[INDOLOGY] J?ti as Caste in Ny?ya?

Thu Jun 16 19:18:34 UTC 2016

Thanks to Professor Paturi for touching on the concept of “gotva.” 

May I ask a naive question: What is the basic semantics of the word “gotva?” I’m familiar with “gotra.”

Thanks and regards,
rajam


> On Jun 16, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Correction:
> I typed:
> 3. Those mentioned by Jayanta are not saying BraahmaNatva etc. are not like gotva etc. They are saying exactly the opposite. They are saying 'because braahmanatva etc. are not like gotva etc. the validity of what all Brahmins have in common can be verified / known only through a different source of knowledge than the one that can establish what all cows have in common. 
> 
> I wanted to say:
> 
> 3. Those mentioned by Jayanta are not saying BraahmaNatva etc. are like gotva etc. They are saying exactly the opposite. They are saying 'because braahmanatva etc. are not like gotva etc. the validity of what all Brahmins have in common can be verified / known only through a different source of knowledge than the one that can establish what all cows have in common.     
> 
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 12:19 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com <mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 1. While the discussion of Jayanta is mentioned to be on Varnas, the title of the post /thread has 'caste' in it. Since it is now well established that these two are two different categories /concepts, we might need to be careful about this distinction.
> 
> 2. For Nyaya, gotva is as much a jaati as  ghaTatva is jaati. ghaTatvajaati is as much empirically observable and directly perceivable as
> gotvajaati.   
> 
> 3. Those mentioned by Jayanta are not saying BraahmaNatva etc. are not like gotva etc. They are saying exactly the opposite. They are saying 'because braahmanatva etc. are not like gotva etc. the validity of what all Brahmins have in common can be verified / known only through a different source of knowledge than the one that can establish what all cows have in common.   
> 
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Johannes Bronkhorst <johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch <mailto:johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch>> wrote:
> Vincent Eltschinger’s « Caste » et philosophie bouddhique (Vienna 2000) seems relevant in this connection. An English version of this book is also available:
> 
> Caste and Buddhist Philosophy: Continuity of Some Buddhist Arguments Against the Realist Interpretation of Social Denominations (Motilal Banarsidass 2012)
> 
> Johannes
> 
>> On 16 juin 2016, at 18:37, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Many thanks to the originator of this thread!
>> 
>> Right now, I just want to register the fact that I’m very much interested in this topic.
>> 
>> Last year (May 2015), I had a publication (in Tamil) about references to, or a lack there of, “jāti” and “caste” (as we understand it today) in Old Tamil literature/grammar, also known as Sangam literature/grammar.
>> 
>> I don’t know how many of you are aware of the fact that the English word “caste” has its origin in the Portuguese word “casta,” which was first recorded in Arte da Lingua Malabar written by Fr. Henrique Henriques in the mid-16th century. 
>> 
>> If one wants to dig deep into the understanding of the terms such as “jāti” and “caste” … one has to have a minimal understanding of the origins of the Western contact with India, which happened in the early 16-th century through Portuguese arrival in South India.
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> V.S.Rajam
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com <mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Don,
>>> 
>>> This interests me a lot, and I'd be grateful to read what you might write about it in future.  It's on my back-burner, but I've long wondered whether Sanskritic narratives about jati and varna can be thought about in ways similar to eighteenth and nineteenth century European narratives about races and species.  Were people of different varnas formally considered to be of different "species?"   It's a bit shocking to think in these terms, but I've been wondering about it.  If you ever put flesh on these bones, one way or another, or can point me to existing discussions on this, I'd be really interested.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Dominik
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>>> Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>>> University of Alberta, Canada
>>> 
>>> On 16 June 2016 at 08:53, Donald R Davis <drdj at austin.utexas.edu <mailto:drdj at austin.utexas.edu>> wrote:
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>> 
>>> I would be grateful for additional references to an argument mentioned in Jayanta Bhatta’s Āgamaḍambara 4.143-4 (in Dezso’s edition in the Clay series).  The question is whether the jāti of Brahmins, etc. is like the jāti of cow-ness, etc. in being empirically observable or directly perceivable.  Jayanta refers to those who say that verbal/textual testimony alone (śabdamātreṇa) establishes the four-varṇa system.  This prefigures an argument made in Vijñāneśvara’s Mitākṣarā (on Yaj 1.90) where the same distinction is drawn to refute an objection.
>>> 
>>> I assumed Jayanta would have made a similar argument in his Nyāyamañjarī, but I have not been able to locate it (probably because I barely know the Nyāya literature).  If anyone could point me toward other instances of this issue, whether in original sources or contemporary research, I’d appreciate it.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Don Davis
>>> Dept of Asian Studies
>>> University of Texas at Austin
>>> 
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> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>  
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>  
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>  
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>  
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>  
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>  
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>  
>  
>  


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