From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 04:19:28 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 09:49:28 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether different big story. 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness. 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them. 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: which has 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? - ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment 'derivation'. 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. Thanks for your patience. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Herman Tull wrote: > There is a lovely (short) scene in the newly released documentary, > Gurukulam (http://www.gurukulamfilm.com/) that shows this ritual sequence > of events (bowing to the floor, touching of the ears). > > Herman Tull > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, stella sandahl > wrote: > >> Dear Madhav and Patrick, >> I understood that touching the ground first is also part of the "ritual", >> not just the ears. >> Best to all >> Stella >> >> On Oct 30, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> Take a look at the attached page (28) from Lanman's Sanskrit Reader, >> line 2 from bottom. >> >> Madhav >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Olivelle, J P >> wrote: >> >>> A colleague asked me about the practice of holding one?s ear, especially >>> in asking forgiveness. Are there textual sources for it? I have seen this >>> practice in texts, but cannot find them right now. If, off the top of your >>> heads, you can find one, do let me know. Thanks. >>> >>> Patrick >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >> >> >> __________________________ >> _____________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 09:28:44 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 14:58:44 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether *a* different big story. 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the *ear of the *left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than *that of *asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the back of the palms* ,*with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the *ear of the * left ear with the right hand and vice versa is part of the ritual *of * considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness. 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them. 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: which has 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? - ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar -punishment to self-punishment- 'derivation'. 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. Thanks for your patience. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If > it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether > different big story. > > 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. > It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north > India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's > own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has > many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which > case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. > > 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. > This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self > introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience > rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . > In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with > the tips of the fingers facing upwards. > > 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is > part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is > performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this > gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for > forgiveness. > > 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or > rituals employing them. > > 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga > namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for > forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. > > 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are > different, I am providing this link > to > a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: > > which has > > > 15) ?????????? :- > > ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? > ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? > ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? > ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? > ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? > > 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? > ??? ?? - > ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? > ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? > ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? > ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) > > 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without > criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of > pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series > of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment > 'derivation'. > > 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a > different semiotic 'derivation'. > > > Thanks for your patience. > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Herman Tull wrote: > >> There is a lovely (short) scene in the newly released documentary, >> Gurukulam (http://www.gurukulamfilm.com/) that shows this ritual >> sequence of events (bowing to the floor, touching of the ears). >> >> Herman Tull >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, stella sandahl >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Madhav and Patrick, >>> I understood that touching the ground first is also part of the >>> "ritual", not just the ears. >>> Best to all >>> Stella >>> >>> On Oct 30, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>> Take a look at the attached page (28) from Lanman's Sanskrit >>> Reader, line 2 from bottom. >>> >>> Madhav >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Olivelle, J P >>> wrote: >>> >>>> A colleague asked me about the practice of holding one?s ear, >>>> especially in asking forgiveness. Are there textual sources for it? I have >>>> seen this practice in texts, but cannot find them right now. If, off the >>>> top of your heads, you can find one, do let me know. Thanks. >>>> >>>> Patrick >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> __________________________ >>> _____________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Nov 1 13:29:13 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 13:29:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7688D197-5801-4BFE-929B-5D4C84F67AA1@austin.utexas.edu> Thank you very much for this interesting and detailed information. Patrick On Nov 1, 2016, at 4:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether a different big story. 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than that of asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the back of the palms ,with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness. 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them. 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: which has 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? - ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar -punishment to self-punishment- 'derivation'. 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. Thanks for your patience. [https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif] On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether different big story. 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness. 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them. 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: which has 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? - ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment 'derivation'. 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. Thanks for your patience. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Herman Tull > wrote: There is a lovely (short) scene in the newly released documentary, Gurukulam (http://www.gurukulamfilm.com/) that shows this ritual sequence of events (bowing to the floor, touching of the ears). Herman Tull On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, stella sandahl > wrote: Dear Madhav and Patrick, I understood that touching the ground first is also part of the "ritual", not just the ears. Best to all Stella On Oct 30, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Dear Patrick, Take a look at the attached page (28) from Lanman's Sanskrit Reader, line 2 from bottom. Madhav On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Olivelle, J P > wrote: A colleague asked me about the practice of holding one?s ear, especially in asking forgiveness. Are there textual sources for it? I have seen this practice in texts, but cannot find them right now. If, off the top of your heads, you can find one, do let me know. Thanks. Patrick _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 1 14:26:06 2016 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (stella sandahl) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 10:26:06 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8E1688A6-2D42-49C2-9708-989FA840CE54@sympatico.ca> Many thanks for this interesting and detailed information. Most illuminating. But I don't understand your point 8: How does one rotate around oneself? Best Stella Sandahl On Nov 1, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : > > What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether a different big story. > > 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. > > 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than that of asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the back of the palms ,with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. > > 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness. > > 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them. > > 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. > > 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: > > which has > > 15) ?????????? :- > ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? > ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? > ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? > ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? > ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? > 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? - > > ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) > 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar -punishment to self-punishment- 'derivation'. > > 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. > > Thanks for your patience. > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether different big story. > > 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. > > 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. > > 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness. > > 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them. > > 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. > > 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: > > which has > > 15) ?????????? :- > ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? > ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? > ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? > ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? > ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? > 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? - > > ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) > 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment 'derivation'. > > 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. > > Thanks for your patience. > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Herman Tull wrote: > There is a lovely (short) scene in the newly released documentary, Gurukulam (http://www.gurukulamfilm.com/) that shows this ritual sequence of events (bowing to the floor, touching of the ears). > > Herman Tull > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, stella sandahl wrote: > Dear Madhav and Patrick, > I understood that touching the ground first is also part of the "ritual", not just the ears. > Best to all > Stella > > On Oct 30, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> Dear Patrick, >> >> Take a look at the attached page (28) from Lanman's Sanskrit Reader, line 2 from bottom. >> >> Madhav >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Olivelle, J P wrote: >> A colleague asked me about the practice of holding one?s ear, especially in asking forgiveness. Are there textual sources for it? I have seen this practice in texts, but cannot find them right now. If, off the top of your heads, you can find one, do let me know. Thanks. >> >> Patrick >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Tue Nov 1 15:24:32 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 16:24:32 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] advertisement: full professorship of Indology at LMU Munich Message-ID: <5818B3B0.6090902@uni-muenchen.de> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LMU_Indologyfullprofessor.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 48238 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pankajaindia at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 15:42:13 2016 From: pankajaindia at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?UGFua2FqIEphaW4g4KSq4KSC4KSV4KScIOCknOCliOCkqA==?=) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 10:42:13 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Encyclopedia of Indian Religions | vol. on Hinduism and Tribal Religions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues Happy Diwali and Hope this message finds you well. We want to invite you to join an exciting project under the leadership of Professor Arvind Sharma: Encyclopedia of Indian Religion ( http://www.springer.com/series/15157) The Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism sections are already in production: https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Jainism-Encyclopedia-Indian-Religions/dp/ 9402408517 For Hinduism section, we are aiming for covering 300 topics overall (750,000 words approximately) of the below, varying lengths: ? Short Entries: 1000 ? 2000 words ? Medium Entries: 3000 ? 5000 words ? Long Entries: 10000 words Attached is the current list of overdue and unassigned topics for your review and a possible starting point. Since the planned publication date is summer 2018, we are aiming for all submissions to be received by December 2017. Let me know your thoughts. I?d be happy to discuss further over a call, if you prefer. Best, Pankaj ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- Dr. Pankaj Jain ???? ??? Associate Professor Dept of Philosophy and Religion Dept of Anthropology Co-chair, India Initiative Group University of North Texas Tel: 940-369-8126 [image: h, source icon] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cchl2 at cam.ac.uk Tue Nov 1 17:23:57 2016 From: cchl2 at cam.ac.uk (Charles Li) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 17:23:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_colloquium_at_the_University_of_Cambridge_on_v=C4=81ky=C4=81rtha?= Message-ID: Dear everyone, You are cordially invited to a one-day colloquium on 11 November, 2016, at the Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, University of Cambridge, entitled "From Word Meanings to Sentence Meaning: Different Perspectives in Indian Philosophy of Language". The reflection on language and its structures was a major component of the Sanskritic intellectual horizon, intimately connected with the broader epistemological and soteriological concerns of different schools. This led to the emergence of various conflicting philosophical views on the nature of the cognition obtained from language (??bdabodha). In this respect, a pivotal issue is how pad?rthas (the meanings/referents of words) relate to v?ky?rtha (the meaning/referent of the sentence). During this one-day colloquium, the focus will especially be on the views set forth by the P?rva-M?m??s? philosophers (Bh???a and Pr?bh?kara), the Buddhists, the Grammarians, and the theoreticians of Ala?k?ra??stra, and on the reconstruction of the debate as it developed in the course of the first millennium CE. For more information, please see the attached poster and colloquium programme. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nov11-poster-small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 689441 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ColloquiumProgramme.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 226497 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu Tue Nov 1 17:56:42 2016 From: Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 17:56:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? Thank you, Michael ?? Michael Slouber Assistant Professor of South Asia Department of Liberal Studies Western Washington University From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 18:32:19 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 00:02:19 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: <8E1688A6-2D42-49C2-9708-989FA840CE54@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: https://youtu.be/isTVFCIPGlI On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:56 PM, stella sandahl wrote: > Many thanks for this interesting and detailed information. Most > illuminating. > But I don't understand your point 8: How does one rotate around oneself? > Best > Stella Sandahl > > On Nov 1, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to > take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be > horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : > > What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If > it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether *a* different > big story. > > 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. > It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north > India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's > own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has > many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which > case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. > > 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the *ear of the *left ear with the right hand and vice > versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for > self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of > obedience rather than *that of *asking for forgiveness. The gesture too > is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the > back of the palms* ,*with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. > > 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the *ear of the * left ear with the right hand and vice > versa is part of the ritual *of * considered to be typical of Ganesha > worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. > But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing > asking for forgiveness. > > 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or > rituals employing them. > > 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga > namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for > forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. > > 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are > different, I am providing this link > to > a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: > > which has > > > 15) ?????????? :- > > ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? > ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? > ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? > ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? > ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? > > 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? > ??? ?? - > ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? > ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? > ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? > ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) > > 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without > criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of > pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series > of sit-stand movements too has a similar -punishment to self-punishment- > 'derivation'. > > 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a > different semiotic 'derivation'. > > > > Thanks for your patience. > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If >> it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether >> different big story. >> >> 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. >> It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north >> India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's >> own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has >> many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which >> case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. >> >> 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the >> lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. >> This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self >> introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience >> rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . >> In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with >> the tips of the fingers facing upwards. >> >> 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the >> lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is >> part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is >> performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this >> gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for >> forgiveness. >> >> 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or >> rituals employing them. >> >> 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga >> namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for >> forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. >> >> 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness >> are different, I am providing this link >> to >> a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: >> >> which has >> >> >> 15) ?????????? :- >> >> ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? >> ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? >> ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? >> ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? >> ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? >> ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? >> ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? >> ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? >> >> 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? >> ??? ?? - >> ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? >> ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? >> ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? >> ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) >> >> 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without >> criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of >> pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series >> of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment >> 'derivation'. >> >> 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a >> different semiotic 'derivation'. >> >> >> Thanks for your patience. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Herman Tull >> wrote: >> >>> There is a lovely (short) scene in the newly released documentary, >>> Gurukulam (http://www.gurukulamfilm.com/) that shows this ritual >>> sequence of events (bowing to the floor, touching of the ears). >>> >>> Herman Tull >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, stella sandahl >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Madhav and Patrick, >>>> I understood that touching the ground first is also part of the >>>> "ritual", not just the ears. >>>> Best to all >>>> Stella >>>> >>>> On Oct 30, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>> >>>> Take a look at the attached page (28) from Lanman's Sanskrit >>>> Reader, line 2 from bottom. >>>> >>>> Madhav >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Olivelle, J P >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> A colleague asked me about the practice of holding one?s ear, >>>>> especially in asking forgiveness. Are there textual sources for it? I have >>>>> seen this practice in texts, but cannot find them right now. If, off the >>>>> top of your heads, you can find one, do let me know. Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Patrick >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________ >>>> _____________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 18:57:06 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 00:27:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Did you see the video? It is called aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara > How does one rotate around oneself? ---- Just for fun, let me say, just as the earth rotates around its own axis. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > https://youtu.be/isTVFCIPGlI > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:56 PM, stella sandahl > wrote: > >> Many thanks for this interesting and detailed information. Most >> illuminating. >> But I don't understand your point 8: How does one rotate around oneself? >> Best >> Stella Sandahl >> >> On Nov 1, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >> Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to >> take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be >> horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : >> >> What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If >> it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether >> *a* different big story. >> >> 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. >> It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north >> India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's >> own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has >> many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which >> case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. >> >> 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the >> lower tip of the *ear of the *left ear with the right hand and vice >> versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for >> self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of >> obedience rather than *that of *asking for forgiveness. The gesture too >> is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the >> back of the palms* ,*with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. >> >> 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the >> lower tip of the *ear of the * left ear with the right hand and vice >> versa is part of the ritual *of * considered to be typical of Ganesha >> worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. >> But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing >> asking for forgiveness. >> >> 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or >> rituals employing them. >> >> 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga >> namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for >> forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. >> >> 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness >> are different, I am providing this link >> to >> a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: >> >> which has >> >> >> 15) ?????????? :- >> >> ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? >> ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? >> ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? >> ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? >> ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? >> ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? >> ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? >> ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? >> >> 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? >> ??? ?? - >> ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? >> ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? >> ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? >> ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) >> >> 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without >> criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of >> pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series >> of sit-stand movements too has a similar -punishment to self-punishment- >> 'derivation'. >> >> 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a >> different semiotic 'derivation'. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your patience. >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >>> What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If >>> it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether >>> different big story. >>> >>> 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. >>> It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north >>> India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's >>> own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has >>> many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which >>> case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. >>> >>> 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the >>> lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. >>> This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self >>> introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience >>> rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . >>> In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with >>> the tips of the fingers facing upwards. >>> >>> 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the >>> lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is >>> part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is >>> performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this >>> gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for >>> forgiveness. >>> >>> 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or >>> rituals employing them. >>> >>> 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga >>> namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for >>> forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. >>> >>> 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness >>> are different, I am providing this link >>> to >>> a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: >>> >>> which has >>> >>> >>> 15) ?????????? :- >>> >>> ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? >>> ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? >>> ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? >>> ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? >>> ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? >>> ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? >>> ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? >>> ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? >>> >>> 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? >>> ??? ?? - >>> ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? >>> ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? >>> ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? >>> ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) >>> >>> 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without >>> criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of >>> pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series >>> of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment >>> 'derivation'. >>> >>> 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a >>> different semiotic 'derivation'. >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your patience. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Herman Tull >>> wrote: >>> >>>> There is a lovely (short) scene in the newly released documentary, >>>> Gurukulam (http://www.gurukulamfilm.com/) that shows this ritual >>>> sequence of events (bowing to the floor, touching of the ears). >>>> >>>> Herman Tull >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM, stella sandahl >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Madhav and Patrick, >>>>> I understood that touching the ground first is also part of the >>>>> "ritual", not just the ears. >>>>> Best to all >>>>> Stella >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 30, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Madhav Deshpande >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Patrick, >>>>> >>>>> Take a look at the attached page (28) from Lanman's Sanskrit >>>>> Reader, line 2 from bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Madhav >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Olivelle, J P >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A colleague asked me about the practice of holding one?s ear, >>>>>> especially in asking forgiveness. Are there textual sources for it? I have >>>>>> seen this practice in texts, but cannot find them right now. If, off the >>>>>> top of your heads, you can find one, do let me know. Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________________________ >>>>> _____________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 18:58:18 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 00:28:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rudrama Devi of Kakatiya Dynasty is from the same 13th Century. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:26 PM, Michael Slouber wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana > in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more > recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? > > Thank you, > > Michael > > ?? > Michael Slouber > Assistant Professor of South Asia > Department of Liberal Studies > Western Washington University > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corinnawessels at yahoo.de Tue Nov 1 19:54:53 2016 From: corinnawessels at yahoo.de (Corinna Wessels-Mevissen) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 19:54:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <31097682.4214526.1478030093152@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Prof. Paturi and other colleagues, I wonder whether the worshippers' rolling on the ground during South Indian processions may be related to the rite we are discussing or not (see first photo): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3740285/That-s-roll-Thousands-Hindu-devotees-gather-West-London-chariot-procession.html The act of rotating while standing I have observed many times in Tamil Nadu, when it appeared to me as a substitute for a 'real' pradak?i?? around a deity, which the worshipper was not able to perform at that particular time. Does this come under ?tmapradak?i?? namask?ra / k?am?y?can?? Best, Corinna Wessels-Mevissen Von: Nagaraj Paturi An: stella sandahl CC: Indology Gesendet: 19:57 Dienstag, 1.November 2016 Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ear Did you see the video? It is called aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara > How does one rotate around oneself? ---- Just for fun, let me say, just as the earth rotates around its own axis. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: https://youtu.be/isTVFCIPGlI On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:56 PM, stella sandahl wrote: Many thanks for this interesting and detailed information. Most illuminating.But I don't understand your point 8: How does one rotate around oneself?BestStella Sandahl On Nov 1, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether?a?different big story. ?1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual?as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily?speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. ?2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the? left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of?hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than that of ?asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the back of the palms ,with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. ?3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the????left ear with the right hand and vice versa?is part of the ritual of??considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness.??4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them.??5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other.??6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link?to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual:??which has? 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? -??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????)? 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar? -punishment to self-punishment- 'derivation'.??8. Rotating around oneself is also part of????????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. ? Thanks for your patience. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether different big story. ?1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual?as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily?speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. ?2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the?left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of?hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. ?3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the?left ear with the right hand and vice versa?is part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness.??4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them.??5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other.??6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link?to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual:??which has? 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? -??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????)? 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment 'derivation'.? 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of????????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. Thanks for your patience -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Tue Nov 1 21:06:37 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 14:06:37 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7e7d8714-03b7-039c-8018-c9aedfaea726@berkeley.edu> Nagaraj, > It is called aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara > > > How does one rotate around oneself? > > ---- Just for fun, let me say, just as the earth rotates around its > own axis. Only that the Earth spins in the opposite direction. The/pradak?i?a/ imitates the Sun's apparent movement around the Earth. But you make your point. Regards, Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Nov 1 21:50:39 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 16 11:50:39 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also the tenth-century ruler of Kashmir Didd?. (Interestingly she often referred to herself in the masculine, and I believe the K?katiya queen mentioned did so too.)Not sure if she is the very first though. Best,J On Nov 1, 2016 8:59 AM, "Nagaraj Paturi" wrote: > Rudrama Devi of Kakatiya Dynasty is from the same 13th Century. > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:26 PM, Michael Slouber > wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana >> in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more >> recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Michael >> >> ?? >> Michael Slouber >> Assistant Professor of South Asia >> Department of Liberal Studies >> Western Washington University >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu Wed Nov 2 00:41:43 2016 From: kmcgrath at fas.harvard.edu (McGrath, Kevin) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 00:41:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JHANSI IS THE ONLY ONE WHOM I KNOW OF, AND SHE IS LATE ... K. ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jesse Knutson Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 5:50:39 PM To: Nagaraj Paturi Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign Also the tenth-century ruler of Kashmir Didd?. (Interestingly she often referred to herself in the masculine, and I believe the K?katiya queen mentioned did so too.)Not sure if she is the very first though. Best,J On Nov 1, 2016 8:59 AM, "Nagaraj Paturi" > wrote: Rudrama Devi of Kakatiya Dynasty is from the same 13th Century. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:26 PM, Michael Slouber > wrote: Dear colleagues, Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria's 1966 book? Thank you, Michael -- Michael Slouber Assistant Professor of South Asia Department of Liberal Studies Western Washington University _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsalomon at uw.edu Wed Nov 2 01:06:03 2016 From: rsalomon at uw.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 12:06:03 +1100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to recall that there was an excursus on queens in traditional India in O. von Hinueber's book on the Palola Shahis, but I don't have a copy at hand. Rich Salomon On 11/2/2016 4:56 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? > > Thank you, > > Michael > > ?? > Michael Slouber > Assistant Professor of South Asia > Department of Liberal Studies > Western Washington University > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From jwn3y at eservices.virginia.edu Wed Nov 2 01:25:37 2016 From: jwn3y at eservices.virginia.edu (Nemec, John William (nemec) (jwn3y)) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 01:25:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No one has mentioned Queen DiddA, who reigned in 980-1003 A.D./C.E. in Kashmir, according to Kalha.a/Stein's dating. See the 6th taraGga. I think she also briefly ascended to the throne prior to this, as well, again according to Kalha.na. She is also known from the numismatic evidence; Cunningham records exemplars of her coinage, which was heavily alloyed. I've always just assumed there were other, earlier queens, and would be interested to know more. I'll look up the reference Rich gives us but hope others chime in. John Nemec ________________________________________ From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Richard Salomon [rsalomon at uw.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 9:08 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign I seem to recall that there was an excursus on queens in traditional India in O. von Hinueber's book on the Palola Shahis, but I don't have a copy at hand. Rich Salomon On 11/2/2016 4:56 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? > > Thank you, > > Michael > > ?? > Michael Slouber > Assistant Professor of South Asia > Department of Liberal Studies > Western Washington University > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 05:10:39 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 10:40:39 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Corinna Wessels-Mevissen, Yes, what you observed as 'rotating while standing' is aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara only. But it is not done as a substitute for pradakshiNA which is usually translated as 'circumambulation' (I suspect that the translation is borrowed from some ritual-describing Latin-origin term used in some religion outside Hinduism-Buddhism complex. An online dictionary gives the reference as "Circumambulate the city of a dreamy Sabbath afternoon" (Herman Melville).) pradakshiNA is a clockwise rotation around a sanctum sanctorum or temple or a sacred hill or any other such sacred object. In north India the word parikramA is used more often in this sense. This is a form of 'paying respect', 'expressing love of the intense inseparability' ( A circle is formed when an object is pulled perpetually by a center ) , dependence etc. There is an occult semiotics too associated with rotating an object around another object. In this aspect, the rotated object is believed to collect positive or negative supernatural power occupying / possessing the central object. For example, this is done as an evil eye removing magic in which the evil eye removing material is rotated around the 'evil eye affected' person and the rotation is believed to collect the (evil spirit of) evil eye and store it in itself. Throwing away this material is believed to send away the (evil spirit of) evil eye. If this semiotics is applied to pradakshiNaa the act is seen as collecting the 'positive' power occupying / possessing the central object, a prANa pratishThita or svayambhU deity in the sanctum sanctorum or temple or occupying / possessing a sacred hill or any other such sacred object by the circumambulating person. AtmapradakshiNA usually is associated with the reciting or chanting the following mantra: ???? ???? ? ?????? ????????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????????? ????????? ??? ??? ? This shows that the associated belief is rotation around oneself (Atma = self) is a pApa-buster. Again, the 'occult' semiotics here is that the spirit possessed object when rotates /made to rotate around itself, the spirit is flushed out of the object. Rolling on the floor is a different story. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Corinna Wessels-Mevissen via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Corinna Wessels-Mevissen > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > Cc: > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:54:53 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ear > Dear Prof. Paturi and other colleagues, > > I wonder whether the worshippers' rolling on the ground during South > Indian processions may be related to the rite we are discussing or not (see > first photo): > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3740285/That-s- > roll-Thousands-Hindu-devotees-gather-West-London-chariot-procession.html > > The act of rotating while standing I have observed many times in Tamil > Nadu, when it appeared to me as a substitute for a 'real' pradak?i?? around > a deity, which the worshipper was not able to perform at that particular > time. Does this come under ?tmapradak?i?? namask?ra / k?am?y?can?? > > Best, > Corinna Wessels-Mevissen > > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* Nagaraj Paturi > *An:* stella sandahl > *CC:* Indology > *Gesendet:* 19:57 Dienstag, 1.November 2016 > *Betreff:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ear > > Did you see the video? > > It is called aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara > > > How does one rotate around oneself? > > ---- Just for fun, let me say, just as the earth rotates around its own > axis. > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > https://youtu.be/isTVFCIPGlI > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:56 PM, stella sandahl > wrote: > > Many thanks for this interesting and detailed information. Most > illuminating. > But I don't understand your point 8: How does one rotate around oneself? > Best > Stella Sandahl > > On Nov 1, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to > take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be > horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : > > What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If > it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether *a* different > big story. > > 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. > It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north > India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's > own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has > many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which > case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. > > 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the *ear of the *left ear with the right hand and vice > versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for > self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of > obedience rather than *that of *asking for forgiveness. The gesture too > is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the > back of the palms* ,*with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. > > 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the *ear of the * left ear with the right hand and vice > versa is part of the ritual *of * considered to be typical of Ganesha > worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. > But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing > asking for forgiveness. > > 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or > rituals employing them. > > 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga > namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for > forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. > > 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are > different, I am providing this link > to > a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: > > which has > > > 15) ?????????? :- > > ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? > ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? > ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? > ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? > ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? > 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? > ??? ?? - > ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? > ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? > ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? > ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) > > 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without > criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of > pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series > of sit-stand movements too has a similar -punishment to self-punishment- > 'derivation'. > > 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a > different semiotic 'derivation'. > > > > Thanks for your patience. > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If > it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether > different big story. > > 1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual as part of worship of a deity. > It is a gesture as part of daily speech adopted into the ritual. In north > India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's > own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has > many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which > case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. > > 2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa. > This is similar to the criss-crossing of hands by a Vaidika male for self > introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience > rather than asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . > In the self introduction the ear is closed with the back of the palm with > the tips of the fingers facing upwards. > > 3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the > lower tip of the ear of the left ear with the right hand and vice versa is > part of the ritual of considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is > performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this > gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for > forgiveness. > > 4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or > rituals employing them. > > 5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga > namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for > forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other. > > 6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are > different, I am providing this link > to > a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual: > > which has > > > 15) ?????????? :- > > ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? > ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? > ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? > ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? > ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? > ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? > ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? > 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? > ??? ?? - > ??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? > ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? > ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? > ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????) > > 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without > criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of > pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series > of sit-stand movements too has a similar punishment to self-punishment > 'derivation'. > > 8. Rotating around oneself is also part of ??????????. But it has a > different semiotic 'derivation'. > > > Thanks for your patience > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi Wed Nov 2 09:02:57 2016 From: klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 11:02:57 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6FBA3B6D-D208-4589-8E37-A5410B26C666@helsinki.fi> Rich, your memory is right, the section is on p. 118ff. The earliest case he mentions is V?k??aka Queen Prabh?vat? Gupta (until 443 CE) and he also lists a number of other cases. Discussing the legal background, he refers to Kane 3, 40, Artha??stra 5, 6, 34 and Raghuva??a 19, 57. Best, Klaus Klaus Karttunen South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Asian and African Studies, Department of World Cultures PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)2941 4482418 Fax +358-(0)2941 22094 Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi > On 02 Nov 2016, at 03:06, Richard Salomon wrote: > > I seem to recall that there was an excursus on queens in traditional > India in O. von Hinueber's book on the Palola Shahis, but I don't have a > copy at hand. > > Rich Salomon > > > On 11/2/2016 4:56 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Michael >> >> ?? >> Michael Slouber >> Assistant Professor of South Asia >> Department of Liberal Studies >> Western Washington University >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Nov 2 10:12:47 2016 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 10:12:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1478047366.S.15133.2557.f4-235-216.1478081567.8981@webmail.rediffmail.com> Yes,Rani Laksmi Bai ruled Jhansi during the days of Sepoy Mutiny, .... But she was not the earliest. ,...not THE FIRST FEMALE SOVEREIGN. ALAKENDU DAS. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corinnawessels at yahoo.de Wed Nov 2 11:11:37 2016 From: corinnawessels at yahoo.de (Corinna Wessels-Mevissen) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 11:11:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1693049187.516819.1478085097181@mail.yahoo.com> (Sub-topic: rotation of the body)Dear Nagaraj Paturi, Thank you so much for your explicit and enlightening reply! I also studied the concept of the evil eye (d???i) a few years ago, to some extent. Therefore, your excursus is a welcome update for me in this respect, too. With regards, Corinna Von: Nagaraj Paturi An: Corinna Wessels-Mevissen CC: "indology at list.indology.info" Gesendet: 6:10 Mittwoch, 2.November 2016 Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ear Dear Prof. Corinna Wessels-Mevissen, Yes, what you observed as 'rotating while standing' is aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara only. But it is not done as a substitute for pradakshiNA which is usually translated as 'circumambulation' (I suspect that the translation is borrowed from some ritual-describing Latin-origin term?used in some religion outside Hinduism-Buddhism complex. An online dictionary gives the reference as? "Circumambulate the city of a dreamy Sabbath afternoon" (Herman Melville).)? pradakshiNA is a clockwise rotation around a sanctum sanctorum or temple or a sacred hill or any other such sacred object. In north India the word parikramA is used more often in this sense.? This is a form of 'paying respect', 'expressing love of the intense inseparability' ( A circle is formed when an object is pulled perpetually by a center ) , dependence etc.? There is an occult semiotics too?associated with rotating an object around another object. In this aspect, the rotated object is believed to collect positive or negative supernatural power occupying / possessing the central object. For example, this is done as an evil eye removing magic in which the evil eye removing material?is rotated around the 'evil eye affected' person and the rotation is believed to collect the (evil spirit of) evil eye?and store it in itself. Throwing away this material is believed to send away the (evil spirit of) evil eye. If this semiotics is applied to pradakshiNaa the act is seen as collecting the 'positive' power occupying / possessing the central object, a prANa pratishThita or svayambhU deity in the sanctum sanctorum or temple or occupying / possessing a sacred hill or any other such sacred object by the circumambulating person. AtmapradakshiNA usually is associated with the reciting or chanting the following mantra: ???? ???? ? ?????? ????????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????????? ????????? ??? ??? ? This shows that the associated belief is rotation around oneself (Atma = self) is a pApa-buster. Again, the 'occult' semiotics here is that the spirit possessed object when rotates /made to rotate around itself, the spirit is flushed out of the object. Rolling on the floor is a different story. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Corinna Wessels-Mevissen via INDOLOGY wrote: ______________________________ _________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology. info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From:?Corinna Wessels-Mevissen To:?"indology at list.indology.info" Cc:? Date:?Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:54:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject:?Re: [INDOLOGY] Ear Dear Prof. Paturi and other colleagues, I wonder whether the worshippers' rolling on the ground during South Indian processions may be related to the rite we are discussing or not (see first photo): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ news/article-3740285/That-s- roll-Thousands-Hindu-devotees- gather-West-London-chariot- procession.html The act of rotating while standing I have observed many times in Tamil Nadu, when it appeared to me as a substitute for a 'real' pradak?i?? around a deity, which the worshipper was not able to perform at that particular time. Does this come under ?tmapradak?i?? namask?ra / k?am?y?can?? Best, Corinna Wessels-Mevissen Von: Nagaraj Paturi An: stella sandahl CC: Indology Gesendet: 19:57 Dienstag, 1.November 2016 Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ear Did you see the video? It is called aatmapradakshiNa namaskaara > How does one rotate around oneself? ---- Just for fun, let me say, just as the earth rotates around its own axis. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: https://youtu.be/isTVFCIPGlI On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:56 PM, stella sandahl wrote: Many thanks for this interesting and detailed information. Most illuminating.But I don't understand your point 8: How does one rotate around oneself?BestStella Sandahl On Nov 1, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: Following the advice of Prof. Dominik Vujastyk sometime ago. I wanted to take my typos easy. But at some places this time they seemed to be horrible. So let me resend it with corrections highlighted. : What Prof. Patrick J Olivelle was asking for was a textual reference. If it is the question of the details of the actual ritual, its altogether?a?different big story. ?1. Touching the ears is not just a ritual?as part of worship of a deity. It is a gesture as part of daily?speech adopted into the ritual. In north India, it is a common practice even today to pull one's own ear with one's own hand infinitesimally slightly down to indicate 'I apologise'. This has many complex nuances including those of expressions in romance in which case the gesture is made along with a mischievous smile. ?2. This gesture has a variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the? left ear with the right hand and vice versa. This is similar to the criss-crossing of?hands by a Vaidika male for self introduction with gotra etc. But the semiotics here is that of obedience rather than that of ?asking for forgiveness. The gesture too is little different . In the self introduction, the ear is closed with the back of the palms ,with the tips of the fingers facing upwards. ?3. In south India, the variation of criss-crossing the hands to hold the lower tip of the ear of the????left ear with the right hand and vice versa?is part of the ritual of??considered to be typical of Ganesha worship and is performed even during the briefest of Darshan of Ganesha. But here, this gesture is essentially part of sit-stand series expressing asking for forgiveness.??4. In any case, touching the ground is not part of these gestures or rituals employing them.??5. What probably is being viewed as touching the ground is sAshTAnga namaskAra which is an expression of surrender rather than asking for forgiveness. These two rituals are different from each other.??6. To show that surrender ritual and ritual for asking for forgiveness are different, I am providing this link?to a general popular description of a Devi-worship ritual:??which has? 15) ?????????? :- ?????? ? ?????? ? ?????? ????????? ? ????? ??? ? ?????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ????: ? ?????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ??? ? ?????????? ??? ????? ??????? ????????? ? 16)?????????? ????? :- ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? -??: ?????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????????? ?????????- ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????? ????????????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ????, ??? ????? ????????? ??????????? ???????? ? ?????? |( ?????????? ?????)? 7. The gesture of pulling the lower tip of the ear with or without criss-crossed hands has its origin in the mild punishment method of pinching the ear. This gesture has the semiotics of self-punishment. Series of sit-stand movements too has a similar? -punishment to self-punishment- 'derivation'.??8. Rotating around oneself is also part of????????????. But it has a different semiotic 'derivation'. ? Thanks for your patience. -- Nagaraj Paturi?Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.?Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies?FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of??Liberal Education,?(Pune, Maharashtra,?INDIA?)??? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dominic.goodall at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 11:22:25 2016 From: dominic.goodall at gmail.com (Dominic Goodall) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 16:52:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do widowed queens who continued as regents after their husbands? deaths not count? Surely there must be a few of these from much earlier periods. Prabh?vat? Gupt? is one. Another from further afield might be Kulaprabh?vat?, known from a fifth-century Cambodian inscription that seems to have been composed after her husband?s death (K. 875, Journal of the Greater India Society IV, p.117). Dominic Goodall > On 02-Nov-2016, at 6:55 AM, Nemec, John William (nemec) (jwn3y) wrote: > > No one has mentioned Queen DiddA, who reigned in 980-1003 A.D./C.E. in Kashmir, according to Kalha.a/Stein's dating. See the 6th taraGga. I think she also briefly ascended to the throne prior to this, as well, again according to Kalha.na. She is also known from the numismatic evidence; Cunningham records exemplars of her coinage, which was heavily alloyed. > > I've always just assumed there were other, earlier queens, and would be interested to know more. I'll look up the reference Rich gives us but hope others chime in. > > John Nemec > > ________________________________________ > From: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info] on behalf of Richard Salomon [rsalomon at uw.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 9:08 PM > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign > > I seem to recall that there was an excursus on queens in traditional > India in O. von Hinueber's book on the Palola Shahis, but I don't have a > copy at hand. > > Rich Salomon > > > On 11/2/2016 4:56 AM, Michael Slouber wrote: >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Who was the first female sovereign in India? I know about Razia Sultana in the 13th century, but were there any earlier? Has there been any more recent research on Razia since Rafiq Zakaria?s 1966 book? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Michael >> >> ?? >> Michael Slouber >> Assistant Professor of South Asia >> Department of Liberal Studies >> Western Washington University >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) Dominic Goodall ?cole fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient, 19, rue Dumas, Pondicherry 605001 Tel. +91 413 2334539 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From suresh.kolichala at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 11:33:42 2016 From: suresh.kolichala at gmail.com (Suresh Kolichala) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 07:33:42 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If we are including regents, then, we must include the Satavahana queen Naganika, wife of Satakarni (180-170 BCE? or early CE?), who acted as regent and carried on the administration after the death of her husband, because their son Vedasri was a minor (based on Naneghat inscription). Suresh. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:22 AM, Dominic Goodall wrote: > Do widowed queens who continued as regents after their husbands? deaths > not count? > > Surely there must be a few of these from much earlier periods. Prabh?vat? > Gupt? is one. Another from further afield might be Kulaprabh?vat?, known > from a fifth-century Cambodian inscription that seems to have been composed > after her husband?s death (K. 875, *Journal of the Greater India Society* > IV, p.117). > > Dominic Goodall > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:57:24 2016 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 21:27:24 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Application Deadline Extended: International Tantra Workshop (Manipal University) Message-ID: [image: Inline images 1] Dear All, Please note that the deadline for applying to participate in the *International Tantra Workshop* has been extended to *15 November 2016*. Please spread the word. Also, please see the poster enclosed and more details are mentioned on the link below: https://kashuradab.wordpress.com/international-workshop-on-tantric-studies/ Best wishes. Mrinal Kaul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tantrawrkshopposter.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 615520 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Wed Nov 2 19:42:59 2016 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 16 19:42:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] STIMW - Call for Papers Message-ID: Sent on behalf of Dr Jacqueline Suthren Hirst of the University of Manchester: STIMW - The Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World The 34th Annual STIMW Symposium Friday, 26 May 2017, 10.45am-5pm - The University of Manchester Call for papers Offers of papers by 3 February 2017 please to: Dr Jacqueline Suthren Hirst Religions and Theology Samuel Alexander Building University of Manchester Oxford Road Manchester M13 9PL Email: jacqueline.hirst at manchester.ac.uk STIMW offers a forum for the discussion of papers on varied aspects of Indian religions. Papers have been presented by leading scholars in the field as well as by research students. Papers are sent to participants in advance, so that they can be read and discussed in detail. They are available to those who cannot attend for a small charge. For more information, please see the website: http://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/religions-and-theology/connect/events/conferences/ Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Thu Nov 3 08:31:51 2016 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (hellwig7 at gmx.de) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 09:31:51 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries Message-ID: <1B61C71605AF47E999620D2A50EB49EB@OliverHP> Dear list members, 1) I am trying to find out by which lexicographic principles Monier-Williams and Cappeller ordered the **meanings** of each word in their dictionaries. For instance, MW gives the following first definitions for the lemma aTTa: "a watch-tower; a market, a market-place (...); N. of a Yaksha, ..." ? My question is: Why "a watch-tower; a market..." and not "a market; a watch-tower ..."? Tried to find an explanation in his preface, but was not able to detect it. Does anybody have a citation for this ordering? 2) A while back, I asked for your collaboration in annotating sentence boundaries in a few fragments of Sanskrit texts. Thanks to those who took the time for going through the sentences! You find the merged results here: http://www.sanskrit-linguistics.org/tmp/annotations.html Seems to be more complicated than expected! Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, University of D?sseldorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Thu Nov 3 09:37:20 2016 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 10:37:20 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: <1B61C71605AF47E999620D2A50EB49EB@OliverHP> Message-ID: I think the answer is simple. Monier's dictionary is basically a translation of Boehtlingk's PW, as Dr Dimitrov has pointed out only recently. One of the consequences thereof is that Monier has also adopted Boehtlingk's order of meanings, which generally depict the chronological sequence and related textual categories of his sources. In the present case, evidence for the first meaning of a??a ("watch-tower") was found by him in the R?m?ya?a, the second in Hemacandra's Abhidh?nacint?ma?i. A close perusal of Boehtlingk's prefaces to his own dictionaries (PW & pw) and the principles he followed will possibly clarify also the matter as far as Monier-Williams' plagiarism is concerned. He might however have left an information about the way he structured the order of meanings in his preface. Kind regards, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland 2016-11-03 9:31 GMT+01:00 : > Dear list members, > > 1) I am trying to find out by which lexicographic principles > Monier-Williams and Cappeller ordered the **meanings** of each word in > their dictionaries. > For instance, MW gives the following first definitions for the lemma aTTa: > "a watch-tower; a market, a market-place (...); N. of a Yaksha, ..." ? My > question is: Why "a watch-tower; a market..." and not "a market; a > watch-tower ..."? Tried to find an explanation in his preface, but was not > able to detect it. Does anybody have a citation for this ordering? > > 2) A while back, I asked for your collaboration in annotating sentence > boundaries in a few fragments of Sanskrit texts. Thanks to those who took > the time for going through the sentences! > You find the merged results here: > http://www.sanskrit-linguistics.org/tmp/annotations.html > Seems to be more complicated than expected! > > Best, Oliver > > --- > Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, University of D?sseldorf > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 09:42:39 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 10:42:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dr Dimitrov may have pointed out recently the debt of MW to PW, but this is not new; a paper from long ago has been cited on this list before, in which the exact situation is investigated in detail: https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml Best, Jonathan On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > I think the answer is simple. Monier's dictionary is basically a > translation of Boehtlingk's PW, as Dr Dimitrov has pointed out only > recently. One of the consequences thereof is that Monier has also adopted > Boehtlingk's order of meanings, which generally depict the chronological > sequence and related textual categories of his sources. In the present > case, evidence for the first meaning of a??a ("watch-tower") was found by > him in the R?m?ya?a, the second in Hemacandra's Abhidh?nacint?ma?i. A close > perusal of Boehtlingk's prefaces to his own dictionaries (PW & pw) and the > principles he followed will possibly clarify also the matter as far as > Monier-Williams' plagiarism is concerned. He might however have left an > information about the way he structured the order of meanings in his > preface. > > Kind regards, > WS > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > > > 2016-11-03 9:31 GMT+01:00 : > >> Dear list members, >> >> 1) I am trying to find out by which lexicographic principles >> Monier-Williams and Cappeller ordered the **meanings** of each word in >> their dictionaries. >> For instance, MW gives the following first definitions for the lemma >> aTTa: "a watch-tower; a market, a market-place (...); N. of a Yaksha, ..." >> ? My question is: Why "a watch-tower; a market..." and not "a market; a >> watch-tower ..."? Tried to find an explanation in his preface, but was not >> able to detect it. Does anybody have a citation for this ordering? >> >> 2) A while back, I asked for your collaboration in annotating sentence >> boundaries in a few fragments of Sanskrit texts. Thanks to those who took >> the time for going through the sentences! >> You find the merged results here: >> http://www.sanskrit-linguistics.org/tmp/annotations.html >> Seems to be more complicated than expected! >> >> Best, Oliver >> >> --- >> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, University of D?sseldorf >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Thu Nov 3 12:39:19 2016 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 13:39:19 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?? Yes, but obviously a tendency of forgetfulness seems to prevail on this list, which on occasion necessitates brief reminders, as Dr Dimitrov's and mine were intended to be. Zgusta's paper of 1988 rightly deserves to be called "of long ago". For it certainly ?does ? not reflect the current state of research in the history of PW lexicography in the context of its scholarly environment ?, nor is it free from methodological shortcomings? . In the meantime, entirely new documents have been brought to light, presented and discussed by Agnes Stache-Weiske. The latest of her recommendable papers is entitled ?Man mu? zuweilen Insekten mit Kanonen schie?en." Max M?llers Rolle im Streit zwischen B?htlingk und Monier-Williams. In: "In her right hand she held a silver knife with small bells ...". Studien zur indischen Kultur und Literatur. Hrsg. v. Anna Aurelia Esposito et al. Wiesbaden 2015, pp. 323-336. The interested reader will draw much benefit from Stache-Weiske's rich documentary work, which comprises also letter editions and allows anyone to form themselves an opinion on this and related matters with the help of substantial, excellently edited source materials. Best, WS 2016-11-03 10:42 GMT+01:00 Jonathan Silk : > Dr Dimitrov may have pointed out recently the debt of MW to PW, but this > is not new; a paper from long ago has been cited on this list before, in > which the exact situation is investigated in detail: > https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/lexi.1988.4. > issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml > > Best, Jonathan > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Walter Slaje wrote: > >> I think the answer is simple. Monier's dictionary is basically a >> translation of Boehtlingk's PW, as Dr Dimitrov has pointed out only >> recently. One of the consequences thereof is that Monier has also adopted >> Boehtlingk's order of meanings, which generally depict the chronological >> sequence and related textual categories of his sources. In the present >> case, evidence for the first meaning of a??a ("watch-tower") was found by >> him in the R?m?ya?a, the second in Hemacandra's Abhidh?nacint?ma?i. A close >> perusal of Boehtlingk's prefaces to his own dictionaries (PW & pw) and the >> principles he followed will possibly clarify also the matter as far as >> Monier-Williams' plagiarism is concerned. He might however have left an >> information about the way he structured the order of meanings in his >> preface. >> >> Kind regards, >> WS >> >> ----------------------------- >> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >> D-99425 Weimar >> Deutschland >> >> >> >> 2016-11-03 9:31 GMT+01:00 : >> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> 1) I am trying to find out by which lexicographic principles >>> Monier-Williams and Cappeller ordered the **meanings** of each word in >>> their dictionaries. >>> For instance, MW gives the following first definitions for the lemma >>> aTTa: "a watch-tower; a market, a market-place (...); N. of a Yaksha, ..." >>> ? My question is: Why "a watch-tower; a market..." and not "a market; a >>> watch-tower ..."? Tried to find an explanation in his preface, but was not >>> able to detect it. Does anybody have a citation for this ordering? >>> >>> 2) A while back, I asked for your collaboration in annotating sentence >>> boundaries in a few fragments of Sanskrit texts. Thanks to those who took >>> the time for going through the sentences! >>> You find the merged results here: >>> http://www.sanskrit-linguistics.org/tmp/annotations.html >>> Seems to be more complicated than expected! >>> >>> Best, Oliver >>> >>> --- >>> Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, University of D?sseldorf >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Thu Nov 3 12:58:52 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 12:58:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher Message-ID: Dear Friends: I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a humble and loving teacher and friend. With best wishes, Patrick Olivelle From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu Nov 3 13:11:02 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 09:11:02 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, This is a big loss especially to all those who were fortunate to have been students of Ludo Rocher. He loved my daughters and was like a grand father to them, during Manjushree's visit to Philadelphia. Shubhangi and I visited him and Rosane at his home in Philadelphia a few years ago, and experienced the continued warmth of his affection. He was a true Guru to me. May he rest in peace. I have attached photo of Ludo and Rosane with his students. Madhav On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Olivelle, J P wrote: > Dear Friends: > > I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, > Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a > more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a > humble and loving teacher and friend. > > With best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ludosstudents.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 280562 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Thu Nov 3 14:10:36 2016 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 15:10:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20161103151036.Horde.4suxAsGM5O7T2l3BGVFmMg9@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> > Dr Dimitrov may have pointed out recently the debt of MW to PW, but > this is not new; a paper from long ago has been cited on this list > before, in which the exact situation is investigated in detail: > https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml No doubt, Dr Dimitrov did not point to anything new, which, as far as I see, neither he nor anyone else has claimed, though. The point is rather that Monier-Williams's factual dependance on B?htlingk's (and Roth's) dictionaries is not generally known among indologists, as it seems, or, it is ignored or considered irrelevant, or it is even disputed, in the latter case usually under reference to Zgusta's 1988 paper, which seems to be taken as the final word in this matter. However, a closer look at his article shows that this is far from being correct, for the paper actually suffers from serious flaws. I shall not elaborate on that here, but I do intend to speak about the same issue on the "33. Deutscher Orientalistentag" (DOT) in Jena in September 2017 (http://www.dot2017.de/). As Prof. Slaje already mentioned today, a relevant article by Agnes Stache-Weiske appeared recently which is worth reading ("Man mu? zuweilen Insekten mit Kanonen schie?en." Max M?llers Rolle im Streit zwischen B?htlingk und Monier-Williams, in: "In ihrer rechten Hand hielt sie ein Messer mit Gl?ckchen ... ". "In her right hand she held a silver knife with small bells ...". Studien zur indischen Kultur und Literatur. Studies in Indian Culture and Literature. Herausgegeben von / Edited by Anna Aurelia Esposito, Heike 0berlin, B. A. Viveka Rai, Karin Juliana Steiner. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2015, pp. 323-336. In this article Stache-Weiske quotes, among other interesting documents, a letter by Ernst Leumann to Otto B?htlingk (dated 21.9.1883). Leumann has been Monier-Williams's first collaborator and longtime assistant (cp. MW's title page: "With the collaboration of E. Leumann, C. Cappeller"). The passage quoted by Stache-Weiske (pp. 313 f.) says: "Es ist nicht ohne ziemliche Beklemmung, da? ich Ihnen den eben erst abgedruckten ersten Bogen des neuen W?rterbuchs zukommen la?e. [...] in der Meinung, da? Sie ein erstes Recht darauf haben zu erfahren, wie man sich bestrebt Ihr W?rterbuch in England & Indien nutzbar zu machen, und thue es nicht blo? im Gef?hl der gr??ten Dankbarkeit sondern wirklich auch der tiefsten Pflicht, wie sie eben nur die Abh?ngigkeit von einem so immensen Werke wie das Ihrige einfl??en kann.? ("It is not without a strong feeling of trepidation that I send you the first sheet of the new dictionary [i.e. MW] printed just now [...] in the opinion that you have the first right to learn how one endeavours to make usable your dictionary in England and India. And this I do not only with a feeling of most sincere gratitude, but also of most profound duty really which can be instilled only by the dependance on such an immense work like yours.") Best, Roland Steiner From kauzeya at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 14:23:58 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 15:23:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: <20161103151036.Horde.4suxAsGM5O7T2l3BGVFmMg9@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: Dear Friends, I am afraid that perhaps my intention has been misinterpreted: I do not know Dr Dimitrov's relevant work, and did not know the paper by Dr Stache-Weiske, and did not intend to imply that the Zgusta paper was the final word, only that the reliance of MW on PW--whatever the details may be--has been discussed. I apologize that I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest, without intending to do so. Jonathan On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Roland Steiner wrote: > > Dr Dimitrov may have pointed out recently the debt of MW to PW, but this >> is not new; a paper from long ago has been cited on this list before, in >> which the exact situation is investigated in detail: >> https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/lexi.1988.4.issue-1/ >> 9783110244083.145/9783110244083.145.xml >> > > No doubt, Dr Dimitrov did not point to anything new, which, as far as I > see, neither he nor anyone else has claimed, though. The point is rather > that Monier-Williams's factual dependance on B?htlingk's (and Roth's) > dictionaries is not generally known among indologists, as it seems, or, it > is ignored or considered irrelevant, or it is even disputed, in the latter > case usually under reference to Zgusta's 1988 paper, which seems to be > taken as the final word in this matter. However, a closer look at his > article shows that this is far from being correct, for the paper actually > suffers from serious flaws. I shall not elaborate on that here, but I do > intend to speak about the same issue on the "33. Deutscher > Orientalistentag" (DOT) in Jena in September 2017 (http://www.dot2017.de/ > ). > > As Prof. Slaje already mentioned today, a relevant article by Agnes > Stache-Weiske appeared recently which is worth reading ("Man mu? zuweilen > Insekten mit Kanonen schie?en." Max M?llers Rolle im Streit zwischen > B?htlingk und Monier-Williams, in: "In ihrer rechten Hand hielt sie ein > Messer mit Gl?ckchen ... ". "In her right hand she held a silver knife with > small bells ...". Studien zur indischen Kultur und Literatur. Studies in > Indian Culture and Literature. Herausgegeben von / Edited by Anna Aurelia > Esposito, Heike 0berlin, B. A. Viveka Rai, Karin Juliana Steiner. > Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz 2015, pp. 323-336. > > In this article Stache-Weiske quotes, among other interesting documents, a > letter by Ernst Leumann to Otto B?htlingk (dated 21.9.1883). Leumann has > been Monier-Williams's first collaborator and longtime assistant (cp. MW's > title page: "With the collaboration of E. Leumann, C. Cappeller"). The > passage quoted by Stache-Weiske (pp. 313 f.) says: > > "Es ist nicht ohne ziemliche Beklemmung, da? ich Ihnen den eben erst > abgedruckten ersten Bogen des neuen W?rterbuchs zukommen la?e. [...] in der > Meinung, da? Sie ein erstes Recht darauf haben zu erfahren, wie man sich > bestrebt Ihr W?rterbuch in England & Indien nutzbar zu machen, und thue es > nicht blo? im Gef?hl der gr??ten Dankbarkeit sondern wirklich auch der > tiefsten Pflicht, wie sie eben nur die Abh?ngigkeit von einem so immensen > Werke wie das Ihrige einfl??en kann.? > > ("It is not without a strong feeling of trepidation that I send you the > first sheet of the new dictionary [i.e. MW] printed just now [...] in the > opinion that you have the first right to learn how one endeavours to make > usable your dictionary in England and India. And this I do not only with a > feeling of most sincere gratitude, but also of most profound duty really > which can be instilled only by the dependance on such an immense work like > yours.") > > Best, Roland Steiner > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Thu Nov 3 14:54:23 2016 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 15:54:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: <20161103151036.Horde.4suxAsGM5O7T2l3BGVFmMg9@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <20161103155423.Horde.QzZqpPH0oMKi9pigY9dVZ6_@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Jonathan, Far and wide no hornet's net. It is simply astonishing that with regard to entries in MW's dictionary one permanently comes across questions of a certain type. They always require the same answer: please have a look at the respective entry in B?htlingk's dictionary. Best wishes, Roland From cardonagj at verizon.net Thu Nov 3 15:28:16 2016 From: cardonagj at verizon.net (George Cardona) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 11:28:16 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <690C11C9-94F3-4833-9C77-BD75DFD0A920@verizon.net> I join Madhav and Patrick in their sentiments. Ludo and I were colleagues from 1965 on and I always found him courteous and cooperative, willing and able to contribute to discussions meaningfully and fairly. Cordially, George Cardona > On Nov 3, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Dear Patrick, > > This is a big loss especially to all those who were fortunate to have been students of Ludo Rocher. He loved my daughters and was like a grand father to them, during Manjushree's visit to Philadelphia. Shubhangi and I visited him and Rosane at his home in Philadelphia a few years ago, and experienced the continued warmth of his affection. He was a true Guru to me. May he rest in peace. I have attached photo of Ludo and Rosane with his students. > > Madhav > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Olivelle, J P > wrote: > Dear Friends: > > I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a humble and loving teacher and friend. > > With best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Thu Nov 3 16:10:54 2016 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (hellwig7 at gmx.de) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 17:10:54 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lexicographic order / sentence boundaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <929FDA70C4764BCE88C54268368F604A@OliverHP> Dear list members, thanks a lot for your prompt replies, and the pointers to the relevant papers! Really appreciate your feedback. Best, Oliver Hellwig From rpg at berkeley.edu Thu Nov 3 18:07:45 2016 From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 11:07:45 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: <690C11C9-94F3-4833-9C77-BD75DFD0A920@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56FB8ACE-F9DE-4249-B1E0-80F3717E7C82@berkeley.edu> I am saddened to learn of Ludo?s passing. He was my teacher and my dissertation supervisor. He was a deeply learned and generous scholar and a gentleman of teh odl school. He will be sorely missed by his many friends, colleagues and former students. Bob Goldman Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 > On Nov 3, 2016, at 8:28 AM, George Cardona wrote: > > I join Madhav and Patrick in their sentiments. Ludo and I were colleagues from 1965 on and I always found him courteous and cooperative, willing and able to contribute to discussions meaningfully and fairly. Cordially, George Cardona > > >> On Nov 3, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> This is a big loss especially to all those who were fortunate to have been students of Ludo Rocher. He loved my daughters and was like a grand father to them, during Manjushree's visit to Philadelphia. Shubhangi and I visited him and Rosane at his home in Philadelphia a few years ago, and experienced the continued warmth of his affection. He was a true Guru to me. May he rest in peace. I have attached photo of Ludo and Rosane with his students. >> >> Madhav >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Olivelle, J P > wrote: >> Dear Friends: >> >> I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a humble and loving teacher and friend. >> >> With best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Thu Nov 3 19:58:02 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 19:58:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Passing of Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: <11B1C0D4-EC99-4898-A046-4B75396D7F12@uiowa.edu> Message-ID: Dear Friends: To add to the fine eulogy of Fred, the last book authored by Ludo was published just a couple of months before his passing, thanks to the work of our colleague Federico Squarcini: Vyavah?rasaukya: The Treatise on Legal Procedure in the ?o?ar?nanda composed at the Instance of ?o?aramalla during the Reign of Akbar. Firenze: Societ? Editrica Fiorentina, 2916. His Keine Schriften were edited by Don Davis: Studies in Hindu Law and Dharma??stra. London: Anthem Press, 2012. With best wishes, Patrick Olivelle On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Smith, Frederick M > wrote: Dear RISA-L sah?dayas, Several of Professor Ludo Rocher?s former students learned this morning of his passing last night, at age 90, peacefully, at his home in Philadelphia. Ludo was more than a mentor and guide for his students, myself included. He was a lifetime friend and a role model of scholarship, elegance, positivity, dignity, and, not least for many of us, of how to act in a most congenial manner as a department chair in the face of truculent administrators and colleagues. He was the chair of the Department of Oriental Studies (later renamed Asian and Middle Eastern Studies), and the Department of South Asian Studies, at the University of Pennsylvania for twenty-four years, and taught actively for nearly forty years, from 1966-2004. He mentored not just his own students, but many of his students? students. He was a paragon of knowledge, virtue, and love for his work. He was born in Antwerp in 1926, spent several years in India in the 1950s, then returned repeatedly, usually to Kolkata. Much of his work took him to archives in London, Germany, and elsewhere. He is survived by his wife, the wonderful Rosane Rocher, whose indefatigable love and ministrations kept him alive and at work for at least fifteen years beyond what was expected at the time. Rosane was not just his wife, but collaborator on many of his works, in addition to being a fine scholar in her own right. Ludo was one of the most visible and important scholars of Dharma??stra of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. I will leave it to others to add more. I will, however, add only one note ? His Sanskrit was awesome, his versatility was unparalleled, and he constantly made the most difficult passages completely transparent through his complete understanding of the grammar and the lucidity of his presentation, whether it was in graduate classes, in is careful reading of dissertations, or anything in his extravagantly long list of publications. Hopefully, this list. Including his most recent book, published this year(!), will be forthcoming soon. Kind regards Fred Smith University of Iowa _______________________________________________ RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwn3y at eservices.virginia.edu Thu Nov 3 22:01:57 2016 From: jwn3y at eservices.virginia.edu (Nemec, John William (nemec) (jwn3y)) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 22:01:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Passing of Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2ABAFE8B-BB49-4B4A-A9F8-0AF61C0B072A@eservices.virginia.edu> I am so saddened to hear the news of Ludo's passing. His excellence as a Sanskritist was surpassed only by his excellence as a human being. He was a friend, my dissertation mentor, a model and a guide. I'll never forget his avuncular style, sense of humor, clarity of mind, and generosity. The man had a steel spine; he was strong in all the good ways, yet deeply compassionate. I never knew him to be afraid of anything; and he enjoyed life. A steady, kind soul. I will miss him. John > On Nov 3, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Olivelle, J P wrote: > > Dear Friends: > > To add to the fine eulogy of Fred, the last book authored by Ludo was published just a couple of months before his passing, thanks to the work of our colleague Federico Squarcini: > > Vyavah?rasaukya: The Treatise on Legal Procedure in the ?o?ar?nanda composed at the Instance of ?o?aramalla during the Reign of Akbar. Firenze: Societ? Editrica Fiorentina, 2916. > > His Keine Schriften were edited by Don Davis: > > Studies in Hindu Law and Dharma??stra. London: Anthem Press, 2012. > > With best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > > > > > On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Smith, Frederick M > wrote: > > Dear RISA-L sah?dayas, > > Several of Professor Ludo Rocher?s former students learned this morning of his passing last night, at age 90, peacefully, at his home in Philadelphia. Ludo was more than a mentor and guide for his students, myself included. He was a lifetime friend and a role model of scholarship, elegance, positivity, dignity, and, not least for many of us, of how to act in a most congenial manner as a department chair in the face of truculent administrators and colleagues. He was the chair of the Department of Oriental Studies (later renamed Asian and Middle Eastern Studies), and the Department of South Asian Studies, at the University of Pennsylvania for twenty-four years, and taught actively for nearly forty years, from 1966-2004. He mentored not just his own students, but many of his students? students. He was a paragon of knowledge, virtue, and love for his work. He was born in Antwerp in 1926, spent several years in India in the 1950s, then returned repeatedly, usually to Kolkata. Much of his work took him to archives in London, Germany, and elsewhere. He is survived by his wife, the wonderful Rosane Rocher, whose indefatigable love and ministrations kept him alive and at work for at least fifteen years beyond what was expected at the time. Rosane was not just his wife, but collaborator on many of his works, in addition to being a fine scholar in her own right. Ludo was one of the most visible and important scholars of Dharma??stra of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. I will leave it to others to add more. I will, however, add only one note ? His Sanskrit was awesome, his versatility was unparalleled, and he constantly made the most difficult passages completely transparent through his complete understanding of the grammar and the lucidity of his presentation, whether it was in graduate classes, in is careful reading of dissertations, or anything in his extravagantly long list of publications. Hopefully, this list. Including his most recent book, published this year(!), will be forthcoming soon. > > Kind regards > Fred Smith > University of Iowa > > > > _______________________________________________ > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu > https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l > > _______________________________________________ > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu > https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Thu Nov 3 22:31:25 2016 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 22:31:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Passing of Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: <615E692C-5BAD-480C-8A7C-27875F124997@bu.edu> Message-ID: Dear List, Let us not also forget Ludo's excellent work on the Pur??as, his book on which I still use all the time. He was a real gentleman and a pleasure to be with at conferences. Condolences to Rosane. Greg Bailey On 4/11/16 9:12 AM, "Korom, Frank J" wrote: >I wasn't even Ludo's student, but he always took an interest in me and my >work. He took me to lunch at the Penn Faculty Club several times and even >hosted my ex-wife and I at the Rocher Poconos cabin. I saw him last in >Kolkata during the winter of 2004, where he spent every day at the >Asiatic Society Library. There are very few professors left in the world >as dedicated as he was. > >Condolences, > >Frank J. Korom >Boston University >Professor of Religion & Anthropology > >Sent by a human being who has no control over auto correct. > >> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:05 PM, "Nemec, John William (nemec) (jwn3y)" >> wrote: >> >> I am so saddened to hear the news of Ludo's passing. His excellence as >>a Sanskritist was surpassed only by his excellence as a human being. He >>was a friend, my dissertation mentor, a model and a guide. I'll never >>forget his avuncular style, sense of humor, clarity of mind, and >>generosity. The man had a steel spine; he was strong in all the good >>ways, yet deeply compassionate. I never knew him to be afraid of >>anything; and he enjoyed life. A steady, kind soul. I will miss him. >> >> John >> >> >>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Olivelle, J P >>>wrote: >>> >>> Dear Friends: >>> >>> To add to the fine eulogy of Fred, the last book authored by Ludo was >>>published just a couple of months before his passing, thanks to the >>>work of our colleague Federico Squarcini: >>> >>> Vyavah?rasaukya: The Treatise on Legal Procedure in the ?o?ar?nanda >>>composed at the Instance of ?o?aramalla during the Reign of Akbar. >>>Firenze: Societ? Editrica Fiorentina, 2916. >>> >>> His Keine Schriften were edited by Don Davis: >>> >>> Studies in Hindu Law and Dharma??stra. London: Anthem Press, 2012. >>> >>> With best wishes, >>> >>> Patrick Olivelle >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Smith, Frederick M >>>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear RISA-L sah?dayas, >>> >>> Several of Professor Ludo Rocher?s former students learned this >>>morning of his passing last night, at age 90, peacefully, at his home >>>in Philadelphia. Ludo was more than a mentor and guide for his >>>students, myself included. He was a lifetime friend and a role model of >>>scholarship, elegance, positivity, dignity, and, not least for many of >>>us, of how to act in a most congenial manner as a department chair in >>>the face of truculent administrators and colleagues. He was the chair >>>of the Department of Oriental Studies (later renamed Asian and Middle >>>Eastern Studies), and the Department of South Asian Studies, at the >>>University of Pennsylvania for twenty-four years, and taught actively >>>for nearly forty years, from 1966-2004. He mentored not just his own >>>students, but many of his students? students. He was a paragon of >>>knowledge, virtue, and love for his work. He was born in Antwerp in >>>1926, spent several years in India in the 1950s, then returned >>>repeatedly, usually to Kolkata. Much of his work took him to archives >>>in London, Germany, and elsewhere. He is survived by his wife, the >>>wonderful Rosane Rocher, whose indefatigable love and ministrations >>>kept him alive and at work for at least fifteen years beyond what was >>>expected at the time. Rosane was not just his wife, but collaborator on >>>many of his works, in addition to being a fine scholar in her own >>>right. Ludo was one of the most visible and important scholars of >>>Dharma??stra of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. I will leave >>>it to others to add more. I will, however, add only one note ? His >>>Sanskrit was awesome, his versatility was unparalleled, and he >>>constantly made the most difficult passages completely transparent >>>through his complete understanding of the grammar and the lucidity of >>>his presentation, whether it was in graduate classes, in is careful >>>reading of dissertations, or anything in his extravagantly long list of >>>publications. Hopefully, this list. Including his most recent book, >>>published this year(!), will be forthcoming soon. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Fred Smith >>> University of Iowa >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RISA-L mailing list >>> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu >>> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RISA-L mailing list >>> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu >>> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l >> _______________________________________________ >> RISA-L mailing list >> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu >> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l >_______________________________________________ >RISA-L mailing list >RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu >https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l From loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu Thu Nov 3 22:45:11 2016 From: loriliai.biernacki at colorado.edu (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 16 22:45:11 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: <56FB8ACE-F9DE-4249-B1E0-80F3717E7C82@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: This is indeed very sad. He was a wonderful teacher, always kind, thoughtful, a wonderful mentor. I remember him holding class at his home for some of us, so that we could examine his extensive collection of books, along with that amazing dictionary desk. I for one will deeply miss his kindness and generosity. My deep condolences to Rosane. All best, Loriliai -- Loriliai Biernacki Associate Chair, Director of Graduate Studies Associate Professor Department of Religious Studies University of Colorado at Boulder UCB 292 Boulder, CO 80309 303-735-4730 From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Robert Goldman > Date: Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:07 PM To: George Cardona > Cc: Indology >, +++RISA ACADEMIC DISCUSSION LIST+++ > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher I am saddened to learn of Ludo's passing. He was my teacher and my dissertation supervisor. He was a deeply learned and generous scholar and a gentleman of teh odl school. He will be sorely missed by his many friends, colleagues and former students. Bob Goldman Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 On Nov 3, 2016, at 8:28 AM, George Cardona > wrote: I join Madhav and Patrick in their sentiments. Ludo and I were colleagues from 1965 on and I always found him courteous and cooperative, willing and able to contribute to discussions meaningfully and fairly. Cordially, George Cardona On Nov 3, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Dear Patrick, This is a big loss especially to all those who were fortunate to have been students of Ludo Rocher. He loved my daughters and was like a grand father to them, during Manjushree's visit to Philadelphia. Shubhangi and I visited him and Rosane at his home in Philadelphia a few years ago, and experienced the continued warmth of his affection. He was a true Guru to me. May he rest in peace. I have attached photo of Ludo and Rosane with his students. Madhav On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Olivelle, J P > wrote: Dear Friends: I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a humble and loving teacher and friend. With best wishes, Patrick Olivelle _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:09:07 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 12:39:07 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti Message-ID: Dear Friends, Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? yasya deve par? *bhaktir* yath? deve tath? gurau / tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // SvetUp_6.23 // I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: *GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. * http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate clarification. I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Fri Nov 4 05:46:49 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 01:46:49 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202A849A-8E16-4403-88A0-3D937FCD5B2D@verizon.net> I join in sorrow over Ludo?s departure from this life. While I was not his dissertation student, he always was open and generous in sharing time, knowledge, research findings and methods with me, as with all of the students in our indological program. A teacher and friend, as Patrick aptly remarks. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > On 03 Nov 2016, at 08:58, Olivelle, J P wrote: > > Dear Friends: > > I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a humble and loving teacher and friend. > > With best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 06:43:07 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 12:13:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, I went to the website you directed us to. It is an ISKCON activity. It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does not add any new value. For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? > > yasya deve par? *bhaktir* yath? deve tath? gurau / > tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // > SvetUp_6.23 // > > > I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: > > > > *GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. * > > http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC > > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought > 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the > bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this > statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to > conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. > > > As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate > clarification. > > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in > their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and > legitimacy. > > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Fri Nov 4 11:03:26 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 07:03:26 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9E54D99B-6674-4702-8F38-F8398EB10D0C@ivs.edu> Nagaraj has stated the ?insider?s point of view? very well. I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? Best, Howard > On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > Dear Patrick, > > I went to the website you directed us to. > > It is an ISKCON activity. > > It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. > > What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. > > The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > > It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. > > For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does not add any new value. > > For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? > > yasya deve par? bhaktir yath? deve tath? gurau / > tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // SvetUp_6.23 // > > > I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: > > GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. > http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. > > As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate clarification. > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > Linkedin > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium ? > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > A Day in our Ashram > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala? > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From franco at uni-leipzig.de Fri Nov 4 12:16:51 2016 From: franco at uni-leipzig.de (Eli Franco) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 13:16:51 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A new publication: Around Abhinavagupta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20161104131651.Horde.V8zFKFEaRQ4y6-wm1eZ-3ud@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Dear friends and colleagues, The proceedings of the conference Around Abhinavagupta Aspects of the Intellectual History of Kashmir from the Ninth to the Eleventh Century have just been published. I enclose the table of contents in an attached file. With best wishes, Eli Franco -- Prof. Dr. Eli Franco Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Schillerstr. 6 04109 Leipzig Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office) Fax +49 341 9737 148 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FrancoRati?AroundAbhinavaguptaContents.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 538358 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shyamr at yorku.ca Fri Nov 4 14:36:15 2016 From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 10:36:15 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <9E54D99B-6674-4702-8F38-F8398EB10D0C@ivs.edu> Message-ID: <90107614-d490-e0d9-2c2a-db730c27ac23@yorku.ca> B Dear Patrick , When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya Vaishnavism. A theme he emphasized is that the idea of bhakti, or binding oneself to a deity, is pretty old in the Vedic tradition as the Mantras often express sentiments of loyalty and fidelity to the deity that is invoked. What serves to bring the continuity of this theme to the fore is to follow the development of Yoga, which is pretty much the same as Bhakti, as a philosophical movement. The early mention of yoga of course is in the /Ka?ha //Upani?ad/ where Yama describes success in Yoga as taking one to Vi??u?s realm. Later, this idea of approximating the Lord becomes central to Yoga in Pata?jali?s /Yoga S?tra/as /??vara/ pra?idh?na. Ramanuja carries on this theme by identifying bhakti as a kind of /j??na/ but further a kind of /up?sana/, which evokes images of meditation but also offerings to sacrificial fires. This serves to highlight a continuity of a theme stretching back to the early Vedas of the approximation of a deity via Vedic themes of sacrifice. What shifts from the early to the later period is that in the early /mantra/ period worshiping a deity was motivated by desire for outcomes?a practice that is consequentialist as consequentialism is the view that right procedure is justified by a good outcome. What happens by the time of the /Upani?ad/s is that consequentialism starts to be viewed with suspicion because, as Yama himself describes in the /Ka?ha Upani?ad/, those who are geared towards outcomes do not take control of their life and this results in ruin. So what we see happening is a switch to a radical procedural ethics, that treats practice as defined by a regulative ideal, the Lord, and the worship or approximation of this ideal as resulting in the good. It is superficially like consequentialism but it is contrary. This radical proceeduralism is Yoga, or Bhakti. The main difference is that Yoga or Bhakti is a causal story of how the right brings about the good and is the opposite of Virtue Ethics that claims that the good character brings about the right action. Bhakti/Yoga rather claims that the right practice is defined by the ideal of the right (the Lord) and perfecting this practice is the good. Consequentialism in contrast is an account not of moral causation but justification. So while the ideas that the bhakti tradition rely upon are ancient, and not implausibly described as Vedic, it is true that there is a radical shift that characterizes the latter part of the Vedic tradition starting with the /Upani?ad/s. We see this transition from consequentialism to a radical proceeduralism of bhakti as a theme of the /G?t?/ , for instance. I think it also explains why Brahman as development comes to occupy a central place in later Vedic thought. If you are interested in this, I?ve written a bit about it: Ranganathan, S. (forthcoming) 2017. /Vedas and Upani//?ads/. In /Volume 1: The History of Evil in Antiquity (2000BCE-450CE)./ Edited by Tom Angier. Of /History of Evil /edited by C. Taliaferro and C. Meister. London: Routledge. For a wider survey of this tradition, please see Ranganathan, Shyam. 2017. 'Three Ved?ntas: Three Accounts of Character, Freedom and Responsibility.' In /The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics /edited by Shyam Ranganathan, 249-274. Of /Bloomsbury Research Handbooks in Asian Philosophy, /edited by Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad and Sor-hoon Tan. London: Bloomsbury Academic. If you are interested in how Bhakti/Yoga is a different moral theory from Consequentialism, Deontology and Virtue Ethics, please see: Ranganathan, Shyam. 2017. 'Pata?jali?s Yoga: Universal Ethics as the Formal Cause of Autonomy.' In /The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics /edited by Shyam Ranganathan, 177-202 Of /Bloomsbury Research Handbooks in Asian Philosophy, /edited by Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad and Sor-hoon Tan. London: Bloomsbury Academic. The latter two should be out in a couple of weeks. Best wishes, Shyam Shyam Ranganathan Department of Philosophy, South Asian Studies, Department of Social Sciences York University Toronto On 04/11/2016 7:03 AM, Howard Resnick wrote: > Nagaraj has stated the ?insider?s point of view? very well. I will add > that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, > and the Gita is one of three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? > Best, > Howard > >> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > > wrote: >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> I went to the website you directed us to. >> >> It is an ISKCON activity. >> >> It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta >> which is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. >> >> What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. >> Their philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV >> is based on Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga >> is used here in that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word >> Vedic here. >> >> The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. >> The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the >> lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of >> course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is >> Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily >> Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. >> >> It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull >> for such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. >> >> For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I >> guess, does not add any new value. >> >> For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are >> distributed in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming >> that Jesus is in the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of >> the internet-popular themes. It is interesting to study the motives >> behind such claims. >> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney >> > wrote: >> >> Dear Friends, >> >> Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? >> >> yasya deve par? *bhaktir* yath? deve tath? gurau / >> tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante >> mah?tmana? // SvetUp_6.23 // >> >> >> I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following >> statement: >> >> /GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. / >> http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC >> >> >> While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I >> thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, >> and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. >> To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to >> the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate >> disparate things. >> >> As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate >> clarification. >> >> I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' >> sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate >> 'authenticity' and legitimacy. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> * >> >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the >> list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Nov 4 15:16:37 2016 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 08:16:37 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. The Srivaishnavas took the first-millennium hymns of the Divyaprabandham and made them the ?Tamil Veda.? I?m not sure exactly when this happened, but probably about the 10th or 11th millennium CE. The poems themselves describe how moving they are when sung, but unfortunately in order to stress their ?Vedic? status, they came to be recited like the Vedas, mechanically and without the music, which must have been quite beautiful. When recited in front of a deity, certain phonemes (I forget exactly which ones) are changed to softer phonemes lest the reciter inadvertently pollute the deity. Recitation of the Divyaprabandham is part of the worship in many Vaishnava temples in the south, and its words are considered on a par with those of the Vedas. The Divyaprabandham itself, which dates to the first millennium CE, goes to great lengths to identify Vishnu worship with the Vedas. George > On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > Dear Patrick, > > I went to the website you directed us to. > > It is an ISKCON activity. > > It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. > > What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. > > The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > > It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. > > For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does not add any new value. > > For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? > > yasya deve par? bhaktir yath? deve tath? gurau / > tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // SvetUp_6.23 // > > > I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: > > GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. > http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. > > As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate clarification. > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > Linkedin > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium ? > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > A Day in our Ashram > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala? > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Palaniappa at aol.com Fri Nov 4 16:43:44 2016 From: Palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 11:43:44 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Afterword by Richard Davis in The Archaeology of Bhakti II: Royal Bhakti, Local Bhakti edited by Emmanuel Francis and Charlotte Schmid, IFP and EFEO, Pondicherry, 2016 may be useful in this connection. Here is an excerpt. ?In light of this diversity of forms of bhakti portrayed in classical Indic texts, it seems wise to abandon the attempt to identify a single point of historical origin for bhakti. Instead, we might adapt the archeological method of the chorological classification. Within the same chronological period, we find a variety of types (in this case, varieties of devotional religion), fulfilling the same function, which for the archeologist points to a divergence of traditions involving distinct groups (in this case, different religious communities). In our case, the difference is not a geographical one, as it usually is for archeologists, but a matter of differing religious commitments. How does bhakti manifest itself differently within different religious communities, directing themselves towards different recipients?? The concept of emotional bhakti (as opposed to intellectual bhakti) a la F. Hardy has been traced to the poetry of A?vars and N?ya?mars till now. However, in a paper I presented in 2015, I argue that the beginning of emotional bhakti can be traced all the way back to the Clssical Tamil poetry. Regards, Palaniappan > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:16 AM, George Hart wrote: > > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. The Srivaishnavas took the first-millennium hymns of the Divyaprabandham and made them the ?Tamil Veda.? I?m not sure exactly when this happened, but probably about the 10th or 11th millennium CE. The poems themselves describe how moving they are when sung, but unfortunately in order to stress their ?Vedic? status, they came to be recited like the Vedas, mechanically and without the music, which must have been quite beautiful. When recited in front of a deity, certain phonemes (I forget exactly which ones) are changed to softer phonemes lest the reciter inadvertently pollute the deity. Recitation of the Divyaprabandham is part of the worship in many Vaishnava temples in the south, and its words are considered on a par with those of the Vedas. The Divyaprabandham itself, which dates to the first millennium CE, goes to great lengths to identify Vishnu worship with the Vedas. George > >> On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> I went to the website you directed us to. >> >> It is an ISKCON activity. >> >> It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. >> >> What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. >> >> The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. >> >> It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. >> >> For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does not add any new value. >> >> For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. >> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: >> Dear Friends, >> >> Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? >> >> yasya deve par? bhaktir yath? deve tath? gurau / >> tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // SvetUp_6.23 // >> >> >> I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: >> >> GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. >> http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC >> >> While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >> >> As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate clarification. >> >> I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> Linkedin >> >> Edanz >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium ? >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala? >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glhart at berkeley.edu Fri Nov 4 17:03:55 2016 From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 10:03:55 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <90107614-d490-e0d9-2c2a-db730c27ac23@yorku.ca> Message-ID: One might add that with the ??v?rs (Divyaprabandham) and the ?aiva N?ya?m?rs, there is a strong emphasis on temple worship and of the actual presence of the deity in the temple. The importance of the temple is perhaps the distinguishing innovation of the bhakti worship in the Tamil area that subsequently spread north. The Tamil bhakti poets modeled their behavior after that of the earlier Sangam poets, who would go from the court of one king to another singing poems of praise and receiving gifts. Subsequently, Vishnu and ?iva were identified with kings (the Tamil word for temple is k?yil and means ?king?s house?) and the bhakti poets would go from one temple to another singing the manifestation of Vi??u or ?iva there. The Divyaprabandham says again and again that Tirum?? (Vi??u) is equally in Vaiku??ha, in the particular temple the poet is visiting or singing about, and the heart of the devotee. Most of the major temples described 1500 years ago are still there, and in Sangam literature itself, almost 2000 years ago, we find some temples to Murugan (Pa?a?i, Tiruccent?r) that are still extremely popular. We have bhakti poems in Sangam literature (the Parip??al, Tirumuruk???uppa?ai) probably centuries earlier than the A?v?rs and N?ya?m?rs, as Palaniappan has pointed out (see his post). George > On Nov 4, 2016, at 7:36 AM, Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > > > > Dear Patrick , > > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya Vaishnavism. > > A theme he emphasized is that the idea of bhakti, or binding oneself to a deity, is pretty old in the Vedic tradition as the Mantras often express sentiments of loyalty and fidelity to the deity that is invoked. > > What serves to bring the continuity of this theme to the fore is to follow the development of Yoga, which is pretty much the same as Bhakti, as a philosophical movement. > > The early mention of yoga of course is in the Ka?ha Upani?ad where Yama describes success in Yoga as taking one to Vi??u?s realm. Later, this idea of approximating the Lord becomes central to Yoga in Pata?jali?s Yoga S?tra as ??vara pra?idh?na. Ramanuja carries on this theme by identifying bhakti as a kind of j??na but further a kind of up?sana, which evokes images of meditation but also offerings to sacrificial fires. This serves to highlight a continuity of a theme stretching back to the early Vedas of the approximation of a deity via Vedic themes of sacrifice. > > What shifts from the early to the later period is that in the early mantra period worshiping a deity was motivated by desire for outcomes?a practice that is consequentialist as consequentialism is the view that right procedure is justified by a good outcome. What happens by the time of the Upani?ads is that consequentialism starts to be viewed with suspicion because, as Yama himself describes in the Ka?ha Upani?ad, those who are geared towards outcomes do not take control of their life and this results in ruin. So what we see happening is a switch to a radical procedural ethics, that treats practice as defined by a regulative ideal, the Lord, and the worship or approximation of this ideal as resulting in the good. It is superficially like consequentialism but it is contrary. This radical proceeduralism is Yoga, or Bhakti. The main difference is that Yoga or Bhakti is a causal story of how the right brings about the good and is the opposite of Virtue Ethics that claims that the good character brings about the right action. Bhakti/Yoga rather claims that the right practice is defined by the ideal of the right (the Lord) and perfecting this practice is the good. Consequentialism in contrast is an account not of moral causation but justification. > > So while the ideas that the bhakti tradition rely upon are ancient, and not implausibly described as Vedic, it is true that there is a radical shift that characterizes the latter part of the Vedic tradition starting with the Upani?ads. We see this transition from consequentialism to a radical proceeduralism of bhakti as a theme of the G?t? , for instance. I think it also explains why Brahman as development comes to occupy a central place in later Vedic thought. > > If you are interested in this, I?ve written a bit about it: > > Ranganathan, S. (forthcoming) 2017. Vedas and Upani?ads. In Volume 1: The History of Evil in Antiquity (2000BCE-450CE). Edited by Tom Angier. Of History of Evil edited by C. Taliaferro and C. Meister. London: Routledge. > > For a wider survey of this tradition, please see > > Ranganathan, Shyam. 2017. 'Three Ved?ntas: Three Accounts of Character, Freedom and Responsibility.' In The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics edited by Shyam Ranganathan, 249-274. Of Bloomsbury Research Handbooks in Asian Philosophy, edited by Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad and Sor-hoon Tan. London: Bloomsbury Academic. > > If you are interested in how Bhakti/Yoga is a different moral theory from Consequentialism, Deontology and Virtue Ethics, please see: > > Ranganathan, Shyam. 2017. 'Pata?jali?s Yoga: Universal Ethics as the Formal Cause of Autonomy.' In The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics edited by Shyam Ranganathan, 177-202 Of Bloomsbury Research Handbooks in Asian Philosophy, edited by Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad and Sor-hoon Tan. London: Bloomsbury Academic. > > The latter two should be out in a couple of weeks. > > Best wishes, > > Shyam > > > > Shyam Ranganathan > > Department of Philosophy, > > South Asian Studies, Department of Social Sciences > > York University Toronto > > > > > > On 04/11/2016 7:03 AM, Howard Resnick wrote: >> Nagaraj has stated the ?insider?s point of view? very well. I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >> Best, >> Howard >> >>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>> I went to the website you directed us to. >>> >>> It is an ISKCON activity. >>> >>> It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. >>> >>> What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. >>> >>> The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. >>> >>> It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. >>> >>> For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does not add any new value. >>> >>> For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: >>> Dear Friends, >>> >>> Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? >>> >>> yasya deve par? bhaktir yath? deve tath? gurau / >>> tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // SvetUp_6.23 // >>> >>> >>> I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: >>> >>> GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. >>> http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC >>> >>> While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >>> >>> As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate clarification. >>> >>> I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>> Fellow >>> School of Culture, History & Language >>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>> The Australian National University >>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>> >>> >>> Skype - psdmccartney >>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>> >>> >>> academia >>> >>> Linkedin >>> >>> Edanz >>> >>> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium ? >>> >>> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >>> >>> Ep 2 - Total-am >>> >>> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >>> >>> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >>> >>> A Day in our Ashram >>> >>> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala? >>> >>> Forced to Clean Human Waste >>> >>> One of my favourite song s >>> >>> The Philosophy of Cycling >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Fri Nov 4 20:26:47 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 10:26:47 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII 3 Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues (pdf-?????????-s), I have a mischievous xerox of Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum 3 that is hiding from me in a dark corner of my office or home. Does anyone have a scan? Thanks for your help. ??????,J -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 21:04:00 2016 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 22:04:00 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here you are: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p7popmrrc4hkx5k/AACZ-eWcf3I7_8cpbvdGwRdIa?dl=0 Best. Manu Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis 2016-11-04 21:26 GMT+01:00 Jesse Knutson : > Dear Friends and Colleagues (pdf-?????????-s), I have a mischievous xerox > of Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum 3 that is hiding from me in a dark corner > of my office or home. Does anyone have a scan? Thanks for your help. > ??????,J > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Fri Nov 4 21:07:14 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 11:07:14 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so much Manu. That was so kind of you. I am always awed at how rapidly this group is able to circulate materials.Best,J On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Manu Francis wrote: > Here you are: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p7popmrrc4hkx5k/AACZ-eWcf3I7_8cpbvdGwRdIa?dl=0 > Best. > Manu > > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, > Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis > > 2016-11-04 21:26 GMT+01:00 Jesse Knutson : > >> Dear Friends and Colleagues (pdf-?????????-s), I have a mischievous >> xerox of Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum 3 that is hiding from me in a dark >> corner of my office or home. Does anyone have a scan? Thanks for your >> help. ??????,J >> >> -- >> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD >> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific >> Languages and Literatures >> University of Hawai'i at M?noa >> 461 Spalding >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu Fri Nov 4 22:59:03 2016 From: Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu (Michael Slouber) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 16 22:59:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] First female sovereign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <50C58FED-D5A2-43C7-BA7D-D25478855067@wwu.edu> Thanks to all who responded about India?s first female sovereign. I summarize the responses regarding queens who ruled in India before or contemporary to Razia Sultana: (counting regents) 1. N?g?nik?, 2nd century BC Satavahana empire 2. Prabh?vat? Gupta in the 4th--5th centuries, V?k??aka dynasty 3. Kulaprabh?vat?, 5th century Cambodia (outside of the Indian subcontinent, but good to know) (not counting regents) 1. Didd?, 10th?11th centuries Kashmir 2. Rudram? Dev?, 13th Century, K?kat?ya Dynasty I also appreciate the references to O. von Hinueber?s book, which may refer to others. ?? Michael Slouber Assistant Professor of South Asia Department of Liberal Studies Western Washington University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 06:41:41 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 16 12:11:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: drAviDa Veda concept is a different cultural process than the process of attempting to gain respect by claiming a certain cultural item to be Vedic either in the sense of being in Vedas or in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) part'. In 'drAviDa (in the sense of Tamil not at all in the sense of Dravidian) Veda' something which is not in Sanskrit or Vedic language is being called Veda itself not ' Vedic' . drAvida Veda is a concept of parallel Veda. It is a challenge to the idea that Veda has to be essentially in Vedic language or 'Vedic Sanskrit' recited with its svara system.'Parallel to Veda' is not counter to or alternative / substitute to the Veda. The concept of parallel Veda is that it is to be placed alongside the Veda with status equal to that of /to be respected equally as- the Veda. The significant difference between the recitation styles the Veda and the drAviDa Veda is that the former is pronounced with svara and has its own 'musical style' called sAma Veda while the latter is pronounced without svara and has two styles of recitation one the s'loka-like pronunciation and Tamil style musical rendering (e.g. tiruppAvai pAs'uram rendering in Bharata Natyam) On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:46 PM, George Hart wrote: > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. > The Srivaishnavas took the first-millennium hymns of the Divyaprabandham > and made them the ?Tamil Veda.? I?m not sure exactly when this happened, > but probably about the 10th or 11th millennium CE. The poems themselves > describe how moving they are when sung, but unfortunately in order to > stress their ?Vedic? status, they came to be recited like the Vedas, > mechanically and without the music, which must have been quite beautiful. > When recited in front of a deity, certain phonemes (I forget exactly which > ones) are changed to softer phonemes lest the reciter inadvertently pollute > the deity. Recitation of the Divyaprabandham is part of the worship in many > Vaishnava temples in the south, and its words are considered on a par with > those of the Vedas. The Divyaprabandham itself, which dates to the first > millennium CE, goes to great lengths to identify Vishnu worship with the > Vedas. George > > On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:43 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > Dear Patrick, > > I went to the website you directed us to. > > It is an ISKCON activity. > > It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which > is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. > > What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their > philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on > Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in > that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. > > The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The > word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the > cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) > part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, > Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > > It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for > such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. > > For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does > not add any new value. > > For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed > in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in > the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular > themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? >> >> yasya deve par? *bhaktir* yath? deve tath? gurau / >> tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // >> SvetUp_6.23 // >> >> >> I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following >> statement: >> >> *GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. * >> http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC >> >> While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought >> 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the >> bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >> >> As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate >> clarification. >> >> I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in >> their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >> legitimacy. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Nov 5 18:01:49 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 16 14:01:49 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patrick asked me to write some Sanskrit verses about Ludo Rocher. Here are a few: ??????-????-??????? ???????-???????????? ???????????????????? ? ?????????????????? ?? ??????????????: ?? ??????????????? ??????? ???????????????: ? ???????? ??????? ????? ??????? ???????????? ?? ?????????? ???????: ?????????????????: ? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????????????????: ?? ??????? ????????? ?????? ????????: ? ???????? ??????? ?????????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???????????? ????????? ????? ????? ? ? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ????: ?? ????????????? = Philadelphia, City of Brotherly Love ????????????? = Pennsylvania Madhav Deshpande Nov 5, 2016 Ann Arbor On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > This is a big loss especially to all those who were fortunate to have > been students of Ludo Rocher. He loved my daughters and was like a grand > father to them, during Manjushree's visit to Philadelphia. Shubhangi and I > visited him and Rosane at his home in Philadelphia a few years ago, and > experienced the continued warmth of his affection. He was a true Guru to > me. May he rest in peace. I have attached photo of Ludo and Rosane with > his students. > > Madhav > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Olivelle, J P > wrote: > >> Dear Friends: >> >> I just received the news from Rosane Rocher, that our teacher and friend, >> Ludo Rocher, passed away last night peacefully. I am sure we will have a >> more detailed tribute to him, but he was not just a great scholar but a >> humble and loving teacher and friend. >> >> With best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at fastmail.com Sun Nov 6 05:01:29 2016 From: rmahoney at fastmail.com (Richard Mahoney) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 16 18:01:29 +1300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Publication_Announcement:_The_bodhisattvam=C4=81rga_in_the_=C5=9Aik=E1=B9=A3=C4=81samuccaya?= Message-ID: <20161106180129.00004e54@fastmail.com> Dear Colleagues, Over the years there has been a constant demand for `The Progresse'. A hardback edition has therefore been put out, together with three ebook editions. For details please see: Of the progresse of the Bodhisattva: the bodhisattvam?rga in the ?ik??samuccaya / Richard Mahoney (Oxford: Indica et Buddhica, 2016) http://indica-et-buddhica.org/repositorium/santideva/siksasamuccaya-progresse-bodhisattva ISBN (Hardcover): 978-0-473-37538-6 (8.5 x 11 in, Case Laminate, 264pp.) Distributed by INGRAM and widely available ISBN (EPUB): 978-0-473-37948-3 (EPUB) Distributed by INGRAM and widely available ISBN (Kindle): 978-0-473-37539-3 (Kindle Print Replica Edition) ISBN (MOBI): 978-0-473-37949-0 (Kindle MOBI Edition) In Press: Soft cover (8.5 x 11 in, Perfect Bound, 264pp.) The original PDF which forms the basis for the printed edition remains freely available for download. With best regards, Richard -- Richard Mahoney | Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford New Zealand +64-3-312-1699 r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org From shrivara at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:06:35 2016 From: shrivara at gmail.com (Shrininivasa Varakhedi) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 16 22:36:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Text reading workshop on "Pramana Paddhati" a philosophical monograph on epistemology Message-ID: Dear colleagues, A text reading workshop on ?praam paddhati? a monograph on epistemology of realism, will be conducted from 1st to 10th of Feb 2017 in Bengaluru. The details are attached herewith. Please forward it to the interested students/researchers in the field of Philosophy/Darshanas. This workshop is fully supported by ICPR, New Delhi. with best regards, shrinivasa varakhedi Professor and Dean, KSU Academic Director of the workshop -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pramanapaddhati2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 153293 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:50:32 2016 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 16 11:50:32 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP: South Asian Book History Workshop, March 9-10 2017, Delhi Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Please find below (and attached as a pdf file) a call for papers for "Turning the Page: New Directions in South Asian Book History" to be held on March 9-10, 2017, at the University of Chicago Center in Delhi. The aim of the conference is to give young researchers at South Asian institutions-- including phd students and early-career faculty in colleges and universities across India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh-- an opportunity to share their work and receive feedback from peers. We hope to have a substantial contingent of scholars working on manuscript culture in South Asian languages (as well as print studies), so please circulate to colleagues and students that you think might be interested. Best, Tyler Williams University of Chicago Call for papers: *Turning the Page: New Directions in South Asian Book History* A two-day workshop at the University of Chicago Center in Delhi. March 9-10, 2017 In March 2017, the University of Chicago Center in Delhi will host a two-day workshop on South Asian book history organized jointly by members of the Dept. of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago, and Prof. Abhijit Gupta, Dept. of English, Jadavpur University, Kolkata. We invite early career scholars and researchers based in South Asia, as well as South Asian doctoral students currently completing their PhDs to submit proposals for the workshop. A presentation may be on any aspect of book history, from any period and in any language, as long as it pertains to the region of South Asia. Presentations that connect the book history of South Asia to other geographical and cultural regions are also encouraged. Over the past two decades, book history and print culture studies has become established as one of the most productive and dynamic fields of research within South Asian Studies, mirroring the rise of the History of the Book as a discipline in the global academy. South Asian book history has helped shape debates about the nature of the book, manuscript and print cultures, and the histories of writing and reading not only in the Indian subcontinent but also with regard to other regions and cultures. This workshop will bring together young researchers and established scholars working in both pre-modern and modern book history to share their work, assess the state of the discipline, and plot a course for future cooperative projects. *Format: * This two-day workshop will provide an opportunity for scholars to present their work and receive feedback from other participants. Individual presentations will last 30 minutes, followed by 15 minutes for discussion. Renowned South Asian bibliographer and book historian Graham Shaw will give the keynote address on the evening of March 9th. Presenting participants will receive domestic round-trip travel and two nights of accommodation in Delhi, as well as meals for the duration of the conference. *Proposals:* Proposals should be submitted no later than *25th November 2016*, and should include: 1) An abstract of no more than 500 words outlining your research presentation. 2) A current curriculum vitae. 3) A completed contact information form, available at the end of this document or at: http://home.uchicago.edu/~twwilliams/tww_uchicago/cfp_turning_page.pdf Please email these materials to Ishani Palandurkar at ishanip at uchicago.edu with ?Turning the Page Proposal? in the subject line. Proposals may also be sent via mail to the following address: University of Chicago Center Attn: Ishani Palandurkar DLF Capitol Point Baba Kharak Singh Marg New Delhi, India 110001 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cfp_turning_page.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 66968 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:56:43 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 00:26:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <90107614-d490-e0d9-2c2a-db730c27ac23@yorku.ca> Message-ID: > What shifts from the early to the later period is that in the early *mantra* period worshiping a deity was motivated by desire for outcomes?a practice that is consequentialist as consequentialism is the view that right procedure is justified by a good outcome. ------ Do you have the p?rvam?m?ms? in mind when you say "worshiping a deity was motivated by desire for outcomes" , or do you have internal evidences within the early mantra texts for this observation of yours? Mantras by themselves are stutis and we have both desire-expressing and non-desire-expressing stutis. To view all stuti as an indirect instruction to perform (ritual) with a desire for result is the p?rvam?m?ms? way of looking at the mantras. To view the same mantras/stutis as instructing (the practices for) m?k?a (e.g. Br.U.--> a?vam?dha mantras are instructions to do tapas) and as descriptions of Brahman is the uttaram?m?ms? (v?d?nta) way. Both the ways have their foundations in the non-upanishadic br?hma?a-?ra?yaka texts and upanishadic br?hma?a-?ra?yaka texts respectively. Leaving aside these two ways of *viewing, *the stuti aspect itself of the mantras can be seen to have continuity into the stutis/st?tras/sank?rtanas with bhakti label.These stutis/st?tras/sank?rtanas with bhakti label too have desire-expressing and non-desire-expressing tones and expressions. The cultural complex of which these stutis/st?tras/sank?rtanas with bhakti label make part, has the temple rituals and domestic p?j? rituals as part of it.Temple rituals and domestic p?j? rituals can be seen to have continuity from the yajna rituals, just as stutis/st?tras/sank?rtanas with bhakti label have their continuity from the stutis of the Veda mantras.To perform such rituals with a desire for result is also a part of that cultural complex. But to view all these texts and rituals as meaning and meant for moksha is what is called as Bhakti Vedanta. This view has its continuity from uttaram?m?ms? (v?d?nta) way of looking at the Veda mantras.To view the stutis/st?tras/sank?rtanas with bhakti label as meant for temple rituals and domestic p?j? rituals with a desire for result has its continuity from the p?rvam?m?ms? way of looking at the Veda mantras. Thus from both the p?rvam?m?ms? type and uttaram?m?ms? (v?d?nta) type perspectives, stutis/st?tras/sank?rtanas with bhakti label have a contiuity from the stutis of the Vedas. This is what makes the stutis of the Vedas to get viewed as the older form of or prototype of bhakti . On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > Dear Patrick , > > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the > 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra > section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs > etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya > Vaishnavism. > > A theme he emphasized is that the idea of bhakti, or binding oneself to a > deity, is pretty old in the Vedic tradition as the Mantras often express > sentiments of loyalty and fidelity to the deity that is invoked. > > What serves to bring the continuity of this theme to the fore is to follow > the development of Yoga, which is pretty much the same as Bhakti, as a > philosophical movement. > > The early mention of yoga of course is in the *Ka?ha * *Upani?ad* where > Yama describes success in Yoga as taking one to Vi??u?s realm. Later, this > idea of approximating the Lord becomes central to Yoga in Pata?jali?s *Yoga > S?tra* as *??vara* pra?idh?na. Ramanuja carries on this theme by > identifying bhakti as a kind of *j??na* but further a kind of *up?sana*, > which evokes images of meditation but also offerings to sacrificial fires. > This serves to highlight a continuity of a theme stretching back to the > early Vedas of the approximation of a deity via Vedic themes of sacrifice. > > What shifts from the early to the later period is that in the early > *mantra* period worshiping a deity was motivated by desire for outcomes?a > practice that is consequentialist as consequentialism is the view that > right procedure is justified by a good outcome. What happens by the time of > the *Upani?ad*s is that consequentialism starts to be viewed with > suspicion because, as Yama himself describes in the *Ka?ha Upani?ad*, > those who are geared towards outcomes do not take control of their life and > this results in ruin. So what we see happening is a switch to a radical > procedural ethics, that treats practice as defined by a regulative ideal, > the Lord, and the worship or approximation of this ideal as resulting in > the good. It is superficially like consequentialism but it is contrary. > This radical proceeduralism is Yoga, or Bhakti. The main difference is that > Yoga or Bhakti is a causal story of how the right brings about the good and > is the opposite of Virtue Ethics that claims that the good character brings > about the right action. Bhakti/Yoga rather claims that the right practice > is defined by the ideal of the right (the Lord) and perfecting this > practice is the good. Consequentialism in contrast is an account not of > moral causation but justification. > > So while the ideas that the bhakti tradition rely upon are ancient, and > not implausibly described as Vedic, it is true that there is a radical > shift that characterizes the latter part of the Vedic tradition starting > with the *Upani?ad*s. We see this transition from consequentialism to a > radical proceeduralism of bhakti as a theme of the *G?t?* , for instance. > I think it also explains why Brahman as development comes to occupy a > central place in later Vedic thought. > > If you are interested in this, I?ve written a bit about it: > > Ranganathan, S. (forthcoming) 2017. *Vedas and Upani**?ads*. In * Volume > 1: The History of Evil in Antiquity (2000BCE-450CE).* Edited by Tom > Angier. Of *History of Evil *edited by C. Taliaferro and C. Meister. > London: Routledge. > > For a wider survey of this tradition, please see > > Ranganathan, Shyam. 2017. 'Three Ved?ntas: Three Accounts of Character, > Freedom and Responsibility.' In *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of > Indian Ethics *edited by Shyam Ranganathan, 249-274. Of *Bloomsbury > Research Handbooks in Asian Philosophy, *edited by Chakravarthi > Ram-Prasad and Sor-hoon Tan. London: Bloomsbury Academic. > > If you are interested in how Bhakti/Yoga is a different moral theory from > Consequentialism, Deontology and Virtue Ethics, please see: > > Ranganathan, Shyam. 2017. 'Pata?jali?s Yoga: Universal Ethics as the > Formal Cause of Autonomy.' In *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian > Ethics *edited by Shyam Ranganathan, 177-202 Of *Bloomsbury Research > Handbooks in Asian Philosophy, *edited by Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad and > Sor-hoon Tan. London: Bloomsbury Academic. > > The latter two should be out in a couple of weeks. > > Best wishes, > > Shyam > > > > Shyam Ranganathan > > Department of Philosophy, > > South Asian Studies, Department of Social Sciences > > York University Toronto > > > > > On 04/11/2016 7:03 AM, Howard Resnick wrote: > > Nagaraj has stated the ?insider?s point of view? very well. I will add > that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and > the Gita is one of three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? > Best, > Howard > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > Dear Patrick, > > I went to the website you directed us to. > > It is an ISKCON activity. > > It is well known that ISKCON is based on Goudiya Vaishnava Vedanta which > is one of the Bhakti (centred) schools of Vedanta. > > What they are saying here is that GEV is based on their philosophy. Their > philosophy is a school of Vedanta and Vedanta is Vedic. So GEV is based on > Vedic Bhakti Vedanta is not wrong. The word Bhakti Yoga is used here in > that sense. So I don't see anything wrong in the word Vedic here. > > The word 'Vedic' is not always used in the sense of ' as in Vedas'. The > word is quite often used in the sense of 'belonging to the lineage of the > cultural/textual complex of which the Vedas are (of course, vital) > part. From the insider's point of view , Vaidika is Veda- aviruddha, > Veda-anuroopa, Veda-anusaari etc. not necessarily Vedochcharita/Vedas'ruta. > > It probably would be an interesting study to survey how far the pull for > such cults among people is based on their claims to be Vedic. > > For something which is already 'Hindu' , the claim of Vedic, I guess, does > not add any new value. > > For that matter , it is intriguing to see that pamphlets are distributed > in India, (at least here in the Telugu region) claiming that Jesus is in > the Vedas. 'Mohammed in the Vedas' is also one of the internet-popular > themes. It is interesting to study the motives behind such claims. > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:39 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? >> >> yasya deve par? *bhaktir* yath? deve tath? gurau / >> tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // >> SvetUp_6.23 // >> >> >> I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following >> statement: >> >> *GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. * >> http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC >> >> While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought >> 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the >> bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >> >> As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate >> clarification. >> >> I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in >> their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >> legitimacy. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 02:45:25 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 13:15:25 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to everyone who replied to my query about bhakti. There is a lot to think about and continue reading. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:39 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Is this the first mention of the term 'bhakti' ? > > yasya deve par? *bhaktir* yath? deve tath? gurau / > tasyaite kathit? hy arth?? prak??ante mah?tmana? prak??ante mah?tmana? // > SvetUp_6.23 // > > > I ask this question as I'm trying to understand the following statement: > > > > *GEV is based on the sacred Vedic principles of bhakti-yoga. * > > http://www.ecovillage.org.in/our-projects#_VEC > > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought > 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the > bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this > statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to > conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. > > > As I am certainly not an expert on bhakti I would appreciate > clarification. > > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in > their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and > legitimacy. > > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jneuss at makroskop.de Mon Nov 7 08:23:11 2016 From: jneuss at makroskop.de (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neu=C3=9F?=) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 09:23:11 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII VII,2 Message-ID: Dear friends, does someone have a .pdf of CII VII,2: TRIVEDI, Harihar Vitthal (1978) Inscriptions of the Paramaras, Chandellas, Kachchapaghatas and two minor dynasties. New Delhi: Archaeological Survey of India (CII VII/II), which (s)he would be willing to share? Thanks in advance, J?rgen -- *** Dr. J?rgen Neu? Zwinglistr. 40 10555 Berlin *** From manufrancis at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 10:48:41 2016 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 11:48:41 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII VII,2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/au7shx620kbf935/CII_7_2_Paramaras.pdf?dl=0 -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis 2016-11-07 9:23 GMT+01:00 J?rgen Neu? : > Dear friends, > > does someone have a .pdf of CII VII,2: > TRIVEDI, Harihar Vitthal (1978) Inscriptions of the Paramaras, Chandellas, > Kachchapaghatas and two minor dynasties. New Delhi: Archaeological Survey > of India (CII VII/II), which (s)he would be willing to share? > > Thanks in advance, > > J?rgen > > -- > *** > Dr. J?rgen Neu? > Zwinglistr. 40 > 10555 Berlin > *** > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jneuss at makroskop.de Mon Nov 7 11:06:58 2016 From: jneuss at makroskop.de (=?utf-8?Q?J=C3=BCrgen_Neu=C3=9F?=) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 12:06:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII VII,2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, thanks to the generousity of Gaia Pintucci and Manu Francis I have received the needed file almost immediately. All the best, J?rgen Neu? From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Nov 7 14:23:07 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 15:23:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Ludo Rocher (from Belgium) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202B717F-D571-44C0-AD44-B129E8A2A568@uclouvain.be> Forwarded message : > De: Winand Callewaert > Objet: RE: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher > > Sadness is not the main feeling overwhelming me now, but rather happiness, and pride, for having known Ludo as the scholar and gentleman he was, > an Indologist of the old school where knowledge of the language of texts was the most important. > He cannot be imitated, but he remains for me too an exemplar. > > Em. Prof. Dr Winand M. Callewaert > Faculty of Arts > Blijde Inkomststraat 21, 3318 > 3000 Leuven, Belgium > > http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/caies/wcal > Ludo Rocher: the Belgian years (extracted from the Foreword to the Festschrift for Professor Ludo Rocher [ed. R. W. Lariviere & R. Salomon], by Radha Burnier, ALB 51, 1987, completed with the CV which was formerly available at https://www.southasia.upenn.edu/people/ludo-rocher, and Rosane Rocher's testimony ? could somebody provide me with his complete bibliography in electronic form?) Ludo Rocher was born on April 25, 1926 in Hemiksem (Antwerp) Belgium, the son of Julianus Rocher and Anna Van den Bogaert - Rocher. He attended the University of Ghent, where he received the degrees of M.A. in Classics with a minor in Sanskrit in 1948, Dr. Jur. in 1950, and Ph.D. in Indian Studies 1952 under his teacher, Adriaan Scharp? (http://dutchstudies-satsea.nl/auteur/94/AdriaanAlberikMaria-Scharp.html ). During this period he also studied at the University of Utrecht in 1948-49 where he read Vedic with Jan Gonda (http://dutchstudies-satsea.nl/auteur/116/Jan-Gonda.html ), and at the School of Oriental and African Studies of London University in 1952 where he studied Sanskrit with C.A. Rylands, Hindi with John Burton Page, and Hindu Law and the Indian Constitution with Alan Gledhill. >From 1952 to 1958, he was a Research Fellow of the Belgian National Science Foundation; during this period he privately studied technical Sanskrit literature (m?m??s?, ny?ya and vy?kara?a) with Barend Faddegon, em. prof. at the University of Amsterdam (http://dutchstudies-satsea.nl/auteur/56/Barend-Faddegon.html ), and he did research in Poona (from 1953 to 1955) where he studied with Pandit T. S. Srinivasa Sastri at the Deccan College. He got his Habilitation degree (agr?gation) at the University of Ghent in 1956, on the basis of his critical edition with annotated translation of the Vyavah?racint?ma?i by V?caspati Mi?ra: A Digest on Hindu Legal Procedure, issued in the Gentse Orientalische Bijdragen series. He worked as agr?g? at the University of Ghent in 1958-59. In 1959 was appointed to the faculty of the Free University of Brussels as Professor of Sanskrit and Comparative Philology, serving at the ranks of Assistant Professor (1959), Associate Professor (1962), and Professor (1964). His primary appointment, from 1959 to 1967, was to teach Greek, Latin, and Comparative Linguistics in the Flemish section of the then single ULB/VUB; in addition, he taught Sanskrit in the Institut de Philologie et d'Histoire orientales et slaves in the French section, and also other courses such as Indian art history and Indian political science. He married Rosane Debels - Rocher on April 1, 1961. Born in a French-speaking family of Mouscron, she was at that time concluding a master's degree (licence) in Indo-Iranian studies (she was already licenci?e in Classics, 1959) at the Free University of Brussels (where she started her doctoral researches later in the same year 1961, as Research Fellow of the FNRS). >From 1961 to 1967 he was also director of the Center for the Study of South and Southeast Asia at the Institut Solvay (Institute of sociology) of the ULB/VUB. The Ford Foundation invited him in this capacity in 1962 to tour the Centers for South and Southeast Asia in universities in the United States. In 1965 he was visiting Professor of Hindu Law at the SOAS. He was the first non-Africanist to be elected to the Belgian Royal Academy of Overseas Sciences (1965). In 1966, he was appointed Professor of Sanskrit in the Department of Oriental Studies of the University of Pennsylvania. In June 6, 1972 he became (along with Rosane) an American citizen. In January, 1976 he served as Visiting Professor at Louvain (KU Leuven). He and his wife occasionally came back to Belgium for visiting family. One of his last visits was in October 2010 (the mother of Rosane was then 107 years old), when he and Rosane were travelling throughout Europe for carrying researches in various libraries and archives in preparation of their last joint historiographical works. With best wishes, Christophe Vielle ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From florindadesimini at rocketmail.com Mon Nov 7 21:14:39 2016 From: florindadesimini at rocketmail.com (Florinda De Simini) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 16 22:14:39 +0100 Subject: Publication announcement: "Of Gods and Books. Ritual and Knowledge Transmission in the Manuscript Cultures of Premodern India" Message-ID: Dear members of the list, I am very happy to share with you the news about the publication of my book, ?Of Gods and Books. Ritual and Knowledge Transmission in the Manuscript Cultures of Premodern India?. Berlin, De Gruyter. Studies in Manuscript Cultures vol. 8. Since this monograph series is sponsored by a generous grant of the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft, the PDF file of this book is available for free download from the website of the publishing house at the following link: https://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/472498 . If you navigate to ?Table of Contents?, you will be able to see and download the files of all the chapters and sections of the work. Moreover, from this link ? https://www.degruyter.com/view/serial/43546 ? you will be able to access the full list of titles and the PDF files of the 9 monographs that have so far appeared in this series, including a good numbers of contributions in the field of Indological and Tibetological studies, both monographs and articles in edited volumes. Thank you for your attention! Best regards, Florinda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 00:31:12 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 11:01:12 +1030 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_an=C4=81hata_cakra?= Message-ID: Dear Friends, A yoga-teacher friend of mine just showed me a highly embellished picture of the yantra for an?hata cakra. I have attached the picture. As you can see, all of the 12 petals are represented with their b?ja sounds, however, instead of ??, the second petal has ? ??. I'm curious to know if this is a mistake on the artists behalf or is it an alternative b?ja mantra, if so, why, and is there any textual source as to why this alternative symbol might be used. Thank you. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 00:43:26 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 11:13:26 +1030 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_an=C4=81hata_cakra?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apparently the file was not available to some people. Here it is below. [image: Inline image 1] > Dear Friends, > > A yoga-teacher friend of mine just showed me a highly embellished picture > of the yantra for an?hata cakra. I have attached the picture. As you can > see, all of the 12 petals are represented with their b?ja sounds, however, > instead of ??, the second petal has ? ??. I'm curious to know if this is a > mistake on the artists behalf or is it an alternative b?ja mantra, if so, > why, and is there any textual source as to why this alternative symbol > might be used. > Thank you. > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 01:09:43 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 06:39:43 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The *Vi?vaprak??a* lists one of the meanings of *ya??i* as flagstaff ( *dhvajada??a*, as opposed to a simple staff or *da??a*). *ya??irh?ralat??astrabhedayordhvajada??ake* (*?advikam*, verse 23) Unless a usage or *Ko?a* citation can be traced, the meaning of ?sacrifice? given by B?htlingk for the word *ya??i *needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The Ny?sa, a commentary on the K??ik?, has the example as *k?mi??im* and not *k?? ya??i? *(see attached) under A 3.3.110. For the ?sacrifice? meaning, one needs a suffix in *bh?va. ktin *is such a suffix, but due to A 6.1.15 (*vacisvapiyaj?d?n?? kiti*), *yaj* + *ktin *will result in *i??i*. It is possible that there was a scribal error or an error on part of B?htlingk which led to *k?mi??im* being mistaken as *k?? ya??i? *in the commentary he referred to. The *?abdakalpadruma* has this to say on the derivation of *ya??i*: *yaj* + *b?hulak?t ti?*, *iti u??div?ttau ujjvaladatta?* (4.179). This makes sense, as with *ti?* the *sampras?ra?a* by A 6.1.15 would not take place. On 29 October 2016 at 23:35, Harry Spier wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Corinna Wessels-Mevissen > Date: Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:31 AM > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya > To: Harry Spier > > > > > Hello Harry Spier, > > I did my PhD on the early iconography of the a??adikp?las (book is > available on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/30295 > 35/The_Gods_of_the_Directions_in_Ancient_India_Origin_and_ > Early_Development_in_Art_and_Literature_until_c._1000_A.D._), and V?yu is > very often seen as holding a flagstaff. This is in fact his most prominent > attribute. As far as I remember, *ya??i* was not mentioned in those > texts, but only dhvaja or pat?k?, and the respective images show the god > with a banner ? mostly with the flag portion being a long streamer. > > Hope this helps somehow. > > Corinna Wessels-Mevissen > ------------------------------ > *Von:* Harry Spier > *An:* Indology > *Gesendet:* 2:22 Samstag, 29.Oktober 2016 > *Betreff:* [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya > > Dear list members: > > A g?yatr? mantra mantra to V?yu is: > sarvapr???ya vidmahe > ya??ihast?ya dh?mahi > tan no v?yu? pracoday?t > I've seen a translation of ya??ihast?ya as "holding the mace" but are > statues or pictoral representations of V?yu, and if so with a mace? > but Monier-Williams also has a meaning of ya??i as "sacrificing" which he > says comes from a commentator on Panini 3-3-110 . > By any chance could someone point out the commentator and point me to the > passage MW refers to. > Also based on that definition of ya??i does a translation of ya??ihast?ya > as "to the one who sacrifices with his hands" make sense. refering to the > wind fanning the flames of the sacrifice. > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Tue Nov 8 06:09:55 2016 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 07:09:55 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I could not trace the meaning ?sacrifice? anywhere in Boethlingk. He himself presumed that *ya??i* might be an error for the correct word formation *i??i* (in the text available to him at the time). Later, in his second Petrograde Dictionary (pw) he explicitly points to the erroneous reading of *ya??i *by stating "richtig" ("correct") is *i??i*. PW 2. *ya??i* f. nom. act. von 1. *yaj* P. 3, 3, 110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft f?r *i??i*. (MW?s translation) sacrificing P??. 3-3, 110 Sch. (prob. w.r. for i??i). (pw) 2. *ya??i* f. Nom. act. von 1. *yaj*. Richtig *i??i*. *ya??i *in the meaning of sacrifice was however recorded by Edgerton in Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit usage: (Edgerton) 1. *ya??i* f. sacrifice. Mvu iii.145.20; (= Skt *i??i*) Best, WS ----------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar Deutschland 2016-11-08 2:09 GMT+01:00 Nityanand Misra : > The *Vi?vaprak??a* lists one of the meanings of *ya??i* as flagstaff ( > *dhvajada??a*, as opposed to a simple staff or *da??a*). > *ya??irh?ralat??astrabhedayordhvajada??ake* (*?advikam*, verse 23) > > Unless a usage or *Ko?a* citation can be traced, the meaning of > ?sacrifice? given by B?htlingk for the word *ya??i *needs to be taken > with a grain of salt. The Ny?sa, a commentary on the K??ik?, has the > example as *k?mi??im* and not *k?? ya??i? *(see attached) under A > 3.3.110. For the ?sacrifice? meaning, one needs a suffix in *bh?va. ktin *is > such a suffix, but due to A 6.1.15 (*vacisvapiyaj?d?n?? kiti*), *yaj* + > *ktin *will result in *i??i*. It is possible that there was a scribal > error or an error on part of B?htlingk which led to *k?mi??im* being > mistaken as *k?? ya??i? *in the commentary he referred to. > > The *?abdakalpadruma* has this to say on the derivation of *ya??i*: *yaj* > + *b?hulak?t ti?*, *iti u??div?ttau ujjvaladatta?* (4.179). This makes > sense, as with *ti?* the *sampras?ra?a* by A 6.1.15 would not take place. > > On 29 October 2016 at 23:35, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Corinna Wessels-Mevissen >> Date: Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya >> To: Harry Spier >> >> >> >> >> Hello Harry Spier, >> >> I did my PhD on the early iconography of the a??adikp?las (book is >> available on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/30295 >> 35/The_Gods_of_the_Directions_in_Ancient_India_Origin_and_Ea >> rly_Development_in_Art_and_Literature_until_c._1000_A.D._), and V?yu is >> very often seen as holding a flagstaff. This is in fact his most prominent >> attribute. As far as I remember, *ya??i* was not mentioned in those >> texts, but only dhvaja or pat?k?, and the respective images show the god >> with a banner ? mostly with the flag portion being a long streamer. >> >> Hope this helps somehow. >> >> Corinna Wessels-Mevissen >> ------------------------------ >> *Von:* Harry Spier >> *An:* Indology >> *Gesendet:* 2:22 Samstag, 29.Oktober 2016 >> *Betreff:* [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya >> >> Dear list members: >> >> A g?yatr? mantra mantra to V?yu is: >> sarvapr???ya vidmahe >> ya??ihast?ya dh?mahi >> tan no v?yu? pracoday?t >> I've seen a translation of ya??ihast?ya as "holding the mace" but are >> statues or pictoral representations of V?yu, and if so with a mace? >> but Monier-Williams also has a meaning of ya??i as "sacrificing" which >> he says comes from a commentator on Panini 3-3-110 . >> By any chance could someone point out the commentator and point me to >> the passage MW refers to. >> Also based on that definition of ya??i does a translation of ya??ihast?ya >> as "to the one who sacrifices with his hands" make sense. refering to the >> wind fanning the flames of the sacrifice. >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 07:05:41 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 12:35:41 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies, I should have been more careful and used the gerund form *sacrificing* instead of *sacrifice *in my mail. Not that it matters, but is there a big difference between the two? Monier-Williams seems to use both synomously, as he lists both forms in the same meaning under ?????. [p= 169,3] [L=29650] f. sacrificing , sacrifice So B?htlingk did remove the reference to A 3.3.110 in the second edition, and the Monier-Williams translation of the original meaning persists even in the 2008 revision! But why did B?htlingk still have a meaning for *ya??i* as *nom. act. von *(*nomen abstractum* from?) *yaj*, instead of removing the meaning altogether if he was sure that the reading was erroneous? What does this mean? On 8 November 2016 at 11:39, Walter Slaje wrote: > I could not trace the meaning ?sacrifice? anywhere in Boethlingk. He > himself presumed that *ya??i* might be an error for the correct word > formation *i??i* (in the text available to him at the time). Later, in > his second Petrograde Dictionary (pw) he explicitly points to the > erroneous reading of *ya??i *by stating "richtig" ("correct") is *i??i*. > > > > PW > > 2. *ya??i* f. nom. act. von 1. *yaj* P. 3, 3, 110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft > f?r *i??i*. > > > > (MW?s translation) > > sacrificing P??. 3-3, 110 Sch. (prob. w.r. for i??i). > > > > (pw) > > 2. *ya??i* f. Nom. act. von 1. *yaj*. Richtig *i??i*. > > > > *ya??i *in the meaning of sacrifice was however recorded by Edgerton in > Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit usage: > > (Edgerton) > > 1. *ya??i* f. sacrifice. Mvu iii.145.20; (= Skt *i??i*) > > > > Best, > > WS > > > > ----------------------------- > Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje > Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar > Deutschland > > > 2016-11-08 2:09 GMT+01:00 Nityanand Misra : > >> The *Vi?vaprak??a* lists one of the meanings of *ya??i* as flagstaff ( >> *dhvajada??a*, as opposed to a simple staff or *da??a*). >> *ya??irh?ralat??astrabhedayordhvajada??ake* (*?advikam*, verse 23) >> >> Unless a usage or *Ko?a* citation can be traced, the meaning of >> ?sacrifice? given by B?htlingk for the word *ya??i *needs to be taken >> with a grain of salt. The Ny?sa, a commentary on the K??ik?, has the >> example as *k?mi??im* and not *k?? ya??i? *(see attached) under A >> 3.3.110. For the ?sacrifice? meaning, one needs a suffix in *bh?va. ktin >> *is such a suffix, but due to A 6.1.15 (*vacisvapiyaj?d?n?? kiti*), *yaj* >> + *ktin *will result in *i??i*. It is possible that there was a scribal >> error or an error on part of B?htlingk which led to *k?mi??im* being >> mistaken as *k?? ya??i? *in the commentary he referred to. >> >> The *?abdakalpadruma* has this to say on the derivation of *ya??i*: *yaj* >> + *b?hulak?t ti?*, *iti u??div?ttau ujjvaladatta?* (4.179). This makes >> sense, as with *ti?* the *sampras?ra?a* by A 6.1.15 would not take >> place. >> >> On 29 October 2016 at 23:35, Harry Spier >> wrote: >> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Corinna Wessels-Mevissen >>> Date: Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:31 AM >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya >>> To: Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Harry Spier, >>> >>> I did my PhD on the early iconography of the a??adikp?las (book is >>> available on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/30295 >>> 35/The_Gods_of_the_Directions_in_Ancient_India_Origin_and_Ea >>> rly_Development_in_Art_and_Literature_until_c._1000_A.D._), and V?yu is >>> very often seen as holding a flagstaff. This is in fact his most prominent >>> attribute. As far as I remember, *ya??i* was not mentioned in those >>> texts, but only dhvaja or pat?k?, and the respective images show the god >>> with a banner ? mostly with the flag portion being a long streamer. >>> >>> Hope this helps somehow. >>> >>> Corinna Wessels-Mevissen >>> ------------------------------ >>> *Von:* Harry Spier >>> *An:* Indology >>> *Gesendet:* 2:22 Samstag, 29.Oktober 2016 >>> *Betreff:* [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya >>> >>> Dear list members: >>> >>> A g?yatr? mantra mantra to V?yu is: >>> sarvapr???ya vidmahe >>> ya??ihast?ya dh?mahi >>> tan no v?yu? pracoday?t >>> I've seen a translation of ya??ihast?ya as "holding the mace" but are >>> statues or pictoral representations of V?yu, and if so with a mace? >>> but Monier-Williams also has a meaning of ya??i as "sacrificing" which >>> he says comes from a commentator on Panini 3-3-110 . >>> By any chance could someone point out the commentator and point me to >>> the passage MW refers to. >>> Also based on that definition of ya??i does a translation of >>> ya??ihast?ya as "to the one who sacrifices with his hands" make sense. >>> refering to the wind fanning the flames of the sacrifice. >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- Nity?nanda Mi?ra http://nmisra.googlepages.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slaje at kabelmail.de Tue Nov 8 09:20:30 2016 From: slaje at kabelmail.de (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 10:20:30 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am very sorry, but I don't quite understand under what entry of ya??i Boehtlingk would indicate any such meanings as sacrifice or sacrificing? He carefully distinguishes ya??i (1) from ya??i (2). He indicates meanings for ya??i (1) (the flagstaff semantics), but circumspectively avoids to assign a meaning to ya??i (2), as he considers the latter a mere (scribal or printing or transmissional) error for i??i. As a wrong word formation / wrong reading, it is not supposed to connote a reliable meaning. Therefore he avoided to give one. Boethlingk deliberately removed almost all textual references from his second edition with a view to saving space for more entries as a result of adapting it to the then current state of research. This is why the second edition contains more lemmata and additional meanings as compared to the first one. The first one, on the other hand, is packed with textual references. Regards, WS 2016-11-08 8:05 GMT+01:00 Nityanand Misra : > > Apologies, I should have been more careful and used the gerund form > *sacrificing* instead of *sacrifice *in my mail. Not that it matters, but > is there a big difference between the two? Monier-Williams seems to use > both synomously, as he lists both forms in the same meaning under ?????. > [p= 169,3] [L=29650] f. sacrificing , sacrifice > > So B?htlingk did remove the reference to A 3.3.110 in the second edition, > and the Monier-Williams translation of the original meaning persists even > in the 2008 revision! But why did B?htlingk still have a meaning for > *ya??i* as *nom. act. von *(*nomen abstractum* from?) *yaj*, instead of > removing the meaning altogether if he was sure that the reading was > erroneous? What does this mean? > > > On 8 November 2016 at 11:39, Walter Slaje wrote: > >> I could not trace the meaning ?sacrifice? anywhere in Boethlingk. He >> himself presumed that *ya??i* might be an error for the correct word >> formation *i??i* (in the text available to him at the time). Later, in >> his second Petrograde Dictionary (pw) he explicitly points to the >> erroneous reading of *ya??i *by stating "richtig" ("correct") is *i??i*. >> >> >> >> PW >> >> 2. *ya??i* f. nom. act. von 1. *yaj* P. 3, 3, 110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft >> f?r *i??i*. >> >> >> >> (MW?s translation) >> >> sacrificing P??. 3-3, 110 Sch. (prob. w.r. for i??i). >> >> >> >> (pw) >> >> 2. *ya??i* f. Nom. act. von 1. *yaj*. Richtig *i??i*. >> >> >> >> *ya??i *in the meaning of sacrifice was however recorded by Edgerton in >> Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit usage: >> >> (Edgerton) >> >> 1. *ya??i* f. sacrifice. Mvu iii.145.20; (= Skt *i??i*) >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> WS >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje >> Hermann-L?ns-Str. 1 >> D-99425 Weimar >> Deutschland >> >> >> 2016-11-08 2:09 GMT+01:00 Nityanand Misra : >> >>> The *Vi?vaprak??a* lists one of the meanings of *ya??i* as flagstaff ( >>> *dhvajada??a*, as opposed to a simple staff or *da??a*). >>> *ya??irh?ralat??astrabhedayordhvajada??ake* (*?advikam*, verse 23) >>> >>> Unless a usage or *Ko?a* citation can be traced, the meaning of >>> ?sacrifice? given by B?htlingk for the word *ya??i *needs to be taken >>> with a grain of salt. The Ny?sa, a commentary on the K??ik?, has the >>> example as *k?mi??im* and not *k?? ya??i? *(see attached) under A >>> 3.3.110. For the ?sacrifice? meaning, one needs a suffix in *bh?va. ktin >>> *is such a suffix, but due to A 6.1.15 (*vacisvapiyaj?d?n?? kiti*), >>> *yaj* + *ktin *will result in *i??i*. It is possible that there was a >>> scribal error or an error on part of B?htlingk which led to *k?mi??im* being >>> mistaken as *k?? ya??i? *in the commentary he referred to. >>> >>> The *?abdakalpadruma* has this to say on the derivation of *ya??i*: >>> *yaj* + *b?hulak?t ti?*, *iti u??div?ttau ujjvaladatta?* (4.179). This >>> makes sense, as with *ti?* the *sampras?ra?a* by A 6.1.15 would not >>> take place. >>> >>> On 29 October 2016 at 23:35, Harry Spier >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Corinna Wessels-Mevissen >>>> Date: Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:31 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya >>>> To: Harry Spier >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Harry Spier, >>>> >>>> I did my PhD on the early iconography of the a??adikp?las (book is >>>> available on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/30295 >>>> 35/The_Gods_of_the_Directions_in_Ancient_India_Origin_and_Ea >>>> rly_Development_in_Art_and_Literature_until_c._1000_A.D._), and V?yu >>>> is very often seen as holding a flagstaff. This is in fact his most >>>> prominent attribute. As far as I remember, *ya??i* was not mentioned >>>> in those texts, but only dhvaja or pat?k?, and the respective images show >>>> the god with a banner ? mostly with the flag portion being a long streamer. >>>> >>>> Hope this helps somehow. >>>> >>>> Corinna Wessels-Mevissen >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Von:* Harry Spier >>>> *An:* Indology >>>> *Gesendet:* 2:22 Samstag, 29.Oktober 2016 >>>> *Betreff:* [INDOLOGY] Translation of ya??ihastaya >>>> >>>> Dear list members: >>>> >>>> A g?yatr? mantra mantra to V?yu is: >>>> sarvapr???ya vidmahe >>>> ya??ihast?ya dh?mahi >>>> tan no v?yu? pracoday?t >>>> I've seen a translation of ya??ihast?ya as "holding the mace" but are >>>> statues or pictoral representations of V?yu, and if so with a mace? >>>> but Monier-Williams also has a meaning of ya??i as "sacrificing" which >>>> he says comes from a commentator on Panini 3-3-110 . >>>> By any chance could someone point out the commentator and point me to >>>> the passage MW refers to. >>>> Also based on that definition of ya??i does a translation of >>>> ya??ihast?ya as "to the one who sacrifices with his hands" make sense. >>>> refering to the wind fanning the flames of the sacrifice. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Harry Spier >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nity?nanda Mi?ra >>> http://nmisra.googlepages.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > > > -- > Nity?nanda Mi?ra > http://nmisra.googlepages.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 09:45:16 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 15:15:16 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8 November 2016 at 14:50, Walter Slaje wrote: > I am very sorry, but I don't quite understand under what entry of ya??i > Boehtlingk would indicate any such meanings as sacrifice or sacrificing? > He carefully distinguishes ya??i (1) from ya??i (2). He indicates meanings > for ya??i (1) (the flagstaff semantics), but circumspectively avoids to > assign a meaning to ya??i (2), as he considers the latter a mere (scribal > or printing or transmissional) error for i??i. As a wrong word formation / > wrong reading, it is not supposed to connote a reliable meaning. Therefore > he avoided to give one. > > *PW: f. nom. act. von 1. yaj P. 3,3,110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft f?r i??i. * *pw: f. nom. act. von 1. yaj. Richtig i??i. * Does *f. nom. act. von 1. yaj* (saying that a word is an abstract noun from a specific root) not indicate/suggest a meaning? If it did not hint at the meaning of *sacrificing/sacrifice*, how did the Monier-Williams dictionary entries, supposedly based on the above entries, end up as the following? Did M-W get the meaning from another source? *MW: sacrificing, (perhaps incorrect for 3. ish?i.)* *mw: sacrificing, P??. iii. 3, 110, Sch. (prob. w. r. for ish?i)* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Tue Nov 8 11:20:56 2016 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 12:20:56 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20161108122056.Horde.XdhOltyng99CMacmbFgRbsI@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> > *PW: f. nom. act. von 1. yaj P. 3,3,110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft f?r i??i. * > *pw: f. nom. act. von 1. yaj. Richtig i??i. * > Does *f. nom. act. von 1. yaj* (saying that a word is an abstract > noun from a specific root) not indicate/suggest a meaning? It means that the correct word is i??i (and not ya??i, the reading of Boehtlinkg's source) which has the meaning "sacrificing". (By the way: "nom. act." = "nomen actionis" = "action noun" -> ktin). > If it did not hint at the meaning of *sacrificing/sacrifice*, how > did the Monier-Williams dictionary > entries, supposedly based on the above entries, end up as the > following? Did M-W get the meaning from another source? > *MW: sacrificing, (perhaps incorrect for 3. ish?i.)* > *mw: sacrificing, P??. iii. 3, 110, Sch. (prob. w. r. for ish?i)* -- PW Vol. 1 (published 1852-55), s.v. 2. i??i (von yaj) "f. Opferung, Opfer P. 3, 3, 95, V?rtt. 1. AK. 3, 4, 41. [...]" "Opferung, Opfer" means "sacrificing, sacrifice". -- PW Vol. 6 (1868-1871), s.v. 2. ya??i "f. nom. act. von 1. yaj P. 3, 3, 110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft f?r i??i." -- MW (1872), s.v. 3. ish?i, is, f. "sacrificing, sacrifice [...]" -- MW (1872), s.v. 1. yash?i, is, f.: "sacrificing, (perhaps incorrect for 3. ish?i.)" -- pw Vol. 1 (1879), s.v. 3. i??i: "f. Opfer [...]" -- pw Vol. 4 (1883), s.v. 2 *ya??i: "f. Nom. act. von 1. yaj. Richtig i??i." - MW (1899), s.v. 3. i??i: "f. sacrificing, sacrifice" -- MW (1899), s.v. 1. ya??i: f. "sacrificing P??. iii, 3, 110 Sch. (prob. w.r. for i??i). Best, Roland Steiner From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:27:46 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 18:57:46 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Translation_of_ya=E1=B9=A3=E1=B9=ADihastaya?= In-Reply-To: <20161108122056.Horde.XdhOltyng99CMacmbFgRbsI@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: Could anyone inform me about the publication of the Aangirasakalpa Best DB On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Roland Steiner wrote: > >> *PW: f. nom. act. von 1. yaj P. 3,3,110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft f?r i??i. * >> *pw: f. nom. act. von 1. yaj. Richtig i??i. * > > >> Does *f. nom. act. von 1. yaj* (saying that a word is an abstract noun >> from a specific root) not indicate/suggest a meaning? > > > It means that the correct word is i??i (and not ya??i, the reading of > Boehtlinkg's source) which has the meaning "sacrificing". (By the way: "nom. > act." = "nomen actionis" = "action noun" -> ktin). > > >> If it did not hint at the meaning of *sacrificing/sacrifice*, how did the >> Monier-Williams dictionary >> entries, supposedly based on the above entries, end up as the following? >> Did M-W get the meaning from another source? > > >> *MW: sacrificing, (perhaps incorrect for 3. ish?i.)* >> *mw: sacrificing, P??. iii. 3, 110, Sch. (prob. w. r. for ish?i)* > > > > -- PW Vol. 1 (published 1852-55), s.v. 2. i??i (von yaj) "f. Opferung, Opfer > P. 3, 3, 95, V?rtt. 1. AK. 3, 4, 41. [...]" > > "Opferung, Opfer" means "sacrificing, sacrifice". > > -- PW Vol. 6 (1868-1871), s.v. 2. ya??i "f. nom. act. von 1. yaj P. 3, 3, > 110, Sch. wohl fehlerhaft f?r i??i." > > -- MW (1872), s.v. 3. ish?i, is, f. "sacrificing, sacrifice [...]" > > -- MW (1872), s.v. 1. yash?i, is, f.: "sacrificing, (perhaps incorrect for > 3. ish?i.)" > > -- pw Vol. 1 (1879), s.v. 3. i??i: "f. Opfer [...]" > > -- pw Vol. 4 (1883), s.v. 2 *ya??i: "f. Nom. act. von 1. yaj. Richtig i??i." > > - MW (1899), s.v. 3. i??i: "f. sacrificing, sacrifice" > > -- MW (1899), s.v. 1. ya??i: f. "sacrificing P??. iii, 3, 110 Sch. (prob. > w.r. for i??i). > > > Best, > > Roland Steiner > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Nov 8 15:02:38 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 10:02:38 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digitized volumes of the Journal of Bombay Asiatic Society Message-ID: Hello Indologists, Take a look at the following message and the links provided by Mr. Shankara: On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 2:14 AM, 'shankara' via ??????????????????? < bvparishat at googlegroups.com> wrote: Namaste, Complete collection of back issues of Journal of Bombay Asiatic Society, old and new series, is now available online at the Links given below. Old Series (1841 to 1924) http://www.aiktcdspace.org:808 0/jspui/handle/123456789/1214/ New Series (1925 to 2012) http://www.aiktcdspace.org:808 0/jspui/handle/123456789/1215/ regards shankara Madhav Deshpande -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Tue Nov 8 18:29:38 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 19:29:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <58221992.2000909@uni-muenchen.de> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As with so many things, it is context-sensitive. patrick mccartney wrote: > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For instance, Howard Resnick wrote: > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya Vaishnavism. If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as George Hart wrote: > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti can be called ?Vedic? or not.) Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, later meanings. But if you say > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the world is shuddering?). RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Department f?r Asienstudien Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) From hellwig7 at gmx.de Tue Nov 8 20:23:34 2016 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (hellwig7 at gmx.de) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 16 21:23:34 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit translations and parallel corpora In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7361C55C666F4B1B9BB178847405C02D@OliverHP> Dear list members, for a project dealing with the Rigveda, we want to transfer syntactic structures and other linguistic information from parallel texts (= translations) in English and other modern languages to Sanskrit texts. So, for example, (1) we have a Sanskrit sentence X and its English translation Y, (2) we run a syntactic parser on the English sentence Y, (3) and transfer any detected structures to the Sanskrit sentence X. Sounds a bit exotic, but works surprisingly well for many languages. What we really need right now, are parallel digital corpora that provide an English (German, French) translation for each Sanskrit sentence (or at least for comparatively small text parts). Are you aware of any such **digital** resources? Text genre is not that important, but the older, the better. And they should preferably be massive in size. Best, Oliver ---- Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, University of D?sseldorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 00:27:59 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 10:57:59 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <58221992.2000909@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: Robert, The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism ', 'Vedic socialism ' and 'Vedic communism ' to be amongst my favourites. I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book ? All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from > the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap > of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As > with so many things, it is context-sensitive. > > patrick mccartney wrote: > > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought > 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the > bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this > statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to > conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. > > Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a series > of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of the word > in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For instance, > > Howard Resnick wrote: > > > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, > bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of > the ?Vedanta apparatus.? > > Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > > > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the > 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra > section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs > etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya > Vaishnavism. > > If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even > ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a > word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as > ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as > > George Hart wrote: > > > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. > > Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word > ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and > means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be > careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the > religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart > refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, > but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti > can be called ?Vedic? or not.) > > Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s > Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? > is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? > (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, > later meanings. But if you say > > > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, > and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. > > then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled ?bhakti?, > and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly reads the > Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that later > ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. The same > goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. > > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in > their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and > legitimacy. > > It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to > ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas > and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some > imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal > favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). > > The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special > halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, > mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This > sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be > ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what > democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the > world is shuddering?). > > RZ > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Department f?r Asienstudien > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 01:49:41 2016 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (dhaval patel) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 07:19:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit translations and parallel corpora In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Respected Prof. Hellwig, https://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/ and http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ seem to have huge translation texts, which may be of use to you. e.g. gitasupersite has some Sanskrit commentaries and translation of those commentaries as well e.g. Abhinavagupta's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 02:49:21 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 08:19:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Robert, >It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. > The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). ------- Not after Arya Samaj and other organizations similar to that which are in vogue in huge numbers today. Traditionally, a potter had an exclusive right cum responsibility for the production of pots, a liquor-maker had an exclusive right cum responsibility for making liquor, a washer-man had an exclusive right cum responsibility to wash cloths, why, even a performer of a particular folk performing art had an exclusive right cum responsibility for the performance of the particular folk performing art. People moving away from their traditional caste occupations (right cum responsibility occupations) is happening for all those occupations which are no longer givers of either a worldly benefit or a social status. Number of Brahmin families moving away from their Vedaadhyayana and Vedaadhyaapana is on huge rise. Priestly Brahmins are depressed that they are not able to get marriage alliances. Dear Patrick, All the usages of the adjective 'Vedic' do not indicate the same cultural process. Academicians need to discern such differences carefully. 1. 'Vedic ' in Vedic astrology is used to distinguish it from the western astrology. Choice of 'Vedic' in preference to 'Hindu' seems to be to avoid a religious 'sectarian' image. 2. 'Vedic' in 'Vedic capitalism', 'Vedic socialism', 'Vedic communism' is in fact the opposite of the process that was proposed by your thread initiating post. Your initiating post was proposing an attempt to acquire legitimacy to the entity described by the qualified noun by the use of the adjective 'Vedic'. But in the case of 'Vedic capitalism', 'Vedic socialism', 'Vedic communism' , it can not be said that '' capitalism', ' socialism', ' communism' are not intended to get legitimacy by the use of the adjective 'Vedic'. In fact , the attempt here is to get the image of contemporaneity for the Vedas by adding words such as 'capitalism', ' socialism', ' communism' as qualified by the adjective 'Vedic'. Talking of 'Vedic Communism' and 'Vedic Socialism' is as old as Rahul Sankrityayan and SA Dange. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 5:57 AM, patrick mccartney wrote: > Robert, > > The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been > contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. > Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a > certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said > they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', > so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational > interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less > authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic > astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. > > Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism > ', > 'Vedic socialism > ' and 'Vedic > communism > ' > to be amongst my favourites. > > I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book > ? > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > >> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from >> the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap >> of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As >> with so many things, it is context-sensitive. >> >> patrick mccartney wrote: >> >> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought >> 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the >> bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >> >> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a >> series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of >> the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For >> instance, >> >> Howard Resnick wrote: >> >> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, >> bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of >> the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >> >> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >> >> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the >> 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra >> section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs >> etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya >> Vaishnavism. >> >> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even >> ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a >> word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as >> ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >> >> George Hart wrote: >> >> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. >> >> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word >> ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and >> means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be >> careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the >> religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart >> refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, >> but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti >> can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >> >> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s >> Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? >> is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? >> (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, >> later meanings. But if you say >> >> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, >> and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. >> >> then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled >> ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly >> reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that >> later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. >> The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >> >> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in >> their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >> legitimacy. >> >> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to >> ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas >> and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some >> imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal >> favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >> >> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special >> halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, >> mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This >> sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be >> ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what >> democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the >> world is shuddering?). >> >> RZ >> >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >> Department f?r Asienstudien >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 02:59:09 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 08:29:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Correction: But in the case of 'Vedic capitalism', 'Vedic socialism', 'Vedic communism' , it can not be said that '' capitalism', ' socialism', ' communism' are *not *intended to get legitimacy by the use of the adjective 'Vedic'. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to > ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas > and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. > > > The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special > halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, > mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). > > ------- Not after Arya Samaj and other organizations similar to that which > are in vogue in huge numbers today. > > Traditionally, a potter had an exclusive right cum responsibility for the > production of pots, a liquor-maker had an exclusive right cum > responsibility for making liquor, a washer-man had an exclusive right cum > responsibility to wash cloths, why, even a performer of a particular folk > performing art had an exclusive right cum responsibility for the > performance of the particular folk performing art. > > People moving away from their traditional caste occupations (right cum > responsibility occupations) is happening for all those occupations which > are no longer givers of either a worldly benefit or a social status. Number > of Brahmin families moving away from their Vedaadhyayana and > Vedaadhyaapana is on huge rise. Priestly Brahmins are depressed that they > are not able to get marriage alliances. > > Dear Patrick, > > All the usages of the adjective 'Vedic' do not indicate the same cultural > process. Academicians need to discern such differences carefully. > > 1. 'Vedic ' in Vedic astrology is used to distinguish it from the western > astrology. Choice of 'Vedic' in preference to 'Hindu' seems to be to avoid > a religious 'sectarian' image. > > 2. 'Vedic' in 'Vedic capitalism', 'Vedic socialism', 'Vedic communism' is > in fact the opposite of the process that was proposed by your thread > initiating post. Your initiating post was proposing an attempt to acquire > legitimacy to the entity described by the qualified noun by the use of the > adjective 'Vedic'. But in the case of 'Vedic capitalism', 'Vedic > socialism', 'Vedic communism' , it can not be said that '' capitalism', ' > socialism', ' communism' are not intended to get legitimacy by the use > of the adjective 'Vedic'. In fact , the attempt here is to get the image of > contemporaneity for the Vedas by adding words such as 'capitalism', ' > socialism', ' communism' as qualified by the adjective 'Vedic'. Talking of > 'Vedic Communism' and 'Vedic Socialism' is as old as Rahul Sankrityayan and > SA Dange. > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 5:57 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been >> contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. >> Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a >> certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said >> they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', >> so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational >> interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less >> authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic >> astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. >> >> Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism >> ', >> 'Vedic socialism >> ' and 'Vedic >> communism >> ' >> to be amongst my favourites. >> >> I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book >> ? >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos > > wrote: >> >>> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from >>> the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap >>> of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As >>> with so many things, it is context-sensitive. >>> >>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>> >>> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought >>> 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the >>> bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >>> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >>> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >>> >>> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a >>> series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of >>> the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For >>> instance, >>> >>> Howard Resnick wrote: >>> >>> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, >>> bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of >>> the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >>> >>> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >>> >>> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the >>> 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra >>> section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs >>> etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya >>> Vaishnavism. >>> >>> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even >>> ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a >>> word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as >>> ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >>> >>> George Hart wrote: >>> >>> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing >>> new. >>> >>> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word >>> ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and >>> means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be >>> careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the >>> religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart >>> refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, >>> but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti >>> can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >>> >>> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s >>> Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? >>> is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? >>> (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, >>> later meanings. But if you say >>> >>> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic >>> development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. >>> >>> then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled >>> ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly >>> reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that >>> later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. >>> The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >>> >>> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign >>> in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >>> legitimacy. >>> >>> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to >>> ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas >>> and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some >>> imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal >>> favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >>> >>> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special >>> halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, >>> mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This >>> sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be >>> ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what >>> democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the >>> world is shuddering?). >>> >>> RZ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >>> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >>> Department f?r Asienstudien >>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vjroebuck at btinternet.com Wed Nov 9 08:10:05 2016 From: vjroebuck at btinternet.com (Valerie Roebuck) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 08:10:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5016B176-D4A8-4F06-A3C1-E8373E5F414C@btinternet.com> I prefer the expression ?Indian Astrology?, since the tradition was certainly not restricted to Hinduism either. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > On 9 Nov 2016, at 00:27, patrick mccartney wrote: > > Robert, > > The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. > > Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism ', 'Vedic socialism ' and 'Vedic communism ' to be amongst my favourites. > > I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book ? > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > Linkedin > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium ? > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > A Day in our Ashram > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala? > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As with so many things, it is context-sensitive. > > patrick mccartney wrote: > > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. > > Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For instance, > > Howard Resnick wrote: > > > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? > > Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > > > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya Vaishnavism. > > If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as > > George Hart wrote: > > > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. > > Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti can be called ?Vedic? or not.) > > Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, later meanings. But if you say > > > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. > > then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. > > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. > > It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). > > The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the world is shuddering?). > > RZ > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Department f?r Asienstudien > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Wed Nov 9 08:28:31 2016 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 09:28:31 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <5016B176-D4A8-4F06-A3C1-E8373E5F414C@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <1b9c7ccb-7e8e-4ffd-34a3-79c4f2086c7d@pbhome.se> To me, the really interesting phenomenon is when T?jika, which in its own source texts admits to being of /mleccha /or /yavana /origin and based on 'Persian-language' (actually, almost exclusively Arabic) works, is claimed as a branch of 'Vedic astrology'. Patrick, I'd be very interested to hear more about your exchanges with 'Vedic astrologers' at some point. To the best of my knowledge, the term was coined in North America in the 1980s and then exported to India, where it first appeared in the 1990s. Martin Gansten Den 2016-11-09 kl. 09:10, skrev Valerie Roebuck: > I prefer the expression ?Indian Astrology?, since the tradition was > certainly not restricted to Hinduism either. > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > >> On 9 Nov 2016, at 00:27, patrick mccartney > > wrote: >> >> Robert, >> >> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been >> contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their >> websites. Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are >> revealing of a certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One >> particular respondent said they did not like the term but it was >> something of an 'industry standard', so not using the term was >> counter productive to their own vocational interest. They also said >> that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This is while >> knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' developed >> well past the Vedic period. >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 09:53:35 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 15:23:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <1b9c7ccb-7e8e-4ffd-34a3-79c4f2086c7d@pbhome.se> Message-ID: Yes, Indian Astrology or Bharateeya Astrology or any other term would have been good. I agree. I am not here to justify the term Vedic Astrology. I was trying to clarify only that the qualifier Vedic serves the purpose of distinguishing it from Western Astrology. Thanks Martin for giving the lead, " the term was coined in North America in the 1980s and then exported to India, where it first appeared in the 1990s." for those who might want to see who of all did coin this wrong or right term. It would be an interesting study to see how many terms all over the world, the meanings of the titles of categories are not very much the same as the abhidhEyArthas /mukhyArthas of the words in the titles. What you call Chinese or Japanese could have contributions from India What you call American could have contributions from pre-colonial America and many parts of the world. I guess there must already be very good studies on such an obvious and easily imaginable topic. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Martin Gansten wrote: > To me, the really interesting phenomenon is when T?jika, which in its own > source texts admits to being of *mleccha *or *yavana *origin and based on > 'Persian-language' (actually, almost exclusively Arabic) works, is claimed > as a branch of 'Vedic astrology'. > > Patrick, I'd be very interested to hear more about your exchanges with > 'Vedic astrologers' at some point. To the best of my knowledge, the term > was coined in North America in the 1980s and then exported to India, where > it first appeared in the 1990s. > > Martin Gansten > > > Den 2016-11-09 kl. 09:10, skrev Valerie Roebuck: > > I prefer the expression ?Indian Astrology?, since the tradition was > certainly not restricted to Hinduism either. > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > On 9 Nov 2016, at 00:27, patrick mccartney wrote: > > Robert, > > The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been > contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. > Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a > certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said > they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', > so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational > interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less > authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic > astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Nov 9 12:53:51 2016 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 12:53:51 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_postdoc_position_in_Z=C3=BCrich_for_research_on_the_Paippal=C4=81da_Recension_of_the_Atharvaveda?= Message-ID: === The Indo-European Studies group (Prof. Paul Widmer, Department of Comparative Linguistics) and the Department of Indian Studies (Prof. Angelika Malinar, Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies) of the University of Zurich jointly invite applications for a post-doctoral position (66% FTE) in Vedic linguistics and Indian culture. The successful applicant will join the interdisciplinary project Online edition of the Paippal?da Recension of the Atharvaveda. This editorial project is funded by the Swiss National Science Foundation (SNSF) and will start in early 2017. Successful applicants for the position must have a PhD in Indian Studies and/or Indo-European studies, philological expertise in this field and documented research interests in Vedic Sanskrit/Ancient Indian culture. Experience in editorial work and digital editorial techniques is welcome. The position requires the willingness to closely cooperate with all members of the project and coordinate research activities. Applications should be submitted by December 10, 2017, and include a letter of motivation, CV, a copy of the PhD thesis and up to three other publications. Please send the documents in single PDF format to Prof. Dr. Paul Widmer (paul.widmer at uzh.ch) and Prof. Dr. Angelika Malinar (angelika.malinar at aoi.uzh.ch) who can also be contacted for further information. === -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Wed Nov 9 22:57:41 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 14:57:41 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <1b9c7ccb-7e8e-4ffd-34a3-79c4f2086c7d@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <79601dc1-dce2-a99e-38f5-076e080c7fff@berkeley.edu> Martin, Do you have details about when, how and or whom it was coined? I can tell you that in 1974, during a stay in Paris, I met a disciple of Bkaktivedanta Swami that practiced Indian astrology and he called it Vedic astrology. So it has to be earlier that the 80s. Luis _____ On 11/9/2016 12:28 AM, Martin Gansten wrote: > To me, the really interesting phenomenon is when T?jika, which in its > own source texts admits to being of /mleccha /or /yavana /origin and > based on 'Persian-language' (actually, almost exclusively Arabic) > works, is claimed as a branch of 'Vedic astrology'. > > Patrick, I'd be very interested to hear more about your exchanges with > 'Vedic astrologers' at some point. To the best of my knowledge, the > term was coined in North America in the 1980s and then exported to > India, where it first appeared in the 1990s. > > Martin Gansten > > > Den 2016-11-09 kl. 09:10, skrev Valerie Roebuck: >> I prefer the expression ?Indian Astrology?, since the tradition was >> certainly not restricted to Hinduism either. >> >> Valerie J Roebuck >> Manchester, UK >> >>> On 9 Nov 2016, at 00:27, patrick mccartney >> > wrote: >>> >>> Robert, >>> >>> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been >>> contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their >>> websites. Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are >>> revealing of a certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One >>> particular respondent said they did not like the term but it was >>> something of an 'industry standard', so not using the term was >>> counter productive to their own vocational interest. They also said >>> that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This is while >>> knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' developed >>> well past the Vedic period. >>> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Wed Nov 9 23:09:09 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 15:09:09 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I sent this response yesterday, but by mistake it only went to Patrick and not the list, so I resend it here. I now see that Valerie made the same point about using "Indian astrology." _____ Hi Patrick, It would be easy to replace the name Vedic astrology with Indian astrology. It's more accurate, anyway, because that encompasses what could be called Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. astrology. There certainly has been a pattern for centuries of appropriating the label "Vedic" for enhancing the prestige of one's own tradition or text and making it seem very ancient. There are claims of being the nectar of the Vedas, as in the /Bh?gavata Pur??a/, as well as statements about the Vedas ultimately being about this or that god or goddess. These are clearly sectarian claims. Best, Luis _____ On 11/8/2016 4:27 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: > Robert, > > The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been > contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their > websites. Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are > revealing of a certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One > particular respondent said they did not like the term but it was > something of an 'industry standard', so not using the term was counter > productive to their own vocational interest. They also said that > 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This is while knowing > that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' developed well past > the Vedic period. > > Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism > ', > 'Vedic socialism > ' and > 'Vedic communism > ' > to be amongst my favourites. > > I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book > ? > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > * > > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of > Shakuntala > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos > > wrote: > > By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a > lady from the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She > came with a heap of references and quotes and asked me what we are > to make of all this. As with so many things, it is context-sensitive. > > patrick mccartney wrote: > > > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I > thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, > and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To > the devotee this statement might seem unproblematic, but to the > scholar it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate > disparate things. > > Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as > a series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the > meaning of the word in a given context may differ from the one in > another context. For instance, > > Howard Resnick wrote: > > > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, > bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard > members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? > > Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > > > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti > in the 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of > the Mantra section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later > developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) and further developments in > Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya Vaishnavism. > > If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or > even ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this > I mean that a word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later > religious thinkers as ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as > > George Hart wrote: > > > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is > nothing new. > > Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that > the word ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of > sociological label and means nothing more than ?accepted by > brahmins?. (Here one must again be careful and ask ?which > brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the religious > authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart > refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti > tradition, but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not > relevant whether bhakti can be called ?Vedic? or not.) > > Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s > Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word > ?bhakti? is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of > ?distribution? (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth > give a long list of other, later meanings. But if you say > > > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic > development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th > century CE. > > then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled > ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one > soberly reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one > must conclude that later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather > subdued theism in that text. The same goes for the > ?vet??vataropani?at. > > > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' > sign in their marketing and promotional material to generate > 'authenticity' and legitimacy. > > It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive > right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins > decide what the Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their > meaning is. With some imagination, one can declare all sorts of > things ?Vedic? (my personal favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). > > The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a > special halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in > its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? > ?auca?, etc.). This sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. > Everybody wants to be ?democratic?, even if there are big > differences of opinion about just what democracy is and how it > should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the world is shuddering?). > > RZ > > > -- > Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos > Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Department f?r Asienstudien > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsalomon at uw.edu Thu Nov 10 00:14:19 2016 From: rsalomon at uw.edu (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 11:14:19 +1100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Passing of Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: <2ABAFE8B-BB49-4B4A-A9F8-0AF61C0B072A@eservices.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <1f952fc4-d59a-863b-2606-bbcc3b04b544@uw.edu> Dear Friends, I want to belatedly express my sadness over the passing of my great guru. (I had been traveling in Australia and did not get the sad news promptly.) But what can I say that hasn't already been said? -- it is all true. The years I spent studying with him back in the early 70's were in many ways the best years of my life. I look back on them with great pleasure and fond memories. A great and a good man. Rich On 11/4/2016 9:01 AM, Nemec, John William (nemec) (jwn3y) wrote: > I am so saddened to hear the news of Ludo's passing. His excellence as a Sanskritist was surpassed only by his excellence as a human being. He was a friend, my dissertation mentor, a model and a guide. I'll never forget his avuncular style, sense of humor, clarity of mind, and generosity. The man had a steel spine; he was strong in all the good ways, yet deeply compassionate. I never knew him to be afraid of anything; and he enjoyed life. A steady, kind soul. I will miss him. > > John > > >> On Nov 3, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Olivelle, J P wrote: >> >> Dear Friends: >> >> To add to the fine eulogy of Fred, the last book authored by Ludo was published just a couple of months before his passing, thanks to the work of our colleague Federico Squarcini: >> >> Vyavah?rasaukya: The Treatise on Legal Procedure in the ?o?ar?nanda composed at the Instance of ?o?aramalla during the Reign of Akbar. Firenze: Societ? Editrica Fiorentina, 2916. >> >> His Keine Schriften were edited by Don Davis: >> >> Studies in Hindu Law and Dharma??stra. London: Anthem Press, 2012. >> >> With best wishes, >> >> Patrick Olivelle >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Smith, Frederick M > wrote: >> >> Dear RISA-L sah?dayas, >> >> Several of Professor Ludo Rocher?s former students learned this morning of his passing last night, at age 90, peacefully, at his home in Philadelphia. Ludo was more than a mentor and guide for his students, myself included. He was a lifetime friend and a role model of scholarship, elegance, positivity, dignity, and, not least for many of us, of how to act in a most congenial manner as a department chair in the face of truculent administrators and colleagues. He was the chair of the Department of Oriental Studies (later renamed Asian and Middle Eastern Studies), and the Department of South Asian Studies, at the University of Pennsylvania for twenty-four years, and taught actively for nearly forty years, from 1966-2004. He mentored not just his own students, but many of his students? students. He was a paragon of knowledge, virtue, and love for his work. He was born in Antwerp in 1926, spent several years in India in the 1950s, then returned repeatedly, usually to Kolkata. Much of his work took him to archives in London, Germany, and elsewhere. He is survived by his wife, the wonderful Rosane Rocher, whose indefatigable love and ministrations kept him alive and at work for at least fifteen years beyond what was expected at the time. Rosane was not just his wife, but collaborator on many of his works, in addition to being a fine scholar in her own right. Ludo was one of the most visible and important scholars of Dharma??stra of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. I will leave it to others to add more. I will, however, add only one note ? His Sanskrit was awesome, his versatility was unparalleled, and he constantly made the most difficult passages completely transparent through his complete understanding of the grammar and the lucidity of his presentation, whether it was in graduate classes, in is careful reading of dissertations, or anything in his extravagantly long list of publications. Hopefully, this list. Including his most recent book, published this year(!), will be forthcoming soon. >> >> Kind regards >> Fred Smith >> University of Iowa >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RISA-L mailing list >> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu >> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RISA-L mailing list >> RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu >> https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz Thu Nov 10 04:05:20 2016 From: clemency.montelle at canterbury.ac.nz (Clemency Montelle) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 04:05:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Devanagari font: Shobhika Message-ID: <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FBE21B7@UCEXMBX04-I.canterbury.ac.nz> Dear Colleagues, I'm passing on this announcement from my collaborators at IITBombay who have just released a beautiful new Devanagari font called Shobhika. The font has been carefully and mindfully executed by a team of Sanskrit, IT, and visual design specialists, and the attention to detail that has gone into all aspects of the process produces a very pleasing end result (I attach a screen shot for a quick view of the font). Please find below the link to the public Github repository of the free, open source font. The instructions to download v1.0 of the font are given under the 'Downloading the font' section in the link below: https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika I quote from their preamble: "Shobhika is a free, open source, Unicode compliant, OpenType font with support for Devan?gar?, Latin, and Cyrillic scripts. It is available in two weights?regular and bold. The font is designed with over 1600 Devan?gar? glyphs, including support for over 1100 conjunct consonants, as well as vedic accents. The Latin component of the font not only supports a wide range of characters required for Roman transliteration of Sanskrit, but also provides a subset of regularly used mathematical symbols for scholars working with scientific and technical documents. The project has been launched under the auspices of the Science and Heritage Initiative (SandHI) at IIT Bombay, and builds upon the following two fonts for its Devan?gar? and Latin components respectively: (i) Yashomudra by R?jya Mar??h? Vik?s Sa?sth?, and (ii) PT Serif by ParaType. We would like to thank both these organisations for releasing their fonts under the SIL Open Font Licence, which has enabled us to create Shobhika. " The creators of the font also request any feedback that you have so that it may be further improved. With best wishes, Clemency ---- Dr Clemency Montelle http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/ School of Mathematics and Statistics University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140 NEW ZEALAND -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:29:13 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 16 21:29:13 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit translations and parallel corpora In-Reply-To: <7361C55C666F4B1B9BB178847405C02D@OliverHP> Message-ID: It's not digital, but Edgerton's translation of the Gita (Harvard UP) is p?da-for-p?da parallel to the Skt. Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 8 November 2016 at 13:23, wrote: > Dear list members, > > for a project dealing with the Rigveda, we want to transfer syntactic > structures and other linguistic information from parallel texts (= > translations) in English and other modern languages to Sanskrit texts. > > So, for example, (1) we have a Sanskrit sentence X and its English > translation Y, (2) we run a syntactic parser on the English sentence Y, (3) > and transfer any detected structures to the Sanskrit sentence X. Sounds a > bit exotic, but works surprisingly well for many languages. > > What we really need right now, are parallel digital corpora that provide > an English (German, French) translation for each Sanskrit sentence (or at > least for comparatively small text parts). > > Are you aware of any such **digital** resources? Text genre is not that > important, but the older, the better. And they should preferably be massive > in size. > > Best, Oliver > > ---- > Oliver Hellwig, SFB 991, University of D?sseldorf > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:44:06 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 10:14:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1. Cultures mixing with each other, new mixed cultures being born out of intercultural interactions, religious and cultural syncretisms, these products of mixtures being named after one of the components of the mixture are all not the special features of India.How such syncretisms are received too varies from social group to social group. It may be called a 'good thing' like here . It may not be called a 'good thing' elsewhere. 2. One model of such namings of the mixtures can be called a river-tributary model. Even after tributaries join the main river , later course is called with the name of the main river only. In some cases, the cultures/traditions being given the name 'Vedic' has this feature. 3. When cultural assimilations take place using the (perceived or real) commonalities between the two or more interacting cultures, these commonalities, described in Indian Sanskrit knowing sections using the word ?kav?kyat?, are described using the language of the available doctrinal articulations. Upanishads and Vedanta are examples of such articulations used to describe the ?kav?kyat?. 4. Viewing ancient intercultural interactions deterministically in a (class)-conflict model, and viewing ancient cultural assimilations as class-war averting or class-war pre-empting strategies on the part of one of the components of admixture is a typical deductive and historical determinist model. 5. Most of the findings of cultural mixings, or assimilations or anything like that found in a current culture by the researchers of that current culture may not be known to the insiders of that investigated culture. So to theorize as if the culture insider knew the 'non-Vedic nature' of his culture and still used the word Vedic for a prestige is to attribute unjustifiable motives to the tradition bearer. On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > I sent this response yesterday, but by mistake it only went to Patrick and > not the list, so I resend it here. > > I now see that Valerie made the same point about using "Indian astrology." > > _____ > > Hi Patrick, > > It would be easy to replace the name Vedic astrology with Indian > astrology. It's more accurate, anyway, because that encompasses what could > be called Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. astrology. > > There certainly has been a pattern for centuries of appropriating the > label "Vedic" for enhancing the prestige of one's own tradition or text and > making it seem very ancient. There are claims of being the nectar of the > Vedas, as in the *Bh?gavata Pur??a*, as well as statements about the > Vedas ultimately being about this or that god or goddess. These are clearly > sectarian claims. > > Best, > Luis > _____ > > > On 11/8/2016 4:27 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: > > Robert, > > The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been > contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. > Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a > certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said > they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', > so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational > interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less > authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic > astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. > > Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism > ', > 'Vedic socialism > ' and 'Vedic > communism > ' > to be amongst my favourites. > > I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book > ? > > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > >> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from >> the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap >> of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As >> with so many things, it is context-sensitive. >> >> patrick mccartney wrote: >> >> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought >> 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the >> bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >> >> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a >> series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of >> the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For >> instance, >> >> Howard Resnick wrote: >> >> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, >> bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of >> the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >> >> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >> >> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the >> 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra >> section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs >> etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya >> Vaishnavism. >> >> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even >> ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a >> word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as >> ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >> >> George Hart wrote: >> >> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing new. >> >> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word >> ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and >> means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be >> careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the >> religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart >> refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, >> but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti >> can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >> >> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s >> Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? >> is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? >> (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, >> later meanings. But if you say >> >> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, >> and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. >> >> then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled >> ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly >> reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that >> later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. >> The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >> >> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign in >> their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >> legitimacy. >> >> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to >> ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas >> and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some >> imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal >> favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >> >> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special >> halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, >> mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This >> sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be >> ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what >> democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the >> world is shuddering?). >> >> RZ >> >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >> Department f?r Asienstudien >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Thu Nov 10 06:45:04 2016 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 07:45:04 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <79601dc1-dce2-a99e-38f5-076e080c7fff@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <1ee0b5eb-3cd2-cbe3-86a0-9bd4bcda8bf2@pbhome.se> Luis, Was the person you met called Shyamasundara Dasa? As I recall, he claims to have been the first to use this term, though I didn't know he did so as early as 1974. Mainstream interest (if one can call it that) in jyoti?a didn't develop until the 1980s, so that was probably when the term gained wider circulation. But there are others who have made the same claim, so perhaps the term was coined separately by several people. If memory serves (I couldn't swear to this), one was Chakrapani Ullal, a Kerala-born astrologer with links to Swami Muktananda. There may have been others as well. Martin Den 2016-11-09 kl. 23:57, skrev Luis Gonzalez-Reimann: > > Martin, > > Do you have details about when, how and or whom it was coined? I can > tell you that in 1974, during a stay in Paris, I met a disciple of > Bkaktivedanta Swami that practiced Indian astrology and he called it > Vedic astrology. So it has to be earlier that the 80s. > > Luis From gaiapintucci at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 10:40:15 2016 From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 11:40:15 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_"On_Rudra=E1=B9=ADa_and_Rudrabha=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADa"?= Message-ID: Dear list members, Does anybody by any chance have a pdf file of JACOBI, Hermann (1888). "On Rudra?a and Rudrabha??a", Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, vol. 2 (pp. 151-156). ? It is the very first article of what became a sort of exchange of opinions between Jacobi and Pischel. I collected pdfs of the later articles of this exchange, but I am missing the first episode, so to speak. With best wishes, Gaia Pintucci Universit?t Hamburg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de Thu Nov 10 10:47:57 2016 From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 11:47:57 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_"On_Rudra=E1=B9=ADa_and_Rudrabha=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADa"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <341a90a2-dfed-1439-2ee9-2551719fcf2b@uni-bonn.de> Am 10.11.2016 um 11:40 schrieb Gaia Pintucci: > JACOBI, Hermann (1888). "On Rudra?a and Rudrabha??a", Wiener > Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, vol. 2 (pp. 151-156). It's on JSTOR: URL: All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Bibliothek Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gaiapintucci at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 10:52:09 2016 From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 11:52:09 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_"On_Rudra=E1=B9=ADa_and_Rudrabha=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADa"?= In-Reply-To: <341a90a2-dfed-1439-2ee9-2551719fcf2b@uni-bonn.de> Message-ID: Dear Peter Wyzlic, Thank you for your reply. I knew about this, but the Universit?t Hamburg does not have full access to the series of the WZKM via JSTOR, which means that from here I can read that article online, but not download it. This is why I bothered the list members. Best wishes, Gaia Pintucci Universit?t Hamburg 2016-11-10 11:47 GMT+01:00 Peter Wyzlic : > Am 10.11.2016 um 11:40 schrieb Gaia Pintucci: > > JACOBI, Hermann (1888). "On Rudra?a and Rudrabha??a", Wiener Zeitschrift > f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, vol. 2 (pp. 151-156). > > > It's on JSTOR: URL: > > > All the best > > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Bibliothek > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > D-53113 Bonn > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gaiapintucci at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 10:59:06 2016 From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 11:59:06 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_"On_Rudra=E1=B9=ADa_and_Rudrabha=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADa"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Borayin, Thank you very much! Best wishes, Gaia Pintucci Universit?t Hamburg On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:56 AM, (Maitreya) Borayin Larios < shrimaitreya at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Gaia, > > Here it is. > > Best, > Borayin > > > > [image: --] > Borayin Maitreya Larios > [image: http://]about.me/borayin.larios > > J?gerpfad 13 > 69118 Heidelberg > Germany > Office: (+49) 6221548939 > > Mobile: (+49) 17672329143 > > http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios/larios.php > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Gaia Pintucci > wrote: > >> Dear Peter Wyzlic, >> >> Thank you for your reply. >> >> I knew about this, but the Universit?t Hamburg does not have >> full access to the series of the WZKM via JSTOR, which means >> that from here I can read that article online, but not download it. >> This is why I bothered the list members. >> >> Best wishes, >> Gaia Pintucci >> >> Universit?t Hamburg >> >> 2016-11-10 11:47 GMT+01:00 Peter Wyzlic : >> >>> Am 10.11.2016 um 11:40 schrieb Gaia Pintucci: >>> >>> JACOBI, Hermann (1888). "On Rudra?a and Rudrabha??a", Wiener Zeitschrift >>> f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, vol. 2 (pp. 151-156). >>> >>> >>> It's on JSTOR: URL: >>> >>> >>> All the best >>> >>> Peter Wyzlic >>> >>> -- >>> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >>> Bibliothek >>> Universit?t Bonn >>> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >>> D-53113 Bonn >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shrimaitreya at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 11:14:26 2016 From: shrimaitreya at gmail.com ((Maitreya) Borayin Larios) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 12:14:26 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_"On_Rudra=E1=B9=ADa_and_Rudrabha=E1=B9=AD=E1=B9=ADa"?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your welcome! :) [image: --] Borayin Maitreya Larios [image: http://]about.me/borayin.larios J?gerpfad 13 69118 Heidelberg Germany Office: (+49) 6221548939 Mobile: (+49) 17672329143 http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios/larios.php On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Gaia Pintucci wrote: > Dear Borayin, > > Thank you very much! > > Best wishes, > Gaia Pintucci > > Universit?t Hamburg > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:56 AM, (Maitreya) Borayin Larios < > shrimaitreya at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Gaia, >> >> Here it is. >> >> Best, >> Borayin >> >> >> >> [image: --] >> Borayin Maitreya Larios >> [image: http://]about.me/borayin.larios >> >> J?gerpfad 13 >> 69118 Heidelberg >> Germany >> Office: (+49) 6221548939 >> >> Mobile: (+49) 17672329143 >> >> http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/abt/IND/mitarbeiter/larios/larios.php >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Gaia Pintucci >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Peter Wyzlic, >>> >>> Thank you for your reply. >>> >>> I knew about this, but the Universit?t Hamburg does not have >>> full access to the series of the WZKM via JSTOR, which means >>> that from here I can read that article online, but not download it. >>> This is why I bothered the list members. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Gaia Pintucci >>> >>> Universit?t Hamburg >>> >>> 2016-11-10 11:47 GMT+01:00 Peter Wyzlic : >>> >>>> Am 10.11.2016 um 11:40 schrieb Gaia Pintucci: >>>> >>>> JACOBI, Hermann (1888). "On Rudra?a and Rudrabha??a", Wiener >>>> Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, vol. 2 (pp. 151-156). >>>> >>>> >>>> It's on JSTOR: URL: >>>> >>>> >>>> All the best >>>> >>>> Peter Wyzlic >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften >>>> Bibliothek >>>> Universit?t Bonn >>>> Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >>>> D-53113 Bonn >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Thu Nov 10 20:38:17 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 12:38:17 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <1ee0b5eb-3cd2-cbe3-86a0-9bd4bcda8bf2@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <9ffc3dc9-1350-0df3-8cab-62f16eb18db8@berkeley.edu> I don't remember his name, Martin. Do you know when David Frawley started using "Vedic astrology"? As I don't think many are interested in the topic, we could continue in private. Luis _____ On 11/9/2016 10:45 PM, Martin Gansten wrote: > Luis, > > Was the person you met called Shyamasundara Dasa? As I recall, he > claims to have been the first to use this term, though I didn't know > he did so as early as 1974. Mainstream interest (if one can call it > that) in jyoti?a didn't develop until the 1980s, so that was probably > when the term gained wider circulation. But there are others who have > made the same claim, so perhaps the term was coined separately by > several people. If memory serves (I couldn't swear to this), one was > Chakrapani Ullal, a Kerala-born astrologer with links to Swami > Muktananda. There may have been others as well. > > Martin > > Den 2016-11-09 kl. 23:57, skrev Luis Gonzalez-Reimann: >> >> Martin, >> >> Do you have details about when, how and or whom it was coined? I can >> tell you that in 1974, during a stay in Paris, I met a disciple of >> Bkaktivedanta Swami that practiced Indian astrology and he called it >> Vedic astrology. So it has to be earlier that the 80s. >> >> Luis > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From reimann at berkeley.edu Thu Nov 10 22:03:27 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 16 14:03:27 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3d475a45-3aae-56d2-ecfe-97108d5bf119@berkeley.edu> Nagaraj, You are generalizing. I simply point out the fact that invoking the Vedas or Vedic knowledge to boost one's own tradition is commonplace in Indian religious traditions. Yes, each case can be studied in its own cultural context and so on, but that doesn't change the fact. In some cases, it may almost a cliche, but it is prevalent. The sectarian competition is clear in the literature. It can be a different matter for the everyday believer, who doesn't need to be bothered with theological distinctions. For the /Bhagavad G?t?/ the Supreme god is Kr???a, for the/??vara G?t?/ it is ?iva, for the /Dev? Bh?gavata Pur???/ it is Dev?. Likewise, different texts say that their preferred divinity*is* the Vedas, or brahman, or some variant of that idea. And Puranic stories often tell of how a certain god couldn't accomplish a certain job and had to ask for help from another one who, therefore, is portrayed as the highest. Regards, Luis _____ On 11/9/2016 8:44 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > 1. Cultures mixing with each other, new mixed cultures being born out > of intercultural interactions, religious and cultural syncretisms, > these products of mixtures being named after one of the components of > the mixture are all not the special features of India.How such > syncretisms are received too varies from social group to social group. > It may be called a 'good thing' like here > . > It may not be called a 'good thing' elsewhere. > > 2. One model of such namings of the mixtures can be called a > river-tributary model. Even after tributaries join the main river , > later course is called with the name of the main river only. In some > cases, the cultures/traditions being given the name 'Vedic' has this > feature. > > 3. When cultural assimilations take place using the (perceived or > real) commonalities between the two or more interacting cultures, > these commonalities, described in Indian Sanskrit knowing > sections using the word ?kav?kyat?, are described using the language > of the available doctrinal articulations. Upanishads and Vedanta are > examples of such articulations used to describe the ?kav?kyat?. > > 4. Viewing ancient intercultural interactions deterministically in a > (class)-conflict model, and viewing ancient cultural assimilations as > class-war averting or class-war pre-empting strategies on the part of > one of the components of admixture is a typical deductive and > historical determinist model. > > 5. Most of the findings of cultural mixings, or assimilations or > anything like that found in a current culture by the researchers of > that current culture may not be known to the insiders of that > investigated culture. So to theorize as if the culture insider knew > the 'non-Vedic nature' of his culture and still used the word Vedic > for a prestige is to attribute unjustifiable motives to the tradition > bearer. > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > wrote: > > I sent this response yesterday, but by mistake it only went to > Patrick and not the list, so I resend it here. > > I now see that Valerie made the same point about using "Indian > astrology." > > _____ > > Hi Patrick, > > It would be easy to replace the name Vedic astrology with Indian > astrology. It's more accurate, anyway, because that encompasses > what could be called Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. astrology. > > There certainly has been a pattern for centuries of appropriating > the label "Vedic" for enhancing the prestige of one's own > tradition or text and making it seem very ancient. There are > claims of being the nectar of the Vedas, as in the /Bh?gavata > Pur??a/, as well as statements about the Vedas ultimately being > about this or that god or goddess. These are clearly sectarian claims. > > Best, > > Luis > _____ > > > On 11/8/2016 4:27 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: >> Robert, >> >> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been >> contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their >> websites. Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are >> revealing of a certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One >> particular respondent said they did not like the term but it was >> something of an 'industry standard', so not using the term was >> counter productive to their own vocational interest. They also >> said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This >> is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' >> developed well past the Vedic period. >> >> Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism >> ', >> 'Vedic socialism >> ' >> and 'Vedic communism >> ' >> to be amongst my favourites. >> >> I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book >> ? >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> * >> >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of >> Shakuntala >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos >> > wrote: >> >> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to >> a lady from the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on >> bhakti. She came with a heap of references and quotes and >> asked me what we are to make of all this. As with so many >> things, it is context-sensitive. >> >> patrick mccartney wrote: >> >> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above >> upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a >> post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement >> developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it >> appears to conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >> >> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a >> word as a series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, >> and that the meaning of the word in a given context may >> differ from the one in another context. For instance, >> >> Howard Resnick wrote: >> >> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions >> bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three >> standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >> >> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >> >> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on >> Bhakti in the 90s, he started the class with a review of some >> portions of the Mantra section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to >> later developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) and further >> developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya Vaishnavism. >> >> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is >> Vedantic or even ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not >> historical. By this I mean that a word such as ?bhakti? is >> ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as ?implied? in the >> ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >> >> George Hart wrote: >> >> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is >> nothing new. >> >> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued >> that the word ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort >> of sociological label and means nothing more than ?accepted >> by brahmins?. (Here one must again be careful and ask ?which >> brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the religious >> authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George >> Hart refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a >> bhakti tradition, but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it >> is not relevant whether bhakti can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >> >> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and >> Roth?s Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us >> that the word ?bhakti? is already found in the ?gveda >> (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? (?Austheilung, >> Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, >> later meanings. But if you say >> >> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic >> development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the >> 6th century CE. >> >> then you are starting from a particular concept that is >> labelled ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for >> instance, one soberly reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later >> commentaries, one must conclude that later ?bhakti? is a far >> cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. The same >> goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >> >> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the >> 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional material to >> generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. >> >> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the >> exclusive right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: >> traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas and ?Vedic? >> literature are and what their meaning is. With some >> imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my >> personal favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >> >> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a >> special halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a >> in its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas >> tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This sometimes happens to words (e.g., >> ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be ?democratic?, even if >> there are big differences of opinion about just what >> democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November >> 8, and the world is shuddering?). >> >> RZ >> >> >> -- >> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >> Department f?r Asienstudien >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing > list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the list's > managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can > change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 03:59:34 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 16 14:29:34 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. What intrigues me is how this nomenclature sits with the practitioners of Vedic astrology, especially the ones who know the historicity but feel stuck using a term they are uncomfortable with. I have only interacted with a handful of astrologers online. Most whom I've contacted do not respond. The ones that have and have engaged with me, add to my current, anecdotal yet growing data set. While I'm interested in the historical development of many things, it is the contemporaneous usages of the adjective 'Vedic' by various groups that interests me the most. Probably the most intriguing expression for me at least is the utopian aspiration to "re-establish a Vedic India" http://www. vedicindiafoundation.org, the centre of which is considered to be Brahmasthanam, which is at Bijauri in nth east MP https://vedicpandits.org This is a Maharishi enterprise. How this is enmeshed in also, possibly, creating a Hindu nation and the way modern yoga practitioners are possibly recruited into supporting this aspiration through an 'eco-dharmic' / religious-environmentalist perspective intrigues me. Combined with the way the Indian state uses it's cultural capital and soft power through the multitrillion-dollar wellness/spiritual tourism industry is quite pertinent to my query and the logic of this induction process through the Sanskrit episteme. This is especially the case when considering particular manifestations like the 'yoga nationalism' of Ramdev and how western yoga practitioners are casually/na?vely recruited into a variety of yoga-inflected dispositions. For instance, yesterday a prominent yoga teacher in Sydney was shocked to know that there are Muslims in India! India, to this person, is a Hindu land full of 'spiritual people' who are all vegetarian and everyone does yoga. There are also 'some Buddhists'. Obviously this person has never been to India. Interestingly, they have no desire to either. This is not the first time I have come across people with these types of ideas. So, for some yoga practitioners, including professional, long-term teachers, India is a type of 'Vedic/Sanskrit *wonderland*'. It is how this term and allied practices is infused through the social imaginary-yoga/consumption-scape that interests me the most, and what the social, political, environmental consequences might be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 04:34:02 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 16 10:04:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <3d475a45-3aae-56d2-ecfe-97108d5bf119@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Luis, I am bringing up comparative study which distinguishes the modern cultural study from the pre-modern one. Most of what you say, 'invoking Vedas and Vedic knowledge', sectarian claims etc. are all textual and are applicable to the 'academic' sections of the 'educated' or some such sections of the 'elite'. You expressed awareness of this when you said, " It can be a different matter for the everyday believer, who doesn't need to be bothered with theological distinctions." But the point is that it is the everyday believers who are the majority and what is found in a small minority can not be generalized for the whole. Even while working on the textual aspect or this minority of 'academic' sections of the 'educated' , each case being studied on its own merits yields a more complex understanding than a reductionist one. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:33 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Nagaraj, > > You are generalizing. > > I simply point out the fact that invoking the Vedas or Vedic knowledge to > boost one's own tradition is commonplace in Indian religious traditions. > Yes, each case can be studied in its own cultural context and so on, but > that doesn't change the fact. In some cases, it may almost a cliche, but it > is prevalent. The sectarian competition is clear in the literature. It can > be a different matter for the everyday believer, who doesn't need to be > bothered with theological distinctions. > > For the *Bhagavad G?t?* the Supreme god is Kr???a, for the* ??vara G?t?* > it is ?iva, for the *Dev? Bh?gavata Pur???* it is Dev?. Likewise, > different texts say that their preferred divinity* is* the Vedas, or > brahman, or some variant of that idea. And Puranic stories often tell of > how a certain god couldn't accomplish a certain job and had to ask for help > from another one who, therefore, is portrayed as the highest. > > Regards, > > Luis > > _____ > > On 11/9/2016 8:44 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > 1. Cultures mixing with each other, new mixed cultures being born out of > intercultural interactions, religious and cultural syncretisms, these > products of mixtures being named after one of the components of the > mixture are all not the special features of India.How such syncretisms are > received too varies from social group to social group. It may be called a > 'good thing' like here > . > It may not be called a 'good thing' elsewhere. > > 2. One model of such namings of the mixtures can be called a > river-tributary model. Even after tributaries join the main river , later > course is called with the name of the main river only. In some cases, the > cultures/traditions being given the name 'Vedic' has this feature. > > 3. When cultural assimilations take place using the (perceived or real) > commonalities between the two or more interacting cultures, these > commonalities, described in Indian Sanskrit knowing sections using the > word ?kav?kyat?, are described using the language of the available > doctrinal articulations. Upanishads and Vedanta are examples of such > articulations used to describe the ?kav?kyat?. > > 4. Viewing ancient intercultural interactions deterministically in a > (class)-conflict model, and viewing ancient cultural assimilations as > class-war averting or class-war pre-empting strategies on the part of one > of the components of admixture is a typical deductive and historical > determinist model. > > 5. Most of the findings of cultural mixings, or assimilations or anything > like that found in a current culture by the researchers of that current > culture may not be known to the insiders of that investigated culture. So > to theorize as if the culture insider knew the 'non-Vedic nature' of his > culture and still used the word Vedic for a prestige is to attribute > unjustifiable motives to the tradition bearer. > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann < > reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote: > >> I sent this response yesterday, but by mistake it only went to Patrick >> and not the list, so I resend it here. >> >> I now see that Valerie made the same point about using "Indian astrology." >> >> _____ >> >> Hi Patrick, >> >> It would be easy to replace the name Vedic astrology with Indian >> astrology. It's more accurate, anyway, because that encompasses what could >> be called Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. astrology. >> >> There certainly has been a pattern for centuries of appropriating the >> label "Vedic" for enhancing the prestige of one's own tradition or text and >> making it seem very ancient. There are claims of being the nectar of the >> Vedas, as in the *Bh?gavata Pur??a*, as well as statements about the >> Vedas ultimately being about this or that god or goddess. These are clearly >> sectarian claims. >> >> Best, >> Luis >> _____ >> >> >> On 11/8/2016 4:27 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: >> >> Robert, >> >> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been >> contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. >> Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a >> certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said >> they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', >> so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational >> interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less >> authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic >> astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. >> >> Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism >> ', >> 'Vedic socialism >> ' and 'Vedic >> communism >> ' >> to be amongst my favourites. >> >> I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book >> ? >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos > > wrote: >> >>> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady from >>> the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a heap >>> of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. As >>> with so many things, it is context-sensitive. >>> >>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>> >>> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I thought >>> 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that the >>> bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >>> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >>> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >>> >>> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a >>> series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of >>> the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For >>> instance, >>> >>> Howard Resnick wrote: >>> >>> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, >>> bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of >>> the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >>> >>> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >>> >>> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in the >>> 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra >>> section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs >>> etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya >>> Vaishnavism. >>> >>> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even >>> ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a >>> word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as >>> ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >>> >>> George Hart wrote: >>> >>> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing >>> new. >>> >>> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the word >>> ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label and >>> means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be >>> careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the >>> religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart >>> refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, >>> but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti >>> can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >>> >>> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s >>> Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? >>> is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? >>> (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, >>> later meanings. But if you say >>> >>> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic >>> development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. >>> >>> then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled >>> ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly >>> reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that >>> later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. >>> The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >>> >>> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign >>> in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >>> legitimacy. >>> >>> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to >>> ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas >>> and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some >>> imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal >>> favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >>> >>> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special >>> halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, >>> mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This >>> sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be >>> ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what >>> democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the >>> world is shuddering?). >>> >>> RZ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >>> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >>> Department f?r Asienstudien >>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages >> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where >> you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Nov 11 14:40:27 2016 From: mehner at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Mehner, Maximilian | GRETIL) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 16 14:40:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] GRETIL update #476 Message-ID: GRETIL is pleased to be able to report the following addition(s) to its collection: Texts: Katha-Upanisad Dramatic Fragments Secondary Resources: Bloomfield: A Vedic concordance B?htlingk/Roth: Gro?es Petersburger W?rterbuch __________________________________________________________________________ GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:10:58 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 16 10:10:58 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Downloading etexts from TITUS Message-ID: Dear list members, The TITUS database http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm \has many sanskrit e-texts not available elsewhere. But many of the e-texts on TITUS are marked "restricted download". Does anyone know what the requirements are to get permission to download these e-texts. Many thanks, Harry Sjpier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 20:16:16 2016 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 16 15:16:16 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dipak, I have sent your question to me to the Indology List, because I myself don't know the answer. I hope that a list member can. Best wishes, George I myself On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Has the Aangirasakalpa been published? > Best > Dipak > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:51 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > Dear Dipak, > > > > I did not get it. I didn't see it on the Indology list. Maybe you > should > > re-send your message to the List. I have been visiting doctors all > > week.... > > > > George > > > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> I sent a mail to Indology asking about the Aangirasakalpa > >> Did you get it? > >> Dipak > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Fri Nov 11 23:31:17 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 16 15:31:17 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nagaraj, Yes, I did write what you say, but dismissing what the Pur??as' stress in this respect is not as simple as attributing it to 'academic' sections of the 'educated.' There is a long tradition of public Pur??a recitation, and the different texts are regularly used by followers of the different divinities. Witness the importance of the Bh?gavata for Bengali vai??avas, as well as other examples. Each case can, and should be studied by itself, I agree, but there is an unmistakable "dialogue" that rejects others' views. I am not proposing a reductionist approach, simply pointing out a common thread that can be considered together with specific contexts for the different cases. Luis ______ On 11/10/2016 8:34 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Luis, > > I am bringing up comparative study which distinguishes the modern > cultural study from the pre-modern one. > > Most of what you say, 'invoking Vedas and Vedic knowledge', sectarian > claims etc. are all textual and are applicable to the 'academic' > sections of the 'educated' or some such sections of the 'elite'. You > expressed awareness of this when you said, " It can be a different > matter for the everyday believer, who doesn't need to be bothered with > theological distinctions." But the point is that it is the everyday > believers who are the majority and what is found in a small minority > can not be generalized for the whole. > > Even while working on the textual aspect or this minority of > 'academic' sections of the 'educated' , each case being studied on its > own merits yields a more complex understanding than a reductionist one. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:33 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > > wrote: > > Nagaraj, > > You are generalizing. > > I simply point out the fact that invoking the Vedas or Vedic > knowledge to boost one's own tradition is commonplace in Indian > religious traditions. Yes, each case can be studied in its own > cultural context and so on, but that doesn't change the fact. In > some cases, it may almost a cliche, but it is prevalent. The > sectarian competition is clear in the literature. It can be a > different matter for the everyday believer, who doesn't need to be > bothered with theological distinctions. > > For the /Bhagavad G?t?/ the Supreme god is Kr???a, for the/??vara > G?t?/ it is ?iva, for the /Dev? Bh?gavata Pur???/ it is Dev?. > Likewise, different texts say that their preferred divinity*is* > the Vedas, or brahman, or some variant of that idea. And Puranic > stories often tell of how a certain god couldn't accomplish a > certain job and had to ask for help from another one who, > therefore, is portrayed as the highest. > > Regards, > > Luis > > _____ > > > On 11/9/2016 8:44 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: >> 1. Cultures mixing with each other, new mixed cultures being born >> out of intercultural interactions, religious and cultural >> syncretisms, these products of mixtures being named after one of >> the components of the mixture are all not the special features of >> India.How such syncretisms are received too varies from social >> group to social group. It may be called a 'good thing' like here >> . >> It may not be called a 'good thing' elsewhere. >> >> 2. One model of such namings of the mixtures can be called a >> river-tributary model. Even after tributaries join the main river >> , later course is called with the name of the main river only. In >> some cases, the cultures/traditions being given the name 'Vedic' >> has this feature. >> >> 3. When cultural assimilations take place using the (perceived or >> real) commonalities between the two or more interacting cultures, >> these commonalities, described in Indian Sanskrit knowing >> sections using the word ?kav?kyat?, are described using >> the language of the available doctrinal articulations. Upanishads >> and Vedanta are examples of such articulations used to describe >> the ?kav?kyat?. >> >> 4. Viewing ancient intercultural interactions deterministically >> in a (class)-conflict model, and viewing ancient cultural >> assimilations as class-war averting or class-war pre-empting >> strategies on the part of one of the components of admixture is a >> typical deductive and historical determinist model. >> >> 5. Most of the findings of cultural mixings, or assimilations or >> anything like that found in a current culture by the researchers >> of that current culture may not be known to the insiders of that >> investigated culture. So to theorize as if the culture insider >> knew the 'non-Vedic nature' of his culture and still used the >> word Vedic for a prestige is to attribute unjustifiable motives >> to the tradition bearer. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann >> > wrote: >> >> I sent this response yesterday, but by mistake it only went >> to Patrick and not the list, so I resend it here. >> >> I now see that Valerie made the same point about using >> "Indian astrology." >> >> _____ >> >> Hi Patrick, >> >> It would be easy to replace the name Vedic astrology with >> Indian astrology. It's more accurate, anyway, because that >> encompasses what could be called Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. >> astrology. >> >> There certainly has been a pattern for centuries of >> appropriating the label "Vedic" for enhancing the prestige of >> one's own tradition or text and making it seem very ancient. >> There are claims of being the nectar of the Vedas, as in the >> /Bh?gavata Pur??a/, as well as statements about the Vedas >> ultimately being about this or that god or goddess. These are >> clearly sectarian claims. >> >> Best, >> >> Luis >> _____ >> >> >> On 11/8/2016 4:27 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: >>> Robert, >>> >>> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have >>> been contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on >>> their websites. Their responses as to what they actually >>> mean by it are revealing of a certain discomfort and >>> cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said they >>> did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry >>> standard', so not using the term was counter productive to >>> their own vocational interest. They also said that 'Hindu >>> astrology' sounded even 'less authentic'. This is while >>> knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic astrology' >>> developed well past the Vedic period. >>> >>> Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism >>> ', >>> 'Vedic socialism >>> ' >>> and 'Vedic communism >>> ' >>> to be amongst my favourites. >>> >>> I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book >>> ? >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>> Fellow >>> School of Culture, History & Language >>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>> The Australian National University >>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>> >>> >>> Skype - psdmccartney >>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>> >>> >>> academia >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> Linkedin >>> >>> >>> Edanz >>> >>> >>> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >>> >>> >>> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >>> >>> Ep 2 - Total-am >>> >>> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >>> >>> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >>> >>> >>> A Day in our Ashram >>> >>> >>> Stop animation short film of >>> Shakuntala >>> >>> Forced to Clean Human Waste >>> >>> One of my favourite song >>> s >>> >>> The Philosophy of Cycling >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy >>> interview to a lady from the Bavarian radio who is doing >>> a program on bhakti. She came with a heap of references >>> and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. >>> As with so many things, it is context-sensitive. >>> >>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>> >>> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above >>> upanishad, I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a >>> post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement >>> developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >>> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar >>> it appears to conceptually and temporally conflate >>> disparate things. >>> >>> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of >>> a word as a series of writing symbols in a text is one >>> thing, and that the meaning of the word in a given >>> context may differ from the one in another context. For >>> instance, >>> >>> Howard Resnick wrote: >>> >>> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions >>> bhakti, bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of >>> three standard members of the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >>> >>> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >>> >>> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class >>> on Bhakti in the 90s, he started the class with a review >>> of some portions of the Mantra section of the Vedas, as >>> a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs etc.,) >>> and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including >>> Gaudiya Vaishnavism. >>> >>> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is >>> Vedantic or even ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, >>> not historical. By this I mean that a word such as >>> ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as >>> ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >>> >>> George Hart wrote: >>> >>> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the >>> Vedas is nothing new. >>> >>> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I >>> argued that the word ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is >>> just a sort of sociological label and means nothing more >>> than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be >>> careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when >>> one accepts the religious authority of brahmins does the >>> ?legitimacy? to which George Hart refers become >>> relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti >>> tradition, but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is >>> not relevant whether bhakti can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >>> >>> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk >>> and Roth?s Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) >>> tells us that the word ?bhakti? is already found in the >>> ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? >>> (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a >>> long list of other, later meanings. But if you say >>> >>> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a >>> post-vedic development, and that the bhakti movement >>> developed from the 6th century CE. >>> >>> then you are starting from a particular concept that is >>> labelled ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, >>> for instance, one soberly reads the Bhagavadg?t? without >>> later commentaries, one must conclude that later >>> ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in >>> that text. The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >>> >>> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise >>> the 'vedic' sign in their marketing and promotional >>> material to generate 'authenticity' and legitimacy. >>> >>> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the >>> exclusive right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: >>> traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas and >>> ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With >>> some imagination, one can declare all sorts of things >>> ?Vedic? (my personal favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >>> >>> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time >>> acquired a special halo, and this is associated with the >>> br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG >>> XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This sometimes >>> happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to >>> be ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of >>> opinion about just what democracy is and how it should >>> be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the world is >>> shuddering?). >>> >>> RZ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >>> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >>> Department f?r Asienstudien >>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info >>> (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY >> mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the >> list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing > list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the list's > managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can > change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 03:40:26 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 09:10:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not all sections of those respecting the Vedas are happy with the word 'Vedic' qualifying 'Astrology'. : For example, Arya Samajis consider Astrology 'a superstition' and since they believe that such 'superstitions' can not be Vedic, they do not like coinages such as 'Vedic' Astrology. Even among non-Arya samaji Veda-lovers who like to take pride in Vedanga jyotisha and consider that to be not connected with the destiny-knowing (daivajna) jyotisha, they oppose calling Astrology 'Vedic'. If there is any opportunity to change the nomenclatures in vogue they would love to remove the ' -logy' part of the word since that part of that word gives the impression that Astrology is a science. It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the names of the two traditions since that indicates the method difference rather than giving scope for questions such as which part of the world Mesopotamia or Greece is the origin of western Astrology or whether the so called Vedic Astrology has got to do with the Vedas (alone) or not etc. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 9:29 AM, patrick mccartney wrote: > I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is > exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the > astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, > however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive > system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that > 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge > developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. > > What intrigues me is how this nomenclature sits with the practitioners of > Vedic astrology, especially the ones who know the historicity but feel > stuck using a term they are uncomfortable with. I have only interacted with > a handful of astrologers online. Most whom I've contacted do not respond. > The ones that have and have engaged with me, add to my current, anecdotal > yet growing data set. > > While I'm interested in the historical development of many things, it is > the contemporaneous usages of the adjective 'Vedic' by various groups that > interests me the most. > > Probably the most intriguing expression for me at least is the utopian > aspiration to "re-establish a Vedic India" http://www.vedicindiafoundatio > n.org, the centre of which is considered to be Brahmasthanam, which is at > Bijauri in nth east MP > https://vedicpandits.org This is a Maharishi enterprise. > > How this is enmeshed in also, possibly, creating a Hindu nation and the > way modern yoga practitioners are possibly recruited into supporting this > aspiration through an 'eco-dharmic' / religious-environmentalist > perspective intrigues me. Combined with the way the Indian state uses it's > cultural capital and soft power through the multitrillion-dollar > wellness/spiritual tourism industry is quite pertinent to my query and the > logic of this induction process through the Sanskrit episteme. This is > especially the case when considering particular manifestations like the > 'yoga nationalism' of Ramdev and how western yoga practitioners are > casually/na?vely recruited into a variety of yoga-inflected dispositions. > > For instance, yesterday a prominent yoga teacher in Sydney was shocked to > know that there are Muslims in India! India, to this person, is a Hindu > land full of 'spiritual people' who are all vegetarian and everyone does > yoga. There are also 'some Buddhists'. Obviously this person has never been > to India. Interestingly, they have no desire to either. This is not the > first time I have come across people with these types of ideas. > > So, for some yoga practitioners, including professional, long-term > teachers, India is a type of 'Vedic/Sanskrit *wonderland*'. It is how > this term and allied practices is infused through the social > imaginary-yoga/consumption-scape that interests me the most, and what the > social, political, environmental consequences might be. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 04:47:12 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 10:17:12 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are two aspects to this: 1. Everyday practitioner is not interested in all the details such as v?dakalpavr?k?a vigalitam etc. still applies. 2. itih?sapur???bhy?m v?d?rtha mupabr?mhay?t , the concept of pa?chama v?da etc. are all part of the huge pur??a tradition, which needs to be studied, with a more intricate and nuanced understanding than claiming 'Vedic' for prestige. Such an understanding requires considerations such as Vedic-folk intercultural communication, cultural assimilations, birth of new 'syncretic' cultures, classical-folk (m?rga-d??i) mutual influences, etc. 3. All this, not for the everyday practitioner but for the interested vidwans. How much everyday practitioner is interested in itih?sapur???bhy?m v?d?rtha mupabr?mhay?t , the concept of pa?chama v?da etc. is to be inductively empirically to be surveyed. 4. On the lines of 'India as a linguistic area', if an idea like 'India as a cultural area' is brought in the processes of cultural convergence and cultural substrata and commonalities and differences in their reflection in the literate traditions such as pur??as and oral traditions such as folk 'literature' etc. can be more intricately studied. On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:01 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Nagaraj, > > Yes, I did write what you say, but dismissing what the Pur??as' stress in > this respect is not as simple as attributing it to 'academic' sections of > the 'educated.' There is a long tradition of public Pur??a recitation, and > the different texts are regularly used by followers of the different > divinities. Witness the importance of the Bh?gavata for Bengali vai??avas, > as well as other examples. Each case can, and should be studied by itself, > I agree, but there is an unmistakable "dialogue" that rejects others' > views. I am not proposing a reductionist approach, simply pointing out a > common thread that can be considered together with specific contexts for > the different cases. > > Luis > > ______ > > On 11/10/2016 8:34 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > Luis, > > I am bringing up comparative study which distinguishes the modern cultural > study from the pre-modern one. > > Most of what you say, 'invoking Vedas and Vedic knowledge', sectarian > claims etc. are all textual and are applicable to the 'academic' sections > of the 'educated' or some such sections of the 'elite'. You expressed > awareness of this when you said, " It can be a different matter for the > everyday believer, who doesn't need to be bothered with theological > distinctions." But the point is that it is the everyday believers who are > the majority and what is found in a small minority can not be generalized > for the whole. > > Even while working on the textual aspect or this minority of 'academic' > sections of the 'educated' , each case being studied on its own merits > yields a more complex understanding than a reductionist one. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:33 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann < > reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote: > >> Nagaraj, >> >> You are generalizing. >> >> I simply point out the fact that invoking the Vedas or Vedic knowledge to >> boost one's own tradition is commonplace in Indian religious traditions. >> Yes, each case can be studied in its own cultural context and so on, but >> that doesn't change the fact. In some cases, it may almost a cliche, but it >> is prevalent. The sectarian competition is clear in the literature. It can >> be a different matter for the everyday believer, who doesn't need to be >> bothered with theological distinctions. >> >> For the *Bhagavad G?t?* the Supreme god is Kr???a, for the* ??vara G?t?* >> it is ?iva, for the *Dev? Bh?gavata Pur???* it is Dev?. Likewise, >> different texts say that their preferred divinity* is* the Vedas, or >> brahman, or some variant of that idea. And Puranic stories often tell of >> how a certain god couldn't accomplish a certain job and had to ask for help >> from another one who, therefore, is portrayed as the highest. >> >> Regards, >> >> Luis >> >> _____ >> >> On 11/9/2016 8:44 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: >> >> 1. Cultures mixing with each other, new mixed cultures being born out of >> intercultural interactions, religious and cultural syncretisms, these >> products of mixtures being named after one of the components of the >> mixture are all not the special features of India.How such syncretisms are >> received too varies from social group to social group. It may be called a >> 'good thing' like here >> . >> It may not be called a 'good thing' elsewhere. >> >> 2. One model of such namings of the mixtures can be called a >> river-tributary model. Even after tributaries join the main river , later >> course is called with the name of the main river only. In some cases, the >> cultures/traditions being given the name 'Vedic' has this feature. >> >> 3. When cultural assimilations take place using the (perceived or real) >> commonalities between the two or more interacting cultures, these >> commonalities, described in Indian Sanskrit knowing sections using the >> word ?kav?kyat?, are described using the language of the available >> doctrinal articulations. Upanishads and Vedanta are examples of such >> articulations used to describe the ?kav?kyat?. >> >> 4. Viewing ancient intercultural interactions deterministically in a >> (class)-conflict model, and viewing ancient cultural assimilations as >> class-war averting or class-war pre-empting strategies on the part of one >> of the components of admixture is a typical deductive and historical >> determinist model. >> >> 5. Most of the findings of cultural mixings, or assimilations or anything >> like that found in a current culture by the researchers of that current >> culture may not be known to the insiders of that investigated culture. So >> to theorize as if the culture insider knew the 'non-Vedic nature' of his >> culture and still used the word Vedic for a prestige is to attribute >> unjustifiable motives to the tradition bearer. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann < >> reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote: >> >>> I sent this response yesterday, but by mistake it only went to Patrick >>> and not the list, so I resend it here. >>> >>> I now see that Valerie made the same point about using "Indian >>> astrology." >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Hi Patrick, >>> >>> It would be easy to replace the name Vedic astrology with Indian >>> astrology. It's more accurate, anyway, because that encompasses what could >>> be called Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. astrology. >>> >>> There certainly has been a pattern for centuries of appropriating the >>> label "Vedic" for enhancing the prestige of one's own tradition or text and >>> making it seem very ancient. There are claims of being the nectar of the >>> Vedas, as in the *Bh?gavata Pur??a*, as well as statements about the >>> Vedas ultimately being about this or that god or goddess. These are clearly >>> sectarian claims. >>> >>> Best, >>> Luis >>> _____ >>> >>> >>> On 11/8/2016 4:27 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: >>> >>> Robert, >>> >>> The term 'Vedic astrology' is certainly interesting. I have been >>> contacting astrologers in the West who use this term on their websites. >>> Their responses as to what they actually mean by it are revealing of a >>> certain discomfort and cognitive dissonance. One particular respondent said >>> they did not like the term but it was something of an 'industry standard', >>> so not using the term was counter productive to their own vocational >>> interest. They also said that 'Hindu astrology' sounded even 'less >>> authentic'. This is while knowing that the predictive aspects of 'Vedic >>> astrology' developed well past the Vedic period. >>> >>> Personally, I find the phrases 'Vedic capitalism >>> ', >>> 'Vedic socialism >>> ' and 'Vedic >>> communism >>> ' >>> to be amongst my favourites. >>> >>> I wonder if anyone has a .pdf of this book >>> ? >>> >>> >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Patrick McCartney, PhD >>> Fellow >>> School of Culture, History & Language >>> College of the Asia-Pacific >>> The Australian National University >>> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >>> >>> >>> Skype - psdmccartney >>> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >>> Twitter - @psdmccartney >>> >>> >>> academia >>> >>> - >>> >>> Linkedin >>> >>> >>> Edanz >>> >>> >>> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >>> >>> >>> >>> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >>> >>> Ep 2 - Total-am >>> >>> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >>> >>> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >>> >>> >>> A Day in our Ashram >>> >>> >>> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >>> >>> >>> Forced to Clean Human Waste >>> >>> One of my favourite song >>> s >>> >>> The Philosophy of Cycling >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Robert Zydenbos < >>> zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de> wrote: >>> >>>> By coincidence, just yesterday I gave a lengthy interview to a lady >>>> from the Bavarian radio who is doing a program on bhakti. She came with a >>>> heap of references and quotes and asked me what we are to make of all this. >>>> As with so many things, it is context-sensitive. >>>> >>>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>>> >>>> > While 'bhakti' is mentioned at least in the above upanishad, I >>>> thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic development, and that >>>> the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. To the devotee this >>>> statement might seem unproblematic, but to the scholar it appears to >>>> conceptually and temporally conflate disparate things. >>>> >>>> Perhaps it is relevant to stress that the occurrence of a word as a >>>> series of writing symbols in a text is one thing, and that the meaning of >>>> the word in a given context may differ from the one in another context. For >>>> instance, >>>> >>>> Howard Resnick wrote: >>>> >>>> > [?] I will add that the Bhagavad-gita often mentions bhakti, >>>> bhakti-yoga, bhakta etc, and the Gita is one of three standard members of >>>> the ?Vedanta apparatus.? >>>> >>>> Shyam Ranganathan wrote: >>>> >>>> > When I was a grad student in Joseph O'Connell's class on Bhakti in >>>> the 90s, he started the class with a review of some portions of the Mantra >>>> section of the Vedas, as a backdrop to later developments in Tamil (??v?rs >>>> etc.,) and further developments in Bhakti Vedanta---including Gaudiya >>>> Vaishnavism. >>>> >>>> If such statements are meant as claims that bhakti is Vedantic or even >>>> ?Vedic?, they are purely theological, not historical. By this I mean that a >>>> word such as ?bhakti? is ?interpreted? by later religious thinkers as >>>> ?implied? in the ?Veda? or ?Ved?nta?. Indeed, as >>>> >>>> George Hart wrote: >>>> >>>> > Gaining legitimacy through identification with the Vedas is nothing >>>> new. >>>> >>>> Already at a conference in Toronto, 26 years ago, I argued that the >>>> word ?Vedic? in a traditional sense is just a sort of sociological label >>>> and means nothing more than ?accepted by brahmins?. (Here one must again be >>>> careful and ask ?which brahmins? and ?why?.) Only when one accepts the >>>> religious authority of brahmins does the ?legitimacy? to which George Hart >>>> refers become relevant. (For instance, V?ra?aivism is a bhakti tradition, >>>> but for the vast majority of V?ra?aivas it is not relevant whether bhakti >>>> can be called ?Vedic? or not.) >>>> >>>> Therefore (this is for Patrick): watch out. B?htlingk and Roth?s >>>> Petersburger W?rterbuch (vol. 5, col. 163) tells us that the word ?bhakti? >>>> is already found in the ?gveda (8,27,11) in the sense of ?distribution? >>>> (?Austheilung, Vertheilung?). B?htlingk and Roth give a long list of other, >>>> later meanings. But if you say >>>> >>>> > [?] I thought 'bhakti yoga' was quite clearly a post-vedic >>>> development, and that the bhakti movement developed from the 6th century CE. >>>> >>>> then you are starting from a particular concept that is labelled >>>> ?bhakti?, and in that sense you are right. If, for instance, one soberly >>>> reads the Bhagavadg?t? without later commentaries, one must conclude that >>>> later ?bhakti? is a far cry from the rather subdued theism in that text. >>>> The same goes for the ?vet??vataropani?at. >>>> >>>> > I am interested in how organisations operationalise the 'vedic' sign >>>> in their marketing and promotional material to generate 'authenticity' and >>>> legitimacy. >>>> >>>> It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right >>>> to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the >>>> Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. With some >>>> imagination, one can declare all sorts of things ?Vedic? (my personal >>>> favourite is ?Vedic astrology?). >>>> >>>> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special >>>> halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, >>>> mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). This >>>> sometimes happens to words (e.g., ?democracy?. Everybody wants to be >>>> ?democratic?, even if there are big differences of opinion about just what >>>> democracy is and how it should be. Meanwhile, it?s November 8, and the >>>> world is shuddering?). >>>> >>>> RZ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos >>>> Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >>>> Department f?r Asienstudien >>>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages >>> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where >>> you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages >> to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where >> you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Sat Nov 12 08:42:03 2016 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 09:42:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dipak and George, You might check the following volume: ?Atharvavedins in Tantric Territory: The ??girasakalpa Texts of the Oriya Paippal?dins and their Connection with the Trika and the K?l?kula, with critical editions of the Par?japavidhi, the Par?mantravidhi,and the *Bhadrak?l?-mantravidhiprakara?a.? In: The Atharvaveda and its Paippal?da ??kh?: Historical and Philological Papers on a Vedic Tradition, edited by Arlo Griffiths and Annette Schmiedchen. Aachen: Shaker Verlag, 2007, pp. 195?311. The first two texts are available in The Hamburg Tantric Studies website here . Hope this helps, Best Alessandro Battistini Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden 2016-11-11 21:16 GMT+01:00 George Thompson : > Dear Dipak, > > I have sent your question to me to the Indology List, because I myself > don't know the answer. I hope that a list member can. > > Best wishes, > > George > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I myself > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > >> Has the Aangirasakalpa been published? >> Best >> Dipak >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:51 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> > Dear Dipak, >> > >> > I did not get it. I didn't see it on the Indology list. Maybe you >> should >> > re-send your message to the List. I have been visiting doctors all >> > week.... >> > >> > George >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya < >> dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I sent a mail to Indology asking about the Aangirasakalpa >> >> Did you get it? >> >> Dipak >> > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 09:03:48 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 10:03:48 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Passing of Ludo Rocher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Belated condolences to Prof. Rosane Rocher and to family, colleagues and students of Prof. Ludo Rocher. Jan Houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 3 November 2016 at 20:58, Olivelle, J P wrote: > Dear Friends: > > To add to the fine eulogy of Fred, the last book authored by Ludo was > published just a couple of months before his passing, thanks to the work of > our colleague Federico Squarcini: > > *Vyavah?rasaukya: The Treatise on Legal Procedure in the ?o?ar?nanda > composed at the Instance of ?o?aramalla during the Reign of Akbar.* > Firenze: Societ? Editrica Fiorentina, 2916. > > His *Keine Schriften *were edited by Don Davis: > > *Studies in Hindu Law and Dharma??stra. *London: Anthem Press, 2012. > > With best wishes, > > Patrick Olivelle > > > > > On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Smith, Frederick M > wrote: > > Dear RISA-L sah?dayas, > > Several of Professor Ludo Rocher?s former students learned this morning of > his passing last night, at age 90, peacefully, at his home in Philadelphia. > Ludo was more than a mentor and guide for his students, myself included. He > was a lifetime friend and a role model of scholarship, elegance, > positivity, dignity, and, not least for many of us, of how to act in a most > congenial manner as a department chair in the face of truculent > administrators and colleagues. He was the chair of the Department of > Oriental Studies (later renamed Asian and Middle Eastern Studies), and the > Department of South Asian Studies, at the University of Pennsylvania for > twenty-four years, and taught actively for nearly forty years, from > 1966-2004. He mentored not just his own students, but many of his students? > students. He was a paragon of knowledge, virtue, and love for his work. He > was born in Antwerp in 1926, spent several years in India in the 1950s, > then returned repeatedly, usually to Kolkata. Much of his work took him to > archives in London, Germany, and elsewhere. He is survived by his wife, the > wonderful Rosane Rocher, whose indefatigable love and ministrations kept > him alive and at work for at least fifteen years beyond what was expected > at the time. Rosane was not just his wife, but collaborator on many of his > works, in addition to being a fine scholar in her own right. Ludo was one > of the most visible and important scholars of Dharma??stra of the twentieth > and twenty-first centuries. I will leave it to others to add more. I will, > however, add only one note ? His Sanskrit was awesome, his versatility was > unparalleled, and he constantly made the most difficult passages completely > transparent through his complete understanding of the grammar and the > lucidity of his presentation, whether it was in graduate classes, in is > careful reading of dissertations, or anything in his extravagantly long > list of publications. Hopefully, this list. Including his most recent book, > published this year(!), will be forthcoming soon. > > Kind regards > Fred Smith > University of Iowa > > > > _______________________________________________ > RISA-L mailing list > RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu > https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 09:07:06 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 10:07:06 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication, this time ... Message-ID: New publication, this time in the form of a website: www.memepeace.org The underlying ideas I summarize in three verses (with obvious intertextual references): (1) ??????????????????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ? ????? ??? ? ??????????? ???? ??????????? ? (2-3) ??? ???????????????????? ?????? ? ? ?????? ? ?????????????? ???????? ? ?????????????????? ??????????? ? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ? (1) and (2-3) are also the summary of two recently published articles, respectively of: ?Des conflits armes ? la comp?tition dans la cr?ation de paix et de progr?s : un projet de gestion m?m?tique? appeared in: After Paris 13.11.15 : conflits, exodes, attentats; notes et analyses de chercheurs du monde entier, par Collectif sous la direction de Pierre Musso. Paris : Editions Manucius, 2016. pp. 110-113. ?La ideodiversidad como valor planetario? appeared in: Eadem utraque Europa : revista de historia cultural e intelectual, A?o 12, No. 17, Agosto 2016, ISSN 1885-7221, pp. 11-42 Best, Jan Houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbroo at abo.fi Sat Nov 12 18:52:24 2016 From: mbroo at abo.fi (mbroo at abo.fi) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 20:52:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication announcement: Radha Tantra Message-ID: <20161112205224.36ssmdw1wk8okss8@webmail1.abo.fi> Dear List Members, I am happy to announce the publication of my book The Radha Tantra: A critical edition and annotated translation. It is available here: https://www.routledge.com/The-Radha-Tantra-A-critical-edition-and-annotated-translation/Broo/p/book/9781138892361 Or alternatively here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Radha-Tantra-annotated-translation-Traditions/dp/113889236X Unfortunately, as with other Routledge publications, the price is very high. I hope a less expensive paperback edition will follow after some time. Sincerely, M?ns -- Dr. M?ns Broo Senior Lecturer of Comparative Religion Editor of Temenos, Nordic Journal of Comparative Religion ?bo Akademi University Fabriksgatan 2 FI-20500 ?bo, Finland phone: +358-2-2154398 fax: +358-2-2154902 mobile: +358-50-5695754 From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 21:20:22 2016 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 16 15:20:22 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication announcement: Radha Tantra In-Reply-To: <20161112205224.36ssmdw1wk8okss8@webmail1.abo.fi> Message-ID: <613E8970-F614-4087-87F5-10F69A4B478C@gmail.com> Thank you for sharing this news, and congratulations- the Radha Tantra is a fascinating work, and it is great to now have a translation and critical introduction. Looking forward to reading it. Best, TWW Sent from my iPhone > On 12-Nov-2016, at 12:52 PM, mbroo at abo.fi wrote: > > > Dear List Members, > > I am happy to announce the publication of my book The Radha Tantra: A critical edition and annotated translation. It is available here: > > https://www.routledge.com/The-Radha-Tantra-A-critical-edition-and-annotated-translation/Broo/p/book/9781138892361 > > Or alternatively here: > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Radha-Tantra-annotated-translation-Traditions/dp/113889236X > > Unfortunately, as with other Routledge publications, the price is very high. I hope a less expensive paperback edition will follow after some time. > > Sincerely, > M?ns > > -- > Dr. M?ns Broo > Senior Lecturer of Comparative Religion > Editor of Temenos, Nordic Journal of Comparative Religion > ?bo Akademi University > Fabriksgatan 2 > FI-20500 ?bo, Finland > phone: +358-2-2154398 > fax: +358-2-2154902 > mobile: +358-50-5695754 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 03:51:39 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 16 09:21:39 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] (no subject) Message-ID: 13.11.2016 I am sorry for the typos in my previous mail. Please read ?Dear Colleague, This is an interesting question that troubled me sometime and a short discussion was made in the Department of Sanskrit, Pali and Prakrit, Visva Bharati. We have no authentic document on the composition of the army excepting the caste obligation of the Kshatriyas. The reality however is reflected in lullaby which specifically mentions people belonging to the Dom caste as foot soldiers. There is a Rajput caste which claims to be Kshatriya. But they might be descendants of acculturated invaders. India is a melting pot, the castes are of varied origin adapted to a pattern. It makes interesting study. The only work on the origin and evolution of the castes is the Bengali book Vanger Jaatiiya itihaas by N.N.Basu published around 1908 Best? DB From arjunsr1987 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 06:58:39 2016 From: arjunsr1987 at gmail.com (Arjuna S R) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 16 12:28:39 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two-day workshop@DPRC, Manipal University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, We are happy to invite you all for the two-day workshop on "e-text encoding of Mahabharata" at Dvaita Philosophy Resource Centre, Department of European Studies, Manipal University on 14th and 15th November, 2016. Please find the attached invitation for more details. Kindly forward the information to interested people. -- Regards, Arjuna S.R. RESEARCH COORDINATOR Dvaita Philosophy Resource Centre (DPRC), Department of European Studies, Behind Post Office, Manipal - 576104 Phone: 0820-2923053 Mobile: +91-7676599990 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: workshop-dprc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 277206 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Sun Nov 13 10:37:48 2016 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 16 10:37:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with article Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F760A1BA32@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Dear List, I should greatly appreciate it if someone could provide me with a pdf copy of the following article: Maekawa, Kazuya, and Wakaha Mori, 2011. "Dilmun, Magan, and Meluhha in early Mesopotamian history: 2500-1600 BC." In: Toshiki Osada and Michael Witzel (eds.), Cultural relations between the Indus and the Iranian Plateau during the third millennium BCE. Indus Project, Research Institute for Humanities and Nature, June 7-8, 2008. (Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora 7.) Cambridge, MA: Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University. Pp. 245-269. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 13 15:24:28 2016 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (stella sandahl) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 16 10:24:28 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two-day workshop@DPRC, Manipal University In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2474E3D5-D24B-447E-A7DB-81C457AFE803@sympatico.ca> Don't you think 2 days notice is a bit too short for anyone to be able to rush all the way to Manipal? Or is it a misprint for Nov. 2017? Cordially yours Stella Sandahl On Nov 13, 2016, at 1:58 AM, Arjuna S R wrote: > Dear all, > > We are happy to invite you all for the two-day workshop on "e-text encoding of Mahabharata" at Dvaita Philosophy Resource Centre, Department of European Studies, Manipal University on 14th and 15th November, 2016. > > Please find the attached invitation for more details. > > Kindly forward the information to interested people. > > -- > Regards, > > Arjuna S.R. > > RESEARCH COORDINATOR > Dvaita Philosophy Resource Centre (DPRC), > Department of European Studies, > Behind Post Office, > Manipal - 576104 > > Phone: 0820-2923053 > Mobile: +91-7676599990 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Sun Nov 13 19:11:23 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 16 20:11:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) Message-ID: <5828BADB.50106@uni-muenchen.de> patrick mccartney wrote: > I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? etc. etc.) As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? to Vi??u. Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of worship needed to be chosen accordingly. Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. RZ From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Sun Nov 13 21:12:18 2016 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 16 21:12:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with article In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F760A1BA32@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: If anyone has a copy of this article, I'd appreciate one too! Thanks Geoffrey ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Kenneth Gregory Zysk Sent: 13 November 2016 10:37 To: indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with article Dear List, I should greatly appreciate it if someone could provide me with a pdf copy of the following article: Maekawa, Kazuya, and Wakaha Mori, 2011. "Dilmun, Magan, and Meluhha in early Mesopotamian history: 2500-1600 BC." In: Toshiki Osada and Michael Witzel (eds.), Cultural relations between the Indus and the Iranian Plateau during the third millennium BCE. Indus Project, Research Institute for Humanities and Nature, June 7-8, 2008. (Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora 7.) Cambridge, MA: Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University. Pp. 245-269. Many thanks in advance. Best, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Sun Nov 13 23:35:43 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 00:35:43 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5828F8CF.2030905@uni-muenchen.de> Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Dear Robert, > >>It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. > >> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). > > ------- Not after Arya Samaj and other organizations similar to that which are in vogue in huge numbers today. Here I beg to disagree. In all my years of living in India I have not been able to see that either the Arya Samaj in "huge numbers", or other organizations (which ones?) in "huge numbers", have been anywhere near to giving the term 'Vedic' a new, non-brahminical twist. With all due respect: in 'my' significantly big part of India, the Arya Samaj is just an obscure club with a shabby office in a lost corner of Bangalore city where intercaste couples get married according to a 'Vedic' rite, only to quickly forget all about the Samaj after the wedding. Perhaps things are different in some corner of northern India. Yet I am still firmly convinced that for the vast majority of Hindus, 'Vedic' = brahminical. > People moving away from their traditional caste occupations (right cum responsibility occupations) is happening for all those occupations which are no longer givers of either a worldly benefit or a social status. Number of Brahmin families moving away from their Vedaadhyayana and Vedaadhyaapana is on huge rise. Priestly Brahmins are depressed that they are not able to get marriage alliances. That may be true, but it is not relevant. Those who traditionally have the right to ved?dhy?pana may choose not to exercise that right. But they still have that right. Those who traditionally do not have the right remain without that right. Many years ago, there was a curious legal case in Karnataka over the question whether V?ra?aivas have ved?dhik?ra (this was objected to by certain brahmins). The court finally decided in 1935, after a tortuous discussion about the relative standing of different communities, that V?ra?aivas do have that right, and a book about this matter was published (in Kannada: ?sth?navidv?n M.G. Na?ju???r?dhya, _V?ra?aiva Ved?dhik?ra Vijaya_. Mysore: Sree Panchacharya Electric Press, 1st ed. 1969, 2nd ed. 1981. 85 pp.). THAT is relevant. Irrespective of what the worldwide scholarly community and you and I may think about the right to ved?dhy?pana, the fact is that there are brahmins who believe it their privilege as a matter of birthright, and they decide what is 'Vedic' and what isn't, as well as about who else is allowed to decide what 'Vedic' teachings are. Their belief is so strong that they are willing to go to court over it, and the court needs a lot of time to decide. It was considered so important by the victors that a book was written about it, and when I bought my copy in 1996 it had already gone into a second edition. There are other, similar, labels that are intended to serve as a kind of indications of quality linked to brahmins. Throughout southern India, one finds restaurants bearing the sign 'Brahmins Hotel' (or 'Udupi Hotel', because M?dhva brahmins from the Udupi region have the reputation ? in my view fully justified ? of being good cooks). The associations seem clear: 'Vedic' = 'brahmin' = 'good'. Whether we agree or not, is something else. :-) RZ From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 08:01:38 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 09:01:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication, this time ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dear list-members, as unicode devanagari is apparently not readable in all browsers : here a transcribed version of the verses (with correction in p?da 1b) : (1) yasy?hi?s?prati??h?sti tyaj*y*ate tasya sa?nidhau / vairas tath? ca loke?smin heya? du?kham an?gatam // (2-3) ki? j??natulyapavitram atra labhyate? vidy? ca d???ivic?rit? prabh?vat? / n?n?vidh?gamad???i?u prati??hite praj?? vivekavat? bhavaty asambhram? // *** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jan E.M. Houben Date: 2016-11-12 10:07 GMT+01:00 Subject: New publication, this time ... To: "indology at list.indology.info" New publication, this time in the form of a website: www.memepeace.org The underlying ideas I summarize in three verses (with obvious intertextual references): (1) ??????????????????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ? ????? ??? ? ??????????? ???? ??????????? ? (2-3) ??? ???????????????????? ?????? ? ? ?????? ? ?????????????? ???????? ? ?????????????????? ??????????? ? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ? (1) and (2-3) are also the summary of two recently published articles, respectively of: ?Des conflits arm?s ? la comp?tition dans la cr?ation de paix et de progr?s : un projet de gestion m?m?tique? appeared in: After Paris 13.11.15 : conflits, exodes, attentats; notes et analyses de chercheurs du monde entier, par Collectif sous la direction de Pierre Musso. Paris : Editions Manucius, 2016. pp. 110-113. ?La ideodiversidad como valor planetario? appeared in: Eadem utraque Europa : revista de historia cultural e intelectual, A?o 12, No. 17, Agosto 2016, ISSN 1885-7221, pp. 11-42 Best, Jan Houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 09:03:45 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 14:33:45 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: <5828F8CF.2030905@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: Thanks Robert for bringing in the Veerashaiva Veda learning fact into the discussion. I wanted to mention that. I was looking for references such as ( in Kannada: ?sth?navidv?n M.G. Na?ju???r?dhya, _V?ra?aiva Ved?dhik?ra Vijaya_. Mysore: Sree Panchacharya Electric Press, 1st ed. 1969, 2nd ed. 1981. 85 pp.). that you mentioned. Now, we have it here, thanks to your post now. I heard many Virashaiva boys here in Telangana, where I stay now and in Rayalaseema(southern Andhra Pradesh ) where I used to stay earlier, recite Vedas melodiously with authentic confident voices. You were right in thinking that things are different with Arya Samaj in north India. In north India, Arya Samaj is much bigger than in south India. Here in Hyderabad where I stay now, we have a close to north India intensity of Arya Samaj. You wanted to know which other organizations I had in mind. You already have the Virashaivas from the premodern context. Still many contemporary sources on Virashaivas describe them as opposed to the Vedas. Thanks for providing reference to establish that they are not and they learn the Vedas and fought to retain the right to learn when that right was challenged. Gayatri Parivar, Svaadhyaaya, Sri Aurobindo organizations, Chinmaya Mission etc. Most of the 'modern' 'Hindu' organizations do not recognize the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning. Post-Independent Indian governments and courts have been repeatedly questioning the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning or priestly activities in temples. >There are other, similar, labels that are intended to serve as a kind of indications of quality linked to brahmins. Throughout southern India, one finds restaurants bearing the sign 'Brahmins Hotel' (or 'Udupi Hotel', because M?dhva brahmins from the Udupi region have the reputation ? in my view fully justified ? of being good cooks). ----- You were right in limiting your observation to south India. Even within south India, this applies only to the vegetarian hotels. Majority of the population in the parts where Udupi Brahmin hotels do exist are non-vegetarians. Even within south India, Kerala is predominantly non-vegetarian. Tamil Nadu has Iyer hotels. Kerala has Arya Bhavans. But in most parts of Kerala, the number of vegetarian hotels is negligibly small. In Maharashtra, in Pune where I stayed for some years, vegetarian hotels have the label "Pure Veg" without any Brahmin tag. Gujarat is predominantly vegetarian. Udupi Brahmin tag is not used, not required there. In coastal Andhra Pradesh, there are a huge number of vegetarian hotels which do not carry the Brahmin tag in their sign Boards. There is now a big Pure Veg Dhaba culture in Hyderabad. None of the sign boards of these dhabas carries the Brahmin tag. Brahmin tag is not used, not required, nor does it sell for any other goods or services not part of 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals'. Life of Indians is enormously much beyond 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals'. In the case of good and services related to all those aspects beyond Life of Indians is enormously much beyond 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals' , In all these cases, Brahmin is not equal to good. It can be said that in all these cases, Brahmin is equal to not good also. Even within the goods and services related 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals' , grocery used in the rituals is sold in a shop without a Brahmin tag. Milk is sold exclusively by a non-Brahmin milk-vendor. Flowers are sold by the non-Brahmin flower-vendor. In a marriage is instrumental music is played by non-Brahmin music player and so on. In all these cases, Brahmin is not equal to good. It can be said that in all these cases, Brahmin is equal to not good also. Matters where 'Vedic' = 'brahmin' = 'good' are a miniscule part of the life of Indians. Even here, this association of 'quality', ' authenticity' etc. with Brahmins is very much part of association of 'quality' ,' authenticity' etc. with a certain caste in the case of the activities that have been traditionally the right cum responsibility of that caste. Traditional activities like Veda-learning and Veda-teaching etc. have been no more the exclusive rights cum responsibilities of Brahmins than the different other activities were exclusive rights cum responsibilities of different other castes. With the life style changes among Indians , certain traditional caste-occupations which are paying as per the modern life style have been retained by the caste members , certain other traditional caste-occupations which are not paying nor status-giving as per the modern life style have not been retained by the caste members. It is in this context that I mentioned Brahmins leaving their traditional caste occupation. Today, for something to be 'good' in India, it need not be 'Brahmin' nor 'Vedic'. In the case of 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals', 'Brahmin' could be 'good'. But even there the use of the word 'Vedic' (Vaidik, Vaidika the local equivalents of this English word ) is known only to the 'educated'. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > > >>It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right to > ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the Vedas > and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. > > > >> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special > halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, > mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). > > > > ------- Not after Arya Samaj and other organizations similar to that > which are in vogue in huge numbers today. > > Here I beg to disagree. > > In all my years of living in India I have not been able to see that either > the Arya Samaj in "huge numbers", or other organizations (which ones?) in > "huge numbers", have been anywhere near to giving the term 'Vedic' a new, > non-brahminical twist. With all due respect: in 'my' significantly big part > of India, the Arya Samaj is just an obscure club with a shabby office in a > lost corner of Bangalore city where intercaste couples get married > according to a 'Vedic' rite, only to quickly forget all about the Samaj > after the wedding. > > Perhaps things are different in some corner of northern India. Yet I am > still firmly convinced that for the vast majority of Hindus, 'Vedic' = > brahminical. > > > People moving away from their traditional caste occupations (right cum > responsibility occupations) is happening for all those occupations which > are no longer givers of either a worldly benefit or a social status. Number > of Brahmin families moving away from their Vedaadhyayana and > Vedaadhyaapana is on huge rise. Priestly Brahmins are depressed that they > are not able to get marriage alliances. > > That may be true, but it is not relevant. Those who traditionally have the > right to ved?dhy?pana may choose not to exercise that right. But they still > have that right. Those who traditionally do not have the right remain > without that right. > > Many years ago, there was a curious legal case in Karnataka over the > question whether V?ra?aivas have ved?dhik?ra (this was objected to by > certain brahmins). The court finally decided in 1935, after a tortuous > discussion about the relative standing of different communities, that > V?ra?aivas do have that right, and a book about this matter was published > (in Kannada: ?sth?navidv?n M.G. Na?ju???r?dhya, _V?ra?aiva Ved?dhik?ra > Vijaya_. Mysore: Sree Panchacharya Electric Press, 1st ed. 1969, 2nd ed. > 1981. 85 pp.). > > THAT is relevant. Irrespective of what the worldwide scholarly community > and you and I may think about the right to ved?dhy?pana, the fact is that > there are brahmins who believe it their privilege as a matter of > birthright, and they decide what is 'Vedic' and what isn't, as well as > about who else is allowed to decide what 'Vedic' teachings are. Their > belief is so strong that they are willing to go to court over it, and the > court needs a lot of time to decide. It was considered so important by the > victors that a book was written about it, and when I bought my copy in 1996 > it had already gone into a second edition. > > There are other, similar, labels that are intended to serve as a kind of > indications of quality linked to brahmins. Throughout southern India, one > finds restaurants bearing the sign 'Brahmins Hotel' (or 'Udupi Hotel', > because M?dhva brahmins from the Udupi region have the reputation ? in my > view fully justified ? of being good cooks). > > The associations seem clear: 'Vedic' = 'brahmin' = 'good'. Whether we > agree or not, is something else. :-) > > RZ > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 09:54:06 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 15:24:06 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Correction: Brahmin tag is not used, not required, nor does it sell for any other goods or services not part of 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals'. Life of Indians is enormously much beyond 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals'. In the case of goods and services related to all those aspects beyond Life of Indians is enormously much beyond 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals' , In all these cases, Brahmin is not equal to good. It can be said that in all these cases, Brahmin is equal to not good also. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Thanks Robert for bringing in the Veerashaiva Veda learning fact into the > discussion. I wanted to mention that. I was looking for references such as > > ( in Kannada: ?sth?navidv?n M.G. Na?ju???r?dhya, _V?ra?aiva Ved?dhik?ra > Vijaya_. Mysore: Sree Panchacharya Electric Press, 1st ed. 1969, 2nd ed. > 1981. 85 pp.). > > that you mentioned. Now, we have it here, thanks to your post now. > > I heard many Virashaiva boys here in Telangana, where I stay now and in > Rayalaseema(southern Andhra Pradesh ) where I used to stay earlier, recite > Vedas melodiously with authentic confident voices. > > You were right in thinking that things are different with Arya Samaj in > north India. In north India, Arya Samaj is much bigger than in south > India. Here in Hyderabad where I stay now, we have a close to north > India intensity of Arya Samaj. > > You wanted to know which other organizations I had in mind. > > You already have the Virashaivas from the premodern context. Still many > contemporary sources on Virashaivas describe them as opposed to the Vedas. > Thanks for providing reference to establish that they are not and they > learn the Vedas and fought to retain the right to learn when that right was > challenged. > > Gayatri Parivar, Svaadhyaaya, Sri Aurobindo organizations, Chinmaya > Mission etc. Most of the 'modern' 'Hindu' organizations do not recognize > the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning. Post-Independent Indian > governments and courts have been repeatedly questioning the exclusive right > of Brahmins over Veda learning or priestly activities in temples. > > >There are other, similar, labels that are intended to serve as a kind of > indications of quality linked to brahmins. Throughout southern India, one > finds restaurants bearing the sign 'Brahmins Hotel' (or 'Udupi Hotel', > because M?dhva brahmins from the Udupi region have the reputation ? in my > view fully justified ? of being good cooks). > > ----- You were right in limiting your observation to south India. Even > within south India, this applies only to the vegetarian hotels. Majority of > the population in the parts where Udupi Brahmin hotels do exist are > non-vegetarians. Even within south India, Kerala is predominantly > non-vegetarian. Tamil Nadu has Iyer hotels. Kerala has Arya Bhavans. But in > most parts of Kerala, the number of vegetarian hotels is negligibly > small. In Maharashtra, in Pune where I stayed for some years, vegetarian > hotels have the label "Pure Veg" without any Brahmin tag. Gujarat is > predominantly vegetarian. Udupi Brahmin tag is not used, not required > there. In coastal Andhra Pradesh, there are a huge number of vegetarian > hotels which do not carry the Brahmin tag in their sign Boards. There is > now a big Pure Veg Dhaba culture in Hyderabad. None of the sign boards of > these dhabas carries the Brahmin tag. > > Brahmin tag is not used, not required, nor does it sell for any other > goods or services not part of 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals'. Life of > Indians is enormously much beyond 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals'. In the > case of good and services related to all those aspects beyond Life of > Indians is enormously much beyond 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals' , In all > these cases, Brahmin is not equal to good. It can be said that in all these > cases, Brahmin is equal to not good also. > > Even within the goods and services related 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals' , > grocery used in the rituals is sold in a shop without a Brahmin tag. Milk > is sold exclusively by a non-Brahmin milk-vendor. Flowers are sold by the > non-Brahmin flower-vendor. In a marriage is instrumental music is played by > non-Brahmin music player and so on. In all these cases, Brahmin is not > equal to good. It can be said that in all these cases, Brahmin is equal to > not good also. > > Matters where 'Vedic' = 'brahmin' = 'good' are a miniscule part of the > life of Indians. Even here, this association of 'quality', ' authenticity' > etc. with Brahmins is very much part of association of 'quality' ,' > authenticity' etc. with a certain caste in the case of the activities > that have been traditionally the right cum responsibility of that caste. > Traditional activities like Veda-learning and Veda-teaching etc. have been > no more the exclusive rights cum responsibilities of Brahmins than the > different other activities were exclusive rights cum responsibilities of > different other castes. > > With the life style changes among Indians , certain traditional > caste-occupations which are paying as per the modern life style have been > retained by the caste members , certain other traditional caste-occupations > which are not paying nor status-giving as per the modern life style have > not been retained by the caste members. It is in this context that I > mentioned Brahmins leaving their traditional caste occupation. > > Today, for something to be 'good' in India, it need not be 'Brahmin' nor > 'Vedic'. > > In the case of 'Hindu' 'religious' 'rituals', 'Brahmin' could be 'good'. > But even there the use of the word 'Vedic' (Vaidik, Vaidika the local > equivalents of this English word ) is known only to the 'educated'. > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > >> Nagaraj Paturi wrote: >> >> > Dear Robert, >> > >> >>It is basically simple: the br?hma?a var?a claims the exclusive right >> to ved?dhy?pana, in other words: traditionally, brahmins decide what the >> Vedas and ?Vedic? literature are and what their meaning is. >> > >> >> The words ?Veda? and ?Vedic? at some point in time acquired a special >> halo, and this is associated with the br?hma?a var?a in its idealized, >> mythical form (cf. BhG XVIII.42: ?amo damas tapa? ?auca?, etc.). >> > >> > ------- Not after Arya Samaj and other organizations similar to that >> which are in vogue in huge numbers today. >> >> Here I beg to disagree. >> >> In all my years of living in India I have not been able to see that >> either the Arya Samaj in "huge numbers", or other organizations (which >> ones?) in "huge numbers", have been anywhere near to giving the term >> 'Vedic' a new, non-brahminical twist. With all due respect: in 'my' >> significantly big part of India, the Arya Samaj is just an obscure club >> with a shabby office in a lost corner of Bangalore city where intercaste >> couples get married according to a 'Vedic' rite, only to quickly forget all >> about the Samaj after the wedding. >> >> Perhaps things are different in some corner of northern India. Yet I am >> still firmly convinced that for the vast majority of Hindus, 'Vedic' = >> brahminical. >> >> > People moving away from their traditional caste occupations (right cum >> responsibility occupations) is happening for all those occupations which >> are no longer givers of either a worldly benefit or a social status. Number >> of Brahmin families moving away from their Vedaadhyayana and >> Vedaadhyaapana is on huge rise. Priestly Brahmins are depressed that they >> are not able to get marriage alliances. >> >> That may be true, but it is not relevant. Those who traditionally have >> the right to ved?dhy?pana may choose not to exercise that right. But they >> still have that right. Those who traditionally do not have the right remain >> without that right. >> >> Many years ago, there was a curious legal case in Karnataka over the >> question whether V?ra?aivas have ved?dhik?ra (this was objected to by >> certain brahmins). The court finally decided in 1935, after a tortuous >> discussion about the relative standing of different communities, that >> V?ra?aivas do have that right, and a book about this matter was published >> (in Kannada: ?sth?navidv?n M.G. Na?ju???r?dhya, _V?ra?aiva Ved?dhik?ra >> Vijaya_. Mysore: Sree Panchacharya Electric Press, 1st ed. 1969, 2nd ed. >> 1981. 