocated twenty minutes for their paper and ten minutes for discussion, and offered free registration at the Symposium (including accommodation). We are delighted to announce our keynote speakers: Kunal Chakrabarti, Professor of Ancient Indian History at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU), Delhi, and Eleanor Nesbitt, Professor Emeritus at the University of Warwick. Professor Chakrabarti will offer us a paper entitled ?Laksmi's Other: Brahmanical Construction of a Negative Goddess?, while Professor Nesbitt will speak on ?Sikhs through the eyes of western women 1809 to 2012?. If you would like to give a paper, please send a title and abstract (maximum 500 words) to Dr Naomi Appleton, naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk, by Friday 10th November 2017. Further information about the Symposium can be found on our website, spaldingsymposium.org, where you can also sign up to receive details of the programme and booking information when available. -------------------------------- Dr Naomi Appleton Senior Lecturer in Asian Religions School of Divinity, University of Edinburgh naomi.appleton at ed.ac.uk www.naomiappleton.wordpress.com The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Sep 14 19:41:18 2017 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 17 15:41:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On the Book: "On Meaning an Mantras: Essays in Honor of Frits Staal" Message-ID: Dear List, Thanks to Christophe Vielle, it has come to our attention that our book in honor of Frits Staal, published by the Institute of Buddhist Studies last year, has been difficult [or maybe impossible] to order online because of problems with the website of the University Press of Hawaii, which distributes it. Christophe has informed us that this press has no record whatsoever of our book dedicated to Frits on their website. This is a shocking and dismaying thing. Richard and I have worked very hard to publish this book. To learn now that the books are sitting in a warehouse somewhere and that there is no means to order a copy is very frustrating for us, who have labored so long on it. In any case, Richard has assured me that this error has now been corrected, and that ordering this book from the press should now be easy. I edited this volume as an homage to a great Vedicist and a dear friend. It is very disappointing to have learned about this delay in the book's distribution. With best wishes to all, and with apologies for this delay, George Thompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr Fri Sep 15 00:41:35 2017 From: andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr (Andrea Acri) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 06:11:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523BCE50E@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4071E945-4486-4FEE-A4C7-D6D926FC7450@ephe.sorbonne.fr> Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone > On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol > > I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. > > The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: > > Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD > Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD > 790 (20.6%) 868calAD > Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD > > We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Fri Sep 15 07:01:35 2017 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 09:01:35 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <4071E945-4486-4FEE-A4C7-D6D926FC7450@ephe.sorbonne.fr> Message-ID: I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give qualified statements. A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript was brought to the public in 1995: Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. The individual *ak?ara*s of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): [image: Inline-Bild 1] Best regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear Camillo > > thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work > on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that > all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and > Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please > forgive me for being so naive. > > If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a > single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) > must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about > this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were > centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an > analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of > the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian > inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the > article). > > But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of > ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a > composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to > the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your > key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the > relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? > > Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the > full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): > > "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own > right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? > indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but > here the answer is left blank". > > Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this > point. > > Best regards > Andrea Acri > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado- > about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol > > > > I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after > reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to > me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several > implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our > field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t > answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to > briefly anticipate some of them. > > > > The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali > manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of > colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the > Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell > (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of > the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), > Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and > Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the > School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du > Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science > and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take > samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of > certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis > was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The > results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as > follows: > > > > Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD > > Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD > > 790 (20.6%) 868calAD > > Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD > > > > We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three > folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the > background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all > ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the > different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other > dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a > first palaeographical appraisal of the results. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Sep 15 10:26:53 2017 From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 10:26:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #483 Message-ID: GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Texts added: Aryasura: Jatakamala (Ed. Hanisch) (Pseudo-)Jonaraja: Rajatarangini: analytic and plain text Samkara: Upadesasahasri Secondary Resources added: Benfey: A Sanskrit-English Dictionary Cappeller: A Sanskrit-English Dictionary Texts revised: Divyavadana Additionally, all dictionary files have been slightly revised, so as to make them available in a suitable format for use with free dictionary software. Since there is no standard format for this, I have chosen xdxf for now (see https://github.com/soshial/xdxf_makedict for format documentation), which is comparatively transparent and easy to convert into other formats. I have been testing these files with GoldenDict (version 1.5) for a couple of weeks now, and while there is certainly room for improvement, the core functionality of quick and easy, offline searching in multiple dictionaries simultaneously seems to work just fine. My testing, of course, cannot be exhaustive, so please do let me know if you do encounter any problems. As with all of GRETIL's files, corrections and suggestions for improvement are much appreciated. __________________________________________________________________________ GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From huesken at uni-heidelberg.de Fri Sep 15 15:50:16 2017 From: huesken at uni-heidelberg.de (=?utf-8?Q?Ute_H=C3=BCsken?=) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 17:50:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] reminder: September 30th deadline for applications for the course "Lived Sanskrit Cultures in Varanasi" (Feb. 19th to March 16th, 2018) Message-ID: <72c644cd-31de-2084-07fe-d904c1411400@uni-heidelberg.de> Dear Colleagues, we would like to alert you of the deadline for applications for the four week intensive course in Varanasi? (September, 30^th 2017). We would be grateful if you could widely circulate this call for applications among potential participants. The course *"Lived Sanskrit Cultures in Varanasi" * will take place in Varanasi from *19th Feb. to 16th Mar. 2018.* The course will be carried out by the Cultural and Religious History of South Asia (Classical Indology) department at Heidelberg University and the Indology department at W?rzburg University, in cooperation with Prof. Gopabandhu Mishra (BHU). Three broad areas will be covered: "Teaching Sanskrit and the Veda", "Performing Rituals", and "K???y?tr?: Processions in Varanasi".? An essential part of the course will be to include gender perspectives in the study of all the three mentioned areas. For further information please consult the following page: http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND//hdsanskrit/2018_varanasi.php With many greetings from Heidelberg and W?rzburg, J?rg Gengnagel Ute H?sken Anand Mishra -- Prof. Dr. Ute H?sken Head of the Department Cultural and Religious History of South Asia (Classical Indology) South Asia Institute Heidelberg University Im Neuenheimer Feld 330 69120 Heidelberg http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/huesken/huesken.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 16:04:38 2017 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 21:34:38 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] supparaka Jataka Message-ID: Dear List members I need a copy of the Supparaka Jataka. Please share if anyone has the same. regards Rupali Mokashi *http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 20:48:38 2017 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 16:48:38 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On the Book: "On Meaning an Mantras: Essays in Honor of Frits Staal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, For all of you who have informed me that the Staal Memorial volume is still not available on the UPH website, please take a deep breath, and let the press have some time to do what it has promised to do. Richard Payne and I know that there is a warehouse in Hawaii that has stacks of the book. I don't know what is wrong with UPH, but we have distributed two copies of the book to all of the contributors to it, and we have also sent gratis copies to Frits' family members. My understanding is that the book well be on sale at US$ 45.00. It includes 32 articles and amounts to 642 pages. This seems to me to a very reasonable price, for a lot of good scholarship. I am just as annoyed as everybody about this delay in the publication of this book, upon which I have worked for years. But I have a couple of copies of the book in hand here. When you see this book, I think that you will like it. Richard has done an excellent job of producing this book. Sincerely, George Thompson On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:41 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > Thanks to Christophe Vielle, it has come to our attention that our book in > honor of Frits Staal, published by the Institute of Buddhist Studies last > year, has been difficult [or maybe impossible] to order online because of > problems with the website of the University Press of Hawaii, which > distributes it. Christophe has informed us that this press has no record > whatsoever of our book dedicated to Frits on their website. This is a > shocking and dismaying thing. Richard and I have worked very hard to > publish this book. To learn now that the books are sitting in a warehouse > somewhere and that there is no means to order a copy is very frustrating > for us, who have labored so long on it. > > In any case, Richard has assured me that this error has now been > corrected, and that ordering this book from the press should now be easy. > > I edited this volume as an homage to a great Vedicist and a dear friend. > It is very disappointing to have learned about this delay in the book's > distribution. > > With best wishes to all, and with apologies for this delay, > > George Thompson > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 15 22:14:01 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 22:14:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <4071E945-4486-4FEE-A4C7-D6D926FC7450@ephe.sorbonne.fr> Message-ID: <75f52348-d607-467a-a1f5-4de1470b9e55@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Andrea, Many thanks for your enthusiasm about this discovery! I will try and reply to each point you raise, but allow me to quote at the outset a very telling passage written by Cecil Bendall in 1882, in his article On European Collections of Sanskrit Manuscripts from Nepal: Their Antiquity and Bearing on Chronology, History and Literature. When I was first told about the results of the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I did not believe it, in fact my very first thought was that they must had done something wrong at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. My second thought then was precisely that the scribe (or scribes) must had used old birch-bark sheets to write parts of the manuscript in later centuries. However, at that moment I was also working on an article on the history of the Cambridge collections of Sanskrit manuscripts and this quote by Cecil Bendall helped me to keep an open mind: "The early dates of some of these MSS. have been, indeed, received in some quarters with certain incredulity; but for myself, I must testify that, after about two years study, both of the great Cambridge collection, of which I have been during this time engaged in preparing a catalogue, and of various Buddhistic MSS. in other libraries, the truthfulness and genuineness of the colophons is placed in almost every case beyond a doubt by evidence both varied and conclusive." (Bendall 1882, 190). I think this is a very telling passage in which our attitude towards this type of discoveries is very aptly described. Apparently, we haven't changed much in the last one-hundred years. In the 19th century, some of our esteemed colleagues didn't even believe that the colophons of old Nepalese palm-leaf manuscripts were authentic. Surely, as we all know, there are cases of colophons of old antigraphs copied together with the main text into more recent apographs, but can we honestly say that they are the great majority of colophons of South Asian manuscripts? Let me now reply to your points. "If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized." On my part, I fail to see why you think more plausible that somebody reused 700-years old birch-bark sheets to write on it, when they could have used contemporary birch-bark sheet, which would have surely been less fragile. I rather think that we are dealing with a composite manuscript consisting of at least three distinct codicological units. Actually, what seems more plausible to me is exactly the reverse, that somebody supplemented the damaged parts of an old manuscript by copying them on new birch bark, as often is the case in old North Indian and Nepalese palm-leaf manuscripts with damaged folios (as for instance happened with this 11th century Nepalese palm-leaf manuscript: https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-01643/1). If you however think that your hypothesis is more plausible, then I have to say that I disagree with you. "(By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?)." It?s not as simple as you might think. It is something we are considering though, as this would be the only way to ascertain what really happened, whether the scribe (or scribes) used old birch-bark sheets to write a new text in the 10th century or if they replaced old and damaged sheets with new birch-bark sheets on which they copied the text of the damaged folios. "The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article)." Well, if you are convinced that the results of the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript are wrong, then you are right and the zero in 8th century Southeast Asian inscriptions would be the oldest attestation of a symbol for a placeholder in a decimal positional notation system (and strictly speaking, not of a symbol for zero, as I try to explain below). As I said above, I was prepared for the scepticism of colleagues, since my first reaction too was that these dates are impossible. On the other hand, I have to say that I don?t see why we can accept without blinking the radiocarbon dating of the G?ndh?r? material or of early Sanskrit manuscripts such as the Spitzer manuscript or of other Buddhist manuscripts from Turfan and other Silk Road sites (all listed in the article by Allon, Jacobsen, Zoppi, and Salomon in the third volume of the Buddhist Schoyen manuscripts, 2006), while in the case of the Bakhshali manuscript we ought not to accept them. I don't know, maybe I?m too na?ve to understand the arguments, but what it seems to me is that we are all sceptical because it is difficult to explain these results, since they go against several assumptions we take for granted. I believe that what is puzzling you is the fact that we have three different dates. Imagine if we would have chosen to radiocarbon date only one fragment and not three, or if I would have chosen the three fragments only from the part denoted as M by Kaye in his editio princeps. In the first case, we would have had one single date as result (either the oldest, the middle, or the latest one), and in the second case we might probably have had three similar results with only one later date, which would have convinced us that we are all correct in our assumptions about the development of North Indian scripts, particularly of the ??rad?, as we would have thought "Hey, this is great, a 10th-century (proto-)??rad? manuscript! After the inscriptions in (proto-)??rad?, we finally have the oldest dated manuscript against which we can date other ??rad? inscriptions and manuscripts." Alas, I chose instead three fragments from parts of the manuscript (or manuscripts?) which according to Kaye were written in two (or even three) different hands, precisely because we all wanted to be sure to have a sound approach?and I wanted to verify Kaye's palaeographical analysis and understand whether the two (or three scribes) wrote in different periods or not. This is the reason why we have now these three different results. (Honestly, I didn't expect this huge difference in the dates of the three fragments, above all because I thought that the results would have ranged between the 10th and the 12th century; incidentally, Hayashi did not fully believe in the correctness of Kaye's palaeographical assessment and for this reason his reconstruction of the order of the folios differs from Kaye's.) Maybe we ought to reassess our assumptions a bit, instead of blaming the results?but again, I am probably too na?ve, or ignorant, or not knowledgeable enough and my hypothesis are all wrong (above all my assessment of the position of the script of folio 16 in the development of the Gilgit-Bamiyan scripts, which I will describe in the article I mentioned, but about which I am not totally sure myself, as often is the case in palaeographical studies). (By the way, the Guardian article doesn?t mention the Gwalior inscription, which is actually mentioned in the video, and it is not totally incorrect what Prof. du Sautoy says, because he doesn?t say anything about the Gwalior inscription as being the oldest attestation of a written zero, he simply mentions it as an old attestation of this symbol. Anyway, I have always stressed to all other colleagues involved in the project at various levels that the oldest attestations of a place-holder symbol in the form of a zero are from Southeast Asia and not in the Gwalior inscription, as they sometimes said?as you can imagine, I have closely followed the recent discussion about this topic here on Indology, but I kept my mouth shut because I couldn?t reveal our results due to an embargo from the Bodleian Libraries Communication office. If you read anything in which somebody from the University of Oxford says that the place-holder symbol in the Gwalior inscription is the oldest attestation of the symbol for zero, well evidently they haven?t listened to me.) "But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17?" At this moment, I am in no position to say with certainty whether we are dealing simply with a composite manuscript consisting of three codicological units (a kernel and two or more dependent codicological units) and at the same time containing only one single s?tra + commentary textual unit, or rather with a composite and multi-text manuscript, consisting of three (or even more) independent codicological units (possibly even without a clear kernel!) and at the same time containing two or more different s?tra + commentary textual units. I have to specify that with s?tra + commentary textual unit I mean the group of [(s?tra + ud?hara?a) and (commentary + ny?sa (sth?pana or ny?sasth?pana), kara?a and one or more pratyayas)], which I consider as a single text (although I might be totally wrong). So as you can see, to a certain extent we could already say that this is a multi-text manuscript. I do believe though that we have to keep an open mind, start our research from scratch and possibly rethink the grouping of the folios. For this reason again I am in no position to say anything more about the relationship of folio 16 and 17, as I don't know anything of Indian mathematics (and very very very little of mathematics in general). Our intention has been from the very start of this project simply to verify the date of the Bakhshali manuscript with the only means that we thought would clarify the one-century old debate about the antiquity of this manuscript and its implication for the history of mathematics, since the palaeographical and textual means employed so far provided a wide range of dates. We would have then left the results in the hand of the real experts, like Takao Hayashi and Agathe Keller, with whom we were already in contact before starting the project. Unfortunately?or luckily?we complicated the picture even more, and here I am replying to your questions. Below I have pasted an extract from the part I have prepared for the Bodleian?s official ?Bakhshali Research Statement&Background? document (the full document can be found at this link: http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Bakhshali%20Research%20Statement_13%209%2017_FINAL.pdf). Please bear in mind that this report is written for non-specialists, so some parts of what I wrote might sound very generic and not totally exact or sufficiently supported by scholarly evidence in the eyes of Indologists. In my article I will obviously try and underpin with textual and palaeographical evidence some of the hypothetical statements (and I stress hypothetical!) that I make in these very short report. I hope however that it provisionally answers some of your questions. "Do all these folios contain the 0?" All folios contain the symbol 0 used either as a placeholder or as a symbol for an unknown, but not as a zero in its own rights (as I try to explain below). "Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank"." As to the question of what is a zero, what Prof. du Sautoy means is that one thing is to have any symbol? (in our case, the dot that will evolve into the hollow symbol 0) as a placeholder to denote the absence of units, tens, hundreds, etc. in a positional notation system (be it decimal, as in the Indian system, or sexagesimal, as in the Babylonian system). This fact is per se not so exciting, as it is clearly explained even in the Guardian article: ?Several ancient cultures independently came up with similar placeholder symbols. The Babylonians used a double wedge for nothing as part of cuneiform symbols dating back 5,000 years, while the Mayans used a shell to denote absence in their complex calendar system.? What is more exciting in the Bakhshali manuscript is another function of the dot, i.e. precisely the fact that it represents an unknown (for instance in equations). However, as I understand it (but my knowledge and understanding of mathematics is very poor), this is again different than thinking of having as result of an operation zero, i.e. nothing, from something. I hope my explanation is clear, as it took me sometime to understand why Prof. du Sautoy was desperately looking for what we laymen called a ?mathematical? zero, when we all thought that the Bakhshali was already full of them! Best wishes, Camillo The carbon dating has revealed that the Bakhshali manuscript is a composite document and consists of at least three different parts with different ages. Due to the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, it is difficult to reconstruct the original order of the folios and consequently of the extant texts. Until now, the manuscript has been studied as if it were one single item. The first editor of the manuscript, G. R. Kaye, employed the following criteria to establish the order of the folios: (1) Logical sequence of contents. (2) The ?find order.? (3) Physical appearance such as the size, shape, degree of damage, and knots in the birch bark. (4) The script and language. (5) Numbered s?tras. In the most recent complete study of the manuscript (1995), Takao Hayashi does not deem the fourth criterion reliable enough for the reconstruction of the order of the folios. This approach is again based on the assumption that all extant parts of the manuscript were written at the same time ? an assertion now overturned by the new carbon dating results. The early date of folio 16 fits well into the cultural milieu in which this part of the manuscript was probably produced and circulated. The content of the Bakhshali manuscript is similar to the type of texts that Buddhist merchants would have needed to study (and possibly use as reference) for their daily trading activities. It includes very practical mathematical examples and equations, such as how to compute the loss in weight of a quantity of impure metal in the process of refining it, etc. The manuscript was recovered in the village of Bakhshali in Pakistan, in an area that belongs to the historical Gandh?ra region. It is a region in which major cities such as Peshawar (Skt. Puru?apura) and Taxila (Skt. Tak?a?il?) were important commercial and cultural hubs. This area belonged to the Indian, Persian, and Greek cultural spheres of influence and had contacts with Chinese culture through the Silk Road. The oldest Buddhist and South Asian manuscripts extant were also found in the Greater Gandh?ra region and their dates range from the first century BCE to the fourth century CE ? so a similar time period to that of folio 16 of the Bakhshali manuscript. Although written in a different script and a different language than the Bakhshali manuscript, these Buddhist manuscripts are also written on birch-bark. Moreover, the language used in the manuscript is not standard Sanskrit, and according to Hayashi it shows features of what is called Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, as well as of other Middle-Indo Aryan languages (Prakrit and Apabhra??a), and also of Old Kashmiri. This is yet another feature that can be explained by the fact that the manuscript in its present state is composed of at least three different manuscripts with different dates. The three dates would then correspond to different stages of linguistic development. ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org From: Andrea Acri [mailto:andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr] Sent: 15 September 2017 01:42 To: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Sep 15 23:00:58 2017 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George L. HART) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 18:00:58 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <75f52348-d607-467a-a1f5-4de1470b9e55@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <-1951909623640392635@unknownmsgid> Ingalls once pointed out that ?k? in Paninean grammar (e.g. ?kvip?) stands for nothing, i.e. no change. He suggested that the Indian invention of zero might be related to the fact that they had a way of indicating ?zero change? in grammar. In light of this, the early invention of zero does not appear implausible. George Sent from my iPad On Sep 15, 2017, at 5:14 PM, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Dear Andrea, Many thanks for your enthusiasm about this discovery! I will try and reply to each point you raise, but allow me to quote at the outset a very telling passage written by Cecil Bendall in 1882, in his article *On European Collections of Sanskrit Manuscripts from Nepal: Their Antiquity and Bearing on Chronology, History and Literature*. When I was first told about the results of the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I did not believe it, in fact my very first thought was that they must had done something wrong at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. My second thought then was precisely that the scribe (or scribes) must had used old birch-bark sheets to write parts of the manuscript in later centuries. However, at that moment I was also working on an article on the history of the Cambridge collections of Sanskrit manuscripts and this quote by Cecil Bendall helped me to keep an open mind: "The early dates of some of these MSS. have been, indeed, received in some quarters with certain incredulity; but for myself, I must testify that, after about two years study, both of the great Cambridge collection, of which I have been during this time engaged in preparing a catalogue, and of various Buddhistic MSS. in other libraries, the truthfulness and genuineness of the colophons is placed in almost every case beyond a doubt by evidence both varied and conclusive." (Bendall 1882, 190). I think this is a very telling passage in which our attitude towards this type of discoveries is very aptly described. Apparently, we haven't changed much in the last one-hundred years. In the 19th century, some of our esteemed colleagues didn't even believe that the colophons of old Nepalese palm-leaf manuscripts were authentic. Surely, as we all know, there are cases of colophons of old antigraphs copied together with the main text into more recent apographs, but can we honestly say that they are the great majority of colophons of South Asian manuscripts? Let me now reply to your points. "If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized." On my part, I fail to see why you think more plausible that somebody reused 700-years old birch-bark sheets to write on it, when they could have used contemporary birch-bark sheet, which would have surely been less fragile. I rather think that we are dealing with a composite manuscript consisting of at least three distinct codicological units. Actually, what seems more plausible to me is exactly the reverse, that somebody supplemented the damaged parts of an old manuscript by copying them on new birch bark, as often is the case in old North Indian and Nepalese palm-leaf manuscripts with damaged folios (as for instance happened with this 11th century Nepalese palm-leaf manuscript: https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-01643/1). If you however think that your hypothesis is more plausible, then I have to say that I disagree with you. "(By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?)." It?s not as simple as you might think. It is something we are considering though, as this would be the only way to ascertain what really happened, whether the scribe (or scribes) used old birch-bark sheets to write a new text in the 10th century or if they replaced old and damaged sheets with new birch-bark sheets on which they copied the text of the damaged folios. "The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article)." Well, if you are convinced that the results of the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript are wrong, then you are right and the zero in 8th century Southeast Asian inscriptions would be the oldest attestation of a symbol for a placeholder in a decimal positional notation system (and strictly speaking, not of a symbol for zero, as I try to explain below). As I said above, I was prepared for the scepticism of colleagues, since my first reaction too was that these dates are impossible. On the other hand, I have to say that I don?t see why we can accept without blinking the radiocarbon dating of the G?ndh?r? material or of early Sanskrit manuscripts such as the Spitzer manuscript or of other Buddhist manuscripts from Turfan and other Silk Road sites (all listed in the article by Allon, Jacobsen, Zoppi, and Salomon in the third volume of the Buddhist Schoyen manuscripts, 2006), while in the case of the Bakhshali manuscript we ought not to accept them. I don't know, maybe I?m too na?ve to understand the arguments, but what it seems to me is that we are all sceptical because it is difficult to explain these results, since they go against several assumptions we take for granted. I believe that what is puzzling you is the fact that we have three different dates. Imagine if we would have chosen to radiocarbon date only one fragment and not three, or if I would have chosen the three fragments only from the part denoted as M by Kaye in his editio princeps. In the first case, we would have had one single date as result (either the oldest, the middle, or the latest one), and in the second case we might probably have had three similar results with only one later date, which would have convinced us that we are all correct in our assumptions about the development of North Indian scripts, particularly of the ??rad?, as we would have thought "Hey, this is great, a 10th-century (proto-)??rad? manuscript! After the inscriptions in (proto-)??rad?, we finally have the oldest dated manuscript against which we can date other ??rad? inscriptions and manuscripts." Alas, I chose instead three fragments from parts of the manuscript (or manuscripts?) which according to Kaye were written in two (or even three) different hands, precisely because we all wanted to be sure to have a sound approach?and I wanted to verify Kaye's palaeographical analysis and understand whether the two (or three scribes) wrote in different periods or not. This is the reason why we have now these three different results. (Honestly, I didn't expect this huge difference in the dates of the three fragments, above all because I thought that the results would have ranged between the 10th and the 12th century; incidentally, Hayashi did not fully believe in the correctness of Kaye's palaeographical assessment and for this reason his reconstruction of the order of the folios differs from Kaye's.) Maybe we ought to reassess our assumptions a bit, instead of blaming the results?but again, I am probably too na?ve, or ignorant, or not knowledgeable enough and my hypothesis are all wrong (above all my assessment of the position of the script of folio 16 in the development of the Gilgit-Bamiyan scripts, which I will describe in the article I mentioned, but about which I am not totally sure myself, as often is the case in palaeographical studies). (By the way, the Guardian article doesn?t mention the Gwalior inscription, which is actually mentioned in the video, and it is not totally incorrect what Prof. du Sautoy says, because he doesn?t say anything about the Gwalior inscription as being the oldest attestation of a written zero, he simply mentions it as an old attestation of this symbol. Anyway, I have always stressed to all other colleagues involved in the project at various levels that the oldest attestations of a place-holder symbol in the form of a zero are from Southeast Asia and not in the Gwalior inscription, as they sometimes said?as you can imagine, I have closely followed the recent discussion about this topic here on Indology, but I kept my mouth shut because I couldn?t reveal our results due to an embargo from the Bodleian Libraries Communication office. If you read anything in which somebody from the University of Oxford says that the place-holder symbol in the Gwalior inscription is the oldest attestation of the symbol for zero, well evidently they haven?t listened to me.) "But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17?" At this moment, I am in no position to say with certainty whether we are dealing simply with a composite manuscript consisting of three codicological units (a kernel and two or more dependent codicological units) and at the same time containing only one single s?tra + commentary textual unit, or rather with a composite *and* multi-text manuscript, consisting of three (or even more) independent codicological units (possibly even without a clear kernel!) and at the same time containing two or more different s?tra + commentary textual units. I have to specify that with s?tra + commentary textual unit I mean the group of [(s?tra + ud?hara?a) and (commentary + ny?sa (sth?pana or ny?sasth?pana), kara?a and one or more pratyayas)], which I consider as a single text (although I might be totally wrong). So as you can see, to a certain extent we could already say that this is a multi-text manuscript. I do believe though that we have to keep an open mind, start our research from scratch and possibly rethink the grouping of the folios. For this reason again I am in no position to say anything more about the relationship of folio 16 and 17, as I don't know anything of Indian mathematics (and very very very little of mathematics in general). Our intention has been from the very start of this project simply to verify the date of the Bakhshali manuscript with the only means that we thought would clarify the one-century old debate about the antiquity of this manuscript and its implication for the history of mathematics, since the palaeographical and textual means employed so far provided a wide range of dates. We would have then left the results in the hand of the real experts, like Takao Hayashi and Agathe Keller, with whom we were already in contact before starting the project. Unfortunately?or luckily?we complicated the picture even more, and here I am replying to your questions. Below I have pasted an extract from the part I have prepared for the Bodleian?s official ?Bakhshali Research Statement&Background? document (the full document can be found at this link: http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Bakhshali%20Research%20Statement_13%209%2017_FINAL.pdf). Please bear in mind that this report is written for non-specialists, so some parts of what I wrote might sound very generic and not totally exact or sufficiently supported by scholarly evidence in the eyes of Indologists. In my article I will obviously try and underpin with textual and palaeographical evidence some of the hypothetical statements (and I stress hypothetical!) that I make in these very short report. I hope however that it provisionally answers some of your questions. "Do all these folios contain the 0?" All folios contain the symbol 0 used either as a placeholder or as a symbol for an unknown, but not as a zero in its own rights (as I try to explain below). "Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank"." As to the question of what is a zero, what Prof. du Sautoy means is that one thing is to have any symbol? (in our case, the dot that will evolve into the hollow symbol 0) as a placeholder to denote the absence of units, tens, hundreds, etc. in a positional notation system (be it decimal, as in the Indian system, or sexagesimal, as in the Babylonian system). This fact is per se not so exciting, as it is clearly explained even in the Guardian article: ?Several ancient cultures independently came up with similar placeholder symbols. The Babylonians used a double wedge for nothing as part of cuneiform symbols dating back 5,000 years, while the Mayans used a shell to denote absence in their complex calendar system.? What is more exciting in the Bakhshali manuscript is another function of the dot, i.e. precisely the fact that it represents an unknown (for instance in equations). However, as I understand it (but my knowledge and understanding of mathematics is very poor), this is again different than thinking of having as result of an operation zero, i.e. nothing, from something. I hope my explanation is clear, as it took me sometime to understand why Prof. du Sautoy was desperately looking for what we laymen called a ?mathematical? zero, when we all thought that the Bakhshali was already full of them! Best wishes, Camillo The carbon dating has revealed that the Bakhshali manuscript is a composite document and consists of at least three different parts with different ages. Due to the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, it is difficult to reconstruct the original order of the folios and consequently of the extant texts. Until now, the manuscript has been studied as if it were one single item. The first editor of the manuscript, G. R. Kaye, employed the following criteria to establish the order of the folios: (1) Logical sequence of contents. (2) The ?find order.? (3) Physical appearance such as the size, shape, degree of damage, and knots in the birch bark. (4) The script and language. (5) Numbered s?tras. In the most recent complete study of the manuscript (1995), Takao Hayashi does not deem the fourth criterion reliable enough for the reconstruction of the order of the folios. This approach is again based on the assumption that all extant parts of the manuscript were written at the same time ? an assertion now overturned by the new carbon dating results. The early date of folio 16 fits well into the cultural milieu in which this part of the manuscript was probably produced and circulated. The content of the Bakhshali manuscript is similar to the type of texts that Buddhist merchants would have needed to study (and possibly use as reference) for their daily trading activities. It includes very practical mathematical examples and equations, such as how to compute the loss in weight of a quantity of impure metal in the process of refining it, etc. The manuscript was recovered in the village of Bakhshali in Pakistan, in an area that belongs to the historical Gandh?ra region. It is a region in which major cities such as Peshawar (Skt. Puru?apura) and Taxila (Skt. Tak?a?il?) were important commercial and cultural hubs. This area belonged to the Indian, Persian, and Greek cultural spheres of influence and had contacts with Chinese culture through the Silk Road. The oldest Buddhist and South Asian manuscripts extant were also found in the Greater Gandh?ra region and their dates range from the first century BCE to the fourth century CE ? so a similar time period to that of folio 16 of the Bakhshali manuscript. Although written in a different script and a different language than the Bakhshali manuscript, these Buddhist manuscripts are also written on birch-bark. Moreover, the language used in the manuscript is not standard Sanskrit, and according to Hayashi it shows features of what is called Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, as well as of other Middle-Indo Aryan languages (Prakrit and Apabhra??a), and also of Old Kashmiri. This is yet another feature that can be explained by the fact that the manuscript in its present state is composed of at least three different manuscripts with different dates. The three dates would then correspond to different stages of linguistic development. ------------------------------ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk *GROW YOUR MIND* in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org *From:* Andrea Acri [mailto:andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr ] *Sent:* 15 September 2017 01:42 *To:* Indology List *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ------------------------------ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk *GROW YOUR MIND* in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 15 23:39:59 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 17 23:39:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <23275192-4307-404c-a5cf-9ee9fa842368@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Prof. Slaje, Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my opinions and be more open to possibilities. I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? script when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, then when I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge collections, and more recently when I was completing a survey of the birch-bark manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their conditions (I was surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark manuscripts belonging to what I call the Leitner collection, which are actually mentioned in the introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and Keith, but that had escaped my attention so far; anyway, this is yet another story). I am fully aware that I am a beginner in the field of the paleography of the ??rad? script. Moreover, I know very well that I am certainly not the most qualified scholar who could assess the implications of these results for the palaeography of North Indian scripts, and certainly not at all for the history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I have been asked to assist during the whole project of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript in my role as the curator of the Sanskrit manuscripts in the Bodleian Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do my homework properly, so to say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile with the job of school students. I have taken care of all Indological aspects and implications of this project very closely since its outset. In our team we are all well aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in fact we have been in contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of the project, and the only reason why we haven't communicated the results to them in advance and before the press release is because of decisions coming from higher above us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic metaphor). In fact, I have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very intensively in the last few months, alongside Kaye's first edition, Hoernle's article, and several other articles and books on the topic of zero and the history of mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, without her wonderful contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I would have been lost), as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, your own 1993 book, and several other publications on the palaeography of Indian scripts (obviously starting with the one by our great forefather Georg Buehler). The reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team, by the way, except for Prof. du Sautoy?is that this is an article in a newspaper and hence written for the broader public. As one of my Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today when I wrote to him that I was disappointed that none of us from the team was even mentioned in the Guardian article (above all because two of us are EU citizens, and I believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control what the press chooses to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the exclusive on this news (together with the BBC) and provided with the names of all members of the team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose to interview and quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian Richard Ovenden, who both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If this is what Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a wider impact on the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their decision. I surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all know how these things go, don't we? Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do not fully agree with the statement "The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently [italics mine] by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely a technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running a PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the IDP website. (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's edition, since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due to its poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked permission to use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's edition, it turned out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile in Hayashi's edition is based on photographs of the printed version of Kaye's facsimile.) Best wishes, Camillo Formigatti ________________________________ From: Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM To: Andrea Acri Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give qualified statements. A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript was brought to the public in 1995: Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): [X] Best regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY >: Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr Sat Sep 16 04:11:37 2017 From: andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr (Andrea Acri) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 09:41:37 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <75f52348-d607-467a-a1f5-4de1470b9e55@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Camillo thank you for your detailed and informative reply. At the very outset, let me say that I did not intend to cast doubt on the veracity of the radiocarbon dating; in principle, and being an ignoramus in this area, I have absolutely no problem to accept such an early dating, which by the way is in harmony with other recent findings (and, let me add, with a trend to retro-date texts that we thought to be younger, especially in the tantric corpus). So, I wait for the experts to draw their conclusions. I just wanted to get a clearer picture of the codicological and philological aspects of this manuscript; your answer clarified many obscure points. Let me stress that I was not advancing any hypothesis; I didn't even know if the text was unitary, so I merely stated a possibility, and immediately pointed to the fact that, as you implied, this seems rather to be a composite manuscript, which I have no reason to doubt. I'm not familiar with the 'replacement' of worn-out manuscript folios, as such practice is as yet unattested in the manuscript traditions that I study, but I must say that I find it fully convincing. This at least would explain the different dates, so I'm happy to accept it without hesitation. If, on the other hand, the manuscripts contain different texts, then we don't even need to accept this hypothesis, as we might be dealing with texts from different periods, perhaps barely related to each other. No problem there either. (As to the reuse of old writing material, I might have been influenced by another--quite sensational!--news that came to my attention recently, although from an altogether different manuscript tradition: https://www.google.com.sg/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/lost-languages-found-ancient-manuscript-parchment-saint-catherine-monastery-sinai-peninsula-egypt-a7916346.html%3famp). As to the mention of the Gwalior zero, you are right, it's not in the article; I got, again, confused since it is mentioned in several other articles that by now have (inevitably) appeared all over the world (try a google search!), as well as the Bakshali ms Wikipedia page (which must obviously be the source used in such articles). No mention of the SEAsian evidence there either. At any rate, your statement > At this moment, I am in no position to say with certainty whether we are dealing simply with a composite manuscript consisting of three codicological units (a kernel and two or more dependent codicological units) and at the same time containing only one single s?tra + commentary textual unit, or rather with a composite and multi-text manuscript, consisting of three (or even more) independent codicological units (possibly even without a clear kernel!) and at the same time containing two or more different s?tra + commentary textual units. > [...] For this reason again I am in no position to say anything more about the relationship of folio 16 and 17, as I don't know anything of Indian mathematics (and very very very little of mathematics in general). ... leaves things quite open indeed. It is rather unsettling that the medias are already jumping to conclusions, but as you say, we all know how these things go. I also take the opportunity to thank the scholars who replied, on- and off-list, to my mathematics-related question. I'm getting closer to grasping the concept :) Best regards Andrea Sent from my iPhone > On 16 Sep 2017, at 03:44, Camillo Formigatti wrote: > > Dear Andrea, > > Many thanks for your enthusiasm about this discovery! > > I will try and reply to each point you raise, but allow me to quote at the outset a very telling passage written by Cecil Bendall in 1882, in his article On European Collections of Sanskrit Manuscripts from Nepal: Their Antiquity and Bearing on Chronology, History and Literature. When I was first told about the results of the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I did not believe it, in fact my very first thought was that they must had done something wrong at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. My second thought then was precisely that the scribe (or scribes) must had used old birch-bark sheets to write parts of the manuscript in later centuries. However, at that moment I was also working on an article on the history of the Cambridge collections of Sanskrit manuscripts and this quote by Cecil Bendall helped me to keep an open mind: > "The early dates of some of these MSS. have been, indeed, received in some quarters with certain incredulity; but for myself, I must testify that, after about two years study, both of the great Cambridge collection, of which I have been during this time engaged in preparing a catalogue, and of various Buddhistic MSS. in other libraries, the truthfulness and genuineness of the colophons is placed in almost every case beyond a doubt by evidence both varied and conclusive." (Bendall 1882, 190). > I think this is a very telling passage in which our attitude towards this type of discoveries is very aptly described. Apparently, we haven't changed much in the last one-hundred years. In the 19th century, some of our esteemed colleagues didn't even believe that the colophons of old Nepalese palm-leaf manuscripts were authentic. Surely, as we all know, there are cases of colophons of old antigraphs copied together with the main text into more recent apographs, but can we honestly say that they are the great majority of colophons of South Asian manuscripts? > > Let me now reply to your points. > "If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized." > On my part, I fail to see why you think more plausible that somebody reused 700-years old birch-bark sheets to write on it, when they could have used contemporary birch-bark sheet, which would have surely been less fragile. I rather think that we are dealing with a composite manuscript consisting of at least three distinct codicological units. Actually, what seems more plausible to me is exactly the reverse, that somebody supplemented the damaged parts of an old manuscript by copying them on new birch bark, as often is the case in old North Indian and Nepalese palm-leaf manuscripts with damaged folios (as for instance happened with this 11th century Nepalese palm-leaf manuscript: https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-01643/1). If you however think that your hypothesis is more plausible, then I have to say that I disagree with you. > "(By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?)." > It?s not as simple as you might think. It is something we are considering though, as this would be the only way to ascertain what really happened, whether the scribe (or scribes) used old birch-bark sheets to write a new text in the 10th century or if they replaced old and damaged sheets with new birch-bark sheets on which they copied the text of the damaged folios. > "The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article)." > Well, if you are convinced that the results of the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript are wrong, then you are right and the zero in 8th century Southeast Asian inscriptions would be the oldest attestation of a symbol for a placeholder in a decimal positional notation system (and strictly speaking, not of a symbol for zero, as I try to explain below). As I said above, I was prepared for the scepticism of colleagues, since my first reaction too was that these dates are impossible. On the other hand, I have to say that I don?t see why we can accept without blinking the radiocarbon dating of the G?ndh?r? material or of early Sanskrit manuscripts such as the Spitzer manuscript or of other Buddhist manuscripts from Turfan and other Silk Road sites (all listed in the article by Allon, Jacobsen, Zoppi, and Salomon in the third volume of the Buddhist Schoyen manuscripts, 2006), while in the case of the Bakhshali manuscript we ought not to accept them. I don't know, maybe I?m too na?ve to understand the arguments, but what it seems to me is that we are all sceptical because it is difficult to explain these results, since they go against several assumptions we take for granted. I believe that what is puzzling you is the fact that we have three different dates. Imagine if we would have chosen to radiocarbon date only one fragment and not three, or if I would have chosen the three fragments only from the part denoted as M by Kaye in his editio princeps. In the first case, we would have had one single date as result (either the oldest, the middle, or the latest one), and in the second case we might probably have had three similar results with only one later date, which would have convinced us that we are all correct in our assumptions about the development of North Indian scripts, particularly of the ??rad?, as we would have thought "Hey, this is great, a 10th-century (proto-)??rad? manuscript! After the inscriptions in (proto-)??rad?, we finally have the oldest dated manuscript against which we can date other ??rad? inscriptions and manuscripts." Alas, I chose instead three fragments from parts of the manuscript (or manuscripts?) which according to Kaye were written in two (or even three) different hands, precisely because we all wanted to be sure to have a sound approach?and I wanted to verify Kaye's palaeographical analysis and understand whether the two (or three scribes) wrote in different periods or not. This is the reason why we have now these three different results. (Honestly, I didn't expect this huge difference in the dates of the three fragments, above all because I thought that the results would have ranged between the 10th and the 12th century; incidentally, Hayashi did not fully believe in the correctness of Kaye's palaeographical assessment and for this reason his reconstruction of the order of the folios differs from Kaye's.) Maybe we ought to reassess our assumptions a bit, instead of blaming the results?but again, I am probably too na?ve, or ignorant, or not knowledgeable enough and my hypothesis are all wrong (above all my assessment of the position of the script of folio 16 in the development of the Gilgit-Bamiyan scripts, which I will describe in the article I mentioned, but about which I am not totally sure myself, as often is the case in palaeographical studies). > > (By the way, the Guardian article doesn?t mention the Gwalior inscription, which is actually mentioned in the video, and it is not totally incorrect what Prof. du Sautoy says, because he doesn?t say anything about the Gwalior inscription as being the oldest attestation of a written zero, he simply mentions it as an old attestation of this symbol. Anyway, I have always stressed to all other colleagues involved in the project at various levels that the oldest attestations of a place-holder symbol in the form of a zero are from Southeast Asia and not in the Gwalior inscription, as they sometimes said?as you can imagine, I have closely followed the recent discussion about this topic here on Indology, but I kept my mouth shut because I couldn?t reveal our results due to an embargo from the Bodleian Libraries Communication office. If you read anything in which somebody from the University of Oxford says that the place-holder symbol in the Gwalior inscription is the oldest attestation of the symbol for zero, well evidently they haven?t listened to me.) > "But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17?" > At this moment, I am in no position to say with certainty whether we are dealing simply with a composite manuscript consisting of three codicological units (a kernel and two or more dependent codicological units) and at the same time containing only one single s?tra + commentary textual unit, or rather with a composite and multi-text manuscript, consisting of three (or even more) independent codicological units (possibly even without a clear kernel!) and at the same time containing two or more different s?tra + commentary textual units. I have to specify that with s?tra + commentary textual unit I mean the group of [(s?tra + ud?hara?a) and (commentary + ny?sa (sth?pana or ny?sasth?pana), kara?a and one or more pratyayas)], which I consider as a single text (although I might be totally wrong). So as you can see, to a certain extent we could already say that this is a multi-text manuscript. I do believe though that we have to keep an open mind, start our research from scratch and possibly rethink the grouping of the folios. For this reason again I am in no position to say anything more about the relationship of folio 16 and 17, as I don't know anything of Indian mathematics (and very very very little of mathematics in general). Our intention has been from the very start of this project simply to verify the date of the Bakhshali manuscript with the only means that we thought would clarify the one-century old debate about the antiquity of this manuscript and its implication for the history of mathematics, since the palaeographical and textual means employed so far provided a wide range of dates. We would have then left the results in the hand of the real experts, like Takao Hayashi and Agathe Keller, with whom we were already in contact before starting the project. Unfortunately?or luckily?we complicated the picture even more, and here I am replying to your questions. > > Below I have pasted an extract from the part I have prepared for the Bodleian?s official ?Bakhshali Research Statement&Background? document (the full document can be found at this link: http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Bakhshali%20Research%20Statement_13%209%2017_FINAL.pdf). Please bear in mind that this report is written for non-specialists, so some parts of what I wrote might sound very generic and not totally exact or sufficiently supported by scholarly evidence in the eyes of Indologists. In my article I will obviously try and underpin with textual and palaeographical evidence some of the hypothetical statements (and I stress hypothetical!) that I make in these very short report. I hope however that it provisionally answers some of your questions. > "Do all these folios contain the 0?" > All folios contain the symbol 0 used either as a placeholder or as a symbol for an unknown, but not as a zero in its own rights (as I try to explain below). > "Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank"." > As to the question of what is a zero, what Prof. du Sautoy means is that one thing is to have any symbol? (in our case, the dot that will evolve into the hollow symbol 0) as a placeholder to denote the absence of units, tens, hundreds, etc. in a positional notation system (be it decimal, as in the Indian system, or sexagesimal, as in the Babylonian system). This fact is per se not so exciting, as it is clearly explained even in the Guardian article: ?Several ancient cultures independently came up with similar placeholder symbols. The Babylonians used a double wedge for nothing as part of cuneiform symbols dating back 5,000 years, while the Mayans used a shell to denote absence in their complex calendar system.? What is more exciting in the Bakhshali manuscript is another function of the dot, i.e. precisely the fact that it represents an unknown (for instance in equations). However, as I understand it (but my knowledge and understanding of mathematics is very poor), this is again different than thinking of having as result of an operation zero, i.e. nothing, from something. I hope my explanation is clear, as it took me sometime to understand why Prof. du Sautoy was desperately looking for what we laymen called a ?mathematical? zero, when we all thought that the Bakhshali was already full of them! > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > The carbon dating has revealed that the Bakhshali manuscript is a composite document and consists of at least three different parts with different ages. Due to the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, it is difficult to reconstruct the original order of the folios and consequently of the extant texts. Until now, the manuscript has been studied as if it were one single item. The first editor of the manuscript, G. R. Kaye, employed the following criteria to establish the order of the folios: > (1) Logical sequence of contents. > (2) The ?find order.? > (3) Physical appearance such as the size, shape, degree of damage, and knots in the birch bark. > (4) The script and language. > (5) Numbered s?tras. > In the most recent complete study of the manuscript (1995), Takao Hayashi does not deem the fourth criterion reliable enough for the reconstruction of the order of the folios. This approach is again based on the assumption that all extant parts of the manuscript were written at the same time ? an assertion now overturned by the new carbon dating results. > > The early date of folio 16 fits well into the cultural milieu in which this part of the manuscript was probably produced and circulated. The content of the Bakhshali manuscript is similar to the type of texts that Buddhist merchants would have needed to study (and possibly use as reference) for their daily trading activities. It includes very practical mathematical examples and equations, such as how to compute the loss in weight of a quantity of impure metal in the process of refining it, etc. > > The manuscript was recovered in the village of Bakhshali in Pakistan, in an area that belongs to the historical Gandh?ra region. It is a region in which major cities such as Peshawar (Skt. Puru?apura) and Taxila (Skt. Tak?a?il?) were important commercial and cultural hubs. This area belonged to the Indian, Persian, and Greek cultural spheres of influence and had contacts with Chinese culture through the Silk Road. The oldest Buddhist and South Asian manuscripts extant were also found in the Greater Gandh?ra region and their dates range from the first century BCE to the fourth century CE ? so a similar time period to that of folio 16 of the Bakhshali manuscript. Although written in a different script and a different language than the Bakhshali manuscript, these Buddhist manuscripts are also written on birch-bark. > > Moreover, the language used in the manuscript is not standard Sanskrit, and according to Hayashi it shows features of what is called Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, as well as of other Middle-Indo Aryan languages (Prakrit and Apabhra??a), and also of Old Kashmiri. This is yet another feature that can be explained by the fact that the manuscript in its present state is composed of at least three different manuscripts with different dates. The three dates would then correspond to different stages of linguistic development. > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > From: Andrea Acri [mailto:andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr] > Sent: 15 September 2017 01:42 > To: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) > > Dear Camillo > > thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. > > If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). > > But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? > > Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): > > "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". > > Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. > > Best regards > Andrea Acri > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol > > I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. > > The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: > > Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD > Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD > 790 (20.6%) 868calAD > Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD > > We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > Bodleian Libraries > The Weston Library > Broad Street, Oxford > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > GROW YOUR MIND > in Oxford University?s > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > www.mindgrowing.org > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 08:29:24 2017 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 09:29:24 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Camillo and other contributors to this fascinating discussion, The use of dates that rolled out of the laborious determination of the C14-C12 ratio in the samples of different parts of the Bakhshali manuscript is certainly technologically impressive. The precision suggested in the presentation in the popular Guardian article is, however, quite doubtful. Critical analyses of the reliability of carbon dating has been expressed not only by Christian scientists who are unwilling to put aside the authority of the bible regarding the origin of the universe, and not only regarding dates preceding 80000 BC but also for periods which are less remote. To count with an error range of plus or minus one or two centuries would seem more appropriate. To insist on more precision than "plus or minus one or two centuries" is then rather a case of prau.dha-vaada with insufficient basis. As you correctly point out, the very different types of evidence are to be used concurrently.G.R. Kaye planned to discuss in part III seem mostly to be within the "sanskrit - approximative sanskrit" dimension at a time that Panini's grammar had not yet reached the status of absolute normativity in the north-west of the Indian subcontinent -- precisely the native area of Panini, but not necessarily the area where his grammar started to radiate its influence most powerfully. See in this context my EPHE conference report for 2012-2013 ( https://ashp.revues.org/1748, paragraph 12 online or p. 259 in printed edition) which I take the liberty to quote here in English: "One verse, more than a millennium later [than Paa.nini], of the Kaavya Miimaa;msaa of Raaja;sekhara, enumerates Paa.nini and his teacher Var.sa among those who presented their work at the royal court of Paa.taliputra, around 1500 km south-east of ;Salaatura and Tak.sa;silaa (KM 10.23: /atropavar.sa-var.sau iha paa.nini-pi;ngalau.../). According to Hariprasad Shastri (1931: XIV), the authors mentioned in the verse would have been in Paa.taliputra on the occasion of contests that took place every five years over a period of several generations [which explains why the verse could have been wrongly read as implying synchronicity of different generations of ;saastrakaaras]. Did Paa.nini and his master make the long trip just to participate in the /;saastrakaarapariik.saa/ "the examination of authors of didactic works" in Paa.taliputra? Or, given that the region of Gandhaara had become politically rather unstable in the period indicated through numismatic sources (Alexander the Great) [just after Paa.nini's grammar had been composed, but had not yet been presented in Paa.taliputra], had they left their native area?" Among the variables of Carbon dates, scriptual variation and linguistic variation, the first is the most objective but allowing a deviation range of plus or minus one or two centuries makes it at the end possible that the different samples were in fact much closer in time. In view of the strong normativity of linguistic usage within the dimension "sanskrit - approximative sanskrit" it is difficult to derive a linear chronological difference from the observed linguistic variation. Also writing is a normative activity and moreover dependent on some amount of individual variation from scribe to scribe. However, writing seems to have been much less subject either to the intensive study of early scripts by later generation scribes or to the conscious reintroduction of archaisms in later forms of writing (something we see in language, most famously the studied archaizing "Vedic" language use in parts of the Mahaabhaarata and in the Bhaagavatapuraa.na). I therefore tend to take quite serious the judgement of palaeographists such as Richard Salomon who observed that, what he teleologically called "Proto-;Saaradaa" "first emerged around the middle of the seventh century" (Indian Epigraphy p. 40). I would submit that the "hardest" evidence to judge the date of the Bakhshali ms and its sections is the palaeographic evidence. No part of that manuscript can then both show a rather developed form of early ;Saaradaa (at the end the scriptual variation between different parts is quite modest) AND belong to the third or fourth century. You further point to an important dimension often neglected in the study of ancient Indian texts: the sociological/sociolinguistic dimension: which was the public interested in studying this text, and in which milieu did it originate and was it transmitted). Apparently, as you suggest, the public included the merchants on the Silk route. The presence of a thematically strongly united but yet composite text could further point to its function within the sociological context of a certain "school" of mathematics which transmits part of its knowledge of a curriculum orally and part in a treasured manuscript that is occasionally repaired or updated (over a period of decades rather than several centuries, I would submit...). Let's see where further critical study and discussion will take us... Jan Houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite Professor of South Asian History and Philology *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 16 September 2017 at 05:11, Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Camillo > > thank you for your detailed and informative reply. At the very outset, let > me say that I did not intend to cast doubt on the veracity of the > radiocarbon dating; in principle, and being an ignoramus in this area, I > have absolutely no problem to accept such an early dating, which by the way > is in harmony with other recent findings (and, let me add, with a trend to > retro-date *texts* that we thought to be younger, especially in the > tantric corpus). So, I wait for the experts to draw their conclusions. > > I just wanted to get a clearer picture of the codicological and > philological aspects of this manuscript; your answer clarified many obscure > points. Let me stress that I was not advancing any hypothesis; I didn't > even know if the text was unitary, so I merely stated a possibility, and > immediately pointed to the fact that, as you implied, this seems rather to > be a composite manuscript, which I have no reason to doubt. I'm not > familiar with the 'replacement' of worn-out manuscript folios, as such > practice is as yet unattested in the manuscript traditions that I study, > but I must say that I find it fully convincing. This at least would explain > the different dates, so I'm happy to accept it without hesitation. If, on > the other hand, the manuscripts contain different texts, then we don't even > need to accept this hypothesis, as we might be dealing with texts from > different periods, perhaps barely related to each other. No problem there > either. > > (As to the reuse of old writing material, I might have been influenced by > another--quite sensational!--news that came to my attention recently, > although from an altogether different manuscript tradition: > https://www.google.com.sg/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/ > world/middle-east/lost-languages-found-ancient-manuscript-parchment-saint- > catherine-monastery-sinai-peninsula-egypt-a7916346.html%3famp). > > As to the mention of the Gwalior zero, you are right, it's not in the > article; I got, again, confused since it is mentioned in several other > articles that by now have (inevitably) appeared all over the world (try a > google search!), as well as the Bakshali ms Wikipedia page (which must > obviously be the source used in such articles). No mention of the SEAsian > evidence there either. > > At any rate, your statement > > At this moment, I am in no position to say with certainty whether we are > dealing simply with a composite manuscript consisting of three > codicological units (a kernel and two or more dependent codicological > units) and at the same time containing only one single s?tra + commentary > textual unit, or rather with a composite *and* multi-text manuscript, > consisting of three (or even more) independent codicological units > (possibly even without a clear kernel!) and at the same time containing two > or more different s?tra + commentary textual units. > > [...] For this reason again I am in no position to say anything more about > the relationship of folio 16 and 17, as I don't know anything of Indian > mathematics (and very very very little of mathematics in general). > > > ... leaves things quite open indeed. It is rather unsettling that the > medias are already jumping to conclusions, but as you say, we all know how > these things go. > > > I also take the opportunity to thank the scholars who replied, on- and > off-list, to my mathematics-related question. I'm getting closer to > grasping the concept :) > > > Best regards > > Andrea > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 16 Sep 2017, at 03:44, Camillo Formigatti ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Dear Andrea, > > > > Many thanks for your enthusiasm about this discovery! > > > I will try and reply to each point you raise, but allow me to quote at the > outset a very telling passage written by Cecil Bendall in 1882, in his > article *On European Collections of Sanskrit Manuscripts from Nepal: > Their Antiquity and Bearing on Chronology, History and Literature*. When > I was first told about the results of the radiocarbon dating of the > Bakhshali manuscript, I did not believe it, in fact my very first thought > was that they must had done something wrong at the Oxford Radiocarbon > Accelerator Unit. My second thought then was precisely that the scribe (or > scribes) must had used old birch-bark sheets to write parts of the > manuscript in later centuries. However, at that moment I was also working > on an article on the history of the Cambridge collections of Sanskrit > manuscripts and this quote by Cecil Bendall helped me to keep an open mind: > > "The early dates of some of these MSS. have been, indeed, received in some > quarters with certain incredulity; but for myself, I must testify that, > after about two years study, both of the great Cambridge collection, of > which I have been during this time engaged in preparing a catalogue, and of > various Buddhistic MSS. in other libraries, the truthfulness and > genuineness of the colophons is placed in almost every case beyond a doubt > by evidence both varied and conclusive." (Bendall 1882, 190). > > I think this is a very telling passage in which our attitude towards this > type of discoveries is very aptly described. Apparently, we haven't changed > much in the last one-hundred years. In the 19th century, some of our > esteemed colleagues didn't even believe that the colophons of old Nepalese > palm-leaf manuscripts were authentic. Surely, as we all know, there are > cases of colophons of old antigraphs copied together with the main text into > more recent apographs, but can we honestly say that they are the great > majority of colophons of South Asian manuscripts? > > > Let me now reply to your points. > > "If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a > single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) > must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about > this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were > centuries older might have been (re)utilized." > > On my part, I fail to see why you think more plausible that somebody > reused 700-years old birch-bark sheets to write on it, when they could have > used contemporary birch-bark sheet, which would have surely been less > fragile. I rather think that we are dealing with a composite manuscript > consisting of at least three distinct codicological units. Actually, what > seems more plausible to me is exactly the reverse, that somebody > supplemented the damaged parts of an old manuscript by copying them on new > birch bark, as often is the case in old North Indian and Nepalese palm-leaf > manuscripts with damaged folios (as for instance happened with this 11th > century Nepalese palm-leaf manuscript: https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/ > view/MS-ADD-01643/1). If you however think that your hypothesis is more > plausible, then I have to say that I disagree with you. > > "(By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?)." > > It?s not as simple as you might think. It is something we are considering > though, as this would be the only way to ascertain what really happened, > whether the scribe (or scribes) used old birch-bark sheets to write a new > text in the 10th century or if they replaced old and damaged sheets with > new birch-bark sheets on which they copied the text of the damaged folios. > > "The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the > 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as > incorrectly reported in the article)." > > Well, if you are convinced that the results of the radiocarbon dating of > the Bakhshali manuscript are wrong, then you are right and the zero in > 8th century Southeast Asian inscriptions would be the oldest attestation of > a symbol for a placeholder in a decimal positional notation system (and > strictly speaking, not of a symbol for zero, as I try to explain below). > As I said above, I was prepared for the scepticism of colleagues, since my > first reaction too was that these dates are impossible. On the other hand, > I have to say that I don?t see why we can accept without blinking the > radiocarbon dating of the G?ndh?r? material or of early Sanskrit > manuscripts such as the Spitzer manuscript or of other Buddhist manuscripts > from Turfan and other Silk Road sites (all listed in the article by Allon, > Jacobsen, Zoppi, and Salomon in the third volume of the Buddhist Schoyen > manuscripts, 2006), while in the case of the Bakhshali manuscript we > ought not to accept them. I don't know, maybe I?m too na?ve to understand > the arguments, but what it seems to me is that we are all sceptical because > it is difficult to explain these results, since they go against several > assumptions we take for granted. I believe that what is puzzling you is > the fact that we have three different dates. Imagine if we would have > chosen to radiocarbon date only one fragment and not three, or if I would > have chosen the three fragments only from the part denoted as M by Kaye in > his editio princeps. In the first case, we would have had one single date > as result (either the oldest, the middle, or the latest one), and in the > second case we might probably have had three similar results with only > one later date, which would have convinced us that we are all correct in > our assumptions about the development of North Indian scripts, particularly > of the ??rad?, as we would have thought "Hey, this is great, a 10th-century > (proto-)??rad? manuscript! After the inscriptions in (proto-)??rad?, we > finally have the oldest dated manuscript against which we can date other > ??rad? inscriptions and manuscripts." Alas, I chose instead three fragments > from parts of the manuscript (or manuscripts?) which according to Kaye were > written in two (or even three) different hands, precisely because we all > wanted to be sure to have a sound approach?and I wanted to verify Kaye's > palaeographical analysis and understand whether the two (or three scribes) > wrote in different periods or not. This is the reason why we have now these > three different results. (Honestly, I didn't expect this huge difference > in the dates of the three fragments, above all because I thought that the > results would have ranged between the 10th and the 12th century; incidentally, > Hayashi did not fully believe in the correctness of Kaye's palaeographical > assessment and for this reason his reconstruction of the order of the > folios differs from Kaye's.) Maybe we ought to reassess our assumptions a > bit, instead of blaming the results?but again, I am probably too na?ve, > or ignorant, or not knowledgeable enough and my hypothesis are all wrong > (above all my assessment of the position of the script of folio 16 in the > development of the Gilgit-Bamiyan scripts, which I will describe in the > article I mentioned, but about which I am not totally sure myself, as often > is the case in palaeographical studies). > > > > (By the way, the Guardian article doesn?t mention the Gwalior inscription, > which is actually mentioned in the video, and it is not totally incorrect > what Prof. du Sautoy says, because he doesn?t say anything about the > Gwalior inscription as being the oldest attestation of a written zero, he > simply mentions it as an old attestation of this symbol. Anyway, I have > always stressed to all other colleagues involved in the project at various > levels that the oldest attestations of a place-holder symbol in the form of > a zero are from Southeast Asia and not in the Gwalior inscription, as they > sometimes said?as you can imagine, I have closely followed the recent > discussion about this topic here on Indology, but I kept my mouth shut > because I couldn?t reveal our results due to an embargo from the Bodleian > Libraries Communication office. If you read anything in which somebody > from the University of Oxford says that the place-holder symbol in the Gwalior > inscription is the oldest attestation of the symbol for zero, well > evidently they haven?t listened to me.) > > "But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables > of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a > composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to > the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your > key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the > relationship between folios 16 and 17?" > > At this moment, I am in no position to say with certainty whether we are > dealing simply with a composite manuscript consisting of three > codicological units (a kernel and two or more dependent codicological > units) and at the same time containing only one single s?tra + commentary > textual unit, or rather with a composite *and* multi-text manuscript, > consisting of three (or even more) independent codicological units > (possibly even without a clear kernel!) and at the same time containing two > or more different s?tra + commentary textual units. I have to specify that > with s?tra + commentary textual unit I mean the group of [(s?tra + > ud?hara?a) and (commentary + ny?sa (sth?pana or ny?sasth?pana), kara?a and > one or more pratyayas)], which I consider as a single text (although I > might be totally wrong). So as you can see, to a certain extent we could > already say that this is a multi-text manuscript. I do believe though that > we have to keep an open mind, start our research from scratch and possibly > rethink the grouping of the folios. For this reason again I am in no > position to say anything more about the relationship of folio 16 and 17, as > I don't know anything of Indian mathematics (and very very very little of > mathematics in general). Our intention has been from the very start of this > project simply to verify the date of the Bakhshali manuscript with the only > means that we thought would clarify the one-century old debate about the > antiquity of this manuscript and its implication for the history of > mathematics, since the palaeographical and textual means employed so far > provided a wide range of dates. We would have then left the results in the > hand of the real experts, like Takao Hayashi and Agathe Keller, with whom > we were already in contact before starting the project. Unfortunately?or > luckily?we complicated the picture even more, and here I am replying to > your questions. > > > Below I have pasted an extract from the part I have prepared for the > Bodleian?s official ?Bakhshali Research Statement&Background? document > (the full document can be found at this link: http://www.sciencemag.org/ > sites/default/files/Bakhshali%20Research%20Statement_13%209%2017_FINAL.pdf). > Please bear in mind that this report is written for non-specialists, so > some parts of what I wrote might sound very generic and not totally exact > or sufficiently supported by scholarly evidence in the eyes of Indologists. > In my article I will obviously try and underpin with textual and > palaeographical evidence some of the hypothetical statements (and I stress > hypothetical!) that I make in these very short report. I hope however that > it provisionally answers some of your questions. > > "Do all these folios contain the 0?" > > All folios contain the symbol 0 used either as a placeholder or as a > symbol for an unknown, but not as a zero in its own rights (as I try to > explain below). > > "Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the > full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In > the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own > right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? > indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but > here the answer is left blank"." > > As to the question of what is a zero, what Prof. du Sautoy means is that > one thing is to have any symbol? (in our case, the dot that will evolve > into the hollow symbol 0) as a placeholder to denote the absence of units, > tens, hundreds, etc. in a positional notation system (be it decimal, as in > the Indian system, or sexagesimal, as in the Babylonian system). This fact > is per se not so exciting, as it is clearly explained even in the Guardian > article: ?Several ancient cultures independently came up with similar > placeholder symbols. The Babylonians used a double wedge for nothing as > part of cuneiform symbols dating back 5,000 years, while the Mayans used a > shell to denote absence in their complex calendar system.? What is more > exciting in the Bakhshali manuscript is another function of the dot, i.e. > precisely the fact that it represents an unknown (for instance in > equations). However, as I understand it (but my knowledge and understanding > of mathematics is very poor), this is again different than thinking of > having as result of an operation zero, i.e. nothing, from something. I hope > my explanation is clear, as it took me sometime to understand why Prof. > du Sautoy was desperately looking for what we laymen called a > ?mathematical? zero, when we all thought that the Bakhshali was already > full of them! > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > > The carbon dating has revealed that the Bakhshali manuscript is a > composite document and consists of at least three different parts with > different ages. Due to the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, it is > difficult to reconstruct the original order of the folios and consequently > of the extant texts. Until now, the manuscript has been studied as if it > were one single item. The first editor of the manuscript, G. R. Kaye, > employed the following criteria to establish the order of the folios: > > (1) Logical sequence of contents. > > (2) The ?find order.? > > (3) Physical appearance such as the size, shape, degree of > damage, and knots in the birch bark. > > (4) The script and language. > > (5) Numbered s?tras. > > In the most recent complete study of the manuscript (1995), Takao Hayashi > does not deem the fourth criterion reliable enough for the reconstruction > of the order of the folios. This approach is again based on the assumption > that all extant parts of the manuscript were written at the same time ? an > assertion now overturned by the new carbon dating results. > > > > The early date of folio 16 fits well into the cultural milieu in which > this part of the manuscript was probably produced and circulated. The > content of the Bakhshali manuscript is similar to the type of texts that > Buddhist merchants would have needed to study (and possibly use as > reference) for their daily trading activities. It includes very practical > mathematical examples and equations, such as how to compute the loss in > weight of a quantity of impure metal in the process of refining it, etc. > > > > The manuscript was recovered in the village of Bakhshali in Pakistan, in > an area that belongs to the historical Gandh?ra region. It is a region in > which major cities such as Peshawar (Skt. Puru?apura) and Taxila (Skt. > Tak?a?il?) were important commercial and cultural hubs. This area > belonged to the Indian, Persian, and Greek cultural spheres of influence > and had contacts with Chinese culture through the Silk Road. The oldest > Buddhist and South Asian manuscripts extant were also found in the Greater > Gandh?ra region and their dates range from the first century BCE to the > fourth century CE ? so a similar time period to that of folio 16 of the > Bakhshali manuscript. Although written in a different script and a > different language than the Bakhshali manuscript, these Buddhist > manuscripts are also written on birch-bark. > > > > Moreover, the language used in the manuscript is not standard Sanskrit, > and according to Hayashi it shows features of what is called Buddhist > Hybrid Sanskrit, as well as of other Middle-Indo Aryan languages (Prakrit > and Apabhra??a), and also of Old Kashmiri. This is yet another feature > that can be explained by the fact that the manuscript in its present state > is composed of at least three different manuscripts with different dates. > The three dates would then correspond to different stages of linguistic > development. > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > *From:* Andrea Acri [mailto:andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr > ] > *Sent:* 15 September 2017 01:42 > *To:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of > the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) > > > > Dear Camillo > > > > thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work > on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that > all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and > Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please > forgive me for being so naive. > > > > If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a > single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) > must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about > this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were > centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis > of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written > zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not > the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). > > > > But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of > ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a > composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to > the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your > key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the > relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? > > > > Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the > full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): > > > > "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own > right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? > indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but > here the answer is left blank". > > > > Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this > point. > > > > Best regards > > Andrea Acri > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado- > about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol > > > > I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after > reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to > me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several > implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our > field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t > answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to > briefly anticipate some of them. > > > > The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali > manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of > colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the > Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell > (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of > the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), > Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and > Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the > School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du > Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science > and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take > samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of > certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis > was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The > results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as > follows: > > > > Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD > > Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD > > 790 (20.6%) 868calAD > > Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD > > > > We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three > folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the > background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all > ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the > different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other > dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a > first palaeographical appraisal of the results. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Camillo > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > John Clay Sanskrit Librarian > > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Sep 16 08:46:18 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 08:46:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C64296@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear Camillo, I have little to add to the most interesting thread you have begun, but I do wish to call your attention to a recent article that may be of interest in that it presents an analogous problem of a manuscript whose different parts yield highly divergent C-14 dates: Amy Heller, "Three Ancient Manuscripts from Tholing in the Tucci Collection, IsIAO, Roma. Part I: Manuscript 1329 E," in STUDIES IN HONOUR OF LUCIANO PETECH, Roma 2016. In this case, it is a question of a Tibetan ms., some of whose parts yield an 11th c. dating and others 16th c. all best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Sat Sep 16 09:03:12 2017 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 11:03:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <23275192-4307-404c-a5cf-9ee9fa842368@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Dr Formigatti, ?? thank you for your detailed and indeed very welcome elucidation! I think, however, there is a need to dispel a possible misunderstanding: The only umbrage I was taking at was the scientist?s zero discovery claim and the lack of any Indological expertise in this sensationalist broadcast, which would ?perhaps have ? be ?en? justified for the radiocarbon dating. It is reassuring to learn about the actual background of the whole undertaking, for which the research team deserves unreserved congratulations, and I would ?be ? the last person not to applaud ? to their efforts? ?. ? What you say about ?the reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team (...) is that this is an article (...) written for the broader public?, invites one to think why a broader public and Indological knowledge should be seen as mutually exclusive? The technical problems with INDOSKRIPT you have pointed out, the advantage of which are its sets of paleographically comparable data, could only be satisfactorily answered by Oliver Hellwig, the programming mastermind behind INDOSKRIPT. A final remark on layers of birch-bark manuscripts: I have documented MSS, where damaged leaves of a text had been supplemented materially by single leaf layers of the same text taken from intact leaves of other MSS (see, e.g., my catalogue of the Viennese MSS collection, 1990, no. 42 (p. 91), no. 53 (p. 103), no. 60 (p. 11)). Such widespread practice would result in a complete text, however with textual overlapping from possibly different strands of transmission (!). While the material layering is still visually recognizable in the first generation of conflated texts of that kind, this would no longer be the case in the copies made by one scribal hand from this exemplar. If the process was carried on for centuries, only a philological analysis could uncover what lies beneath ?an apparently homogeneous surface. Perhaps the Baksh?li, too, is itself a product?,? ? at the beginning or ?somewhere ? in the middle ?,? of ?a ? repeated process of material layer conflations ?? . Kindly regarding, WS 2017-09-16 1:39 GMT+02:00 Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>: > Dear Prof. Slaje, > > Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the > Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on > the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this > reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your > legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a > bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the > results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my > opinions and be more open to possibilities. > > I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? script > when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, then when > I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge collections, > and more recently when I was completing a survey of the birch-bark > manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their conditions (I was > surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark manuscripts belonging to > what I call the Leitner collection, which are actually mentioned in the > introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and Keith, but that had escaped > my attention so far; anyway, this is yet another story). I am fully aware > that I am a beginner in the field of the paleography of the ??rad? script. > Moreover, I know very well that I am certainly not the most qualified > scholar who could assess the implications of these results for the > palaeography of North Indian scripts, and certainly not at all for the > history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I have been asked to assist > during the whole project of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript in > my role as the curator of the Sanskrit manuscripts in the Bodleian > Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do my homework properly, so to > say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile with the job of school > students. I have taken care of all Indological aspects and implications of > this project very closely since its outset. In our team we are all well > aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in fact we have been in > contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of the project, and the > only reason why we haven't communicated the results to them in advance and > before the press release is because of decisions coming from higher above > us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic metaphor). In fact, I > have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very intensively in the last few > months, alongside Kaye's first edition, Hoernle's article, and several > other articles and books on the topic of zero and the history of > mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, without her wonderful > contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I would have been lost), > as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, your own 1993 book, and > several other publications on the palaeography of Indian scripts (obviously > starting with the one by our great forefather Georg Buehler). The reason > why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from > the team, by the way, except for Prof. du Sautoy?is that this is an article > in a newspaper and hence written for the broader public. As one of my > Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today when I wrote to him that I was > disappointed that none of us from the team was even mentioned in the > Guardian article (above all because two of us are EU citizens, and I > believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control what the press chooses > to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the exclusive on this news > (together with the BBC) and provided with the names of all members of the > team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose to interview and > quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian Richard Ovenden, who > both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If this is what > Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a wider impact on > the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their decision. I > surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to > interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all know how these > things go, don't we? > > Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used > this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do > not fully agree with the statement "The individual *ak?ara*s of the > Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to > their paleographic environment *most conveniently* [italics mine] by > using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely a > technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running a > PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a > pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use > INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for > the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from > Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the > INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project > laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the > Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start > at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows > system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP > (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to > buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the > INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further > implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X > system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I > certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install > this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably > compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, > instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the > Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the > IDP website. > > (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's edition, > since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due to its > poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked permission to > use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's edition, it turned > out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile in Hayashi's edition > is based on photographs of the printed version of Kaye's facsimile.) > > Best wishes, > > Camillo Formigatti > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] > *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM > *To:* Andrea Acri > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of > the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) > > I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the > initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing > is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? > claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily > traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no > Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give > qualified statements. > > > A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript > was brought to the public in 1995: > > Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. > > > The individual *ak?ara*s of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their > extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to > their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of > INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > WS > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info>: > >> Dear Camillo >> >> thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable >> work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset >> that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and >> Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please >> forgive me for being so naive. >> >> If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a >> single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) >> must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about >> this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were >> centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an >> analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of >> the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian >> inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the >> article). >> >> But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of >> ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a >> composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to >> the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your >> key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the >> relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? >> >> Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the >> full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): >> >> "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its >> own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in >> ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, >> but here the answer is left blank". >> >> Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this >> point. >> >> Best regards >> Andrea Acri >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> >> I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: >> >> >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-abo >> ut-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol >> >> >> >> I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after >> reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to >> me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several >> implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our >> field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t >> answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to >> briefly anticipate some of them. >> >> >> >> The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali >> manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of >> colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the >> Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell >> (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of >> the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), >> Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and >> Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the >> School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du >> Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science >> and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take >> samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of >> certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis >> was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The >> results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as >> follows: >> >> >> >> Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD >> >> Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD >> >> 790 (20.6%) 868calAD >> >> Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD >> >> >> >> We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three >> folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the >> background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all >> ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the >> different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other >> dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a >> first palaeographical appraisal of the results. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> >> Camillo >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> >> The Weston Library >> >> Broad Street, Oxford >> >> OX1 3BG >> >> >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> >> >> *GROW YOUR MIND* >> >> in Oxford University?s >> >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Sat Sep 16 09:31:02 2017 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (hellwig7 at gmx.de) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 11:31:02 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <54803AD165FD4A8A91A89AF666B90E9B@OliverHP> Dear Camillo, I would not try too hard to get the executable of Indoskript to work. We (H. Falk and I) are currently preparing an web version of Indoskript, which will go online in the next months. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, Universit?t D?sseldorf From: Walter Slaje Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:03 AM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Andrea Acri ; Indology List ; Oliver Hellwig Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Dr Formigatti, ?? thank you for your detailed and indeed very welcome elucidation! I think, however, there is a need to dispel a possible misunderstanding: The only umbrage I was taking at was the scientist?s zero discovery claim and the lack of any Indological expertise in this sensationalist broadcast, which would ?perhaps have ?be ?en?justified for the radiocarbon dating. It is reassuring to learn about the actual background of the whole undertaking, for which the research team deserves unreserved congratulations, and I would ?be ?the last person not to applaud ? to their efforts??.? What you say about ?the reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team (...) is that this is an article (...) written for the broader public?, invites one to think why a broader public and Indological knowledge should be seen as mutually exclusive? The technical problems with INDOSKRIPT you have pointed out, the advantage of which are its sets of paleographically comparable data, could only be satisfactorily answered by Oliver Hellwig, the programming mastermind behind INDOSKRIPT. A final remark on layers of birch-bark manuscripts: I have documented MSS, where damaged leaves of a text had been supplemented materially by single leaf layers of the same text taken from intact leaves of other MSS (see, e.g., my catalogue of the Viennese MSS collection, 1990, no. 42 (p. 91), no. 53 (p. 103), no. 60 (p. 11)). Such widespread practice would result in a complete text, however with textual overlapping from possibly different strands of transmission (!). While the material layering is still visually recognizable in the first generation of conflated texts of that kind, this would no longer be the case in the copies made by one scribal hand from this exemplar. If the process was carried on for centuries, only a philological analysis could uncover what lies beneath ?an apparently homogeneous surface. Perhaps the Baksh?li, too, is itself a product?,? ? at the beginning or ?somewhere ?in the middle ?,?of ?a ?repeated process of material layer conflations ??. Kindly regarding, WS 2017-09-16 1:39 GMT+02:00 Camillo Formigatti : Dear Prof. Slaje, Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my opinions and be more open to possibilities. I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? script when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, then when I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge collections, and more recently when I was completing a survey of the birch-bark manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their conditions (I was surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark manuscripts belonging to what I call the Leitner collection, which are actually mentioned in the introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and Keith, but that had escaped my attention so far; anyway, this is yet another story). I am fully aware that I am a beginner in the field of the paleography of the ??rad? script. Moreover, I know very well that I am certainly not the most qualified scholar who could assess the implications of these results for the palaeography of North Indian scripts, and certainly not at all for the history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I have been asked to assist during the whole project of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript in my role as the curator of the Sanskrit manuscripts in the Bodleian Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do my homework properly, so to say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile with the job of school students. I have taken care of all Indological aspects and implications of this project very closely since its outset. In our team we are all well aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in fact we have been in contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of the project, and the only reason why we haven't communicated the results to them in advance and before the press release is because of decisions coming from higher above us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic metaphor). In fact, I have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very intensively in the last few months, alongside Kaye's first edition, Hoernle's article, and several other articles and books on the topic of zero and the history of mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, without her wonderful contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I would have been lost), as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, your own 1993 book, and several other publications on the palaeography of Indian scripts (obviously starting with the one by our great forefather Georg Buehler). The reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team, by the way, except for Prof. du Sautoy?is that this is an article in a newspaper and hence written for the broader public. As one of my Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today when I wrote to him that I was disappointed that none of us from the team was even mentioned in the Guardian article (above all because two of us are EU citizens, and I believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control what the press chooses to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the exclusive on this news (together with the BBC) and provided with the names of all members of the team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose to interview and quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian Richard Ovenden, who both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If this is what Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a wider impact on the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their decision. I surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all know how these things go, don't we? Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do not fully agree with the statement "The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently [italics mine] by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely a technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running a PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the IDP website. (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's edition, since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due to its poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked permission to use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's edition, it turned out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile in Hayashi's edition is based on photographs of the printed version of Kaye's facsimile.) Best wishes, Camillo Formigatti ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM To: Andrea Acri Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give qualified statements. A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript was brought to the public in 1995: Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): Best regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY : Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Sat Sep 16 09:58:38 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 09:58:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <54803AD165FD4A8A91A89AF666B90E9B@OliverHP> Message-ID: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523BCEBDF@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Oliver, I had heard rumors about this enterprise of yours and I was almost losing hope to see it, this is simply great news! Will there be the possibility to enlarge the corpus? May I supply you with ak?aras of Nepalese and Central Asian manuscripts I'm currently working on for projects unrelated to the Bakhshali? It would be great to have a broader basis of manuscripts for INDOSKRIPT, above all since I have access to ten of thousands of images of folios from the Cambridge collections. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: hellwig7 at gmx.de [hellwig7 at gmx.de] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:31 AM To: Walter Slaje; Camillo Formigatti Cc: Andrea Acri; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillo, I would not try too hard to get the executable of Indoskript to work. We (H. Falk and I) are currently preparing an web version of Indoskript, which will go online in the next months. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, Universit?t D?sseldorf From: Walter Slaje Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:03 AM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Andrea Acri ; Indology List ; Oliver Hellwig Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Dr Formigatti, ?? thank you for your detailed and indeed very welcome elucidation! I think, however, there is a need to dispel a possible misunderstanding: The only umbrage I was taking at was the scientist?s zero discovery claim and the lack of any Indological expertise in this sensationalist broadcast, which would ?perhaps have ? be ?en? justified for the radiocarbon dating. It is reassuring to learn about the actual background of the whole undertaking, for which the research team deserves unreserved congratulations, and I would ?be ? the last person not to applaud ? to their efforts? ?. ? What you say about ?the reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team (...) is that this is an article (...) written for the broader public?, invites one to think why a broader public and Indological knowledge should be seen as mutually exclusive? The technical problems with INDOSKRIPT you have pointed out, the advantage of which are its sets of paleographically comparable data, could only be satisfactorily answered by Oliver Hellwig, the programming mastermind behind INDOSKRIPT. A final remark on layers of birch-bark manuscripts: I have documented MSS, where damaged leaves of a text had been supplemented materially by single leaf layers of the same text taken from intact leaves of other MSS (see, e.g., my catalogue of the Viennese MSS collection, 1990, no. 42 (p. 91), no. 53 (p. 103), no. 60 (p. 11)). Such widespread practice would result in a complete text, however with textual overlapping from possibly different strands of transmission (!). While the material layering is still visually recognizable in the first generation of conflated texts of that kind, this would no longer be the case in the copies made by one scribal hand from this exemplar. If the process was carried on for centuries, only a philological analysis could uncover what lies beneath ?an apparently homogeneous surface. Perhaps the Baksh?li, too, is itself a product?,? ? at the beginning or ?somewhere ? in the middle ?,? of ?a ? repeated process of material layer conflations ?? . Kindly regarding, WS 2017-09-16 1:39 GMT+02:00 Camillo Formigatti >: Dear Prof. Slaje, Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my opinions and be more open to possibilities. I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? script when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, then when I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge collections, and more recently when I was completing a survey of the birch-bark manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their conditions (I was surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark manuscripts belonging to what I call the Leitner collection, which are actually mentioned in the introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and Keith, but that had escaped my attention so far; anyway, this is yet another story). I am fully aware that I am a beginner in the field of the paleography of the ??rad? script. Moreover, I know very well that I am certainly not the most qualified scholar who could assess the implications of these results for the palaeography of North Indian scripts, and certainly not at all for the history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I have been asked to assist during the whole project of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript in my role as the curator of the Sanskrit manuscripts in the Bodleian Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do my homework properly, so to say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile with the job of school students. I have taken care of all Indological aspects and implications of this project very closely since its outset. In our team we are all well aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in fact we have been in contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of the project, and the only reason why we haven't communicated the results to them in advance and before the press release is because of decisions coming from higher above us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic metaphor). In fact, I have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very intensively in the last few months, alongside Kaye's first edition, Hoernle's article, and several other articles and books on the topic of zero and the history of mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, without her wonderful contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I would have been lost), as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, your own 1993 book, and several other publications on the palaeography of Indian scripts (obviously starting with the one by our great forefather Georg Buehler). The reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team, by the way, except for Prof. du Sautoy?is that this is an article in a newspaper and hence written for the broader public. As one of my Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today when I wrote to him that I was disappointed that none of us from the team was even mentioned in the Guardian article (above all because two of us are EU citizens, and I believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control what the press chooses to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the exclusive on this news (together with the BBC) and provided with the names of all members of the team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose to interview and quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian Richard Ovenden, who both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If this is what Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a wider impact on the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their decision. I surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all know how these things go, don't we? Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do not fully agree with the statement "The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently [italics mine] by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely a technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running a PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the IDP website. (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's edition, since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due to its poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked permission to use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's edition, it turned out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile in Hayashi's edition is based on photographs of the printed version of Kaye's facsimile.) Best wishes, Camillo Formigatti ________________________________ From: Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM To: Andrea Acri Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give qualified statements. A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript was brought to the public in 1995: Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): [X] Best regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY >: Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Sat Sep 16 15:53:24 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 15:53:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <6DA93FA0-EECD-4381-8A7C-3A1580CE0F32@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9804dded-aba2-41aa-854b-8014f9929140@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Agathe, Thank you for specifying the content aspect of folio 16v and 17r. I have to say however that in cases like this the fact that there is a relationship in content of the text does not always mean that the two folios were produced at the same time. In my modest experience as a cataloguer, it can be quite tricky to establish the correct stratigraphy of composite manuscripts. In fact, if I understand correctly the edition and translation by Hayashi (many thanks, your work is masterpiece of textual scholarship and it saved me during the last months!), the first example for sutra 27 finishes on folio 16v, and on folio 17r a new verification begins, followed by another example. In my modest opinion, this is not so conclusive as it might look at a first glance, as we could always argue that the verification and the second example (which is not marked as such in the manuscript, if I understand correctly the editorial practice, the use of the brackets, and if I read correctly the manuscript) were added in a second moment to verify and explain the sutra further. I'm afraid that we don't have a smoking gun, so to say, to be totally sure that the two folios are contiguous, although it is obviously that it is most probable that they are indeed contiguous. This doesn't necessarily mean however that they were written at the same time, since the upper part of folio 17 is missing and therefore we cannot be sure that the text was continuous between the two folios. All we can know is that on folio 17r there is a verification for the sutra on folio 16v and a second example, but we cannot know for sure whether they were added later or not. Still, I'm not doubting the order of the folios here, only that we cannot be sure that they were written at the same time. As to the analysis of the ink, I know of the laboratory at the CSMC in Hamburg, as I used to work in the predecessor of the CSMC. I am not sure though how far it could help us to know about the composition of the ink in solving the conundrum of the date. When I was in Cambridge we analysed the inks used in miniatures of a Pancaraksa manuscript, but all we could get to know was the composition of the ink, surely not the date. I'm not totally sure, but if I remember correctly, if the ink was produced also with mineral substances, then the radiocarbon dating wouldn't be totally reliable. All we would know from the analysis of the ink would be whether they used the same type of ink or not on the two folios. Surely this would help us a bit more, but again it wouldn't be totally conclusive. Finally, I have given a lot of thought before introducing in my report the statement about the function of the Bakhshali manuscript(s). I understand fully and totally agree with you that "many of the general procedures and problems found in the BM have echoes in problems and procedures found in the highbrow scholarly mathematical chapters of later sanskrit siddh?ntas. As any historian of mathematics could tell you, apparently ?practical? problems are sometimes pretexts for theoretical considerations?" Indeed this is natural (didn't it happen in late medieval Europe as well? I'm thinking of the rising trade and merchant corporations). I'm not saying that merchants wrote the texts in the Bakhshali, what I am saying is that it makes a hell of a lot of sense that precisely this type of practical problems?and not, for instance, an overwhelming number of astrological calculations?are found in this manuscript (or manuscripts?). Also, the style of the texts obviously points to a scholarly context, but we have to bear in mind that the language per se is not Paninian Sanskrit, it is rather a sort of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. I kindly have to ask you however to wait until I finish to write the article, if you don't mind. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: Agathe Keller [kelleragathe600 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 1:01 PM To: Camillo Formigatti; Takao Hayashi Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillio, Dear all, Thank you indeed for telling us a bit more of the context of your work and the general decision to go public about it. Just to specify things, contents wise, since there is a textual continuity between the recto and verso of folio 16, and since there is a mathematical continuity between the verso of folio 16 and the recto of folio 17 (the resolution and then verification of the result of an example), there are indeed two possibilities: either folio 17 is a copy of an older folio that had deteriorated, either somebody used an older birch bark (folio 16) and a new one (folio 17) while writing this part of the text. So i concur with everybody either paleography, or a technique to analyze the ink on both folios will help us clear what is in all cases a very fascinating spotlight on how the Bakh??l? manuscript was made. I might be wrong but in Hamburg, at the center for Manuscript Studies, I recall that they had a kind of unobstrutive infra-red reading technique that could reveal the contents of ink pigments? so such techniques exist and could tell us more about the BM as well. The BM is unique in the history of mathematics in South Asia because it was unearthed and not found and preserved in a library collection. So it would be fascinating if it, itself testifies to a process of continuous copy! Of course we would all love to be able to contextualise the texts we work on: who used them, who made them, etc. Even more so for a text that is in itself a historical artifact and not a late copy of an older text. For this reason, I would really like to know on what basis you think that : The content of the Bakhshali manuscript is similar to the type of texts that Buddhist merchants would have needed to study (and possibly use as reference) for their daily trading activities. It includes very practical mathematical examples and equations, such as how to compute the loss in weight of a quantity of impure metal in the process of refining it, etc. because actually many of the general procedures and problems found in the BM have echoes in problems and procedures found in the highbrow scholarly mathematical chapters of later sanskrit siddh?ntas. As any historian of mathematics could tell you, apparently ?practical? problems are sometimes pretexts for theoretical considerations?and much of the features of the BM such as the use of ?verifications/proofs? points to this. Further wouldn?t the language used in the BM precisely point rather to a scholarly context? But i confess my ignorance on the milieus of buddhist merchants on the silk road, (the Dunhuang manuscripts I know of all have mathematical texts in chineese), and would be happy for any lights on this topic! All this said, I do find shocking the Bodleian?s choice of a press release before the publication of a peer reviewed article? yours Agathe Keller CNRS-Universit? Paris Diderot On 16 Sep 2017, at 11:58, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Oliver, I had heard rumors about this enterprise of yours and I was almost losing hope to see it, this is simply great news! Will there be the possibility to enlarge the corpus? May I supply you with ak?aras of Nepalese and Central Asian manuscripts I'm currently working on for projects unrelated to the Bakhshali? It would be great to have a broader basis of manuscripts for INDOSKRIPT, above all since I have access to ten of thousands of images of folios from the Cambridge collections. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: hellwig7 at gmx.de [hellwig7 at gmx.de] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:31 AM To: Walter Slaje; Camillo Formigatti Cc: Andrea Acri; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillo, I would not try too hard to get the executable of Indoskript to work. We (H. Falk and I) are currently preparing an web version of Indoskript, which will go online in the next months. Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, Universit?t D?sseldorf From: Walter Slaje Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:03 AM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Andrea Acri ; Indology List ; Oliver Hellwig Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Dr Formigatti, ?? thank you for your detailed and indeed very welcome elucidation! I think, however, there is a need to dispel a possible misunderstanding: The only umbrage I was taking at was the scientist?s zero discovery claim and the lack of any Indological expertise in this sensationalist broadcast, which would ?perhaps have ? be ?en? justified for the radiocarbon dating. It is reassuring to learn about the actual background of the whole undertaking, for which the research team deserves unreserved congratulations, and I would ?be ? the last person not to applaud ? to their efforts? ?. ? What you say about ?the reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team (...) is that this is an article (...) written for the broader public?, invites one to think why a broader public and Indological knowledge should be seen as mutually exclusive? The technical problems with INDOSKRIPT you have pointed out, the advantage of which are its sets of paleographically comparable data, could only be satisfactorily answered by Oliver Hellwig, the programming mastermind behind INDOSKRIPT. A final remark on layers of birch-bark manuscripts: I have documented MSS, where damaged leaves of a text had been supplemented materially by single leaf layers of the same text taken from intact leaves of other MSS (see, e.g., my catalogue of the Viennese MSS collection, 1990, no. 42 (p. 91), no. 53 (p. 103), no. 60 (p. 11)). Such widespread practice would result in a complete text, however with textual overlapping from possibly different strands of transmission (!). While the material layering is still visually recognizable in the first generation of conflated texts of that kind, this would no longer be the case in the copies made by one scribal hand from this exemplar. If the process was carried on for centuries, only a philological analysis could uncover what lies beneath ?an apparently homogeneous surface. Perhaps the Baksh?li, too, is itself a product?,? ? at the beginning or ?somewhere ? in the middle ?,? of ?a ? repeated process of material layer conflations ?? . Kindly regarding, WS 2017-09-16 1:39 GMT+02:00 Camillo Formigatti >: Dear Prof. Slaje, Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my opinions and be more open to possibilities. I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? script when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, then when I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge collections, and more recently when I was completing a survey of the birch-bark manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their conditions (I was surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark manuscripts belonging to what I call the Leitner collection, which are actually mentioned in the introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and Keith, but that had escaped my attention so far; anyway, this is yet another story). I am fully aware that I am a beginner in the field of the paleography of the ??rad? script. Moreover, I know very well that I am certainly not the most qualified scholar who could assess the implications of these results for the palaeography of North Indian scripts, and certainly not at all for the history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I have been asked to assist during the whole project of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript in my role as the curator of the Sanskrit manuscripts in the Bodleian Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do my homework properly, so to say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile with the job of school students. I have taken care of all Indological aspects and implications of this project very closely since its outset. In our team we are all well aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in fact we have been in contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of the project, and the only reason why we haven't communicated the results to them in advance and before the press release is because of decisions coming from higher above us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic metaphor). In fact, I have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very intensively in the last few months, alongside Kaye's first edition, Hoernle's article, and several other articles and books on the topic of zero and the history of mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, without her wonderful contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I would have been lost), as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, your own 1993 book, and several other publications on the palaeography of Indian scripts (obviously starting with the one by our great forefather Georg Buehler). The reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team, by the way, except for Prof. du Sautoy?is that this is an article in a newspaper and hence written for the broader public. As one of my Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today when I wrote to him that I was disappointed that none of us from the team was even mentioned in the Guardian article (above all because two of us are EU citizens, and I believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control what the press chooses to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the exclusive on this news (together with the BBC) and provided with the names of all members of the team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose to interview and quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian Richard Ovenden, who both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If this is what Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a wider impact on the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their decision. I surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all know how these things go, don't we? Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do not fully agree with the statement "The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently [italics mine] by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely a technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running a PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the IDP website. (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's edition, since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due to its poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked permission to use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's edition, it turned out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile in Hayashi's edition is based on photographs of the printed version of Kaye's facsimile.) Best wishes, Camillo Formigatti ________________________________ From: Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM To: Andrea Acri Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give qualified statements. A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript was brought to the public in 1995: Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): [X] Best regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY >: Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adheesh1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 18:45:42 2017 From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (adheesh sathaye) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 11:45:42 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] REMINDER: 17th World Sanskrit Conference Abstracts due Oct 1 Message-ID: <8ED59092-C8BD-4632-9C8F-FF4C31B2A193@gmail.com> REMINDER: WSC 2018 Paper Abstract Submissions Due Oct. 1 17th World Sanskrit Conference ? Vancouver, Canada ? July 9-13, 2018 Dear Colleagues, This is a friendly reminder that there are only TWO WEEKS left to submit an individual paper abstract for the 17th World Sanskrit Conference, to be held in Vancouver, Canada, July 9-13, 2018. The last day to submit a proposal is OCTOBER 1, 2017. If you haven't already done so, we encourage you to submit your abstracts in a timely manner. Please also encourage your colleagues and students to do the same, as we eagerly look forward to welcoming you all to Vancouver next year for the World Sanskrit Conference! To begin the submission process, please visit our online submissions portal: https://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/ocs/wsc/2018/schedConf/cfp, where you will see the specific instructions for preparing a submission. If you have already submitted your abstract, you may also login to the portal again through the link above to manage/edit your submission and track its progress. If you encounter any difficulties with the portal please get in touch with the WSC Secretariat (wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca), and we will assist you in the process. Some additional tips and notes: * All proposals must be made through the online portal. We CANNOT accept emailed scans or PDFs. * Because of limited space and time, each presenter may submit only one paper abstract for inclusion in the conference. * Papers may be delivered in Sanskrit, English, or French. All correspondence with the Secretariat should also be in one of these three languages. * A list of the 21 regular and 3 special sections of the WSC can be found here: https://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/conference-information/submissions-sections-convenors/. * As you select your section during the proposal submission process, you may find that you need to scroll down *within* the menu to find sections 16 and beyond, depending on how your computer or device is set up. * Abstracts should be prepared using Unicode input methods, and you should use a modern operating system (Mac OSX, Linux, Windows 7+, and most smartphones and tablets). Please note that the WSC website does not function on devices running Windows XP. * Review of papers will begin in October 2017 and results will be announced January 2018 (early confirmation for visa purposes will be available in November 2017 for applicants from South/Southeast Asia). Help spread the word! Please encourage your colleagues and students to visit the website (wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca) and submit an individual paper proposal by October 1. As always, for up-to-date information, please consult the main conference website, wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca, and do not hesitate to contact the WSC2018 Secretariat (wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca) for further assistance. ============================================================ ? Dr. Adheesh Sathaye Associate Professor of Sanskrit Literature and South Asian Folklore Dept. of Asian Studies || University of British Columbia 408-1871 West Mall || Vancouver, BC CANADA V6T1Z2 adheesh at mail.ubc.ca || +1.604.822.5188 Lead Organizer, 17th World Sanskrit Conference, Vancouver, Canada, July 9-13, 2018 http://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca || wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca || ????? ??????? ???????? ?? From bgalasek at googlemail.com Sat Sep 16 22:26:35 2017 From: bgalasek at googlemail.com (Bruno Galasek) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 17 15:26:35 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] contact info Mr Charles Allen Message-ID: Dear list-members, I would very much appreciate, if someone on this list could kindly provide me off-list with a functioning email address of Mr Charles Allen (author of, among others, *The Prisoner of Kathmandu: Brian Hodgson in Nepal 1820-43*). Many thanks! Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. bgalasek at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 20:50:57 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 17 14:50:57 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <54803AD165FD4A8A91A89AF666B90E9B@OliverHP> Message-ID: great news! I've had similar struggles to Camillo, and was sad that such a fabulous tool was apparently out of reach. ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 16 September 2017 at 03:31, Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Camillo, > > I would not try too hard to get the executable of Indoskript to work. We > (H. Falk and I) are currently preparing an web version of Indoskript, which > will go online in the next months. > > Best, Oliver > > --- > Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, Universit?t D?sseldorf > > *From:* Walter Slaje > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 11:03 AM > *To:* Camillo Formigatti > *Cc:* Andrea Acri ; Indology List > ; Oliver Hellwig > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of > the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) > > > Dear Dr Formigatti, > > ?? > > thank you for your detailed and indeed very welcome elucidation! > > I think, however, there is a need to dispel a possible misunderstanding: > The only umbrage I was taking at was the scientist?s zero discovery claim > and the lack of any Indological expertise in this sensationalist broadcast, > which would > ?perhaps have ? > be > ?en? > justified for the radiocarbon dating. It is reassuring to learn about the > actual background of the whole undertaking, for which the research team > deserves unreserved congratulations, and I would > ?be ? > the last person not to applaud > ? to their efforts? > ?. > > ? > > What you say about ?the reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the > Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team (...) is that this is an > article (...) written for the broader public?, invites one to think why a > broader public and Indological knowledge should be seen as mutually > exclusive? > > > The technical problems with INDOSKRIPT you have pointed out, the advantage > of which are its sets of paleographically comparable data, could only be > satisfactorily answered by Oliver Hellwig, the programming mastermind > behind INDOSKRIPT. > > > A final remark on layers of birch-bark manuscripts: I have documented MSS, > where damaged leaves of a text had been supplemented materially by single > leaf layers of the same text taken from intact leaves of other MSS (see, > e.g., my catalogue of the Viennese MSS collection, 1990, no. 42 (p. 91), > no. 53 (p. 103), no. 60 (p. 11)). Such widespread practice would result in > a complete text, however with textual overlapping from possibly different > strands of transmission (!). While the material layering is still visually > recognizable in the first generation of conflated texts of that kind, this > would no longer be the case in the copies made by one scribal hand from > this exemplar. If the process was carried on for centuries, only a > philological analysis could uncover what lies beneath > ?an apparently homogeneous surface. > > > Perhaps the Baksh?li, too, is itself a product?,? > ? at the beginning or > ?somewhere ? > in the middle > ?,? > of > ?a ? > repeated process of material layer conflations > ?? > . > > > > Kindly regarding, > > WS > > > > > 2017-09-16 1:39 GMT+02:00 Camillo Formigatti ox.ac.uk>: > >> Dear Prof. Slaje, >> >> Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the >> Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on >> the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this >> reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your >> legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a >> bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the >> results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my >> opinions and be more open to possibilities. >> >> I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? >> script when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, >> then when I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge >> collections, and more recently when I was completing a survey of the >> birch-bark manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their >> conditions (I was surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark >> manuscripts belonging to what I call the Leitner collection, which are >> actually mentioned in the introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and >> Keith, but that had escaped my attention so far; anyway, this is yet >> another story). I am fully aware that I am a beginner in the field of the >> paleography of the ??rad? script. Moreover, I know very well that I am >> certainly not the most qualified scholar who could assess the implications >> of these results for the palaeography of North Indian scripts, and >> certainly not at all for the history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I >> have been asked to assist during the whole project of radiocarbon dating >> the Bakhshali manuscript in my role as the curator of the Sanskrit >> manuscripts in the Bodleian Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do >> my homework properly, so to say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile >> with the job of school students. I have taken care of all Indological >> aspects and implications of this project very closely since its outset. In >> our team we are all well aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in >> fact we have been in contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of >> the project, and the only reason why we haven't communicated the results to >> them in advance and before the press release is because of decisions coming >> from higher above us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic >> metaphor). In fact, I have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very >> intensively in the last few months, alongside Kaye's first edition, >> Hoernle's article, and several other articles and books on the topic of >> zero and the history of mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, >> without her wonderful contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I >> would have been lost), as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, >> your own 1993 book, and several other publications on the palaeography of >> Indian scripts (obviously starting with the one by our great forefather >> Georg Buehler). The reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian >> article?nor is any of us from the team, by the way, except for Prof. du >> Sautoy?is that this is an article in a newspaper and hence written for the >> broader public. As one of my Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today >> when I wrote to him that I was disappointed that none of us from the team >> was even mentioned in the Guardian article (above all because two of us are >> EU citizens, and I believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control >> what the press chooses to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the >> exclusive on this news (together with the BBC) and provided with the names >> of all members of the team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose >> to interview and quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian >> Richard Ovenden, who both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If >> this is what Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a >> wider impact on the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their >> decision. I surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot >> more sense to interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all >> know how these things go, don't we? >> >> Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used >> this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do >> not fully agree with the statement "The individual *ak?ara*s of the >> Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to >> their paleographic environment *most conveniently* [italics mine] by >> using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely >> a technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running >> a PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a >> pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use >> INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for >> the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from >> Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the >> INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project >> laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the >> Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start >> at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows >> system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP >> (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to >> buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the >> INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further >> implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X >> system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I >> certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install >> this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably >> compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, >> instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the >> Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the >> IDP website. >> >> (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's >> edition, since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due >> to its poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked >> permission to use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's >> edition, it turned out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile >> in Hayashi's edition is based on photographs of the printed version of >> Kaye's facsimile.) >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Camillo Formigatti >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] >> *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM >> *To:* Andrea Acri >> *Cc:* Indology List >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of >> the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) >> >> I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the >> initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing >> is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? >> claimed here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily >> traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no >> Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give >> qualified statements. >> >> >> A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript >> was brought to the public in 1995: >> >> Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. >> >> >> The individual *ak?ara*s of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their >> extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to >> their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of >> INDOSKRIPT (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> WS >> >> ----------------------------- >> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >> D-99425 Weimar >> Deutschland >> >> Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor >> studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum >> non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, >> sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus >> humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. >> Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. >> >> 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info>: >> >>> Dear Camillo >>> >>> thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable >>> work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset >>> that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and >>> Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please >>> forgive me for being so naive. >>> >>> If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain >>> a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) >>> must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about >>> this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were >>> centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an >>> analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of >>> the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian >>> inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the >>> article). >>> >>> But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables >>> of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a >>> composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to >>> the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your >>> key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the >>> relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? >>> >>> Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the >>> full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): >>> >>> "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its >>> own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in >>> ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, >>> but here the answer is left blank". >>> >>> Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this >>> point. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Andrea Acri >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-abo >>> ut-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol >>> >>> >>> >>> I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after >>> reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to >>> me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several >>> implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our >>> field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t >>> answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to >>> briefly anticipate some of them. >>> >>> >>> >>> The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali >>> manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of >>> colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the >>> Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell >>> (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of >>> the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), >>> Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and >>> Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the >>> School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du >>> Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science >>> and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take >>> samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of >>> certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis >>> was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The >>> results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as >>> follows: >>> >>> >>> >>> Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD >>> >>> Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD >>> >>> 790 (20.6%) 868calAD >>> >>> Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD >>> >>> >>> >>> We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three >>> folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the >>> background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all >>> ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the >>> different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other >>> dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a >>> first palaeographical appraisal of the results. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> >>> >>> Camillo >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >>> >>> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >>> >>> >>> >>> Bodleian Libraries >>> >>> The Weston Library >>> >>> Broad Street, Oxford >>> >>> OX1 3BG >>> >>> >>> >>> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> Tel. (office): 01865 <01%20865> (2)77208 >>> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> >>> *GROW YOUR MIND* >>> >>> in Oxford University?s >>> >>> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >>> >>> www.mindgrowing.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 21:52:46 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 17 15:52:46 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Auto-discard notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For technical reasons, Agathe Keller's posts on the Bakhshali discussion were not circulated to the INDOLOGY list at large. I will post them in this and the next emails. Dominik Wujastyk, INDOLOGY committee member. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Agathe Keller To: Karine Chemla Cc: Indology List Bcc: Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 07:12:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear all, Dear Camillo, Concerning the use of a small circle to denote an empty space, and thus zero in the decimal place value notation. Takao Hayashi in his reference study of the text more than twenty years ago (*The Bakhsh?l? Manuscript: An Ancient Indian Mathematical Treatise *Egbert Forsten, 1995) wrote on p. 89: " A dot (?) is used for denoting a vacant place both in the decimal notation and in the ?Statement? or the tabular presentation of numerical data in the BM: in the former case it stands for a cipher, and in the latter for an unknwon number. So nothing is new here, despite what seems to claim Marcus du Sautoy in the video associated with the article. I think we would all like to know if indeed, it is possible to date and analyze the ink used on the birch bark. Just to be sure also that we get the information you are providing us right, is it that according to your study folio 16 would be almost certainly from a date ranging in between 224 and 383 of the CE while folio 17 and 33 would be of much later date? Can you tell us just a bit more about what is a calibrated age and a confidence interval? yours Agathe Keller On 15 Sep 2017, at 02:41, Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Dear Camillo thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. Best regards Andrea Acri Sent from my iPhone On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: Dear Colleagues, I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado- about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD 790 (20.6%) 868calAD Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. Best wishes, Camillo ------------------------------ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti John Clay Sanskrit Librarian Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 <01%20865> (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk *GROW YOUR MIND* in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 21:55:59 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 17 15:55:59 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Auto-discard notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Agathe Keller To: Camillo Formigatti , Takao Hayashi Cc: Indology List Bcc: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 14:01:07 +0200 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillio, Dear all, Thank you indeed for telling us a bit more of the context of your work and the general decision to go public about it. Just to specify things, contents wise, since there is a textual continuity between the recto and verso of folio 16, and since there is a mathematical continuity between the verso of folio 16 and the recto of folio 17 (the resolution and then verification of the result of an example), there are indeed two possibilities: either folio 17 is a copy of an older folio that had deteriorated, either somebody used an older birch bark (folio 16) and a new one (folio 17) while writing this part of the text. So i concur with everybody either paleography, or a technique to analyze the ink on both folios will help us clear what is in all cases a very fascinating spotlight on how the Bakh??l? manuscript was made. I might be wrong but in Hamburg, at the center for Manuscript Studies, I recall that they had a kind of unobstrutive infra-red reading technique that could reveal the contents of ink pigments? so such techniques exist and could tell us more about the BM as well. The BM is unique in the history of mathematics in South Asia because it was unearthed and not found and preserved in a library collection. So it would be fascinating if it, itself testifies to a process of continuous copy! Of course we would all love to be able to contextualise the texts we work on: who used them, who made them, etc. Even more so for a text that is in itself a historical artifact and not a late copy of an older text. For this reason, I would really like to know on what basis you think that : The content of the Bakhshali manuscript is similar to the type of texts that Buddhist merchants would have needed to study (and possibly use as reference) for their daily trading activities. It includes very practical mathematical examples and equations, such as how to compute the loss in weight of a quantity of impure metal in the process of refining it, etc. because actually many of the general procedures and problems found in the BM have echoes in problems and procedures found in the highbrow scholarly mathematical chapters of later sanskrit siddh?ntas. As any historian of mathematics could tell you, apparently ?practical? problems are sometimes pretexts for theoretical considerations?and much of the features of the BM such as the use of ?verifications/proofs? points to this. Further wouldn?t the language used in the BM precisely point rather to a scholarly context? But i confess my ignorance on the milieus of buddhist merchants on the silk road, (the Dunhuang manuscripts I know of all have mathematical texts in chineese), and would be happy for any lights on this topic! All this said, I do find shocking the Bodleian?s choice of a press release before the publication of a peer reviewed article? yours Agathe Keller CNRS-Universit? Paris Diderot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 22:01:30 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 17 16:01:30 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Auto-discard notification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Agathe Keller To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: Takao Hayashi , Indology List < indology at list.indology.info> Bcc: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 18:11:48 +0200 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillo, Thank you for your detailed and pondered reply. Concerning the ink, I thought simply that if there is a difference of ink composition from one folio to another, this could help determine if for instance folio 16 and folio 17 were written at different times. yours Agathe On 16 Sep 2017, at 17:53, Camillo Formigatti wrote: Dear Agathe, Thank you for specifying the content aspect of folio 16v and 17r. I have to say however that in cases like this the fact that there is a relationship in content of the text does not always mean that the two folios were produced at the same time. In my modest experience as a cataloguer, it can be quite tricky to establish the correct stratigraphy of composite manuscripts. In fact, if I understand correctly the edition and translation by Hayashi (many thanks, your work is masterpiece of textual scholarship and it saved me during the last months!), the first example for sutra 27 finishes on folio 16v, and on folio 17r a new verification begins, followed by another example. In my modest opinion, this is not so conclusive as it might look at a first glance, as we could always argue that the verification and the second example (which is not marked as such in the manuscript, if I understand correctly the editorial practice, the use of the brackets, and if I read correctly the manuscript) were added in a second moment to verify and explain the sutra further. I'm afraid that we don't have a smoking gun, so to say, to be totally sure that the two folios are contiguous, although it is obviously that it is most probable that they are indeed contiguous. This doesn't necessarily mean however that they were written at the same time, since the upper part of folio 17 is missing and therefore we cannot be sure that the text was continuous between the two folios. All we can know is that on folio 17r there is a verification for the sutra on folio 16v and a second example, but we cannot know for sure whether they were added later or not. Still, I'm not doubting the order of the folios here, only that we cannot be sure that they were written at the same time. As to the analysis of the ink, I know of the laboratory at the CSMC in Hamburg, as I used to work in the predecessor of the CSMC. I am not sure though how far it could help us to know about the composition of the ink in solving the conundrum of the date. When I was in Cambridge we analysed the inks used in miniatures of a Pancaraksa manuscript, but all we could get to know was the composition of the ink, surely not the date. I'm not totally sure, but if I remember correctly, if the ink was produced also with mineral substances, then the radiocarbon dating wouldn't be totally reliable. All we would know from the analysis of the ink would be whether they used the same type of ink or not on the two folios. Surely this would help us a bit more, but again it wouldn't be totally conclusive. Finally, I have given a lot of thought before introducing in my report the statement about the function of the Bakhshali manuscript(s). I understand fully and totally agree with you that "many of the general procedures and problems found in the BM have echoes in problems and procedures found in the highbrow scholarly mathematical chapters of later sanskrit siddh?ntas. As any historian of mathematics could tell you, apparently ?practical? problems are sometimes pretexts for theoretical considerations?" Indeed this is natural (didn't it happen in late medieval Europe as well? I'm thinking of the rising trade and merchant corporations). I'm not saying that merchants wrote the texts in the Bakhshali, what I am saying is that it makes a hell of a lot of sense that precisely this type of practical problems?and not, for instance, an overwhelming number of astrological calculations?are found in this manuscript (or manuscripts?). Also, the style of the texts obviously points to a scholarly context, but we have to bear in mind that the language per se is not Paninian Sanskrit, it is rather a sort of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. I kindly have to ask you however to wait until I finish to write the article, if you don't mind. Best wishes, Camillo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Sun Sep 17 22:33:30 2017 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 17 22:33:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] BM ink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: NB: if the ink was made of burnt almond nuts mixed with cow urine, as it was done some centuries before B?hler?s visit (1875), it could be C14-tested like other organic materials. This kind of ink does not dissolve in water (the same is seen in older Nepalese palm mss.) One note of caution : Pandits in 1875 no longer knew how to prepare the ink, and we have the testimony of Jonar?ja (c. 1420-1450 CE) about a forgery in a document (see W.Slaje*), where the forged document was put in water and the older text re-appeared. Does this mean that already by c. 1450 the old style ink was no longer used or wasn?t it just in this particular case of clumsy forgery? Probably the latter as we have birch bark mss. written with this ink from as late as 1675 CE. (The Kashmirian Atharvaveda (at T?bingen was inserted in water before preparing the color facsimile.**) My 2 cents? Michael *) Slaje, W. Medieval Kashmir and the Science of History. South Asia Institute. University of Texas at Austin 2004 **) Bloomfield, Maurice and Richard Garbe (eds.). The Kashmirian Atharva-Veda (School of the Paippal?das). Reproduced by Chromatography from the Manuscript in the University Library T?bingen 3 parts. Baltimore 1901. On Sep 17, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY > wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Agathe Keller > To: Camillo Formigatti > Cc: Takao Hayashi >, Indology List > Bcc: Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 18:11:48 +0200 Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dear Camillo, Thank you for your detailed and pondered reply. Concerning the ink, I thought simply that if there is a difference of ink composition from one folio to another, this could help determine if for instance folio 16 and folio 17 were written at different times. yours Agathe On 16 Sep 2017, at 17:53, Camillo Formigatti > wrote: Dear Agathe, Thank you for specifying the content aspect of folio 16v and 17r. I have to say however that in cases like this the fact that there is a relationship in content of the text does not always mean that the two folios were produced at the same time. In my modest experience as a cataloguer, it can be quite tricky to establish the correct stratigraphy of composite manuscripts. In fact, if I understand correctly the edition and translation by Hayashi (many thanks, your work is masterpiece of textual scholarship and it saved me during the last months!), the first example for sutra 27 finishes on folio 16v, and on folio 17r a new verification begins, followed by another example. In my modest opinion, this is not so conclusive as it might look at a first glance, as we could always argue that the verification and the second example (which is not marked as such in the manuscript, if I understand correctly the editorial practice, the use of the brackets, and if I read correctly the manuscript) were added in a second moment to verify and explain the sutra further. I'm afraid that we don't have a smoking gun, so to say, to be totally sure that the two folios are contiguous, although it is obviously that it is most probable that they are indeed contiguous. This doesn't necessarily mean however that they were written at the same time, since the upper part of folio 17 is missing and therefore we cannot be sure that the text was continuous between the two folios. All we can know is that on folio 17r there is a verification for the sutra on folio 16v and a second example, but we cannot know for sure whether they were added later or not. Still, I'm not doubting the order of the folios here, only that we cannot be sure that they were written at the same time. As to the analysis of the ink, I know of the laboratory at the CSMC in Hamburg, as I used to work in the predecessor of the CSMC. I am not sure though how far it could help us to know about the composition of the ink in solving the conundrum of the date. When I was in Cambridge we analysed the inks used in miniatures of a Pancaraksa manuscript, but all we could get to know was the composition of the ink, surely not the date. I'm not totally sure, but if I remember correctly, if the ink was produced also with mineral substances, then the radiocarbon dating wouldn't be totally reliable. All we would know from the analysis of the ink would be whether they used the same type of ink or not on the two folios. Surely this would help us a bit more, but again it wouldn't be totally conclusive. Finally, I have given a lot of thought before introducing in my report the statement about the function of the Bakhshali manuscript(s). I understand fully and totally agree with you that "many of the general procedures and problems found in the BM have echoes in problems and procedures found in the highbrow scholarly mathematical chapters of later sanskrit siddh?ntas. As any historian of mathematics could tell you, apparently ?practical? problems are sometimes pretexts for theoretical considerations?" Indeed this is natural (didn't it happen in late medieval Europe as well? I'm thinking of the rising trade and merchant corporations). I'm not saying that merchants wrote the texts in the Bakhshali, what I am saying is that it makes a hell of a lot of sense that precisely this type of practical problems?and not, for instance, an overwhelming number of astrological calculations?are found in this manuscript (or manuscripts?). Also, the style of the texts obviously points to a scholarly context, but we have to bear in mind that the language per se is not Paninian Sanskrit, it is rather a sort of Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. I kindly have to ask you however to wait until I finish to write the article, if you don't mind. Best wishes, Camillo _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Mon Sep 18 04:10:37 2017 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 17 16:10:37 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Indica et Buddhica] An author-publisher Copyright Licence Message-ID: <20170918171037.0000372e.rmahoney@fastmail.com> Dear Colleagues, Following on from the recent discussion on publishers agreements ... My solicitors and patent attorneys have recently finished reviewing the IeB author-publisher Copyright Licence. We've been trying to make it reasonable, balanced and fair. Clause 2.8.1 allows for the distribution of an Open Access PDF. Other clauses that may be of interest cover the Author's Copyright (Background, 3, 12 & 13), Royalties (8 & 9), Format and Publishing Decisions &c. (19 & 20), and the Reversion of Rights (25). Each author will have different needs so I would also like each licence to be negotiated project by project. http://indica-et-buddhica.org/indica-et-buddhica-draft-copyright-licence.pdf I would welcome comments so please feel free to mail me off-list. With best regards, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | INDICA ET BUDDHICA Littledene Bay Road Oxford New Zealand T: +64-3-312-1699 | www.indica-et-buddhica.org From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Sep 18 07:12:31 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 17 09:12:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <23275192-4307-404c-a5cf-9ee9fa842368@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Here attached, for the non specialists of the topic, a copy of Rudolf Hoernle's (1882) 1883 report and 1888 article issued in the Indian Antiquary, really interesting to read (like the rest of this discussion). Best wishes, Christophe Vielle Le 16 sept. 2017 ? 01:39, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > Dear Prof. Slaje, > > Many thanks for your reply to my message on the radiocarbon dating of the Bakhshali manuscript, I was hoping to read your comments and opinions on the results. I feel that I have to clarify some points and I hope that this reply will help you at least a little bit to dissipate some of your legitimate doubts. I also hope that you will forgive me if I might sound a bit on the defensive, but I have spent the last months doubting myself the results of the radiocarbon dating, only to have to slowly revise my opinions and be more open to possibilities. > > I have greatly profited from your wonderful 1993 book on the ??rad? script when I was still a PhD student working on Kashmirian manuscripts, then when I was I cataloguing the ??rad? manuscripts in the Cambridge collections, and more recently when I was completing a survey of the birch-bark manuscripts in the Bodleian collections to assess their conditions (I was surprised to find five uncatalogued birch-bark manuscripts belonging to what I call the Leitner collection, which are actually mentioned in the introduction of the catalogue by Winternitz and Keith, but that had escaped my attention so far; anyway, this is yet another story). I am fully aware that I am a beginner in the field of the paleography of the ??rad? script. Moreover, I know very well that I am certainly not the most qualified scholar who could assess the implications of these results for the palaeography of North Indian scripts, and certainly not at all for the history of Indian mathematics. Nevertheless, I have been asked to assist during the whole project of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript in my role as the curator of the Sanskrit manuscripts in the Bodleian Libraries. I have tried to do my best and to do my homework properly, so to say, if you allow me this rather prosaic simile with the job of school students. I have taken care of all Indological aspects and implications of this project very closely since its outset. In our team we are all well aware of Takao Hayashi's work on the Bakhshali, in fact we have been in contact with him and Agathe Keller before the start of the project, and the only reason why we haven't communicated the results to them in advance and before the press release is because of decisions coming from higher above us in the food chain (if you allow me again a prosaic metaphor). In fact, I have read and used Hayashi's 1995 edition very intensively in the last few months, alongside Kaye's first edition, Hoernle's article, and several other articles and books on the topic of zero and the history of mathematics in India (many thanks to Kim Plofker, without her wonderful contributions to the history of Indian mathematics I would have been lost), as well as Lore Sander's palaeographical studies, your own 1993 book, and several other publications on the palaeography of Indian scripts (obviously starting with the one by our great forefather Georg Buehler). The reason why Hayashi is not mentioned in the Guardian article?nor is any of us from the team, by the way, except for Prof. du Sautoy?is that this is an article in a newspaper and hence written for the broader public. As one of my Bodleian colleagues pointed out to me today when I wrote to him that I was disappointed that none of us from the team was even mentioned in the Guardian article (above all because two of us are EU citizens, and I believe I don't need to say more): we cannot control what the press chooses to do and publish. The Guardian was allowed the exclusive on this news (together with the BBC) and provided with the names of all members of the team that I mentioned in my first message. They chose to interview and quote only Prof. du Sautoy and the Bodley's Librarian Richard Ovenden, who both have a high profile and an own Wikipedia page. If this is what Bodleian Communications thinks it's better to do to have a wider impact on the broader public, well I can't certainly influence their decision. I surely agree with you that it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to interview Takao Hayashi and ask him his opinion, but we all know how these things go, don't we? > > Finally, I am well aware of the existence of INDOSKRIPT and I have used this wonderful tool before, but I am sorry to say that at the moment I do not fully agree with the statement "The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and [...] compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently [italics mine] by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT." The reason why I do not agree is merely a technical one. I used to consult INDOSKRIPT regularly when I was running a PC with Windows XP. When I switched to Linux/Ubuntu I then installed a pirate copy of Windows XP on a Virtual Machine only to be able to use INDOSKRIPT (this was back in 2007). Soon it turned out to be too taxing for the RAM of my computer and also it was pretty cumbersome to switch from Ubuntu, on which I was running Emacs for my work, to the VM to consult the INDOSKRIPT database. When in 2011 in Cambridge I was given as project laptop a MacPro, again I tried to install INDOSKRIPT, this time using the Wine emulator program. Much to my dismay, this time INDOSKRIPT didn't start at all. I did not want to install again a VM and install on it a Windows system, because I did not have access to any pirate copy of Windows XP (probably I could have easily downloaded one, I know) and I did not want to buy Windows only to run INDOSKRIPT. I have just followed the link to the INDOSKRIPT webpage that you provide and I cannot find any further implementation of the INDOSKRIPT database to run it on a Linux or Mac OS X system. If I am missing it, I kindly ask you to point me to it, as I certainly do not want to reinvent the wheel and if I can easily install this wonderful database on my Mac OS X or my Lubuntu machine to comfortably compare the ak?aras of the Bakhshali manuscript, I will do it for sure, instead of slaving to extract and modify ak?aras from the pictures of the Bakhshali I have or from images of manuscripts I have downloaded from the IDP website. > > (As a side note, I actually prefer to use the facsimile in Kaye's edition, since we are not allowed to photograph the Bakhshali anymore due to its poor condition and I have been told that when Hayashi asked permission to use in his own edition the reproductions used for Kaye's edition, it turned out that the original takes got lost, so the facsimile in Hayashi's edition is based on photographs of the printed version of Kaye's facsimile.) > > Best wishes, > > Camillo Formigatti > > From: Walter Slaje [slaje at kabelmail.de] > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 8:01 AM > To: Andrea Acri > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) > > I fully concur with what Dr Acri has to say in this matter. Moreover, the initial statement of the interviewed mathematician ?The most exciting thing is that we?ve identified a zero? is presumptuous, as the ?identification? claimed > here is actually decade-long common Indological knowledge easily traceable in the relevant literature on the subject. I wonder why no Indologist with a profound disciplinary knowledge was asked to give qualified statements. > > > A reproduction together with a transliteration of this famous manuscript was brought to the public in 1995: > Takao Hayashi, The Bakshali Manuscript. Groningen 1995. > > > The individual ak?aras of the Baksh?li MS can be consulted in their extracted forms and, in the possible attempt of a fresh dating, compared to their paleographic environment most conveniently by using the tools of INDOSKRIPT > (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/falk/): > > > > > > > > Best regards, > WS > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > > 2017-09-15 2:41 GMT+02:00 Andrea Acri via INDOLOGY : > Dear Camillo > > thank you for sharing this news, and especially for your (in)valuable work on this most important document. Let me point out at the very outset that all I know about this manuscript derives from the Guardian article and Wikipedia (disclaimer: I have no access to a library right now!), so please forgive me for being so naive. > > If the manuscript (however fragmentary it may be) is thought to contain a single, unitary text, then the date of its copying (and/or composition?) must be the 9th-10th century. I fail to see what is so sensational about this apart from the fact that it shows how writing supports that were centuries older might have been (re)utilized. (By the way: is an analysis of the ink technically possible?). The earliest attestation of the written zero would still be the 8th-century Southeast Asian inscriptions (and not the Gwalior temple, as incorrectly reported in the article). > > But in your message, when you speak about different stratas and tables of ak.saras, you clearly imply that this/these manuscript(s) contain(s) a composite/heterogeneous text indeed, and that part of it might date back to the 3rd-4th century. May I ask you to anticipate/synthesize some of your key findings here, or at least clarify this point? And, what is the relationship between folios 16 and 17? Do all these folios contain the 0? > > Further: I'm not steeped in mathematics either, so I fail to grasp the full implications of this statement (especially the second sentence): > > "In the fragile document, zero does not yet feature as a number in its own right, but as a placeholder in a number system, just as the ?0? in ?101? indicates no tens. It features a problem to which the answer is zero, but here the answer is left blank". > > Hopefully some of our learned colleagues will be able to clarify this point. > > Best regards > Andrea Acri > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 14 Sep 2017, at 17:15, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I?m pleased to be finally able to share this exciting news with you: >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/14/much-ado-about-nothing-ancient-indian-text-contains-earliest-zero-symbol >> >> I imagine that some of you might probably raise their eyebrows after reading this article. The results came as a big surprise to us too, and to me were literally jaw-dropping. I realize that these results have several implications not only >> for the history of mathematics, but also for our field of study, and I know that the article in The Guardian surely doesn?t answer the many questions you might be asking yourselves now. I will try to briefly anticipate some of them. >> >> The decision and implementation of radiocarbon dating the Bakhshali manuscript took several months of preparation on the part of the team of colleagues with which I collaborated. The team included colleagues from the Bodleian Libraries >> and other University of Oxford departments: David Howell (Bodleian Libraries? Head of Heritage Science), Dr Gillian Evison (Head of the Bodleian Libraries' Oriental Section & Indian Institute Librarian), Virginia M Llad?-Buis?n (Bodleian Libraries? Head of >> Conservation and Collection Care), Dr David Chivall (Chemistry Laboratory Manager at the School of Archaeology of the University of Oxford), and Prof. Marcus du Sautoy (Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and Professor of Mathematics >> at the Oxford University). We decided to take samples from three folios in order to be sure to have a sensible margin of certainty for the results. I chose folios 16, 17, and 33, and the analysis was conducted by Dr Chivall at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator >> Unit. The results of the calibrated age (95.4% confidence interval / cal AD) are as follows: >> >> Folio 16: 224 (95.4%) 383calAD >> Folio 17: 680 (74.8%) 779calAD >> 790 (20.6%) 868calAD >> Folio 33: 885 (95.4%) 993calAD >> >> We did not expect such a big difference in the date range of the three folios. I am currently preparing an article in which I provide the background for the choice of these three specific folios, tables of all ak?aras from the three folios >> as an aid to assign the extant folios to the different strata of the manuscript (including selected aksaras of other dated and undated manuscripts in similar scripts for comparison), and a first palaeographical appraisal of the results. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Camillo >> >> >> Dr Camillo A. Formigatti >> John Clay Sanskrit Librarian >> >> Bodleian Libraries >> The Weston Library >> Broad Street, Oxford >> OX1 3BG >> >> Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 >> >> www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk >> >> GROW YOUR MIND >> in Oxford University?s >> Gardens, Libraries and Museums >> www.mindgrowing.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hoernle_BakshaliMS_IA1883_1888.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1170535 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Sep 18 07:57:16 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 17 09:57:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Postdoctoral fellowship in Missionary Linguistics Message-ID: Dear List, on behalf of my colleagues from the University of Louvain - Leuven (especially Toon Van Hal, with whom I currently work on J.E. Hanxleden's Sanskrit and Malayalam works), I attach here the description of a postdoctoral fellowship offered within their "Missionary Linguistics" joint-project: ?Evolving views on the world's languages in a globalizing world (1540-1840): information growth, conceptual shifts, scholarly networks in the circulation of linguistic knowledge?. Research projects on the first Western descriptions of Indian languages (Sanskrit or vernacular) will be of course considered. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Mon Sep 18 09:46:08 2017 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 17 09:46:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1505718860.S.1647958.18939.f4-234-193.1505727968.4382@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Christophe Vielle, Origin of ZERO is ,indeed an enriching subject to focus on. I have been curiously following the discussion ,too. However, how about the fact that inhabitants of MAYA civilisation in Central & South America used Zero as far back as 1000.B.C? Does it pre date Bakshali Manuscript ? ALAKENDU DAS. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Sep 18 11:38:54 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 17 13:38:54 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Postdoctoral fellowship in Missionary Linguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <973E6191-778E-40E1-859E-8F47770C7D1C@uclouvain.be> Sorry, the document in docx has been lost. Here is the pdf form (which can circulate), and the copy of the text below. Vacancy: Postdoctoral fellowship in Missionary Linguistics Starting from January 2018, one postdoctoral fellowship (min. 2000? per month) will be available at the Center for the Historiography of Linguistics at University of Leuven for up to two years. The successful candidate will be a team member in the ongoing research project ?Evolving views on the world's languages in a globalizing world (1540-1840): information growth, conceptual shifts, scholarly networks in the circulation of linguistic knowledge?, funded by the KU Leuven Research Council (2015-2019), and supervised by Toon Van Hal, Pierre Swiggers, Werner Thomas & Lieve Behiels (KU Leuven). The project aims at offering a comprehensive linguistic-historiographical and cultural-historical analysis of the context, the contents, and the impact of the study of exotic languages as an integrative component of the development of linguistic thinking and practice in Western Europe. It investigates the following questions: (1) How did the circuits of information on languages in the Americas and Asia function? (2) What are the recurrent models of language description? (3) What was the empirical and theoretical impact of Early Modern Language descriptions? The postdoctoral will conduct a research project that fits in with the general aims of the project. She/he will also be involved in the finalization of an ongoing database project, international joint applications and in the organization of an international conference that will be organized in 2019. Applicants are requested to submit, before the 20th of October, (a) a curriculum vitae (b) an electronic version of the PhD-dissertation and up to three relevant articles (c) a short project proposal (of ca. 1500 words) that fits in with the general aims of the project. Information on the project can be found on c-h-l.be/news For more information, please contact toon.vanhal at kuleuven.be (history of linguistics) pierre.swiggers at kuleuven.be (history of linguistics) werner.thomas at kuleuven.be (early modern history) lieve.behiels at kuleuven.be (historical translation studies) Le 18 sept. 2017 ? 09:57, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > Dear List, > on behalf of my colleagues from the University of Louvain - Leuven (especially Toon Van Hal, with whom I currently work on J.E. Hanxleden's Sanskrit and Malayalam works), I attach here the description of a postdoctoral fellowship offered within their "Missionary Linguistics" joint-project: ?Evolving views on the world's languages in a globalizing world (1540-1840): information growth, conceptual shifts, scholarly networks in the circulation of linguistic knowledge?. Research projects on the first Western descriptions of Indian languages (Sanskrit or vernacular) will be of course considered. > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > > > ??????????????????? > > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VacancyPOSTDOCMissionaryLinguistics2017.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 72849 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in Mon Sep 18 16:55:04 2017 From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 17 22:25:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] AAS-in-Asia, July 2018, hosted by Ashoka University Message-ID: Dear All The next Association for Asian Studies conference in Asia (AAS-in-Asia) will be hosted by Ashoka University in Delhi: http://www.aas-in-asia2018.com/ The conference dates are: July 5th?8th, 2018. Please see the call for proposals here: http://www.asian-studies.org/Conferences/AAS-in-Asia-Conferences/India-2018-Home-Page/Call-for-Proposals Note that only panel and roundtable proposals will be accepted, not individual paper proposals. I hope to welcome many of you to Ashoka next year. Facebook Page - https://www.facebook.com/aasinasia/ Facebook Event - https://www.facebook.com/events/121272145199568/ Twitter Page - https://twitter.com/aasinasia Yours Alex -- Alex Watson Professor of Indian Philosophy Ashoka University *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 19 10:01:31 2017 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 17 10:01:31 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1505731480.S.10700.21528.f4-234-196.1505815291.28411@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Freschi, Thanks for your response. I would mention a link here ,which may be useful to you. www.historymuseum.ca/cma/exhibitions/civil/maya/mmc05eng.shtml.( Ref-Canadian Museum of History) I would also mention a line from the link,which goes as follows- 'That the Maya understood the value of zero is remarkable -most of world's civilisations had no concept of zero at that time' The moot point is that the Mayans may not be using zero as a place-value ,as efficiently as the Bakshali mms did, but ,if the issue is that of ORIGIN OF ZERO ,then, would be out of place to grant the Mayans this honour? ALAKENDU DAS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdj at austin.utexas.edu Tue Sep 19 17:48:54 2017 From: drdj at austin.utexas.edu (Donald R Davis) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 17 17:48:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tenure-track position in Hindi, University of Texas at Austin Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am pleased to share the following advertisement for an assistant professor of Hindi at the University of Texas at Austin. Please forward this link to qualified candidates for the position. https://apply.interfolio.com/43849 Best, Don Davis Dept. of Asian Studies University of Texas at Austin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 00:22:14 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 09:52:14 +0930 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari Message-ID: Hello, Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic literature. Thank you. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 03:11:21 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 08:41:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn of the Veda? The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different contexts. On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Hello, > > Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first > mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic > literature. > > Thank you. > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > Modern Yoga Research > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 03:32:15 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 13:02:15 +0930 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nagaraj, I mean: is Dhanvantari mentioned 'in the Vedas or mentioned in Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn of the Veda'. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in > Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn > of the Veda? > > The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different > contexts. > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >> literature. >> >> Thank you. >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 <0414%20954%20748> >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> Modern Yoga Research >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 03:42:02 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 09:12:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Encyclopaedia of Indian Medicine: Historical perspective By Saligrama Krishna Ramachandra Rao available here to read has an entry on Dhanvantari at pages 52-54. As per this, Dhanvantari is not directly mentioned in the Vedas. The earliest mention is in Mahabharata Adi 1140. Sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. I said in an earlier post on a similar topic, "The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta." The references provided in the pages 52-54 of this book establish that Dhanvantari is Vedic as per the perspective mentioned above in my words. On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in > Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn > of the Veda? > > The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different > contexts. > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >> literature. >> >> Thank you. >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> Modern Yoga Research >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Dhanvantari-2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 179797 bytes Desc: not available URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 04:12:51 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 13:42:51 +0930 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Nagaraj. I really appreciate it. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Encyclopaedia of Indian Medicine: Historical perspective > > By Saligrama Krishna Ramachandra Rao > > available here > to > read > > has an entry on Dhanvantari at pages 52-54. > > As per this, Dhanvantari is not directly mentioned in the Vedas. The > earliest mention is in Mahabharata Adi 1140. > > Sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. > > I said in an earlier post on a similar topic, > > "The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The > word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the > cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) > part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, > Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > " > > The references provided in the pages 52-54 of this book establish that > Dhanvantari is Vedic as per the perspective mentioned above in my words. > > > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in >> Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn >> of the Veda? >> >> The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different >> contexts. >> >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >>> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >>> literature. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>> Fellow >>> School of Culture, History & Language >>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>> The Australian National University >>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>> >>> >>> Skype - psdmccartney >>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 <0414%20954%20748> >>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>> >>> >>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >>> >>> academia >>> >>> - >>> >>> Linkedin >>> >>> >>> Edanz >>> >>> >>> Modern Yoga Research >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 04:15:02 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 09:45:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In tradition there is a practice of sacrificing for Dhanvantari with this below Mantra and even Viniyoga says it's devatA is Dhanvantari Please see the attachment ???? ??? ?????? ????????? ??? ????????? ? ???? ??? ???????????????? ?????????????? ? ??.??.?? ? On 20-Sep-2017 9:13 AM, "Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY" < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Encyclopaedia of Indian Medicine: Historical perspective > > By Saligrama Krishna Ramachandra Rao > > available here > to > read > > has an entry on Dhanvantari at pages 52-54. > > As per this, Dhanvantari is not directly mentioned in the Vedas. The > earliest mention is in Mahabharata Adi 1140. > > Sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. > > I said in an earlier post on a similar topic, > > "The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The > word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the > cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) > part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, > Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > " > > The references provided in the pages 52-54 of this book establish that > Dhanvantari is Vedic as per the perspective mentioned above in my words. > > > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in >> Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn >> of the Veda? >> >> The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different >> contexts. >> >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >>> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >>> literature. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>> Fellow >>> School of Culture, History & Language >>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>> The Australian National University >>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>> >>> >>> Skype - psdmccartney >>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>> >>> >>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >>> >>> academia >>> >>> - >>> >>> Linkedin >>> >>> >>> Edanz >>> >>> >>> Modern Yoga Research >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_2017-09-20-09-40-34-775.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 120010 bytes Desc: not available URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 20 04:31:29 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 04:31:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <1505731480.S.10700.21528.f4-234-196.1505815291.28411@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523BCF40B@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Alakendu (if I may), Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. May I point you to my reply to Andrea Acri's questions? The Mayans or even the Babylonians before the Mayans already used a symbol as placeholder in a positional system, but as far as I know, they did not use it as a zero in its own rights, if I'm not mistaken. On the other hand, this is precisely what the Bakhshali manuscript content hints at. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: alakendu das [mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:01 AM To: elisa.freschi at gmail.com Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Dr.Freschi, Thanks for your response. I would mention a link here ,which may be useful to you. www.historymuseum.ca/cma/exhibitions/civil/maya/mmc05eng.shtml.( Ref-Canadian Museum of History) I would also mention a line from the link,which goes as follows- 'That the Maya understood the value of zero is remarkable -most of world's civilisations had no concept of zero at that time' The moot point is that the Mayans may not be using zero as a place-value ,as efficiently as the Bakshali mms did, but ,if the issue is that of ORIGIN OF ZERO ,then, would be out of place to grant the Mayans this honour? ALAKENDU DAS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 04:36:59 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 14:06:59 +0930 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nagaraj, I understand your point precisely about vaidika = veda-aviruddha;-anuroopa; -anusaari, etc. However, there seem to be many things, particularly within *Yogaland* that are signified as 'Vedic' with either or both meanings (ie both vedas'ruta & veda-anuroopa) - However, this fine distinction is not generally made by promoters of particular products within yogaland, and many things are simply conflated to 'vedic' meaning 'it's really old and happened a long time ago, and therefore it's really pure and amaaazing'. In fact, this point is capitalised and exploited, as you well know. For instance, there is a type of 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to be 5000 years old, and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and which explicitly states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god. Yet, as far as I was aware, and which Dagmar confirmed in another email, the Ashvins are the Vedic gods related to healing, and any mention of Dhanvantari does not appear until the current era. However, this 5000 yo date asserts an untenable date for the accepted range of the vedic period, itself; and suggests that there is an unbroken lineage of Thai Yoga massage that occurred even before the vedic period. However, there are many people within yogaland who do not have any appreciation for historicity, and would prefer for a sense of magic and wonder to reenchant their lives. Organisational game theory explains that people would rather believe a falsity *if* it is going to help them feel better. In fact, I have been told that I simply do not know what I'm a talking about. While you might not consider these types of enquires 'serious' scholarship, they are important in the study of the global consumption of yoga-inflected lifestyles within the multi-trillion dollar wellness industry, which includes the construction of narratives to also suit socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH and MEA. Conveniently, this is what my current research project is about. Thanks again for your help. And to Krishnaprasad for the mantra. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Encyclopaedia of Indian Medicine: Historical perspective > > By Saligrama Krishna Ramachandra Rao > > available here > to > read > > has an entry on Dhanvantari at pages 52-54. > > As per this, Dhanvantari is not directly mentioned in the Vedas. The > earliest mention is in Mahabharata Adi 1140. > > Sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. > > I said in an earlier post on a similar topic, > > "The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The > word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the > cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) > part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, > Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > " > > The references provided in the pages 52-54 of this book establish that > Dhanvantari is Vedic as per the perspective mentioned above in my words. > > > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in >> Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn >> of the Veda? >> >> The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different >> contexts. >> >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >>> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >>> literature. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>> Fellow >>> School of Culture, History & Language >>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>> The Australian National University >>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>> >>> >>> Skype - psdmccartney >>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 <0414%20954%20748> >>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>> >>> >>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >>> >>> academia >>> >>> - >>> >>> Linkedin >>> >>> >>> Edanz >>> >>> >>> Modern Yoga Research >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 05:35:15 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 11:05:15 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Krishnaprasad-ji. Though the mantra does not have the word Dhanvantari, the traditional prologue to it establishes that it has been being taken as referring to Dhanvantari by tradition insiders. On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Krishnaprasad G < krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote: > In tradition there is a practice of sacrificing for Dhanvantari with this > below Mantra and even Viniyoga says it's devatA is Dhanvantari > Please see the attachment > > ???? ??? ?????? ????????? ??? ????????? ? > ???? ??? ???????????????? ?????????????? ? ??.??.?? ? > > On 20-Sep-2017 9:13 AM, "Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY" < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Encyclopaedia of Indian Medicine: Historical perspective >> >> By Saligrama Krishna Ramachandra Rao >> >> available here >> to >> read >> >> has an entry on Dhanvantari at pages 52-54. >> >> As per this, Dhanvantari is not directly mentioned in the Vedas. The >> earliest mention is in Mahabharata Adi 1140. >> >> Sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. >> >> I said in an earlier post on a similar topic, >> >> "The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The >> word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the >> cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) >> part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, >> Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. >> " >> >> The references provided in the pages 52-54 of this book establish that >> Dhanvantari is Vedic as per the perspective mentioned above in my words. >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >>> Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in >>> Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn >>> of the Veda? >>> >>> The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different >>> contexts. >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >>>> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >>>> literature. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>>> Fellow >>>> School of Culture, History & Language >>>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>>> The Australian National University >>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>>> >>>> >>>> Skype - psdmccartney >>>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>>> >>>> >>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >>>> >>>> academia >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Linkedin >>>> >>>> >>>> Edanz >>>> >>>> >>>> Modern Yoga Research >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >> >> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it Wed Sep 20 08:35:34 2017 From: davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it (David Pierdominici) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 10:35:34 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Message-ID: <22744182-2E85-47E1-A132-58635C8B4D4C@uniroma1.it> Dear list members, a colleague of mine (not present in the mailing list) is looking for a digital copy of S?hityakut?hala by Rajaraja Varma, but she is facing some difficulties in recovering it. Does anyone have it by chance? Thanking you in advance, regards David Pierdominici PhD candidate Sapienza Universit? di Roma From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Sep 20 09:58:28 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 17 11:58:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request In-Reply-To: <22744182-2E85-47E1-A132-58635C8B4D4C@uniroma1.it> Message-ID: <106B2EEB-DE8C-4BC3-BDE8-B920BDB79E1B@uclouvain.be> The kind of book to find (and try to copy) in a good library of Kerala. Only one edition for this collection of (14) short Sanskrit pieces by A.R. Rajaraja Varma (Trivandrum: [Samskrta] Bhaskara Press, 1904, 77 pp. ) as confirmed by K.H. Subramanian, Kerala Panini and Sanskrit works, New Delhi: New Bharatiya Book Corporation, 2008, pp. 34-45, who details the contents (noteworthy is the Udd?la Caritam, a prose rendering of Shakespeare's Othello, and the one-act play Gairv???vijaya, dealing with the eagerness on the part of English to subjugate Sanskrit-Gairv???, and the final triumph of the latter ? a bit about these two works, which were previously published separately [1898 and 1889 respectively], is also to be found in K.M. George's booklet, in the 'Makers of Indian Literature' series, A. R. Rajaraja Varma, New Delhi: Sahitya Akademi, 1979, pp. 48-50, without references). Le 20 sept. 2017 ? 10:35, David Pierdominici via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > Dear list members, > > a colleague of mine (not present in the mailing list) is looking for a digital copy of S?hityakut?hala by Rajaraja Varma, but she is facing some difficulties in recovering it. Does anyone have it by chance? > Thanking you in advance, regards > > David Pierdominici > PhD candidate > Sapienza Universit? di Roma > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 04:31:14 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 17 10:01:14 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick-ji, I could not get back to you earlier than this as I had to go for my teaching work. 'within the multi-trillion dollar wellness industry', what is the ratio of the 'the global consumption of yoga-inflected lifestyles' ? Is your current research project focused, among other things, on the 'socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH and MEA' ? Why are you interested in those aspirations? What is so intriguing about a state having such aspirations? Do you think 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to be 5000 years old, and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and which explicitly states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god' is part of 'the construction of narratives to also suit socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH and MEA' ? Are you feeling bad that ' there are many people within yogaland who do not have any appreciation for historicity, and would prefer for a sense of magic and wonder to reenchant their lives.'? In a recent mail, you said, " , my remit is to suspend judgement and disbelief, and *try* to privilege the emic perspective." I said, "Do you think Indology centred around /rooted in historical critical method and privileging emic perspectives that are neither historical nor critical can go hand in hand? " Here is a sample of that mismatch. ----------------------------------------- Who are the target market of this Vedic Thai Yoga massage ? Why or how do they have a respect or attraction for the label 'Vedic' ? Indians, particularly Hindus, more particularly traditionally oriented educated Hindus may have a pull for the 'Vedic' label. Why at all does that label matter for any customers other than of that category? Why does that label create magic and wonder? On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Thanks, Krishnaprasad-ji. > > Though the mantra does not have the word Dhanvantari, the traditional > prologue to it establishes that it has been being taken as referring to > Dhanvantari by tradition insiders. > > > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Krishnaprasad G < > krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com> wrote: > >> In tradition there is a practice of sacrificing for Dhanvantari with this >> below Mantra and even Viniyoga says it's devatA is Dhanvantari >> Please see the attachment >> >> ???? ??? ?????? ????????? ??? ????????? ? >> ???? ??? ???????????????? ?????????????? ? ??.??.?? ? >> >> On 20-Sep-2017 9:13 AM, "Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY" < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Encyclopaedia of Indian Medicine: Historical perspective >>> >>> By Saligrama Krishna Ramachandra Rao >>> >>> available here >>> to >>> read >>> >>> has an entry on Dhanvantari at pages 52-54. >>> >>> As per this, Dhanvantari is not directly mentioned in the Vedas. The >>> earliest mention is in Mahabharata Adi 1140. >>> >>> Sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. >>> >>> I said in an earlier post on a similar topic, >>> >>> "The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. >>> The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of >>> the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) >>> part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, >>> Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. >>> " >>> >>> The references provided in the pages 52-54 of this book establish that >>> Dhanvantari is Vedic as per the perspective mentioned above in my words. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Do you mean, is Dhanvantari mentioned in the Vedas or mentioned in >>>> Sanskrit literature that was composed later to the date of the latest hymn >>>> of the Veda? >>>> >>>> The word 'Vedic' literature can mean different things in different >>>> contexts. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:52 AM, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> Could someone please enlighten me as to when Dhanvantari is first >>>>> mentioned, specifically whether this is within vedic or post-vedic >>>>> literature. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> >>>>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>>>> Fellow >>>>> School of Culture, History & Language >>>>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>>>> The Australian National University >>>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Skype - psdmccartney >>>>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >>>>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >>>>> >>>>> academia >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Linkedin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Edanz >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Modern Yoga Research >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> >>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>>> >>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> >>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra >>> >>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 13:09:21 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 17 18:39:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kadambari Commentary jivananda Vidasagara PDF req In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all I am searching for the Commentary of Jivananda Vidyasagara on Kadambari of Bana Bhatta. From long time With lot of search having no succes. If anyone is having or can get access to your near by libraries would scan will be a great favor for me. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From opfallon at yahoo.com Thu Sep 21 14:12:11 2017 From: opfallon at yahoo.com (Oliver Fallon) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 17 14:12:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kadambari Commentary jivananda Vidasagara PDF req In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1167028795.11303070.1506003131490@mail.yahoo.com> I would also like a copy if you find it. On Thursday, 21 September 2017, 14:10:20 BST, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear allI am searching for the Commentary of Jivananda Vidyasagara on Kadambari of Bana Bhatta. From long time With lot of search having no succes. If anyone is having or can get access to your near by libraries would scan will be a great favor for me.?Thanks_______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 14:59:36 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 17 20:29:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kadambari Commentary jivananda Vidasagara PDF req In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have got a link here which is from Ohio US Library. If any one confirms this edition has the commentary I would initiate a request for scan. Thanks https://search.clevnet.org/client/en_US/clevnet/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fSD_ILS$002f0$002fSD_ILS:1096498/one On 21-Sep-2017 6:39 PM, "Krishnaprasad G" wrote: > Dear all > I am searching for the Commentary of Jivananda Vidyasagara on Kadambari of > Bana Bhatta. From long time With lot of search having no succes. > > If anyone is having or can get access to your near by libraries would scan > will be a great favor for me. > Thanks > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 22:29:24 2017 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 17 18:29:24 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On the Book: "On Meaning an Mantras: Essays in Honor of Frits Staal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, Richard Payne has just informed me that the book "On Meaning and Mantras: Essays in Honor of Frits Staal" in now listed on the UPH website, and is now orderable there: http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-9898-9781886439641.aspx Best wishes, George Thompson On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > For all of you who have informed me that the Staal Memorial volume is > still not available on the UPH website, please take a deep breath, and let > the press have some time to do what it has promised to do. Richard Payne > and I know that there is a warehouse in Hawaii that has stacks of the > book. I don't know what is wrong with UPH, but we have distributed two > copies of the book to all of the contributors to it, and we have also sent > gratis copies to Frits' family members. > > My understanding is that the book well be on sale at US$ 45.00. It > includes 32 articles and amounts to 642 pages. This seems to me to a very > reasonable price, for a lot of good scholarship. I am just as annoyed as > everybody about this delay in the publication of this book, upon which I > have worked for years. > > But I have a couple of copies of the book in hand here. When you see this > book, I think that you will like it. > > Richard has done an excellent job of producing this book. > > Sincerely, > > George Thompson > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:41 PM, George Thompson > wrote: > >> Dear List, >> >> Thanks to Christophe Vielle, it has come to our attention that our book >> in honor of Frits Staal, published by the Institute of Buddhist Studies >> last year, has been difficult [or maybe impossible] to order online because >> of problems with the website of the University Press of Hawaii, which >> distributes it. Christophe has informed us that this press has no record >> whatsoever of our book dedicated to Frits on their website. This is a >> shocking and dismaying thing. Richard and I have worked very hard to >> publish this book. To learn now that the books are sitting in a warehouse >> somewhere and that there is no means to order a copy is very frustrating >> for us, who have labored so long on it. >> >> In any case, Richard has assured me that this error has now been >> corrected, and that ordering this book from the press should now be easy. >> >> I edited this volume as an homage to a great Vedicist and a dear friend. >> It is very disappointing to have learned about this delay in the book's >> distribution. >> >> With best wishes to all, and with apologies for this delay, >> >> George Thompson >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Sep 21 23:59:00 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 17 17:59:00 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nowadays, whenever I see "5000" asserted as a date, whether before present or BCE, I now treat it as a purely symbolic gesture to antiquity rather than a date that a professional historian would attend to. Best, Dominik On 19 September 2017 at 22:36, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Nagaraj, > ?[...]? > > For instance, there is a type of 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to > be 5000 years old, and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and > which explicitly states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god. Yet, as far as I > was aware, and which Dagmar confirmed in another email, the Ashvins are the > Vedic gods related to healing, and any mention of Dhanvantari does not > appear until the current era. However, this 5000 yo date asserts an > untenable date for the > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 03:50:03 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 17 09:20:03 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fair enough. Such intercultural translation of the one's correspondent's 'emic' into one's own 'emic' ( which could be viewed as 'etic' depending on where one is coming from), is fair enough. Understanding things through such translation is part of everyday experience not only of an Anthropologist whose jobs it is to understand things that way, but is part of any prudent and healthy interpersonal interaction. It is professional for an Anthropologist to understand things that way as much as it is professional for a historian to arrive at the accurate dates etc. Claims, among common people particularly as part of their belief in legends, of greater antiquity to things than a historical critical scrutiny can approve of, are widespread across different parts of the world , not limited to Indian society. Claims of antiquity and their diametrically opposite claims of 'state of the art' both, used across the globe in marketing , may not always stand the scrutiny for factuality. Whichever of these two claims suits the product is used by the marketing people. The same marketing agency may use both the claims for different products. Hence a certain marketing agency can not be characterised as atiquity-claiming or sate - of - the- art-claiming. History is part of a larger logical positivist paradigm. Claims of 'scientific' by people working for religion and religious things not standing the scrutiny of science is widespread across the globe across religions. Historical claims about things religious not standing the scrutiny of historical critical studies is part of the same situation. On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 5:29 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Nowadays, whenever I see "5000" asserted as a date, whether before present > or BCE, I now treat it as a purely symbolic gesture to antiquity rather > than a date that a professional historian would attend to. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > On 19 September 2017 at 22:36, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Nagaraj, >> ?[...]? >> >> For instance, there is a type of 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to >> be 5000 years old, and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and >> which explicitly states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god. Yet, as far as I >> was aware, and which Dagmar confirmed in another email, the Ashvins are the >> Vedic gods related to healing, and any mention of Dhanvantari does not >> appear until the current era. However, this 5000 yo date asserts an >> untenable date for the >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 05:43:32 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 17 11:13:32 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [image: Inline image 1] >From Urban Legends: Civic Identity and the Classical Past in Northern Italy, 1250 ...By Carrie E. Benes [image: Inline image 2] Page 13 of the same book. On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Fair enough. Such intercultural translation of the one's correspondent's > 'emic' into one's own 'emic' ( which could be viewed as 'etic' depending on > where one is coming from), is fair enough. > > Understanding things through such translation is part of everyday > experience not only of an Anthropologist whose jobs it is to understand > things that way, but is part of any prudent and healthy interpersonal > interaction. > > It is professional for an Anthropologist to understand things that way as > much as it is professional for a historian to arrive at the accurate dates > etc. > > Claims, among common people particularly as part of their belief in > legends, of greater antiquity to things than a historical critical scrutiny > can approve of, are widespread across different parts of the world , not > limited to Indian society. > > Claims of antiquity and their diametrically opposite claims of 'state of > the art' both, used across the globe in marketing , may not always stand > the scrutiny for factuality. Whichever of these two claims suits the > product is used by the marketing people. The same marketing agency may use > both the claims for different products. Hence a certain marketing agency > can not be characterised as atiquity-claiming or sate - of - the- > art-claiming. > > History is part of a larger logical positivist paradigm. Claims of > 'scientific' by people working for religion and religious things not > standing the scrutiny of science is widespread across the globe across > religions. Historical claims about things religious not standing the > scrutiny of historical critical studies is part of the same situation. > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 5:29 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Nowadays, whenever I see "5000" asserted as a date, whether before >> present or BCE, I now treat it as a purely symbolic gesture to antiquity >> rather than a date that a professional historian would attend to. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> >> On 19 September 2017 at 22:36, patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Nagaraj, >>> ?[...]? >>> >>> For instance, there is a type of 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims >>> to be 5000 years old, and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, >>> and which explicitly states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god. Yet, as far as >>> I was aware, and which Dagmar confirmed in another email, the Ashvins are >>> the Vedic gods related to healing, and any mention of Dhanvantari does not >>> appear until the current era. However, this 5000 yo date asserts an >>> untenable date for the >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Fri Sep 22 12:08:51 2017 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 17 12:08:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523BCF4FF@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1505920488.S.7144.11858.f4-234-222.1506082131.28367@webmail.rediffmail.com> Camillo, Sorry for replying late,but I took some time to have a deeper look into the history of the Babylonian concept of zero. I enclose a qoute from Mathemetician Robert Kaplan ...and leave the rest for you to decide. ALAKENDU DAS. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Fri Sep 22 12:15:07 2017 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 17 14:15:07 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <1505920488.S.7144.11858.f4-234-222.1506082131.28367@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Alakendu, > I enclose a qoute Where is the quote? Artur Karp 2017-09-22 14:08 GMT+02:00 alakendu das via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > > Camillo, > Sorry for replying late,but I took some time to have a deeper look into > the history of > the Babylonian concept of zero. > > I enclose a qoute from Mathemetician Robert Kaplan ...and > leave the rest for you to decide. > > ALAKENDU DAS. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 22 12:58:39 2017 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 17 12:58:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) In-Reply-To: <1505920488.S.7144.11858.f4-234-222.1506082131.28367@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <0C647B6E904DBB4BAD3A28D522DC731523BCF7C0@MBX05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Dear Alakendu, Thanks a lot for taking time to do some research on this topic! I paste below the quote you mention, since you sent it in a separate file: "The Sumerians' system passed through the Akkadian Empire to the Babylonians around 300 B.C. There, Kaplan agrees, a symbol appeared that was clearly a placeholder ? a way to tell 10 from 100 or to signify that in the number 2,025, there is no number in the hundreds column. Initially, the Babylonians left an empty space in their cuneiform number system, but when that became confusing, they added a symbol ? double angled wedges ? to represent the empty column. However, they never developed the idea of zero as a number. Zero in the Americas Six hundred years later and 12,000 miles from Babylon, the Mayans developed zero as a placeholder around A.D. 350 and used it to denote a placeholder in their elaborate calendar systems. Despite being highly skilled mathematicians, the Mayans never used zero in equations, however. Kaplan describes the Mayan invention of zero as the "most striking example of the zero being devised wholly from scratch."" If I'm allowed to be honest, I don't understand what I have to decide. It seems that you don't understand my point again, as the Babylonians already had a way to denote zero in a positional system in the 2nd millennium BC, and unsurprisingly they left a blank space between the digits?as Kaplan already says in the quote, but without mentioning any date. Then he simply says that in 300 BC the Babylonians developed a symbol, but this doesn't change the fact that the blank space was also a placeholder for zero. Moreover, the quote clearly states that "Six hundred years later and 12,000 miles from Babylon, the Mayans developed zero as a placeholder around A.D. 350 and used it to denote a placeholder in their elaborate calendar systems." So, there's nothing to decide, as far as I understand. It could also be that I'm missing something that you are implying and if this is the case, I apologize. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com [mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 1:08 PM To: Camillo Formigatti Cc: elisa.freschi at gmail.com; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Once again on the origin of zero: the date of the Bakhshali manuscript (or manuscripts?) Camillo, Sorry for replying late,but I took some time to have a deeper look into the history of the Babylonian concept of zero. I enclose a qoute from Mathemetician Robert Kaplan ...and leave the rest for you to decide. ALAKENDU DAS. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Sep 23 02:34:34 2017 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 17 20:34:34 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: when I said "symbolic" I didn't mean that "5000" is a necessarily a claim for great antiquity. Often it is, but sometimes things are older than "5000". I mean that "5000" is - strictly - not a number, but a feeling. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Sep 23 03:00:34 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 17 08:30:34 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I appreciate that. I admired that even. 'Understanding expressions such as 5000 as such symbolic expressions and not ridiculing the user of such expressions for historical inaccuracy, more, not attributing motives to such usages, is a healthy tendency' is what I said. On Sep 23, 2017 8:04 AM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: when I said "symbolic" I didn't mean that "5000" is a necessarily a claim for great antiquity. Often it is, but sometimes things are older than "5000". I mean that "5000" is - strictly - not a number, but a feeling. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sun Sep 24 14:34:05 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 17 14:34:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] an odd Sanskrit phrase Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C658B0@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear friends, One of my students is writing her thesis on a Tibetan tantric lineage that specialised on, among other things, the rituals devoted to a form of the bodhisattva Ma?ju?r? called gsang-ldan, literally "possessing secrets," i.e. "esoteric." At least one of the canonical texts cited, which however does not survive in Sanskrit, includes a Sanskrit title in which gsang-ldan is found as guhy?panna. Although some contemporary specialists of Buddhism have, on this basis, repeated the use of the phrase guhy?panna, it appears to me most likely to stem from a Tibetan back translation and not from an original Sanskrit source - - the use of ?panna in the meaning intended somehow doesn't seem right to me. I would appreciate any insights you might have on whether guhy?panna meaning "possessing secrets" is at all plausible. Please do not bother with citations of scholars who have used the phrase, referring to Tibetan but not actual Sanskrit sources. with thanks in advance, Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Sep 25 10:44:21 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 10:44:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65A7C@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear friends, As I read through Esther Solomon's dissertation, Avidy??A Problem of Truth and Reality, which was kindly made available to me in pdf by members of this list, I have wanted to learn more of Solomon herself, but have not so far found reference to a biography or even a necrology. What I have been able to learn, in essence, is that she was a member of the small Ahmedabadi Jewish community, for which she is a source of pride owing to her accomplishments as a Sanskrit scholar. But, besides elements of her bibliography, that's about all I've been able to come up with. Might any of you know of a source that provides a sketch of her life and career? She certainly merits a few paragraphs in the annals of twentieth-century Indology. thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Mon Sep 25 11:23:39 2017 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 14:23:39 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65A7C@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: Dear Matthew and others, this is what I have found: SOLOMON, Esther Abraham (Rajkot, Gujarat 11.5.1927 ? ) (Sanskrit, Religion, Philosophy) Daughter of Abraham Solomon and Yakhobeth. M.A. Ph.D. Bombay. In 1949-56 Lecturer in Sanskrit, 1956-58 Professor, 1958-64 Professor of Sanskrit and Ancient Indian Culture at B.J. Institute of Learning. In 1964-77 Reader and Head of Sanskrit Dept. at Gujarat University School of Languages in Ahmedabad. From 1977 Professor and Head of Sanskrit Dept. at School of Languages, Gujarat University. Unmarried. ? Avidy?: A problem of truth and reality. 27+572 p. Gujarat Univ., Theses Publ. Ser. 8. Ahmedabad 1969. ? Indian dialectics. 1-2. Ahmedabad 1976-78; The Commentaries of the S??khya K?rik?: A study. 12+216 p. Ahmedabad 1974; Ganadharav?da. 19??; Hindu Darsana. 19??. ? ed. S??khya-vrtti (V2). 9+111 p. Ahmedabad 1973; S??khya-Saptati-Vrtti (V2). 11+173 p. Ahmedabad 1973. ? tr. Siddh?nta?le?asa?graha. L.D. Ser. 114. Ahmedabad 1990. ? articles in Sambodhi. (India's Who's Who 1979-80, 136) Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > On 25 Sep 2017, at 13:44, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear friends, > > As I read through Esther Solomon's dissertation, Avidy??A Problem of Truth and Reality, > which was kindly made available to me in pdf by members of this list, I have wanted to learn > more of Solomon herself, but have not so far found reference to a biography or even a > necrology. What I have been able to learn, in essence, is that she was a member of the small > Ahmedabadi Jewish community, for which she is a source of pride owing to her accomplishments > as a Sanskrit scholar. But, besides elements of her bibliography, that's about all I've been able > to come up with. > > Might any of you know of a source that provides a sketch of her life and career? She certainly merits > a few paragraphs in the annals of twentieth-century Indology. > > thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon Sep 25 11:47:54 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 11:47:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65AB0@xm-mbx-06-prod> Many thanks, Klaus, it's a start! best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From John.Brockington at btinternet.com Mon Sep 25 11:49:50 2017 From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 12:49:50 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161e84a9-f1f5-3711-820c-198a976c8047@btinternet.com> Also, from the Jewish Women's Archive, on the Bene Israel (jwa.org): Other Bene Israel women who remained in India and made a mark can be mentioned only briefly. ? . . .? . . . Esther Solomon (b. 1927), also of Ahmedabad, a Sanskrit scholar and professor at Gujarat University, was awarded a Presidential Certificate of Honor in l983 for outstanding contributions to Sanskrit and a Padma Shri in l992. Best wishes John Professor J.L. Brockington 113 Rutten Lane Yarnton Kidlington 0X5 1LT tel: 01865 849438 On 25/09/2017 12:23, Klaus Karttunen via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Matthew and others, > this is what I have found: > > *SOLOMON, Esther A*braham(Rajkot, Gujarat 11.5.1927 ?? ) (Sanskrit, > Religion, Philosophy) > Daughter of Abraham Solomon and Yakhobeth. M.A. Ph.D. Bombay. In > 1949-56 Lecturer in Sanskrit, 1956-58 Professor, 1958-64 Professor of > Sanskrit and Ancient Indian Culture at B.J. Institute of Learning. In > 1964-77 Reader and Head of Sanskrit Dept. at Gujarat University School > of Languages in Ahmedabad. From 1977 Professor and Head of Sanskrit > Dept. at School of Languages, Gujarat University. Unmarried. > ? /Avidy?: A problem of truth and reality./ 27+572 p. Gujarat Univ., > Theses Publ. Ser. 8. Ahmedabad 1969. > ?/Indian dialectics./ 1-2. Ahmedabad 1976-78;/The Commentaries of the > S??khya K?rik?: A study./ 12+216 p. Ahmedabad 1974; /Ganadharav?da./ > 19??; /Hindu Darsana./ 19??. > ? ed. /S??khya-vrtti (V2)./ 9+111 p. Ahmedabad 1973; > /S??khya-Saptati-Vrtti (V2)./ 11+173 p. Ahmedabad 1973. > ? tr. /Siddh?nta?le?asa?graha/. L.D. Ser. 114. Ahmedabad 1990. > ? articles in /Sambodhi/. > (/India's Who's Who/ 1979-80, 136) > > Best, > Klaus > > Klaus Karttunen > South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies > Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures > PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) > 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND > Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 > Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 > Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > > > > > > >> On 25 Sep 2017, at 13:44, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >> > wrote: >> >> Dear friends, >> >> As I read through Esther Solomon's dissertation,/Avidy??A Problem of >> Truth and Reality,/ >> which was kindly made available to me in pdf by members of this list, >> I have wanted to learn >> more of Solomon herself, but have not so far found reference to a >> biography or even a >> necrology. What I have been able to learn, in essence, is that she >> was a member of the small >> Ahmedabadi Jewish community, for which she is a source of pride owing >> to her accomplishments >> as a Sanskrit scholar. But, besides elements of her bibliography, >> that's about all I've been able >> to come up with. >> >> Might any of you know of a source that provides a sketch of her life >> and career? She certainly merits >> a few paragraphs in the annals of twentieth-century Indology. >> >> thanks in advance, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where >> you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Mon Sep 25 11:52:19 2017 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 11:52:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65A7C@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: <903024E9-6908-4353-AED5-D4E30E4D9BD1@austin.utexas.edu> Dear Matthew: This is not going to be something important, but I remember visiting Ahmedabad in 1975 with my wife, Suman. We visited the B.J. Institute and met with the Professor of Sanskrit Esther Solomon. Only after I visited and met her did I learn that she was an Indian Jew. She was so hospitable and kind to a young unknown scholar from the US. If not for the name, I would never have suspected that she was a Jew ? wore a Gujarati saree and very much a Gujarati lady culturally. With best wishes, Patrick On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:44 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear friends, As I read through Esther Solomon's dissertation, Avidy??A Problem of Truth and Reality, which was kindly made available to me in pdf by members of this list, I have wanted to learn more of Solomon herself, but have not so far found reference to a biography or even a necrology. What I have been able to learn, in essence, is that she was a member of the small Ahmedabadi Jewish community, for which she is a source of pride owing to her accomplishments as a Sanskrit scholar. But, besides elements of her bibliography, that's about all I've been able to come up with. Might any of you know of a source that provides a sketch of her life and career? She certainly merits a few paragraphs in the annals of twentieth-century Indology. thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From royce.wiles at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 12:12:56 2017 From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 22:12:56 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <903024E9-6908-4353-AED5-D4E30E4D9BD1@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <69161F60-AA1B-4760-B702-C192B60D2491@gmail.com> A minor addition: in the 1990s, while I was reading Prakrit texts with AM Ghatage in the office of the Prakrit Dictionary Project (Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune), I noticed that some of the rare Prakrit text editions being used for the dictionary research had previously belonged to Esther Solomon (there were inscriptions in the front of some items). So at least some volumes from her library made its way into that collection. > On 25 Sep 2017, at 21:52, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Matthew: > > This is not going to be something important, but I remember visiting Ahmedabad in 1975 with my wife, Suman. We visited the B.J. Institute and met with the Professor of Sanskrit Esther Solomon. Only after I visited and met her did I learn that she was an Indian Jew. She was so hospitable and kind to a young unknown scholar from the US. If not for the name, I would never have suspected that she was a Jew ? wore a Gujarati saree and very much a Gujarati lady culturally. With best wishes, > > Patrick > > > > >> On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:44 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> Dear friends, >> >> As I read through Esther Solomon's dissertation, Avidy??A Problem of Truth and Reality, >> which was kindly made available to me in pdf by members of this list, I have wanted to learn >> more of Solomon herself, but have not so far found reference to a biography or even a >> necrology. What I have been able to learn, in essence, is that she was a member of the small >> Ahmedabadi Jewish community, for which she is a source of pride owing to her accomplishments >> as a Sanskrit scholar. But, besides elements of her bibliography, that's about all I've been able >> to come up with. >> >> Might any of you know of a source that provides a sketch of her life and career? She certainly merits >> a few paragraphs in the annals of twentieth-century Indology. >> >> thanks in advance, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Mon Sep 25 12:32:19 2017 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 14:32:19 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <69161F60-AA1B-4760-B702-C192B60D2491@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170925143219.Horde.H1iNew1ZsFAj4s68aKvxhNW@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Another minor addition. Her colleagues and students in Ahmedabad are now preparing a commemoration volume. Presumably some biographical materials will become available there. She is survived by her nephew (Aviv) and niece (Rina) who keep her unpublished papers. As you probably know, her translation of the Tattvopaplavasimha was published posthumously by her student Suchita Mehta. Best wishes, Eli Zitat von Royce Wiles via INDOLOGY : > A minor addition: in the 1990s, while I was reading Prakrit texts > with AM Ghatage in the office of the Prakrit Dictionary Project > (Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune), I noticed that some > of the rare Prakrit text editions being used for the dictionary > research had previously belonged to Esther Solomon (there were > inscriptions in the front of some items). So at least some volumes > from her library made its way into that collection. > > >> On 25 Sep 2017, at 21:52, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> Dear Matthew: >> >> This is not going to be something important, but I remember >> visiting Ahmedabad in 1975 with my wife, Suman. We visited the B.J. >> Institute and met with the Professor of Sanskrit Esther Solomon. >> Only after I visited and met her did I learn that she was an Indian >> Jew. She was so hospitable and kind to a young unknown scholar from >> the US. If not for the name, I would never have suspected that she >> was a Jew ? wore a Gujarati saree and very much a Gujarati lady >> culturally. With best wishes, >> >> Patrick >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:44 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear friends, >>> >>> As I read through Esther Solomon's dissertation, Avidy??A Problem >>> of Truth and Reality, >>> which was kindly made available to me in pdf by members of this >>> list, I have wanted to learn >>> more of Solomon herself, but have not so far found reference to a >>> biography or even a >>> necrology. What I have been able to learn, in essence, is that she >>> was a member of the small >>> Ahmedabadi Jewish community, for which she is a source of pride >>> owing to her accomplishments >>> as a Sanskrit scholar. But, besides elements of her bibliography, >>> that's about all I've been able >>> to come up with. >>> >>> Might any of you know of a source that provides a sketch of her >>> life and career? She certainly merits >>> a few paragraphs in the annals of twentieth-century Indology. >>> >>> thanks in advance, >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info >>> (messages to the list's >>> managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info >>> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) -- Prof. Dr. Eli Franco Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Schillerstr. 6 04109 Leipzig Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) Fax +49 341 9737 148 From adheesh1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 22:01:46 2017 From: adheesh1 at gmail.com (adheesh sathaye) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 17 15:01:46 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] REMINDER: 17th World Sanskrit Conference Proposals Due Soon! (Oct. 1, 2017) Message-ID: <0005920E-1568-4B1C-A96C-B4ACFC69309B@gmail.com> 17th World Sanskrit Conference Vancouver, Canada ? July 9-13, 2018 Dear Colleagues, We are sending this note to remind you that this is the FINAL WEEK to submit an individual paper abstract for the 17th World Sanskrit Conference, to be held in Vancouver, Canada, July 9-13, 2018. The LAST DAY to submit a proposal is OCTOBER 1, 2017. If you haven't already done so, please be sure to visit the WSC website, wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca, and submit your proposal as soon as you can! To begin the submission process, please visit our online submissions portal: https://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/ocs/wsc/2018/schedConf/cfp, where you will see the specific instructions for preparing a submission. After submitting the proposal abstract, you may again login to the portal through the same link to manage or edit your submission and also track its progress. Please note: all presenters within the SPECIAL PANELS are asked to submit their abstracts as individual papers, using the section "Special Panel" rather than one of the other 24 regular sections. If you encounter any difficulties with the portal please get in touch with the WSC Secretariat (wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca), and we will assist you in the process. ? Some additional tips and notes: * All proposals must be made through the online portal. We CANNOT accept emailed scans or PDFs sent to the Secretariat. * Because of limited space and time, each presenter may submit only one individual paper abstract for inclusion in the conference. * Papers may be delivered in Sanskrit, English, or French, with abstracts submitted in the same language. All correspondence with the Secretariat should also be in one of these three languages. * A list of the 21 regular and 3 special sections of the WSC can be found here: https://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca/info/sections/. * As you select your section during the proposal submission process, you may find that you need to scroll down *within* the menu to find sections 16 and beyond, depending on how your computer or device is set up. * Abstracts should be prepared using Unicode input methods, and you should use a modern operating system (Mac OSX, Linux, Windows 7+, and most smartphones and tablets). Please note that the WSC website does not function on devices running Windows XP. * Review of papers will begin in October 2017 and results will be announced January 2018 (early confirmation for visa purposes will be available in November 2017 for applicants from South/Southeast Asia). ? Help spread the word! Please encourage your colleagues and students to visit the website (wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca) and submit an individual paper proposal by October 1. As always, for up-to-date information, please consult the main conference website, wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca, and do not hesitate to contact the WSC2018 Secretariat (wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca ) for further assistance. ? Dr. Adheesh Sathaye Associate Professor of Sanskrit Literature and South Asian Folklore Dept. of Asian Studies || University of British Columbia 408-1871 West Mall || Vancouver, BC CANADA V6T1Z2 adheesh at mail.ubc.ca || +1.604.822.5188 Lead Organizer, 17th World Sanskrit Conference, Vancouver, Canada, July 9-13, 2018 http://wsc.ubcsanskrit.ca || wsc2018 at ubcsanskrit.ca || ????? ??????? ???????? ?? From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue Sep 26 07:44:57 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 07:44:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <20170925143219.Horde.H1iNew1ZsFAj4s68aKvxhNW@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65D5F@xm-mbx-06-prod> Many thanks to all who responded to my query. Let us hope that the planned commemoration volume mentioned by Eli Franco will appear in the near future and include further biographical information and full bibliography. In addition to your comments, I note, by the way, that the Jain elibrary contains pdf-s of three of Prof. Solomon's works: Ganadharavada (this is available on other platforms as well, as some of you noted) Siddhantalesa Sangraha (in Gujarati with the Sanskrit text in devanagari) and an article "Conversion of Agnibhuti," from the India Jain Journal 1971 Unfortunately, Prof. Solomon's opus Indian Dialectics (2 vols) does not seem to be available in an electronic version. The Hathi Trust indeed has scans, but makes them available only in snippet view. So, if any of you have access to full pdf-s, I would be most grateful. The work was published in a very limited edition and is now totally unavailable for purchase. best to all, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From yogacara at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 09:43:41 2017 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 05:43:41 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65D5F@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: Dear Matt, According to Harvard?s library catalog, the Center for Research Libraries (CRL) has a copy of Indian Dialectics available through ILL. Their home base is in Chicago: (800) 621-6044 x773 Address: 6050 S. Kenwood Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637-2804 There is also a hardcopy in the Harvard library, so if you can?t get it any other way, let me know and I?ll make a PDF. I?m happy to see you promote her work, which has otherwise remained in the shadows. best, Dan > On Sep 26, 2017, at 3:44 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Many thanks to all who responded to my query. Let us hope that the planned commemoration volume > mentioned by Eli Franco will appear in the near future and include further biographical information > and full bibliography. > > In addition to your comments, I note, by the way, that the Jain elibrary contains pdf-s of three > of Prof. Solomon's works: > Ganadharavada (this is available on other platforms as well, as some of you noted) > Siddhantalesa Sangraha (in Gujarati with the Sanskrit text in devanagari) > and an article "Conversion of Agnibhuti," from the India Jain Journal 1971 > > Unfortunately, Prof. Solomon's opus Indian Dialectics (2 vols) does not seem to be available > in an electronic version. The Hathi Trust indeed has scans, but makes them available only > in snippet view. So, if any of you have access to full pdf-s, I would be most grateful. The work > was published in a very limited edition and is now totally unavailable for purchase. > > best to all, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > > ________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Tue Sep 26 10:09:24 2017 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 12:09:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20170926120924.093ba1e407f8b07ae25f7ea3@ff.cuni.cz> Dear Colleagues, I have pdf of both volumes of this invaluable work (I think originally from DLI), so I will upload them soon on archive.org. They should be there already, since there is a mirror of DLI, but I am not able to locate them. Best, Lubomir On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 05:43:41 -0400 Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Matt, > > According to Harvard?s library catalog, the Center for Research Libraries (CRL) has a copy of Indian Dialectics available through ILL. Their home base is in Chicago: > (800) 621-6044 x773 > Address: > 6050 S. Kenwood Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637-2804 > > There is also a hardcopy in the Harvard library, so if you can?t get it any other way, let me know and I?ll make a PDF. > > I?m happy to see you promote her work, which has otherwise remained in the shadows. > > best, > Dan > > > On Sep 26, 2017, at 3:44 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > > > > Many thanks to all who responded to my query. Let us hope that the planned commemoration volume > > mentioned by Eli Franco will appear in the near future and include further biographical information > > and full bibliography. > > > > In addition to your comments, I note, by the way, that the Jain elibrary contains pdf-s of three > > of Prof. Solomon's works: > > Ganadharavada (this is available on other platforms as well, as some of you noted) > > Siddhantalesa Sangraha (in Gujarati with the Sanskrit text in devanagari) > > and an article "Conversion of Agnibhuti," from the India Jain Journal 1971 > > > > Unfortunately, Prof. Solomon's opus Indian Dialectics (2 vols) does not seem to be available > > in an electronic version. The Hathi Trust indeed has scans, but makes them available only > > in snippet view. So, if any of you have access to full pdf-s, I would be most grateful. The work > > was published in a very limited edition and is now totally unavailable for purchase. > > > > best to all, > > Matthew > > > > Matthew Kapstein > > Directeur d'?tudes, > > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > > The University of Chicago > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue Sep 26 10:13:07 2017 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 10:13:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65D5F@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047C65F34@xm-mbx-06-prod> A great dhanyav?d to Hartmut Buescher, Rocco Cestola, Vincent Eltschinger, Dan Lusthaus and Lubomir Ondracka. The Indology list comes through again! I indeed have Indoan Dialectics. thanks to all, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY [indology at list.indology.info] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 2:44 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon Many thanks to all who responded to my query. Let us hope that the planned commemoration volume mentioned by Eli Franco will appear in the near future and include further biographical information and full bibliography. In addition to your comments, I note, by the way, that the Jain elibrary contains pdf-s of three of Prof. Solomon's works: Ganadharavada (this is available on other platforms as well, as some of you noted) Siddhantalesa Sangraha (in Gujarati with the Sanskrit text in devanagari) and an article "Conversion of Agnibhuti," from the India Jain Journal 1971 Unfortunately, Prof. Solomon's opus Indian Dialectics (2 vols) does not seem to be available in an electronic version. The Hathi Trust indeed has scans, but makes them available only in snippet view. So, if any of you have access to full pdf-s, I would be most grateful. The work was published in a very limited edition and is now totally unavailable for purchase. best to all, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From collinb1 at ohio.edu Tue Sep 26 13:46:52 2017 From: collinb1 at ohio.edu (Collins, Brian) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 13:46:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF Request Message-ID: Dear List, I have submitted a request for the microfiche and am still waiting, but does anyone have a PDF of Sonja Stark-Wilder?s thesis, "Die G?ttin Renuka in Mythos und Kultur eine Analyse ihrer sakralen Pr?senz unter besonderer Ber?cksichtigung ihrer Verbreitung in Maharashtra?? Thanks, Brian Asst. Prof. Brian Collins Drs. Ram and Sushila Gawande Chair in Indian Religion and Philosophy N282 Lindley Hall Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 740-597-2103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Tue Sep 26 16:14:00 2017 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 18:14:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esther A. Solomon In-Reply-To: <20170926120924.093ba1e407f8b07ae25f7ea3@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <20170926181400.f28ad44806d0d1044bdd85c4@ff.cuni.cz> Dear Colleagues, both volumes of Esther Solomon's Indian Dialectics are now on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/SOLOMONIndianDialecticsI https://archive.org/details/SOLOMONIndianDialecticsII Best, Lubomir On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 12:09:24 +0200 Lubom?r Ondra?ka via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I have pdf of both volumes of this invaluable work (I think originally from DLI), so I will upload them soon on archive.org. They should be there already, since there is a mirror of DLI, but I am not able to locate them. > > Best, > Lubomir > > > On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 05:43:41 -0400 > Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY wrote: > > > Dear Matt, > > > > According to Harvard?s library catalog, the Center for Research Libraries (CRL) has a copy of Indian Dialectics available through ILL. Their home base is in Chicago: > > (800) 621-6044 x773 > > Address: > > 6050 S. Kenwood Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637-2804 > > > > There is also a hardcopy in the Harvard library, so if you can?t get it any other way, let me know and I?ll make a PDF. > > > > I?m happy to see you promote her work, which has otherwise remained in the shadows. > > > > best, > > Dan > > > > > On Sep 26, 2017, at 3:44 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > > > > > > Many thanks to all who responded to my query. Let us hope that the planned commemoration volume > > > mentioned by Eli Franco will appear in the near future and include further biographical information > > > and full bibliography. > > > > > > In addition to your comments, I note, by the way, that the Jain elibrary contains pdf-s of three > > > of Prof. Solomon's works: > > > Ganadharavada (this is available on other platforms as well, as some of you noted) > > > Siddhantalesa Sangraha (in Gujarati with the Sanskrit text in devanagari) > > > and an article "Conversion of Agnibhuti," from the India Jain Journal 1971 > > > > > > Unfortunately, Prof. Solomon's opus Indian Dialectics (2 vols) does not seem to be available > > > in an electronic version. The Hathi Trust indeed has scans, but makes them available only > > > in snippet view. So, if any of you have access to full pdf-s, I would be most grateful. The work > > > was published in a very limited edition and is now totally unavailable for purchase. > > > > > > best to all, > > > Matthew > > > > > > Matthew Kapstein > > > Directeur d'?tudes, > > > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > > > > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > > > The University of Chicago > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu Tue Sep 26 16:26:06 2017 From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 12:26:06 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues, Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of Bu?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Charles -- Dr. des. Charles DiSimone Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Sep 26 16:40:29 2017 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 16:40:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4C000A22-0CBD-48F4-8754-968B6DC2E063@austin.utexas.edu> Reinhold Grunendahl, South Indian Scripts in Sanskrit Manuscripts and Prints. Harrassowitz, 2001. > On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of Bu?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Charles > > -- > Dr. des. Charles DiSimone > Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From LubinT at wlu.edu Tue Sep 26 19:13:53 2017 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 19:13:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? In-Reply-To: <4C000A22-0CBD-48F4-8754-968B6DC2E063@austin.utexas.edu> Message-ID: Professor Gr?nendahl?s manual is indeed indispensable, since it covers Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam scripts as well, with lots of charts. For comparative paleographic charts, though, you could consult: Elements of South-Indian Pal?ography, from the Fourth to the Seventeenth Century, A. D.: Being an Introduction to the Study of South-Indian Inscriptions and Mss by Arthur Coke Burnell Tr?bner & Company, 1878: https://books.google.com/books?id=ywcIAAAAQAAJ Unfortunately, the Google Books scan, as so often, shows some of the plates folded up rather than open, so you?ll need to procure a hard copy from a library. Best wishes, Timothy Lubin Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law Chair of the Department of Religion 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Patrick Olivelle > Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 12:40 PM To: Charles DiSimone > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? Reinhold Grunendahl, South Indian Scripts in Sanskrit Manuscripts and Prints. Harrassowitz, 2001. On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of Bu?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Charles -- Dr. des. Charles DiSimone Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericmgurevitch at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 19:55:42 2017 From: ericmgurevitch at gmail.com (Eric Gurevitch) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 17 14:55:42 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64D619C1-0A88-4952-90B9-0EC6951C8C30@gmail.com> In addition to the terrific works already mentioned, a good place to start (especially for it?s bibliography) is the following essay: Rath, Saraju. 2012. ?Varieties of Grantha Script: The Date and Place of Origin of Manuscripts.? In Aspects of Manuscript Culture in South India, edited by Saraju Rath, 187?206. Leiden: Brill. > On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Lubin, Tim via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Professor Gr?nendahl?s manual is indeed indispensable, since it covers Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam scripts as well, with lots of charts. For comparative paleographic charts, though, you could consult: > > Elements of South-Indian Pal?ography, from the Fourth to the Seventeenth Century, A. D.: Being an Introduction to the Study of South-Indian Inscriptions and Mss > by Arthur Coke Burnell > Tr?bner & Company, 1878: > https://books.google.com/books?id=ywcIAAAAQAAJ > Unfortunately, the Google Books scan, as so often, shows some of the plates folded up rather than open, so you?ll need to procure a hard copy from a library. > > Best wishes, > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > Chair of the Department of Religion > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 > > > > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > > Reply-To: Patrick Olivelle > > Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 12:40 PM > To: Charles DiSimone > > Cc: INDOLOGY > > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? > > Reinhold Grunendahl, South Indian Scripts in Sanskrit Manuscripts and Prints. Harrassowitz, 2001. > > > > >> On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >> Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of Bu?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much appreciated. >> Thanks in advance, >> Charles >> -- >> Dr. des. Charles DiSimone >> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Wed Sep 27 06:57:18 2017 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 06:57:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Evidence suggests the Mythical Continent of Lemuria actually existed Message-ID: Dear List, The following topic may be of interest to anyone. Regards Debabrata Chakrabarti Evidence suggests the Mythical Continent of Lemuria actually existed http://ewao.com/2017/02/24/evidence-suggests-mythical-continent-lemuria-actually-existed/ [http://www.ancient-code.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/adamsb2.jpg] Evidence suggests the mythical continent of Lemuria ... ewao.com Recently, scientists have discovered at least TWO sunken continents on Earth. The discovery of these continents has changed the way we look at Earth's history ... ???This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.??? ??? Anandamayi Ma ???Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.??? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Sep 27 07:48:21 2017 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 09:48:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? In-Reply-To: <64D619C1-0A88-4952-90B9-0EC6951C8C30@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19CCF58D-74D0-4292-A148-A60D5B875B2F@uclouvain.be> Also useful (for the ductus etc.) for Grantha: ? K. Venugopalam, A Primer in Grantha characters, publ. by James H. Nye, 1983 https://archive.org/stream/APrimerInGranthaCharacters/A%20Primer%20in%20Grantha%20Characters_djvu.txt http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/dig_toc.html?BOOKID=PK419.V468_1983 ? Virtual Vinodh, Grantha Primer http://www.virtualvinodh.com/wp/grantha/ And for Telugu: ? Edward C. Hill, A Primer in Telugu characters, Indological Primers Series ed. James H. Nye, New Delhi: Manohar, 1991 http://www.learningtelugu.org/files/A%20primer%20of%20Telugu%20charaters.pdf http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/dig_toc.html?BOOKID=PL4772.H550_1991 Le 26 sept. 2017 ? 21:55, Eric Gurevitch via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > In addition to the terrific works already mentioned, a good place to start (especially for it?s bibliography) is the following essay: > > Rath, Saraju. 2012. ?Varieties of Grantha Script: The Date and Place of Origin of Manuscripts.? In Aspects of Manuscript Culture in South India, edited by Saraju Rath, 187?206. Leiden: Brill. > >> On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Lubin, Tim via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> Professor Gr?nendahl?s manual is indeed indispensable, since it covers Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam scripts as well, with lots of charts. For comparative paleographic charts, though, you could consult: >> >> Elements of South-Indian Pal?ography, from the Fourth to the Seventeenth Century, A. D.: Being an Introduction to the Study of South-Indian Inscriptions and Mss >> by Arthur Coke Burnell >> Tr?bner & Company, 1878: >> https://books.google.com/books?id=ywcIAAAAQAAJ >> Unfortunately, the Google Books scan, as so often, shows some of the plates folded up rather than open, so you?ll need to procure a hard copy from a library. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Timothy Lubin >> Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law >> Chair of the Department of Religion >> 204 Tucker Hall >> Washington and Lee University >> Lexington, Virginia 24450 >> >> http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint >> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin >> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 >> >> >> >> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY >> Reply-To: Patrick Olivelle >> Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 12:40 PM >> To: Charles DiSimone >> Cc: INDOLOGY >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? >> >> Reinhold Grunendahl, South Indian Scripts in Sanskrit Manuscripts and Prints. Harrassowitz, 2001. >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> Dear Friends and Colleagues, >>> Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of B?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much appreciated. >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Charles >>> -- >>> Dr. des. Charles DiSimone >>> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 08:29:20 2017 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 10:29:20 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? In-Reply-To: <19CCF58D-74D0-4292-A148-A60D5B875B2F@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: You will find Burnell's tables and others here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/o6monusnfpvj8om/AAD9Gtquu0BLr45NnGf7hnCRa?dl=0 -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis 2017-09-27 9:48 GMT+02:00 Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Also useful (for the ductus etc.) for Grantha: > ? K. Venugopalam, A Primer in Grantha characters, publ. by James H. Nye, > 1983 > https://archive.org/stream/APrimerInGranthaCharacters/A% > 20Primer%20in%20Grantha%20Characters_djvu.txt > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/dig_toc.html?BOOKID=PK419.V468_1983 > > ? Virtual Vinodh, Grantha Primer > http://www.virtualvinodh.com/wp/grantha/ > > And for Telugu: > ? Edward C. Hill, A Primer in Telugu characters, Indological Primers > Series ed. James H. Nye, New Delhi: Manohar, 1991 > http://www.learningtelugu.org/files/A%20primer%20of% > 20Telugu%20charaters.pdf > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/dig_toc.html?BOOKID=PL4772.H550_1991 > > Le 26 sept. 2017 ? 21:55, Eric Gurevitch via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > In addition to the terrific works already mentioned, a good place to start > (especially for it?s bibliography) is the following essay: > > Rath, Saraju. 2012. ?Varieties of Grantha Script: The Date and Place of > Origin of Manuscripts.? In *Aspects of Manuscript Culture in South India*, > edited by Saraju Rath, 187?206. Leiden: Brill. > > On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Lubin, Tim via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Professor Gr?nendahl?s manual is indeed indispensable, since it covers > Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam scripts as well, with lots of charts. For > comparative paleographic charts, though, you could consult: > > Elements of South-Indian Pal?ography, from the Fourth to the Seventeenth > Century, A. D.: Being an Introduction to the Study of South-Indian > Inscriptions and Mss > by Arthur Coke Burnell > Tr?bner & Company, 1878: > https://books.google.com/books?id=ywcIAAAAQAAJ > Unfortunately, the Google Books scan, as so often, shows some of the > plates folded up rather than open, so you?ll need to procure a hard copy > from a library. > > Best wishes, > > Timothy Lubin > Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > Chair of the Department of Religion > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=930949 > > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Patrick Olivelle > Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 12:40 PM > To: Charles DiSimone > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? > > Reinhold Grunendahl, South Indian Scripts in Sanskrit Manuscripts and > Prints. Harrassowitz, 2001. > > > > > On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in > Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and > Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of > B?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much > appreciated. > Thanks in advance, > Charles > -- > Dr. des. Charles DiSimone > Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ofrey at me.com Wed Sep 27 08:35:31 2017 From: ofrey at me.com (Oliver Frey) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 10:35:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Grantha/South Indian Paleography Resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just uploaded a high resolution scan of Burnell?s "Elements of South? Indian Pal?ography? to archive.org : https://archive.org/details/Burnell1878 (plates/tables of characters open, not folded up) oliver frey university of vienna On 26 Sep 2017, at 18:26, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear Friends and Colleagues, Might anyone suggest a good paleographical resource for manuscripts in Grantha script (as well as other scripts used in Sanskrit (or Tamil and Telugu) manuscripts produced in the South)? I'm presently making use of Bu?hler's Indische Palaeographie and any other resources would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Charles -- Dr. des. Charles DiSimone Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 10:56:58 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 16:26:58 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for missing one page - Higher Sanskrit Grammar Anundoram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all I have downloaded this book https://books.google.co.in/books?id=r-5uvzlUafwC&pg=PP9#v=onepage&q&f=false Unfortunately the page number 29 is missing and the page 30 scanned twice. If anyone has the access kindly provide the missing page. Your help will be highly admired Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Sep 27 13:47:27 2017 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 13:47:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Majumdar, History of Ancient Bengal Message-ID: Colleagues, Is anyone able to obtain the pdf for this Hathi Trust item? Or else, does anyone happen to have another kind of pdf for this book? Thank you. Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david_buchta at brown.edu Wed Sep 27 15:04:56 2017 From: david_buchta at brown.edu (Buchta, David) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 11:04:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Majumdar, History of Ancient Bengal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Griffiths, The book is available through the West Bengal Public Library's website. The website can be down now and then, but it seems to be working right now. And unfortunately, they break their books up into multiple files, so for this book you'll have to download about 15-20 files and then use Acrobat or the like to combine them into one PDF. Here's the link: http://dspace.wbpublibnet.gov.in:8080/jspui/handle/10689/13287 Best, Dave Buchta -- David Buchta, PhD Lecturer in Sanskrit Department of Classics Brown University On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Colleagues, > > > Is anyone able to obtain the pdf for this Hathi Trust item? > > > > > > Or else, does anyone happen to have another kind of pdf for this book? > > > Thank you. > > > Arlo Griffiths > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 18:39:13 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 17 04:39:13 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Autsanash Purana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Friends, Might anyone know something more or have a copy of the "autsanash purana" mentioned in this book? https://books.google.com.au/books?id=YQoaBwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Rana+P.+B.+Singh+with+a+Foreword+by+John+McKim+Malville%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicpM_dgMbWAhXGyLwKHS83DyYQ6AEICjAA#v=onepage&q=Autsanash%20purana&f=false Thanks, Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Sep 27 20:21:00 2017 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 17 20:21:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Majumdar, History of Ancient Bengal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks to the several colleagues who have sent kind replies. The book is available here: [https://archive.org/services/img/in.ernet.dli.2015.98674] History Of Ancient Bengal : Majumdar, R. C : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive archive.org Book Source: Digital Library of India Item 2015.98674dc.contributor.author: Majumdar, R. Cdc.date.accessioned: 2015-07-01T16:27:40Zdc.date.available:... Sincerely, Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 1:47 PM To: INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] Majumdar, History of Ancient Bengal Colleagues, Is anyone able to obtain the pdf for this Hathi Trust item? Or else, does anyone happen to have another kind of pdf for this book? Thank you. Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 28 12:11:45 2017 From: a.murugaiyan at wanadoo.fr (a.murugaiyan) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 17 14:11:45 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__International_Symposium-South_Indian_Epigraphy_and_Art_History,_Paris,_12_=E2=80=93_13_October_2017?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6941850d-f660-bef8-b711-c9b5c8a55a4f@wanadoo.fr> Dear colleagues, We are pleased to forward the programme of the forthcoming International Symposium South Indian Epigraphy and Art History In memory of Professor Noboru Karashima Auditorium, Institut National d?Histoire de l?Art, Paris, 12 ? 13 October 2017 *Rationale:* The symposium focuses on a multidisciplinary approach and addresses scholars interested in the South Indian archaeology, epigraphy, history, history of art, linguistics, literature, history of religions, sociology, social anthropology etc. Participants will lay emphasis on the impact of the new data on different fields of historical studies on both South India and South Asia (programme attached). The major aim of this symposium is to bring in all the new discoveries and to update the epigraphical, iconographic and archaeological resource materials available for the historical studies. Part of the symposium will be devoted to questions related to digital preservation and dissemination of epigraphical, iconographic and archaeological resources.Researchers will be invited to talk about the construction and use of database and search engine. *For more details, please check the link below:* http://www.iran-inde.cnrs.fr/scientific-events/events-2017/epigraphie-et-histoire-de-l-art-de-l-inde-meridionale.html?lang=en *Organisers:* Appasamy Murugaiyan, EPHE-UMR 7528 Mondes iranien et indien Edith Renault-Parlier, Universit? Paris, Sorbonne ? CREOPS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Symposium_SouthIndianEpigraphy-ArtHistry.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1378142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tlighthiser at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 03:12:14 2017 From: tlighthiser at gmail.com (Timothy P. Lighthiser) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 17 21:12:14 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF Request: Elizarenkova's Notes on the wolf .... Message-ID: Hello! Does anyone have a PDF of the article below that they would be willing to share? Thank you! t >From SARDS: Author : Elizarenkova, Tatiana Yakovlevna Title : Notes on the wolf in the ?gveda Journal : Rocznik Oryentalistyczny Volume : 60 Year : 2007 Page : 43-48 Keyword : '?gveda'; wolf; v?ka; etymology; lexicography; semantics Quote : Elizarenkova, Tatiana Yakovlevna: Notes on the wolf in the ?gveda, in: Rocznik Oryentalistyczny, 60, 2007, S. 43-48. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 04:04:23 2017 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 17 14:04:23 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nagaraj, Sorry, but I've been dealing with getting married 2x in two different states over the past two weeks to respond. Let me respond to your questions. Sorry if it is a bit over the place. I've written in a bit of a rush. * 'within the multi-trillion dollar wellness industry', what is the ratio of the 'the global consumption of yoga-inflected lifestyles' ? * ++ The global wellness industry is valued at about USD 4 trillion and global yoga is worth about USD 500billion. This link explains the value of tourism to India. *Is your current research project focused, among other things, on the 'socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH and MEA' ? * ++ yes. I am explicitly interested in the marketing of yoga, wellness and mindfulness by AYUSH and MEA and the economic, social and political impacts. *Why are you interested in those aspirations? What is so intriguing about a state having such aspirations? * ++ because they are interesting. I'm intrigued by how different narratives are woven together to create 'history', legitimacy and authority, particularly when it comes to consumption of yoga within a global framework - there are many reconstituted narratives that are used by the Indian state and global yoga/wellness to sell commodified spiritual tourism to India, which reifies and essentialises many things to create a romantic, idealised, sanitized image of yoga and India. How these narratives intersect fascinates me. How they are involved in promoting a soft hindutva and banal consumption through the global yoga industry are interesting. So, you could say i'm mostly interested in how the Indian state 'weaponises' yoga in the pursuit of increasing its soft power potential. There are many criticisms levelled at consumers of global yoga: white washing and cultural appropriation being the most egregious, but if you look at the rhetoric of global yoga and the Indian state, they essentialise an image of yoga that will possibly re-enchant worlds using the same 19th century tropes. So, it's a bit hard to just go after consumers of yoga, who are enticed by the many things, but also the official rhetoric of the India state about magical, mystical, sacred, amulya bharat. For instance, the MEA says the following : +++ A Brief History and Development of Yoga: The practice of Yoga is believed to have started with the very dawn of civilization. The science of yoga has its origin thousands of years ago, long before the first religions or belief systems were born. In the yogic lore, Shiva is seen as the first yogi or Adiyogi, and the first Guru or Adi Guru. Several Thousand years ago, on the banks of the lake Kantisarovar in the Himalayas, Adiyogi poured his profound knowledge into the legendary Saptarishis or "seven sages?. The sages carried this powerful yogic science to different parts of the world, including Asia, the Middle East, Northern Africa and South America. Interestingly, modern scholars have noted and marvelled at the close parallels found between ancient cultures across the globe. However, it was in India that the yogic system found its fullest expression. Agastya, the Saptarishi who travelled across the Indian subcontinent, crafted this culture around a core yogic way of life. +++ *Do you think 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to be 5000 years old, and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and which explicitly states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god' is part of 'the construction of narratives to also suit socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH and MEA' ?* ++yes. I argue that they built upon the official rhetoric of the state, which is doing the opposite of decolonising yoga. *Are you feeling bad that ' there are many people within yogaland who do not have any appreciation for historicity, and would prefer for a sense of magic and wonder to reenchant their lives.'? In a recent mail, you said, " , my remit is to suspend judgement and disbelief, and try to privilege the emic perspective." I said, "Do you think Indology centred around /rooted in historical critical method and privileging emic perspectives that are neither historical nor critical can go hand in hand? **" Here is a sample of that mismatch*. ++ I have no feeling, either way, towards what people do or not do within yogaland. If people do want to live in a magic-fuelled world of neo-orientalist imaginings, that's up to them. It's a good question you raise - but I don't think what you say above matters, does it? - are you really trying to say that we should not use the historical/critical method? What would you prefer or offer as an alternative? As you know, history is complicated. So is what we as individuals and groups do with it to create meaning and legitimacy. I'm quite happy to listen to what someone believes to be 'true', I'm also happy to accept in a subjective relativist way that it's 'true' for them. But that doesn't mean we should not fact check and try and understand larger, deeper, forces at play, and contextualise things. There are many, many non sequiturs that I've endured, patiently, through fieldwork, which are beliefs and opinions - suspending judgement means not having an argument with someone who has taken the time to answer my questions; while privileging their perspective means including it in my narrative. I'm honestly not sure how else to go about overriding the mismatch you speak of, other than this. ----------------------------------------- *Who are the target market of this Vedic Thai Yoga massage ? Why or how do they have a respect or attraction for the label 'Vedic' ? Indians, particularly Hindus, more particularly traditionally oriented educated Hindus may have a pull for the 'Vedic' label. Why at all does that label matter for any customers other than of that category? Why does that label create magic and wonder?* ++ people who want massages and who want to feel connected to some ancient, unbroken lineage. Like I've already said, and I don't think it matters whether it's an emic or etic perspective, 'vedic' just like Dominik asserts '5000' is more about a feeling than anything else, its an appeal to tradition, emotion, authority and purity. But, it does matter. Obviously, because people are attracted to it. Why not, instead, just call it Thai (yoga) massage, or Thai massage? Because they are trying to create distinction and carve up a piece of crowded market place. But I also think that Vedic is a more preferred term by global yoga consumers as a euphemism, which helps many to digest the indelible Hindu elements of the worlds they create and consume. But there are many errors, for instance, with the 5000 yr date for the Bh?gavatam, just one example. Another is mentioning that many pur?nic gods are vedic. There is very little appreciation for the historical development from the Vedic period today, it's just seen as a flatland without many, if any, contours. Perhaps the time scale and depth and breadth are just too much for most people. One certainly won't learn much, if at all, about these complexities in a yoga teacher-training course. Certainly not anything about the politics of yoga. Instead, one will be told many things, such as the way in which the hieratic and structural inequalities of caste is essentialised as simply true. These types of statements are too often consumed uncritically. For instance, I was once told by a non-Hindu, American yoga teacher who was visiting an ashram: "the reason there are shudras is so we can do yoga, someone has to do the cleaning, otherwise when will we get to do our yoga". There is so much going on in this one statement. The uncritical support for caste oppression astounds me... One thing is also for certain is that yoga-teacher trainees will most likely be told that the pashupatinath seal is undisputed proof of yoga's claims to antiquity. That is a stretch...as I'm guessing there were many people sitting cross-legged on the floor 3500years ago. This same claim is made by a few gurus as well, that because there are figures found in South America, that this proves that these yogis mentioned above travelled there and gave 'yoga' to the cultures of South America. Are you suggesting, then, that we should just not bother with the historical critical method and accept these truth claims as true, because of someone's misinformed opinion? This sort of epistemic relativism, combined with the disintellectualisation+cultivation of affect that underlies the logic of the guru-disciple relationship, plus the normalising group-think inherent in many social networks creates an unsustainably toxic situation, in my humble opinion, that leads people to accept many things as 'true' simply because the guru says it is. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD JSPS Fellow - Kyoto University Visiting Fellow - Australian National University Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) academia - Linkedin Edanz Modern Yoga Research > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 06:15:48 2017 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 17 11:45:48 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for missing one page - Higher Sanskrit Grammar Anundoram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Thomas Kintaert for sending the page On 29-Sep-2017 11:44 AM, "Thomas Kintaert" wrote: Dear Krishnaprasad, Page 29 is available in a scan of vol. 2 of Borooah's English-Sanskrit Dictionary, which includes his grammar. The page is attached. With best regards, Thomas ----- Dr. Thomas Kintaert Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna Uni-Campus AAKH Spitalg. 2, Hof 2.1 A-1090 Wien, Austria (Europe) http://univie.academia.edu/TKintaert thomas.kintaert at univie.ac.at On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Krishnaprasad G via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all > I have downloaded this book > https://books.google.co.in/books?id=r-5uvzlUafwC&pg=PP9#v=on > epage&q&f=false > > Unfortunately the page number 29 is missing and the page 30 scanned twice. > If anyone has the access kindly provide the missing page. Your help will > be highly admired > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 06:26:37 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 17 11:56:37 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Patrick-ji, for your detailed response(s). What an interesting way of defining 'suspension of judgement', 'privileging the emic perspective' ! suspending judgement means not having an argument with someone who has taken the time to answer my questions; while privileging their perspective means including it in my narrative. No point to continue the conversation On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:34 AM, patrick mccartney wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > Sorry, but I've been dealing with getting married 2x in two different > states over the past two weeks to respond. > Let me respond to your questions. Sorry if it is a bit over the place. > I've written in a bit of a rush. > > * 'within the multi-trillion dollar wellness industry', what is the ratio > of the 'the global consumption of yoga-inflected lifestyles' ? * > ++ > The global wellness industry is valued at about USD 4 trillion and global > yoga is worth about USD 500billion. This link > explains the value of > tourism to India. > > > *Is your current research project focused, among other things, on the > 'socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH > and MEA' ? * > ++ yes. I am explicitly interested in the marketing of yoga, wellness and > mindfulness by AYUSH and MEA and the economic, social and political impacts. > > > > *Why are you interested in those aspirations? What is so intriguing > about a state having such aspirations? * > ++ because they are interesting. I'm intrigued by how different narratives > are woven together to create 'history', legitimacy and authority, > particularly when it comes to consumption of yoga within a global framework > - there are many reconstituted narratives that are used by the Indian state > and global yoga/wellness to sell commodified spiritual tourism to India, > which reifies and essentialises many things to create a romantic, > idealised, sanitized image of yoga and India. How these narratives > intersect fascinates me. How they are involved in promoting a soft hindutva > and banal consumption through the global yoga industry are interesting. So, > you could say i'm mostly interested in how the Indian state 'weaponises' > yoga in the pursuit of increasing its soft power potential. > > There are many criticisms levelled at consumers of global yoga: white > washing and cultural appropriation being the most egregious, but if you > look at the rhetoric of global yoga and the Indian state, they essentialise > an image of yoga that will possibly re-enchant worlds using the same 19th > century tropes. So, it's a bit hard to just go after consumers of yoga, who > are enticed by the many things, but also the official rhetoric of the India > state about magical, mystical, sacred, amulya bharat. For instance, the MEA > says the following > > : > > +++ > > A Brief History and Development of Yoga: > > The practice of Yoga is believed to have started with the very dawn of > civilization. The science of yoga has its origin thousands of years ago, > long before the first religions or belief systems were born. In the yogic > lore, Shiva is seen as the first yogi or Adiyogi, and the first Guru or Adi > Guru. > > Several Thousand years ago, on the banks of the lake Kantisarovar in the > Himalayas, Adiyogi poured his profound knowledge into the legendary > Saptarishis or "seven sages?. The sages carried this powerful yogic science > to different parts of the world, including Asia, the Middle East, Northern > Africa and South America. Interestingly, modern scholars have noted and > marvelled at the close parallels found between ancient cultures across the > globe. However, it was in India that the yogic system found its fullest > expression. Agastya, the Saptarishi who travelled across the Indian > subcontinent, crafted this culture around a core yogic way of life. > > +++ > > > *Do you think 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to be 5000 years old, > and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and which explicitly > states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god' is part of 'the construction of > narratives to also suit socio, political, economic aspirations of the > Indian state through AYUSH and MEA' ?* > ++yes. I argue that they built upon the official rhetoric of the state, > which is doing the opposite of decolonising yoga. > > *Are you feeling bad that ' there are many people within yogaland who do > not have any appreciation for historicity, and would prefer for a sense of > magic and wonder to reenchant their lives.'? In a recent mail, you said, > " , my remit is to suspend judgement and disbelief, and try to privilege > the emic perspective." I said, "Do you think Indology centred around > /rooted in historical critical method and privileging emic perspectives > that are neither historical nor critical can go hand in hand? **" Here is > a sample of that mismatch*. > ++ I have no feeling, either way, towards what people do or not do within > yogaland. If people do want to live in a magic-fuelled world of > neo-orientalist imaginings, that's up to them. > > It's a good question you raise - but I don't think what you say above > matters, does it? - are you really trying to say that we should not use the > historical/critical method? What would you prefer or offer as an > alternative? As you know, history is complicated. So is what we as > individuals and groups do with it to create meaning and legitimacy. I'm > quite happy to listen to what someone believes to be 'true', I'm also happy > to accept in a subjective relativist way that it's 'true' for them. But > that doesn't mean we should not fact check and try and understand larger, > deeper, forces at play, and contextualise things. There are many, many non > sequiturs that I've endured, patiently, through fieldwork, which are > beliefs and opinions - suspending judgement means not having an argument > with someone who has taken the time to answer my questions; while > privileging their perspective means including it in my narrative. I'm > honestly not sure how else to go about overriding the mismatch you speak > of, other than this. > > ----------------------------------------- > > *Who are the target market of this Vedic Thai Yoga massage ? Why or how do > they have a respect or attraction for the label 'Vedic' ? Indians, > particularly Hindus, more particularly traditionally oriented educated > Hindus may have a pull for the 'Vedic' label. Why at all does that label > matter for any customers other than of that category? Why does that label > create magic and wonder?* > ++ people who want massages and who want to feel connected to some > ancient, unbroken lineage. > Like I've already said, and I don't think it matters whether it's an emic > or etic perspective, 'vedic' just like Dominik asserts '5000' is more about > a feeling than anything else, its an appeal to tradition, emotion, > authority and purity. > > But, it does matter. Obviously, because people are attracted to it. Why > not, instead, just call it Thai (yoga) massage, or Thai massage? Because > they are trying to create distinction and carve up a piece of crowded > market place. But I also think that Vedic is a more preferred term by > global yoga consumers as a euphemism, which helps many to digest the > indelible Hindu elements of the worlds they create and consume. But there > are many errors, for instance, with the 5000 yr date for the Bh?gavatam, > just one example. Another is mentioning that many pur?nic gods are vedic. > There is very little appreciation for the historical development from the > Vedic period today, it's just seen as a flatland without many, if any, > contours. Perhaps the time scale and depth and breadth are just too much > for most people. One certainly won't learn much, if at all, about these > complexities in a yoga teacher-training course. Certainly not anything > about the politics of yoga. Instead, one will be told many things, such as > the way in which the hieratic and structural inequalities of caste is > essentialised as simply true. These types of statements are too often > consumed uncritically. For instance, I was once told by a non-Hindu, > American yoga teacher who was visiting an ashram: "the reason there are > shudras is so we can do yoga, someone has to do the cleaning, otherwise > when will we get to do our yoga". There is so much going on in this one > statement. The uncritical support for caste oppression astounds me... One > thing is also for certain is that yoga-teacher trainees will most likely be > told that the pashupatinath seal is undisputed proof of yoga's claims to > antiquity. That is a stretch...as I'm guessing there were many people > sitting cross-legged on the floor 3500years ago. This same claim is made by > a few gurus as well, that because there are figures found in South America, > that this proves that these yogis mentioned above travelled there and gave > 'yoga' to the cultures of South America. Are you suggesting, then, that we > should just not bother with the historical critical method and accept these > truth claims as true, because of someone's misinformed opinion? This sort > of epistemic relativism, combined with the disintellectualisation+cultivation > of affect that underlies the logic of the guru-disciple relationship, plus > the normalising group-think inherent in many social networks creates an > unsustainably toxic situation, in my humble opinion, that leads people to > accept many things as 'true' simply because the guru says it is. > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > JSPS Fellow - Kyoto University > Visiting Fellow - Australian National University > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > Modern Yoga Research > > > > >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Sep 29 06:47:18 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 17 12:17:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanvantari In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just noticed that the internet connection flip-flop caused my sentence get truncated. I wanted to say, in response to your 'but I don't think what you say above matters, does it?' No point to continue the conversation when what one says does not matter for the other. On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Thanks Patrick-ji, for your detailed response(s). > > What an interesting way of defining 'suspension of judgement', > 'privileging the emic perspective' ! > > suspending judgement means not having an argument with someone who has > taken the time to answer my questions; while privileging their perspective > means including it in my narrative. > > No point to continue the conversation > > On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:34 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > >> Dear Nagaraj, >> >> Sorry, but I've been dealing with getting married 2x in two different >> states over the past two weeks to respond. >> Let me respond to your questions. Sorry if it is a bit over the place. >> I've written in a bit of a rush. >> >> * 'within the multi-trillion dollar wellness industry', what is the ratio >> of the 'the global consumption of yoga-inflected lifestyles' ? * >> ++ >> The global wellness industry is valued at about USD 4 trillion and global >> yoga is worth about USD 500billion. This link >> explains the value of >> tourism to India. >> >> >> *Is your current research project focused, among other things, on the >> 'socio, political, economic aspirations of the Indian state through AYUSH >> and MEA' ? * >> ++ yes. I am explicitly interested in the marketing of yoga, wellness and >> mindfulness by AYUSH and MEA and the economic, social and political impacts. >> >> >> >> *Why are you interested in those aspirations? What is so intriguing >> about a state having such aspirations? * >> ++ because they are interesting. I'm intrigued by how different >> narratives are woven together to create 'history', legitimacy and >> authority, particularly when it comes to consumption of yoga within a >> global framework - there are many reconstituted narratives that are used by >> the Indian state and global yoga/wellness to sell commodified spiritual >> tourism to India, which reifies and essentialises many things to create a >> romantic, idealised, sanitized image of yoga and India. How these >> narratives intersect fascinates me. How they are involved in promoting a >> soft hindutva and banal consumption through the global yoga industry are >> interesting. So, you could say i'm mostly interested in how the Indian >> state 'weaponises' yoga in the pursuit of increasing its soft power >> potential. >> >> There are many criticisms levelled at consumers of global yoga: white >> washing and cultural appropriation being the most egregious, but if you >> look at the rhetoric of global yoga and the Indian state, they essentialise >> an image of yoga that will possibly re-enchant worlds using the same 19th >> century tropes. So, it's a bit hard to just go after consumers of yoga, who >> are enticed by the many things, but also the official rhetoric of the India >> state about magical, mystical, sacred, amulya bharat. For instance, the MEA >> says the following >> >> : >> >> +++ >> >> A Brief History and Development of Yoga: >> >> The practice of Yoga is believed to have started with the very dawn of >> civilization. The science of yoga has its origin thousands of years ago, >> long before the first religions or belief systems were born. In the yogic >> lore, Shiva is seen as the first yogi or Adiyogi, and the first Guru or Adi >> Guru. >> >> Several Thousand years ago, on the banks of the lake Kantisarovar in the >> Himalayas, Adiyogi poured his profound knowledge into the legendary >> Saptarishis or "seven sages?. The sages carried this powerful yogic science >> to different parts of the world, including Asia, the Middle East, Northern >> Africa and South America. Interestingly, modern scholars have noted and >> marvelled at the close parallels found between ancient cultures across the >> globe. However, it was in India that the yogic system found its fullest >> expression. Agastya, the Saptarishi who travelled across the Indian >> subcontinent, crafted this culture around a core yogic way of life. >> >> +++ >> >> >> *Do you think 'Vedic Thai Yoga Massage' that claims to be 5000 years old, >> and which also claims this date for the Bh?gavatam, and which explicitly >> states that Dhanvantari is a Vedic god' is part of 'the construction of >> narratives to also suit socio, political, economic aspirations of the >> Indian state through AYUSH and MEA' ?* >> ++yes. I argue that they built upon the official rhetoric of the state, >> which is doing the opposite of decolonising yoga. >> >> *Are you feeling bad that ' there are many people within yogaland who do >> not have any appreciation for historicity, and would prefer for a sense of >> magic and wonder to reenchant their lives.'? In a recent mail, you said, >> " , my remit is to suspend judgement and disbelief, and try to privilege >> the emic perspective." I said, "Do you think Indology centred around >> /rooted in historical critical method and privileging emic perspectives >> that are neither historical nor critical can go hand in hand? **" Here >> is a sample of that mismatch*. >> ++ I have no feeling, either way, towards what people do or not do within >> yogaland. If people do want to live in a magic-fuelled world of >> neo-orientalist imaginings, that's up to them. >> >> It's a good question you raise - but I don't think what you say above >> matters, does it? - are you really trying to say that we should not use the >> historical/critical method? What would you prefer or offer as an >> alternative? As you know, history is complicated. So is what we as >> individuals and groups do with it to create meaning and legitimacy. I'm >> quite happy to listen to what someone believes to be 'true', I'm also happy >> to accept in a subjective relativist way that it's 'true' for them. But >> that doesn't mean we should not fact check and try and understand larger, >> deeper, forces at play, and contextualise things. There are many, many non >> sequiturs that I've endured, patiently, through fieldwork, which are >> beliefs and opinions - suspending judgement means not having an argument >> with someone who has taken the time to answer my questions; while >> privileging their perspective means including it in my narrative. I'm >> honestly not sure how else to go about overriding the mismatch you speak >> of, other than this. >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> >> *Who are the target market of this Vedic Thai Yoga massage ? Why or how >> do they have a respect or attraction for the label 'Vedic' ? Indians, >> particularly Hindus, more particularly traditionally oriented educated >> Hindus may have a pull for the 'Vedic' label. Why at all does that label >> matter for any customers other than of that category? Why does that label >> create magic and wonder?* >> ++ people who want massages and who want to feel connected to some >> ancient, unbroken lineage. >> Like I've already said, and I don't think it matters whether it's an emic >> or etic perspective, 'vedic' just like Dominik asserts '5000' is more about >> a feeling than anything else, its an appeal to tradition, emotion, >> authority and purity. >> >> But, it does matter. Obviously, because people are attracted to it. Why >> not, instead, just call it Thai (yoga) massage, or Thai massage? Because >> they are trying to create distinction and carve up a piece of crowded >> market place. But I also think that Vedic is a more preferred term by >> global yoga consumers as a euphemism, which helps many to digest the >> indelible Hindu elements of the worlds they create and consume. But there >> are many errors, for instance, with the 5000 yr date for the Bh?gavatam, >> just one example. Another is mentioning that many pur?nic gods are vedic. >> There is very little appreciation for the historical development from the >> Vedic period today, it's just seen as a flatland without many, if any, >> contours. Perhaps the time scale and depth and breadth are just too much >> for most people. One certainly won't learn much, if at all, about these >> complexities in a yoga teacher-training course. Certainly not anything >> about the politics of yoga. Instead, one will be told many things, such as >> the way in which the hieratic and structural inequalities of caste is >> essentialised as simply true. These types of statements are too often >> consumed uncritically. For instance, I was once told by a non-Hindu, >> American yoga teacher who was visiting an ashram: "the reason there are >> shudras is so we can do yoga, someone has to do the cleaning, otherwise >> when will we get to do our yoga". There is so much going on in this one >> statement. The uncritical support for caste oppression astounds me... One >> thing is also for certain is that yoga-teacher trainees will most likely be >> told that the pashupatinath seal is undisputed proof of yoga's claims to >> antiquity. That is a stretch...as I'm guessing there were many people >> sitting cross-legged on the floor 3500years ago. This same claim is made by >> a few gurus as well, that because there are figures found in South America, >> that this proves that these yogis mentioned above travelled there and gave >> 'yoga' to the cultures of South America. Are you suggesting, then, that we >> should just not bother with the historical critical method and accept these >> truth claims as true, because of someone's misinformed opinion? This sort >> of epistemic relativism, combined with the disintellectualisation+cultivation >> of affect that underlies the logic of the guru-disciple relationship, plus >> the normalising group-think inherent in many social networks creates an >> unsustainably toxic situation, in my humble opinion, that leads people to >> accept many things as 'true' simply because the guru says it is. >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> JSPS Fellow - Kyoto University >> Visiting Fellow - Australian National University >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> Modern Yoga Research >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra > > BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Sat Sep 30 04:14:42 2017 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 17 04:14:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Shubha Vijaya Dashami1 Message-ID: Dear List, Today is the day of taking all in arms! Shubha Vijaya Dashami to all of you! Best Debabrata Chakrabarti ???This body is like a musical instrument; what you hear depends upon how you play it.??? ??? Anandamayi Ma ???Inside every human being there exists a special heaven, whole and unbroken.??? - Paracelsus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Sat Sep 30 13:29:48 2017 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 17 13:29:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book Message-ID: With apologies for cross-posting, I want to announce a wonderful new book by Upinder Singh: Political Violence in Ancient India. It demolishes the common stereotypes about non-violence etc. Published by Harvard. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674975279 Patrick Olivelle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Sat Sep 30 16:09:05 2017 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 17 12:09:05 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Telugu position at the University of Michigan Message-ID: Dear all, Please take a look at the attached advertisement for an open-rank position at Emory University for Telugu Culture, Literature & History, and share it with all interested individuals. Feel free to forward to any potential candidates. I received the message from Prof. Velcheru Narayana Rao, who is currently serving in that position. Thanks. Suresh. The Department of Middle Eastern and South Asian Studies at Emory University in Atlanta, GA invites applications for the Visweswara Rao and Sita Koppaka Professorship in Telugu Culture, Literature and History. Rank is open. Applicants must have Ph.D. in hand by August, 2018. We seek an interdisciplinary scholar with expertise in Telugu culture, literature, and history, fluency in classical and modern Telugu and proficiency in another Indian language, preferably Sanskrit. The successful applicant will demonstrate an excellent record in scholarship, ability to teach undergraduates, and capacity to guide graduate students inTelugu traditions. The candidate will be expected to help build South Asian studies at Emory generally and to contribute to the core curriculum and programs of the department. Interested candidates should submit a statement of interest, a c.v., two sample course syllabi, a writing sample, and a statement in which the candidate reflects upon his or her experience and vision regarding the teaching and mentorship of students from diverse backgrounds. Candidates should request three recommenders to submit letters on their behalf. All application materials should be submitted via Interfolio: https://apply.interfolio.com/45403 We will start reviewing applications November 7, 2017 and continue until the position is filled. Applications received up to 30 days after review begins will be given full consideration. Emory University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action/Disability/Veteran Employer. Women, minorities, persons with disabilities and veterans are encouraged to apply. All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, disability status, protected veteran status, or any other characteristic protected by law. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TeluguAd9.23.17.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 10864 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Sep 30 16:14:40 2017 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 17 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtJTkRPTE9HWV0ge+CkreCkvuCksOCkpOClgOCkr+CkteCkv+CkpuCljeCkteCkpOCljeCkquCksOCkv+Ckt+CkpOCljX0gVGVsdWd1IHBvc2l0aW9uIGF0IHRoZSBVbml2ZXJzaXR5IG9mIE1pY2hpZ2Fu?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This position is at the Emory University and not at the University of Michigan as the subject line seems to suggest. Madhav Deshpande On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Suresh Kolichala < suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > > Please take a look at the attached advertisement for an open-rank > position at Emory University for Telugu Culture, Literature & History, > and share it with all interested individuals. Feel free to forward to > any potential candidates. > > > I received the message from Prof. Velcheru Narayana Rao, who is currently > serving in that position. > > > Thanks. > > Suresh. > > > The Department of Middle Eastern and South Asian Studies at Emory > University in Atlanta, GA invites applications for the Visweswara Rao and > Sita Koppaka Professorship in Telugu Culture, Literature and History. > Rank is open. Applicants must have Ph.D. in hand by August, 2018. We seek > an interdisciplinary scholar with expertise in Telugu culture, > literature, and history, fluency in classical and modern Telugu and > proficiency in another Indian language, preferably Sanskrit. The successful > applicant will demonstrate an excellent record in scholarship, ability to > teach undergraduates, and capacity to guide graduate students inTelugu traditions. > The candidate will be expected to help build South Asian studies at Emory > generally and to contribute to the core curriculum and programs of the > department. > > > > Interested candidates should submit a statement of interest, a c.v., two > sample course syllabi, a writing sample, and a statement in which the > candidate reflects upon his or her experience and vision regarding the > teaching and mentorship of students from diverse backgrounds. Candidates > should request three recommenders to submit letters on their behalf. All > application materials should be submitted via Interfolio:https://apply. > interfolio.com/45403 > > > > We will start reviewing applications November 7, 2017 and continue until > the position is filled. Applications received up to 30 days after review > begins will be given full consideration. > > > > Emory University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative > Action/Disability/Veteran Employer. Women, minorities, persons with > disabilities and veterans are encouraged to apply. All qualified > applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to > race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national > origin, disability status, protected veteran status, or any other > characteristic protected by law. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "???????????????????" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bvparishat+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bvparishat at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Sat Sep 30 16:18:49 2017 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 17 12:18:49 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Telugu position at the Emory University Message-ID: Dear All, Sorry for the misleading subject of my earlier post. The position is at Emory University in Atlanta, GA (USA), and not at University of Michigan. My apologies, Suresh. Atlanta, GA. On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Suresh Kolichala < suresh.kolichala at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > > Please take a look at the attached advertisement for an open-rank > position at Emory University for Telugu Culture, Literature & History, > and share it with all interested individuals. Feel free to forward to > any potential candidates. > > > I received the message from Prof. Velcheru Narayana Rao, who is currently > serving in that position. > > > Thanks. > > Suresh. > > > The Department of Middle Eastern and South Asian Studies at Emory > University in Atlanta, GA invites applications for the Visweswara Rao and > Sita Koppaka Professorship in Telugu Culture, Literature and History. > Rank is open. Applicants must have Ph.D. in hand by August, 2018. We seek > an interdisciplinary scholar with expertise in Telugu culture, > literature, and history, fluency in classical and modern Telugu and > proficiency in another Indian language, preferably Sanskrit. The successful > applicant will demonstrate an excellent record in scholarship, ability to > teach undergraduates, and capacity to guide graduate students inTelugu traditions. > The candidate will be expected to help build South Asian studies at Emory > generally and to contribute to the core curriculum and programs of the > department. > > > > Interested candidates should submit a statement of interest, a c.v., two > sample course syllabi, a writing sample, and a statement in which the > candidate reflects upon his or her experience and vision regarding the > teaching and mentorship of students from diverse backgrounds. Candidates > should request three recommenders to submit letters on their behalf. All > application materials should be submitted via Interfolio:https://apply. > interfolio.com/45403 > > > > We will start reviewing applications November 7, 2017 and continue until > the position is filled. Applications received up to 30 days after review > begins will be given full consideration. > > > > Emory University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative > Action/Disability/Veteran Employer. Women, minorities, persons with > disabilities and veterans are encouraged to apply. All qualified > applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to > race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, national > origin, disability status, protected veteran status, or any other > characteristic protected by law. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Sep 30 18:25:07 2017 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 17 23:55:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The intro to the book begins with the sentence: "Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru helped create the myth of a nonviolent ancient India while building a modern independence movement on the principle of nonviolence (*ahimsa*)." Even if the statement that these two leaders created the myth of non-violent ancient India can be substantiated through proper documented of where and how they created this myth, I can say with certainty that ancient India was never imagined during or later to the independence movement, either by the educated Indians or by the common public as an India without wars or without harsh punishments or without harsh ways of crime control etc. Wars etc. of ancient India were common place from the lowest level history text books, or the most common sense /layman's /non-professional books on history to the most professional university level books on history. Nationalist historiographers glorified the valour of the ancient Indian kings in their history writings. The legends about sahivaji contain descriptions of Jijiabai teaching young Shivaji , the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata as stories of valour (whereas Anandavardhana looks at the angirasa of these books as S'aanta Rasa and some other authors of poetics, plays or poetry view Ramayana as a book of Karuna Rasa, my teacher views both these books as books of Dharma veera). Even the most ardent followers of Gandhi compared him to Buddha , Buddha now newly known as an epitome of non-violence through the modern history works unlike in the pre-modern Indian literature where he was either an avatar of Vishnu or a vaada poorvapakshin for the Vaidika schools of philosophy. The comparison of Gandhi selectively to Buddha was required only because the remaining picture of ancient India was dominated by the incidence of wars etc. I have to read Sri Upinder Singh's book to be able to say if the book is really an attempt to demolish a non-existent impression of India in the general Indian people. On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Olivelle, J P via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > With apologies for cross-posting, I want to announce a wonderful new book > by Upinder Singh: Political Violence in Ancient India. It demolishes the > common stereotypes about non-violence etc. Published by Harvard. > > http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674975279 > > Patrick Olivelle > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: