[INDOLOGY] External Origin of Dravidian

Nagaraj Paturi nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
Sun Jan 24 05:44:18 UTC 2016


>In Telugu, you may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu
'neighbour, neighbourhood' etc. which can possibly be argued as recent
borrowings from Kannada or Tamil.

---- That argument can be made provided those words are found in Kannada
and/or Tamil.

There are a few other such instances where a certain root may not be found
in its basic verb root form in Telugu may be found in its secondary verb
root forms or other such derivatives forms as nominalizations. One such is
paṇ = to do. In Telugu it is found in its causative form panucu/paṁcu,
nominalized
form pani but not in its basic verb form as in Tamil.
>
The words *ṟē**vu* (ఱేవు), *ṟē**vaḍu* (ఱేవడు), *ṟē**vadi* (ఱేవది) etc. are
not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
tap). They
are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *iṯ-/iṟ- 'to descend', 'to go beyond' *iṟaṅku*
(*iṟaṅki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark; *iṟaṅkal* place
of descent, of debarkation etc.

The usages of రేవు rēvu are more with ర్ than with ఱ్ . Is not "*iṯ-/iṟ-
'to descend', 'to go beyond' *iṟaṅku* (*iṟaṅki*-) to descend, alight, fall
(as rain), disembark; *iṟaṅkal* place of descent, of debarkation etc." all
from the tracing to Tamil ? Do we have *iṯ-/iṟ- 'to descend', 'to go
beyond' *iṟaṅku* (*iṟaṅki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain), disembark;
*iṟaṅkal* place of descent, of debarkation etc in Telugu? ( రేవడి rēvaḍi is
as in renṭiki ceḍḍa rēvaḍi )
> But Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and
features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language
under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian.

------ I thought each reconstructions were done meticulously case by case
choosing the most plausible root of phonetic change from among those
required to account for all the available forms. I thought, otherwise,
identifying any non-Tamil language as retaining the Protodravidian
features/elements would not have been possible. But if it can be proved
that 'Dravidian linguists have been wrongly reconstructing words and
features found only in South Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language
under the assumption that Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian' , it
will be a path-breaking critique of the current methods of historical
linguistics. Now that the likes of Prof. Hans Henrich Hock started to extend
the argument to IE studies too, it may pave way for a revamp of the
existing methods of historical linguistics. Any such change is certainly
welcome.

> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
of the Dravidian languages.

----- I think you are aware that such proposals are as old as the
beginnings of Dravidian linguistics, though no systematic study ever took
off. With you there seems to be promise of such a work in near future.

> Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the most archaic form of
Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.

------ I agree that cleaning the slate and starting out from the scratch is
required. But I don't think pre-Dravidian substrata issue need not be based
on the Tamil issue. Des'ya components of various members of Dravidian
family that can not be explained by the Dravidian model are what lead to
pre-Dravidian substrata.

Best wishes,

Nagaraj



On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
wrote:

> Dear Suresh (and others in this thread),
>
> Whether or not we accept an “external” origin of Dravidian (i.e., more
> recent than the peopling of Eurasia), you are certainly correct in
> insisting that we need to consider the evidence of *all* the Dravidian
> languages; privileging Tamil (or select other South Dravidian languages) is
> methodologically questionable. True, being attested so early, Tamil offers
> a window on a considerably earlier stage than what we find in the other
> literary languages (and of course, much earlier than the “tribal” languages
> which are attested only since the 19th century). But as you pointed out in
> your earlier message, other languages preserve archaic features too.
> Neglecting these can lead to questionable reconstructions.
>
> There is a similar situation in Modern Indo-Aryan, where we have
> relatively early attestations in the literary languages, but no comparable
> ones for the “tribal” languages of the Northwest; and yet, it is these
> northwestern languages that preserve much more of the complex consonant
> combinations of Old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) than any of the literary ones
> (even Gujarati, Sindhi, Kashmiri can’t compete, although these at least
> preserve the C + r clusters). (If we reconstruct on the basis of literary
> (early) Modern Indo-Aryan, we won’t reach something close to the ancestral
> Old Indo-Aryan but only something close to Apabhraṁśa.) See the discussion
> between Pattanayak (1966), Katre (1968), Sen (1973), and Miranda (1978).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hans
>
>
> On 23 Jan 2016, at 09:26, Suresh Kolichala <suresh.kolichala at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Nagaraj gaaru,
>
> I hope you agree that the verb form ir- 'to be' *[DEDR 480]* either as
> copula or independent verb cannot be attested in Telugu. This verb, so
> important in South Dravidian, is remarkably absent in Central and North
> Dravidian languages, and in many of South-Central languages. In Telugu, you
> may find noun forms such as iravu 'place', irugu 'neighbour, neighbourhood'
> etc. which can possibly be argued as recent borrowings from Kannada or
> Tamil.
>
> The words *ṟē**vu* (ఱేవు), *ṟē**vaḍu* (ఱేవడు), *ṟē**vadi* (ఱేవది) etc.
> are not derived from  'iravu' (<ir-) (note the alveolar trill, instead of
> tap). They are related to *[DEDR 516]*  *iṯ-/iṟ- 'to descend', 'to go
> beyond' *iṟaṅku* (*iṟaṅki*-) to descend, alight, fall (as rain),
> disembark; *iṟaṅkal* place of descent, of debarkation etc.
>
> If you believe in my proposed theory of external origin of Dravidian, then
> the whole question of what constitutes Proto-Dravidian becomes problematic.
>  Under the usual historical linguistic principles, words and features
> found only in one branch (South Dravidian, in this case) do not provide
> evidence for parent language (Proto-Dravidian). But Dravidian linguists
> have been wrongly reconstructing words and features found only in South
> Dravidian (esp. Tamil) to the parent language under the assumption that
> Tamil represents the archaic form of Dravidian. It is a classic catch-22
> situation.
>
> I believe there is an urgent need to reevaluate the Dravidian languages
> considering the possibility of pre-Dravidian substrata in various branches
> of the Dravidian languages. Suspending the belief that Tamil represents the
> most archaic form of Dravidian would be a starting point in this endeavour.
>
> Regards,
> Suresh.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for going back to a week old post by Mr Suresh Kolichala
>>
>> > The copula verb man- 'to be' is replaced by ir- 'to be' in the South
>> Dravidian languages. As you know, ir- 'to be' is not found in
>> South-Central, Central and North Dravidian languages. (ir- most likely a
>> local verb for 'to be')
>>
>> It is true that 'ir-' is not the copula verb in south-central. In Telugu,
>> the major language of the south-central, the copula verb is 'agu' (<ak) =
>> to be as/ to become. unD =to be which is found in Malayalam in copula
>> situations is found in Telugu as an independent 'to be'  verb in
>> non-equational VP sentences.
>>
>> >(ir- most likely a local verb for 'to be')
>>
>> gives me the impression that you consider that the root 'ir-' is not
>> found in south-central. But the word iravu ( as in chImalu peTTina puTTalu
>> paamulakiravaina yaTlu- sumatIs'atakamu ) is a nominalization of the verb
>> root 'ir-' only. The words rEvu , rEvaDu/ rEvaDi etc. form from 'iravu'
>> (<ir-) through metathesis.
>>
>> Another point is,is it not a good idea to count the number of
>> Proto-Dravidian features retained by Tamil and the other Dravidian members
>> to decide which is the 'most conservative among Dravidian languages' ? ( I
>> do not think that there was any claim that all the Proto-Dravidian features
>> are retained by Tamil only and no other Dravidian language retained
>> Protodravidian features.)
>>
>> -N
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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