85 pp.). >> >> THAT is relevant. Irrespective of what the worldwide scholarly community >> and you and I may think about the right to ved?dhy?pana, the fact is that >> there are brahmins who believe it their privilege as a matter of >> birthright, and they decide what is 'Vedic' and what isn't, as well as >> about who else is allowed to decide what 'Vedic' teachings are. Their >> belief is so strong that they are willing to go to court over it, and the >> court needs a lot of time to decide. It was considered so important by the >> victors that a book was written about it, and when I bought my copy in 1996 >> it had already gone into a second edition. >> >> There are other, similar, labels that are intended to serve as a kind of >> indications of quality linked to brahmins. Throughout southern India, one >> finds restaurants bearing the sign 'Brahmins Hotel' (or 'Udupi Hotel', >> because M?dhva brahmins from the Udupi region have the reputation ? in my >> view fully justified ? of being good cooks). >> >> The associations seem clear: 'Vedic' = 'brahmin' = 'good'. Whether we >> agree or not, is something else. :-) >> >> RZ >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 14 11:19:09 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 06:19:09 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication, this time ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nice Sanskrit verses, Jan. Madhav 2016-11-14 3:01 GMT-05:00 Jan E.M. Houben : > dear list-members, > > as unicode devanagari is apparently not readable in all browsers : here a > transcribed version of the verses (with correction in p?da 1b) : > > (1) > > yasy?hi?s?prati??h?sti tyaj*y*ate tasya sa?nidhau / > > vairas tath? ca loke?smin heya? du?kham an?gatam // > > > > (2-3) > > ki? j??natulyapavitram atra labhyate? > > vidy? ca d???ivic?rit? prabh?vat? / > > n?n?vidh?gamad???i?u prati??hite > > praj?? vivekavat? bhavaty asambhram? // > > > > *** > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jan E.M. Houben > Date: 2016-11-12 10:07 GMT+01:00 > Subject: New publication, this time ... > To: "indology at list.indology.info" > > New publication, this time in the form of a website: www.memepeace.org > > The underlying ideas I summarize in three verses (with obvious > intertextual references): > > (1) > ??????????????????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ? > ????? ??? ? ??????????? ???? ??????????? ? > > (2-3) > ??? ???????????????????? ?????? ? ? > ?????? ? ?????????????? ???????? ? > ?????????????????? ??????????? ? > ??????? ???????? ???????????? ? > > (1) and (2-3) are also the summary of two recently published articles, > respectively of: > > ?Des conflits arm?s ? la comp?tition dans la cr?ation de paix et de > progr?s : un projet de gestion m?m?tique? > appeared in: > After Paris 13.11.15 : conflits, exodes, attentats; notes et analyses de > chercheurs du monde entier, par Collectif sous la direction de Pierre > Musso. Paris : Editions Manucius, 2016. pp. 110-113. > > ?La ideodiversidad como valor planetario? > appeared in: > Eadem utraque Europa : revista de historia cultural e intelectual, > A?o 12, No. 17, Agosto 2016, ISSN 1885-7221, pp. 11-42 > > Best, Jan Houben > > > > > *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* > > Directeur d??tudes > > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > > *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques > > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > www.ephe.fr > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 11:26:57 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 12:26:57 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: New publication, this time ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Madhav, thanks, and looking forward to seeing you bient?t in Paris... Jan 2016-11-14 12:19 GMT+01:00 Madhav Deshpande : > Nice Sanskrit verses, Jan. > > Madhav > > 2016-11-14 3:01 GMT-05:00 Jan E.M. Houben : > >> dear list-members, >> >> as unicode devanagari is apparently not readable in all browsers : here a >> transcribed version of the verses (with correction in p?da 1b) : >> >> (1) >> >> yasy?hi?s?prati??h?sti tyaj*y*ate tasya sa?nidhau / >> >> vairas tath? ca loke?smin heya? du?kham an?gatam // >> >> >> >> (2-3) >> >> ki? j??natulyapavitram atra labhyate? >> >> vidy? ca d???ivic?rit? prabh?vat? / >> >> n?n?vidh?gamad???i?u prati??hite >> >> praj?? vivekavat? bhavaty asambhram? // >> >> >> >> *** >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Jan E.M. Houben >> Date: 2016-11-12 10:07 GMT+01:00 >> Subject: New publication, this time ... >> To: "indology at list.indology.info" >> >> New publication, this time in the form of a website: www.memepeace.org >> >> The underlying ideas I summarize in three verses (with obvious >> intertextual references): >> >> (1) >> ??????????????????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ? >> ????? ??? ? ??????????? ???? ??????????? ? >> >> (2-3) >> ??? ???????????????????? ?????? ? ? >> ?????? ? ?????????????? ???????? ? >> ?????????????????? ??????????? ? >> ??????? ???????? ???????????? ? >> >> (1) and (2-3) are also the summary of two recently published articles, >> respectively of: >> >> ?Des conflits arm?s ? la comp?tition dans la cr?ation de paix et de >> progr?s : un projet de gestion m?m?tique? >> appeared in: >> After Paris 13.11.15 : conflits, exodes, attentats; notes et analyses de >> chercheurs du monde entier, par Collectif sous la direction de Pierre >> Musso. Paris : Editions Manucius, 2016. pp. 110-113. >> >> ?La ideodiversidad como valor planetario? >> appeared in: >> Eadem utraque Europa : revista de historia cultural e intelectual, >> A?o 12, No. 17, Agosto 2016, ISSN 1885-7221, pp. 11-42 >> >> Best, Jan Houben >> >> >> >> >> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >> >> Directeur d??tudes >> >> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >> >> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >> >> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >> >> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> >> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> >> www.ephe.fr >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Mon Nov 14 12:47:44 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 13:47:44 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=ABra=C5=9Baivas_and_Vedas,_etc._(was:_bhakti)?= Message-ID: <5829B270.1020509@uni-muenchen.de> Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Thanks Robert for bringing in the Veerashaiva Veda learning fact into the discussion. [?] > I heard many Virashaiva boys here in Telangana, where I stay now and in Rayalaseema(southern Andhra Pradesh ) where I used to stay earlier, recite Vedas melodiously with authentic confident voices. [?] > You already have the Virashaivas from the premodern context. Still many contemporary sources on Virashaivas describe them as opposed to the Vedas. Thanks for providing reference to establish that they are not and they learn the Vedas and fought to retain the right to learn when that right was challenged. [?] For the sake of completeness and clarity (or, as some may think: complexity and confusion), I must add a few words. (1) To begin with: there are V?ra?aivas of various kinds, who also have organized themselves in different ways. One significant division among the ma?has is whether a ma?ha is one of the so-called pa?cap??has (of which there are five) or a viraktama?ha (innumerable). The relationship between these two groups is a difficult one. Depending on one's point of view, one may say that the section of the V?ra?aiva community that predominantly associates itself with the small group of five consists of (a) descendants of former brahmins, or (b) they are quasi-brahmins, or (c) they are brahmin infiltrators in the V?ra?aiva community who distort and betray the teachings of Basava. This brings us to questions concerning what constitutes 'real' V?ra?aivism, what Basava really thought about the Vedas and brahminical literature in general, and what is the composition of the V?ra?aiva community with its sub-communities. To my knowledge, Basava did not really reject the Vedas, but thought them unnecessary (just like temple worship). What he did reject was blind scripturalism, and this made him say scathing things about the Vedas and Vedic learning. (Bhakti, however, is essential.) A widely held opinion in Karnataka is that the V?ra?aiva families with brahminical airs and aspirations (known as '?r?dhyas') are the descendants of brahmins from Andhra Pradesh (the ?r??ailam area) ? so that fits your [Nagaraj's] observation quite well. (2) The sub-communal distinction also shows in the attitude toward foreigners (as an example of people from outside). I have always been treated politely and hospitably in viraktama?has. But when I once visited one of the pa?cap??has, not far from Sringeri, in search of their publications (a learned Bangalorean devotee of that ma?ha advised me to go there), the personnel did everything to chase me away as soon as possible. I was not allowed to buy books, not allowed to meet the ma?h?dhipati, not allowed to use the toilet. Therefore I will most probably not go there again (life being too short to waste on such characters). Those people behaved more 'brahminically' than any brahmins I have ever met. (3) The satisfaction among V?ra?aivas that the court has acknowledged their ved?dhik?ra can be interpreted in more than one way. The aforementioned book by Na?ju???r?dhya goes into theological details like the validity of i??ali?gap?je vs. sth?varali?gap?je (i.e., 'our practices are just as good as brahmin practices!'). > Gayatri Parivar, Svaadhyaaya, Sri Aurobindo organizations, Chinmaya Mission etc. Most of the 'modern' 'Hindu' organizations do not recognize the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning. But please note: ved?dhyayana (Veda learning) has always been open to all br?hma?as, k?atriyas and vai?yas. Ved?dhy?pana (Veda teaching) was the prerogative of brahmins. I.e., brahmins determined what the Vedas are and mean. > Post-Independent Indian governments and courts have been repeatedly questioning the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning or priestly activities in temples. Here I would say: we know that social practice is not so easily changed. E.g., the Indian government has also banned caste discrimination. > Gujarat is predominantly vegetarian. Udupi Brahmin tag is not used, not required there. Perhaps because Udupi is simply too far away from Gujarat? ;-) > Milk is sold exclusively by a non-Brahmin milk-vendor. Milk (because it comes from a cow) is the one drink which even an orthodox, purity-minded brahmin may receive from the hands of a non-brahmin. Therefore I could serve it (together with fruits with thick peels) to some young brahmin p??ha??l? students who had the courage to enter my house. > In a marriage is instrumental music is played by non-Brahmin music player and so on. [?] In all these cases, Brahmin is not equal to good. It can be said that in all these cases, Brahmin is equal to not good also. I am not convinced that this is a good argument. Of course society depends on the services of more than the few percent of the populace with brahmin status, who traditionally did not perform certain kinds of labour. We also seem to have a logical misunderstanding. I do not wish to say 'the brahminical label is always good, is the only good, and should be put on anything that is good'. What I wish to say is (using the language of set theory): 'what is vaidika / brahminical' is a subset of 'what is good'. > Today, for something to be 'good' in India, it need not be 'Brahmin' nor 'Vedic'. Agreed (cf. my previous statement). But then why is there this proliferation of 'Vedic' this-and-that-and-the-other? Even if there are modernistic fringe groups (around Sri Aurobindo etc.) that ignore the old rules (Aurobindo indeed wrote on the Vedas, although he was a k?yastha, not a br?hma?a), the association of vaidikatva with br?hma?atva and social prestige seems beyond debate. RZ From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 13:28:57 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 08:28:57 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: <5828BADB.50106@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: <987F13B3-052B-4328-8F79-07DA98872601@gmail.com> Dear all, Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe this discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the lunar astrology ?hinted at? in the Ved??gajyoti?a, indeed Vedic astrology seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of Vedic astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists and Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected in the B?hatsa?hit?. As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure misnomer. No scholars on jyoti?a would commit such travesty, from Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. Best, Bill Mak -- Bill M. Mak, PhD Visiting research scholar Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Associate Professor Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com > On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > patrick mccartney wrote: > >> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. > > If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? etc. etc.) > > As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. > > The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? to Vi??u. > > Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of worship needed to be chosen accordingly. > > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. > > RZ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmisra at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:04:11 2016 From: nmisra at gmail.com (Nityanand Misra) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 20:34:11 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=ABra=C5=9Baivas_and_Vedas,_etc._(was:_bhakti)?= In-Reply-To: <5829B270.1020509@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: On 14 November 2016 at 18:17, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > (1) To begin with: there are V?ra?aivas of various kinds, who also have > organized themselves in different ways. One significant division among the > ma?has is whether a ma?ha is one of the so-called pa?cap??has (of which > there are five) or a viraktama?ha (innumerable). The relationship between > these two groups is a difficult one. Depending on one's point of view, one > may say that the section of the V?ra?aiva community that predominantly > associates itself with the small group of five consists of (a) descendants > of former brahmins, or (b) they are quasi-brahmins, or (c) they are brahmin > infiltrators in the V?ra?aiva community who distort and betray the > teachings of Basava. > > View (a) needs evidence. Do we have any? Apart from genetic evidence, is there any other way to prove it? View (b): what exactly is meant by a quasi-brahmin? View (c), frankly speaking, is ludicrous and borders on conspiracy theory (I hope it is not meant to be a joke). As if the Brahmins have an underground organization (like the Mossad) which *infiltrates* other communities to distort their teachings!! > > > Gayatri Parivar, Svaadhyaaya, Sri Aurobindo organizations, Chinmaya > Mission etc. Most of the 'modern' 'Hindu' organizations do not recognize > the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning. > > But please note: ved?dhyayana (Veda learning) has always been open to all > br?hma?as, k?atriyas and vai?yas. Ved?dhy?pana (Veda teaching) was the > prerogative of brahmins. I.e., brahmins determined what the Vedas are and > mean. > > Ved?dhy?pana is indeed done by Arya Samajis who are not Brahmin by birth. There is an influential Arya Samaj Pandit by the name Mahender Pal Arya who was born a Muslim and teaches Vedas ( http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-a-journey-from-maulvi-to-pandit-2047727). It is also noteworthy that not only did the Arya Samaja give new meanings to most mantra-s of Veda-s, they also gave a new definition of Veda by restricting it to only the *mantra* (*sa?hit?*) portion, different from the traditional definition *mantra?br?hma?ayorvedan?madheyam* (?.?rau.s?. 24.1.31). > > Gujarat is predominantly vegetarian. Udupi Brahmin tag is not used, not > required there. > > Perhaps because Udupi is simply too far away from Gujarat? ;-) > > Still, Udupi/Udipi restaurants are common in Ahmedabad, where I lived for four years (2000 to 2004). There is a popular one at Paldi Char Rasta which was frequented by many students and tourists back then. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:58:35 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 21:28:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: <987F13B3-052B-4328-8F79-07DA98872601@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. Robert, today, what is being called as 'Vedic' astrology in the English knowing circles is not practiced only by Brahmins. Whatever dressing or cosmetics is being done is being done by the western circles of the practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by them. Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or Vaidika. You mentioned a Jaina practitioner and her appearance on TV. Here, we have Muslim practitioners appearing/advertising on TV. There are tribal practitioners claiming authentic tribal jyotishya. None of the Brahmin or non-Brahmin practitioners appearing on TV or the TV people themselves use the words such as 'Vedic' 'Vaidik' or 'Vaidika'. Such belief systems and their believers do not need any such tags. Satisfaction of knowing the destiny and handling it is all that isimportant. Not whether it is Jaina, Muslim or Tribal , Tantric, or whatever. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > Dear all, > > Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe this > discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the lunar > astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic astrology > seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of Vedic > astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists and > Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected in > the *B?hatsa?hit?*. > > As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers > actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common > with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was > completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets > and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic > corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything > under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure > misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from Kane, > PV Sarma to Pingree. > > Best, > > Bill Mak > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > > patrick mccartney wrote: > > I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is > exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the > astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, > however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive > system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that > 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge > developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. > > > If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the field > of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western hybris > to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? etc. etc.) > > As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are > also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a > regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long > and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, > and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. > > The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of > pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person > to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The > next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should > pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this > mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? > to Vi??u. > > Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how > this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings > (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if > the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of > worship needed to be chosen accordingly. > > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' > at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window > dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. > > RZ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:54:16 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 22:24:16 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=ABra=C5=9Baivas_and_Vedas,_etc._(was:_bhakti)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The satisfaction among V?ra?aivas that the court has acknowledged their ved?dhik?ra can be interpreted in more than one way. The aforementioned book by Na?ju???r?dhya goes into theological details like the validity of i??ali?gap?je vs. sth?varali?gap?je (i.e., 'our practices are just as good as brahmin practices!'). " 'our practices are just as good as brahmin practices!')" itself shows that the people who fought are not Brahmins. What they fought for and got was Vedaadhikaara. Similar is the situation in the places in Telangana I mentioned. Those from whom, I said, I heard Veda-recitations were not Brahmins. When I say these modern groups 'learn' , it does not mean they learn from Brahmin Vedaadhyaapakas. They create they own lineage of gurusishyparampara irrespective of whether the teacher is a Brahmin or not. > Today, for something to be 'good' in India, it need not be 'Brahmin' nor 'Vedic'. > Agreed (cf. my previous statement). But then why is there this proliferation of 'Vedic' this-and-that-and-the-other? Even if there are modernistic fringe groups (around Sri Aurobindo etc.) that ignore the old rules (Aurobindo indeed wrote on the Vedas, although he was a k?yastha, not a br?hma?a), the association of vaidikatva with br?hma?atva and social prestige seems beyond debate. The English word 'Vedic' being used as a qualifier can happen only in the English knowing particularly western circles of some 'Hinduism' related activities. There is so much happening out there beyond these where this word or the entities qualified by it do not matter at all. Not looking at that bigger picture is the source of this over-focus on this non-issue. "the association of vaidikatva with br?hma?atva and social prestige seems beyond debate." is no argument. It is just a restatement of a claim to which sufficient counter evidences have been provided. Study of Indian society has gone more intricate and more nuanced than this old obsolete understanding of the early modern studies. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Nityanand Misra wrote: > On 14 November 2016 at 18:17, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > >> >> (1) To begin with: there are V?ra?aivas of various kinds, who also have >> organized themselves in different ways. One significant division among the >> ma?has is whether a ma?ha is one of the so-called pa?cap??has (of which >> there are five) or a viraktama?ha (innumerable). The relationship between >> these two groups is a difficult one. Depending on one's point of view, one >> may say that the section of the V?ra?aiva community that predominantly >> associates itself with the small group of five consists of (a) descendants >> of former brahmins, or (b) they are quasi-brahmins, or (c) they are brahmin >> infiltrators in the V?ra?aiva community who distort and betray the >> teachings of Basava. >> >> > View (a) needs evidence. Do we have any? Apart from genetic evidence, is > there any other way to prove it? > View (b): what exactly is meant by a quasi-brahmin? > View (c), frankly speaking, is ludicrous and borders on conspiracy theory > (I hope it is not meant to be a joke). As if the Brahmins have an > underground organization (like the Mossad) which *infiltrates* other > communities to distort their teachings!! > > >> >> > Gayatri Parivar, Svaadhyaaya, Sri Aurobindo organizations, Chinmaya >> Mission etc. Most of the 'modern' 'Hindu' organizations do not recognize >> the exclusive right of Brahmins over Veda learning. >> >> But please note: ved?dhyayana (Veda learning) has always been open to all >> br?hma?as, k?atriyas and vai?yas. Ved?dhy?pana (Veda teaching) was the >> prerogative of brahmins. I.e., brahmins determined what the Vedas are and >> mean. >> >> > Ved?dhy?pana is indeed done by Arya Samajis who are not Brahmin by birth. > There is an influential Arya Samaj Pandit by the name Mahender Pal Arya who > was born a Muslim and teaches Vedas (http://www.dnaindia.com/ > india/report-a-journey-from-maulvi-to-pandit-2047727). It is also > noteworthy that not only did the Arya Samaja give new meanings to most > mantra-s of Veda-s, they also gave a new definition of Veda by restricting > it to only the *mantra* (*sa?hit?*) portion, different from the > traditional definition *mantra?br?hma?ayorvedan?madheyam* (?.?rau.s?. > 24.1.31). > > >> > Gujarat is predominantly vegetarian. Udupi Brahmin tag is not used, not >> required there. >> >> Perhaps because Udupi is simply too far away from Gujarat? ;-) >> >> > Still, Udupi/Udipi restaurants are common in Ahmedabad, where I lived for > four years (2000 to 2004). There is a popular one at Paldi Char Rasta which > was frequented by many students and tourists back then. > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Nov 14 22:15:58 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 17:15:58 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_B=E1=B9=9Bhacchabdaratna_of_Harid=C4=ABk=E1=B9=A3ita?= Message-ID: If anyone is interested in the first (avyay?bh?v?nta) volume of Harid?k?ita's B?hacchabdaratna, edited by Sitaram Shastri, Banaras, here is the download link from WeTransfer: https://we.tl/VxpFWMn002 The link will be alive till Nov 21, 2016. If anyone has pdfs of other volumes of this work, I would like to know. Best, Madhav Deshpande Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Mon Nov 14 22:19:28 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 14:19:28 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti/Vedic astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1cd0af1e-b038-a4ee-b9ab-62f242f8da13@berkeley.edu> Nagaraj, > It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the names > of the two traditions since that indicates the method difference > rather than giving scope for questions such as which part of the world > Mesopotamia or Greece is the origin of western Astrology or whether > the so called Vedic Astrology has got to do with the Vedas (alone) or > not etc. There is also sidereal astrology in the " West," so that is not really a good marker of the difference. Also, at the time of Greek influence on Indian astronomy the two zodiacs more or less coincided, so there was no difference between sidereal and tropical (this applies to both Indian/South Asian astrology and to "Mediterranean" astrology). The date of when that happened will depend of exactly where one considers the beginning of Aries (the constellation) to be. Horoscopic astrology was mainly imported into India and then adapted, as shown by the /Y?vana Jataka/. Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 00:25:12 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 10:55:12 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nagaraj, I'm fascinated by your insights into the heterogenous nature of jyoti?a. Particularly the claim regarding Tribal jyoti?a. Are you able to share any more detail on this? This seems like a great topic for a paper. It seems as if western practitioners and their client base are the only ones using the term 'vedic astrology'. However, a quick search of google for 'vedic astrology india' shows several examples of Indian-based astrologers that claim to use and identify with the term 'vedic astrology' - for instance - http://www.indastro.com/ - now, perhaps they are based in India but cater to a western clientele? Or perhaps, those based in NYC only cater to videsilog? But even if one searches for '????? ???????' it brings up a heap of hits. So your claim that this "is being done by the western circles of the practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by them. Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or Vaidika", seems to need some nuancing. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' > at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window > dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. > > Robert, today, what is being called as 'Vedic' astrology in the English > knowing circles is not practiced only by Brahmins. Whatever dressing or > cosmetics is being done is being done by the western circles of the > practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by them. > Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not even need > this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or Vaidika. > > You mentioned a Jaina practitioner and her appearance on TV. Here, we have > Muslim practitioners appearing/advertising on TV. There are tribal > practitioners claiming authentic tribal jyotishya. None of the Brahmin or > non-Brahmin practitioners appearing on TV or the TV people themselves use > the words such as 'Vedic' 'Vaidik' or 'Vaidika'. > > Such belief systems and their believers do not need any such > tags. Satisfaction of knowing the destiny and handling it is all that > isimportant. Not whether it is Jaina, Muslim or Tribal , Tantric, or > whatever. > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe this >> discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the lunar >> astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic astrology >> seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of Vedic >> astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists and >> Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected in >> the *B?hatsa?hit?*. >> >> As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers >> actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common >> with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was >> completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets >> and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic >> corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything >> under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure >> misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from >> Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. >> >> Best, >> >> Bill Mak >> >> -- >> Bill M. Mak, PhD >> >> Visiting research scholar >> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> New York University >> 15 East 84th Street >> New York, NY 10028 >> US >> >> Associate Professor >> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> ??????????? >> >> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >> copies of my publications may be found at: >> http://www.billmak.com >> >> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos >> wrote: >> >> patrick mccartney wrote: >> >> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is >> exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the >> astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, >> however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive >> system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that >> 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge >> developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. >> >> >> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the >> field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western >> hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? >> etc. etc.) >> >> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are >> also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a >> regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long >> and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, >> and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. >> >> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of >> pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person >> to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The >> next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should >> pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this >> mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? >> to Vi??u. >> >> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how >> this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings >> (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if >> the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of >> worship needed to be chosen accordingly. >> >> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' >> at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window >> dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >> >> RZ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:46:56 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 16 22:46:56 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: <987F13B3-052B-4328-8F79-07DA98872601@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear list members, For a detailed history of Indian Astronomy/Astrology from the Vedic period to the modern period see: Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra by S. B. Dikshit. There is an english translation of this by R.V. Vaidya published by the India Meteorological Department. Harry Spier On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > Dear all, > > Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe this > discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the lunar > astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic astrology > seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of Vedic > astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists and > Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected in > the *B?hatsa?hit?*. > > As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers > actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common > with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was > completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets > and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic > corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything > under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure > misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from Kane, > PV Sarma to Pingree. > > Best, > > Bill Mak > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > > patrick mccartney wrote: > > I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is > exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the > astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, > however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive > system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that > 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge > developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. > > > If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the field > of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western hybris > to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? etc. etc.) > > As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are > also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a > regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long > and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, > and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. > > The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of > pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person > to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The > next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should > pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this > mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? > to Vi??u. > > Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how > this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings > (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if > the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of > worship needed to be chosen accordingly. > > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' > at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window > dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. > > RZ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 04:06:00 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 09:36:00 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sharing the snap shot of a book from the first page of the heap of hits for ????? ???????. it has "?????? ??????? ??????? ( ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ) ". It uses words ????? ?????? ( with printer's devils) for greater accuracy. Most of these 'Hindi' pages have the English Vedic Astrology in brackets after the Hindi ????? ???????. That itself makes it clear what the source of the Hindi ????? ??????? is. Patrick, your mentioning the internet and the web world itself shows who the communicators and target audience are. I should have probably repeated my more nuanced words from my other posts that the 'educated' (western/modern educated) among Indians are among the target audience (apart from the ?????? ??? and ?????? ???? ???.) When I said "Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or Vaidika", I had the non-internet scenario in mind. For instance, if a general client starts out to visit a traditional Indian astrologer, he says, ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? or something like that but does not use the word ????? ???????. This ????? ?? does not use words like ????? ??????? on his sign board if at all he puts up one. Even in south India, one does not say, ????? ??????????????? ???????? ??????? or something like that. Similarly sign boards in south India, of a traditional Indian astrologer do not contain words like ????? ????????? . Now, tribal jyotishya: Patrick, I think most of the Indologists probably are aware of the presence of tribal soothsayer /fortune teller character either male or female in classical Indian narrative literature. Most of the Indologists during their visits to India might have seen the actual soothsaying /fortune telling performances/ sessions of tribal soothsayers /fortune tellers. But what I was talking about was a recent development , later even to my contribution of the encyclopaedia entry https://www.academia.edu/8612777/_Fortune_Tellers_in_South_Asian_Folklore_an_Encyclopaedia_Routledge_230-232._Margaret_Mills_et_al._ed_New_York._2003 Tribal soothsayers/fortune tellers are putting up advertisements in print and electronic media, giving a city address for consultation. It even says " We are the genuine tribals ('Koya doralam', koya is the name of a tribe Koya doralam = lit. we are the Koya kings, meaning we are the Koya people) " Their using the Sanskrit word jyotishya(m) is similar to the tribal medicine practitioners using the word vaidya(m) to be able to communicate to the non-tribal audience. This is part of many other developments with regard to the 'urbanization' of tribals, particularly that of the practitioners of tribal medicine, tribal fortune telling and other tribal occult practices which have been popular with the urban Indian people from centuries. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 5:55 AM, patrick mccartney wrote: > Nagaraj, > > I'm fascinated by your insights into the heterogenous nature of jyoti?a. > Particularly the claim regarding Tribal jyoti?a. Are you able to share any > more detail on this? This seems like a great topic for a paper. It seems as > if western practitioners and their client base are the only ones using the > term 'vedic astrology'. However, a quick search of google for 'vedic > astrology india' shows several examples of Indian-based astrologers that > claim to use and identify with the term 'vedic astrology' - for instance - > http://www.indastro.com/ - now, perhaps they are based in India but cater > to a western clientele? Or perhaps, those based in NYC only cater to > videsilog? But even if one searches for '????? ???????' it brings up a heap > of hits. So your claim that this "is being done by the western circles of > the practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by > them. Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not > even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or > Vaidika", seems to need some nuancing. > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing >> 'Vedic' at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious >> window dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >> >> Robert, today, what is being called as 'Vedic' astrology in the English >> knowing circles is not practiced only by Brahmins. Whatever dressing or >> cosmetics is being done is being done by the western circles of the >> practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by them. >> Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not even >> need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or >> Vaidika. >> >> You mentioned a Jaina practitioner and her appearance on TV. Here, we >> have Muslim practitioners appearing/advertising on TV. There are tribal >> practitioners claiming authentic tribal jyotishya. None of the Brahmin or >> non-Brahmin practitioners appearing on TV or the TV people themselves use >> the words such as 'Vedic' 'Vaidik' or 'Vaidika'. >> >> Such belief systems and their believers do not need any such >> tags. Satisfaction of knowing the destiny and handling it is all that >> isimportant. Not whether it is Jaina, Muslim or Tribal , Tantric, or >> whatever. >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Bill Mak wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe >>> this discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the >>> lunar astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic >>> astrology seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of >>> Vedic astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists >>> and Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected >>> in the *B?hatsa?hit?*. >>> >>> As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers >>> actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common >>> with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was >>> completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets >>> and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic >>> corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything >>> under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure >>> misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from >>> Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Bill Mak >>> >>> -- >>> Bill M. Mak, PhD >>> >>> Visiting research scholar >>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>> New York University >>> 15 East 84th Street >>> New York, NY 10028 >>> US >>> >>> Associate Professor >>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>> ??????????? >>> >>> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>> http://www.billmak.com >>> >>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos >>> wrote: >>> >>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>> >>> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is >>> exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the >>> astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, >>> however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive >>> system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that >>> 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge >>> developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. >>> >>> >>> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the >>> field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western >>> hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? >>> etc. etc.) >>> >>> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are >>> also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a >>> regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long >>> and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, >>> and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. >>> >>> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of >>> pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person >>> to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The >>> next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should >>> pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this >>> mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? >>> to Vi??u. >>> >>> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how >>> this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings >>> (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if >>> the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of >>> worship needed to be chosen accordingly. >>> >>> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' >>> at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window >>> dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >>> >>> RZ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 04:06:39 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 14:36:39 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: parts 1 and 2 of the english version are available below https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra1 https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra2 All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > For a detailed history of Indian Astronomy/Astrology from the Vedic period > to the modern period see: > Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra by S. B. Dikshit. > > There is an english translation of this by R.V. Vaidya > published by the India Meteorological Department. > > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe this >> discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the lunar >> astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic astrology >> seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of Vedic >> astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists and >> Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected in >> the *B?hatsa?hit?*. >> >> As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers >> actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common >> with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was >> completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets >> and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic >> corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything >> under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure >> misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from >> Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. >> >> Best, >> >> Bill Mak >> >> -- >> Bill M. Mak, PhD >> >> Visiting research scholar >> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> New York University >> 15 East 84th Street >> New York, NY 10028 >> US >> >> Associate Professor >> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> ??????????? >> >> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >> copies of my publications may be found at: >> http://www.billmak.com >> >> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos >> wrote: >> >> patrick mccartney wrote: >> >> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is >> exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the >> astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, >> however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive >> system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that >> 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge >> developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. >> >> >> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the >> field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western >> hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? >> etc. etc.) >> >> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are >> also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a >> regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long >> and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, >> and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. >> >> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of >> pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person >> to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The >> next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should >> pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this >> mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? >> to Vi??u. >> >> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how >> this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings >> (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if >> the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of >> worship needed to be chosen accordingly. >> >> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' >> at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window >> dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >> >> RZ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Tue Nov 15 06:43:14 2016 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 07:43:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti/Vedic astrology In-Reply-To: <1cd0af1e-b038-a4ee-b9ab-62f242f8da13@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: This is getting off the topic a bit, but just to clarify: both Babylonian and early Greek-language astrology was explicitly sidereal in the sense that it defined the vernal equinoctial point as falling somewhere within the sign Aries rather than Aries commencing from it. The same seems to have been true of pre-Islamic Persian astrology. So I agree with Luis that 'sidereal' won't do as a synonym of 'Indian'. Indian astrology differs in many other technical respects from its cousin traditions further west: some aspects of the Hellenistic system never made it to India, or only did so a millennium later with the Perso-Arabic transmission, and new methods were developed in India, some on the basis of indigenous lore such as the nak?atras. Martin Den 2016-11-14 kl. 23:19, skrev Luis Gonzalez-Reimann: > > Nagaraj, > >> It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the >> names of the two traditions since that indicates the method >> difference rather than giving scope for questions such as which part >> of the world Mesopotamia or Greece is the origin of western Astrology >> or whether the so called Vedic Astrology has got to do with the Vedas >> (alone) or not etc. > > There is also sidereal astrology in the " West," so that is not really > a good marker of the difference. Also, at the time of Greek influence > on Indian astronomy the two zodiacs more or less coincided, so there > was no difference between sidereal and tropical (this applies to both > Indian/South Asian astrology and to "Mediterranean" astrology). The > date of when that happened will depend of exactly where one considers > the beginning of Aries (the constellation) to be. > > Horoscopic astrology was mainly imported into India and then adapted, > as shown by the /Y?vana Jataka/. > > Luis > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 07:55:43 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 13:25:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti/Vedic astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Luis and Martin, That was just a model of solution I was trying to offer to get out of this 'problematic' (?) word 'Vedic' in the name of Vedic Astrology. My point was that some method indicating name might solve the problem of source-claims. Also, even if some such solution is ironed out, languages and names in them are such tricky entities that they may not come fully under the control of a group of scholars. Best, -N On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Martin Gansten wrote: > This is getting off the topic a bit, but just to clarify: both Babylonian > and early Greek-language astrology was explicitly sidereal in the sense > that it defined the vernal equinoctial point as falling somewhere within > the sign Aries rather than Aries commencing from it. The same seems to have > been true of pre-Islamic Persian astrology. So I agree with Luis that > 'sidereal' won't do as a synonym of 'Indian'. Indian astrology differs in > many other technical respects from its cousin traditions further west: some > aspects of the Hellenistic system never made it to India, or only did so a > millennium later with the Perso-Arabic transmission, and new methods were > developed in India, some on the basis of indigenous lore such as the > nak?atras. > > Martin > > > > Den 2016-11-14 kl. 23:19, skrev Luis Gonzalez-Reimann: > > Nagaraj, > > It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the names of > the two traditions since that indicates the method difference rather > than giving scope for questions such as which part of the world Mesopotamia > or Greece is the origin of western Astrology or whether the so called Vedic > Astrology has got to do with the Vedas (alone) or not etc. > > > There is also sidereal astrology in the " West," so that is not really a > good marker of the difference. Also, at the time of Greek influence on > Indian astronomy the two zodiacs more or less coincided, so there was no > difference between sidereal and tropical (this applies to both Indian/South > Asian astrology and to "Mediterranean" astrology). The date of when that > happened will depend of exactly where one considers the beginning of Aries > (the constellation) to be. > > Horoscopic astrology was mainly imported into India and then adapted, as > shown by the *Y?vana Jataka*. > > Luis > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Tue Nov 15 09:34:33 2016 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 10:34:33 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= Message-ID: Dear all, with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link . Best, Alessandro Battistini Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Tue Nov 15 09:54:51 2016 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 09:54:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI Message-ID: <20161115095451.4853.qmail@f4mail-235-241.rediffmail.com> If anybody may kindly enlighten me on the existence of any medieval composition on any Historical context on India ,prior to RAJTARANGINI? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Nov 15 11:23:39 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 12:23:39 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C32660C-9F31-40BA-8001-8CE6CECEBE1B@uclouvain.be> Thank you much for this, dear Alessandro. Note that beside Bhoja's "?la?k?rika" Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a, there is another, grammatical (in s?tra-form), Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a ascribed to the same (which is not distinguished in Cahill's Bibliography). The edition of the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a-vy?kara?a, in 8 adhy?ya-s, ascribed to Bhoja, with the (probably 11th c., contemporary) v?tti H?dayah?ri?? of N?r?ya?abha??a Da??an?tha, was left incomplete in the Trivandrum Sanskrit Series; it was planned in 5 volumes, of which the first four only were issued: vol. I [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313457 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407040] = TSS no. 117 (1935) contains the adh. 1, vol. II [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313459 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407042] = no. 127 (1937) the adh. 2, vol. III [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313458 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407041] = no. 140 (1938) the adh. 3-4, and vol. IV [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313401 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/406984] = no. 154 (1948) the adh. 5-6 [+ index]. The vol. V with the adh. 7-8 was said ?in the press? from 1948 onwards : it should have had the no. 182 in the series (the no. with the title of the vol. is still said ?not yet published? in 2005). One can fear that the manuscript of this last volume is now lost (I mean that the work possibly ready for the press was destroyed or is lost somewhere in the ORI&ML building?). The edition of the complete grammar by T. R. Chintamani published in the Madras University Sanskrit Series no. 11 (1937: http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/52186) has only the text of the s?tra-s, as it is the case of the 1992 ed. of the last (8th) adh. (which adds for each s?tra an useful anvaya giving the s?tr?rtha and a Gujarati commentary by the editor : http://books.google.be/books?id=uICH235KSUMC). Due to the importance of this post-p??inean work, as stressed on by Louis Renou (?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes, t. 3, 1957, PICI series no. 4, pp. 121-7) and Robert Birw? (?N?r?ya?a Da??an?tha?s Commentary on Rules III.2, 106-121 of Bhoja?s Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a?, JAOS 84/2, 1964, pp. 150-162), the completing of the edition of the H?dayah?ri?? v?tti is something hoped. Here are a few Mss. I hinted : Alph Index KUML vol. 4, ser. no. 19347-8 = Mss no. C.1846 (complete), with ref. to the ?DCS [of the COL ser. no.] 557?, and Ms. no. 839B; vol. 7, ser. no. 34766-7 = Ms. no. 19827 (complete), and Ms. no. 14758 ; Descr. Cat. Calicut, p. 335-6 no. 591-2 (incompl.) [all mss. in Mal. script on palm leaves]; GOML Alph. Ind. vol. 2, ser. no. 23096 = Ms. R. 4179 Tr. Cat. vol. 4/1/SkrtB, 1928, pp. 6160-2 [transcr. Dev. on paper < Mal. ms. of Kunankulam, incompl. adh. 1-mid 4 ; cf. the complete ms. of the s?tra only described ibid. R. no. 3279 pp. 4880-1, transcr. D on paper < Mal. ms Kottakal] Best wishes, Christophe Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 10:34, Alessandro Battistini a ?crit : > Dear all, > > with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link. > > Best, > > Alessandro Battistini > Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue Nov 15 11:43:30 2016 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 06:43:30 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <9C32660C-9F31-40BA-8001-8CE6CECEBE1B@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Thanks, Christophe and Alessandro. Great help in accessing these rare books. Madhav Deshpande On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 6:23 AM, Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > Thank you much for this, dear Alessandro. > > Note that beside Bhoja's "?la?k?rika" Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a, there is > another, grammatical (in *s?tra*-form), Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a ascribed > to the same (which is not distinguished in Cahill's Bibliography). > > The edition of the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a-*vy**?kara**?**a*, in 8 *adhy* > *?ya*-s, ascribed to Bhoja, with the (probably 11th c., contemporary) *v* > *?**tti *H?dayah?ri?? of N?r?ya?abha??a Da??an?tha, was left incomplete > in the Trivandrum Sanskrit Series; it was planned in 5 volumes, of which > the first four only were issued: > > vol. I [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313457 or http:// > www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407040] = TSS no. 117 (1935) contains > the *adh.* 1, > > vol. II [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313459 or http:// > www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407042] = no. 127 (1937) the *adh.* 2, > > vol. III [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313458 or http:// > www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407041] = no. 140 (1938) the *adh. *3-4, > > and vol. IV [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313401 or http:// > www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/406984] = no. 154 (1948) the *adh. *5-6 > [+ index]. > > The vol. V with the *adh. *7-8 was said ?in the press? from 1948 > onwards : it should have had the no. 182 in the series (the no. with the > title of the vol. is still said ?not yet published? in 2005). One can fear > that the manuscript of this last volume is now lost (I mean that the work > possibly ready for the press was destroyed or is lost somewhere in the > ORI&ML building?). > > The edition of the complete grammar by T. R. Chintamani published in the > Madras University Sanskrit Series no. 11 (1937: http://www.new.dli. > ernet.in/handle/2015/52186) has only the text of the *s**?**tra*-s, as it > is the case of the 1992 ed. of the last (8th) *adh. *(which adds for each > *s?tra* an useful *anvaya* giving the *s**?**tr**?rtha *and a Gujarati > commentary by the editor : http://books.google.be/books?id=uICH235KSUMC). > > Due to the importance of this post-p??inean work, as stressed on by Louis > Renou (*?tudes v?diques et p**?**?**in?ennes*, t. 3, 1957, PICI series > no. 4, pp. 121-7) and Robert Birw? (?N?r?ya?a Da??an?tha?s Commentary on > Rules III.2, 106-121 of Bhoja?s Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a?, JAOS 84/2, 1964, > pp. 150-162), the completing of the edition of the H?dayah?ri?? *v**?* > *tti *is something hoped. > > Here are a few Mss. I hinted : > > Alph Index KUML vol. 4, ser. no. 19347-8 = Mss no. C.1846 (complete), with > ref. to the ?DCS [of the COL ser. no.] 557?, and Ms. no. 839B; vol. 7, ser. > no. 34766-7 = Ms. no. 19827 (complete), and Ms. no. 14758 ; Descr. Cat. > Calicut, p. 335-6 no. 591-2 (incompl.) [all mss. in Mal. script on palm > leaves]; GOML Alph. Ind. vol. 2, ser. no. 23096 = Ms. R. 4179 Tr. Cat. vol. > 4/1/SkrtB, 1928, pp. 6160-2 [transcr. Dev. on paper < Mal. ms. of > Kunankulam, incompl. adh. 1-mid 4 ; cf. the complete ms. of the *s?tra* only > described ibid. R. no. 3279 pp. 4880-1, transcr. D on paper < Mal. ms > Kottakal] > Best wishes, > > Christophe > > Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 10:34, Alessandro Battistini uniroma1.it> a ?crit : > > Dear all, > > with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson > (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of > the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the > Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in > various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned > in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across > it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the > ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link > > . > > Best, > > Alessandro Battistini > Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 11:46:18 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 06:46:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti/Vedic astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7A9980EA-5CB2-4961-BDE5-351D0225D42E@gmail.com> Dear Nagaraj, I am very curious about your claim about the ?source-claims?. Is there any jyoti?a text other than Ved??gajyoti?a of Lagadha that claims itself to be vaidika? I don?t think the topic of ?source-claims? within the jyoti?a texts had been treated seriously. The Greco-Indian texts of Sphujidhavaja and M?nar?ja or even Var?hamihira all make interesting claims and referred to authors which had been speculated to be foreign, e.g., Maya > Ptolemy, Ma?ittha > Manethos, beside all the ?Yavanar?ja?-s including ?Yavane?vara" etc. Bill -- Bill M. Mak, PhD Visiting research scholar Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Associate Professor Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com > On Nov 15, 2016, at 2:55 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > Luis and Martin, > > That was just a model of solution I was trying to offer to get out of this 'problematic' (?) word 'Vedic' in the name of Vedic Astrology. My point was that some method indicating name might solve the problem of source-claims. > > Also, even if some such solution is ironed out, languages and names in them are such tricky entities that they may not come fully under the control of a group of scholars. > > Best, > > -N > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Martin Gansten > wrote: > This is getting off the topic a bit, but just to clarify: both Babylonian and early Greek-language astrology was explicitly sidereal in the sense that it defined the vernal equinoctial point as falling somewhere within the sign Aries rather than Aries commencing from it. The same seems to have been true of pre-Islamic Persian astrology. So I agree with Luis that 'sidereal' won't do as a synonym of 'Indian'. Indian astrology differs in many other technical respects from its cousin traditions further west: some aspects of the Hellenistic system never made it to India, or only did so a millennium later with the Perso-Arabic transmission, and new methods were developed in India, some on the basis of indigenous lore such as the nak?atras. > > Martin > > > > Den 2016-11-14 kl. 23:19, skrev Luis Gonzalez-Reimann: >> Nagaraj, >> >>> It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the names of the two traditions since that indicates the method difference rather than giving scope for questions such as which part of the world Mesopotamia or Greece is the origin of western Astrology or whether the so called Vedic Astrology has got to do with the Vedas (alone) or not etc. >> >> There is also sidereal astrology in the " West," so that is not really a good marker of the difference. Also, at the time of Greek influence on Indian astronomy the two zodiacs more or less coincided, so there was no difference between sidereal and tropical (this applies to both Indian/South Asian astrology and to "Mediterranean" astrology). The date of when that happened will depend of exactly where one considers the beginning of Aries (the constellation) to be. >> >> Horoscopic astrology was mainly imported into India and then adapted, as shown by the Y?vana Jataka. >> >> Luis >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Nov 15 12:55:49 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 13:55:49 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should have add that there is another good ed. of the adh. 2 p?d. 1-3 of the SKBh (gram.) based on the Madras Ms. R. no. 4179 : The U??dis?tras of Bhoja with the V?tti of Da??an?tha N?r?ya?a, ed. T. R. Chintamani, Madras University Sanskrit Series no. 7 (= The U??dis?tras in Various Recensions) part VI [A], 1934 (Reprint New Delhi: Navrang, 1993): http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/292655 http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/496423 http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/368313 See p. xii about the use of the name Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 12:43, Madhav Deshpande a ?crit : > Thanks, Christophe and Alessandro. Great help in accessing these rare books. > > Madhav Deshpande > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 6:23 AM, Christophe Vielle wrote: > Thank you much for this, dear Alessandro. > > Note that beside Bhoja's "?la?k?rika" Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a, there is another, grammatical (in s?tra-form), Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a ascribed to the same (which is not distinguished in Cahill's Bibliography). > The edition of the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a-vy?kara?a, in 8 adhy?ya-s, ascribed to Bhoja, with the (probably 11th c., contemporary) v?tti H?dayah?ri?? of N?r?ya?abha??a Da??an?tha, was left incomplete in the Trivandrum Sanskrit Series; it was planned in 5 volumes, of which the first four only were issued: > > vol. I [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313457 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407040] = TSS no. 117 (1935) contains the adh. 1, > > vol. II [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313459 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407042] = no. 127 (1937) the adh. 2, > > vol. III [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313458 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407041] = no. 140 (1938) the adh. 3-4, > > and vol. IV [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313401 or http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/406984] = no. 154 (1948) the adh. 5-6 [+ index]. > > The vol. V with the adh. 7-8 was said ?in the press? from 1948 onwards : it should have had the no. 182 in the series (the no. with the title of the vol. is still said ?not yet published? in 2005). One can fear that the manuscript of this last volume is now lost (I mean that the work possibly ready for the press was destroyed or is lost somewhere in the ORI&ML building?). > > The edition of the complete grammar by T. R. Chintamani published in the Madras University Sanskrit Series no. 11 (1937: http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/52186) has only the text of the s?tra-s, as it is the case of the 1992 ed. of the last (8th) adh. (which adds for each s?tra an useful anvaya giving the s?tr?rtha and a Gujarati commentary by the editor : http://books.google.be/books?id=uICH235KSUMC). > > Due to the importance of this post-p??inean work, as stressed on by Louis Renou (?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes, t. 3, 1957, PICI series no. 4, pp. 121-7) and Robert Birw? (?N?r?ya?a Da??an?tha?s Commentary on Rules III.2, 106-121 of Bhoja?s Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a?, JAOS 84/2, 1964, pp. 150-162), the completing of the edition of the H?dayah?ri?? v?tti is something hoped. > > Here are a few Mss. I hinted : > > Alph Index KUML vol. 4, ser. no. 19347-8 = Mss no. C.1846 (complete), with ref. to the ?DCS [of the COL ser. no.] 557?, and Ms. no. 839B; vol. 7, ser. no. 34766-7 = Ms. no. 19827 (complete), and Ms. no. 14758 ; Descr. Cat. Calicut, p. 335-6 no. 591-2 (incompl.) [all mss. in Mal. script on palm leaves]; GOML Alph. Ind. vol. 2, ser. no. 23096 = Ms. R. 4179 Tr. Cat. vol. 4/1/SkrtB, 1928, pp. 6160-2 [transcr. Dev. on paper < Mal. ms. of Kunankulam, incompl. adh. 1-mid 4 ; cf. the complete ms. of the s?tra only described ibid. R. no. 3279 pp. 4880-1, transcr. D on paper < Mal. ms Kottakal] > > Best wishes, > > Christophe > > Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 10:34, Alessandro Battistini a ?crit : > >> Dear all, >> >> with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link. >> >> Best, >> >> Alessandro Battistini >> Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Tue Nov 15 13:18:00 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 14:18:00 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <582B0B08.5050109@uni-muenchen.de> Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > When I said "Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary busy practitioners do not even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or Vaidika", I had the non-internet scenario in mind. [?] https://www.sapnaonline.com/general-search?searchkey=vedic+astrology http://mlbd.com/SearchBook.aspx?search_text=vedic+astrology&btnSearch=Go Of course these examples are taken from internet websites, but those bookshops do not only, also not primarily, cater to the wishes of a non-Indian public. This is Indian self-depiction. RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Department f?r Asienstudien Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (LMU) From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Tue Nov 15 13:39:03 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 14:39:03 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=ABra=C5=9Baivas_and_Vedas,_etc.?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <582B0FF7.20005@uni-muenchen.de> Nityanand Misra wrote: > On 14 November 2016 at 18:17, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: > > (1) To begin with: there are V?ra?aivas of various kinds, [?] > > View (a) needs evidence. Do we have any? Apart from genetic evidence, is there any other way to prove it? Before going into detail, I want to state clearly and unmistakably that I have been reporting *what informants in India have been telling me, in their own words.* I do not subscribe to any of these views because I have no proof for any of them. What I find most probable is that a collective adoption of V?ra?aivism by a group of brahmins took place, by which their group identity within the new super-community was retained. (This is found also in other religious groups, e.g., Konkani-speaking Catholics.) > View (b): what exactly is meant by a quasi-brahmin? Reportedly (remember: I am only repeating what people have told me! Fieldwork!), a person who is not a descendant of 'real' brahmins (by which is meant a genetic relationship to ancestors who were recognized as brahmins) and 'yet behaves like one' (by which is meant: social exclusiveness in matters of ritual purity, commensurality, intermarriage, or any other form of social intercourse, prompted by a sense of being 'superior' to others). (If I may illustrate this through a concrete example: I myself can be the very worst of all quasi-brahmins when anyone through his or her behaviour tries to make me believe s/he is my superior for reasons that I find dubious. :-) Some friends claim that I simply am a kind of brahmin ? but that is a matter of a different definition.) > View (c), frankly speaking, is ludicrous and borders on conspiracy theory (I hope it is not meant to be a joke). As if the Brahmins have an underground organization (like the Mossad) which /infiltrates/ other communities to distort their teachings!! No, sorry, this is not a joke at all. I am merely repeating what I have heard from more than one person over a period of several years. It has also been documented in a doctoral thesis, J.-P. Schouten's _Revolution of the Mystics_, of which an Indian reprint also exists. That such sub-communal tensions exist and are perceived in this way is a fact, whether we like it or not. I personally do not like it, but that is how it is. (My problem with that thesis is that its author apparently believes that this perception reflects historical reality. But I can confirm that the perception is real.) > Ved?dhy?pana is indeed done by Arya Samajis who are not Brahmin by birth. There is an influential Arya Samaj Pandit [?] I wonder: How many members does the Arya Samaj actually have? (By which I mean: the number of official members minus those who stopped having contact with the Samaj after their intercaste wedding.) What does "influential" mean? To what extent is the Arya Samaj (that organization whose founder claimed that electricity and railroads are found in the Vedas, and which is one of the nativist movements that led to the rise of Hindutva [see H.-J. Klimkeit, _Der politische Hinduismus_. Wiesbaden, 1981, chapter IV]) representative of Indian religiosity and social consciousness? Mind you, these are mere rhetorical questions (so please do not respond). I am merely trying to point out that all these vague references, repeated in this thread, to the Arya Samaj are leading us away from the main issue, which is the question why anything that is manifestly non-Vedic should be labelled 'Vedic'. Why should the Arya Samaj care about the Vedas in the first place? (My answer: because of the prestige lent to the Vedas by the prestigeous brahmin community!) ? This is the last thing I will say about the Arya Samaj in this thread. > > Gujarat is predominantly vegetarian. Udupi Brahmin tag is not used, not required there. > > Perhaps because Udupi is simply too far away from Gujarat? ;-) > > Still, Udupi/Udipi restaurants are common in Ahmedabad, where I lived for four years (2000 to 2004). There is a popular one at Paldi Char Rasta which was frequented by many students and tourists back then. Excellent. Udupi food is good. So we may assume that 'Udupi' (or 'Udupi Brahmin') is used in their advertising, on sign boards etc.? Otherwise, how does one know? RZ From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Tue Nov 15 16:07:43 2016 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 17:07:43 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=ABra=C5=9Baivas_and_Vedas,_etc.?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <582B32CF.3060908@uni-muenchen.de> Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > "the association of vaidikatva with br?hma?atva and social prestige seems beyond debate." > > is no argument. It is just a restatement of a claim to which sufficient counter evidences have been provided. I am very sorry, but: where is that counter-evidence? To explain this question: What I have seen is that there are non-brahmin groups that nowadays study and recide the Vedas (which is nothing new). The historical question (why should they care at all? what is the value of vaidikatva for them?) has not been answered (except in my own recent comment on the Arya Samaj). On the contrary, I have given explanations for 'Vedic astrology' and 'Vedic bhakti', and nobody has provided real, relevant counter-evidence. I will explain: Any such counter-evidence needs to prove (1) that the brahmin community holds no position of special intellectual and cultural prestige in Indian society (this is impossible), and (2) that persons from the br?hma?a var?a have not been the traditional custodians of the Vedic heritage (I think that this is impossible too). These are the two points of my statement which (to use terminology from Karl Popper's theory of science) need to be falsified if my statement is to be disproven. Any 'counter-evidence' that fails to address these two points is simply irrelevant, ??????. Until these points are addressed, I will assume that my statement holds good, and I would like to refrain from further comments. > Study of Indian society has gone more intricate and more nuanced than this old obsolete understanding of the early modern studies. Not all the conclusions of "early modern studies" are obsolete. Besides, we are dealing with something (viz., social prestige) which any casual observer of Indian society can confirm. There is a Jaina sub-community in southern India called "Jaina brahmins". The founder of ISKCON insisted that his American followers should be allowed into temples in India because according to his definition they were brahmins. The Vi?vakarma community (artisans) claims brahmin status for itself. The list goes on and on. This cannot be denied. This is not obsolete. And 'Vedicness' has everything to do with this. Therefore, we read about 'Vedic astrology', 'Vedic bhakti', etc. etc. RZ From emstern at verizon.net Tue Nov 15 16:51:22 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 11:51:22 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Who in Bonn in 1914 would have wanted to see this manuscript? Message-ID: Dear list members: I inquired about a manuscript in the reading room of Sarasvat? Bhavan in Varanasi early in my work on ny?yaka?ik?. This manuscript appeared in the earliest published catalogue (ca. 1888). The catalogue description of the manuscript: (page 358)}: (103) ny?yaka?ik?| pa. 3-274 pa?. 10 ?lo. 5000 lik?. ?| pr?. ?u. ga. sa?p?r?akalp? | I interpret this to mean by comparison with other entries to mean: (103) ny?yaka?ik?~| pattr??i 3-274 pa?ktaya? 10 ?lok?? 5000 lipik?la? ?~| pr?c?nam ?uddham ga. samp?r?akalp?~| In English: folia 3-274 10 lines extent 5000 ?lok?? time of copying ?~| early correct ga. (interpretation unknown) nearly complete.}\\ The manuscript reading room librarian or supervisor found a copy of this first catalogue near his desk, and reported to me that it contained a handwritten notation showing that the library sent the manuscript to Bonn in 1914, and that a request for return of the manuscrIpt, last made around 1930, yielded no reply. Several copies of this manuscript found in libraries in India and Nepal were made after the catalogue appeared. The editio princeps published in the Pandit refers to this now lost manuscript as 1 pu. I have used two of the copies in my edition. I consider it likely that the manuscript traveled on a ship that sank under attack in the Mediterranean Sea early in World War I. The question I put forward to fellow list members is this. Who in Bonn in 1914 would have had interest in this manuscript? Hermann Jacobi traveled in India in 1913 and 1914. I doubt, however, that he would have had a particular interest in this manuscript. It is possible that a junior colleague or a student at Bonn had some interest it, but I do not know who were colleagues or students at Bonn at that time. Wilhelm Rau suggested during my visit to Marburg July through November 1982 that I write to Walter Ruben. Ruben was a student at Bonn in the 1920s. I did not follow through on this suggestion, in part for lack of a specific address. Many years later, I learned that Ruben died in November 1982. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 17:09:28 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 22:39:28 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti/Vedic astrology In-Reply-To: <7A9980EA-5CB2-4961-BDE5-351D0225D42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Bill, My statement was : That was just a model of solution I was trying to offer to get out of this 'problematic' (?) word 'Vedic' in the name of Vedic Astrology. My point was that some method indicating name might solve the problem of source-claims. Let me elaborate the word 'source-claims': The whole discussion started with objections to a certain strand of astrology being called 'Vedic'. The objection is rooted in the objections to the assumed or actual *claim* by the users of the word 'Vedic' that the *source *of present horoscopic astrology that is being called 'Vedic Astrology' is Vedas or some other Vedic text. This is an example of a source-claim. The objection is to this source-claim. What I did is, I neither agreed nor disagreed with this source-claim. My above statement was a clarification that I was only suggesting that method indicate name can avoid the controversy about such source-claims. That is my clarification about my statement. But please go ahead discussing your objections to source-claims after noting that none of those claims are mine. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > Dear Nagaraj, > > I am very curious about your claim about the ?source-claims?. Is there any > jyoti?a text other than *Ved??gajyoti?a* of Lagadha that claims itself to > be vaidika? > > I don?t think the topic of ?source-claims? within the jyoti?a texts had > been treated seriously. The Greco-Indian texts of Sphujidhavaja and > M?nar?ja or even Var?hamihira all make interesting claims and referred to > authors which had been speculated to be foreign, e.g., Maya > Ptolemy, > Ma?ittha > Manethos, beside all the ?Yavanar?ja?-s including ?Yavane?vara" > etc. > > Bill > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > On Nov 15, 2016, at 2:55 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > > Luis and Martin, > > That was just a model of solution I was trying to offer to get out of this > 'problematic' (?) word 'Vedic' in the name of Vedic Astrology. My point was > that some method indicating name might solve the problem of source-claims. > > Also, even if some such solution is ironed out, languages and names in > them are such tricky entities that they may not come fully under the > control of a group of scholars. > > Best, > > -N > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Martin Gansten > wrote: > >> This is getting off the topic a bit, but just to clarify: both Babylonian >> and early Greek-language astrology was explicitly sidereal in the sense >> that it defined the vernal equinoctial point as falling somewhere within >> the sign Aries rather than Aries commencing from it. The same seems to have >> been true of pre-Islamic Persian astrology. So I agree with Luis that >> 'sidereal' won't do as a synonym of 'Indian'. Indian astrology differs in >> many other technical respects from its cousin traditions further west: some >> aspects of the Hellenistic system never made it to India, or only did so a >> millennium later with the Perso-Arabic transmission, and new methods were >> developed in India, some on the basis of indigenous lore such as the >> nak?atras. >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> Den 2016-11-14 kl. 23:19, skrev Luis Gonzalez-Reimann: >> >> Nagaraj, >> >> It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the names >> of the two traditions since that indicates the method difference rather >> than giving scope for questions such as which part of the world Mesopotamia >> or Greece is the origin of western Astrology or whether the so called Vedic >> Astrology has got to do with the Vedas (alone) or not etc. >> >> >> There is also sidereal astrology in the " West," so that is not really a >> good marker of the difference. Also, at the time of Greek influence on >> Indian astronomy the two zodiacs more or less coincided, so there was no >> difference between sidereal and tropical (this applies to both Indian/South >> Asian astrology and to "Mediterranean" astrology). The date of when that >> happened will depend of exactly where one considers the beginning of Aries >> (the constellation) to be. >> >> Horoscopic astrology was mainly imported into India and then adapted, as >> shown by the *Y?vana Jataka*. >> >> Luis >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 17:16:32 2016 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 10:16:32 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Patrick, One group that always emphasizes "Vedic" in their representations of Indian traditions are the followers of Maharishi (Transcendental Meditation, Maharishi Ayurved, etc.), and I believe that this group may have been very influential in the use of the term among practitioners in the West. See http://www.maharishijyotishprogram.eu/ for their astrology programme. I am not sure how far back in time their astrology programme goes. I don't know of anyone having specifically analysed their use of "Vedic". Papers on Maharishi Ayurved can be found in *Modern and Global Ayurveda* (SUNY Press), edited by Fred Smith and myself. Best wishes, Dagmar On 14 November 2016 at 21:06, patrick mccartney wrote: > parts 1 and 2 of the english version are available below > > > https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra1 > > https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra2 > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> >> For a detailed history of Indian Astronomy/Astrology from the Vedic >> period to the modern period see: >> Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra by S. B. Dikshit. >> >> There is an english translation of this by R.V. Vaidya >> published by the India Meteorological Department. >> >> Harry Spier >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Bill Mak wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe >>> this discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the >>> lunar astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic >>> astrology seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of >>> Vedic astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists >>> and Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected >>> in the *B?hatsa?hit?*. >>> >>> As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers >>> actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common >>> with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was >>> completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets >>> and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic >>> corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything >>> under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure >>> misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from >>> Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Bill Mak >>> >>> -- >>> Bill M. Mak, PhD >>> >>> Visiting research scholar >>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>> New York University >>> 15 East 84th Street >>> New York, NY 10028 >>> US >>> >>> Associate Professor >>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>> ??????????? >>> >>> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>> http://www.billmak.com >>> >>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos >>> wrote: >>> >>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>> >>> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is >>> exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the >>> astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, >>> however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive >>> system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that >>> 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge >>> developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. >>> >>> >>> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the >>> field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western >>> hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? >>> etc. etc.) >>> >>> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are >>> also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a >>> regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long >>> and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, >>> and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. >>> >>> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of >>> pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person >>> to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The >>> next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should >>> pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this >>> mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? >>> to Vi??u. >>> >>> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how >>> this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings >>> (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if >>> the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of >>> worship needed to be chosen accordingly. >>> >>> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' >>> at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window >>> dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >>> >>> RZ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Tue Nov 15 17:58:20 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 18:58:20 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Who in Bonn in 1914 would have wanted to see this manuscript? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7E3BD9FB-ECCA-4CB0-9BB6-5771CAE4AF0A@uclouvain.be> Maybe Jacobi ordered the manuscript for his former student Stcherbatsky who, later, published on the Ny?yaka?ik? in the Festschrift Jacobi (Bonn, 1926). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Shcherbatskoy and Ref. SARDS: Stcherbatsky, Th.: "?ber die Ny?yaka?ik? des V?caspatimi?ra und die indische Lehre vom kategorischen Imperativ", in: Beitr?ge zur Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte Indiens. Festgabe Hermann Jacobi zum 75. Geburtstag (11.2.1925), dargebracht von Freunden, Kollegen und Sch?lern, ed. by Willibald Kirfel. Bonn, 1926, S. 369-380. Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 17:51, Elliot Stern a ?crit : > Dear list members: > > I inquired about a manuscript in the reading room of Sarasvat? Bhavan in Varanasi early in my work on ny?yaka?ik?. This manuscript appeared in the earliest published catalogue (ca. 1888). The catalogue description of the manuscript: (page 358)}: > > (103) ny?yaka?ik?| pa. 3-274 pa?. 10 ?lo. 5000 lik?. ?| pr?. ?u. ga. sa?p?r?akalp? | > > I interpret this to mean by comparison with other entries to mean: (103) ny?yaka?ik?~| pattr??i 3-274 pa?ktaya? 10 ?lok?? 5000 lipik?la? ?~| pr?c?nam ?uddham ga. samp?r?akalp?~| In English: folia 3-274 10 lines extent 5000 ?lok?? time of copying ?~| early correct ga. (interpretation unknown) nearly complete.}\\ > > The manuscript reading room librarian or supervisor found a copy of this first catalogue near his desk, and reported to me that it contained a handwritten notation showing that the library sent the manuscript to Bonn in 1914, and that a request for return of the manuscrIpt, last made around 1930, yielded no reply. > > Several copies of this manuscript found in libraries in India and Nepal were made after the catalogue appeared. The editio princeps published in the Pandit refers to this now lost manuscript as 1 pu. I have used two of the copies in my edition. I consider it likely that the manuscript traveled on a ship that sank under attack in the Mediterranean Sea early in World War I. > > The question I put forward to fellow list members is this. Who in Bonn in 1914 would have had interest in this manuscript? Hermann Jacobi traveled in India in 1913 and 1914. I doubt, however, that he would have had a particular interest in this manuscript. It is possible that a junior colleague or a student at Bonn had some interest it, but I do not know who were colleagues or students at Bonn at that time. > > Wilhelm Rau suggested during my visit to Marburg July through November 1982 that I write to Walter Ruben. Ruben was a student at Bonn in the 1920s. I did not follow through on this suggestion, in part for lack of a specific address. Many years later, I learned that Ruben died in November 1982. > > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 18:47:25 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 00:17:25 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=ABra=C5=9Baivas_and_Vedas,_etc.?= In-Reply-To: <582B32CF.3060908@uni-muenchen.de> Message-ID: > Any such counter-evidence needs to prove (1) that the brahmin community holds no position of special intellectual and cultural prestige in Indian society (this is impossible), and (2) that persons from the br?hma?a var?a have not been the traditional custodians of the Vedic heritage (I think that this is impossible too). > (2) that persons from the br?hma?a var?a have not been the traditional custodians of the Vedic heritage (I think that this is impossible too). You are absolutely right about #2. If you remember, I said *traditionally* that is how it was. I also said that all castes were traditionally custodians of their respective caste occupations. If #1 does not mean that the brahmin community is the only one holding a special position of prestige and it dies not mean that to get a prestige, to be associated with brahminness is the only way and that is why people resort to Vedic etc or that is the only reason why people resort to Vedic etc., then #1 should have no objections. If these are the (only) two antarvaakyas ( with #1 having only the meanings as specified above) implied in your mahaavaakya, I am sorry to have misunderstood your vaakya. Much before these recent posts in this thread, in some other context, while discussing the MN Srinivas and his Sanskritization, one of the western - born members of the list was asking me off the list ( to make the point that the brahmin community is not the only one holding a special position of prestige and imitated by other castes for that reason), "why only a few specific castes claimed the name Brahmana for their castes , why others including the 'upper' castes such as Reddies and Kammas in the Telugu region or many other castes considered to be with lower prestige did not ask for such names or features? " There are claims for Kshatriyahood and Vaishyahood across the castes. Many castes and tribes got Kshatriyaized too. In fact, I mentioned this in one of my recent posts on military ranks too. The name ending Setti which is typical of 'Vaishyas' is used by many other castes. Many castes without such claims for the names of any of the traivarNika varNas hold a high prestige. Many castes considered not to hold such high prestige do not make claims for the names of any of the traivarNika varNas. In any case, I am sorry that I did not realize that you were just saying that Brahmins traditionally deciding what is Veda or Vedic was not unnatural or objectionable. (How can not any fieldwork based culture- researcher know that all traditional lore , all traditional oral texts are preserved in all the traditional societies at least in India, if not all over the world, by a certain specific community that takes up or is expected to preserve those traditional oral texts ?) On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > > "the association of vaidikatva with br?hma?atva and social prestige > seems beyond debate." > > > > is no argument. It is just a restatement of a claim to which sufficient > counter evidences have been provided. > > I am very sorry, but: where is that counter-evidence? To explain this > question: > > What I have seen is that there are non-brahmin groups that nowadays study > and recide the Vedas (which is nothing new). The historical question (why > should they care at all? what is the value of vaidikatva for them?) has not > been answered (except in my own recent comment on the Arya Samaj). > > On the contrary, I have given explanations for 'Vedic astrology' and > 'Vedic bhakti', and nobody has provided real, relevant counter-evidence. I > will explain: > > Any such counter-evidence needs to prove (1) that the brahmin community > holds no position of special intellectual and cultural prestige in Indian > society (this is impossible), and (2) that persons from the br?hma?a var?a > have not been the traditional custodians of the Vedic heritage (I think > that this is impossible too). These are the two points of my statement > which (to use terminology from Karl Popper's theory of science) need to be > falsified if my statement is to be disproven. > > Any 'counter-evidence' that fails to address these two points is simply > irrelevant, ??????. > > Until these points are addressed, I will assume that my statement holds > good, and I would like to refrain from further comments. > > > Study of Indian society has gone more intricate and more nuanced than > this old obsolete understanding of the early modern studies. > > Not all the conclusions of "early modern studies" are obsolete. > > Besides, we are dealing with something (viz., social prestige) which any > casual observer of Indian society can confirm. There is a Jaina > sub-community in southern India called "Jaina brahmins". The founder of > ISKCON insisted that his American followers should be allowed into temples > in India because according to his definition they were brahmins. The > Vi?vakarma community (artisans) claims brahmin status for itself. The list > goes on and on. This cannot be denied. This is not obsolete. And > 'Vedicness' has everything to do with this. > > Therefore, we read about 'Vedic astrology', 'Vedic bhakti', etc. etc. > > RZ > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Tue Nov 15 18:54:39 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 13:54:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Who in Bonn in 1914 would have wanted to see this manuscript? In-Reply-To: <7E3BD9FB-ECCA-4CB0-9BB6-5771CAE4AF0A@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <093F84D8-E92E-4592-AE1D-1663C9210582@verizon.net> I considered the possibility of a request for Th. Stcherbatsky some months ago. The account of Stcherbatsky?s life and career at http://www.orientalstudies.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_personalities&Itemid=74&person=242 mentions that he mostly read m?m??s? treatises in Varanasi during a trip to India in 1910-1911. This report, together with the report in the same article that he began teaching at the Department of Sanskrit in St. Petersburg University in 1900, seemed to me to make it unlikely that he would have asked his former teacher in Bonn to ask for the manuscript on his behalf. He would have in my opinion asked for it on his own. Stcherbatsky mentions having looked at manuscripts in the then library of the Queen?s College while in Varanasi, but he does not mention having looked at the ny?yaka?ik? manuscript (A short report on the trip to India, in Harish Chandra-Gupta, translator, Further Papers of Stcherbatsky, Calcutta, 1971, pages 3-8). I recall having read "?ber die Ny?yaka?ik? des V?caspatimi?ra und die indische Lehre vom kategorischen Imperativ", in: Beitr?ge zur Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte Indiens. Festgabe Hermann Jacobi zum 75. Geburtstag (11.2.1925), dargebracht von Freunden, Kollegen und Sch?lern, ed. by Willibald Kirfel. Bonn, 1926, S. 369-380. many years ago. I cannot remember if I have a xerox copy. If a list member can provide a pdf, I will be most grateful. I looked at Stcherbatsky?s Buddhist Logic, but failed to find any reference to his interest in a manuscript of ny?yaka?ik?. He used the printed edition that appeared before his 1910-1911 trip to India. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > On 15 Nov 2016, at 12:58, Christophe Vielle wrote: > > Maybe Jacobi ordered the manuscript for his former student Stcherbatsky who, later, published on the Ny?yaka?ik? in the Festschrift Jacobi (Bonn, 1926). > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Shcherbatskoy > and Ref. SARDS: > Stcherbatsky, Th.: "?ber die Ny?yaka?ik? des V?caspatimi?ra und die indische Lehre vom kategorischen Imperativ", in: Beitr?ge zur Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte Indiens. Festgabe Hermann Jacobi zum 75. Geburtstag (11.2.1925), dargebracht von Freunden, Kollegen und Sch?lern, ed. by Willibald Kirfel. Bonn, 1926, S. 369-380. > > > Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 17:51, Elliot Stern > a ?crit : > >> Dear list members: >> >> I inquired about a manuscript in the reading room of Sarasvat? Bhavan in Varanasi early in my work on ny?yaka?ik?. This manuscript appeared in the earliest published catalogue (ca. 1888). The catalogue description of the manuscript: (page 358)}: >> >> (103) ny?yaka?ik?| pa. 3-274 pa?. 10 ?lo. 5000 lik?. ?| pr?. ?u. ga. sa?p?r?akalp? | >> >> I interpret this to mean by comparison with other entries to mean: (103) ny?yaka?ik?~| pattr??i 3-274 pa?ktaya? 10 ?lok?? 5000 lipik?la? ?~| pr?c?nam ?uddham ga. samp?r?akalp?~| In English: folia 3-274 10 lines extent 5000 ?lok?? time of copying ?~| early correct ga. (interpretation unknown) nearly complete.}\\ >> >> The manuscript reading room librarian or supervisor found a copy of this first catalogue near his desk, and reported to me that it contained a handwritten notation showing that the library sent the manuscript to Bonn in 1914, and that a request for return of the manuscrIpt, last made around 1930, yielded no reply. >> >> Several copies of this manuscript found in libraries in India and Nepal were made after the catalogue appeared. The editio princeps published in the Pandit refers to this now lost manuscript as 1 pu. I have used two of the copies in my edition. I consider it likely that the manuscript traveled on a ship that sank under attack in the Mediterranean Sea early in World War I. >> >> The question I put forward to fellow list members is this. Who in Bonn in 1914 would have had interest in this manuscript? Hermann Jacobi traveled in India in 1913 and 1914. I doubt, however, that he would have had a particular interest in this manuscript. It is possible that a junior colleague or a student at Bonn had some interest it, but I do not know who were colleagues or students at Bonn at that time. >> >> Wilhelm Rau suggested during my visit to Marburg July through November 1982 that I write to Walter Ruben. Ruben was a student at Bonn in the 1920s. I did not follow through on this suggestion, in part for lack of a specific address. Many years later, I learned that Ruben died in November 1982. >> >> >> Elliot M. Stern >> 552 South 48th Street >> Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >> United States of America >> telephone: 215-747-6204 >> mobile: 267-240-8418 >> emstern at verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Tue Nov 15 19:48:12 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 11:48:12 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] bhakti/Vedic astrology (correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0922ce90-ad97-5ce8-09b8-5bf83ecd1c26@berkeley.edu> Correction: The end of the last line should say /Yavana J?taka/, not /Y?vana Jataka/. _____ Nagaraj, > It may also be a good idea to use 'Tropical' , 'Sidereal' in the names > of the two traditions since that indicates the method difference > rather than giving scope for questions such as which part of the world > Mesopotamia or Greece is the origin of western Astrology or whether > the so called Vedic Astrology has got to do with the Vedas (alone) or > not etc. There is also sidereal astrology in the " West," so that is not really a good marker of the difference. Also, at the time of Greek influence on Indian astronomy the two zodiacs more or less coincided, so there was no difference between sidereal and tropical (this applies to both Indian/South Asian astrology and to "Mediterranean" astrology). The date of when that happened will depend of exactly where one considers the beginning of Aries (the constellation) to be. Horoscopic astrology was mainly imported into India and then adapted, as shown by the /Y?vana Jataka/. Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Tue Nov 15 20:06:14 2016 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (Jean-Michel Delire) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 21:06:14 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Les_math=C3=A9matiques_de_l'autel_v=C3=A9dique?= Message-ID: <4638582b6ab6b4bf1@wm-srv.ulb.ac.be> Dear list, Your discussion reminds me the so-called Vedic mathematics, which are not Vedic at all. That is the reason why I have myself been very cautious not to use Vedic directly associated with mathematics in the title of my (just published) book : Les math?matiques de l'autel v?dique, or Mathematics of the Vedic Altar (the book is mainly in French). The altar is definitely vedic, and also the mathematics used to build it and explained in the book, but they are very different of what is nowadays - and inaccurately - called Vedic mathematics. If you want more information, see http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html Best regards, Jean Michel Delire >Hi Patrick, > >One group that always emphasizes "Vedic" in their representations of Indian >traditions are the followers of Maharishi (Transcendental Meditation, >Maharishi Ayurved, etc.), and I believe that this group may have been very >influential in the use of the term among practitioners in the West. See >http://www.maharishijyotishprogram.eu/ for their astrology programme. >I am not sure how far back in time their astrology programme goes. I don't >know of anyone having specifically analysed their use of "Vedic". Papers on >Maharishi Ayurved can be found in *Modern and Global Ayurveda* (SUNY >Press), edited by Fred Smith and myself. >Best wishes, >Dagmar > >On 14 November 2016 at 21:06, patrick mccartney >wrote: > >> parts 1 and 2 of the english version are available below >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra1 >> >> https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra2 >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Harry Spier >> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> For a detailed history of Indian Astronomy/Astrology from the Vedic >>> period to the modern period see: >>> Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra by S. B. Dikshit. >>> >>> There is an english translation of this by R.V. Vaidya >>> published by the India Meteorological Department. >>> >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Bill Mak wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe >>>> this discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the >>>> lunar astrology ?hinted at? in the *Ved??gajyoti?a, *indeed Vedic >>>> astrology seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of >>>> Vedic astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists >>>> and Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected >>>> in the *B?hatsa?hit?*. >>>> >>>> As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers >>>> actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common >>>> with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was >>>> completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets >>>> and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic >>>> corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything >>>> under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure >>>> misnomer. No scholars on *jyoti?a* would commit such travesty, from >>>> Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Bill Mak >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bill M. Mak, PhD >>>> >>>> Visiting research scholar >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>>> New York University >>>> 15 East 84th Street >>>> New York, NY 10028 >>>> US >>>> >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>>> ??????????? >>>> >>>> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>>> http://www.billmak.com >>>> >>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> patrick mccartney wrote: >>>> >>>> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is >>>> exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the >>>> astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, >>>> however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive >>>> system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that >>>> 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge >>>> developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. >>>> >>>> >>>> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the >>>> field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western >>>> hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? >>>> etc. etc.) >>>> >>>> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are >>>> also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a >>>> regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long >>>> and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, >>>> and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. >>>> >>>> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of >>>> pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person >>>> to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The >>>> next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should >>>> pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this >>>> mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? >>>> to Vi??u. >>>> >>>> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how >>>> this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings >>>> (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if >>>> the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of >>>> worship needed to be chosen accordingly. >>>> >>>> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' >>>> at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window >>>> dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >>>> >>>> RZ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >>> unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 20:09:39 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 15:09:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <395895CA-2448-40D1-8BE3-25C00C50F033@gmail.com> Dear Patrick, Dagmar, Since someone mentioned the important work by Dikshit, I should point out that he did refer to the concept of Vedic Astrology. But as I pointed out in an earlier mail, this Vedic Astrology is very different from what is generally called Vedic Astrology these days. In the 1968 English translation, the passage I had in mind (Vol.1, p.63) refers to ?post-Vedic works on astrology? in contrast to Vedic astrology based on nak?atras as in the Taittir?ya sa?hit?, etc. Since Dikshit?s work first came out in Marathi 1896, the idea of Vedic astrology certainly cannot be said to be new. For those who are not familiar with the historiography of jyoti?a studies, it is important to bear in mind that some of Dikshit?s ways of classifying what he considered as Vedic astrology and astronomy have been refuted by both Indian and non-Indian scholars since then. For example, under the heading ?ved??ga period? which Dikshit dated to 1400 BC, he would put under the heading of ?Yajurveda jyoti?a? topics such as horoscopic and zodiac concepts such as ?lagna" and ?me?a," although these concepts are never found in the the texts he referred to. In fact, most historians today believe the Zodiac with twelve ?signs," originated in Babylonia, cannot be dated earlier 5th century BCE with both textual and archeological evidences. I am aware that the discussants on this thread are not so much interested in the actual content of Vedic astrology or astronomy, but I still think the content should be more carefully scrutinized before one decides whether ?Vedic" is the correct label and why it was applied. The Vedic Planetarium that ISKON is currently constructing is an interesting case. As it is explained in their website under ?Vedic Science? (https://tovp.org/vedic-science/ ), one may find some bewildering claims under the headings ?vedic cosmology? and ?vedic planetarium? that no serious scholar can subscribe to. For example, The Temple of the Vedic Planetarium is named as such because within its main dome it will house a 3-dimensional, moving model of the universe according to the Vedic scriptures. This explanation describes the planetary systems and all the universal contents to be in the shape of an incredible chandelier. It seems to me a futile to debunk every single one of their claims and their indiscriminate use of the Vedic as a label for everything believed to be of scriptural authority. -- Bill M. Mak Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 Japan ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com > On Nov 15, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Dagmar Wujastyk wrote: > > Hi Patrick, > > One group that always emphasizes "Vedic" in their representations of Indian traditions are the followers of Maharishi (Transcendental Meditation, Maharishi Ayurved, etc.), and I believe that this group may have been very influential in the use of the term among practitioners in the West. See http://www.maharishijyotishprogram.eu/ for their astrology programme. > I am not sure how far back in time their astrology programme goes. I don't know of anyone having specifically analysed their use of "Vedic". Papers on Maharishi Ayurved can be found in Modern and Global Ayurveda (SUNY Press), edited by Fred Smith and myself. > Best wishes, > Dagmar > > On 14 November 2016 at 21:06, patrick mccartney > wrote: > parts 1 and 2 of the english version are available below > > > https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra1 > > https://archive.org/details/BharatiyaJyotishSastra2 > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > Linkedin > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium ? > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > A Day in our Ashram > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala? > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > Dear list members, > > For a detailed history of Indian Astronomy/Astrology from the Vedic period to the modern period see: > Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra by S. B. Dikshit. > > There is an english translation of this by R.V. Vaidya > published by the India Meteorological Department. > > Harry Spier > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Bill Mak > wrote: > Dear all, > > Without examining the actual content of ?Vedic astrology", I believe this discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the lunar astrology ?hinted at? in the Ved??gajyoti?a, indeed Vedic astrology seems the correct term. >From the extant materials, this form of Vedic astrology based on 27/28 nak?atra-s was practiced by the Buddhists and Jains. By the time of Var?hamihira, only remnants survived as collected in the B?hatsa?hit?. > > As far as I can tell, what is referred to ?Vedic astrology? refers actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common with the older ?Vedic astrology?, the way it was conceptualized was completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything under the Indian civilization, ?Vedic astrology? as such is a pure misnomer. No scholars on jyoti?a would commit such travesty, from Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree. > > Best, > > Bill Mak > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > >> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos > wrote: >> >> patrick mccartney wrote: >> >>> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation, however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation. >> >> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bh?rat?ya knowledge systems? etc. etc.) >> >> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-?-vis other systems of astrology: there are also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors, and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology. >> >> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of pr?ya?citta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this mantra to Munisuvratasv?mi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a p?j? to Vi??u. >> >> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Vi??u) produced the same effect, but only if the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of worship needed to be chosen accordingly. >> >> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic' at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window dressing by certain brahmin astrologers. >> >> RZ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Tue Nov 15 20:36:49 2016 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 21:36:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <395895CA-2448-40D1-8BE3-25C00C50F033@gmail.com> Message-ID: <794b98ba-8836-cf4b-d7fa-3ae10caf95ca@pbhome.se> Just to clarify (since I was the one to mention the recent origins of the term as used today): what is new, and to the best of my knowledge began in North America, is the use of 'Vedic astrology' to describe the Indian version of horoscopic astrology, or hor???stra. I may be wrong, of course, but I have never seen any publication by an Indian practitioner prior to the 1990s referring to his (or, occasionally, her) art using that phrase, whereas today it is rampant. Martin Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:09, skrev Bill Mak: > Since Dikshit?s work first came out in Marathi 1896, the idea of Vedic > astrology certainly cannot be said to be new. From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 20:45:06 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <794b98ba-8836-cf4b-d7fa-3ae10caf95ca@pbhome.se> Message-ID: <30A6A4F1-5339-44E1-A60C-50E1A1E02FE0@gmail.com> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. Bill > On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Martin Gansten wrote: > > Just to clarify (since I was the one to mention the recent origins of the term as used today): what is new, and to the best of my knowledge began in North America, is the use of 'Vedic astrology' to describe the Indian version of horoscopic astrology, or hor???stra. I may be wrong, of course, but I have never seen any publication by an Indian practitioner prior to the 1990s referring to his (or, occasionally, her) art using that phrase, whereas today it is rampant. > > Martin > > > Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:09, skrev Bill Mak: >> Since Dikshit?s work first came out in Marathi 1896, the idea of Vedic astrology certainly cannot be said to be new. > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From rpg at berkeley.edu Tue Nov 15 20:50:49 2016 From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 12:50:49 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= Message-ID: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Dear Colleagues, On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue Nov 15 20:56:01 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 20:56:01 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047BDB9CC@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear Bob, Having been there when this worthwhile project was born, way back when, may I offer my felicitations to you, Sally, and all your collaborators on its achievement. A wonderful gift to the field and beyond. best ever, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Nov 15 20:58:15 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 20:58:15 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Congratulations, Bob and Sally. Patrick On Nov 15, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Robert Goldman > wrote: Dear Colleagues, On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:06:35 2016 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 16:06:35 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I too congratulate Bob & Sally and all of their colleagues. A job well-done! George Thompson On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Olivelle, J P wrote: > Congratulations, Bob and Sally. > > Patrick > > > > On Nov 15, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the > decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki > R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the > publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume > VII: Uttarak???a* > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. > Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South > and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ssandahl at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 15 21:32:16 2016 From: ssandahl at sympatico.ca (stella sandahl) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 16:32:16 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <7D0C19EC-0C3D-418E-B14C-D849C06DAD50@sympatico.ca> Heartfelt congratulations! Quite an achievement! Bravo, Bob and Sally! Rest on your laurels! Stella Professor Stella Sandahl (emerita) Department of East Asian Studies 130 St. George St. room 14087 Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 ssandahl at sympatico.ca stella.sandahl at utoronto.ca Tel. (416) 530-7755 Fax. (416) 978-5711 andha? tama? pravi?anti ye ?vidy?m up?sate tato bh?ya iva te tamo ya u vidy?y?? rat?? || B?had?ra?yaka Upanisad IV.4.10 ?Those who worship ignorance enter into blind darkness. Those who are devoted to knowledge enter, as it were, into a greater darkness.? On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Tue Nov 15 21:38:19 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 16:38:19 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <0D7826E7-4014-4F87-BD1D-847829C1CB4B@ivs.edu> Congratulations on this significant scholarly achievement. Best, Howard > On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at gwu.edu Tue Nov 15 21:46:47 2016 From: beitel at gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 16:46:47 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <0D7826E7-4014-4F87-BD1D-847829C1CB4B@ivs.edu> Message-ID: Wonderful news!! Congratulations to Bob and Sally, Alf On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Howard Resnick
wrote: > Congratulations on this significant scholarly achievement. > Best, > Howard > > On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the > decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki > R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the > publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume > VII: Uttarak???a* > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. > Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South > and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Alf Hiltebeitel Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences Department of Religion George Washington University 2106 G Street, NW Washington DC, 20052 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Tue Nov 15 22:07:22 2016 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 22:07:22 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Dear Bob and Sally, Congratulations! After such a long haul you have finally made it. Cheers, Greg Bailey From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Robert Goldman > Date: Wednesday, 16 November 2016 6:50 AM To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Publication: The Uttarak???a of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a Dear Colleagues, On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,Volume VII: Uttarak???a Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Tue Nov 15 22:24:48 2016 From: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca (Brendan Gillon) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 17:24:48 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Congratulations to you, Sally and collaborators. It must have been a marvelous moment of satisfaction when that last volume went to press. Best wishes, Brendan Gillon On 2016-11-15 03:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the > decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition > of the /V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a/, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are > happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of > the work. > > > > > > > > > /The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,/ /Volume > VII: Uttarak???a/ > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & > Sally J. Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South > and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca Department of Linguistics McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 H3A 1A7 CANADA webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dxs163 at case.edu Tue Nov 15 22:30:55 2016 From: dxs163 at case.edu (Deepak Sarma) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 16:30:55 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2A1099DC-E1FD-42AB-95AE-B6246C37229D@case.edu> Congratulations Bob and Sally! Wonderful! Wonderful! Deepak Dr. Deepak Sarma Professor of Religious Studies Professor of Bioethics (secondary appointment) School of Medicine, Case Western Reserve University Curatorial Consultant, Department of Asian Art Cleveland Museum of Art Mailing Address: Department of Religious Studies Tomlinson Hall 2121 MLK Jr. Drive Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, OH 44106-7112 office: 216-368-4790 deepak.sarma at case.edu deepaksarma.com > On Nov 15, 2016, at 4:24 PM, Brendan Gillon wrote: > > Congratulations to you, Sally and collaborators. It must have been a marvelous moment of satisfaction when that last volume went to press. > > Best wishes, > > Brendan Gillon > > On 2016-11-15 03:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >> >> >> >> >> >> The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a >> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman >> >> Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 >> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >> >> >> >> Dr. R. P. Goldman >> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies >> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >> The University of California at Berkeley >> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >> Tel: 510-642-4089 >> Fax: 510-642-2409 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -- > > Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca > Department of Linguistics > McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868 > 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield > Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088 > H3A 1A7 CANADA > > webpage: http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/group3/bgillo/web/ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 00:10:07 2016 From: ashok.aklujkar at gmail.com (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 16:10:07 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <251BE2CE-F8BA-4A56-A61F-10D4CBA6F3BF@gmail.com> Dear Sally and Bob, We are delighted to receive this news. Great work carried to the end with exemplary determination and discipline. Best wishes. Ashok and Vidyut Aklujkar > On Nov 15, 2016, at 12:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Wed Nov 16 00:57:09 2016 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 00:57:09 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <8C5AC1C3-C91B-488F-AEE2-765E943F14F9@illinois.edu> Congratulations, Bob and Sally. This must come as a great relief. So what will you do now? Cheers, Hans On 15 Nov 2016, at 14:50, Robert Goldman > wrote: Dear Colleagues, On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpg at berkeley.edu Wed Nov 16 03:43:12 2016 From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 19:43:12 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da?= In-Reply-To: <1FF9F114-8DE1-4351-8FEE-930F467C357A@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <9A999DA9-8609-470D-B860-00DCB68C11DD@berkeley.edu> Dear Friends and Colleagues, Sally and I would like to thank so many of your for your kind words of congratulation on the publication of our translation and annotation of the Uttarak???a. We are moved and grateful. It has been a long journey working with many fine scholars in India and the US, some of whom, sadly, are no more. But it has been a wonderful experience to be able to spend so many years immersed in the unparalleled rasas?gara and dharma??stra that is V?lm?ki?s ?dik?vya. We only hope that you all find it to be at least some small contribution to our understanding of this extraordinary work. As to Hans? question, my temptation was to say simply that we are going to Disneyland. But, in keeping with the principle, mara??nt?ni k?ry??i, we will now be taking up a fresh translation of Bhavabh?ti?s curious and largely ignored Mah?v?racarita in connection with the Murty series. Our warmest good wishes to you all. Bob Goldman Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0844.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 59744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 06:22:08 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 16 23:22:08 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_New_Publication:_The_Uttarak=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Da_of_the_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki_R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: <6D07E21F-520A-4FCC-962F-7618B0C12DF5@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Wonderful news, Bob. Please accept my warmest congratulations - echoing those of so many others - and please pass my congratulations to Sally too. What an achievement! What a gift to the world and to future generations! Best, Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 15 November 2016 at 13:50, Robert Goldman wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the > decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki > R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the > publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume > VII: Uttarak???a* > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. > Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South > and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.gansten at pbhome.se Wed Nov 16 08:47:00 2016 From: martin.gansten at pbhome.se (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 09:47:00 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <30A6A4F1-5339-44E1-A60C-50E1A1E02FE0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <031831e7-0f62-3f3e-3caa-fdb3b13ab704@pbhome.se> Bill, I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). Martin Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: > Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. > > Bill From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 09:29:05 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 19:59:05 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <031831e7-0f62-3f3e-3caa-fdb3b13ab704@pbhome.se> Message-ID: Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" wrote: > Bill, > > I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases > within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't > find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to > have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, > and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in > Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one > based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the > latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the > parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to > the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used > in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. > > In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen > over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian > astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without > any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it > is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical > past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the > implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but > essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by > Brahmanic authority). > > Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems > very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, > of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has > yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). > > Martin > > > Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: > >> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >> around. >> >> Bill >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed Nov 16 09:51:27 2016 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 09:51:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI In-Reply-To: <0DCA8F4E-0696-4CB7-B145-62B73966C167@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <1479205089.S.4152.4233.f4-234-193.1479289887.31212@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Klebanov, Thank you for your reference. However,Harshacharita , by Bana, is more of an Eulogy on the life and incidents of King Harsha,rather than being on a historical context. As against that,VikramankaDevCharita,( Authour-Bilhana) composed at least century ahead of Rajtarangini, in the 11th century, contains substantiated historical details on the time ans society prevailing during Emperor VikramaDitya's era. ALAKENDU DAS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:34:43 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 08:34:43 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <364E65DB-5A48-46FE-908F-FFCED021AD40@gmail.com> Dear Patrick, I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their values and belief-system to . What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. -- Bill M. Mak Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 Japan ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com > On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney wrote: > > Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. > > The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. > > These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. > > But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. > > Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. > > > On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > wrote: > Bill, > > I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. > > In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). > > Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). > > Martin > > > Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: > Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it Wed Nov 16 13:38:23 2016 From: davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it (David Pierdominici) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 14:38:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digital copy Message-ID: <3B22F901-2F0B-4052-BE4E-07677B362D27@uniroma1.it> Dear colleagues, does anyone have by chance a digital copy of ?La Vi?vagu??dar?acamp? de Ve?ka??dhvarin. Un po?me satirique sanskrit.? Introduction, traduction et notes par Marie-Claude Porcher, Institut Fran?ais d?Indologie, Pondich?ry, 1972 ? Thanks in advance. My best regards, David Pierdominici PhD candidate Sapienza Universit? di Roma -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Wed Nov 16 14:40:21 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 09:40:21 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <364E65DB-5A48-46FE-908F-FFCED021AD40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you Bill. I will focus on the case of ISKCON which I know fairly well. Clearly we have here a clash of worldviews, each deploying its own hermeneutical strategy. To get a little distance and detachment so that we can be clear on the hermeneutical and epistemological issues, consider various learned approaches to Judeo-Christian studies and their sacred texts. The Academy of course favors the historical-critical method, which is surely an essential, invaluable piece of the puzzle. However it may not be the whole puzzle. For example, leading scholars of Judaism such as James Kugel point out that traditional Hebrew Bible scholars make four initial assumptions that guide their exegesis. 1. All the highly variegated books of the Hebrew Bible ultimately present a unified message; 2. The message is didactic, i.e. it has a clear telos which is to elevate its readers; 3. The text is divinely inspired; and 4. The ultimate meaning may not be literal. Given those metaphysical assumptions which a priori cannot be empirically proved or disproved, traditional Bible scholarship is often internally consistent, clever, even at times profound. On the other hand, I believe that ?sacred? scholarlship that simply ignores the historical-critical method can easily become unhinged. I favor the approach of early Christian historian Dale Martin at Yale, who teaches the historical-critical method, yet points out the presumption of assuming that the historical-critical method necessarily reveals the final truth of a sacred text. Returning to explicit Indology, in the G?t? 15.15, K???a famously states, vedai? ca sarvair aham eva vedya?. Those who take this claim seriously as a spiritual truth will naturally accept that it warrants the notion of a unified, if complex, ?Vedic? message that points to K???a as the supreme knowable fact. Again, the historical-critical method, a priori, cannot prove or disprove such an obviously metaphysical claim about K???a. If one accepts the claim, then one may feel justified in a freer use of the adjective ?Vedic.? I hasten to add that even with this sort of ?sacred' hermeneutic there are modern uses of ?Vedic? that I too find silly and indeed unwarranted by anything that I can discern as rational. Ironically, the Bh?gavat-pur??a, perhaps the most important member of ISKCON?s canon, uses the term vaidika in the modern academic sense, and not in the general ISKCON sense. The BP almost always use vaidika to indicate conventional ?ruti in contrast to tantrika texts, taken there to mean various Vai??ava sm?ti or ?gama texts. Indeed, ISKCON?s canonical Caitanya-carit?m?ta restricts vaidika even further to the term vaidika br?hma?a, referring to a karma-k???a ritual technocrat. So curiously key ISKCON ??stras use Vaidika in the academic, not the ISKCON, sense. Regarding the ?pseudo-scientifc? claims of ?Vedic? or Puranic cosmography, I suggest that one seriously consider the work of the late Dr. Richard Thompson on this topic. Best, Howard > On Nov 16, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > > Dear Patrick, > > I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. > > In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their values and belief-system to . > > What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. > > -- > Bill M. Mak > > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 > Japan > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com >> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: >> >> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >> >> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >> >> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. >> >> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >> >> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. >> >> >> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > wrote: >> Bill, >> >> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >> >> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >> >> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >> >> Martin >> >> >> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. >> >> Bill >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dchakra at hotmail.de Wed Nov 16 15:30:58 2016 From: dchakra at hotmail.de (Dr. Debabrata Chakrabarti) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 15:30:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hg Sent from OPPO Mail On patrick mccartney , 16 Nov 2016 15:00 wrote: Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > wrote: Bill, I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). Martin Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. Bill _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 15:46:29 2016 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 08:46:29 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <031831e7-0f62-3f3e-3caa-fdb3b13ab704@pbhome.se> Message-ID: Hi Martin, "Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?)." So, in fact, the Maharishi people do call their medicine (and everything else they do, including astrology) Vedic. That is, they call medicine Maharishi Ayurved, and it's trademarked, but they insist it's Vedic. On 16 November 2016 at 01:47, Martin Gansten wrote: > Bill, > > I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases > within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't > find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to > have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, > and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in > Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one > based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the > latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the > parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to > the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used > in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. > > In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen > over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian > astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without > any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it > is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical > past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the > implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but > essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by > Brahmanic authority). > > Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems > very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, > of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has > yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). > > Martin > > > Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: > >> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >> around. >> >> Bill >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:09:47 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 00:39:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All cultures, religious and other traditions are made of continuities, changes and discontinuities; unities in diversities. To be able to grasp the whole picture with all the intricacy of relations in a cultural complex with a long history and a wide geographical spread that is outside the researcher's own culture needs a great amount of patience, empathy and delicate observation and fine understanding. In this difficult balance beam exercise, tight rope walk, it is easy to loose the balance and fall into discontinuities and diversities and miss to connect the continuities and unities. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Dagmar Wujastyk wrote: > Hi Martin, > > "Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think > anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have > they?)." > > So, in fact, the Maharishi people do call their medicine (and everything > else they do, including astrology) Vedic. That is, they call medicine > Maharishi Ayurved, and it's trademarked, but they insist it's Vedic. > > On 16 November 2016 at 01:47, Martin Gansten > wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases >> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't >> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to >> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, >> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one >> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the >> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the >> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to >> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used >> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >> >> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen >> over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian >> astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without >> any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it >> is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical >> past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the >> implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but >> essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by >> Brahmanic authority). >> >> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? >> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think >> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >> >> Martin >> >> >> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >> >>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >>> around. >>> >>> Bill >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:13:19 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 14:13:19 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <091C29FE-860D-4E75-90B7-C52617F102E5@gmail.com> On Nov 16, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Howard Resnick
wrote: > > Thank you Bill. I will focus on the case of ISKCON which I know fairly well. > > Regarding the ?pseudo-scientifc? claims of ?Vedic? or Puranic cosmography, I suggest that one seriously consider the work of the late Dr. Richard Thompson on this topic. > > Best, > Howard Kirfel?s two works, Die Kosmographie der Inder (1920) and Das Pur??a vom Weltgeb?ude (1954) remain the standard works on the subject of Indian cosmography and cosmology. Though dated, I do not think they have been superseded and scholars on this list should be familiar with them. Sadakata has provided some important updates in his two books in Japanese but a truly scholarly work in English on the topic has yet to emerge. Has any of Thompson?s works been reviewed? Did he have anything new to add? I do not want to sound unreasonably dismissive, but there is a long line of self-proclaimed Vedic scientists who try to convince the public that just because they have a PhD in mathematics, astrophysics or any of the ?hard? sciences, they will be irrefutably right in all other fields in the humanities and social sciences. If I have a PhD in Indology, I would not write a book on brain science and put my PhD on the book cover. I cannot imagine why anyone who wants to be taken seriously would do that. This reminds me of an embarrassing occasion at the last World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok where a speaker in the scientific panel presented a paper on the science of ?Buddhist yoga? and bewildered the audience with fantastic formulae of astrophysics. But the topics of certain scientists trying to prove that there are theories of relativity or quantum physics in the Vedas or that the vim?nas are evidences for Indian?s ancient space technology are old stories which I do not need to reiterate here (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/452573/iisc-research-debunked-long-ago.html ) If you have come across any serious works on Vedic astronomy or even Vedic astrology which you have read and believe to merit scholarly consideration, please share here or with me offline. -- Bill M. Mak Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 Japan ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com > > >> On Nov 16, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill Mak > wrote: >> >> Dear Patrick, >> >> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. >> >> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their values and belief-system to . >> >> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >> >> -- >> Bill M. Mak >> >> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> New York University >> 15 East 84th Street >> New York, NY 10028 >> US >> >> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >> Japan >> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> ??????????? >> >> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >> copies of my publications may be found at: >> http://www.billmak.com >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: >>> >>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >>> >>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>> >>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. >>> >>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>> >>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. >>> >>> >>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > wrote: >>> Bill, >>> >>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>> >>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>> >>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hr at ivs.edu Wed Nov 16 19:20:20 2016 From: hr at ivs.edu (Howard Resnick) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 14:20:20 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <091C29FE-860D-4E75-90B7-C52617F102E5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Notwithstanding all these hypothetical objections, I believe Thompson?s work to be of great value. Those on this list may judge for themselves. > On Nov 16, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > > On Nov 16, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Howard Resnick
> wrote: >> >> Thank you Bill. I will focus on the case of ISKCON which I know fairly well. >> >> Regarding the ?pseudo-scientifc? claims of ?Vedic? or Puranic cosmography, I suggest that one seriously consider the work of the late Dr. Richard Thompson on this topic. >> >> Best, >> Howard > > Kirfel?s two works, Die Kosmographie der Inder (1920) and Das Pur??a vom Weltgeb?ude (1954) remain the standard works on the subject of Indian cosmography and cosmology. Though dated, I do not think they have been superseded and scholars on this list should be familiar with them. Sadakata has provided some important updates in his two books in Japanese but a truly scholarly work in English on the topic has yet to emerge. Has any of Thompson?s works been reviewed? Did he have anything new to add? I do not want to sound unreasonably dismissive, but there is a long line of self-proclaimed Vedic scientists who try to convince the public that just because they have a PhD in mathematics, astrophysics or any of the ?hard? sciences, they will be irrefutably right in all other fields in the humanities and social sciences. If I have a PhD in Indology, I would not write a book on brain science and put my PhD on the book cover. I cannot imagine why anyone who wants to be taken seriously would do that. This reminds me of an embarrassing occasion at the last World Sanskrit Conference in Bangkok where a speaker in the scientific panel presented a paper on the science of ?Buddhist yoga? and bewildered the audience with fantastic formulae of astrophysics. But the topics of certain scientists trying to prove that there are theories of relativity or quantum physics in the Vedas or that the vim?nas are evidences for Indian?s ancient space technology are old stories which I do not need to reiterate here (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/452573/iisc-research-debunked-long-ago.html ) > > If you have come across any serious works on Vedic astronomy or even Vedic astrology which you have read and believe to merit scholarly consideration, please share here or with me offline. > > -- > Bill M. Mak > > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 > Japan > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > > >> >> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Bill Mak > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. >>> >>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their values and belief-system to . >>> >>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>> >>> -- >>> Bill M. Mak >>> >>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>> New York University >>> 15 East 84th Street >>> New York, NY 10028 >>> US >>> >>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>> Japan >>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>> ??????????? >>> >>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>> http://www.billmak.com >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: >>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. >>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > wrote: >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>>> >>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>>> >>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Wed Nov 16 19:28:47 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 19:28:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI In-Reply-To: <1479205089.S.4152.4233.f4-234-193.1479289887.31212@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: If you want to cast your net a bit wider than India proper, we have the ?va?sa? chronicles of Sri Lanka: Mah?va?sa etc, which are very much chronicles. Patrick > On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:51 AM, alakendu das wrote: > > > > Dr.Klebanov, > Thank you for your reference. However,Harshacharita , by Bana, is more of an Eulogy on the > life and incidents of King Harsha,rather than being on a historical context. As against > that,VikramankaDevCharita,( Authour-Bilhana) composed at least century ahead of Rajtarangini, in the 11th > century, contains substantiated historical details on the time ans society prevailing during Emperor > VikramaDitya's era. > > > ALAKENDU DAS > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu Wed Nov 16 19:54:41 2016 From: mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu (Mark McClish) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 19:54:41 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_two_artha=C5=9B=C4=81stra_sources?= Message-ID: <4D166822-630C-4B86-BA2A-DF35318D21CF@northwestern.edu> Dear friends, I?m having trouble locating two sources on artha??stra, and I hoped someone on the list might be able to help me. I give here the bibliographic information as I have it. 1. Ruben, W. 1929. Study in the Artha??stra. Dharwar. (This is cited in Sternbach?s Bibliography of Kau?ilya Artha??stra, which has a number of errors, as well as, at least, Botto?s article on dvaidh?bh?va in India Maior). Worldcat has the following, but I couldn?t get it from the British Library to see if it is the same: [cid:image002.jpg at 01D23916.8CB595A0] 2. Kavi, Ramakrishna. [title unknown: multiple articles on and text of the C?k?u??ya Artha??stra]. Journal of the Venkatesvara Oriental Institute. 1:79-89; 3:99-116; 4:123-128; 4:129-140; 6:129-140(?). This comes from Kane I p. 152ff. With thanks in advance for any help hunting down any of these. All best, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15412 bytes Desc: not available URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:13:54 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 06:43:54 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <364E65DB-5A48-46FE-908F-FFCED021AD40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. My frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature of my current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not really generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field work'. There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my city, so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and 'cold call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include trips to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic > narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of > universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this > particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of > an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world > and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one > that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim > their identities as defined by themselves and not others. > > In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western > historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic > Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun > and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the > Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a > hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and > across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created > in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. > Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of > universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to > represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their > values and belief-system to . > > What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in > the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of > the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it > is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a > spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the > ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the > reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed > were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are > so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not > consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as > pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as > ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more > benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. > > -- > Bill M. Mak > > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 > Japan > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > > Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that > "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional > Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my > interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means > the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of > the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: > "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the > astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel > development of these systems, even some people who claim to be > 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. > > The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's > attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include > myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of > maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. > > These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that > 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, > 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, > transcultural flows of ideas. > > But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down > what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. > However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. > > Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic > narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future > with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro > and macro scales of analysis. > > On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases >> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't >> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to >> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, >> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one >> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the >> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the >> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to >> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used >> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >> >> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen >> over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian >> astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without >> any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it >> is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical >> past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the >> implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but >> essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by >> Brahmanic authority). >> >> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? >> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think >> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >> >> Martin >> >> >> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >> >>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >>> around. >>> >>> Bill >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 22:47:26 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 17:47:26 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1D6C8C68-9453-4C25-BC20-2A1D8D19028B@gmail.com> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on the subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the science behind them as their predecessors, at least some, did. Yano Michio. 1992. Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo ??????????. ??: ?????. Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. Le Discours Du Destin. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. > On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney wrote: > > Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. My frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature of my current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not really generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field work'. There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my city, so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and 'cold call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include trips to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. > > > On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" > wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. > > In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their values and belief-system to . > > What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. > > -- > Bill M. Mak > > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 > Japan > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com >> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney > wrote: >> >> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel development of these systems, even some people who claim to be 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >> >> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >> >> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, transcultural flows of ideas. >> >> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >> >> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro and macro scales of analysis. >> >> >> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > wrote: >> Bill, >> >> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >> >> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >> >> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >> >> Martin >> >> >> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been around. >> >> Bill >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 23:38:46 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 18:38:46 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for scanned copy of article Message-ID: Dear list members, I looked through my xerox copies, and searched online without success. If any of you can provide a scan of this article (or the book), I will be most grateful: ?ber die Ny?yaka?ik? des V?caspatimi?ra und die indische Lehre vom kategorischen Imperativ, in: Beitr?ge zur Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte Indiens. Festgabe Hermann Jacobi zum 75. Geburtstag (11.2.1925), dargebracht von Freunden, Kollegen und Sch?lern, ed. by Willibald Kirfel. Bonn, 1926, S. 369-380. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:21:45 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 06:51:45 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <1D6C8C68-9453-4C25-BC20-2A1D8D19028B@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the science behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting mine) ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would have used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary quantifiers like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know how to make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do what they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what they do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make their own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may be able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), some may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The situation is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher and higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or judgemental about the observed. On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the > works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on the > subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly > interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian > astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still > capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of > relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of modernization > and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners these > days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate horoscopes > without truly understanding the science behind them as their predecessors, > at least some, did. > > Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. > Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. > > On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > > Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of > things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. My > frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature of my > current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not really > generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field work'. > There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my city, > so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and 'cold > call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include trips > to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with > visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. > > On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: > >> Dear Patrick, >> >> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic >> narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic model of >> universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at least in this >> particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems to be part of >> an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the modern world >> and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western culture, one >> that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some sought to reclaim >> their identities as defined by themselves and not others. >> >> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western >> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun >> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a >> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and >> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created >> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. >> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of >> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to >> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their >> values and belief-system to . >> >> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in >> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of >> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it >> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a >> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the >> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the >> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed >> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are >> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not >> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as >> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more >> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >> >> -- >> Bill M. Mak >> >> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> New York University >> 15 East 84th Street >> New York, NY 10028 >> US >> >> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >> Japan >> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> ??????????? >> >> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >> copies of my publications may be found at: >> http://www.billmak.com >> >> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney >> wrote: >> >> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim >> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though >> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means >> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of >> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: >> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the >> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >> >> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of >> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >> >> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that >> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, >> transcultural flows of ideas. >> >> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down >> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. >> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >> >> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic >> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future >> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro >> and macro scales of analysis. >> >> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >> wrote: >> >>> Bill, >>> >>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases >>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't >>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to >>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, >>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one >>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the >>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the >>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to >>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used >>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>> >>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have >>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all >>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically >>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period >>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, >>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional >>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and >>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, >>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>> >>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? >>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think >>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>> >>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >>>> around. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Thu Nov 17 02:52:36 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 16 21:52:36 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for scanned copy of article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F493C24-1AD0-4629-9DBC-319DC678B199@verizon.net> My thanks to Marcus Schm?ker for the rapid respons.! Our list members are best for response to requests like this! Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > On 16 Nov 2016, at 18:38, Elliot Stern wrote: > > Dear list members, > > I looked through my xerox copies, and searched online without success. If any of you can provide a scan of this article (or the book), I will be most grateful: > > ?ber die Ny?yaka?ik? des V?caspatimi?ra und die indische Lehre vom kategorischen Imperativ, in: Beitr?ge zur Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte Indiens. Festgabe Hermann Jacobi zum 75. Geburtstag (11.2.1925), dargebracht von Freunden, Kollegen und Sch?lern, ed. by Willibald Kirfel. Bonn, 1926, S. 369-380. > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 03:24:30 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 08:54:30 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patrick, >The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the latter in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because it is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called 'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the Vedas. On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means > that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile > applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the science > behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting > mine) > > ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would have > used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary quantifiers > like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of > astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know how to > make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do what > they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt > from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what they > do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make their > own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may be > able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or > bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), some > may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The situation > is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher and > higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature > observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or > judgemental about the observed. > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > >> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the >> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on the >> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly >> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still >> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of >> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of modernization >> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners these >> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate horoscopes >> without truly understanding the science behind them as their predecessors, >> at least some, did. >> >> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. >> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. >> >> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney >> wrote: >> >> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of >> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. My >> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature of my >> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not really >> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field work'. >> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my city, >> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and 'cold >> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include trips >> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >> >> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >> >>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a >>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic >>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at >>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems >>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the >>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western >>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some >>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. >>> >>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western >>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun >>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a >>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and >>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created >>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. >>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of >>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to >>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their >>> values and belief-system to . >>> >>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in >>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of >>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it >>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a >>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the >>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the >>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed >>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are >>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not >>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as >>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more >>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>> >>> -- >>> Bill M. Mak >>> >>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>> New York University >>> 15 East 84th Street >>> New York, NY 10028 >>> US >>> >>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>> Japan >>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>> ??????????? >>> >>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>> http://www.billmak.com >>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney >>> wrote: >>> >>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim >>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though >>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means >>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of >>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: >>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the >>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >>> >>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of >>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>> >>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that >>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, >>> transcultural flows of ideas. >>> >>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down >>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. >>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>> >>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic >>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future >>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro >>> and macro scales of analysis. >>> >>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases >>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't >>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to >>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, >>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one >>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the >>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the >>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to >>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used >>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>>> >>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have >>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all >>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically >>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period >>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, >>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional >>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and >>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, >>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>>> >>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? >>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think >>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>>> >>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >>>>> around. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 04:50:15 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 15:20:15 +1030 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nagaraj, regarding your last email over 'most' v 'many' I was specifically referring to the people that I have interviewed. Perhaps this could have been more clearly articulated. This was not some broad, insensitive generalisation. I can assure you that from my data set over 50% of people, which apparently is the cut off mark for determining whether to use 'most' or 'many', responded that they don't really know what 'Vedic maths' is. Not a single person (mostly westerners) raised the distinction you make regarding the difference between the varieties of maths from the sulba sutras and chandas. It is interesting, I think, that, *many*people have responded in one of two ways to the question: What is 'Vedic mathematics?': 1) "I don't know what it is"; or 2) "It's something to do with counting faster". When I think of 'Vedic maths' it is also with the 'speed maths' variety in mind. Thank you for clarifying the differences. I appreciate it. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Patrick, > > >The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's > attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include > myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of > maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. > > Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book > called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the > maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the latter > in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because it > is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called > 'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the > Vedas. > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? >> means that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or >> mobile applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the >> science behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. >> (Highlighting mine) >> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would >> have used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary >> quantifiers like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of >> 'users' of astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would >> know how to make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have >> to do what they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making >> learnt from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do >> what they do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to >> make their own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. >> Some may be able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without >> knowing or bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge >> for), some may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. >> The situation is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with >> higher and higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A >> mature observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or >> judgemental about the observed. >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak wrote: >> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on the >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of modernization >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners these >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate horoscopes >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their predecessors, >>> at least some, did. >>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. >>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. My >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature of my >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not really >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field work'. >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my city, >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and 'cold >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include trips >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. >>>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the >>>> Western historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their >>>> values and belief-system to . >>>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like >>>> in the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents >>>> of the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, >>>> it is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bill M. Mak >>>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>>> New York University >>>> 15 East 84th Street >>>> New York, NY 10028 >>>> US >>>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>>> Japan >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>>> ??????????? >>>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>>> http://www.billmak.com >>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis >>>> that 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. >>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin >>>> down what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro >>>> and macro scales of analysis. >>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>>>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>>>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer >>>>>> to horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >>>>>> around. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.pasedach at googlemail.com Thu Nov 17 06:49:14 2016 From: peter.pasedach at googlemail.com (Peter Mukunda Pasedach) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 07:49:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI In-Reply-To: <20161115095451.4853.qmail@f4mail-235-241.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Alakendu Das, To Ratn?kara, 9th century Kashmir, author of the Haravijaya, is attributed a chronicle of the kings of Kashmir, possibly only surviving in fragments of translations into Persian and Urdu. See the following blog post of Vinayak Razdan, http://www.searchkashmir.org/2014/06/hasan-shah-and-lost-kings-of.html , and, linked from there, scans of two articles of Pandit Ananda Koul in the Journal and Proceedings of the Asiatic Society of Bengal from early 20th century, https://archive.org/details/HasansHistoryOfKashmir . I was made aware of it by Muzaffar Ahmad, https://independent.academia.edu/MuzaffarAhmad , who is working on it. Best Regards, Peter Pasedach On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:54 AM, alakendu das wrote: > > If anybody may kindly enlighten me on the existence of any medieval > composition on any Historical context on India ,prior to RAJTARANGINI? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From 249292 at soas.ac.uk Thu Nov 17 07:13:02 2016 From: 249292 at soas.ac.uk (Patricia Sauthoff) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 12:43:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Devanagari font: Shobhika Message-ID: Dear Clemency, Just a quick note to you and your collaborators thanking you for the lovely font. I'm using it now for my Sanskrit I final and it is so much better than what I had before. Conjuncts that are correct! Thank you so much and cheers! > > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 04:05:20 +0000 > From: Clemency Montelle > To: Indology > Cc: Aditya Kolachana , Krishnamurthi > Ramasubramanian > Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Devanagari font: Shobhika > Message-ID: > <373FE003EA3D2949BCC16219C67CBBF77FBE21B7 at UCEXMBX04-I. > canterbury.ac.nz> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear Colleagues, > > I'm passing on this announcement from my collaborators at IITBombay who > have just released a beautiful new Devanagari font called Shobhika. The > font has been carefully and mindfully executed by a team of Sanskrit, IT, > and visual design specialists, and the attention to detail that has gone > into all aspects of the process produces a very pleasing end result (I > attach a screen shot for a quick view of the font). > > Please find below the link to the public Github repository of the free, > open source font. The instructions to download v1.0 of the font are given > under the 'Downloading the font' section in the link below: > > https://github.com/Sandhi-IITBombay/Shobhika > > I quote from their preamble: > > "Shobhika is a free, open source, Unicode compliant, OpenType font with > support for Devan?gar?, Latin, and Cyrillic scripts. It is available in two > weights?regular and bold. The font is designed with over 1600 Devan?gar? > glyphs, including support for over 1100 conjunct consonants, as well as > vedic accents. The Latin component of the font not only supports a wide > range of characters required for Roman transliteration of Sanskrit, but > also provides a subset of regularly used mathematical symbols for scholars > working with scientific and technical documents. The project has been > launched under the auspices of the Science and Heritage Initiative (SandHI) > at IIT Bombay blob/master/www.iitb.ac.in>, and builds upon the following two fonts for > its Devan?gar? and Latin components respectively: (i) Yashomudra< > https://github.com/RajyaMarathiVikasSanstha/Yashomudra> by R?jya Mar??h? > Vik?s Sa?sth?, and (ii) PT Serif< > https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Serif> by ParaType< > http://www.paratype.com/>. We would like to thank both these > organisations for releasing their fonts under the SIL Open Font Licence, > which has enabled us to create Shobhika. " > > The creators of the font also request any feedback that you have so that > it may be further improved. > > With best wishes, > Clemency > > ---- > Dr Clemency Montelle > http://www.math.canterbury.ac.nz/~c.montelle/ > School of Mathematics and Statistics > University of Canterbury | Te Whare Wananga o Waitaha > Private Bag 4800, Christchurch 8140 > NEW ZEALAND > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 08:56:18 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 14:26:18 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Re: 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: <25009582d5b179e098@wm-srv.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: Dear Jean, Since you said "Dear Colleagues" I am forwarding your message to the list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jean-Michel Delire Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology To: Nagaraj Paturi Dear Colleagues, I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of the sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never been called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, always been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my recent book http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by instance. Best, Jean Michel >Patrick, > >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. > >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the latter >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because it >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the >Vedas. > >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi >wrote: > >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the science >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting >> mine) >> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would have >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary quantifiers >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know how to >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do what >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what they >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make their >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may be >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), some >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The situation >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher and >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or >> judgemental about the observed. >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak wrote: >> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on the >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of modernization >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners these >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate horoscopes >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their predecessors, >>> at least some, did. >>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. >>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. My >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature of my >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not really >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field work'. >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my city, >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and 'cold >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include trips >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and ?Vedic >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it seems >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in the >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the Western >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not others. >>>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the Western >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside Sun >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is a >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous and >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was created >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, e.g. >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the model of >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful image to >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their >>>> values and belief-system to . >>>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like in >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The proponents of >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has science, it >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based on the >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they constructed >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they use are >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do not >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such as >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the seemingly more >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bill M. Mak >>>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>>> New York University >>>> 15 East 84th Street >>>> New York, NY 10028 >>>> US >>>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>>> Japan >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>>> ??????????? >>>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>>> http://www.billmak.com >>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even though >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it means >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part of >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is overwhelmingly: >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate them. >>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis that >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by premodern, >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. >>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin down >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and future >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both micro >>>> and macro scales of analysis. >>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various phrases >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I can't >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit seems to >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical period, >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not the one >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' that the >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps not to >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are used >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>>>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label all >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', typically >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical period >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a vague, >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of 'traditional >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient and >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>>>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first appears? >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have they?). >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer to >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? under >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things might have >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly been >>>>>> around. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >>> unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > >-- >Nagaraj Paturi > >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:03:43 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 14:33:43 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random search: S'ulba sutras: http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html Chhandas: Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of Pingala Chandas Sutram) Hardcover ? 1 Apr 2014 by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan (Author) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Ancient-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications Of Vedic Mathematics] Paperback ? 2013 by Kapildev Dwivedi (Author), Shyamlal Singh (Author) http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-Mathematics/dp/8171248772 On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Dear Jean, > > Since you said "Dear Colleagues" > > I am forwarding your message to the list. > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jean-Michel Delire > Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM > Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology > To: Nagaraj Paturi > > > Dear Colleagues, > > I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of the > sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never been > called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, always > been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my recent book > http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by instance. > > Best, > > Jean Michel > > > >Patrick, > > > >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's > >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include > >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of > >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. > > > >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book > >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the > >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the latter > >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because it > >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called > >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the > >Vedas. > > > >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > >wrote: > > > >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? > means > >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile > >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the > science > >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting > >> mine) > >> > >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would > have > >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary > quantifiers > >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of > >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know > how to > >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do what > >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt > >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what > they > >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make > their > >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may > be > >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or > >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), some > >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The > situation > >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher and > >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature > >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or > >> judgemental about the observed. > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > >> > >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the > >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on > the > >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly > >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian > >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still > >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of > >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of > modernization > >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners > these > >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate > horoscopes > >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their > predecessors, > >>> at least some, did. > >>> > >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. > >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. > >>> > >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of > >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history. > My > >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature > of my > >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not > really > >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field > work'. > >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my > city, > >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and > 'cold > >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include > trips > >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with > >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. > >>> > >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: > >>> > >>>> Dear Patrick, > >>>> > >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a > >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and > ?Vedic > >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at > >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it > seems > >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in > the > >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the > Western > >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some > >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not > others. > >>>> > >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the > Western > >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic > >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside > Sun > >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the > >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is > a > >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous > and > >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was > created > >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, > e.g. > >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the > model of > >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful > image to > >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their > >>>> values and belief-system to . > >>>> > >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like > in > >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The > proponents of > >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has > science, it > >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a > >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based > on the > >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the > >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they > constructed > >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they > use are > >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do > not > >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as > >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such > as > >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the > seemingly more > >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Bill M. Mak > >>>> > >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > >>>> New York University > >>>> 15 East 84th Street > >>>> New York, NY 10028 > >>>> US > >>>> > >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 > >>>> Japan > >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? > >>>> ??????????? > >>>> > >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > >>>> > >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: > >>>> http://www.billmak.com > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney < > psdmccartney at gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim > >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, > >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even > though > >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert it > means > >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part > of > >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is > overwhelmingly: > >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the > >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel > >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be > >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate > them. > >>>> > >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's > >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I > include > >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this > type of > >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. > >>>> > >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis > that > >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, > >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by > premodern, > >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. > >>>> > >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin > down > >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. > >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. > >>>> > >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic > >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and > future > >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both > micro > >>>> and macro scales of analysis. > >>>> > >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Bill, > >>>>> > >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various > phrases > >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I > can't > >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit > seems to > >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical > period, > >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in > >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not > the one > >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' > that the > >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the > >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps > not to > >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are > used > >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. > >>>>> > >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have > >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label > all > >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', > typically > >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical > period > >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a > vague, > >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of > 'traditional > >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient > and > >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, > >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). > >>>>> > >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context > >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first > appears? > >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think > >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have > they?). > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer > to > >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? > under > >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things > might have > >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly > been > >>>>>> around. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bill > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >>>>> committee) > >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options > >>>>> or unsubscribe) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >>> committee) > >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or > >>> unsubscribe) > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Nagaraj Paturi > >> > >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > >> > >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > >> > >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > >> > >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >Nagaraj Paturi > > > >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > > >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > > >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > > >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:12:51 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 14:42:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Missed to put the word 'Vedic Mathematics' I wanted to say, The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random search: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the > S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken > as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the > first of the pages that I found through my random search: > > S'ulba sutras: > > > http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html > > > > http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html > > > Chhandas: > > > > Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of Pingala > Chandas Sutram) Hardcover ? 1 Apr 2014 > > > by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan > > (Author) > > > > > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science- > Technology-Ancient-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM > > > > > > Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications Of > Vedic Mathematics] Paperback ? 2013 > > > by Kapildev Dwivedi > (Author), > Shyamlal Singh > > (Author) > > > > > > http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications- > Mathematics/dp/8171248772 > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Dear Jean, >> >> Since you said "Dear Colleagues" >> >> I am forwarding your message to the list. >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Jean-Michel Delire >> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM >> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology >> To: Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of the >> sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never been >> called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, always >> been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my recent book >> http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by instance. >> >> Best, >> >> Jean Michel >> >> >> >Patrick, >> > >> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of >> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >> > >> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book >> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the >> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the latter >> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because >> it >> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called >> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the >> >Vedas. >> > >> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > > >> >wrote: >> > >> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? >> means >> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile >> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the >> science >> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting >> >> mine) >> >> >> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would >> have >> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary >> quantifiers >> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of >> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know >> how to >> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do >> what >> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt >> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what >> they >> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make >> their >> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may >> be >> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or >> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), >> some >> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The >> situation >> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher >> and >> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature >> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or >> >> judgemental about the observed. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the >> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works >> on the >> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is >> particularly >> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still >> >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of >> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of >> modernization >> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners >> these >> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate >> horoscopes >> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their >> predecessors, >> >>> at least some, did. >> >>> >> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. >> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS ?ditions. >> >>> >> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney < >> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of >> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and >> history. My >> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature >> of my >> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not >> really >> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field >> work'. >> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my >> city, >> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and >> 'cold >> >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include >> trips >> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >> >>> >> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Dear Patrick, >> >>>> >> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a >> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and >> ?Vedic >> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, >> at >> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it >> seems >> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture >> in the >> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the >> Western >> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some >> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not >> others. >> >>>> >> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the >> Western >> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet >> beside Sun >> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology >> is a >> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and >> indigenous and >> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was >> created >> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, >> e.g. >> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the >> model of >> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful >> image to >> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align >> their >> >>>> values and belief-system to . >> >>>> >> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just >> like in >> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The >> proponents of >> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has >> science, it >> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., >> a >> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based >> on the >> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the >> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they >> constructed >> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they >> use are >> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do >> not >> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims >> such as >> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the >> seemingly more >> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Bill M. Mak >> >>>> >> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> >>>> New York University >> >>>> 15 East 84th Street >> >>>> New York, NY 10028 >> >>>> US >> >>>> >> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >> >>>> Japan >> >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> >>>> ??????????? >> >>>> >> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >>>> >> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >> >>>> http://www.billmak.com >> >>>> >> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney < >> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim >> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even >> though >> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert >> it means >> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' >> part of >> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is >> overwhelmingly: >> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the >> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly >> differentiate them. >> >>>> >> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I >> include >> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this >> type of >> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >> >>>> >> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis >> that >> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by >> premodern, >> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. >> >>>> >> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin >> down >> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'. >> >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >> >>>> >> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic >> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and >> future >> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both >> micro >> >>>> and macro scales of analysis. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Bill, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various >> phrases >> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I >> can't >> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit >> seems to >> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical >> period, >> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in >> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not >> the one >> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' >> that the >> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by >> the >> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps >> not to >> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras >> are used >> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have >> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves >> label all >> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', >> typically >> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical >> period >> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a >> vague, >> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of >> 'traditional >> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only >> ancient and >> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out, >> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context >> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first >> appears? >> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't >> think >> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or >> have they?). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Martin >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did >> refer to >> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? >> under >> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things >> might have >> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have >> certainly been >> >>>>>> around. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Bill >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> >>>>> committee) >> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options >> >>>>> or unsubscribe) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> >>> committee) >> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >> options or >> >>> unsubscribe) >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Nagaraj Paturi >> > >> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> > >> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> > >> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> > >> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:43:29 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 15:13:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I already gave the reason why it is justified to use the word 'Vedic Mathematics' in reference to S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Missed to put the word 'Vedic Mathematics' > > I wanted to say, > > The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in > reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I > need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books > that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random > search: > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the >> S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken >> as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the >> first of the pages that I found through my random search: >> >> S'ulba sutras: >> >> >> http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html >> >> >> >> http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html >> >> >> Chhandas: >> >> >> >> Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of >> Pingala Chandas Sutram) Hardcover ? 1 Apr 2014 >> >> >> by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan >> >> (Author) >> >> >> >> >> >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Anci >> ent-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM >> >> >> >> >> >> Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications >> Of Vedic Mathematics] Paperback ? 2013 >> >> >> by Kapildev Dwivedi >> (Author), >> Shyamlal Singh >> >> (Author) >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-M >> athematics/dp/8171248772 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jean, >>> >>> Since you said "Dear Colleagues" >>> >>> I am forwarding your message to the list. >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Jean-Michel Delire >>> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM >>> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology >>> To: Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of >>> the sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never >>> been called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, >>> always been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my >>> recent book http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by >>> instance. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jean Michel >>> >>> >>> >Patrick, >>> > >>> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >>> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type >>> of >>> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>> > >>> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques >>> book >>> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the >>> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the >>> latter >>> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because >>> it >>> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called >>> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the >>> >Vedas. >>> > >>> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> >>> >wrote: >>> > >>> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? >>> means >>> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile >>> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the >>> science >>> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting >>> >> mine) >>> >> >>> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would >>> have >>> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary >>> quantifiers >>> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of >>> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know >>> how to >>> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do >>> what >>> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making >>> learnt >>> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what >>> they >>> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make >>> their >>> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some >>> may be >>> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or >>> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), >>> some >>> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The >>> situation >>> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher >>> and >>> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature >>> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or >>> >> judgemental about the observed. >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? >>> the >>> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works >>> on the >>> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is >>> particularly >>> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >>> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were >>> still >>> >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of >>> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of >>> modernization >>> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most >>> practitioners these >>> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate >>> horoscopes >>> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their >>> predecessors, >>> >>> at least some, did. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????. >>> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS >>> ?ditions. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney < >>> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of >>> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and >>> history. My >>> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious >>> nature of my >>> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not >>> really >>> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field >>> work'. >>> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in >>> my city, >>> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and >>> 'cold >>> >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to >>> include trips >>> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >>> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a >>> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and >>> ?Vedic >>> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, >>> at >>> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, >>> it seems >>> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture >>> in the >>> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the >>> Western >>> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, >>> some >>> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not >>> others. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the >>> Western >>> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >>> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet >>> beside Sun >>> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >>> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology >>> is a >>> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and >>> indigenous and >>> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was >>> created >>> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks, >>> e.g. >>> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the >>> model of >>> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful >>> image to >>> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align >>> their >>> >>>> values and belief-system to . >>> >>>> >>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just >>> like in >>> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The >>> proponents of >>> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has >>> science, it >>> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, >>> i.e., a >>> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based >>> on the >>> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the >>> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they >>> constructed >>> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they >>> use are >>> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars >>> do not >>> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >>> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims >>> such as >>> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the >>> seemingly more >>> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> Bill M. Mak >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>> >>>> New York University >>> >>>> 15 East 84th Street >>> >>>> New York, NY 10028 >>> >>>> US >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>> >>>> Japan >>> >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>> >>>> ??????????? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>> >>>> >>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>> >>>> http://www.billmak.com >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney < >>> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the >>> claim >>> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >>> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even >>> though >>> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert >>> it means >>> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' >>> part of >>> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is >>> overwhelmingly: >>> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between >>> the >>> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >>> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >>> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly >>> differentiate them. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I >>> include >>> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this >>> type of >>> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis >>> that >>> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >>> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by >>> premodern, >>> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin >>> down >>> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = >>> 'better'. >>> >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a >>> Vedic >>> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and >>> future >>> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both >>> micro >>> >>>> and macro scales of analysis. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> Bill, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various >>> phrases >>> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but >>> I can't >>> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit >>> seems to >>> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical >>> period, >>> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present >>> in >>> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is >>> not the one >>> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' >>> that the >>> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by >>> the >>> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps >>> not to >>> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras >>> are used >>> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we >>> have >>> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves >>> label all >>> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', >>> typically >>> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular >>> historical period >>> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to >>> a vague, >>> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of >>> 'traditional >>> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only >>> ancient and >>> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed >>> out, >>> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this >>> context >>> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first >>> appears? >>> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't >>> think >>> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or >>> have they?). >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Martin >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did >>> refer to >>> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology? >>> under >>> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things >>> might have >>> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have >>> certainly been >>> >>>>>> around. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Bill >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> >>>>> committee) >>> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>> options >>> >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> >>> committee) >>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>> options or >>> >>> unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >> >>> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >> >>> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >> >>> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >> >>> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Nagaraj Paturi >>> > >>> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> > >>> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> > >>> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> > >>> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at verizon.net Thu Nov 17 13:43:08 2016 From: emstern at verizon.net (Elliot Stern) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 08:43:08 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for scanned copy of article FULFILLED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Marcus Schm?cker for supplying the requested article! Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America telephone: 215-747-6204 mobile: 267-240-8418 emstern at verizon.net > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Elliot Stern > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for scanned copy of article > Date: 16 November 2016 at 18:38:46 EST > To: Indology Indology listserve > > Dear list members, > > I looked through my xerox copies, and searched online without success. If any of you can provide a scan of this article (or the book), I will be most grateful: > > ?ber die Ny?yaka?ik? des V?caspatimi?ra und die indische Lehre vom kategorischen Imperativ, in: Beitr?ge zur Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte Indiens. Festgabe Hermann Jacobi zum 75. Geburtstag (11.2.1925), dargebracht von Freunden, Kollegen und Sch?lern, ed. by Willibald Kirfel. Bonn, 1926, S. 369-380. > > Elliot M. Stern > 552 South 48th Street > Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 > United States of America > telephone: 215-747-6204 > mobile: 267-240-8418 > emstern at verizon.net > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Thu Nov 17 15:40:54 2016 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 16:40:54 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Peter, Thank you for the intriguing reference about the Ratn?kara Pur??a. But the papers on Archive seem not to associate this Pandit Ratn?kara with the author of the Haravijaya. Is it just a mere assumption based on the title of the chronicle? Could you point me to any other consistent sources, if they exist? Best Alessandro Battistini Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden 2016-11-17 7:49 GMT+01:00 Peter Mukunda Pasedach via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Messaggio inoltrato ---------- > From: Peter Mukunda Pasedach > To: alakendu das > Cc: indology at list.indology.info > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:49:14 +0100 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI > Dear Alakendu Das, > > To Ratn?kara, 9th century Kashmir, author of the Haravijaya, is > attributed a chronicle of the kings of Kashmir, possibly only > surviving in fragments of translations into Persian and Urdu. See the > following blog post of Vinayak Razdan, > http://www.searchkashmir.org/2014/06/hasan-shah-and-lost-kings-of.html > , and, linked from there, scans of two articles of Pandit Ananda Koul > in the Journal and Proceedings of the Asiatic Society of Bengal from > early 20th century, https://archive.org/details/HasansHistoryOfKashmir > . I was made aware of it by Muzaffar Ahmad, > https://independent.academia.edu/MuzaffarAhmad , who is working on it. > > Best Regards, > > Peter Pasedach > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:54 AM, alakendu das > wrote: > > > > If anybody may kindly enlighten me on the existence of any medieval > > composition on any Historical context on India ,prior to RAJTARANGINI? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it Thu Nov 17 15:51:07 2016 From: alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it (Alessandro Battistini) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 16:51:07 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Christophe, Thank you very much for all the details on Bhoja's vy?kara?a, and for pointing to digital editions! Seems we have killed two birds with one stone. Whatever we mean by Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a, now we have plenty of material to work with... Best Alessandro Battistini Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden 2016-11-15 13:55 GMT+01:00 Christophe Vielle : > I should have add that there is another good ed. of the adh. 2 p?d. 1-3 > of the SKBh (gram.) based on the Madras Ms. R. no. 4179 : > The U??dis?tras of Bhoja with the V?tti of Da??an?tha N?r?ya?a, ed. T. R. > Chintamani, Madras University Sanskrit Series no. 7 (= The U??dis?tras in > Various Recensions) part VI [A], 1934 (Reprint New Delhi: Navrang, 1993): > http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/292655 > http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/496423 > http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/368313 > > See p. xii about the use of the name Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a > > Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 12:43, Madhav Deshpande a ?crit : > > Thanks, Christophe and Alessandro. Great help in accessing these rare > books. > > Madhav Deshpande > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 6:23 AM, Christophe Vielle < > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > >> Thank you much for this, dear Alessandro. >> >> Note that beside Bhoja's "?la?k?rika" Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a, there is >> another, grammatical (in *s?tra*-form), Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a ascribed >> to the same (which is not distinguished in Cahill's Bibliography). >> >> The edition of the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a-*vy**?kara**?**a*, in 8 *adhy* >> *?ya*-s, ascribed to Bhoja, with the (probably 11th c., contemporary) *v* >> *?**tti *H?dayah?ri?? of N?r?ya?abha??a Da??an?tha, was left incomplete >> in the Trivandrum Sanskrit Series; it was planned in 5 volumes, of which >> the first four only were issued: >> >> vol. I [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313457 or http://ww >> w.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407040] = TSS no. 117 (1935) contains the >> *adh.* 1, >> >> vol. II [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313459 or http://ww >> w.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407042] = no. 127 (1937) the *adh.* 2, >> >> vol. III [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313458 or http://ww >> w.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/407041] = no. 140 (1938) the *adh. *3-4, >> >> and vol. IV [http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/313401 or http://ww >> w.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/406984] = no. 154 (1948) the *adh. *5-6 >> [+ index]. >> >> The vol. V with the *adh. *7-8 was said ?in the press? from 1948 >> onwards : it should have had the no. 182 in the series (the no. with the >> title of the vol. is still said ?not yet published? in 2005). One can fear >> that the manuscript of this last volume is now lost (I mean that the work >> possibly ready for the press was destroyed or is lost somewhere in the >> ORI&ML building?). >> >> The edition of the complete grammar by T. R. Chintamani published in the >> Madras University Sanskrit Series no. 11 (1937: http://www.new.dli.erne >> t.in/handle/2015/52186) has only the text of the *s**?**tra*-s, as it is >> the case of the 1992 ed. of the last (8th) *adh. *(which adds for each >> *s?tra* an useful *anvaya* giving the *s**?**tr**?rtha *and a Gujarati >> commentary by the editor : http://books.google.be/books?id=uICH235KSUMC). >> >> Due to the importance of this post-p??inean work, as stressed on by >> Louis Renou (*?tudes v?diques et p**?**?**in?ennes*, t. 3, 1957, PICI >> series no. 4, pp. 121-7) and Robert Birw? (?N?r?ya?a Da??an?tha?s >> Commentary on Rules III.2, 106-121 of Bhoja?s Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a?, >> JAOS 84/2, 1964, pp. 150-162), the completing of the edition of the H? >> dayah?ri?? *v**?**tti *is something hoped. >> >> Here are a few Mss. I hinted : >> >> Alph Index KUML vol. 4, ser. no. 19347-8 = Mss no. C.1846 (complete), >> with ref. to the ?DCS [of the COL ser. no.] 557?, and Ms. no. 839B; vol. 7, >> ser. no. 34766-7 = Ms. no. 19827 (complete), and Ms. no. 14758 ; Descr. >> Cat. Calicut, p. 335-6 no. 591-2 (incompl.) [all mss. in Mal. script on >> palm leaves]; GOML Alph. Ind. vol. 2, ser. no. 23096 = Ms. R. 4179 Tr. Cat. >> vol. 4/1/SkrtB, 1928, pp. 6160-2 [transcr. Dev. on paper < Mal. ms. of >> Kunankulam, incompl. adh. 1-mid 4 ; cf. the complete ms. of the *s?tra* only >> described ibid. R. no. 3279 pp. 4880-1, transcr. D on paper < Mal. ms >> Kottakal] >> Best wishes, >> >> Christophe >> >> Le 15 nov. 2016 ? 10:34, Alessandro Battistini < >> alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it> a ?crit : >> >> Dear all, >> >> with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson >> (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of >> the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the >> Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in >> various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned >> in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across >> it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the >> ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link >> >> . >> >> Best, >> >> Alessandro Battistini >> Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:08:07 2016 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 21:38:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Deadline Reminder: Rasa Theory Workshop, Manipal, India (February 13-17, 2017) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, This is a gentle reminder about the 'Rasa Theory Workshop' we are organising in February 2017. The deadline for applications is 30 November 2016. Please find more details about the workshop and the application process on the below mentioned link: https://kashuradab.wordpress.com/workshop-on-the-rasa-theory/ I would be very happy if you can spread the word and forward the information to the potential graduate students and researchers in the field of Indology, South Asian Studies, Indian Philosophy, Aesthetics, and Saiva Philosophy. Our approach would be strongly philological and we do hope that the workshop would offer an excellent learning opportunity for all the participants at an international platform. Hoping to see many of you here in Manipal. Best wishes. Mrinal Kaul [image: Inline images 1] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rasawrkshopposter-2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1479874 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Thu Nov 17 16:32:48 2016 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 17:32:48 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, I have discovered in my files that there is a dissertation on the Padaprak??a by ?ja?a, a hitherto unpublished commentary on the Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a (ala?k?ra). It appears to be missing in Cahill's bibliography, but perhaps I have overlooked something. The bibliographical details are: A / Critical Edition of Padaprak??a / hitherto unpublished commentary / of / ?ja?a / on / Bhoja's Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a The thesis submitted for Ph.D. degree / of / Gujurat University, Ahmedabad. 1984 On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Alessandro Battistini < alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it> wrote: > Dear all, > > with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson > (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of > the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the > Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in > various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned > in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across > it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the > ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link > > . > > Best, > > Alessandro Battistini > Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:55:02 2016 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 11:55:02 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note that the dissertation on the Padaprak??a that Victor mentioned is available here: http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/47474 On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:32 AM, victor davella via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: victor davella > To: Alessandro Battistini > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:32:48 +0100 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rare commentary on Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a > Dear All, > > I have discovered in my files that there is a dissertation on the > Padaprak??a by ?ja?a, a hitherto unpublished commentary on the > Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a (ala?k?ra). It appears to be missing in Cahill's > bibliography, but perhaps I have overlooked something. > > The bibliographical details are: > > A / Critical Edition of Padaprak??a / hitherto unpublished commentary / of > / ?ja?a / on / Bhoja's Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a > > The thesis submitted for Ph.D. degree / of / Gujurat University, > Ahmedabad. 1984 > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Alessandro Battistini < > alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson >> (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of >> the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the >> Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in >> various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned >> in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across >> it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the >> ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link >> >> . >> >> Best, >> >> Alessandro Battistini >> Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Thu Nov 17 16:57:23 2016 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 17:57:23 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_Rare_commentary_on_Sarasvat=C4=ABka=E1=B9=87=E1=B9=ADh=C4=81bhara=E1=B9=87a?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Andrew. I was trying to find link but didn't manage. All the Best, Victor On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Andrew Ollett wrote: > Note that the dissertation on the Padaprak??a that Victor mentioned is > available here: > > http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/47474 > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:32 AM, victor davella via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: victor davella >> To: Alessandro Battistini >> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:32:48 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rare commentary on Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a >> Dear All, >> >> I have discovered in my files that there is a dissertation on the >> Padaprak??a by ?ja?a, a hitherto unpublished commentary on the >> Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a (ala?k?ra). It appears to be missing in Cahill's >> bibliography, but perhaps I have overlooked something. >> >> The bibliographical details are: >> >> A / Critical Edition of Padaprak??a / hitherto unpublished commentary / >> of / ?ja?a / on / Bhoja's Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a >> >> The thesis submitted for Ph.D. degree / of / Gujurat University, >> Ahmedabad. 1984 >> >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Alessandro Battistini < >> alessandro.battistini at uniroma1.it> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> with the kind help of Lidia Szczepanik (SOAS London) and Jesse Knutson >>> (Hawaii Manoa) I've managed to put together Katsuhiko Kamimura's edition of >>> the little known commentary by Bha??a Narasi?ha on the >>> Sarasvat?ka??h?bhara?a. This edition appeared in the 70s scattered in >>> various issues of hard-to-find Japanese journals. It is not even mentioned >>> in Cahill's otherwise impeccable Annotated Bibliography, and I came across >>> it by mere chance. I hope this might be of some interest for the >>> ?la?k?rikas amongst us. It can be downloaded at this Dropbox link >>> >>> . >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alessandro Battistini >>> Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 17:38:02 2016 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 17:38:02 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_two_artha=C5=9B=C4=81stra_sources?= In-Reply-To: <4D166822-630C-4B86-BA2A-DF35318D21CF@northwestern.edu> Message-ID: Dear Mark, Could the second item be the one whose accurate bibliography is elaborately stated in n. 49 of von Hin?ber's 2005 article on bh?micchidrany?ya ? Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths www.jstor.org www.jstor.org Title: Der bh?micchidrany?ya Created Date: 20160807204254Z ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Mark McClish Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:54 PM To: indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources Dear friends, I?m having trouble locating two sources on artha??stra, and I hoped someone on the list might be able to help me. I give here the bibliographic information as I have it. 1. Ruben, W. 1929. Study in the Artha??stra. Dharwar. (This is cited in Sternbach?s Bibliography of Kau?ilya Artha??stra, which has a number of errors, as well as, at least, Botto?s article on dvaidh?bh?va in India Maior). Worldcat has the following, but I couldn?t get it from the British Library to see if it is the same: [cid:image002.jpg at 01D23916.8CB595A0] 2. Kavi, Ramakrishna. [title unknown: multiple articles on and text of the C?k?u??ya Artha??stra]. Journal of the Venkatesvara Oriental Institute. 1:79-89; 3:99-116; 4:123-128; 4:129-140; 6:129-140(?). This comes from Kane I p. 152ff. With thanks in advance for any help hunting down any of these. All best, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15412 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 17:53:26 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 23:23:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: English translation of the content provided by Jean Michel Delire from Google translator: The mathematics of the *Vedic* altar Baudh?yana ?ulbas?tra and his commentary ?ulbad?pik? Edited and translated by Jean-Michel DELIRE, Preface by Pierre-Sylvain FILLIOZAT Oriental Studies ? Extreme As its title indicates, this book offers a translation-edition Baudhayana ?ulbas?tra and its commentary the ?ulbad?pik? composed by Dv?rak?n?tha before the sixteenth century. Part of the ritual literature of India, the ?ulbas?tras are treaties detailing the construction of altars, offering tables, sacred enclosures, etc., necessary to the *Vedic sacrifices*. Dating back to the last centuries before the Christian era, they show that the Indian mathematical knowledge of that time was comparable to the knowledge of contemporary civilizations in substance, but very different in form, revealing its *oral *nature. This edition-translation is accompanied by a detailed introduction situating mathematical knowledge of ancient India in its historical evolution, since the end of the civilization of the Indus to the classical period, and in its ritual context. To do this, the investigation has not only considered the Baudhayana ?ulbas?tra, but it was extended to three other ?ulbas?tras (by Apastamba, Manava and Katyayana) edited and translated (SN Sen and AK Bag, Delhi, 1983) as well as non-translated edition (D. Srinivasachar and VS Narasimhachar, Mysore, 1931) of one of the comments of the Apastamba ?ulbas?tra, through which the ?ulbad?pik? could be dated. (Highlighting mine) On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > I already gave the reason why it is justified to use the word 'Vedic > Mathematics' in reference to S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> Missed to put the word 'Vedic Mathematics' >> >> I wanted to say, >> >> The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in >> reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I >> need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books >> that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random >> search: >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >>> The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the >>> S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken >>> as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the >>> first of the pages that I found through my random search: >>> >>> S'ulba sutras: >>> >>> >>> http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html >>> >>> >>> Chhandas: >>> >>> >>> >>> Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of >>> Pingala Chandas Sutram) Hardcover ? 1 Apr 2014 >>> >>> >>> by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan >>> >>> (Author) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Anci >>> ent-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications >>> Of Vedic Mathematics] Paperback ? 2013 >>> >>> >>> by Kapildev Dwivedi >>> (Author), >>> Shyamlal Singh >>> >>> (Author) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-M >>> athematics/dp/8171248772 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Jean, >>>> >>>> Since you said "Dear Colleagues" >>>> >>>> I am forwarding your message to the list. >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Jean-Michel Delire >>>> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM >>>> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology >>>> To: Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of >>>> the sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never >>>> been called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, >>>> always been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my >>>> recent book http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by >>>> instance. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Jean Michel >>>> >>>> >>>> >Patrick, >>>> > >>>> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>>> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include >>>> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type >>>> of >>>> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>> > >>>> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques >>>> book >>>> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the >>>> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the >>>> latter >>>> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic >>>> because it >>>> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called >>>> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the >>>> >Vedas. >>>> > >>>> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> >>>> >wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? >>>> means >>>> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile >>>> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the >>>> science >>>> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. >>>> (Highlighting >>>> >> mine) >>>> >> >>>> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture >>>> would have >>>> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary >>>> quantifiers >>>> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' >>>> of >>>> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know >>>> how to >>>> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do >>>> what >>>> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making >>>> learnt >>>> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do >>>> what they >>>> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make >>>> their >>>> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some >>>> may be >>>> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing >>>> or >>>> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), >>>> some >>>> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The >>>> situation >>>> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher >>>> and >>>> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A >>>> mature >>>> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or >>>> >> judgemental about the observed. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? >>>> the >>>> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works >>>> on the >>>> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is >>>> particularly >>>> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >>>> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were >>>> still >>>> >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead of >>>> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of >>>> modernization >>>> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most >>>> practitioners these >>>> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate >>>> horoscopes >>>> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their >>>> predecessors, >>>> >>> at least some, did. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: >>>> ?????. >>>> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS >>>> ?ditions. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney < >>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of >>>> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and >>>> history. My >>>> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious >>>> nature of my >>>> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not >>>> really >>>> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field >>>> work'. >>>> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in >>>> my city, >>>> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and >>>> 'cold >>>> >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to >>>> include trips >>>> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >>>> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a >>>> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and >>>> ?Vedic >>>> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite >>>> tellingly, at >>>> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, >>>> it seems >>>> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture >>>> in the >>>> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in >>>> the Western >>>> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, >>>> some >>>> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and >>>> not others. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the >>>> Western >>>> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >>>> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet >>>> beside Sun >>>> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >>>> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology >>>> is a >>>> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and >>>> indigenous and >>>> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was >>>> created >>>> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the >>>> Greeks, e.g. >>>> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the >>>> model of >>>> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful >>>> image to >>>> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align >>>> their >>>> >>>> values and belief-system to . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just >>>> like in >>>> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The >>>> proponents of >>>> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has >>>> science, it >>>> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, >>>> i.e., a >>>> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning >>>> based on the >>>> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of >>>> the >>>> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they >>>> constructed >>>> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they >>>> use are >>>> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars >>>> do not >>>> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >>>> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims >>>> such as >>>> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the >>>> seemingly more >>>> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Bill M. Mak >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>>> >>>> New York University >>>> >>>> 15 East 84th Street >>>> >>>> New York, NY 10028 >>>> >>>> US >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>>> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>>> >>>> Japan >>>> >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>>> >>>> ??????????? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>>> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>>> >>>> http://www.billmak.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney < >>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the >>>> claim >>>> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >>>> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, >>>> even though >>>> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all assert >>>> it means >>>> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' >>>> part of >>>> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is >>>> overwhelmingly: >>>> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between >>>> the >>>> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >>>> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >>>> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly >>>> differentiate them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>>> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I >>>> include >>>> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this >>>> type of >>>> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an >>>> analysis that >>>> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >>>> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by >>>> premodern, >>>> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really >>>> pin down >>>> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = >>>> 'better'. >>>> >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a >>>> Vedic >>>> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present >>>> and future >>>> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both >>>> micro >>>> >>>> and macro scales of analysis. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" >>> > >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various >>>> phrases >>>> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but >>>> I can't >>>> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. >>>> Dikshit seems to >>>> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical >>>> period, >>>> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present >>>> in >>>> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is >>>> not the one >>>> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable' >>>> that the >>>> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by >>>> the >>>> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if >>>> perhaps not to >>>> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras >>>> are used >>>> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we >>>> have >>>> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves >>>> label all >>>> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', >>>> typically >>>> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular >>>> historical period >>>> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to >>>> a vague, >>>> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of >>>> 'traditional >>>> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only >>>> ancient and >>>> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed >>>> out, >>>> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this >>>> context >>>> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first >>>> appears? >>>> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't >>>> think >>>> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or >>>> have they?). >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Martin >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did >>>> refer to >>>> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of >>>> astrology? under >>>> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things >>>> might have >>>> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have >>>> certainly been >>>> >>>>>> around. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>> managing >>>> >>>>> committee) >>>> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>> options >>>> >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> >>> committee) >>>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>> options or >>>> >>> unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >> >>>> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >> >>>> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >> >>>> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >> >>>> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >-- >>>> >Nagaraj Paturi >>>> > >>>> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> > >>>> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> > >>>> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> > >>>> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:10:26 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 00:40:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Semantic change of Vedic words such as Yajna is well known. The word Yajna underwent a semantic expansion to cover pa?cha mah? yaj?as etc. The word v?da itself underwent a semantic expansion to come to mean something like a field of knowledge : The use of the words such as ?yurv?da is part of such a development. The concept of upav?da connected these fields of knowledge to the v?das . On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:23 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > English translation of the content provided by Jean Michel Delire from > Google translator: > > The mathematics of the *Vedic* altar > > > > Baudh?yana ?ulbas?tra and his commentary ?ulbad?pik? > > > > Edited and translated by Jean-Michel DELIRE, Preface by Pierre-Sylvain > FILLIOZAT > > > > Oriental Studies ? Extreme > > As its title indicates, this book offers a translation-edition Baudhayana > ?ulbas?tra and its commentary the ?ulbad?pik? composed by Dv?rak?n?tha > before the sixteenth century. Part of the ritual literature of India, the > ?ulbas?tras are treaties detailing the construction of altars, offering > tables, sacred enclosures, etc., necessary to the *Vedic sacrifices*. > Dating back to the last centuries before the Christian era, they show that > the Indian mathematical knowledge of that time was comparable to the > knowledge of contemporary civilizations in substance, but very different in > form, revealing its *oral *nature. This edition-translation is > accompanied by a detailed introduction situating mathematical knowledge of > ancient India in its historical evolution, since the end of the > civilization of the Indus to the classical period, and in its ritual > context. To do this, the investigation has not only considered the > Baudhayana ?ulbas?tra, but it was extended to three other ?ulbas?tras (by > Apastamba, Manava and Katyayana) edited and translated (SN Sen and AK Bag, > Delhi, 1983) as well as non-translated edition (D. Srinivasachar and VS > Narasimhachar, Mysore, 1931) of one of the comments of the Apastamba > ?ulbas?tra, through which the ?ulbad?pik? could be dated. > > > (Highlighting mine) > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> I already gave the reason why it is justified to use the word 'Vedic >> Mathematics' in reference to S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Nagaraj Paturi >> wrote: >> >>> Missed to put the word 'Vedic Mathematics' >>> >>> I wanted to say, >>> >>> The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in >>> reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I >>> need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books >>> that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random >>> search: >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi >> > wrote: >>> >>>> The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the >>>> S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken >>>> as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the >>>> first of the pages that I found through my random search: >>>> >>>> S'ulba sutras: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Chhandas: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of >>>> Pingala Chandas Sutram) Hardcover ? 1 Apr 2014 >>>> >>>> >>>> by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan >>>> >>>> (Author) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Anci >>>> ent-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications >>>> Of Vedic Mathematics] Paperback ? 2013 >>>> >>>> >>>> by Kapildev Dwivedi >>>> (Author), >>>> Shyamlal Singh >>>> >>>> (Author) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-M >>>> athematics/dp/8171248772 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Jean, >>>>> >>>>> Since you said "Dear Colleagues" >>>>> >>>>> I am forwarding your message to the list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>> From: Jean-Michel Delire >>>>> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM >>>>> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology >>>>> To: Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of >>>>> the sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never >>>>> been called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, >>>>> always been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my >>>>> recent book http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by >>>>> instance. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Jean Michel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >Patrick, >>>>> > >>>>> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>>>> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I >>>>> include >>>>> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this >>>>> type of >>>>> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>>> > >>>>> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques >>>>> book >>>>> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the >>>>> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas etc. ? If you have the >>>>> latter >>>>> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic >>>>> because it >>>>> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called >>>>> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the >>>>> >Vedas. >>>>> > >>>>> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi < >>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> >>>>> >wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic >>>>> astrology? means >>>>> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or >>>>> mobile >>>>> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the >>>>> science >>>>> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. >>>>> (Highlighting >>>>> >> mine) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture >>>>> would have >>>>> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary >>>>> quantifiers >>>>> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' >>>>> of >>>>> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would >>>>> know how to >>>>> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do >>>>> what >>>>> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making >>>>> learnt >>>>> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do >>>>> what they >>>>> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make >>>>> their >>>>> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some >>>>> may be >>>>> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing >>>>> or >>>>> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), >>>>> some >>>>> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The >>>>> situation >>>>> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with >>>>> higher and >>>>> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A >>>>> mature >>>>> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or >>>>> >> judgemental about the observed. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? >>>>> the >>>>> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly >>>>> works on the >>>>> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is >>>>> particularly >>>>> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian >>>>> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were >>>>> still >>>>> >>> capable of preparing the Pa?c??ga in the traditional ways instead >>>>> of >>>>> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of >>>>> modernization >>>>> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most >>>>> practitioners these >>>>> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate >>>>> horoscopes >>>>> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their >>>>> predecessors, >>>>> >>> at least some, did. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: >>>>> ?????. >>>>> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS >>>>> ?ditions. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney < >>>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role >>>>> of >>>>> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and >>>>> history. My >>>>> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious >>>>> nature of my >>>>> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does >>>>> not really >>>>> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct >>>>> 'field work'. >>>>> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in >>>>> my city, >>>>> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and >>>>> 'cold >>>>> >>> call'. If funds were made available I would certainly aim to >>>>> include trips >>>>> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with >>>>> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Dear Patrick, >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of >>>>> the/a >>>>> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and >>>>> ?Vedic >>>>> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite >>>>> tellingly, at >>>>> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, >>>>> it seems >>>>> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian >>>>> culture in the >>>>> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in >>>>> the Western >>>>> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, >>>>> some >>>>> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and >>>>> not others. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the >>>>> Western >>>>> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic >>>>> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet >>>>> beside Sun >>>>> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the >>>>> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic >>>>> cosmology is a >>>>> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and >>>>> indigenous and >>>>> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was >>>>> created >>>>> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the >>>>> Greeks, e.g. >>>>> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the >>>>> model of >>>>> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful >>>>> image to >>>>> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align >>>>> their >>>>> >>>> values and belief-system to . >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just >>>>> like in >>>>> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The >>>>> proponents of >>>>> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has >>>>> science, it >>>>> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, >>>>> i.e., a >>>>> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning >>>>> based on the >>>>> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of >>>>> the >>>>> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they >>>>> constructed >>>>> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences >>>>> they use are >>>>> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars >>>>> do not >>>>> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as >>>>> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims >>>>> such as >>>>> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the >>>>> seemingly more >>>>> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> Bill M. Mak >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >>>>> >>>> New York University >>>>> >>>> 15 East 84th Street >>>>> >>>> New York, NY 10028 >>>>> >>>> US >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >>>>> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 >>>>> >>>> Japan >>>>> >>>> ?606-8501 ?????????? >>>>> >>>> ??????????? >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >>>>> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at: >>>>> >>>> http://www.billmak.com >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney < >>>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the >>>>> claim >>>>> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely, >>>>> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, >>>>> even though >>>>> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part) almost all >>>>> assert it means >>>>> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' >>>>> part of >>>>> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is >>>>> overwhelmingly: >>>>> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between >>>>> the >>>>> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel >>>>> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be >>>>> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly >>>>> differentiate them. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's >>>>> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I >>>>> include >>>>> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this >>>>> type of >>>>> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an >>>>> analysis that >>>>> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague, >>>>> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by >>>>> premodern, >>>>> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really >>>>> pin down >>>>> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = >>>>> 'better'. >>>>> >>>> However, I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a >>>>> Vedic >>>>> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present >>>>> and future >>>>> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at >>>>> both micro >>>>> >>>> and macro scales of analysis. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" < >>>>> martin.gansten at pbhome.se> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various >>>>> phrases >>>>> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), >>>>> but I can't >>>>> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. >>>>> Dikshit seems to >>>>> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical >>>>> period, >>>>> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are >>>>> present in >>>>> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is >>>>> not the one >>>>> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it >>>>> 'probable' that the >>>>> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced >>>>> by the >>>>> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if >>>>> perhaps not to >>>>> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras >>>>> are used >>>>> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we >>>>> have >>>>> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves >>>>> label all >>>>> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic', >>>>> typically >>>>> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular >>>>> historical period >>>>> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference >>>>> to a vague, >>>>> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of >>>>> 'traditional >>>>> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only >>>>> ancient and >>>>> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed >>>>> out, >>>>> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this >>>>> context >>>>> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation >>>>> first appears? >>>>> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't >>>>> think >>>>> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or >>>>> have they?). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did >>>>> refer to >>>>> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of >>>>> astrology? under >>>>> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). >>>>> Things might have >>>>> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have >>>>> certainly been >>>>> >>>>>> around. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >>>>> managing >>>>> >>>>> committee) >>>>> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>> options >>>>> >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> >>> committee) >>>>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>> options or >>>>> >>> unsubscribe) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >> >>>>> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal >>>>> Education, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >-- >>>>> >Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> > >>>>> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> > >>>>> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> > >>>>> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> > >>>>> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>>> >>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>>> >>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>>> >>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>>> >>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nagaraj Paturi >>>> >>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>>> >>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>>> >>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>>> >>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nagaraj Paturi >>> >>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >>> >>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >>> >>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >>> >>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:17:42 2016 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 16 14:17:42 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas Message-ID: Dear List, I have undertaken a study of the Usas hymns in the Rgveda, under the illuminating guidance especially of Louis Renou [EVP 3]. Renou mentions there an article in JRAS 1932 by Macdonell which translates the Usas hymns of the RV. Since Macdonell has expressed great respect for these hymns : "Usas is the most graceful creation of Vedic poetry and there is no more charming figure in the descriptive religious lyrics of any other literature", I ask list members for help in getting access to this article. Best wishes, George Thompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:30:51 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 10:00:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Macdonell's translation of one of the Ushas hymns is in the Vedic reader by him. On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:47 AM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > I have undertaken a study of the Usas hymns in the Rgveda, under the > illuminating guidance especially of Louis Renou [EVP 3]. Renou mentions > there an article in JRAS 1932 by Macdonell which translates the Usas hymns > of the RV. Since Macdonell has expressed great respect for these hymns : > "Usas is the most graceful creation of Vedic poetry and there is no more > charming figure in the descriptive religious lyrics of any other > literature", I ask list members for help in getting access to this article. > > Best wishes, > > George Thompson > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:40:35 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 10:10:35 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 18/11/16 Dear George, I do not have the paper with me but I could mention a very useful introduction to Ushas by Macdonell in A Vedic Reader for Students Oxf.1917: 92-93. This book has been reprinted Best Dipak On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:47 AM, George Thompson wrote: > Dear List, > > I have undertaken a study of the Usas hymns in the Rgveda, under the > illuminating guidance especially of Louis Renou [EVP 3]. Renou mentions > there an article in JRAS 1932 by Macdonell which translates the Usas hymns > of the RV. Since Macdonell has expressed great respect for these hymns : > "Usas is the most graceful creation of Vedic poetry and there is no more > charming figure in the descriptive religious lyrics of any other > literature", I ask list members for help in getting access to this article. > > Best wishes, > > George Thompson > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 05:12:46 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 10:42:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sinhala half nasal plus m In-Reply-To: <009601d1ef1d$20bf19e0$623d4da0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Colleague, Between the nasal vowel eg in French ?en? and the velar n one has anusv?ra written with a dot over m. The nasal as I learned was represented by a wave above the vowel. Unicode does not furnish the letters. One has to improvise. I use them in MSWord for printing. But they are not Unicode compliant Best DB On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > Dear list members, > > there is one Sinhala sign consisting of a half-nasal with following ba, > > like in a-m-ba (mango). > > > > Unicode has a half-nasal for n, e. g. pa?dita. > > But I could not figure out the corresponding sign for the half-nasal m. > > Since the anusvara ? is also frequent in Sinhala, I am using ? for > transcribing the half nasal m, e. g. a?ba. > > > > My work does not allow the composition of signs with the help of an > additional accent. > > > > Anyone came across the Unicode-standard for he half nasal of m? > > > > Best > > > > Rolf Heinrich Koch > > > > > > > > > > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 05:13:47 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 10:43:47 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is here and here . On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > 18/11/16 > Dear George, > I do not have the paper with me but I could mention a very useful > introduction to Ushas by Macdonell in A Vedic Reader for Students > Oxf.1917: 92-93. This book has been reprinted > Best > Dipak > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:47 AM, George Thompson > wrote: > > Dear List, > > > > I have undertaken a study of the Usas hymns in the Rgveda, under the > > illuminating guidance especially of Louis Renou [EVP 3]. Renou mentions > > there an article in JRAS 1932 by Macdonell which translates the Usas > hymns > > of the RV. Since Macdonell has expressed great respect for these hymns : > > "Usas is the most graceful creation of Vedic poetry and there is no more > > charming figure in the descriptive religious lyrics of any other > > literature", I ask list members for help in getting access to this > article. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 05:18:40 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 10:48:40 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: His translation of all the Ushas hymns seems to have got published as a book. To buy: https://www.amazon.com/Usas-Hymns-Rgveda-Macdonell/dp/B01L3FIO7Q To read or download: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25194506?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > It is here > > and here > . > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> 18/11/16 >> Dear George, >> I do not have the paper with me but I could mention a very useful >> introduction to Ushas by Macdonell in A Vedic Reader for Students >> Oxf.1917: 92-93. This book has been reprinted >> Best >> Dipak >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:47 AM, George Thompson >> wrote: >> > Dear List, >> > >> > I have undertaken a study of the Usas hymns in the Rgveda, under the >> > illuminating guidance especially of Louis Renou [EVP 3]. Renou mentions >> > there an article in JRAS 1932 by Macdonell which translates the Usas >> hymns >> > of the RV. Since Macdonell has expressed great respect for these hymns >> : >> > "Usas is the most graceful creation of Vedic poetry and there is no more >> > charming figure in the descriptive religious lyrics of any other >> > literature", I ask list members for help in getting access to this >> article. >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > George Thompson >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> > committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or >> > unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 05:52:07 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 11:22:07 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This turns out to be an offprint of the article mentioned by Prof. George Thompson. http://biblio.co.uk/book/usas-hymns-rgveda-aa-macdonell/d/857786086 says, Royal Asiatic Society. April, 1932, London, 1932. *First Edition*. Softcover. Very Good Condition. Octavo (14.5 x 22 cms approx). 27 Pages. Original printed wrappers as issued. *Scarce*. The condition will reflect the fragile and ephemeral format of the production; very good overall. This is a Publisher's Offprint, not an extract or a reprint. An offprint is produced by the publisher's of journals in very small quantities, with the usual intention of allowing the author to present them to friends or colleagues and for review. The printing is done simultaneously with the main journal, and then they are bound up in specially printed wrappers with the author's name and title printed. They are considered quite collectable and desirable due to their intimate connection to the author of the work, rather than the more mass produced nature of the full journal. PLEASE NOTE: This is not a reprint or an extract, it is an Offprint. Size: Octavo (standard book size). Multiple copies available this title. Quantity Available: 3. Category: Royal Asiatic Society Offprints; Pamphlet; Inventory No: 139124. . On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > His translation of all the Ushas hymns seems to have got published as a > book. > > To buy: > > https://www.amazon.com/Usas-Hymns-Rgveda-Macdonell/dp/B01L3FIO7Q > > To read or download: > > https://www.jstor.org/stable/25194506?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> It is here >> >> and here >> . >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya < >> dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> 18/11/16 >>> Dear George, >>> I do not have the paper with me but I could mention a very useful >>> introduction to Ushas by Macdonell in A Vedic Reader for Students >>> Oxf.1917: 92-93. This book has been reprinted >>> Best >>> Dipak >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:47 AM, George Thompson >>> wrote: >>> > Dear List, >>> > >>> > I have undertaken a study of the Usas hymns in the Rgveda, under the >>> > illuminating guidance especially of Louis Renou [EVP 3]. Renou >>> mentions >>> > there an article in JRAS 1932 by Macdonell which translates the Usas >>> hymns >>> > of the RV. Since Macdonell has expressed great respect for these >>> hymns : >>> > "Usas is the most graceful creation of Vedic poetry and there is no >>> more >>> > charming figure in the descriptive religious lyrics of any other >>> > literature", I ask list members for help in getting access to this >>> article. >>> > >>> > Best wishes, >>> > >>> > George Thompson >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > INDOLOGY mailing list >>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> > committee) >>> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or >>> > unsubscribe) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.pasedach at googlemail.com Fri Nov 18 07:57:30 2016 From: peter.pasedach at googlemail.com (Peter Mukunda Pasedach) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 08:57:30 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Allesandro, Muzaffar Ahmad told me that Muhammad Din Fauq, author of Complete History of Kashmir (in Urdu), identifies the author of this chronicle with the Ratn?kara who was associated with the court of Avantivarman. Best, Peter On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Alessandro Battistini wrote: > Dear Peter, > > Thank you for the intriguing reference about the Ratn?kara Pur??a. But the > papers on Archive seem not to associate this Pandit Ratn?kara with the > author of the Haravijaya. Is it just a mere assumption based on the title of > the chronicle? Could you point me to any other consistent sources, if they > exist? > Best > > Alessandro Battistini > Gonda fellow, IIAS Leiden > > 2016-11-17 7:49 GMT+01:00 Peter Mukunda Pasedach via INDOLOGY > : >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ---------- Messaggio inoltrato ---------- >> From: Peter Mukunda Pasedach >> To: alakendu das >> Cc: indology at list.indology.info >> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:49:14 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] RAJTARANGINI >> Dear Alakendu Das, >> >> To Ratn?kara, 9th century Kashmir, author of the Haravijaya, is >> attributed a chronicle of the kings of Kashmir, possibly only >> surviving in fragments of translations into Persian and Urdu. See the >> following blog post of Vinayak Razdan, >> http://www.searchkashmir.org/2014/06/hasan-shah-and-lost-kings-of.html >> , and, linked from there, scans of two articles of Pandit Ananda Koul >> in the Journal and Proceedings of the Asiatic Society of Bengal from >> early 20th century, https://archive.org/details/HasansHistoryOfKashmir >> . I was made aware of it by Muzaffar Ahmad, >> https://independent.academia.edu/MuzaffarAhmad , who is working on it. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Peter Pasedach >> >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:54 AM, alakendu das >> wrote: >> > >> > If anybody may kindly enlighten me on the existence of any medieval >> > composition on any Historical context on India ,prior to RAJTARANGINI? >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> > committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> > unsubscribe) >> >> > From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 12:58:58 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 07:58:58 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs Message-ID: Dear list members, In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing it in two glyphs. This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swright at nalandauniv.edu.in Fri Nov 18 13:33:30 2016 From: swright at nalandauniv.edu.in (Samuel Wright) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 19:03:30 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PDF_of_'Sah=C4=81numara=E1=B9=87aviveka_of_Anantar=C4=81ma'_(Calcutta,_1979)?= Message-ID: Dear List, Might anyone have a PDF of: Derrett, JDM (ed.). 'Sah?numara?aviveka of Anantar?ma' in* Our heritage: bulletin of the Department of Post-Graduate Training and Research*, Sanskrit College, Calcutta: special number: 150th anniversary volume, 1824-1974, Calcutta, 1979 / [edited by Bishnupada Bhattacharya] The copy at the Center for Research Libraries (Chicago) is lost and I don?t see this in the Digital Library of India. Many thanks, Sam Rajgir -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gthomgt at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:49:13 2016 From: gthomgt at gmail.com (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 11:49:13 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Macdonell on Usas Message-ID: Dear List, I would like to thank everyone who has responded to my request, from Christophe Vielle, the first, to Nagaraj Paturi, the most recent. Best wishes to you all. George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scharfpm7 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:57:53 2016 From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 22:27:53 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list members, The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software - TranscodeFile (Java program) which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* available at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the issues comprehensively. Yours, Peter On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a single > glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing it in > two glyphs. > > This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. > > For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital > library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the > same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" > http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html > combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. > So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated > word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either > GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- ******************* Peter M. Scharf scharfpm7 at g mail.com ******************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Nov 18 17:01:16 2016 From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 18:01:16 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two PhD positions from 1 January 2017 for 4 years In-Reply-To: <20150712165548.Horde.dU7QQlCGuPAU74nk3dM931s@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <20161118180116.Horde.TSBxQXsQl4ocGWF0_hUPsfI@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Colleagues, Information passed on for your kind Information. These 2 positions on "Otiose Leisure in Contemporary Indian Fiction" are Directed by Monika Fludernik, English Department, University of Freiburg, Germany in cooperation with the Heidelberg department of South Asian Studies (Professors Axel Michaels and Hans Harder). Attached please find all the details for prospective candidates. Write to sekretariat.fludernik at anglistik.uni-freiburg.de for any further information you might require. With best wishes, Jay Soni (formerly University of Marburg, Germany) -- From soni at staff.uni-marburg.de Fri Nov 18 17:12:42 2016 From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de (soni at staff.uni-marburg.de) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 18:12:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two PhD positions from 1 January 2017 for 4 years In-Reply-To: <20161118180116.Horde.TSBxQXsQl4ocGWF0_hUPsfI@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <20161118181242.Horde.1xz-ifs1g_qVf-aVef5ZRwT@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Sorry, Here is the attachment. ----- Message from soni at staff.uni-marburg.de --------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:01:16 +0100 From: soni at staff.uni-marburg.de Subject: Two PhD positions from 1 January 2017 for 4 years To: indology , INDOLOGIE , risa-l Cc: Monika Fludernik > Dear Colleagues, > Information passed on for your kind Information. > > These 2 positions on "Otiose Leisure in Contemporary Indian Fiction" > are Directed by Monika Fludernik, English Department, University of > Freiburg, Germany in cooperation with the Heidelberg department of > South Asian Studies (Professors Axel Michaels and Hans Harder). > > Attached please find all the details for prospective candidates. > Write to sekretariat.fludernik at anglistik.uni-freiburg.de > for any further information you might require. > > With best wishes, > Jay Soni > (formerly University of Marburg, Germany) > > > -- ----- End message from soni at staff.uni-marburg.de ----- -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ABSTRACTOtioseLeisureinContemporaryIndianFiction.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 63113 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:13:20 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 12:13:20 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) Message-ID: <9068F9A5-611D-4341-8510-30168C7CF0D9@gmail.com> Dear colleagues, A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar object? Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. Sphujidhvaja in his Yavanaj?taka gave dhanus, dhanurdhara and dhavin. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term tauk?ika (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? Best regards, Bill -- Bill M. Mak, PhD Visiting research scholar Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Associate Professor Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:33:17 2016 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 12:33:17 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Unicode standards treat certain precomposed characters as equivalent to certain sequences of uncomposed characters. It's considered good practice to implement this equivalence in applications by "normalizing" unicode strings: Google, as far as I can tell, treats "s?akti" (uncomposed) and "?akti" (composed) as equivalent. Because Indologists usually use precomposed characters, most applications don't bother. But maybe it will be worth implementing equivalence in the search functions of SARIT and other applications. (Are there other resources, besides the online transcoder at the Sanskrit Library, that use uncomposed characters?) On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf wrote: > Dear list members, > The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at > http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to > Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus > diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software > > - TranscodeFile (Java program) > > > which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has > a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using > precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with > searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why > Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all > our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and > searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired > (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are > preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* available > at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the issues > comprehensively. > > Yours, > Peter > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> >> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >> it in two glyphs. >> >> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >> >> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either >> GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > ******************* > Peter M. Scharf > scharfpm7 at g mail.com > ******************* > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:09:21 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 23:39:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) In-Reply-To: <9068F9A5-611D-4341-8510-30168C7CF0D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Image search yielded the word Saura pITha and 13 th Century as time period and Andhra Pradesh as place. https://www.flickr.com/photos/301202/15265329686 On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of > dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I > came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. > Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: > http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 > > Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar > object? > > Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. > Sphujidhvaja in his *Yavanaj?taka* gave *dhanus*, *dhanurdhara *and > *dhavin*. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term > *tauk?ika* (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian > languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? > > Best regards, > > Bill > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:20:05 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 23:50:05 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://tamilnadu-favtourism.blogspot.in/2015/11/gangaikonda-cholapuram-sculptures.html has under Gangaikonda Cholapuram - Sculptures The Solar Altar The solar altar called Saura pitha in agamic texts is in the form of a full blown lotus on a square pedestal in two tiers. The upper tier carries eight deities portrayed at eight directions. They are considered the eight planets, which, including the central lotus representing Surya (sun) constitute the Navagrahas, (nine planets) worshipped by the Hindus for the bestowal of good fortune and the removal of obstacles. The lower tier is modelled as a chariot with wheels on either side, drawn by seven horses. Aruna the Charioteer of Surya is shown driving the horses. The seven horses are said to represent the seven days of the week. The wheels are ornamented with twelve petals, representing the twelve months of a year. At the corners are seen flying celestials, gandharvas carrying flower garlands. The Agamic texts specify the worship of Surya in the form of a lotus altar. Evidently this is a representation of Saura pitha, solar altar, intended for daily worship. This elegant piece is also decidedly a Chalukyan sculpture, probably brought here as a war trophy. In recent years, it has assumed great significance as a large number of devotees worship it as Navagraha for the fulfillment of their vows. When the planet Saturn changes its position once in 27 months, nearly a million people offer worship to this altar. Rajendra Chola-I (1012-1044 A.D) is also called Gangaikonda Cholan . ( http://www.kumbakonam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=184 ) On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Image search yielded the word Saura pITha and 13 th Century as time > period and Andhra Pradesh as place. > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/301202/15265329686 > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Bill Mak wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of >> dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I >> came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. >> Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: >> http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 >> >> Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar >> object? >> >> Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. >> Sphujidhvaja in his *Yavanaj?taka* gave *dhanus*, *dhanurdhara *and >> *dhavin*. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term >> *tauk?ika* (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian >> languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Bill >> >> -- >> Bill M. Mak, PhD >> >> Visiting research scholar >> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> New York University >> 15 East 84th Street >> New York, NY 10028 >> US >> >> Associate Professor >> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> ??????????? >> >> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >> copies of my publications may be found at: >> http://www.billmak.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kiepue at t-online.de Fri Nov 18 18:21:58 2016 From: kiepue at t-online.de (=?utf-8?Q?Petra_Kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 19:21:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0FCE07DC-9382-4DB7-A758-42924F09E774@t-online.de> > Am 18.11.2016 um 19:20 schrieb Nagaraj Paturi : > > http://tamilnadu-favtourism.blogspot.in/2015/11/gangaikonda-cholapuram-sculptures.html > > has under > > Gangaikonda Cholapuram - Sculptures > The Solar Altar > The solar altar called Saura pitha in agamic texts is in the form of a full blown lotus on a square pedestal in two tiers. The upper tier carries eight deities portrayed at eight directions. They are considered the eight planets, which, including the central lotus representing Surya (sun) constitute the Navagrahas, (nine planets) worshipped by the Hindus for the bestowal of good fortune and the removal of obstacles. The lower tier is modelled as a chariot with wheels on either side, drawn by seven horses. Aruna the Charioteer of Surya is shown driving the horses. The seven horses are said to represent the seven days of the week. The wheels are ornamented with twelve petals, representing the twelve months of a year. At the corners are seen flying celestials, gandharvas carrying flower garlands. > The Agamic texts specify the worship of Surya in the form of a lotus altar. Evidently this is a representation of Saura pitha, solar altar, intended for daily worship. This elegant piece is also decidedly a Chalukyan sculpture, probably brought here as a war trophy. In recent years, it has assumed great significance as a large number of devotees worship it as Navagraha for the fulfillment of their vows. When the planet Saturn changes its position once in 27 months, nearly a million people offer worship to this altar. > Rajendra Chola-I (1012-1044 A.D) is also called Gangaikonda Cholan . (http://www.kumbakonam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=184 ) > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > Image search yielded the word Saura pITha and 13 th Century as time period and Andhra Pradesh as place. > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/301202/15265329686 > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Bill Mak > wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: > http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 > > Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar object? > > Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. Sphujidhvaja in his Yavanaj?taka gave dhanus, dhanurdhara and dhavin. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term tauk?ika (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? > > Best regards, > > Bill > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu Fri Nov 18 19:46:58 2016 From: mark.mcclish at northwestern.edu (Mark McClish) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 19:46:58 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_two_artha=C5=9B=C4=81stra_sources?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Arlo, I believe those references are to the Artha??stra commentaries Jayama?gal? and C??akya??k?. The C?k?u??ya is supposed to be an independent work. I have since found the following entry in Singh?s Bibliography of Kautiliya Arthasastra: 459. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. "Caksusiya." Journal of Sri Venkatesvara Oriental Institute, Vol. 4, Part 1, 1943, pp. 123-128, Vol. 6, Part 2, pp. 33-53. 460. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. " Chakshushiya: an ancient work on Arthasastra." Annals of Sri Venkatesvara Oriental Institute, Vol. 1, part 4, 1940, pp. 79-89. Does anyone know where these might be available online? All best, Mark On Nov 17, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Arlo Griffiths > wrote: Dear Mark, Could the second item be the one whose accurate bibliography is elaborately stated in n. 49 of von Hin?ber's 2005 article on bh?micchidrany?ya >? Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths www.jstor.org www.jstor.org Title: Der bh?micchidrany?ya Created Date: 20160807204254Z ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Mark McClish > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:54 PM To: indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources Dear friends, I?m having trouble locating two sources on artha??stra, and I hoped someone on the list might be able to help me. I give here the bibliographic information as I have it. 1. Ruben, W. 1929. Study in the Artha??stra. Dharwar. (This is cited in Sternbach?s Bibliography of Kau?ilya Artha??stra, which has a number of errors, as well as, at least, Botto?s article on dvaidh?bh?va in India Maior). Worldcat has the following, but I couldn?t get it from the British Library to see if it is the same: 2. Kavi, Ramakrishna. [title unknown: multiple articles on and text of the C?k?u??ya Artha??stra]. Journal of the Venkatesvara Oriental Institute. 1:79-89; 3:99-116; 4:123-128; 4:129-140; 6:129-140(?). This comes from Kane I p. 152ff. With thanks in advance for any help hunting down any of these. All best, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 20:37:08 2016 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 21:37:08 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) In-Reply-To: <9068F9A5-611D-4341-8510-30168C7CF0D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Bill, The image you have found is illustrated in: Desai, Kalpana. With contributions by B.V. Shetti and Manisha Nene. Assisted by Vandana Prapanna. (2002). Jewels on the Crescent. Masterpieces of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya formerly Prince of Wales Museum of Western India. Mumbai: CSMVS, in association with Mapin Publishing, Ahmedabad. Item 49, page 56. See here . Discussed page 250.With reference to a contribution by B.V. Shetti, "Saura-Pitha or the Solar Alatar in Indian Numismatics", pp. 335-339. In: Gupta, P. L., MacDowall, D. W., Sharma, S., & Garg, S. (1992). *Indian numismatics, history, art, and culture: Essays in the honour of Dr. P.L. Gupta*. Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan. And see The Madras Tamil Lexicon about Sagittarius here . With very best wishes. -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis 2016-11-18 18:13 GMT+01:00 Bill Mak : > Dear colleagues, > > A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of > dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I > came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. > Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: > http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 > > Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar > object? > > Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. > Sphujidhvaja in his *Yavanaj?taka* gave *dhanus*, *dhanurdhara *and > *dhavin*. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term > *tauk?ika* (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian > languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? > > Best regards, > > Bill > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 22:58:54 2016 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 17:58:54 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <861D9B68-7D52-4514-88FF-F2D97C3E4B69@gmail.com> Thank you, Manu, for providing exactly what I needed! The piece is confirmed to be in Andhra Pradesh, dated from 12th century AD. At least one similar specimen is kept in the Telangana State Archaeology Museum in Hyderabad. The frieze on the side depicts the a??adikp?las. Thus the iconography of both time and space (with possible correlation) are combined in this piece. Thanks also to Nagaraj for the comments, and to Matthew Kapstein and Corinna Wessels-Mevissen for providing me additional materials and remarks offline. >From what I can tell so far, modern Indian languages (Hindi, Telugu, Tamil) adopted the dhanus (bow) reading rather than the one of dhanurdhara/dhanvin (bowman). Best, Bill -- Bill M. Mak Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) New York University 15 East 84th Street New York, NY 10028 US Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 Japan ?606-8501 ?????????? ??????????? Tel:+81-75-753-6961 Fax:+81-75-753-6903 copies of my publications may be found at: http://www.billmak.com > On Nov 18, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Manu Francis wrote: > > Dear Bill, > > The image you have found is illustrated in: > Desai, Kalpana. With contributions by B.V. Shetti and Manisha Nene. Assisted by Vandana Prapanna. (2002). Jewels on the Crescent. Masterpieces of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya formerly Prince of Wales Museum of Western India. Mumbai: CSMVS, in association with Mapin Publishing, Ahmedabad. > > Item 49, page 56. See here . > Discussed page 250.With reference to a contribution by B.V. Shetti, "Saura-Pitha or the Solar Alatar in Indian Numismatics", pp. 335-339. In: Gupta, P. L., MacDowall, D. W., Sharma, S., & Garg, S. (1992). Indian numismatics, history, art, and culture: Essays in the honour of Dr. P.L. Gupta. Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan. > > And see The Madras Tamil Lexicon about Sagittarius here . > > With very best wishes. > > -- > > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis > > 2016-11-18 18:13 GMT+01:00 Bill Mak >: > Dear colleagues, > > A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: > http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 > > Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar object? > > Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. Sphujidhvaja in his Yavanaj?taka gave dhanus, dhanurdhara and dhavin. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term tauk?ika (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? > > Best regards, > > Bill > > -- > Bill M. Mak, PhD > > Visiting research scholar > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Associate Professor > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 01:11:29 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 06:41:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) In-Reply-To: <861D9B68-7D52-4514-88FF-F2D97C3E4B69@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, you are right. I never saw a dhanvi kind of usages in specific reference to the r??i. . The most prominent, popular, day to day use of the word dhanus here in south India is as in the compound dhanurm?sa. The period from 15th December to 15th January is called dhanurm?sa. More precisely, the one month period ending with makarasankrama?am/ makarasankr?nti is called dhanurm?sam in Telugu. It is the period during which ?n??l? , the composer of tirupp?vai is performed her p?vu , month long Vi??u- worshipping vow-bound Bhakti-rituals. Devotees re-enact the rituals by waking up during the early hours of this peak winter season. On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 4:28 AM, Bill Mak wrote: > Thank you, Manu, for providing exactly what I needed! The piece is > confirmed to be in Andhra Pradesh, dated from 12th century AD. At least one > similar specimen is kept in the Telangana State Archaeology Museum in > Hyderabad. The frieze on the side depicts the a??adikp?las. Thus the > iconography of both time and space (with possible correlation) are combined > in this piece. > > Thanks also to Nagaraj for the comments, and to Matthew Kapstein > and Corinna Wessels-Mevissen for providing me additional materials and > remarks offline. > > From what I can tell so far, modern Indian languages (Hindi, Telugu, > Tamil) adopted the *dhanus* (bow) reading rather than the one of > *dhanurdhara/dhanvin* (bowman). > > Best, > > Bill > > -- > Bill M. Mak > > Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) > New York University > 15 East 84th Street > New York, NY 10028 > US > > Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University > Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501 > Japan > ?606-8501 ?????????? > ??????????? > > Tel:+81-75-753-6961 > Fax:+81-75-753-6903 > > copies of my publications may be found at: > http://www.billmak.com > > On Nov 18, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Manu Francis wrote: > > Dear Bill, > > The image you have found is illustrated in: > > Desai, Kalpana. With contributions by B.V. Shetti and Manisha Nene. > Assisted by Vandana Prapanna. (2002). Jewels on the Crescent. Masterpieces > of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya formerly Prince of > Wales Museum of Western India. Mumbai: CSMVS, in association with Mapin > Publishing, Ahmedabad. > Item 49, page 56. See here > > . > Discussed page 250.With reference to a contribution by B.V. Shetti, > "Saura-Pitha or the Solar Alatar in Indian Numismatics", pp. 335-339. In: > Gupta, P. L., MacDowall, D. W., Sharma, S., & Garg, S. (1992). *Indian > numismatics, history, art, and culture: Essays in the honour of Dr. P.L. > Gupta*. Delhi: Agam Kala Prakashan. > > And see The Madras Tamil Lexicon about Sagittarius here > > . > > With very best wishes. > > -- > > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, > Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis > > 2016-11-18 18:13 GMT+01:00 Bill Mak : > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> A colleague of mine is looking for a high-resolution image of >> dhanus/dhavin (Sagittarius) in Indian sculpture, mural or manuscript. I >> came across an image from the internet which gives the description: "C. >> Saura Sect of Hinduism. Zodiac Wheel. Dolerite. Andhra Pradesh, India?: >> http://www.billmak.com/?attachment_id=1924 >> >> Could anyone confirm the provenance of this piece or any other similar >> object? >> >> Textually, I am also curious about the variants dhanu/dhanvin. >> Sphujidhvaja in his *Yavanaj?taka* gave *dhanus*, *dhanurdhara *and >> *dhavin*. Var?hamihira in addition gave the Sanskritized greek term >> *tauk?ika* (from ???????). I am curious which form the modern Indian >> languages took - the bow, the archer/centaur or both? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Bill >> >> -- >> Bill M. Mak, PhD >> >> Visiting research scholar >> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW) >> New York University >> 15 East 84th Street >> New York, NY 10028 >> US >> >> Associate Professor >> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University >> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501 >> ?606-8501 ?????????? >> ??????????? >> >> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp >> Tel:+81-75-753-6961 >> Fax:+81-75-753-6903 >> >> copies of my publications may be found at: >> http://www.billmak.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 01:23:06 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 16 20:23:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've just looked at the Sanskrit Library, SARIT and GRETIL texts and I see that these use IAST transliteration for anusvara (dot under m) while Muktabodha digital library uses ISO15919 for anusvara (dot on top of m). Harry Spier On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf wrote: > Dear list members, > The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at > http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to > Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus > diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software > > - TranscodeFile (Java program) > > > which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has > a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using > precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with > searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why > Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all > our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and > searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired > (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are > preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* available > at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the issues > comprehensively. > > Yours, > Peter > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> >> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >> it in two glyphs. >> >> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >> >> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either >> GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > ******************* > Peter M. Scharf > scharfpm7 at g mail.com > ******************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scharfpm7 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 05:13:00 2016 From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 10:43:00 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, I forwarded your question about TITUS text search to Jost Gippert. The Sanskrit Library texts include all the TITUS texts as of the time of our collaborative project ending in 2009. In addition these texts include the grammatical texts of the NEH-funded projects headed by George Cardona 1990-1993 and a few others. The Sanskrit Library search facility is now a literal search of the input string converted to SLP of the source (also in SLP) of the Unicode HTML. Highlighting of found matches appears in the Unicode HTML. This manner of conducting the search is highly reliable and free of the ambiguities you described due to the variety of encodings available with and without precomposition of diacritics. We do not yet offer lemmatized searching or search across all texts, though we aim to develop this facility in due course. Yours, Peter ************************* Peter M. Scharf scharfpm7 at gmail.com ************************* > On 19 Nov 2016, at 6:23 AM, Harry Spier wrote: > > Thank you Peter for your detailed response. > > I've just looked at the Sanskrit Library text library and I see they are the TITUS texts and that TITUS has a search engine. When you use the search engine to search "all texts" does that cover the publically available texts or the entire database? > Thanks, > Harry > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf > wrote: > Dear list members, > The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software > TranscodeFile (Java program) > which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are preferable). Our book Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit available at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the issues comprehensively. > > Yours, > Peter > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > Dear list members, > > In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing it in two glyphs. > > This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. > > For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html > combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. > So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated word such as for example: s?a?kti and then searched texts from either GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > ******************* > Peter M. Scharf > scharfpm7 at g mail.com > ******************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:17:31 2016 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 19:17:31 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padma Purana Message-ID: Dear friends, has anyone worked (or is anyone working) on the * Padma-purana?* I'm looking for some informations on the themes/myths that are debated witin the text. Best, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati Oriental Archaeologist PhD candidate in "Civilizations of Asia and Africa" South Asia Section Dep. Italian Institute of Oriental Studies/ISO 'Sapienza' University of Rome *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ * paoloe.rosati at uniroma1.it paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Skype: paoloe.rosati Mobile: (+39) 338 73 83 472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:55:17 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 11:55:17 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= Message-ID: Dear Bob and all, Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* 1.2.14, I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert P. Goldman, 1984) What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this is in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated in language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as (*V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been Sanskritized from an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as (*Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the > decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki > R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the > publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume > VII: Uttarak???a* > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. > Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South > and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sat Nov 19 20:02:22 2016 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 20:02:22 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047BDC988@xm-mbx-06-prod> Dear David, Bob is of course best able to respond in the case of R?m?ya?a, but my impression is that the post-Vedic use of the aorist is not so rare as you suggest. A good example to consider is A?vagho?a, particularly in Saundarananda, in which he displays his virtuosity in the conjugation systems by making plentiful use of unusual aorist forms. In k?vya I rather doubt that this alone can be taken as evidence of antiquity. Rather, the aorist seems to be deliberately employed to display erudition. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 21:10:18 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 14:10:18 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047BDC988@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: Dear Matthew, Thanks for this information. I have never read the *Saundarananda*, or for that matter, even the k?vyas of K?lid?sa. However, this case may be a little different. According to the story, R?ma uttered this first ever ?loka spontaneously, upon seeing a male *krau?ca* crane killed by a hunter when in the midst of courtship or mating. So these aorist verbs presumably would have been what he and others then used in speech. They would not have been deliberately employed to display erudition. The specific past sense that the aorist tense signifies was a matter of question in classical Sanskrit. Ramkrishna Gopal Bhandarkar in his 1868 Preface to his *Second Book of Sanskrit* acknowledges this, and says that he read the *Aitareya Br?hma?a* to determine its specific usage when the language was still living. He found that the aorist was there used ?when the persons in the story are represented as speaking with one another,? as we have here in V?lm?ki?s first ?loka. By contrast, writes Bhandarkar, ?In this work, wherever stories are told, the so called Imperfect or the Perfect is always used, and the Aorist never occurs.? So V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, in its usage of the aorist, agrees with the normal usage found in the *Aitareya Br?hma?a*, taken as representative of when the aorist was a still living form. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear David, > > Bob is of course best able to respond in the case of *R?m?ya?a,* but my > impression is that the post-Vedic > use of the aorist is not so rare as you suggest. A good example to > consider is A?vagho?a, particularly in > *Saundarananda*, in which he displays his virtuosity in the conjugation > systems by making plentiful use of unusual > aorist forms. In *k?vya* I rather doubt that this alone can be taken as > evidence of antiquity. Rather, the aorist > seems to be deliberately employed to display erudition. > > best, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 21:46:36 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 16:46:36 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: <82C3E42590D939418C74DD76B97DDED047BDC988@xm-mbx-06-prod> Message-ID: In an old posting on dating the Jyotisa Vedanga http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-March/020863.html Michael Witzel makes two observations 1) that Ramayana book 1 has linguistic characteristics of Late Epic and 2) the difficulties in modernizing sentences in verse. Quoting from the posting: ----------------------------- ......... As I have noticed some years ago (unpublished), this is precisely a feature of LATE Epic. In both texts, Mbh. and Ram., [vedic vai occurs not as usual in slot 2 of a sentence but at the end of a paada] c. 13% of all cases of vai have this characteristic: they occur at the end. And are most common in Mahabharata 12, Ramayana 1 and 7. ........ 2. We can add: The text is composed in Epic Shloka meter which is not exactly a Vedic one (though we have the Vedic Anustubh). Now, its is a well known fact that you cannot change arround or modernize sentences as easily in verse as you can in prose. Note the famous case (Lueders) of the old, eastern forms in stanzas of the Pali canon. ------------------------------ Harry Spier On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > Dear David, > > Bob is of course best able to respond in the case of *R?m?ya?a,* but my > impression is that the post-Vedic > use of the aorist is not so rare as you suggest. A good example to > consider is A?vagho?a, particularly in > *Saundarananda*, in which he displays his virtuosity in the conjugation > systems by making plentiful use of unusual > aorist forms. In *k?vya* I rather doubt that this alone can be taken as > evidence of antiquity. Rather, the aorist > seems to be deliberately employed to display erudition. > > best, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Sat Nov 19 22:27:49 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 12:27:49 -1000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Friends, I think the aorist also imparts a kind of archaic/?r?a-ic feel in these kinds of contexts. It's obvious how this would be relevant for the first verse of all poetry right? And as Michael pointed out, it's not so rare in classical Sanskrit. It just comes across as a little fancy. Best,J On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Harry Spier wrote: > In an old posting on dating the Jyotisa Vedanga > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2000-March/020863.html > Michael Witzel makes two observations > 1) that Ramayana book 1 has linguistic characteristics of Late Epic > and > 2) the difficulties in modernizing sentences in verse. > > Quoting from the posting: > ----------------------------- > ......... > > As I have noticed some years ago (unpublished), this is precisely a feature > of LATE Epic. In both texts, Mbh. and Ram., [vedic vai occurs not as usual in slot 2 of a sentence but at the end of a paada] c. 13% of all cases of vai > have this characteristic: they occur at the end. And are most common in > Mahabharata 12, Ramayana 1 and 7. > > ........ > > 2. We can add: The text is composed in Epic Shloka meter which is not > exactly a Vedic one (though we have the Vedic Anustubh). Now, its is a > well known fact that you cannot change arround or modernize sentences as > easily in verse as you can in prose. Note the famous case (Lueders) of the > old, eastern forms in stanzas of the Pali canon. > > ------------------------------ > > Harry Spier > > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Matthew Kapstein > wrote: > >> Dear David, >> >> Bob is of course best able to respond in the case of *R?m?ya?a,* but my >> impression is that the post-Vedic >> use of the aorist is not so rare as you suggest. A good example to >> consider is A?vagho?a, particularly in >> *Saundarananda*, in which he displays his virtuosity in the conjugation >> systems by making plentiful use of unusual >> aorist forms. In *k?vya* I rather doubt that this alone can be taken as >> evidence of antiquity. Rather, the aorist >> seems to be deliberately employed to display erudition. >> >> best, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:03:19 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 18:03:19 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list members, I've just done a search of the RgVeda, Atharva Veda, Brhadaranyaka-Upanisad and Ramayana book 1 for the particle "ha" and this agrees with what Michael Witzel said about the occurance of "vai" in Ramayana 1 showing that Ramayana book 1 language is Late Epic. In the RgVeda and Atharva veda and the Brhad-Aranyaka the particle "ha" occurs in sentence slot 2 location the majority of times and never at paada final . In Ramayana book 1 the particle "ha" occurs 47 times. 46 of these are at paada end and only 1 in the middle of a sentence. It occurs at paada end 6 times before (the verse David is asking about (1.2.14) and very closely after at 1.2.20 Thanks, Harry On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Jesse Knutson wrote: > Dear Friends, I think the aorist also imparts a kind of archaic/?r?a-ic > feel in these kinds of contexts. It's obvious how this would be relevant > for the first verse of all poetry right? And as Michael pointed out, it's > not so rare in classical Sanskrit. It just comes across as a little fancy. > Best,J > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> In an old posting on dating the Jyotisa Vedanga >> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology. >> info/2000-March/020863.html >> Michael Witzel makes two observations >> 1) that Ramayana book 1 has linguistic characteristics of Late Epic >> and >> 2) the difficulties in modernizing sentences in verse. >> >> Quoting from the posting: >> ----------------------------- >> ......... >> >> As I have noticed some years ago (unpublished), this is precisely a feature >> of LATE Epic. In both texts, Mbh. and Ram., [vedic vai occurs not as usual in slot 2 of a sentence but at the end of a paada] c. 13% of all cases of vai >> have this characteristic: they occur at the end. And are most common in >> Mahabharata 12, Ramayana 1 and 7. >> >> ........ >> >> 2. We can add: The text is composed in Epic Shloka meter which is not >> exactly a Vedic one (though we have the Vedic Anustubh). Now, its is a >> well known fact that you cannot change arround or modernize sentences as >> easily in verse as you can in prose. Note the famous case (Lueders) of the >> old, eastern forms in stanzas of the Pali canon. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Matthew Kapstein >> wrote: >> >>> Dear David, >>> >>> Bob is of course best able to respond in the case of *R?m?ya?a,* but my >>> impression is that the post-Vedic >>> use of the aorist is not so rare as you suggest. A good example to >>> consider is A?vagho?a, particularly in >>> *Saundarananda*, in which he displays his virtuosity in the conjugation >>> systems by making plentiful use of unusual >>> aorist forms. In *k?vya* I rather doubt that this alone can be taken as >>> evidence of antiquity. Rather, the aorist >>> seems to be deliberately employed to display erudition. >>> >>> best, >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew Kapstein >>> Directeur d'?tudes, >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes >>> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >>> The University of Chicago >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Sat Nov 19 23:30:39 2016 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 23:30:39 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ED5ED13-B460-457D-B006-A6647EB9EC33@fas.harvard.edu> Dear Harry and All, the observations about vai (and ha) are part of a larger paper on the Epics: MW, The Vedas and the Epics: Some Comparative Notes on Persons, Lineages, Geography, and Grammar. In: P. Koskikallio (ed.) Epics, Khilas, and Puranas. Continuities and Ruptures. Proceedings of the Third Dubrovnik International Conference on the Sanskrit Epics and Puranas. September 2002. Zagreb: Croatian Academy of Sciences and the Arts 2005: 21-80 See ? 4. for a near-final version, attached. Cheers ! MW On Nov 19, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: Dear list members, I've just done a search of the RgVeda, Atharva Veda, Brhadaranyaka-Upanisad and Ramayana book 1 for the particle "ha" and this agrees with what Michael Witzel said about the occurance of "vai" in Ramayana 1 showing that Ramayana book 1 language is Late Epic. In the RgVeda and Atharva veda and the Brhad-Aranyaka the particle "ha" occurs in sentence slot 2 location the majority of times and never at paada final . In Ramayana book 1 the particle "ha" occurs 47 times. 46 of these are at paada end and only 1 in the middle of a sentence. It occurs at paada end 6 times before (the verse David is asking about (1.2.14) and very closely after at 1.2.20 Thanks, Harry On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Jesse Knutson > wrote: Dear Friends, I think the aorist also imparts a kind of archaic/?r?a-ic feel in these kinds of contexts. It's obvious how this would be relevant for the first verse of all poetry right? And as Michael pointed out, it's not so rare in classical Sanskrit. It just comes across as a little fancy. Best,J On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Harry Spier > wrote: In an old posting on dating the Jyotisa Vedanga http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2000-March/020863.html Michael Witzel makes two observations 1) that Ramayana book 1 has linguistic characteristics of Late Epic and 2) the difficulties in modernizing sentences in verse. Quoting from the posting: ----------------------------- ......... As I have noticed some years ago (unpublished), this is precisely a feature of LATE Epic. In both texts, Mbh. and Ram., [vedic vai occurs not as usual in slot 2 of a sentence but at the end of a paada] c. 13% of all cases of vai have this characteristic: they occur at the end. And are most common in Mahabharata 12, Ramayana 1 and 7. ........ 2. We can add: The text is composed in Epic Shloka meter which is not exactly a Vedic one (though we have the Vedic Anustubh). Now, its is a well known fact that you cannot change arround or modernize sentences as easily in verse as you can in prose. Note the famous case (Lueders) of the old, eastern forms in stanzas of the Pali canon. ------------------------------ Harry Spier On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Matthew Kapstein > wrote: Dear David, Bob is of course best able to respond in the case of R?m?ya?a, but my impression is that the post-Vedic use of the aorist is not so rare as you suggest. A good example to consider is A?vagho?a, particularly in Saundarananda, in which he displays his virtuosity in the conjugation systems by making plentiful use of unusual aorist forms. In k?vya I rather doubt that this alone can be taken as evidence of antiquity. Rather, the aorist seems to be deliberately employed to display erudition. best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VedaEpic-NewFont-MW.doc Type: application/msword Size: 414208 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:13:34 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 01:13:34 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a development in the language here, but one which does not match the available evidence. See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be selected. It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the Southern recension. The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent "polishing" in a much higher degree. Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but this is precisely what is not the case: see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata and www.academia.edu/28515426). E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). Jan Houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Bob and all, > > Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first ?loka > ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* 1.2.14, I > have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago answered > it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. > > > m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | > yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || > > > ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted at > the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert P. > Goldman, 1984) > > > What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* > and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its > augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since aorists > largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all common > in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this is in fact > V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original *R?m?ya?a* that is > considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? Could the *R?m?ya?a* > as now extant have been reworked, updated in language so to speak, from an > earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter in his detailed study, *The > Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali Age* (1913), found considerable > evidence that in the oldest pur??as (*V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the > verses had been Sanskritized from an earlier literary Prakrit, and that > these Sanskrit verses had in turn been condensed and rewritten directly in > Sanskrit in some other pur??as (*Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). > > > Best regards, > > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the >> publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >> >> >> >> >> >> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >> VII: Uttarak???a* >> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. >> Sutherland Goldman >> >> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 >> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >> >> >> Dr. R. P. Goldman >> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >> and Southeast Asian Studies >> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >> The University of California at Berkeley >> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >> Tel: 510-642-4089 >> Fax: 510-642-2409 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:32:45 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 19:32:45 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be called Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". Thanks, Harry Spier On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear David, > "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a > development in the language here, but one which does not match the > available evidence. > See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering > alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual > function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. > Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to > be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical > reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be > selected. > It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this > critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where > most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the > Southern recension. > The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent > "polishing" in a much higher degree. > Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific > "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of > manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but > this is precisely what is not the case: > see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present his > study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more advanced > statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis of a > study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote > mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always > correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's > "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however > be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet > not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata > and www.academia.edu/28515426). > E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his > line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical > editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no > plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time > of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" > (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). > Jan Houben > > > > > > *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* > > Directeur d??tudes > > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > > *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques > > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > www.ephe.fr > > > On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > >> Dear Bob and all, >> >> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first ?loka >> ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* 1.2.14, >> I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago >> answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. >> >> >> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >> >> >> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted at >> the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert P. >> Goldman, 1984) >> >> >> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this is >> in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original *R?m?ya?a* >> that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? Could the >> *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated in language so to >> speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter in his >> detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali Age* >> (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as (*V?yu*, >> *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been Sanskritized from an earlier >> literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn been condensed >> and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as (*Vi??u*, >> *Bh?gavata*). >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> David Reigle >> >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the >>> publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally >>> J. Sutherland Goldman >>> >>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 >>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>> >>> >>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>> The University of California at Berkeley >>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 01:16:43 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 02:16:43 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Les_math=C3=A9matiques_de_l'autel_v=C3=A9dique?= In-Reply-To: <4638582b6ab6b4bf1@wm-srv.ulb.ac.be> Message-ID: Dear Jean-Michel, Congratulations with this publication, the result of many years of hard work, and a significant contribution to Vedic and Sanskrit studies and to the history of mathematics. Jan *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 15 November 2016 at 21:06, Jean-Michel Delire wrote: > Dear list, > > Your discussion reminds me the so-called Vedic mathematics, which are not > Vedic at all. That is the reason why I have myself been very cautious not > to use Vedic directly associated with mathematics in the title of my (just > published) book : Les math?matiques de l'autel v?dique, or Mathematics of > the Vedic Altar (the book is mainly in French). The altar is definitely > vedic, and also the mathematics used to build it and explained in the book, > but they are very different of what is nowadays - and inaccurately - called > Vedic mathematics. If you want more information, see > http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html > > Best regards, > > Jean Michel Delire > > > >Hi Patrick, > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 04:19:16 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 21:19:16 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all who kindly replied to my question, Many thanks for your good contributions in elucidating what I asked about. Your replies are much appreciated. For now, I will add just one more thing. Although I have not critically studied the *R?m?ya?a*, I have the impression that those who have critically studied it regard the first k???a as being a later part of this epic. This agrees with what some of you have said here. V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, however, is being quoted in this k???a, to explain how the ?loka meter arose. It is not part of this k???a's narrative as such. So its language is not necessarily the language of the rest of this k???a, and its age would be independent of the age of this k???a. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about > "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. > "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be called > Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a > Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. > This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics > (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather > doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which > forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the > "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of > the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >> Dear David, >> "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a >> development in the language here, but one which does not match the >> available evidence. >> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering >> alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual >> function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to >> be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical >> reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be >> selected. >> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this >> critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where >> most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the >> Southern recension. >> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent >> "polishing" in a much higher degree. >> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific >> "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of >> manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but >> this is precisely what is not the case: >> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present >> his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more >> advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis >> of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote >> mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always >> correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's >> "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however >> be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet >> not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata >> and www.academia.edu/28515426). >> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his >> line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical >> editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no >> plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time >> of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" >> (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >> Jan Houben >> >> >> >> >> >> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >> >> Directeur d??tudes >> >> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >> >> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >> >> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >> >> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> >> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> >> www.ephe.fr >> >> >> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Bob and all, >>> >>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first ?loka >>> ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* 1.2.14, >>> I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago >>> answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. >>> >>> >>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>> >>> >>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted >>> at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert >>> P. Goldman, 1984) >>> >>> >>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >>> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >>> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >>> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >>> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this is >>> in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original >>> *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? >>> Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated in >>> language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter >>> in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali >>> Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as ( >>> *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been Sanskritized from an >>> earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn been >>> condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as ( >>> *Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> David Reigle >>> >>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce >>>> the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally >>>> J. Sutherland Goldman >>>> >>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 >>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dipak.d2004 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 04:22:50 2016 From: dipak.d2004 at gmail.com (Dipak Bhattacharya) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 09:52:50 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are known in Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? Best DB On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier wrote: > Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about > "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. > "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be called > Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a > Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. > This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics > (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather > doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which > forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the > "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of > the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >> Dear David, >> "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a >> development in the language here, but one which does not match the >> available evidence. >> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering >> alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual >> function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to >> be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical >> reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be >> selected. >> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this >> critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where >> most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the >> Southern recension. >> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent >> "polishing" in a much higher degree. >> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific >> "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of >> manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but >> this is precisely what is not the case: >> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present >> his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more >> advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis >> of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote >> mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always >> correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's >> "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however >> be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet >> not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata >> and www.academia.edu/28515426). >> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his >> line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical >> editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no >> plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time >> of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" >> (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >> Jan Houben >> >> >> >> >> >> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >> >> Directeur d??tudes >> >> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >> >> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >> >> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >> >> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >> >> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> >> www.ephe.fr >> >> >> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Bob and all, >>> >>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first ?loka >>> ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* 1.2.14, >>> I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago >>> answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. >>> >>> >>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>> >>> >>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted >>> at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert >>> P. Goldman, 1984) >>> >>> >>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >>> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >>> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >>> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >>> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this is >>> in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original >>> *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? >>> Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated in >>> language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter >>> in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali >>> Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as ( >>> *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been Sanskritized from an >>> earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn been >>> condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as ( >>> *Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> David Reigle >>> >>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce >>>> the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally >>>> J. Sutherland Goldman >>>> >>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: 9780691168845 >>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 04:55:31 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 21:55:31 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dipak, What about the standard Indian tradition that R?ma lived in the Tret? age? In that case, no ?r?aprayoga would be required to explain the archaic language. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are known in > Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? > > Best > > DB > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about >> "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. >> "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be called >> Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a >> Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. >> This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics >> (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather >> doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which >> forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the >> "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of >> the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Dear David, >>> "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a >>> development in the language here, but one which does not match the >>> available evidence. >>> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering >>> alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual >>> function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >>> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to >>> be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical >>> reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be >>> selected. >>> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this >>> critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where >>> most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the >>> Southern recension. >>> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent >>> "polishing" in a much higher degree. >>> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific >>> "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of >>> manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but >>> this is precisely what is not the case: >>> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present >>> his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more >>> advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis >>> of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote >>> mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always >>> correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's >>> "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however >>> be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet >>> not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata >>> and www.academia.edu/28515426). >>> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his >>> line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical >>> editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no >>> plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time >>> of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" >>> (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >>> Jan Houben >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >>> >>> Directeur d??tudes >>> >>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >>> >>> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>> >>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>> >>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> >>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> >>> www.ephe.fr >>> >>> >>> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Bob and all, >>>> >>>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first >>>> ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* >>>> 1.2.14, I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long >>>> ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this >>>> verse. >>>> >>>> >>>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>>> >>>> >>>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted >>>> at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert >>>> P. Goldman, 1984) >>>> >>>> >>>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >>>> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >>>> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >>>> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >>>> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this >>>> is in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original >>>> *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? >>>> Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated in >>>> language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter >>>> in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali >>>> Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as ( >>>> *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been Sanskritized from >>>> an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn >>>> been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as ( >>>> *Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> David Reigle >>>> >>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>>>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>>>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce >>>>> the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>>>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally >>>>> J. Sutherland Goldman >>>>> >>>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: >>>>> 9780691168845 >>>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>>>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at berkeley.edu Sun Nov 20 05:12:22 2016 From: reimann at berkeley.edu (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 16 21:12:22 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7104f45b-4428-3805-b867-4b11efbbc15c@berkeley.edu> Dear David, If what you are suggesting is that because R?ma is supposed to have lived in Tret?, that implies that the language can be older, the argument doesn't work. The yuga system only appears in India around the beginning of the common era. In addition, the placement of R?ma in Tret? appears only once in V?lm?ki, and that is in the second part of the Uttarak??da, which is late. The Uttara, of course, is the one just published. Later versions of the /R?m?ya?a/ -as well as some Pur??as- reinforce that placement, but it is all a later development, after the /V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a/. Unless I misunderstood you. Luis _____ On 11/19/2016 8:55 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Dipak, > > What about the standard Indian tradition that R?ma lived in the Tret? > age? In that case, no ?r?aprayoga would be required to explain the > archaic language. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya > > wrote: > > Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are > known in Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? > > Best > > DB > > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier > > > wrote: > > Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says > about "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. > "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may > certainly be called Sanskrit when compared with contemporary > Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a Sanskrit which continually > deviates from the norms codified by Panini. This is not > because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the > Epics (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - > moreover rather doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is > metrical exigencies which forced the poets to use a form not > sanctioned by traditional grammar....the "irregularities' are > very often found at a metrically relevena position of the > stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben > > wrote: > > Dear David, > "/agamas/ has here retained its augment": you apparently > postulate a development in the language here, but one > which does not match the available evidence. > See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but > also, offering alternative analyses of partly the same > phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual function of the Rgvedic > present and aorist. > Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a > choice has to be made which edition to take as starting > point: even for mere practical reasons the Baroda critical > edition is the obvious candidate to be selected. > It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et > al. of this critical edition to give preference > systematically to the recension where most grammatical and > metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the Southern > recension. > The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension > underwent "polishing" in a much higher degree. > Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that > specific "irregularities" in the text are identical and > found in a large number of manuscripts that supposedly > represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but this is > precisely what is not the case: > see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study /Valmiki's Sanskrit/: > at present his study, not without problems of its own, > could be redone with more advanced statistical means and a > fresh study of the evidence. On the basis of a study of > books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki > wrote mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not > necessarily always correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and > the poor definition of van Daalen's "irregularities" is > one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however be > "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of > acceptable yet not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. > Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata and > www.academia.edu/28515426 > ). > E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those > accepting his line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's > arguments *against* critical editions for the epics), more > realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no plausible > original reconstructed and practically there was from the > time of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no > original Ramayana" (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). > Jan Houben > > > > *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* > > Directeur d??tudes > > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > > *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* > > /Sciences historiques et philologiques / > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques > > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > > > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > > www.ephe.fr > > > On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle > > wrote: > > Dear Bob and all, > > Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards > as the first ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka > now preserved at /R?m?ya?a/ 1.2.14, I have had a > question about it. Probably you or others have long > ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the > relevant material on this verse. > > > m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | > yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || > 1.2.14 || > > > ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of > /krau?cas/, distracted at the height of passion, you > shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert P. > Goldman, 1984) > > > What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this > verse, /agamas/ and /avadh?s/, are aorists. Moreover, > /agamas/ has here retained its augment, although used > with /m?/. My understanding is that, since aorists > largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they > are not at all common in the /R?m?ya?a/. So here is my > question. Assuming that this is in fact V?lm?ki?s > first ?loka, would this point to an original > /R?m?ya?a/ that is considerably older than the > /R?m?ya?a/ we now have? Could the /R?m?ya?a/ as now > extant have been reworked, updated in language so to > speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. > Pargiter in his detailed study, /The Pur?na Text of > the Dynasties of the Kali Age/ (1913), found > considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as > (/V?yu/, /Brahm???a/, /Matsya/) the verses had been > Sanskritized from an earlier literary Prakrit, and > that these Sanskrit verses had in turn been condensed > and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other > pur??as (/Vi??u/, /Bh?gavata/). > > > Best regards, > > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman > > wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > On behalf of all the scholars who have been > involved with the decades-long project to > translate and annotate the critical edition of the > /V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a/, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman > and I are happy to announce the publication of the > seventh and final volume of the work. > > > > > > > > > /The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient > India,/ /Volume VII: Uttarak???a/ > Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by > Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman > > Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* > | ISBN: 9780691168845 > 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 > tables. > > > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished > Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC > # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can > change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages > to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change > your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to > the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your > list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the > list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info > (messages to the list's > managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 06:46:34 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 12:16:34 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]=09Les_math=C3=A9matiques_de_l'autel_v=C3=A9dique?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looking at the use of a good word in a wrong context, it is not proper to avoid the use of the same good word in the right context. In order to show what can justifiably called 'Vedic Mathematics', books such as your well researched one should be called 'Vedic Mathematics' books only. Congratulations! Looking more such works from you. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Jean-Michel, > Congratulations with this publication, the result of many years of hard > work, and a significant contribution to Vedic and Sanskrit studies and to > the history of mathematics. > Jan > > > > *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* > > Directeur d??tudes > > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > > *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > 54, rue Saint-Jacques > > CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > > johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > www.ephe.fr > > > On 15 November 2016 at 21:06, Jean-Michel Delire > wrote: > >> Dear list, >> >> Your discussion reminds me the so-called Vedic mathematics, which are not >> Vedic at all. That is the reason why I have myself been very cautious not >> to use Vedic directly associated with mathematics in the title of my (just >> published) book : Les math?matiques de l'autel v?dique, or Mathematics of >> the Vedic Altar (the book is mainly in French). The altar is definitely >> vedic, and also the mathematics used to build it and explained in the book, >> but they are very different of what is nowadays - and inaccurately - called >> Vedic mathematics. If you want more information, see >> http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html >> >> Best regards, >> >> Jean Michel Delire >> >> >> >Hi Patrick, >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 07:18:26 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 12:48:26 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: <7104f45b-4428-3805-b867-4b11efbbc15c@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Use of the terminology of ?r?a pray?ga is independent of Rama's placement in tr?t? yuga. ?r?a pray?ga is a term used to 'justify' /make sense of 'the irregularities' with reference to ' Paninian s?dhutva'. It is anchored on the view of language of the r??i authors of the books being a different 'dialect' of Sanskrit taking shape on account of their different settlement pattern, different life style, and as a result different attitude towards (s?dhutva of ) speech. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann < reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote: > Dear David, > > If what you are suggesting is that because R?ma is supposed to have lived > in Tret?, that implies that the language can be older, the argument doesn't > work. The yuga system only appears in India around the beginning of the > common era. In addition, the placement of R?ma in Tret? appears only once > in V?lm?ki, and that is in the second part of the Uttarak??da, which is > late. The Uttara, of course, is the one just published. Later versions of > the *R?m?ya?a* -as well as some Pur??as- reinforce that placement, but > it is all a later development, after the *V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a*. > > Unless I misunderstood you. > > Luis > > _____ > > On 11/19/2016 8:55 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > > Dear Dipak, > > What about the standard Indian tradition that R?ma lived in the Tret? > age? In that case, no ?r?aprayoga would be required to explain the > archaic language. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > >> Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are known in >> Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? >> >> Best >> >> DB >> >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier > > wrote: >> >>> Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about >>> "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. >>> "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be >>> called Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is >>> a Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. >>> This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics >>> (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather >>> doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which >>> forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the >>> "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of >>> the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear David, >>>> "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a >>>> development in the language here, but one which does not match the >>>> available evidence. >>>> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering >>>> alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual >>>> function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >>>> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has >>>> to be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical >>>> reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be >>>> selected. >>>> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this >>>> critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where >>>> most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the >>>> Southern recension. >>>> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent >>>> "polishing" in a much higher degree. >>>> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific >>>> "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of >>>> manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but >>>> this is precisely what is not the case: >>>> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present >>>> his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more >>>> advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis >>>> of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote >>>> mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always >>>> correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's >>>> "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however >>>> be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet >>>> not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata >>>> and www.academia.edu/28515426). >>>> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his >>>> line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical >>>> editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no >>>> plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time >>>> of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" >>>> (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >>>> Jan Houben >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >>>> >>>> Directeur d??tudes >>>> >>>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >>>> >>>> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >>>> >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> >>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>>> >>>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>>> >>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> >>>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> >>>> www.ephe.fr >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle < >>>> dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Bob and all, >>>>> >>>>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first >>>>> ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* >>>>> 1.2.14, I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long >>>>> ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this >>>>> verse. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>>>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted >>>>> at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert >>>>> P. Goldman, 1984) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >>>>> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >>>>> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >>>>> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >>>>> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this >>>>> is in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original >>>>> *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now >>>>> have? Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated >>>>> in language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. >>>>> Pargiter in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of >>>>> the Kali Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest >>>>> pur??as (*V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been >>>>> Sanskritized from an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit >>>>> verses had in turn been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in >>>>> some other pur??as (*Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Reigle >>>>> >>>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>> >>>>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>>>>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>>>>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce >>>>>> the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>>>>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>>>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & >>>>>> Sally J. Sutherland Goldman >>>>>> >>>>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: >>>>>> 9780691168845 >>>>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>>>>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>>>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 07:22:47 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 12:52:47 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: <7104f45b-4428-3805-b867-4b11efbbc15c@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Use of the terminology of ?r?a pray?ga is independent of Rama's placement in tr?t? yuga. ?r?a pray?ga is a term used to 'justify' /make sense of 'the irregularities' with reference to ' Paninian s?dhutva'. It is anchored on the view of language of the r??i authors of the books being a different 'dialect' of Sanskrit taking shape on account of their different settlement pattern, different life style, and as a result different attitude towards (s?dhutva of ) speech. It is has another implication: It implies that those who want to look for ?i??a pray?ga for the authority for correct usage should not emulate that usage while not considering that as as?dhu. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann < reimann at berkeley.edu> wrote: > Dear David, > > If what you are suggesting is that because R?ma is supposed to have lived > in Tret?, that implies that the language can be older, the argument doesn't > work. The yuga system only appears in India around the beginning of the > common era. In addition, the placement of R?ma in Tret? appears only once > in V?lm?ki, and that is in the second part of the Uttarak??da, which is > late. The Uttara, of course, is the one just published. Later versions of > the *R?m?ya?a* -as well as some Pur??as- reinforce that placement, but > it is all a later development, after the *V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a*. > > Unless I misunderstood you. > > Luis > > _____ > > On 11/19/2016 8:55 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > > Dear Dipak, > > What about the standard Indian tradition that R?ma lived in the Tret? > age? In that case, no ?r?aprayoga would be required to explain the > archaic language. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya > wrote: > >> Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are known in >> Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? >> >> Best >> >> DB >> >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier > > wrote: >> >>> Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about >>> "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. >>> "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be >>> called Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is >>> a Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. >>> This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics >>> (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather >>> doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which >>> forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the >>> "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of >>> the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear David, >>>> "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a >>>> development in the language here, but one which does not match the >>>> available evidence. >>>> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering >>>> alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual >>>> function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >>>> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has >>>> to be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical >>>> reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be >>>> selected. >>>> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this >>>> critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where >>>> most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the >>>> Southern recension. >>>> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent >>>> "polishing" in a much higher degree. >>>> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific >>>> "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of >>>> manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but >>>> this is precisely what is not the case: >>>> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present >>>> his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more >>>> advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis >>>> of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote >>>> mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always >>>> correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's >>>> "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however >>>> be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet >>>> not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata >>>> and www.academia.edu/28515426). >>>> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his >>>> line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical >>>> editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no >>>> plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time >>>> of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" >>>> (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >>>> Jan Houben >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >>>> >>>> Directeur d??tudes >>>> >>>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >>>> >>>> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >>>> >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> >>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>>> >>>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>>> >>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> >>>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> >>>> www.ephe.fr >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle < >>>> dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Bob and all, >>>>> >>>>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first >>>>> ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* >>>>> 1.2.14, I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long >>>>> ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this >>>>> verse. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>>>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted >>>>> at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert >>>>> P. Goldman, 1984) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >>>>> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >>>>> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >>>>> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >>>>> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this >>>>> is in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original >>>>> *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now >>>>> have? Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated >>>>> in language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. >>>>> Pargiter in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of >>>>> the Kali Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest >>>>> pur??as (*V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been >>>>> Sanskritized from an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit >>>>> verses had in turn been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in >>>>> some other pur??as (*Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Reigle >>>>> >>>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>> >>>>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>>>>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>>>>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce >>>>>> the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>>>>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>>>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & >>>>>> Sally J. Sutherland Goldman >>>>>> >>>>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: >>>>>> 9780691168845 >>>>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>>>>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>>>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>>> committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list >>>>>> options or unsubscribe) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 09:27:43 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 10:27:43 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David et al., Commentaries may have discussed it as ?r?aprayoga but if we try to take the meta-narrative seriously, could it rather have been ... (still) "bandit's" prayoga (bandit with b)? At this early stage, the transformation of dacoit Ratn?kara to V?lm?ki (see at YouTube under "Ratnakar to Valmiki" for some modern representations of this episode) would not yet have been complete. At least his language would still have beginners' and learner's mistakes, and a "hypersanskritization" such as an aorist injunctive with an augment superfluously added (which can hardly be interpreted as archaic or primitive or colloquial). Best, Jan . On Sunday, 20 November 2016, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear Dipak, > > What about the standard Indian tradition that R?ma lived in the Tret? age? In that case, no ?r?aprayoga would be required to explain the archaic language. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: >> >> Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are known in Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? >> >> Best >> >> DB >> >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier wrote: >>> >>> Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. >>> "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be called Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear David, >>>> "agamas has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a development in the language here, but one which does not match the available evidence. >>>> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >>>> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be selected. >>>> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the Southern recension. >>>> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent "polishing" in a much higher degree. >>>> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but this is precisely what is not the case: >>>> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study Valmiki's Sanskrit: at present his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata and www.academia.edu/28515426). >>>> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >>>> Jan Houben >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jan E.M. HOUBEN >>>> >>>> Directeur d??tudes >>>> >>>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >>>> >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes >>>> >>>> Sciences historiques et philologiques >>>> >>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>>> >>>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>>> >>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>>> >>>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> >>>> www.ephe.fr >>>> >>>> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle < dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Bob and all, >>>>> >>>>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at R?m?ya?a 1.2.14, I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. >>>>> >>>>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>>>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>>>> >>>>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of krau?cas, distracted at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert P. Goldman, 1984) >>>>> >>>>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, agamas and avadh?s, are aorists. Moreover, agamas has here retained its augment, although used with m?. My understanding is that, since aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all common in the R?m?ya?a. So here is my question. Assuming that this is in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original R?m?ya?a that is considerably older than the R?m?ya?a we now have? Could the R?m?ya?a as now extant have been reworked, updated in language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter in his detailed study, The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali Age (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as (V?yu, Brahm???a, Matsya) the verses had been Sanskritized from an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as (Vi??u, Bh?gavata). >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> David Reigle >>>>> >>>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume VII: Uttarak???a >>>>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally J. Sutherland Goldman >>>>>> >>>>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 >>>>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies >>>>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 10:20:22 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 15:50:22 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Valmiki's bandit biography is only one of the versions, albeit the most popular of his life-stories available in different texts than Valmiki Ramayana. The other version is that he is son of a rishi, Pracheta. The verse under question and the portion of Valmiki Ranayana from where this picked do not have the bandit version of the narrative in the background directly or indirectly. So that may not be a good way to explain the question under discussion. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear David et al., > Commentaries may have discussed it as ?r?aprayoga but if we try to take > the meta-narrative seriously, could it rather have been ... (still) > "bandit's" prayoga (bandit with b)? At this early stage, the > transformation of dacoit Ratn?kara to V?lm?ki (see at YouTube under > "Ratnakar to Valmiki" for some modern representations of this episode) > would not yet have been complete. At least his language would still have > beginners' and learner's mistakes, and a "hypersanskritization" such as an > aorist injunctive with an augment superfluously added (which can hardly be > interpreted as archaic or primitive or colloquial). > Best, Jan > . > > > On Sunday, 20 November 2016, David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > > Dear Dipak, > > > > What about the standard Indian tradition that R?ma lived in the Tret? > age? In that case, no ?r?aprayoga would be required to explain the archaic > language. > > > > Best regards, > > > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya < > dipak.d2004 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Why not a pure solecism as Indian authorities think? These are known in > Indian tradition as ?r?aprayoga, irregular use by the seers? > >> > >> Best > >> > >> DB > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:02 AM, Harry Spier < > hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about > "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. > >>> "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be > called Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is > a Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. > This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics > (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather > doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which > forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the > "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of > the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". > >>> Thanks, > >>> Harry Spier > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear David, > >>>> "agamas has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a > development in the language here, but one which does not match the > available evidence. > >>>> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, > offering alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda > Aspectual function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. > >>>> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has > to be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical > reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be > selected. > >>>> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this > critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where > most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the > Southern recension. > >>>> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent > "polishing" in a much higher degree. > >>>> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific > "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of > manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but > this is precisely what is not the case: > >>>> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study Valmiki's Sanskrit: at present > his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more > advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis > of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote > mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always > correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's > "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however > be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet > not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata > and www.academia.edu/28515426). > >>>> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting > his line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical > editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no > plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time > of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" > (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). > >>>> Jan Houben > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> fIuAHuhqPByOWB2JkSw_O1x8y8-PDEuYhATfXahNfxshFInXITrKFja-fAt9 > NomFBkDRIPE9veFBH6T5ZulbhxrZuBTbVBXApKOBTkFtAfF80vMoRuL30O5b > YuNrEGtSAEAh-h5Cpi7DbjpPFD1vCm2evDQaN157gzEA1VO1kzXUfTIKCFDN > agfj6FLFk-bJamI_5nfJM=s0-d-e1-ft#https://docs.google.com/uc? > export=download&id=0B-TN0Ek0VfGDX1RqVTJKdjBuWWs&revid=0B-TN0 > Ek0VfGDdVF4aXhNb1F5czA4bFhBRzI1S2l3UitFeFBjPQ> > > >>>> > >>>> Jan E.M. HOUBEN > >>>> > >>>> Directeur d??tudes > >>>> > >>>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > >>>> > >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes > >>>> > >>>> Sciences historiques et philologiques > >>>> > >>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques > >>>> > >>>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris > >>>> > >>>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr > >>>> > >>>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > >>>> > >>>> www.ephe.fr > >>>> > >>>> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle < > dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Bob and all, > >>>>> > >>>>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first > ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at R?m?ya?a 1.2.14, > I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long ago > answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this verse. > >>>>> > >>>>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | > >>>>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || > >>>>> > >>>>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of krau?cas, distracted > at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert > P. Goldman, 1984) > >>>>> > >>>>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, agamas > and avadh?s, are aorists. Moreover, agamas has here retained its augment, > although used with m?. My understanding is that, since aorists largely fell > out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all common in the > R?m?ya?a. So here is my question. Assuming that this is in fact V?lm?ki?s > first ?loka, would this point to an original R?m?ya?a that is considerably > older than the R?m?ya?a we now have? Could the R?m?ya?a as now extant have > been reworked, updated in language so to speak, from an earlier original? > For example, F. E. Pargiter in his detailed study, The Pur?na Text of the > Dynasties of the Kali Age (1913), found considerable evidence that in the > oldest pur??as (V?yu, Brahm???a, Matsya) the verses had been Sanskritized > from an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in > turn been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other > pur??as (Vi??u, Bh?gavata). > >>>>> > >>>>> Best regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> David Reigle > >>>>> > >>>>> Colorado, U.S.A. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, > >>>>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the > decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the > V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce > the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India, Volume > VII: Uttarak???a > >>>>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & > Sally J. Sutherland Goldman > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | $175.00 | ?129.95 | ISBN: 9780691168845 > >>>>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman > >>>>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in > South and Southeast Asian Studies > >>>>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > >>>>>> The University of California at Berkeley > >>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > >>>>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 > >>>>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun Nov 20 12:34:07 2016 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 12:34:07 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_date_of_Old_Tamil_Ca=E1=B9=85kam_poetry?= Message-ID: Dear List members, This is to let you know that I have written an article about David Shulman's attempt to date Ca?kam poetry in his recent book Tamil. A Biography (Massachusetts 2016). By way of experiment I have placed a pdf of the article directly on my website (go to "publications", then to "Articles"). The title of the article is: "Myth versus concocted empiricist histories. David Shulman's reconstruction of the history of Tamil Ca?kam poetry". With the best wishes, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu Sun Nov 20 12:34:06 2016 From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 12:34:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA Message-ID: Hi all, I received the below question via email. I don't have a handy reference?can anyone help? Best, Toke ===== I had a query about the correct usage of the term(s) "guru?shishya" and "parampara". I think what they indicate is the succession of teacher and pupil in a Vedic intellectual tradition, passing on knowledge and practice. But my only "reference" for this is a vague memory plus, um, wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru%E2%80%93shishya_tradition), and I'd rather not refer to those, ah, sources. What is the correct translation / explanation, and do you know a good citation or two I can have? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sun Nov 20 13:15:56 2016 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 07:15:56 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_The_date_of_Old_Tamil_Ca=E1=B9=85kam_poetry?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can you post the link to the article? Thanks Regards, Palaniappan > On Nov 20, 2016, at 6:34 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Dear List members, > > This is to let you know that I have written an article about David Shulman's attempt to date Ca?kam poetry in his recent book Tamil. A Biography (Massachusetts 2016). By way of experiment I have placed a pdf of the article directly on my website (go to "publications", then to "Articles"). > The title of the article is: > > "Myth versus concocted empiricist histories. > David Shulman's reconstruction of the history of Tamil Ca?kam poetry". > > With the best wishes, Herman > > > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 13:47:17 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 19:17:17 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: AN ANALYSIS OF THE CHANGE PROCESS IN THE GURU-DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP. (VOLUMES I AND II) by GLICK, STEPHEN Ph.D., Temple University, 1983, 582 pages; AAT 8311643) I found this from the archives of the Indology list. http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2013-January/037493.html There could be many many more. I remember a conference announcement on the Indologist itself, on the concept of Guru. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Toke Knudsen wrote: > Hi all, > > I received the below question via email. I don't have a handy > reference?can anyone help? > > Best, > Toke > > ===== > > I had a query about the correct usage of the term(s) "guru?shishya" and > "parampara". I think what they indicate is the succession of teacher and > pupil in a Vedic intellectual tradition, passing on knowledge and practice. > But my only "reference" for this is a vague memory plus, um, wikipedia ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru%E2%80%93shishya_tradition), and I'd > rather not refer to those, ah, sources. What is the correct translation / > explanation, and do you know a good citation or two I can have? > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ambapradeep at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 15:10:25 2016 From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 20:40:25 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Second Call for Participation: Workshop on Skt Comp Ling and Digital Libraries at Varanasi Message-ID: Apologies for cross posting. Second Call for participation in the workshop ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- * BRIDGING THE GAP BETWEEN SANSKRIT COMPUTATIONAL LINGUISTICS TOOLS AND MANAGEMENT OF SANSKRIT DIGITAL LIBRARIES* Venue : IIT-BHU, Varanasi Date : Dec. 18th 2016 *Registration for the workshop is now open.* Registration URL: http://ltrc.iiit.ac.in/icon2016/registration/ Accommodation URL: http://ltrc.iiit.ac.in/icon2016/accomodation.php Workshop webpage: http://cse.iitkgp.ac.in/resgrp/cnerg/sclws/ In case you need any further information, pl write to icon2016workshop at gmail.com With regards, Amba Kulkarni ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------- About the workshop Several platforms of computational linguistics have been developed for Sanskrit. There are in-house efforts to use these computational linguistic tools for semi-automatic annotation of the Sanskrit corpus at various levels such as annotation of inflectional and derivational morphology, annotation of ka?raka roles, and linking the stems with various digital lexica. These tasks are being carried out mostly semi-automatically involving a human supervision, or with a user interface for appropriate selection. Several Digital Sanskrit libraries are being developed. However, there is no present consensus on interoperability between the ones and the others, such as inter-translatable annotation of corpus. Moreover, for want of a common platform, there is very little communication among the researchers involved in the digital libraries and the computational linguists. OBJECTIVE The goal of this workshop is to provide a forum for the various researchers involved in such efforts, in view of increasing cooperation in this area. The workshop would welcome participants both from the computational linguistics side and from the philology side, as well as traditional pandits interested in computer usage. This forum would provide a platform to discuss on the interoperability between the two platforms, such as inter-translatable annotation of corpus, development of proper user interfaces etc. facilitating bridging the gap between the two efforts. THE WORKSHOP INVITES SUBMISSION IN THE FOLLOWING WORKSHOP TOPICS. Corpus Management -Sanskrit digital libraries formats -Versioning of digital libraries -Quality control of corpus acquisition, traceability of annotation -Incremental annotation and version control -Distribution and replication issues of digital libraries Textual Representation -Format of metadata, line numbering -Lexical conventions concerning sandhi, avagraha, punctuation, quotations explicitation -Representation of ambiguities, ?le?a explicitation, notation for variants -Technical issues in computer encodings of Sanskrit Annotations -Morphological tags for Sanskrit -Semantic roles tagging (ka?raka/?k??k??) -Annotation training -Discourse tagging, anaphoric references explicitation -Meter recognition -Statistical methods for annotation automation. Digital Lexicon -Alignment of digital lexicons -Root concordances / Dha?tupa?tha formalisation THE WORKSHOP ACCEPTS SUBMISSION OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES Regular papers (6-8 pages) System Demonstrations (2-3 pages) SUBMISSION INSTRUCTIONS: The papers should be written either in English or in Sanskrit. Papers written in any other language will be rejected without any review. The authors must submit their papers before the deadline (1st November, anywhere in the world) by sending an email to icon2016workshop at gmail.com. For demonstration papers, the authors are advised to give a link to their system, if accessible online, or provide some snapshots as appendix. Authors can use any number of pages for this appendix. Important Dates: First Call for Papers: September 26th, 2016 Submission Deadline: November 1st, 2016 Acceptance Notification: November 15th, 2016 Workshop: December 18th, 2016 INVITED SPEAKERS PROF. GOPABANDHU MISHRA Head, Department of Sahitya, BANARAS HINDU UNIVERSITY, Varanasi ORGANIZING COMMITTEE Amba Kulkarni, IIAS, Shimla G?rard Huet, Inria, Paris Srinivas Varakhedi, KSU, Bangalore Pawan Goyal, IIT Kharagpur PROGRAM COMMITTEE Pawan Goyal, IIT Kharagpur Oliver Hellwig, Germany G?rard Huet, Inria, Paris Amba Kulkarni, IIAS, Shimla Malhar Kulkarni, IIT Bombay Dhaval Patel, Gujarat Peter Scharf, Sanskrit Library, USA Rajaram Shukla, BHU, Varanasi Lalit Kumar Tripathi, RSkS, Allahabad Srinivas Varakhedi, KSU, Bangalore -- Fellow, Indian Institute of Advanced Study, Shimla ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Prof. (On leave) Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba -- Fellow, Indian Institute of Advanced Study, Shimla ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Prof. (On leave) Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 17:56:43 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 12:56:43 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Reigle wrote: > V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, however, is being quoted in this k???a, to explain > how the ?loka meter arose. It is not part of this k???a's narrative as > such. So its language is not necessarily the language of the rest of this k???a, > and its age would be independent of the age of this k???a. > Looking at the distribution and locations of "vai" and "ha" in Ramayana book 1. Chapter 1 has the most occurances of "ha" in the Late Epic expected location at paada end, 6 times. with no occurances in Vedic expected position (of second word in sentence or anywhere else). vai does not occur in chapter 1. Chapter 2 which describes the creation of shloka metre incident is more ambiguous. "ha" occurs in verse 8 at Vedic expected position (second word in sentence) and once in non-vedic expected position but not at paada end in verse 19. And "ha" occurs once in Late Epic expected position at paada end in verse 20. But what surprises me is that the occurance of "ha" is so irregular since its use in the Ramayana (with only one exception) is as a metrical filler at paada end. Chapter 1 having 6 occurances of "ha" at paada end but with many chapters not having "ha" at all. "ha" does not occur in chapters 3 thru 8, 11, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23 thru 33, 36, 37, 39 thru 42, 44, 46, 47, 49, 50, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 59, 63, 64, 67, 69, 71, 72, 74 and 76 Thanks, Harry Spier > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 18:07:22 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 13:07:22 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_CORRECTION:_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= Message-ID: David Reigle wrote: > V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, however, is being quoted in this k???a, to explain > how the ?loka meter arose. It is not part of this k???a's narrative as > such. So its language is not necessarily the language of the rest of this k???a, > and its age would be independent of the age of this k???a. > Looking at the distribution and locations of "vai" and "ha" in Ramayana book 1. Chapter 1 has the most occurances of "ha" in the Late Epic expected location at paada end, 6 times. with no occurances in Vedic expected position (of second word in sentence or anywhere else). vai does not occur in chapter 1. Chapter 2 which describes the creation of shloka metre incident is more ambiguous. "ha" occurs in verse 8 at Vedic expected position (second word in sentence) and "vai" occurs once in non-vedic expected position but not at paada end in verse 19. And "ha" occurs once in Late Epic expected position at paada end in verse 20. But what surprises me is that the occurance of "ha" is so irregular since its use in the Ramayana (with only one exception) is as a metrical filler at paada end. Chapter 1 having 6 occurances of "ha" at paada end but with many chapters not having "ha" at all. "ha" does not occur in chapters 3 thru 8, 11, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23 thru 33, 36, 37, 39 thru 42, 44, 46, 47, 49, 50, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 59, 63, 64, 67, 69, 71, 72, 74 and 76 Thanks, Harry Spier > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 18:20:54 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 23:50:54 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Toke, > I think what they indicate is the succession of teacher and pupil in a Vedic intellectual tradition, passing on knowledge and practice The Wikipedia page that your correspondent mentions clearly states that the culture/tradition is not limited to the Vedic tradition but pervades many other Indian areas /fields/ cultures/ traditions of learning. The word ?ch?rya is found in the Vedas. The extremely popular ??nti mantra saha n? vavatu etc. is the joint wish of the guru and ?i?ya. "asmad?ch?rya paryant?m vand? guruparampar?m" is the last part of the usual formulaic prayer found in the beginnings of Vedanta discourses like those of the Advaitins. In upad??a- based mantra japa traditions, praying to the guruparampar? is the ordained part of a japa-session. Nowadays, the word guru?i?yaparampar? is being used to contrast with the mutual 'legal-rational' relationship between teachers and students in the 'modern' educational institutes without the memory of a long lineage/order of Guru -?i?ya- pra?i?ya and so on and an emotional bondage of every ?i?ya with the immediate Guru in particular and the entire lineage /order in general which is found in the guru?i?yaparampar? type system. This order has the name ghar?n? in hindust?n? music and each ghar?n? also refers to particular 'style' of singing. One interesting guru(?i?ya)parampar? that finds mention in many spiritual traditions is that of n?tha samprad?ya /n?tha parampar?. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > AN ANALYSIS OF THE CHANGE PROCESS IN THE GURU-DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP. > (VOLUMES I AND II) by GLICK, STEPHEN Ph.D., Temple University, 1983, 582 > pages; AAT 8311643) > > I found this from the archives of the Indology list. > http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list. > indology.info/2013-January/037493.html > > There could be many many more. > > I remember a conference announcement on the Indologist itself, on the > concept of Guru. > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Toke Knudsen > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I received the below question via email. I don't have a handy >> reference?can anyone help? >> >> Best, >> Toke >> >> ===== >> >> I had a query about the correct usage of the term(s) "guru?shishya" and >> "parampara". I think what they indicate is the succession of teacher and >> pupil in a Vedic intellectual tradition, passing on knowledge and practice. >> But my only "reference" for this is a vague memory plus, um, wikipedia ( >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru%E2%80%93shishya_tradition), and I'd >> rather not refer to those, ah, sources. What is the correct translation / >> explanation, and do you know a good citation or two I can have? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 18:44:51 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 16 00:14:51 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One interesting guru(?i?ya)parampar? that finds mention in many spiritual traditions is that of n?tha samprad?ya /n?tha parampar?. For greater accuracy , I should have said, One interesting guru(?i?ya)parampar? that finds mention as the founding/ beginning guru(?i?ya)parampar? of the given tradition in many spiritual traditions is that of n?tha samprad?ya /n?tha parampar?. On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:50 PM, Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Dear Toke, > > > I think what they indicate is the succession of teacher and pupil in a > Vedic intellectual tradition, passing on knowledge and practice > > > The Wikipedia page that your correspondent mentions clearly states that > the culture/tradition is not limited to the Vedic tradition but pervades > many other Indian areas /fields/ cultures/ traditions of learning. > > The word ?ch?rya is found in the Vedas. > > The extremely popular ??nti mantra saha n? vavatu etc. is the joint wish > of the guru and ?i?ya. > > "asmad?ch?rya paryant?m vand? guruparampar?m" is the last part of the > usual formulaic prayer found in the beginnings of Vedanta discourses like > those of the Advaitins. > > In upad??a- based mantra japa traditions, praying to the guruparampar? is > the ordained part of a japa-session. > > Nowadays, the word guru?i?yaparampar? is being used to contrast with the > mutual 'legal-rational' relationship between teachers and students in the > 'modern' educational institutes without the memory of a long lineage/order > of Guru -?i?ya- pra?i?ya and so on and an emotional bondage of > every ?i?ya with the immediate Guru in particular and the entire lineage > /order in general which is found in the guru?i?yaparampar? type system. > > This order has the name ghar?n? in hindust?n? music and each ghar?n? also > refers to particular 'style' of singing. > > One interesting guru(?i?ya)parampar? that finds mention in many spiritual > traditions is that of n?tha samprad?ya /n?tha parampar?. > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > >> AN ANALYSIS OF THE CHANGE PROCESS IN THE GURU-DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP. >> (VOLUMES I AND II) by GLICK, STEPHEN Ph.D., Temple University, 1983, 582 >> pages; AAT 8311643) >> >> I found this from the archives of the Indology list. >> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology. >> info/2013-January/037493.html >> >> There could be many many more. >> >> I remember a conference announcement on the Indologist itself, on the >> concept of Guru. >> >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Toke Knudsen >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I received the below question via email. I don't have a handy >>> reference?can anyone help? >>> >>> Best, >>> Toke >>> >>> ===== >>> >>> I had a query about the correct usage of the term(s) "guru?shishya" and >>> "parampara". I think what they indicate is the succession of teacher and >>> pupil in a Vedic intellectual tradition, passing on knowledge and practice. >>> But my only "reference" for this is a vague memory plus, um, wikipedia ( >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru%E2%80%93shishya_tradition), and I'd >>> rather not refer to those, ah, sources. What is the correct translation / >>> explanation, and do you know a good citation or two I can have? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Nagaraj Paturi >> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. >> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies >> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, >> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > > Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. > > Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies > > FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, > > (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) > > > > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 20:08:01 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 16 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_V=C4=81lm=C4=ABki=E2=80=99s_first_=C5=9Bloka?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear David, Oberlies, A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit, 6.5 Constructions with maa (page 184) refers to this specific verse 1.2.14 and its use of an augmented aorist with maa. "To express a prohibition the partical maa is used - as a rule - with unaugmented forms of the aorist. In Epic Sanskrit, however, the augment is occasionally not dropped. maa . . . agamaH, R.2.14 ....[more references from MBh and R ]...." But more importantly Oberlies makes a reference in a footnote to an article on this stanza. "On this stanza see Kolver (1985. 32 n.7)" >From the title of this article it appears very relevent to this discussion. Is it possible for a list member to make available a pdf of: B. Kolver. Uberlagerungen im Ramayana: Die Legende von der Erfindung des Sloka WZKS (1985) 27 -41 . WZKS = Weiner Zeitschrift fur die Kunde Sud Thanks, Harry Spier On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:19 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Dear all who kindly replied to my question, > > Many thanks for your good contributions in elucidating what I asked about. > Your replies are much appreciated. For now, I will add just one more thing. > > Although I have not critically studied the *R?m?ya?a*, I have the > impression that those who have critically studied it regard the first > k???a as being a later part of this epic. This agrees with what some of > you have said here. V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, however, is being quoted in > this k???a, to explain how the ?loka meter arose. It is not part of this k???a's > narrative as such. So its language is not necessarily the language of the > rest of this k???a, and its age would be independent of the age of this > k???a. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Note also what Oberlies, "A Grammar of Epic Sanskrit" says about >> "irregularities" in epic sanskrit in his introduction.. >> "The language of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana may certainly be called >> Sanskrit when compared with contemporary Middle Indo-Aryan but it is a >> Sanskrit which continually deviates from the norms codified by Panini. >> This is not because such 'aberrant' forms were pre-Paninian. For the Epics >> (and in fact only the Mahabharata) know only a handful - moreover rather >> doubtful - Vedisms. ......Almost always it is metrical exigencies which >> forced the poets to use a form not sanctioned by traditional grammar....the >> "irregularities' are very often found at a metrically relevena position of >> the stanza: "Metre surpasses grammar". >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Dear David, >>> "*agamas* has here retained its augment": you apparently postulate a >>> development in the language here, but one which does not match the >>> available evidence. >>> See mainly Karl Hoffmann Der Injunktiv im Veda 1967, but also, offering >>> alternative analyses of partly the same phrases, Jan Gonda Aspectual >>> function of the Rgvedic present and aorist. >>> Another point is that in order to translate the Ramayana a choice has to >>> be made which edition to take as starting point: even for mere practical >>> reasons the Baroda critical edition is the obvious candidate to be >>> selected. >>> It was the editorial choice of the editors G.H. Bhatt et al. of this >>> critical edition to give preference systematically to the recension where >>> most grammatical and metrical "irregularities" are found, i.e., the >>> Southern recension. >>> The idea is that the manuscripts of the Northern recension underwent >>> "polishing" in a much higher degree. >>> Under this "polishing-theory" one should then expect that specific >>> "irregularities" in the text are identical and found in a large number of >>> manuscripts that supposedly represent the older, pre-polishing stage, but >>> this is precisely what is not the case: >>> see Leendert van Daalen's 1980 study *Valmiki's Sanskrit*: at present >>> his study, not without problems of its own, could be redone with more >>> advanced statistical means and a fresh study of the evidence. On the basis >>> of a study of books II-IV van Daalen concludes that the Poet Valmiki wrote >>> mostly "correct" classical Sanskrit -- this does not necessarily always >>> correspond to "Paninian" sanskrit, and the poor definition of van Daalen's >>> "irregularities" is one of the weaknesses in his study, which could however >>> be "repaired" to some extent by referring to other forms of acceptable yet >>> not strictly Paninian sanskrit (cf. Narayana Bhatta's Apaniniyapramanata >>> and www.academia.edu/28515426). >>> E.W. Hopkins 1901 was even more sceptical, or, for those accepting his >>> line of argument (cf. Madeleine Biardeau's arguments *against* critical >>> editions for the epics), more realistic, than van Daalen: "There can be no >>> plausible original reconstructed and practically there was from the time >>> of, let us say, the first repetition of the text no original Ramayana" >>> (quoted in van Daalen's study, p. 6). >>> Jan Houben >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* >>> >>> Directeur d??tudes >>> >>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite >>> >>> *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques >>> >>> CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris >>> >>> johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr >>> >>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> >>> www.ephe.fr >>> >>> >>> On 19 November 2016 at 19:55, David and Nancy Reigle >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Bob and all, >>>> >>>> Ever since I was introduced to what tradition regards as the first >>>> ?loka ever written, V?lm?ki?s first ?loka now preserved at *R?m?ya?a* >>>> 1.2.14, I have had a question about it. Probably you or others have long >>>> ago answered it. Sorry for my ignorance of the relevant material on this >>>> verse. >>>> >>>> >>>> m? ni??da prati??h?? tvam agama? ???vat?? sam?? | >>>> yat krau?ca-mithun?d ekam avadh?? k?ma-mohitam || 1.2.14 || >>>> >>>> >>>> ?Since, Ni??da, you killed one of this pair of *krau?cas*, distracted >>>> at the height of passion, you shall not live for very long.? (trans. Robert >>>> P. Goldman, 1984) >>>> >>>> >>>> What first struck me is that both of the verbs in this verse, *agamas* >>>> and *avadh?s*, are aorists. Moreover, *agamas* has here retained its >>>> augment, although used with *m?*. My understanding is that, since >>>> aorists largely fell out of use after the Vedic period, they are not at all >>>> common in the *R?m?ya?a*. So here is my question. Assuming that this >>>> is in fact V?lm?ki?s first ?loka, would this point to an original >>>> *R?m?ya?a* that is considerably older than the *R?m?ya?a* we now have? >>>> Could the *R?m?ya?a* as now extant have been reworked, updated in >>>> language so to speak, from an earlier original? For example, F. E. Pargiter >>>> in his detailed study, *The Pur?na Text of the Dynasties of the Kali >>>> Age* (1913), found considerable evidence that in the oldest pur??as ( >>>> *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Matsya*) the verses had been Sanskritized from >>>> an earlier literary Prakrit, and that these Sanskrit verses had in turn >>>> been condensed and rewritten directly in Sanskrit in some other pur??as ( >>>> *Vi??u*, *Bh?gavata*). >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> David Reigle >>>> >>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Goldman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> On behalf of all the scholars who have been involved with the >>>>> decades-long project to translate and annotate the critical edition of the *V?lm?ki >>>>> R?m?ya?a*, Dr. Sally Sutherland Goldman and I are happy to announce >>>>> the publication of the seventh and final volume of the work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *The R?m?ya?a of V?lm?ki: An Epic of Ancient India,* *Volume >>>>> VII: Uttarak???a* >>>>> Introduction, Translation, and Annotation by Robert P. Goldman & Sally >>>>> J. Sutherland Goldman >>>>> >>>>> Hardcover | December 2016 | *$175.00* | *?129.95* | ISBN: >>>>> 9780691168845 >>>>> 1544 pp. | 6 x 9 | 1 color illus. 1 line illus. 5 tables. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. R. P. Goldman >>>>> Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South >>>>> and Southeast Asian Studies >>>>> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 >>>>> The University of California at Berkeley >>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >>>>> Tel: 510-642-4089 >>>>> Fax: 510-642-2409 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitakjl at wfu.edu Mon Nov 21 12:58:52 2016 From: whitakjl at wfu.edu (Jarrod Whitaker) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 16 07:58:52 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought In-Reply-To: <561172f3-fb44-699d-b75c-2089f5112d4d@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <960f4be5-794c-56b0-f0d4-199f59f2bf52@wfu.edu> Some of you may be interested in this article on rice cultivation in the Indus Valley Civilization: http://phys.org/news/2016-11-rice-farming-india-older-thought.html JW Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. Associate Professor, Graduate Program Director, Department for the Study of Religions. Faculty, Department of Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies. Wake Forest University P.O. Box 7212 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 whitakjl at wfu.edu p 336.758.4162 From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Mon Nov 21 13:30:59 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 16 13:30:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought In-Reply-To: <960f4be5-794c-56b0-f0d4-199f59f2bf52@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <57D8E689-AFFE-4405-BDBE-74A4D57E1A30@austin.utexas.edu> But how reliable is the data? The article does not provide any. > On Nov 21, 2016, at 6:58 AM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > > Some of you may be interested in this article on rice cultivation in the Indus Valley Civilization: > > http://phys.org/news/2016-11-rice-farming-india-older-thought.html > > > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, > Graduate Program Director, > Department for the Study of Religions. > > Faculty, Department of Women's, > Gender and Sexuality Studies. > > Wake Forest University > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Mon Nov 21 14:39:10 2016 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 16 14:39:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought In-Reply-To: <960f4be5-794c-56b0-f0d4-199f59f2bf52@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <713E5559-F61D-46A6-A149-A116D5459599@fas.harvard.edu> Dear Jarrod and All, two points: The cultivation of rice in the Indus Civilization is old news. I have known this for some 10 years, from my colleague here at HARP, the Harvard Excavation project at Harappa. Will ask him (Richard Meadow) As for rice: genetic studies, also some 10 yeras ago, have shown that cultivated Indian rice is a hybrid of Chinese (?Japonica?) and local Indian wild rice (Nivara), see publications by Yoichiro Sato, Chikyu..Inst., Kyoto. The much hyped (also for early Iron) Lahuradeva in eastern UP., with its 6 rice grains, represents wild rice (Nivara) ? as can be seen in their pytholiths. Cultivated rice enters the picture only around 2500-2000 BCE (from memory) I will look up the data, over Thanksgiving. Cheers, Michael > On Nov 21, 2016, at 7:58 AM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > > Some of you may be interested in this article on rice cultivation in the Indus Valley Civilization: > > http://phys.org/news/2016-11-rice-farming-india-older-thought.html > > > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, > Graduate Program Director, > Department for the Study of Religions. > > Faculty, Department of Women's, > Gender and Sexuality Studies. > > Wake Forest University > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From julia.shaw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Nov 21 19:02:39 2016 From: julia.shaw at ucl.ac.uk (Shaw, Julia) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 16 19:02:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] rice Message-ID: Jarrod: the work of Dorian Fuller and colleagues here at UCL Institute of Archaeology has been focussed on pinning down the chronology of Neolithic agriculture in South Asia, including rice, for the last couple of decaded. I suggest you look up his work.. The chronology of domesticated rice in the Gangetic valley dates to c. 2nd millennium BC, possibly earlier, and of course Indus Bronze age urbanism in the NW builds on a much much older history of domesticated agriculture, based on the 'winter wheat / barley crop package' from c. 8th millennium BC. Best wishes, Julia Shaw --------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Julia Shaw Lecturer in South Asian Archaeology Institute of Archaeology UCL 31-34 Gordon Square London WC1H 0PY http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/staff/shaw Dear Jarrod and All, two points: The cultivation of rice in the Indus Civilization is old news. I have known this for some 10 years, from my colleague here at HARP, the Harvard Excavation project at Harappa. Will ask him (Richard Meadow) As for rice: genetic studies, also some 10 yeras ago, have shown that cultivated Indian rice is a hybrid of Chinese (?Japonica?) and local Indian wild rice (Nivara), see publications by Yoichiro Sato, Chikyu..Inst., Kyoto. The much hyped (also for early Iron) Lahuradeva in eastern UP., with its 6 rice grains, represents wild rice (Nivara) ? as can be seen in their pytholiths. Cultivated rice enters the picture only around 2500-2000 BCE (from memory) I will look up the data, over Thanksgiving. Cheers, Michael > On Nov 21, 2016, at 7:58 AM, Jarrod Whitaker wrote: > > Some of you may be interested in this article on rice cultivation in the Indus Valley Civilization: > > http://phys.org/news/2016-11-rice-farming-india-older-thought.html [http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2016/ricefarmingi.jpg] Rice farming in India much older than thought, used as 'summer crop' by Indus civilization phys.org Latest research on archaeological sites of the ancient Indus Civilisation, which stretched across what is now Pakistan and northwest India during the Bronze Age, has revealed that domesticated rice farming in South Asia began far earlier than previously believed, and may have developed in tandem with - rather than as a result of - rice domestication in China. > > > JW > > Jarrod Whitaker, Ph.D. > Associate Professor, > Graduate Program Director, > Department for the Study of Religions. > > Faculty, Department of Women's, > Gender and Sexuality Studies. > > Wake Forest University > P.O. Box 7212 > Winston-Salem, NC 27109 > whitakjl at wfu.edu > p 336.758.4162 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.shaw at ucl.ac.uk Mon Nov 21 19:08:27 2016 From: julia.shaw at ucl.ac.uk (Shaw, Julia) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 16 19:08:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought (Land, Water, Settlement project) Message-ID: In response to this query, the 'article' (if one can call it that!) reproduces an image from the Land, Water, Settlement Project is based at Cambridge and directed by Cameron Petrie, and now superceded by the Two Rains Project . And yes, the data is reliable!! THe work of Jennifer Bates in particular is relevant here. More details: http://www.arch.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/two-rains Jennifer Bates https://cambridge.academia.edu/JenniferBates Dorian Fuller's Early Rice Project http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/early_rice_fuller Best wishes Julia ------------------------------------------- Dr Julia Shaw Lecturer in South Asian Archaeology Institute of Archaeology UCL 31-34 Gordon Square London WC1H 0PY http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/staff/shaw Message: 7 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:30:59 +0000 From: "Olivelle, J P" To: Jarrod Whitaker Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought Message-ID: <57D8E689-AFFE-4405-BDBE-74A4D57E1A30 at austin.utexas.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" But how reliable is the data? The article does not provide any. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon Nov 21 23:54:41 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 00:54:41 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Several names of geographical objects in India Message-ID: Dear List, I would be extremely grateful for your help re formal romanized (*ISO 15919*) forms of: 1. Konkani: *Basilica of Bom Jesus *(Goa) 2. Marathi: *Basilica of Bom Jesus *(Goa); *St. Thomas Cathedral *(Mumbai) 3. Hindi: *St. James Church *(Delhi) and, 4. Maldivian (according to Maldivian Government 1987 System): *Friday Mosque* (Male) Thanks, in advance --- Artur Karp (ret.) Katedra Azji Po?udniowej/Chair of South Asian Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski/University of Warsaw Polska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 03:38:21 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 09:08:21 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought (Land, Water, Settlement project) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sharing a related research publication. A dailymail news report here has the following words: While the ancient people relied upon heavy and regular monsoons between 9,000 and 7,000 years ago to water their crops, after this period, evidence at Bhirrana shows people continued to survive despite changing weather patterns. ?Increasing evidences suggest that these people shifted their crop patterns from the large-grained cereals like wheat and barley during the early part of intensified monsoon to drought-resistant species of small millets and rice in the later part of declining monsoon and thereby changed their subsistence strategy,? they continued. However, changing the crops they grew and harvested resulted in the ?de-urbanisation? of cities and no need for large food storage facilities. Instead, the people swapped to personal storage spaces to look after their families. ?Because these later crops generally have much lower yield, the organised large storage system of mature Harappan period was abandoned giving rise to smaller more individual household based crop processing and storage system and could act as catalyst for the de-urbanisation of the Harappan civilization rather than an abrupt collapse,? the team wrote. On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Shaw, Julia wrote: > In response to this query, the 'article' (if one can call it that!) > reproduces an image from the Land, Water, Settlement Project is based at > Cambridge and directed by Cameron Petrie, and now superceded by the Two > Rains Project . And yes, the data is reliable!! THe work of Jennifer Bates > in particular is relevant here. > > More details: > > http://www.arch.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/two-rains > > > Jennifer Bates > > https://cambridge.academia.edu/JenniferBates > > > Dorian Fuller's Early Rice Project > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/early_rice_fuller > > > Best wishes > > Julia > > ------------------------------------------- > > Dr Julia Shaw > > Lecturer in South Asian Archaeology > > Institute of Archaeology UCL > > 31-34 Gordon Square > > London WC1H 0PY > > > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/staff/shaw > > > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:30:59 +0000 > From: "Olivelle, J P" > To: Jarrod Whitaker > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Rice farming in India much older than thought > Message-ID: <57D8E689-AFFE-4405-BDBE-74A4D57E1A30 at austin.utexas.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > But how reliable is the data? The article does not provide any. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IVCOxygenIsotopereserch.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1370270 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nmcgover at fandm.edu Tue Nov 22 17:23:09 2016 From: nmcgover at fandm.edu (Nathan McGovern) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 11:23:09 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lueders In-Reply-To: <713E5559-F61D-46A6-A149-A116D5459599@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <92f34d9d-799f-3f8c-b9ec-109ef81dac1f@fandm.edu> Dear colleagues: Would someone be able to provide me with a PDF of Lueders's volume on early Brahmi inscriptions (vol. 10 of EI)? My institution is not able to provide it to me via ILL. Thanks, Nathan McGovern Assistant Professor of Religious Studies University of Wisconsin-Whitewater From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in Tue Nov 22 20:31:02 2016 From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 02:01:02 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA Message-ID: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nagaraj Paturi > To: Toke Knudsen > Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 23:50:54 +0530 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA > Dear Toke, > > The extremely popular ??nti mantra saha n? vavatu etc. is the joint wish > of the guru and ?i?ya. > > I've always assumed rather saha n?v avatu (from av, avati). Are you interpreting it differently (as containing a different verb)? Yours Alex -- Alex Watson Professor of Indian Philosophy Ashoka University *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Nov 22 20:44:52 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 10:44:52 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII 4 Message-ID: Dear Friends, Would one of you also have CII 4 in soft copy? ??????, J -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 21:02:03 2016 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 22:02:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See here . Best. Manu -- Emmanuel Francis Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) http://ceias.ehess.fr/ http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, Universit?t Hamburg) http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis 2016-11-22 21:44 GMT+01:00 Jesse Knutson : > Dear Friends, Would one of you also have CII 4 in soft copy? ??????, J > > -- > Jesse Ross Knutson PhD > Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific > Languages and Literatures > University of Hawai'i at M?noa > 461 Spalding > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Tue Nov 22 21:12:46 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 11:12:46 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CII 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so much Manu--you are a lifesaver. On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Manu Francis wrote: > See here > > . > Best. > Manu > -- > > Emmanuel Francis > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tude de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > http://ceias.ehess.fr/ > http://ceias.ehess.fr/index.php?1725 > http://rcsi.hypotheses.org/ > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture (SFB 950, > Universit?t Hamburg) > http://www.manuscript-cultures.uni-hamburg.de/index_e.html > https://cnrs.academia.edu/emmanuelfrancis > > 2016-11-22 21:44 GMT+01:00 Jesse Knutson : > >> Dear Friends, Would one of you also have CII 4 in soft copy? ??????, J >> >> -- >> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD >> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific >> Languages and Literatures >> University of Hawai'i at M?noa >> 461 Spalding >> > > -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 02:22:41 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 07:52:41 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nau + avatu = naavavatu ava- rakshaNE Did not differ with your view. Did I give a different impression? May be a spacing between words or punctuation caused the misunderstanding. On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Alex Watson wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Nagaraj Paturi >> To: Toke Knudsen >> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info" >> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 23:50:54 +0530 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Query re: guru-ziSya and paramparA >> Dear Toke, >> >> The extremely popular ??nti mantra saha n? vavatu etc. is the joint wish >> of the guru and ?i?ya. >> >> I've always assumed rather saha n?v avatu (from av, avati). > Are you interpreting it differently (as containing a different verb)? > > Yours Alex > > -- > Alex Watson > Professor of Indian Philosophy > Ashoka University > *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson > * > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Wed Nov 23 02:55:23 2016 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 16 16:55:23 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vijri, Ancient History of Saurashtra Message-ID: Dear Friends, Would anyone happen to have a soft copy of Vijri's Ancient History of Saurashtra? Best,J -- Jesse Ross Knutson PhD Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures University of Hawai'i at M?noa 461 Spalding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Wed Nov 23 05:30:25 2016 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 05:30:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lueders In-Reply-To: <92f34d9d-799f-3f8c-b9ec-109ef81dac1f@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Have you tried this ? Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths epigraphia-indica : Free Download ... - Internet Archive archive.org All volumes of Epigraphia Indica. Indian epigraphy. ??????????? ?????????? ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Nathan McGovern Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:23 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Lueders Dear colleagues: Would someone be able to provide me with a PDF of Lueders's volume on early Brahmi inscriptions (vol. 10 of EI)? My institution is not able to provide it to me via ILL. Thanks, Nathan McGovern Assistant Professor of Religious Studies University of Wisconsin-Whitewater _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) INDOLOGY Info Page listinfo.indology.info INDOLOGY is an internet discussion group whose primary purpose is to provide a forum for discussion among professional scholars of classical Indian (South Asian ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elena.mucciarelli at indo.uni-tuebingen.de Wed Nov 23 12:48:15 2016 From: elena.mucciarelli at indo.uni-tuebingen.de (Elena Mucciarelli) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 13:48:15 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Indology nowadays: A Winter School on the Legacy of Paul Thieme 21st-22nd Februar Message-ID: <8466861F-AF3D-44DD-B4F8-A32048BA9B07@indo.uni-tuebingen.de> Dear members of the list, we have the pleasure to announce that the workshop ?Indology nowadays: A Winter School on the Legacy of Paul Thieme? will take place on the 21st-22nd of February 2017 in the venue of the University Library of T?bingen. Brief presentation: The purpose of the Winter School is to familiarize young scholars and researchers with the intellectual legacy of such disciplines as philology and cultural studies. This period of significant change in university education and academic principles has profoundly affected the way we label our departments, and how specialisations are defined: the ?disciplines? have been often substituted with ?areal/thematic studies?. ?Science? and ?Technology? bear their influence on the parameters that shape research criteria: we shifted from ?knowledge-production? to ?problem-solving?. Is this an effective parameter for Humanities? Is Philology an effective tool for investigating facts using, in Paul Thieme?s words, ?The texts as our informants?? One important aspect of applying philological methods is their use for analysing, e. g., narratives that form part of political discourse as can be seen in contemporary India, a country of increasing importance. There (and increasingly in other parts of the world with a considerable Indian diaspora), main actors on the political and cultural stage use important texts from the Hindu traditions to support claims of cultural superiority, and here philology can contribute not only to analyse this discourse but also to delineate texts and contexts of these traditions. By patiently reading and rereading the respective texts it is possible to unveil the complex interaction of those factors which together constitute the traditions which have been used in these discourse and to show the misrepresentations that have been politically motivated. Both students and scholars are welcome. Participation is free of charge. Please see the provisional programme below. Further details on the organization will follow soon. Best regards, Dr. Renate S?hnen-Thieme, Dr.Frank K?hler, Dr. Elena Mucciarelli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IndolodyNowadays_Programme.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1127487 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 13:38:55 2016 From: dr.rupalimokashi at gmail.com (Dr. Rupali Mokashi) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 19:08:55 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] article by Percy Brown Message-ID: I am searching for an article by Percy Brown 'The Rock Cut Monastery at Kondane, Journal of the Indian Society of Oriental Art JISOA, Vol-VII, p. 170. Could please help? regards Rupali Mokashi http://rupalimokashi.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vera.lazzaretti at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 17:22:48 2016 From: vera.lazzaretti at gmail.com (Vera Lazzaretti) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 22:52:48 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Takeover of temples by government in North India Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I would be interested to hear about any work or scholar that addresses the topic of temple takeover by regional/national government, and its consequences for workers, devotees, and rituals in North Indian temple realities. While I know some studies focused on temples? complex in South India which explore the transitions of their management from one run by ritual specialists, private families or monastic orders to government institutions, public trusts or the Archaeological Survey of India, it seems that similar issues have not been explored much in North Indian temple realities. The government management of temples in many regions of South India seems to be nowadays a sort of establishment, which has of course many critiques, some of which materialise in numerous court cases. However, to my knowledge the transition to government and presumably ?secular? managements seems to be an established pattern for many successful North Indian temple realities, for many reasons, yet to be fully understood. I?m working around one of these cases - the K??? Vi?van?th in Varanasi. The topic is widely treated in Indian media and voices against the government takeover have often been raised by the Hindu ?right? claiming the dispossession of Hindus? religious properties; however, a critical study of these sorts of transitions and their repercussions for religious and political spheres would contribute to a better understanding of contemporary Hinduism. With best wishes and many thanks, Vera Lazzaretti Post-doctoral Fellow University of Milan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de Wed Nov 23 20:49:21 2016 From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (PD Dr. Heike Oberlin) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 21:49:21 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] learning material for Sanskrit in Braille Message-ID: <054817DA-C287-455C-A4E2-E9335E1B0977@uni-tuebingen.de> Dear colleagues, is anyone aware about useful material or a digital utility to learn Sanskrit in Braille? Best regards, Heike Oberlin ------------------- PD Dr. phil. habil. Heike Oberlin General Manager & Scientific Coordinator (AOI) Associate Professor (Indology) Eberhard-Karls-Universit?t Tuebingen Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI) Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion Keplerstr. 2 (room 139) ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066 heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/aoi/indologie/mitarbeiter/heike-oberlin-moser.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anand.venkatkrishnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 21:10:44 2016 From: anand.venkatkrishnan at gmail.com (Anand Venkatkrishnan) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 16 21:10:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] learning material for Sanskrit in Braille In-Reply-To: <054817DA-C287-455C-A4E2-E9335E1B0977@uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: Dear Dr. Oberlin, I don't know of the advancement in Braille, but I taught Sanskrit to a blind student who used a voice recognition system that enunciated what he typed and read in plain text. It was not advanced enough to recognize diacritical marks, but there was a slight but recognizable difference in the intonation between upper-case and lower-case letters. Thus we used the Harvard-Kyoto transliteration scheme to develop an archive of notes (paradigms, forms, etc.) and exercises. Regards, Anand On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 8:49 PM, PD Dr. Heike Oberlin < heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > is anyone aware about useful material or a digital utility to learn > Sanskrit in Braille? > > Best regards, > Heike Oberlin > > > ------------------- > *PD Dr. phil. habil. Heike Oberlin* > General Manager & Scientific Coordinator (AOI) > Associate Professor (Indology) > > > Eberhard-Karls-Universit?t Tuebingen > Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI) > Dept. of Indology and Comparative Religion > Keplerstr. 2 (room 139) ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany > > Phone +49 7071 29-74005 ? Mobile +49 176 20030066 > heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de > > > *http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/aoi/indologie/mitarbeiter/heike-oberlin-moser.html > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Anand Venkatkrishnan Junior Research Fellow Balliol College, Oxford Ph.D. South Asian Religions Columbia University (2015) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 04:49:01 2016 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 15:49:01 +1100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas Message-ID: Dear Friends, A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? *could* be indirectly translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is what my respondent was referring to. While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a professional yoga teacher). As *many* practitioners of modern yoga assume this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori concept, this has made me think about the historicity and development of the yamas and niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS as 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior to the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate numbers/locations, etc) Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite interesting. Thank you. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia - Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite song s The Philosophy of Cycling -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu Thu Nov 24 07:43:51 2016 From: Bradley.Clough at mso.umt.edu (Clough, Bradley) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 07:43:51 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, The 5 yamas are identical to Jainism?s 5 mahavratas. I assume the mahavratas predate the list of yamas in the PYS. I?m sure someone more expert than I in Jainism could tell you what date they first appear in Jain scriptures. Best Wishes, Brad Dr. Bradley S. Clough Liberal Studies/Asian Religions LA 101 The University of Montana 32 Campus Drive Missoula, MT 59812 bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu Phone: 406-243-2837 Fax: 406-243-4076 On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:49 PM, patrick mccartney > wrote: Dear Friends, A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? could be indirectly translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is what my respondent was referring to. While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a professional yoga teacher). As many practitioners of modern yoga assume this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori concept, this has made me think about the historicity and development of the yamas and niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS as 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior to the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate numbers/locations, etc) Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite interesting. Thank you. All the best, Patrick McCartney, PhD Fellow School of Culture, History & Language College of the Asia-Pacific The Australian National University Canberra, Australia, 0200 Skype - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 Twitter - @psdmccartney academia * Linkedin Edanz #yogabodyANU2016 symposium Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land Ep 2 - Total-am Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married A Day in our Ashram Stop animation short film of Shakuntala Forced to Clean Human Waste One of my favourite songs The Philosophy of Cycling _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 16:11:34 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 09:11:34 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_[INDOLOGY]_two_artha=C5=9B=C4=81stra_sources?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some manuscripts of the C?k?u??ya are listed in NCC v.7, p.1. It's described as a work in 67 sutras "with elaboration and s?rthasa?grahas?tras under each s?tra". ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 18 November 2016 at 12:46, Mark McClish wrote: > Dear Arlo, > > I believe those references are to the *Artha??stra* commentaries > *Jayama?gal?* and *C??akya??k?*. The *C?k?u??ya *is supposed to be an > independent work. > > I have since found the following entry in Singh?s *Bibliography of > Kautiliya Arthasastra*: > > 459. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. "Caksusiya." Journal of Sri Venkatesvara > Oriental Institute, Vol. 4, Part 1, 1943, pp. 123-128, Vol. 6, Part 2, pp. > 33-53. > > 460. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. " Chakshushiya: an ancient work on > Arthasastra." Annals of Sri Venkatesvara Oriental Institute, Vol. 1, part > 4, 1940, pp. 79-89. > > Does anyone know where these might be available online? > > All best, > Mark > > > > On Nov 17, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Arlo Griffiths > wrote: > > Dear Mark, > > Could the second item be the one whose accurate bibliography is > elaborately stated in n. 49 of von Hin?ber's 2005 article on > bh?micchidrany?ya > >? > > Best wishes, > > Arlo Griffiths > > > www.jstor.org > > www.jstor.org > Title: Der bh?micchidrany?ya Created Date: 20160807204254Z > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Mark > McClish > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:54 PM > *To:* indology > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources > > Dear friends, > > I?m having trouble locating two sources on artha??stra, and I hoped > someone on the list might be able to help me. I give here the bibliographic > information as I have it. > > *1. Ruben, W. 1929. Study in the Artha??stra. Dharwar.* (This is cited in > Sternbach?s *Bibliography of Kau?ilya Artha??stra*, which has a number of > errors, as well as, at least, Botto?s article on *dvaidh?bh?va* in *India > Maior*). Worldcat has the following, but I couldn?t get it from the > British Library to see if it is the same: > > > > *2. Kavi, Ramakrishna. [title unknown: multiple articles on and text of > the C?k?u??ya Artha??stra]. Journal of the Venkatesvara Oriental Institute. > 1:79-89; 3:99-116; 4:123-128; 4:129-140; 6:129-140(?). *This comes from > Kane I p. 152ff. > > With thanks in advance for any help hunting down any of these. > > All best, > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kkk.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 102085 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 16:21:01 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 09:21:01 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, the documentation in the "document header" of each SARIT file notes that the encoding is IAST, and notes where that differs from the ISO standard. Thus, the document header of the Astangahrdayasamhita file, to pick one at random, has this statement: Editorial Description The published edition from which this e-text was transcribed is printed in the Devan?gar? script. The electronic text below is in a lossless transliteration using the Latin alphabet. The transliteration scheme used is the IAST (The International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration ). IAST differs in small ways from ISO 15919, but is preferred by most working Sanskrit scholars. Conversion of this file to ISO 15919 can be achieved by performing the following replacements throughout the file: ? -> r? and ? -> ? Text divison is as Devan?gar? ("ityevam" not "ity evam".) Initial vowel elision for avagraha is reversed and marked with a + sign: e.g., "prathamo+adhy?ya?" The principle behind the SARIT repository is that the e-texts should be documented, so that any quirks or editorial decisions are explict and up-front. In addition, there is a revision history for each file. So if you take the file and do something to it, you brieflly note what you've done before re-uploading the file. Best, Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 18 November 2016 at 18:23, Harry Spier wrote: > I've just looked at the Sanskrit Library, SARIT and GRETIL texts and I see > that these use IAST transliteration for anusvara (dot under m) while > Muktabodha digital library uses ISO15919 for anusvara (dot on top of m). > > Harry Spier > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at >> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to >> Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus >> diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software >> >> - TranscodeFile (Java program) >> >> >> which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has >> a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using >> precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with >> searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why >> Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all >> our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and >> searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired >> (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are >> preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* >> available at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the >> issues comprehensively. >> >> Yours, >> Peter >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier > > wrote: >> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >>> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >>> it in two glyphs. >>> >>> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >>> >>> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >>> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >>> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >>> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >>> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >>> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either >>> GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ******************* >> Peter M. Scharf >> scharfpm7 at g mail.com >> ******************* >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 16:30:36 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 09:30:36 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On this issue of combining accents or single pre-combined glyphs, Andrew Ollett has already stated the issues. The Unicode Consortium's documentation about this business is at - http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ As Andrew said, the terminology is "Normalization Form," and there are several of these, and quite a few points to consider when writing programs to work with Unicode. The Unicode consortium makes available algorithms for dealing with all this, and modern text-processing software libraries for Unicode are commonly aware of Normalization Forms and "do the right thing," so the end-user doesn't have to worry. This doesn't always work, though. I find that when I cut-n-paste from WorldCat, for example, into JabRef, all the accented letters are retained in NFD format, and it's annoying. Mostly, when we talk about typing IAST with pre-composed, single-glyph characters like ?, we're doing what the Unicode people call "Normal Form Composed" or NFC. The files in SARIT and elsewhere are in this format. Best, Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 18 November 2016 at 05:58, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a single > glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing it in > two glyphs. > > This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. > > For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital > library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the > same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" > http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html > combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. > So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated > word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either > GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Nov 24 17:41:39 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 18:41:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Several names of geographical objects in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Thanks to a letter from Dr Tyler Williams (re St James Church in Delhi) am now convinced that Indic scripts come nicely through to my post. That being the case, I would like to ask you for formal Hindi names of some historical Indian buildings/monuments - as they are written in Devanagari. I can easily transliterate them - using myself the ISO 15919 rules of Romanization. The buildings/monuments I need the Hindi names of are mainly churches. They are to be included in the World Historical Buildings/Monuments List - being prepared for publication by the Head Office of Geodesy and Cartography (G??wny Urz?d Geodezji i Kartografii), Warsaw, Poland. A tentative list of South Asian historical buildings/monuments can be found at: https://www.academia.edu/23167699/Nazwy_budowli_-_Azja_Po%C5%82udniowa_Names_of_buildings_and_other_architectural_monuments_in_South_Asia_ South Asian Onomastics (geographical objects and place names), already published (2005), is available at: https://www.academia.edu/23167699/Nazwy_budowli_-_Azja_Po%C5%82udniowa_Names_of_buildings_and_other_architectural_monuments_in_South_Asia_ *Hindi names of: * Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health (near Nagapppatinam) San Thome Basilica (Chennai) St. Paul's Cathedral (Kolkata) St.Thomas Kathedral(Mumbai) St. Francis Church (Cochin) St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (Malayattur by Ernakulam) Chennakesava Temple (Belur) *Marathi *(Devanagari)* name of:* Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) *Konkani (*Devanagari)* name of:* Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) *Urdu name of:* Iron Pillar (Delhi) While expressing - in advance - my gratitude for your help, let me add that the list with its transliterated (acc. to ISO 15919) forms is expected to come in useful to all involved in research centering on South Asia, its geography, history and antiquities. >From the late Novemberish Warsaw (only 3 ?C, but no rain) - Artur Karp (ret.) Katedra Azji Po?udniowej (South Asian Studies Chair) Uniwersytet Warszawski (University of Warsaw) Polska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.pasedach at googlemail.com Thu Nov 24 17:41:41 2016 From: peter.pasedach at googlemail.com (Peter Mukunda Pasedach) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 18:41:41 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, Bradley and others, the question of the origin of the Yamas and Niyamas is indeed a fascinating one, and I would also be very much interested to hear more from somebody more knowledgeable about the scriptural evidence of the five great vows of the Jainas. What I have managed to find so far is the fourth chapter of the Da?avaik?lika S?tra (Dasave?liya Sutta(?)), in whose s?tras 11-15 we get five great vows, corresponding to the yamas in order, but not yet using the familiar terms: 1) pr???tip?t?d virama?am (=ahi?s?), 2) m???v?d?d virama?am (=satya), 3) adattad?n?d virama?am (=asteya), 4) maithun?d virama?am (=brahmacarya) and 5) parigrah?d virama?am (=aparigraha). I am taking these terms from the sanskrit ch?ya of K.C. Lalwani (1973) who in his foreword dates it to "around B.C. 429". In the Pra?navy?kara?as?tra (I have access to it via the 1962 Shri Akhil Bharat S. S. Jain Shastroddhara Samiti edition from Rajkot, the following passage a quote from the sanskrit ch?ya on p. 552.) we have "prathama? bhavaty ahi?s?, dvit?ya? satyavacanam iti praj?aptam | datt?nuj??tasa?vara? ca, brahmacary?(ed. has 'a')parigrahatva? ca || 2 ||" So here we almost arrive at the terms used by Pata?jali in Yogas?tra 2.30. Best, Peter On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Clough, Bradley wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > The 5 yamas are identical to Jainism?s 5 mahavratas. I assume the mahavratas predate the list of yamas in the PYS. I?m sure someone more expert than I in Jainism could tell you what date they first appear in Jain scriptures. > > Best Wishes, > Brad > > > Dr. Bradley S. Clough > Liberal Studies/Asian Religions > LA 101 > The University of Montana > 32 Campus Drive > Missoula, MT 59812 > > bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu > Phone: 406-243-2837 > Fax: 406-243-4076 > > On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:49 PM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? could be indirectly translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is what my respondent was referring to. > > While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a professional yoga teacher). As many practitioners of modern yoga assume this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori concept, this has made me think about the historicity and development of the yamas and niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. > > Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS as 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior to the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate numbers/locations, etc) > > Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite interesting. > > > Thank you. > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > * > > Linkedin > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > A Day in our Ashram > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite songs > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Nov 24 17:49:34 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 18:49:34 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Several names of geographical objects in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?Sorry, ?South Asian Onomastics (geographical objects and place names), already published (2005), is available at: https://www.academia.edu/9062314/Azja_Po%C5%82udniowa_Artur_Karp_ed._Nazewnictwo_geograficzne_%C5%9Awiata_Zeszyt_4_G%C5%82%C3%B3wny_Urz%C4%85d_Geodezji_i_Kartografii_Warszawa_2005 Artur Karp 2016-11-24 18:41 GMT+01:00 Artur Karp : > Dear Colleagues, > > Thanks to a letter from Dr Tyler Williams (re St James Church in Delhi) am > now convinced that Indic scripts come nicely through to my post. > > That being the case, I would like to ask you for formal Hindi names of > some historical Indian buildings/monuments - as they are written in > Devanagari. I can easily transliterate them - using myself the ISO 15919 > rules of Romanization. > > The buildings/monuments I need the Hindi names of are mainly churches. > They are to be included in the World Historical Buildings/Monuments List - > being prepared for publication by the Head Office of Geodesy and > Cartography (G??wny Urz?d Geodezji i Kartografii), Warsaw, Poland. A > tentative list of South Asian historical buildings/monuments can be found > at: > > https://www.academia.edu/23167699/Nazwy_budowli_-_Azja_ > Po%C5%82udniowa_Names_of_buildings_and_other_architectural_monuments_in_ > South_Asia_ > > South Asian Onomastics (geographical objects and place names), already > published (2005), is available at: > > https://www.academia.edu/23167699/Nazwy_budowli_-_Azja_ > Po%C5%82udniowa_Names_of_buildings_and_other_architectural_monuments_in_ > South_Asia_ > > > *Hindi names of: * > > Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) > Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health (near Nagapppatinam) > San Thome Basilica (Chennai) > St. Paul's Cathedral (Kolkata) > St.Thomas Kathedral(Mumbai) > St. Francis Church (Cochin) > St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (Malayattur by Ernakulam) > > Chennakesava Temple (Belur) > > > *Marathi *(Devanagari)* name of:* > > Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) > > > *Konkani (*Devanagari)* name of:* > > Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) > > *Urdu name of:* > > Iron Pillar (Delhi) > > > While expressing - in advance - my gratitude for your help, let me add > that the list with its transliterated (acc. to ISO 15919) forms is expected > to come in useful to all involved in research centering on South Asia, its > geography, history and antiquities. > > From the late Novemberish Warsaw (only 3 ?C, but no rain) - > > Artur Karp (ret.) > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej (South Asian Studies Chair) > Uniwersytet Warszawski (University of Warsaw) > Polska > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 18:24:50 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 13:24:50 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear list members, Dominik said: each SARIT file notes that the encoding is IAST, and notes where that > differs from the ISO standard. > > . . . . .. . . > (The International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration > ). > IAST differs in small ways from ISO 15919, but is preferred by most working > Sanskrit scholars. > > The link given on the SARIT page is to the Wikipedia IAST page . This wikipedia IAST page lists the differences between ISO 15919 and IAST but it has major errors. It says ISO 15919 uses e and o with macron over it where IAST uses e and o. This is incorrect. ISO 15919 agrees with IAST in usage of e and o in transliterating devanagari. Note the ISO 15919 wikipedia also has this error. It says to use e and o with macron where the actual ISO document says to use e and o without macron. I've checked the actual ISO 15919 document. Thanks, Harry Spier > > > ? > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > ?,? > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > ?,? > > Department of History and Classics > > ?,? > University of Alberta, Canada > ?.? > > South Asia at the U of A: > > ?sas.ualberta.ca? > ?? > > > On 18 November 2016 at 18:23, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> I've just looked at the Sanskrit Library, SARIT and GRETIL texts and I >> see that these use IAST transliteration for anusvara (dot under m) while >> Muktabodha digital library uses ISO15919 for anusvara (dot on top of m). >> >> Harry Spier >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf >> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members, >>> The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at >>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to >>> Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus >>> diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software >>> >>> - TranscodeFile (Java program) >>> >>> >>> which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has >>> a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using >>> precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with >>> searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why >>> Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all >>> our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and >>> searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired >>> (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are >>> preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* >>> available at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the >>> issues comprehensively. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Peter >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier < >>> hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear list members, >>>> >>>> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >>>> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >>>> it in two glyphs. >>>> >>>> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >>>> >>>> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >>>> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >>>> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >>>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >>>> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >>>> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >>>> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from >>>> either GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find >>>> anything. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Harry Spier >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ******************* >>> Peter M. Scharf >>> scharfpm7 at g mail.com >>> ******************* >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Thu Nov 24 19:37:56 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 20:37:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues Wikipedia is known for its amiguities and blunders. In ISO 15919 (SA languages) e/o with macron-over (?/?) appear in the Dravidian languages: *Tamil, * *??* ke ?? k? *??* ko *??* k? *Kannada* *? *e *? *? *?* o *?* ? *Malayalam* ? e *?* ? *?* *? * o *?* ? ? T ?hanks, Artur Karp? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 22:52:57 2016 From: hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 16 17:52:57 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dominik also said, > IAST differs in small ways from ISO 15919, but is preferred by most > working Sanskrit scholars. > > As far as I can see looking at the actual ISO document. The only difference between ISO 15919 and IAST for transliterating devanagari sanskrit is the letter for anusvara. M with dot on top versus m with dot underneath. Is part of the reason for Sanskrit scholars opting for IAST instead of ISO 15919 that the ISO 15919 document costs over $200.00 and is not publicly available. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Fri Nov 25 06:02:39 2016 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 06:02:39 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1479963040.S.13908.12439.f4-234-102.1480053759.2017@webmail.rediffmail.com> A better term for 'compassion' may be KARUNA' rather than being Ahimsa' ALAKENDU DAS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 13:02:59 2016 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 08:02:59 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, Archive.org Message-ID: HI All Someone kindly uploaded a scanned pdf, etc., of Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar to Archive.org. Pages 237-242 are missing (and other pages are quite dark) Might someone have access to a clean, complete copy and be able to re-upload it? Cheers James -- James Hartzell, PhD(2x) Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy and Center for Buddhist Studies Columbia University, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 14:15:18 2016 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 09:15:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, Archive.org In-Reply-To: <093915ac-f407-5f4b-8d9f-db2d172e7ad7@uni-bonn.de> Message-ID: Thanks very much Peter--both the 2nd and "3rd" edition links you provided seem to be in good shape. For others who might need to know, the faulty copy is at this link https://archive.org/stream/sanskritgrammari00whituoft#page/244/mode/2up Cheers On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Am 25.11.2016 um 14:02 schrieb James Hartzell: > > Someone kindly uploaded a scanned pdf, etc., of Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar > to Archive.org. > > Pages 237-242 are missing (and other pages are quite dark) > > Might someone have access to a clean, complete copy and be able to > re-upload it? > > > There is more than one copy of Whitney's Grammar on Archive.org, some > examples: > > The first edition (1879): > > A Sanskrit grammar : including both the classical language, and the older > dialects, of Veda and Brahmana / by William Dwight Whitney. - Leipzig : > Breitkopf and H?rtel, 1879. - (Bibliothek indogermanischer Grammatiken ; 2) > > URL: > > URL: > > > The German translation by Heinrich Zimmer (also 1879): > > URL: > > URL: > > URL: > > > A "3rd edition": > > A Sanskrit grammar : including both the classical language, and the older > dialects, of Veda and Brahmana / by William Dwight Whitney. - 3rd ed. - > Leipzig : Breitkopf & H?rtel ; Boston : Ginn, 1896. > > URL: > > > A reprint of the 2nd edition: > > Sanskrit grammar : including both the classical language, and the older > dialects, of Veda and Brahmana / by William Dwight Whitney. - 7th issue of > the 2nd ed. - Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University Press, 1950 > > URL: > > > and so on. > > So all you need to do is to search for other copies on Archive.org. > > Hope it helps > > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften > Bibliothek > Universit?t Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > D-53113 Bonn > > -- James Hartzell, PhD(2x) Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy and Center for Buddhist Studies Columbia University, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 14:27:20 2016 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 19:57:20 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas In-Reply-To: <1479963040.S.13908.12439.f4-234-102.1480053759.2017@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Alakenduji, the problem is not Sanskrit for English, it is the English for Sanskrit used by Patrickji's yoga practitioner ( respondent - professional yoga teacher) On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 11:32 AM, alakendu das < mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> wrote: > > > A better term for 'compassion' may be KARUNA' rather than being Ahimsa' > > > > ALAKENDU DAS > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de Fri Nov 25 15:18:37 2016 From: gruenen at sub.uni-goettingen.de (Gruenendahl, Reinhold) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 15:18:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, Archive.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <044C4CE033BD474EBE2ACACE8E4B1D940132AA1407@UM-EXCDAG-A06.um.gwdg.de> The copy of the GRETIL e-library can be found here: opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.20/CMD?ACT=SRCHA&IKT=1016&SRT=YOP&TRM=ppn+564094390 It has a fully searchable background text and a complete index/bookmarks. By the way, Whitney's "Roots" can be downloaded here: opac.sub.uni-goettingen.de/DB=1.20/CMD?ACT=SRCHA&IKT=1016&SRT=YOP&TRM=ppn+572650442 R. Gr?nendahl ________________________________ Von: INDOLOGY [indology-bounces at list.indology.info]" im Auftrag von "James Hartzell [james.hartzell at gmail.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 25. November 2016 15:15 An: Peter Wyzlic; Indology Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, Archive.org Thanks very much Peter--both the 2nd and "3rd" edition links you provided seem to be in good shape. For others who might need to know, the faulty copy is at this link https://archive.org/stream/sanskritgrammari00whituoft#page/244/mode/2up Cheers On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Peter Wyzlic > wrote: Am 25.11.2016 um 14:02 schrieb James Hartzell: Someone kindly uploaded a scanned pdf, etc., of Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar to Archive.org. Pages 237-242 are missing (and other pages are quite dark) Might someone have access to a clean, complete copy and be able to re-upload it? There is more than one copy of Whitney's Grammar on Archive.org, some examples: The first edition (1879): A Sanskrit grammar : including both the classical language, and the older dialects, of Veda and Brahmana / by William Dwight Whitney. - Leipzig : Breitkopf and H?rtel, 1879. - (Bibliothek indogermanischer Grammatiken ; 2) URL: URL: The German translation by Heinrich Zimmer (also 1879): URL: URL: URL: A "3rd edition": A Sanskrit grammar : including both the classical language, and the older dialects, of Veda and Brahmana / by William Dwight Whitney. - 3rd ed. - Leipzig : Breitkopf & H?rtel ; Boston : Ginn, 1896. URL: A reprint of the 2nd edition: Sanskrit grammar : including both the classical language, and the older dialects, of Veda and Brahmana / by William Dwight Whitney. - 7th issue of the 2nd ed. - Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University Press, 1950 URL: and so on. So all you need to do is to search for other copies on Archive.org. Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Bibliothek Universit?t Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn -- James Hartzell, PhD(2x) Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy and Center for Buddhist Studies Columbia University, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pf8 at soas.ac.uk Fri Nov 25 17:25:34 2016 From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 17:25:34 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Jainism and Buddhism, SOAS 17-18 March 2017 Message-ID: Please find here the preliminary programme of the workshop: https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/index.php?nd=2017-01-01&view=year -- Dr Peter Fl?gel Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies Department of Religions and Philosophies Faculty of Arts and Humanities School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu Fri Nov 25 22:15:21 2016 From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 17:15:21 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas Message-ID: Dear Patrick, If you are looking for compassion (karu??) in Pata?jali, you will find it at YS 1.33, as you probably know. It is a value espoused by Pata?jali, just not as a yama. Many theistic yoga texts post-Pata?jali (i.e., of the Pa?car?tras and P??upatas) list 10 yamas and 10 niyamas, not five. Some of these include compassion (k?p? or day?) as one of their 10 yamas. But I don?t know how far back these traditions of 10 go before Pata?jali. For most modern yogis, the most influential late medieval yoga text is Sv?tmar?ma's Ha?ha-Yoga-Prad?pik?, which lists 10 yamas and 10 niyamas (see 1.18-19). One of the 10 yamas is compassion (day?). Nowadays yoga practitioners often conflate P?ta?jala and Ha?ha Yoga traditions--could this be a source of your respondent's ideas? Best wishes, Andrew Andrew J. Nicholson Associate Professor Graduate Studies Director Asian & Asian American Studies Stony Brook University Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 (631) 632-4030 http://philosophicalrasika.com/ > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: patrick mccartney > To: Indology List > Cc: > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 15:49:01 +1100 > Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas > Dear Friends, > > A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were > 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? *could* be indirectly > translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, > 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is > what my respondent was referring to. > > While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical > understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it > fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, > unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a > professional yoga teacher). As *many* practitioners of modern yoga assume > this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori concept, this > has made me think about the historicity and development of the yamas and > niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. > > Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS as > 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior to > the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the > ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate > numbers/locations, etc) > > Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the > development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of > the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained > specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts > place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite > interesting. > > > Thank you. > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > - > > Linkedin > > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium > > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married > > > A Day in our Ashram > > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song > s > > The Philosophy of Cycling > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Clough, Bradley" > To: patrick mccartney > Cc: Indology List > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:43:51 +0000 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas > Dear Patrick, > > The 5 yamas are identical to Jainism?s 5 mahavratas. I assume the > mahavratas predate the list of yamas in the PYS. I?m sure someone more > expert than I in Jainism could tell you what date they first appear in Jain > scriptures. > > Best Wishes, > Brad > > > Dr. Bradley S. Clough > Liberal Studies/Asian Religions > LA 101 > The University of Montana > 32 Campus Drive > Missoula, MT 59812 > > bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu > Phone: 406-243-2837 > Fax: 406-243-4076 > > On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:49 PM, patrick mccartney > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were > 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? could be indirectly > translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, > 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is > what my respondent was referring to. > > While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical > understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it > fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, > unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a > professional yoga teacher). As many practitioners of modern yoga assume > this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori concept, this > has made me think about the historicity and development of the yamas and > niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. > > Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS as > 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior to > the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the > ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate > numbers/locations, etc) > > Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the > development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of > the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained > specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts > place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite > interesting. > > > Thank you. > > > All the best, > > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Fellow > School of Culture, History & Language > College of the Asia-Pacific > The Australian National University > Canberra, Australia, 0200 > > > Skype - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 > Twitter - @psdmccartney > > > academia > > * > > Linkedin trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile> > > Edanz > > #yogabodyANU2016 symposium < > http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body- > past-and-present-symposium?#tab> > > Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land > > Ep 2 - Total-am > > Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum > > Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married m/watch?v=_B3un7aHEAc> > > A Day in our Ashram amaare+ashram+mein> > > Stop animation short film of Shakuntala ?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg> > > Forced to Clean Human Waste > > One of my favourite song >s > > The Philosophy of Cycling /UploadFiles/file0_2221.pdf> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dominik Wujastyk > To: Mark McClish > Cc: Arlo Griffiths , indology < > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:11:34 -0700 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources > Some manuscripts of the C?k?u??ya are listed in NCC v.7, p.1. It's > described as a work in 67 sutras "with elaboration and s?rthasa?grahas?tras > under each s?tra". > > ? > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > ?,? > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > ?,? > > Department of History and Classics > > ?,? > University of Alberta, Canada > ?.? > > South Asia at the U of A: > > ?sas.ualberta.ca? > ?? > > > On 18 November 2016 at 12:46, Mark McClish > wrote: > >> Dear Arlo, >> >> I believe those references are to the *Artha??stra* commentaries >> *Jayama?gal?* and *C??akya??k?*. The *C?k?u??ya *is supposed to be an >> independent work. >> >> I have since found the following entry in Singh?s *Bibliography of >> Kautiliya Arthasastra*: >> >> 459. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. "Caksusiya." Journal of Sri Venkatesvara >> Oriental Institute, Vol. 4, Part 1, 1943, pp. 123-128, Vol. 6, Part 2, pp. >> 33-53. >> >> 460. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. " Chakshushiya: an ancient work on >> Arthasastra." Annals of Sri Venkatesvara Oriental Institute, Vol. 1, part >> 4, 1940, pp. 79-89. >> >> Does anyone know where these might be available online? >> >> All best, >> Mark >> >> >> >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Arlo Griffiths >> wrote: >> >> Dear Mark, >> >> Could the second item be the one whose accurate bibliography is >> elaborately stated in n. 49 of von Hin?ber's 2005 article on >> bh?micchidrany?ya > >> >? >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Arlo Griffiths >> >> >> www.jstor.org >> >> www.jstor.org >> Title: Der bh?micchidrany?ya Created Date: 20160807204254Z >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of Mark >> McClish >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:54 PM >> *To:* indology >> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources >> >> Dear friends, >> >> I?m having trouble locating two sources on artha??stra, and I hoped >> someone on the list might be able to help me. I give here the bibliographic >> information as I have it. >> >> *1. Ruben, W. 1929. Study in the Artha??stra. Dharwar.* (This is cited >> in Sternbach?s *Bibliography of Kau?ilya Artha??stra*, which has a >> number of errors, as well as, at least, Botto?s article on *dvaidh?bh?va* >> in *India Maior*). Worldcat has the following, but I couldn?t get it >> from the British Library to see if it is the same: >> >> >> >> *2. Kavi, Ramakrishna. [title unknown: multiple articles on and text of >> the C?k?u??ya Artha??stra]. Journal of the Venkatesvara Oriental Institute. >> 1:79-89; 3:99-116; 4:123-128; 4:129-140; 6:129-140(?). *This comes from >> Kane I p. 152ff. >> >> With thanks in advance for any help hunting down any of these. >> >> All best, >> Mark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dominik Wujastyk > To: Harry Spier > Cc: Peter Scharf , Indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:21:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs > Dear Harry, the documentation in the "document header" of each SARIT file > notes that the encoding is IAST, and notes where that differs from the ISO > standard. Thus, the document header of the Astangahrdayasamhita file, to > pick one at random, has this statement: > > Editorial Description > > The published edition from which this e-text was transcribed is printed in > the Devan?gar? script. The electronic text below is in a lossless > transliteration using the Latin alphabet. The transliteration scheme used > is the IAST (The International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration > ). > IAST differs in small ways from ISO 15919, but is preferred by most working > Sanskrit scholars. Conversion of this file to ISO 15919 can be achieved by > performing the following replacements throughout the file: ? -> r? and ? -> > ? > > Text divison is as Devan?gar? ("ityevam" not "ity evam".) > > Initial vowel elision for avagraha is reversed and marked with a + sign: > e.g., "prathamo+adhy?ya?" > > > The principle behind the SARIT repository is that the e-texts should be > documented, so that any quirks or editorial decisions are explict and > up-front. In addition, there is a revision history for each file. So if > you take the file and do something to it, you brieflly note what you've > done before re-uploading the file. > > Best, > Dominik > > > ? > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > ?,? > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > ?,? > > Department of History and Classics > > ?,? > University of Alberta, Canada > ?.? > > South Asia at the U of A: > > ?sas.ualberta.ca? > ?? > > > On 18 November 2016 at 18:23, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> I've just looked at the Sanskrit Library, SARIT and GRETIL texts and I >> see that these use IAST transliteration for anusvara (dot under m) while >> Muktabodha digital library uses ISO15919 for anusvara (dot on top of m). >> >> Harry Spier >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf >> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members, >>> The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at >>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to >>> Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus >>> diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software >>> >>> - TranscodeFile (Java program) >>> >>> >>> which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has >>> a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using >>> precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with >>> searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why >>> Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all >>> our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and >>> searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired >>> (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are >>> preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* >>> available at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses the >>> issues comprehensively. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Peter >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier < >>> hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear list members, >>>> >>>> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >>>> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >>>> it in two glyphs. >>>> >>>> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >>>> >>>> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >>>> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >>>> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >>>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >>>> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >>>> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >>>> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from >>>> either GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find >>>> anything. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Harry Spier >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>> committee) >>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>> or unsubscribe) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ******************* >>> Peter M. Scharf >>> scharfpm7 at g mail.com >>> ******************* >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dominik Wujastyk > To: Harry Spier > Cc: Indology > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:30:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs > On this issue of combining accents or single pre-combined glyphs, Andrew > Ollett has already stated the issues. The Unicode Consortium's > documentation about this business is at > > - http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ > > As Andrew said, the terminology is "Normalization Form," and there are > several of these, and quite a few points to consider when writing programs > to work with Unicode. The Unicode consortium makes available algorithms > for dealing with all this, and modern text-processing software libraries > for Unicode are commonly aware of Normalization Forms and "do the right > thing," so the end-user doesn't have to worry. > > This doesn't always work, though. I find that when I cut-n-paste from > WorldCat, for example, into JabRef, all the accented letters are retained > in NFD format, and it's annoying. > > Mostly, when we talk about typing IAST with pre-composed, single-glyph > characters like ?, we're doing what the Unicode people call "Normal Form > Composed" or NFC. The files in SARIT and elsewhere are in this format. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > > ? > -- > Professor Dominik Wujastyk > ?,? > > Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity > ?,? > > Department of History and Classics > > ?,? > University of Alberta, Canada > ?.? > > South Asia at the U of A: > > ?sas.ualberta.ca? > ?? > > > On 18 November 2016 at 05:58, Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> >> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >> it in two glyphs. >> >> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >> >> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either >> GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu Sat Nov 26 00:09:18 2016 From: andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu (Andrew Nicholson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 19:09:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas Message-ID: MEA CULPA: Thanks to Steve Farmer for pointing out to me that the edition I was relying on of the Ha?ha-Yoga-Prad?pik?, Pancham Singh's edition originally published in 1914, conflates Brahm?nanda's "Jyotsn?" commentary with the original text. The list of the 10 yamas and 10 niyamas comes from the commentary, not from the HYP itself. Here's a better edition that clearly separates text and commentary (see p. 14 of this edition for Brahm?nanda's list of yamas and niyamas): https://archive.org/details/hathayogapradipika My confusion was, in a way, an illustration of the larger point of my previous email: there were various commonly cited lists of 10 yamas and 10 niyamas floating around in the first and second millennia CE. Some of them include compassion as one of the 10 yamas. Yoga practitioners (and professors!) tend to get these lists and texts mixed up. Andrew Andrew J. Nicholson Associate Professor Graduate Studies Director Asian & Asian American Studies Stony Brook University Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 (631) 632-4030 http://philosophicalrasika.com/ On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Andrew Nicholson < andrew.nicholson at stonybrook.edu> wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > If you are looking for compassion (karu??) in Pata?jali, you will find it > at YS 1.33, as you probably know. It is a value espoused by Pata?jali, just > not as a yama. > > Many theistic yoga texts post-Pata?jali (i.e., of the Pa?car?tras and > P??upatas) list 10 yamas and 10 niyamas, not five. Some of these include > compassion (k?p? or day?) as one of their 10 yamas. But I don?t know how > far back these traditions of 10 go before Pata?jali. > > For most modern yogis, the most influential late medieval yoga text is > Sv?tmar?ma's Ha?ha-Yoga-Prad?pik?, which lists 10 yamas and 10 niyamas (see > 1.18-19). One of the 10 yamas is compassion (day?). Nowadays yoga > practitioners often conflate P?ta?jala and Ha?ha Yoga traditions--could > this be a source of your respondent's ideas? > > Best wishes, > Andrew > > Andrew J. Nicholson > Associate Professor > Graduate Studies Director > Asian & Asian American Studies > Stony Brook University > Stony Brook, NY 11794-5343 > (631) 632-4030 > http://philosophicalrasika.com/ > > > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: patrick mccartney >> To: Indology List >> Cc: >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 15:49:01 +1100 >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas >> Dear Friends, >> >> A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were >> 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? *could* be indirectly >> translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, >> 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is >> what my respondent was referring to. >> >> While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical >> understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it >> fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, >> unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a >> professional yoga teacher). As *many* practitioners of modern yoga >> assume this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori >> concept, this has made me think about the historicity and development of >> the yamas and niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. >> >> Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS >> as 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior >> to the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the >> ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate >> numbers/locations, etc) >> >> Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the >> development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of >> the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained >> specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts >> place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite >> interesting. >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> - >> >> Linkedin >> >> >> Edanz >> >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium >> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married >> >> >> A Day in our Ashram >> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala >> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song >> s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: "Clough, Bradley" >> To: patrick mccartney >> Cc: Indology List >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 07:43:51 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] yamas and niyamas >> Dear Patrick, >> >> The 5 yamas are identical to Jainism?s 5 mahavratas. I assume the >> mahavratas predate the list of yamas in the PYS. I?m sure someone more >> expert than I in Jainism could tell you what date they first appear in Jain >> scriptures. >> >> Best Wishes, >> Brad >> >> >> Dr. Bradley S. Clough >> Liberal Studies/Asian Religions >> LA 101 >> The University of Montana >> 32 Campus Drive >> Missoula, MT 59812 >> >> bradley.clough at mso.umt.edu >> Phone: 406-243-2837 >> Fax: 406-243-4076 >> >> On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:49 PM, patrick mccartney > > wrote: >> >> Dear Friends, >> >> A recent respondent of mine asserted that 'service' and 'compassion' were >> 2 of the 10 yamas and niyamas. I guess ahi?s? could be indirectly >> translated as 'compassion' for others by being 'non-violent', however, >> 'service' as in 'seva' does not find any mention in the PYS list, which is >> what my respondent was referring to. >> >> While the ideas of 'service' and 'compassion' show a lack of critical >> understanding of the normative, institutionalised convention, I find it >> fascinating how these canonised ideas evolve in a meme-like way, >> unregulated in the minds of yoga practitioners (my respondent is a >> professional yoga teacher). As many practitioners of modern yoga assume >> this list has 'stood the test of time' and is as an a priori concept, this >> has made me think about the historicity and development of the yamas and >> niyamas as singular ideas, and as a conjoined pair. >> >> Might it be correct to say that they were first standardised in the PYS >> as 10? Were there any other lists that had a greater or lesser number prior >> to the PYS? (I'm thinking in a similar way to the development of the >> ?adcakratantra, and how there were other texts that discussed alternate >> numbers/locations, etc) >> >> Might someone be able to lead me to a better understanding of the >> development of the yamas and niyamas? I looked through the search option of >> the list but couldn't really find any discussion that pertained >> specifically to my request. Although the discussions on whether some texts >> place a concept in the yama as opposed to the niyama category are quite >> interesting. >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Fellow >> School of Culture, History & Language >> College of the Asia-Pacific >> The Australian National University >> Canberra, Australia, 0200 >> >> >> Skype - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp: +61 414 954 748 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney >> >> >> academia >> >> * >> >> Linkedin> trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile> >> >> Edanz >> >> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium < >> http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body- >> past-and-present-symposium?#tab> >> >> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land >> >> Ep 2 - Total-am >> >> Ep 3 - Jalam ? Chillum >> >> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married> m/watch?v=_B3un7aHEAc> >> >> A Day in our Ashram> amaare+ashram+mein> >> >> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala > ?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg> >> >> Forced to Clean Human Waste >> >> One of my favourite song> >s >> >> The Philosophy of Cycling> /UploadFiles/file0_2221.pdf> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> To: Mark McClish >> Cc: Arlo Griffiths , indology < >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:11:34 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources >> Some manuscripts of the C?k?u??ya are listed in NCC v.7, p.1. It's >> described as a work in 67 sutras "with elaboration and s?rthasa?grahas?tras >> under each s?tra". >> >> ? >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> ?,? >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> ?,? >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> ?,? >> University of Alberta, Canada >> ?.? >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> ?sas.ualberta.ca? >> ?? >> >> >> On 18 November 2016 at 12:46, Mark McClish > > wrote: >> >>> Dear Arlo, >>> >>> I believe those references are to the *Artha??stra* commentaries >>> *Jayama?gal?* and *C??akya??k?*. The *C?k?u??ya *is supposed to be an >>> independent work. >>> >>> I have since found the following entry in Singh?s *Bibliography of >>> Kautiliya Arthasastra*: >>> >>> 459. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. "Caksusiya." Journal of Sri Venkatesvara >>> Oriental Institute, Vol. 4, Part 1, 1943, pp. 123-128, Vol. 6, Part 2, pp. >>> 33-53. >>> >>> 460. Ramakrishna, Kavi, M. " Chakshushiya: an ancient work on >>> Arthasastra." Annals of Sri Venkatesvara Oriental Institute, Vol. 1, part >>> 4, 1940, pp. 79-89. >>> >>> Does anyone know where these might be available online? >>> >>> All best, >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Arlo Griffiths >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Mark, >>> >>> Could the second item be the one whose accurate bibliography is >>> elaborately stated in n. 49 of von Hin?ber's 2005 article on >>> bh?micchidrany?ya >> >>> >? >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Arlo Griffiths >>> >>> >>> www.jstor.org >>> >>> www.jstor.org >>> Title: Der bh?micchidrany?ya Created Date: 20160807204254Z >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> Mark McClish >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:54 PM >>> *To:* indology >>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] two artha??stra sources >>> >>> Dear friends, >>> >>> I?m having trouble locating two sources on artha??stra, and I hoped >>> someone on the list might be able to help me. I give here the bibliographic >>> information as I have it. >>> >>> *1. Ruben, W. 1929. Study in the Artha??stra. Dharwar.* (This is cited >>> in Sternbach?s *Bibliography of Kau?ilya Artha??stra*, which has a >>> number of errors, as well as, at least, Botto?s article on >>> *dvaidh?bh?va* in *India Maior*). Worldcat has the following, but I >>> couldn?t get it from the British Library to see if it is the same: >>> >>> >>> >>> *2. Kavi, Ramakrishna. [title unknown: multiple articles on and text of >>> the C?k?u??ya Artha??stra]. Journal of the Venkatesvara Oriental Institute. >>> 1:79-89; 3:99-116; 4:123-128; 4:129-140; 6:129-140(?). *This comes from >>> Kane I p. 152ff. >>> >>> With thanks in advance for any help hunting down any of these. >>> >>> All best, >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> To: Harry Spier >> Cc: Peter Scharf , Indology < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:21:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs >> Dear Harry, the documentation in the "document header" of each SARIT file >> notes that the encoding is IAST, and notes where that differs from the ISO >> standard. Thus, the document header of the Astangahrdayasamhita file, to >> pick one at random, has this statement: >> >> Editorial Description >> >> The published edition from which this e-text was transcribed is printed >> in the Devan?gar? script. The electronic text below is in a lossless >> transliteration using the Latin alphabet. The transliteration scheme used >> is the IAST (The International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration >> ). >> IAST differs in small ways from ISO 15919, but is preferred by most working >> Sanskrit scholars. Conversion of this file to ISO 15919 can be achieved by >> performing the following replacements throughout the file: ? -> r? and ? -> >> ? >> >> Text divison is as Devan?gar? ("ityevam" not "ity evam".) >> >> Initial vowel elision for avagraha is reversed and marked with a + sign: >> e.g., "prathamo+adhy?ya?" >> >> >> The principle behind the SARIT repository is that the e-texts should be >> documented, so that any quirks or editorial decisions are explict and >> up-front. In addition, there is a revision history for each file. So if >> you take the file and do something to it, you brieflly note what you've >> done before re-uploading the file. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> ? >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> ?,? >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> ?,? >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> ?,? >> University of Alberta, Canada >> ?.? >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> ?sas.ualberta.ca? >> ?? >> >> >> On 18 November 2016 at 18:23, Harry Spier >> wrote: >> >>> I've just looked at the Sanskrit Library, SARIT and GRETIL texts and I >>> see that these use IAST transliteration for anusvara (dot under m) while >>> Muktabodha digital library uses ISO15919 for anusvara (dot on top of m). >>> >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Scharf >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear list members, >>>> The Sanskrit Library transcoding facility on line at >>>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html does indeed transcode to >>>> Romanization using the preferred Unicode composites of characters plus >>>> diacritics. Our off-line transcoding software >>>> >>>> - TranscodeFile (Java program) >>>> >>>> >>>> which is downloadable from http://sanskritlibrary.org/downloads.html has >>>> a large array of transcoders one of which transcodes to Romanization using >>>> precomposed Unicode characters that include diacritics. The problem with >>>> searching that Harry Spier mentions is just one of a number of reasons why >>>> Malcolm Hyman and I designed the Sanskrit Library phonetic encoding for all >>>> our linguistic programming, including both the encoding of texts and >>>> searching, and use Unicode only for display, and data input if desired >>>> (though for the latter purpose SLP and most other meta-encodings are >>>> preferable). Our book *Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit* >>>> available at http://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html discusses >>>> the issues comprehensively. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Harry Spier < >>>> hspier.muktabodha at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear list members, >>>>> >>>>> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >>>>> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >>>>> it in two glyphs. >>>>> >>>>> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >>>>> >>>>> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >>>>> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >>>>> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >>>>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >>>>> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >>>>> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a >>>>> transliterated word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched >>>>> texts from either GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't >>>>> find anything. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Harry Spier >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>>>> committee) >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>>>> or unsubscribe) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ******************* >>>> Peter M. Scharf >>>> scharfpm7 at g mail.com >>>> ******************* >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dominik Wujastyk >> To: Harry Spier >> Cc: Indology >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:30:36 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Diacriticals in unicode, single or multiple glyphs >> On this issue of combining accents or single pre-combined glyphs, Andrew >> Ollett has already stated the issues. The Unicode Consortium's >> documentation about this business is at >> >> - http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ >> >> As Andrew said, the terminology is "Normalization Form," and there are >> several of these, and quite a few points to consider when writing programs >> to work with Unicode. The Unicode consortium makes available algorithms >> for dealing with all this, and modern text-processing software libraries >> for Unicode are commonly aware of Normalization Forms and "do the right >> thing," so the end-user doesn't have to worry. >> >> This doesn't always work, though. I find that when I cut-n-paste from >> WorldCat, for example, into JabRef, all the accented letters are retained >> in NFD format, and it's annoying. >> >> Mostly, when we talk about typing IAST with pre-composed, single-glyph >> characters like ?, we're doing what the Unicode people call "Normal Form >> Composed" or NFC. The files in SARIT and elsewhere are in this format. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> >> >> >> ? >> -- >> Professor Dominik Wujastyk >> ?,? >> >> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity >> ?,? >> >> Department of History and Classics >> >> ?,? >> University of Alberta, Canada >> ?.? >> >> South Asia at the U of A: >> >> ?sas.ualberta.ca? >> ?? >> >> >> On 18 November 2016 at 05:58, Harry Spier >> wrote: >> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> In unicode you can write characters with diacriticals with either a >>> single glyph or you can combine the character with the diacritical writing >>> it in two glyphs. >>> >>> This is a problem when one searchs sanskrit etexts. >>> >>> For example, the letters with diacriticals in the Muktabodha digital >>> library are written with one glyph and as far as I can see GRETIL does the >>> same thing. But the transcoding utility at "The Sanskrit Library" >>> http://sanskritlibrary.org/transcodeText.html >>> combines letters with their diacriticals in two glyphs. >>> So if you used the Sanskrit Library utility to create a transliterated >>> word such as for example: *s?a?kti* and then searched texts from either >>> GRETIL or Muktabodha for that word your search wouldn't find anything. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >>> or unsubscribe) >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> http://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology_list.indology.info >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 01:16:05 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 18:16:05 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Digital copy In-Reply-To: <3B22F901-2F0B-4052-BE4E-07677B362D27@uniroma1.it> Message-ID: I think the French Institute still has copies for sale . ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 16 November 2016 at 06:38, David Pierdominici < davidpaolo.pierdominicileao at uniroma1.it> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > does anyone have by chance a digital copy of ?*La Vi?vagu??dar?acamp? de > Ve?ka??dhvarin. Un po?me satirique sanskrit*.? Introduction, traduction > et notes par Marie-Claude Porcher, Institut Fran?ais d?Indologie, > Pondich?ry, 1972 ? > Thanks in advance. > > My best regards, > > David Pierdominici > PhD candidate > Sapienza Universit? di Roma > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 01:52:54 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 16 18:52:54 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sinhala half nasal plus m In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One can look up Unicode chars in various places, such as here: https://unicodelookup.com/#latin small letter a with tilde/1 It says, e.g., ?? ? latin small letter a with tilde 0343 227 0xE3 ã ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 17 November 2016 at 22:12, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote: > Dear Colleague, > > Between the nasal vowel eg in French ?en? and the velar n one has > anusv?ra written with a dot over m. The nasal as I learned was > represented by a wave above the vowel. Unicode does not furnish the > letters. One has to improvise. I use them in MSWord for printing. But > they are not Unicode compliant > Best > > DB > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Rolf Heinrich Koch > wrote: > > Dear list members, > > > > there is one Sinhala sign consisting of a half-nasal with following ba, > > > > like in a-m-ba (mango). > > > > > > > > Unicode has a half-nasal for n, e. g. pa?dita. > > > > But I could not figure out the corresponding sign for the half-nasal m. > > > > Since the anusvara ? is also frequent in Sinhala, I am using ? for > > transcribing the half nasal m, e. g. a?ba. > > > > > > > > My work does not allow the composition of signs with the help of an > > additional accent. > > > > > > > > Anyone came across the Unicode-standard for he half nasal of m? > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > Rolf Heinrich Koch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > > unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chiara.policardi at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 17:55:53 2016 From: chiara.policardi at gmail.com (Chiara Policardi) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 16 18:55:53 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request Message-ID: Dear members of the List, I'd be most grateful for a pdf of the following essay: Sontheimer, G. D. 1994. ?The Vana and the K?etra: The Tribal Background of Some Famous Cults.? In G. C. Tripathy and H. Kulke (eds), *Religion and Society in Eastern India*: 117?64. Delhi: Manohar Publishers. With many thanks in advance, Chiara Policardi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chiara.policardi at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 11:58:35 2016 From: chiara.policardi at gmail.com (Chiara Policardi) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 16 12:58:35 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have the pdf: many thanks to J?rgen Neu?. 2016-11-26 18:55 GMT+01:00 Chiara Policardi : > Dear members of the List, > > I'd be most grateful for a pdf of the following essay: > > Sontheimer, G. D. 1994. ?The Vana and the K?etra: The Tribal Background of > Some Famous Cults.? In G. C. Tripathy and H. Kulke (eds), *Religion and > Society in Eastern India*: 117?64. Delhi: Manohar Publishers. > > With many thanks in advance, > > Chiara Policardi > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Nov 27 12:04:57 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 16 13:04:57 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also from me: many thanks to J?rgen Neu? for the pdf. Artur Karp 2016-11-27 12:58 GMT+01:00 Chiara Policardi : > I have the pdf: many thanks to J?rgen Neu?. > > 2016-11-26 18:55 GMT+01:00 Chiara Policardi : > >> Dear members of the List, >> >> I'd be most grateful for a pdf of the following essay: >> >> Sontheimer, G. D. 1994. ?The Vana and the K?etra: The Tribal Background >> of Some Famous Cults.? In G. C. Tripathy and H. Kulke (eds), *Religion >> and Society in Eastern India*: 117?64. Delhi: Manohar Publishers. >> >> With many thanks in advance, >> >> Chiara Policardi >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 18:33:19 2016 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 16 13:33:19 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar, Archive.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Bob Hueckstedt, Christophe Vielle, Jesse Knutson, Reinhold Gruenendahl, Herman Tull, and Peter Wyzlic for all the great links to Whitney's Grammar and Verb Roots Cheers James On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:02 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > HI All > > Someone kindly uploaded a scanned pdf, etc., of Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar > to Archive.org. > > Pages 237-242 are missing (and other pages are quite dark) > > Might someone have access to a clean, complete copy and be able to > re-upload it? > > Cheers > James > > -- > James Hartzell, PhD(2x) > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) > The University of Trento, Italy > and > Center for Buddhist Studies > Columbia University, USA > > -- James Hartzell, PhD(2x) Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC) The University of Trento, Italy and Center for Buddhist Studies Columbia University, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 07:32:39 2016 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 16 08:32:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yoga in "The History of Philosophy without any gaps" Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Some of you may already be aware of the project by Peter Adamson and Jonardon Ganeri to present ?The History of Philosophy *without any gaps* ? online in a series of podcasts. Recently, I had the opportunity to collaborate with Peter Adamson in setting up an episode on philosophical yoga, which was just published online here . I hope that you may find this as well as the other episodes of ?The History of Philosophy *without any gaps*? useful for general information and teaching purposes. Best wishes, Philipp Maas __________________________ Dr. Philipp A. Maas Research Associate Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 08:04:40 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 16 09:04:40 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Yoga in "The History of Philosophy without any gaps" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Philipp, Thanks for having shared this excellent contribution of yours. Good initiative of Peter Adams and Jonardon Ganeri. With best greetings, Jan *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 28 November 2016 at 08:32, Philipp Maas wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Some of you may already be aware of the project by Peter Adamson and > Jonardon Ganeri to present ?The History of Philosophy *without any gaps* > ? online in a series of podcasts. > Recently, I had the opportunity to collaborate with Peter Adamson in > setting up an episode on philosophical yoga, which was just published > online here . I hope that > you may find this as well as the other episodes of ?The History of > Philosophy *without any gaps*? useful for general information and > teaching purposes. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Philipp Maas > __________________________ > > Dr. Philipp A. Maas > Research Associate > Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften > Universit?t Leipzig > ___________________________ > > https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Mon Nov 28 10:50:53 2016 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 16 10:50:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf requested In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F760A1DAD0@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> I should greatly appreciate it, if someone could send me a pdf copy of the following: Rita Wright, The ancient Indus: urbanism, economy and society. 2010. Many thanks, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shyamr at yorku.ca Mon Nov 28 19:24:48 2016 From: shyamr at yorku.ca (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 16 14:24:48 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Edited Volume Announcement: Indian Ethics (Apologies for Cross Posting) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am an analytically trained philosopher working in standard recent areas of analytic philosophy (metaethics, philosophy of language, moral theory) who has taken the study of the Indian tradition of philosophy as a test case for credible accounts of moral communication and theory.I started this project twenty years ago as a graduate student when I became acquainted with the prevalent myth that Indian thinkers were uninterested in moral philosophy (because they are too busy being religious). This struck me as bizarre: as a undergraduate philosophy student, what I knew about South Asian religions (disagreements between Jains, Buddhists, and ?Hindus?) centered around basic questions of practical rationality and these disagreements are at home in standard analytic introductions to ethics and absolutely out of place in standard accounts of the philosophy of religion.One of the outcomes of this project of mine is an edited volume that I have been working on for some time, and to which many of our colleagues have contributed: /The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics./ //It was released November 17, 2016. This edited volume is part of a series of volumes edited by our own Ram Prasad. The papers span Indian moral theory, applied ethics and papers on the overlap of politics and morality. The volume also contains an introductory section by yours truly. All contributions were peer reviewed. While I have been working on this topic for nearly twenty years, I learned much from the scholarship of the other contributors: Jake Davis, Jayandra Soni, Kisor Chakrabarti, William Edelglass, Dagmar Wujastyk, Francis X. Clooney, Edeltraud Harzer, A. Raghuramaraju, and Ashwani Peetush. As they depict it, Indian ethics is surprising and rich. I hope you find their contributions as useful and informative as I have. Best wishes, Shyam Ranganathan Department of Philosophy Center for South Asian Studies, Department of Social Sciences, York University, Toronto -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 21:20:27 2016 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 16 14:20:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf requested In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F760A1DAD0@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: Dear Ken, There are many copies of this book available on addall.com, under their used books (some of which are new copies). This is a helpful site, because it gathers data on availability from the many bookseller sites around the world, in one convenient place. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Kenneth Gregory Zysk wrote: > I should greatly appreciate it, if someone could send me a pdf copy of the > following: > > > > > > Rita Wright, *The ancient Indus: urbanism, economy and society*. 2010. > > > > > > Many thanks, > > Ken > > > > > > Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil > > Head of Indology > > Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies > > University of Copenhagen > > Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, > > DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark > > Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 07:41:18 2016 From: c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com (Malcolm Keating) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 02:41:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Interviews at the Indian Philosophy Blog Message-ID: Dear All, Prof. Maas? announcement about his interview with the The History of Philosophy (without any gaps) is a good reminder of the role that interviews can play in educating the wider public about Indian philosophy. If I may, I?d encourage list members who are interested in reading and/or participating in interviews to visit the Indian Philosophy Blog?s occasional series of interviews: http://indianphilosophyblog.org/category/interview/ We're always looking for philosophers to interview, so if you would like to participate (it?s a set series of questions), please let me know off-list. We?d like to ensure we feature a wide range of scholars: junior to senior, beyond North America/UK and Europe, and representing a broad spectrum of methodologies, ethnicities, genders, and so on. Thanks for your time. Malcolm -- Malcolm Keating Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg | www.malcolmkeating.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 16:09:34 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 09:09:34 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf requested In-Reply-To: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F760A1DAD0@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Message-ID: This is a contemporary publication, easily available from Amazon for a reasonable price. Please can we INDOLOGY members restrict our PDF requests to items that are out of copyright (60 years after the death of the author) or almost so, or else genuinely obscure and hard to acquire. I know that we're all finding the sharing of documents to be one of INDOLOGY's most valuable features at the moment, and the committee doesn't want to stop this important function. But we don't want to stray too obviously into illegal territory. ?Many thanks, Dominik INDOLOGY committee? On 28 November 2016 at 03:50, Kenneth Gregory Zysk wrote: > I should greatly appreciate it, if someone could send me a pdf copy of the > following: > > > > > > Rita Wright, *The ancient Indus: urbanism, economy and society*. 2010. > > > > > > Many thanks, > > Ken > > > > > > Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil > > Head of Indology > > Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies > > University of Copenhagen > > Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, > > DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark > > Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Tue Nov 29 17:17:12 2016 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 17:17:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf requested In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <363679393C2EB44480CDA76B2F23C9F760A1DDCD@P2KITMBX06WC03.unicph.domain> Good point. Best, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk From: Dominik Wujastyk [mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com] Sent: 29. november 2016 17:10 To: Kenneth Gregory Zysk Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Pdf requested This is a contemporary publication, easily available from Amazon for a reasonable price. Please can we INDOLOGY members restrict our PDF requests to items that are out of copyright (60 years after the death of the author) or almost so, or else genuinely obscure and hard to acquire. I know that we're all finding the sharing of documents to be one of INDOLOGY's most valuable features at the moment, and the committee doesn't want to stop this important function. But we don't want to stray too obviously into illegal territory. ?Many thanks, Dominik INDOLOGY committee? On 28 November 2016 at 03:50, Kenneth Gregory Zysk > wrote: I should greatly appreciate it, if someone could send me a pdf copy of the following: Rita Wright, The ancient Indus: urbanism, economy and society. 2010. Many thanks, Ken Kenneth Zysk, PhD, DPhil Head of Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Vej 4, Bygn. 10, DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Ph: +45 3532 8951 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch Tue Nov 29 17:43:48 2016 From: johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 17:43:48 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Jinadatta=E2=80=99s_Vivekavil=C4=81sa?= Message-ID: <1077FFE5-762F-4FF7-A9FE-F536BA057B80@unil.ch> According to Potter?s bibliography, there are four editions of Jinadatta?s Vivekavil?sa. None of these are available to me. I would be grateful if I could receive a pdf of any (or all) of these editions. Thanks in advance. Johannes Bronkhorst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Tue Nov 29 19:16:28 2016 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 19:16:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ludo Rocher Message-ID: Dear Friends: A few weeks ago I sent a message about Ludo Rocher?s wish that in stead of flowers etc., a donation in his name could be sent to the AIIS. I have since learnt a bit more about ?The Ludo and Rosane Rocher Research Fellowship in Sanskrit Studies? at the AIIS. Any donations sent will be added to the existing endowment. The President of the AIIS, our colleague Phillip Lutgendorf, has contacted me and given these details. Donations to AIIS may be made online by clicking on the ?donate? button on the gift page of our website (http://www.indiastudies.org/make-a-gift/ ). This takes you to a page where you can choose to make a donation (of any amount) either via Pay Pal or credit card. Once you enter the relevant PP or card information, you get a box into which you can type special instructions regarding the gift. These should specify that it is for: The Ludo and Rosane Rocher Research Fellowship for Sanskrit Studies. It is also possible to donate by personal check, sent to AIIS at 1130 E. 59th St., Chicago, IL 60637. The ?Rocher? message can then be written on the information line on the check, or on an enclosure. With thanks and best wishes, Patrick Olivelle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 01:25:17 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 18:25:17 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] some jobs being advertised Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Faculty Positions in Humanities and Social Sciences Indian Institute of Technology Gandhinagar Recruitment Ahmedabad, Gujarat, India Date Posted: Oct. 17, 2016 http://www.AcademicKeys.com/r?job=84794&o=1063044&t=HU161129m-8e ____________________________________________________________________ Lecturer in Tibetan Buddhism the University of Sydney Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences Sydney, NSW, Australia Date Posted: Oct. 12, 2016 http://www.AcademicKeys.com/r?job=84447&o=1063044&t=HU161129m-8e ____________________________________________________________________ Faculty Positions in Humanities Avantika University School of Design Ujjain, Madhya Pradesh, India Date Posted: Aug. 15, 2016 http://www.AcademicKeys.com/r?job=81954&o=1063044&t=HU161129m-8e ____________________________________________________________________ Faculty Positions in Social Sciences Avantika University School of Design Ujjain, Madhya Pradesh, India Date Posted: Aug. 15, 2016 http://www.AcademicKeys.com/r?job=81953&o=1063044&t=HU161129m-8e ____________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tsaralere at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 07:32:34 2016 From: tsaralere at gmail.com (Tejas Aralere) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 16 23:32:34 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Georges Dumezil's Tripartite Ideology text Message-ID: Dear All, Does anyone have a PDF of George Dum?zil's "L'Id?ologie Tripartie des Indo-Europ?ens"? An english translation (if it exists) would be perfect, but even a copy in French would be appreciated. I just can't seem to find it anywhere. Thank you, Tejas Aralere tsaralere at umail.ucsb.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Wed Nov 30 08:45:19 2016 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 09:45:19 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Georges Dumezil's Tripartite Ideology text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71AF72E7-0BF0-4352-BF58-F655B14D13DC@uclouvain.be> L'id?ologie tripartie des Indo-Europ?ens, Bruxelles : Latomus (Collection Latomus 31), 1958, is currently out of print (the series "Coll. Latomus" is now with Peeters publ.: http://www.peeters-leuven.be/search_serie_book.asp?nr=299 ). As far as I know, no English translation was made of this book. Alf Hiltebeitel made a translation of the 1st edition of Heur et malheur du guerrier. Aspects mythiques de la fonction guerri?re chez les Indo-Europ?ens, Paris : Flammarion, 19691, 19852 : The Destiny of the Warrior, Chicago UP, 1970. https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfTheWarrior1970 and of the 3rd part of the 1st edition of Mythe et ?pop?e II. Types ?piques indo-europ?ens : un h?ros, un sorcier, un roi, Paris : Gallimard (Biblioth?que des sciences humaines), 19711, 19772, 19864 : The Destiny of a King, Chicago UP, 1973. https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing1973 The translation of two other parts of the latter have been ed. by J. Puhvel, The Stakes of the Warrior [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheStakesOfTheWarrior], and The Plight of a Sorcerer [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilJaanPuhvelDavidWeeksThePlightOfASorcererUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1986], Berkeley, UCP, 1983 and 1986. There also exists also English translations of Dum?zil's Mitra-Varuna (Paris: Gallimard, 1940/48) by D. Coltman, New York : Zone Books, 1988 [https://archive.org/details/georges-dumezil-mitra-varuna - https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilMitraVarunaAnEssayOnTwoIndoEuropeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty1990 - https://archive.org/details/Mitra-varunaAnEssayOnTwoIndo-europeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty]; Les dieux des Germains (Paris : PUF, 1959) + 4 articles, dir. by E. Haugen, Gods of the Ancient Northmen, Berkeley, UCP, 1973 [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilGodsOfTheAncientNorthmenUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1973 - https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_DZIeNMgZhRwC]; La religion romaine archa?que (Paris : Payot, 1966) by Philipp Krapp, Archaic Roman Religion, 2 vols, Chicago UP, 1970 [https://archive.org/details/dumezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on-the-religion-of-the-etruscans-part-1 - https://archive.org/details/dumezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on-the-religion-of-the-etruscans-part-2 - https://archive.org/details/ArchaicRomanReligion]; Du mythe au roman (Paris : PUF, 1970) by D. Coltman, From Myth to Fiction, Chicago UP, 1970; Mythe et ?pop?e III (Paris : Gallimard, 1973) ed. by U. Strutynski, Camillus, Berkeley, UCP, 1980 [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilCamillusAStudyOfIndoEuropeanReligionAsRomanHistory1980]. Best wishes, Christophe Vielle Le 30 nov. 2016 ? 08:32, Tejas Aralere a ?crit : > Dear All, > > Does anyone have a PDF of George Dum?zil's "L'Id?ologie Tripartie des Indo-Europ?ens"? An english translation (if it exists) would be perfect, but even a copy in French would be appreciated. I just can't seem to find it anywhere. > > Thank you, > Tejas Aralere > tsaralere at umail.ucsb.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 09:33:48 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 10:33:48 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_ENJEUX_DE_LA_PHILOLOGIE_INDIENNE_:_traditions,_=C3=A9ditions,_traductions/transferts_ISSUES_IN_INDIAN_PHILOLOGY:_Traditions,_Editions,_Translations/Transfers_Paris,_Coll=C3=A8ge_de_France,_5-7_d=C3=A9cembre_2016?= Message-ID: ENJEUX DE LA PHILOLOGIE INDIENNE : traditions, ?ditions, traductions/transferts ISSUES IN INDIAN PHILOLOGY: Traditions, Editions, Translations/Transfers Paris, Coll?ge de France, 5-7 d?cembre 2016 Conf?rence inaugurale : lundi 5 d?cembre ? 17h00, salle 2 Organisation : Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE, Mondes iranien et indien), Silvia D?Intino (CNRS, ANHIMA), Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France, CRCAO) LUNDI 5 d?cembre 2016 17h00 Ouverture du colloque Conf?rence inaugurale Sheldon Pollock (Columbia University) ? "Indian Philology": Edition, Interpretation, and Difference ? MARDI 6 d?cembre 2016 Matin?e : ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes Pr?sident de s?ance : Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France) 9h15 Charles Malamoud (EPHE) ? Le cercle des saisons (?tuma??ala). Note sur le premier prap??haka du Taittir?ya ?ra?yaka ? 9h45 Silvia D?Intino (CNRS) ? Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a ? 10h15 Cezary Galewicz (Jagiellonian University, Cracovie) ? The R?japur Manuscript of Bhattoji?s Vedabh??yas?ra ? Discutant : Christian Jacob (EHESS) Pause 11h15 : Edwin Gerow (Reed College, Portland) ? Les acceptions de karman et la tradition grammaticale sanskrite ? 11h45 : Madhav Deshpande (University of Michigan) ? Re-Viewing the Tradition: Language, Grammar and History ? 12h15 : Maria-Piera Candotti (Universit? de Lausanne) ? Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et la construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain. Exemples et r?flexions ? partir des commentaires de l??cole vy?karana ? Discutant : Jan Houben (EPHE) Apr?s-midi : ?pop?es, traditions savantes Pr?sident de s?ance : David Shulman (Hebrew University, J?rusalem) 14h00 : John Brockington (Oxford University) ? Religion and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts: The Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata ? 14h30 : Claudine Le Blanc (Paris 3) ? Philologie de l??pop?e orale ? 15h00 : Naveen Kanalu (UCLA) ? Philological Conditions for Pampa?s Vikram?rjunavijayam, the Kannada Earlier Extant Ka?vya, and the Problem of a Literary History for Old Kannada ? Discutant : Pierre Judet de La Combe (EHESS) 16h00 : Carl Ernst (University of North Carolina) ? Disentangling the Different Persian Translations of The Pool of Nectar (Am?taku??a) ? 16h30 : Fabrizio Speziale (Paris 3) ? ?il? or do?a? Translation and Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory of Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts ? Discutant : Francis Zimmermann (EHESS) MERCREDI 7 d?cembre 2016 Matin?e : Philologie/philosophie Pr?sident de s?ance : Philippe Hoffmann (EPHE) 9h15 : Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE) ? Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya ? 9h45 : Eli Franco (Leipzig University) ? Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika ? 10h15 : Vincent Eltschinger (EPHE) ? Entre autorit? textuelle et autorit? religieuse : le Bouddha au prisme de l?ex?g?se bouddhique ? Discutant : Matthew Kapstein (EPHE) Pause 11h15 : Judit T?rzs?k (Lille 3) ? Abhinavagupta on the Epic: Some Remarks on the G?t?rthasa?graha and its m?la ? 11h45 : Isabelle Rati? (Paris 3) ? Pour une philologie indienne des marges : le cas des manuscrits cachemiriens ? Discutant : J?rgen Hanneder (Marburg University) Apr?s-midi : Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer Pr?sidente de s?ance : Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE) 14h00 : Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France) ? Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et r??criture du sanskrit en chinois ? 14h30 : Matthew Kapstein (EPHE) ? Other People?s Philology: Tibetan Engagements with Sanskrit during the 15th ? 18th Centuries ? 15h00 : J?rgen Hanneder (Marburg University) th ? The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism ? Discutant : Eli Franco (Leipzig University) Pause 16h00 : David Shulman (Hebrew University, J?rusalem) ? A South Indian Canon: Visible, Audible, Elastic ? 16h30 : Benedetta Zaccarello (CNRS) ? ?crire l?impensable : sur les carnets abstraits de Aurobindo Ghose et Paul Val?ry ? Discutant : Claudio Galderisi (Universit? de Poitiers) 17h30 : Table ronde Comit? scientifique Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE), Silvia D?Intino (CNRS) Philippe Hoffmann (EPHE), Charles Malamoud (EPHE) Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France) Organisation Lyne Bansat-Boudon, Silvia D?Intino, Jean-No?l Robert *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 09:56:00 2016 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 10:56:00 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Georges Dumezil's Tripartite Ideology text In-Reply-To: <71AF72E7-0BF0-4352-BF58-F655B14D13DC@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: A propos this topic please permit me to quote from a review I published long years ago on a volume of the collected papers of John Brough (IIJ 42: 188-196): Despite the astonishingly broad range of his interests and competence, Brough was not a comparativist, at least in the sense that that term is frequently used today. In fact, he rather energetically, and sometimes even rather sarcastically, critiqued a certain type of comparativism, especially in his comments on Dumezil?s ideas on the ?Tripartite Ideology of the IndoEuropeans.? Having, for example, offered an elaborate complex of evidence which reduces to ashes Dumezil?s claim that the ?Tripartite Ideology? is exclusively IndoEuropean, and nonBiblical, Brough wrote (p. 199): ?We can, of course, dismiss the whole thing [that is, Brough?s demonstration of the same patterns in Biblical myth] as a mere burlesque, a caricature of Professor Dumezil?s methods: though I protest that I have tried not to caricature, and have done my best to deal with the material in the same manner as he has dealt with the IndoEuropean material. The reader is free to judge whether or not my treatment is a burlesque.? Despite the putative freedom Brough has given his reader, he ends his study with these words: ?The experiment [carried out in the paper] also suggests that the IndoEuropean ?tripartite ideology? could be due very largely to bias in the selection of data combined with ?la nature des choses?. If it does not prove this with the certainty of a mathematical demonstration, it does at least prove that, up to the present, no very strong reason has been given for thinking otherwise.? Jonathan Silk On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > *L'id?ologie tripartie des Indo-Europ?ens*, Bruxelles : Latomus (*Collection > Latomus* 31), 1958, > is currently out of print (the series "Coll. Latomus" is now with Peeters > publ.: http://www.peeters-leuven.be/search_serie_book.asp?nr=299 ). > As far as I know, no English translation was made of this book. > > Alf Hiltebeitel made a translation of the 1st edition of > *Heur et malheur du guerrier. Aspects mythiques de la fonction guerri?re > chez les Indo-Europ?ens*, Paris : Flammarion, 19691, 19852 : *The > Destiny of the Warrior*, Chicago UP, 1970. > https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfTheWarrior1970 > > and of the 3rd part of the 1st edition of > *Mythe et ?pop?e II. Types ?piques indo-europ?ens : un h?ros, un sorcier, > un roi*, Paris : Gallimard (*Biblioth?que des sciences humaines*), 19711, > 19772, 19864 : *The Destiny of a King*, Chicago UP, 1973. > https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing > https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing1973 > > The translation of two other parts of the latter have been ed. by J. > Puhvel, *The Stakes of the Warrior *[https://archive.org/details/ > GeorgesDumezilTheStakesOfTheWarrior], and *The Plight of a Sorcerer *[ > https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilJaanPuhvelDavidW > eeksThePlightOfASorcererUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1986], Berkeley, UCP, > 1983 and 1986. There also exists also English translations of Dum?zil's > *Mitra-Varuna *(Paris: Gallimard, 1940/48) by D. Coltman, New York : Zone > Books, 1988 [https://archive.org/details/georges-dumezil-mitra-varuna - > https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilMitraVarunaAnEss > ayOnTwoIndoEuropeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty1990 - > https://archive.org/details/Mitra-varunaAnEssayOnTwoIndo- > europeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty]; *Les dieux des Germains *(Paris : > PUF, 1959) + 4 articles, dir. by E. Haugen, *Gods of the Ancient Northmen*, > Berkeley, UCP, 1973 [https://archive.org/details/ > GeorgesDumezilGodsOfTheAncientNorthmenUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1973 - > https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_DZIeNMgZhRwC]; *La religion romaine > archa?que* (Paris : Payot, 1966) by Philipp Krapp, *Archaic Roman > Religion*, 2 vols, Chicago UP, 1970 [https://archive.org/details/ > dumezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on- > the-religion-of-the-etruscans-part-1 - https://archive.org/details/ > dumezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on- > the-religion-of-the-etruscans-part-2 - https://archive.org/details/ > ArchaicRomanReligion]; *Du mythe au roman* (Paris : PUF, 1970) by D. > Coltman, *From Myth to Fiction*, Chicago UP, 1970; *Mythe et ?pop?e III* > (Paris : Gallimard, 1973) ed. by U. Strutynski, *Camillus*, Berkeley, > UCP, 1980 [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilCamillusAStudyOf > IndoEuropeanReligionAsRomanHistory1980]. > > > Best wishes, > Christophe Vielle > > Le 30 nov. 2016 ? 08:32, Tejas Aralere a ?crit : > > Dear All, > > Does anyone have a PDF of George Dum?zil's "L'Id?ologie Tripartie des > Indo-Europ?ens"? An english translation (if it exists) would be perfect, > but even a copy in French would be appreciated. I just can't seem to find > it anywhere. > > Thank you, > Tejas Aralere > tsaralere at umail.ucsb.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands copies of my publications may be found at http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 11:10:38 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 12:10:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Georges Dumezil's Tripartite Ideology text Message-ID: Dear Christophe, Thanks for the very detailed bibliographical references. Dear Jonathan, thanks for this reference of the refutation by John Brough. Dum?zil's work is rich and explored domaines that before and after him have hardly been touched by anyone. Even if we reject Dum?zil's main theory there is much of value to be found in his work. Jan Gonda's Triads in the Veda (Amsterdam 1976) is a collection of passages in which Gonda, in his own style, tried to let an enormous mass of textual evidence mainly "speak for itself" but the aim was to thoroughly refute Dum?zil's theory of "tripartite ideology of the indo-europeans". Jan Houben *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr On 30 November 2016 at 10:56, Jonathan Silk wrote: > A propos this topic please permit me to quote from a review I published > long years ago on a volume of the collected papers of John Brough (IIJ 42: > 188-196): > > Despite the astonishingly broad range of his interests and competence, > Brough was not a comparativist, at least in the sense that that term is > frequently used today. In fact, he rather energetically, and sometimes even > rather sarcastically, critiqued a certain type of comparativism, especially > in his comments on Dumezil?s ideas on the ?Tripartite Ideology of the > IndoEuropeans.? Having, for example, offered an elaborate complex of > evidence which reduces to ashes Dumezil?s claim that the ?Tripartite > Ideology? is exclusively IndoEuropean, and nonBiblical, Brough wrote (p. > 199): ?We can, of course, dismiss the whole thing [that is, Brough?s > demonstration of the same patterns in Biblical myth] as a mere burlesque, a > caricature of Professor Dumezil?s methods: though I protest that I have > tried not to caricature, and have done my best to deal with the material in > the same manner as he has dealt with the IndoEuropean material. The reader > is free to judge whether or not my treatment is a burlesque.? Despite the > putative freedom Brough has given his reader, he ends his study with these > words: ?The experiment [carried out in the paper] also suggests that the > IndoEuropean ?tripartite ideology? could be due very largely to bias in the > selection of data combined with ?la nature des choses?. If it does not > prove this with the certainty of a mathematical demonstration, it does at > least prove that, up to the present, no very strong reason has been given > for thinking otherwise.? > > > Jonathan Silk > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Christophe Vielle < > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > >> *L'id?ologie tripartie des Indo-Europ?ens*, Bruxelles : Latomus (*Collection >> Latomus* 31), 1958, >> is currently out of print (the series "Coll. Latomus" is now with Peeters >> publ.: http://www.peeters-leuven.be/search_serie_book.asp?nr=299 ). >> As far as I know, no English translation was made of this book. >> >> Alf Hiltebeitel made a translation of the 1st edition of >> *Heur et malheur du guerrier. Aspects mythiques de la fonction guerri?re >> chez les Indo-Europ?ens*, Paris : Flammarion, 19691, 19852 : *The >> Destiny of the Warrior*, Chicago UP, 1970. >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfTheWarrior1970 >> >> and of the 3rd part of the 1st edition of >> *Mythe et ?pop?e II. Types ?piques indo-europ?ens : un h?ros, un sorcier, >> un roi*, Paris : Gallimard (*Biblioth?que des sciences humaines*), 19711, >> 19772, 19864 : *The Destiny of a King*, Chicago UP, 1973. >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing1973 >> >> The translation of two other parts of the latter have been ed. by J. >> Puhvel, *The Stakes of the Warrior *[https://archive.org/details/G >> eorgesDumezilTheStakesOfTheWarrior], and *The Plight of a Sorcerer *[ >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilJaanPuhvelDavidWe >> eksThePlightOfASorcererUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1986], Berkeley, UCP, >> 1983 and 1986. There also exists also English translations of Dum?zil's >> *Mitra-Varuna *(Paris: Gallimard, 1940/48) by D. Coltman, New York : >> Zone Books, 1988 [https://archive.org/details/georges-dumezil-mitra-varuna >> - https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilMitraVarunaAnEssay >> OnTwoIndoEuropeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty1990 - >> https://archive.org/details/Mitra-varunaAnEssayOnTwoIndo-eur >> opeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty]; *Les dieux des Germains *(Paris : >> PUF, 1959) + 4 articles, dir. by E. Haugen, *Gods of the Ancient >> Northmen*, Berkeley, UCP, 1973 [https://archive.org/details/G >> eorgesDumezilGodsOfTheAncientNorthmenUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1973 - >> https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_DZIeNMgZhRwC]; *La religion romaine >> archa?que* (Paris : Payot, 1966) by Philipp Krapp, *Archaic Roman >> Religion*, 2 vols, Chicago UP, 1970 [https://archive.org/details/d >> umezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on-the- >> religion-of-the-etruscans-part-1 - https://archive.org/details/du >> mezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on-the- >> religion-of-the-etruscans-part-2 - https://archive.org/details/Ar >> chaicRomanReligion]; *Du mythe au roman* (Paris : PUF, 1970) by D. >> Coltman, *From Myth to Fiction*, Chicago UP, 1970; *Mythe et ?pop?e III* >> (Paris : Gallimard, 1973) ed. by U. Strutynski, *Camillus*, Berkeley, >> UCP, 1980 [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilCamillusAStudyOfI >> ndoEuropeanReligionAsRomanHistory1980]. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >> Le 30 nov. 2016 ? 08:32, Tejas Aralere a ?crit : >> >> Dear All, >> >> Does anyone have a PDF of George Dum?zil's "L'Id?ologie Tripartie des >> Indo-Europ?ens"? An english translation (if it exists) would be >> perfect, but even a copy in French would be appreciated. I just can't seem >> to find it anywhere. >> >> Thank you, >> Tejas Aralere >> tsaralere at umail.ucsb.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at gwu.edu Wed Nov 30 13:23:11 2016 From: beitel at gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 08:23:11 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Georges Dumezil's Tripartite Ideology text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also ltook the opportunity to rethink some Dumeziliana in "The Mahabharata and the Stories Some People Tell About It," in Exemplar: The Journal of South Asian Studies,' Part 1, Vol. 1 No 2 (2012), pp. 2-26 , and Part 2, Vol. 2, No. 1 (2013), pp. 1-13 (see especially pp. 3-4). On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Jonathan Silk wrote: > A propos this topic please permit me to quote from a review I published > long years ago on a volume of the collected papers of John Brough (IIJ 42: > 188-196): > > Despite the astonishingly broad range of his interests and competence, > Brough was not a comparativist, at least in the sense that that term is > frequently used today. In fact, he rather energetically, and sometimes even > rather sarcastically, critiqued a certain type of comparativism, especially > in his comments on Dumezil?s ideas on the ?Tripartite Ideology of the > IndoEuropeans.? Having, for example, offered an elaborate complex of > evidence which reduces to ashes Dumezil?s claim that the ?Tripartite > Ideology? is exclusively IndoEuropean, and nonBiblical, Brough wrote (p. > 199): ?We can, of course, dismiss the whole thing [that is, Brough?s > demonstration of the same patterns in Biblical myth] as a mere burlesque, a > caricature of Professor Dumezil?s methods: though I protest that I have > tried not to caricature, and have done my best to deal with the material in > the same manner as he has dealt with the IndoEuropean material. The reader > is free to judge whether or not my treatment is a burlesque.? Despite the > putative freedom Brough has given his reader, he ends his study with these > words: ?The experiment [carried out in the paper] also suggests that the > IndoEuropean ?tripartite ideology? could be due very largely to bias in the > selection of data combined with ?la nature des choses?. If it does not > prove this with the certainty of a mathematical demonstration, it does at > least prove that, up to the present, no very strong reason has been given > for thinking otherwise.? > > > Jonathan Silk > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Christophe Vielle < > christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > >> *L'id?ologie tripartie des Indo-Europ?ens*, Bruxelles : Latomus (*Collection >> Latomus* 31), 1958, >> is currently out of print (the series "Coll. Latomus" is now with Peeters >> publ.: http://www.peeters-leuven.be/search_serie_book.asp?nr=299 ). >> As far as I know, no English translation was made of this book. >> >> Alf Hiltebeitel made a translation of the 1st edition of >> *Heur et malheur du guerrier. Aspects mythiques de la fonction guerri?re >> chez les Indo-Europ?ens*, Paris : Flammarion, 19691, 19852 : *The >> Destiny of the Warrior*, Chicago UP, 1970. >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfTheWarrior1970 >> >> and of the 3rd part of the 1st edition of >> *Mythe et ?pop?e II. Types ?piques indo-europ?ens : un h?ros, un sorcier, >> un roi*, Paris : Gallimard (*Biblioth?que des sciences humaines*), 19711, >> 19772, 19864 : *The Destiny of a King*, Chicago UP, 1973. >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilTheDestinyOfAKing1973 >> >> The translation of two other parts of the latter have been ed. by J. >> Puhvel, *The Stakes of the Warrior *[https://archive.org/details/G >> eorgesDumezilTheStakesOfTheWarrior], and *The Plight of a Sorcerer *[ >> https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilJaanPuhvelDavidWe >> eksThePlightOfASorcererUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1986], Berkeley, UCP, >> 1983 and 1986. There also exists also English translations of Dum?zil's >> *Mitra-Varuna *(Paris: Gallimard, 1940/48) by D. Coltman, New York : >> Zone Books, 1988 [https://archive.org/details/georges-dumezil-mitra-varuna >> - https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilMitraVarunaAnEssay >> OnTwoIndoEuropeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty1990 - >> https://archive.org/details/Mitra-varunaAnEssayOnTwoIndo-eur >> opeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty]; *Les dieux des Germains *(Paris : >> PUF, 1959) + 4 articles, dir. by E. Haugen, *Gods of the Ancient >> Northmen*, Berkeley, UCP, 1973 [https://archive.org/details/G >> eorgesDumezilGodsOfTheAncientNorthmenUniversityOfCaliforniaPress1973 - >> https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_DZIeNMgZhRwC]; *La religion romaine >> archa?que* (Paris : Payot, 1966) by Philipp Krapp, *Archaic Roman >> Religion*, 2 vols, Chicago UP, 1970 [https://archive.org/details/d >> umezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on-the- >> religion-of-the-etruscans-part-1 - https://archive.org/details/du >> mezil-archaic-roman-religion-with-an-appendix-on-the- >> religion-of-the-etruscans-part-2 - https://archive.org/details/Ar >> chaicRomanReligion]; *Du mythe au roman* (Paris : PUF, 1970) by D. >> Coltman, *From Myth to Fiction*, Chicago UP, 1970; *Mythe et ?pop?e III* >> (Paris : Gallimard, 1973) ed. by U. Strutynski, *Camillus*, Berkeley, >> UCP, 1980 [https://archive.org/details/GeorgesDumezilCamillusAStudyOfI >> ndoEuropeanReligionAsRomanHistory1980]. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> Christophe Vielle >> >> Le 30 nov. 2016 ? 08:32, Tejas Aralere a ?crit : >> >> Dear All, >> >> Does anyone have a PDF of George Dum?zil's "L'Id?ologie Tripartie des >> Indo-Europ?ens"? An english translation (if it exists) would be >> perfect, but even a copy in French would be appreciated. I just can't seem >> to find it anywhere. >> >> Thank you, >> Tejas Aralere >> tsaralere at umail.ucsb.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> >> >> ??????????????????? >> Christophe Vielle >> Louvain-la-Neuve >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) >> > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > copies of my publications may be found at > http://www.buddhismandsocialjustice.com/silk_publications.html > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -- Alf Hiltebeitel Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences Department of Religion George Washington University 2106 G Street, NW Washington DC, 20052 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Wed Nov 30 13:28:47 2016 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 14:28:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Several names of geographical objects in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, A week ago I posted here a request concerning the formal Hindi, Marathi and Konkani names of several Indian Catholic Churches. I need these data - as they are to be included in the supplement to the "Urz?dowy wykaz polskich nazw geograficznych ?wiata" [*Official List of Polish Geographical Names of the World*], published in 2013; the (searchable) *.pdf at: http://ksng.gugik.gov.pl/pliki/wykaz_polskich_nazw_geograficznych.pdf The supplement is planned to include the names of the most important historical monuments, buildings, archaeological sites, etc. around the world - giving their exact geo coordinates, their names in the original languages, when needed, in their formally transliterated, Romanized versions (South Asia - apart from Maldives - acc. to ISO 15919), and in the Polish transcription. The names listed in my previous message, elude me, what I can find is only their popular, simplified English names: *Hindi *(in Devanagari)* names of: * Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health (near Nagapppatinam) San Thome Basilica (Chennai) St. Paul's Cathedral (Kolkata) St.Thomas Kathedral(Mumbai) St. Francis Church (Cochin) St. Thomas Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (Malayattur by Ernakulam) Chennakesava Temple (Belur) *Marathi *(in Devanagari)* name of:* Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) *Konkani (in *Devanagari)* name of:* Basilica of Bom Jesus (Goa) *Urdu name of:* Iron Pillar (Delhi) Now, since so far there have been no responses to my request, I am tempted to think of three possible reasons for the List's silence. Let me share them. First, sort of paranoic. I, Artur Karp - personally, as a retired lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali, with *no recognized/recognizable diploma*, do not deserve the List members' attention Second, sort of paranoic, too. The institution I used to work for for more than forty years, the *University of Warsaw, Poland*, does not deserve the List members' attention. Third, sort of unbelievable. The indologists would not wish to be involved in projects even superficially related to *Christianity in India*. Whatever, and whichever. I am going to find the address of some Indian Catholic Church administration center and try to get the needed information from them. Greetings from already snow covered Warszawa, Artur Karp (em.) Katedra Azji Po?udniowej Instytut Orientalistyczny Uniwersytet Warszawski Warszawa Polska -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:44:44 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 12:44:44 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] HarfBuzz in LibreOffice Message-ID: In the pre-release version of LibreOffice 5.3, we see HarfBuzz arriving as the standard library for the rendering of complex texts (like Devanagari). Good news. - https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/5.3#Text_Layout_Engine ?Thanks to Akash Jain and Khaled Hosny (who is also deeply involved in supporting XeTeX)?. ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:51:10 2016 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 20:51:10 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fwd:_ENJEUX_DE_LA_PHILOLOGIE_INDIENNE_:_traditions,_=C3=A9ditions,_traductions/transferts_ISSUES_IN_INDIAN_PHILOLOGY:_Traditions,_Editions,_Translations/Transfers_Paris,_Coll=C3=A8ge_de_France,_5-7_d=C3=A9cembre_2016?= Message-ID: In response to several questions, for more information on this conference organised by Lyne Bansat-Boudon, Silvia D?Intino, and Jean-No?l Robert see: www.hesam.eu/labexhastec/?p=4764 https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/jean-noel-robert/p466440875667752_content.htm ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jan E.M. Houben Date: 2016-11-30 10:33 GMT+01:00 Subject: ENJEUX DE LA PHILOLOGIE INDIENNE : traditions, ?ditions, traductions/transferts ISSUES IN INDIAN PHILOLOGY: Traditions, Editions, Translations/Transfers Paris, Coll?ge de France, 5-7 d?cembre 2016 To: "indology at list.indology.info" ENJEUX DE LA PHILOLOGIE INDIENNE : traditions, ?ditions, traductions/transferts ISSUES IN INDIAN PHILOLOGY: Traditions, Editions, Translations/Transfers Paris, Coll?ge de France, 5-7 d?cembre 2016 Conf?rence inaugurale : lundi 5 d?cembre ? 17h00, salle 2 Organisation : Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE, Mondes iranien et indien), Silvia D?Intino (CNRS, ANHIMA), Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France, CRCAO) LUNDI 5 d?cembre 2016 17h00 Ouverture du colloque Conf?rence inaugurale Sheldon Pollock (Columbia University) ? "Indian Philology": Edition, Interpretation, and Difference ? MARDI 6 d?cembre 2016 Matin?e : ?tudes v?diques et p??in?ennes Pr?sident de s?ance : Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France) 9h15 Charles Malamoud (EPHE) ? Le cercle des saisons (?tuma??ala). Note sur le premier prap??haka du Taittir?ya ?ra?yaka ? 9h45 Silvia D?Intino (CNRS) ? Lire le ?gveda avant S?ya?a ? 10h15 Cezary Galewicz (Jagiellonian University, Cracovie) ? The R?japur Manuscript of Bhattoji?s Vedabh??yas?ra ? Discutant : Christian Jacob (EHESS) Pause 11h15 : Edwin Gerow (Reed College, Portland) ? Les acceptions de karman et la tradition grammaticale sanskrite ? 11h45 : Madhav Deshpande (University of Michigan) ? Re-Viewing the Tradition: Language, Grammar and History ? 12h15 : Maria-Piera Candotti (Universit? de Lausanne) ? Le r?le des commentaires dans la transmission et la construction d?un texte et leur repr?sentation dans le savoir contemporain. Exemples et r?flexions ? partir des commentaires de l??cole vy?karana ? Discutant : Jan Houben (EPHE) Apr?s-midi : ?pop?es, traditions savantes Pr?sident de s?ance : David Shulman (Hebrew University, J?rusalem) 14h00 : John Brockington (Oxford University) ? Religion and Recensions, Scripts and Manuscripts: The Textual History of the R?m?ya?a and Mah?bh?rata ? 14h30 : Claudine Le Blanc (Paris 3) ? Philologie de l??pop?e orale ? 15h00 : Naveen Kanalu (UCLA) ? Philological Conditions for Pampa?s Vikram?rjunavijayam, the Kannada Earlier Extant Ka?vya, and the Problem of a Literary History for Old Kannada ? Discutant : Pierre Judet de La Combe (EHESS) 16h00 : Carl Ernst (University of North Carolina) ? Disentangling the Different Persian Translations of The Pool of Nectar (Am?taku??a) ? 16h30 : Fabrizio Speziale (Paris 3) ? ?il? or do?a? Translation and Interpretation of Ayurvedic Theory of Trido?a in Early-Modern Persian Texts ? Discutant : Francis Zimmermann (EHESS) MERCREDI 7 d?cembre 2016 Matin?e : Philologie/philosophie Pr?sident de s?ance : Philippe Hoffmann (EPHE) 9h15 : Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE) ? Enjeux sp?culatifs de la philologie en contexte indien. Ex?g?se et fabrique du texte dans les Spandak?rik? et le Nir?aya ? 9h45 : Eli Franco (Leipzig University) ? Yam?ri and the Order of Chapters in the Pram??av?rttika ? 10h15 : Vincent Eltschinger (EPHE) ? Entre autorit? textuelle et autorit? religieuse : le Bouddha au prisme de l?ex?g?se bouddhique ? Discutant : Matthew Kapstein (EPHE) Pause 11h15 : Judit T?rzs?k (Lille 3) ? Abhinavagupta on the Epic: Some Remarks on the G?t?rthasa?graha and its m?la ? 11h45 : Isabelle Rati? (Paris 3) ? Pour une philologie indienne des marges : le cas des manuscrits cachemiriens ? Discutant : J?rgen Hanneder (Marburg University) Apr?s-midi : Mod?les culturels : ?crire, traduire, transposer Pr?sidente de s?ance : Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE) 14h00 : Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France) ? Deux traducteurs sur la Route de la Soie. Traduction et r??criture du sanskrit en chinois ? 14h30 : Matthew Kapstein (EPHE) ? Other People?s Philology: Tibetan Engagements with Sanskrit during the 15th ? 18th Centuries ? 15h00 : J?rgen Hanneder (Marburg University) th ? The Indian Inculturation of European Textual Criticism ? Discutant : Eli Franco (Leipzig University) Pause 16h00 : David Shulman (Hebrew University, J?rusalem) ? A South Indian Canon: Visible, Audible, Elastic ? 16h30 : Benedetta Zaccarello (CNRS) ? ?crire l?impensable : sur les carnets abstraits de Aurobindo Ghose et Paul Val?ry ? Discutant : Claudio Galderisi (Universit? de Poitiers) 17h30 : Table ronde Comit? scientifique Lyne Bansat-Boudon (EPHE), Silvia D?Intino (CNRS) Philippe Hoffmann (EPHE), Charles Malamoud (EPHE) Jean-No?l Robert (Coll?ge de France) Organisation Lyne Bansat-Boudon, Silvia D?Intino, Jean-No?l Robert *Jan E.M. HOUBEN* Directeur d??tudes Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite *?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes* *Sciences historiques et philologiques * 54, rue Saint-Jacques CS 20525 ? 75005 Paris johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben www.ephe.fr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 23:11:51 2016 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 16 16:11:51 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Downloading etexts from TITUS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't been in touch with TITUS for many years, but in the past the idea was that if you contributed an e-text to the repository you gained the right to download. Dominik ? -- Professor Dominik Wujastyk ?,? Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity ?,? Department of History and Classics ?,? University of Alberta, Canada ?.? South Asia at the U of A: ?sas.ualberta.ca? ?? On 11 November 2016 at 08:10, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > The TITUS database http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm > \has many sanskrit e-texts not available elsewhere. But many of the > e-texts on TITUS are marked "restricted download". > > Does anyone know what the requirements are to get permission to download > these e-texts. > > Many thanks, > Harry Sjpier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: