Re: [INDOLOGY] Was Aśoka an iconoclast?

Sun May 28 18:35:37 UTC 2017

I am not trying to defend Dr Ambedkar or As'oka. I was just wishing
accuracy in reading the spirit behind the quotes.

Let me now try to make the following observations about he quote:

1. Village deities is a folk cultural aspect or an element of Indian folk
religion. Most of the Indologists are aware of this fact and are aware of
huge number of studies and publications about this. All those who know
about this know that the village deity worship has no involvement of
Brahmins. Typically traditionally a village deity's temple has only a
non-Brahmin preist, as per the customs a female priest, rfrom communities
such as potters or washermen. The festival time priest for these deities
hails from a sub-caste of the tanner-cobbler caste. Brahmins being
mentioned as associated with village deities in the quote is contradicting
these facts.

2. What Dr Ambedkar meant by 'national deities' here is not clear to me.

3. Family deities probably is an English translation of kula devataas. In
today's 'Hinduism', these deities come either from folk or classical
tradition. Usually the rituals associated are at family level only.Unless
it is an elaborate ritual to a classical family deity, Brahmins are not
involved. Women themselves with a women group participation perform the
worship rituals.

4. Whether there is an inscriptional evidence for this queens involving
Brahmins for the worship of these deities or not, there are very clear
evidences for the S'aatavaahana women donating to Buddhist monks while the
same inscription mentioning the king to be such a staunch Vaidika that he
performed 100 Vaajapeya yaagas.

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear colleagues,
>
> Can you help me where I used the 'might have' expression?
>
>  >His Edicts are routinely decontextualized. Dr. Ambedkar's statement, re:
> removal of idols, is a good example of such practice.
>
> -- Where in the quoted words of Dr Ambedkar is there a mention of any
> Asoka's edicts. Where is the indication in the quote that it is about
> edicts?
>
> At the most, Dr Ambedkar's words in the quote can be argued as making
> statements without providing a supporting a historical evidence.
>
> If it is established through historical evidences conclusively that Asoka
> did not remove deities or their idols, then the quote from Dr Ambedkar can
> be described as 'falsification of historical evidence'.
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> As far as I am concerned, falsification of historical evidence should be
>> called by its proper term. .
>>
>> There is a difference between "he might have been" and "he was".
>>
>> Aśoka's person is an object of sanctification, whatever the reasons
>> behind it. His Edicts are routinely decontextualized. Dr. Ambedkar's
>> statement, re: removal of idols, is a good example of such practice.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Artur K.
>>
>> 2017-05-28 5:28 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Artur-ji,
>>>
>>> Dr Ambedkar's
>>>
>>>  Asoka said, "As I venerate the Buddha, the Enlightened One, there is no
>>> need to worship any other deity"
>>>
>>> need not be taken too literally Asoka said it in so many words in an
>>> edict or such document.
>>>
>>> It is just a narration style, communicating the intention of a character
>>> behind his actions  in the narrative by describing as though he expressed
>>> the intention. So looking for an edict or such document with these words or
>>> asking for such a document may not be a fruitful exercise.
>>>
>>> You say,
>>>
>>> "The question of 'the emergence of images and idols in India" apart
>>> what can be seen here is an example of falsification of historical record,
>>> done purposefully, with political agenda in mind."
>>>
>>> What do you think is the agenda ?
>>>
>>> To me, it all seems to be simple : 1. Whether the quoted words indicate
>>> replacement of older deities with Buddha, the Enlightened one or removal of
>>> idols is not clear.
>>>
>>> If the qoted words are to be interpreted as indicating removal of idols,
>>> then the logic is :  Dr Ambedkar was opposed to idol worship. He liked
>>> Buddhism and Asoka. He thought his favorites Buddhism and Asoka were also
>>> like himself opposed to idol worship.
>>>
>>> 2. Dr Ambedkar's focus was on how Brahmin influence on State affairs,
>>> alleged and theorized by him as the result of belief of queens in Village
>>> deities etc., was reduced from the time of Asoka.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Matthew,
>>>>
>>>> >> Asoka after embracing Buddhism discontinued this practice and
>>>> removed the idols of such deities.
>>>>
>>>> The meanig of the sentence is clear. According to Dr. Ambedkar Aśoka
>>>> 'removed the idols of such deities'.
>>>>
>>>> Removed - gently?
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that no edict mentions Aśoka stating:  "As I venerate
>>>> the Buddha, the Enlightened One, there is no need to worship any other
>>>> deity".
>>>>
>>>> The question of 'the emergence of images and idols in India" apart what
>>>> can be seen here is an example of falsification of historical record, done
>>>> purposefully, with political agenda in mind.
>>>>
>>>> Artur
>>>>
>>>> 2017-05-26 18:21 GMT+02:00 Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea about just what Dr. Ambedkar may have had in mind in
>>>>> regard to Asoka,
>>>>> but I do think that the question of the emergence of images and idols
>>>>> in India should be empirically focused.
>>>>>
>>>>> See, for instance, Michael Willis,
>>>>> The Archeology of Hindu Ritual: Temples and the Establishment of the
>>>>> Gods (Cambridge 2009).
>>>>>
>>>>> Although Willis prudently avoids the question of beginnings, some
>>>>> interesting suggestions may be gleaned
>>>>> from section 2.7 "From Private Sacrifice to Public Spectacle," pp.
>>>>> 113-122.
>>>>>
>>>>> One may also wish to consult, for evidence of deity-worship in early
>>>>> Buddhism, Robert DeCaroli,
>>>>> Haunting the Buddha: Indian Popular Religion and the Formation of
>>>>> Buddhism (OUP 2004).
>>>>>
>>>>> Matthew
>>>>>
>>>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>>>> Directeur d'études,
>>>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>>>>
>>>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>>>> The University of Chicago
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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